From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 1 09:41:43 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 13-century monument demolished by builders in Delhi Message-ID: <191751.15159.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> 13th-century monument razed 1 Nov 2008, 0040 hrs IST, Richi Verma, TNN NEW DELHI: A priceless relic of Delhi's medieval past has fallen to the greed of builders. Parts of a 13th century monument, built by Ghiyasuddin Balban, that once gave shelter to Arab traveller Ibn Batuta in the 14th century, have been demolished by private builders to make way for a multi-storey complex. The 1245 AD structure, called Lal Mahal or Kushaki Lal, is located in Nizamuddin and was declared a heritage structure by the government and civic agencies. It was built by the Slave Dynasty ruler during the reign of Sultan Nasiruddin Mahmud Shah, before Balban ascended the throne. On Friday, this structure was found partially demolished. Its prominent chhatris and red sandstone structure is said to have been pulled down. Residents said the demolition started late Thursday night. When alerted, Archaeological Survey of India filed an FIR with Nizamuddin police station on Friday. Experts wonder how the builder had the gumption to demolish the structure without the complicity of local authorities. MCD officials arrived at the site late in the evening. They said they didn't know who was the builder, and added they too have filed a police complaint. The local police, though, feigned ignorance about the FIR and complaint. DCP Ajay Chaudhary, however, acknowledged receipt of a complaint from MCD. Placed in category A in terms of heritage value by Intach Delhi Chapter, the structure has also been prominently mentioned in the list of heritage buildings by both MCD and Delhi government's state department of archaeology. The latter had recently announced a grand plan to bring Lal Mahal and many other unprotected monuments into its purview and give them a facelift. It's learnt the 'tehkhana' (basement) on which the structure stood still survives, although sources said the remaining portions of the structure too were in danger if the building wasn't acquired by the government at the earliest. The extent of the damage could not be properly assessed as the builders responsible for the demolition have erected huge barricades around the building, blocking all view of the structure. ASI Delhi Circle chief, Dr K K Mohammed, said: "We have lodged an FIR against the demolition at the Nizamuddin police station." No permission was taken from us: ASI "The building is less than 20 metres away from Bara Khamba, which is an ASI protected monument and no permission was taken from us for any kind of construction/demolition activity here under the 100-meter prohibited zone rule," said ASI Delhi Circle chief, Dr K K Mohammed. Under law, no building activity can take place within 100 metres of a monument protected by ASI. "Under the DMC Act, no alteration or demolition can take place in any existing structure without seeking prior approval of MCD. We have asked the police to not allow any further activity here. On Saturday, we will serve a showcause notice and seal the premises if necessary," said city zone deputy commissioner Vijay Singh. For years, access to the structure has not been permitted as it falls within a private residence. This, sources said, has led to the monument falling into a state of neglect and decay. Agitated conservation architects and heritage experts insisted that the Lal Mahal had to be salvaged at all costs. "Considering it's one of the oldest structures in the city, it should have been under the umbrella of ASI or the state government," said a conservationist. Senior ASI officials admitted that the mahal should have been under central protection. "The building is historically very important. It is around 800 years old and one of the relics of the Delhi Sultanate era. It must have been left out many years ago when the Ministry of Culture had notified many monuments as protected. If pressure builds up over this, the structure could be notified as a protected building," said an ASI official. richi.verma at timesgroup.com From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 11:26:48 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:26:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Resolutions and Declaration of Adivasi Sangama 2008 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <35f96d470810312255s71881f27q78f348e69b8864f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470810312255s71881f27q78f348e69b8864f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470810312256h4bae0c2enf640121e08a065e0@mail.gmail.com> http://adivasisangama.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/resolutions-and-declaration/ ADIVASI SANGAMA 2008 October 30th -31st 2008, Kushalnagar, Kodagu, Karnatak, India. Resolutions and Declaration ==================== RESOLUTION 1 On Forest Rights Act 2006 The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006 and its Rules have come into force on 1 January 2008 requires that Gram Sabhas of Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dweller villages assemble to constitute their Forest Rights Committee under Section 6(1), call for claims, verify them and determine their forest rights as under Section 3 and declare 'Community Forest Reserve' as defined in Section 2(a). We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 resolve that - All hamlets of Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers hold a meeting of the Gram Sabha, constitute their Forest Rights Committee, define the boundary of their community forest resource, call for individual and community claims to forest rights under The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006 and pass a resolution defining the nature and extent of the rights claimed for and intimate the same to the Gram Panchayat, Sub Divisional Committee, and State Level Monitoring Committee of The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006. We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 further resolve that - In the interim the hamlet level Gram Sabhas in all such hamlets shall commence and complete the process of determining and declaring the 'Community Forest Reserve' and resolve to conserve, protect and sustainably utilize the resources for livelihood purpose. RESOLUTION 2 On Notification of Critical Tiger Habitats We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 further resolve – To declare to all concerned that the Notification dated 20.12.2007 (No.FEE 2999 FWL 2007) declaring Nagarhole National Park (643.45 sq kms) and Bandipur National Park (872.24 sq kms) in Mysore and Kodagu districts, Dandeli Wildlife Sanctuary (475.018 sq kms) and Anshi National Park (339.866 sq kms) in Uttara Kannada District and Bhadra Tiger Reserve (492.46 sq kms) in Chikmaglur and Shimoga district – a total of 2,822.934 sq kms by the Forest, Ecology and Environment Department of the Government of Karnataka under Section 38V(i) of The Wildlife Protection Act 1972 as amended in 2006 is illegal as they are violative of both the letter and spirit of the (a) The Wildlife Protection Act 1972 as amended in 2006 (WLPA) and (b) The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006 as under: 1. The Expert Committee under 38V(4) i of the WLPA 2006 is to determine the boundaries of the critical tiger habitat, areas that are required to be kept as inviolate for the purposes of tiger conservation, without affecting the rights of the Scheduled Tribes or such other forest dwellers and consult the local inhabitants including public hearings. No such consultation has been made. 2. 38V(5) (i) of WLPA 2006 stipulates that the process of recognition and determination of rights and acquisition of land or forest rights of the Scheduled Tribes and other forest dwellers should have been completed in the said areas prior to declaration of the area as CTH. This has not even been initiated and therefore violating both WLPA 2006 and FRA 2006. 3. 38V(5) (ii) and (iii) of WLPA 2006 stipulates that the consent of the Scheduled Tribes and other forest dwellers in the area along with consultation with an ecological and social scientist is required to decide that the activities of the STs and other forest dwellers or the impact of their presence upon wild animals is sufficient to cause irreversible damage and threaten the existence of tigers and their habitat and that other reasonable options of co-existence are not available. This too has not been observed. 4. Resolution of the Gram Sabhas concerned that recognition and vesting of rights in the affected area is complete is mandated in 4(vi) and 2(a) of the "Guidelines to notify critical wildlife habitats" of MoEF . No such consent has been obtained. 5. No resettlement or alternative package including the facilities and land allocation at the resettlement location, for providing for livelihood for the affected individuals and communities fulfilling the requirements given in the National Relief and Rehabilitation Policy and the head wise budget allocation, the time line for the completion of the resettlement or alternative package nor the informed consent of the Gram Sabhas concerned, and of the persons affected, to the resettlement programme has been obtained as required under 38V(5) (iv), (v) and (vi) of WLPA 2006 in the CTH. 6. Further, the said notification is in total violation of The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006 in its entirety. We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 further resolve that – (a) This notification be withdrawn forthwith as any further implementation of Critical Tiger Habitats in the state by any officials is a criminal offense under Sec. 7 of The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006; (b) All affected villages shall pass a resolution declaring that this notification [dated 20.12.2007 (No.FEE 2999 FWL 2007)] as illegal and intimate the Gram Panchayat, District Collector, State Level Monitoring Committee of The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006 and the National Tiger Conservation Authority, New Delhi; and (c) All affected Gram Panchayats shall pass a resolution declaring that this notification [dated 20.12.2007 (No.FEE 2999 FWL 2007)] as illegal and inform the District Collector, State Level Monitoring Committee of The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006 and the National Tiger Conservation Authority, New Delhi. RESOLUTION 3 - On Declaration of Schedule Areas The Provisions of the Vth Schedule were amended in 1976 to allow the President to extend the areas covered by the provisions of the Vth Schedule. State Governments were called upon to submit their proposals to the President. However, for the past 32 years, the state governments of Karnataka, Kerala and Tamilnadu continue to deny the adivasis of their state the protection of this central Constitutional provision envisaged under Article 244, the extension of the provisions of PESA and the special provisions of The Scheduled Tribes & Other Traditional Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Rights) Act 2006, as they have not sent their proposals for the past 32 years. The state governments also continue to disregard the demands of the adivasi people to the constitutional protection of the Vth Schedule despite their demands for more than a decade. We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 further resolve– To call upon the state governments of Karnataka, Kerala and Tamilnadu to send their proposals to cover all adivasi hamlets under the provisions of the Vth Schedule, extend the provisions of PESA 1996 to thes villages, declare the boundaries of these hamlets for notification as Scheduled Area and guarantee the adivasi people their right to govern themselves and their homelands democratically with equity and justice as provided under the Article 244 and PESA 1996 from 1 January 2009. RESOLUTION 4 – Condemn and Oppose the Mischevious Designs of the State Government to declare the Greater Tala Kaveri Area Project. The adivasis assembled in the Sangamma 2008 condemn the nefarious designs of the state government to declare the Greater Tala Kaveri Area Project, appropriate the homelands of the adivasi people and the livelihoods of other forest dwellers residing in these areas for generations and to hand them over in a platter to real estate developers, tourist resort developers, other land sharks and the urban and rural elite, while destroying the present and future of the adivasi people and other traditional forest dwellers. We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 further resolve – To oppose this nefarious design of the state government and fight it tooth and nail till the project is withdrawn. RESOLUTION - 5 We, the delegates to the Adivasi Sangamma 2008 further resolve– To send the resolution and declaration to our respective Governors of the respective States and to the Hon'ble President of India. Signed by all the participants of Adivasi Sangama 2008. From citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 08:00:22 2008 From: citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com (Citizens' Initiative) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:00:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Citizens' Initiative's report on Singur (part 1) Message-ID: <63c17b480810311930n33fdae9fx8a2b5564e81fa7b2@mail.gmail.com> OUR EXPERIENCES IN SINGUR (FEBRUARY – SEPTEMBER 2008) BY THE CITIZENS' INITIATIVE, KOLKATA. CONTENTS INTRODUCTION 1. Citizens' Initiative 3 2. Political background of Singur since 2006 5 3. Profile of some villages 7 4. Special Economic Zone (SEZ) 8 EXTRACTS FROM OUR SINGUR NOTEBOOKS 9 TESTIMONIES OF THE PEOPLE OF SINGUR 15 ENDEMIC PROBLEMS 1. Health 27 2. Education 28 3. Employment 28 ANALYSIS 1. The TMC's role 29 2. The Tata Motors plant 31 RECOMMENDATIONS 32 CONCLUSION 34 APPENDIX Singur timeline 39 OUR EXPERIENCES IN SINGUR (FEBRUARY – SEPTEMBER 2008) BY THE CITIZENS' INITIATIVE, KOLKATA. The Citizens' Initiative About Us: We at the Citizens' Initiative are trying to organise a continuing open discussion on the paradigms of development and the relationship, in this context, between politics and ethics. These issues, we feel, are extremely important given the kind of state-sponsored violence that people are facing all over India and particularly in West Bengal. The group of students, researchers, and teachers that comprise the CI started out in February 2007 to debate and question the cost of development and the growing schism between ethics and contemporary political culture. Questions have also begun to arise on the naive equation of the 'partisan' with the 'political', and the brushing aside of any non-partisan civil political action as not just irrelevant, but, as in some circles it is fashionable to say, 'anti-political.' The role of civil society in a democracy is a subject of critical re-examination now, and it is this disregard for non-partisan opinion and the consequences of it that have led us to discuss and take more concrete actions. We launched this initiative with a one-day seminar on 16th February 2008 on 'Development and Ethics', where the speakers were Dr. Dilip Simeon and Dr. Aseem Shrivastava. Dr Simeon spoke on 'Ethics and Contemporary Political Culture', and Dr Shrivastava's talk was titled 'SEZ and the Cost of Development'. Our next event was a workshop on 5th April 2008 on the legal possibilities available to a common citizen for redress of wrongs. Mr Sabir Ahamed of the Calcutta Samaritans spoke on the Right to Information Act and Mr Sujato Bhadra of Association for Protection of Democratic Rights spoke on Public Interest Litigations. We visited Singur nine times between February 2008 and September 2008. In this period, we have carried relief – in the form of clothes, rice and pulses – to Dobandi in Singur (in March 2008), and organised a medical camp there (on 18th May 2008 and 27th July 2008) with the help of the Centre for Care of Torture Victims. But neither of these efforts reflects our primary objectives. Our most ardent wish is to induce long-term reflection on models – and ethics – of development, and to contribute to reconstructive thought and efforts in the areas already adversely affected by the present political take on development. To this end, we have photographed, extensively, life in Singur and how it has been affected by the fencing-off of the land for the Tata Motors factory. Very few people in Kolkata have any idea of what Singur looks like, and press photographs can perhaps tell only a minuscule portion of the story. Our photographs are aimed at covering this invisible distance between the affected village and the urban centre – to put it simply, to show what development looks like in reality. We organised the event Under Development: Singur at Seagull Arts and Media Resource Centre from 27th June to 2nd July 2008. The event comprised a photo exhibition of our photos from Singur, a film festival on development and a panel discussion 'on representation of development and displacement' where the speakers were Samik Bandyopadhyay, Kavita Punjabi and Rajarshi Dasgupta. The discussion was moderated by Paromita Chakravarti. In July, we succeeded in taking a slideshow of our photographs to Singur. Our aim, well-fulfilled, was to enable the people of Singur to see how they were being represented by us. In accordance with out current plans, we wish to visit schools in and around Kolkata and sensitize students about development in West Bengal and India and about the fall-out of such modes of development in places like Singur. Importantly, we intend to take the Photo Exhibition (even as it grows over time, or changes over our further visits to Singur) to other places in India, and to initiate dialogue there about Singur, development, land, political violence, etc. However, we should stress that we have not been to Singur as unaffected photographers who are there to snatch images and leave. We plan to introduce alternative means of livelihood for people who have for generations been based in agriculture. Unhappily, the government's promises that alternative training and employment shall be the norm rather than the exception among all peoples displaced from land and/or livelihood have been resoundingly empty. Even in our limited ways, we hope that we shall, in a few months, be able to organise training workshops in Singur on certain alternative means of livelihood. We have two blogs: http://development-dialogues.blogspot.com and http://citizensinitiativecal.blogspot.com. We can be contacted at citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Political background of Singur since 2006 As soon as the seventh CPI (M)-led Left Front government was sworn in on 18th May 2006, CM Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee lost no time in announcing an ambitious initiative as part of the larger drive to 'industrialise' the state. Accompanied by Ratan Tata and a team of top executives, he announced a small-car factory to be set up by Tata Motors in Singur, Hooghly. While Ratan Tata complimented the state on its investor-friendliness, reactions on the ground at Singur were hostile – with repeated protests by villagers when different concerned people, such as a team from Tata Motors, visited the area. While traditionally the area had been a CPI (M)-dominated one, villagers gathered under a newly formed platform 'Krishi Jomi Rokkha Committee' ('Save Farmland Committee'). On 30th May, they protested in front of the state commerce and industries minister Nirupam Sen. On 1st June, they assembled in the thousands for another protest in front of the Singur Block Development Officer. However, on 20th July the state went ahead with a notice for land acquisition under the colonial-era Land Acquisition Act, for a total of 997.11 acres of land. Massive protests followed in August and September, with about 5000 people turning up for protests outside the Gopalnagar Gram Panchayat and the Singur Block Development Office. The move to acquire land was also challenged in the Kolkata High Court (this was to be later dismissed in 2008). Yet compensation cheques for land-losers began to be handed out on 25th September, with a simultaneous protest by about 10,000 villagers in which chief of the opposition party, the Trinamul Congress (henceforth TMC), Mamata Banerjee, also took part. Section 144 of the Criminal Procedure Code was imposed, banning the assembly of more than 5 persons, and soon on 26th September the protests saw the first death, that of a 24-year old man. Around this time, the issue saw greater mainstream political mobilisation with the TMC and some supporting parties calling a 12-hour Bengal strike on 9th October; well-known social activist Medha Patkar also joined the fray and addressed a rally on 27th October at Bajemelia, Singur. Meanwhile, there were ground reports of CPI (M) cadres allegedly destroying water pumps to render arable lands unsuitable for farming. This was to set the tone for future acts of repression. While November 2006 saw two major rallies – one on the 17th when Mamata Banerjee of TMC commenced a three-day march to Singur, the other on 19th at Bajemelia, Singur where more than 7000 villagers gathered and about 800 police personnel were deployed – the month ended with the police and CPI (M) cadres preventing Mamata from going to Singur, sparking violence across the state. Close on the heels of a statewide TMC bandh on 1st December, police and CPI (M) cadres terrorised villagers, burning houses and beating up those opposed to land acquisition. Even as Mamata went on a 25-day fast and fourteen village women from Beraberi Purbopara, Singur, started a hunger strike to protest police repression, an eighteen year-old girl who had taken part in the protests, Tapasi Malik, was found raped and burnt in the Tata factory premises. This resulted in more mainstream political mobilisation and allegations of corruption in the state police's investigation of the case, following which the Government handed over the investigation to the Central Bureau of Investigation in mid-January. January 2007 saw the ceremonial commencement of the construction of the factory - even as activists cited discrepancies in official figures of the number of farmers who had allegedly given up their land voluntarily, and farmers protested the withholding of irrigation water from pumps inside the fenced-off factory area. Incidents of farmers attacking the factory fences were reported January onward, while some urban civil activism became visible with non-partisan citizens holding protests in late January in Kolkata. Incidents of police action on protesting farmers continued in February, and while the Kolkata High Court overruled the latest imposition of Section 144 by the State, it upheld the acquisition procedure as lawful. In response to this, attempts by villagers to reclaim land only increased, as did the number of suicides by those who had lost their land throughout the months leading up to the by-elections for two seats in Singur in May. Farmers repeatedly attacked the factory walls but met with violent police reactions. In June, Living and Livelihood with Human Dignity (LALHUD), a voluntary organisation found that over 90% of the villagers whose land had been forcibly acquired were severely traumatised. The CBI, in the meantime, made its first arrests for the murder of Tapasi Malik, including CPI (M) Hooghly district committee member Suhrid Dutta. Apparently unmoved by the persistent protests by farmers, in November, the state government sanctioned Rs 7.78 crore to improve drainage within the Tata factory site at the cost of possibly flooding neighbouring villages – in prompt response to this over 1,500 villagers held a rally in Singur but the troubling number of farmers' suicides did not abate as the long year drew to a close. On 7th January, 2008, the CPI(M) was voted out of the management of a Singur school, while almost at the same time on 10th January, Ratan Tata launched the Tata Nano in New Delhi amidst much fanfare. In addition to this, on 19th January the Calcutta High Court dismissed allegations of improper and illegal acquisition of 997 acres at Singur, causing doctors to fear that this would only aggravate the rate of suicides by affected farmers. Aggrieved by the verdict, farmers of Singur blocked the Durgapur expressway to register their protest. The panchayat elections of 2008 saw the Left Front losing all the seats in Singur in May 2008. Buoyed by the election victory, Mamata Banerjee announced on 26th May 2008 that the 400 acres of land which belongs to unwilling farm owners who have not even collected their compensation cheques, must be returned to the farm owners. On 20th July crude bombs were hurled by farmers protesting against the factory in Singur railway station and at Mainak Lodge, a guest house where workers of the Tata Motors plant were staying. Workers coming to the Tata Motors factory were stopped and beaten up by SKJRC members. The next day, Manish Khatua, an employee of Shapoorji Pallonji working at the Tata Motors factory was beaten up by SKJRC members. On 1st August, a group of farmers forced their way into the small car project site from the Khasherbheri side and allegedly beat up several workers and seven security guards. In another incident, some construction workers and two policemen were allegedly beaten up by some supporters of SKJRC on Durgapur Expressway near the project site. The attack took place when some policemen were escorting the workers to Singur railway station. On 3rd August the TMC announced that they would set up camps for an indefinite period from 24 August all along the 4 km-long stretch on the highway in front of the Tata plant to press its demand for return of 400 acres of land acquired forcibly from farmers. Protest marches in Singur by both the Left Front and the SKJRC and the Congress preceded the commencement of the sit-in on the highway in front of the factory. The TMC carried out a sit-in from 24th August and this siege was withdrawn only on 7th September after a meeting moderated by the governor Gopalkrishna Gandhi, the state government agreed to allot as much land as possible from inside or near the Tata factory to some unwilling farm owners. Profiles of some of the villages we visited: Dobandi: Dobandi is a village of about 95 families (with, on an average, 5 members in each family), all of whom are members of the Scheduled Castes. Caste is one of the reasons for the continuing poverty of the people of Dobandi. The residents are landless farm labourers. This village is the worst hit as the land they used to work on has been taken over for the Tata Motors factory. Now, the people have to walk a long way and find work elsewhere. Even this work is at reduced wages. Previously, being farm labourers, they did not have to buy food grains as they used to take their share from the land they used to work on. Now, they have to buy food grains. Joymollah: Joymollah is primarily a Muslim village. Whereas some families are as poor as the people of Dobandi, some are better off. As a result there are both mud houses and concrete houses. Most of the women are into hand embroidery. Some of the men are also into carpentry outside Singur. As a result, they have some sort of an alternate livelihood. The women who are into embroidery however are paid very little for their efforts. For embroidering a double-bed-sheet, they are paid Rs.40 Khaserbheri: Mostly comprising people who owned land. As a result, they have been badly affected as their only source of income has been taken away from them. They made a living somehow from their reserve stocks but now that it has run out, and they are in a very bad state. The village is better off than villages like Dobandi and Joymollah. About 30 women in this village are also into hand embroidery. Beraberi Purbopara: Situated next to Beraberi market, this village comprises mostly families who were landowners. After the first batch of 5 families which voluntarily gave up their land, the other 195 families in this village have not agreed to give up any land at all though most of them have lost some or all of their land. Most families have some source of income other than farming, usually a job outside Singur. As a result, they have been able to continue with their lives in Singur. Bajemelia: One of the largest villages in Singur. Tapasi Malik, an eighteen year old girl from this village, was raped and murdered within the Tata Motors premises in December 2006. The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) later arrested CPI (M) Hooghly district committee member Suhrid Dutta for planning and carrying out this murder. The village has been at the forefront of the protests against the factory ever since this gruesome incident. Ujjwal Sangha: Another village which comprises residents who are mostly members of the Scheduled Castes. This village is more prosperous than Dobandi. Ujjwal Sangha is the first village in Singur where the protests against the then proposed Tata Motors factory started. Special Economic Zones (SEZ) Though Singur has not officially been notified as an SEZ by the government, the Tata Motors area has been functioning as an SEZ. An SEZ as defined by the SEZ Act, 2005 is an area of land which is owned and operated by private companies and is outside the purview of several laws of the land like the Minimum Wages Act, panchayat system (SEZs have their own governing bodies), revenue duties like sales tax, income tax, service tax, etc. The Indian government plans to create about 500 SEZs across the country, more than what exists across the entire world. China, India's model for economic growth had less than 10 SEZs and out of these all have proved unsuccessful except for the largest one – Shenzen. Whereas in China, the SEZs were built on wastelands, in India and especially in West Bengal, rich farmland like those in Singur and Nandigram have been targeted. Owing to the vast areas of land on which these SEZs are being built (997 acres in Singur and 10,000 acres had been planned in Nandigram), building SEZs will create displacement of unprecedented proportions. It is not as if these SEZs will provide local jobs for only skilled engineers will be permanently given employment at such sites. The vast areas of land in which some Indian laws will not be applicable but in their place, laws laid down by the private company owning the SEZ will prevail will make these SEZs corporate city-states. Also, the SEZ act makes it valid to allocate up to 75% of the SEZ for non-industrial purposes. As a result, the land under the SEZ can be used for real estate. The SEZ economic policy of the Indian government is also feared to trigger mass scale food crisis in India as agricultural land is converted into industrial land. Whereas, the CPI (M)-led government of West Bengal has been campaigning for SEZs in the state, they have been protesting against SEZs in other states. Brinda Karat of the CPI (M) has organized anti-SEZ rallies in Maharashtra. The CPI (M) is using the same points to argue against SEZs in other states which critics in West Bengal have levelled against the CPI (M) in West Bengal. Almost all the notified SEZs in India have been protested against by the local residents as they will be displaced and be paid either miniscule compensation or none at all. State terror is being used to forcibly evict the residents on these lands and acquire such land for SEZs. More information on SEZs can be found at http://development-dialogues.blogspot.com/search/label/SEZ From citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 08:01:49 2008 From: citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com (Citizens' Initiative) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:01:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Citizens' Initiative's report on Singur (part 2) Message-ID: <63c17b480810311931v4eabcbd2t40de995ef136d99c@mail.gmail.com> EXTRACTS FROM OUR SINGUR NOTEBOOKS Disclaimer: The following pages (10 -14) are a brief attempt to give you an overview of our experiences in Singur. This document makes no claims towards quantitative or statistical truth; it is an affective record of what we have seen and heard. It simply tries to give you snippets of our interactions with the villagers in Singur, our thoughts on their lives after Tata and our primary understanding/ analyses of the situation. We would sincerely request you not to quote or make citations from these 5 pages. However, the idea is to share and disseminate what we have experienced within the terms in which that experience can (at the moment) be framed – informal, largely unprocessed, affective, and based on personal interactions with the villagers. We do, of course, have the audio files and video clippings (that the following conversations have been transcribed from) to support this document in our recorded archives. >From February to August, the Citizens' Initiative has made nine visits to Singur: on 17 February, on 23-24 February, 30 March, 19th April, 18th May, 14th June, 22nd June, 27th July, and 29th August. The purposes of these visits have been diverse – from photo-documenting to taking relief collected for the people of Dobandi. But on each of these visits we have spoken to the men and women of Dobandi, Khaserbheri, Purbopara and Joymollah. This document is a brief attempt to record these interactions. Several of us had made notes regarding our observations during the visit/visits. Following are some of our write-ups from our first visit in February, complete in the moods and preoccupations particular to each author (which is to say, these little reports have not been subjected to any serious textual screening, and that they do not carry any editorial intervention yet). The write-ups inevitably overlap on certain grounds, but perhaps that overlapping serves to underline those areas that stood out with particular force to us. 1. By Trina Banerjee: 18th February, 2008. We went to Singur on the 17th with Aseem Shrivastava, spent the day there, walked over a few kilometers and spoke to people in about five villages. We have photographs and some audio recordings. Briefly, people in Dobandi (a village full of landless labourers just outside the factory walls) are all but starving. They are unlikely to survive without our urgent attention and relief. They have no money to buy milk for their babies, and they are fast running out of resources and food. If we want to keep these people from migrating to the city as destitutes in a few months, we have to reach out to them urgently with some relief. Some of the local men and boys from this village have been employed as guards at the Tata factory. But they say they have not been paid their salary for four months. Villagers in Beraberi Purbopara say that eight sacks (400 kgs) of harvested potatoes were stolen from the fields near Khaserbheri day before yesterday. This, according to the angry villagers, has hardly ever happened before. In their parlance, "before" always means before the Tata factory came up. An 80-year-old woman in Purbopara said to me: "This is the first time in my life I am being forced to buy rationed rice. We always ate out of our own fields. We were self-sufficient" Women in Beraberi Purbopara are making festoons with ribbons (12 festoons cost Rs 2 and are taken by vendors from the city) to try and make some money. They are also embroidering bed covers for measly returns. Most women in Dobandi have to leave their children and infants behind all day to work in fields that are 6 to 7 km away. They leave home at 3 am everyday and walk for 3 to 4 hrs and back again at the end of the day, sometimes quite late in the evening. They are paid anything from Rs. 30 Rs. 50 per day. And this amount, the women say, is likely to go down as summer arrives. The landowners who employ the labourers know that they have no other option. Most of this money is spent on buying rice for the large families, there is little left over for anything else – even basic medicine for the sick. The people who have been given alternative houses near Dobandi live in the middle of the field right next to a high factory wall. 8 to 10 people live in each room with no trees and no shade, and with little access to water. To me, they look like ghettos, not villages or settlements. They were flooded waist-high when it rained because the natural drainage system of the area has been damaged for good by the factory constructions. Marks of the flood waters can be seen on the walls. Finally, the factory is built like a fortress. There are walls inside walls. It is surrounded by a moat (probably meant to carry out waste water but something that also acts as an effective deterrent to intruders) and wire fences in places. The floodlights point outwards to the fields not inwards. There are watchtowers (machas) at regular intervals; every entrance is guarded by police or local young men employed as guards. The people are very angry. They said: "They are taking away our land, our country, our earth. They are sending a thousand policemen to uproot a few villagers." 2. From the Notebook of Dibyajyoti Ghosh, Citizens' Initiative: February, 2008. • The villagers welcome any kind of support but they want immediate results. • The landowners in Khaserbheri were better off compared to villagers in Dobandi. Some of them also work in Kolkata. Many are into carpentry. • According to most of the villagers, only 5 out of the 200 families in Beraberi Purbopara gave up their land readily and continue to be CPI (M) supporters. • The rest of the villagers say that they have not received their compensation cheques. They add that they are also not interested in compensation. • The uncompensated villagers say that even if they had the money they would not know how to spend it. Previously, they would buy more land with what they earned. Now they wouldn't know what to do. • Some people from Dobandi said they refused jobs offered by the Tata factory. Others said that they weren't offered any jobs at all. 3. General Observations from Kenneth Bo Nielsen, Faculty of Social Anthropology, University of Oslo, Resident Researcher at Singur for Several Months from 2007to 2008: From the Notebooks of Insiya Poonawala. February, 2008. 1. At any point farmers would grow at least 3 regular crops on the land like paddy, jute, and potato. In addition to they would plant more in between, growing up to about 7 crops a year. 2. There has been a steady stream of researchers, journalists and fact finding teams coming to Singur from different parts of Bengal and other states. Individual researchers have come from other countries like Spain. 3. Attention is well-received by the villagers. They are not tired of talking to outsiders. They think that these people would perhaps do something for them. 4. This was a prosperous area on the whole. The villagers had a steady income from farms as well as from jobs as teachers and carpenters. This was the ideal combination for any family – a mix of farming and non-farming activity. 5. 5 out of 200 families gave up their lands. 6. People who have received compensation don't know what they would do with such a huge one-time amount. 7. The political affiliations are quite evenly balanced between the CPI (M) and TMC. There is some intimidation, but it is not very intense. 8. Some police presence is there in the villages and a good number is present inside the factory. 9. Villagers have no milk for themselves and their babies because they were forced to sell their cows to make ends meet. The children are highly malnourished now. 10. The highway has not actually helped the Singur farmers because, even when they did have crops to transport, they used the train, and not the road. 11. Most of the tube wells have fallen inside the Tata premises. So the neighbouring land cannot be adequately irrigated. 12. Inside the factory there is extra land for vendors (manufacturers of spare parts for the car). 13. During the monsoon this year, the factory pumped all the water that had collected in their enclosure into the neighbouring land outside. And this flooded the area beyond the factory walls. >From the notebook of Insiya Poonawala, The Citizens' Initiative: February, 2008. >From a conversation with Tea-Shop Owner at Beraberi Bazaar: 1. Singur used to be a peaceful place and people were not very used to violence and clashes with police. 2. Two major sets of clashes took place in 2006, on 25th September and on 2nd December. 3. The villages of Dobandi and Ujjwal Sangha are worst hit. The villagers here belong to the Scheduled Castes. They were mostly land labourers who have now lost their jobs. >From a Conversation with a Dobandi Inhabitant: 1. He said he had been protesting with some other villagers against land acquisition even before the TMC came in. 2. Those left jobless after land acquisition now have to find work elsewhere outside the village. On an average they have to travel for 30 minutes to work. 3. Earlier the villagers had enough to eat. 4. Now, even the women have to work to support their families. 5. Villagers were told that these lands were not fertile. The police and the CPI (M) cadres don't let villagers re-build the tube wells that were forcefully broken. (More of what this interviewee said is on audio.) >From a Conversation with a Dobandi Resident Now Working in a Factory in Liluah: 1. The most fertile bit of land has been taken up by the factory premises. 2. The villagers cannot differentiate between the police and CPI (M) cadres. 3. Only those who gave up their land voluntarily got compensation cheques. 4. The interviewee said that he did not ask for any compensation. 5. He said he is yet to decide if he wants compensation. He wants his land back. 6. Their tube wells were broken by force. The villagers were not allowed to repair them. >From a Conversation with a Relocated Resident: 1. The interviewee said her family had two rooms in the house that fell inside the factory premises. 2. Now five of them have been given one small room in the housing provided by the state government. 3. Her husband has been given a guard's job in the factory. 4. They have not paid him his salary for several months. 5. Tata had promised work and housing. But no compensation was discussed. >From a Conversation with another Relocated Resident: 1. Seven members of her family have been given one small room. 2. Her husband has been employed as a guard at the factory and has not been paid for 4 months. His salary was fixed at Rs. 2100 per month. 3. Only one male member from each family has been employed as a guard. They work 5 days a week in eight-hour long shifts. 4. They had a house inside the factory. They refused to give it up, but police came and broke it down. General Observations: - The Tata Motors shed is only perhaps about 10% of the entire land acquired. This emerged from discussions with locals, resident students and experts on SEZ. - The factory's strategic location is just off the national highway part of the Golden Quadrangle. - The entire population can be divided into 3 sets of people: 1. Those who have lost their lands but retain their houses: we met these people mainly in the village of Dobandi. They are willing to talk openly and voice their discontent. No jobs or compensation have been offered to them as they did not give up their land willingly. Both the men and the women have to travel long distances outside the village to find employment, often leaving their children with older members of the family. Earlier, the men worked full time on fields. The women assisted them as well as looked after the children. The older children went to school and also helped with the farming. 2. Those who have lost both their lands and their houses: this is a more bitter lot, slightly reluctant to talk, and mistrustful of outsiders. The two women I spoke to were of the opinion that we would not be able to do much for them. We were there to make notes, write reports in the city, and not really do anything to change their lot. 3. Those who voluntarily gave up their land: they comprise just 5 out of the 200 families in Beraberi Purbopara. They were very reluctant to talk. They did not say much except that they have been paid their compensation. They also said that they are being paid their salaries on time. They seem to be treated like outcasts by other villagers. There is a great deal of resentment against them because they have given up their land. >From the Notebook of Amrita Dhar, Citizens' Initiative: February, 2008. Observations on Dobandi: 1. The village of Dobandi is situated to the north of the Beraberi Bazaar. It is a small one-road village, consisting of approximately 95 families, with (on an average) 5 members to each family. 2. It is 1 of 2 villages consisting entirely of Scheduled Caste people. (The other is Ujjwal Sangha.) 3. Dobandi consists entirely of landless farm labourers. The people here used to earn their living from the land, but by working on land belonging to other people. Now that the land has been taken away, they have neither land to work on, nor hope for any compensation. (In fact, landless labourers are probably entitled to 25% of the price of the land they used to work on. But they do not seem to either know or care.) For the most part, the men travel long distances every day now in order to find work. The women join them too, and this leaves the children in the care of the very old and feeble. This is no safe arrangement for either the very young or the very old, but this seems to be the only option now. 4. Most families who earlier on owned cows have now sold them for want of fields to graze the animals on. One major result is the lack of milk for the children. Most children in the village are thin and have an unhealthy pot-belly. Clearly, these are signs of malnutrition. 5. For the first time, the villagers are not self-sufficient in terms of food. They have to buy their food. It was land that used to provide them with food. Now, they have to buy food grains. Since they cannot afford to do so all the time, they have to supplement rice with 'muri, 'ruti', etc. Here are the chief areas of physical distress or discomfort at Dobandi: 1. Most villagers complained of cough and cold. However, this was probably the follow-through of the winter. This was perhaps also because the children did not have enough warm clothing. 2. Dysentery and other stomach-problems were common complaints. 3. Psychological and mental unease – amounting even to trauma – is apparent in most men and women; the continued uncertainty about where their next meal will come from along with the inability to provide for their children and the aged have been added to the anxiety about finding work the next day. 4. Women seem to have certain problems that they do not wish to express to a group consisting of both men and women. Indications of administrative laxness include: 1. Several villagers in Dobandi complained of a dysfunctional dispensary and clinic at Singur (Dobandi has no clinic or dispensary). Even if and when the doctor is there for consultation, no more than prescriptions are forthcoming. Most villagers complained that the free distribution of medicines except painkillers almost never happens. Villagers also admit that they are lax about taking care of themselves, besides the fact that they often cannot afford the prescribed medicines. TESTIMONIES OF THE PEOPLE OF SINGUR Transcriptions from Our Audio Files: 17th February 2008 The following are a few of the transcriptions we made from audio recordings from the 17th February visit. They may serve only as indication of the kind of responses we received. Nevertheless, a fairly wide range of issues demanding urgent attention came up during these conversations. Again, the transcriptions given here have not been screened textually, but we hope the import is readily accessible in each case. The headings in bold are names of the audio files as we acquired them. Taken together, the files cover almost all the places, or all the five villages, that we visited on 17th February. Dobandi 1 Female villager 1: Now, we do not have any land to work on. Previously, we used to make a living off the farms. But now that the land has been taken away, there is nothing we can do. CI: What do you do now? Female villager 1: Now we wake up at 3 am and walk for miles to find work. CI: How many of you go to work elsewhere? Female villager 1: Everyone in the village. CI: When do you return? Female villager 1: At 5 in the evening. CI: What about the children? Female villager 1: They have a lot of problems. CI: Were you better off previously? Female villager 1: Yes. CI: What about those who have babies? Female villager 1: They have to leave their babies behind and go to work elsewhere. They have no option. CI: Do you work 7 days a week? Female villager 1: Yes. CI: Has your earning come down? Female villager 1: Yes, a lot. CI: How many members are there in your family? Female villager 1: 6, including one bed-ridden person. CI: Do the women having any specific problems? Female villager 1: Yes, we have to wake up at 3 am, do all the household chores, work till 5pm, return home, and then again do all the household work. CI: Do you get paid daily? Female villager 1: Yes, I get paid Rs. 50 a day CI: Are the men paid more? Female villager 1: Men do not carry hay, they work in potato fields. They are paid more. They get about Rs. 70 as they work more in the fields. Dobandi 2 CI: How would you describe life before the Tata factory? Female villager 2: Previously, we were much better. We did not own land, but we worked as farm labourers on land that falls within the factory premises. Now, we have to wake up at about 2.30 am and walk for about 2 or 2 1/2 hours. CI: Do you get paid daily? Female villager 2: Yes, I get paid Rs. 40 for working in the paddy field. Now, it is the harvest season. But with less work in summer, we will get paid Rs 30 or Rs 35. CI: Are you being paid much less now? Female villager 2: Yes, much less. Now we get almost half of what we used to. CI: Did they ask you when they took away the land? Female villager 2: We do not own land. They did not ask us. Now, we find it very difficult to find food for everyone. CI: How old are you? Female villager 2: About 30 CI: How many children do you have? Female villager 2: I have a 17-year-old daughter who is now married She has two sons and a daughter. They live with me. CI: Are you having problems getting hold of food? Female villager 2: Yes, I have mortgaged my utensils and jewellery to get hold of money. Now, my son-in-law is always drinking and refuses to work. CI: Why did you marry off your daughter to someone like him? Female villager 2: I did not realise that he was a drunkard. Shall I provide food for him or for the children? I have not allowed him to enter the house for four days. He is lying there, drunk.The health facility is very expensive. Last Thursday, we had to buy medicines worth Rs. 60. The doctor said that we should take the patient (a member of the family) to a better clinic. The doctor is going to come here on Monday. CI: Was this at a hospital? Female villager 2: No, the hospital is at Bajemelia. This was at the local medicine shop where there is also a doctor. The doctor charges Rs. 50. The patient is emitting blood along with stool. Outraged Men 1 (in Khaserbheri) CI: What crops do you grow? Male Villager1: Sesame seeds, potatoes, aubergines, cabbages, onions, pumpkin, lady's finger, rice and gourd. CI: How many crops do you grow every year? Male Villager1: Four main crops and the rest are grown along with these main crops. We grow about twelve crops in total. Male Villager2: Now, every year, the area outside the factory walls will be flooded. CI: Why? Male Villager2: Because they will drive out the water from the 997 acres. Previously, water which used to be distributed over a larger expanse of land will now be distributed over a smaller area. So the areas outside the factory walls will be flooded much more than they used to be. Male Villager3: Also, they have broken down our natural drainage system. So there is no way for the water to drain out. The government is telling everyone that Singur is not an extremely fertile land, that we grow one main crop a year. CI: We heard in Dobandi that they are breaking down even the tube wells that are outside their premises so that the farmers are unable to farm. Male Villager1: Yes, that is true. Male Villager2: The guards of the Tata factory are stealing potatoes from our fields. They stole six sacks of potatoes (each weighing 50 kg) last night. Male Villagers (outside Dobandi) CI: Did the people of Dobandi previously eke out a proper living from what they earned from the fields? Male Villager 4: Some farmers used to take lands from big landowners and take half of the profit from the land and used to give the other half to the landowner. Then there are farm labourers who work on those farmlands. The farm labourers used to get Rs. 60 or 70 daily. But now, all this has stopped. The government never thinks about the daily labourers. Now the farm labourers have to work for Rs. 30 or 40 elsewhere. Male Villager 5: Shankar Patra committed suicide. CI (to Male Villager 4): What work do you do? Male Villager 4: I work in a small private company. CI: Where do you work? Male Villager 4: I work in Liluah. CI: How many people are there in your family? Male Villager 4: We are a family of four and I am the only earning member. Kenneth: Kalipada Majhi, who died recently, didn't die solely of starvation but also of other problems related to malnutrition. Dobandi 3 CI: What problems do you think you will face because of the factory? Villager: We think it will be very difficult for us. We will not be able to eat. We are out of work since the land is gone. CI: Is there no other work? Villager: There is work on temporary basis for 2-4 days at a time. CI: Are you thinking of going to the city in search for work? Villager: Not at all, how do you think we would be able to manage to live and work there? Now we worry only about what we will eat for the next meal. CI: Has any compensation offer been made yet? Villager: No, no one has told us anything in that regard. Only those who had land are getting compensation. CI: How many members are there in your family? Villager: About 12 of us. CI: And many of them have to go far away for work, is it so? Villager: Yes, to Kamarkundu, Singur. CI: Earlier would you (the lady in question) too work on the land? Villager: Yes. CI: There is some infertile land. The Tatas didn't buy that? Villager: No only the land on which farming was done has been bought by them… Dada fell ill. There was no money to buy medicines. CI: Is there any hospital here? Villager: Yes, there is a Health Center here, but they don't treat well there. They only write prescriptions. One has to buy medicines themselves. There is a hospital at Singur, in the same state. CI: What kind of assistance is most wanted? Clothes? Food? Money? Villager: Rice and clothes would be very useful. [Some talk of an eye injury that one boy suffered] Female Villager: When we visited the Health Center, we had to pay Rs. 110 as fees, plus Rs. 50 as 'current' charge. The boy, 26, had gone to a michhil, about a year ago, where he fell asleep. Not realizing that tear gas was being shot at them, he remained there while the others fled. He cannot do any heavy or straining work anymore. Dobandi 4 Female Villager: It is a great problem finding work around here. We have to go about 300 m away from here. We wake up at 2 in the night to set out for work, leaving our children fast asleep. Many a times if there is no work, we have to go that far and return empty handed. Women Embroidering, Khaserbheri CI: How long to you take to make one of these? [Embroidery on, roughly, a 2 metre cloth] Female Villager: It takes 2 days for something like this. CI: So people give you the cloth for this? Female Villager: Yes, they give cloth and the money. CI: You have begun this work only recently, or would you do this earlier as well? Female Villager: We have been doing this only recently. CI: For those of you who worked on the land, how are you surviving now? Female Villager: We are managing somehow. The girls are doing this embroidery work. It has become very difficult for us to survive. The land is gone. It was our source of food – potato, cabbage, parwals etc. We did not want to give up the land. We were coerced into it by the Police. They hit us and broke our houses as well. CI: Our newspapers tell us that people of Singur do not want to farm any more. It isn't correct, is it? Female Villager: We live off our land, of course it is incorrect! Potato farmer, Purbopara: CI: What did they tell you first when they came asking for the land? City newspapers are wrong in saying that people here don't want to farm anymore, isn't it? Male Villager: Of course. We love working on the land. [Some joke is shared] Male Villager: Children are learning to read and write. One of my sons is studying and the other works in Kolkata. Even those who are young wish to work on the land itself, rather than going far away to work. As long as our soil yields crops, we would want to continue working on it. CI: How was the land taken away? Male Villager: Countless number of policemen came with guns and tear gas, and destroyed a lot of our property. Another Man: apart from Janashakti and Anandabazar, we do not trust any other newspaper. [Another joke about the potato farmer's age] Government Housing 2 Male Villager: He that is the Minister, it's all his, and he is the be-all-and-the-end-all of all things. When we protest against anything [the evacuation being refereed to, here], well, they kicked us in the stomach. With their boots on, they kicked us in the stomach. What can we say? CI: He says that there are 2 parties now… and this year … CM… Woman: If there is a flood, won't the water stand? [There is some discussion on the flooding and the kinds of rice that are grown. There is a very mixed jumble, too many voices] If we have to die, we shall die, but we won't work for them. We also belonged to the CPM party, but we don't any longer. Now when they come to us, we too shall kick them in the chest like they did to us. We don't believe anything they tell us any more. They shall certainly not receive any votes from us any more. Man: Salary? What salary? When the Government pays us, I shall have my salary. Which Government? Our Buddhadeb government. Is this a Government? Is this a democracy? Indeed, the British never ruled us this much, or like this. Is this a Government, or the son of a dog? It favours only the rich and the powerful. It only says, 'Give up your lands, and move out'. CI: Are you still affiliated to the CPM? Man: No, no, never. I have never voted for the CPM. Then as now. I am fighting against oppression now, and that is what I have always done. Whether you give us compensation or not, what difference does it make anymore? For the poor, what difference will it make, where we live, whether on the road or the footpath? For the blind, what difference does it make whether it is night, or day? This government is not of the poor, it is of the rich and mighty. We were serving rice. Lunch, for the kids – they would come in after their bath and have lunch. They started kicking us out then. Some one and a half thousand police came to evacuate us, to make us leave. The pots of water theta were standing on the floor, they kicked and overturned those. And these, here, are my children. This is my younger daughter. They cry for food. CI: Do you go to work everyday? Man No, as they never paid me, I didn't go to work. I don't want that work. I am not going to do that work. I am not interested. CI: But you have enrolled for the work…? Man: Name? O, but so what? Does that mean I have sold my head and soul to them? I am willing to work… CI: Are there many like you, who have enrolled this way? Man: Yes. Some of them go, some don't… CI: Did you go for all four months? You haven't been going for the last fifteen days…? Man: I haven't been going for the last fifteen days. Two months passed, with no salary. I have six in my family who depend entirely on me. I have to find some other way to feed my family. CI: Did you go everyday at the outset? Man: Yes. I have been going for a year. CI: Are they teaching any skills/work to any of the people here? Man: No. Yes, sometimes, maybe. We hear of training centers in Belur Math. Those that they do take for such training are the people with contacts. The ones who are taken are sons of the leaders, the local CPI (M) leaders, for instance, or their relations. The poor are not taken. Neither are those without such contacts. And when there is unrest and fighting, then they call us. They tell us, 'Go forward, onward!' They then give the poor 5 kilos of rice, 5 kilos of dal, a shirt, a blanket, and then they say, 'Come on, take up your staffs, your sticks, onward!' And then, fed, we go with them. For those few meals, however little that is. And those who have to take advantage of the situation, well, they go ahead and do just that from the side. If anyone wants to go out and speak the truth, they remove them right from the face of the earth. Then they think that now the dumb can speak, and the blind can see. They want to remove them right from the face of the earth, then. Another man [who has been hearing all of this so far, in encouragement to the first man]: Long live. Well said! Dobandi 7 [Confused sounds. General complains, more in mood than in actual words.] CI: Has your income decreased greatly, since the work on the land has stopped? Woman: Yes, enormously. Now we work from day to day, and at reduced wages. How can we buy two and a half kilos of rice? We never had to this before. Now we have to buy, at great prices, and yet have to supplement the rice with muri, ruti… Khaserbheri CI: So they [people who belong to the CPM] only make a show of resistance now, do they? Man: Yes. If they really resist, won't they have to give up their cushions there with the Tatas? CI: Are all of you in the Trinamul now? Man: No, not all, no. But the thing is, when someone gets deeply hurt, don't they even have to forget his parents? When people get hurt after alliance with one party, they choose the opposition to that party, do they not? The land is ours by birth and work. If one takes away that land from us, how are we supposed to feel? They who earlier on assured us of land, who taught us to fight for it, they are now taking our land away from us… [They talk of history, of the Tebhaga Andolan very close to here, and how the CPI (M) came to power in the first place. Trina explains this, probably to Aseem.] Look at the Gujarat case. Who knows exactly what happened between the Hindus and the Muslims there? And they started spreading the news here that they [the Hindus] were killing off the Muslims. That the BJP Government is killing off the Muslims. When they have these big processions [michhils], do they consist of people from our place? They [the CPI (M)] bring in people from the Bankura and Bardhaman districts against pay. They are paid about Rs 70 per day. These are people who are daily labourers. If one attends these meetings, one has to pay Rs 100. If one doesn't, one has to pay Rs 200. Exchange with Aseem Shrivastava and Kenneth Bo Nielsen CI: Is the extra land for vendors? Kenneth: Yes. Inside, you will find a much higher wall and inside the real factory is coming up. I have never tried going inside. They have speeded up the construction only recently. The whole area was flooded till October 2007. They only started building properly since then. Aseem: The whole area is so large that I doubt whether the factory will occupy the entire area. A large area will be leased out to vendors. CI: So, there will be a self-sufficient city with vendors, the factory and the residential area. Aseem: There are provisions within the SEZ Act which make it difficult for the Indian constitution and the Indian Penal Code to function within the SEZs. Tea shop outside Dobandi Man: I used to previously farm within the factory premises. They even forcefully took away my harvest. My ancestors were also farmers. They never made me a 'borga'. CI: How long have you been protesting? Man: From the beginning, when the Trinamul Congress hadn't come here. We went to Ujjwal Sangha with 50-60 people. Then the Trinamul Congress came and we had a meeting at the school premises. CI: What's happening now? Man: It's difficult to sustain ourselves now. The poorest and most hard-working people live in Dobandi. We go to work far away. We have to walk for 20-30 minutes to reach our workplace. I am working but not many people in our village have much work. CI: Were you offered any compensation? Man: No CI: Were you threatened? Man: The police threatened us. The police said you will get some money, leave the land. We refused. There was a lot of trouble regarding this. CI: When was this? Man: This was before the takeover started. 7-8 months before that. CI: How much land did you farm on? Man: 5-6 bighas. Now the village is almost deserted because everyone has gone to work. CI: Even the women? Man: Yes, they have to work now as well. Previously they did not have to. They have broken down our deep tube wells. CI: Yes, I read it in the newspapers in September. Man: They said that this land is not for farming and so they broke them down. CI: Who did it, the police? Man: No, government people. They said it was unfertile land and so they broke them down. Now we harvested potatoes. We have four main crops and the rest are sown in between these main crops. These subsidiary crops take about 6 weeks to grow. We have about 12 crops a year in total. CI: How much do you get for potatoes? Man: About Rs 200, Rs 225 for 50 kg. Another Man: (explains the main crop and subsidiary crop method) As is being reported in the newspapers, the tube wells were broken down 'in the darkness of the night'. Tea shop outside Dobandi 2 CI: Did the CPI (M) cadres create any problem? Villager: How will we know who is a cadre? The cadres wear police uniforms. All of them are outsiders. How will we know outsiders? CI: Does the CPI (M) have any stronghold over here in Dobandi like they have in Bajemelia? Villager: No, they have it in Bajemelia but not over here. CI: Have any of you got compensation cheques? Villager: Those who gave up the land voluntarily, only they will get cheques but only some of them have got cheques, not all. CI: Did you have land inside? Villager: I had one bigha inside. CI: Have any of you spoken to people from Nandigram? Villager: We had planned to go to Nandigram but didn't. CI: If you are offered compensation now, will you take it? Villager: No. The land was more important to me. Suppose I sold the land to someone nearby, I could buy the land back again if I had money. Now, I can never get back this land. Previously, we could buy and sell it for Rs 40,000 per bigha. Now, the price is Rs 4 lakhs. CI: We, city-dwellers, are told that the farmers do not want to farm any longer because farming is no longer profitable. Is this true? Villager: No, only those who have got other jobs do not farm. All other farmers want to farm. Some people from the TATAs came and told us once that they will make roads for us and make permanent houses but they didn't do anything. They didn't give us anything. Nor did we get anything in writing. Who knows, maybe they would have broken down our old houses but not given us new permanent ones? CI: Do you trust the government and the TATAs? Villager: No. Widowed Woman, Purbopara (Testimony, Video File: 19th April 2008) Her husband's shop near the highway was looted completely more than once in 2007. All complaints to the local police were made to no avail. The family was reduced to severe poverty. Her husband committed suicide in desperation. She suspects that the repeated looting and destruction of the shop happened because their family supported the TMC and participated in the protests against the land acquisition. Woman: Yes, there are 300 to 400 policemen still here. Yes, they have reduced in number a little now…but they are still here. CI: Were the police here when your shop was looted? Woman: Yes, they said: 'How can we help it if things were stolen? You should have kept watch. When I came back after having met the police and other people who are stationed nearby the shop, my son said I shouldn't have gone and faced so many people alone. I told my son I had just gone to ask what had happened. I needed to ask them how the theft could have happened when so many people are present nearby. CI: So what was their answer? Woman: They said we can not tell you how it happened. We do not know. My son told me they are lying. He said it must be them who had organised the thefts. During the nights, he said, they would break down and steal everything in the shop. That is what my son said. There are two shops next to our's. Those were left intact. I asked them how this was so and why those had not been affected. The thing is that the people who own these shops have not been part of the protests or the struggles. They vote for CPI (M). It is because we are TMC supporters and we take part in the protests that our shops were looted. We didn't have our own land, we were labourers on other people's lands. But we had the shop and we made enough to last us the whole year. CI: What about the other shops next to yours? Woman: Oh, nothing happened to them. They are still there. Just go and see. The two adjacent shops are there, only our's is broken down. It's just here, near the highway. CI: How long ago was this? Woman: My husband killed himself three months back. CI: How old was he? Woman: He was fifty. CI: How many children do you have? Woman: I have one son and two daughters. This is my daughter-in-law. He was married two years ago. CI: How do you get by now? Woman: With whatever my son earns. He makes grills, but only gets about Rs. 50/- a day and that too only when there is work. My daughter in law has recently had a baby, then there is my daughter. The younger one used to study before this. But in all this trouble, she has had to leave. It is not enough. CI: She is not going to school anymore? Woman: No, how can she? All these problems. CI: Which class was she in? Woman: She was in Class seven. There is no money for tuitions. And if we cannot afford the extra help, then how will she pass the exams? She said there was no point in going to school anymore, so she stopped. CI: So she has left school? Woman: Yes. My son has not gone to work today. You work all day and get only Rs. 50/-. He said he will not go. He has to go early in the mornings and only returns at seven in the evening. CI: So this is all the earning you have for the whole family? Woman: Yes. Six of us and fifty rupees a day. CI: Did you lodge a formal complaint about your shop being broken down? Woman: Yes, I did. We complained to the police. Then didi (Mamata Banerjee) came. She came and saw our shop. She said it is very sad it has happened twice but it probably will not happen again. Right after that, it was stripped bare again. Everything was stolen. Thrice we rebuilt it, thrice it was destroyed. Didi had said that it was happening for political reasons. CI: You haven't been offered any sort of compensation for this repeated looting? Woman: No, none at all. Look at our house. It's almost falling down. The monsoons are coming. I don't know what is going to happen. We will be flooded soon. What do we do with the little money we get? Do we eat or repair the house? I don't know. Then the older daughter has to be married off. CI: We are students. We don't have very much money. This is the fourth time we are coming here. We are trying very hard that the news from here reaches the cities. What kind of work do you think would be helpful for you? Is there anyone else besides your son who can work in your family? Woman: Who else is their besides my son? There is no one. My daughter … she has studied a bit, but not much. CI: Have you received any information about the central government's NREGA scheme from the local panchayat or from your leaders? Woman: No we haven't got any news. CI: You haven't heard of job cards either? Woman: No. But we have had applied for the BPL card this time. We haven't got it yet. But we haven't heard of job cards. (CI explains the NREGA scheme.) CI: You should have received news of this. But you haven't. Woman: No, we have absolutely no news. From citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 08:02:54 2008 From: citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com (Citizens' Initiative) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:02:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Citizens' Initiative's report on Singur (part 3) Message-ID: <63c17b480810311932m1a2128a4sec054595404cc75e@mail.gmail.com> OUR OBSERVATIONS AND COMMENTS ENDEMIC PROBLEMS Health Most children in Dobandi have potbellies, suggesting worms and protein deficiency. While the former is a result of lack of sanitation and hygiene because of crammed living space and lack of toilets, the latter is probably because of increasing paucity of the right food – and milk – for the children. Before the landless labourers of Dobandi lost their livelihood, most families owned a cow or two. Maintenance was easy, as the animals were fed from farm by-products. After they lost their jobs, inability to afford the upkeep of the cows and need for money, forced most families to sell their animals. Now, obviously, the milk of the cows is no longer available for the children, and they are deprived of what was an easy and accessible source of nutrition. They have to buy their food. As long as the land was there for the tilling, it was the land that provided them with food. Now, they have to buy food grains. Here are the chief areas of physical distress or discomfort we have noted among the people of Dobandi: 1. Most villagers were probably anaemic. 2. Dysentery and other stomach-problems seem to be common. 3. Most villagers, particularly children, are very thin and severely undernourished. Most children have a pot-belly. 4. Psychological and mental unease – amounting even to trauma – is apparent in most men and women; the continued tenterhooks of not knowing where their next meal shall come from, of being unable to provide for their children and for the aged, of wondering where to find work the next day. Among indications of administrative laxness are: 1. Several villagers complained of a dysfunctional dispensary and clinic. Even if and when the doctor is there for consultation, no more than prescriptions are forthcoming. Most villagers complained that the free distribution of medicines almost never happens outside of the distribution of painkillers, etc. Villagers admit that they are lax, this way, about looking after themselves, because they often cannot afford the medicines prescribed to them. 2. The doctors of Centre for Care of Torture Victims with whom we had organised a medical camp on 18th May 2008 and again on 27th July 2008 say that one of the biggest health problems in Dobandi is the lack of toilets for defecation. The exposed faeces obviously lead to worms. There are three tube-wells in Dobandi and two bathrooms (strictly bathrooms, not meant for defecation). Besides health problems, the practice of going to the fields to defecate also has other hazards. Tapasi Malik's rape and murder was occasioned by it. The panchayat was till 2008 dominated by the CPI (M). Money is allocated to the panchayat for construction of toilets. Now that the TMC has won all 10 seats in Singur, Citizens' Initiative plans to take up the matter with the panchayat. Education The Beraberi Ramakrishna Vivekananda Sevasram Balika Vidyalaya lies unused for the greater part of the year. It is only one of the many schools in Singur that suffer from paucity of regular teachers. But today, even where schools are functional in Singur, there is an altogether different kind of challenge facing the education of the young. Residents of villages most acutely hit by the land-acquisition say that increasingly, older children are dropping out of school simply because their families need them to work in order to ensure food for the family. And there are others who say, simply, that they cannot anymore afford to send their children to school because even a minimal fee is now beyond their means to pay. Employment The National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGS) under the NREGA 2005 assures every adult member of any rural household willing to do unskilled manual work one hundred days of employment in every financial year at the statutory minimum wage. Most adult residents of Dobandi have NREGS job cards, yet, on an average no one has received paid work for more than 7 days. Demand for 100 days of work from the authorities has been met with the dodge that there are no work openings available. While most people have not received any work at all, those who have tell yet another story – that in many cases, the amount of work they were expected to do in a day was not such that was normally humanly possible for someone used to farming only and not used to other forms of manual labour (it would ordinarily take 2-3 days for one person to do that quantum of work, for instance. Also, the NREGS enforcers made the people dig a quantum of earth and carry that earth whereas the said quantum of earth needed to be dug only if the earth was not carried. A much lesser quantum of earth was required to be dug if the earth was carried), and that that inability has often translated, come pay-time, to a claim that the work has not been done to requirement, and therefore is undeserving of pay and also that the worker is unskilled and hence cannot be given any further work. Only some villages in Singur had NREGS cards. These were largely due to the efforts of the Paschim Banga Khet Majoor Samiti, an NGO. The West Bengal government has made little attempt to get NREGS cards for the villagers of Singur. Most adults in the village of Dobandi had NREGS cards, whereas people in Joymollah did not. The people in Joymollah had BPL cards though (whereas people in Dobandi did not). However, curiously while some members of a family had a BPL card, some others in the family had a below poverty-level card. In one case, in a family where everyone had BPL cards, the sole exception was the youngest child who had an above poverty-level card. People in Khasherbheri complained that while some people had submitted their NREGS application forms, they did not know and were not told about the counterfoil and nor were they issued the NREGS cards. On demanding the application back (after more than the stipulated time within which the cards are supposed to be issued) so that they could re-apply, they were told that since the previous application was pending, a new application could not be made. The TMC's role The Singur block had been a CPI (M) stronghold till the 2008 panchayat elections in West Bengal. 7 out of the 10 seats in the Singur panchayat belonged to the CPI(M) while 3 were held by the opposition, the TMC . A fierce campaign ensued on part of both parties. While the CPI(M) wished to keep its previous number of seats intact, if not more, the TMC found issues in this year's panchayat election that were not there the last time. The fury of the people of Singur who lost their jobs and means of livelihood due to the creation of the Tata Motors factory site was seen as a major issue during the panchayat elections. Ever since the announcement of Tata Motors factory site in Singur (incidentally the same day as the announcement of the 2006 assembly election results where the TMC lost out miserably to its opponents), Mamata Banerjee, leader of the TMC, has been campaigning and protesting against such a move of the West Bengal government. Just before the elections in 2008, the urgency of this issue was stepped up by the TMC. Several landowners in Singur have not collected their compensation cheques that were offered to them by the Government. In Beraberi Purbopara, out of a total of 200 families that lost their land, only 5 have voluntarily given up their land and claimed compensation from the government. These families were never fully depended on their land for their earning, but had one family member, at least, working in the city. The rest who did not willingly give up their land, but were offered compensation, refused to collect their cheques. This was a gesture of protest with a further claim that they want, not compensation, but their land back. This sentiment has been fuelled by the TMC, who has been fighting with the land owners to get them their land back. However, they are consistently still being advised not to take their compensation cheques, while the TMC still campaigns for the return of the land. It is a move by the party to keep a victimised population, by giving them the hope that their land can still be got back if they keep fighting for it. But in truth the land can never be got lack, as it has been unconditionally leased out for 99 years to the Tatas, whose workers are labouring round-the-clock to build sheds. The land is being cemented in order to do so, so that now even if the land is returned to the farmers, it will be forever unfit for cultivation. The campaign of the TMC therefore is a futile attempt, because the leaders of the party know it as well as the farmers that the land will serve no agricultural use in the future. But this is an important gesture by the party because it shows that the TMC is indeed concerned about the loss of land that the people of Singur have suffered, and is fighting for the return of the land. The TMC, during the course of its 2008 panchayat elections campaign has also provided some services, like the building of pucca roads just outside the villages of Dobandi and Khaserbheri. For this, however, external labour was engaged rather than the villagers themselves, who are now out of jobs and could have worked. While the road itself was built in order to appease the villagers and to show that the TMC had been working for their welfare, there was no attempt to redress and real problems by the party such as the lack of employment opportunities. The TMC has indeed tried to keep a victim population which forms an ideal vote-base rather than an independent and liberated lot of people. After the panchayat elections of 2008, which the TMC won convincingly in Singur, the Beraberi panchayat has shown no initiative to step up work on the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGS). Instead, it is quite satisfied in letting the people of the worst-affected villages like Dobandi work inside the Tata Motors factory. While for villages like Dobandi, any sort of work is necessary, the panchayat has shown signs of being sort of satisfied with the people having some sort of jobs on their hands (even if it is irregular work like unloading trucks once every few days for which some get paid Rs.40 or Rs.50) and the TMC has not taken any concrete steps to ensure proper employment through channels such as the NREGS. The Tata Motors plant The 997 acres that the government allowed the Tatas to choose start right from the highway (the Dankuni-Durgapur highway part of NH 2). The Tatas are not improving the infrastructure of the area in any way but rather they are tapping into an already existing infrastructure. Being right next to the highway and being so close to Kolkata, Singur provides a ready-made zone for the Tatas. Though the land has been marked as a plant covering 997 acres, the car plant will not occupy the entire 997 acres. Whereas the small-car plant will only occupy a fraction of the area, the rest is earmarked for vendors and ancillary units. Also, residential quarters and club houses for the employees of the plant will occupy a large part of the 997 acres. Since it functions almost like an SEZ and every SEZ Authority will be made up of the Development Commissioner, three officers of the Central government and two representatives of the private developer, that is, the Tatas, there will be no elected local government drawn from state legislatures, town councils or local panchayats. Internal security in the plant will also be maintained by the TATAs. The TATA Motors plant will be a corporate city-state and it is also feared that a large part of the 997 acres will be used for real estate – housing and shopping malls. It is not as if the entire 997 acres will be used for industry. The Tata plant has been advertised both by the CPI (M) government and the Tatas as a site for providing employment to thousands of young people. The official promise was to provide employment to 2,000 people initially and ultimately to 10,000 people . However, it is feared that as with any SEZ, the employees will be well-educated city-people rather than farmers. Also, the only kinds of jobs the villagers will ultimately get will be menial jobs – the women will get work as house-maids. Some of the women of Dobandi we had spoken to had also said the same – that while as farmers, one lives with a certain kind of dignity, working as a maid-servant is considered derogatory. The few people from Singur, who have accepted work within the Tata factory, work as either guards or as labourers who help unload trucks and move materials. The pay is extremely irregular. Employees get paid once in several months (and not for all the months but for one month). One person showed us his bank pass book and he had received his salary for January 2008 on 18th May 2008. The Tata plant, it is conjectured, will not provide jobs to the farmers of Singur except for jobs such as domestic servants and construction labourers. Even the construction that has gone on so far has largely employed the labour force from outside Singur. It is not only because the people of Singur are morally against the Tata factory and are hence unwilling to work within the factory but also because better skilled workers have been brought in from outside Singur. GENERAL RECOMMENDATIONS 1. All moves to acquire land for industry should be preceded by detailed dialogue with the owners and users (including traditional users such as sharecroppers and landless farm labourers) of the land, and the entire process should be based on consensus; force must be eschewed. 2. The Land Acquisition Act of 1894 should be amended so as to ensure that the government cannot take away anyone's property without the consent of the property owner. Also, the property owner should be compensated taking into account the value of the land over the years and its future potential. Meanwhile, the state government can create a separate state law on land acquisition which takes into account these factors. As the Supreme Court has said, the state law shall take precedence over the central law. 3. The SEZ Act should be amended so that no tax benefits are given to the large corporate houses and neither should the SEZ area be subject to its own laws but shall be under the jurisdiction of the local government organisations such as panchayats and municipal corporations. 4. The National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGS) should be implemented fully so as to ensure that every willing adult resident gets at least 100 days of work at the minimum wage of Rs.75. All villages should be covered under this scheme. 5. The health facilities in Singur (such as primary health centres and hospitals) should be made to function properly on all weekdays and the medicines which are listed as free should also be distributed to the patients. The list of medicines which are distributed for free should be expanded as it was before and not gradually reduced. 6. Concrete steps must be taken to ensure proper sanitation facilities for the disposal of solid and liquid waste. 7. Ensure that land is not acquired forcibly again, and any means of coercion such as brutalities by either the police or the cadres of the ruling party are not used. 8. While working out compensation for the land, compensation must also be paid to the daily labourers who worked on the land (ie, the landless farm labourers) and migrant labourers who made their living off the land. For instance, people in Dobandi who are landless farm labourers should be paid 25% of the compensation paid to the land owner, as was advertised by the state government. 9. For agricultural workers (especially women who have lost the most employment as per the Paschim Banga Khet Majoor Samity study) compensation in terms of minimum wages should be given for the number of days of employment that they have lost work in the past two years, since December 2006. This amounts to 600 days or Rs.45000 per agricultural worker. (PBKMS) 10. The amount of compensation for all should be equivalent to the current real estate value of the land at the time of payment. Further, the compensation should include shares in the company for all dislocated people. 11. Instead of acquiring large tracts of land in one place and that too fertile land, sick industries should be revived and land should only be allotted in infertile areas. 12. For the 10-12 families who have been displaced by the project (their houses fell within the factory site) and have been resettled in Dobandi, should be given title-deeds of the houses that they are occupying now. These people were promised water supplies. These have not been provided and must be provided immediately. They must also have sanitation facilities, drainage and other facilities that will make their present house site inhabitable along with compensation for the problems caused by dislocation. (PBKMS) 13. People who have been employed within the factory (even as guards or contract labourers), should be paid regular wages and on time (monthly at least, if not weekly or daily). They should be given proper contracts with all the security benefits of a permanent job. 14. Titles to homestead land must be given to the agricultural workers in Dobandi and in other hamlets in Singur who do not even have land rights to their homes at present. (PBKMS) 15. The Tatas should stick to fulfilling the promises that they made such as training women in various activities that will help them generate an alternative mode of income and also set up community centres, primary health care units, supporting primary and secondary schools. 16. Strong environmental safeguards should be put in place in order to ensure that agriculture can flourish in Singur and surrounding areas. Also, there must be very strict monitoring of these safeguards being followed by the Panchayats and local farmers' committees. (PBKMS) 17. Adequate compensation should be given to those who have lost their family members and to those who have been hurt in police violence. (PBKMS) 18. In future, industrialisation will be done only if it is a means of developing an area and not of pauperising its people, and that costs of industrialisation must be clearly measured, not just in terms of loss of land of land owners, but also in terms of loss of livelihood to all the rural poor who live there; that industry must build incrementally on the skills and resources already available in an area; and that it must lead the development of an area as a whole. (PBKMS) 19. A land use map for West Bengal will be brought out, demarcating zones for agricultural land, forests and water bodies and that only certain limited areas, after ensuring least displacement and least environmental disturbance, will be used for industry. (PBKMS) 20. Informed debate in the Gram Sansad must precede the setting up of any project in an area that involves large changes in land use there, and that the Gram Sansad's decisions in this regard must be binding on the State Government and any other sanctioning authority that is bringing in the new project. (PBKMS) 21. Adequate compensation should be given for loss of income since December 2006 to all affected families Land must also be restored to its previous condition and made fit for agriculture. (PBKMS) (This section includes some of the recommendations/demands of the Paschim Banga Khet Majoor Samity that we strongly agree with.) CONCLUSION When we began to write the conclusion to this report, many of us felt that we were not equipped. We are not economists trained to make an informed decision about whether we would prefer industry to agriculture or vice versa (if that indeed is the proposed binary) or to predict accurately what the effects of our choice today would be in the long run. However, we believed that the opinions generated in us by our experience have some value. But we do know a few things about the situation on the ground. We have found out some things on our own in the last seven months. We have, as citizens, gone and seen for ourselves things the mainstream media did not show us. We have tried to understand things with common sense, logic and an open mind, tried to keep ourselves unbiased, tried to protect our non-partisan identity at all costs. W¬e were in Singur at a time when it had disappeared from newspapers and television channels. We were there on ordinary days, trying to record people's day to day lives. What we saw there seemed to us to be absolutely insupportable and more importantly, unsustainable. Our common sense told us this could not go on indefinitely. Something would have to give. It is true that we cannot yet see the benefits of the Tata factory that are being predicted (we concede that there is the possibility that in some distant future they may turn out to be real for some) but it is a fact that we have seen, clearly and with our own eyes, the costs. And they are not such that can be ignored or brushed aside. We are sorry but the 'collateral damage' argument simply does not work for us. Our common sense balks at the suggestion that such suffering is necessary. We wish to ask who possesses the actual spreadsheet for costs and benefits of this industrialisation. Do the two sides really balance out? Even if we accepted for a moment the 'necessary costs' argument [i.e. conceded that industrialisation has always (in Europe, where it began and elsewhere) happened at great initial cost (even sometimes at the barrel of the gun, as in Nandigram), it has inevitably damaged certain kinds of human community, has for centuries caused environmental disasters and must therefore forever continue to happen in the same way], who would provide us with a guarantee that in Singur (and in other places like it) the long term losses are outweighed by the long term gains? If this is 'necessary' damage let there be a proper stock taking of this necessity. The question of Tata or no Tata in West Bengal comes usually down in conversation to a question of agriculture vs. industry, of being pro- or anti-progress. "Progress" in this popular register is equated entirely with "development", as understood from the perspective of almost two decades of an aggressively "liberalised" economy and for the benefit of a state that has often been deemed unfit for industrial progress. It is this oft repeated binary that we wish to stand against. We believe that it is intrinsically damaging, to the intellect, to clear thinking; that it effectively obscures the real questions and ultimately helps those who wish to make immediate political (read partisan) capital out of the crisis. Whose Development? One of the justifications for the damages caused by Tata project (besides the purely consumerist justification of the cheap car as an easily accessible product for the urban middle class) is the number of jobs that the factory will generate. No one really seems to have a clear estimate of exactly how many and what kind of jobs these are, what section of the population of Singur or the surrounding areas maybe effectively employed in or around the factory. In our experience, the skilled construction labour in the area is not from Singur for the simple reason that in most of the affected villages people only know agriculture. Though sometimes a few of the villagers were employed on a day to day basis for unskilled work like carrying loads and digging soil, in most cases, they lost their jobs in a day because of the impossible amount of work piled on them. In many cases, they were not paid as promised. The only long term employment that the local youth has seen in the past months is work as factory guards. Here too, most of the guards come from other parts of the state, and even country. In many cases (as the testimonies state), they had not been paid for months on end. Once the construction of the factory is completed, of course, all these jobs are liable to disappear and unskilled labour of the kind available in the surrounding villages will be less and less in demand. Have the people who argue for employment generation any concrete estimate of what kind of skills will be required for the people working in the factory long term? What are the real possibilities of people from the villages of Dobandi or Beraberi (who know nothing but farming) finding an alternative source of livelihood in and around the factory? If there are meagre possibilities of long term rehabilitation, what then happens to these rural agricultural communities now left without livelihood or subsistence? It is all very well to speak of 'necessary costs', but does accepting industrialisation mean accepting it at any cost, no questions asked, without whys and hows and wherefores, accepting it just as it is handed down to us, without demanding even a reasonable amount of accountability from those who deign to invest in the state of West Bengal? This seems like a sad and rather desperate bargain to strike for a state that is backward in industry, but undeniably and impossibly fertile. The logic then is this - to minimise a weakness you strike a bargain that also minimises your biggest strength. You say that this is simply, well, necessary. And in doing so, you destroy the most fertile tracts of land in the state by cementing its topsoil, filling it up with sand, stone chips, destroying the deep tube wells in the area, damaging the natural drainage system and making the place unfit for cultivation for a long long time to come. There are several villages in the area which were, so far, self-sufficient in terms of the food. They produced enough to feed themselves and their families, and managed to sell what was leftover for good prices. You take away their self-sufficiency, leave them poverty striken, promising them jobs that just do not seem to materialise. Compensation is offered but the question of consent simply does not seem to arise. There are many things that could have been done to 'develop' the area. For example, you could have made sure that the high-school children did not drop out for a lack of textbooks, that the primary health centre functioned properly and provided the medicines they are supposed to distribute, that the Panchayat took care that schemes like the NREGA were working. But no, none of these were done to 'develop' Singur. What the place needed more than anything else was a small car factory. And in order to build this factory, the biggest employment generator in the area – cultivation – is systematically damaged. We are not economists, but yes, our common sense falters here. If the long term goal and the justification for all this is the 'greater good' of all i.e. the state then yes, we concede that there maybe people far more far-sighted than us. But we would still like to know the exact accounts, the logbooks that meticulously record these predictions for the industrial future of the state and exactly how many people would benefit to the detriment of how many others. We would also like to be assured that loss (perhaps forever) of ultra-fertile top-soil and multiple food crops a year would be balanced exactly by the amount of employment generated in other sectors by the Tata factory. We would also like to know whether or not this same logical process carried through in other parts of the state (opening out more and more prime agricultural land to possible investors without setting our own terms) would ultimately lead to food shortage in West Bengal. If that is a possibility, in just how many years would that happen? These are common sense questions, layman's questions about the deeper structures of capitalist 'trickle down' economics. But yes we need to ask them nonetheless before we concede willingly to the idea that the damages we saw in Singur are 'necessary.' Because after all, come what may, one can't eat a car. Two or three other things concern us. First, the laws of the land, which have made it possible to carry out such 'necessary damage' with impunity not just in West Bengal but in different parts of India. The Land Acquisition Act of 1894, a colonial legacy, was last modified in 1985, when we suppose the following sections were suitably reviewed and left in: 5A. Hearing of objections. - (1) Any person interested in any land which has been notified under section 4, sub-section (1), as being needed or likely to be needed for a public purpose or for a Company may, [within thirty days from the date of the publication of the notification], object to the acquisition of the land or of any land in the locality, as the case may be. (2) Every objection under sub-section (1) shall be made to the Collector in writing, and the Collector shall give the objector an opportunity of being heard [in person or by any person authorized by him in this behalf] or by pleader and shall, after hearing all such objections and after making such further inquiry, if any, as he thinks necessary, [either make a report in respect of the land which has been notified under section 4, sub-section (1), or make different reports in respect of different parcels of such land, to the appropriate Government, containing his recommendations on the objections, together with the record of the proceedings held by him, for the decision of that Government]. The decision of the [appropriate Government] on the objections shall be final. Technically then, any piece of land could be acquired under this law by the Government for a 'public purpose' or in some cases for private companies. Under PART VII titled ACQUISITION OF LAND FOR COMPANIES the law states, amongst other things: (a) that the purpose of the acquisition is to obtain land for the erection of dwelling houses for workmen employed by the Company or for the provision of amenities directly connected therewith, 40 B. (b) that such acquisition is needed for the construction of some work, and that such work is likely to prove useful to the public]. 44B. Land not to be acquired under this Part except for certain purpose for private companies other than Government companies. - Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act, no land shall be acquired under this Part, except for the purpose mentioned in clause (a) of sub-section (1) of section 40, for a private company, which is not a Government company. Once again, like we are not economists, we are not lawyers. And it has been a while since the High Court has deemed the acquisition legal under the provisions of this act. But to our layman's understanding, once again, certain things seem amiss. Even if we were to accept the Land Acquisition Act of 1894 as perfectly acceptable and not archaic/colonial at all, what about this – "such acquisition is needed for the construction of some work, and that such work is likely to prove useful to the public." How have 'public' and 'useful' been defined in this context? Moving on, technically then, under this law, it would be possible for the government to acquire any piece of land in the state for a new company and its decision would be final. But urban middle class areas never appear in our imagination when we speak of land acquisition, for various practical reasons no doubt. The government could never raze an upper middle class residential urban locality to the ground to build a company. That seems to be beyond our imagination. But abandoned huts inside the factory premises are not that much of a shock. If there is a value system that allows us to accept people losing their homes in villages without shock, what is it? Do homes take meaning only with location, monetary value or class? Do urban homes mean more to their residents than these huts to those who used to live in them? Also, as the testimonies will show, people in Singur relate to the land they cultivate in a way that is significantly different from how we relate to our work places in the city. It means home and sometimes more than home to them. It is interesting what an archaic [Land Acquisition Act (1894)] and an entirely novel law [SEZ Act 2005] can achieve in tandem. We would like to see a detailed review of both these Acts and extensive amendments to both. We agree that the people of Singur (especially the landless labourers of Dobandi, who know no other skill but farming) need alternative sources of employment more than anything else. But these are not easy to come by, especially now, with the attention being diverted to the return of acquired land. Our demands or wishes never included driving out the TATAs. We know (from the farmers' testimonies) that much of the land acquired has been destroyed for agriculture. It will not be cultivable - perhaps for a long time to come. We strongly felt that the opposition, by fuelling the farmers' hopes of getting back their land, was playing what was only a political game. We have heard people in the government housing (near Dobandi) ruing their plight. They lamented the fact that nobody cared for them after the elections were over. But in most cases, they ended their diatribe with an unrestrained praise of the TMC so that people from the city (like us) did not go back thinking that the villagers have not thrown in their lot with the opposition. They seem to us to be catching at the last available straws of hope in the increasingly murky waters of power politics. The opposition, of course, is by now desperate not to be seen as an enemy of 'industrialisation' and therefore, ready to declare 'victory' on behalf of the people of Singur at the first chance available. It is difficult to decide who really is speaking for whom in this scenario and with what motives, but our suspicions are increasingly confirmed - the people of Singur, once again, will be the ones to lose, the ones who will pay the price for this power struggle that tokenises them but does not really listen to their voices. The testimonies in our report only make an attempt to record this lost speech. From citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 08:05:37 2008 From: citizensinitiativecal at gmail.com (Citizens' Initiative) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:05:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Citizens' Initiative's report on Singur (part 4) Message-ID: <63c17b480810311935q761806eeof3116a1f4c665a1e@mail.gmail.com> A timeline of events in Singur can be found at http://development-dialogues.blogspot.com/2008/02/singur-timeline-with-corroborative.html From indiaonedge at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 10:13:11 2008 From: indiaonedge at gmail.com (indiaonedge wordpress) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:13:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The World - NOT as we tell it Message-ID: <7b288a440810312143l9cfc0cbo372951d4834e832b@mail.gmail.com> The World - NOT as we tell it > on indiaonedge Does anyone remember Climate Change? The soon to disappear Polar Ice Cap? How about the War on Terrorism? Or the Rise of Asia and a rebalancing of World Powers? All so last year (or month, or week). One of our fallacies is believing that we have a complete picture of the world, that is within our control, and that we need to set right. It is not from the nature of capitalism, or in the scheming nature of the establishment or the dominant powers that crises are created, fretted over for a while, apparently dealt with, only exacerbating other smaller conditions, often taken advantage of to perpetrate agendas that otherwise might not have been possible to be accepted, and then swiftly forgotten at the appearance of a new crisis. It is ingrained in a world view shared by most of us. What seems to be changing however, is our fascination with, and almost breathless hunting down of what may be called a crisis. Something that challenges the core of our very existence and threatens 'life as we would like it to be' (And strangely seems to give us some sense of purpose). Life is never going to be what we want it to be. There is a world unfathomable, and much larger than our comprehension out there that is too complex to be fully held within political agendas, economic charts, or forms of organisation created by the human mind. Our failure is in believing we have mastered it all, and that we can now train the world along in the direction WE choose. Often the first faltering is at just the word WE. The real crises will creep on us when we are not looking. The attack on America was a real crisis that no one saw coming, or going. But the created crisis of the War on Terrorism and the Clash of Civilizations took up more legroom. The current economic crisis is not the end of the economy, or capitalism, or the World Order as we know it. It is surely going to be around for a while, but my guess is it will soon move into that part of our consciousness where the Polar Bears on their melting ice cap now reside. These all ARE real issues, and need real solutions and effort. But we need to be more sparing with our definition of crises. A real crisis would be not knowing where ones next meal is to come from, and how your children may be fed or sheltered. And as the gaily smiling faces around our most deprived regions tell us, they are handling that crisis quite well. Surely we could atleast try as much. http://indiaonedge.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/the-world-not-as-we-tell-it/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 14:11:09 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:11:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from raising their voices. Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for us to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we can support others. Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike some surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their cause by trying to create an opinion. Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We know where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play around and instead take a walk. I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in the Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 migrations in 10 centuries......... Now ...no more........ No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... Pawan Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear All, > > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > taken to ensure that this can happen. > > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > making. > > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > extractive and authoritarian state. > > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > need to be seen in this light. > > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > of the many displaced communities in India. > > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > stranglehold. > > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > > to a series of > > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > the improvement of camp infrastructure. > > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > Unfortunately, that is not the case. > > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > internally displaced communities in India are like. > > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > displacement in India. > > see - > > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > the ceasefire > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > Bodos during the 1990s > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > > (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > updates.) > > The site goes on to say - > > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > give a global estimate." > > ON RELIEF CAMPS > > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > IIJ, December 2003). " > > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > POPULATIONS > > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > p.68). > > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > overall receives much more support than displaced communities > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > > "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > of internal displacement in India. > > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > from that point of view, the situation of > > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > different. ' > > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > against oppression. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 14:25:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:25:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810260623s669c46c2s548ca1e68e8ad625@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810260623s669c46c2s548ca1e68e8ad625@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811010155u35a2cee0x1c7335a2b4a7c74b@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , How much does one get paid for these days ? I am sure not much with a journalist of low calibre. I cant even find your articles in the envelopes used by Moongfali walaas. Your association and love for JKLF is well known. And thats reason u hate us. Pawan On 10/26/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Kirdar, > > These right-wing individuals from the Kashmiri Pandit community do not > represent the entire community. The Kashmiri Pandits are a varied lot > and these individuals represent only a fanatic fringe who > unfortunately base their politics of hate on the pain of the entire > community. By doing so they insult they belittle of the community > every day, every moment, every email. Their participation on the > Reader-List, if you have followed it closely, is driven by a definite > goal - to drown out liberal progressive voices on any and everything, > simply by falsely accusing everyone else of hurting their fragile > "sentiments". They are here on the list to win an imagined war against > "leftists" and boy, they're winning! This is similar to the manner in > which they disrupt film screenings, or others' protests. Democracy is > not something they are really fond of. > > The bad name that these individuals are bringing to the Kashmiri > Pandit community is indeed unfortunate. However, there is a very > simple way you can eliminate their voices from your Gmail address.Go > to Settings > Filters > Create a new filter. Then in the "Form" field > write Aditya Raj Kaul. Click at "Next step" and then check the "Delete > it" box. You can create similar filters for Pawan Durani, rashneek > kher, kshmendra kaul, we wi - or hey, even me! > > After sending this mail I'm going to do just that to those names - so > I don't have to read their replies to this one! > > best > shivam > > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: > > > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > honestly. > > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > > moves on, yaar. > > > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > > other sane topic on this list. > > > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > > please write my obituary on Sarai) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 14:56:57 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:56:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> Actually Pawan I think what Shuddha is trying to say is that you too should shut up your lip service because by now its absolutely clear that is all it is. Why don't we all shut up our lip service to our various pet peeves and hurts. We are all exhausted with containing your victimization Pawan. Truly we are. Every time I see one more rant about what a terrible time you have had my eyes glaze over. Yaar everyone has had a terrible time. Take a quick survey on this little readers-list. I garauntee the amount of pain, suffering and hurt - historical, communal, personal, economic, religious - that will come tumbling out will astonish you. But the readers-list is not an analyst's couch Pawan and we are not therapists. We are weak and badly equipped to deal with the insurmountable mountain of your suffering. We are, many of us, barely equipped to deal with our own. So please, do not take umbrage at what Shuddha or Kirdar say. They are only expressing the frailty of the human psyche when confronted with a relentless barrage of undigested mulch. with respectful regards Aarti On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . > > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from > raising > their voices. > > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for us > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we can > support others. > > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike some > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their > cause by trying to create an opinion. > > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We know > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. > > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play > around and instead take a walk. > > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. > > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in the > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. > > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 > migrations in 10 centuries......... > > > Now ...no more........ > > > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > > > > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > > taken to ensure that this can happen. > > > > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > > making. > > > > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > > extractive and authoritarian state. > > > > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > > need to be seen in this light. > > > > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > > of the many displaced communities in India. > > > > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > > stranglehold. > > > > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > > > > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > > > > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > > > > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > > > > to a series of > > > > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > > > > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > > > > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > > the improvement of camp infrastructure. > > > > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > > > > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > > Unfortunately, that is not the case. > > > > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > > internally displaced communities in India are like. > > > > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > > displacement in India. > > > > see - > > > > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > > > > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > > > > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > > > > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > > the ceasefire > > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > > Bodos during the 1990s > > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > > > > (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > > updates.) > > > > The site goes on to say - > > > > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > > > > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > > give a global estimate." > > > > ON RELIEF CAMPS > > > > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > > > > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > > IIJ, December 2003). " > > > > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > > > > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > > > > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > > POPULATIONS > > > > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > > p.68). > > > > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > > overall receives much more support than displaced communities > > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > > > > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > > > > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > > > > "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > > > > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > > of internal displacement in India. > > > > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > > of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > > from that point of view, the situation of > > > > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > > > > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > > > > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > > different. ' > > > > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > > > > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > > against oppression. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 15:03:11 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:03:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811010233q38647712g7f8e0c40bdf024a6@mail.gmail.com> by the way, BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA GHALIB On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Actually Pawan I think what Shuddha is trying to say is that you too should > shut up your lip service because by now its absolutely clear that is all it > is. Why don't we all shut up our lip service to our various pet peeves and > hurts. We are all exhausted with containing your victimization Pawan. Truly > we are. Every time I see one more rant about what a terrible time you have > had my eyes glaze over. Yaar everyone has had a terrible time. Take a quick > survey on this little readers-list. I garauntee the amount of pain, > suffering and hurt - historical, communal, personal, economic, religious - > that will come tumbling out will astonish you. But the readers-list is not > an analyst's couch Pawan and we are not therapists. We are weak and badly > equipped to deal with the insurmountable mountain of your suffering. We are, > many of us, barely equipped to deal with our own. So please, do not take > umbrage at what Shuddha or Kirdar say. They are only expressing the frailty > of the human psyche when confronted with a relentless barrage of undigested > mulch. > > with respectful regards > Aarti > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Dear Shuddha, >> >> It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . >> >> Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from >> raising >> their voices. >> >> Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for us >> to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we can >> support others. >> >> Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike some >> surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> cause by trying to create an opinion. >> >> Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We know >> where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. >> >> Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play >> around and instead take a walk. >> >> I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. >> >> And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in the >> Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. >> >> We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 >> migrations in 10 centuries......... >> >> >> Now ...no more........ >> >> >> No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... >> >> >> Pawan >> >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> >> >> >> >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > >> > Dear All, >> > >> > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> > >> > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> > taken to ensure that this can happen. >> > >> > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> > making. >> > >> > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> > extractive and authoritarian state. >> > >> > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> > need to be seen in this light. >> > >> > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> > of the many displaced communities in India. >> > >> > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> > stranglehold. >> > >> > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> > >> > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> > >> > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> > >> > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> > >> > to a series of >> > >> > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> > >> > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> > >> > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> > the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> > >> > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> > >> > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> > Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> > >> > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> > internally displaced communities in India are like. >> > >> > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> > displacement in India. >> > >> > see - >> > >> > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> > >> > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> > >> > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> > >> > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> > the ceasefire >> > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> > Bodos during the 1990s >> > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> > >> > (these figures at the moment do not include thelarge numbers of >> > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> > updates.) >> > >> > The site goes on to say - >> > >> > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> > >> > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> > give a global estimate." >> > >> > ON RELIEF CAMPS >> > >> > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> > >> > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> > IIJ, December 2003). " >> > >> > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> > >> > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> > >> > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> > POPULATIONS >> > >> > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> > p.68). >> > >> > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> > overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> > >> > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> > >> > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> > >> > "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> > >> > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> > of internal displacement in India. >> > >> > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> > of his recent postings. Ifully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> > from that point of view, the situation of >> > >> > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> > >> > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> > >> > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> > different. ' >> > >> > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> > >> > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> > against oppression. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Shuddha >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat Nov 1 15:20:15 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:20:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Suggestion Message-ID: dear All, There are many different sensibility that populate this list. Why don't we make that as a base for a rigorous re-thinking of the contemporary life. My suggestion: Some intriguing and difficult texts could be suggested by list members and we all read and run a commentary on it. Maybe a text could run for 14 days and then another text could be brought in. This way we could make this list a lively thinking place. In schools/colleges we are all taught "debating" (bhahes) but rarely taught to "engage in dialogue" (samvad). So lets try out a few experiments to outdo our socialisations! warmly Jeebesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 15:36:38 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:36:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits submit memorandum to UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon in New Delhi Message-ID: <6353c690811010306nf8e1355s413aa08b228a1e25@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiri Pandits submit memorandum to UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon in New Delhi A joint delegation of up to ten Kashmiri Pandit groups submitted a memorandum to UN General Secretary Ban-Ki-Moon, who is visiting India, regarding their demands, which include, to be declared as IDPs Internally Displaced Persons. Pandits demand recognition as Internally Displaced Persons PTI New Delhi, Oct 31: Demanding that they be declared as Internally Displaced Persons, a group of Kashmiri Pandits on Friday held a protest here seeking intervention of UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon in the matter. The Pandits belonging to various organisations submitted a memorandum to Moon, who is on a two-day visit to India. They appealed to Moon to take cognisance of the plight of Pandits who had to leave their homes in the valley. Even 19 years after the mass exodus, more than 50,000 of these Kashmiri Pandit refugees are living in "pathetic conditions in uninhabitable refugee camps", they said. They alleged that successive Central and state governments had failed in protecting their rights. They also demanded the government set up a 'Commission of Enquiry' to establish the causes that led to the killings of Kashmiri Pandits. Check more here - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/10/kashmiri-pandits-submit-memorandum-to.html Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 15:40:37 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:40:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= Message-ID: <6353c690811010310u164164d6rb5685c3313f93be7@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By Indo-Asian News Service on Friday, October 31, 2008 Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that the community, which fled the Kashmir Valleyduring the peak of militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally displaced persons (IDPs). The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the community in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is on a two-day visit to India. "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community we, therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the 100-odd protestors, told IANS. "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had recognised Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of the insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community - should be removed from all records and communications relating to us henceforth," Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape persecution. "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but now we are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our own!" fumed Raj Raina, 37. Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' status. He is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, militantsthreatened us time and again - merge with us (with political and religious views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the insurgency. Amongst those present from the community were varsity students, who also held that the current situation was sordid. "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when we were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old student activist from Delhi University. "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian government to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. Link - http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Sat Nov 1 16:15:50 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 03:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Global Call Against Death Penalty Online Petition Message-ID: <947889.32461.qm@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> The UNGA resolution Calling for the Global Moratorium on Death Penalty is once again up for voting which may be as soon as 6th of November 2008. There is an online petition which will be faxed along with thousands of letters of persuasion to the permanent mission of India to UN, PM, MOE and the Home Ministry. http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?antidp Please sign the petition and circulate as widely as possible. You could innovate and use your own methods to persuade the government of India to vote in favour of the resolution. The details are pasted below: Dear Sir / Madam, In the context of a resolution calling for a global moratorium on death penalty at the (ongoing) 63rd session of the United Nations General Assembly, Amnesty International India (AI India) is engaged in a campaign, asking the Government of India to take this opportunity and declare a moratorium on death penalty. The resolution is supported by countries from all regions of the world and would be an important milestone towards achieving the General Assembly's stated aim: the world wide abolition of the death penalty. AI India is taking initiative to get a group of eminent people write an open letter to the Prime Minister. The letter is to urge the Indian Government to support the cross-regional initiative to table a resolution on a global moratorium on executions at the 63rd session of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) started on 19th September 2008. Such a resolution would facilitate an informed, objective discussion on death penalty in the country. Last year Indian Government in the Third Committee defended the vote against the moratorium citing that it was largely a question to be determined by sovereign states and that the draft resolution went against India's statutory law. The letter is appended. You can also sign the same at http://www.petitiononline.com/antidp/petition.html. We strongly encourage you to circulate it widely. The petition may also be accessed through AII website www.amnesty.org.in We thank you for your support in the campaign. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 17:17:49 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:17:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811010447u28f10965x8c356fecaded60d3@mail.gmail.com> AaAri, I shouldnt ask you to shut up. Infact i would love to hear you in person some day. You must be a good singer........ However if you have left your braun back home, the subject was raised by Shuddha , whom you seem to have been defending.It is better you ask him to stop. I can understand your leftist leaning and your commitment towards a fellow comrade , but have some sense....check what started it . I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also it is not my paid job. Till the time , some of you with certain defeatist mentality occupy this stage , you would meet the resistence. Love us or hate us........ Better to love.......that is how peace starts..... By any chance .....are u a JNU alumni ? Pawan Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind On 11/1/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Actually Pawan I think what Shuddha is trying to say is that you too should > shut up your lip service because by now its absolutely clear that is all it > is. Why don't we all shut up our lip service to our various pet peeves and > hurts. We are all exhausted with containing your victimization Pawan. Truly > we are. Every time I see one more rant about what a terrible time you have > had my eyes glaze over. Yaar everyone has had a terrible time. Take a quick > survey on this little readers-list. I garauntee the amount of pain, > suffering and hurt - historical, communal, personal, economic, religious - > that will come tumbling out will astonish you. But the readers-list is not > an analyst's couch Pawan and we are not therapists. We are weak and badly > equipped to deal with the insurmountable mountain of your suffering. We are, > many of us, barely equipped to deal with our own. So please, do not take > umbrage at what Shuddha or Kirdar say. They are only expressing the frailty > of the human psyche when confronted with a relentless barrage of undigested > mulch. > > with respectful regards > Aarti > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Dear Shuddha, >> >> It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . >> >> Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from >> raising >> their voices. >> >> Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for >> us >> to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we >> can >> support others. >> >> Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike >> some >> surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> cause by trying to create an opinion. >> >> Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We know >> where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. >> >> Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play >> around and instead take a walk. >> >> I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. >> >> And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in >> the >> Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. >> >> We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 >> migrations in 10 centuries......... >> >> >> Now ...no more........ >> >> >> No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... >> >> >> Pawan >> >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> >> >> >> >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > >> > Dear All, >> > >> > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> > >> > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> > taken to ensure that this can happen. >> > >> > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> > making. >> > >> > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> > extractive and authoritarian state. >> > >> > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> > need to be seen in this light. >> > >> > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> > of the many displaced communities in India. >> > >> > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> > stranglehold. >> > >> > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> > >> > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> > >> > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> > >> > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> > >> > to a series of >> > >> > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> > >> > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> > >> > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> > the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> > >> > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> > >> > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> > Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> > >> > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> > internally displaced communities in India are like. >> > >> > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> > displacement in India. >> > >> > see - >> > >> > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> > >> > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> > >> > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> > >> > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> > the ceasefire >> > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> > Bodos during the 1990s >> > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> > >> > (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> > updates.) >> > >> > The site goes on to say - >> > >> > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> > >> > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> > give a global estimate." >> > >> > ON RELIEF CAMPS >> > >> > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> > >> > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> > IIJ, December 2003). " >> > >> > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> > >> > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> > >> > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> > POPULATIONS >> > >> > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> > p.68). >> > >> > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> > overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> > >> > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> > >> > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> > >> > "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> > >> > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> > of internal displacement in India. >> > >> > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> > of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> > from that point of view, the situation of >> > >> > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> > >> > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> > >> > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> > different. ' >> > >> > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> > >> > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> > against oppression. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Shuddha >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 17:30:20 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:30:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] my name is Mahishasura ( a ghazal numa image ) Message-ID: <47e122a70811010500w370bbd23p7db89175f9215fd@mail.gmail.com> dear all please click to see-- my name is mahishasura, ( left) well, i have so many names, so what ) right http://indersalim.livejournal.com with love and regards is From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 17:47:16 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:47:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811010447u28f10965x8c356fecaded60d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811010447u28f10965x8c356fecaded60d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990811010517ob4b3716g43710317599816e3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Keeping the irrelevance of Aarti's singing voice aside, would like to point out that you talk of love and peace, and then talk of hanging - not to mention your sign off where a state in the news for throwing out migrants is being praised. Shuddha's mail (and a long one at that) made some points - essentially that the Kashmiri Pandit's are displaced, and that they've got the most support amongst the displaced communities, and that a segment (Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) is dividing the community. If you disagree, place the facts to support your reason and let's talk, else what you say has no foundation. Take a clear look at what was said, your response and what you stand for, as it certainly is unclear to me. Rgds, Partha .................................. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > AaAri, > > I shouldnt ask you to shut up. Infact i would love to hear you in person > some day. You must be a good singer........ > > However if you have left your braun back home, the subject was raised by > Shuddha , whom you seem to have been defending.It is better you ask him to > stop. > > I can understand your leftist leaning and your commitment towards a fellow > comrade , but have some sense....check what started it . > > I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also it is > not my paid job. > > Till the time , some of you with certain defeatist mentality occupy this > stage , you would meet the resistence. > > Love us or hate us........ > > Better to love.......that is how peace starts..... > > By any chance .....are u a JNU alumni ? > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > On 11/1/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > Actually Pawan I think what Shuddha is trying to say is that you too > should > > shut up your lip service because by now its absolutely clear that is all > it > > is. Why don't we all shut up our lip service to our various pet peeves > and > > hurts. We are all exhausted with containing your victimization Pawan. > Truly > > we are. Every time I see one more rant about what a terrible time you > have > > had my eyes glaze over. Yaar everyone has had a terrible time. Take a > quick > > survey on this little readers-list. I garauntee the amount of pain, > > suffering and hurt - historical, communal, personal, economic, religious > - > > that will come tumbling out will astonish you. But the readers-list is > not > > an analyst's couch Pawan and we are not therapists. We are weak and badly > > equipped to deal with the insurmountable mountain of your suffering. We > are, > > many of us, barely equipped to deal with our own. So please, do not take > > umbrage at what Shuddha or Kirdar say. They are only expressing the > frailty > > of the human psyche when confronted with a relentless barrage of > undigested > > mulch. > > > > with respectful regards > > Aarti > > > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > >> Dear Shuddha, > >> > >> It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . > >> > >> Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from > >> raising > >> their voices. > >> > >> Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for > >> us > >> to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we > >> can > >> support others. > >> > >> Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike > >> some > >> surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their > >> cause by trying to create an opinion. > >> > >> Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We > know > >> where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. > >> > >> Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play > >> around and instead take a walk. > >> > >> I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. > >> > >> And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in > >> the > >> Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. > >> > >> We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 > >> migrations in 10 centuries......... > >> > >> > >> Now ...no more........ > >> > >> > >> No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > >> > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > >> > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > >> > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > >> > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >> > > >> > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > >> > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > >> > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > >> > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > >> > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > >> > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > >> > taken to ensure that this can happen. > >> > > >> > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > >> > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > >> > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >> > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > >> > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > >> > making. > >> > > >> > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > >> > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > >> > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > >> > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > >> > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > >> > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > >> > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >> > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > >> > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > >> > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > >> > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > >> > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > >> > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > >> > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > >> > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >> > extractive and authoritarian state. > >> > > >> > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > >> > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > >> > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > >> > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > >> > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > >> > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > >> > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > >> > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > >> > need to be seen in this light. > >> > > >> > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > >> > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > >> > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > >> > of the many displaced communities in India. > >> > > >> > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >> > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > >> > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > >> > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >> > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > >> > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > >> > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > >> > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > >> > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > >> > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > >> > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > >> > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > >> > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > >> > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > >> > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >> > stranglehold. > >> > > >> > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > >> > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > >> > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > >> > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >> > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > >> > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > >> > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > >> > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > >> > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >> > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >> > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > >> > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > >> > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > >> > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > >> > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > >> > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >> > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > >> > > >> > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > >> > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >> > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > >> > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > >> > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > >> > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >> > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >> > > >> > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >> > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > >> > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > >> > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >> > > >> > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > >> > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > >> > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > >> > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > >> > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >> > > >> > to a series of > >> > > >> > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > >> > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > >> > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > >> > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > >> > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >> > > >> > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > >> > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > >> > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > >> > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > >> > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > >> > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > >> > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >> > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > >> > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >> > > >> > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > >> > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > >> > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > >> > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > >> > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > >> > the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >> > > >> > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > >> > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > >> > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > >> > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > >> > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > >> > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > >> > > >> > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > >> > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > >> > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > >> > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > >> > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > >> > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > >> > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >> > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > >> > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > >> > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > >> > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >> > Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >> > > >> > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > >> > internally displaced communities in India are like. > >> > > >> > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > >> > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > >> > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > >> > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > >> > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > >> > displacement in India. > >> > > >> > see - > >> > > >> > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > >> > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > >> > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > >> > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >> > > >> > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >> > > >> > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > >> > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >> > > >> > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > >> > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > >> > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > >> > the ceasefire > >> > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > >> > Bodos during the 1990s > >> > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >> > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > >> > > >> > (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > >> > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > >> > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > >> > updates.) > >> > > >> > The site goes on to say - > >> > > >> > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > >> > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > >> > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > >> > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > >> > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > >> > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > >> > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >> > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > >> > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > >> > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > >> > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > >> > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > >> > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > >> > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > >> > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > >> > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > >> > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > >> > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > >> > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > >> > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > >> > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > >> > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >> > > >> > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > >> > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > >> > give a global estimate." > >> > > >> > ON RELIEF CAMPS > >> > > >> > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > >> > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > >> > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > >> > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > >> > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > >> > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > >> > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > >> > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > >> > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > >> > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > >> > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > >> > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > >> > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > >> > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > >> > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > >> > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > >> > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > >> > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > >> > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >> > > >> > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > >> > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > >> > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >> > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > >> > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > >> > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > >> > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > >> > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > >> > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > >> > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > >> > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > >> > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > >> > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > >> > IIJ, December 2003). " > >> > > >> > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >> > > >> > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > >> > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > >> > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > >> > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > >> > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > >> > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > >> > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > >> > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > >> > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > >> > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >> > > >> > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > >> > POPULATIONS > >> > > >> > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > >> > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > >> > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > >> > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > >> > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > >> > p.68). > >> > > >> > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > >> > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > >> > overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >> > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >> > > >> > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > >> > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > >> > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > >> > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > >> > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > >> > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > >> > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >> > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > >> > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > >> > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > >> > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > >> > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > >> > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > >> > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > >> > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > >> > > >> > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >> > > >> > "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > >> > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > >> > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >> > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >> > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > >> > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > >> > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > >> > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > >> > > >> > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > >> > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >> > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > >> > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > >> > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > >> > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > >> > of internal displacement in India. > >> > > >> > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >> > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > >> > of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > >> > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > >> > from that point of view, the situation of > >> > > >> > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > >> > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > >> > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > >> > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > >> > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > >> > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >> > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > >> > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >> > > >> > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > >> > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > >> > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > >> > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > >> > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >> > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >> > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > >> > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > >> > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > >> > > >> > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > >> > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > >> > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > >> > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > >> > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > >> > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > >> > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > >> > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > >> > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > >> > different. ' > >> > > >> > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > >> > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > >> > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > >> > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > >> > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > >> > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > >> > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > >> > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > >> > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > >> > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > >> > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > >> > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > >> > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > >> > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > >> > > >> > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > >> > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > >> > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > >> > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > >> > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > >> > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > >> > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > >> > against oppression. > >> > > >> > regards, > >> > > >> > Shuddha > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 18:38:37 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:38:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811010608y39995031m75a41dbd5f301b4b@mail.gmail.com> dear Pawan, Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a deep commitment. And if the Brahman dies in the temple of idols, bury him the Kabba. # Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief ( Imaan ) here, is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation well, if you can please convey the below mentioned couplet to Jai Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it is again BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA without malice towards one and all is On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . > > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from raising > their voices. > > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for us > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we can > support others. > > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike some > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their > cause by trying to create an opinion. > > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We know > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. > > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play > around and instead take a walk. > > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. > > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in the > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. > > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 > migrations in 10 centuries......... > > > Now ...no more........ > > > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> making. >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> need to be seen in this light. >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> stranglehold. >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> to a series of >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> displacement in India. >> >> see - >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> the ceasefire >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> Bodos during the 1990s >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> updates.) >> >> The site goes on to say - >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> give a global estimate." >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> POPULATIONS >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> p.68). >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> of internal displacement in India. >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> from that point of view, the situation of >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> different. ' >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> against oppression. >> >> regards, >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 1 22:18:20 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 22:18:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rantings of a pissed off Paki Message-ID: <9c06aab30811010948g44f1eb95s1deed7ddd50e4b85@mail.gmail.com> Some say blogs are not in vogue anymore (http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/16-11/st_essay), but you'd be surprised at the range of honest voices that you still find in the blogosphere [as opposed to mailing lists, which went out of fashion ages ago :)]. I found this response to the Jaipur blasts of 14 May. This sort of confessed ranting in a blog often sounds like a person talking to himself - and what could be more honest? No posturing, no claims of unequivocal truths, no invective. This of course changes if the blogger becomes a star, gets a book contract and looks at the blog stats all day. Reading Pakistanis online is always fun. Like seeing yourself in a mirror you never knew existed. So please invite yourself for a few moments inside the mind of a "pissed off Paki" in New York... best shivam o o o o To the Indians I think it's hilarious that Indians still think of Pakistan as the enemy, when it's clear we don't even stand a chance anymore. This isn't the 60's when we actually had some semblance of military prowesses, we're nothing more than a nuisance factor at this point. Besides, we have better things to worry about, like our own terrorism issues, political struggles and volatile economy being hammered by the high price of oil. I would argue that Naxalites are probably a more strategic threat, seeing how they've started to go after something very critical to India - infrastructure. The recent attacks on the Essar facilities is a dangerous sign, seeing those type of facilities are crucial to India becoming the economic power that it wants to be. HERE: http://pissedoffpaki.blogspot.com/2008/05/another-blast-another-post.html From dan.ayyaar at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 23:49:43 2008 From: dan.ayyaar at gmail.com (Danish Husain) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 23:49:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Suggestion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61cdd2df0811011119n68b0fdadx6127a93968efc12e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Jeebesh: I've been actively (read passive reader) on the reader list for a month and non-actively you know since when. And I have been many times dragged in the debate of the democratic spirit we have on the list (offline and again passively) but even after the frustation many feel about few hogging the list, I feel the great triumph of the list is the freedom of speech we have here even if it degenerates many times. (Gosh, what an awfully long sentence). I support your idea but with a caveat that we might perpetrate a certain intellectualism. Thus we may have an article like that but the participation again should be voluntary. And if the debate on this so called article is a drag on few people's inbox then be it. When we can suffer trash then why not a good debate. Let me pull out something from my little closet. Anyway, it's been a whole bag of emotions and I am enjoying my sojourn here so for. :-) Cheers D On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear All, > > There are many different sensibility that populate this list. > > Why don't we make that as a base for a rigorous re-thinking of the > contemporary life. > > My suggestion: > > Some intriguing and difficult texts could be suggested by list members > and we all read and run a commentary on it. Maybe a text could run for > 14 days and then another text could be brought in. This way we could > make this list a lively thinking place. > > In schools/colleges we are all taught "debating" (bhahes) but rarely > taught to "engage in dialogue" (samvad). So lets try out a few > experiments to outdo our socialisations! > > warmly > Jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 03:35:16 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:05:16 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 167 In-Reply-To: <1944bc230810300704r4d8b8c5vf9771bb4179465d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1944bc230810300704r4d8b8c5vf9771bb4179465d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920811011505gede7c43ve5d8a89fa776e3b8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, I would further like to add that the Forest Rights Bill throws up a whole new set of problems. When i was last acquainted with it, it was still a bill - but I think it is now an act with repercussions for almost a million forest dwellers. A fairly comprehensive legal brief may be found at http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/apr/law-forest.htm As it notes, there are are problems of identification, the furnishing of evidence etc etc. Of particular interest is the designation of the category of the forest-dweller. Am eager to hear perspectives from those who have studied it in some detail. As Atreyee points out - it is interesting to understand which categories of the displaced are offered the option of victimhood, and which categories arent. Which groups are designated "victims of terror" who must be sympathised with and which groups (like scheduled tribes in chattisgarh, madhya pradesh, and jharkhand) fall into the category of eggs that must be broken to make the national omelette. best a. On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:04 AM, atreyee majumder wrote: > > Dear Shuddhabrata, > > Thank you for an exceptional post, and for leading us to the website. > > I just wanted to throw in a random thought on creation of various kinds of > victimhoods- it probably tells us something about a state edifice - that has > bestowed the kind of compensatory benefits on the Kashmiri Pandits that you > describe, and the figures that you mention for the ones that get located in > their victim cloaks in relief camps. How odd that property rights of > environmental refugees (many of whose earlier homes are on mineral-rich > land, that is of key improtance to industrial expansion) should not be > termed in registers of state as ''property''? How odd that some lives are > easily monetarily compensated and relocated, and some lives and concomitant > claims on justice,dignity, liberty,memory, nostalgia are more perecious than > others? > > Also, it might be useful to think about dislocated peoples that did not get > mapped onto relief camps? That will, in future, variously be called migrant, > illegal occupant, economic parasite- on the rural urban continuum. Their > losses will probably never find voice in narratives of injustice. > > And another random thought- do the relief camp facts and figures lead us > into some conjectures about who gets tied to victimhood (the camp being a > powerful metaphor for fortresses that house the bare lives, so they can > easily be seen, headcounted, incorporated into statistics, shown off to the > UN/HRW) and who lives the language of injustice? The Kashmiri Pandit > narrative of loss, or in other spheres, the narratives of Partition losses > on both sides form folklore and nostalgia and sheer desperation for others. > Not to belittle anybody's loss of anything, but perhaps, a question that we > neglect often is- who lost? > > Regards, > > Atreyee > > On 10/29/08, reader-list-request at sarai.net > wrote: > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > > Kashmir (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) > > 2. Dj Spooky Sponsors a screening of Iraqi Films, 10/30/08 > > (Paul Miller) > > 3. Fwd: Invitation for Adivasi Sangama 2008 (Anivar Aravind) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:45:34 +0530 > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement from Kashmir > > To: sarai list > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes; > > format=flowed > > > > Dear All, > > > > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > > > > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > > taken to ensure that this can happen. > > > > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > > making. > > > > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmirand > > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > > extractive and authoritarian state. > > > > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > > need to be seen in this light. > > > > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > > of the many displaced communities in India. > > > > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > > stranglehold. > > > > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > > > > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > > > > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > > > > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > > > > to a series of > > > > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > > > > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > > > > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > > the improvement of camp infrastructure. > > > > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > > > > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > > Unfortunately, that is not the case. > > > > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > > internally displaced communities in India are like. > > > > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > > displacement in India. > > > > see - > > > > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > > > > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > > > > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > > > > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > > the ceasefire > > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > > Bodos during the 1990s > > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > > > > (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > > updates.) > > > > The site goes on to say - > > > > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > > > > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > > give a global estimate." > > > > ON RELIEF CAMPS > > > > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > > > > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > > IIJ, December 2003). " > > > > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > > > > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > > > > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > > POPULATIONS > > > > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > > p.68). > > > > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > > overall receives much more support than displaced communities > > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > > > > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > > > > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > > > > "Available reports indicate that more than21 million people are > > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > > > > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > > of internal displacement in India. > > > > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > > of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > > from that point of view, the situation of > > > > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > > > > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > > > > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > > different. ' > > > > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > > > > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > > against oppression. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:44:05 -0400 > > From: Paul Miller > > Subject: [Reader-list] Dj Spooky Sponsors a screening of Iraqi Films, > > 10/30/08 > > To: sarai list > > Message-ID: <22123F5C-FE23-4122-9D15-5E5948FC0F88 at earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; format=flowed; > > delsp=yes > > > > Hello people - there's an interesting event some friends of mine have > > put together to support some short films that have been made in Iraq > > in the last couple of months and years. It's a pre-election screening > > of some on-the-ground reminders about what has gone wrong in the last > > 8 years, not only in the U.S. but in one of the most devastated areas > > of the world to experience the Bush Administration's foreign policy: > > Iraq. > > > > There will be a mini reception after the screening. > > > > Oct 30, 2008 at 7pm > > > > ArteEast, Paul D. Miller (aka DJ Spooky) and Bidoun > > Present a Special Pre-Election Screening: > > IRAQI SHORT FILMS > > HOW WE FIGHT: CONSCRIPTS, MERCENARIES, TERRORISTS, AND PEACEKEEPERS > > by Mauro Andrizzi (Argentina, 2008, 94 min DigiBeta) > > > > When: October 30, 2008 7:00 PM > > Where: Cantor Film Center, New York University, > > 36 East 8th St, New York City > > > > > > > > >>>> Iraqi Short Films > > >>>> by Mauro Andrizzi (Argentina, 2008, 94 min DigiBeta) > > >>>> > > >>>> HOW WE FIGHT: CONSCRIPTS, MERCENARIES, TERRORISTS, AND PEACEKEEPERS > > >>>> Curated by Irina Leimbacher, Kino21 (www.kino21.org) > > >>>> > > >>>> When: October 30, 2008 7:00 PM > > >>>> Where: Cantor Film Center, New York University, 36 East 8th St, > > >>>> New York City > > >>>> The first installment in Kino21's series that explores soldiering > > >>>> and war from the point of view of those on the ground,Iraqi Short > > >>>> Films is a compilation of short videos shot in the midst of war > > >>>> by American and British soldiers, Iraqi militia members, and > > >>>> corporate workers. These are not "films" per se. They are a mix > > >>>> of slices of life recorded on video (many shot while firing on > > >>>> the enemy or being fired upon), pithy propaganda pieces, and > > >>>> soldiers' visions of war as just another music video. They are > > >>>> crudely shot fragments, some rife with raw fear, some gloating > > >>>> over momentary victory. Filmed mainly as records, for friends, > > >>>> family, or fellow fighters, and at one point or another put on > > >>>> the web or on local television, the pieces were culled by > > >>>> Andrizzi over several months. Ranging from the banal to the > > >>>> intense, from the shocking to the darkly humorous, Andrizzi's > > >>>> compilation depicts war as experienced, articulated, and vividly > > >>>> imagined by those actually fighting and dying in it. > > >>>> > > >>>> Post-screening discussion with Anjali Kamat, Producer, Democracy > > >>>> Now! > > >>>> > > >>>> Watch Trailer > > >>>> http://www.arteeast.org/pages/cinemaeast/series/Fall-2008/541/ > > > > >>>> Click here for more information and to purchase advance tickets > > >>>> > > http://www.arteeast.org/pages/cinemaeast/series/Fall-2008/?section=extra&id=2 > > >>>> Mauro Andrizzi is an Argentinean scriptwriter and filmmaker born > > >>>> in Mar del Plata in 1980. He studied scriptwriting and graduated > > >>>> from the ENERC (National Film School), Buenos Aires, in 2001. He > > >>>> wrote his first short films as a student 'Blue Room' (1999), > > >>>> 'Terminal Beach' (2000), 'Three versions of a robbery' (2000), > > >>>> 'Neighbours' (2001) and the film-thesis 'Rain' (2001), and worked > > >>>> in several TV shows in Buenos Aires after his graduation. Since > > >>>> 2001, he has been a programmer for the Mar del Plata > > >>>> International Film Festival (Argentina). His works have been > > >>>> screened at major international film festivals. They include > > >>>> 'Color and Pixel' (2006), a documentary short film shot at the > > >>>> Museum of Art History in Vienna, 'Mono' (2007, documentary/ > > >>>> feature film) and 'Iraqi Short Films' (2008), a compilation of > > >>>> video snippets shot by a cross section of amateur documentarians. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:24:02 +0530 > > From: "Anivar Aravind" > > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Invitation for Adivasi Sangama 2008 > > To: "Reader List" , Greenyouth > > , > > "fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > > > > Message-ID: > > <35f96d470810292054x698311e5rd4f8b7cf5ce61742 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 167 > > ******************************************** > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 03:42:53 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:12:53 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690811010310u164164d6rb5685c3313f93be7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811010310u164164d6rb5685c3313f93be7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920811011512j6dbfe12q9b6cf81e3d986699@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated plebiscite as well. a. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By Indo-Asian > News Service on > Friday, October 31, 2008 > > Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that > the community, which fled the Kashmir > Valleyduring the peak of > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > displaced persons (IDPs). > > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the community > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is on > a two-day visit to India. > > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community we, > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had recognised > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of the > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community - should > be removed from all records and communications relating to us henceforth," > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape persecution. > > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but now we > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our own!" > fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' status. He > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > militantsthreatened us time and > again - merge with us (with political and religious > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the insurgency. > > Amongst those present from the community were varsity > students, > who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when we > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old student > activist from Delhi University. > > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian government > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > Link - > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 08:09:05 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 22:39:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorism: the gathering storm (The Hindu) Message-ID: <5E2667F990964B0991835433600DD8CD@tara> Terrorism: the gathering storm Even a government that often appears to have its eyes glued shut could not have failed to read the message delivered by the Assam serial bombings: that great dangers lie ahead for a nation facing a sustained terror offensive of unprecedented lethality. It is too early to come to any firm opinion on which group carried out Thursday's attack. At this point, many experts suspect the hand of the Harkat ul-Jihad-e-Islami - a feared jihadist group that has carried out dozens of bombings in India and Bangladesh. HUJI clearly hopes to exploit the communal situation in Assam, which recently saw brutal clashes between Muslims and Bodo adivasis. Investigators believe HUJI was responsible for last month's bombing in Agartala - the first-ever jihadist attack in Tripura. Four HUJI operatives were killed in a recent encounter along the India-Bangladesh border at Dhurbi and several HUJI members are known to have crossed the border. Assam authorities believe the Islamist group would not be able to mount an operation of this scale without logistical support from the United Liberation Front of Asom. ULFA has denied any role in the bombings but its past record of collaboration with Bangladesh-based Islamist groups lends some weight to the suspicion. What the Government of India needs to do is to take seriously the strategic context of the terror campaign of which the Assam bombings are a part. Jihadists across South Asia have gained strength over the past two years. In southern Afghanistan, they have registered military successes that have made high British military officials warn that the war against the Taliban cannot be won. Jihadists have taken de facto control of large swathes of Pakistan's north-west. Bangladesh, which on the day of the Assam bombings put HUJI chief Mufti Mohammad Hannan and 21 operatives on trial for a 2004 grenade attack on former Prime Minister Khalida Zia, has failed to break the powerful terror networks the country is home to. In India, too, jihadists have acquired unprecedented influence - in no small measure because of the abject failure of the Indian state and political system to check and combat Hindutva-led communal violence. All this points to a gathering storm. The United Progressive Alliance is fast losing its legitimacy on this defining issue as a general election nears. Far too many Indians have died for it to claim it is doing the state's first duty - protecting the lives and elementary liberties of its citizens. It is time a change was made at the helm of the Union Home Ministry, if only to demonstrate that collective responsibility cannot possibly mean that nobody takes the rap for a system's appalling failure. From rana at ranadasgupta.com Sun Nov 2 10:04:19 2008 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:04:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How police kill poor boys to improve their criminal-catching statistics Message-ID: <490D2DCB.4010505@ranadasgupta.com> UPPING THE BODY COUNT Not that hard, when any body will do Oct 30th 2008 | BOGOTÁ From The Economist print edition IT IS the kind of outrage that Colombians hoped belonged to the past rather than the present. Over the course of this year, a score of unemployed young men disappeared from their homes in Soacha, a poor suburb of Bogotá, only to turn up dead, apparently killed in combat by the army, several hundred miles farther north. There was speculation that they had been offered jobs by paramilitary groups. But as investigations have proceeded, the truth turns out to be even worse. The young men appear to have been kidnapped, turned over to army units and then murdered in order to inflate the body count of dead guerrillas. After three army colonels were dismissed over the case, President Álvaro Uribe and his defence minister, Juan Manuel Santos, took more drastic action on October 29th. They announced the firing of three generals and 24 other officers or NCOs, in the biggest purge of the army for a decade. A military investigation had found that “in some parts of the army there has been negligence”, Mr Uribe said. “There may be members of the armed forces involved in murder.” The government has ordered the attorney-general’s office to investigate, and officials say that any officers who are charged will be tried by civilian, not military, courts. Worryingly, the case of the Soacha youths may not be an isolated one. There have been reports of similar disappearances of young men in two other parts of the country. In a report released this week, Amnesty International, a human-rights group, says that the security forces were responsible for 330 “extrajudicial executions” last year, up from an average of 220 a year in 2004-06. Amnesty says paramilitaries killed around 300 civilians last year and guerrillas about 260. The government’s own watchdog is investigating 930 suspected killings by the army. Officials argue that overall levels of violence have fallen steadily over the past decade, as a result of the demobilisation of many of the right-wing paramilitary groups and the army’s success against the FARC guerrillas of the left. The government has been shaken by previous reports of army units killing civilians and passing them off as dead guerrillas. Last year the defence ministry adopted a new policy that measures the army’s success by the number of guerrilla captures or desertions, rather than the body count. In firing the generals commanding two divisions where abuses occurred, the defence ministry appears to be sending a message that it will hold commanders responsible for ensuring that the new policy is carried out. The purge follows two other recent cases in which Mr Uribe has been embarrassed by the actions of his subordinates. The government was forced to order an investigation over a video aired on CNN which showed that, contrary to their denials, police opened fire on thousands of Indian marchers demanding land, killing two protesters. And the director of intelligence resigned after it was revealed that a mid-level official in her agency had spied on Gustavo Petro, an opposition senator. The only good news for the security forces was the escape of Óscar Tulio Lizcano, a former senator who had been held as a hostage for eight years by the FARC. Several months ago the army identified the camp in the jungles of western Colombia where he was held. Troops surrounded the camp, cutting off supplies. The guerrilla commander guarding Mr Lizcano opted to desert, taking his hostage with him. The military operations which achieved this happy ending were “an honour for the Colombian armed forces”, Mr Uribe declared. Sadly, that honour appears to have been tarnished by the murder of innocent civilians elsewhere in the country. From rama.sangye at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 10:29:50 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:29:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Communialism Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811012159y258f6338p53b2bc55d00338af@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends Here is an essay on communalism by Dr MKA Siddiqui, eminent anthropologist, of Kolkata. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................... COMMUNALISM : AN IGNORED MALADY M.K.A.Siddiqui Retarded development or persistent downward mobility of a minority, particularly of ethnic character, within a participatory democratic system, and its recession in the fields of education, employment as well as its frequent subjection to acts of barbarism, reducing it to a grossly disempowered group, should normally be a matter of concern for a civilized society. The situation will demand attention of all fair minded people, not only in the interest of the suffering humanity, justice and fairplay, but also of peace and tranquility and larger interest of the country. A general awareness of such a reality, its identification and development of a consciousness of its potential harm to the social system, coupled with a persistent endeavour to develop a genuine concern for the suffering humanity, are some of the essential prerequisites for the ameliorative and corrective measures. This is however, not an easy task, though it remains an unavoidable necessity, and inadequate attention to the problem must be a cause for despair. Observing the case of Muslims in India one will find a situation not dissimilar to this. Constituting country's largest minority their persistent disempowerment has been so steady and systematic that it has assumed a pattern which has begun to be deemed as natural and normal. Attempt to seek a change in the established pattern is rendered difficult. What is most regrettable is that any voice against this raises eye-brows branded as 'un-secular' and 'anti-national'. Criticism from outside the community is termed as 'pampering' or 'minorityism', while those from within as 'parochialism' and 'communalism', having the objective of frightening against voicing grievances. The anxiety for not being accused for violating the 'secular norms' and fear of being branded as parochial, if the set norms get violated, is exemplified by what Qurratulain Haider, a prominent literary figure and recipient of the nation's most prestigious awards said. When asked to write on the happenings in Gujarat, she replied "who will speak the truth these days"? Does it not tell a lot on the prevalent socio-political situation in the country, particularly when it comes to issues relating to minority? Dominant – minority relationship within Indian socio-political system presents a variety of situations. Numerically significant minorities are watched with greater anxiety or apprehension, as a result they are subjected to unfair competition, censorship and conscious denial of opportunities and resources, while numerically less significant ones pass on unnoticed, and in some cases receive more than their due, and often happen to excel beyond proportion. The demographic feature of comparative 'numerical significance' and the cultural feature of 'disjunction' as opposed to 'conjunction' with the culture of the dominant, are not positive factors in favour of the numerically significant Muslim minority in India. These are, however, not the sole factors behind strong negative feelings against them. There are several other factors which are positive, including racial and linguistic affinities between the majority and the minority – as well as shared values and manners and customs which remain obscured and forgotten. The colonial historiography which continues to be part of our curriculum of resulting in a communal perception of history, the persistence of the irrational attitude of identifying Muslims with medieval rulers and most importantly, the comparatively recent development of the utilization of divisive policies in the sphere of politics and gaining power. This naked self - interest keeps the negative feelings alive and motivates them to burst into violence whenever it is needed. Communal violence has become so frequent and so brutal that it has a deadening effect on the soul and seems to have stopped pricking the conscience. The pressure and persistence of strong negative feelings and their manifestations in attitudes and behaviours of the relevant sections of the dominant, having adverse effects on the socio-economic and political life of the minority, does not appear to be a cause of concern in relevant circles, though it is recorded in authentic official reports such as Gopal Singh High Power Panel and Sachar committee, as also a clear indication of the disastrous effects of this attitude on the socio-economic condition of the community. It is difficult to persuade the dominant to believe that basically *Muslims have a vested interest in communal peace while an influential segment of the dominant has a vested interest in communal discord*. The latter in collusion with the Western forces is bent upon maligning Islam and Muslims, ignoring its own long term interest as well as that of the country as a whole. Method and techniques adopted for this purpose are ingenious and innovative. Factors directed towards a systematic disempowerment of the Muslim minority are so clearly visible that they do not need elaboration. Only a few well known facts may make the point more clear. Disproportionately higher percentage of Muslims may be found among the inmates of the jail, while their number in government jobs is far below the percentage of their population. Concentration of Muslims below the poverty line is much larger than of other country men. Muslim youths are quite often hounded by law and order machinery, usually on false pretexts and baseless grounds. Cases of subjecting Muslims to false encounters are not unknown and even women are not spared. Cases of discrimination in matters of humanitarian aids and compensation to victims of communal violence are not uncommon. It takes decades to sanction compensation to riot victims and its delivery is made complicated, difficult, time consuming and sometimes impossible. Does it not sound incredible that in this great metropolis of Calcutta the illiteracy rate among the Muslim population is higher that what it was in 1947, on the eve of independence? 92 per cent of the of children of school going age do not have schools to go, and not more than 4 per cent of them are enrolled in recognized schools, while over 80 per cent of those enrolled drop out before reaching the Madhyamic level. The miserable condition of the community, which is among the oldest settlers in Calcutta and concentration of their vast bulk in marginal occupations including handicrafts, would indicate that they are a forsaken lot. Whatever is being done in the name of their development and welfare is extremely inadequate and leads then to no where. Endeavour for self-improvement, including in the field of education is covertly discouraged. There are examples of their being dislodged from several economic niches. Rules and regulations for establishing much needed educational institutions through self-endeaour are not easy to observe. Thus the yawning gap between the majority and the Muslim minority is ever widening. But what is a matter of greater concern is the basic factor of negative feelings that lie behind the attitudes and behaviours and has a disastrous effect on the minority, remains out of the focus of our attention. There is no positive programme to educate people to respect plurality and tolerance of diversity, no effort to sensitize and positivise the curriculum, and exclude the echo of divisive colonial history, replacing then with the scientific reality of racial and linguistic affinities and quite a large number of shared cultural values. This will perhaps be possible only when we recognize and acknowledge the presence and depth of negative feelings and realize the necessity of evolving our society into a cohesive nation, through diverse ways, including reforming education. (published in the Statesman) Festival issue 2008 The author is an ex-Research Professor, The Asiatic Society and ex-Superintending Anthropologist, Anthropological survey of India. From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Nov 1 16:14:55 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:14:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanguinetti on 'Terrorism and the State' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, I am writing in response to Jeebesh's suggestion that we all think of and forward, 'difficult and intriguing texts' and run commentaries on them. I think Jeebesh's suggestion is very welcome. In keeping with his request for a 'difficult but intriguing text' am forwarding a text that I find very interesting and relevant particularly in the light of the recent occurrences and ghastly terror attacks that have either left us speechless or made us garrulous. I am personally, left more or less speechless by the magnitude of horror in bombings like what happened two days ago in Assam, or have happened say, in Islamabad, (or Delhi, Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Jaipur, Malegaon, Modesa, Tripura, Imphal, or anywhere) that have jolted us in recent days, weeks, months. The text I am referring to is by the Italian Situationist writer, Gianfranco Sanguinetti, titled, 'On Terrorism and the State'. It is available from a web archive of Sanguinetti's writings at Although written to respond to the specifically Italian situation of the 70s and 80s of the last century (called the 'Years of Lead' in Italy). I think it reads almost like a parable for India today. It is a long text, and has several numbered notes, so please read with patience. The patience, let me assure you, is well rewarded. For best results, I recommend that you copy, paste and print out the text, or at least the numbered notes at the end (otherwise it might be difficult to follow the references that the notes elaborate on, and they are sort of crucial to fill in the wider context that this text is located in.) For more on Sanguinetti, see - For more on the Situationist International, see - For more on the 'Years of Lead' in Italy see - I hope that you will all find this text, and some of these references, enlightening to read. In darkening times, we need all the illumination that we can get. best Shuddha -------------------------------- http://www.notbored.org/on-terrorism.html On Terrorism and the State (Chapter X of Remedy to Everything) by Gianfranco Sanguinetti "The wily Shafts of state, those Juggler's Tricks Which we call deep Design and Politicks (As in a Theatre the Ignorant Fry, Because the Cords escape their Eye Wonder to see the Motions fly) . . . Methinks, when you expose the Scene, Down the ill-organ'd Engines fall; Off fly the Vizards and discover all, How plain I see thro' the Deceit! How shallow! and how gross the Cheat!. . . Look where the Pully's ty'd above! Oh what poor Engines move The Thoughts of Monarchs, and Design of States, What pretty Motives rule their Fates!. . . Away the frighted Peasants fly, Scar'd at th' unheard-of Prodigy. . . Lo, it appears! See, how they tremble! How they quake!" Swift, Ode to the Honourable Sir William Temple, 1689. All acts of terrorism, all the outrages which have struck and which strike the imagination of men, have been and are either offensive actions or defensive actions. If they form part of an offensive strategy, experience has shown for a long time that they are always doomed to fail. If, on the other hand, they form part of a defensive strategy, experience shows that these acts can expect some success, which, however, is only momentary and precarious. The attempts of the Palestinians and the Irish, for instance, are offensive acts of terrorism; on the other hand the Piazza Fontana bomb [1] and the kidnapping of Moro [2], for instance, are defensive acts. However, it is not only the strategy which changes, according to whether it is a matter of offensive or defensive terrorism, but also the strategists. The desperate and the deluded resort to offensive terrorism; on the other hand it is always and only States which resort to defensive terrorism, either because they are deep in some grave social crisis, like the Italian State, or else because they fear one, like the German State. The defensive terrorism of States is practised by them either directly or indirectly, either with their own arms or with others. If States resort to direct terrorism, this must be directed at the population -- as happened, for instance, with the massacre of the Piazza Fontana, that of the Italicus [3] and with that of Brescia. [4] If, however, States decide to resort to indirect terrorism, this must be apparently directed against themselves -- as happened, for instance, in the Moro affair. The outrages that are accomplished directly by the detached corps and parallel services of the State are not usually claimed by anybody, but are each time, imputed or attributed to some or other convenient "culprit" like Pineilli or Valpreda. [5] Experience has proved that this is the weakest point of such terrorism, and that which determines the extreme fragility of it in the political usage that one wants to make of it. It is starting from the results of the same experience that the strategists of the parallel services of the State seek, from now on, to lend a greater credibility, or at least, a lesser verisimilitude, to their own either by claiming them directly through such-and-such initials of a ghostly group, or even by making them claimed by an existing clandestine group, whose militants apparently are, and sometimes believe themselves to be, extraneous to the designs of the State apparatus. All secret terrorist groupuscules are organised and directed by a clandestine hierarchy of veritable militants of clandestinity, which reflects perfectly the division of labour and roles proper to this social organisation: above it is decided and below it is carried out. Ideology and military discipline shield the real summit from all risk, and the base from all suspicion. Any secret service can invent "revolutionary" initials for itself and undertake a certain number of outrages, which the press will give good publicity to, and after which, it will be easy to form a small group of naive militants, that it will direct with the utmost ease. But in the case of a small terrorist group spontaneously formed, there is nothing in the world easier for the detached corps of the State than to infiltrate it and, thanks to the means which they dispose of, and the extreme freedom of manoeuvre which they enjoy, to get near the original summit, and to substitute themselves there, either by specific arrests activated at the right moment, or through the assassination of the original leaders, which, as a rule, occurs after an armed conflict with the "forces of order," forewarned about such an operation by their infiltrated elements. From then on, the parallel services of the State find they have, at their disposal, a perfectly efficient organism to do as they please with, composed of naive or fanatical militants, which asks for nothing other than to be directed. The original little terrorist group, born of the mirages of its militants about the possibilities of realising an effective strategic offensive, changes strategists and becomes nothing other than a defensive appendage of the State, which manoeuvres it with the utmost agility and ease, according to its own necessities of the moment, or what it believes to be its own necessities. From the Piazza Fontana to the kidnapping of Moro, only the contingent objectives that defensive terrorism obtained have changed, but what can never change in the defensive is the goal. And the goal, from December 12th 1969 to March 16th 1978, and still today, has in fact always remained the same, which is to make the whole population, who, nowadays, can no longer suffer, or is struggling against, this State, believe that it has at least an enemy in common with this State, and from which this State defends it on the condition that it is no longer called into question by anyone. The population, which is generally hostile to terrorism, and not without reason, must then agree that, at least in this, it needs the State, to which it must thus delegate the widest powers so that it might confront with vigour the arduous task of the common defence against an obscure, mysterious, perfidious, merciless, and, in a word, chimeric, enemy. In view of a terrorism always presented as absolute evil, evil in- itself and for-itself, all the other evils fade into the background and are even forgotten; since the fight against terrorism coincides with the common interest, it already is the general good, and the State, which magnanimously conducts it, is good in-itself for-itself. Without the wickedness of the devil, God's infinite bounty could not appear and be appreciated as is fitting. The State, along with its economy, weakened to the extreme by all the attacks it has been undergoing daily for ten years, from the proletariat on the one hand, and from the incapacity of its managers on the other, can thus silence both in solemnly taking upon itself the staging of the spectacle of the common and sacrosanct defence against the terrorist monster, and in the name of this holy mission, can exact from all its subjects a further portion of their tiny freedom, which will reinforce police control over the entire population. "We are at war," and at war with an enemy so powerful that all other disagreement or conflict would be an act of sabotage or desertion: it is only in order to protest against terrorism that one has the right to resort to a general strike. Terrorism and "the emergency," a state of perpetual emergency and "vigilance," these are the only existing problems, or at the very least, the only ones with which it is permitted and necessary to be pre-occupied. All the rest does not exist, or is forgotten and in any case is silenced, distanced, repressed in the social unconscious, in the face of the gravity of the question of "public order." And faced with the universal duty of its defence, all are invited to partake of denunciation, baseness, and fear: cowardice becomes, for the first time in history, a sublime quality, fear is always justified, the only "courage" which may not be despicable is that of approving and supporting all the lies, all the abuses, and all the infamies of the State. Since the present crisis spares no country of the planet, no geographical frontier of peace, war, freedom or truth any longer exists: this frontier lies within every country, and every State is arming itself and declaring war on truth. So-and-so does not believe in the occult power of the terrorists? Well he will have to change his mind in view of the subtly-filmed images that show three German terrorists about to board a helicopter, and who are so powerful that they even succeed in then escaping from the German secret services, more skilful at filming their prey than in capturing it. So-and-so does not believe that a hundred or two hundred terrorists have the capacity to deal a mortal blow to our institutions? Well let him see what five or six of them are capable of doing in a few minutes to Moro and his escort, and he must then admit that the danger for the institutions (so much loved furthermore by more than 50 million Italians) is a real and terrible danger. Perhaps there is still somebody else who may wish to maintain the contrary? He's an accomplice of the terrorists! Everybody will agree then that the State cannot let itself be brought down without defending itself: and, whatever it may cost, this defence is a sacred and imperative duty for everybody. And this because the Republic is public, the State is for all, everyone is the State and the State is all, because all enjoy its advantages, so equally shared out: isn't that democracy? And this is why the people is sovereign, but beware if it does not defend it! Are you convinced? Or perhaps you still believe, after Moro, poor citizens in want of critique, that it is still and always the State, as from the time of the Piazza Fontana, which carries out these outrages? Vile suspicions! This impairs the dignity of the institutions: Zaccagnini weeps, here's his photograph, Cossiga as well, watch him on the news, and cease once and for all putting all the blame for everything on those who never hesitate to sacrifice someone else's life in the name of the defence of our very democratic institutions! Or perhaps you may still believe, poor citizens, that we ministers, we generals, we secret agents of Anti-terrorism -- by antiphrasis -- would be likely to sacrifice Aldo Moro, this remarkable statesman of the highest sentiments, this example of moral rectitude, our friend, patron, protector, and, when this was necessary, our defender? [6] This is precisely what every good citizen, who never doubts, always votes, who pays, if he is not rich, and who, in any event, remains silent, should think. Suspicions about the State are allowed in connection with the Piazza Fontana, because the victims were ordinary citizens: but surely one could not also suspect the State when the victim is its most prestigious representative! Kennedy? That's a thing of the past. It is uniquely for this reason that Moro's agony lasted such a long time, in order that everyone should have the possibility to follow at leisure the entire spectacle of the kidnapping, and the feigned discussion about the negotiation, in reading pathetic letters and merciless messages of the ghostly Red Brigades (RBs) which channelled the indignation of simple people and the poor in spirit, thereby giving the whole story some vague verisimilitude, and a reason for the collective psychodrama to manifest itself, contemplation and, most importantly, general passivity continuing to hold good. If Moro had been killed at the same time as his policemen, in the Via Fani, everybody would have thought of a settling of accounts, of which history is full, between capitalist gangs and rival centres of decision -- as actually took place. In this case, the death of Moro would have been judged like that of Enrico Mattei, [7] neither more nor less. No-one has yet noted however, that if today some power- group or other was to find itself, out of its own necessities or interests, in the position of having to eliminate an Enrico Mattei, or a Kennedy, it would certainly not do it as it did it then, but it would attribute it to, or make such an assassination claimed by, securely and with the greatest of ease, such-and-such secret little terrorist group. [8] That is why, then, this long kidnapping had to be staged, stressing sometimes the pitiless nature, sometimes the pathetic, sometimes the "firmness" of the government, and, when it was judged that people must be finally convinced of the "revolutionary" origin and the responsibility of the "extremists," only then did Moro's jailers get the "green light" to dispose of him. And you, Andreotti, [9] who are less naive than unembarrassed, don't come and tell me that all this seems new to you, and don't play at outraged virtue, if you please! The dust cloud stirred up in the country, which revolved around the question of knowing whether or not to negotiate -- a question that still delights cretins -- was the thing which should have succeeded the best, and was that which, on the contrary, failed the most: it is here that the artificial aspect of the entire machination, barely staged in the wings, appeared better than the production. The party which rejected negotiation, namely the leaders of the DC [10] and the PCI [11], rejected it because it knew very well that the staging of the drama foresaw the epilogue to it which we were effectively presented with, and because they also knew that, given the situation, it ought not to miss the opportunity of appearing, una tantum, inflexible at another's expense: and that is why we have been able to behold Zaccagnini and Cossiga, Berlinguer [12] and Pecchioli revelling unrestrainedly in the dignity of the Republican institutions -- already so well-represented moreover by the president of the time, Leone. [13] The leaders of the party which rejected negotiation knew, furthermore, that they ought not to miss the opportunity of having a dead Moro, so much less dangerous to them now than a live one, since a dead friend is worth more than a living enemy. If in fact, as a hypothesis, Moro had been set free, something quite impossible however, the Stalinists and the Christian Democrats were fully aware that they would have had to deal with a triply- dangerous man because of his popularity being reinforced by his very adventure, having been discredited in all manners by his friends whilst he was unable to defend himself, and therefore hereafter an open enemy of his friends and Stalinist ex-allies. Therefore, given the situation, no-one has the right to blame Andreotti and Berlinguer, as they were only acting in their own interest; what they can be reproached for, in any case, is for having done it so badly, in other words in such a manner as to have brought about more doubts and suspicions than applause in their sudden and unexpected conversion to an inflexibility which -- not possibly issuing either from their character or from their past, or from the pretended will to safeguard the institutions, which they flout in their deeds at every turn -- must forcibly issue from their unavoidable interests. As for Berlinguer in particular, he did not miss the opportunity of proving himself to be, once again, as if everybody was not already convinced of it, the most inept politician of the century: in fact it was as clear as daylight from the start that the kidnapping of Moro was, above all, a fine coup carried out against the "historic compromise," not of course by left-wing extremists -- who in any case would have kidnapped Berlinguer to punish him for his "betrayal" -- but by a power-group with interests which are irrationally hostile to the compromise with the so-called Communists. And I say irrationally, because such a policy could certainly not be a breach of the interests of capitalism: but obviously the diligent Berlinguer has not yet managed to convince all political sectors, military circles and power-groups of this, in spite of the fact that he has dedicated himself to this task, and to this task alone, for a lustra. Thus Aldo Moro, already designated for a long time as the maker of the government "of national unity," paid the price for it just when he was about to bring the enterprise safely into port: "whence one may derive a general rule, which never fails or at least rarely: that he who causes another to become powerful brings about his own ruin," as Machiavelli says, and it is not by chance, where he speaks De principatibus mixtis, in the same way as the present majority in the government is mixed. With Moro's disappearance, all the other political leaders partisan to the Christian Democrat or other "overtures," were at the same time warned: because those who decided upon and put into action the kidnapping of Moro have, by this same token, shown that they could, at any moment, do worse. Craxi [14] was the first to understand this, but all politicians understood it. And Berlinguer, instead of denouncing this straight away, instead of admitting that this was the fatal blow to his policy, preferred once again to remain silent, pretending to believe all the official versions, making a show of his zeal in the witch-hunt, inciting the population to informing, nobody knows about what or whom, continuing to spin out his own lies, supporting the intransigence of the Christian Democrats, and hurling invectives against the extremists, with the naive illusion of thereby reassuring these occult sectors which had kidnapped Moro. But the strategists of the Via Fani operation were jeering at Berlinguer's abstract goodwill against subversion, because they knew that he knew, and because they also knew that when it is a question of real subversion, of that which harms the economy, Berlinguer can no longer prevent anything at all that wild-cat workers do. It is not enough to want to defeat subversion, Berlinguer, you must show that you can defeat it: the laurels of abstract will are made out of dry leaves which were never green, you imbecile! In fact, as everyone has been able to verify, the PCI has not ceased, since then, to endure the bitter consequences of its own stupid dishonesty: during the kidnapping, it was wildly accused by the bourgeois press of being, in a word, the one responsible, for having nourished in its militants all manner of illusions about social revolution, obtaining these fine results; then it lost the elections; after that the abject Craxi (who already during the abduction, was ogling the side of the party of negotiation, which he knew to be impossible, but which permitted him to differentiate himself from the others) went over to the offensive in accusing the Stalinists of everything, but disguising everything in hazy ideological disputes serving as pretexts, which are even more laughable because they issue from a man of his intellectual and cultural standing. But, every time, the one who lost out in this was always Berlinguer; and the PCI, because it did not wish to be fought by its allies in the government, also unlearnt how to fight; and, at every defeat it endured, one witnessed the fairly comical scene where Piccoli and Andreotti would caress Berlinguer's neck, advising him not to despair, and above all, to continue in this way. And yet, in spite of all these set-backs, the Stalinists still continue today stubbornly pretending to believe that Moro was killed by left-wing extremists: so one could say that the never-ending series of failures that the PCI incurs is really merited, as it is a non-entity as a "party of struggle," and non-existent as a "party of government." [15] What to me seems less comprehensible and more unjustified than all the rest is the fact that the Stalinists bemoan this unashamedly, and always pose as victims, without ever saying of what they are the victims -- in other words of their own incapability on the one hand, and of the intrigues of their enemies on the other: enemies who are much less incapable and undecided than they, as the operation of the Via Fani, amongst others, attests and certifies. The party of negotiation, however, outlived its defeat, deriving some strength from the weakness of the opposite party, and is represented by Craxi, for reasons of mere convenience, and by Lotta Continua [16], by reason of its extremist stupidity that prevents even these militants from noticing that they are an integral part of the spectacle that they want to fight, and from which, however, they nourish themselves in large handfuls. Around this party of negotiation assembled, naturally, many intellectuals, whose perspicacity is known and whose depth of thought does not have to be shown: to which characteristics is added, in this case, the most crass ignorance of history, even less excusable furthermore on the part of those who have their word to say about everything and do business out of their own supposed knowledge. I shall explain: what unites, above all, bourgeois reactionaries, the good souls of the progressive bourgeoisie, fashionable intellectuals, contemplative supporters of armed struggle and the militants who complain about it, is precisely the fact of believing that, in connection with Moro, and for the first time on the matter of terrorism, the State did not lie; therefore, for all these fine people, the kidnapping was the work of revolutionaries, about whom the dismal Toni Negri [17] said that "we have underestimated their efficiency. . . . We are willing to do our own self-criticism," for having "underestimated" their "efficiency." So they are all, voluntarily or involuntarily, the victims of this nth lie of the State: the extra-parliamentarians and left-wing intellectuals certainly admit that the State always makes use of terrorism, post festum, but they cannot conceive that it resorts to terrorism by killing its "most prestigious" representative. And this is why I speak of historical ignorance: not one of them knows, or in any case, not one of them has remembered the infinite myriad of examples where States in crisis, and in social crisis, have eliminated precisely their most reputed representatives, with the intention and the hope of raising and channelling a general but generally ephemeral indignation against the "extremists" and malcontents. To only cite one of thousands of these historical examples, I shall recall here that the Czarist secret services, the redoubtable Okhrana, feeling (with terror and not without reason) the revolution of 1905 coming, had no less a person than the Minister of the Interior, Plehve, killed on 28 July 1904, and, as if that did not seem sufficient for them, shortly after, on the 17th February 1905, they had the Grand Duke Serge, the Czar's uncle, a very influential man and head of the Moscow military district, killed. These outrages, perfectly undertaken, were decided upon, carried out and claimed by the "Combat Organisation" of the Socialist-Revolutionaries, the leadership of which the well-known Azev had just acceded to, a truly ingenious engineer and Okhrana agent, in replacement of the revolutionary Guerchuni, conveniently arrested a short while beforehand. [18] I cite this unique but admirable example of provocation because, if one were to cite all the notorious examples of the last century, five hundred pages would not be enough; and I have also chosen it because the Italy of 1978 exhibits a vague but real resemblance to the Russia of 1904-5. And, in any case, it must again be noted that every power in difficulty always resembles any other power whatsoever in difficulty, in the same way as their behaviour and their manner of proceeding always resemble each other. The logic that the strategists of this spectacle follow nowadays is simple, plain and ancient: provided one does not recognise what precisely their real difficulties are, and what the irremediable contradictions are in which this old society flounders, the masters of the terrorist spectacle flatly offer us the most contradictory things: that the terrorism of 1978 was the inevitable consequence of the proletarian revolts of 1977, [19] and that the bombing of the Piazza Fontana was the logical result of the burning year 1969. Nothing could be more false! The revolts of 1977 are the consequence of the Hot Autumn, and the kidnapping of Moro is the follow-up of the provocation of the Piazza Fontana. History proceeds through dialectical contradictions, but the spectacle, like scholastic philosophers, flatly proclaims: post hoc, ergo propter hoc, after this fact therefore because of this fact; the fault is ascribed to the fact. In 1977, the young proletarian generation rose up in rebellion against its misery? Well then in 1978 these same enraged young people kidnapped Moro! And it is of little consequence that the Red Brigades had nothing to do with the revolts of 1977, which they accuse, on the contrary, of "spontaneism": the young proletarians of 1977 were subversive, the RBs are made up of young people, the RBs are the subversive elements of 1977. In no way, gentlemen of the government! And you, the general officers of the parallel services, since you always deceive yourselves, you would like the whole world to be like you! And whosoever denounces your provocations is straight away accused of being himself the provocateur, because reality is always upside down in the spectacle. The truth is that, as in 1977, your armchair began to shake under your ass, gentlemen of the government, and the earth under your feet, you, yes, you indeed: you passed onto the counter-offensive in killing one of yours this time -- and exactly that one of yours whom you (and your secret auxiliaries) considered the most likely to rouse popular indignation (no-one would have blinked an eyelid if Rumor [20] had been kidnapped or even Fanfani), and that the one who was the most responsible for the present "political framework" -- who, as you can see, does not please all the capitalist sectors which you and your military organisms are called to defend. So it could be said at this juncture that Moro was the Italian homologue of Allende: [21] and behind the accusation of serving the interests of the bourgeoisie and capital, instead of those of the proletariat, there was in fact, and badly camouflaged, the inverse accusation, namely that of not having served capitalist interests as well as some capitalists would have liked it. On the 16th March last year, the day of the Via Fani operation, I could not refrain from immediately thinking of two things: first of all of the fact that finally the secret services had been reorganised, and that they had recovered a little after the affair of the 12th December 1969, and from the humiliations which ensued (and, here too, and once again, reality is inverted by the spectacle: the success of the coup of the Via Fani is in fact attributed to the non- existence of the secret services). And secondly I thought of that passage in Candide where it is affirmed that "in this country it is good to kill an admiral from time to time to give courage to the others." Sciascia, [22] who is the most well-known Italian reader of Voltaire, is certainly not the most astute one since, having forgotten this passage and the whole reality, loses himself in such or such phrase from Moro's letters, without discovering further the entirety of the facts, which no detail observed under the microscope could show or give an inkling of. And, in fact, even today Sciascia believes that Craxi or others really had an interest in, or the intention of, having dealings with "the revolutionaries," and he gets indignant, with a verve worthy of a better pleading, about the little friendship displayed for Moro by his friends, which is an irrelevant detail, instead of reserving his indignation for the essential -- namely for the fact that with this provocation not only he, but the entire world have been deceived, police laws have been passed, as well as the hypocritical and infamous appeals of intellectuals and the Pope against "extremism," a hundred innocent people are in prison forever, and so forth. Tell me something, Sciascia: what importance can there be for history or even for truth in the fact that Aldo Moro had had also, amongst other misfortunes, that of being surrounded by unfaithful or dishonest "friends"? Is it perhaps something new that the Roman political world should be made up of scoundrels and assassins? Have you never read, Sciascia, what the Cardinal de Retz, who was a finer pamphleteer than you, had remarked three centuries ago, namely that "there are many people in Rome to whom it would be pleasing to assassinate those who are fallen"? New Emile Zola, you do not accuse the enemies of Dreyfus, but his calumnious friends, you do not accuse the criminal and responsible ones, but those who did the simple wrong of calumniating and dishonouring the victim, post festum, amongst which also abound the chroniclers of Corriere, a newspaper in which you nevertheless write, to say the least. And if you regret, Sciascia, the fact that Moro had the friends he had, why then don't you start to set a good example yourself, by ceasing, for instance, to fraternise with the indecent and unspeakable Bernard- Henri Levy? But I have already said the unsayable about intellectuals, and to add anything else is superfluous. As for little groups with extremist pretensions, who have all flung themselves with abandonment into theological dissertations on violence and the strategy of "revolutionary" terrorism, I shall merely recall that their comprehension of reality had already proved itself several years ago, beginning with the Piazza Fontana, then next at every subsequent occasion, like when they rejoiced at the assassination of Calabresi, [23] without pausing too much to think that the commissioner had been eliminated by his own bosses, for whom he had become cumbersome from then onwards (he had participated in the coup staged against Valpreda, the assassination of Pinelli, and something else: a few weeks before being killed in his turn, it was Calabresi himself who "recognised" Feltrinelli [24] in the unrecognisable corpse of Segrate, for which all the newspapers congratulated themselves for his "memory, his sagacity," etc., without one of them ever wondering whether it was a matter of memory, and sagacity, or on the contrary of quite another thing). These alienated extra-parliamentarians always lose themselves in all that the Stalinists say on the subject of terrorism, because they do not know that the PCI is capable only of lying, and the only thing they can never believe is the simple truth: for instance that the RBs are teleguided, that Moro was eliminated by the parallel services, and that they themselves are fatheads, good for being thrown into prison each time this is useful. [25] The Stalinists, after the "red trail" of the Piazza Fontana collapsed miserably, and although they did not protest against the fact that Valpreda was imprisoned for three years, brought out of their bag the "black trail," and then we had our extra-parliamentarians making exactly the "black trail" their own, and running behind the Stalinists to scream that "fascism shall not pass." Of course I do not exclude at all that some fascist or other may have participated in such or such terrorist act, "black" or "red": but this fact is of no importance, because we all know that in the same way that our State makes use of notorious fascists in the capacity of generals, prefects, [26] magistrates and police commissioners, it makes use of them as much in the capacity of secret agents, infiltrated elements and terrorist manpower -- and this without this State and this terrorism being defined as "fascist". [27] The Stalinists, starting from the time when they could not be accused of not knowing what is fascist, nor of being incapable of distinguishing what is merely relating to the police from that which is fascist, must therefore be accused of having lied in saying that the provocation of the Piazza Fontana was "fascist-style" -- and of having lied clumsily because they did not say "it is fascist," but "it is fascist-style." The fact that General Micelli, today openly fascist, was already so when he was head of the SID [28], is certainly not what determined his action when he was directing the secret services: since the secret services receive orders and carry out what politicians tell them to do. But the Stalinists' lie, on the subject of the Piazza Fontana, was certainly not without motive for being clumsy: because they wished to silence what they knew perfectly well, and because they also found themselves attacked -- and one knows with what violence -- by wild-cat workers, they had to sanction in 1969 the ghostly "fascist peril," in the face of which they could reconstitute "the unity of the working class" under their directives. A week after the 12th December, the metal-workers of the private sector, who were the avant-garde of the movement and its most resolute part, were compelled to renounce all strikes, starting with the one declared for the 19th December, and to accept the contract imposed by the trade-unions. Longo and Amendola were fully aware that if they had told the truth on the spot, on the 13th December 1969 the civil war would have begun, and they know very well even today that those who ask, like they, to be invited to eat at one end of the State's table surely cannot say in a loud voice that the plates are dirty: thus they can, on the other hand, say secretly in a hushed voice "the plates are dirty, we know: if you invite us we shan't say anything," as effectively happened. Since the Stalinists said nothing in 1969, the "party with clean hands" [29] had to then continue to say nothing and lie about all further provocations and assassinations perpetrated by the secret services of this very State whose recognition they are today demanding to obtain for their omerta, [30] and of which they want to share the crumbs with the Christian Democrats. For a long while, the Situationists were the only ones, in Europe, to denounce the Italian State as being the exclusive author and beneficiary of artificial modern terrorism and all its spectacle. And we had designated Italy to the revolutionaries of all countries as the European laboratory of counter-revolution, and as the privileged field of experimentation of modern police techniques -- and this starting exactly from the 19th December 1969, the date of the publication of our manifesto entitled Is the Reichstag Burning? The last sentence of this manifesto, "comrades, don't let yourselves stop here," is the only thing, without exception, which has been contradicted by history: this movement ceased exactly on that day, and it could not have been otherwise, starting from the moment when we were the only ones to have been fully aware of what the operation of the Piazza Fontana meant and to say it, without having any other means at our disposal than a "stolen roneo," as has been mentioned in the manifesto quoted. [31] As the people say, "those who have the bread do not have the teeth, and those who have the teeth do not have the bread": and all those courageous extra-parliamentarians of that time who had newspapers and rags did not have the teeth and did not publish anything pertinent about this massacre, preoccupied as they were, and as they are, with the search for the "correct strategy" to impose on the proletariat, which, for them is only good for being directed, and what's more by them! Because of their incurable inferiority complex vis-a-vis the PCI's capacity for lying, effectively superior to their own, the extra- parliamentarians thus accepted on the spot the version of the facts claimed by the PCI, according to which the bombs were "fascist- style," and therefore could not be the deeds of the secret services of this "democratic" State, so democratic even that it is never worried about what they recount, that they are the only ones to be considered "dangerous" for the spectacle, of which they are the ill- rewarded but indispensable confederates. Their false explanation of the facts was, however, in perfect agreement with the veritable ideology of these groupuscules, all infatuated with Mao, Stalin and Lenin then, as they are nowadays with Guattari, Negri and Scalzone, or with their miserable "private life" and their ridiculous "brothels." Since, therefore, these pretended "extremists" did not want to tell the truth, and did not know how to accuse this State openly of being the terrorist, they did not know how to combat it with any tangible result whatsoever: because to say that this bomb was "fascist" was as much of a falsehood as to say that it was "anarchist," and all lies, as opposite as they might appear, are always bound up in the sabotage of the truth. And only the truth is revolutionary, only the truth is capable of causing harm to power, only the truth has the capacity to stir the fury of the Stalinists and bourgeois. And the proletariat, forever deceived and betrayed by all, has learnt to seek the truth all alone, and it is impermeable to lies, however "extremist" they may claim to be. In the same way, and by the same guilty ineptitude, all the extra-parliamentarians of 1978 happily fell into the trap of the kidnapping of Moro, "work of comrades who make mistakes." Can't you perceive, you great ninnies, that you are the only "comrades who make mistakes," again this time? But your epitaph, brave extra-parliamentarians, has already been written by Dante: But you bite the bait, so well that the hook of the old adversary pulls you towards him; and thus to brake or to remember has little effect. Victims of their own false consciousness, which always expresses itself in ideology, the extra-parliamentarians could not however avoid for long the questions posed by spectacular terrorism, and so from 1970 onwards they began to consider the question of terrorism in- itself, in the empyrean of ideology, in a wholly metaphysical manner, completely abstracted from the reality of things. And when the truth about the massacre of the Piazza Fontana at last came to light, when all the lies adopted on this subject had fallen one after the other, neither the good souls of the intellectual-progressive bourgeoisie, nor the scarecrows of Lotta Continua and consorts were capable of posing the questions once and for all in its real, that is to say scandalous, terms: that the democratic Republic did not hesitate to enact a massacre when this seemed useful to it, because when all the laws of the State are in danger, "there only exists for the State one sole and inviolable law: the survival of the State" (Marx). And this is precisely what this famous "sense of the State" is that was saddled onto Moro and with which the philistines are now decorating his corpse. In ten years no one has wanted to unleash a "Dreyfus affair" concerning the behaviour of our secret services, whose chiefs were stealing in and out of prison with the general indifference of all the privileged owners of the "sense of the State," this sublime sixth sense with which our politicians are endowed, unlike common mortals, who are mutilated by it, like those who were mutilated, but by another thing, in the Agricultural Bank, and who did not die. Or perhaps there is somebody who is convinced that this mysterious "sense of the State" is something other than I have said it to be? "Moro had the sense of the State" and "Berlinguer has the sense of the State": if this does not mean what I have said, they are empty phrases, which is the same as saying that such girl has "the sense of the cunt" and myself that of my balls, and that Tina Anselmi [32] has no sense even if she creates a sensation. Since the extra-parliamentarians at first did not believe they knew, then knew without believing, and finally believed without concluding that the State itself inaugurated terrorism in Milan, the entire country entered this period of apparent madness and mad appearances: the entire question of terrorism became the object of academic diatribes and ardent invectives, which led some, the bourgeoisie and the Stalinists, to hypocritically condemn terrorism "whatever colour it may be" -- and if it was not precisely they who had encouraged and shielded it by giving it each time the colour which was the most convenient -- and others, those who believed themselves to be "extremists," to toy with the idea that "State terrorism is to be answered with proletarian terrorism." And this comes just at the right time for our secret services: the first small clandestine terrorist groups, the RBs and NAP [33] had scarcely been formed when the police, the carabinieri and the detached corps vied with each other to be the first to infiltrate these little paramilitary groups, either with the aim of forestalling their acts, or with that of teleguiding them, according to the necessities and desiderata of the moment and of the powerful. Thus everyone was able to see how the NAP were radically wiped out, either by arresting their members in order to exhibit them afterwards in ignoble fashion in such-and-such a trial, or else by directly doing some target practice on them, a much sought-after spectacle where the "forces of law and order" displayed themselves for the pleasure of the most lurid of bourgeoisies. [34] However this happened in a different manner with the Red Brigades: only two of the infiltrators of this group are known, that is to say, Posetta and the Christian Brother Girotto [35], who, although crass enough as agents provocateurs, were capable of making Curcio [36] and the other members, of what is fitting to be called the "historic group," fall into the trap -- all militants with no experience of clandestinity, and also barely "ferocious" as terrorists. Notwithstanding this the RBs were never dismantled after having been decapitated, and this certainly not because of the prudence of the other militants, who are not any less naive than their leaders who fell into the first trap set, but by the decision of their new leaders. So then why should the State, already in difficulty for other reasons, have lost this golden opportunity which presented itself to dispose thenceforward of a terrorist organism having an autonomous physiognomy and appearance, well-infiltrated and tranquilly directed from afar? I do not believe at all that General Dalla Chiesa [37] is the "warrior genius" of whom Karl von Clausewitz used to speak, but he had certainly read Clausewitz with more attention and profit than Curcio, and he has greater means to put at the disposal of his talents. General Dalla Chiesa, along with his colleagues in SISDE, SISME and CESIS [38], jeers at all the proclamations of ideologues of armed struggle about their affirmed intention of "carrying the attack to the heart of the State," above all because he knows that the State has no heart, not even in metaphor, and next because he knows full well, like Andreotti and Berlinguer, that the only attack capable of fatally wounding the State is today uniquely that which consists of denouncing its terrorist practices, and violently denouncing them -- as, for example, I am doing at this moment. General Dalla Chiesa, although he may be more well-up on tactics than on strategy, and though he confuses strategy with stratagem, substituting guile for the art of war, nevertheless knows perfectly well that terrorism is the substitute for war in a period where great world wars are impossible, or at any rate, no longer permit making one proletariat massacred by another in exhausting and bloodthirsty battles. Our general and the other strategists of the high political police also know that spectacular terrorism is always anti- proletarian, and that it is the pursuit of politics by other means: pursuit, however, of the anti-proletarian politics of all States. That this State has need of modern artificial terrorism is proved above all by the fact that it is precisely here, in Italy, that it was invented ten years ago -- and it is known that the Italian bourgeoisie replaces in invention what it lacks in capacity: it was again the Italian bourgeoisie which invented fascism, which then had so much success in Germany, Spain, Portugal etc., everywhere where it was necessary to crush a proletarian revolution. And the terrorist spectacle has already had an immediate success with the German government, which does not envy our situation, but envies our imagination (in other words, that of our secret services, as in the 1920s, when it envied us for Mussolini), which permits our government to sail in the shit without drowning in it. That this State has need of terrorism is on the other hand something which each of its representatives is quite convinced of from now on, by experience if not by reasoning, and this since the happy outcome, immediate and miraculous, of the operation of the Piazza Fontana. The proof of it is that if there has not been any "Dreyfus affair" concerning this, this certainly does not arise from the fact that the matter was less scandalous, but rather from the fact that all the parties, for different reasons, have understood that if this bomb had saved the State, which each of them defends in their own fashion, the truth about this bomb was itself alone capable of destroying it definitively. And if there has not been any "Dreyfus affair," this also arises from the fact that, in our enslaved intelligentsia, no Emile Zola "in attendance" ever requested or wanted to exact a truthful conclusion about the Piazza Fontana: Giorgio Bocca modestly made his book on terrorism start from 1970, and, as for the other mandarins of culture, they have always preferred, faced with the blinding light of the Reichstag burning, to look for glow-worms, like Pasolini and Scaiscia, without even finding any, obviously, but while always discoursing about the responsibilities of pollution in this disappearance, and advancing deep lamentations against it, "polemising" amenably, without ever denouncing the terrorist pollution, of which they are all thus accomplices and victims at the same time. I should like the parallel services and generals -- who will read Remedy to Everything [39] attentively, and at any rate the chapter which concerns them -- to lend their attention for a moment to two things I am going to tell them about the frailty of their strategy: first of all, Dalla Chiesa, take good note of what Clausewitz has taught you, in the chapter he dedicates to the ruse: In as much as one would like to imagine . . . that generals fight with dissimulation, ruse and perspicacity, one must still admit that these qualities are little evident in history. . . . The reason is not difficult to find . . . in reality it is dangerous to distract considerable forces for a long period, in the sole aim of deceiving the enemy: since there is always the danger of its being done in vain, these forces subsequently failing to be there at the crucial moment. This sober truth, which must always be present in the mind of the one who conducts war, robs perspicacious military leaders of all desire to engage in the double game of deceitful mobility. . . . In a word, the pieces on the strategic chess-board lack this mobility which would be the indispensable condition for the success of the ruse and the stratagem . . . [the ruse] does not harm, if it does not exist to the detriment of other qualities of the heart -- which is all too often the case. The second thing to consider, in connection with a strategy which is founded upon provocation, is as old as the world: Seneca already remarked -- and if I quote him, it is because, being Nero's counsellor, he was well-up on State terrorism and provocations -- that it is "easier not to embark upon this path than to stop, once embarked upon it." Like a drug, artificial terrorism needs and requires to be administered in always more massive and more frequent doses, because the future ill appears slighter than the one already done as Dante would say. So do your sums again, politicians and generals, and you will see that they are wrong. If then, as I have shown, the State needs terrorism, it also needs not to be caught red-handed every time, so as to then keep up a good front as its ministers, like Rumor and Tanassi, did at Catanzaro, equalled in this only by Generals Malizia, Maletti [40] and Micelli. And what better opportunity for the State, than that offered by a group like the RBs, decapitated and available, with its former leaders in prison and in ignorance about everything? I will still remark that, even if the former leaders were free, since two infiltrators sufficed to bring about their downfall, one alone, less vulgar than Brother Machinegun and Pisetta, would have sufficed to order them about wherever it was wanted for them to go, and without them ever suspecting anything. I know very well that the infiltrators known up to the present, as well as the major part of agents provocateurs in office, have never set the Thames on fire; but our clandestine militants, as one has seen, are not more astute than they. And even if they were all Lenins, as they imagine themselves to be, it should still be noted that the Bolsheviks were widely infiltrated and on several occasions: Roman Malinovski, worker and Okhrana agent, was part of the Bolshevik Central Committee, profiting from the most blind trust on Lenin's part, and despatching hundreds of militants and leaders to Siberia -- and, to a suspicion voiced by Bukharin, Lenin replied that that was "unworthy of a conscientious militant: if you persist it is you who will be denounced as a traitor," according to what Lenin's wife, Nadezhda Krupskaia, said. But Malinovski's case was not an isolated one: in 1917 opening the secret archives of the Okhrara, Lenin was dumbfounded, not without reason, at discovering that, of fifty-five professional provocateurs officially on duty, and regularly appointed, seventeen "were working" amongst the Social Revolutionaries, and a good score were sharing out amongst themselves the control of the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, and of course not amongst the rank-and-file militants! And Lenin had the bitter surprise of having to note that the provocateurs were always exactly these very "comrades" to whom he, who was so wise and so expert on the matter of clandestinity, used to accord the greatest esteem and the greatest confidence as a result of services rendered and the daring shown on several occasions. Nowadays, those practices that, in those times, passed for extremely refined sophistication's of the Okhrana, are no longer much more than primitivism's: the modern parallel services of the State, of every State, have a quantity of means, and personages from every class and of all social appearances at their disposal, well-equipped in the use of arms and ideas, often much more capable than the naive militants, who also bear the brunt of it. The organisational form of the party, always hierarchical, is in fact that which lends itself best to infiltration and manipulation -- exactly the opposite of what the bourgeois press says: all the cells at the base, formed of clandestine militants, are kept apart and in ignorance of everything, without any possibility of dialogue and debate, and everything functions perfectly thanks to the most blind discipline and to the most opportune orders given by an inaccessible summit, which is usually lodged in such-and-such ministry or power-group. And if ever some provocateur arouses suspicions, always some providential arrest occurs, placed well in the limelight by the press, which extricates him from danger and absolves him of all suspicion -- then he is even put into action again, thanks to an incredible and "heroic" escape. And often provocateurs, too, do not come out of it unscathed. Here is then one more reason why I would put any subversive of good faith on his guard against organising hierarchically and clandestinely in some sort of "party": clandestinity can be, under certain conditions, a necessity, whilst all hierarchy is always and only of benefit to this world is to be overthrown. Infiltration is practically impossible, or is discovered immediately, in revolutionary groups who do without militants and leaders, and which are founded on the qualitative: "the only limit to participation in the total democracy of revolutionary organisation is the effective recognition and self-appropriation, by all its members, of the coherence of its critique, a coherence which must prove itself in critical theory rightly so-called and in the relation between theory and practical activity" (Debord). In several of the RBs "caches" were recovered (and this is not new) an abundance of ultra-confidential material, issuing from police quarters, central police stations and even from ministries -- which, strangely, never were raided or ransacked by the RBs. In view of such eloquent facts, spectacular information always claimed to explain them by emphasising the ultra-efficient organisation of the terrible RBs, and by adding, in order to enhance this wonderful god-send for publicity, the fact that these clandestine militants, so hunted-down but so tentacular, have infiltrated everywhere, even ministries and central police stations. I have to laugh, in view of such an explanation of such a gloomy reality, and so clumsily camouflaged. Once more the intelligence of fifty million Italians is being abused, who are not Germans eager to saturate themselves with the poisoned feeding-bottle of the television, of Corriere and Unita, and those who ascribe such stupidity to ordinary people in fact reveal only their own -- which, for having gone so far, must certainly not be so ordinary. Once more power speaks by means of counter-truth: it is not the RBs who have infiltrated the central police stations and ministries, but agents of the State, issuing from central police stations and ministries, who have infiltrated by design the RBs, and not only into the summit for sure! And if for ten years the great merciless struggle against the terrorist monster, a struggle so much glorified in words, only resulted in hypertrophying this "monster," if the trial of the Piazza Fontana never even veritably began, this results again from the fact, which I do not know whether is more comical or repugnant, that those who have always been entrusted with this merciless fight, are those very secret services who always directed and actuated terrorism, and certainly not due to pretended "deviations" or "corruptions," but, truly militarily, by simply executing orders given. And all the militants who are exhibited to the public in the cages of the law- courts, as if they were fierce beasts, naive boys who were wished to be watched growing old in Italian prisons, are always and certainly the least implicated -- and this even if they are designated, in turn, as "the leaders" and "the strategists" (nothing is easier than to make a naive fanatic believe that he took part in such-and-such an operation, merely because he left the tract claiming it). And our general officers quite enjoy themselves counting up the medals and certificates of high merit that they collect, either by feeding terrorism, or "by discovering" at the opportune moment "the culprits." In this phenomenon, which can excite the virtuous indignation of hypocrites, there is in reality nothing new, and it has repeated itself for centuries in periods of corruption and decadence of all States. Sallust, for instance, who is the historian of the corruption and the crisis of the Republic of Rome, tells how the censor Lucius Marcius Filippus denounced Lepidus, a felon general, in these fine terms to the Senate: I should like above all, O senators . . . that criminal designs should be turned back against their authors. And yet the entire Republic is shaken and disconcerted by these seditious provocations, and precisely by the action of those who should have been the first to prevent them . . . and you, in giving doubtful and irresolute growls, in entrusting yourselves to the words and verses of auguries, you desire peace instead of defending it, and you do not understand that with your flabby proclamations you strip yourselves of all dignity, and him of all fear . . . for when scoundrels are rewarded it is not easy to remain upright without any returns . . . I do not know then if I must call your behaviour fearfulness, baseness or madness. . . . And you, Lepidus, traitor to all . . . you claim to re- establish by such a war this concord which is rendered null and void by the very means with which it was obtained. What impudence! That is it exactly: the social peace that terrorism can procure "is rendered null and void by the very means with which it was obtained," with this difference that today the impudent ones are all MPs of the republic and orators who inveigh against terrorism, extending it thus as well into their discourses, always affecting not to know what the entire country is saying since this famous year 1969. Listen a bit to what a modern Lepidus says, the honest Leo Valiani, who was not ashamed of regretting, in July 1978 in the Corriere, the "too lenient sentences" pronounced against some executants: [These sentences] encourage subversives to persevere, to always dare more. We are not asking the judges" -- Valiani valiantly continues -- "to convict someone without being convinced of his guiltiness. But when the Republic is, as it is at this moment, at grips with clandestine organisations such as these who have sown the seeds of death in the Piazza Fontana. . . any indulgence regarding those who have militated in such subversive organisations is suicidal. And what indulgence can surpass, Godammit, that of this Valiani, an expert in Stalinist and bourgeois terrorism, fellow-traveller of these two terrorisms and accomplice of all the lies on this matter, who still affects not to know, and he is the only one in Italy, that the "clandestine organisation which sowed the seeds of death in the Piazza Fontana" is none other than the organisation of Admiral Henke, who was then in command of the famous SID -- which, out of decency, that is to say out of indecency, has now had its name changed? And they still want to carry on, for the next ten years, with the same twaddle of Valiani's, this time about Moro's execution? What parliamentarian, what honourable scoundrel, amongst all those who reproach each other for their own "indulgence," speaking without rhyme nor reason about the "safeguarding of the Republic," has up till now dared expose himself, by accusing and naming the assassins of ten years ago? The fact is that, precisely, the safeguarding of this criminal Republic hereafter depends solely upon their capacity to still cover up these assassins and those of Moro -- along with those of Calabresi, Occorsio, Coco, Feltrinelli, Pinelli, etc., and this our ministers and honourable parliamentarians know quite well, they who continue to say nothing in order to collect new remuneration's which will go to complete their already substantial share. Our regime, since the great scare of 1969, has always bestowed immense confidence on its high political police, and in its capacity for always finding technical and spectacular solutions to all historical and social questions: our regime therefore is in the process of committing the same error as the Czarist regime, which consecrated all its attention and care into building the best and most powerful secret police in the world, as was the Okhrara in its time; this allowed the Czar to continue to survive on a daily basis and without anything changing for one decade more, but his fall was all the more violent and definitive. As a bourgeois thinker, Benjamin Constant, used to say, "only an excess of despotism can prolong a situation which is tending to break up, and maintain under the same domination, classes that everything is conspiring to separate. . . . This remedy, even more harmful than evil, no longer has any durable efficacity. The natural order of things avenges itself for outrages that it has been made to undergo, and the more violent the compression was, the more terrible the reaction proves itself to be." And in Italy, ten years of high police politics are beginning to make themselves felt, including their harmful and uncontrollable effects: the State is still there, with more authority and less reputation than ever, but its veritable adversaries have multiplied in number, their consciousness has increased, and, with it, the efficacity and violence of their attacks; and, in periods where it is the police who have conducted politics, it is always a total collapse which has followed. Today the sinister Craxi seeks easy applause in affecting to perceive that in Russia, a scandalous novelty, transgressions of opinion are considered State crimes. But don't you see, poor Craxi, that here in Italy it is State crimes that are considered transgressions of opinions. Is this not perhaps a fact less unworthy of your virtuous indignation? Ridiculous Craxi! Whom would you have believe that your soul is immaculate? You who strut about with your worthy crony Mitterand, do you think that it has been forgotten that Mitterand is a gangster, who, a few years ago, hired other, more obscure gangsters to simulate an attack against him? [41] No-one believes you, Craxi, when you declare that sine macula enim sum ante thronum! [42] And all of you party leaders, you are like Mitterand: when it is not you who instigate the attempts, but a rival, you always keep silent, and then you speak about firmness of the State in the face of your own provocations! That in Italy State crimes are considered mere transgressions of opinion, this is what is also proved, along with all the rest, by this simple precise fact: when, in 1975, under the pseudonym of Censor, [43] I published the historical, and not legal, proofs that it was the SID that committed the massacre of the Piazza Fontana, all the newspapers and journalists reported my conclusions widely but they were much more scandalised by the fact that an anonymous personage, apparently near to power, should dare to openly accuse the SID, than by the quite blatant tact that the State organised, and had carried out, a fine massacre so as to emerge unscathed from a very grave social crisis. And the journalist Massimo Riva has admirably expressed the thinking of all his colleagues, in wondering in connection with the Censor affair, in Corriere, what mysterious manoeuvre of power it heralded: "What is behind this? The fear of publicly speaking the truth? A warning between big pundits of the regime?" It was not my scandalous assertions and conclusions, but my anonymity, which provoked the scandal, or rather, the rumpus that was made around the identity of Censor only served to mask the scandal of what I was denouncing. All preferred to advance clumsy conjectures about my identity, if only to avoid speaking about what I had said: "A warning between big pundits of the regime?": this is the crux of the question, according to Riva and the others, and what creates a scandal is only the end of the omerta amongst the powerful, and not the crimes committed by them. But the best, as usual, is Alberto Ronchey, at whom we should be amazed if he did not manage to astound us: he said about my proofs that "whatever the responsibilities and intrigues of the SIFAR-SID or other detached corps may be," in spite of this, "as for bombs, kidnappings ... if one could really believe in a 'State terrorism' we would be in the presence of a criminal system of government, and no- one ought to have anything to do with such a power: neither the Communists, the Socialists or the others." [44] What is really incredible, is surely not the terrorism of the State, but Ronchey's way of reasoning: since he, the Communists and the Socialists have something to do with such a power, therefore, according to Ronchey, this is a sufficient guarantee that a State terrorism is not credible, therefore it does not exist, "whatever may be the responsibilities and intrigues of the SID" To reason like Ronchey: God is credible, therefore he exists. On the matter of terrorism and the State one really has the impression of having returned to the discussions about the existence of God and the Devil. Are they real? Do they exist? And if they exist, are they really credible? The poet says most wisely that Of course it was true, but believable it was not to those who were not masters of their reason. I cannot manage to understand where the Roncheys hope to arrive at with their theological logic: I never said that the secret services were behind each outrage, given that today even a Molotov cocktail or a sabotaging of production are considered as "outrages": but I said, and I have been saying it for more than ten years, that all the spectacular acts of terrorism are either teleguided or perpetrated directly by our secret services. And it should be well noted that I do not say "by secret services" which could belong to some far-off or exotic country, but by ours, yes, those of Italy, whose touch and stench, skill and clumsiness, tactical ingenuity and strategic stupidity I always recognise. Observe, for example, how the SID came to execute the operation of the Piazza Fontana: by successive trial-runs and approximations. They had decided to do a massacre amongst the population, and they prepared for it with two general rehearsals: the bombs of April 25th, 1969 at the [trade] Fair and at the bank at Milan station, and the bombs in the trains in August of the same year. The secret services thus prepared public opinion with these backgrounds, [45] and prepared themselves technically. And what general rehearsals then did the kidnapping of Moro have? It, too, had its general rehearsals, because our parallel services, which could not be more recognisable, even if they change objectives, always have the same manner of proceeding -- something for which Machiavelli would never forgive them. In April 1977 the kidnapping of De Martino without bloodshed was already a general rehearsal: in their rehearsals, the secret services never want to cause bloodshed, on April 25, 1969, no one died, nor did anyone in August. The rehearsal, however, always indicates the objective which will be struck: in 1969 the population, in 1977-78 a politician. The very day of the kidnapping of De Martino, claimed afterwards by about a hundred ghostly groups, I denounced it as a general rehearsal of the secret services in a poster printed and distributed in Rome. [46] The second rehearsal which indicated the chosen objective very well -- namely a politician -- was the bomb, whose publicity was so well assured, in the office of the Minister of the Interior of the time, Cossiga. Then came the coup against Moro, and there was bloodshed, because it was no longer a general rehearsal. With the thrust of the menacing revolts of the beginning of 1977, the secret services, who for ten years have always been on their guard and never inactive, began to stir themselves with decision in a more precise direction: and the two provocations cited, which are not the only ones in which they took part, are however those which best denote the chosen objective and the outcome of events. It can be said therefore wittingly that the kidnapping of Moro was the least unforeseeable thing in the world, since it was the least unforeseen where one can do what one wants, that is to say in the realm of power. At first it was feared that De Martino, a friend of the Stalinists, might obtain the presidency of the Republic, and by making him part with several hundreds of millions of Lira in order to recover his son, the reputation of this "socialist" was destroyed; after this Moro was publicly designated as the successor to Leone, less ransomable however than De Martino or Leone, which-is-to-say more dangerous for being stronger; moreover Moro had the responsibility for the agreement with the Stalinists, and, as president of the Republic, he would have had still more. Two and two make four, even in politics; March 16 1978: the President must die, to parody the title of a book of Andreotti's. Six months after the operation of the Via Fani, at a time when the anti-Stalinist politics of Craxi were undergoing their first tests, Amintore Fanfani, who in Tuscany is nicknamed the Ghost, was hurling his first and vigorous attacks against the government, against the secretariat of the DC, against the "emergency cabinet," against the "rapprochement" effected by Moro, denouncing "the abuses of unanimism," the inefficiency of the "equivocal" government of "national unity," and announcing the supersession "of a political season" -- winning the applause of the Craxists and arousing the "fears" of the Stalinists. Although Fanfani may be the Italian politician who, after Berlinguer, has amassed the greatest number of failures, he is not a cretin: much more intelligent than able, and less far-seeing than ingenious, the Ghost has only drawn the political conclusions of the Moro affair, so true it is that terrorism is the pursuit of politics by other means. As long as there shall exist a power separated from individuals, it will surely not be individuals who will fail it: no functionary of power or of capital is irreplaceable or indispensable in the maintenance of its domination, neither Kennedy, nor Mattei, nor Moro, nor any of those who are still alive and active. What, in a period of troubles, becomes indispensable to a power that does not want to renew itself, is precisely the elimination of certain men, either because they are too implicated and too shown-up, like Rumor, or because by wanting a "renewal," however minimal it might be, they arouse some fear or a certain mistrust in certain sectors of power: and it is known that the most reactionary sectors are always also the best armed. Moro's "overtures" were thus perceived as being opposed to certain interests and a concession to a "change" -- and this in spite of the fact that historically it was precisely any change that such overtures were trying to prevent, but without too much conviction and without sufficient guarantees -- that is to say, in a different manner to that desired by one fraction of power and by certain of the military. In history, every power always behaves like all the other powers have behaved, and as the present police politics of provocation follows its course, which I have already shown to be unstoppable, similarly for its powerful strategists, semi-lucid and semi-unaware, but completely dominated by fear, the necessity ripens of having to dispose of, in Mafia manner, some of those very men they had still been making use of the day before. In all this there is nothing new, and it is a further confirmation of the old precept according to which "he who is the cause of another's becoming powerful brings about his own ruin"; neither Moro, nor any of his colleagues, ever prevented the political police from becoming so powerful in the space of ten years; not one of them ever protested against nor fought a phenomenon that all, on the contrary, nourished: Moro was the first victim of some importance that such a politics struck down, but he was not the only victim. The strategists of terror had already got rid of other personages, less important but none the less utilised previously; we have before our very eyes several examples of this still fresh: the liquidation of Calabresi, the distant and mysterious death of the fascist Nardi, accused of Calabresi's assassination, the "suicide" of a good number of SID officers, the fatal "accidents" which happened to several witnesses at the Piazza Fontana trial, the spectacular and simultaneous attempts against the magistrates Coco and Occorsio, [47] which, out of a desire for symmetry ever-present in the spectacle of "opposite extremism's," were claimed by the RBs and the fascists. It is worth remarking that these two magistrates were involved with terrorism and not in a small way: Coco with the shady and incongruous affair of the kidnapping of Sossi, [48] and Occorsio with the dirty trick staged with great showmanship against "the human beast" Pietro Valpreda. Naturally, the entire lying media always presents as the confirmation of the official version of the facts precisely that which denies it: Coco "would not yield" to the RBs, so they took their revenge -- and one does not understand why, to avenge themselves, they did not kill the judge Sossi: I take a hostage and I blackmail you: if you do not accept the blackmail, it is you that I kill, and not the hostage: illogical but spectacular logic. As for Occorsio, he was, these last days, conducting an enquiry into the fascists, so these latter had an interest in killing him -- but, for mercy's sake, let nobody put forward the slightest suspicion. To wit, that if Occorsio was taking care, last of all, of the fascists after having taken so much care of the anarchists, but with just as bad results, it is because somebody therefore had suggested to him to take care of the fascists, in order next to be able to make them claim his death, thereby giving it an explanation (one could not quite however accuse Valpreda of having also killed Occorsio; Valpreda is from now on a "culprit," worn-out, unusable; if tomorrow one were to read that he killed his mother-in-law, there would be no one in Italy who would believe it). The judges who are busying themselves today with the Moro affair are the least enviable people in Italy, and they should be very careful: from now on they must take care not to get lost in their inquiries and not to displease certain sectors of power; next they should pay attention to all and everything, because for the State the first opportunity to get rid of them will be the right one: and the RBs "will claim" their death immediately, which will be explained in this matter to public opinion. And from now on in Italy all which can be explained is also justified -- and if the explanation is abusive, since no one answers it back, it is an explanation without right of appeal, a lie which is no longer contradicted and cannot be any more. If one can contradict it, it is not contradicted, if it is contradicted, it is not "credible," if it is not "credible" it does not exist -- to speak like Ronchey. Few things amongst those foreseen by Orwell in 1984 have not yet been verified; take for instance the following passage: In some ways she was far more acute than Winston, and far less susceptible to Party propaganda. Once when he happened in some connection to mention the war . . . she startled him by saying casually that in her opinion the war was not happening. The rocket bombs which fell daily on London were probably fired by the Government itself, 'just to keep people frightened'. This was an idea that had literally never occurred to him. A few extra-parliamentarians, lost behind their puerile illusions and the fetishist theology of armed struggle, would perhaps like to object that, since they believe in armed struggle, others more "extreme" than they can effectively practise it and be responsible for everything, including the kidnapping of Moro. I wish to point out here that I have never doubted, neither in public nor in private, the imbecility of our extra-parliamentarians taken as a whole; but it is worthwhile observing that they never doubt what the spectacle recounts about itself and about them. Only take heed of this, brave alienated militants: if Moro had actually been kidnapped and killed, as you believe, by free and autonomous revolutionaries, like the State has told you, then it would also ensue that, for the first time in ten years, the State did not lie on the question of terrorism. But this, being unheard of and absurd, is to be excluded. The sad truth is that, on the contrary, you have always believed the lies, about Valpreda, about Feltrinelli, about the RBs and so on: and even the official newspaper of the anarchists, Umanita Nova, hastened to take precautions, after the Piazza Fontana, in dissociating its "responsibilities" from those of Valpreda -- thus furnishing proof of a courage proportional to its intelligence. Many militants of the extreme left think they are very smart for having understood that Pinelli did not throw himself from the fourth floor of the Central Police Headquarters on his own; but they will never manage to beat this record for smartness since, shortly after, they praised our secret services when they killed Commissioner Calabresi. Our bourgeoisie and the Stalinists, who have already given so many proofs of their incapability, therefore have many reasons for consoling themselves by considering the stupidity of their pretended "extremist" adversaries, which compensates, in some way, for their own -- even if it does not cancel it out. And in fact, in ten years no extra-parliamentarian groupuscule has ever managed to harm this State in the slightest, because not one was capable of encouraging in any manner whatsoever the practical struggles of wild-cat workers, and even less of contributing to the progress of theoretical consciousness. Impotent and clumsy, the militants today accuse the State of being morally "responsible" for Moro's death for not having saved him, and not for having killed him, in the same way as in 1970 they were accusing the State of "moral responsibility" in the Piazza Fontana massacre, certainly not for having ordered it, but for not having ordered the arrest of certain fascists implicated in this affair, at least on the judicial plane. These politicians who take pleasure in mimicking the gestures of politicians who have "made it" continue to ignore the fact that morality has nothing to do with politics, but rather with the justificatory ideology of a policy, that is to say, with all the lies which every politics normally has need of. That is why they speak always and only about the "moral responsibility" of the State, and thus become co-responsible for all its lies. But let us try for one moment to consider, by means of an unreal hypothesis, that the kidnapping of Moro was conceived and carried out by subversives. And in this case there would be several questions to be asked -- which are precisely the only ones the contemplative militants have never asked themselves, busy as they are admiring everything that they are not capable of, or else disagreeing with all that in which they do not take part: that is to say everything. First of all, one should ask oneself how it is possible that in two months subversives were not capable of accusing Moro of anything else than of serving the interests of the bourgeoisie instead of those of the proletariat - as if that was a particularity of Moro's, as if in Parliament there was no one else "guilty" of this "crime"! The absurdity of such an accusation renders it totally unbelievable: Aldo Moro never claimed nor made anyone believe that he was defending the interests of workers, unlike Stalinists and extra-parliamentarians. To accuse him of such a crime is the same as accusing the rich of not being poor, or an enemy of not being your ally. If it was in order to bring such an accusation against him that these hypothetical "subversives" staged Moro's "trial," they could have spared themselves the effort and killed him in the Via Fani along with his bodyguards. But, as I have already said, behind this accusation lurks the contrary accusation: Moro's kidnappers were in reality accusing him of not serving the interests of the bourgeoisie sufficiently, and certainly not for doing this too well. Furthermore, the clumsy parody of "proletarian justice," awkwardly staged by Moro's jailers, did not even attempt to make him spit out the truth about the massacre of the Piazza Fontana, nor about a hundred other facts just as scandalous, which any man of power normally has knowledge of, facts which would have been highly instructive for the proletariat. In connection with this, it must be remarked that if Moro in one of his earliest letters was scared about having to speak of "displeasing and dangerous" truths, this in no way was disquieting to anyone in the government, which shows that our ministers did not fear anything of all this, because they knew they had nothing to fear. In their proclamations, Moro's kidnappers never knew how to nor wished to address themselves to workers, to whom they have never said anything interesting; after having affirmed with assurance that "nothing will be hidden from the people," Moro's jailers straightaway began, through his intermediary, a long secret correspondence with all the men of power of the DC, for whom this deed was a warning, and the kidnapping was to last until all were convinced of this: the first proof they were to give of their conviction was precisely that of not "negotiating," and they all in fact hastened to give it. The conditions for the freeing of the hostage, which would have taken place, officially, if the State had agreed to free about fifteen imprisoned militants, only seemed to be laid down in order not to be accepted, not for sure because they were unacceptable, but rather because, not being of any interest whatsoever to any sector of the proletariat, they could not claim the support of any movement of spontaneous or only violent struggle in the country -- a movement which, moreover, Moro's jailers did not even purport to instigate. Where the kidnappers betrayed their identity as agents of power, and in the clumsiest manner, was in the acute desire they have shown for being officially recognised by all the constituted powers, from the PCI to the DC, from the Pope to Waldheim: this fact alone admirably proves that not only do they recognise the legitimacy of all powers, but that they are pre- occupied only in being recognised by them, and certainly not by the proletariat. For their part, the party bosses betrayed themselves when they admitted that this kidnapping had the goal of dividing the political forces of the government, then adding that in this it would have failed, whilst it is exactly in this that the kidnapping succeeded: the Christian Democrats and the Craxists quickly understood that they should part company, quietly but firmly, with the Stalinists; if Moro's jailers had been subversives, such a division could certainly not have interested them, because any subversive knows that the only division liable to create disorder is that which one should accomplish between exploited and exploiters -- and certainly not between the different parties which only represent, in the spectacle, the different forces which serve to maintain the same exploitation, by only changing the beneficiaries of it. Finally, if Moro's kidnappers had been subversives, they certainly would not have missed the opportunity to release him, since Moro, slandered by all his friends and betrayed by his allies of the day before, would have openly fought all those he had protected up until then. However, by killing him, the artisans of the coup of the Via Fani conveniently helped all the powers out of a difficulty, and particularly the DC, to whom Moro was useful dead, but very harmful alive. In any case, if Moro's kidnappers had been subversives they certainly would not have chosen the freedom of Curcio and others as the object of negotiation, giving power an excellent pretext for sending them packing and not "to lose their honour": if they had chosen to make unacceptable demands, they should have demanded something quite other than the freeing of these single fifteen prisoners -- and those who make unacceptable demands always take care that they should not be easily refusable either, as was that of the freeing of these few brigatisti. But Moro's kidnappers in reality did not want anything that they were officially demanding: what they did want, they knew quite well they could not openly demand, so as not to unmask themselves -- and what they wanted they have obtained, today. And shortly before Moro's jailers were to get rid of him, all the real terms of the blackmail had become inverted with relation to the spectacular and official terms of the blackmail towards DC; and the real terms had become these: either you change your policy, or we shall free Moro, and you will see that it will be he who shall change policy. And things being thus, the Christian Democrat and "socialist" leaders wisely preferred that it should be they who change policy at Moro's expense, in view of the risk that it might be Moro who changes it, but at their expense. This is the way the world goes, despite all the flapping of wings of the Capitoline geese who claim the contrary. All our incapable extra-parliamentarians, dazzled like primitives by the technical success of the operation of the Via Fani, have not been able to see beyond, in considering that those who have so many means and tactical capacities at their disposal would surely not place them in the service of such a poor and senseless strategy as that one intended to be attributed to the RBs, but rather would place all this at the service of a more wide-ranging political design. But the extra- parliamentarians, in view of the operational efficiency displayed in the Via Fani and by the sequel, naturally preferred to attribute this latter to "comrades who make mistakes" rather than to enemies who do not make mistakes, and who quietly screw them all. Here as well, our leftists have taken their poor desires for reality, without suspecting that reality always surpasses their desires, but not in the manner they desire. And if they were less ignorant, they would not overlook as much, and so wrongly, the capacities of the Italian parallel services: they would know, for instance, that the only really successful war operations accomplished by Italy during the last conflict were commando actions effected by the Navy. It seems to me to be scarcely necessary to recall how this brilliant tradition was admirably transmitted from the Navy to the secret services, headed at first by Admiral Henke, who was never an imbecile, then by Admiral Casardi, who is even more capable -- with the ignominious interregnum of a general as incapable as Vito Micelli, who in fact had to succumb to his own incapability, and to the prudence of Andreotti, who did not take long to perceive it. In fact Andreotti did not have General Micelli arrested for being responsible for "deviations" of the SID -- which had begun well before, as Andreotti is well aware -- but he had him arrested precisely because Micelli risked, through a blunder, blowing the lid off the great stewing-pot of the secret services. [49] And once again Andreotti has shown himself to be a sharper politician than he would wish to appear, in making his attack against Micelli pass for solicitude about constitutional allegiance, and thereby gaining expected sympathies from the left. Andreotti's sole error, as usual, was an error of false modesty and of vanity: he rejoiced too much after Micelli's arrest, overplaying the simpleton and repeatedly declaring that he, out of prudence, had never wanted to involve himself with the secret services: a scandalous declaration for a head of government, but necessary to someone who, being involved with them, saw "cose che'l tacere e bello," [50] but things so scandalous that they can only be silenced by pretending not to know of them. And Andreotti knows very well that the scandal of ignorance is the price he must pay in order to feign ignorance of certain scandals. He remains however like the comic in that fable where the fox disguises himself as a lamb in order to be better accepted amongst the wolves. Leaving aside the admirals, it must still be noted that in Italy there are also excellent superior officers of the Carabinieri, not all of whom are like Micelli or Labruna [51], and it is only the Micellis and the Labrunas who fall into the trap. Then again, there is a more profound and more dialectical argument in favour of the leadership of our secret services: if this period requires certain men to practice terrorism, it is also capable of creating the men terrorism has need of. And it should not be believed that the operation of the Via Fani was a superhuman masterpiece of operational capability: up until yesterday even Idi Amin Dada was able to allow himself certain technical successes, at which the poor militants of Lotta Continua will never cease to be amazed. Much less naive than extra-parliamentarians, a large number of workers whom I have met in the most varied situations, have straight- away come to the conclusion that "Aldo Moro, it is they who have kidnapped him," meaning by this of course those who have power. And to think that even yesterday such workers voted, and on the whole voted PCI! The rift, hereafter irreparable, which exists in the country between all those who have the right to speak (politicians, the powerful and all their lackeys, journalists or others), on the one hand, and all those who are denied the right to speak, on the other, expresses itself perfectly in the fact that the former, far-removed from ordinary people and protected by the barrier of their bodyguards, no longer know what the latter say and think, in the street, the restaurant or their workplace. And thus the lies of power have flown off at a tangent, entering some kind of autonomous orbit under the impact of centrifugal force, an orbit which no longer touches upon any pole of the "real country," where truth can thus make its way much more easily since no obstacle obstructs or intimidates it. However, the spectacle has become autistic, that is to say, it is afflicted by this syndrome of schizophrenic psychopathology according to which the ideas and actions of the patient can no longer be modified by reality, from which he is irremediably separated, compelled to live in his own world outside the world. The spectacle, like King Oedipus, has gouged its own eyes, and blindly continues in its own terrorist delirium: like King Oedipus, it no longer wishes to look at reality, and, like President Andreotti, it says it does not want to know anything about the secret services, even proclaiming that they have been dismantled and non-existent for several years. If, like King Oedipus, the spectacle no longer wishes to look at reality, it is that it only wants to be looked at, contemplated, admired and accepted for what it pretends to be. It wants thus to be listened to, without even listening however, and it is not too much perturbed even about no longer being listened to: what seems to matter most to the spectacle is to relentlessly pursue its paranoiac journey. At the very moment when it is the police who claim to make history, any historical fact is explained by power in a police manner. The Hungarian researcher into psychiatry, Joseph Gabel says that, according to what he defines as the "police conception of history," history is no longer constituted "by the ensemble of objective forces, but by good or bad individual action," where each event "is placed under the sign of miracle or of catastrophe": interpretation of the event then no longer consists of its historical explanation, but is ascribed to red or black magic. Thus, for power, the Piazza Fontana bomb was the miracle which allowed the trade- unions to renounce all strikes, and the State to avoid civil war; the death of Moro, on the other hand, heralded a mysterious catastrophe which, thanks to the skill and inflexibility of our politicians, was averted from us. And it is of no importance that a large number "of the plebs" -- to use here a fortunate expression of the Stalinist Amendola -- had said, as I have heard it said thousands of times, that "as for myself, if they kill Moro, it doesn't matter to me: that's their business." "The country resisted, it knew how to react": what a fine joke! The only reaction of this mythological "country" was, most wisely, never to believe anything more of all that it is told. In a parallel manner to the catastrophic or miraculous explanations of history, the spectacle reaches the point of no longer knowing whom it rules, no longer grasping reality and the thoughts it must master urgently; and, as Machiavelli says, "where one knows the least, one suspects the most": the entire population, and all young people in particular, become suspect in the eyes of power. At the same time, if artificial terrorism claims to be the only real phenomenon, all spontaneous revolts, like those of Rome and Bologna in 1977, become according to this "police conception of history" a plot, artificially hatched and led by "occult forces" yet "quite identifiable" -- as Stalinists today still maintain. Everything that power does not forecast, because it has not organised it, therefore becomes a "plot" against it; on the other hand, artificial terrorism, being organised and directed by the masters of the spectacle, is a real and spontaneous phenomenon that these latter continually feign to fight, for the simple reason that it is easier to defend oneself from a simulated enemy than from a real one. And for the real enemy, the proletariat, power would like to refuse it even the status of enemy: if workers declare themselves to be against this demented terrorism, then "they are with the State," if they are against the State, then "they are terrorists," that is to say enemies of the common good, public enemies. And against a public enemy, everything is permitted, everything is authorised. Gabel says further that "the police conception of history represents the most complete form of political alienation . . .:the unfavourable event can only be explained by exterior action (the plot); it is experienced (by the patient) as an unexpected catastrophe, "unmerited". And so it is that any spontaneous strike becomes an insult to the "working class," so well represented by the trade unions, and any wildcat struggle is "provocative," "corporative," "unjust" and "unmerited." All this fits exactly into the clinical framework of autistic schizophrenia: "the syndrome of external action . . . is the clinical expression of the irruption of the dialectic in a reified world which cannot admit of the event unless as a catastrophe" (J. Gabel, False Consciousness). The irruption of the dialectic corresponds however to nothing other than the irruption of struggle in a reified world, which it is more exact to call a spectacular-commodity world, which cannot admit of struggle, not even in the realm of thought. So this spectacular society is not even capable of thinking any more: someone who reasons logically, for example, only accepts the identity between two things when it is based on the identity of the subjects; however the spectacle, which is para-logical, establishes the identity in basing it on the identity of the predicates, and thus says: "the devil is black, black is the devil" or "the Jew is bad, the bad is the Jew" or even "terrorism is catastrophic, the catastrophe is terrorism." Leaving aside terrorism, all the rest would be fine: unfortunately, there is this terrorism: so what can be done about it? If I say: "a policeman must have a clear criminal record, Mario Bianchi is a policeman, therefore he has a clean criminal record"; the schizophrenic, on the other hand, will say: "Mario Bianchi has a clean criminal record, therefore he is a policeman." It is thus that the spectacle, stricken with autism, says: "Those who kidnapped Moro are terrorists, the RBs are terrorists, Moro was kidnapped by the RBs." No identification is a misuse, for the spectacle, except one, which is the only one not to be, and here it is: the State has been declaring for years that it is fighting the RBs, it infiltrated them several times without ever attempting to dismantle them, therefore the State makes use of the RBs, as a cover, because the RBs are useful to this State, therefore RBs = the State. That power fears, above all, this identification, it has confessed in a thousand ways, for instance when it invented this neurotic and clumsy slogan: "either with the State, or with the RBs," which is tantamount to saying "either with me, or else with me." Long before the advent of the spectacle, religion, which has always been a prototype of functional ideology for all the old powers, had invented the devil, the foremost and supreme agent provocateur, who was to assure the most complete triumph of the kingdom of God; religion did nothing other than project into the metaphysical world the simple necessity of any concrete and real power. Thus, Cicero needed to amplify the risk constituted by Cataline, in order to magnify his own glory as saviour of the fatherland, and multiply in that way his own abuses. For any power, the only real catastrophe is to be swept out of history; and each power, once weakened and feeling the imminence of this real catastrophe, has always tried to consolidate itself in pretending to wage an unequal struggle against a very convenient adversary: but such a struggle always was also the last oration pro domo sua [52] that this power would declare. History is full of similar examples. Just as scandal is necessary for the greater glory of God -- says Paul-Louis Courier --, so are conspiracies for the maintenance of the political police. Hatching them, stifling them, setting up the plot and discovering it, this is the high art of office; these are the ins and outs of the science of statesmen; it is transcendent politics perfected only a short while ago at home, that the jealous Englishman seeks to imitate and counterfeit, only vulgarly. . . . Ministers, as soon as it is known what they want to do, suddenly cannot or nor longer wish to do it. Politics known is politics lost; State affairs, State secrets. . . . Decency is obligatory in a constitutional government. [53] Courier was speaking thus in 1820, in the height of the Restoration; today, out of fear of a new and more formidable revolution, the same practices as then are used, on a much larger scale, in order to obtain a preventative restoration. The "transcendent politics" of those days is the immanent politics of the spectacle, which always presents itself, like Dante used to say about God, as "the adversary of all evils" -- and therefore all that opposes the spectacle is evil, according to its autistic logic. And in view of this unpitying preventative restoration, in view of this infamous series of provocations, massacres, assassinations and lies that seek to camouflage a reality which is as clear as daylight, in view of all this here we have sociological "studies" on terrorism multiplying, and all the servile and progressive journalists, who care more for their security than for plain reality of the facts, rivalling each other in the expression of a "certain sympathy" for "armed struggle" and clandestinity, as the unspeakable Georgio Bocca said, under the pretext that it reminds him of his epic struggle in the Resistance. Men like Bocca are, so to speak, "legitimised" when, under the reign of fear, they declare they have some sympathy for this terrorism, because they earn 4 or 5 million Lira a month and because they feel that this terrorism will ensure for them that this will continue. But the one who has nothing is deceived by these men, who always lie, for the sake of peddling their filth unbothered, at other people's expense: people like you, Bocca, don't get killed, that would be doing them too much honour! Nobody wants to see you die, but, for my part if I ever meet you on the street, you may be sure that I shall teach you how to live, you fathead. And here we have, on the other hand, the lawyer Giannino Guiso telling us about the ideological sublimities of Curcio, and the sociologist Sabino Acquaviva launching into grandiloquent "explanations" about terrorism, whilst this pedant Scialoja, a journalist with the Expresso, holds forth on the "strategies" of armed struggle, and they all pretend to be in the know about the secret matters of the social revolution, all seeking to lend credibility to artificial terrorism as a prelude to the revolution: Vous serez etonnes, quand vous serez au bout, de ne nous avoir rien persuade du tout. [54] I only have this to say to you, respected mystifiers: unlike you, I have known in the last thirteen years a large part of the revolutionaries of Europe very well -- known equally well to all the police forces -- who have contributed the most, by theory and by practice, in reducing capitalism to its present conditions: not one of them, without any exception, have ever practised or even less hailed spectacular modern terrorism -- which seems evident to me. There are no secret matters of revolution: all that which today is secret belongs to power, that-is-to-say to counter-revolution. And all the police forces know this perfectly well. From now on you may rest assured about one thing, gentlemen of the government: as long as your State shall exist, and I am alive, I shall never tire of denouncing the terrorism of your parallel services, whatever the cost: for this is precisely the foremost interest of the proletariat and of social revolution, at this time and in this country. And this exactly because, as Courier used to say, "politics known is politics lost." And if this criminal State wants to go on lying, killing and provoking the entire population, it shall be compelled from now on to cast off its "democratic" mask and act in its own name against workers and abandon the present spectacle of the party game in which the secret services harbour their illusions of the existence of a few naive militants of "armed struggle" in order to give verisimilitude to their provocations, and then throw hundreds of people into prison, whilst our policemen do target practice whilst awaiting the civil war. From 1969 on, the spectacle, in order to still be believed, had to attribute to its enemies incredible actions, and in order to still be accepted, it had to credit proletarians with unacceptable actions, and thereby ensure sufficient publicity so that people who allow themselves to become frightened always choose "the lesser evil," namely the present state of affairs. When the real heads of the RBs ordered that unarmed people should be shot in the legs, something which is only befitting of police cowardice, and certainly not of revolutionary courage, when the real heads of the RBs ordered such attacks, which hit minor industrial leaders, they knew very well what they wanted: to scare this part of the middle class who, not enjoying the advantages of the upper class, do not have sufficient class consciousness, and thus win it over in view of the civil war. The fragility of such artificial terrorism resides however in this: once you proceed with such politics, it becomes even more well-known, and therefore judged, and all that had constituted the strength of this politics now constitutes its weakness, whilst the great advantages it assured its strategists turn into a major inconvenience. The present President of the Republic, Pertini, a naive man, is always and only afraid of fascism, as he only fears what he knows: however from now on he should fear what he does not know and get to know as quickly as possible what he must fear today: not any more an open dictatorship but a formidable masked despotism of the secret services, a despotism all the stronger for using its power to affirm vigorously that it does not exist. [55] It was not at all by chance that Fanfani, almost imperceptibly, invented in September 1978 a new important post which had no precedent in our institutional history: that of "advisor to the president of the Republic for problems of democratic order and security." And neither was it by chance that, to fill this position, Fanfani called upon Lieutenant-General Arnaldo Ferrara, who is considered, militarily, the best officer of the Carabinieri and one of the best in Europe. In flanking the old Pertini with the young General Ferrara, "a man with ice-cold eyes and refined tastes," as he has been described, Fanfani not only institutionalised a situation of fact, in sanctioning the power attained by the parallel services, but also made the first step to consummate his old dream of a presidential Republic: Arnaldo Ferrara, this intelligent and refined officer, who even recently had refused to head the SISDE and had not yielded to Andreotti's insistence in order not to renounce his own ambitions, this field-officer who "has penetrated into the most secret secrets of the State and the men who represent it" -- as Roberto Fabiani assures us -- is in fact the new president of the Republic. Furthermore, Ferrara today holds powers that no president of the Republic ever had in the past -- powers that his function of "adviser," which is honorary only in appearance, guarantees him in reality much more and better than any other office, assuring him at the same time a freedom of action whose limits are difficult to determine, but easy to exceed. Faced with such a state of affairs, the proletariat can only fight it on open ground or get used to it, bearing all the heavy consequences. And here is then, if one really wants to know it, the precise end being served in bedecking the presidency of this Republic with a man "above all suspicion": it has served to hide its goal, and its painless transformation into a police State, whilst maintaining the spectacle of "democratic" appearances. The honourable Pertini, since he has always remained on the fringe of his own party, and since he is perhaps the only politician who, never having had real power, has always been a stranger to the practices of the parallel services, is also therefore the man who least knows these practices, and the one who therefore offers the best qualifications required in order to be manipulated, without noticing it, by this occult power. The detached corps of the State, having attained their present power, can only continue to make use of the same tactic of infiltration used successfully in relation to the RBs, by extending them today to all the institutions of the State. In these conditions, not only will terrorism not cease, but it will increase quantitatively and qualitatively: [56] and one can already foresee that if a social revolution does not arrive to put an end to this tragic farce, the presidency of Pertini will mark the most deadly period of the Republic. And don't come and tell me that what I say "is most serious": I know that perfectly well, but I also know that to remain silent, like all the others do, is even more serious, and that the most serious phenomenon is that which all take part in without ever denouncing it. There is no longer anything secret in this phenomenon, which however still remains unadmitted in the general consciousness: and as Bernard Shaw said, "there are no better kept secrets than the ones everybody knows." And consciousness always comes too late. In such conditions, the foremost duty of any conscious subversive is to unpityingly cast out of the minds of people called to action any illusion about terrorism. As I have already said elsewhere, historically, terrorism has never had any revolutionary efficacity, except where every other form of manifestation of subversive activity had been rendered impossible by a complete repression; and therefore where a notable part of the proletarian population had been brought to be silently on the side of the terrorists. [57] But this is no longer, or is not yet, the case of present-day Italy. Furthermore it is fitting to note that the revolutionary efficacity of terrorism has always been very limited, as the entire history of the end of the nineteenth century shows. The bourgeoisie, which established its domination in France in 1793 by means of terrorism, must however again resort to this weapon, in a defensive strategic context, in the historical period where its power is universally called into question by these same proletarian forces its own development has created. In a parallel manner the secret services of the bourgeois State cover their terrorism by opportunely using the most naive militants of a Leninism completely discomfited by history -- a Leninism that also used, between 1918 and 1921, the same terrorist anti-working class method to destroy the Soviets and seize hold of the State and the capitalist economy in Russia. All States have always been terrorist but they have been so most violently at their birth and at the imminence of their death. And those who today, either out of despair or because they are victims of the propaganda the regime propagates in favour of terrorism as the nec plus ultra of subversion, contemplate artificial terrorism with uncritical admiration, even attempting sometimes to practise it, do not know that they are only competing with the State on its own terrain, and do not know that, on its own terrain, not only is the State the strongest but that it will always have the last word. And all that which does not destroy the spectacle reinforces it: and the unparalleled reinforcement of all the State's powers of control, which has occurred these last few years under the pretext of spectacular terrorism, is already used against the entire proletarian movement, which is today the most advanced and the most radical in Europe. It is certainly not a question of "disagreeing" with terrorism in a stupid and abstract manner, like the militants of Lotta Continua do, and still less of admiring the "comrades who make mistakes," as do the so-called Autonomes -- who thus give the infamous Stalinists a pretext for preaching systematic denunciation -- but it is a matter of judging it purely on its results, of seeing who benefits from it, of clearly saying who practises terrorism, and what use the spectacle makes of it; and then it is a matter of drawing conclusions once and for all. Obliging everyone to continually take a position for or against mysterious and obscure incidents, prefabricated in reality for this precise end, this is the real terrorism, to continually compel the entire working class to declare itself against such and such attack, which everyone, except the parallel services, has no part in, this is what allows power to maintain generalised passivity and the contemplation of this indecent spectacle, this is what permits trade- union bureaucrats to reunite, under their anti-working class directives, the workers of each factory in struggle where a boss regularly gets shot in the legs. When Lenin, in 1921, at the time of the repression of the Kronstadt soviet, pronounced the famous "here or there with a rifle, but not with the workers' opposition, we have had enough of the workers' opposition," he showed himself to be less dishonest than Berlinguer, who says "either with the State or with the RBs," because Lenin was not afraid to declare that his sole aim was the liquidation of the workers' opposition. Very well then, starting from this exact moment, he who affirms he is "with the State" knows that he is also with terrorism, and with the most putrid State terrorism ever set up against the proletariat; he knows that he is with those responsible for the deaths at the Piazza Fontana, on the Italicus and at Brescia, and for the assassinations of Pinelli and a hundred others, and let him not come and plague us any more because we have had enough of crocodile tears about the "martyrs of the Via Fani," of provocations, vile intimidations, assassinations, prison, the shameless hypocrisy about the defence of "democratic institutions," and all the rest. And as for us subversives, who are exactly with the workers' opposition, and not with the State, let us demonstrate this above all and on every occasion, by always unmasking all acts of terrorism by the services of the State, to whom we will gladly leave the monopoly of terror, thereby making shame even more shameful by consigning it to publicity: the publicity it deserves. When our turn comes, we shall not lack arms, nor valiant fighters: we are not the slaves of the commodity-fetishism of arms, but we shall procure them as soon as it will be necessary, and in the most simple manner of all: by taking them from you, generals, policemen, and bourgeois, because you already have enough of them to suffice all the workers of Italy. "We have no respect; we do not expect any from you. When our turn comes, we will not embellish violence" (Marx). A thousand Via Fanis and a thousand Piazza Fontanas cannot profit capitalism as much as one sole anti-bourgeois and anti-Stalinist wildcat strike can harm it, or a simple violent and successful sabotage of production. The oppressed consciousness of thousands are awakening and revolting every day against exploitation: and wild-cat workers know perfectly well that social revolution does not make its way by accumulating corpses along its path, which is a prerogative of Stalino-bourgeois counter-revolution, a prerogative that no revolutionary has ever disputed. And as for those who have joined up with alienated and hierarchical militantism in the period of its bankruptcy, they could only become subversives on the condition that they get out of it, and only if they succeed in negating practically the conditions the spectacle itself has laid down on what is today designated by the vague but precise term "dissidence," which is by its nature always impotent. From now on, whosoever in Italy does not use all the intelligence they have at their disposal to rapidly understand the truth which lurks behind each State lie, whosoever does not do this is an ally of the enemies of the proletariat. And whosoever still claims to want to fight alienation in an alienated manner, through militantism and ideology, will quickly perceive that they have renounced all real combat. It will certainly not be militants who will make the social revolution, nor the secret services and Stalinist police who will prevent it! Translated from Italian into French by Jean-Francois Martos, and published by Le fin mot de l'Histoire, January 1980. Translated from French into English by Michel Prigent and Lucy Forsyth (T.N.), and published September 1982 by Chronos Press. English translation thoroughly proof-read and copy-edited by Bill Not Bored, May 2004. Footnotes by Gianfranco Sanguinetti, except those by the original translators (T.N.) or by Johnny Boredom [J.B.] July 2004. [1] The bombing of a busy bank in Milan's Piazza Fontana on 12 December 1969, which resulted in 16 deaths and 88 serious injuries, signalled the beginning of the so-called "Strategy of Tension" -- the general aim of this strategy, developed in the face of working class militancy, was to create a heightened sense of fear, disorientation and atomisation amongst the general population resulting form spectacular terrorist acts, leading to an increased identification with the authority of the state. While some on the far-right initially may have hoped that this would lead to a military take- over, this strategy became a more general response by the state and para-state agencies in periods of social unrest and political crisis uniting fascists, conservatives, and democrats. The Piazza Fontana bombing took place within the context of escalating class struggle and the deepening social crisis of the "Hot Autumn" of 1969. After the bombing, the police turned their attention to anarchist circles with remarkable speed, backed up by a hysterical media campaign. Anarchists, including Pietro Valpreda and railway worker Giuseppe Pinelli, were held for questioning in connection with the bombings. Pinelli 'jumped' to his death from the fourth floor office of the police station in which he was being questioned. (Pinelli's murder prompted Dario Fo to write his satirical play, The Accidental Death of an Anarchist.) After the state's farcical attempt to pin the blame on anarchists fell apart, the finger was pointed at fascists. The 'fascists' behind the bombing turned out to be working for the Italian secret state. The cover-up of the Piazza Fontana bombing would last decades. A short flyer issued by the Italian section of the Situationist International entitled Is the Reichstag Burning? was posted in Milan a few days after the bombing. The authors of this text -- Eduardo Rothe and Puni Cesoni -- denounced the bombing as a state provocation, unlike the vast majority of the Left at the time, which generally accepted police and media lies at face value. [J.B..] [2] On 16 March 1978, Christian Democratic Party leader Aldo Moro was kidnapped by the Red Brigades (Brigate Rosse, "RBs" for short, founded in 1970), in an operation notable for its brutality and military precision. Moro was an advocate of the so-called "Historic Compromise" in Italian politics. This was to involve a governing alliance between the Christian Democrats and the Italian Communist Party (PCI), the two biggest parties in Italy during the 1970's. Moro correctly perceived the completely reformist and essentially conservative nature of the Communist Party, which was a social- democratic party with large scale electoral support in the post-WWII period. He hoped that this policy would temper the radicalism of the working class by channelling workers demands through the structures of the PCI and its unions. Powerful and intransigent factions of the Italian ruling class, as well as the American ruling class, were totally opposed to PCI participation in government. Moro became increasingly preoccupied with opposition to his policy. After being held captive for fifty five days, Moro's body was found in the trunk of a car on Rome's Via Caetani on 9 May, symbolically halfway between the headquarters of the Christian Democratic and Communist Parties. Significantly, in 1964 a secret plot called "Piano Solo" (Plan Solo), organised by the fascist, intelligence chief and carabinieri leader General De Lorenzo, called for the assassination of Moro, who had promised an "opening to the left" (i.e. the Socialist Party), a precursor of the "Historic Compromise." The planned coup was called off at the last minute due to a compromise between the Socialist Party and the Christian Democrats. De Lorenzo went on to create a secret organisation named "La Rosa Dei Venti" (Rose of the Winds), which aimed at grouping together those intransigently hostile to the PCI. This conspiracy was a direct precursor to the Strategy of Tension and was integrated into the NATO "stay behind" networks known in Italy as "Operation Gladio" (see note [9] below). In 1990, during renovation of an apartment on the Via Montenevoso, Rome (a so-called "lair" of the Red Brigades), photocopies of previously unknown letters written by Aldo Moro during his captivity were discovered, along with weapons and money. Despite being concealed behind a simple panel, the cache had not been discovered during a "thorough" search of the apartment twelve years previously. [J.B.] [3] On 4 August 1974 a bomb was placed on an Italicus express train, resulting in 12 deaths and 105 injuries. The bombing was carried out by "fascists". Behind these fascists were the puppet masters of the Masonic lodge and the effective parallel government of the time, P2 -- "Potere Due," a Masonic Lodge, the Grandmaster of which was Lucio Gelli, whose members where drawn from all the main political parties, except the Communists, and all the branches of the state, especially the military and secret services (and that counted one Silvio Berlusconi amongst its members). P2 for a time formed the effective parallel government of Italy. [J.B.] [4] On 28 May 1974 a bomb went off in Brescia during a trade union anti-fascist rally, leaving eight dead and over one hundred injured. The bombing was claimed by a previously unknown fascist group, Ordine Nero (Black Order), which was later exposed as a secret service front. [J.B.] [5] Anarchists initially accused of being behind the Piazza Fontana bombing. See note [1] above. [J.B.] [6] Allusion to the defence of the secret services carried out by Moro in Parliament when they were accused of supporting General de Lorenzo's failed coup d'etat in 1964 (T.N.). [7] Very powerful head of the State's oil enterprise (ENI) killed before 1968, in other words before the spectacle of terrorism (T.N.). [8] Didn't the bankrupt [Michele] Sindona, a notorious liar, quite recently set up his own abduction in the U.S.A. (to which he had fled) to avoid a trial where he was to answer for the bankruptcy of the Franklin bank? A so-called "proletarian" group claimed his kidnapping, but no one believed it, since in America the press had not yet been so tamed in this domain as in Italy (T.N.). [9] Giulio Andreotti (1919- ), Christian Democrat leader and many times President of Italy. In 1990, after a series of denials, then Prime Minister Andreotti made a partial admission of the existence of the secret NATO sponsored "stay behind" network code named "Operation Gladio" in Italy (after the two-sided Roman sword). In the initial agreement that formed NATO in 1949, there was a secret clause that required that, before a nation could join, it must establish its own national security service capable of "Civil Emergency Planning," that is, of "intervening effectively [...] in the event of external socialist aggression or internal political upheavals." As a result, Operation Gladio was formally established in 1956, involving American and domestic intelligence organisations, as well as committed "anti- communists." The latter group inevitably contained a significant number of fascists. Many were drawn from the ranks of veterans of Mussolini's last stand, the Salo Republic. Armed with weapons located in hundreds of secret arms dumps around the country, they were originally established to go into action in the event of an Eastern Bloc invasion or domestic "subversion." Andreotti -- a P2 member -- attempted to legitimise the Gladio Networks, in a clear damage- limitation exercise. Andreotti was implicated in the March 1979 murder of journalist, one-time P2 member and publisher of Osservatore Politico Mino Pecorelli, but was later cleared in court. Pecorelli had revealed details of the P2 conspiracy shortly before his assassination, in an attempt to blackmail participants. The week before his murder, Pecorelli ran the headline "Assassinations, bombings, coup attempts -- the shadow of freemasonry hovered over them all: from Piazza Fontana to the Occorsio murder, from the Borghese coup to kidnappings. . ." The "Borghese coup" was the 7 December 1970 coup d'etat attempted by Prince Valerio Borghese, a former WWII naval commander and the founder of National Front, a right-wing group. [J.B.] [10] Christian Democrat Party [J.B.] [11] Italian Communist Party [J.B.] [12] Enrico Berlinguer (1922-84), leader of the PCI during the 1970's. Advocate of so-called "Eurocommunism", meaning independence from Moscow -- even going so far as to advocate continued Italian membership of NATO -- and an openly reformist, social-democratic ideology and practice. [J.B.] [13] Who had to resign soon after for barefaced corruption (T.N.). [14] Benito Craxi (1934-2000), anti-Communist leader of the Italian Socialist Party (PSI) from 1973 until his resignation in 1993, due to being implicated in the corruption scandals of the early 1990's. Sentenced to 14 years imprisonment while in exile in Tunisia, where he died. [J.B.] [15] Slogan[s] of the PCI (T.N.) [16] Extra-parliamentary Leftist group active from 1969 until 1976 [J.B.] [17] After the publication of this book, Negri paid dearly for the fact of having swallowed everything in connection with Moro (T.N.). Negri was arrested on 7 April 1979 and, along with dozens of other intellectuals involved in the Workers Autonomy movement, was accused of "armed insurrection against the powers of the State." Mass arrestes followed over the following months. To support these accusations, Negri's accusers portrayed him as the secret leader of the Red Brigades -- at one point accusing him of being directly involved in the Moro kidnapping, and even telephoning the Moro family on behalf of the RBs! After a four-year battle, which he waged from a jail cell, Negri was acquitted of all charges and released. When the Italian Chamber of Deputies subsequently voted to send him back to prison, he fled to France. In absentia, Negri was convicted of re- instated charges under (still in-effect) emergency laws that allow convictions solely based upon the testimony of accused persons who have "repented" their crimes and turned State's evidence. In 1997, in the hope that his action would bring an end to the decades-old deadlock, Negri returned to Italy and turned himself in. Granted no leniency whatsoever, he was sentenced to more than 13 years in prison, a sentence he began serving in July 1997. Negri has written his own reflections on the period in question, available in English in a collection of his more important earlier writings -- Revolution Retrieved (Red Notes, 1988). His more recent look at the same period is available on-line -- Reviewing the experience of Italy in the 1970's. Some of Negri's writings can be found in English translation at the Class Against Class website. For a more balanced, though critical view of Negri and the Italian Autonomist movement than Sanguinetti's, see Steve Wright's Negri's Class Analysis: Italian Autonomist Theory in the Seventies and his book Storming Heaven: Class composition and the struggle in Italian Autonomist Marxism (2002) [J.B.] [18] Guerchuni, arrested of course thanks to Azev, warmly recommended that his comrades place exactly this same Azev at the head of the Combat Organisation, and this in view of the courage and daring he had shown in transporting from Switzerland to Russia arms, explosives and publications of the party, whose Central Committee was still in exile in Geneva. [19] Reference to the wave of class struggle, and general social upheavals involving young workers, women and other groups. The gulf between this movement and the Italian Communist Party -- "The Party of Struggle," as the slogan went -- became increasingly obvious during this time, as the Party became engaged in ever-more desperate and futile attempts to gain access to central government. Finally, the PCI became the 'party of repression' (e.g. in Bologna during 1977, the PCI authorities sent in armoured cars to clear barricades set up after a young far-left militant was killed during clashes with the police.) When the Moro assassination of the following year saw the PCI's chances of participation in the central government evaporate, they became the most fanatical advocates of the persecution of the extra-parliamentary far-left, giving its full support to the extremely repressive "emergency legislation" and encourging party members to grass on militant workers and activists of the far-left. Sanguinetti examines the central role of the PCI in this judicial persecution in his 1980 Preface to the French Edition of On Terrorism [J.B.] [20] Mariano Rumor, a Christian Democrat politician [J.B.] [21] Reference to General Pinochet's US-backed coup d'etat in Chile in 1973, overthrowing the elected centre-left Popular Unity government led by Salvador Allende [J.B.] [22] Leonardo Sciascia (1921-89), Sicilian author of several short novels analysing post-war Italian society and politics, notably The Knight and Death, Equal Danger, The Day of the Owl and To Each His Own. Also author of the essay The Moro Affair, to which Sanguinetti is referring here. [J.B.] [23] Luigi Calabresi, the cop who was questioning Pinelli at the time of his "suicide," was assassinated outside his Milan home in May 1972. Initially, the finger was pointed at the extra-parliamentary Leftist group Lotta Continua. In 1974 two fascists, Gianni Nardi and Bruno Stefano, as well as a German woman, Gudrun Kiess, were charged with the murder of Calabresi, but the charges are later dropped without explanation. Nardi, the son of a billionaire industrialist and an associate of the state asset and neo-Nazi, Stefano delle Chiaie, was later killed in mysterious circumstances. In 1988, ex- Lotta Continua militants Adriano Sofri, Giorgio Pietrostefani and Ovidio Bompressi were arrested and charged with involvement in the assassination. A series of farcical trials, convictions and acquittals followed over the next decade. The charges were based on the accusations of their ex-comrade, Leonardo Marino, whose testimony was riddled with contradictions and outright lies. During the trials, it became clear that Marino had undergone extensive coaching by the police. The trio were eventually imprisoned for their supposed involvement in Calabresi's murder. During a ceremony inaugurating a bust to commemorate Calabresi outside Milan police headquarters in 1973, Gianfranco Bertoli, a self-proclaimed "individualist anarchist," threw a hand-grenade into the crowd, killing four bystanders. In 1990 would emerge that Bertoli had once worked for Italian military intelligence and was a member of the Gladio networks. [J.B.] [24] Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, millionaire publisher with Leftist sympathies. Killed in 1972, apparently during an attempt to blow up an electricity pylon on his own land, as part of an Armed Partisan Group (GAP) action. Sanguinetti is clearly casting doubt on this version of events, suspecting, like many others, that he had been assassinated. At the time of Feltrinelli's death, sections of the media insinuated that the Situationists might be behind his death, basing this disinformation on the fact that the Situationists, and Sanguinetti in particular, had had an acrimonious exchange with members of Feltrinelli's publishing house concerning the translation of some situationist publications. Feltrinelli wasn't the only publisher with radical sympathies to die in mysterious circumstances. In 1984 Gerard Lebovici, a prominent Parisian film producer and publisher who was personally and politically close to ex-Situationist Guy Debord, was shot by still unidentified assassins, Needless to say, sections of the French media lost no time in insinuating that Debord was behind the murder of his fried. For more on the assassination of Lebovici, see Jean-Francois Martos, Words and Bullets: the Condemned of the Lebovici Affair (1984), and Guy Debord, Considerations on the Assassination of Gerard Lebovici (1985). [J.B.] [25] This has been clearly verified since the publication of this book, by the waves of mass arrests of 7 April and 21 December 1979 (T.N.). [26] Regional administrators (T.N.). [27] There have been various attempts to explain state involvement in far-right terrorism in terms of infiltration of the state by fascists, the actions of so-called 'rouge elements', etc. Liberals and leftists are particularly keen on this sort of apologetic obfuscation. The Gladio revelations make clear that this is nonsense. A more accurate picture of events would been provided by the neo- fascist terrorist Vincenzo Vinciguerra: "every bombing in Italy after 1969 was linked to one group…The orders are given by an apparatus belonging to the state, specifically by a secret parallel structure of the Interior Ministry." It should be noted that the objectives of far-right organisations are broadly identical to those leading the state, and that many of the supporters and activists of fascist organisations are drawn from the states' apparatus of repression, makes it very easy for them to be infiltrated and manipulated by state agents. [J.B.] [28] Defence Intelligence Service (Servizio Informazioni Difesa). The organisation was disbanded in 1977 after knowledge of its involvement in the Piazza Fontana bombing and other acts of terrorism became well known, with two organisations taking its place -- SISDE and SISMI. For more information, see note [38] below. In September 1974, General Vito Micelli was charged with involvement in a failed 1970 coup attempt by the veteran Fascist Valerio Borghese and state asset Stefano delle Chiaie's neo-Nazi Avanguardia Nazionale organisation. During his trial, Micelli defended himself, disclosing the existence of a "Parallel SID" formed as a result of a secret agreement with the United States within the framework of NATO (i.e. Operation Gladio). [J.B.] [29] Slogan of the PCI (T.N.). [30] Code of silence (T.N.). [31] In January 1970 Bombs, blood, capital appeared, a tract of Ludd's which openly accused the secret services of the massacre, the sole exception to the general rout. [32] Christian Democrat Minister (T.N.) [33] Armed Proletarian Nuclei. [34] This bloodthirsty spectacle was offered in a drip-feed, but repeatedly: when the police waited for Abatangelo outside the Florence bank and killed two of his comrades; when Mantini's sister was shot down in cold-blood in her secret hide-out in Rome, and in a dozen other cases. And they still perhaps want to have it believed that it is by chance, and not due to infiltration, that the "Benemerita" [Carabinieri - the national para-military police force] achieved these successes? [35] Salvano Girotto, an agent provocateur nicknamed "Brother Machine Gun" [J.B.] [36] Renato Curcio, co-founder of the Red Brigades. Arrested in 1974, an action that allowed Mario Moretti and his strategy of constant military escalation to dominate the group. It was suggested at the time, and subsequently confirmed, that Moretti was a CIA-connected agent provocateur. [J.B.] [37] Carabineri general in charge of "anti-terrorism" and credited with the defeat of the Red Brigades. Assassinated in 1982, ostensibly by the Mafia, shortly after giving evidence to the commission set up to investigate Moro's assassination. [J.B.] [38] Three of the official secret services, to which must be added UCIGOS, DIGOS and others secret enough for their names to remain unknown (T.N.). DIGOS (Direzione per le investigazoni generali e per le operazioni speciali) "anti-terrorist" police unit. SISDE (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Democrarica -- Democratic Information and Security Service) the secret service of the Ministry of the Interior; SISME (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Militare -- Military Information and Security Service) the secret service of the Ministry of Defence. The Italian secret services have gone through a bewildering series of name changes in the post-war period, in response to revelations of their involvement in domestic terrorism and other scandals. SISDE and SISME were created in 1977, to replace the SID (Servizio Informazioni Difesa -- Defence Intelligence Service) the image of which had been damaged by revelations concerning involvement in the Piazza Fontana bombing. SID was created in 1965, having previously been known as SIFAR (Servizio Informazioni Forze Armate -- Armed Forces Information Service), the military intelligence service which was created in 1949. Due to their knowledge of "subversives", many of the personnel were drawn form the Fascist intelligence services such as SIM (Servizio Information Militari -- Military Information Service), a pattern repeated throughout occupied Europe. [J.B.] [39] On Terrorism and the State is but one chapter in a much longer book called Remedy to Everything, the subtitle of which was Discourses on the next chances of ruining capitalism in Italy. It was never published. The original Preface and On Terrorism were published together in 1979 with the full title On Terrorism and the State: the theory and practice of terrorism divulged for the first time. According to the publisher of the French edition, Gerard Lebovici, the sections of Remedy published as On Terrorism were "incontestably of the greatest interest". Guy Debord, who collaborated with Sanguinetti after the dissolution of the Situationist International, of which they were both members, and who influenced Sanguinetti greatly, criticised On Terrorism as being "extremely deficient theoretically" along with its "pretentious tone...he has the insolence to treat -- and reduce to a ridiculous schemata -- the historical and strategic question of armed struggle in general and the particular case of all terrorism as it has existed in many diverse forms throughout history." [J.B.] [40] General Gianadelio Maletti, P2 member and former head of military counter-intelligence (SID) during the early 1970's. In 2001, during the trial of fascists implicated in the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing, Maletti claimed that "The CIA, following the directives of its government, wanted to create an Italian nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and, for this purpose, it may have made use of rightwing terrorism...I believe this is what happened in other countries as well." Maletti obviously had reason to focus attention on the American role in the Strategy of Tension, thereby downplaying the role of domestic forces [J.B.] [41] As if by some fortunate coincidence, whilst this book was being printed in French (1980), Craxi devised an attempt against himself (T.N.) [42] "I now am without stain before the throne." Biblical passage quoted by Bossuet in Oraisons Funebres. (T.N.) [43] 'Censor' (Gianfranco Sanguinetti), Rapporto Veridico sulle ultime opportunita di salvare il capitalismo in Italia, Milan, July 1975; second, third and fourth editions, Mursia, October 1975; also Prove dell 'inesistenza di Censor, enunciate dal suo autore, Milan, January 1976. These two texts have been published in French: Veridique Rapport sur les Dernieres Chances de Sauver Ie Capitalisme en Italia and Preuves de I'inexistence de Censor par son auteur, Paris, Champ Libre, 1976. (T.N.) Recently translated into English as The Real Report on the Last Chance to Save Capitalism in Italy (Flatland Books, 1997). See also NOT BORED!'s translation. [J.B.] [44] Cf. A. Ronchey, Accade in Italia, 1968-1977. [45] In English in the text (T.N.) [46] Cf. Notice to the proletariat on the events of the last hours, Rome, 7 April 1977. [47] Vittorio Occorsio, a judge, was shot dead in June 1976. The neo- Nazi group Ordine Nuovo (New Order) claimed responsibility, but Occorsio's on-going investigation into "fascist" terrorism had uncovered links between far-right groups, the secret state, organised crime and the Italian Masonic Lodge P2 [J.B.] [48] In their first major operation, the Red Brigades kidnapped Mario Sossi, a right-wing Genoese magistrate, who was held and then released without any concessions from the authorities. It was later revealed that the secret services planned to kidnap a left-wing lawyer in contact with the RBs, in order to force Sossi's release. [J.B.] [49] See note [28] above [J.B.] [50] "Things it is good to silence" (Dante) [51] Captain Antonino Labruna, fascist, P2 member and SID officer implicated in "the strategy of tension." Agent responsible for leasing directly with many of Italy's leading fascists, including the neo-Nazi Stefano delle Chiaie. [J.B.] [52] For its own house, for its own cause. (T.N.) [53] Paul-Louis Courier, Pamphlets politiques. [54] "You will be surprised, when you have reached the end, at not having convinced us of anything." Quotation from Paul-Louis Courier, in French in the text. (T.N.) [55] The revelations concerning the Masonic Lodge P2 and the Gladio networks were to confirm Sanguinetti's views. [J.B.] [56] Subsequent events were to prove Sanguinetti's prophecy grimly prescient. On 2 August 1980 a powerful bomb exploded in the second class waiting room at Bologna railway station, resulting in 85 deaths and 200 injuries. Fascists ostensibly carried out the bombing. A series of right-wingers were later convicted (and then acquitted). However, it soon became clear that more powerful interests lay behind the attack. It was established that the explosives used were from a Gladio arsenal, and subsequent investigations implicated the Masonic Lodge P2, and its Grand Master Lucio Gelli. [J.B.] [57] Cf. the manifesto distributed on 23 September 1977 in Bologna, Rome and Milan, entitled Benvenuti nella citta piu libera del mondo (Welcome to the freest city in the world). From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 12:26:14 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 23:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=E2=80=98internal?= =?utf-8?q?ly_displaced_persons=E2=80=99_status?= In-Reply-To: <995a19920811011512j6dbfe12q9b6cf81e3d986699@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <990380.82010.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the word plebiscite.  Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody including UN should insist for the territorial return.     --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: From: Aman Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced persons’ status To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated plebiscite as well. a. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By Indo-Asian > News Service on > Friday, October 31, 2008 > > Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that > the community, which fled the Kashmir > Valleyduring the peak of > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > displaced persons (IDPs). > > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the community > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is on > a two-day visit to India. > > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community we, > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had recognised > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of the > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community - should > be removed from all records and communications relating to us henceforth," > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape persecution.. > > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but now we > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our own!" > fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' status. He > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > militantsthreatened us time and > again - merge with us (with political and religious > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the insurgency. > > Amongst those present from the community were varsity > students, > who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when we > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old student > activist from Delhi University. > > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian government > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > Link - > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 12:37:24 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:37:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <32144e990811010517ob4b3716g43710317599816e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811010226w79344823tdc3835705188023e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811010447u28f10965x8c356fecaded60d3@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990811010517ob4b3716g43710317599816e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811020007s453afe5bx4ced0b5ab53b19d6@mail.gmail.com> Partha, What ShudHaaa wants is that KP's should be in a submissive mood and he has targetted only those two organisation which have been the most vocal and agressive for KP cause. This Shuddha with an agenda has never said the same about JKLF. Shuddha's lip service can be well understood , somewhere he pretends to balance. We dont need him or his lip service. Let him serve his masters and we would continue to counter their agenda. Pawan On 11/1/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Keeping the irrelevance of Aarti's singing voice aside, would like to point > out that you talk of love and peace, and then talk of hanging - not to > mention your sign off where a state in the news for throwing out migrants is > being praised. > > Shuddha's mail (and a long one at that) made some points - essentially that > the Kashmiri Pandit's are displaced, and that they've got the most support > amongst the displaced communities, and that a segment (Panun Kashmir and > Roots in Kashmir) is dividing the community. If you disagree, place the > facts to support your reason and let's talk, else what you say has no > foundation. > > Take a clear look at what was said, your response and what you stand for, > as it certainly is unclear to me. > > Rgds, Partha > .................................. > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> AaAri, >> >> I shouldnt ask you to shut up. Infact i would love to hear you in person >> some day. You must be a good singer........ >> >> However if you have left your braun back home, the subject was raised by >> Shuddha , whom you seem to have been defending.It is better you ask him to >> stop. >> >> I can understand your leftist leaning and your commitment towards a fellow >> comrade , but have some sense....check what started it . >> >> I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also it is >> not my paid job. >> >> Till the time , some of you with certain defeatist mentality occupy this >> stage , you would meet the resistence. >> >> Love us or hate us........ >> >> Better to love.......that is how peace starts..... >> >> By any chance .....are u a JNU alumni ? >> >> >> Pawan >> >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> >> >> >> On 11/1/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> > >> > Actually Pawan I think what Shuddha is trying to say is that you too >> should >> > shut up your lip service because by now its absolutely clear that is all >> it >> > is. Why don't we all shut up our lip service to our various pet peeves >> and >> > hurts. We are all exhausted with containing your victimization Pawan. >> Truly >> > we are. Every time I see one more rant about what a terrible time you >> have >> > had my eyes glaze over. Yaar everyone has had a terrible time. Take a >> quick >> > survey on this little readers-list. I garauntee the amount of pain, >> > suffering and hurt - historical, communal, personal, economic, religious >> - >> > that will come tumbling out will astonish you. But the readers-list is >> not >> > an analyst's couch Pawan and we are not therapists. We are weak and >> badly >> > equipped to deal with the insurmountable mountain of your suffering. We >> are, >> > many of us, barely equipped to deal with our own. So please, do not take >> > umbrage at what Shuddha or Kirdar say. They are only expressing the >> frailty >> > of the human psyche when confronted with a relentless barrage of >> undigested >> > mulch. >> > >> > with respectful regards >> > Aarti >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani > >wrote: >> > >> >> Dear Shuddha, >> >> >> >> It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen >> . >> >> >> >> Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from >> >> raising >> >> their voices. >> >> >> >> Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural >> for >> >> us >> >> to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we >> >> can >> >> support others. >> >> >> >> Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike >> >> some >> >> surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion. >> >> >> >> Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We >> know >> >> where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. >> >> >> >> Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play >> >> around and instead take a walk. >> >> >> >> I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. >> >> >> >> And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in >> >> the >> >> Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. >> >> >> >> We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 >> >> migrations in 10 centuries......... >> >> >> >> >> >> Now ...no more........ >> >> >> >> >> >> No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... >> >> >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> >> > exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> >> > matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> >> > interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> >> > rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> > >> >> > I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> >> > Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> >> > Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> >> > on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> >> > Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> >> > implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> >> > taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> > >> >> > It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> >> > Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> >> > liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> >> > listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> >> > making. >> >> > >> >> > Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> >> > who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> >> > and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> > Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> >> > solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> >> > discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> >> > and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> >> > perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> >> > politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> >> > difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> >> > are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> >> > the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> >> > secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> >> > 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> >> > Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> >> > extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> > >> >> > In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> >> > the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> >> > displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> >> > status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> >> > (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> >> > continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> >> > these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> >> > need to be seen in this light. >> >> > >> >> > While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> >> > of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> >> > of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> > >> >> > Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> >> > community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> >> > displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> >> > less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> >> > concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> >> > monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> >> > the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> >> > does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> >> > displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> >> > internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> >> > the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> >> > Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> >> > displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> >> > this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> >> > organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> >> > Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> >> > stranglehold. >> >> > >> >> > The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> > Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> >> > fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> >> > needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> >> > internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> >> > the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> >> > that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> >> > community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> >> > predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> >> > Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> >> > Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> >> > political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> >> > Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> >> > Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> >> > indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> >> > Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> >> > on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> >> > necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> > >> >> > This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> >> > of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> >> > consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> >> > stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> >> > are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> >> > displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> >> > displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> > >> >> > We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> >> > communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> >> > had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> >> > behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> > >> >> > a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> >> > behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> >> > Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> >> > court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> > >> >> > to a series of >> >> > >> >> > b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> >> > gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> >> > as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> >> > from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> >> > be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> > >> >> > In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> >> > constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> >> > Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> >> > of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> >> > A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> >> > development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> >> > migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> >> > returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> >> > amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> > >> >> > In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> >> > time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> >> > the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> >> > camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> >> > released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> >> > the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> > >> >> > [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> >> > 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> >> > - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> >> > Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> >> > association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> > >> >> > I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> >> > the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> >> > however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> >> > displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> >> > as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> >> > behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> >> > internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> >> > made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> >> > less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> >> > Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> > >> >> > Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> >> > internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> > >> >> > I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> >> > at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> >> > international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> >> > internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> >> > looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> >> > displacement in India. >> >> > >> >> > see - >> >> > >> >> > This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> >> > the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> >> > and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> >> > internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> > >> >> > ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> > >> >> > "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> >> > in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> > >> >> > · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> >> > · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> >> > Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> >> > the ceasefire >> >> > · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> >> > Bodos during the 1990s >> >> > · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> >> > · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> > >> >> > (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> >> > people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> >> > Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> >> > updates.) >> >> > >> >> > The site goes on to say - >> >> > >> >> > "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> >> > identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> >> > 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> >> > area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> >> > counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> >> > the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> >> > return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> >> > undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> >> > Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> >> > estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> >> > decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> >> > displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> >> > state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> >> > conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> >> > to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> >> > Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> >> > example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> >> > a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> >> > current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> >> > population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> >> > unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> >> > residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> > >> >> > It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> >> > far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> >> > give a global estimate." >> >> > >> >> > ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> > >> >> > "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> >> > reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> >> > the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> >> > education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> >> > reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> >> > East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> >> > makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> >> > education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> >> > food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> >> > acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> >> > state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> >> > displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> >> > government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> >> > insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> >> > at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> >> > years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> >> > Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> >> > a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> >> > in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> > >> >> > The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> >> > displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> >> > that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> >> > protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> >> > of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> >> > or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> >> > HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> >> > poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> >> > Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> >> > female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> >> > camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> >> > facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> >> > 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> >> > IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> > >> >> > ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> > >> >> > "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> >> > international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> >> > Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> >> > India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> >> > the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> >> > delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> >> > documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> >> > engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> >> > been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> >> > those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> > >> >> > ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> >> > POPULATIONS >> >> > >> >> > "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> >> > populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> >> > to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> >> > main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> >> > practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> >> > p.68). >> >> > >> >> > The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> >> > internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> >> > overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> >> > elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> > >> >> > The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> >> > Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> >> > human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> >> > Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> >> > One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> >> > reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> >> > receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> >> > assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> >> > than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> >> > be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> >> > work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> >> > Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> >> > as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> >> > displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> >> > regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> > >> >> > INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> > >> >> > "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> >> > internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> >> > the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> >> > population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> >> > displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> >> > Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> >> > that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> >> > rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> > >> >> > Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> >> > perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> >> > realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> >> > called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> >> > of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> >> > of internal displacement in India. >> >> > >> >> > Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> >> > populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> >> > of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> >> > careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> >> > from that point of view, the situation of >> >> > >> >> > According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> >> > Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> >> > by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> >> > % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> >> > political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> >> > say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> >> > attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> >> > population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> > >> >> > In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> >> > Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> >> > part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> >> > as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> >> > Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> >> > affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> >> > retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> >> > did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> >> > Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> > >> >> > In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> >> > diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> >> > as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> >> > homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> >> > so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> >> > 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> >> > the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> >> > Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> >> > different. ' >> >> > >> >> > I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> >> > matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> >> > refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> >> > mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> >> > who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> >> > the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> >> > incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> >> > other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> >> > Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> >> > Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> >> > be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> >> > faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> >> > political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> >> > Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> > >> >> > I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> >> > on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> >> > hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> >> > oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> >> > this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> >> > we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> >> > against oppression. >> >> > >> >> > regards, >> >> > >> >> > Shuddha >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 12:39:24 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:39:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811010608y39995031m75a41dbd5f301b4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811010608y39995031m75a41dbd5f301b4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811020009v61ebfffdn75a28a7da047603b@mail.gmail.com> IInder, till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand Temple. Pawan On 11/1/08, inder salim wrote: > > dear Pawan, > > Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai > Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) > > Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a deep > commitment. > And if the Brahman dies in the temple of idols, bury him the Kabba. > # > Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief ( Imaan ) here, > is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as > Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of > idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never > bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi > traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must > have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation > > well, if you can please convey the below mentioned couplet to Jai > Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it > is again > > BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN > FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) > > HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, > IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA > > > without malice towards one and all > > is > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . > > > > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from > raising > > their voices. > > > > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for > us > > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we > can > > support others. > > > > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike > some > > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their > > cause by trying to create an opinion. > > > > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We > know > > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. > > > > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play > > around and instead take a walk. > > > > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. > > > > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in > the > > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. > > > > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 > > migrations in 10 centuries......... > > > > > > Now ...no more........ > > > > > > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... > > > > > > Pawan > > > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > > > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >> > >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > >> taken to ensure that this can happen. > >> > >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > >> making. > >> > >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >> extractive and authoritarian state. > >> > >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > >> need to be seen in this light. > >> > >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > >> of the many displaced communities in India. > >> > >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >> stranglehold. > >> > >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > >> > >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >> > >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >> > >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >> > >> to a series of > >> > >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >> > >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >> > >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >> > >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > >> > >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >> > >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > >> internally displaced communities in India are like. > >> > >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > >> displacement in India. > >> > >> see - > >> > >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >> > >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >> > >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >> > >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > >> the ceasefire > >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > >> Bodos during the 1990s > >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > >> > >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > >> updates.) > >> > >> The site goes on to say - > >> > >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >> > >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > >> give a global estimate." > >> > >> ON RELIEF CAMPS > >> > >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >> > >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > >> IIJ, December 2003). " > >> > >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >> > >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >> > >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > >> POPULATIONS > >> > >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > >> p.68). > >> > >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >> > >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > >> > >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >> > >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > >> > >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > >> of internal displacement in India. > >> > >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > >> from that point of view, the situation of > >> > >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >> > >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > >> > >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > >> different. ' > >> > >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > >> > >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > >> against oppression. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 16:14:06 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:14:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811020009v61ebfffdn75a28a7da047603b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811010608y39995031m75a41dbd5f301b4b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811020009v61ebfffdn75a28a7da047603b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811020244j72128784v66ecaa812044bb3d@mail.gmail.com> well, dear pawan how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, it is beyond my comprehension. why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this question? well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our intolerance towards the other is the core reason. we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and profoundity at the same time. lot of love and regards is p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from all this On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > IInder, > > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand Temple. > > Pawan > > > On 11/1/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> dear Pawan, >> >> Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai >> Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) >> >> Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a deep >> commitment. >> And if the Brahman dies in the temple of idols, bury him the Kabba. >> # >> Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief ( Imaan ) here, >> is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as >> Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of >> idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never >> bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi >> traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must >> have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation >> >> well, if you can please convey the below mentioned couplet to Jai >> Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it >> is again >> >> BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN >> FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) >> >> HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, >> IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA >> >> >> without malice towards one and all >> >> is >> >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Shuddha, >> > >> > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . >> > >> > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from >> > raising >> > their voices. >> > >> > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for >> > us >> > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we >> > can >> > support others. >> > >> > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike >> > some >> > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> > cause by trying to create an opinion. >> > >> > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We >> > know >> > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. >> > >> > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play >> > around and instead take a walk. >> > >> > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. >> > >> > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in >> > the >> > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. >> > >> > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 >> > migrations in 10 centuries......... >> > >> > >> > Now ...no more........ >> > >> > >> > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... >> > >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> >> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> >> making. >> >> >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> >> extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> >> need to be seen in this light. >> >> >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> >> of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> >> stranglehold. >> >> >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> >> >> to a series of >> >> >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> >> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> >> displacement in India. >> >> >> >> see - >> >> >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> >> the ceasefire >> >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> >> Bodos during the 1990s >> >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> >> updates.) >> >> >> >> The site goes on to say - >> >> >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> >> give a global estimate." >> >> >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> >> IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> >> POPULATIONS >> >> >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> >> p.68). >> >> >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> >> of internal displacement in India. >> >> >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> >> from that point of view, the situation of >> >> >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> >> different. ' >> >> >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> >> against oppression. >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 19:37:24 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:37:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <990380.82010.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <995a19920811011512j6dbfe12q9b6cf81e3d986699@mail.gmail.com> <990380.82010.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense when there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never occurred, because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you would need to re-think your position. On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: > > If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the > word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like > boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody > including UN should insist for the territorial return. > > > > --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: > > From: Aman Sethi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM > > Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated > plebiscite as well. > a. > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By > Indo-Asian > > News Service > on > > Friday, October 31, 2008 > > > > Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations > > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that > > the community, which fled the Kashmir > > Valleyduring the peak of > > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > > displaced persons (IDPs). > > > > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital > > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India > Kashmir > > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the > community > > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona > Bose > > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is > on > > a two-day visit to India. > > > > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community > we, > > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu > community > > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > > > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had > recognised > > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of > the > > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community > - should > > be removed from all records and communications relating to us > henceforth," > > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > > > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri > Hindus > > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when > > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape > persecution.. > > > > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but > now we > > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our > own!" > > fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > > > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' > status. He > > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > > > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > > militantsthreatened us time > and > > again - merge with us (with political and religious > > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the > insurgency. > > > > Amongst those present from the community were varsity > > students, > > who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > > > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when > we > > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old > student > > activist from Delhi University. > > > > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian > government > > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and > > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > > > Link - > > > > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From hanybabu at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 20:44:52 2008 From: hanybabu at gmail.com (hany babu) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:44:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Meeting on Communalism, Fascism, and Democracy in Delhi University Message-ID: <5f4dddc70811020714n295ae346na0f0c2d7a865f5ec@mail.gmail.com> *You are cordially invited for a*** *PUBLIC MEETING*** * * *ON*** *COMMUNALISM, FASCISM AND DEMOCRACY* *RHETORIC AND REALITY* * * We all are witness to the series of bomb blasts across the country including in Delhi. The series of blasts from Hyderabad, Bangalore, Jaipur, Malegaon to Delhi have pushed the people to the brink of xenophobia and have given teeth to the government to brazen towards a fascist policy of governance. The Delhi blast spurt the government into action and as usual it led to the fixed target-hunting of two young Muslims in the Muslim ghetto of Jamia Nagar without an iota of evidence proved against the deceased so far for their alleged 'terrorist activities', accompanied by the mysterious gunning down of a Delhi Special Cell police officer. The atrocities on Christians in Kandhamal, Orissa and the spate in the attack on the churches and other Christian institutions in Karnataka, Tamilnadu with the active connivance of the respective governments stand testimony to the sanction for the Hindutva fascist activities in the recent times—killing, raping and maiming. Worst kinds of atrocities are being committed by the fascist Hindutva forces in Jammu, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and elsewhere. In view of this increasing onslaught of the right- wing Hindu communal-fascist forces, a public meeting is going to be held in the University of Delhi by students and teachers. We invite you to come and participate in the meeting. *Date & Time:* *6 November, 2008 (Thursday)* *11 AM* * * *VENUE:* *Room No.22, Arts faculty, University of Delhi ** * * * *SPEAKERS:* Chair: *SAR Geelani*, Lecturer, Zakir Husain College *Ajit Sahi*, Sr Journalist, Tehelka *Rajesh Ramchandran*, Sr Journalist, *Mail Today* *Arjumand Ara*, Department of Urdu, University of Delhi, *Neshat Quaiser*, Department of Sociology, Jamia Milia * * * * *Contact Persons: Natasha 9873596285, Umar Khalid 9873961701, Zeyaul Haque 9911814208, universitycommunity at gmail.com*** -- University Community Students and Teachers of University of Delhi From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 20:53:26 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:53:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <995a19920811011512j6dbfe12q9b6cf81e3d986699@mail.gmail.com> <990380.82010.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811020723w1198da74l6483841581c601a2@mail.gmail.com> arti, kofi anna is on record having said that un resolution on kashmir are irrelevant . Pawan On 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense when > there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never occurred, > because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you would > need to re-think your position. > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: > >> >> If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the >> word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like >> boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody >> including UN should insist for the territorial return. >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: >> >> From: Aman Sethi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM >> >> Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated >> plebiscite as well. >> a. >> >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By >> Indo-Asian >> > News Service >> on >> > Friday, October 31, 2008 >> > >> > Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United >> > Nations >> > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding >> > that >> > the community, which fled the Kashmir >> > Valleyduring the peak of >> > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally >> > displaced persons (IDPs). >> > >> > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital >> > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India >> Kashmir >> > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the >> community >> > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona >> Bose >> > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is >> on >> > a two-day visit to India. >> > >> > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community >> we, >> > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu >> community >> > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the >> > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. >> > >> > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had >> recognised >> > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of >> the >> > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community >> - should >> > be removed from all records and communications relating to us >> henceforth," >> > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. >> > >> > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri >> Hindus >> > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, >> > when >> > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape >> persecution.. >> > >> > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but >> now we >> > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political >> > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our >> own!" >> > fumed Raj Raina, 37. >> > >> > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' >> status. He >> > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. >> > >> > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, >> > militantsthreatened us time >> and >> > again - merge with us (with political and religious >> > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the >> insurgency. >> > >> > Amongst those present from the community were varsity >> > students, >> > who also held that the current situation was sordid. >> > >> > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when >> we >> > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old >> student >> > activist from Delhi University. >> > >> > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian >> government >> > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population >> > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political >> > and >> > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class >> > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. >> > >> > Link - >> > >> >> http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 20:56:50 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 07:26:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=E2=80=98internal?= =?utf-8?q?ly_displaced_persons=E2=80=99_status?= In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Aarti,   Needless to say your comments are just ridiculous.  At the time of PAKISTAN creation under 2 nation theory It was under legal accession of INDIA(BRITISH).  It was the INDIA(on its own) gave life to PAKISTAN  2nd time after 1971 war.  You should awake from your unconcious, absentive  state of mind.  Hence you start demaning for POK and rest of the occupied terrotories return.  Probably at some day it may possible as it was not possible before.    Dhatri.           --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced persons’ status To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com Cc: aman.am at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:37 PM As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense when there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never occurred, because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you would need to re-think your position. On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the word plebiscite.  Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody including UN should insist for the territorial return.     --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: From: Aman Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated plebiscite as well. a. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By Indo-Asian > News Service on > Friday, October 31, 2008 > >  Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that > the community, which fled the Kashmir > Valleyduring the peak of > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > displaced persons (IDPs). > > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the community > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is on > a two-day visit to India. > > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community we, > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had recognised > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of the > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community - should > be removed from all records and communications relating to us henceforth," > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape persecution... > > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but now we > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our own!" > fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' status. He > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > militantsthreatened us time and > again - merge with us (with political and religious > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the insurgency. > > Amongst those present from the community were varsity > students, > who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when we > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old student > activist from Delhi University. > > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian government > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > Link - > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 21:00:57 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:00:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> well said On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: > Aarti, > > Needless to say your comments are just ridiculous. At the time of PAKISTAN > creation under 2 nation theory It was under legal accession of > INDIA(BRITISH). It was the INDIA(on its own) gave life to PAKISTAN 2nd > time after 1971 war. You should awake from your unconcious, absentive > state of mind. Hence you start demaning for POK and rest of the occupied > terrotories return. Probably at some day it may possible as it was not > possible before. > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > From: Aarti Sethi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com > Cc: aman.am at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:37 PM > > > As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense when > there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never occurred, > because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you would > need to re-think your position. > > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: > > > If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the > word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like > boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody > including UN should insist for the territorial return. > > > > --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: > > From: Aman Sethi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM > > > > > Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated > plebiscite as well. > a. > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By > Indo-Asian >> News Service > on >> Friday, October 31, 2008 >> >> Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations >> High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that >> the community, which fled the Kashmir >> Valleyduring the peak of >> militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally >> displaced persons (IDPs). >> >> The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital >> like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir >> Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the > community >> in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose >> of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is > on >> a two-day visit to India. >> >> "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community > we, >> therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community >> as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the >> 100-odd protestors, told IANS. >> >> "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had > recognised >> Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of > the >> insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community > - should >> be removed from all records and communications relating to us > henceforth," >> Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. >> >> Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus >> have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when >> more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape >> persecution... >> >> "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but > now we >> are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political >> representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our > own!" >> fumed Raj Raina, 37. >> >> Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' > status. He >> is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. >> >> "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, >> militantsthreatened us time > and >> again - merge with us (with political and religious >> views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the > insurgency. >> >> Amongst those present from the community were varsity >> students, >> who also held that the current situation was sordid. >> >> "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when > we >> were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old > student >> activist from Delhi University. >> >> "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian > government >> to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population >> living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and >> economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class >> citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. >> >> Link - >> > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 21:20:05 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 07:50:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811020244j72128784v66ecaa812044bb3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <407913.1049.qm@web45504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Inder,          Well If I say JAI HIND whose slogan is that.  We dont ask some alien foreigner to say JAI HIND and expect to do so even(I hope there is no ambiguity in this).        Now the question is why don't you do the same thing(experience/feel the response) in a mosque as you did it on a HINDU idol.  Dont be dubious about there is void INSIDE(you and the mosque as well).  CONCENTRATE well for a reply.      Dhatri. --- On Sun, 11/2/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM well, dear pawan how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, it is beyond my comprehension. why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this question? well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our intolerance towards the other is the core reason. we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and profoundity at the same time. lot of love and regards is p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from all this On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > IInder, > > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand Temple. > > Pawan > > > On 11/1/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> dear Pawan, >> >> Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai >> Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) >> >> Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a deep >> commitment. >> And if the Brahman dies in the temple of idols, bury him the Kabba. >> # >> Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief ( Imaan ) here, >> is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as >> Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of >> idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never >> bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi >> traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must >> have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation >> >> well, if you can please convey the below mentioned couplet to Jai >> Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it >> is again >> >> BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN >> FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) >> >> HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, >> IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA >> >> >> without malice towards one and all >> >> is >> >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Shuddha, >> > >> > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . >> > >> > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from >> > raising >> > their voices. >> > >> > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for >> > us >> > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we >> > can >> > support others. >> > >> > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike >> > some >> > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> > cause by trying to create an opinion. >> > >> > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We >> > know >> > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. >> > >> > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play >> > around and instead take a walk. >> > >> > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. >> > >> > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in >> > the >> > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. >> > >> > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 >> > migrations in 10 centuries......... >> > >> > >> > Now ...no more........ >> > >> > >> > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... >> > >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> >> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> >> making. >> >> >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> >> extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> >> need to be seen in this light. >> >> >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> >> of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> >> stranglehold. >> >> >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> >> >> to a series of >> >> >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> >> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> >> displacement in India. >> >> >> >> see - >> >> >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> >> the ceasefire >> >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> >> Bodos during the 1990s >> >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> >> updates.) >> >> >> >> The site goes on to say - >> >> >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> >> give a global estimate." >> >> >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> >> IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> >> POPULATIONS >> >> >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> >> p.68). >> >> >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> >> of internal displacement in India. >> >> >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> >> from that point of view, the situation of >> >> >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> >> different. ' >> >> >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> >> against oppression. >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 21:26:07 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:26:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <407913.1049.qm@web45504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70811020244j72128784v66ecaa812044bb3d@mail.gmail.com> <407913.1049.qm@web45504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811020756n7c611b65u2cf8f0cffa97d9c3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, It takes great pride and clear conscience to say 'Jai Hind'. People like Inder Salim will only say, 'Jai Yasin Malik', 'Jai Communalism' and 'Jai Islamic Terrorism'. Please note he still hasn't answered Pawan's question. It surely takes guts. Everything is self-explanatory. Jai Hind. Jai Panun Kashmir. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: > > Inder, > > Well If I say JAI HIND whose slogan is that. We dont ask some > alien foreigner to say JAI HIND and expect to do so even(I hope there is no > ambiguity in this). > > Now the question is why don't you do the same thing(experience/feel > the response) in a mosque as you did it on a HINDU idol. Dont be dubious > about there is void INSIDE(you and the mosque as well). CONCENTRATE well > for a reply. > > > Dhatri. > > --- On Sun, 11/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement from Kashmir > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > well, dear pawan > how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, > it is beyond my comprehension. > > why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how > is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. > > how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu > gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say > Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening > against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved > int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any > past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this > question? > > well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our > intolerance towards the other is the core reason. > > we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join > mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. > > i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, > > and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a > petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers > to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. > > you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous > most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and > profoundity at the same time. > > lot of love > and regards > is > > p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside > the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from > all this > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > IInder, > > > > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand > Temple. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 11/1/08, inder salim wrote: > >> > >> dear Pawan, > >> > >> Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai > >> Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) > >> > >> Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a > deep > >> commitment. > >> And if the Brahman dies in the temple of idols, bury him the Kabba. > >> # > >> Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief ( Imaan ) here, > >> is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as > >> Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of > >> idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never > >> bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi > >> traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must > >> have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation > >> > >> well, if you can please convey the below mentioned couplet to Jai > >> Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it > >> is again > >> > >> BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN > >> FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) > >> > >> HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S > HOME, > >> IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA > >> > >> > >> without malice towards one and all > >> > >> is > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani > > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Shuddha, > >> > > >> > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a > citizen . > >> > > >> > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community > from > >> > raising > >> > their voices. > >> > > >> > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but > natural for > >> > us > >> > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then > only we > >> > can > >> > support others. > >> > > >> > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, > unlike > >> > some > >> > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support > their > >> > cause by trying to create an opinion. > >> > > >> > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri > pandits. We > >> > know > >> > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. > >> > > >> > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... > dont play > >> > around and instead take a walk. > >> > > >> > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. > >> > > >> > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not > hanged in > >> > the > >> > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not > rest. > >> > > >> > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already > suffered 10 > >> > migrations in 10 centuries......... > >> > > >> > > >> > Now ...no more........ > >> > > >> > > >> > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... > >> > > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear All, > >> >> > >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those > driven to > >> >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this > list by > >> >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, > those who are > >> >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics > and > >> >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >> >> > >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the > plight of the > >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree > with > >> >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the > displaced > >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in > conditions > >> >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced > Kashmir > >> >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I > support the > >> >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that > can be > >> >> taken to ensure that this can happen. > >> >> > >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices > in > >> >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the > movement for > >> >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >> >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse > to > >> >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of > their own > >> >> making. > >> >> > >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of > those > >> >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other > public fora, > >> >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun > Kashmir and > >> >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not > of the > >> >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public > space for > >> >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is > obstructive > >> >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >> >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed > to a > >> >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, > not less > >> >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir > valley. They > >> >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces > such as > >> >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of > so called > >> >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the > so called > >> >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail > Indians and > >> >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >> >> extractive and authoritarian state. > >> >> > >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested > interest in > >> >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority > of > >> >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long > as > >> >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a > permanent > >> >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun > Kashmir > >> >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political > mentors will > >> >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous > attempts by > >> >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they > represent > >> >> need to be seen in this light. > >> >> > >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of > displaced > >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to > lose sight > >> >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and > only one > >> >> of the many displaced communities in India. > >> >> > >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >> >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it > as have > >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there > should be > >> >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems > and > >> >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >> >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in > India by > >> >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri > Pandits > >> >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have > been > >> >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from > within > >> >> internally displaced communities on the question of > displacement. In > >> >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced > Kashmiri > >> >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations > such as > >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many > sensible > >> >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see > through > >> >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time > before these > >> >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the > displaced > >> >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >> >> stranglehold. > >> >> > >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir > and > >> >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and > other > >> >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit > exceptionalism' that > >> >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >> >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately > damaging to > >> >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have > thought > >> >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one > displaced > >> >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them > to the > >> >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >> >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations > such as > >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >> >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the > Shiv > >> >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the > Rashtriya > >> >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang > Dal, nor > >> >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as > Arun > >> >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have > commented > >> >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >> >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced > communities. > >> >> > >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, > the plight > >> >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >> >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri > Pandits > >> >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because > they > >> >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view > their > >> >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >> >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >> >> > >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >> >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits > who have > >> >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on > their > >> >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >> >> > >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property > left > >> >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: > Preservation, > >> >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a > stay on > >> >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced > Kashmiri > >> >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >> >> > >> >> to a series of > >> >> > >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, > education, ex- > >> >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central > as well > >> >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced > people > >> >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, > happen to > >> >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >> >> > >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in > 1997 > >> >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of > the > >> >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all > aspects > >> >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest > solutions. > >> >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner > (planning and > >> >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return > of > >> >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >> >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a > total > >> >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >> >> > >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been > announced from > >> >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime > Minister for > >> >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits > living in > >> >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on > occasion > >> >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' > (SRE) fund for > >> >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >> >> > >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief > to Kashmiri > >> >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - > 101, in > >> >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue > for Dignity > >> >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the > Observer > >> >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & > Co. in > >> >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, > 2005] > >> >> > >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are > adequate to > >> >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I > am > >> >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other > internally > >> >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent > on it, > >> >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on > its > >> >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced > Kashmiri > >> >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >> >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced > Kashmiri > >> >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought > to have > >> >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their > spokepersons > >> >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >> >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >> >> > >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of > other > >> >> internally displaced communities in India are like. > >> >> > >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts > available > >> >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring > Centre, an > >> >> international rights group that concerns itself with the > situation of > >> >> internally displaced communities the world over. > Specifically, I am > >> >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns > internal > >> >> displacement in India. > >> >> > >> >> see - > >> >> > >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It > highlights > >> >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without > biases > >> >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture > of > >> >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >> >> > >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >> >> > >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of > internally displaced > >> >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >> >> > >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government > figure) > >> >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian > side of the > >> >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return > despite > >> >> the ceasefire > >> >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between > Santhals and > >> >> Bodos during the 1990s > >> >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >> >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to > insurgency" > >> >> > >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers > of > >> >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to > the anti- > >> >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports > and > >> >> updates.) > >> >> > >> >> The site goes on to say - > >> >> > >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore > relatively easy to > >> >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The > number of > >> >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the > Karbi-Anglong > >> >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic > groups and > >> >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages > during > >> >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are > able to > >> >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >> >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no > assistance. In > >> >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin > are > >> >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during > the past > >> >> decade, but no information exists about the return or > continued > >> >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, > "Tripura"). In the > >> >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have > escaped the > >> >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by > crossing over > >> >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the > statistics. > >> >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as > for > >> >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to > leave in > >> >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local > insurgents. The > >> >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the > camp > >> >> population only and not those internally displaced who > largely live > >> >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other > slum > >> >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >> >> > >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of > displaced is > >> >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not > possible to > >> >> give a global estimate." > >> >> > >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS > >> >> > >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the > North-East are > >> >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced > across > >> >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health > care, > >> >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by > earlier > >> >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the > North- > >> >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public > buildings and > >> >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to > formal > >> >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, > acute > >> >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally > displaced in > >> >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, > p.136). The > >> >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to > the > >> >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the > central > >> >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by > local > >> >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received > no relief > >> >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses > seven > >> >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May > 2005). In > >> >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the > region are > >> >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other > places > >> >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >> >> > >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for > internally > >> >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have > documented > >> >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >> >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are > reports > >> >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed > atrocities > >> >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, > 67; > >> >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces > acute > >> >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during > the riots. > >> >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, > with > >> >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The > relief > >> >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, > sanitary > >> >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 > January > >> >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, > 7.6.c; > >> >> IIJ, December 2003). " > >> >> > >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >> >> > >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed > reservations in > >> >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on > Internal > >> >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national > sovereignty. > >> >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced > IDPs, and > >> >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is > frequently > >> >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it > is well > >> >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police > forces have > >> >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, > there have > >> >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or > prosecutions of > >> >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >> >> > >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT > IDP > >> >> POPULATIONS > >> >> > >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to > conflict-affected > >> >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not > correspond > >> >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned > the > >> >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, > but > >> >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, > January 2005, > >> >> p.68). > >> >> > >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory > treatment of > >> >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit > population > >> >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >> >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >> >> > >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere > to the UN > >> >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other > international > >> >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in > Kashmir and > >> >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, > September 2003). > >> >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in > India > >> >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do > not > >> >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >> >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that > more > >> >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that > return will > >> >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the > government to > >> >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). > In > >> >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities > as well > >> >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of > the > >> >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government > with > >> >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July > 2003). > >> >> > >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >> >> > >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million > people are > >> >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. > Although > >> >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >> >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >> >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as > Scheduled > >> >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research > indicate > >> >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not > receive > >> >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million > people." > >> >> > >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of > displaced > >> >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >> >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account > we > >> >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might > be > >> >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the > disproportionate amount > >> >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall > situation > >> >> of internal displacement in India. > >> >> > >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >> >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra > Kaul in one > >> >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need > to pay > >> >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But > even > >> >> from that point of view, the situation of > >> >> > >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 > % of the > >> >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by > 1981 and 0.1 % > >> >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the > decrease of 4.9 > >> >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to > the > >> >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that > Pandits > >> >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >> >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri > Pandit > >> >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >> >> > >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in > the part of > >> >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was > very much > >> >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, > as well > >> >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the > Kashmiri > >> >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >> >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >> >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much > as it > >> >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members > of the > >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and > elsewhere. > >> >> > >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we > are all > >> >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually > vibrant > >> >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced > from their > >> >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition > requires > >> >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why > they were > >> >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between > 1947 and > >> >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way > in which > >> >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of > the > >> >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have > been > >> >> different. ' > >> >> > >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in > Kashmir (no > >> >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single > moment > >> >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the > cultural > >> >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had > my with > >> >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they > yearn for > >> >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir > feels > >> >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of > displaced and > >> >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of > Panun > >> >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is > going on in > >> >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there > needs to > >> >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir > has > >> >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the > cultural, > >> >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section > of the > >> >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much > earlier. > >> >> > >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the > discussion > >> >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced > Kashmiri > >> >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, > and I > >> >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain > and > >> >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may > cease on > >> >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much > worse off > >> >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an > argument > >> >> against oppression. > >> >> > >> >> regards, > >> >> > >> >> Shuddha > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From samhoodx at aol.com Sun Nov 2 22:59:21 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (samhoodx at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:29:21 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir Message-ID: <8CB0B27AD10C878-790-322@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> dhatri, i think you missed it if you mean pawan's question about nudity. inder did answer it. please see below. sam 2008/11/2 Aditya Raj Kaul : > Dear Dhatri, > > It takes great pride and clear conscience to say 'Jai Hind'. People like > Inder Salim will only say, 'Jai Yasin Malik', 'Jai Communalism' and 'Jai > Islamic Terrorism'. > > Please note he still hasn't answered Pawan's question. It surely takes > guts. Everything is self-explanatory. > > Jai Hind. Jai Panun Kashmir. > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: >> >> Inder, >> >> Well If I say JAI HIND whose slogan is that. We dont ask some ... >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 23:03:41 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:03:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai Maharashtra, and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with the slogan which is Raj's, are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, you know, there is lot of humour in it. so, let us laugh, without malice towards one and all love is > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> making. >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> need to be seen in this light. >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> stranglehold. >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> to a series of >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> displacement in India. >> >> see - >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> the ceasefire >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> Bodos during the 1990s >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> updates.) >> >> The site goes on to say - >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> give a global estimate." >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> POPULATIONS >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> p.68). >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> of internal displacement in India. >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> from that point of view, the situation of >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> different. ' >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> against oppression. >> >> regards, >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 23:14:49 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:14:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811020944s3bf31603n4b18ba7517a61bc7@mail.gmail.com> let somebody tell me please what the difference between LoC and Boarder? i prefer LoC in J&K instead of Boarder, this way atleast one can see the hypocritical state of mind inside a STATE. which one can also see in numerous other forms that often affect us, but we ignore. forget about the solution to Kashmir problem, i am not insisting that, but we need to speak a language which even highest offices of both the countries use, what is the fault? perhaps, we need to know the difference between a buffalo and a deer, why is a burden for most of indians and pakistanis to use it differently, when the state machinery uses is comfortably as and when they meet. why we, here on the list, can speak about the kashmir conflict without getting personal. why? love is On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > well said > > On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: >> Aarti, >> >> Needless to say your comments are just ridiculous. At the time of PAKISTAN >> creation under 2 nation theory It was under legal accession of >> INDIA(BRITISH). It was the INDIA(on its own) gave life to PAKISTAN 2nd >> time after 1971 war. You should awake from your unconcious, absentive >> state of mind. Hence you start demaning for POK and rest of the occupied >> terrotories return. Probably at some day it may possible as it was not >> possible before. >> >> Dhatri. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >> From: Aarti Sethi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com >> Cc: aman.am at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:37 PM >> >> >> As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense when >> there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never occurred, >> because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you would >> need to re-think your position. >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: >> >> >> If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the >> word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like >> boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody >> including UN should insist for the territorial return. >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: >> >> From: Aman Sethi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated >> plebiscite as well. >> a. >> >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >>> Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By >> Indo-Asian >>> News Service >> on >>> Friday, October 31, 2008 >>> >>> Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations >>> High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that >>> the community, which fled the Kashmir >>> Valleyduring the peak of >>> militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally >>> displaced persons (IDPs). >>> >>> The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital >>> like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir >>> Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the >> community >>> in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose >>> of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is >> on >>> a two-day visit to India. >>> >>> "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community >> we, >>> therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community >>> as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the >>> 100-odd protestors, told IANS. >>> >>> "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had >> recognised >>> Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of >> the >>> insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community >> - should >>> be removed from all records and communications relating to us >> henceforth," >>> Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. >>> >>> Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus >>> have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when >>> more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape >>> persecution... >>> >>> "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but >> now we >>> are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political >>> representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our >> own!" >>> fumed Raj Raina, 37. >>> >>> Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' >> status. He >>> is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. >>> >>> "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, >>> militantsthreatened us time >> and >>> again - merge with us (with political and religious >>> views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the >> insurgency. >>> >>> Amongst those present from the community were varsity >>> students, >>> who also held that the current situation was sordid. >>> >>> "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when >> we >>> were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old >> student >>> activist from Delhi University. >>> >>> "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian >> government >>> to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population >>> living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and >>> economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class >>> citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. >>> >>> Link - >>> >> http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From lawrence at altlawforum.org Sun Nov 2 23:17:35 2008 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:17:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Suggestion In-Reply-To: <61cdd2df0811011119n68b0fdadx6127a93968efc12e@mail.gmail.com> References: <61cdd2df0811011119n68b0fdadx6127a93968efc12e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeebesh To use a cliche, i think this is an idea whose time has come, and Danish, I think a certain intellectualism would be a welcome break from the evil of banality that we are otherwise subject to :) Lawrence 2008/11/1 Danish Husain > Dear Jeebesh: > > I've been actively (read passive reader) on the reader list for a month and > non-actively you know since when. And I have been many times dragged in the > debate of the democratic spirit we have on the list (offline and again > passively) but even after the frustation many feel about few hogging the > list, I feel the great triumph of the list is the freedom of speech we have > here even if it degenerates many times. (Gosh, what an awfully long > sentence). I support your idea but with a caveat that we might perpetrate a > certain intellectualism. Thus we may have an article like that but the > participation again should be voluntary. And if the debate on this so > called > article is a drag on few people's inbox then be it. When we can suffer > trash > then why not a good debate. > > Let me pull out something from my little closet. Anyway, it's been a whole > bag of emotions and I am enjoying my sojourn here so for. :-) > > Cheers > > D > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > > > dear All, > > > > There are many different sensibility that populate this list. > > > > Why don't we make that as a base for a rigorous re-thinking of the > > contemporary life. > > > > My suggestion: > > > > Some intriguing and difficult texts could be suggested by list members > > and we all read and run a commentary on it. Maybe a text could run for > > 14 days and then another text could be brought in. This way we could > > make this list a lively thinking place. > > > > In schools/colleges we are all taught "debating" (bhahes) but rarely > > taught to "engage in dialogue" (samvad). So lets try out a few > > experiments to outdo our socialisations! > > > > warmly > > Jeebesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 00:03:40 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:33:40 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Smash Palace Message-ID: My op-ed on the Baul statues came out in today's newspaper. Shuddha, Jeebesh, Rahnuma Ahmed & Annu Jalais gave helpful feedback on draft. Smash Palace http://thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=61521 A cycle of outrage over baul statues has created many surprising and dissonant coalitions: youngbloods (Charu Kala protests), musicians (bauls and fusion bands), signifiers (wear a gamcha in support), and shushil (umbrellas at National Museum). And diverse editorial tactics: cowardly capitulation (Afsan Chowdhury, New Age, 20/10/08), stop it before it's too late (Kamal Lohani, Janakantha, 21/10/08), king's men (Hana Shams, Daily Star, 21/10/08), core heritage (Inam Ahmed, Prothom Alo, 28/10/08), middle ages (Audity Falguny, Shamokal, 29/10/08), Islam's tolerance tradition (Humayun Ahmed, Prothom Alo, 27/10/08). Humayun Ahmed is worth studying, because the novelist presumes exhaustive theology research is needed to settle the issue. Invoke Byzantine painting of Mother Mary spared by the Prophet, Sheikh Sadi's mazaar statue, paintings of animals preserved by Hazrat Omar, and IOJ will retreat to their barracks. It is what Jeebesh Bagchi described in the context of debates about Kashmiri Pandits as "the mistaken belief that if you just keep piling up enough facts, the other side will be stunned into silence." Theological debates, important as they are, will not be sufficient to navigate a political conflict. A few writers move to a quiet space and outline other elephants in the room. Badruddin Umar (Shamokal, 28/10/08) asks why elder intellectuals focus on a pawn and avoid naming state machinery. Rahnuma Ahmed (New Age, 29/10/08) highlights how political forces have been targeted for twenty months, with the exception of Jamaat e Islami and allied "Islamist" forces. Finally, Faruq Wasif (Prothom Alo, 29/10/08) talks about the convenient timing, providing maximum distraction from the spider web of election 08. Return for a moment to Audity Falguny's rhetoric of "middle ages"-- it gets the outrage adrenalin pumping, but gets lost in the distraction maze. Study closely Amini's press conference after the statues were removed. Threatening destruction of "Awami League era" statues and railing against Cantonment "Shikha Onirbaan", he plays the role of charlatan. Even his use of the vernacular "Heida ami dekhi nai" (about BNP-era statues) seems designed to tickle perceptions. A man who talks like the Dhakaiya of jokes ("Korta aitasen na jaitasen?"), how can he be a serious threat, right? How easy to ridicule, and forget the real beneficiaries and puppet-masters. In 2003, similar protests were the excuse for a willing government to ban Ahmadiyya Muslim books. While filming that confrontation for my project "Muslims or Heretics: My Camera Can Lie", I had a moment of camera schizoprenia. In the rough cut of that film, there was grainy, blurred footage of Khatme Nabuwat rallies, filmed from distant rooftops. The impression was (on-screen and in my head) of ravenous mobs that could only be filmed from a safe distance. Outside the cage, as it were. Returning to the project after a six-month gap, I started directly filming rallies and found a jarring reality. "Shangbadik bhaya ashche" they would shout, and part ways so I got the best vantage point for my video. During one "Death to..." speech, I found my crowd shots obstructed by ten press photographers, all gunning for the best angle of angry faces before their filing deadlines. A BBC cameraman reached up on stage and moved the microphone away from the mufti's face, to get an unobstructed shot. No one blinked at this intervention by a representative of the "imperialists" being masticated on stage. The "fiery Islamist rally" is now a form of performance art, it needs that BBC camera as oxygen. The audience is inside and outside borders, and the international eye is often more critical-- without getting on an "Enemies List", this politics cannot survive. What we have is a two steps forward one step back, catch-and-release "Islamist" project. These periodic fracases push the political debate away from our real crisis of hyper-capitalist over-development twinned with basic needs under-development. We move instead to a space of polarized battles between the yin and yang of "Islam in danger" and "The Islamists are coming". Every few months, a new bogey: Madrasa students, Khatme Nabuwwat, Hizbut Tahrir, Islami Oikko Jote, Jagrata Muslim Janata. Somewhere in an overseas think tank, yet another "Next Afghanistan" report. All this can lead to the highly artificial "consensus" opinion, inside government and among international players, that some Islamist representative must be brought to the national negotiating table. What a convenient setup: specter of "radical Islamists" drives a fear-debate, and then the largest Islamist party steps forward as "moderate Islamic" voice. Give us enough seats, and we will control the Amini's. December 2008 approaches with the denouement of "level playing field" electoral math. Cartoons, statues, women's bill, everything can feed into that equation. The myth of the "Islamist bloc" or "religious sentiment" was used by state apparatus in 1977 and 1982 to bleed secularism's body parts. 2008 is trying for a replay of that tired script. Perception brutalizes reality, and the dominant trope the state pushes is of "Islamists" as ferocious warriors who can bring any government to a standstill. Or that "militant Islamic" groups are about to take over this country. This allows governments to maintain power and security agencies to expand surveillance into every sector of citizen life (Dhanmondi barbed wire barricades and body checks of young men at 11 pm). But where does the perception of a powerful "Islamic bloc" come from? In history, the groups that actually posed strongest street-based challenge to state power were Awami League in 1968-70, JSD and Sarbahara Party in 1973-74, and University student led bipartisan moha-jote of 1988-90. Jeebesh Bagchi proposes a hard reboot: "In most cases the terms these days are being set by people with extreme performative position and acts. In India now, Modi has set the term around two axis - "State terror as security" and "Development without Dissent." Now how do you work through these axes? We need to think hard as to how to bypass or steal away these conceptual frameworks." We write and film and photograph and protest not to stop an "Islamist threat", but to take control of the terms of the debate.To bring the focus back to real political issues: the asphyxiated democracy project, an end to security panic, and to the brutal daily absence of roti-kapra-makan. naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com works on art & technology projects. Background: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/19/baul-statue-protests/ http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/28/lalon-terror/ From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 03:56:55 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:26:55 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacementfrom Kashmir References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005900E143114310AA0023B5DE9FE815@tara> O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they don't have the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to parliament, Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new forces to appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get messier as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP and Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in India is reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As it gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for military intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then let us observe the political engineering. Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "inder salim" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacementfrom Kashmir > > >> >> Pawan >> >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai > Maharashtra, > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with > the slogan which is Raj's, > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. > > so, let us laugh, > > without malice towards one and all > > love > is > >> >> >> >> >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >>> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >>> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >>> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >>> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >>> >>> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >>> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >>> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >>> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >>> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >>> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >>> taken to ensure that this can happen. >>> >>> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >>> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >>> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >>> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >>> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >>> making. >>> >>> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >>> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >>> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >>> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >>> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >>> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >>> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >>> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >>> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >>> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >>> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >>> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >>> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >>> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >>> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >>> extractive and authoritarian state. >>> >>> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >>> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >>> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >>> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >>> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >>> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >>> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >>> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >>> need to be seen in this light. >>> >>> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >>> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >>> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >>> of the many displaced communities in India. >>> >>> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >>> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >>> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >>> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >>> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >>> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >>> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >>> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >>> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >>> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >>> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >>> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >>> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >>> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >>> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >>> stranglehold. >>> >>> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >>> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >>> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >>> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >>> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >>> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >>> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >>> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >>> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >>> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >>> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >>> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >>> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >>> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >>> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >>> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >>> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >>> >>> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >>> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >>> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >>> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >>> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >>> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >>> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >>> >>> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >>> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >>> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >>> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >>> >>> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >>> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >>> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >>> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >>> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >>> >>> to a series of >>> >>> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >>> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >>> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >>> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >>> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >>> >>> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >>> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >>> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >>> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >>> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >>> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >>> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >>> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >>> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >>> >>> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >>> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >>> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >>> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >>> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >>> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >>> >>> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >>> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >>> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >>> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >>> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >>> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >>> >>> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >>> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >>> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >>> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >>> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >>> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >>> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >>> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >>> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >>> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >>> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >>> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >>> >>> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >>> internally displaced communities in India are like. >>> >>> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >>> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >>> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >>> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >>> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >>> displacement in India. >>> >>> see - >>> >>> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >>> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >>> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >>> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >>> >>> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >>> >>> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >>> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >>> >>> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >>> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >>> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >>> the ceasefire >>> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >>> Bodos during the 1990s >>> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >>> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >>> >>> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >>> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >>> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >>> updates.) >>> >>> The site goes on to say - >>> >>> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >>> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >>> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >>> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >>> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >>> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >>> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >>> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >>> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >>> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >>> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >>> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >>> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >>> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >>> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >>> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >>> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >>> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >>> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >>> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >>> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >>> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >>> >>> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >>> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >>> give a global estimate." >>> >>> ON RELIEF CAMPS >>> >>> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >>> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >>> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >>> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >>> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >>> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >>> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >>> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >>> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >>> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >>> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >>> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >>> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >>> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >>> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >>> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >>> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >>> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >>> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >>> >>> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >>> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >>> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >>> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >>> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >>> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >>> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >>> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >>> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >>> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >>> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >>> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >>> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >>> IIJ, December 2003). " >>> >>> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >>> >>> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >>> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >>> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >>> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >>> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >>> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >>> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >>> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >>> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >>> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >>> >>> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >>> POPULATIONS >>> >>> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >>> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >>> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >>> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >>> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >>> p.68). >>> >>> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >>> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >>> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >>> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >>> >>> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >>> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >>> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >>> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >>> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >>> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >>> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >>> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >>> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >>> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >>> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >>> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >>> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >>> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >>> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >>> >>> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >>> >>> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >>> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >>> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >>> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >>> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >>> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >>> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >>> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >>> >>> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >>> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >>> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >>> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >>> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >>> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >>> of internal displacement in India. >>> >>> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >>> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >>> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >>> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >>> from that point of view, the situation of >>> >>> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >>> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >>> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >>> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >>> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >>> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >>> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >>> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >>> >>> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >>> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >>> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >>> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >>> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >>> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >>> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >>> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >>> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >>> >>> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >>> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >>> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >>> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >>> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >>> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >>> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >>> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >>> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >>> different. ' >>> >>> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >>> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >>> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >>> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >>> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >>> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >>> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >>> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >>> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >>> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >>> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >>> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >>> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >>> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >>> >>> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >>> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >>> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >>> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >>> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >>> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >>> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >>> against oppression. >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aman.am at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:09:21 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 02:39:21 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920811022339o7563e0a3gf99245bfe46fb931@mail.gmail.com> I;m just interested in learning about when your script runs out ... is RIK like a call centre that has a set of broad answers that are useful for answers any and all questions? or is it like a dynamic system that churns out the same answers in different formats? are you all one person with different aliases? and as for the UN; why would u appeal to the UN? arent you guys all about the glory of the indian state? or there is no group of guys? you just happen to be a group of autonomously annoying people who decided to show up on this list and systematically throttle any conversation that didnt correspond to the script you had been fed in your initiation sessions? It saddens me to see puppets strung about in this manner .. remember that the hands that tug the strings are prone to sudden changes of heart ... a. On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > well said > > On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: >> Aarti, >> >> Needless to say your comments are just ridiculous. At the time of PAKISTAN >> creation under 2 nation theory It was under legal accession of >> INDIA(BRITISH). It was the INDIA(on its own) gave life to PAKISTAN 2nd >> time after 1971 war. You should awake from your unconcious, absentive >> state of mind. Hence you start demaning for POK and rest of the occupied >> terrotories return. Probably at some day it may possible as it was not >> possible before. >> >> Dhatri. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >> From: Aarti Sethi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com >> Cc: aman.am at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:37 PM >> >> >> As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense when >> there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never occurred, >> because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you would >> need to re-think your position. >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: >> >> >> If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the >> word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like >> boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody >> including UN should insist for the territorial return. >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: >> >> From: Aman Sethi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated >> plebiscite as well. >> a. >> >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >>> Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By >> Indo-Asian >>> News Service >> on >>> Friday, October 31, 2008 >>> >>> Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations >>> High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that >>> the community, which fled the Kashmir >>> Valleyduring the peak of >>> militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally >>> displaced persons (IDPs). >>> >>> The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital >>> like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir >>> Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the >> community >>> in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose >>> of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is >> on >>> a two-day visit to India. >>> >>> "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community >> we, >>> therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community >>> as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the >>> 100-odd protestors, told IANS. >>> >>> "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had >> recognised >>> Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of >> the >>> insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community >> - should >>> be removed from all records and communications relating to us >> henceforth," >>> Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. >>> >>> Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus >>> have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when >>> more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape >>> persecution... >>> >>> "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but >> now we >>> are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political >>> representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our >> own!" >>> fumed Raj Raina, 37. >>> >>> Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' >> status. He >>> is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. >>> >>> "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, >>> militantsthreatened us time >> and >>> again - merge with us (with political and religious >>> views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the >> insurgency. >>> >>> Amongst those present from the community were varsity >>> students, >>> who also held that the current situation was sordid. >>> >>> "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when >> we >>> were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old >> student >>> activist from Delhi University. >>> >>> "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian >> government >>> to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population >>> living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and >>> economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class >>> citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. >>> >>> Link - >>> >> http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:33:03 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:33:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <995a19920811022339o7563e0a3gf99245bfe46fb931@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> <995a19920811022339o7563e0a3gf99245bfe46fb931@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811030003m37117090hec62df3a2f7a2393@mail.gmail.com> Hi Aman, At least we are not puppets of Chinese ideology. You know what I mean. Pawan On 11/3/08, Aman Sethi wrote: > > I;m just interested in learning about when your script runs out ... is > RIK like a call centre that has a set of broad answers that are useful > for answers any and all questions? or is it like a dynamic system that > churns out the same answers in different formats? > are you all one person with different aliases? > > and as for the UN; why would u appeal to the UN? arent you guys all > about the glory of the indian state? or there is no group of guys? you > just happen to be a group of autonomously annoying people who decided > to show up on this list and systematically throttle any conversation > that didnt correspond to the script you had been fed in your > initiation sessions? > > It saddens me to see puppets strung about in this manner .. remember > that the hands that tug the strings are prone to sudden changes of > heart ... > > a. > > > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > well said > > > > On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: > >> Aarti, > >> > >> Needless to say your comments are just ridiculous. At the time of > PAKISTAN > >> creation under 2 nation theory It was under legal accession of > >> INDIA(BRITISH). It was the INDIA(on its own) gave life to PAKISTAN 2nd > >> time after 1971 war. You should awake from your unconcious, absentive > >> state of mind. Hence you start demaning for POK and rest of the > occupied > >> terrotories return. Probably at some day it may possible as it was not > >> possible before. > >> > >> Dhatri. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> > >> From: Aarti Sethi > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> persons' status > >> To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com > >> Cc: aman.am at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:37 PM > >> > >> > >> As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense > when > >> there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never > occurred, > >> because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you > would > >> need to re-think your position. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: > >> > >> > >> If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote the > >> word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and like > >> boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody > >> including UN should insist for the territorial return. > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: > >> > >> From: Aman Sethi > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> persons' status > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated > >> plebiscite as well. > >> a. > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>> Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By > >> Indo-Asian > >>> News Service > >> on > >>> Friday, October 31, 2008 > >>> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United > Nations > >>> High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding > that > >>> the community, which fled the Kashmir > >>> Valleyduring the peak of > >>> militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > >>> displaced persons (IDPs). > >>> > >>> The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the > capital > >>> like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India > Kashmir > >>> Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the > >> community > >>> in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona > Bose > >>> of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who > is > >> on > >>> a two-day visit to India. > >>> > >>> "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community > >> we, > >>> therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu > community > >>> as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > >>> 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > >>> > >>> "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had > >> recognised > >>> Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of > >> the > >>> insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community > >> - should > >>> be removed from all records and communications relating to us > >> henceforth," > >>> Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > >>> > >>> Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri > Hindus > >>> have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, > when > >>> more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape > >>> persecution... > >>> > >>> "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but > >> now we > >>> are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > >>> representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our > >> own!" > >>> fumed Raj Raina, 37. > >>> > >>> Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' > >> status. He > >>> is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > >>> > >>> "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > >>> militantsthreatened us time > >> and > >>> again - merge with us (with political and religious > >>> views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the > >> insurgency. > >>> > >>> Amongst those present from the community were varsity > >>> students, > >>> who also held that the current situation was sordid. > >>> > >>> "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when > >> we > >>> were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old > >> student > >>> activist from Delhi University. > >>> > >>> "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian > >> government > >>> to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > >>> living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political > and > >>> economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > >>> citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > >>> > >>> Link - > >>> > >> > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >> in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:42:34 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:42:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=91interna?= =?windows-1252?q?lly_displaced_persons=92_status?= In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811030003m37117090hec62df3a2f7a2393@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0811020607k663097e2uc0809c700ddbc6a@mail.gmail.com> <402956.59396.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811020730s1a3f7978i8cda64c9921740dd@mail.gmail.com> <995a19920811022339o7563e0a3gf99245bfe46fb931@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811030003m37117090hec62df3a2f7a2393@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811030012m5b2525bfyb5f09cf9826215c9@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, It has become so usual now to see these puppets speak their masters tone. They can't digest the broad based work that RIK undertakes at a global level. Their thinking is confined to the four walls. State bashers group. Unfortunate state indeed. I feel sorry for them. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Hi Aman, > > At least we are not puppets of Chinese ideology. You know what I mean. > > > Pawan > > > > On 11/3/08, Aman Sethi wrote: > > > > I;m just interested in learning about when your script runs out ... is > > RIK like a call centre that has a set of broad answers that are useful > > for answers any and all questions? or is it like a dynamic system that > > churns out the same answers in different formats? > > are you all one person with different aliases? > > > > and as for the UN; why would u appeal to the UN? arent you guys all > > about the glory of the indian state? or there is no group of guys? you > > just happen to be a group of autonomously annoying people who decided > > to show up on this list and systematically throttle any conversation > > that didnt correspond to the script you had been fed in your > > initiation sessions? > > > > It saddens me to see puppets strung about in this manner .. remember > > that the hands that tug the strings are prone to sudden changes of > > heart ... > > > > a. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > well said > > > > > > On 11/2/08, we wi wrote: > > >> Aarti, > > >> > > >> Needless to say your comments are just ridiculous. At the time of > > PAKISTAN > > >> creation under 2 nation theory It was under legal accession of > > >> INDIA(BRITISH). It was the INDIA(on its own) gave life to > PAKISTAN 2nd > > >> time after 1971 war. You should awake from your unconcious, absentive > > >> state of mind. Hence you start demaning for POK and rest of the > > occupied > > >> terrotories return. Probably at some day it may possible as it was > not > > >> possible before. > > >> > > >> Dhatri. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > >> > > >> From: Aarti Sethi > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally > displaced > > >> persons' status > > >> To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com > > >> Cc: aman.am at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net > > >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:37 PM > > >> > > >> > > >> As usual Dhatri you miss the point. The territorial return makes sense > > when > > >> there was a legal accession in the first place. Since this never > > occurred, > > >> because the plebiscite India committed itself to never happened, you > > would > > >> need to re-think your position. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:26 PM, we wi wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> If INDIA possess other provinces like PAKISTAN any body should quote > the > > >> word plebiscite. Instead the reverse is true for INDIA as POK and > like > > >> boarder areas in occupation from PAKISTAN AND CHINA, you and everybody > > >> including UN should insist for the territorial return. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: > > >> > > >> From: Aman Sethi > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally > displaced > > >> persons' status > > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated > > >> plebiscite as well. > > >> a. > > >> > > >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By > > >> Indo-Asian > > >>> News Service > > >> on > > >>> Friday, October 31, 2008 > > >>> > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United > > Nations > > >>> High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding > > that > > >>> the community, which fled the Kashmir > > >>> Valleyduring the peak of > > >>> militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > > >>> displaced persons (IDPs). > > >>> > > >>> The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the > > capital > > >>> like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India > > Kashmir > > >>> Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the > > >> community > > >>> in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona > > Bose > > >>> of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who > > is > > >> on > > >>> a two-day visit to India. > > >>> > > >>> "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community > > >> we, > > >>> therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu > > community > > >>> as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > > >>> 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > >>> > > >>> "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had > > >> recognised > > >>> Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of > > >> the > > >>> insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community > > >> - should > > >>> be removed from all records and communications relating to us > > >> henceforth," > > >>> Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > >>> > > >>> Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri > > Hindus > > >>> have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, > > when > > >>> more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape > > >>> persecution... > > >>> > > >>> "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but > > >> now we > > >>> are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > > >>> representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our > > >> own!" > > >>> fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > >>> > > >>> Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' > > >> status. He > > >>> is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > >>> > > >>> "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > > >>> militantsthreatened us time > > >> and > > >>> again - merge with us (with political and religious > > >>> views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the > > >> insurgency. > > >>> > > >>> Amongst those present from the community were varsity > > >>> students, > > >>> who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > >>> > > >>> "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when > > >> we > > >>> were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old > > >> student > > >>> activist from Delhi University. > > >>> > > >>> "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian > > >> government > > >>> to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu > population > > >>> living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political > > and > > >>> economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > > >>> citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > >>> > > >>> Link - > > >>> > > >> > > > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > >> in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > >> in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > >> in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:46:55 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:46:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811030016o5e848975sbfecc6f2a476a632@mail.gmail.com> Inder, I would always be respectful ro my place of Karam Bhoomi. I am unlike your friends in Kashmir who should have been rather indebted to Indian Govt. If you have a problem with me saying Jai maharshtra , you are disrespectful to the pride of Maharshtra , the place which has given us lot of visionaries and freedom fighters. The great land of Shivaji . I do not end with only Jai Mahrashtra , i end with jai Hind as well. If a place like Maharshtra has accomodated me , this land is pious to me. Whats your problem in that ? Jai Maharshtra doesnt mean hate for others and does not necesdsarily mean support to Raj Thackrey Ji ot MNS. Regards Pawan Durani Jai Maharashtra , Jai Panun Kashmir , Jai Hind On 11/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai > Maharashtra, > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with > the slogan which is Raj's, > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. > > so, let us laugh, > > without malice towards one and all > > love > is > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >> > >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > >> taken to ensure that this can happen. > >> > >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > >> making. > >> > >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >> extractive and authoritarian state. > >> > >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > >> need to be seen in this light. > >> > >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > >> of the many displaced communities in India. > >> > >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >> stranglehold. > >> > >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > >> > >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >> > >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >> > >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >> > >> to a series of > >> > >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >> > >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >> > >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >> > >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > >> > >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >> > >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > >> internally displaced communities in India are like. > >> > >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > >> displacement in India. > >> > >> see - > >> > >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >> > >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >> > >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >> > >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > >> the ceasefire > >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > >> Bodos during the 1990s > >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > >> > >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > >> updates.) > >> > >> The site goes on to say - > >> > >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >> > >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > >> give a global estimate." > >> > >> ON RELIEF CAMPS > >> > >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >> > >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > >> IIJ, December 2003). " > >> > >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >> > >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >> > >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > >> POPULATIONS > >> > >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > >> p.68). > >> > >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >> > >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > >> > >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >> > >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > >> > >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > >> of internal displacement in India. > >> > >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > >> from that point of view, the situation of > >> > >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >> > >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > >> > >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > >> different. ' > >> > >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > >> > >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > >> against oppression. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:48:07 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:48:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacementfrom Kashmir In-Reply-To: <005900E143114310AA0023B5DE9FE815@tara> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> <005900E143114310AA0023B5DE9FE815@tara> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811030018i37b134f7h56129458b83b8b70@mail.gmail.com> hello Tara , The only party not communal is the party with leftist badge..... Bright star Pawan On 11/3/08, taraprakash wrote: > > O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they don't > have > the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to parliament, > Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new forces to > appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get messier > as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP and > Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in India > is > reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As it > gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for military > intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then let > us > observe the political engineering. > > Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "inder salim" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacementfrom Kashmir > > > > > > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or > > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ > > > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai > > Maharashtra, > > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to > > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, > > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with > > the slogan which is Raj's, > > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? > > > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, > > > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there > > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, > > > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are > > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. > > > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, > > > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai > > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. > > > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because > > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, > > > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. > > > > so, let us laugh, > > > > without malice towards one and all > > > > love > > is > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > >>> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > >>> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > >>> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > >>> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >>> > >>> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > >>> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > >>> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > >>> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > >>> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > >>> taken to ensure that this can happen. > >>> > >>> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > >>> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > >>> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >>> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > >>> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > >>> making. > >>> > >>> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > >>> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > >>> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > >>> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > >>> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > >>> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > >>> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >>> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > >>> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > >>> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > >>> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > >>> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > >>> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > >>> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > >>> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >>> extractive and authoritarian state. > >>> > >>> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > >>> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > >>> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > >>> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > >>> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > >>> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > >>> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > >>> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > >>> need to be seen in this light. > >>> > >>> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > >>> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > >>> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > >>> of the many displaced communities in India. > >>> > >>> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >>> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > >>> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > >>> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >>> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > >>> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > >>> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > >>> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > >>> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > >>> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > >>> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > >>> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > >>> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > >>> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > >>> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >>> stranglehold. > >>> > >>> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > >>> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > >>> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > >>> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >>> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > >>> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > >>> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > >>> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > >>> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >>> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >>> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > >>> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > >>> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > >>> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > >>> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > >>> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >>> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > >>> > >>> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > >>> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >>> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > >>> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > >>> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > >>> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >>> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >>> > >>> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >>> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > >>> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > >>> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >>> > >>> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > >>> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > >>> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > >>> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > >>> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >>> > >>> to a series of > >>> > >>> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > >>> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > >>> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > >>> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > >>> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >>> > >>> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > >>> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > >>> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > >>> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > >>> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > >>> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > >>> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >>> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > >>> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >>> > >>> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > >>> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > >>> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > >>> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > >>> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > >>> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >>> > >>> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > >>> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > >>> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > >>> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > >>> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > >>> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > >>> > >>> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > >>> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > >>> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > >>> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > >>> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > >>> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > >>> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >>> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > >>> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > >>> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > >>> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >>> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >>> > >>> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > >>> internally displaced communities in India are like. > >>> > >>> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > >>> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > >>> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > >>> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > >>> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > >>> displacement in India. > >>> > >>> see - > >>> > >>> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > >>> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > >>> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > >>> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >>> > >>> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >>> > >>> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > >>> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >>> > >>> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > >>> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > >>> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > >>> the ceasefire > >>> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > >>> Bodos during the 1990s > >>> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >>> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > >>> > >>> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > >>> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > >>> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > >>> updates.) > >>> > >>> The site goes on to say - > >>> > >>> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > >>> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > >>> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > >>> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > >>> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > >>> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > >>> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >>> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > >>> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > >>> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > >>> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > >>> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > >>> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > >>> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > >>> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > >>> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > >>> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > >>> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > >>> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > >>> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > >>> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > >>> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >>> > >>> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > >>> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > >>> give a global estimate." > >>> > >>> ON RELIEF CAMPS > >>> > >>> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > >>> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > >>> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > >>> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > >>> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > >>> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > >>> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > >>> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > >>> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > >>> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > >>> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > >>> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > >>> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > >>> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > >>> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > >>> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > >>> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > >>> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > >>> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >>> > >>> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > >>> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > >>> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >>> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > >>> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > >>> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > >>> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > >>> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > >>> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > >>> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > >>> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > >>> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > >>> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > >>> IIJ, December 2003). " > >>> > >>> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >>> > >>> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > >>> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > >>> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > >>> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > >>> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > >>> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > >>> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > >>> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > >>> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > >>> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >>> > >>> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > >>> POPULATIONS > >>> > >>> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > >>> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > >>> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > >>> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > >>> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > >>> p.68). > >>> > >>> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > >>> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > >>> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >>> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >>> > >>> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > >>> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > >>> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > >>> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > >>> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > >>> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > >>> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >>> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > >>> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > >>> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > >>> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > >>> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > >>> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > >>> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > >>> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > >>> > >>> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >>> > >>> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > >>> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > >>> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >>> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >>> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > >>> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > >>> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > >>> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > >>> > >>> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > >>> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >>> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > >>> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > >>> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > >>> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > >>> of internal displacement in India. > >>> > >>> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >>> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > >>> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > >>> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > >>> from that point of view, the situation of > >>> > >>> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > >>> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > >>> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > >>> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > >>> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > >>> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >>> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > >>> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >>> > >>> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > >>> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > >>> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > >>> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > >>> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >>> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >>> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > >>> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > >>> > >>> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > >>> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > >>> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > >>> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > >>> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > >>> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > >>> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > >>> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > >>> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > >>> different. ' > >>> > >>> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > >>> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > >>> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > >>> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > >>> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > >>> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > >>> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > >>> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > >>> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > >>> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > >>> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > >>> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > >>> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > >>> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > >>> > >>> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > >>> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > >>> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > >>> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > >>> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > >>> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > >>> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > >>> against oppression. > >>> > >>> regards, > >>> > >>> Shuddha > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:55:52 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:55:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacementfrom Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811030018i37b134f7h56129458b83b8b70@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> <005900E143114310AA0023B5DE9FE815@tara> <6b79f1a70811030018i37b134f7h56129458b83b8b70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811030025m4d41c5bfg57c088ac495b6e30@mail.gmail.com> Yes, they are not communal, they are just blood red. Its sheer wastage of time to argue with people like Inder Salim. Their mind revolves only in one direction, you may go to the extent of twisting your neck, but nothing would help change such extreme hate mongers. They are unfortunately Indians, with no love for the country. They are too Arty just for their hate campaign against the country and its citizens.. Jai Hind. Hai Panun Kashmir. On 11/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > hello Tara , > > The only party not communal is the party with leftist badge..... > > > Bright star > > > Pawan > > > > On 11/3/08, taraprakash wrote: > > > > O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they don't > > have > > the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to parliament, > > Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new forces > to > > appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get > messier > > as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP and > > Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in India > > is > > reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As it > > gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for military > > intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then let > > us > > observe the political engineering. > > > > Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "inder salim" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacementfrom Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Pawan > > >> > > >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or > > > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ > > > > > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai > > > Maharashtra, > > > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to > > > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, > > > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with > > > the slogan which is Raj's, > > > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? > > > > > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, > > > > > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there > > > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, > > > > > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are > > > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. > > > > > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, > > > > > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai > > > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. > > > > > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because > > > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, > > > > > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. > > > > > > so, let us laugh, > > > > > > without malice towards one and all > > > > > > love > > > is > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Dear All, > > >>> > > >>> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > > >>> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > > >>> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > > >>> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > > >>> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > > >>> > > >>> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > > >>> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > > >>> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > > >>> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > > >>> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > > >>> taken to ensure that this can happen. > > >>> > > >>> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > > >>> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > > >>> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > > >>> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > > >>> making. > > >>> > > >>> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > > >>> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > > >>> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > > >>> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > > >>> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > > >>> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > > >>> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > > >>> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > > >>> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > > >>> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > > >>> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > > >>> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > > >>> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > > >>> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > > >>> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > > >>> extractive and authoritarian state. > > >>> > > >>> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > > >>> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > > >>> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > > >>> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > > >>> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > > >>> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > > >>> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > > >>> need to be seen in this light. > > >>> > > >>> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > > >>> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > > >>> of the many displaced communities in India. > > >>> > > >>> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > > >>> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > > >>> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > > >>> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > > >>> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > > >>> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > > >>> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > > >>> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > > >>> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > > >>> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > > >>> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > > >>> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > > >>> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > > >>> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > > >>> stranglehold. > > >>> > > >>> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > > >>> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > > >>> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > > >>> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > > >>> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > > >>> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > > >>> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > > >>> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > > >>> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > > >>> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > > >>> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > > >>> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > > >>> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > > >>> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > > >>> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > > >>> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > > >>> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > > >>> > > >>> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > > >>> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > > >>> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > > >>> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > > >>> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > > >>> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > > >>> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > > >>> > > >>> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > > >>> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > > >>> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > > >>> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > > >>> > > >>> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > > >>> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > > >>> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > > >>> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > > >>> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > > >>> > > >>> to a series of > > >>> > > >>> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > > >>> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > > >>> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > > >>> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > > >>> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > > >>> > > >>> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > > >>> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > > >>> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > > >>> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > > >>> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > > >>> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > > >>> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > > >>> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > > >>> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > > >>> > > >>> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > > >>> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > > >>> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > > >>> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > > >>> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > > >>> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > > >>> > > >>> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > > >>> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > > >>> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > > >>> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > > >>> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > > >>> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > > >>> > > >>> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > > >>> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > > >>> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > > >>> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > > >>> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > > >>> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > > >>> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > > >>> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > > >>> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > > >>> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > > >>> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > > >>> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > > >>> > > >>> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > > >>> internally displaced communities in India are like. > > >>> > > >>> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > > >>> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > > >>> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > > >>> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > > >>> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > > >>> displacement in India. > > >>> > > >>> see - > > >>> > > >>> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > > >>> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > > >>> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > > >>> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > > >>> > > >>> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > > >>> > > >>> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > > >>> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > > >>> > > >>> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > > >>> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > > >>> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > > >>> the ceasefire > > >>> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > > >>> Bodos during the 1990s > > >>> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > > >>> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > > >>> > > >>> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > > >>> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > > >>> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > > >>> updates.) > > >>> > > >>> The site goes on to say - > > >>> > > >>> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > > >>> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > > >>> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > > >>> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > > >>> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > > >>> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > > >>> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > > >>> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > > >>> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > > >>> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > > >>> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > > >>> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > > >>> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > > >>> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > > >>> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > > >>> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > > >>> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > > >>> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > > >>> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > > >>> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > > >>> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > > >>> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > > >>> > > >>> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > > >>> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > > >>> give a global estimate." > > >>> > > >>> ON RELIEF CAMPS > > >>> > > >>> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > > >>> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > > >>> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > > >>> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > > >>> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > > >>> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > > >>> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > > >>> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > > >>> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > > >>> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > > >>> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > > >>> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > > >>> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > > >>> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > > >>> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > > >>> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > > >>> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > > >>> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > > >>> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > > >>> > > >>> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > > >>> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > > >>> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > > >>> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > > >>> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > > >>> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > > >>> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > > >>> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > > >>> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > > >>> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > > >>> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > > >>> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > > >>> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > > >>> IIJ, December 2003). " > > >>> > > >>> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > > >>> > > >>> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > > >>> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > > >>> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > > >>> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > > >>> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > > >>> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > > >>> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > > >>> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > > >>> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > > >>> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > > >>> > > >>> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > > >>> POPULATIONS > > >>> > > >>> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > > >>> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > > >>> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > > >>> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > > >>> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > > >>> p.68). > > >>> > > >>> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > > >>> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > > >>> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > > >>> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > > >>> > > >>> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > > >>> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > > >>> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > > >>> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). > > >>> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > > >>> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > > >>> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > > >>> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > > >>> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > > >>> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > > >>> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > > >>> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > > >>> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > > >>> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > > >>> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > > >>> > > >>> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > > >>> > > >>> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > > >>> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > > >>> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > > >>> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > > >>> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > > >>> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > > >>> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > > >>> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > > >>> > > >>> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > > >>> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > > >>> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > > >>> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > > >>> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > > >>> of internal displacement in India. > > >>> > > >>> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > > >>> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > > >>> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > > >>> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > > >>> from that point of view, the situation of > > >>> > > >>> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > > >>> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > > >>> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > > >>> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > > >>> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > > >>> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > > >>> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > > >>> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > > >>> > > >>> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > > >>> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > > >>> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > > >>> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > > >>> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > > >>> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > > >>> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > > >>> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > > >>> > > >>> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > > >>> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > > >>> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > > >>> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > > >>> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > > >>> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > > >>> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > > >>> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > > >>> different. ' > > >>> > > >>> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > > >>> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > > >>> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > > >>> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > > >>> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > > >>> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > > >>> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > > >>> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > > >>> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > > >>> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > > >>> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > > >>> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > > >>> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > > >>> > > >>> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > > >>> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > > >>> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > > >>> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > > >>> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > > >>> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > > >>> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > > >>> against oppression. > > >>> > > >>> regards, > > >>> > > >>> Shuddha > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From dan.ayyaar at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 14:37:24 2008 From: dan.ayyaar at gmail.com (Danish Husain) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:37:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacementfrom Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6353c690811030025m4d41c5bfg57c088ac495b6e30@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811010141n3ad20595m2f91f2d6441ae9d6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> <005900E143114310AA0023B5DE9FE815@tara> <6b79f1a70811030018i37b134f7h56129458b83b8b70@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811030025m4d41c5bfg57c088ac495b6e30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61cdd2df0811030107x576c0128w94f72875ba22a91b@mail.gmail.com> This is what I say degeneracy, this is what one means when saying hijacking an agenda. Shuddha made a point in a civil and an academic way. He gave references, backed his argument with facts, and raised some pertinent issues. Well, let's say even if he's prejudiced, even if he has a covert agenda, even if he has malafide interest, still why get down to a diatribe? What would one achieve by personal attacks? If you feel his allegations are unjust, if you feel he is twisting facts, if you feel his arguments are bogus then please do refute it. But refute it in a manner where you can meet his challenge head-on. Where you can counter his ammunition effectively. Where you can raise the debate to a level where everyone gains an insight and sees merit in the other person's argument. This is similar to standing in front of a man with a canon and all one can do is bare one's chest, rant, shout invectives, and when hit by the fireball, foolishly shout for one's cause, fall and secretly wish one will be hailed as a martyr. I guess such tokenism will only erode one's credibility. I don't think people sit here and nurse hatred on this reader list all day. We all are looking for an exchange that will enrich us, broaden our spectrum and understanding, and perhaps make us more humane in our conduct. So, I'll request all of you my friends, to espouse your cause, inundate us with your plight, take pride in what you do but do it in a manner where I can see and feel your honour and empathise with you. Thanks and warmly D On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Yes, they are not communal, they are just blood red. > > Its sheer wastage of time to argue with people like Inder Salim. Their mind > revolves only in one direction, you may go to the extent of twisting your > neck, but nothing would help change such extreme hate mongers. They are > unfortunately Indians, with no love for the country. They are too Arty just > for their hate campaign against the country and its citizens.. > > Jai Hind. Hai Panun Kashmir. > > > > On 11/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > hello Tara , > > > > The only party not communal is the party with leftist badge..... > > > > > > Bright star > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 11/3/08, taraprakash wrote: > > > > > > O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they don't > > > have > > > the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to > parliament, > > > Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new > forces > > to > > > appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get > > messier > > > as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP > and > > > Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in > India > > > is > > > reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As > it > > > gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for military > > > intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then > let > > > us > > > observe the political engineering. > > > > > > Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "inder salim" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:33 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > > Displacementfrom Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Pawan > > > >> > > > >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > > > > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or > > > > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ > > > > > > > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai > > > > Maharashtra, > > > > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to > > > > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, > > > > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship > with > > > > the slogan which is Raj's, > > > > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? > > > > > > > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, > > > > > > > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there > > > > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, > > > > > > > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are > > > > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. > > > > > > > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai > > > > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. > > > > > > > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because > > > > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, > > > > > > > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. > > > > > > > > so, let us laugh, > > > > > > > > without malice towards one and all > > > > > > > > love > > > > is > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Dear All, > > > >>> > > > >>> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > > > >>> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list > by > > > >>> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > > > >>> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > > > >>> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > > > >>> > > > >>> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of > the > > > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > > > >>> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in > conditions > > > >>> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > > > >>> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support > the > > > >>> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > > > >>> taken to ensure that this can happen. > > > >>> > > > >>> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > > > >>> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > > > >>> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > > > >>> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their > own > > > >>> making. > > > >>> > > > >>> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > > > >>> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public > fora, > > > >>> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir > and > > > >>> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of > the > > > >>> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space > for > > > >>> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > > > >>> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > > > >>> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > > > >>> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not > less > > > >>> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. > They > > > >>> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > > > >>> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so > called > > > >>> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so > called > > > >>> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > > > >>> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > > > >>> extractive and authoritarian state. > > > >>> > > > >>> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > > > >>> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > > > >>> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > > > >>> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun > Kashmir > > > >>> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors > will > > > >>> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > > > >>> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > > > >>> need to be seen in this light. > > > >>> > > > >>> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose > sight > > > >>> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only > one > > > >>> of the many displaced communities in India. > > > >>> > > > >>> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > > > >>> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as > have > > > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > > > >>> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > > > >>> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > > > >>> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India > by > > > >>> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > > > >>> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > > > >>> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > > > >>> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. > In > > > >>> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced > Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > > > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many > sensible > > > >>> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > > > >>> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before > these > > > >>> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > > > >>> stranglehold. > > > >>> > > > >>> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > > > >>> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > > > >>> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' > that > > > >>> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > > > >>> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging > to > > > >>> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have > thought > > > >>> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > > > >>> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > > > >>> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > > > >>> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > > > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > > > >>> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > > > >>> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > > > >>> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > > > >>> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > > > >>> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have > commented > > > >>> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > > > >>> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > > > >>> > > > >>> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the > plight > > > >>> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > > > >>> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > > > >>> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > > > >>> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > > > >>> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > > > >>> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > > > >>> > > > >>> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > > > >>> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > > > >>> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > > > >>> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > > > >>> > > > >>> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > > > >>> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > > > >>> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on > > > >>> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced > Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > > > >>> > > > >>> to a series of > > > >>> > > > >>> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, > ex- > > > >>> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > > > >>> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > > > >>> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen > to > > > >>> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > > > >>> > > > >>> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > > > >>> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > > > >>> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all > aspects > > > >>> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest > solutions. > > > >>> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > > > >>> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > > > >>> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > > > >>> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > > > >>> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > > > >>> > > > >>> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced > from > > > >>> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > > > >>> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living > in > > > >>> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > > > >>> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > > > >>> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > > > >>> > > > >>> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to > Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > > > >>> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for > Dignity > > > >>> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the > Observer > > > >>> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > > > >>> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > > > >>> > > > >>> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate > to > > > >>> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > > > >>> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > > > >>> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > > > >>> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > > > >>> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > > > >>> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > > > >>> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their > spokepersons > > > >>> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > > > >>> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > > > >>> > > > >>> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > > > >>> internally displaced communities in India are like. > > > >>> > > > >>> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts > available > > > >>> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > > > >>> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation > of > > > >>> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > > > >>> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > > > >>> displacement in India. > > > >>> > > > >>> see - > > > >>> > > > >>> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It > highlights > > > >>> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > > > >>> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > > > >>> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > > > >>> > > > >>> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > > > >>> > > > >>> "The most common figure for the total number of internally > displaced > > > >>> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > > > >>> > > > >>> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government > figure) > > > >>> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of > the > > > >>> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return > despite > > > >>> the ceasefire > > > >>> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals > and > > > >>> Bodos during the 1990s > > > >>> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > > > >>> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > > > >>> > > > >>> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > > > >>> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the > anti- > > > >>> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > > > >>> updates.) > > > >>> > > > >>> The site goes on to say - > > > >>> > > > >>> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > > > >>> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number > of > > > >>> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the > Karbi-Anglong > > > >>> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups > and > > > >>> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > > > >>> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > > > >>> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > > > >>> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. > In > > > >>> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > > > >>> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the > past > > > >>> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > > > >>> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > > > >>> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped > the > > > >>> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > > > >>> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the > statistics. > > > >>> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > > > >>> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave > in > > > >>> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. > The > > > >>> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > > > >>> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > > > >>> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > > > >>> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > > > >>> > > > >>> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced > is > > > >>> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible > to > > > >>> give a global estimate." > > > >>> > > > >>> ON RELIEF CAMPS > > > >>> > > > >>> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > > > >>> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced > across > > > >>> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > > > >>> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by > earlier > > > >>> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > > > >>> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings > and > > > >>> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > > > >>> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > > > >>> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced > in > > > >>> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). > The > > > >>> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > > > >>> displaced population and that they depend on support from the > central > > > >>> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > > > >>> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no > relief > > > >>> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > > > >>> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > > > >>> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region > are > > > >>> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > > > >>> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > > > >>> > > > >>> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for > internally > > > >>> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have > documented > > > >>> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > > > >>> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are > reports > > > >>> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > > > >>> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > > > >>> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > > > >>> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the > riots. > > > >>> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > > > >>> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > > > >>> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, > sanitary > > > >>> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 > January > > > >>> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > > > >>> IIJ, December 2003). " > > > >>> > > > >>> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > > > >>> > > > >>> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > > > >>> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > > > >>> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > > > >>> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, > and > > > >>> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > > > >>> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is > well > > > >>> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces > have > > > >>> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there > have > > > >>> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > > > >>> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > > > >>> > > > >>> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > > > >>> POPULATIONS > > > >>> > > > >>> "Although the Indian government provides support to > conflict-affected > > > >>> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not > correspond > > > >>> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > > > >>> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > > > >>> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January > 2005, > > > >>> p.68). > > > >>> > > > >>> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment > of > > > >>> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit > population > > > >>> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > > > >>> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > > > >>> > > > >>> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the > UN > > > >>> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > > > >>> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir > and > > > >>> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September > 2003). > > > >>> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > > > >>> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > > > >>> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > > > >>> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > > > >>> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > > > >>> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government > to > > > >>> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > > > >>> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > > > >>> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > > > >>> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > > > >>> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > > > >>> > > > >>> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > > > >>> > > > >>> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > > > >>> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > > > >>> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > > > >>> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > > > >>> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > > > >>> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > > > >>> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > > > >>> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > > > >>> > > > >>> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > > > >>> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > > > >>> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > > > >>> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > > > >>> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall > situation > > > >>> of internal displacement in India. > > > >>> > > > >>> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > > > >>> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in > one > > > >>> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to > pay > > > >>> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > > > >>> from that point of view, the situation of > > > >>> > > > >>> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of > the > > > >>> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 > % > > > >>> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of > 4.9 > > > >>> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > > > >>> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that > Pandits > > > >>> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > > > >>> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri > Pandit > > > >>> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > > > >>> > > > >>> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > > > >>> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > > > >>> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > > > >>> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the > Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > > > >>> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > > > >>> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > > > >>> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > > > >>> > > > >>> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are > all > > > >>> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually > vibrant > > > >>> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from > their > > > >>> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they > were > > > >>> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 > and > > > >>> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in > which > > > >>> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > > > >>> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > > > >>> different. ' > > > >>> > > > >>> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > > > >>> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > > > >>> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > > > >>> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my > with > > > >>> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > > > >>> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > > > >>> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > > > >>> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > > > >>> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on > in > > > >>> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs > to > > > >>> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > > > >>> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > > > >>> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of > the > > > >>> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > > > >>> > > > >>> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > > > >>> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > > > >>> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > > > >>> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > > > >>> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease > on > > > >>> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > > > >>> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > > > >>> against oppression. > > > >>> > > > >>> regards, > > > >>> > > > >>> Shuddha > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> _________________________________________ > > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 15:06:55 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:06:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... Message-ID: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Aditya and others Sorry to butt in again, but I was wondering if you folks saw my last mail (titled: one more....email) in which I made a couple of submissions. The aim of my message (excerpts of which I am giving below once again) was to take this dialogue towards a more practical and proactive direction rather than the present status quo of mud-slinging match between the two parties. Can we, for some time at least, become more serious about this and stop doubting each other's intentions. And this request is also for other members of reader-list, such as Aarti, Inder, Shivam etc., to kindly refrain from only a reactionary feedback and personal attacks, and look for possible solutions (although I know some of you are trying hard to resolve things). So, to begin with, I want to ask both the parties, if they agree to the following statements which I had given in my last email. If there is anything you want to add, or disagree with, please let us know. Shuddha, I know you took pains to give contrary statistics about some of the following, and while I agree with you, I want to ignore it for a while, in order to bring some order to the reader-list. (1) I fully realize and SYMPATHISE with the plight the migrant Kashmiri Pandits have gone through. (2) I CONDEMN the "Muslim" extremists who have used violence and torture on Kashmiri Pundits. (3) I agree that Kashmiri Pundits have the right to return to their homeland, and all possible efforts should be made for their safe return and livelihood. (4) All Kashmiri Pundits persecuted and uprooted from their homeland should be fully compensated (5) Those who incurred the violence on Kashmiri Pundits should be punished according to the law. (6) I am ready to help or contribute in any way towards the betterment of the current plight of migrant Kashmiri Pundits, and appeal others to do the same. If there is anything else anyone wishes to add to the list, which is a sensible demand/request, I would be ready to endorse that as well. One of you said that "we'll not sit quitely until the murderers of the Kashmiri Pundits are not hanged in Tihar jail" or something like that. Fine, are you in the process of fighting a case against those perpetrators? Or do you want an help in that regard from the Sarai members. Tell us, what exactly do you want us to do. How can we help in bringing justice to you. Kirdar On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Yes, they are not communal, they are just blood red. > > Its sheer wastage of time to argue with people like Inder Salim. Their mind > revolves only in one direction, you may go to the extent of twisting your > neck, but nothing would help change such extreme hate mongers. They are > unfortunately Indians, with no love for the country. They are too Arty just > for their hate campaign against the country and its citizens.. > > Jai Hind. Hai Panun Kashmir. > > > > On 11/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> hello Tara , >> >> The only party not communal is the party with leftist badge..... >> >> >> Bright star >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On 11/3/08, taraprakash wrote: >> > >> > O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they don't >> > have >> > the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to parliament, >> > Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new forces >> to >> > appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get >> messier >> > as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP and >> > Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in India >> > is >> > reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As it >> > gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for military >> > intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then let >> > us >> > observe the political engineering. >> > >> > Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "inder salim" >> > To: >> > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:33 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> > Displacementfrom Kashmir >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> >> > >> Pawan >> > >> >> > >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> > > >> > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or >> > > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ >> > > >> > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai >> > > Maharashtra, >> > > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to >> > > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, >> > > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with >> > > the slogan which is Raj's, >> > > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? >> > > >> > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, >> > > >> > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there >> > > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, >> > > >> > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are >> > > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. >> > > >> > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, >> > > >> > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai >> > > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. >> > > >> > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because >> > > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, >> > > >> > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. >> > > >> > > so, let us laugh, >> > > >> > > without malice towards one and all >> > > >> > > love >> > > is >> > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Dear All, >> > >>> >> > >>> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> > >>> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> > >>> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> > >>> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> > >>> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> > >>> >> > >>> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> > >>> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> > >>> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> > >>> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> > >>> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> > >>> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> > >>> >> > >>> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> > >>> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> > >>> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> > >>> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> > >>> making. >> > >>> >> > >>> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> > >>> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> > >>> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> > >>> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> > >>> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> > >>> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> > >>> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> > >>> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> > >>> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> > >>> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> > >>> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> > >>> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> > >>> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> > >>> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> > >>> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> > >>> extractive and authoritarian state. >> > >>> >> > >>> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> > >>> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> > >>> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> > >>> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> > >>> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> > >>> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> > >>> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> > >>> need to be seen in this light. >> > >>> >> > >>> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> > >>> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> > >>> of the many displaced communities in India. >> > >>> >> > >>> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> > >>> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> > >>> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> > >>> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> > >>> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> > >>> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> > >>> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> > >>> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> > >>> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> > >>> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> > >>> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> > >>> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> > >>> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> > >>> stranglehold. >> > >>> >> > >>> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> > >>> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> > >>> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> > >>> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> > >>> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> > >>> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> > >>> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> > >>> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> > >>> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> > >>> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> > >>> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> > >>> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> > >>> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> > >>> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> > >>> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> > >>> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> > >>> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> > >>> >> > >>> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> > >>> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> > >>> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> > >>> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> > >>> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> > >>> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> > >>> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> > >>> >> > >>> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> > >>> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> > >>> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> > >>> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> > >>> >> > >>> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> > >>> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> > >>> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> > >>> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> > >>> >> > >>> to a series of >> > >>> >> > >>> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> > >>> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> > >>> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> > >>> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> > >>> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> > >>> >> > >>> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> > >>> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> > >>> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> > >>> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> > >>> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> > >>> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> > >>> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> > >>> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> > >>> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> > >>> >> > >>> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> > >>> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> > >>> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> > >>> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> > >>> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> > >>> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> > >>> >> > >>> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> > >>> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> > >>> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> > >>> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> > >>> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> > >>> >> > >>> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> > >>> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> > >>> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> > >>> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> > >>> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> > >>> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> > >>> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> > >>> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> > >>> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> > >>> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> > >>> >> > >>> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> > >>> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> > >>> >> > >>> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> > >>> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> > >>> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> > >>> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> > >>> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> > >>> displacement in India. >> > >>> >> > >>> see - >> > >>> >> > >>> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> > >>> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> > >>> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> > >>> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> > >>> >> > >>> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> > >>> >> > >>> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> > >>> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> > >>> >> > >>> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> > >>> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> > >>> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> > >>> the ceasefire >> > >>> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> > >>> Bodos during the 1990s >> > >>> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> > >>> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> > >>> >> > >>> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> > >>> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> > >>> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> > >>> updates.) >> > >>> >> > >>> The site goes on to say - >> > >>> >> > >>> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> > >>> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> > >>> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> > >>> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> > >>> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> > >>> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> > >>> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> > >>> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> > >>> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> > >>> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> > >>> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> > >>> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> > >>> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> > >>> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> > >>> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> > >>> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> > >>> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> > >>> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> > >>> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> > >>> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> > >>> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> > >>> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> > >>> >> > >>> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> > >>> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> > >>> give a global estimate." >> > >>> >> > >>> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> > >>> >> > >>> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> > >>> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> > >>> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> > >>> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> > >>> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> > >>> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> > >>> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> > >>> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> > >>> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> > >>> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> > >>> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> > >>> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> > >>> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> > >>> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> > >>> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> > >>> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> > >>> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> > >>> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> > >>> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> > >>> >> > >>> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> > >>> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> > >>> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> > >>> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> > >>> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> > >>> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> > >>> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> > >>> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> > >>> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> > >>> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> > >>> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> > >>> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> > >>> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> > >>> IIJ, December 2003). " >> > >>> >> > >>> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> > >>> >> > >>> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> > >>> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> > >>> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> > >>> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> > >>> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> > >>> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> > >>> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> > >>> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> > >>> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> > >>> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> > >>> >> > >>> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> > >>> POPULATIONS >> > >>> >> > >>> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> > >>> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> > >>> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> > >>> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> > >>> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> > >>> p.68). >> > >>> >> > >>> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> > >>> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> > >>> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> > >>> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> > >>> >> > >>> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> > >>> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> > >>> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> > >>> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> > >>> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> > >>> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> > >>> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> > >>> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> > >>> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> > >>> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> > >>> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> > >>> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> > >>> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> > >>> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> > >>> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> > >>> >> > >>> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> > >>> >> > >>> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> > >>> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> > >>> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> > >>> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> > >>> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> > >>> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> > >>> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> > >>> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> > >>> >> > >>> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> > >>> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> > >>> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> > >>> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> > >>> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> > >>> of internal displacement in India. >> > >>> >> > >>> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> > >>> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> > >>> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> > >>> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> > >>> from that point of view, the situation of >> > >>> >> > >>> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> > >>> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> > >>> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> > >>> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> > >>> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> > >>> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> > >>> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> > >>> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> > >>> >> > >>> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> > >>> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> > >>> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> > >>> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> > >>> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> > >>> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> > >>> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> > >>> >> > >>> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> > >>> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> > >>> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> > >>> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> > >>> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> > >>> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> > >>> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> > >>> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> > >>> different. ' >> > >>> >> > >>> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> > >>> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> > >>> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> > >>> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> > >>> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> > >>> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> > >>> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> > >>> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> > >>> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> > >>> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> > >>> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> > >>> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> > >>> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> > >>> >> > >>> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> > >>> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> > >>> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> > >>> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> > >>> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> > >>> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> > >>> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> > >>> against oppression. >> > >>> >> > >>> regards, >> > >>> >> > >>> Shuddha >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 15:45:52 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 02:15:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161937.8276.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Inder,   INDIA is not some thing like states a-z.  You should understand what is INDIA first.   about this, "yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too".     Every "you" and "me" is a "we".  INDIA is not just Dhatri and Aditya but it is  a "we".   Dhatri.   --- On Sun, 11/2/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 11:03 PM > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai Maharashtra, and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship with the slogan which is Raj's, are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, you know, there is lot of humour in it. so, let us laugh, without malice towards one and all love is > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> making. >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> need to be seen in this light. >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> stranglehold. >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay on >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> to a series of >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> displacement in India. >> >> see - >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> the ceasefire >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> Bodos during the 1990s >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> updates.) >> >> The site goes on to say - >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> give a global estimate." >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> POPULATIONS >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> p.68). >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> of internal displacement in India. >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> from that point of view, the situation of >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> different. ' >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> against oppression. >> >> regards, >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 16:35:30 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:35:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 References: Message-ID: <905075.48377.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> So, you, Inder at it again.? List has civilised persons discussing culture and behaviour, we can tolerate your cultured talk in most un civilised format, but civilised society can not go ontolerating your uncultured begaviour , as you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.?   Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love.  ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 2 November, 2008 4:14:27 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement    from       Kashmir (Pawan Durani)   2. Re: Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement    from       Kashmir (inder salim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:39:24 +0530 From: "Pawan Durani" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal     Displacement    from Kashmir To: "inder salim" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <6b79f1a70811020009v61ebfffdn75a28a7da047603b at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" IInder, till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand Temple. Pawan On 11/1/08, inder salim wrote: > > dear Pawan, > > Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai > Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) > > Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a deep > commitment. > And if the Brahman dies in the temple of  idols, bury him  the Kabba. > # > Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief  ( Imaan ) here, > is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as > Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of > idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never > bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi > traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must > have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation > > well, if  you can please convey the below mentioned  couplet to Jai > Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it > is again > > BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN > FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) > > HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, > IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA > > > without malice towards one and all > > is > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . > > > > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from > raising > > their voices. > > > > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for > us > > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we > can > > support others. > > > > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike > some > > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their > > cause by trying to create an opinion. > > > > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We > know > > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. > > > > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play > > around and instead take a walk. > > > > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. > > > > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in > the > > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. > > > > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 > > migrations in 10 centuries.......... > > > > > > Now ...no more........ > > > > > > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... > > > > > > Pawan > > > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > > > > > > > > > > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by > >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >> > >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the > >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions > >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the > >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > >> taken to ensure that this can happen. > >> > >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for > >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own > >> making. > >> > >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, > >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and > >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the > >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for > >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive > >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less > >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They > >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called > >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called > >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >> extractive and authoritarian state. > >> > >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir > >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will > >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by > >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent > >> need to be seen in this light. > >> > >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight > >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one > >> of the many displaced communities in India. > >> > >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have > >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be > >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by > >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits > >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In > >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible > >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these > >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >> stranglehold. > >> > >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that > >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to > >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought > >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya > >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented > >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > >> > >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight > >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their > >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >> > >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have > >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >> > >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997)  to a stay on > >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >> > >> to a series of > >> > >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- > >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well > >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to > >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >> > >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects > >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. > >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >> > >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from > >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for > >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in > >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >> > >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri > >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity > >> - Report  of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer > >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > >> > >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to > >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, > >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to have > >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons > >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >> > >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > >> internally displaced communities in India are like. > >> > >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available > >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of > >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am > >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > >> displacement in India. > >> > >> see - > >> > >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights > >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >> > >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >> > >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced > >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >> > >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) > >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the > >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite > >> the ceasefire > >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and > >> Bodos during the 1990s > >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > >> > >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- > >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > >> updates.) > >> > >> The site goes on to say - > >> > >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of > >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong > >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and > >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In > >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past > >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the > >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over > >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. > >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in > >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The > >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live > >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >> > >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is > >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to > >> give a global estimate." > >> > >> ON RELIEF CAMPS > >> > >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across > >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier > >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and > >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal > >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute > >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in > >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The > >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central > >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief > >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are > >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places > >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >> > >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally > >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented > >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports > >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities > >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. > >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary > >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January > >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > >> IIJ, December 2003). " > >> > >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >> > >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. > >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and > >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well > >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have > >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have > >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >> > >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > >> POPULATIONS > >> > >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected > >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond > >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, > >> p.68). > >> > >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of > >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population > >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >> > >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN > >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international > >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and > >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p..38; ORF, September 2003). > >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India > >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will > >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to > >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well > >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003).. > >> > >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >> > >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although > >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > >> > >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount > >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation > >> of internal displacement in India. > >> > >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one > >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay > >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > >> from that point of view, the situation of > >> > >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the > >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % > >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 > >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits > >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit > >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >> > >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > >> Kashmir held by India,  and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much > >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well > >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri > >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it > >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > >> > >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all > >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant > >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their > >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were > >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and > >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which > >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > >> different. ' > >> > >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no > >> matter what their politics or affiliation)  for a single moment > >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural > >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with > >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in > >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to > >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the > >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > >> > >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion > >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I > >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on > >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off > >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument > >> against oppression. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:14:06 +0530 From: "inder salim" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal     Displacement    from Kashmir To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <47e122a70811020244j72128784v66ecaa812044bb3d at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" well, dear pawan how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, it is beyond my comprehension. why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. how  my nidity hits you below the belt,  i dont understand. Hindu gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this question? well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our intolerance towards the other is the core reason. we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous most of times,  and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and profoundity at the same time. lot of love and regards is p.s. if you are  still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from all this On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > IInder, > > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand Temple. > > Pawan > > > On 11/1/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> dear Pawan, >> >> Vafadari bashart-e ustuvari, asl-e imaan hai >> Mare buut khane mein, to kabe mein gard do Brahman ko ( Ghalib ) >> >> Condition of realization of 'belief' is faithfulness with a deep >> commitment. >> And if the Brahman dies in the temple of  idols, bury him  the Kabba. >> # >> Commentary: I asked my professor, he said, the belief  ( Imaan ) here, >> is not about Religion, but about universal human values, such as >> Love…. and if the idol worshipper, the Brahmin, dies in a temple of >> idols, then dig a pit in kabba and drop him there. Well, Ghalib never >> bothered to perform Haj, and as inheritor of deep Indian Sufi >> traditions of erstwhile Sufi Saints and poets, he, therefore, must >> have found Hajis no better than Brahmins. ( just an interpretation >> >> well, if  you can please convey the below mentioned  couplet to Jai >> Maharashtrawalla,, Jai Bals, Jai, Rajs and Ji Bharat lovers. here it >> is again >> >> BAITHA HAI JO KI SAYAH -DIVAR-E- YAR MEIN >> FARMAN-RAVAE KISHVAR-E- HINDUSTAN HAI ( Ghalib ) >> >> HE, WHO GETS TO SIT IN THE SHADOW OF THE WALL OF THE BELOVED'S HOME, >> IS INDEED THE EXALTED RULER OF INDIA >> >> >> without malice towards one and all >> >> is >> >> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Shuddha, >> > >> > It is a disaster for any nation to have a person like you as a citizen . >> > >> > Kashmiri Pandits have not stopped any other displaced community from >> > raising >> > their voices. >> > >> > Since , we Kashmiri Pandits have been victimised , it is but natural for >> > us >> > to raise our voice for our rights. Once we get our rights, then only we >> > can >> > support others. >> > >> > Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and it is a unpaid job, unlike >> > some >> > surrogates who act proxy for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> > cause by trying to create an opinion. >> > >> > Also Shuddha , just shut up your lip service for Kashmiri pandits. We >> > know >> > where you are coming from ! Don't play around with words. >> > >> > Your words , as always are manipulative with an agenda....... dont play >> > around and instead take a walk. >> > >> > I am sure this group by now knows your plans and agenda. >> > >> > And dont worry , till the killers of Kashmiri Pandits are not hanged in >> > the >> > Tohar jail........Panun Kashmir and Roots In Kashmir would not rest. >> > >> > We have to set an example , once for all. We have already suffered 10 >> > migrations in 10 centuries......... >> > >> > >> > Now ...no more........ >> > >> > >> > No need to be sad ...Shuiddha..... >> > >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to >> >> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list by >> >> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are >> >> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and >> >> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. >> >> >> >> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of the >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with >> >> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in conditions >> >> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir >> >> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support the >> >> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be >> >> taken to ensure that this can happen. >> >> >> >> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in >> >> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement for >> >> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without >> >> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to >> >> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their own >> >> making. >> >> >> >> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those >> >> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public fora, >> >> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of the >> >> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space for >> >> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is obstructive >> >> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that >> >> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a >> >> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not less >> >> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. They >> >> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as >> >> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so called >> >> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so called >> >> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and >> >> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an >> >> extractive and authoritarian state. >> >> >> >> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in >> >> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of >> >> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as >> >> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent >> >> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun Kashmir >> >> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors will >> >> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts by >> >> these individuals and the organizations and networks they represent >> >> need to be seen in this light. >> >> >> >> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose sight >> >> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only one >> >> of the many displaced communities in India. >> >> >> >> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced >> >> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as have >> >> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should be >> >> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and >> >> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the >> >> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India by >> >> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri Pandits >> >> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been >> >> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within >> >> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. In >> >> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many sensible >> >> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through >> >> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before these >> >> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their >> >> stranglehold. >> >> >> >> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and >> >> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other >> >> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' that >> >> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all >> >> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging to >> >> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have thought >> >> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced >> >> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the >> >> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. >> >> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as >> >> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in >> >> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv >> >> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the Rashtriya >> >> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor >> >> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun >> >> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have commented >> >> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it >> >> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. >> >> >> >> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the plight >> >> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no >> >> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits >> >> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they >> >> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view their >> >> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the >> >> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. >> >> >> >> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced >> >> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who have >> >> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their >> >> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - >> >> >> >> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left >> >> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, >> >> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997)  to a stay on >> >> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) >> >> >> >> to a series of >> >> >> >> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, ex- >> >> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as well >> >> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people >> >> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen to >> >> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> >> >> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 >> >> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the >> >> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all aspects >> >> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest solutions. >> >> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and >> >> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of >> >> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the >> >> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total >> >> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. >> >> >> >> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced from >> >> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister for >> >> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living in >> >> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion >> >> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for >> >> the improvement of camp infrastructure. >> >> >> >> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to Kashmiri >> >> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in >> >> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for Dignity >> >> - Report  of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the Observer >> >> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in >> >> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] >> >> >> >> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate to >> >> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am >> >> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally >> >> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on it, >> >> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its >> >> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other >> >> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position.. Thisought to have >> >> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their spokepersons >> >> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. >> >> Unfortunately, that is not the case. >> >> >> >> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other >> >> internally displaced communities in India are like. >> >> >> >> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts available >> >> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an >> >> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation of >> >> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I am >> >> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal >> >> displacement in India. >> >> >> >> see - >> >> >> >> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It highlights >> >> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases >> >> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of >> >> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) >> >> >> >> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES >> >> >> >> "The most common figure for the total number of internally displaced >> >> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: >> >> >> >> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government figure) >> >> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of the >> >> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return despite >> >> the ceasefire >> >> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals and >> >> Bodos during the 1990s >> >> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura >> >> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" >> >> >> >> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of >> >> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the anti- >> >> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and >> >> updates.) >> >> >> >> The site goes on to say - >> >> >> >> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to >> >> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number of >> >> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the Karbi-Anglong >> >> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups and >> >> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during >> >> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to >> >> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an >> >> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. In >> >> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are >> >> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the past >> >> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued >> >> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the >> >> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped the >> >> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing over >> >> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the statistics. >> >> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for >> >> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave in >> >> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. The >> >> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp >> >> population only and not those internally displaced who largely live >> >> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum >> >> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. >> >> >> >> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced is >> >> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible to >> >> give a global estimate." >> >> >> >> ON RELIEF CAMPS >> >> >> >> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are >> >> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced across >> >> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, >> >> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by earlier >> >> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- >> >> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings and >> >> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to formal >> >> education (SAHRDC, March 2001).. Both in Assam and in Tripura, acute >> >> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced in >> >> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). The >> >> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the >> >> displaced population and that they depend on support from the central >> >> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local >> >> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no relief >> >> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven >> >> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In >> >> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region are >> >> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other places >> >> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). >> >> >> >> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for internally >> >> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have documented >> >> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor >> >> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are reports >> >> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed atrocities >> >> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; >> >> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute >> >> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the riots. >> >> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with >> >> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief >> >> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, sanitary >> >> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 January >> >> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; >> >> IIJ, December 2003). " >> >> >> >> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs >> >> >> >> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in >> >> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal >> >> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national sovereignty. >> >> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, and >> >> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently >> >> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is well >> >> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces have >> >> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there have >> >> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of >> >> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." >> >> >> >> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP >> >> POPULATIONS >> >> >> >> "Although the Indian government provides support to conflict-affected >> >> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not correspond >> >> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the >> >> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but >> >> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January 2005, >> >> p.68). >> >> >> >> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment of >> >> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit population >> >> overall receives much more support than displaced communities >> >> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." >> >> >> >> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the UN >> >> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other international >> >> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir and >> >> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September 2003). >> >> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in India >> >> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not >> >> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any >> >> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more >> >> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return will >> >> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government to >> >> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In >> >> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as well >> >> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the >> >> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with >> >> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). >> >> >> >> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT >> >> >> >> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are >> >> internally displaced due to development projects in India. Although >> >> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total >> >> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced >> >> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled >> >> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate >> >> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive >> >> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." >> >> >> >> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced >> >> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger >> >> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we >> >> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be >> >> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate amount >> >> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall situation >> >> of internal displacement in India. >> >> >> >> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human >> >> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in one >> >> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to pay >> >> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even >> >> from that point of view, the situation of >> >> >> >> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of the >> >> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 % >> >> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of 4.9 >> >> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the >> >> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that Pandits >> >> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we >> >> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri Pandit >> >> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? >> >> >> >> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of >> >> Kashmir held by India,  and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very much >> >> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as well >> >> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the Kashmiri >> >> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably >> >> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the >> >> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as it >> >> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the >> >> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. >> >> >> >> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are all >> >> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually vibrant >> >> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from their >> >> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires >> >> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they were >> >> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 and >> >> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in which >> >> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the >> >> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been >> >> different. ' >> >> >> >> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir (no >> >> matter what their politics or affiliation)  for a single moment >> >> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the cultural >> >> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my with >> >> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for >> >> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels >> >> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and >> >> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun >> >> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on in >> >> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs to >> >> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has >> >> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, >> >> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of the >> >> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. >> >> >> >> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the discussion >> >> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri >> >> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and I >> >> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and >> >> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease on >> >> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse off >> >> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an argument >> >> against oppression. >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 ******************************************* Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail..com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 18:45:39 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 18:45:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> To start with can the members of SARAI run a campaign to bring to justice people like Yasin Malik and Bitta Karate ? Are there volunteers ? Will Shuddha and Shivam take the lead ? Pawan On 11/3/08, Kirdar wrote: > > Dear Pawan, Aditya and others > Sorry to butt in again, but I was wondering if you folks saw my last > mail (titled: one more....email) in which I made a couple of > submissions. The aim of my message (excerpts of which I am giving > below once again) was to take this dialogue towards a more practical > and proactive direction rather than the present status quo of > mud-slinging match between the two parties. Can we, for some time at > least, become more serious about this and stop doubting each other's > intentions. And this request is also for other members of reader-list, > such as Aarti, Inder, Shivam etc., to kindly refrain from only a > reactionary feedback and personal attacks, and look for possible > solutions (although I know some of you are trying hard to resolve > things). So, to begin with, I want to ask both the parties, if they > agree to the following statements which I had given in my last email. > If there is anything you want to add, or disagree with, please let us > know. Shuddha, I know you took pains to give contrary statistics about > some of the following, and while I agree with you, I want to ignore it > for a while, in order to bring some order to the reader-list. > > (1) I fully realize and SYMPATHISE with the plight the migrant > Kashmiri Pandits have gone through. > (2) I CONDEMN the "Muslim" extremists who have used violence and > torture on Kashmiri Pundits. > (3) I agree that Kashmiri Pundits have the right to return to their > homeland, and all possible efforts should be made for their safe > return and livelihood. > (4) All Kashmiri Pundits persecuted and uprooted from their homeland > should be fully compensated > (5) Those who incurred the violence on Kashmiri Pundits should be > punished according to the law. > (6) I am ready to help or contribute in any way towards the betterment > of the current plight of migrant Kashmiri Pundits, and appeal others > to do the same. > > If there is anything else anyone wishes to add to the list, which is a > sensible demand/request, I would be ready to endorse that as well. > > One of you said that "we'll not sit quitely until the murderers of the > Kashmiri Pundits are not hanged in Tihar jail" or something like that. > Fine, are you in the process of fighting a case against those > perpetrators? Or do you want an help in that regard from the Sarai > members. Tell us, what exactly do you want us to do. How can we help > in bringing justice to you. > > Kirdar > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Yes, they are not communal, they are just blood red. > > > > Its sheer wastage of time to argue with people like Inder Salim. Their > mind > > revolves only in one direction, you may go to the extent of twisting your > > neck, but nothing would help change such extreme hate mongers. They are > > unfortunately Indians, with no love for the country. They are too Arty > just > > for their hate campaign against the country and its citizens.. > > > > Jai Hind. Hai Panun Kashmir. > > > > > > > > On 11/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> hello Tara , > >> > >> The only party not communal is the party with leftist badge..... > >> > >> > >> Bright star > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> On 11/3/08, taraprakash wrote: > >> > > >> > O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they > don't > >> > have > >> > the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to > parliament, > >> > Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new > forces > >> to > >> > appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get > >> messier > >> > as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP > and > >> > Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in > India > >> > is > >> > reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As > it > >> > gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for military > >> > intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then > let > >> > us > >> > observe the political engineering. > >> > > >> > Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "inder salim" > >> > To: > >> > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:33 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >> > Displacementfrom Kashmir > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind. > >> > > > >> > > forget about what i am doing, dismiss my actions as crazy or mad or > >> > > anything stupid. i will not complian, i am certainly not angry/ > >> > > > >> > > but for the sake of your own self , please answer what is is Jai > >> > > Maharashtra, > >> > > and what was the relevance when you answered to following mail ( to > >> > > Shudd's ) which ended with Jai Maharashtra, > >> > > why not Jai J&K, or Jai Tamil Nadu etc..what is your relationship > with > >> > > the slogan which is Raj's, > >> > > are you a Marathi or a Kashmiri? tell me if you can ? > >> > > > >> > > yes, your friend, Dharti ji , and Aditya ji, can help you too, > >> > > > >> > > all i want is to know why this Jai Maharashtra suddenly, when there > >> > > is so much hate in Maharashtra against North Indians, > >> > > > >> > > or you think that it only poor people from Bihar and UP who are > >> > > targeted by Raj, and you proudly join this national agenda of Raj's. > >> > > > >> > > I said, National, because you ended your mail with Jai Hind, > >> > > > >> > > so, my dear, please take a long breath, and have courage to say Jai > >> > > Maharashtra again, but add, Jai Raj as well. > >> > > > >> > > I know, you will tell me and the whole List, that it is only because > >> > > of Inder Salim, that Pawn Durani joined Shiv Sena, > >> > > > >> > > you know, there is lot of humour in it. > >> > > > >> > > so, let us laugh, > >> > > > >> > > without malice towards one and all > >> > > > >> > > love > >> > > is > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/29/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Dear All, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Apologies for what will be a lengthy posting. And those driven to > >> > >>> exasperation (like me) by the repeated monopolization of this list > by > >> > >>> matters 'Kashmiri' may not want to read this. But, those who are > >> > >>> interested in more general matters to do with the politics and > >> > >>> rhetoric of the representation of victimhood, might. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I have read with interest the ongoing discussion on the plight of > the > >> > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandit community in India. I totally agree with > >> > >>> Kirdar Singh's recent declaration of sympathy for the displaced > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community, and hope that an improvement in > conditions > >> > >>> on the ground in Kashmir and India will enable displaced Kashmir > >> > >>> Pandits to return to their homes in safety and dignity. I support > the > >> > >>> implementation of whatever practical and fair measures that can be > >> > >>> taken to ensure that this can happen. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> It needs to be recognized that there are significant voices in > >> > >>> Kashmir that insist today (both within and outside the movement > for > >> > >>> liberation from occupation) that a future for Kashmir without > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits is not worth fighting for. Those who refuse to > >> > >>> listen to, or acknowledge these voices, live in a denial of their > own > >> > >>> making. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Having said that, I need to point out that a large number of those > >> > >>> who speak for Kashmiri Pandits on this list and on other public > fora, > >> > >>> and the organizations that they represent, such as Panun Kashmir > and > >> > >>> Roots in Kashmir, are in my opinion, part of the problem, not of > the > >> > >>> solution. Their aggressive efforts to monopolize the public space > for > >> > >>> discussion of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit question is > obstructive > >> > >>> and loaded with a deeply divisive and communal agenda that > >> > >>> perpetuates a cycle of hate and prejudice.They are committed to a > >> > >>> politics of confrontation and antagonism that makes it more, not > less > >> > >>> difficult for Kashmiri Pandits to return to the Kashmir valley. > They > >> > >>> are also more than willing to be used by right wing forces such as > >> > >>> the BJP and other mainstream parties (including sections of so > called > >> > >>> secular parties such as the Congress) that want to keep the so > called > >> > >>> 'Kashmir question' alive as a means to blackmail Indians and > >> > >>> Kashmiris into submission for the sake of their agenda of an > >> > >>> extractive and authoritarian state. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> In fact, it could well be said that they have a vested interest in > >> > >>> the perpetuation of the pitiable state in which the majority of > >> > >>> displaced Kashmir Pandits find themselves in today. As long as > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits can be projected to the world as in a permanent > >> > >>> status of victimhood and abjection, organizations like Panun > Kashmir > >> > >>> (all factions) and Roots in Kashmir, and their political mentors > will > >> > >>> continue to be in business. The repeated and monotonous attempts > by > >> > >>> these individuals and the organizations and networks they > represent > >> > >>> need to be seen in this light. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> While expressing our full sympathy with the plight of displaced > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits, it is important at the same time not to lose > sight > >> > >>> of the fact that the displaced Kashmiri Pandits are one, and only > one > >> > >>> of the many displaced communities in India. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Also, it is important to keep in mind that no other displaced > >> > >>> community in India has had as much attention bestowed upon it as > have > >> > >>> displaced Kashmiri Pandits. This does not mean that there should > be > >> > >>> less attention given to the genuine and legitimate problems and > >> > >>> concerns of displaced Kashmiri Pandits, it only means the > >> > >>> monopolization of the discussion on internal displacement in India > by > >> > >>> the monotonous repetition of the woes of displaced Kashmiri > Pandits > >> > >>> does a great deal of violence to other communities that have been > >> > >>> displaced. It also prevents an effective solidarity from within > >> > >>> internally displaced communities on the question of displacement. > In > >> > >>> the long term, this can only be a disaster for the displaced > Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandit community. It is a disaster for which organizations such as > >> > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir are responsible, and many > sensible > >> > >>> displaced and other Kashmiri Pandits are beginning to see through > >> > >>> this game today. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before > these > >> > >>> organizations are exposed and isolated from within the displaced > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit communities that they currently hold in their > >> > >>> stranglehold. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The current leadership of organizations such as Panun Kashmir and > >> > >>> Roots in Kashmir, and their representatives on this list and other > >> > >>> fora have displayed a degree of 'Kashmiri Pandit exceptionalism' > that > >> > >>> needs to be seen as deeply insensitive to the plight of all > >> > >>> internally displaced communities in India, and ultimately damaging > to > >> > >>> the constituency that they claim to represent. One would have > thought > >> > >>> that the experience of speaking for and on behalf of one displaced > >> > >>> community (the Kashmiri Pandits) would have sensitized them to the > >> > >>> predicaments of other communities that share their fate. > >> > >>> Unfortunately that is not the case, neither organizations such as > >> > >>> Panun Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir, nor their sympathizers in > >> > >>> political parties such as the Bharatiya Janata Part and the Shiv > >> > >>> Sena, nor their partisans in Hindutva outfits such as the > Rashtriya > >> > >>> Svayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, nor > >> > >>> indeed the many prominent writers and intellectuals such as Arun > >> > >>> Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta, Sandhya Jain and others who have > commented > >> > >>> on the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits have ever thought it > >> > >>> necessary to make common cause with other displaced communities. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> This means that as far as most of the above are concerned, the > plight > >> > >>> of displaced communities other than Kashmiri Pandits is of no > >> > >>> consequence. My concern with the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits > >> > >>> stems from the predicament of their displacement, not because they > >> > >>> are Kashmiri Pandits. This is what makes it necessary to view > their > >> > >>> displacement and abjectness in a way that is connected to the > >> > >>> displacement and abjection of the many other communities. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> We might consider also, that of all the internally displaced > >> > >>> communities in India, it is the displaced Kashmiri Pandits who > have > >> > >>> had the maximum political leverage extracted for them and on their > >> > >>> behalf. This 'leverage' ranges from - > >> > >>> > >> > >>> a) special legislation to protect their rights to property left > >> > >>> behind by them (J&K Migrants Immovable Property: Preservation, > >> > >>> Protection and Restraint of Distress Sales Act, 1997) to a stay > on > >> > >>> court cases and civil judicial processes involving displaced > Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandits (J&K Migrants: Stay on Proceedings Act, 1997) > >> > >>> > >> > >>> to a series of > >> > >>> > >> > >>> b) administrative measures concerning health, housing, education, > ex- > >> > >>> gratia payments, stipends and employment enacted by central as > well > >> > >>> as state governments specifically with regard to displaced people > >> > >>> from Jammu and Kashmir, the overwhelming majority of whom, happen > to > >> > >>> be displaced Kashmiri Pandits. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> In fact, the state government of Jammu and Kashmir had in 1997 > >> > >>> constituted an Apex Level Comittee under the chairmanship of the > >> > >>> Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Minister to look into all > aspects > >> > >>> of the problems of displaced Kashmiri Pandits and suggest > solutions. > >> > >>> A sub committee headed by the financial commissioner (planning and > >> > >>> development) was constituted to prepare a plan for the return of > >> > >>> migrants. This sub committee finalized an Action Plan for the > >> > >>> returnand rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants involving a total > >> > >>> amount of Rs. 2589.3 crores. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> In the interim, many special relief packages have been announced > from > >> > >>> time to time from the discretionary funds of the Prime Minister > for > >> > >>> the upgradation of assistance to displaced Kashmiri Pandits living > in > >> > >>> camps in Jammu and Delhi Even the defence ministry has on occasion > >> > >>> released funds from its 'Security Related Expenses' (SRE) fund for > >> > >>> the improvement of camp infrastructure. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> [for details of all of the above, see 'Government Relief to > Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandits and their Rehabilitation' - Annexure 1, pgs 91 - 101, in > >> > >>> 'Kashmiri Pandits: Problems and Perspectives - A Dialogue for > Dignity > >> > >>> - Report of the Conference on Kashmiri Pandits held at the > Observer > >> > >>> Research Foundation, New Delhi, 2003, published by Rupa & Co. in > >> > >>> association with the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi, 2005] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I am not for a moment suggesting that these measures are adequate > to > >> > >>> the needs of the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. What I am > >> > >>> however acutely mindful of is the fact that no other internally > >> > >>> displaced community in India has had as much resources spent on > it, > >> > >>> as many special measures (legislative and executive) taken on its > >> > >>> behalf and attracted as much media attention as displaced Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandits have had. Compared to the conditions in which other > >> > >>> internally displaced communities in India live, displaced Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandits are in a far more advantageous position. This ought to > have > >> > >>> made the most vocal amongst those who claim to be their > spokepersons > >> > >>> less aggressive, less narcissistic and more compassionate. > >> > >>> Unfortunately, that is not the case. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Let us now turn to seeing exactly what the conditions of other > >> > >>> internally displaced communities in India are like. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I am going to quote extensively here from reports and facts > available > >> > >>> at the website of the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre, an > >> > >>> international rights group that concerns itself with the situation > of > >> > >>> internally displaced communities the world over. Specifically, I > am > >> > >>> looking at the webpage within this site that concerns internal > >> > >>> displacement in India. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> see - > >> > >>> > >> > >>> This is an excellent site, and is totally non-partisan. It > highlights > >> > >>> the plight of all internally-displaced communities, without biases > >> > >>> and is a good place to get to know a balanced overall picture of > >> > >>> internal displacement in India (as well as elsewhere) > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ON DISPLACEMENT FIGURES > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "The most common figure for the total number of internally > displaced > >> > >>> in India is 600,000. This figure comprises: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> · at least 250,000 people displaced from Kashmir (government > figure) > >> > >>> · 45,000 people who are still displaced along the Indian side of > the > >> > >>> Line of Control between India and Pakistan and cannot return > despite > >> > >>> the ceasefire > >> > >>> · 230,000 displaced in Assam due to the conflict between Santhals > and > >> > >>> Bodos during the 1990s > >> > >>> · 31,000 Reang displaced from Mizoram to Tripura > >> > >>> · 45,000 displaced in the state of Chhattisgarh due to insurgency" > >> > >>> > >> > >>> (these figures at the moment do not include the large numbers of > >> > >>> people displaced in the Kandhamal district of Orissa due to the > anti- > >> > >>> Christian violence there, of which the site has good reports and > >> > >>> updates.) > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The site goes on to say - > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "These groups reside in camps and are therefore relatively easy to > >> > >>> identify, but they constitute only part of the picture. The number > of > >> > >>> 600,000 does not include thousands of displaced in the > Karbi-Anglong > >> > >>> area of Assam and in Manipur where fighting between ethnic groups > and > >> > >>> counter-insurgency operations have displaced whole villages during > >> > >>> the past few years. Many are displaced temporarily and are able to > >> > >>> return after some weeks or months in displacement while an > >> > >>> undetermined number are still displaced and receive no assistance. > In > >> > >>> Tripura, as many as 100,000-300,000 people of Bengali origin are > >> > >>> estimated to have been displaced for the same reasons during the > past > >> > >>> decade, but no information exists about the return or continued > >> > >>> displacement of this group (AHRC, January 2007, "Tripura"). In the > >> > >>> state of Chhattisgarh, it is assumed that thousands have escaped > the > >> > >>> conflict between the authorities and Maoist groups by crossing > over > >> > >>> to neighbouring states, and they too are not part of the > statistics. > >> > >>> Nor does the figure take in the flight of migrant workers, as for > >> > >>> example in Assam in January 2007 when Biharis were forced to leave > in > >> > >>> a matter of days due to threats and killings by local insurgents. > The > >> > >>> current estimate should therefore be seen as representing the camp > >> > >>> population only and not those internally displaced who largely > live > >> > >>> unassisted with friends or relatives, or blend with other slum > >> > >>> residents on the outskirts of the urban areas. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> It is therefore fair to assume that the total number of displaced > is > >> > >>> far higher than the figure of 600,000, although it is not possible > to > >> > >>> give a global estimate." > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ON RELIEF CAMPS > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "The relief camps for internally displaced in the North-East are > >> > >>> reportedly in a deplorable condition. Camps for the displaced > across > >> > >>> the region are said to lack adequate shelter, food, health care, > >> > >>> education and protection. This pattern has been confirmed by > earlier > >> > >>> reports which have documented that displaced throughout the North- > >> > >>> East face severe hardship. Many of them live in public buildings > and > >> > >>> makeshift shelters, with little health care and no access to > formal > >> > >>> education (SAHRDC, March 2001). Both in Assam and in Tripura, > acute > >> > >>> food shortages and lack of health care leave internally displaced > in > >> > >>> acute hardship (MCRG, December 2006; AHRC, January 2007, p.136). > The > >> > >>> state governments say they have no money to provide relief to the > >> > >>> displaced population and that they depend on support from the > central > >> > >>> government. Furthermore, thousands of those displaced by local > >> > >>> insurgent groups in the state are reported to have received no > relief > >> > >>> at all, and are camping alongside roads in makeshift houses seven > >> > >>> years after having been displaced (Deccan Herald, 22 May 2005). In > >> > >>> Assam, it has been documented that the relief camps in the region > are > >> > >>> a major recruitment ground for trafficking of women to other > places > >> > >>> in India (BBC, 10 April 2007; IRIN, 17 May 2006). > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The same situation is reported from other relief camps for > internally > >> > >>> displaced in India. In Chhattisgarh, several reports have > documented > >> > >>> that the relief camps offer neither adequate assistance, nor > >> > >>> protection to the internally displaced. In Gujarat, there are > reports > >> > >>> of immense trauma among children and women who witnessed > atrocities > >> > >>> or were victims of the 2002 riots (IIJ, December 2003, pp.64, 67; > >> > >>> HRW, July 2003). Also, the displaced Muslim population faces acute > >> > >>> poverty as their livelihoods were largely destroyed during the > riots. > >> > >>> Continued discrimination has left most of them unemployed, with > >> > >>> female-headed households being particularly vulnerable. The relief > >> > >>> camps have inadequate basic amenities such as potable water, > sanitary > >> > >>> facilities, schools and primary healthcare centres (AHRC, 10 > January > >> > >>> 2007, pp. 19-20; Bisht, 16 January 2007; AI, January 2005, 7.6.c; > >> > >>> IIJ, December 2003). " > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ON INDIAN GOVERNMENTS POLICIES REGARDING IDPs > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "The Indian government has repeatedly expressed reservations in > >> > >>> international fora about the UN Guiding Principles on Internal > >> > >>> Displacement, which it sees as infringing its national > sovereignty. > >> > >>> India has no national IDP policy targeting conflict-induced IDPs, > and > >> > >>> the responsibility for IDP assistance and protection is frequently > >> > >>> delegated to the state governments. Furthermore, although it is > well > >> > >>> documented that Indian military, paramilitary and police forces > have > >> > >>> engaged in serious human rights abuses in conflict zones, there > have > >> > >>> been no attempts at transparent investigations or prosecutions of > >> > >>> those responsible (HRW, 12 September, 2006)." > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ON AD HOC AND DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT REGARDING DIFFERENT IDP > >> > >>> POPULATIONS > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "Although the Indian government provides support to > conflict-affected > >> > >>> populations, such assistance is mostly ad hoc and does not > correspond > >> > >>> to the needs of the displaced. State governments are assigned the > >> > >>> main responsibility to assist and rehabilitate the displaced, but > >> > >>> practices vary significantly from state to state (Nath, January > 2005, > >> > >>> p.68). > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The Indian government has been accused of discriminatory treatment > of > >> > >>> internally displaced because the displaced Kashmiri Pandit > population > >> > >>> overall receives much more support than displaced communities > >> > >>> elsewhere in the country (NNHR, 19 February 2007)." > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The Indian government has been accused of failing to adhere to the > UN > >> > >>> Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement and other > international > >> > >>> human rights standards in its response to displacement in Kashmir > and > >> > >>> Gujarat (AI, January 2005; HRW July 2003, p.38; ORF, September > 2003). > >> > >>> One survey conducted among different displaced communities in > India > >> > >>> reveals that over 55 per cent of the internally displaced do not > >> > >>> receive any support at all and only 13 per cent receive any > >> > >>> assistance from the authorities. The report also reveals that more > >> > >>> than 70 percent of the surveyed population believe that return > will > >> > >>> be impossible, a fact that underlines the need for the government > to > >> > >>> work out sustainable solutions (MCRG, December 2006, p. 16). In > >> > >>> Gujarat, human rights organisations blame local authorities as > well > >> > >>> as the state government for failing to address the needs of the > >> > >>> displaced altogether, despite promises made by the government with > >> > >>> regard to rehabilitation (IIJ, December 2003; HRW, July 2003). > >> > >>> > >> > >>> INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT DUE TO DEVELOPMENT > >> > >>> > >> > >>> "Available reports indicate that more than 21 million people are > >> > >>> internally displaced due to development projects in India. > Although > >> > >>> the tribal population only make up eight percent of the total > >> > >>> population, more than 50 per cent of the development induced > >> > >>> displaced are tribal peoples – in India also known as Scheduled > >> > >>> Tribes or Adivasis (HRW, January 2006). Ongoing research indicate > >> > >>> that between 1945-2000 the number of displaced who did not receive > >> > >>> rehabilitation could be as high as 50-60 million people." > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Clearly, all of the above indicates that the problem of displaced > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits in India needs to be seen within a larger > >> > >>> perspective. And when we take that perspective into account we > >> > >>> realize that displaced Kashmiri Pandits constitute what might be > >> > >>> called the 'creamy layer' (by virtue of the disproportionate > amount > >> > >>> of resources and attention that they obtain) of the overall > situation > >> > >>> of internal displacement in India. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Finally, a brief note on the extinction of cultures and human > >> > >>> populations, a question that has been raised by Kshmendra Kaul in > one > >> > >>> of his recent postings. I fully agree with Kshmendra, we need to > pay > >> > >>> careful attention to the problem of cultural extinction. But even > >> > >>> from that point of view, the situation of > >> > >>> > >> > >>> According to census figures, Kashmiri Pandits constituted 15 % of > the > >> > >>> Valley's population in 1941. This came down to 5 % by 1981 and 0.1 > % > >> > >>> by around 2003. While a significant proportion of the decrease of > 4.9 > >> > >>> % (registered between 1981 and today) can be attributable to the > >> > >>> political conditions pertaining since 1989-90 (the years that > Pandits > >> > >>> say there were targetted and forced to leave), to what can we > >> > >>> attribute the 10 % decline (from 15 % to 5 %) in the Kashmiri > Pandit > >> > >>> population in the Kashmir valley between 1941 and 1981? > >> > >>> > >> > >>> In those forty years, India's writ ran unchallenged in the part of > >> > >>> Kashmir held by India, and the Kashmiri Pandit elite was very > much > >> > >>> part of the governing equation, both in the Kashmir valley, as > well > >> > >>> as in India. Clearly, a significant section from within the > Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandit population (which was highly educated and considerably > >> > >>> affluent) did not, in those forty years care as much for the > >> > >>> retention of its cultural ethos in the Kashmir valley as much as > it > >> > >>> did for the betterment of the material prospects of members of the > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit community in metropolitan India and elsewhere. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> In other words, while I totally agree with Kshmendra that we are > all > >> > >>> diminished when a community as culturally and intellectually > vibrant > >> > >>> as the Kashmiri Pandits find themselves virtually effaced from > their > >> > >>> homeland, I do at the same time think that this condition requires > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandits today to do some soul searching as to why they > were > >> > >>> so eager to abandon the Kashmir valley in the years between 1947 > and > >> > >>> 1989. Had they stayed on, or retained an interest in the way in > which > >> > >>> the valley was systematically misgoverned, under the aegis of the > >> > >>> Indian occupation, then perhaps conditions might indeed have been > >> > >>> different. ' > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I still think that there is hope, no sensible person in Kashmir > (no > >> > >>> matter what their politics or affiliation) for a single moment > >> > >>> refuses to recognize that Kashmiri Pandits are part of the > cultural > >> > >>> mosaic of Kashmir. In countless conversations that I have had my > with > >> > >>> who stay in Kashmir, I have heard people state that they yearn for > >> > >>> the return of all displaced Kashmiri Pandits because Kashmir feels > >> > >>> incomplete without them. Perhaps a new generation of displaced and > >> > >>> other Kashmiri Pandits will reciprocate (over the heads of Panun > >> > >>> Kashmir and Roots in Kashmir) and re-engage with what is going on > in > >> > >>> Kashmir in a spirit of solidarity. For this to happen, there needs > to > >> > >>> be a recognition of the difficulties that everyone in Kashmir has > >> > >>> faced in the last sixty odd years, and a reversal of the cultural, > >> > >>> political and demographic abandonment of Kashmir by a section of > the > >> > >>> Kashmiri Pandit elite that began, not in 1989, but much earlier. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I hope that this helps us clarify the terms on which the > discussion > >> > >>> on internal displacement, and the internally displaced Kashmiri > >> > >>> Pandits, and the politics of perpetual victimhood can ensure, and > I > >> > >>> hope that the exploitation of a vulgar quantification of pain and > >> > >>> oppression, which I personally find deeply distasteful, may cease > on > >> > >>> this list. We do not need to prove to each other how much worse > off > >> > >>> we are in our individual capacities in order to develop an > argument > >> > >>> against oppression. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> regards, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Shuddha > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _________________________________________ > >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > > >> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From samhoodx at aol.com Mon Nov 3 19:08:49 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (samhoodx at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:38:49 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <905075.48377.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <905075.48377.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB0BD0A2E2C8A2-CB0-3CE5@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or may not mean, and why. sam -----Original Message----- From: rajendra bhat ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love. >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 19:15:00 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:45:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Kashmiri_Pandits_demand_=E2=80=98internal?= =?utf-8?q?ly_displaced_persons=E2=80=99_status?= In-Reply-To: <995a19920811011512j6dbfe12q9b6cf81e3d986699@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <755035.69140.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Aman   I hope your 'suggestion' was just a 'needle'. One more added to the many that populate this List.   Such one-liner 'needles' meant to only provoke and not contribute anything useful carry their own consequences of responses they get. Once that happens, there is a lot of whining all around.   Certainly your 'suggestion' could not have been a serious one. If it was intended to be so, it was 'moronic' indeed. Seriously moronic.   KPs believe that the erstwhile Princely State of J&K duly became a part of India through the Instrument of Accession. You may or may not agree with that position but that is what KPs believe.   With 'that position' of the KPs it would be quite moronic for anyone to suggest that they should simultaneously demand implementation of the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' which contradicts the position held by KPs.   You might see the implementation of the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' as un unfinished agenda. You might (if you do) see it as 'A Cause'  or even see it as 'The Cause' in Kashmir. That does not mean that no other 'cause' linked with 'Kashmir' can be spoken about unless simultaneously what you see as "A Cause" or "The Cause" in 'Kashmir' is not spoken about.   Instead of the 'moronic' suggestion, you could have if you wanted to and felt strongly about, questioned the validity of KPs seeking recognition as IDPs. Or, if you think that KPs are IDPs, perhaps even suggested what would be proper manner and fora in which to seek recognition as IDPs.   Since you mentioned it, I hope you know that the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' is generally evaluated as giving only 2 options; 'Join India' or 'Join Pakistan'. There is no 'Third Option'. (Generally so evaluated).   You might want to ponder over what has changed since 1947 that led Kofi Annan to doubt whether the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' can be implemented. It has been reported that the Resolutions do not fall under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and so the UN has no 'enforcement' mandate.    You might also like to think over what it was that led Musharraff to float his 'thinking out of the box' proposals while in fact disregarding but not acknowledging the discarding of the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir'.   Think. Unless, you want to come up with yet another "moronic' suggestion, in which case you do not need to do much thinking.   Kshmendra        --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: From: Aman Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced persons’ status To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated plebiscite as well. a. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By Indo-Asian > News Service on > Friday, October 31, 2008 > > Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that > the community, which fled the Kashmir > Valleyduring the peak of > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > displaced persons (IDPs). > > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the community > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is on > a two-day visit to India. > > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community we, > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had recognised > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of the > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community - should > be removed from all records and communications relating to us henceforth," > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape persecution. > > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but now we > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our own!" > fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' status. He > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > militantsthreatened us time and > again - merge with us (with political and religious > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the insurgency. > > Amongst those present from the community were varsity > students, > who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when we > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old student > activist from Delhi University. > > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian government > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > Link - > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From samhoodx at aol.com Mon Nov 3 19:15:08 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (samhoodx at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:45:08 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <8CB0BD0A2E2C8A2-CB0-3CE5@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> References: <905075.48377.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <8CB0BD0A2E2C8A2-CB0-3CE5@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> correction: the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today" should read: "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." sam -----Original Message----- From: samhoodx at aol.com To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or may not mean, and why. sam -----Original Message----- From: rajendra bhat ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love. >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > From vivek at sarai.net Mon Nov 3 19:34:29 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:34:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz Message-ID: <490F04ED.2040909@sarai.net> I know well that poetry is outlawed in quite a few republics, maybe for good reason; I know that it renders some people speechless, others angry, and still others contemptuous; but still I wanted to throw this beautiful "non-memoir" (of Czeslaw Milosz, one of the greatest poets of the twentieth century) down and see if anyone had anything to say. "He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed." Is it indeed possible to love your land deeply but despise the stupidity of nationalism, to conduct an intense lifelong search for the invisible while avoiding doctrinarian religion? Milosz, like many others, believed it was not only possible, but necessary. Vivek (from The Threepenny Review: http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/zagajewski_f08.html ) *I Can't Write a Memoir of Czeslaw Milosz* Adam Zagajewski I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz. For some reason it seems impossible to me though I had almost no trouble when I wrote about the late Zbigniew Herbert, for example (but, on the other hand, I wouldn't envisage writing this kind of essay about Joseph Brodsky either, someone I knew well). Why is it so? Was Herbert more of a "unified person"? Not really. All three of them, Milosz, Herbert, Brodsky—so different as poets and human beings—enjoyed, or suffered, the complexity of a life divided between the utmost seriousness of their work and the relative jocularity of what the other people perceived as their socially visible personalities. All three enjoyed joking, being with other people, dominating the conversation, laughing (Milosz's laugh was the loudest, the most majestic), as if needing a respite from the gravity of their vocation. And yet, again, some time ago I was able to write a few pages about Herbert's life. Was it because I met him briefly when I was almost a child, when he visited my high school in Silesia? Because his personal predicament, his illness, stamped him with a drama which was so gripping in its ferocity and made him differ even more from the music of his noble poetry than was the case with other poets and artists (who, none of them, are ever identical with their work)? Because I had the feeling that, as we were born in the same city of Lvov, some twenty years apart and only two hundred yards away from each other, I had a special claim on his fate, the way veterans from two different wars but from the same regiment may feel close, almost like members of the same tribe, the same family? I had read Milosz for many years before I met him in person. In the late Sixties and in the Seventies I didn't believe I'd ever meet him. He was then for me a legend, a unicorn, somebody living on a different planet; California was but a beautiful name to me. He belonged to a chapter of the history of Polish literature that seemed to be, seen from the landscape of my youth, as remote as the Middle Ages. He was a part of the last generation that had been born into the world of the impoverished gentry (impoverished but still very much defining themselves as gentry): he grew up in a small manor house in the Lithuanian countryside where woods, streams, and water snakes were as evident as streetcars and apartment houses in the modest, industrial city of my childhood. His Poland was so totally different from mine—it had its wings spread to the East. When he was born in 1911 he was a subject of the Russian Tsar; everything Russian, including the language which he knew so well, was familiar to him (though, as his readers well know, he was also very critical of many things Russian). I was born into a Poland that had changed its shape; like a sleeper who turns from one side to another, my country spread its arms toward the West—of course only physically, because politically it was incorporated into the Eastern bloc. I grew up in a post-German city; almost everything in the world of my childhood looked and smelled German. Cabbage seemed to be German, trees and walls recalled Bismarck, blackbirds sang with a Teutonic accent. My primary school could have belonged in any of Berlin's middle-class suburbs—its Prussian bricks were dark red like the lips of Wagnerian singers. The first radio in our apartment (a radio I worshipped—it received signals from an invisible realm, it had music, it brought strange sounds from different continents) was German and probably still nostalgic about Adolph Hitler's endless speeches. The first foreign language I had begun to learn (unwillingly), because of my grandfather, himself a Germanist, was German, too. For Milosz, who was a polyglot, learning German never existed as a possibility, especially after World War II, and German poetry never played a major role in the vast universe of his reading. There were no manor houses and water snakes in my childhood. Coal mines and chimneys played the part of woods and meadows. Aristocratic families were squatting in the smallest apartments, surviving on minimal wages. (My family, I hasten to make it clear, was not aristocratic at all.) I was supposed to be a lucky inhabitant of a classless society in which falcons and sparrows were condemned to mandatory friendship. Classless society: practically, it meant that everybody was very poor, with the exception of Party dignitaries and a few cunning merchants who were able to outwit the Party but whose sleep was rather nervous; the wealth they accumulated could have been taken away from them in one day, no solid law protected them. The language we spoke was a plebeian Polish, hard, ugly, filled with typical Communist acronyms, abbrevations, and clichés, punctuated with giggles, swear-words, and ironies—a language of slaves, good only for basic communication in a kind of a Boolean algebra of resentment. In the mid-Seventies I venerated a performance of Adam Mickiewicz's Dziady (Forefathers) staged at the Teatr Stary in Krakow; it was directed by Konrad Swinarski, who before long died tragically in an airplane accident in Syria. Soon afterwards I was told that Milosz, who had been offered the recording of the piece, commented sourly: "I can't stand the way these actors speak the Polish language." He found their pronunciation barbaric. These barbarians were my peers, my contemporaries: I knew many of them from rather benign military training sessions at the university. When they played the rebels from the Mickiewicz generation they sounded to me like my friends; I was transported back to turn-of-the-century Vilna, I was one of them. They spoke my language, a language that didn't have the sweet music of Russian nor the elegance of French. Also in the Seventies, one of my friends, a painter, Leszek Sobocki, traveled regularly to the United States (his mother was living in Los Angeles then). He was a part of a vague constellation of young artists and poets who were critical of the Communist system, though they hadn't known any other from personal experience, and who tried, being faithful to a more or less realistic aesthetic, to create art that would matter socially and politically. I belonged to the same archipelago. Sobocki, on one of his trips to L.A., mailed to Berkeley a package which contained excerpts from poetry and fiction produced by us, as well as reproductions of the paintings and prints made by him and his friends. After a while, a long letter written in response by Milosz arrived; it couldn't have been more devastating. Milosz basically dismissed the whole business of socially critical art, reducing our efforts to the well-meaning but aesthetically uninteresting and totally predictable reactions of inexperienced youngsters. He extolled "metaphysical distance," quoting Aleksander Wat's sentence on the necessity of fighting against Communism on metaphysical grounds. Which meant going to the very foundations of somebody's convictions. The letter was a cold shower for us, for me. Was Milosz right? I was of two minds even then... He gave me pause. Now I think he was mostly right, though there must have been also a bit of jealousy in his judgment, jealousy of the directness of our action; an intellectual in exile is often "metaphysical" by necessity— for him it's not a matter of free choice since he has lost access to the unmediated spectacle of life in his own country. A much younger Milosz, the Milosz of the great poems written under the Nazi occupation or right after it, was after all somebody who didn't disdain directness at all. And yet against all odds I fell in love with Milosz's poetry; its melodies seemed at times ancient, but its intellectual content couldn't have been more modern, more attractive, more complex, more intoxicating. I say I fell in love with it, which is true—still, first I had to find Milosz's poems, which was very difficult indeed. My parents had a significant library (where, it's true, fiction dwarfed poetry) but there was nothing by Milosz on the shelves. His name was erased from all the textbooks. My high school literature teacher never mentioned the name of Czeslaw Milosz. In an encyclopedia there was an entry under Milosz, but it was devoted to "Milosz Obrenovic," a brave Serbian prince, not to the author of Native Realm. Since 1951, the year of his defection, Milosz had been an outcast, a non-person. If his name did appear somewhere in print, it was frequently accompanied by the official Byzantine formula "an enemy of the People's Republic of Poland." Poor republic, having such a potent enemy! In order to be able to read his poems and his prose, I needed a special permit from the dean of my college, and even once I got it—which wasn't easy—I was not allowed to check these books out; I could only study them in one of the reading rooms in the Jagellonian Library, my Krakow alma mater's crown jewel. Each day I had to say good-night to a pile of books: they had to stay on the shelf while I walked home. I was assigned to the Professors' Reading Room, which in my eyes, the eyes of a young graduate student, added to the importance of the occasion. And there I sat for hours, discovering the writings of the enemy of our republic. Sweet hours! And they were made even sweeter by the conspiratorial conditions under which I approached Milosz's poetry. The richness of this work was overwhelming; I wasn't able right away to grasp the whole extent of the poet's achievement. I was swallowing lines of his poems like somebody given only a short moment in a magical orchard, a trespasser avidly reaching out for cherries, pears, peaches. I didn't have enough time and leisure—nor maturity, I'm afraid—to discern the different layers within his work, to understand the meandering of his thought, to define the stages of Milosz's complicated poetic evolution. I read for enchantment, not for any critical insights. I remember walking home after these sessions in the library and repeating lines from his poems—I was inebriated with them. Had I been a driver then, the police could have arrested me for driving in a state of drunkenness. But as I was only a chaotic walker, nobody could stop me; even a totalitarian state was not able to control my daydreams, my poetic fascinations, the pattern of my walking. What was it that attracted me to Milosz's poetry? Precisely everything that was different from my own experience, my own situation, from my "people's republic" language. I fell in love with the freedom with which Milosz both respected and defied the rules of poetic modernism. He was saying more than the poets I had known before—I mean he didn't keep a strict diet of purist metaphors: he was willing to tell the reader more than was accepted among contemporary poets. The reader knew that Milosz believed in something and hated something else, knew what Milosz's Weltanschauung was, and yet many of his poems were violent quarrels of the poet with himself, not at all easy to decipher—he was never doctrinaire, he never quite agreed with himself. I was also struck by a constant, energetic quest for the invisible in his poetry, a quest that arose amidst the most concrete, sensual images, not in an ascetic monastery chapel. In his oeuvre, ecstatic tones mixed with sober reflection; there was no easy way to classify this poetry—it burst taxonomies. It was not "nature poetry," it was not a "poetic meditation on History," neither was it "autobiographical lyric"—it was all of those. The ambition of this poet knew no limits; he tried to drink in the cosmos. After so much intimacy gained from the contact with his work, the shock of meeting him in person was still considerable. And the contrast between the immense, complicated territory of his powerful work and the gentleman I finally met (a seventy-year-old "smiling public man") was sizeable, too. How can a single person embody all the nuances and contradictions of a vast opus? I don't want to say that I was disappointed with Milosz's human incarnation. Not at all; I admired him, I loved him, every moment spent with him was fascinating. He was a kind friend; he wrote a most generous preface to Tremor, my first collection of poems in the United States; he showed interest in my life and work; and much later, in Krakow, we became almost neighbors, and I saw him often. And yet I know that for him I always remained a younger friend, not somebody he would confide in the way, I imagine, some from his generation might have enjoyed—or endured. I met him for the first time in June 1983, in Paris, in the spacious apartment of Leonor Fini and Konstanty Jelenski near Place des Victoires. I was then somebody who had recently left Poland and who had no idea how long his Parisian emigration would last. Konstanty Jelenski was an exile like Milosz, a brilliant critic and a great admirer of Milosz's poetry. The Milosz I met then was an elder statesman—old and yet strangely young and handsome, serene, witty, radiating an energy which made him the center of every social event; wild and tame at the same time, rescued by the renown of the Stockholm accolade from the trials of his Berkeley solitude. In January 1986 I read with him and some other famous poets during the PEN conference in New York, in the Cooper Union Hall, where a huge and enthusiastic audience that consisted mostly, it seemed, of very young poets greeted the readers—what a wonderful audience it was! After that I saw him now and then in Paris, in California, in New York, in Indianapolis... In Houston, where I taught creative writing, I introduced his reading. Later, in Krakow, I'd visit him many times in his apartment in Boguslawski Street, where he eventually settled down with Carol. I saw him walking—more and more slowly—in the Krakow Old Town, where almost everybody recognized him and looked at him with awe. Given the slow pace of his walks, the awe had enough time to be richly deployed. He was like Goethe in Weimar, though his apartment was so much more modest than the house in Frauenplan—but the centrality of his position in the small world of Krakow and Poland was never questioned. This in itself was an enormous achievement for an exile who had returned to his country after so many decades of absence. His intellectual authority was overwhelming. In the restaurants he spoke very loudly because he was hard of hearing, so loudly that it was a bit embarrassing for his friends—not much privacy in these conversations. And yet he was never diminished by his great old age. His memory was invincible, his laughter irresistible, his mind alert. In 2002 and 2003 he was enthusiastically received by American poets, very young ones and also the well-known ones, during summer conferences I organized with Edward Hirsch in Krakow; Milosz refused to participate in panels because he couldn't hear what the others said, but agreed to meet students from Houston. He gave several Q & A's, answering endless questions, embarking on long, unforgettable soliloquies (someone would always help him by repeating the question near his better ear). And he read with the other poets: I'll always remember him at a reading in the beautifully restored Krakow reform synagogue, a yarmulka on his regal head—old David speaking to his nation, feeble and yet so strong, solemn but also visibly savoring with a courteous, contented smile the din of the ovation that went on and on. There was something absolutely splendid in the way he stood up to the challenges of his last years. He never withdrew into the comfort of a well-deserved retirement. With those he loved or liked, he was tender, magnanimous, charming; he received many friends and many strangers, young or old admirers of his work, poets and critics, but when he spoke in public he retained the tone of an angry prophet. He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed. I witnessed his deep sadness after Carol died; by then he knew he would face the end of his life in an empty apartment whose every corner bore traces of Carol's tender hand and imagination. Even then, after he returned from his last trip to California, where he bade her goodbye, he was able to write the beautiful elegy for Carol, "Orpheus and Eurydice." His gift for transforming life's sorrows into poetry was intact, but he was tired and, it seems to me, maybe even a bit ashamed of always succeeding in being a magician against all odds, all catastrophes, all deaths. "What is poetry which does not save / Nations or people?" he asked in the mid-Forties. What's the use of magic that doesn't assuage despair? There was always his religious hope, his faith, sometimes dreams brought him signals of divine presence, but—we know it from the poems—despair was also one of his frequent visitors. His laughter still triumphed over the baseness of biology, but the last years made him frail. This great life had its secrets: how many times had Milosz told us in his poems that he was an "evil person"? His friends never believed it, though I think he wanted us maybe not to accept it as true it but at least to consider it more seriously. Friends are usually too well-meaning, too polite, too well-bred. They always tell you "you'll be fine," "you exaggerate"; they want to cheer you up—that's their business. Which is probably the last thing someone coping with the grave images at life's end wants to hear. The poet who decided early on that poetry was about communicating with other people, not about lofty hermeticism and language games, was dying in the silence of his solitary days and nights. One of the last humans who spoke to him in his hours of agony was an uneducated woman who took care of his small household, a wonderful person with a great heart. I like to think of it: in the vast polyphony of the almost hundred years of his dramatic existence, the ultimate sound he heard was an unschooled voice of goodness. Perhaps in this soothing voice he found something like an arch between his early idyllic childhood in the Lithuanian countryside and his closing moments; and in between there remained, bracketed out for once, the rage of modern history, the loneliness of his long exile, the violence of his struggles, of his thought, his imagination, his rebellions. I can't write a memoir of Milosz: so much was hidden in his life. Besides, he was an ecstatic poet and an ecstatic person. We'll never really know people like that. They hide their great moments of elation; they never share with others the short joys of their sudden discoveries, and the sadness when the vision fades. They thrive in solitude. With their friends they are usually correct, measured, just like everybody else. They are like a ship we sometimes see in a peaceful port: a huge immobile mass of metal covered by spots of rust, a few sailors lazily sunbathing on the deck, a blue shirt drying on a rope. One wouldn't guess that this ship was once struggling with the hurricane, barely surviving the onslaught of big waves, singing an iron song... No, I didn't know him enough. I have to return to his poems, to his essays. Adam Zagajewski, who divides his year between Krakow and Chicago, is the author of numerous books of poetry and nonfiction, including Without End and A Defense of Ardor. From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 19:58:26 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:28:26 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Hindutva=27s_terror_link_=28The_Hind?= =?iso-8859-1?q?u=29?= Message-ID: Hindutva's terror link The revelation that a militant section of the Hindutva network was behind the September 29 bomb blasts in Muslim-dominated Malegaon in Maharashtra and Modasa in Gujarat has shattered the myth propagated by the Hindutva campaign that only Islamist fundamentalism breeds terrorism. Indeed the Sangh Parivar's loaded argument has been that while all Muslims are not terrorists, all terrorists are Muslim. Saffron rabble-rousers have had no compunction in lobbing this charge at the Muslim community as a whole. While it has become almost an article of faith with the parivar to link Islamist fundamentalists with terrorism, today, with the arrests of radical Hindu activist Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur and four others, among them a retired Major, the Sangh and its affiliates find themselves warding off the same accusations. Prima facie, the case against the Sadhvi and her accomplices is serious. The Anti-Terrorism Squad of Maharashtra, which has been on the trail of Hindutva terror since 2006, has charged them under the Indian Penal Code for murder as well as under sections of the Indian Explosives Act, 1884, and the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967. The antecedents of the accused, the suspected role of former military personnel in providing training to them, and the recovery of military-grade explosive material (possibly RDX) from the blast sites, have added to the discomfiture of the BJP and the parivar, which claim to be India's only truly nationalist forces. The Sadhvi is a former activist of the BJP's student wing, the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad. She and her accomplices were associated with several right-wing Hindu extremist organisations. There is another deeply worrying aspect to the case: How did the accused lay their hands on military-grade explosives? The other question is how far the trail will go as the investigators pursue the leads provided by this lethal mix of Hindutva and terror. There is no escaping the crisis that this has set off in the parivar. The BJP's first response was to deny that any Hindutva outfit could be involved in terror. But party chief Rajnath Singh, who has been photographed with Pragya Singh Thakur, has subsequently gone on the offensive, insisting that she must be presumed innocent unless proven guilty. What all this highlights is the imperative of acknowledging that terrorism is too serious a challenge to be left to opportunistic, subjective interpretation. Combating terror is a responsibility governments and political parties across the spectrum must take up in a united and cooperative way. From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Nov 3 20:42:23 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:12:23 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] .... hypocracy ...??....Meeting on Communalism, Fascism and Democracy in Delhi University In-Reply-To: <5f4dddc70811020714n295ae346na0f0c2d7a865f5ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f4dddc70811020714n295ae346na0f0c2d7a865f5ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, The topic of the proposed meeting interestingly excludes ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits in the valley. And what is this ‘worst kind of atrocities being committed by the fascist Hindutva forces in Jammu‘ , all about .....??......This could only be described as parochialism if the allegation pertains to the recent agitation by Jammuites against the brazen intolerance by the Kashmiri pan Islamists against the use of land for temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route. And look who is going to be preaching secularism--- Prof Geelani- the man who was himself released only on technical grounds in the parliament attack case & who is a known supporter of the on going pan Islamism inspired bloody separatist violence ( in his own backyard), that has taken a heavy toll on Kashmiris. It is shear hypocrisy to talk about communalism selectively while ignoring the proponents of ‘Azadi- bara- e –Islam’ (freedom through Islam) seeking secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular India. Regards all LA > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:44:52 +0530> From: hanybabu at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Meeting on Communalism, Fascism, and Democracy in Delhi University> > *You are cordially invited for a***> > > > *PUBLIC MEETING***> > * *> > *ON***> > > > *COMMUNALISM, FASCISM AND DEMOCRACY*> > *RHETORIC AND REALITY*> > * *> > We all are witness to the series of bomb blasts across the country including> in Delhi. The series of blasts from Hyderabad, Bangalore, Jaipur, Malegaon> to Delhi have pushed the people to the brink of xenophobia and have given> teeth to the government to brazen towards a fascist policy of governance.> The Delhi blast spurt the government into action and as usual it led to the> fixed target-hunting of two young Muslims in the Muslim ghetto of Jamia> Nagar without an iota of evidence proved against the deceased so far for> their alleged 'terrorist activities', accompanied by the mysterious gunning> down of a Delhi Special Cell police officer.> > > The atrocities on Christians in Kandhamal, Orissa and the spate in the> attack on the churches and other Christian institutions in Karnataka,> Tamilnadu with the active connivance of the respective governments stand> testimony to the sanction for the Hindutva fascist activities in the recent> times—killing, raping and maiming. Worst kinds of atrocities are being> committed by the fascist Hindutva forces in Jammu, Karnataka, Maharashtra,> Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and elsewhere.> > > In view of this increasing onslaught of the right- wing Hindu> communal-fascist forces, a public meeting is going to be held in the> University of Delhi by students and teachers. We invite you to come and> participate in the meeting.> > > *Date & Time:*> > *6 November, 2008 (Thursday)*> > *11 AM*> > * *> > *VENUE:*> > *Room No.22, Arts faculty, University of> Delhi ** *> > * *> > *SPEAKERS:*> > Chair: *SAR Geelani*, Lecturer, Zakir Husain College> > *Ajit Sahi*, Sr Journalist, Tehelka> > *Rajesh Ramchandran*, Sr Journalist, *Mail Today*> > *Arjumand Ara*, Department of Urdu, University of Delhi,> > *Neshat Quaiser*, Department of Sociology, Jamia Milia> > * *> > * *> > *Contact Persons: Natasha 9873596285, Umar Khalid 9873961701, Zeyaul Haque> 9911814208, universitycommunity at gmail.com***> > > -- > University Community> > Students and Teachers of University of Delhi> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From labor at buchsenhausen.at Mon Nov 3 21:30:51 2008 From: labor at buchsenhausen.at (=?UTF-8?B?S8O8bnN0bGVyaGF1cyBCw7xjaHNlbmhhdXNlbg==?=) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:00:51 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Submissions: International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory 2009/2010 at Buchsenhausen Message-ID: <490F2033.1020301@buchsenhausen.at> Our apologies for cross-posting. *********************************************************************** KUNSTLERHAUS BUCHSENHAUSEN INTERNATIONAL FELLOWSHIP PROGRAMME FOR VISUAL ARTS AND THEORY CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS 2009/2010 *********************************************************************** Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen invites visual and media artists, art critics, theorists, and curators to apply for the three fellowship positions in 2009–2010. The period for which candidates can apply is September 7, 2009 – July 2, 2010. [The closing date for submissions is December 5, 2008 (postmark)] ----------------------------------------- [Institution] Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen is a post-graduate center for production, research, exchange in the fields of visual arts and art theory. Within the framework of the International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory, the Kunstlerhaus provides a platform that facilitates the development and production of artistic and art-theoretical projects in a critical context. At the same time, Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen offers a forum for direct exchange between professionals – artists, theoreticians, critics, and curators – from the region and abroad, as well as a point of interaction with local interested audiences. Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen is affiliated with the Tyrolean Artists' Association, the major association of visual artists from the region. Buchsenhausen brings together two programmes under one roof. On the one hand, it is the site of the International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory. On the other hand, it is the location of several studios for artists based in Tyrol, who require space for working in a professionally interesting environment. The building - the eastern wing of the Buchsenhausen Castle, built in the middle of the 17th century and situated not far from the center of the city of Innsbruck - houses nine studios and a project space. Three apartment studios are used by the fellows of the International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory. Six studios are available to artists based in Tyrol. The project and presentation space is equipped with multimedia facilities and is at the fellows' disposal. The space was designed by Atelier van Lieshout. ----------------------------------------- [International Fellowship Programme] With its Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory, Buchsenhausen actively promotes internationally relevant art production, research, and discussion in the region of Tyrol. The programme's aims are: * To improve the production of a qualified discourse on art and society in the local and global context; * To improve exchange between cultural producers in the visual arts and beyond (creating a network of experts); * To support and expand the critical, socially relevant artistic and art-theoretical production of knowledge; * To facilitate the transfer of knowledge between the art field and the public outside the art context. The programme brings together the advantages of a residency with the possibilities of a postgraduate non-university lectureship, without offering a formalized educational programme. In terms of content, the programme addresses a worldwide public made up of professionals in the fields of contemporary art, architecture, art and media theory and criticism. The fellows, selected by expert jurors, find excellent working conditions in Buchsenhausen, while the city of Innsbruck and its surrounding area offer an interesting setting in terms of its art, culture, and landscape. The grant and the residency not only allow fellows to work on their proposed projects, but also give them the chance to experiment and to reconsider their current practice. The conveyance and discussion of the fellow’s own work occurs parallel to the development of the individual projects. The public events take place in series. The focus of these series of events is determined by the respective emphases of the various fellows' works. Within the framework of this discursive format, the fellows (or their guests) can present various points in their research, open up their works-in-progress to critical discussion, interact with experts who they invite, work through content with the public, and/or try out new ways of working. For former and current fellows and their projects please visit http://buchsenhausen.at. ----------------------------------------- [Fellowship] * a grant of EUR 650/month to cover living expenses; * an individual studio for working and living, furnished with a large shared kitchen; * a production budget for the realization of the proposed project; * the possibility of inviting experts to Buchsenhausen in order to have a professional exchange; * the opportunity of an exhibition at the end of the fellowship in Buchsenhausen or at the Kunstpavillon in Innsbruck. ----------------------------------------- [Facilities] * free access to the 'labor', the project/gallery space; * free use of the available multimedia production equipment in the 'labor'; * free DSL/WLAN internet access; * professional artistic advice from the general advisors (2 terms / year); * technical advice if required. ----------------------------------------- [Eligibility] Professional visual/media artists, art theorists, art critics, and curators from all over the world are eligible for the fellowship. ----------------------------------------- [Requirements] The candidates must submit a project proposal. Work on the submitted project forms the core of each fellow's activities during his/her stay in Buchsenhausen. A description of a series of public events intended to accompany the individual work during the duration of the fellowship (four to six events) is also an integral part of the project proposal. If the application is successful, the fellows are required to specify the details of the presentation series and carry out the proposed programme. The fellows must be present in Buchsenhausen for a minimum of two thirds of the allocated fellowship time. Working knowledge of English is required. ----------------------------------------- [Selection] The selection of fellows is made by a jury of experts and based on the quality and relevance of the project proposal and the work samples submitted by the applicants. The jury includes the director of Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, a member of the board of the 'Tyrolean Artists' Association' and one external expert. The members of the jury also fulfill the role of advisors who can be consulted for their expertise at least two times during the fellowship. Jury 2009/10: Stephan Dillemuth, Annja Krautgasser, Andrei Siclodi The selection procedure occurs in two stages. In the first stage, the submitted applications are evaluated and the jury makes a shortlist of candidates who will be invited to Buchsenhausen for personal interviews. The personal interview with the jury forms the second stage. For the interview, the applicants have to come to Innsbruck to personally present their working plans and aims during the fellowship. Buchsenhausen will pay for accommodation in Innsbruck for one night, but cannot cover the costs for travel to Innsbruck. There is no legal right to be awarded a fellowship at Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen. The jury is therefore under no obligation to justify decisions. The jury's decision will be communicated in written form in January 2009 (first stage) and March 2009 (second stage). ----------------------------------------- [Application procedure] Applications must include the following documents: * the project proposal (max 2,000 words, in English or in German, 3 copies) * a visual portfolio/documentation of recent works (artists: max 2 catalogues, max 10 photos or slides, 1 DVD or 1 CD-ROM; theorists/art critics: max 3 recent writing samples) * a curriculum vitae (3 copies) * a completed application form Download the application form at http://buchsenhausen.at, complete it and send it together with the required material listed above to: Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, Ref.: "Fellowship 2009/10" Weiherburggasse 13/12 6020 Innsbruck Austria CLOSING DATE FOR SUBMISSIONS (postmark): DECEMBER 5, 2008 For additional information, please contact: office at buchsenhausen.at, phone +43 512 278627, fax -11. -- Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen Weiherburggasse 13/12 6020 Innsbruck, Austria phone +43 512 278627 fax +43 512 278627-11 office at buchsenhausen.at www.buchsenhausen.at www.kuenstlerschaft.at member of www.innsbruckcontemporary.at www.baettle.net From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 21:32:59 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:32:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811030802j6a9a2135q48887bf001617252@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan Yes why not - I am sure the subscribers of readers-list would be ready to fight the injustice done to Kashmiri Pundits. I think the only "trust-worthy" institution today is the judiciary which gives hope for everyone. So, if your cause and campaign is genuine, any sane person should support it. BUT, but, but... The problem right now is, that having persued your campaign on this list in such a brazen and loud manner, most often using insuniating and insulting tone of language, some of you (displaced Kashmiri Pundits) have killed your own cause. Secondly, many of you think that the members on this list are being paid to run a campaign against Indian nationalism and support terrorists. This is absurd. What makes you think so. Do you have a proof for this. As I have noticed, people like Shuddha take pains to collect information and references to prove a point - that's why their posts are so long. But most of you reject his logic and reasoning by saying that you don't have time to go through such long mails. Tell me, you don't have time to read it, or you don't know how to counter his argument? For a moment, consider Sarai as a court of law where you have to prove that Yasin Malik killed your brothers in Kashmir. If Yasin Malik's advocate brings a lengthy argument in his favour, will you try to counter it point by point, or simply abuse the lawyer by calling him an anti-national? Do you think the judge in the court will make his desicion in your favour simply because you are the vicitm even if you can't make logical arguments. This is a simple question for which I expect your answer. If you cannot engage people in argument logically, and continue to make a "noise" about your being victimized, how are you going to make people sympathatic towards your plight. I symthasize with you, but I get iritated with your tone and persistence. So, my suggestion to you all (inlcuding responsible people in Sarai) is to engage in a dialogue that could probably be carried on in a court of law. This doesn't mean that you need to know all the laws. It simply requires one thing: to stop doubting each other's intentions, and respect the difference of opinion. But the ultimate goal is to find resolutions to the current crisis. I doubt if there is anyone on this list who is an enemey of the country or humanism. And please stop all this non-sense about Jai some or the other. In this stupid argument about Jai-whatever, I often get reminded of a lovely movie song/bhajan (from film Guddi) that starts "Hum ko mann ki shakti dena...", the second line conveys a powerful message for all aspiring humanity-' Doosron ki jai se pehle khud ko jai karen', meaning, "Before attempting to improve others, may we improve ourselves." So, I say: jai myself regards Kirdar On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > To start with can the members of SARAI run a campaign to bring to justice > people like Yasin Malik and Bitta Karate ? Are there volunteers ? > > Will Shuddha and Shivam take the lead ? > > Pawan > > > On 11/3/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan, Aditya and others >> Sorry to butt in again, but I was wondering if you folks saw my last >> mail (titled: one more....email) in which I made a couple of >> submissions. The aim of my message (excerpts of which I am giving >> below once again) was to take this dialogue towards a more practical >> and proactive direction rather than the present status quo of >> mud-slinging match between the two parties. Can we, for some time at >> least, become more serious about this and stop doubting each other's >> intentions. And this request is also for other members of reader-list, >> such as Aarti, Inder, Shivam etc., to kindly refrain from only a >> reactionary feedback and personal attacks, and look for possible >> solutions (although I know some of you are trying hard to resolve >> things). So, to begin with, I want to ask both the parties, if they >> agree to the following statements which I had given in my last email. >> If there is anything you want to add, or disagree with, please let us >> know. Shuddha, I know you took pains to give contrary statistics about >> some of the following, and while I agree with you, I want to ignore it >> for a while, in order to bring some order to the reader-list. >> >> (1) I fully realize and SYMPATHISE with the plight the migrant >> Kashmiri Pandits have gone through. >> (2) I CONDEMN the "Muslim" extremists who have used violence and >> torture on Kashmiri Pundits. >> (3) I agree that Kashmiri Pundits have the right to return to their >> homeland, and all possible efforts should be made for their safe >> return and livelihood. >> (4) All Kashmiri Pundits persecuted and uprooted from their homeland >> should be fully compensated >> (5) Those who incurred the violence on Kashmiri Pundits should be >> punished according to the law. >> (6) I am ready to help or contribute in any way towards the betterment >> of the current plight of migrant Kashmiri Pundits, and appeal others >> to do the same. >> >> If there is anything else anyone wishes to add to the list, which is a >> sensible demand/request, I would be ready to endorse that as well. >> >> One of you said that "we'll not sit quitely until the murderers of the >> Kashmiri Pundits are not hanged in Tihar jail" or something like that. >> Fine, are you in the process of fighting a case against those >> perpetrators? Or do you want an help in that regard from the Sarai >> members. Tell us, what exactly do you want us to do. How can we help >> in bringing justice to you. >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > Yes, they are not communal, they are just blood red. >> > >> > Its sheer wastage of time to argue with people like Inder Salim. Their >> > mind >> > revolves only in one direction, you may go to the extent of twisting >> > your >> > neck, but nothing would help change such extreme hate mongers. They are >> > unfortunately Indians, with no love for the country. They are too Arty >> > just >> > for their hate campaign against the country and its citizens.. >> > >> > Jai Hind. Hai Panun Kashmir. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> hello Tara , >> >> >> >> The only party not communal is the party with leftist badge..... >> >> >> >> >> >> Bright star >> >> >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/3/08, taraprakash wrote: >> >> > >> >> > O no. Jay Maharashtra is no more Shive Sena slogan. At least they >> >> > don't >> >> > have >> >> > the monopoly. As they moved to Hindu Rashtra and with that to >> >> > parliament, >> >> > Jay Maharashtra became redundant to them and so available for new >> >> > forces >> >> to >> >> > appropriate. The already muddled political scenario is going to get >> >> messier >> >> > as the communal Shiv Sena will again join hands with the communal BJP >> >> > and >> >> > Congress and MNS, who are not communal because the term communal in >> >> > India >> >> > is >> >> > reserved for a particular kind of ideology, will form an alliance. As >> >> > it >> >> > gets messier, the political landscape will become fertile for >> >> > military >> >> > intervention. After which perhaps, we will be united again. Till then >> >> > let >> >> > us >> >> > observe the political engineering. >> >> > >> >> > Jai Dilli and Jai Florida (why not?) From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 23:05:34 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:05:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, Monday November 3 2008 An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported that she was raped by three men. Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones was brought to the stadium for the killing. Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be forcibly carried into the stadium. "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a bystander." Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and detained. None of the men accused was arrested. "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, and again demonstrates the importance of international action to investigate and document such abuses, through an international commission of inquiry." -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 23:35:55 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:35:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> Please Aditya. Stop it. This is not Islamic justice, but a perversion and atrocity of the worst kind. What are you trying to do by posting this and calling it "Islamic Justice"? Would you like me to post new-reports of the sort of caste atrocities that are perpetrated every other day, the Kairlanji killing, for instance (where incidentally the two women were raped till they died, and then raped after they died) and call it "Hindu justice"? It makes as much, or as little sense, at this... You are deeply ill Aditya. You really need to get some help. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty > > *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* > Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, > Monday November 3 2008 > > An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old > girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported > that she was raped by three men. > > Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the > southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim > Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones > was brought to the stadium for the killing. > > Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be > forcibly carried into the stadium. > > "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told > by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether > Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They > removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was > replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to > continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the > stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to > the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a > bystander." > > Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 > years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father > that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report > her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and > detained. None of the men accused was arrested. > > "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's > Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human > rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, > and again demonstrates the importance of international action to > investigate and document such abuses, through an international > commission of inquiry." > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 23:44:58 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:44:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811031014i62486603y8a5c7688a42acd6@mail.gmail.com> Its changing season. Communicable diseases are spreading like fire. Keep away!!! I need not reply to trash, Aarti. You be happy with it. Its sort of difficult to digest some open truth. Isn't it ? :-) I'm tagged ill, just because I'm a victim of a similar 'Islamic Justice'. Great going Pseudo-secular .. Okay, I stop it. Will you ? Period. On 11/3/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Please Aditya. Stop it. This is not Islamic justice, but a perversion > and atrocity of the worst kind. What are you trying to do by posting > this and calling it "Islamic Justice"? Would you like me to post > new-reports of the sort of caste atrocities that are perpetrated every > other day, the Kairlanji killing, for instance (where incidentally the > two women were raped till they died, and then raped after they died) > and call it "Hindu justice"? It makes as much, or as little sense, at > this... > > You are deeply ill Aditya. You really need to get some help. > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty > > > > *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* > > Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, > > Monday November 3 2008 > > > > An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old > > girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported > > that she was raped by three men. > > > > Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the > > southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim > > Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones > > was brought to the stadium for the killing. > > > > Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be > > forcibly carried into the stadium. > > > > "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told > > by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether > > Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They > > removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was > > replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to > > continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the > > stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to > > the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a > > bystander." > > > > Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 > > years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father > > that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report > > her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and > > detained. None of the men accused was arrested. > > > > "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's > > Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human > > rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, > > and again demonstrates the importance of international action to > > investigate and document such abuses, through an international > > commission of inquiry." > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 23:57:07 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:57:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandit migrants are internally displaced: UN Message-ID: <6353c690811031027s41eade11taf314439c14ad9b9@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiri Pandit migrants are internally displaced: UN PTI New Delhi, Nov 03: The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) has said it treats Kashmiri Pandit migrants as 'Internally Displaced Persons', a status the community has been demanding for long, but made it clear that the world body has no role to play in their case. "The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) has no role with Internally Displaced Persons in India," the world body said in response to a memorandum submitted by a Kashmiri Pandit group 'Roots in Kashmir' (RIK). In the memorandum, submitted during the visit of UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon last Friday, the Kashmiri group appealed that the world body take cognisance of the plight of Pandits who had to leave their homes in the valley. The RIK said that even 19 years after the mass exodus, over 50,000 of "Kashmiri Pandit refugees are living in pathetic conditions in uninhabitable refugee camps" and that the successive Central and state governments had failed in protecting their rights. In response, the UNHCR said its mandate is to work for refugees and "in some countries, on invitation by sovereign governments, with internally displaced populations". Making a distinction between internally displaced persons and refugees, it said it depends on whether the people have crossed an international border. "They (Kashmiri Pandits) may have left Kashmir for reasons very similar to those who become refugees, but since they have not crossed an international border, they continue to be protected by the same national government (in this case India) in a different part of the country (Jammu, Delhi, Mumbai, etc)," it said. "They have not lost the protection of the national government," the UNHCR said, adding the world body steps in when people lose the protection of their national governments, by crossing an international border. *'276,000 Afghan refugees returned this year'* More than 276,000 Afghan refugees have returned to their troubled homeland this year, most of them from Pakistan, under a voluntary repatriation programme, the UN refugee agency said today. The programme, which has wrapped up for the year ahead of winter, is the largest in the world with more then five million Afghans coming home since 2002 after the fall of the extremist Taliban regime. "The official figure for returnees to Afghanistan this year from Pakistan, Iran and what we call non-neighbouring countries is 276,700," UN High Commissioner for Refugees official Ewen McLeod told reporters. Bureau Report Link - http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=480822&sid=NAT -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 00:03:13 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:03:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: <6353c690811031014i62486603y8a5c7688a42acd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811031014i62486603y8a5c7688a42acd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811031033w5af031f2hc0dd52512c63b63c@mail.gmail.com> No Aditya. There is absolutely no similarity between you and the girl who was killed. So please spare us yet another reiteration of your victim narrative. It used to be boring, and in this avatar it is positively nauseating. I cannot believe you would attempt to use news of the death of a 13-year old at the hands of the horrendous patriarchy that undergirds all religions, to make a case for your suffering. It really is pathetic. I feel terribly sorry for you. It was in that spirit that I suggested help. There is nothing shameful about it. Perhaps your grief has clouded out all rational thought, and some sessions with someone who is trained to deal with this might help. I am not mocking you, please believe me. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Its changing season. Communicable diseases are spreading like fire. Keep > away!!! > > I need not reply to trash, Aarti. You be happy with it. Its sort of > difficult to digest some open truth. Isn't it ? :-) > > I'm tagged ill, just because I'm a victim of a similar 'Islamic Justice'. > Great going Pseudo-secular .. > > Okay, I stop it. Will you ? > > Period. > > On 11/3/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >> Please Aditya. Stop it. This is not Islamic justice, but a perversion >> and atrocity of the worst kind. What are you trying to do by posting >> this and calling it "Islamic Justice"? Would you like me to post >> new-reports of the sort of caste atrocities that are perpetrated every >> other day, the Kairlanji killing, for instance (where incidentally the >> two women were raped till they died, and then raped after they died) >> and call it "Hindu justice"? It makes as much, or as little sense, at >> this... >> >> You are deeply ill Aditya. You really need to get some help. >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty >> > >> > *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* >> > Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, >> > Monday November 3 2008 >> > >> > An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old >> > girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported >> > that she was raped by three men. >> > >> > Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the >> > southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim >> > Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones >> > was brought to the stadium for the killing. >> > >> > Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be >> > forcibly carried into the stadium. >> > >> > "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told >> > by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether >> > Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They >> > removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was >> > replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to >> > continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the >> > stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to >> > the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a >> > bystander." >> > >> > Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 >> > years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father >> > that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report >> > her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and >> > detained. None of the men accused was arrested. >> > >> > "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's >> > Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human >> > rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, >> > and again demonstrates the importance of international action to >> > investigate and document such abuses, through an international >> > commission of inquiry." >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> > Cell - +91-9873297834 >> > >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 00:50:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:50:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811031033w5af031f2hc0dd52512c63b63c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811031014i62486603y8a5c7688a42acd6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031033w5af031f2hc0dd52512c63b63c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811031120u64d51798qa1f7cc23e49028fe@mail.gmail.com> for those who do not still believe in islamic terrorism would end up as its victims one day. Pawan jai maharashtra .jai panun kashmir .jai hind From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 00:28:18 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:28:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811031033w5af031f2hc0dd52512c63b63c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811031014i62486603y8a5c7688a42acd6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031033w5af031f2hc0dd52512c63b63c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811031058x7e306a84i9b7dfe414f45c246@mail.gmail.com> Maybe you utilise this time to read and study and know more about 'Kashmir' AND 'Kashmiri Pandits', about which you have just no information. But, Yes, you have opinion on everything, just as per your ideology. I just forwarded yet another unfortunate incident of 'Islamic way of Justice'. What is so new about it ? Its amusing to see you cry like a baby on it. And, its worse that you compare 'my case' always with such 'Islamic Terrorism' acts and tilt it differently. I had just said, you call me 'ill' because I'm a victim and have suffered. Isn't that so true ? You won't understand my plight, or my grief. You are pathetic with emotions. Also, Things like Justice and Human Rights only ring a bell in your head when people of a particular community are the sufferers..or are they really always ? You are truly a great Politician. Elections round the corner...aren't they ? If a Guardian News Item makes you scream..God knows what will real 'Islamic Justice' do to you. You better be prepared lady. The world isn't so soft. We became targets and are facing the brunt still, who knows tomorrow...its someone close to you.. Psychologist won't be of much help then.. I'm honest..! On 11/4/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > No Aditya. There is absolutely no similarity between you and the girl > who was killed. So please spare us yet another reiteration of your > victim narrative. It used to be boring, and in this avatar it is > positively nauseating. I cannot believe you would attempt to use news > of the death of a 13-year old at the hands of the horrendous > patriarchy that undergirds all religions, to make a case for your > suffering. It really is pathetic. I feel terribly sorry for you. It > was in that spirit that I suggested help. There is nothing shameful > about it. Perhaps your grief has clouded out all rational thought, and > some sessions with someone who is trained to deal with this might > help. I am not mocking you, please believe me. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > Its changing season. Communicable diseases are spreading like fire. Keep > > away!!! > > > > I need not reply to trash, Aarti. You be happy with it. Its sort of > > difficult to digest some open truth. Isn't it ? :-) > > > > I'm tagged ill, just because I'm a victim of a similar 'Islamic Justice'. > > Great going Pseudo-secular .. > > > > Okay, I stop it. Will you ? > > > > Period. > > > > On 11/3/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> > >> Please Aditya. Stop it. This is not Islamic justice, but a perversion > >> and atrocity of the worst kind. What are you trying to do by posting > >> this and calling it "Islamic Justice"? Would you like me to post > >> new-reports of the sort of caste atrocities that are perpetrated every > >> other day, the Kairlanji killing, for instance (where incidentally the > >> two women were raped till they died, and then raped after they died) > >> and call it "Hindu justice"? It makes as much, or as little sense, at > >> this... > >> > >> You are deeply ill Aditya. You really need to get some help. > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty > >> > > >> > *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* > >> > Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, > >> > Monday November 3 2008 > >> > > >> > An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old > >> > girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported > >> > that she was raped by three men. > >> > > >> > Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the > >> > southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim > >> > Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones > >> > was brought to the stadium for the killing. > >> > > >> > Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be > >> > forcibly carried into the stadium. > >> > > >> > "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told > >> > by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether > >> > Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They > >> > removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was > >> > replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to > >> > continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the > >> > stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to > >> > the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a > >> > bystander." > >> > > >> > Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 > >> > years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father > >> > that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report > >> > her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and > >> > detained. None of the men accused was arrested. > >> > > >> > "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's > >> > Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human > >> > rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, > >> > and again demonstrates the importance of international action to > >> > investigate and document such abuses, through an international > >> > commission of inquiry." > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > > >> > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > >> > Cell - +91-9873297834 > >> > > >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 01:11:09 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 01:11:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandit migrants are internally displaced: UN In-Reply-To: <6353c690811031027s41eade11taf314439c14ad9b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811031027s41eade11taf314439c14ad9b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811031141t604975ddud6fd642882d5e8d3@mail.gmail.com> thank u roots in kashmir On 11/3/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandit migrants are internally displaced: UN > PTI > > New Delhi, Nov 03: The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) has said > it treats Kashmiri Pandit migrants as 'Internally Displaced Persons', a > status the community has been demanding for long, but made it clear that the > world body has no role to play in their case. > > "The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) has no role with Internally Displaced Persons > in India," the world body said in response to a memorandum submitted by a > Kashmiri Pandit group 'Roots in Kashmir' (RIK). > > In the memorandum, submitted during the visit of UN Secretary General Ban Ki > Moon last Friday, the Kashmiri group appealed that the world body take > cognisance of the plight of Pandits who had to leave their homes in the > valley. > > The RIK said that even 19 years after the mass exodus, over 50,000 of > "Kashmiri Pandit refugees are living in pathetic conditions in uninhabitable > refugee camps" and that the successive Central and state governments had > failed in protecting their rights. > > In response, the UNHCR said its mandate is to work for refugees and "in some > countries, on invitation by sovereign governments, with internally displaced > populations". > > Making a distinction between internally displaced persons and refugees, it > said it depends on whether the people have crossed an international border. > > "They (Kashmiri Pandits) may have left Kashmir for reasons very similar to > those who become refugees, but since they have not crossed an international > border, they continue to be protected by the same national government (in > this case India) in a different part of the country (Jammu, Delhi, Mumbai, > etc)," it said. > > "They have not lost the protection of the national government," the UNHCR > said, adding the world body steps in when people lose the protection of > their national governments, by crossing an international border. > > *'276,000 Afghan refugees returned this year'* > > More than 276,000 Afghan refugees have returned to their troubled homeland > this year, most of them from Pakistan, under a voluntary repatriation > programme, the UN refugee agency said today. > > The programme, which has wrapped up for the year ahead of winter, is the > largest in the world with more then five million Afghans coming home since > 2002 after the fall of the extremist Taliban regime. > > "The official figure for returnees to Afghanistan this year from Pakistan, > Iran and what we call non-neighbouring countries is 276,700," UN High > Commissioner for Refugees official Ewen McLeod told reporters. > > Bureau Report > > Link - http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=480822&sid=NAT > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 04:40:12 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 18:10:12 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice References: <6353c690811030935r778f688x8ab08cda4017e3ec@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F264EFBCC854D5FA359575705253877@tara> Hi Arti and all. Islam may not support it, however, It is Islamic justice in the sense that the law, written or otherwise, has been in place in the name of Islam and no Islamic authority in the country has challenged it enough in the country that people turn against in large number. This case in Somalia is not the only example of this kind of pervert justice carried out in the name of Islam. In certain countries, perhaps Pakistan included, a raped victim cannot get justice unless the act has been watched by an adult man and he is willing to be a witness in the court. May be someone from Pakistan on the list will throw some light on the law regarding rape victims in Pakistan. I believe over the time the law has changed in favor of the victims. Saudi Arabia and Iran have very recently punished women who complained of being raped. Tal-e-ban regime used to make a public spectacle of punishing the adulterous women, some of those stoned were supposedly rape victims. I think that You should not mind forwarding articles highlighting evils of Hinduism, but you should not do it just because someone said something against Islam. In other words, please do not make this list a mere battle ground between Islamic and Hinduist discourses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aarti Sethi" To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Islamic justice > Please Aditya. Stop it. This is not Islamic justice, but a perversion > and atrocity of the worst kind. What are you trying to do by posting > this and calling it "Islamic Justice"? Would you like me to post > new-reports of the sort of caste atrocities that are perpetrated every > other day, the Kairlanji killing, for instance (where incidentally the > two women were raped till they died, and then raped after they died) > and call it "Hindu justice"? It makes as much, or as little sense, at > this... > > You are deeply ill Aditya. You really need to get some help. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty >> >> *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* >> Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, >> Monday November 3 2008 >> >> An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old >> girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported >> that she was raped by three men. >> >> Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the >> southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim >> Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones >> was brought to the stadium for the killing. >> >> Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be >> forcibly carried into the stadium. >> >> "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told >> by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether >> Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They >> removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was >> replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to >> continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the >> stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to >> the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a >> bystander." >> >> Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 >> years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father >> that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report >> her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and >> detained. None of the men accused was arrested. >> >> "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's >> Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human >> rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, >> and again demonstrates the importance of international action to >> investigate and document such abuses, through an international >> commission of inquiry." >> >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 10:12:04 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 10:12:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811031134r13d6856vbcd3b633e92b5776@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811030802j6a9a2135q48887bf001617252@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811031134r13d6856vbcd3b633e92b5776@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811032042x6d53c604w8e99a53f885a505a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your private mail to the list. Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto helping their cause any way. But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. Jai myself/thyself Kirdar On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > kirdar, > > when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a > point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . > > shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic > terrorism can identify.. > > till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident > islamic terrorism terrorism . > > I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid > he suffers because of it. > > Pawan durani > jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 10:45:05 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:15:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <69035.75219.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Uncle Sam,        It is not the nudity that you understand. You should watch INDER mails and LINK.   It's not that I(we) said something , you(inder) said something.  What the people on the List mean is Inder should visit some mosque of his choce(liberty has given),  and implement HIS CRAZYNESS/MADNESS practically as he did it in on a "IDOl" .  Photograph it and make available to the all users. Let everybody know, if it hurts everybody(including him) or not.   Forget about Nudity, Idol worshipping, Manners in Society for time being, Peoples feelilngs/reaction is accountable.  I hope it is clister clear now..   Dhatri. --- On Mon, 11/3/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote: From: samhoodx at aol.com Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:15 PM correction: the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today" should read: "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." sam -----Original Message----- From: samhoodx at aol.com To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or may not mean, and why. sam -----Original Message----- From: rajendra bhat .... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love. >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 10:47:33 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:17:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz In-Reply-To: <490F04ED.2040909@sarai.net> Message-ID: <748783.19648.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Narayanan  this is beautiful! --- On Mon, 11/3/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: From: Vivek Narayanan Subject: [Reader-list] I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:34 PM I know well that poetry is outlawed in quite a few republics, maybe for good reason; I know that it renders some people speechless, others angry, and still others contemptuous; but still I wanted to throw this beautiful "non-memoir" (of Czeslaw Milosz, one of the greatest poets of the twentieth century) down and see if anyone had anything to say. "He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed." Is it indeed possible to love your land deeply but despise the stupidity of nationalism, to conduct an intense lifelong search for the invisible while avoiding doctrinarian religion? Milosz, like many others, believed it was not only possible, but necessary. Vivek (from The Threepenny Review: http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/zagajewski_f08.html ) *I Can't Write a Memoir of Czeslaw Milosz* Adam Zagajewski I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz. For some reason it seems impossible to me though I had almost no trouble when I wrote about the late Zbigniew Herbert, for example (but, on the other hand, I wouldn't envisage writing this kind of essay about Joseph Brodsky either, someone I knew well). Why is it so? Was Herbert more of a "unified person"? Not really. All three of them, Milosz, Herbert, Brodsky—so different as poets and human beings—enjoyed, or suffered, the complexity of a life divided between the utmost seriousness of their work and the relative jocularity of what the other people perceived as their socially visible personalities. All three enjoyed joking, being with other people, dominating the conversation, laughing (Milosz's laugh was the loudest, the most majestic), as if needing a respite from the gravity of their vocation. And yet, again, some time ago I was able to write a few pages about Herbert's life. Was it because I met him briefly when I was almost a child, when he visited my high school in Silesia? Because his personal predicament, his illness, stamped him with a drama which was so gripping in its ferocity and made him differ even more from the music of his noble poetry than was the case with other poets and artists (who, none of them, are ever identical with their work)? Because I had the feeling that, as we were born in the same city of Lvov, some twenty years apart and only two hundred yards away from each other, I had a special claim on his fate, the way veterans from two different wars but from the same regiment may feel close, almost like members of the same tribe, the same family? I had read Milosz for many years before I met him in person. In the late Sixties and in the Seventies I didn't believe I'd ever meet him. He was then for me a legend, a unicorn, somebody living on a different planet; California was but a beautiful name to me. He belonged to a chapter of the history of Polish literature that seemed to be, seen from the landscape of my youth, as remote as the Middle Ages. He was a part of the last generation that had been born into the world of the impoverished gentry (impoverished but still very much defining themselves as gentry): he grew up in a small manor house in the Lithuanian countryside where woods, streams, and water snakes were as evident as streetcars and apartment houses in the modest, industrial city of my childhood. His Poland was so totally different from mine—it had its wings spread to the East. When he was born in 1911 he was a subject of the Russian Tsar; everything Russian, including the language which he knew so well, was familiar to him (though, as his readers well know, he was also very critical of many things Russian). I was born into a Poland that had changed its shape; like a sleeper who turns from one side to another, my country spread its arms toward the West—of course only physically, because politically it was incorporated into the Eastern bloc. I grew up in a post-German city; almost everything in the world of my childhood looked and smelled German. Cabbage seemed to be German, trees and walls recalled Bismarck, blackbirds sang with a Teutonic accent. My primary school could have belonged in any of Berlin's middle-class suburbs—its Prussian bricks were dark red like the lips of Wagnerian singers. The first radio in our apartment (a radio I worshipped—it received signals from an invisible realm, it had music, it brought strange sounds from different continents) was German and probably still nostalgic about Adolph Hitler's endless speeches. The first foreign language I had begun to learn (unwillingly), because of my grandfather, himself a Germanist, was German, too. For Milosz, who was a polyglot, learning German never existed as a possibility, especially after World War II, and German poetry never played a major role in the vast universe of his reading. There were no manor houses and water snakes in my childhood. Coal mines and chimneys played the part of woods and meadows. Aristocratic families were squatting in the smallest apartments, surviving on minimal wages. (My family, I hasten to make it clear, was not aristocratic at all.) I was supposed to be a lucky inhabitant of a classless society in which falcons and sparrows were condemned to mandatory friendship. Classless society: practically, it meant that everybody was very poor, with the exception of Party dignitaries and a few cunning merchants who were able to outwit the Party but whose sleep was rather nervous; the wealth they accumulated could have been taken away from them in one day, no solid law protected them. The language we spoke was a plebeian Polish, hard, ugly, filled with typical Communist acronyms, abbrevations, and clichés, punctuated with giggles, swear-words, and ironies—a language of slaves, good only for basic communication in a kind of a Boolean algebra of resentment. In the mid-Seventies I venerated a performance of Adam Mickiewicz's Dziady (Forefathers) staged at the Teatr Stary in Krakow; it was directed by Konrad Swinarski, who before long died tragically in an airplane accident in Syria. Soon afterwards I was told that Milosz, who had been offered the recording of the piece, commented sourly: "I can't stand the way these actors speak the Polish language." He found their pronunciation barbaric. These barbarians were my peers, my contemporaries: I knew many of them from rather benign military training sessions at the university. When they played the rebels from the Mickiewicz generation they sounded to me like my friends; I was transported back to turn-of-the-century Vilna, I was one of them. They spoke my language, a language that didn't have the sweet music of Russian nor the elegance of French. Also in the Seventies, one of my friends, a painter, Leszek Sobocki, traveled regularly to the United States (his mother was living in Los Angeles then). He was a part of a vague constellation of young artists and poets who were critical of the Communist system, though they hadn't known any other from personal experience, and who tried, being faithful to a more or less realistic aesthetic, to create art that would matter socially and politically. I belonged to the same archipelago. Sobocki, on one of his trips to L.A., mailed to Berkeley a package which contained excerpts from poetry and fiction produced by us, as well as reproductions of the paintings and prints made by him and his friends. After a while, a long letter written in response by Milosz arrived; it couldn't have been more devastating. Milosz basically dismissed the whole business of socially critical art, reducing our efforts to the well-meaning but aesthetically uninteresting and totally predictable reactions of inexperienced youngsters. He extolled "metaphysical distance," quoting Aleksander Wat's sentence on the necessity of fighting against Communism on metaphysical grounds. Which meant going to the very foundations of somebody's convictions. The letter was a cold shower for us, for me. Was Milosz right? I was of two minds even then... He gave me pause. Now I think he was mostly right, though there must have been also a bit of jealousy in his judgment, jealousy of the directness of our action; an intellectual in exile is often "metaphysical" by necessity— for him it's not a matter of free choice since he has lost access to the unmediated spectacle of life in his own country. A much younger Milosz, the Milosz of the great poems written under the Nazi occupation or right after it, was after all somebody who didn't disdain directness at all. And yet against all odds I fell in love with Milosz's poetry; its melodies seemed at times ancient, but its intellectual content couldn't have been more modern, more attractive, more complex, more intoxicating. I say I fell in love with it, which is true—still, first I had to find Milosz's poems, which was very difficult indeed. My parents had a significant library (where, it's true, fiction dwarfed poetry) but there was nothing by Milosz on the shelves. His name was erased from all the textbooks. My high school literature teacher never mentioned the name of Czeslaw Milosz. In an encyclopedia there was an entry under Milosz, but it was devoted to "Milosz Obrenovic," a brave Serbian prince, not to the author of Native Realm. Since 1951, the year of his defection, Milosz had been an outcast, a non-person. If his name did appear somewhere in print, it was frequently accompanied by the official Byzantine formula "an enemy of the People's Republic of Poland." Poor republic, having such a potent enemy! In order to be able to read his poems and his prose, I needed a special permit from the dean of my college, and even once I got it—which wasn't easy—I was not allowed to check these books out; I could only study them in one of the reading rooms in the Jagellonian Library, my Krakow alma mater's crown jewel. Each day I had to say good-night to a pile of books: they had to stay on the shelf while I walked home. I was assigned to the Professors' Reading Room, which in my eyes, the eyes of a young graduate student, added to the importance of the occasion. And there I sat for hours, discovering the writings of the enemy of our republic. Sweet hours! And they were made even sweeter by the conspiratorial conditions under which I approached Milosz's poetry. The richness of this work was overwhelming; I wasn't able right away to grasp the whole extent of the poet's achievement. I was swallowing lines of his poems like somebody given only a short moment in a magical orchard, a trespasser avidly reaching out for cherries, pears, peaches. I didn't have enough time and leisure—nor maturity, I'm afraid—to discern the different layers within his work, to understand the meandering of his thought, to define the stages of Milosz's complicated poetic evolution. I read for enchantment, not for any critical insights. I remember walking home after these sessions in the library and repeating lines from his poems—I was inebriated with them. Had I been a driver then, the police could have arrested me for driving in a state of drunkenness. But as I was only a chaotic walker, nobody could stop me; even a totalitarian state was not able to control my daydreams, my poetic fascinations, the pattern of my walking. What was it that attracted me to Milosz's poetry? Precisely everything that was different from my own experience, my own situation, from my "people's republic" language. I fell in love with the freedom with which Milosz both respected and defied the rules of poetic modernism. He was saying more than the poets I had known before—I mean he didn't keep a strict diet of purist metaphors: he was willing to tell the reader more than was accepted among contemporary poets. The reader knew that Milosz believed in something and hated something else, knew what Milosz's Weltanschauung was, and yet many of his poems were violent quarrels of the poet with himself, not at all easy to decipher—he was never doctrinaire, he never quite agreed with himself. I was also struck by a constant, energetic quest for the invisible in his poetry, a quest that arose amidst the most concrete, sensual images, not in an ascetic monastery chapel. In his oeuvre, ecstatic tones mixed with sober reflection; there was no easy way to classify this poetry—it burst taxonomies. It was not "nature poetry," it was not a "poetic meditation on History," neither was it "autobiographical lyric"—it was all of those. The ambition of this poet knew no limits; he tried to drink in the cosmos. After so much intimacy gained from the contact with his work, the shock of meeting him in person was still considerable. And the contrast between the immense, complicated territory of his powerful work and the gentleman I finally met (a seventy-year-old "smiling public man") was sizeable, too. How can a single person embody all the nuances and contradictions of a vast opus? I don't want to say that I was disappointed with Milosz's human incarnation. Not at all; I admired him, I loved him, every moment spent with him was fascinating. He was a kind friend; he wrote a most generous preface to Tremor, my first collection of poems in the United States; he showed interest in my life and work; and much later, in Krakow, we became almost neighbors, and I saw him often. And yet I know that for him I always remained a younger friend, not somebody he would confide in the way, I imagine, some from his generation might have enjoyed—or endured. I met him for the first time in June 1983, in Paris, in the spacious apartment of Leonor Fini and Konstanty Jelenski near Place des Victoires. I was then somebody who had recently left Poland and who had no idea how long his Parisian emigration would last. Konstanty Jelenski was an exile like Milosz, a brilliant critic and a great admirer of Milosz's poetry. The Milosz I met then was an elder statesman—old and yet strangely young and handsome, serene, witty, radiating an energy which made him the center of every social event; wild and tame at the same time, rescued by the renown of the Stockholm accolade from the trials of his Berkeley solitude. In January 1986 I read with him and some other famous poets during the PEN conference in New York, in the Cooper Union Hall, where a huge and enthusiastic audience that consisted mostly, it seemed, of very young poets greeted the readers—what a wonderful audience it was! After that I saw him now and then in Paris, in California, in New York, in Indianapolis... In Houston, where I taught creative writing, I introduced his reading. Later, in Krakow, I'd visit him many times in his apartment in Boguslawski Street, where he eventually settled down with Carol. I saw him walking—more and more slowly—in the Krakow Old Town, where almost everybody recognized him and looked at him with awe. Given the slow pace of his walks, the awe had enough time to be richly deployed. He was like Goethe in Weimar, though his apartment was so much more modest than the house in Frauenplan—but the centrality of his position in the small world of Krakow and Poland was never questioned. This in itself was an enormous achievement for an exile who had returned to his country after so many decades of absence. His intellectual authority was overwhelming. In the restaurants he spoke very loudly because he was hard of hearing, so loudly that it was a bit embarrassing for his friends—not much privacy in these conversations. And yet he was never diminished by his great old age. His memory was invincible, his laughter irresistible, his mind alert. In 2002 and 2003 he was enthusiastically received by American poets, very young ones and also the well-known ones, during summer conferences I organized with Edward Hirsch in Krakow; Milosz refused to participate in panels because he couldn't hear what the others said, but agreed to meet students from Houston. He gave several Q & A's, answering endless questions, embarking on long, unforgettable soliloquies (someone would always help him by repeating the question near his better ear). And he read with the other poets: I'll always remember him at a reading in the beautifully restored Krakow reform synagogue, a yarmulka on his regal head—old David speaking to his nation, feeble and yet so strong, solemn but also visibly savoring with a courteous, contented smile the din of the ovation that went on and on. There was something absolutely splendid in the way he stood up to the challenges of his last years. He never withdrew into the comfort of a well-deserved retirement. With those he loved or liked, he was tender, magnanimous, charming; he received many friends and many strangers, young or old admirers of his work, poets and critics, but when he spoke in public he retained the tone of an angry prophet. He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed. I witnessed his deep sadness after Carol died; by then he knew he would face the end of his life in an empty apartment whose every corner bore traces of Carol's tender hand and imagination. Even then, after he returned from his last trip to California, where he bade her goodbye, he was able to write the beautiful elegy for Carol, "Orpheus and Eurydice." His gift for transforming life's sorrows into poetry was intact, but he was tired and, it seems to me, maybe even a bit ashamed of always succeeding in being a magician against all odds, all catastrophes, all deaths. "What is poetry which does not save / Nations or people?" he asked in the mid-Forties. What's the use of magic that doesn't assuage despair? There was always his religious hope, his faith, sometimes dreams brought him signals of divine presence, but—we know it from the poems—despair was also one of his frequent visitors. His laughter still triumphed over the baseness of biology, but the last years made him frail. This great life had its secrets: how many times had Milosz told us in his poems that he was an "evil person"? His friends never believed it, though I think he wanted us maybe not to accept it as true it but at least to consider it more seriously. Friends are usually too well-meaning, too polite, too well-bred. They always tell you "you'll be fine," "you exaggerate"; they want to cheer you up—that's their business. Which is probably the last thing someone coping with the grave images at life's end wants to hear. The poet who decided early on that poetry was about communicating with other people, not about lofty hermeticism and language games, was dying in the silence of his solitary days and nights. One of the last humans who spoke to him in his hours of agony was an uneducated woman who took care of his small household, a wonderful person with a great heart. I like to think of it: in the vast polyphony of the almost hundred years of his dramatic existence, the ultimate sound he heard was an unschooled voice of goodness. Perhaps in this soothing voice he found something like an arch between his early idyllic childhood in the Lithuanian countryside and his closing moments; and in between there remained, bracketed out for once, the rage of modern history, the loneliness of his long exile, the violence of his struggles, of his thought, his imagination, his rebellions. I can't write a memoir of Milosz: so much was hidden in his life. Besides, he was an ecstatic poet and an ecstatic person. We'll never really know people like that. They hide their great moments of elation; they never share with others the short joys of their sudden discoveries, and the sadness when the vision fades. They thrive in solitude. With their friends they are usually correct, measured, just like everybody else. They are like a ship we sometimes see in a peaceful port: a huge immobile mass of metal covered by spots of rust, a few sailors lazily sunbathing on the deck, a blue shirt drying on a rope. One wouldn't guess that this ship was once struggling with the hurricane, barely surviving the onslaught of big waves, singing an iron song... No, I didn't know him enough. I have to return to his poems, to his essays. Adam Zagajewski, who divides his year between Krakow and Chicago, is the author of numerous books of poetry and nonfiction, including Without End and A Defense of Ardor. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Tue Nov 4 12:19:36 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:19:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz In-Reply-To: <748783.19648.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <748783.19648.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <490FF080.7040205@sarai.net> Thank you for responding, Dhatri. I am curious to know if you had any further comment / explication in relation to the particular quote from the piece I highlighted: "He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed." With regards, Vivek we wi wrote: > Narayanan this is beautiful! > > --- On *Mon, 11/3/08, Vivek Narayanan //* wrote: > > From: Vivek Narayanan > Subject: [Reader-list] I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:34 PM > > I know well that poetry is outlawed in quite a few republics, maybe for > good reason; I know that it renders some people speechless, others > angry, and still others contemptuous; > > but still I wanted to throw this beautiful "non-memoir" (of Czeslaw > Milosz, one of the greatest poets of the twentieth century) down and see > if anyone had anything to say. > > "He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended > the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at > the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated > anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a > religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles > and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex > creed." > > Is it indeed possible to love your land deeply but despise the stupidity > of nationalism, to conduct an intense lifelong search for the invisible > while avoiding doctrinarian religion? Milosz, like many others, believed > it was not only possible, but necessary. > > Vivek > > (from The Threepenny Review: > http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/zagajewski_f08.html ) > > *I Can't Write a Memoir of Czeslaw Milosz* > > Adam Zagajewski > > > I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz. For some reason it seems > impossible to me though I had almost no trouble when I wrote about the > late Zbigniew Herbert, for example (but, on the other hand, I wouldn't > envisage writing this kind of essay about Joseph Brodsky either, someone > I knew well). Why is it so? Was Herbert more of a "unified person"? > Not > really. All three of them, Milosz, Herbert, Brodsky—so different as > poets and human beings—enjoyed, or suffered, the complexity of a life > divided between the utmost seriousness of their work and the relative > jocularity of what the other people perceived as their socially visible > personalities. All three enjoyed joking, being with other people, > dominating the conversation, laughing (Milosz's laugh was the loudest, > the most majestic), as if needing a respite from the gravity of their > vocation. > > And yet, again, some time ago I was able to write a few pages about > Herbert's life. Was it because I met him briefly when I was almost a > child, when he visited my high school in Silesia? Because his personal > predicament, his illness, stamped him with a drama which was so gripping > in its ferocity and made him differ even more from the music of his > noble poetry than was the case with other poets and artists (who, none > of them, are ever identical with their work)? Because I had the feeling > that, as we were born in the same city of Lvov, some twenty years apart > and only two hundred yards away from each other, I had a special claim > on his fate, the way veterans from two different wars but from the same > regiment may feel close, almost like members of the same tribe, the same > family? > > I had read Milosz for many years before I met him in person. In the late > Sixties and in the Seventies I didn't believe I'd ever meet him. He was > > then for me a legend, a unicorn, somebody living on a different planet; > California was but a beautiful name to me. He belonged to a chapter of > the history of Polish literature that seemed to be, seen from the > landscape of my youth, as remote as the Middle Ages. He was a part of > the last generation that had been born into the world of the > impoverished gentry (impoverished but still very much defining > themselves as gentry): he grew up in a small manor house in the > Lithuanian countryside where woods, streams, and water snakes were as > evident as streetcars and apartment houses in the modest, industrial > city of my childhood. His Poland was so totally different from mine—it > had its wings spread to the East. When he was born in 1911 he was a > subject of the Russian Tsar; everything Russian, including the language > which he knew so well, was familiar to him (though, as his readers well > know, he was also very critical of many things Russian). I was born into > a Poland that had changed its shape; like a sleeper who turns from one > side to another, my country spread its arms toward the West—of course > only physically, because politically it was incorporated into the > Eastern bloc. > > I grew up in a post-German city; almost everything in the world of my > childhood looked and smelled German. Cabbage seemed to be German, trees > and walls recalled Bismarck, blackbirds sang with a Teutonic accent. My > primary school could have belonged in any of Berlin's middle-class > suburbs—its Prussian bricks were dark red like the lips of Wagnerian > singers. The first radio in our apartment (a radio I worshipped—it > received signals from an invisible realm, it had music, it brought > strange sounds from different continents) was German and probably still > nostalgic about Adolph Hitler's endless speeches. The first foreign > language I had begun to learn (unwillingly), because of my grandfather, > himself a Germanist, was German, too. For Milosz, who was a polyglot, > learning German never existed as a possibility, especially after World > War II, and German poetry never played a major role in the vast universe > of his reading. > > There were no manor houses and water snakes in my childhood. Coal mines > and chimneys played the part of woods and meadows. Aristocratic families > were squatting in the smallest apartments, surviving on minimal wages. > (My family, I hasten to make it clear, was not aristocratic at all.) I > was supposed to be a lucky inhabitant of a classless society in which > falcons and sparrows were condemned to mandatory friendship. Classless > society: practically, it meant that everybody was very poor, with the > exception of Party dignitaries and a few cunning merchants who were able > to outwit the Party but whose sleep was rather nervous; the wealth they > accumulated could have been taken away from them in one day, no solid > law protected them. The language we spoke was a plebeian Polish, hard, > ugly, filled with typical Communist acronyms, abbrevations, and clichés, > punctuated with giggles, swear-words, and ironies—a language of slaves, > good only for basic communication in a kind of a Boolean algebra of > resentment. In the mid-Seventies I venerated a performance of Adam > Mickiewicz's Dziady (Forefathers) staged at the Teatr Stary in Krakow; > it was directed by Konrad Swinarski, who before long died tragically in > an airplane accident in Syria. Soon afterwards I was told that Milosz, > who had been offered the recording of the piece, commented sourly: "I > can't stand the way these actors speak the Polish language." He found > their pronunciation barbaric. These barbarians were my peers, my > contemporaries: I knew many of them from rather benign military training > sessions at the university. When they played the rebels from the > Mickiewicz generation they sounded to me like my friends; I was > transported back to turn-of-the-century Vilna, I was one of them. They > spoke my language, a language that didn't have the sweet music of > Russian nor the elegance of French. > > Also in the Seventies, one of my friends, a painter, Leszek Sobocki, > traveled regularly to the United States (his mother was living in Los > Angeles then). He was a part of a vague constellation of young artists > and poets who were critical of the Communist system, though they hadn't > known any other from personal experience, and who tried, being faithful > to a more or less realistic aesthetic, to create art that would matter > socially and politically. I belonged to the same archipelago. Sobocki, > on one of his trips to L.A., mailed to Berkeley a package which > contained excerpts from poetry and fiction produced by us, as well as > reproductions of the paintings and prints made by him and his friends. > After a while, a long letter written in response by Milosz arrived; it > couldn't have been more devastating. Milosz basically dismissed the > whole business of socially critical art, reducing our efforts to the > well-meaning but aesthetically uninteresting and totally predictable > reactions of inexperienced youngsters. He extolled "metaphysical > distance," quoting Aleksander Wat's sentence on the necessity of > fighting against Communism on metaphysical grounds. Which meant going to > the very foundations of somebody's convictions. The letter was a cold > shower for us, for me. Was Milosz right? I was of two minds even then... > He gave me pause. Now I think he was mostly right, though there must > have been also a bit of jealousy in his judgment, jealousy of the > directness of our action; an intellectual in exile is often > "metaphysical" by necessity— for him it's not a matter of free > choice > since he has lost access to the unmediated spectacle of life in his own > country. A much younger Milosz, the Milosz of the great poems written > under the Nazi occupation or right after it, was after all somebody who > didn't disdain directness at all. > > And yet against all odds I fell in love with Milosz's poetry; its > melodies seemed at times ancient, but its intellectual content couldn't > have been more modern, more attractive, more complex, more intoxicating. > I say I fell in love with it, which is true—still, first I had to find > Milosz's poems, which was very difficult indeed. My parents had a > significant library (where, it's true, fiction dwarfed poetry) but there > was nothing by Milosz on the shelves. His name was erased from all the > textbooks. My high school literature teacher never mentioned the name of > Czeslaw Milosz. In an encyclopedia there was an entry under Milosz, but > it was devoted to "Milosz Obrenovic," a brave Serbian prince, not to > the > author of Native Realm. Since 1951, the year of his defection, Milosz > had been an outcast, a non-person. If his name did appear somewhere in > print, it was frequently accompanied by the official Byzantine formula > "an enemy of the People's Republic of Poland." Poor republic, > having > such a potent enemy! > > In order to be able to read his poems and his prose, I needed a special > permit from the dean of my college, and even once I got it—which wasn't > easy—I was not allowed to check these books out; I could only study them > in one of the reading rooms in the Jagellonian Library, my Krakow alma > mater's crown jewel. Each day I had to say good-night to a pile of > books: they had to stay on the shelf while I walked home. I was assigned > to the Professors' Reading Room, which in my eyes, the eyes of a young > graduate student, added to the importance of the occasion. And there I > sat for hours, discovering the writings of the enemy of our republic. > Sweet hours! And they were made even sweeter by the conspiratorial > conditions under which I approached Milosz's poetry. > > The richness of this work was overwhelming; I wasn't able right away to > grasp the whole extent of the poet's achievement. I was swallowing lines > of his poems like somebody given only a short moment in a magical > orchard, a trespasser avidly reaching out for cherries, pears, peaches. > I didn't have enough time and leisure—nor maturity, I'm afraid—to > discern the different layers within his work, to understand the > meandering of his thought, to define the stages of Milosz's complicated > poetic evolution. I read for enchantment, not for any critical insights. > I remember walking home after these sessions in the library and > repeating lines from his poems—I was inebriated with them. Had I been a > driver then, the police could have arrested me for driving in a state of > drunkenness. But as I was only a chaotic walker, nobody could stop me; > even a totalitarian state was not able to control my daydreams, my > poetic fascinations, the pattern of my walking. > > What was it that attracted me to Milosz's poetry? Precisely everything > that was different from my own experience, my own situation, from my > "people's republic" language. I fell in love with the freedom > with which > Milosz both respected and defied the rules of poetic modernism. He was > saying more than the poets I had known before—I mean he didn't keep a > strict diet of purist metaphors: he was willing to tell the reader more > than was accepted among contemporary poets. The reader knew that Milosz > believed in something and hated something else, knew what Milosz's > Weltanschauung was, and yet many of his poems were violent quarrels of > the poet with himself, not at all easy to decipher—he was never > doctrinaire, he never quite agreed with himself. I was also struck by a > constant, energetic quest for the invisible in his poetry, a quest that > arose amidst the most concrete, sensual images, not in an ascetic > monastery chapel. In his oeuvre, ecstatic tones mixed with sober > reflection; there was no easy way to classify this poetry—it burst > taxonomies. It was not "nature poetry," it was not a "poetic > meditation > on History," neither was it "autobiographical lyric"—it was > all of > those. The ambition of this poet knew no limits; he tried to drink in > the cosmos. > > After so much intimacy gained from the contact with his work, the shock > of meeting him in person was still considerable. And the contrast > between the immense, complicated territory of his powerful work and the > gentleman I finally met (a seventy-year-old "smiling public man") was > > sizeable, too. How can a single person embody all the nuances and > contradictions of a vast opus? I don't want to say that I was > disappointed with Milosz's human incarnation. Not at all; I admired him, > I loved him, every moment spent with him was fascinating. He was a kind > friend; he wrote a most generous preface to Tremor, my first collection > of poems in the United States; he showed interest in my life and work; > and much later, in Krakow, we became almost neighbors, and I saw him > often. And yet I know that for him I always remained a younger friend, > not somebody he would confide in the way, I imagine, some from his > generation might have enjoyed—or endured. > > I met him for the first time in June 1983, in Paris, in the spacious > apartment of Leonor Fini and Konstanty Jelenski near Place des > Victoires. I was then somebody who had recently left Poland and who had > no idea how long his Parisian emigration would last. Konstanty Jelenski > was an exile like Milosz, a brilliant critic and a great admirer of > Milosz's poetry. The Milosz I met then was an elder statesman—old and > yet strangely young and handsome, serene, witty, radiating an energy > which made him the center of every social event; wild and tame at the > same time, rescued by the renown of the Stockholm accolade from the > trials of his Berkeley solitude. > > In January 1986 I read with him and some other famous poets during the > PEN conference in New York, in the Cooper Union Hall, where a huge and > enthusiastic audience that consisted mostly, it seemed, of very young > poets greeted the readers—what a wonderful audience it was! After that I > saw him now and then in Paris, in California, in New York, in > Indianapolis... In Houston, where I taught creative writing, I > introduced his reading. > > Later, in Krakow, I'd visit him many times in his apartment in > Boguslawski Street, where he eventually settled down with Carol. I saw > him walking—more and more slowly—in the Krakow Old Town, where almost > everybody recognized him and looked at him with awe. Given the slow pace > of his walks, the awe had enough time to be richly deployed. He was like > Goethe in Weimar, though his apartment was so much more modest than the > house in Frauenplan—but the centrality of his position in the small > world of Krakow and Poland was never questioned. This in itself was an > enormous achievement for an exile who had returned to his country after > so many decades of absence. His intellectual authority was overwhelming. > In the restaurants he spoke very loudly because he was hard of hearing, > so loudly that it was a bit embarrassing for his friends—not much > privacy in these conversations. And yet he was never diminished by his > great old age. His memory was invincible, his laughter irresistible, his > mind alert. > > In 2002 and 2003 he was enthusiastically received by American poets, > very young ones and also the well-known ones, during summer conferences > I organized with Edward Hirsch in Krakow; Milosz refused to participate > in panels because he couldn't hear what the others said, but agreed to > meet students from Houston. He gave several Q & A's, answering endless > questions, embarking on long, unforgettable soliloquies (someone would > always help him by repeating the question near his better ear). And he > read with the other poets: I'll always remember him at a reading in the > beautifully restored Krakow reform synagogue, a yarmulka on his regal > head—old David speaking to his nation, feeble and yet so strong, solemn > but also visibly savoring with a courteous, contented smile the din of > the ovation that went on and on. > > There was something absolutely splendid in the way he stood up to the > challenges of his last years. He never withdrew into the comfort of a > well-deserved retirement. With those he loved or liked, he was tender, > magnanimous, charming; he received many friends and many strangers, > young or old admirers of his work, poets and critics, but when he spoke > in public he retained the tone of an angry prophet. He had always > attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary > homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time > he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, > narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but > he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach > his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed. > > I witnessed his deep sadness after Carol died; by then he knew he would > face the end of his life in an empty apartment whose every corner bore > traces of Carol's tender hand and imagination. Even then, after he > returned from his last trip to California, where he bade her goodbye, he > was able to write the beautiful elegy for Carol, "Orpheus and > Eurydice." > His gift for transforming life's sorrows into poetry was intact, but he > was tired and, it seems to me, maybe even a bit ashamed of always > succeeding in being a magician against all odds, all catastrophes, all > deaths. "What is poetry which does not save / Nations or people?" he > asked in the mid-Forties. What's the use of magic that doesn't assuage > despair? There was always his religious hope, his faith, sometimes > dreams brought him signals of divine presence, but—we know it from the > poems—despair was also one of his frequent visitors. His laughter still > triumphed over the baseness of biology, but the last years made him frail. > > This great life had its secrets: how many times had Milosz told us in > his poems that he was an "evil person"? His friends never believed > it, > though I think he wanted us maybe not to accept it as true it but at > least to consider it more seriously. Friends are usually too > well-meaning, too polite, too well-bred. They always tell you "you'll > be > fine," "you exaggerate"; they want to cheer you up—that's > their > business. Which is probably the last thing someone coping with the grave > images at life's end wants to hear. The poet who decided early on that > poetry was about communicating with other people, not about lofty > hermeticism and language games, was dying in the silence of his solitary > days and nights. One of the last humans who spoke to him in his hours of > agony was an uneducated woman who took care of his small household, a > wonderful person with a great heart. I like to think of it: in the vast > polyphony of the almost hundred years of his dramatic existence, the > ultimate sound he heard was an unschooled voice of goodness. Perhaps in > this soothing voice he found something like an arch between his early > idyllic childhood in the Lithuanian countryside and his closing moments; > and in between there remained, bracketed out for once, the rage of > modern history, the loneliness of his long exile, the violence of his > struggles, of his thought, his imagination, his rebellions. > > I can't write a memoir of Milosz: so much was hidden in his life. > Besides, he was an ecstatic poet and an ecstatic person. We'll never > really know people like that. They hide their great moments of elation; > they never share with others the short joys of their sudden discoveries, > and the sadness when the vision fades. They thrive in solitude. With > their friends they are usually correct, measured, just like everybody > else. They are like a ship we sometimes see in a peaceful port: a huge > immobile mass of metal covered by spots of rust, a few sailors lazily > sunbathing on the deck, a blue shirt drying on a rope. One wouldn't > guess that this ship was once struggling with the hurricane, barely > surviving the onslaught of big waves, singing an iron song... No, I > didn't know him enough. I have to return to his poems, to his essays. > > > > Adam Zagajewski, who divides his year between Krakow and Chicago, is the > author of numerous books of poetry and nonfiction, including Without End > and A Defense of Ardor. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Nov 4 14:35:40 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:35:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: YJA - here is what Hon'ble Justice Rekha Sharma had to say in her judgement References: <659937df0811040043k4fef36dmccb0959d2a4e4ad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: from: yamunajiye at gmail.com WP (C) No. 7506 of 2007 And WP (C) No. 7507 of 2007 This judgement relates to a river which once flowed majestically but is now gasping for breath. If this continues, time is not far off when this gift of Gods, will die an unnatural death getting buried beneath the layers of silt. If no urgent remedial measures are taken Yamuna may exist only in books. It is this fear an anxiety that has made me pen these lines. During arguments it was common case of the parties that development cannot be divorced from environmental issues and that development has to be compatible with the need to preserve, project rather improve environment. I think I am right in saying that it was at no point in dispute that development has to co-exist and not endanger or cause irreversible damage to nature. I therefore need not go into any lengthy discussion on this aspect of the matter or on what the courts have said, for they have also not said anything different. What then is disputed ? The dispute is with regard to the application of the above said well delineated, well defined principles to the land in question located in Pocket III Phase I in Zone ‘O’. Development projects have been undertaken in that area. The petitioners says that the entire construction activity is on the riverbed itself which will destroy not only Yamuna but materially harm the entire ecologically sensitive area. The respondents, on the other than, assert that the land in question is not riverbed and that in any case, the entire construction work has been undertaken after due deliberation and after obtaining required clearance from the authorities concerned and that all remedial measures have been taken. Is the construction on the “river bed”? My noble brother has gone at great lengths to fathom meaning and import of the term “river bed” and after having undertaken that exercise has, in his wisdom left to an “Expert Committee” to decide as to whether the site in question is on the “river bed” or not. I will revert to this “expert committee” a little later. Let me first deal with the question as to whether the site in question is on the “river bed” or not and if not, to what effect. Let us first have a look at the NEERI Report of 2005. If we look at it carefully we will find that it described the land in question as “river bed”. It says on page 2.8 of the report that “Being centrally situated and considering pressures on the land, the land in river bed is precious.” Not only this, my learned brother has also noticed in paragraph 65 of his judgement and I quote: “………..The MoEF has constituted independent Expert Committees called the Expert Appraisal Committee………. for seeking approval for the construction of the Commonwealth Games Village in the river bed. ……….The Expert Appraisal Committee applied the precautionary principle to emphasise that the proposed work should not be of a permanent nature………. and the river bed may be restored to the river. My brother has also noted in paragraph 66, the Environmental Clearance for the project, accorded on 14.12.2006, on the following condition: “Since the design of the proposed structure is yet to be made, so far as possible the work should not be of a permanent nature……… the proposals should proceed with the assumption that the river bed may have to be restored to the river”. (emphasis supplied) I feel, with respect that in view of what has been noticed above, no doubt is left that the site in question is on the river bed. However, to my mind, even if it be taken that the site in question is not river bed, yet the urbanization of the site and colossal construction, under way may yet adversely affect the environment, the river and ecology. That it can be so finds support from the following culled out from the Master Plan. “Apart from being the main source of water supply for Delhi, it is one of major sources of ground water recharge. However, over the years, rapid urbanization, encroachment on the river banks, over exploitation of natural resources/water and serious deficiencies and backlog in sanitation and waste waster management services have resulted in the dwindling of water flow in the river and extremely high levels of pollution in the form of BoD”. During arguments, the respondents had heavily relied upon on the judgement of the Supreme Court in U.P. Employees Federation Case relating to construction of Akshardham Temple. The order passed by the Supreme Court would go to show that the larger issue now raised before us were apparently not raised or gone into. In any case, in view of the facts and circumstances of the present case and the great many disputed issued raised before us, the said judgement, with respect, cannot be treated as a binding precedent. The Reports of the NEERI on which respondents had leaned heavily do not paint this body in bright colours. Rather, they show how it has changed colours and has not bothered to contradict itself. In its report of 2005 first it spoke against “heavy capital investment” and pleaded for “no large development activities except horticultural operations and provisions of green linkages with the adjoining and existing built up areas to maintain ecological balance and relief to the public”. It also spoke of “maintenance of existing vegetation” and warned against encroachments, building activity and “urban sprawl” and in the very next breath it recommended release of vast chunk of land “for urban activities”. Of course, my learned brother has also noticed the subsequent report of the NEERI and its affidavit dated January 29, 2008 and, with respect, I join him when he says “we are constrained to observe that his affidavit is the result of some of the loopholes in its earlier reports which were picked up by the petitioners and pointed out to the court. From an institution of this repute, it was not expected that report of this kind would be submitted.” It is not only NEERI, it is the Ministry of Environment and Forest also which is equally guilty of changing its position. The proposal of DDA (who happens to be respondent No. 5) for seeking approval for the construction of the Commonwealth Games on the river bed came up for appraisal by the Expert Appraisal Committee constituted by the said Ministry. It is important to note that the Committee visited the site and only thereafter, and obviously after due deliberations emphasized that the proposed construction should not be of a permanent nature and the structures raised should rather be dismantable. Adopting those recommendations and agreeing with them, the Ministry accorded clearance on 14.12.2006 observing as under: “Since the design of the proposed structures is yet to be made, so far as possible the work should not be of a permanent nature. It should be possible to take this point into consideration and adopt dismantable structures. Unless detailed studies lead to the conclusion that the proposed structures can be left behind permanently, the proposals should proceed with the assumption that the river bed may have to be restored to the river.” And within a span of few days that report was ignored, the condition reproduced above was given a go-bye and the Delhi Development Authority was signaled to go ahead with the construction works “permanent or temporary” subject to certain conditions of little significant. In any case, the DDA had no difficulty in obtaining report from CWPRS, Pune which too, on closer scrutiny appears to be dubious. It is a sad story of men in haste fiddling with major issues and resultantly playing havoc. The significance and importance of the Commonwealth Games is not lost on any one. Even the petitioners acknowledged it. The parties also acknowledge the importance of economic development and the concept of sustainable development. Even the ambit and scope of public trust doctrine was not under challenge nor doubted and therefore, I need not deal with all these aspects. It may be stated even at the risk of repetition that what was disputed was the impact of the building activity on the Yamuna, its environment, ecology and the long term damage which, it was stated by the petitioners was pregnant with disaster. As would be borne out from the above neither NEERI nor Ministry of Environment and Forest nor DDA can be said to have acted fairly and objectively. Their hands appear to be tainted. The issues involved are of great significance and importance and they require dispassionate, honest and thorough examination by experts of eminence and impeccable integrity. Since my learned brother also feels the same, we stand on the same pedestal. I do feel that constitution of a Committee of Experts would help and with regard to that also I stand by the side of my learned brother. It is a matter of great relief that Dr. R.K. Pachauri has agreed to be the Chairman of the said Committee. However, my learned brother is silent about the constitution and other salient aspects concerning the Committee which need to be spelled out in detail. Who will appoint the Committee ? Who will be its members ? What exactly would be the scope of enquiry by the Committee ? Can the Committee give interim report ? And to whom ? Similarly to whom it is to give the final report ? And to what effect ? These and other issues need to be dealt with. I therefore issue the following directions: (i) A Committee of Experts would be constituted by the Court under the Chairmanship of Dr. R.K. Pachauri comprising of four members. Each party is directed to propose two names for its members within three weeks. Out of the proposed, the court shall appoint members in consultation with the Chairman. The Chairman, may, at his discretion, associate any non-members/expert/s. The Committee shall undertake study of the constructions, whether proposed or completed or underway, on the land in dispute and report within four months of its constitution as to whether they or any of them, whether in whole or in part affect or are likely to affect adversely, in any manner, the ecology of Yamuna river bed or the ecology of Yamuna river, its ground water recharge ability or violate in any manner, the public trust doctrine. The Committee shall give reasonable opportunity of hearing to the parties before formulating its reports. The parties shall extend required assistance to the Committee. (ii) On submission of the report, any of the parties may apply to the Court for any further direction. The court may also suo-motu issue further direction/s as may be deemed proper after notice to the parties. All constructions whether complete or incomplete or proposed to be constructed shall be subject to such directions as may be made by the court on the receipt of the report / interim report of the Committee of Experts. (iii) If during the aforementioned study of the Committee of Experts, the Committee finds that any construction, complete or incomplete or proposed to be constructed adversely affects or is likely to affect adversely the ecology of the river or its flood plain or is not in accordance with the development plans as proposed and sanctioned keeping in view the conditions on which environmental clearances had been obtained and immediate remedial action is required, it may make an interim report to the court. On receipt of such report, the Court may suo-motu or on an application by any of the parties, pass such order/direction/s as it may deem appropriate. (iv) All third party interests created or proposed to be created on the land in dispute or in the constructions made or proposed to be made shall be subject to the directions as may be made by the court on the submission of reports of the Committee of Experts. It may be noticed here that we were told during the hearing that construction at a massive scale was being carried out. We had made amply clear that if despite the pendency of the writ-petitions the respondents or any other person were raising constructions or were creating third party interests they were doing so at their own peril. I reiterate that. (v) The Central Government shall forthwith and not later than three weeks provide all working facilities including adequate office space and required staff to the Committee of Experts. (vi) The directions with regard to the honorarium to the Chairman and the Members of the Committee of Experts and the expenses shall be issued later in consultation with the Chairman of the Committee of Experts. From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 14:50:44 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:50:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <73eb60090811032042x6d53c604w8e99a53f885a505a@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811030802j6a9a2135q48887bf001617252@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811031134r13d6856vbcd3b633e92b5776@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811032042x6d53c604w8e99a53f885a505a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kirdar, With all due respect, I honestly have nothing to prove to anybody least all of all to the swarms of suffering KPs that populate this list. I do not see why i should denounce this or that, make statements in favour of this or that. I have been called terrorist-sympathizer and much worse on this list, it bothers me not in the least. I am not a public person, I do not hold public office, I am not a leader of any movement, no one's life or work depends on me. I have therefore not taken any thekka to pledge my support for the cause of the day. I write about what I feel like and respond to what I feel like. Unlike Aditya and Pawan who seem to suffer from a form of what could be called "social Tourette's syndrome" (look it up kids), and need constant and ever-increasing affirmation of their worth by thrusting their wounded battered selves into our weary consciousnesses, I have no such insecurities and fantasies. I appreciate your attempting to resolve this, but you will soon realise that the wounds on poor Aditya and Pawan are about the size of a meteor's crater which mere human intervention can never hope to fill. We would need Lord Krishna himself to chuck an inverted Govardhan in as band-aid. Good luck in your ministering efforts regardless. best Aarti On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Kirdar wrote: > Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation > between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your > private mail to the list. > > Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, > but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you > denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you > do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words > because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides > have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only > victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this > list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto > helping their cause any way. > > But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and > come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have > decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even > news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are > interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let > the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. > > Jai myself/thyself > > Kirdar > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> kirdar, >> >> when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a >> point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . >> >> shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic >> terrorism can identify.. >> >> till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident >> islamic terrorism terrorism . >> >> I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid >> he suffers because of it. >> >> Pawan durani >> jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 14:56:25 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:56:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <69035.75219.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> <69035.75219.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811040126m51eec8dpb3f3465c25722a6c@mail.gmail.com> Yes Dhatri it is indeed clister clear. Just as clister as everything else you say. Regardless, why should Inder pose nude according to your demands? I don't think this is a service he is offering just as yet. Where he chooses to photograph himself in what attire is really nothing to do with you. And what is this strange fetish you have about nudity? I think we have all had this conversation before and we have all told you that we find nothing shameful or unclean about the human body, so why does nudity upset you so much? On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:45 AM, we wi wrote: > Uncle Sam, > > It is not the nudity that you understand. You should watch INDER mails and LINK. It's not that I(we) said something , you(inder) said something. What the people on the List mean is Inder should visit some mosque of his choce(liberty has given), and implement HIS CRAZYNESS/MADNESS practically as he did it in on a "IDOl" . Photograph it and make available to the all users. Let everybody know, if it hurts everybody(including him) or not. > > Forget about Nudity, Idol worshipping, Manners in Society for time being, Peoples feelilngs/reaction is accountable. I hope it is clister clear now.. > > Dhatri. > > --- On Mon, 11/3/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote: > > From: samhoodx at aol.com > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:15 PM > > correction: > > the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the > same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple > > today" should read: > > "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a > temple > today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." > > sam > > > -----Original Message----- > From: samhoodx at aol.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am > Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > > hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i > am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. > he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu > deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you > know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might > add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there > are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as > konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, > temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated > elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not > mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in > a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or > may not mean, and why. > > > sam > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rajendra bhat > > > .... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at > martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture > was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? > > > Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, > of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining > hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be > civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places > of worship.! > > > Lot more love. > > > > > > > >>> From: inder salim > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >>> Displacement from Kashmir > >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >>> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> well, dear pawan > >>> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra > slogan, > >>> it is beyond my comprehension. > >>> > >>> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how > >>> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. > >>> > >>> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu > >>> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say > >>> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening > >>> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene > involved > >>> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any > >>> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this > >>> question? > >>> > >>> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our > >>> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. > >>> > >>> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join > >>> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. > >>> > >>> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, > >>> > >>> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a > >>> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the > workers > >>> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. > >>> > >>> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are > ambigous > >>> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and > >>> profoundity at the same time. > >>> > >>> lot of love > >>> and regards > >>> is > >>> > >>> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside > >>> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from > >>> all this > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani > > >>> wrote: > >>> > IInder, > >>> > > >>> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > >>> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in > Martand > >>> Temple. > >>> > > >>> > Pawan > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 14:56:59 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:56:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811030802j6a9a2135q48887bf001617252@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811031134r13d6856vbcd3b633e92b5776@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811032042x6d53c604w8e99a53f885a505a@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811040126r6b3225c5xfb8cb9ba06df6c27@mail.gmail.com> Aarti, This list belongs as much to me as it does to any leftist from JNU. When would i hear you sing ? Pawan On 11/4/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Kirdar, > > With all due respect, I honestly have nothing to prove to anybody > least all of all to the swarms of suffering KPs that populate this > list. I do not see why i should denounce this or that, make statements > in favour of this or that. I have been called terrorist-sympathizer > and much worse on this list, it bothers me not in the least. I am not > a public person, I do not hold public office, I am not a leader of any > movement, no one's life or work depends on me. I have therefore not > taken any thekka to pledge my support for the cause of the day. I > write about what I feel like and respond to what I feel like. > > Unlike Aditya and Pawan who seem to suffer from a form of what could > be called "social Tourette's syndrome" (look it up kids), and need > constant and ever-increasing affirmation of their worth by thrusting > their wounded battered selves into our weary consciousnesses, I have > no such insecurities and fantasies. > > I appreciate your attempting to resolve this, but you will soon > realise that the wounds on poor Aditya and Pawan are about the size of > a meteor's crater which mere human intervention can never hope to > fill. We would need Lord Krishna himself to chuck an inverted > Govardhan in as band-aid. > > Good luck in your ministering efforts regardless. > > best > Aarti > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Kirdar wrote: > > Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation > > between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your > > private mail to the list. > > > > Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, > > but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you > > denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you > > do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words > > because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides > > have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only > > victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this > > list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto > > helping their cause any way. > > > > But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and > > come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have > > decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even > > news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are > > interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let > > the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. > > > > Jai myself/thyself > > > > Kirdar > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > >> kirdar, > >> > >> when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a > >> point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . > >> > >> shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic > >> terrorism can identify.. > >> > >> till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident > >> islamic terrorism terrorism . > >> > >> I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid > >> he suffers because of it. > >> > >> Pawan durani > >> jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 15:21:32 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:21:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090811030136x5b2e648fq928e3c0e5561cd66@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811030515s79d93a61ge3bd4c324d690585@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811030802j6a9a2135q48887bf001617252@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811031134r13d6856vbcd3b633e92b5776@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811032042x6d53c604w8e99a53f885a505a@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811040151l6f2372bfy8954c20114bd894c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti Thanks for your reply. Its fine if you don't want to make any pledge or submission - I know you have not taken any thekka to support or not support anyone. But maybe you could try to ignore some the mails. I think ignoring some mails will work best. What I am suggesting on Sarai list (with no pretensions on my part) is to declare a ceasefire of sorts, where we stop (for the time being) making personal attacks, and come down for negotiations. Let us try it. So, I HEREBY DECLARE AN INDEFINITE CEASEFIRE on all personal attacks (including JNU/non-JNU jokes), and come to the point. If you have to make a personal attack then send a personal mail, or call up the person, or visit his/her house. Don't make personal attacks on the list, please. Kirdar On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Kirdar, > > With all due respect, I honestly have nothing to prove to anybody > least all of all to the swarms of suffering KPs that populate this > list. I do not see why i should denounce this or that, make statements > in favour of this or that. I have been called terrorist-sympathizer > and much worse on this list, it bothers me not in the least. I am not > a public person, I do not hold public office, I am not a leader of any > movement, no one's life or work depends on me. I have therefore not > taken any thekka to pledge my support for the cause of the day. I > write about what I feel like and respond to what I feel like. > > Unlike Aditya and Pawan who seem to suffer from a form of what could > be called "social Tourette's syndrome" (look it up kids), and need > constant and ever-increasing affirmation of their worth by thrusting > their wounded battered selves into our weary consciousnesses, I have > no such insecurities and fantasies. > > I appreciate your attempting to resolve this, but you will soon > realise that the wounds on poor Aditya and Pawan are about the size of > a meteor's crater which mere human intervention can never hope to > fill. We would need Lord Krishna himself to chuck an inverted > Govardhan in as band-aid. > > Good luck in your ministering efforts regardless. > > best > Aarti > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Kirdar wrote: >> Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation >> between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your >> private mail to the list. >> >> Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, >> but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you >> denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you >> do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words >> because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides >> have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only >> victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this >> list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto >> helping their cause any way. >> >> But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and >> come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have >> decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even >> news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are >> interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let >> the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. >> >> Jai myself/thyself >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> kirdar, >>> >>> when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a >>> point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . >>> >>> shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic >>> terrorism can identify.. >>> >>> till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident >>> islamic terrorism terrorism . >>> >>> I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid >>> he suffers because of it. >>> >>> Pawan durani >>> jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Nov 4 15:48:34 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:48:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Online Art Journal Message-ID: dear All, A new online journal on contemporary culture and art has been launched by e-flux. Do have a look. http://e-flux.com/journal warmly Jeebesh From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 16:30:11 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 03:00:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <349833.1224.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Aarti,   Nothing personnel ! but   >>>"why should Inder pose nude according to your >>>demands?"   There is no demand as such you feel so heavely,  It is the only(practical crazy mad way) way INDER should answer not with mailing stuff.  take light.   >>>"I don't think this is a service he is offering just as yet. >>>Where he chooses to photograph himself in what attire is really >>>nothing to do with you. And what is this strange fetish you have about >>>nudity? "   Who asked you to think and dream about?  By your below mail I understood that you are aware of krishn leelas.  BHAGAVATAM hmm great, read it more carefully.  then do a bhajan   "Govardhan giridhar krishn kannaiah .............. "   with a folded hands and closed eyes   somebody will do SHODASHOPACHAR POOJA(16 ways to worship a god) like archanam....sindhur,lighting,sambran... to  nivedan.   Achyutam, Keshavam, RAma, NArAyanam, Krshna, DAmodaram, VAsudevam, Harim, Shridharam, Madhavam, GopikAh-Vallabham, JAnaki-NAyakam, Ramchandram bhaje!   Mantrapushpam and Purusha suktam somebody will sing . ok   You missed all points and views totally! you lost control hence you need YOGA.   Dhatri. --- On Tue, 11/4/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... To: "Kirdar" Cc: "sarai list" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 2:50 PM Dear Kirdar, With all due respect, I honestly have nothing to prove to anybody least all of all to the swarms of suffering KPs that populate this list. I do not see why i should denounce this or that, make statements in favour of this or that. I have been called terrorist-sympathizer and much worse on this list, it bothers me not in the least. I am not a public person, I do not hold public office, I am not a leader of any movement, no one's life or work depends on me. I have therefore not taken any thekka to pledge my support for the cause of the day. I write about what I feel like and respond to what I feel like. Unlike Aditya and Pawan who seem to suffer from a form of what could be called "social Tourette's syndrome" (look it up kids), and need constant and ever-increasing affirmation of their worth by thrusting their wounded battered selves into our weary consciousnesses, I have no such insecurities and fantasies. I appreciate your attempting to resolve this, but you will soon realise that the wounds on poor Aditya and Pawan are about the size of a meteor's crater which mere human intervention can never hope to fill. We would need Lord Krishna himself to chuck an inverted Govardhan in as band-aid. Good luck in your ministering efforts regardless. best Aarti On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Kirdar wrote: > Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation > between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your > private mail to the list. > > Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, > but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you > denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you > do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words > because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides > have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only > victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this > list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto > helping their cause any way. > > But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and > come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have > decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even > news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are > interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let > the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. > > Jai myself/thyself > > Kirdar > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> kirdar, >> >> when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a >> point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . >> >> shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic >> terrorism can identify.. >> >> till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident >> islamic terrorism terrorism . >> >> I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid >> he suffers because of it. >> >> Pawan durani >> jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 16:58:29 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:58:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> References: <905075.48377.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <8CB0BD0A2E2C8A2-CB0-3CE5@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> <8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811040328p7e0372e1t713469ad8cc436c3@mail.gmail.com> Thanks dear Samhoodx your response to 'nudity' was just desirable. yes, all those who have difficulty with Nudity in art should know what they approve for themselves in the first place. and how they SEE this MARKET of ours !!!!! and i am sure they will find numerous contradictions while holding 'nudity' guilty of violating societal norms. here, in particular, as a Hindu one needs to ask, which era of Hinduism they belong to, if one is so dying to be identified as Hindu. ( for example Mr. Kshmendra, a friend on the List, does not want to be identified as Hindu, but a Kashmiri pandit, and Indian, which i found interesting. This is irrespective of his opinion about Nudity ) because there are many systems and many thought patterns in all this complexity called Hindusim, I personally, find most of its iconography,rich and layered, and eternally inviting the eye to enter its myriad layout..... we all know Hinduism is a way of life, an open ended system of thoughts, which a Hindu believer is free to disown without being outside it… Unfortunately, we have modern hindu believers ( mostly upper middle class ) today, who feel ashamed to see even gods in tight embrace, and wrap them in garments to save their blush , or their short-sightedness ... and those who are so proud to be identified as Muslims , Christians or anything else may need to do the same questioning, because, one can not suddenly say this is wrong or this is right, without marking the territory they want be to inside. The territory is vast, will give them space to manoeuvre, even though it is will be limited in the long run, more so, when you proudly Hindu believer. we know, that the past is breathing through a given multiple of a presence, and how come we can define ' nudity' without being known to the self, let alone the other. Is it the curse of modernity that Hindus are so averse to the idea of ' LINGUM, and YONI as representative symbols of fertility, Was past much conducive to artists to experiment with form, their body or their imagination, in comparison to our present which is so scientific in outlook. Here, it is not only India, but I guess in America, Rajendra Bhat's objection might have caused my arrest by now. But, this way, some proud Hindu friends look neither fish nor fowl. Sad, that we are content with consummation of our imagination through TV advertisements etc. I doubt myself, perhaps they have contaminated my aesthetic sense as well That also means, that as and when we see breasts of a goddess in a temple, or a woman ( mother even ) all we see pornography. alas, it was always much more to those artists and saints of the past who chiselled that beauty, but, these self styled champions of Hinduism sit most of the time in offices and believe, that just bowing their heads in front of a temple makes them enough Hindus. Right now, all we have is Gujaratis who manage/grab land in Delhi and make fake replicas ( clones ) of that ancient glory, which is bereft of that spark of imagination and courage to execute the miracle of nature through human body, and gods eventually. Even when i was in the temple, or right now, i never said, that nudity is the right thing to do in a temple , even when there was, or was not, a tradition of nudity at a given point of time. But, spontaneously i was fascinated, by the very idea of ruins in ancient Kashmir ( not a place of worship anymore ) that i wanted to be with the stones, wanted to speak with the silence, and be one with a space which has produced great scholars, great beauty in the past. i tried in my own way, and all may do it in their own way, if they want to connect with a past, Nudity is one of the ways... Whose sensibilities are hurt.... is it that same very casual look on the magnificence of a particular thing ( beauty ) , or one another indifferent look on the suffering homeless, starving people in India, and that terrible pollution, corruption and what not that plagues our great nation India. What pains this man who is so bothered with nudity. Ah, he must be too ashamed to see a 'nanga sadhu' while touring a place like Haridwar with his family. I wonder how, will he see a Digambar Jain Muni in his family if he was a Jain. There is a huge past within each identity, and it is one's laziness to see it that only, resulting a stifled debate, anger and fodder to hooliganism. The charged and thirsty self, If includes, poetry, iconography and architecture, or way of living of any religion, then the possibilities of making an entry into a past ( as present ), may look more meaningful than it is now. 'Nudity' as body without garment is a very shallow understanding of what even nudity means. We might feel naked with garments on us, and yet feel so free, and vice versa. Dear Rajendra ji, ; please dont see anything personal in it., it was just a frank response to yours, as well. I am thankful to your response, because, as human being, in absence of a questioning other, i feel talking to a walls only, asking bluntly something gives me hope, so there is life, even if we contradict…. Now just one simple question to you: if you were a citizen of Rama's Ayodhaya, that Valmiki's past, and you were supposed to doubt the chastity of Goddess Sita, what would you do, join the masses or be with Goddess Sita. Well, personally I would have abandoned Ayodhya the moment Goddess Sita was told to abandon the city of Rama. Perhaps, I identify myself more with poet-sage Valmiki than with Lord Rama. Now, you will certainly ask, what all this has to do with nudity. The issue is about sexuality as well. Now, see our great father of nation, Mahatma Gandhi, whom i admire for his immense contributions, but he was a great believer of Rama and had problems with Khajurahao temples. This is, perhaps, he had never resolved his sexuality. You are not the only one, even Gandhi ji would have objected to a nude performance. But a Tagore would never. See, there is a difference, between Tagore and Gandhi, you and me, Lord Rama and Sita Mata. with love is On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:15 PM, wrote: > correction: > > the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the > same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple > today" should read: > > "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple > today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." > > sam > > > -----Original Message----- > From: samhoodx at aol.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am > Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > > hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i > am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. > he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu > deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you > know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might > add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there > are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as > konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, > temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated > elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not > mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in > a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or > may not mean, and why. > > > sam > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rajendra bhat > > > ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at > martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture > was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? > > > Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, > of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining > hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be > civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places > of worship.! > > > Lot more love. > > > > > > >>> From: inder salim > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >>> Displacement from Kashmir > >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >>> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> well, dear pawan > >>> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, > >>> it is beyond my comprehension. > >>> > >>> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how > >>> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. > >>> > >>> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu > >>> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say > >>> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening > >>> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved > >>> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any > >>> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this > >>> question? > >>> > >>> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our > >>> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. > >>> > >>> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join > >>> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. > >>> > >>> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, > >>> > >>> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a > >>> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the > workers > >>> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. > >>> > >>> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are > ambigous > >>> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and > >>> profoundity at the same time. > >>> > >>> lot of love > >>> and regards > >>> is > >>> > >>> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside > >>> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from > >>> all this > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani > > >>> wrote: > >>> > IInder, > >>> > > >>> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > >>> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in > Martand > >>> Temple. > >>> > > >>> > Pawan > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 17:00:47 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:00:47 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 23, 13- nudity and faiths.! References: Message-ID: <304257.96065.qm@web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Well, if nudity had nothing to do in the faith of the great cultural artist, indersalim, then in practice only, hijab would not have been there only for women.? Nudity is totally shunned by the followers of faith of indersalim then why this hycracy of this cultural behaviour of uncivilised kind , just to annoy the other civilised in the society.?    As far as temples and nudity and the concept of nudity, it is for all to ponder and understand, as the faith of hindu way of life, does not limit itself to material life only, it has intellectual and spiritual aspects of the faith, and the temple scriptues and arts portray exactly this aspects of the faith, that after all the material and sensuous pleasures, there is some pleasure of much higher kind, that is intellectual to perceiev and spiritual way to seek. Unlike the holy scriptures which portarya haven as full of 72 virgins, dry fruits for breakfast and dining, the faith talks of soul, which does not need the body once it achieves the highest presence of super soul. When other scriptures have not yet imagined the ultimate bliss of being with super soul, the faith of this continent, has explained that soul has body as  cover, but body is not soul. After all the sensuous pleasures, the intellect seeks to bliss of the highest order, nudity does not affect the soul in the highest blissful stage, carnal pleasures also give temporary bliss, but intellect , body, mind and soul get eternal bliss when the intellect rises above all the mundane matters of sensuous pleasures, that is the reason the nude art is in the initial stages of the temple as one enters and as the person moves towards sanctum  these are not present.  As to inder salim type of cultrual beings, his faith limits itself only to material aspects of life, and urge to conquer the "others" in society, even though faith does not itself indulge in criminality, followers of these faith do indulge in criminal acts to seek more of material pleasure at any cost.? ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 4 November, 2008 2:57:19 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 31 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Fwd: YJA - here is what Hon'ble Justice Rekha Sharma    had to       say in her judgement (Jeebesh)   2. Re: Thinking Through Figures on... (Aarti Sethi)   3. Re: Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 (Aarti Sethi)   4. Re: Thinking Through Figures on... (Pawan Durani) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:35:40 +0530 From: Jeebesh Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: YJA - here is what Hon'ble Justice Rekha     Sharma    had to say in her judgement To: Sarai Reader-list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; format=flowed;     delsp=yes from: yamunajiye at gmail.com WP (C) No. 7506 of 2007 And WP (C) No. 7507 of 2007 This judgement relates to a river which once flowed majestically but  is now gasping for breath.  If this continues, time is not far off  when this gift of Gods, will die an unnatural death getting buried  beneath the layers of silt.  If no urgent remedial measures are taken  Yamuna may exist only in books.  It is this fear an anxiety that has  made me pen these lines. During arguments it was common case of the parties that development  cannot be divorced from environmental issues and that development has  to be compatible with the need to preserve, project rather improve  environment.  I think I am right in saying that it was at no point in  dispute that development has to co-exist and not endanger or cause  irreversible damage to nature.  I therefore need not go into any  lengthy discussion on this aspect of the matter or on what the courts  have said, for they have also not said anything different. What then is disputed ?  The dispute is with regard to the application  of the above said well delineated, well defined principles to the land  in question located in Pocket III Phase I in Zone ‘O’.  Development  projects have been undertaken in that area.  The petitioners says that  the entire construction activity is on the riverbed itself which will  destroy not only Yamuna but materially harm the entire ecologically  sensitive area.  The respondents, on the other than, assert that the  land in question is not riverbed and that in any case, the entire  construction work has been undertaken after due deliberation and after  obtaining required clearance from the authorities concerned and that  all remedial measures have been taken. Is the construction on the “river bed”? My noble brother has gone at  great lengths to fathom meaning and import of the term “river bed” and  after having undertaken that exercise has, in his wisdom left to an  “Expert Committee” to decide as to whether the site in question is on  the “river bed” or not.  I will revert to this “expert committee” a  little later.  Let me first deal with the question as to whether the  site in question is on the “river bed” or not and if not, to what  effect. Let us first have a look at the NEERI Report of 2005.  If we look at  it carefully we will find that it described the land in question as  “river bed”.  It says on page 2.8 of the report that “Being centrally  situated and considering pressures on the land, the land in river bed  is precious.”  Not only this, my learned brother has also noticed in  paragraph 65 of his judgement and I quote: “………..The MoEF has constituted independent Expert Committees called  the Expert Appraisal Committee………. for seeking approval for the  construction of the Commonwealth Games Village in the river bed.  ……….The Expert Appraisal Committee applied the precautionary principle  to emphasise that the proposed work should not be of a permanent  nature………. and the river bed may be restored to the river. My brother has also noted in paragraph 66, the Environmental Clearance  for the project, accorded on 14.12.2006, on the following condition: “Since the design of the proposed structure is yet to be made, so far  as possible the work should not be of a permanent nature……… the  proposals should proceed with the assumption that the river bed may  have to be restored to the river”.  (emphasis supplied) I feel, with respect that in view of what has been noticed above, no  doubt is left that the site in question is on the river bed.  However,  to my mind, even if it be taken that the site in question is not river  bed, yet the urbanization of the site and colossal construction, under  way may yet adversely affect the environment, the river and ecology.  That it can be so finds support from the following culled out from the  Master Plan. “Apart from being the main source of water supply for Delhi, it is one  of major sources of ground water recharge.  However, over the years,  rapid urbanization, encroachment on the river banks, over exploitation  of natural resources/water and serious deficiencies and backlog in  sanitation and waste waster management services have resulted in the  dwindling of water flow in the river and extremely high levels of  pollution in the form of BoD”. During arguments, the respondents had heavily relied upon on the  judgement of the Supreme Court in U.P. Employees Federation Case  relating to construction of Akshardham Temple.  The order passed by  the Supreme Court would go to show that the larger issue now raised  before us were apparently not raised or gone into.  In any case, in  view of the facts and circumstances of the present case and the great  many disputed issued raised before us, the said judgement, with  respect, cannot be treated as a binding precedent. The Reports of the NEERI on which respondents had leaned heavily do  not paint this body in bright colours.  Rather, they show how it has  changed colours and has not bothered to contradict itself.  In its  report of 2005 first it spoke against “heavy capital investment” and  pleaded for “no large development activities except horticultural  operations and provisions of green linkages with the adjoining and  existing built up areas to maintain ecological balance and relief to  the public”.  It also spoke of “maintenance of existing vegetation”  and warned against encroachments, building activity and “urban sprawl”  and in the very next breath it recommended release of vast chunk of  land “for urban activities”.  Of course, my learned brother has also  noticed the subsequent report of the NEERI and its affidavit dated  January 29, 2008 and, with respect, I join him when he says “we are  constrained to observe that his affidavit is the result of some of the  loopholes in its earlier reports which were picked up by the  petitioners and pointed out to the court.  From an institution of this  repute, it was not expected that report of this kind would be  submitted.” It is not only NEERI, it is the Ministry of Environment and Forest  also which is equally guilty of changing its position.  The proposal  of DDA (who happens to be respondent No. 5) for seeking approval for  the construction of the Commonwealth Games on the river bed came up  for appraisal by the Expert Appraisal Committee constituted by the  said Ministry.  It is important to note that the Committee visited the  site and only thereafter, and obviously after due deliberations  emphasized that the proposed construction should not be of a permanent  nature and the structures raised should rather be dismantable.  Adopting those recommendations and agreeing with them, the Ministry  accorded clearance on 14.12.2006 observing as under: “Since the design of the proposed structures is yet to be made, so far  as possible the work should not be of a permanent nature. It should be  possible to take this point into consideration and adopt dismantable  structures.  Unless detailed studies lead to the conclusion that the  proposed structures can be left behind permanently, the proposals  should proceed with the assumption that the river bed may have to be  restored to the river.” And within a span of few days that report was ignored, the condition  reproduced above was given a go-bye and the Delhi Development  Authority was signaled to go ahead with the construction works  “permanent or temporary” subject to certain conditions of little  significant.  In any case, the DDA had no difficulty in obtaining  report from CWPRS, Pune which too, on closer scrutiny appears to be  dubious. It is a sad story of men in haste fiddling with major issues and  resultantly playing havoc. The significance and importance of the Commonwealth Games is not lost  on any one.  Even the petitioners acknowledged it.  The parties also  acknowledge the importance of economic development and the concept of  sustainable development.  Even the ambit and scope of public trust  doctrine was not under challenge nor doubted and therefore, I need not  deal with all these aspects..  It may be stated even at the risk of  repetition that what was disputed was the impact of the building  activity on the Yamuna, its environment, ecology and the long term  damage which, it was stated by the petitioners was pregnant with  disaster. As would be borne out from the above neither NEERI nor Ministry of  Environment and Forest nor DDA can be said to have acted fairly and  objectively.  Their hands appear to be tainted.  The issues involved  are of great significance and importance and they require  dispassionate, honest and thorough examination by experts of eminence  and impeccable integrity.  Since my learned brother also feels the  same, we stand on the same pedestal.  I do feel that constitution of a  Committee of Experts would help and with regard to that also I stand  by the side of my learned brother.  It is a matter of great relief  that Dr. R.K. Pachauri has agreed to be the Chairman of the said  Committee.  However, my learned brother is silent about the  constitution and other salient aspects concerning the Committee which  need to be spelled out in detail.  Who will appoint the Committee ?  Who will be its members ?  What exactly would be the scope of enquiry  by the Committee ?  Can the Committee give interim report ?  And to  whom ?  Similarly to whom it is to give the final report ?  And to  what effect ?  These and other issues need to be dealt with.  I  therefore issue the following directions: (i)    A Committee of Experts would be constituted by the Court under  the Chairmanship of Dr. R.K. Pachauri comprising of four members.  Each party is directed to propose two names for its members within  three weeks.  Out of the proposed, the court shall appoint members in  consultation with the Chairman.  The Chairman, may, at his discretion,  associate any non-members/expert/s.  The Committee shall undertake  study of the constructions, whether proposed or completed or underway,  on the land in dispute and report within four months of its  constitution as to whether they or any of them,  whether in whole or  in part affect or are likely to affect adversely, in any manner, the  ecology of Yamuna river bed or the ecology of Yamuna river, its ground  water recharge ability or violate in any manner, the public trust  doctrine.  The Committee shall give reasonable opportunity of hearing  to the parties before formulating its reports.  The parties shall  extend required assistance to the Committee. (ii)  On submission of the report, any of the parties may apply to the  Court for any further direction.  The court may also suo-motu issue  further direction/s as may be deemed proper after notice to the  parties.  All constructions whether complete or incomplete or proposed  to be constructed shall be subject to such directions as may be made  by the court on the receipt of the report / interim report of the  Committee of Experts. (iii) If during the aforementioned study of the Committee of Experts,  the Committee finds that any construction, complete or incomplete or  proposed to be constructed adversely affects or is likely to affect  adversely the ecology of the river or its flood plain or is not in  accordance with the development plans as proposed and sanctioned  keeping in view the conditions on which environmental clearances had  been obtained and immediate remedial action is required, it may make  an interim report to the court.  On receipt of such report, the Court  may suo-motu or on an application by any of the parties, pass such  order/direction/s as it may deem appropriate. (iv) All third party interests created or proposed to be created on  the land in dispute or in the constructions made or proposed to be  made shall be subject to the directions as may be made by the court on  the submission of reports of the Committee of Experts. It may be  noticed here that we were told during the hearing that construction at  a massive scale was being carried out.  We had made amply clear that  if despite the pendency of the writ-petitions the respondents or any  other person were raising constructions or were creating third party  interests they were doing so at their own peril. I reiterate that. (v)  The Central Government shall forthwith and not later than three  weeks provide all working facilities including adequate office space  and required staff to the Committee of Experts. (vi) The directions with regard to the honorarium to the Chairman and  the Members of the Committee of Experts and the expenses shall be  issued later in consultation with the Chairman of the Committee of  Experts. Message: 3 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:56:25 +0530 From: "Aarti Sethi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <48c2916d0811040126m51eec8dpb3f3465c25722a6c at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Yes Dhatri it is indeed clister clear. Just as clister as everything else you say. Regardless, why should Inder pose nude according to your demands? I don't think this is a service he is offering just as yet. Where he chooses to photograph himself in what attire is really nothing to do with you. And what is this strange fetish you have about nudity? I think we have all had this conversation before and we have all told you that we find nothing shameful or unclean about the human body, so why does nudity upset you so much? On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:45 AM, we wi wrote: > Uncle Sam, > >      It is not the nudity that you understand. You should watch INDER mails and LINK.  It's not that I(we) said something , you(inder) said something.  What the people on the List mean is Inder should visit some mosque of his choce(liberty has given),  and implement HIS CRAZYNESS/MADNESS practically as he did it in on a "IDOl" .  Photograph it and make available to the all users. Let everybody know, if it hurts everybody(including him) or not.. > > Forget about Nudity, Idol worshipping, Manners in Society for time being, Peoples feelilngs/reaction is accountable.  I hope it is clister clear now.. > > Dhatri. > > --- On Mon, 11/3/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote: > > From: samhoodx at aol.com > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:15 PM > > correction: > > the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the > same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple > > today" should read: > > "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a > temple > today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." > > sam > > > -----Original Message----- > From: samhoodx at aol.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am > Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > > hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i > am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. > he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu > deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you > know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might > add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there > are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as > konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, > temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated > elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not > mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in > a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or > may not mean, and why. > > > sam > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rajendra bhat > > > .... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at > martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture > was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? > > > Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, > of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining > hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be > civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places > of worship.! > > > Lot more love. > > > > > > > >>> From: inder salim > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >>> Displacement from Kashmir > >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >>> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> well, dear pawan > >>> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra > slogan, > >>> it is beyond my comprehension. > >>> > >>> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how > >>> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. > >>> > >>> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu > >>> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say > >>> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening > >>> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene > involved > >>> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any > >>> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this > >>> question? > >>> > >>> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our > >>> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. > >>> > >>> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join > >>> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. > >>> > >>> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, > >>> > >>> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a > >>> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the > workers > >>> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. > >>> > >>> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are > ambigous > >>> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and > >>> profoundity at the same time. > >>> > >>> lot of love > >>> and regards > >>> is > >>> > >>> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside > >>> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from > >>> all this > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani > > >>> wrote: > >>> > IInder, > >>> > > >>> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef > >>> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in > Martand > >>> Temple. > >>> > > >>> > Pawan > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-requesDEFANGED.119> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:50:44 +0530 From: "Aarti Sethi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... To: Kirdar Cc: sarai list ,    Shuddhabrata Sengupta     Message-ID:     <48c2916d0811040120w71ed997dma6922f10c3e93fbd at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear Kirdar, With all due respect, I honestly have nothing to prove to anybody least all of all to the swarms of suffering KPs that populate this list. I do not see why i should denounce this or that, make statements in favour of this or that. I have been called terrorist-sympathizer and much worse on this list, it bothers me not in the least. I am not a public person, I do not hold public office, I am not a leader of any movement, no one's life or work depends on me. I have therefore not taken any thekka to pledge my support for the cause of the day. I write about what I feel like and respond to what I feel like. Unlike Aditya and Pawan who seem to suffer from a form of what could be called "social Tourette's syndrome" (look it up kids), and need constant and ever-increasing affirmation of their worth by thrusting their wounded battered selves into our weary consciousnesses, I have no such insecurities and fantasies. I appreciate your attempting to resolve this, but you will soon realise that the wounds on poor Aditya and Pawan are about the size of a meteor's crater which mere human intervention can never hope to fill. We would need Lord Krishna himself to chuck an inverted Govardhan in as band-aid. Good luck in your ministering efforts regardless. best Aarti On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Kirdar wrote: > Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation > between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your > private mail to the list. > > Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, > but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you > denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you > do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words > because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides > have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only > victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this > list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto > helping their cause any way. > > But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and > come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have > decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even > news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are > interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let > the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. > > Jai myself/thyself > > Kirdar > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> kirdar, >> >> when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a >> point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . >> >> shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic >> terrorism can identify.. >> >> till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident >> islamic terrorism terrorism . >> >> I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid >> he suffers because  of it. >> >> Pawan durani >> jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ t at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: - ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:56:59 +0530 From: "Pawan Durani" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on... To: "Aarti Sethi" Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ,    sarai list     Message-ID:     <6b79f1a70811040126r6b3225c5xfb8cb9ba06df6c27 at mail.gmail.com> Aarti, This list belongs as much to me as it does to any leftist from JNU. When would i hear you sing ? Pawan On 11/4/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Kirdar, > > With all due respect, I honestly have nothing to prove to anybody > least all of all to the swarms of suffering KPs that populate this > list. I do not see why i should denounce this or that, make statements > in favour of this or that. I have been called terrorist-sympathizer > and much worse on this list, it bothers me not in the least. I am not > a public person, I do not hold public office, I am not a leader of any > movement, no one's life or work depends on me. I have therefore not > taken any thekka to pledge my support for the cause of the day. I > write about what I feel like and respond to what I feel like. > > Unlike Aditya and Pawan who seem to suffer from a form of what could > be called "social Tourette's syndrome" (look it up kids), and need > constant and ever-increasing affirmation of their worth by thrusting > their wounded battered selves into our weary consciousnesses, I have > no such insecurities and fantasies. > > I appreciate your attempting to resolve this, but you will soon > realise that the wounds on poor Aditya and Pawan are about the size of > a meteor's crater which mere human intervention can never hope to > fill. We would need Lord Krishna himself to chuck an inverted > Govardhan in as band-aid. > > Good luck in your ministering efforts regardless. > > best > Aarti > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Kirdar wrote: > > Dear Pawan, since I am making an effort to bring some reconciliation > > between differing viewpoints, I am taking a liberty to forward your > > private mail to the list. > > > > Dear Shuddha, Aarti, Shivam etc. I agree with whatever you folks say, > > but I think what is needed here is a simple submission that you > > denounce "Muslim" militancy in Kashmir. It won't cost much. I know you > > do denounce it obviously, but you are not saying it in so many words > > because the situation is much more complicated - people on both sides > > have been affected equally badly - Kashmiri Pundits are not the only > > victimized people on earth. But their persistent irritation on this > > list has left such bad taste in your mouth that you don't feel upto > > helping their cause any way. > > > > But I request all of you to stop doubting each other's intentions, and > > come down to discussing practical ways of resolving our issues. I have > > decided to judge each day what sort of emails you folks forward (even > > news items such as "Islamic justice" and so on) to see whether you are > > interested in genuine resolution of issues or simply mud-slinging. Let > > the readers of this list judge what is your purpose in life. > > > > Jai myself/thyself > > > > Kirdar > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > >> kirdar, > >> > >> when I having been so deeply involved in kashmir issue try to prove a > >> point u necessarily don't need to agree with me,for various reasons . > >> > >> shuddha is a character whom only victims of kashmir issue and islamic > >> terrorism can identify.. > >> > >> till date this loose canon has not written a word against evident > >> islamic terrorism terrorism . > >> > >> I know where he is coming from and trust he wud repent if god forbid > >> he suffers because  of it. > >> > >> Pawan durani > >> jai maharashtra jai hind jai panun kashmir issue > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 31 ******************************************* Be the first one to try the new Messenger 9 Beta! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/win/ From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 17:16:11 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:16:11 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 26 References: Message-ID: <628183.71839.qm@web94909.mail.in2.yahoo.com> "narrow-mindedHe had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same of .........., These words hold true for many citizens today, when they respond and react to the posts, immediately such are labelled as left, right and communal.?  Concern at social ills are articulated, efforts are made to raise the awareness in all about the pettyness of a few, rule of laws when flouted, the governance in society does not remain fair and just as this leads to favours to few individuals or group of such,  of castes and faiths in democratic life, the ones who feel cheated then have grouse against the system of governance as the system is not all inclusive and favouring parts, segments of individuals may be, because of the faith, caste etc. Criticism at such favoured actions if directed , are often seen with tinted glasses of green, saffron and never in clear vision for the entire society.? From: rajendra bhat ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love. >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2,2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:45:00 -0800 (PST) From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally     displaced persons’ status To: reader-list at sarai.net, Aman Sethi Message-ID: <755035.69140.qm at web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear Aman   I hope your 'suggestion' was just a 'needle'. One more added to the many that populate this List.   Such one-liner 'needles' meant to only provoke and not contribute anything useful carry their own consequences of responses they get. Once that happens, there is a lot of whining all around.   Certainly your 'suggestion' could not have been a serious one. If it was intended to be so, it was 'moronic' indeed. Seriously moronic.   KPs believe that the erstwhile Princely State of J&K duly became a part of India through the Instrument of Accession. You may or may not agree with that position but that is what KPs believe.   With 'that position' of the KPs it would be quite moronic for anyone to suggest that they should simultaneously demand implementation of the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' which contradicts the position held by KPs.   You might see the implementation of the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' as un unfinished agenda. You might (if you do) see it as 'A Cause'  or even see it as 'The Cause' in Kashmir. That does not mean that no other 'cause' linked with 'Kashmir' can be spoken about unless simultaneously what you see as "A Cause" or "The Cause" in 'Kashmir' is not spoken about.   Instead of the 'moronic' suggestion, you could have if you wanted to and felt strongly about, questioned the validity of KPs seeking recognition as IDPs. Or, if you think that KPs are IDPs, perhaps even suggested what would be proper manner and fora in which to seek recognition as IDPs.   Since you mentioned it, I hope you know that the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' is generally evaluated as giving only 2 options; 'Join India' or 'Join Pakistan'. There is no 'Third Option'. (Generally so evaluated).   You might want to ponder over what has changed since 1947 that led Kofi Annan to doubt whether the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir' can be implemented. It has been reported that the Resolutions do not fall under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and so the UN has no 'enforcement' mandate.    You might also like to think over what it was that led Musharraff to float his 'thinking out of the box' proposals while in fact disregarding but not acknowledging the discarding of the UN Resolution on 'Kashmir'.   Think. Unless, you want to come up with yet another "moronic' suggestion, in which case you do not need to do much thinking.   Kshmendra        --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Aman Sethi wrote: From: Aman Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced persons’ status To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 3:42 AM Perhaps you should insist that India carry out the UN mandated plebiscite as well. a. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status By Indo-Asian > News Service on > Friday, October 31, 2008 > >  Kashmiri Pandits held a silent sit in protest outside the United Nations > High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) office here Friday, demanding that > the community, which fled the Kashmir > Valleyduring the peak of > militancy 20 years ago, be declared as internally > displaced persons (IDPs). > > The community represented by Kashmiri youth organisations in the capital > like Roots in Kashmir, Internally Displaced Youth Front, All India Kashmir > Samaj, Panun Kashmir and others, along with elderly members of the community > in Delhi, presented a five-page memorandum of their demands to Nayona Bose > of the UNHCR to be forwarded to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who is on > a two-day visit to India. > > "We welcome the UN secretary on his visit to India. As a community we, > therefore, appeal to him to help us - declare the Kashmiri Hindu community > as IDPs," Lalit Ambardar, 35, a qualified engineer who was one of the > 100-odd protestors, told IANS. > > "The Human Rights Working Group on Minorities in Geneva had recognised > Kashmiri Hindus formally as a 'reverse minority'. So the use of the > insulting term of 'migrants' for us - a forcibly exiled community - should > be removed from all records and communications relating to us henceforth," > Ambardar chorused the protestor's demand. > > Many others protestors were angry about the state to which Kashmiri Hindus > have been reduced since insurgency in the Kashmir Valley in 1989-90, when > more that 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits fled their homes to escape persecution. > > "Historically, Kashmiri Pandits were known to be intellectuals, but now we > are rotting away - we are a national waste - we have no political > representation, have no geographic ethnicity that we can claim as our own!" > fumed Raj Raina, 37. > > Raina was unable to get a government job owing to his 'migrant' status. He > is now self-employed and runs a small printing press. > > "When I was forced to leave my home in the Valley, > militantsthreatened us time and > again - merge with us (with political and religious > views), perish or vanish," Raina recapitulated memories of the insurgency. > > Amongst those present from the community were varsity > students, > who also held that the current situation was sordid. > > "Calling us migrants implies that we had a choice in the matter, when we > were actually forced to flee," said Aditya Raj Kaul, a 22-year-old student > activist from Delhi University. > > "We have demanded in the memorandum that the UN direct the Indian government > to ensure adequate protection to the residual Kashmiri Hindu population > living in the Valley. Also that Kashmiri Hindus be restored political and > economic rights, giving them equal status rather than second-class > citizenship in their native land," Kaul informed. > > Link - > http://www.freshnews.in/kashmiri-pandits-demand-internally-displaced-persons-status-93431 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   ------------------------------ MessaDEFANGED.41730> ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 3 November, 2008 7:35:08 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 26 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail..sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Fwd:  reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 (samhoodx at aol.com)   2. Re: Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced       persons’ status (Kshmendra Kaul)   3. Fwd:  reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 (samhoodx at aol.com)   4. I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz (Vivek Narayanan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:38:49 -0500 From: samhoodx at aol.com Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:  reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <8CB0BD0A2E2C8A2-CB0-3CE5 at mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu deities did not have any problem with nudity.. that is correct. as you know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or may not mean, and why. sam -----Original Message-----ge: 3 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:45:08 -0500 From: samhoodx at aol.com Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:  reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45 at mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> correction: the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today" should read: "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." sam - -----Original Message----- From: samhoodx at aol.com To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or may not mean, and why.. sam - -----Original Message----- From: rajendra bhat ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love. >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > - ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:34:29 +0530 From: Vivek Narayanan Subject: [Reader-list] I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz To: sarai list Message-ID: <490F04ED.2040909 at sarai.net> I know well that poetry is outlawed in quite a few republics, maybe for good reason; I know that it renders some people speechless, others angry, and still others contemptuous; but still I wanted to throw this beautiful "non-memoir" (of Czeslaw Milosz, one of the greatest poets of the twentieth century) down and see if anyone had anything to say. ", narrow-mindedHe had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same of ness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believedtime he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed." Is it indeed possible to love your land deeply but despise the stupidity of nationalism, to conduct an intense lifelong search for the invisible while avoiding doctrinarian religion? Milosz, like many others, believed it was not only possible, but necessary. Vivek (from The Threepenny Review: http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/zagajewski_f08.html ) *I Can't Write a Memoir of Czeslaw Milosz* Adam Zagajewski I can't write a memoir of Czeslaw Milosz. For some reason it seems impossible to me though I had almost no trouble when I wrote about the late Zbigniew Herbert, for example (but, on the other hand, I wouldn't envisage writing this kind of essay about Joseph Brodsky either, someone I knew well). Why is it so? Was Herbert more of a "unified person"? Not really. All three of them, Milosz, Herbert, Brodsky—so different as poets and human beings—enjoyed, or suffered, the complexity of a life divided between the utmost seriousness of their work and the relative jocularity of what the other people perceived as their socially visible personalities. All three enjoyed joking, being with other people, dominating the conversation, laughing (Milosz's laugh was the loudest, the most majestic), as if needing a respite from the gravity of their vocation. And yet, again, some time ago I was able to write a few pages about Herbert's life. Was it because I met him briefly when I was almost a child, when he visited my high school in Silesia? Because his personal predicament, his illness, stamped him with a drama which was so gripping in its ferocity and made him differ even more from the music of his noble poetry than was the case with other poets and artists (who, none of them, are ever identical with their work)? Because I had the feeling that, as we were born in the same city of Lvov, some twenty years apart and only two hundred yards away from each other, I had a special claim on his fate, the way veterans from two different wars but from the same regiment may feel close, almost like members of the same tribe, the same family? I had read Milosz for many years before I met him in person. In the late Sixties and in the Seventies I didn't believe I'd ever meet him. He was then for me a legend, a unicorn, somebody living on a different planet; California was but a beautiful name to me. He belonged to a chapter of the history of Polish literature that seemed to be, seen from the landscape of my youth, as remote as the Middle Ages. He was a part of the last generation that had been born into the world of the impoverished gentry (impoverished but still very much defining themselves as gentry): he grew up in a small manor house in the Lithuanian countryside where woods, streams, and water snakes were as evident as streetcars and apartment houses in the modest, industrial city of my childhood. His Poland was so totally different from mine—it had its wings spread to the East. When he was born in 1911 he was a subject of the Russian Tsar; everything Russian, including the language which he knew so well, was familiar to him (though, as his readers well know, he was also very critical of many things Russian). I was born into a Poland that had changed its shape; like a sleeper who turns from one side to another, my country spread its arms toward the West—of course only physically, because politically it was incorporated into the Eastern bloc. I grew up in a post-German city; almost everything in the world of my childhood looked and smelled German.. Cabbage seemed to be German, trees and walls recalled Bismarck, blackbirds sang with a Teutonic accent. My primary school could have belonged in any of Berlin's middle-class suburbs—its Prussian bricks were dark red like the lips of Wagnerian singers. The first radio in our apartment (a radio I worshipped—it received signals from an invisible realm, it had music, it brought strange sounds from different continents) was German and probably still nostalgic about Adolph Hitler's endless speeches. The first foreign language I had begun to learn (unwillingly), because of my grandfather, himself a Germanist, was German, too. For Milosz, who was a polyglot, learning German never existed as a possibility, especially after World War II, and German poetry never played a major role in the vast universe of his reading. There were no manor houses and water snakes in my childhood. Coal mines and chimneys played the part of woods and meadows. Aristocratic families were squatting in the smallest apartments, surviving on minimal wages. (My family, I hasten to make it clear, was not aristocratic at all.) I was supposed to be a lucky inhabitant of a classless society in which falcons and sparrows were condemned to mandatory friendship. Classless society: practically, it meant that everybody was very poor, with the exception of Party dignitaries and a few cunning merchants who were able to outwit the Party but whose sleep was rather nervous; the wealth they accumulated could have been taken away from them in one day, no solid law protected them. The language we spoke was a plebeian Polish, hard, ugly, filled with typical Communist acronyms, abbrevations, and clichés, punctuated with giggles, swear-words, and ironies—a language of slaves, good only for basic communication in a kind of a Boolean algebra of resentment. In the mid-Seventies I venerated a performance of Adam Mickiewicz's Dziady (Forefathers) staged at the Teatr Stary in Krakow; it was directed by Konrad Swinarski, who before long died tragically in an airplane accident in Syria. Soon afterwards I was told that Milosz, who had been offered the recording of the piece, commented sourly: "I can't stand the way these actors speak the Polish language." He found their pronunciation barbaric. These barbarians were my peers, my contemporaries: I knew many of them from rather benign military training sessions at the university. When they played the rebels from the Mickiewicz generation they sounded to me like my friends; I was transported back to turn-of-the-century Vilna, I was one of them. They spoke my language, a language that didn't have the sweet music of Russian nor the elegance of French. Also in the Seventies, one of my friends, a painter, Leszek Sobocki, traveled regularly to the United States (his mother was living in Los Angeles then). He was a part of a vague constellation of young artists and poets who were critical of the Communist system, though they hadn't known any other from personal experience, and who tried, being faithful to a more or less realistic aesthetic, to create art that would matter socially and politically. I belonged to the same archipelago. Sobocki, on one of his trips to L.A.., mailed to Berkeley a package which contained excerpts from poetry and fiction produced by us, as well as reproductions of the paintings and prints made by him and his friends. After a while, a long letter written in response by Milosz arrived; it couldn't have been more devastating. Milosz basically dismissed the whole business of socially critical art, reducing our efforts to the well-meaning but aesthetically uninteresting and totally predictable reactions of inexperienced youngsters. He extolled "metaphysical distance," quoting Aleksander Wat's sentence on the necessity of fighting against Communism on metaphysical grounds. Which meant going to the very foundations of somebody's convictions. The letter was a cold shower for us, for me. Was Milosz right? I was of two minds even then... He gave me pause. Now I think he was mostly right, though there must have been also a bit of jealousy in his judgment, jealousy of the directness of our action; an intellectual in exile is often "metaphysical" by necessity— for him it's not a matter of free choice since he has lost access to the unmediated spectacle of life in his own country. A much younger Milosz, the Milosz of the great poems written under the Nazi occupation or right after it, was after all somebody who didn't disdain directness at all. And yet against all odds I fell in love with Milosz's poetry; its melodies seemed at times ancient, but its intellectual content couldn't have been more modern, more attractive, more complex, more intoxicating. I say I fell in love with it, which is true—still, first I had to find Milosz's poems, which was very difficult indeed. My parents had a significant library (where, it's true, fiction dwarfed poetry) but there was nothing by Milosz on the shelves. His name was erased from all the textbooks. My high school literature teacher never mentioned the name of Czeslaw Milosz. In an encyclopedia there was an entry under Milosz, but it was devoted to "Milosz Obrenovic," a brave Serbian prince, not to the author of Native Realm. Since 1951, the year of his defection, Milosz had been an outcast, a non-person. If his name did appear somewhere in print, it was frequently accompanied by the official Byzantine formula "an enemy of the People's Republic of Poland.." Poor republic, having such a potent enemy! In order to be able to read his poems and his prose, I needed a special permit from the dean of my college, and even once I got it—which wasn't easy—I was not allowed to check these books out; I could only study them in one of the reading rooms in the Jagellonian Library, my Krakow alma mater's crown jewel. Each day I had to say good-night to a pile of books: they had to stay on the shelf while I walked home. I was assigned to the Professors' Reading Room, which in my eyes, the eyes of a young graduate student, added to the importance of the occasion. And there I sat for hours, discovering the writings of the enemy of our republic. Sweet hours! And they were made even sweeter by the conspiratorial conditions under which I approached Milosz's poetry. The richness of this work was overwhelming; I wasn't able right away to grasp the whole extent of the poet's achievement. I was swallowing lines of his poems like somebody given only a short moment in a magical orchard, a trespasser avidly reaching out for cherries, pears, peaches. I didn't have enough time and leisure—nor maturity, I'm afraid—to discern the different layers within his work, to understand the meandering of his thought, to define the stages of Milosz's complicated poetic evolution. I read for enchantment, not for any critical insights. I remember walking home after these sessions in the library and repeating lines from his poems—I was inebriated with them. Had I been a driver then, the police could have arrested me for driving in a state of drunkenness. But as I was only a chaotic walker, nobody could stop me; even a totalitarian state was not able to control my daydreams, my poetic fascinations, the pattern of my walking. What was it that attracted me to Milosz's poetry? Precisely everything that was different from my own experience, my own situation, from my "people's republic" language. I fell in love with the freedom with which Milosz both respected and defied the rules of poetic modernism. He was saying more than the poets I had known before—I mean he didn't keep a strict diet of purist metaphors: he was willing to tell the reader more than was accepted among contemporary poets. The reader knew that Milosz believed in something and hated something else, knew what Milosz's Weltanschauung was, and yet many of his poems were violent quarrels of the poet with himself, not at all easy to decipher—he was never doctrinaire, he never quite agreed with himself. I was also struck by a constant, energetic quest for the invisible in his poetry, a quest that arose amidst the most concrete, sensual images, not in an ascetic monastery chapel. In his oeuvre, ecstatic tones mixed with sober reflection; there was no easy way to classify this poetry—it burst taxonomies. It was not "nature poetry," it was not a "poetic meditation on History," neither was it "autobiographical lyric"—it was all of those. The ambition of this poet knew no limits; he tried to drink in the cosmos. After so much intimacy gained from the contact with his work, the shock of meeting him in person was still considerable. And the contrast between the immense, complicated territory of his powerful work and the gentleman I finally met (a seventy-year-old "smiling public man") was sizeable, too. How can a single person embody all the nuances and contradictions of a vast opus? I don't want to say that I was disappointed with Milosz's human incarnation. Not at all; I admired him, I loved him, every moment spent with him was fascinating. He was a kind friend; he wrote a most generous preface to Tremor, my first collection of poems in the United States; he showed interest in my life and work; and much later, in Krakow, we became almost neighbors, and I saw him often. And yet I know that for him I always remained a younger friend, not somebody he would confide in the way, I imagine, some from his generation might have enjoyed—or endured. I met him for the first time in June 1983, in Paris, in the spacious apartment of Leonor Fini and Konstanty Jelenski near Place des Victoires. I was then somebody who had recently left Poland and who had no idea how long his Parisian emigration would last. Konstanty Jelenski was an exile like Milosz, a brilliant critic and a great admirer of Milosz's poetry. The Milosz I met then was an elder statesman—old and yet strangely young and handsome, serene, witty, radiating an energy which made him the center of every social event; wild and tame at the same time, rescued by the renown of the Stockholm accolade from the trials of his Berkeley solitude. In January 1986 I read with him and some other famous poets during the PEN conference in New York, in the Cooper Union Hall, where a huge and enthusiastic audience that consisted mostly, it seemed, of very young poets greeted the readers—what a wonderful audience it was! After that I saw him now and then in Paris, in California, in New York, in Indianapolis... In Houston, where I taught creative writing, I introduced his reading. Later, in Krakow, I'd visit him many times in his apartment in Boguslawski Street, where he eventually settled down with Carol. I saw him walking—more and more slowly—in the Krakow Old Town, where almost everybody recognized him and looked at him with awe. Given the slow pace of his walks, the awe had enough time to be richly deployed. He was like Goethe in Weimar, though his apartment was so much more modest than the house in Frauenplan—but the centrality of his position in the small world of Krakow and Poland was never questioned. This in itself was an enormous achievement for an exile who had returned to his country after so many decades of absence. His intellectual authority was overwhelming. In the restaurants he spoke very loudly because he was hard of hearing, so loudly that it was a bit embarrassing for his friends—not much privacy in these conversations. And yet he was never diminished by his great old age. His memory was invincible, his laughter irresistible, his mind alert. In 2002 and 2003 he was enthusiastically received by American poets, very young ones and also the well-known ones, during summer conferences I organized with Edward Hirsch in Krakow; Milosz refused to participate in panels because he couldn't hear what the others said, but agreed to meet students from Houston. He gave several Q & A's, answering endless questions, embarking on long, unforgettable soliloquies (someone would always help him by repeating the question near his better ear). And he read with the other poets: I'll always remember him at a reading in the beautifully restored Krakow reform synagogue, a yarmulka on his regal head—old David speaking to his nation, feeble and yet so strong, solemn but also visibly savoring with a courteous, contented smile the din of the ovation that went on and on. There was something absolutely splendid in the way he stood up to the challenges of his last years. He never withdrew into the comfort of a well-deserved retirement. With those he loved or liked, he was tender, magnanimous, charming; he received many friends and many strangers, young or old admirers of his work, poets and critics, but when he spoke in public he retained the tone of an angry prophet. He had always attacked the pettiness of his compatriots; he defended the visionary homeland of his dreams, pluralistic and tolerant, but at the same time he castigated the vices of the existing society: he hated anti-Semitism, narrow-mindedness, nationalism, stupidity. He had a religious mind but he also believed in liberal, democratic principles and tried to teach his contemporaries the implications of this complex creed. I witnessed his deep sadness after Carol died; by then he knew he would face the end of his life in an empty apartment whose every corner bore traces of Carol's tender hand and imagination. Even then, after he returned from his last trip to California, where he bade her goodbye, he was able to write the beautiful elegy for Carol, "Orpheus and Eurydice." His gift for transforming life's sorrows into poetry was intact, but he was tired and, it seems to me, maybe even a bit ashamed of always succeeding in being a magician against all odds, all catastrophes, all deaths. "What is poetry which does not save / Nations or people?" he asked in the mid-Forties. What's the use of magic that doesn't assuage despair? There was always his religious hope, his faith, sometimes dreams brought him signals of divine presence, but—we know it from the poems—despair was also one of his frequent visitors. His laughter still triumphed over the baseness of biology, but the last years made him frail. This great life had its secrets: how many times had Milosz told us in his poems that he was an "evil person"? His friends never believed it, though I think he wanted us maybe not to accept it as true it but at least to consider it more seriously. Friends are usually too well-meaning, too polite, too well-bred. They always tell you "you'll be fine," "you exaggerate"; they want to cheer you up—that's their business. Which is probably the last thing someone coping with the grave images at life's end wants to hear. The poet who decided early on that poetry was about communicating with other people, not about lofty hermeticism and language games, was dying in the silence of his solitary days and nights. One of the last humans who spoke to him in his hours of agony was an uneducated woman who took care of his small household, a wonderful person with a great heart. I like to think of it: in the vast polyphony of the almost hundred years of his dramatic existence, the ultimate sound he heard was an unschooled voice of goodness. Perhaps in this soothing voice he found something like an arch between his early idyllic childhood in the Lithuanian countryside and his closing moments; and in between there remained, bracketed out for once, the rage of modern history, the loneliness of his long exile, the violence of his struggles, of his thought, his imagination, his rebellions. I can't write a memoir of Milosz: so much was hidden in his life. Besides, he was an ecstatic poet and an ecstatic person. We'll never really know people like that. They hide their great moments of elation; they never share with others the short joys of their sudden discoveries, and the sadness when the vision fades. They thrive in solitude. With their friends they are usually correct, measured, just like everybody else. They are like a ship we sometimes see in a peaceful port: a huge immobile mass of metal covered by spots of rust, a few sailors lazily sunbathing on the deck, a blue shirt drying on a rope. One wouldn't guess that this ship was once struggling with the hurricane, barely surviving the onslaught of big waves, singing an iron song... No, I didn't know him enough. I have to return to his poems, to his essays. Adam Zagajewski, who divides his year between Krakow and Chicago, is the author of numerous books of poetry and nonfiction, including Without End and A Defense of Ardor. - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 26 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 17:44:11 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 04:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic justice In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811031005n147aa4d6lb86b9b5fdfeaeab1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12346.57146.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Aditya   I have been deliberating with myself since last night when I first read your mail, about writing to you. I must, I finally decided, for the sake of my own convictions, for the sake of India for which you often speak and perhaps for your own sake too. I hope you will understand why it was important for me to write.   It was improper of you to title your post as "Islamic Justice" when the body of the News Report draws no such generalised inference. On 22/08/08, Shivam Vij posted  with the Subject Line "Hindu terrorism in Jammu", a News Report of "Protestors attack Congress Leader". He was guilty of distortions meant to provoke divisiveness. You are guilty of the same.   Shuddha took issue with what Shivam had done. Shivam apologised.   What has been reported from Somalia is in no way "Islamic Justice". An act carried out 'in the name of Islam' does not automatically make it an 'Islamic act'. There are many practices 'in the name of Islam' which do not find sanction in 'Purist Islam'.   'Death by Stoning' is not a punishment sanctioned in the Quran. The Quran also says that no punishment should exceed the punishments specified in the Quran. 80 lashes is the punishment for adultery. But in the case of this 13 year old girl it is rape by 3 men and not adultery.   Many practices with 'tribal roots' prior to Mohammed continued after his death and some during his lifetime too. They continued during the reigns of the first 4 Khalifas and thereafter too. Today they have diminished amongst many of the concentrated Muslim societies that call themselves Islamic.   "Death by stoning" is not sanctioned amongst many Muslim societies, nor is 'death for adultery' sanctioned. It is Un-Islamic.   Amongst 'thinking' Muslim societies there is extensive discussion on how 'rape' should be evaluated as being distinctly different from 'adultery'. This has become important due to the obsfucation that had taken place between 'adultery' and 'rape'. Connectedly the '3 eyewitnesses' requirement for establishing non-sanctioned sexual union has given way in the case of 'rape' to 'witness' provided by the victim's statement, body injuries, forensic evidence from body fluids and other DNA material and also circumstantial evidence.   Just to give one another example of attempts by Muslims to do away with some degraded practices followed 'in the name of Islam', you would know that many Muslim societies have discarded the 3 simultaneous pronouncements of the word "talaaq" as sealing a divorce.   Similarly, inspite of being torn between 'individualised thought/understanding' and the pressures of 'expected allegiances' combined with 'propagated interpretations' increasing number of Muslims are re-thinking terms like "Jihad'.   The point is whether one should appreciate the struggles of Muslims who are discarding degraded practices/interpretations 'in the name of Islam' or whether one should speak and act in a manner to support them and reassure them in a manner that would not make them 'blacksheep' in the Islamic Fold.   Why am I concerned about this? Because it is important for India.   To put in in perspective the affairs of the Muslims, an excellent comparativeness is available from looking at those known as "Hindus". They struggled in doing so but discarded such degraded practices as Sati, Child Sacrifice, Human Sacrifice. Some practices that might have at some time made some sense for the design of societies at that time were judged as being discriminatory and done away with such as "eldest son being sole inheritor/dispenser" - the role of the "Karta". A similar situation exists with 'dowry' and "Hindus' are still struggling with that 'evil'.   For that matter, many of the practices that might have in principle been done away with still find themselves being practised amongst "Hindus" every now and then and here and there, some more frequently than others.   One of the most abominable practices amongst "Hindus" which I personally evaluate as having done the greatest harm to "Hinduism" is the degradation that took place in the "Varna" precept getting transformed into 'superiority of one caste over the other' (does not matter whether by birth or prfession). "Hindus" are still struggling with that decadence.   If you understand this 'struggle' to become 'better' amongst the "Hindus" then you would/should also appreciate the "struggle' to become 'better' amongst the "Muslims".   Just as a "terrorist acts" and "gegraded practices by "Hindus" or 'in the name of Hinduism' are not representative of "Hinduism" or "All Hindus", similarly "terrorist acts" and "gegraded practices by "Muslims" or 'in the name of Islam' are not representative of "Islam" or "All Muslims"   Why is this important to be understood? Because it is important for India. Muslims are a part of India. They belong to India and India belongs to them as much as these definitions and claim of relationship holds true for any other people in India. Demonising Muslims or Islam is an attack on a substantially large number of Indians.   Anyone, who by speech or action will bring harm to the integrity of India is an enemy of India. Anyone who will seek by word or action to bring around divides amongst the people of India is an enemy of India.   I do not see you as an enemy of India so it was important for me to speak to you. I hope you understand.   Kshmendra     On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty > > *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* > Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, > Monday November 3 2008 > > An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old > girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported > that she was raped by three men. > > Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the > southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim > Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones > was brought to the stadium for the killing. > > Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be > forcibly carried into the stadium. > > "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told > by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether > Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They > removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was > replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to > continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the > stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to > the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a > bystander." > > Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 > years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father > that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report > her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and > detained. None of the men accused was arrested. > > "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's > Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human > rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, > and again demonstrates the importance of international action to > investigate and document such abuses, through an international > commission of inquiry." > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 17:50:36 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:50:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <161937.8276.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> <161937.8276.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0811040420v39fea7acvc76918cb81a44ddb@mail.gmail.com> Am broadly in agreement with Shudda's mail. Just a couple of things on the general overwhelming reality of displacement. One, just a lot of the displacement of dalits and adivasis during the Nehru years and thereafter happened with relatively little attention, so is the current displacement from the crises in agriculture. This to some may not seem like displacement at all since people, particularly the young are running away from agriculture seemingly willingly but to me it is displacement none the less, and on a massive scale. For instance, operational holdings in India have declined by 17 million hectares between about 1992 and 2005 from 125 million to 108 million. Two, how are we going to deal with displacement in the medium term future, from the agr crisis, from industrialization, and from climate change. This last is going to be simply massive, largely due to sea level rise, declining water availability in the HImalayan regions, agriculture affected by climate change (as is happening in Bundelkhand). This is not merely in India but also displacement in Bangladesh in millions (sea level rise, storm surges) with varied poltiical consequences for 'us'. Like most displacements, it will affect the poor and all manner of underclasses more, but GW induced displacement has the capacity to affect everbody, differentially. Naga From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 20:37:02 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:37:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir In-Reply-To: <564b2fca0811040420v39fea7acvc76918cb81a44ddb@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70811020933h15ec5925m2c6cc535a31849e4@mail.gmail.com> <161937.8276.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <564b2fca0811040420v39fea7acvc76918cb81a44ddb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811040707j2501ea21uc2f120b4d08c2468@mail.gmail.com> thanks Dear Nagraj we really need reflections like that, we urgently need to debate on ' environment' of course via, social, and psychological that way we can intensify 'the present'. is On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Nagraj Adve wrote: > Am broadly in agreement with Shudda's mail. Just a couple of things on the > general overwhelming reality of displacement. One, just a lot of the > displacement of dalits and adivasis during the Nehru years and thereafter > happened with relatively little attention, so is the current displacement > from the crises in agriculture. This to some may not seem like displacement > at all since people, particularly the young are running away from > agriculture seemingly willingly but to me it is displacement none the less, > and on a massive scale. For instance, operational holdings in India have > declined by 17 million hectares between about 1992 and 2005 from 125 million > to 108 million. > > Two, how are we going to deal with displacement in the medium term future, > from the agr crisis, from industrialization, and from climate change. This > last is going to be simply massive, largely due to sea level rise, declining > water availability in the HImalayan regions, agriculture affected by climate > change (as is happening in Bundelkhand). This is not merely in India but > also displacement in Bangladesh in millions (sea level rise, storm surges) > with varied poltiical consequences for 'us'. Like most displacements, it > will affect the poor and all manner of underclasses more, but GW induced > displacement has the capacity to affect everbody, differentially. > > Naga > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From samhoodx at aol.com Wed Nov 5 00:12:51 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (samhoodx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:42:51 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811040328p7e0372e1t713469ad8cc436c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <905075.48377.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com><8CB0BD0A2E2C8A2-CB0-3CE5@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com><8CB0BD185327F9A-CB0-3D45@mblk-d13.sysops.aol.com> <47e122a70811040328p7e0372e1t713469ad8cc436c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CB0CC4464D4CD7-9F0-1153@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com> Inder, Thank you for these excellent insights. I wish this list had more such posts and less of the kind it is now inundated with. Sam -----Original Message----- From: inder salim Thanks dear Samhoodx your response to 'nudity' was just desirable. yes, all those who have difficulty with Nudity in art should know what they approve for themselves in the first place. and how they SEE this MARKET of ours !!!!! and i am sure they will find numerous contradictions while holding 'nudity' guilty of violating societal norms. From samhoodx at aol.com Wed Nov 5 00:15:06 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (samhoodx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:45:06 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <8CB0CC1685E60C6-9F0-FF1@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB0CC49742A11A-9F0-117D@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com> dhatri,    no, dhatri, nothing is crystal clear. i will explain what i mean. but first let me remind you that i did not address you or rajendra in anything but a respectful way. manners, which you demand from inder in your post, also demanded - from you, and in the same post - that you reciprocate the respect i had shown to you and rajendra. but that appears to have escaped you. you lacked manners, if i may say so, even in mocking me - the least i would have expected is an explanation as to why you were doing so.    now the things i find confusing:    i fail to understand why you call me "uncle sam", which is a symbol of the united states. do you think i am a representative of the united states? if you do, would you mind telling me why? if that is not what you meant, what did you?    but then you also indicate that i am inder salim. why?    by your logic, then, inder salim, whose identity seems to be known to members of this list, is a representative of the United States. why do you think that is the case? how does one know you are not a representative of the US yourself?    for that matter, how does one know you are not in fact a representative of al qaeda trying to bring about, or deepen, a communal divide in the indian academic community?    if you take a moment to read my post, which you have quoted, you will see that i did not support inder's action. i did two things in that post. i pointed out that inder had put across a certain logic, which you and rajendra appeared to have missed. in your present post, you seem to say that it is a matter of sentiment. that the sentiments of most hindus would be hurt by inder's photograph is, i think, beyond doubt. but sentiment also has its basis in the psychological and cultural domains. in other words, they can be explained. by not responding to inder's logic, you appear to have conceded defeat in the area of logic and explanation.    the second thing i did in my post - suggest that we try to clarify why something that was valued in temple decorations across India is hurtful in a performance in a temple today - was an attempt to clarify your logic. however, i can see that i have failed, and will not expect any logic in your posts from now on.    sam    -----Original Message-----  From: we wi   To: samhoodx at aol.com  Cc: reader-list at sarai.net  Sent: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:15 am  Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13    Uncle Sam,         It is not the nudity that you understand. You should watch INDER mails and LINK.   It's not that I(we) said something , you(inder) said something.  What the people on the List mean is Inder should visit some mosque of his choce(liberty has given),  and implement HIS CRAZYNESS/MADNESS practically as he did it in on a "IDOl" .  Photograph it and make available to the all users. Let everybody know, if it hurts everybody(including him) or not.    Forget about Nudity, Idol worshipping, Manners in Society for time being, Peoples feelilngs/reaction is accountable.  I hope it is clister clear now.    Dhatri.    --- On Mon, 11/3/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote:      From: samhoodx at aol.com   Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13  To: reader-list at sarai.net  Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:15 PM    correction:    the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the  same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple    today" should read:    "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a  temple  today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ."    sam    -----Original Message-----  From: samhoodx at aol.com  To: reader-list at sarai.net  Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am  Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13    hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i  am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message.  he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu  deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you  know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might  add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there  are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as  konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts,  temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated  elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not  mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in  a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or  may not mean, and why.    sam      -----Original Message-----    From: rajendra bhat     .... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at  martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture  was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.?    Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus,  of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining  hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be  civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places  of worship.!    Lot more love.          >> From: inder salim     >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal    >> Displacement from Kashmir    >> To: reader-list at sarai.net    >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM    >>    >>    >> well, dear pawan    >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra  slogan,    >> it is beyond my comprehension.    >>    >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how    >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer.    >>    >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu    >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say�A0   >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening    >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene  involved    >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any    >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this    >> question?    >>    >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our    >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason.    >>    >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join    >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject.    >>    >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List,    >>    >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a    >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the  workers    >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits.    >>    >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are  ambigous    >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and    >> profoundity at the same time.    >>    >> lot of love    >> and regards    >> is    >>    >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside    >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from    >> all this    >>    >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani      >> wrote:    >> > IInder,    >> >    >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef    >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in  Martand    >> Temple.    >> >    >> > Pawan    >> >    >> >        _________________________________________  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.  Critiques & Collaborations  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in  the subject header.  To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>;                From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 02:18:17 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 02:18:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Studs Terkel Message-ID: <48c2916d0811041248g62f395ccs6c5f96c30e6dddcd@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Here is an obituary of Studs Terkel from the guardian, who died aged 96 on the 31st. I remember reading 'Working' for the first time and the powerful feeling of intellectual generosity it left me with. Those of us who attempt to make writing about lives we encounter as our practice can only stop and marvel at the ease and fluency and richness with which he approached talk and people. best Aarti http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/01/studs-terkel-usa Studs Terkel — master chronicler of American life in the 20th century, veteran radical and vibrant soul of the midwestern capital of Chicago — has died, aged 96. To register him as "writer and broadcaster" would be like calling Louis Armstrong a "trumpeter" or the Empire State Building an "office block". Strictly and sparsely speaking, it is true. He is best known to Americans as the voice that asked the questions on the Studs Terkel Show which ran for 45 years, syndicated from the WFMT radio station of downtown Chicago. The tapes of his interviews take up rack after rack at WFMT; there are 9,000 of them, and Studs was setting about a catalogue when he fell ill. The names of his guests, written in magic marker on the side of each tape, constitute the recent history not only of America but of the world: Simone de Beauvoir, Margot Fonteyn, Arthur Miller, JK Galbraith, Tennessee Williams, Andrés Segovia, Margaret Mead, Leonard Bernstein, Jacob Bronowski and so on — including Bertrand Russell, recorded at the age of 90 during the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. As you listen, you know in your bones that each person has never told their story as cogently or as fully before and will never do so again, for that was Terkel's art. He was maestro of that most precious craft in the practice of both journalism and history: listening. He was the world's greatest — and loudest-mouthed — listener. He even called his 1973 autobiography Talking to Myself. But this distinction did much more for the archives of history than bequeath unrepeatable recordings of the great, the good and the gregarious. Terkel's obsessive interest in the propulsion of people's lives was at its most curious and passionate — and his subjects at their most brilliantly articulate — when he was dealing with everyday people, from whatever background: carpenters, judges, hub-cap fitters, priests, admirals, sharecroppers, models, signalmen, tennis players, war veterans and cooks. His book Coming of Age: the History of our Century by Those Who've Lived It (1995), was made up of interviews with elderly people. It is a vivid record of an America which, for the most part, is now distant if not passed away along with Terkel himself. People call Terkel's business "oral history", but it is more like the weaving of a fabulous verbal tapestry, the threads of which are human preoccupations. It is the rich art of taking the vernacular, and making it eternal. Such a process does not merely record the details that keep people's minds busy, it gives them value. Terkel harvested not only the most complete American history of this century, but the most compassionate. In a way, Terkel's story is best told through that of Hobart Foote. When one asked Terkel which of all 9,000 interviewees he valued most, the answer was this one, which made it into a book, Working (1974). Foote lived in a mobile home near the Illinois-Indiana state line with his wife, a Bible and little else but "the clangor of trains, Gary-to-Chicago bound". The area is a great mesh of railroad lines, criss-crossing the roads. And so Foote talks about the "train problem" he has getting to work, since his journey is punctuated by so many railway crossings and long waits for lumbering freight trains to pass, and if he arrives a minute after nine, he gets docked for the whole hour. And so Foote's drive to work is a daily adventure, driving at speed to a detailed but flexible system across the assault course of railway crossings, changing the route according to which train is late or on time, which crossing shut and which open. "It's a game you're playing," he tells Studs. "Catch this light at a certain time, and then you've got the next light. But if there's a train there, I take off down Cicero Avenue and watch those crossings. And if I make her okay, you've got a train just over on the Burnham line you gotta watch for. But it's generally fast ..." Why does Terkel remember this especially? "Because it's a great suspense tale. An adventure thriller through the railroads every morning, so this man doesn't get docked for the whole hour. The principle is that ordinary people have extraordinary thoughts — I've always believed that — and that ordinary people can speak poetically. Also that no one else speaks like that and that there is no other person like that in the world." Terkel used to recommend a poem to people he met, called Chicago, by Carl Sandburg: "Hog Butcher for the world / Tool-maker, Stacker of Wheat / Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler / Stormy, husky, brawling / City of the Big Shoulders ..." This was the city to which Terkel's family moved from the New York Bronx in 1920, when he was nine years old. He had been born in New York the year the Titanic sunk: "I'm a Titanic baby," he used to say. His real name was Louis; "Studs" came later, pinched from Studs Lonigan, title of a Chicago 1930s novel by James T Farrell. If America consists of two great coasts, the south and a vast real-life in-between, then Chicago is the capital of that in-between. It was, and is, the capital of work, the cast-iron, steel-and-glass leveller of men; the city where dust from the "subway" system elevated above the streets on iron stilts showers down on the bipeds beneath regardless of status. Chicago, said Terkel, "is the country. It is America, it is a metaphor for everything." His mother Annie opened a boarding hotel for migrant workers — roughnecks, political agitators and vagrants, by whom the young boy was captivated. "I used to listen to their stories for hours and hours. The good and the bad, coming through my own house, and I couldn't hear enough of it." The young Studs was also entranced by the sounds of jazz and blues — "to which people would dance on a dime" — coming out from the the smoky, sweaty music halls. "I used to stand by the door, on the sidewalk, and listen." Later, Studs would guide the careers of Big Bill Broonzy and other blues stars, and befriend Billie Holiday. "She was really something," Studs recalled, "with that gardenia in her hair." Holiday once sang Willow Weep for Me for Terkel and nine other people. "We weren't weeping for her, we were weeping for ourselves," he later said, "That's an artist." Terkel went to study law at Chicago University, graduating in 1934. "I was miserable," he recalled, and conceived an ambition to join the civil service. But after an unsuccessful interview with the FBI, he failed to qualify and abandoned that aspiration. From then on, Studs said, his progress was "an accumulation of accidents". A perforated eardrum restricted his war years to "limited service", and he was drafted into the remarkable Works Project Administration scheme, assigned to chart the nooks, crannies, ways and means of his beloved Chicago. It was a blue-collar town built on steel mills, stockyards, the railroad and the construction of its own mighty self. This is how Terkel saw it: "It is in every way a city of steel. A real city. New York is many cities at once. Chicago is one city. The blacks from the deep South didn't go to New York, they came to Chicago. And the Irish, and the East Europeans and the Koreans, to make one big steel city. It's no coincidence that the skyscraper came from Chicago. It is the architectural Athens of America." The war over, Terkel became involved in radical theatre and radio soap operas, playing bit parts — "usually criminals or gangsters". He also worked as a DJ, playing his favourite music: jazz, blues, folk and opera. With the advent of television, in 1945 Terkel was allocated his own chat show, Studs's Place, set in a Chicago diner, but it was terminated when his political views came to the attention of HUAC, the House Un-American Activities Committee, which shared the anti-communist views of Senator Joseph McCarthy. The committee's veto sent Terkel back to radio. He heard Woody Guthrie on air one day, asked what station he was listening to, and the answer was WMFT. There he went, in 1953, and there he stayed. While celebrities graced his programme, ordinary Americans populated his books. The first publication was Division Street America (1966), about race in Chicago. The white Appalachian hillibillies and the black Mississippi sharecroppers did not meet on the city's streets, but they did in Terkel's book, explaining their views of themselves and of each other. Hard Times (1970) looked back on the Depression. Here were people like Dynamite Garland from Cleveland who eventually found work in a bakery and lived off eclairs that slipped onto the floor (''roaches all over the floor, big roaches''). Although bankrupt and living with her husband and two children in a garage on $14 a week, she nevertheless blew her first $65 on a fur coat. In a similar vein was The Good War (1985), which had Americans look back at their hopes, jokes, fears and survival mechanisms during the second world war. But the most bountiful harvest of humanity had by then been gathered in Working. Terkel won a Pulitzer prize for these stories, like that of Hobart Foote, or Babe Secoli the supermarket checker, who described customers engaged in something less like shopping than dodgem cars with trolleys, and garbage man Nick Salerno, discoursing on his long experience of how people pack their rubbish: "You get just like the milkman's horse — used to it." In 1981, American Dreams Lost and Found was published, including a remarkable interview with a former president of the Ku Klux Klan, CP Ellis. But shortly afterwards came something of a heresy. The Great Divide: Second Thoughts on the American Dream (1988) was Terkel ill-at-ease, in a book about rifts across society, not just between "haves, have somewhats and have-nots", but race and religion. Coming of Age, was something of a valedictory address, not only by its dramatis personae but by Terkel himself. Kurt Vonnegut called its cast of characters "uncelebrated but undefeated, brave and just Americans whose long lifetimes are likely to expire along with a notoriously disgraceful century". In its pages, the Americans of an epoch bid their successors farewell - people like Carolyn Peery of Cleveland, aged 99, who remembers her mother in law, "born into slavery ... jumping up and down saying 'God bless Mr Lincoln. God bless Mr Lincoln!'". Best of all, Terkel liked the ghost-town storekeeper in Kentucky who says: "The last flicker of my life will be against something I don't think has to be." Terkel commuted from near-northside Chicago to the radio station on what he called the "Geriatric Express" bus. He engaged his fellow passengers in conversation, aware that he was often considered "some old nut", feeling like "the Ancient Mariner" and worried that America is "starting to suffer from a sort of collective Alzheimer's disease". But when I met him, Studs's mental agility at the age of 83 was exhausting company. His face was puckish but kind, and flickered between reflection and mischief. He arrived at a club he liked for lunch without the obligatory tie. It was duly kitted out by the girl at reception, and knotted by Terkel around the outside of his jacket collar. He recommended a stiff Stoli Martini to kick off and "a little wine" to follow. The journey to and from his office was through a subterranean labyrinth of corridors and shopping arcades linking the WMFT building with the tower containing the luncheon club. Besides the elevator door was an Irish attendant he knew, and they burst into song. Then there was an extraordinary ritual, involving an employee at Johnny's Shoe Shine. "Another day!" bellowed Terkel, from quite a distance. "Another triumph!" boomed back the reply. Terkel disliked this nether region beneath the skyscrapers. "It's supposed to tell you that you're just a little cog in a big machine," he objected, "Bring back the man!" His radio broadcasts finished in 1998, and the following year his wife Ida died after 60 years of happy marriage. But the books continued: two on faith, in 2001 and 2003; two on entertainment - The Spectator: Talk About Movies and Plays With Those Who Make Them (1999) and And They All Sang: Adventures of an Eclectic Disc Jockey (2005); a memoir, Touch and Go (2007); and - still to come - PS Further Thoughts From a Lifetime of Listening. His son Dan survives him. • Studs (Louis) Terkel, broadcaster and oral historian, born May 16 1912; died October 31 2008 From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 03:57:35 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 03:57:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A bried history of the indian cinema industry Message-ID: <48c2916d0811041427k27bffb70p4ddff1d8caf98f27@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, This is a synoptic chronology someone has made of the history of the Indian cinema industry. Its quite something in terms of the detail and the scope which is almost ten decades. Enjoy! best A http://www.hamaraforums.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3689.html 1907 : J.F. Madan opens the Elphinstone Picture Palace in Calcutta, the first of his cinema chain. Pathe establishes office in India. 1908 : Abdulallay Esoofally, a South Asian and Singaporean traveling showman starts exhibiting in India. 1910 : Dadasaheb Phalke attends a screening of The Life of Christ at P.B. Mehta�s American - Indian Cinema and decides to become a filmmaker himself. 1911 : Anandi Bose, Debi Bose and others start the Aurora Cinema Co. showing films in tents as part of a variety bill. The Coronation Durbar of King George V held in Delhi is filmed by several Indians. (S.N. Patankar, Hiralal Sen, Madan Theatres) 1912 : Two amateurs N.G. Chitre and R.G. Torney attempt a narrative film, about 1500 feet long, of a play - Pundalik. 1913 : Phalke�s Raja Harishchandra, 3700 feet long, opens on 21st April to a select audience and opens commercially on 3rd May in Bombay�s Coronation Cinematograph. 1914 : Phalke shows his first three features - Raja Harishchandra, Mohini Bhasmasur and Satyavan Savitri in London. R. Venkiah and R.S. Prakash build Madras� first permanent cinema, The Gaiety. 1915 : First South Indian feature - R. Nataraja Mudaliar�s Gopal Krishna. 1916 : Universal Pictures set up Hollywood�s first Indian Agency. 1917 : J.F. Madan�s Satyavadi Raja Harishchandra is the first feature made in Calcutta. Phalke makes a short film about filmmaking, How Films Are Made. 1918 : The Indian Cinematograph Act modeled on that of Britain defines the term of censorship and cinema licensing. Phalke�s Hindustan Film Company is established. Patankar�s Ram Vanvas is the first Indian Serial with a length of 20,000 feet. 1919 : Baburao Painter starts the Maharashtra Film company at Kolhapur. Dwarkadas Sampat forms the Kohinoor Film Company. 1920 : Film Censor Boards set up in Bombay, Madras, Calcutta and Rangoon. Ardheshir Irani starts his first studio, Star Film Company. Nala Damayanti is first International Co-production. Suchet Singh, who had trained in Hollywood releases Shakuntala starring Dorothy Kingdom. The Bengali Film Weekly Bijoli starts. 1921 : Kohinoor�s Bhakta Vidur (1921) runs foul of the censors as its protagonist bears more than an uncanny resemblance to Mahatma Gandhi. Dhiren Ganguly makes the Anti-West satire England Returned. R.S. Prakash starts the Star of the East Film Company. In Calcutta, Anandi Bose starts Aurora Film Corporation, a distribution company. 1922 : Entertainment Tax on Film exhibition is levied in Calcutta. Rewashankar Pancholi starts Empire Film Distributors in Karachi and Lahore, importing American films. 1923 : Entertainment tax of 12-� % is levied in Bombay. The Saurashtra Kinemograph is set up in Rajkot. The elite literary journal Bharati (founded in 1877) carries a serialized history of Bengali cinema. 1924 : Dhiren Ganguli is expelled by the Nizam from Hyderabad for exhibiting Razia Begum. India�s first periodical exclusively devoted to cinema Mouj Majah (Gujarati) is launched in Bombay by J.K. Dwivedi. Nanubhai Desai and others start Saraswati Film. Maneklal Patel starts Krishna Film. Kamala Movietone started in Lahore. 1925 : The first major film adaptation of the social reform novel - Baburao Painter�s Savkari Pash. Fatima Begum, probably the first Indian woman producer, starts her production company and debuts with Bulbul-e-Parastan. Sharda Film is started and formalizes the stunt film genre. The Indo-German co-production The Light of Asia is released abroad to great critical acclaim. The Madurai Bala Shanmughananda Sabha is started dominating pre-independence Tamil Theatre and film. 1926 : Foundation of the Punjab Film Corporation in Lahore, inaugurating the Punjabi Film Industry. Ardheshir Irani starts Imperial Films in partnership with Abdulallay Esoofally. Vande Mataram Ashram is censored and briefly banned. The journal Photoplay starts in Calcutta. 1927 : Indian Kinema Arts Studio starts in Calcutta. On October 6, Government of India announces appointment of a Committee of Enquiry, The Indian Cinematograph Committee. Film journals Movie Mirror (Madras) and Kinema (Bombay) are started. 1928 : The Indian Cinematograph Committee ( 1927-28) publishes its report. The British administration ignores the report. A.R. Kardar starts the United Players Corporation in Lahore. First Malayalam feature - J.C. Daniel�s Vigathakumaram. R. Padmanabhan founds the associated Film Studio in Madras. 1929 : Wall Street crashes ending negotiations about a major Hollywood expansion into India. Several important studios are started among them Prabhat film Company in Kolhapur, Ranjit Movietone in Bombay, British Dominion Films Studio and Aurora Film corporation in Calcutta and General Pictures Corporation in Madras. The Gujarati film periodical Chitrapat and the Moving Picture Monthly are launched in Bombay. Universal�s Melody of Love is the first sound feature released in India at the Elphinstone Picture Palace. Bengali monthly Deepali launched. 1930 : Sailajananda Mukherjee starts the Bengali film weekly Bioscope reporting on the Hollywood, Bombay and Calcutta film industries and publishing reviews, pre-release synopses of films, industrial surveys and occasionally essays about technical and aesthetic issues. Ambalal Patel and Chimanlal Desai start Sagar Film. Gubbi Veeranna starts production with the Gubbi-Karnataka Films Corporation at the Malleshwaram Studios in Bangalore. First Film society in India known as Punjab Cinema Art Society. 1931 : Alam Ara is India�s first sound film. B.N. Sircar founds New Theatres. Several Madan Theatres productions follow in quick successions with vastly superior sound systems. Pancholi�s Empire Talkie Distributors acquires rights to RKO - Radio productions and RCA - Photophone sound equipment. The Bengali film weeklies Chitralekha and Batayan and literary quarterly Parichay start. 1932 : First sound feature in Gujarati (Narasinh Mehta). The East India film Co. starts in Calcutta pioneering Bengali, Tamil and Telegu filmmaking. The Motion Picture Society of India (MPSI) is set up to represent the Indian Film Industry. Hindi weekly Cinema Sansar launched in Bombay. In Bengal the monthly Chitrapanji includes serious essays by filmmakers. 1933 : Prabhat Studio moves to Pune. Its Sairandhri processed and printed in Germany becomes India�s first colour film. Kolhapur Cinetone is started. Wadia Movietone is founded. Vijay Bhatt and others start Prakash Pictures. Vel Pictures and Tamil Nadu talkies are launched in Madras. Himanshu Rai�s Karma is premiered in London. The air - conditioned Regal cinema opens in Bombay. 1934 : Bombay Talkies is established by Himansu Rai and Devika Rani. East India Film Company�s Seeta directed by Debaki Bose is shown at Venice Film Festival. First sound features in Oriya (Seeta Bibaha) and Kannada (Bhakta Dhruva). Seeta Kalyanam made by Vel Pictures is the first sound feature made in Madras. Ranjit Studio�s Toofan Mail is the Hindi Cinema�s first major success in the stunt film genre. Hindi film periodical Chitrapat is launched in Delhi. Bengali film weekly Ruprekha starts. 1935 : First All-India Motion Picture Convention is held. New Theatres Devdas directed by P.C. Barua becomes reference point in Hindi and Bengali Cinema. New Theatres� Dhoop Chaon establishes playback singing. Launch of the seminal film monthly Filmindia. The Quetta earthquake takes place on May 21. Its after effects are filmed by P.V. Pathy. First films in Punjabi (Sheila) and Assamese (Joymati). Madras United Artisits started at Salem. First Trade journal started by Motion Picture Society of India. 1936 : Amar Jyoti is shown in Venice. Master Vinayak and cameraman Pandurang Naik co-found Huns Pictures. Jaddanbai starts Sangeet Films with films featuring her daughter Nargis as a child artiste. Sohrab Modi and Rustom Modi start Minerva Movietone. The Bengal Motion Picture Association is formed in Calcutta. The second All-India Motion Picture Convention held at Madras. Ardershir Irani sets up cinecolour process laboratory with Wolf M. Henius as chief technician. 1937 : Indian Motion Picture Producers Association (IMPPA) founded in Bombay. Sant Tukaram receives special jury mention at Venice Film Festival. Imperial Film Company releases colour film Kisan Kanya using Cinecolour process. First songless film - J.B.H. Wadia�s Naujawan. The Amateur Cine Society of India formed in Bombay by P.V. Pathy, Stanley Jepson and Rudi Van Leyden. Bengali Film weekly Kheyali founded. 1938 : South Indian Film Chamber of Commerce formed in Madras. Indian Motion Picture Distributors Association set up in Bombay. Duniya Na Mane ( 1937) shown in Venice. Bombay Talkies makes probably the first officially commissioned ad film on Lever�s Dalda cooking oil for the Lintas Advertising Agency. The first Malayalam sound film, Balan. The Indian Screen Gazette is started by Wadia Movietone. P.V. Pathy films a three-reeler on the Haripura Congress for the Gazette. 1939 : Indian Film Industry celebrates its silver jubilee and holds Indian Motion Picture Congress in Bombay bringing together allied unions and trade associations to discuss problems. Vauhuni Pictures is started by B.N. Reddy and Gemini by S.S. Vasan. Film Industry, a trade newspaper is started in Bombay. 1940 : Film Advisory Board set up in Bombay to mobilize public support through war propaganda films. Himanshu Rai dies. Devika Rani takes over production control of Bombay Talkies. P.K. Atre, Master Vinayak and others start Navyug Chitrapat with public finance. 1941 : Wadia Movietone�s Court Dancer (English) released at Metro in Bombay and sent to the USA. D.M. Pancholi�s Khazanchi becomes a trendsetter for its foot-tapping music by Ghulam Haider. First Pushtu Film - Sarhad pictures Laila Majnu. V. Shantaram splits with his partners at Prabhat. He briefly joins Film Advisory Board as Chief Producer after his predecessor Alex Shaw leaves for London. 1942 : Production hit due to shortages of raw stock. Government restricts lengths of films to 11,000 feet to conserve stock for war propaganda films. Mehboob Khan, Shantaram, Homi Wadia and A.R. Kardar set up their independent Film Production Units. The Bombay Film Society is formed. First film in Sindhi, Ekta and Marwari, Nazrana. V.P. Sathe and others start the journal Sound featuring politics, fiction, reviews and essays on Indian Film. 1943 : Government imposes control of supply of raw stock. Exhibition of �approved� propaganda films made compulsory under Defence of India Rules 44A. Kismet one of the biggest hits in Indian Film history is released. Information Films of India is started. K. Ramnoth starts the Cine Technicians Association (CTA) of South India. Court Dancer finds release in the USA. Kailash Mukhopadhyay starts the seminal Bengali Film monthly, Rupamancha. 1944 : Government appoints Film Advisory Committee to regulate distribution of raw film. Increase in Entertainment Tax in Bombay, Madras, United Province and Central Province. Death of Dadasaheb Phalke. 1945 : Film Trade representatives resign from the Film Advisory Committee. Control of distribution of raw film stock removed. 1946 : Information Films of India disbanded. Dharti ke Laal produced by Indian People�s Theatre Association (IPTA) and directed by K.A. Abbas wins critical acclaim at home and abroad. Chetan Anand�s Neecha Nagar shown at the Cannes Film Festival. Dr. Kotnis ki Amar Kahani made as a war-effort film. Ranakdevi establishes the Gujarati Cinema as a financially viable industry. 1947 : Vijay Bhatt�s Ram Rajya (1943), A.R. Kardar�s Shah Jehan(1946) and V.Shantaram�s Dr. Kotnis ki Amar Kahani shown at Canadian National Exhibition in Totonto. AVM Film Co. starts with Nam Iruvar. Paul Zils and Fali Billimoria start the Documentary Unit - India. Udaya Studios is the first film studio in Kerala. Satyajit Ray, Chidananda Das Gupta and others start the Calcutta Film Society. Foundation of the Bengali film weekly Rupanjali. Deaths of Master Vinayak, K.L. Saigal. 1948 : Government revives the production of documentaries and newsreels. S.S. Vasan�s Chandralekha is his first major hit in Hindi. Uday Shankar�s Kalpana is applauded in India and abroad for its innovation and artistry. RK Films with Raj Kapoor as Producer and Director debuts with Aag. Ajit is made on 16mm Kodachrome and blown up to 35mm. Nehru announces a freeze on construction of movie theatres. The Bengali film monthly Chitrabani is initiated. 1949 : June 30. Government re-introduces compulsory exhibition of �approved� documentary films. Countrywide closure of cinemas in protest against the Government�s taxation policy. Entertainment Tax is raised to 50% in the Central Provinces and 75% in West Bengal. Indian Cinematograph 1918 amended to include new censorship classification for �Adult� and �Unrestricted� exhibitions of films. Film Enquiry Committee appointed under chairmanship of S.K. Patil. Films Division is set up. Dharti ke Lal is the first film to receive widespread release in the U.S.S.R. Dev Anand and Chetan Anand start Navketan Productions. 1950 : Various Film Trade Organizations confer to decide upon formation of Film Federation of India (FFI) as an apex body. Death of Rai Bahadur Chuni Lall, President of IMPAA and MPSI and one of the architects of FFI. The Pakistan Government levies a tax of Rs 1 per foot on all imported Indian films. 1951 : FFI formed with Chandulal Shah its first president. The Film Enquiry Committee submits its report. Formation of Central Board of Film Censors with B.N. Sircar representing the Film Industry. Russian director Pudovkin and actor Cherkasov visit India traveling to Bombay, Calcutta and Madras to meet Indian Film Makers. Guru Dutt makes his directorial debut with Navketan�s Baazi. The weekly newspaper Screen is set up by the Indian Express Group. 1952 : First International Film Festival held in India traveling to Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi and Madras. Parliament passes the Cinematograph Act of 1952 replacing 1918 Act though with little changes. A film delegation lead by Chandulal Shah visits Hollywood to study its working and to meet prominent filmmakers there. Parasakti, the most famous DMK film is released. Colour Films Aan and Jhansi ki Rani are made. Filmfare claiming to be �first serious effort in film journalism in India� launched. Hindi tabloid Cinema begins publication. West Pakistan bans import of Indian Films. Bombay Talkies ceases production. 1953 : Censorship rules amended for re-certification of films every five years and for depositing a copy of the script or film with the Censor Board. Prabhat Studio ceases production. The Cinematograph Act is amended extending the power of various authorities to suspend exhibition of certified films. The Film Federation of India accepts an Advertising Code. The Trade Weekly Trade Guide is started. Maiden Filmfare Awards are inaugurated. 1954 : P.K. Atre�s Marathi Film Shyamchi Aayee bags the first President�s Gold Medal as the Best feature Film of 1953. Bimal Roy�s Do Bigha Zameen also made in 1953 gets special mention at Cannes. Indian Film Festival held in the Soviet Union. Awaara (1951) is a major hit in the USSR. Government publishes its decision on the S.K. Patil Enquiry Committee Recommendations. K.A. Abbas�s film Munna is the second songless film. Talks between the Film Federation of India and the Government fail over All-India Radio�s policy of broadcasting film songs without crediting sources, driving producers to Radio Ceylon. The compulsory exhibition of �approved� films (Government propaganda films) in Madras is declared unlawful by the Supreme Court. Last ditch effort to save Bombay Talkies - Badbaan fails. Death of Baburao Painter. 1955 : Pather Panchali directed by Satyajit Ray has its world premier at Museum of Modern Art, New York. Sangeet Natak Akademi organizes film seminar in Delhi at which prominent film personalities participate. Festivals of Indian Cinema in Beijing and London. The Children�s Film Society is set up. The South Indian Film Chamber of Commerce starts The Journal of the Film Chamber. The High Court at Andhra Pradesh grants an interim stay on the law of compulsory exhibition of �approved� films and on the show tax. 1956 : Pather Panchali wins President�s Gold Medal as Best Film of 1955. It also wins an award at Cannes as Best Human Document. Silver Jubilee of the Indian Talkie (1931-56) celebrated in Bombay. The Government refuses to make its �approved� compulsory propaganda films available free of charge to exhibitors. The freeze on construction of new cinemas in Bombay is lifted. The Kerala Film Chamber is started in Cochin. The Andhra Film Journal is launched in Vijaywada. Hindi journal Film Sangeet published. Rossellini starts work on India 57. Despite major Government support and funds, his visa is allowed to expire after a variety of controversies including allegations that he infringed local moral codes. 1957 : Satyajit Ray�s Aparajito (1956) wins the Golden Lion at Venice Film Festival. K.A. Abbas makes the first Indo-Soviet co-production Pardesi. RK Films� Jagte Raho wins Grand Prix at the Karlovy Vary Festival. Kabuliwala receives a special mention for music in Berlin. Raw stock is declared an essential commodity and its import is centrally controlled. The Cinematograph Bill intended to start a National Film Board, Production Bureau and Film Institute is withdrawn. Chidananda Das Gupta, Satyajit Ray and others start the Indian Film Quarterly. 1958 : Mother India wins an Oscar nomination for Best Foreign Film and loses to Fellini�s Nights of Caberia by a solitary vote. Nargis wins Best Actress for the film at Karlovy Vary Festival. Do Aankhen Barah Haath wins the President�s Gold Medal for Best Feature of 1957. It also wins a Silver Bear at Berlin and the Samuel Goldwyn Award for Best foreign film. Ajantrik is shown in Cannes, out of competition. Death of D.N. Sampath, founder of Kohinoor Talkies. 1959 : Pather Panchali runs for over seven months at the Fifth Avenue Playhouse, New York and sets a record for foreign films released in the United States. Federation of Film Societies formed with Satyajit Ray as President. India�s first film in cinemascope, Kaagaz ke Phool. 1960 : Film Finance Corporation (FFC) formed with authorized capital of Rs 1 crore. The Government of India acquires Prabhat Studios to set up The Film Institute of India. The Institute for Film Technology is started in Madras. The Hindustan Photo Film manufacturing Co. starts making B&W X-ray film. Ranadheera Kanteerava is the first big Kannada hit establishing its star, Rajkumar. K.Asif�s Mughal-e-Azam hits the screen after almost 10 years in the making and is a resounding success. Gandhian Sarvodaya workers start a series of protests against indecent film posters and hoardings. The weekly tabloid Movieland is launched in Madras. 1961 : Mrinal Sen�s Baishey Sravan shown at National Film Theatre in London draws great critical acclaim. First Rajasthani film, Babasa Ri Laadi. 1962 : Second International Film Festival is held in New Delhi. Ray makes his first film in colour, Kanchenjunga. Pakistan bans Indian films in East Pakistan hitting the Bengali Cinema pretty hard. Indian Film Culture, the journal of the Federation of Film Societies of India is launched in Calcutta. 1963 : Indian Film Industry celebrates its golden jubilee. The Indian Motion Picture Export Corporation (IMPEC) is formed. The first Indian Merchant-Ivory Film, The Householder. Barnouw and Krishnaswamy�s Indian Film is published. The Journal of the CTA of South India, a Madras based monthly is started. It is probably the first technical film journal in India and reports on the work of major technicians in the South. 1964 : National Film Archive of India set up in Pune. The Film Institute at Adyar, Madras starts. First Indian film shot extensively abroad - Raj Kapoor�s Sangam. Report on Indian Cinema for UNESCO by Jerzy Toeplitz, President of FIAF. First Kashmiri Film Naizraat. Death of Guru Dutt. 1965 : Dev Anand�s Company Navketan produces jointly with Pearl Buck an American version of Guide based on R.K. Narayan�s novel and directed by Ted Danielowski. The International Film Festival of India turns competitive. 1966 : Ramu Kariat�s Chemeen wins the President�s Gold Medal as Best Feature of 1965, the first Malayalam Film to win the honour. Ritwik Ghatak joins the Film Institute of India. Karnataka initiates a scheme to subsidize all films made in the State. The initial subsidy is Rs 50,000 for a B&W and Rs 1,00,000 for a colour film. The first film in Dogri, Kumar Kuldip�s Gallan Hoyian Beetiyan. 1967 : Hindustan Photo Films makes India self sufficient in B&W and sound negative film. Around the World, first 70mm Indian Film. Start of the Bengali film Monthly Chitrabikshan. M.G. Ramachandran is shot at and injured by co-star M.R. Radha. The Vividh Bharati Channel on All-India Radio goes commercial in Bombay, Pune and Nagpur. 1968 : Month long retrospective of Indian Films organized by B.D. Garga opens at Palais de Chaillot, Cinamatheque Francaise. Bombay Cinema Houses close in protest against Maharshtra State taxation policy. The Khosla Committee submits report on censorship to the Government. K.A. Abbas�s Char Shaher Ek kahani sparks a major censorship controversy. A manifesto for New Indian Cinema is issued by Mrinal Sen and Arun Kaul, advocating a state sponsored author-cinema. The State owned Jyoti-Chitraban studio is inaugurated in Kahilipara, Guwahati, Assam. 1969 : Mrinal Sen�s Bhuvan Shome in Hindi becomes a trendsetter for low budget offbeat films. In the wake of its commercial success FFC declares its policy to back low budget offbeat films. Uski Roti directed by Mani Kaul also produced by the FFC. Aradhana makes Rajesh Khanna a megastar. Publication of P.Parrains�s Regards sur le cinema indien in Paris. First Satyajit Ray retrospective held at the Cinematheque, Paris. Deaths of S.S. Vasan and Ardheshir Irani. 1970 : Pattabai Rama Reddy�s Sanskara becomes path breaker for low budget Kannada cinema. Devika Rani is the first recipient of the Dadasaheb Phalke Award. English gossip magazine Stardust launched. Close Up (no. 5/6) publishes a special number on �The Indian film Scene.� Journal of the Kerala Film Chamber starts. Firoze Rangoonwala comes out with Indian Filmography: Silent and Hindi Films 1897-1969. 1971 : Agreement between the Indian Government and the MPEAA is allowed to expire. The directive to the FFC to sponsor independent film-making is written into its official objectives. Shantata! Court Chalu Aahe starts the New Indian Cinema Movement in Marathi. Deaths of Debaki Bose and K. Asif 1972 : First art house cinema opened by the FFC. First features in Manipuri (Matamgi Manipur) and Coorgi (Nada Manne Nada Koolu). MGR is expelled from the DMK and forms the ADMK. The first co-operative run by technicians, The Chitralekha Co-op, starts production with Adoor Gopalakrishnan�s debut Swayamwaram. The Malayalam film weekly Nana starts. Do Gaz Zameen ke Neeche establishes the Ramsay brothers and the horror genre in Hindi. Deaths of Prithviraj Kapoor, Geeta Dutt and Meena Kumari. Pakeezah goes on to become a big hit after Meena Kumari�s death. 1973 : The FFC becomes channelising agency for import and distribution of raw stock. The Government imposes 250% import duty on raw film. First Haryanvi Film (Beera Shera). Bobby reinvigorates the love story genre. Zanjeer launches Amitabh Bachchan as the �angry young man.� Shyam Benegal�s Ankur is a commercial success starting the middle-of-the-road cinema of the independently financed, commercially designed art-house movie, a genre that soon dominates state-sponsored film and television. Launch of the Bombay based weekly trade paper Film Information providing the most reliable listings of Hindi Cinema. 1974 : Hindustan Photo Films starts limited production of positive colour stock. The Film Festival of India becomes an annual event. The Film Institute of India is registered as an autonomous society and is merged with the TV training centre to become the Film and Television Institute of India (FTII). 1975 : A new agreement with the MPEAA means that US films can be imported again. Sholay, India�s first film in 70mm stereophonic sound and perhaps India�s biggest cult film is released and breaks box-office records. The other big surprise hit of the year is Jai Santoshi Ma. The Bengali film fortnightly Anandalok starts. Death of S.D. 1976 : Strict censorship of films during the Emergency imposed by Indira Gandhi. Amrit Nahata�s Kissa Kursi ka, a satire on power politics destroyed. The Committee on Public Undertaking attacks the FFC art-film policy. The journal Film Blaze starts in Bombay. Death of Mukesh. 1978 : The Orissa Film Development Corporation announces the financing of �Janta Cinema Houses� in rural and semi-urban areas. Panorama of Indian Cinema at the Carthage Film Festival. The Malayalam film journal Chitrabhoomi is started by the owners of the mainstream daily Mathrubhoomi. 1980 : FFC and Indian Motion Picture Export Corporation merge to form the National Film Development Corporation (NFDC). The Lotus Cinema hired by the FFC becomes Bombay�s only venue for art-house films beginning with Bimal Dutt�s Kasturi (1978). K.S. Karanth�s Report of the Working Group on National Film Policy is published and ignored by the Government. Independent Filmmakers start the Forum for Better Cinema and ask the Government to ask Satyajit Ray to head the organization. Ray turns down the offer. While on Ray, a retrospective of his films is held at the Indian International Film Festival. Mrinal Sen retrospective is held at the National film Theatre, London. The journal Cinema Vision India starts in Bombay with an issue on Silent Cinema in India. Deaths of Mohd. Rafi, Uttam Kumar, Sahir Ludhianvi. 1981 : Indian Film Industry celebrates the golden jubilee of the Indian Talkie. Formation of the short-lived Indian Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Science (IAMPAS). A three part package of Indian Cinema - pre-Ray, a Ray retrospective and New Indian Cinema tours the United States. Special issue on Indian Cinema by the Journal for Asian literature. Death of Nargis. 1982 : Adoor Gopalakrishnan�s Elipattahyam wins prestigious British Film Institute Award. Shekar Kapur�s debut Masoom. Asian games held in Delhi provide the occasion to start telecasting of colour programmes on TV. N.T. Rama Rao starts the Telegu Desam Party. The Tamil Film weekly Gemini Cinema starts. First films in Brijbhasha (Brij Bhoomi) and Malvi (Bhadwa Mata). 1983 : Mrinal Sen�s Kharij wins special Special Jury Prize at Cannes. Bhanu Athaiya becomes the first Indian to win an Oscar for costumes designed for Richard Attenborough�s Gandhi (1982). Panorama of Indian Cinema at the Centre Pompidou, Paris. First film in Garhwali (Jagwal) and Khasi (Ka Lawei Ha Ki Ktijong Ngi). The Karnataka state subsidy to films is increased to Rs one lakh for B&W and Rs 1.5 lakh for colour. 1985 : Indian Cinema Season at Pesaro Film Festival, Italy. 1986 : Death of Smita Patil. 1987 : The NFDC starts the quarterly journal Cinema in India. Death of Kishore Kumar. 1988 : The journals Cinemaya (A quarterly on Asian film) and Deep Focus start. Death of Raj Kapoor. 1989 : Death of Prem Nazir. 1990 : The first Bombay International Film Festival for Documentaries and Short Films held. Satyajit Ray presented the Legion d�honneur by French President Francois Mitterand in Calcutta. Death of V. Shantaram. 1991 : Deaths of Nutan, Durga Khote. 1992 : Satyajit Ray awarded the Oscar for Lifetime Achievement and the Bharat Ratna, India�s highest civilian honour. Death of Ray. Five selected regional TV channels go national. 1993 : Bill to regulate Cable TV introduced in Lok Sabha. Five more Doordarshan channels are launched. Murdoch�s Star TV acquires 49.9 % shares in the Zee TV network. Controversy over the Choli ke Peeche Kya Hai song in Khalnayak. 1994 : Hum Aapke Hain Kaun is declared the biggest hit in the history of Indian cinema. The Sarkailo Khatiya song in Raja Babu causes a scandal leading to the announcement of amendments in the Censor Code. Shekar Kapur�s Bandit Queen runs into censor problems. Jurassic Park (1992) is dubbed into Hindi and is a big success paving the way for dubbed versions of other Hollywood films. 1995 : Aditya Chopra makes his debut with the mega hit Dilwaale Dulhania Le Jayenge. Mani Ratnam�s Bombay releases after it is cleared by Shiv Sena chief Bal Thakeray. CNN announces a news channel with Doordarshan. 1996 : First V. Shantaram Award for Lifetime Achievement in the field of Documentary Film presented to B.D. Garga. N.T. Rama Rao dies. 1997 : Gulshan Kumar, owner of T-series and pioneer of the audiocassette revolution of the 1990s, is assassinated. Leading music director Nadeem accused of the murder. Accusations abound about the criminalization of the Film Industry. 1998 : The Government declares the Film Industry as a legitimate Industry qualifying it for Institutional Finance. Shekar Kapur makes a major breakthrough in the West with Elizabeth. Both Dil Se and Kuch Kuch Hota Hai enter the UK top 10. A small independent film Hyderabad Blues is the sleeper hit of the year paving the way for the production of a series of low budget �different� films. 1999 : Elizabeth goes on to win several Oscar nominations including one for Best film. Shekar Kapur however misses the Best Director nomination. Manoj Night Shyamalan of Indian origin breaks through Hollywood in a major way following the success of The Sixth Sense. The first fully insured Indian film Taal enters the US top 20. Santosh Sivam�s Terrorist has a successful run at the box office besides being screened at various film festivals around the world. Amitabh Bachchan declared the superstar of the millennium ahead of such greats as Charlie Chaplin and Sir Laurence Olivier. 2000 : Terrorist has a release in the USA. The Sixth Sense receives Oscar nominations in the Best Film, Director and Original Screenplay among other categories but wins none. Kaho na Pyaar Hai introduces the brightest new discovery in Indian Cinema in a long time - Hritik Roshan. IIFA, the Indian International Film Awards launched. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 5 04:45:51 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 18:15:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Reader-list] What it was like to vote today: NY Message-ID: <12643580.1225840551706.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I got up at 5:30am (not the usual time for a late night DJ) to stroll over to my polling place on Greenwich with the expectation that at 6am there'd already be a huge line. Granted, it's an expensive neighborhood with the perks that go with living in this kind of area. Everything was smooth and I was in and out of the voting booth within 5minutes. Click, pull red lever, get out. The people at the polling station were an American quilt - older white women (some who I know from my neighborhood primary were Hillary fanatics), and others who were African American, Jewish, Latino (no Asians!). It was a picture perfect morning: slightly overcast skies gave way to beautiful sunshine as the day progressed but I couldn't shake that weird feeling: I really have no idea if my ballot was counted. The public spaces of democracy in the U.S. - school cafeterias, gyms, churches, civic halls, state armories... are always the hallmark of what we think of as the transparent process of democracy in action, but the essentials - where the ballots are counted, always takes place in the grey realms of the backrooms of places most Americans never visit. Nevermind that even celebrities like Tim Robbins were purged from voting lists http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/tim-robbins-encounters-confusion-at-the-polls/ or strange stuff like Oprah Winfrey's use of an electronic voting machine that made her vote disappear: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/31/oprah-opts-for-early-voti_n_139869.html I am tempted to actually think that the world as we know it functions in an obvious and transparent way: things work. But it is only 6pm. I really can't say which direction it's all going, I can only say that I feel a strange sense of floating between times and centuries with this day. There's an eerie calm, like you're in the eye of a storm. Whichever way this election goes, the storm is waiting. That's all I can say at the moment. Paul From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 11:40:20 2008 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:40:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Editing and Publishing Course Message-ID: <491138CC.8070404@gmail.com> if anyone's interested . . . CERTIFICATE COURSE IN EDITING AND PUBLISHING Applications are invited from Honours graduates in any discipline for a PG Certificate Course in Editing and Publishing to be conducted by the School of Cultural Texts and Records, Jadavpur University from 29 December 2008 to 8 April 2009. Classes will normally be held four days a week from 6 to 8 p.m. Applicants have to appear for a screening test in English skills on 22 December 2008, at 5 p.m., to be held on the first floor of the UG Arts Building. Course fee: Rs 6,000. Applications may be made on plain paper or via email (no enclosures/attachments required) to culture at school.jdvu.ac.in, addressed to the Director, School of Cultural Texts and Records, Jadavpur University, Kolkata 700032. Paper applications should be submitted to the School of Cultural Texts and Records (UG Arts/Science Building, 3rd floor, near Film Studies Department) between 11-4 p.m. on working days. Last date for applications: 19 December 2008. Original graduation certificate and mark-sheets must be produced on the day of the screening test. Sukanta Chaudhuri, Professor and Director, School of Cultural Texts and Records, Jadavpur University -- sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 12:01:34 2008 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:01:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Spike Island International Residency Programme : call for Applications Message-ID: <49113DC6.9090608@gmail.com> Spike Island International Residency Programme : call for Applications Residency opportunities for artists and others working within the field of contemporary art provide vital development time. At Spike Island we have established a series of models for artists, writers and curators which include Graduate Fellowships, Production Residencies and Research Residencies. These residencies provide both a stimulating context for visiting regional, national and international artists and directly feed into our exhibition and public programme. Key residencies for 2009/10 include: The Charles Wallace India Trust Research Residency which has supported artists from India to work at Spike Island for many years. Current deadline 15 November 2008. Applications via the British Council: http://www.britishcouncil.org/india-scholarships-cwit-listing-full.htm Past residents have included: Sanchayan Ghosh, Chintan Upadhyay, Surekha, Sudarshan Shetty, Subbanna Samit Das and Sukanya Ghosh About Spike Island Spike Island is a place for the production and exhibition of contemporary art and design. Spike Island's mission is to provide space, time and opportunity for the research, production and presentation of practices relating to the contemporary art and design within a supportive and stimulating environment. Spike Island is an excellent working environment for artists and those developing a path in the contemporary visual arts. Within the 80,000 square foot building, we provide exhibition and studio space as well as services and space for commercial creative industries. The new Canteen has become an important social focus for all those who use and visit the building. Situated on the southern end of Bristol’s historic docks, the former 1960s Brook Bond tea packing factory has become, over the last ten years, a leading venue for the production and display of contemporary visual arts. The view from the front door is across the tributary of the Avon known as the New Cut. This river, with the second highest tidal differential in the world provides all that use the building with a daily drama of its ebbs and flows. -- sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Nov 5 12:03:36 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 22:33:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <8CB0CC49742A11A-9F0-117D@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <159839.94883.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Sam,           I am not a teacher.  As you only said   >>>no, dhatri, nothing is crystal clear >>>now the things i find confusing:  etc  you need explanation/clarification.  Hmm,         I didn't address you with disrespect, rather I addressed you with full manners.  Let me say if your name is SAM and I say Uncle isn't full respect?.  Why should I add an Uncle before sam?  Because you are trying to give meaning/bring color to INDER's mail in different way which can change the focus of the topic(a total diversion) and there by reduce the tension and feelings(knowingly or unknowingly).  Hence you are an UNCLE.               Neither I nor INDER do belong/represent to US,  there is no such deep logic as you are pointing in Inder's mail.  Not only that samhood and INDER never be the same like few of the list member thought I and a,b,c...z are one and the same during my joining and later.   The logic you built upon United states and the concerning argumentative mail story doesn't stand anywhere just not in logic(predicate/proportional/advanced/reverse).  I request you to read the mails carefully twice,thrice....  then come to a conclusion.      Regards,  Dhatri. --- On Wed, 11/5/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote: From: samhoodx at aol.com Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:15 AM dhatri,    no, dhatri, nothing is crystal clear. i will explain what i mean. but first let me remind you that i did not address you or rajendra in anything but a respectful way. manners, which you demand from inder in your post, also demanded - from you, and in the same post - that you reciprocate the respect i had shown to you and rajendra. but that appears to have escaped you. you lacked manners, if i may say so, even in mocking me - the least i would have expected is an explanation as to why you were doing so.    now the things i find confusing:    i fail to understand why you call me "uncle sam", which is a symbol of the united states. do you think i am a representative of the united states? if you do, would you mind telling me why? if that is not what you meant, what did you?    but then you also indicate that i am inder salim. why?    by your logic, then, inder salim, whose identity seems to be known to members of this list, is a representative of the United States. why do you think that is the case? how does one know you are not a representative of the US yourself?    for that matter, how does one know you are not in fact a representative of al qaeda trying to bring about, or deepen, a communal divide in the indian academic community?    if you take a moment to read my post, which you have quoted, you will see that i did not support inder's action. i did two things in that post. i pointed out that inder had put across a certain logic, which you and rajendra appeared to have missed. in your present post, you seem to say that it is a matter of sentiment. that the sentiments of most hindus would be hurt by inder's photograph is, i think, beyond doubt. but sentiment also has its basis in the psychological and cultural domains. in other words, they can be explained. by not responding to inder's logic, you appear to have conceded defeat in the area of logic and explanation.    the second thing i did in my post - suggest that we try to clarify why something that was valued in temple decorations across India is hurtful in a performance in a temple today - was an attempt to clarify your logic. however, i can see that i have failed, and will not expect any logic in your posts from now on.    sam    -----Original Message-----  From: we wi   To: samhoodx at aol.com  Cc: reader-list at sarai.net  Sent: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:15 am  Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13    Uncle Sam,         It is not the nudity that you understand. You should watch INDER mails and LINK.   It's not that I(we) said something , you(inder) said something.  What the people on the List mean is Inder should visit some mosque of his choce(liberty has given),  and implement HIS CRAZYNESS/MADNESS practically as he did it in on a "IDOl" .  Photograph it and make available to the all users. Let everybody know, if it hurts everybody(including him) or not.    Forget about Nudity, Idol worshipping, Manners in Society for time being, Peoples feelilngs/reaction is accountable.  I hope it is clister clear now.    Dhatri.    --- On Mon, 11/3/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote:      From: samhoodx at aol.com   Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13  To: reader-list at sarai.net  Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:15 PM    correction:    the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the  same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple    today" should read:    "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a  temple  today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ."    sam    -----Original Message-----  From: samhoodx at aol.com  To: reader-list at sarai.net  Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am  Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13    hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i  am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message.  he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu  deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you  know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might  add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there  are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as  konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts,  temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated  elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not  mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in  a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or  may not mean, and why.    sam      -----Original Message-----    From: rajendra bhat     ..... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at  martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture  was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.?    Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus,  of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining  hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be  civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places  of worship.!    Lot more love.          >> From: inder salim     >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal    >> Displacement from Kashmir    >> To: reader-list at sarai.net    >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM    >>    >>    >> well, dear pawan    >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra  slogan,    >> it is beyond my comprehension.    >>    >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how    >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer.    >>    >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu    >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say�=A0   >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening    >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene  involved    >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any    >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this    >> question?    >>    >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our    >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason.    >>    >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join    >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject.    >>    >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List,    >>    >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a    >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the  workers    >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits.    >>    >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are  ambigous    >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and    >> profoundity at the same time.    >>    >> lot of love    >> and regards    >> is    >>    >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside    >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from    >> all this    >>    >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani      >> wrote:    >> > IInder,    >> >    >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef    >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in  Martand    >> Temple.    >> >    >> > Pawan    >> >    >> >        _________________________________________  reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.  Critiques & Collaborations  To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in  the subject header.  To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>;                _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 13:14:00 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:14:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] B R Chopra passes away Message-ID: <98f331e00811042344l46ea663fy1f3d247f8c06d375@mail.gmail.com> Noted filmmaker and one of the architects of the Golden Fifties of Hindi Cinema BR Chopra died in Mumbai on Wednesday following prolonged illness. He was 95. A winner of the Dadasaheb Phalke Award, Chopra had made successful films like *"Naya Daur*", "*Gumrah*", *"Humraaz", "Dhundh", "Insaaf ka Tarazoo" * and* "Nikah".* He is survived by his son filmmaker Ravi Chopra and two daughters Shashi and Neena. From elkamath at yahoo.com Wed Nov 5 13:57:13 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 00:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Day of the Dead Message-ID: <131374.54837.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Nov 2: All Souls Day or Day of the Dead: the day set aside to remember and pray for the dead. On Sunday, the 2nd, there is more traffic than usual on Hosur road, so richly lined with cemeteries. As we approach I can hear the sound of singing and prayers interspersed with a roll of drums. The right turn off Hosur road leading to the cemetery is a narrow lane that is usually quiet and serene, shaded by massive trees that meet overhead in a gracious canopy. Today it is littered with cars, with hawkers selling marigold garlands and agarbattis, with tables draped in snowy white sheets selling candles and offerings for the repose of souls. And there are people everywhere-- carrying bunches of flowers, holding rosaries in their hands and shepherding along young children. In the midst of this, bunches of policemen stand around with truncheons. They look alert, ready for action. Why are they here, I wonder? Someone whispers, “Its all the atrocities against Christians, they’re here to protect us”. Another voice says, “Or they’re here to control what we do, to make sure we’re not too noisy, disorderly or in-your-face while practicing our religion”. As we enter we forget about the policemen as we see several people we know. Exchanging hellos, I watch preparations on full-scale for the open-air service to be conducted. The pandal is up and the sound of “check, check” lazily breaks the air around us. Candles burn brightly and the smell of incense is sweet. We move in the direction of the graves of loved ones. Some people always know exactly where these are. Others, like ourselves, wander about searching for the right place, its been a year since we were here last. On finding it, its back to business: we look around for the cemetery workers- it’s a struggle to attract their attention amidst the throng of people. We are successful in our negotiations and the graves are washed and cleaned. “Use more water and clean it properly”, we say, only to be told “Theres no water ma, no water came today”. To prove this, his daughters jump right inside the cemetery tank and scrape along the bottom with their pots to collect the dregs of water. Despite the place humming with activity, it is peaceful. The muted sound of prayers for those dead but not forgotton is in the backdrop as I focus on the array of headstones around-- big and small, imposing and somewhat shabby and faded. It is a ritual that has been going on for a long time, since the 10th Century I am told, and while I forget about it the rest of the year, I’m always glad when its time comes round again. We leave the cemetery gates. The policemen watch us as we go. Suddenly out of the blue the thought comes, “Why didn’t they give water today? They know its an important feast and that many visit the cemetery, the number of policemen prove that.” On reaching home, I absentmindedly turn on the corporation water tap and water gushes forth. The tank is full. While the thought of bombs going off in a public place at any time is a terrifying one for me, also terrifying is the thought that water might deliberately not be supplied to certain areas, certain groups of people. I feel the need to grasp afresh the myriad ways of unleashing terror. From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 15:18:50 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:18:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Launch of EmpowerindIndia.org Message-ID: Dear all, Liberty Institute announces the launch of www.EmpoweringIndia.org in Cochin and Hyderabad on Nov 8 and 12 respectively. Please visit the following web links for programme details. Nov 8: Cochin - http://www.indefenceofliberty.org/story.aspx?id=2092&pubid=1885 Nov 12: Hyderabad - http://www.indefenceofliberty.org/story.aspx?id=2090&pubid=1884 www.EmpoweringIndia.org is an initiative of the Liberty Institute. Information about electoral candidates and constituencies have been hosted on this site with the aim of helping voters to decide who to cast their votes for during elections and to use this information after elections to hold elected representatives accountable. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 16:29:11 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:29:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811050259h1c19bb54ma805b3ee79fe359b@mail.gmail.com> Iinder, why don't u facinate about being nude in white marble place of worship with a green flag on top. well do it once to prove u don't maintain double standards ' shud I help u shortlist the structure ? Pawan jai panun kashmir we On 11/4/08, inder salim wrote: > Thanks dear Samhoodx > > your response to 'nudity' was just desirable. > > yes, all those who have difficulty with Nudity in art should know what > they approve for themselves in the first place. > and how they SEE this MARKET of ours !!!!! > > and i am sure they will find numerous contradictions while holding > 'nudity' guilty of violating societal norms. > > here, in particular, as a Hindu one needs to ask, which era of > Hinduism they belong to, if one is so dying to be identified as Hindu. > ( for example Mr. Kshmendra, a friend on the List, does not want to > be identified as Hindu, but a Kashmiri pandit, and Indian, which i > found interesting. This is irrespective of his opinion about Nudity ) > > because there are many systems and many thought patterns in all this > complexity called Hindusim, I personally, find most of its > iconography,rich and layered, and eternally inviting the eye to enter > its myriad layout..... we all know Hinduism is a way of life, an > open ended system of thoughts, which a Hindu believer is free to > disown without being outside it… > > Unfortunately, we have modern hindu believers ( mostly upper middle > class ) today, who feel ashamed to see even gods in tight embrace, > and wrap them in garments to save their blush , or their > short-sightedness ... > > > and those who are so proud to be identified as Muslims , Christians > or anything else may need to do the same questioning, because, one can > not suddenly say this is wrong or this is right, without marking the > territory they want be to inside. The territory is vast, will give > them space to manoeuvre, even though it is will be limited in the > long run, more so, when you proudly Hindu believer. > > we know, that the past is breathing through a given multiple of a > presence, and how come we can define ' nudity' without being known to > the self, let alone the other. Is it the curse of modernity that > Hindus are so averse to the idea of ' LINGUM, and YONI as > representative symbols of fertility, Was past much conducive to > artists to experiment with form, their body or their imagination, in > comparison to our present which is so scientific in outlook. Here, > it is not only India, but I guess in America, Rajendra Bhat's > objection might have caused my arrest by now. But, this way, some > proud Hindu friends look neither fish nor fowl. > > Sad, that we are content with consummation of our imagination through > TV advertisements etc. I doubt myself, perhaps they have contaminated > my aesthetic sense as well > > That also means, that as and when we see breasts of a goddess in a > temple, or a woman ( mother even ) > all we see pornography. alas, it was always much more to those > artists and saints of the past who chiselled that beauty, but, these > self styled champions of Hinduism sit most of the time in offices and > believe, that just bowing their heads in front of a temple makes them > enough Hindus. Right now, all we have is Gujaratis who manage/grab > land in Delhi and make fake replicas ( clones ) of that ancient > glory, which is bereft of that spark of imagination and courage to > execute the miracle of nature through human body, and gods eventually. > > Even when i was in the temple, or right now, i never said, that > nudity is the right thing to do in a temple , even when there was, or > was not, a tradition of nudity at a given point of time. But, > spontaneously i was fascinated, by the very idea of ruins in ancient > Kashmir ( not a place of worship anymore ) that i wanted to be with > the stones, wanted to speak with the silence, and be one with a space > which has produced great scholars, great beauty in the past. i tried > in my own way, and all may do it in their own way, if they want to > connect with a past, Nudity is one of the ways... > > Whose sensibilities are hurt.... is it that same very casual look on > the magnificence of a particular thing ( beauty ) , or one another > indifferent look on the suffering homeless, starving people in > India, and that terrible pollution, corruption and what not that > plagues our great nation India. What pains this man who is so bothered > with nudity. Ah, he must be too ashamed to see a 'nanga sadhu' while > touring a place like Haridwar with his family. I wonder how, will he > see a Digambar Jain Muni in his family if he was a Jain. There is a > huge past within each identity, and it is one's laziness to see it > that only, resulting a stifled debate, anger and fodder to > hooliganism. > > The charged and thirsty self, If includes, poetry, iconography and > architecture, or way of living of any religion, then the > possibilities of making an entry into a past ( as present ), may look > more meaningful than it is now. 'Nudity' as body without garment is > a very shallow understanding of what even nudity means. We might feel > naked with garments on us, and yet feel so free, and vice versa. > > Dear Rajendra ji, ; > > please dont see anything personal in it., it was just a frank response > to yours, as well. I am thankful to your response, because, as human > being, in absence of a questioning other, i feel talking to a walls > only, asking bluntly something gives me hope, so there is life, even > if we contradict…. > Now just one simple question to you: if you were a citizen of Rama's > Ayodhaya, that Valmiki's past, and you were supposed to doubt the > chastity of Goddess Sita, what would you do, join the masses or be > with Goddess Sita. Well, personally I would have abandoned Ayodhya > the moment Goddess Sita was told to abandon the city of Rama. Perhaps, > I identify myself more with poet-sage Valmiki than with Lord Rama. > > Now, you will certainly ask, what all this has to do with nudity. The > issue is about sexuality as well. Now, see our great father of > nation, Mahatma Gandhi, whom i admire for his immense contributions, > but he was a great believer of Rama and had problems with Khajurahao > temples. This is, perhaps, he had never resolved his sexuality. You > are not the only one, even Gandhi ji would have objected to a nude > performance. But a Tagore would never. See, there is a difference, > between Tagore and Gandhi, you and me, Lord Rama and Sita Mata. > with love > is > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:15 PM, wrote: >> correction: >> >> the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the >> same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple >> today" should read: >> >> "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple >> today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." >> >> sam >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: samhoodx at aol.com >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am >> Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 >> >> hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i >> am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. >> he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu >> deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you >> know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might >> add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there >> are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as >> konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, >> temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated >> elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not >> mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in >> a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or >> may not mean, and why. >> >> >> sam >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rajendra bhat >> >> >> ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at >> martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture >> was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? >> >> >> Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, >> of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining >> hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be >> civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places >> of worship.! >> >> >> Lot more love. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>>> From: inder salim >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> >>>> Displacement from Kashmir >> >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >>>> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> well, dear pawan >> >>>> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> >>>> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >>>> >> >>>> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> >>>> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >>>> >> >>>> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> >>>> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say >> >>>> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> >>>> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> >>>> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> >>>> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> >>>> question? >> >>>> >> >>>> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> >>>> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >>>> >> >>>> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> >>>> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >>>> >> >>>> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >>>> >> >>>> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> >>>> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the >> workers >> >>>> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >>>> >> >>>> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are >> ambigous >> >>>> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> >>>> profoundity at the same time. >> >>>> >> >>>> lot of love >> >>>> and regards >> >>>> is >> >>>> >> >>>> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> >>>> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> >>>> all this >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> > IInder, >> >>>> > >> >>>> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> >>>> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in >> Martand >> >>>> Temple. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Pawan >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Nov 5 19:27:34 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:27:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America Message-ID: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> Dear All, Here's wishing the people of America (and all Americans on this list) a hearty congratulations for the manner in which they helped end the devastation of the reign of George Bush the Second. Here's hoping that a few other rulers will get their notices to quit sooner rather than later. For instance, Vladimir Putin, Mehmood Ahmedinijad, Silvio Berlusconi, Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud (these are just a few from my personal wish list of candidates ripe for retirement, everyone can add their own favourite tyrant) The list, I am sure is long, lets hope it doesn't get longer in the next few years. Best, Shuddha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 5 20:20:26 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:50:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map During Emergency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <579337.60882.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   Thank you for the very informative comments on Bangladesh.   Before raising some points, I must admit that, before joining this List, my knowledge about Bangladesh was restricted to one of a general sort. Not surprisingly so for the general sort of a person' that I am. So I must thank this List for adding to it and provoking further interest in Bangladesh - especially guys like Naeem Mohaiemen and Shambhu Rehmat.   If not declaredly so in it's Constitution, the Islamic nature of Bangladesh is fairly well embedded in the Constitution. It is a 'default setting' which cannot be overridden in the present form of the Constitution.   "Present Form" of the Constitution is important is it not? That is what governs the lives of the citizens and defines how a country, any country, is percieved by the rest of the world in terms of the idealised principles meant for governing the country.   In the Indian Constitution for example the words "socialist" and "secular" got first added in the Preamble by the 42nd Amendment when India was governed by Indira Gandhi in 1976 under the"Emergency". Little different from it being a dictatorial regime. But the 'words' stayed on in the Constitution even with the restoration of Democratic norms. So, even if practice does not keep up with the idealised self-view (that any Constitution is), those 'words' are a part of what governs (or is meant to govern) the lives of Indians and how India will be percieved by the rest of the world in terms of the principles guiding it.   Same is the case with the "Islamic" character of Bangladesh, since the 'added' provisions have not been rescinded even if the provisions were added by Military Dictatorship under "Proclamation Order No 1 of 1977" (PO1 1977) and  'Eighth Amendment Act of 1988' (EAA 1988).   Between the 'intended' and the 'actualised' (by whichever means and at whatever stage) the latter provides the characteristics of the Constitution and the Laws derived from it. This is true of India or of Bangladesh or any other country. Jinnah's address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan contains the finest of definitions of a "secular" country but that is not what Pakistan became.       Yes, as you pointed out, there do not seem to be any Constitutional Disabilities specific for Non-Muslims. But there are many ambiguities which provide grey areas that can easily serve as fertile ground for such interpretative licence that will create disabling norms without contravening the Constitution.   As an illustratively blunt example, let me point out the words " together with the principles derived from them" in the Article 8.1 that could extend to any domain the injunction of " absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah". (in the Fundamental Principles of State Policy). Shariah and Sunnah certainly can be seen as "principles derived from  ....absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah". Or at the very least that "Statues are Haraam, even if they are of Baul singers (Lalon or no Lalon)"      You have already given some examples of ambiguities and other (introduced by dictators) 'Islamic' provisions, which are included in the points mentioned below, where I have given additional examples of the "Islamic embedment":   - Invocation for the Constitution : "BISMILLAH-AR-RAHIMAN-AR-RAHIM" (PO1 1977)   - In the Preamble:  "Pledging that the high ideals of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah, ......."   - Art 2A: "The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic." (EAA 1988)    - (In Fundamental Principles) Art 8.1: "The principles of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah, nationalism, democracy and socialism meaning economic and social justice, together with the principles derived from them as set out in this Part, shall constitute the fundamental principles of state policy." (PO1 1977) (KK-interpretative license)   - (In Fundamental Principles) Art 8.1A:  "Absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah shall be the basis of all actions" (PO1 1977)   - Deletion of Art 12 dealing with "Secularism and Freedom of Religion" (PO1 1977)   - Art 25.2: "The State shall endeavour to consolidate, preserve and strengthen fraternal relations among Muslim countries based on Islamic solidarity" (KK- Islamised Foreign Policy)   To highlight the generousness of ambiguities and I daresay contradictions that have crept into the Constitution of Bangladesh, I must, while pointing out the "Islamic Embedment" provisions, also list the "Testifying to Secularism" provisions that have stayed on inspite of (PO1 1977) and  (EAA 1988):   Art 27: Equality before law - All citizens are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law   Art 28: Discrimination on grounds of religion, etc.            1. The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race caste, sex or place of birth            3. No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth be subjected to any disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to access to any place of public entertainment or resort, or admission to any educational institution.   Art 29.2: No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth, be ineligible for, or discriminated against in respect of, any employment or office in the service of the Republic.   Art 41: Freedom of religion            1. every citizen has the right to profess, practice or propagate any religion;            2. every religious community or denomination has the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions   Incidentally, the system for amending the Constitution is quite straightforward though it does require a two-thirds assent vote. The 'sacrosant' provisions such as the Preamble and Fundamental Rights need for amending the two-thirds assent vote followed by a majority support in a general referendum.   It has been, if nothing else, a good opportunity for me to study the Constitution of Bangladesh.   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map During Emergency To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" , "Shambhu Rahmat" Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 1:25 AM Bangladesh is not, strictly speaking, an 'Islamic' country. The official title of the state is - The Peoples Republic of Bangladesh.  The post 'liberation' November 1972 constitution of Bangladesh made no mention of religion except to say that the state would not discriminate on the grounds of religion. It explicitly asserted that 'secularism' was to be seen as a guiding instrument of state policy.  Islamic references were introduced into the constitution of Bangladesh during two periods of military dictatorship, First, under the reign of General Zia ur Rahman, an amendment to the Constitution  in 1977 removed the principle of secularism that had been enshrined in Part II: Fundamental State Policy, replacing it with "absolute trust and faith in Almighty Allah."   Then, The Eighth Amendment of 1988, during the dictatorship of General Ershad, inserted Article 2A, affirming that "[t]he state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony in the republic." This is somewhat of an ambiguous contradiction, because while it states that the state religion is Islam, it also simultaneously does shies away from asserting that Islam has any de-facto primacy.  Neither of these two amendments, however, has had popular democratic sanction, and both have been viewed as a negation of the founding principles of the liberation struggle which gave rise to Bangladesh. I am not a partisan of the secular Bengali Nationalism that inspired many during the liberation struggle, but I do know that the thousands of East Bengali Muslims, Hindus and others who willingly participated in that struggle did not do so in the belief that they were going to create an 'Islamic' Bengal.   It has been argued, not without reason, that they could have been introduced into the constitution, through the back door, as it were, only during periods of military dictatorship. The current situation in Bangladesh, where the Lalon statues can be removed, is also imaginable only within the context of a military dictatorship, dressed up as 'transitional' civilian power. Military dictators in Bangladesh have always had to give their particularly corrupt despotisms the gloss and shine of Islam.  Despite both these amendments, Islamic law, the Sharia or the Sunnah are still not the primary sources of law in the legal system in Bangladesh, and no constitutional disabilities are attatched (unlike in Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia or other Islamic states) to non Muslim citizens. Bangladesh continues to have a thriving 10% Hindu population, most of whom are wealthy, middle class and found in urban areas. Many of them have found and sought their own accommodations with corrupt military dictatorships. Durga Puja, for instance, continues to be observed with as much pomp and ostentation in Bangladesh as in neighbouring West Bengal. It is the Buddhist aboriginal minorities in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, and of course, Ahmediyas who have had to face real persecution in the name of Islam.  Nothing in the constitution of Bangladesh prevents a non muslim from holding political office, including that of the head of the state or government. In practice, the legal position vis a vis Islam in Bangladesh is less special even in comparison to that of the Church of England in the United Kingdom, or the Dutch Reformed Church in the Netherlands.  In practice, however, Bangladeshi politicians (of many varieties, and not only of the explicitly 'Islamist' parties) patronize Islamic fundamentalist goons exactly as their Indian counterparts patronize Hindu and Islamic fundamentalist goons in India.  Nothing, to me makes the removal of the Lalon statue appear sensible. It would not have been the case had Bangladesh indeed been a full fledged Islamic state (which it is not) nor does it make sense in the context of the current token 'Islamic' window dressing that adorns the (some) Peoples' Republic of Bangladesh best Shuddha On 29-Oct-08, at 6:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Confining comments to the removal of the Baul Sculpture (whether it included or not the statue of Lalon Fakir)   Two weeks back, in a private mail, I had conveyed the following thoughts:    """"""""  The rationale behind the demand for removal of the statues makes sense. The news report says that the statues are in the 'hajj camp' area of the Airport. That would sure be upsetting.   Bangladesh is an Islamic country so perhaps in any case, wherever it might be,  a 'public' statue can tend to be viewed as something forbidden lest it leads to deification. Pardon my ignorance, are there such 'public statues' in Bangladesh? I presume, if none others, there would be many of Bangbandhu and Nazrul    I got introduced to Baul Music very late in my life. It is exquisitely soul-touching.   Maybe the Bauls, because of the roots, inspiration and content of their music are especially a 'sore point' cultural inheritance for the Islamists """""""""   That generally seems to be along the lines of the views reported of  Maulana Noor Hossain Noorani, Amir of Khatm-e-Nabuwat Andolon Bangladesh and Imam of Fayedabad mosque.   There have been wishful 'thought explorations' on this List and elsewhere in the public domain about "Union" between India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. That would neccessarily require some degree of seamless congruity in Laws spread across the three countries; not only Commercial Laws but Laws applicable to all aspects of the lives of the citizens.   Such a "Union" would also require one another important and critical change (in my opinion). Either India would have to declare itself a "Hindu" country or Bangladesh and Pakistan declare themselves as "Secular".   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Shambhu Rahmat wrote: From: Shambhu Rahmat Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map During Emergency To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 1:14 AM http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/28/lalon-terror/ >From Rahnuma Ahmed's analysis of Lalon Statue controversy & larger "great game".    1. 'No decision is taken without the army chief's consent, that's why we informed him,' said Maulana Noor Hossain Noorani. According to reports, highup intelligence agency officials (DGFI, NSI) had mediated contacts between the ruling party and the KN. He had met the DGFI chief in Dhaka cantonment thrice, Noorani had thus boasted to Satkhira reporters in 2005    2. Twenty-two months later…with their respective parties in shambles, thousands of party workers in prison, constitutional rights suspended due to the state of emergency, economy in tatters, police crack-downs on protests of garments workers, jute mill workers, women's organisations and activists, on human chains against increasing prices of essentials, the only two forces to have remained unscathed are the Jamaat-e-Islami, and Muslim clerics, Islamic parties and madrasa students    3. The US government's role in not only contributing to the situation, but in constituting the conditions that have given rise to extremes, of being the extreme, is disregarded by many Bangladesh scholars    4. Pakistan, America's strong military ally, is now "on the edge" of ruin. Pakistani political analysts repeatedly warn Bangladeshis that they see similar political patterns at work here: minusing political leaders, militarisation, milbus, National Security Council etc etc. Are we being set on America's flight path to greater power by this unconstitutional, unrepresentative government, one which is more accountable to western forces, than to us? Lalon and Terror: Re-configuring the Nation's Political Map during Emergency by rahnuma ahmed (New Age, Oct 29, 2008) Baul sculpture, and the nation's most powerful man 'No decision is taken without the army chief's consent, that's why we informed him,' said Maulana Noor Hossain Noorani, amir of Khatme Nabuwat Andolon Bangladesh and imam of Fayedabad mosque, at a press conference. `He didn't like the idea of setting up an idol either, right in front of the airport, so close to the Haji camp. It was removed at his initiative' (Prothom Alo, 17 October). The `it' in question was a piece of sculpture, of five Baul mystics and singers. Titled Unknown Bird in a Cage, it was being created in front of Zia International Airport, Dhaka. Madrasa students and masjid imams of adjoining areas were mobilised, Bimanbondor Golchottor Murti Protirodh Committee (Committee to Resist Idols at Airport Roundabout) was formed. A 24 hour ultimatum was given. The art work, nearly seventy percent complete, was removed by employees of the Roads and Highways Department, and Civil Aviation Authority of Bangladesh. Artists, intellectuals, cultural activists, writers, teachers, students, and many others have since continuously protested the removal of the sculpture, both in Dhaka, and other cities and towns of Bangladesh. They have demanded its restoration, have re-named the roundabout Lalon Chottor, and accused the military-backed caretaker government of capitulating, yet again, to the demands of Islamic extremists, and forces opposing the 1971 war of liberation. Soon after its removal, Fazlul Haq Amini, Chairman of a faction of Islami Oikya Jote (IOJ) and amir of Islami Ain Bastabayan Committee (IABC) said at a press conference, if an Islamic government comes to power, all statues built by Sheikh Hasina's government (1996-2001) will be demolished, since statues are `dangerously anti-Islamic'. Eternal flames, Shikha Chironton (Liberation War Museum), and Shikha Anirban (Dhaka Cantonment) will be extinguished. Paying respect to fire is the same as worshipping fire.' What about statues built during Khaleda Zia-led four party alliance government (of which he had been a part). 'Where, which ones?' Rajshahi University campus was the prompt reply. `Why didn't you raise these questions when you were in power?' 'We did, personally, but they didn't listen. We were used as stepping stones.' Amini also demanded that the National Women Development Policy 2008, shelved this year after protests by a section of Muslim clerics and some Islamic parties, should be scrapped (Prothom Alo, 18 October). Noorani and his followers demand, a haj minar should be built instead, and the road should be re-named Haj road. 'Men from the administration and the intelligence agencies,' he said at the press conference, `wore off their shoes, they kept coming to us.' (Prothom Alo, 17 October). Now where had I read of close contacts between Khatme Nabuwat and the intelligence agencies? I remembered. A Human Rights Watch report, Bangladesh: Breach of Faith (2005) had stated that KN had close links to the ruling BNP through the Jamaat-e-Islami and the IOJ, its coalition partners. I remembered other things too. It was the same Noor Hossain Noorani who had said, Tareq Zia, Senior Secretary General of the BNP, was their "Amir and same-aged friend," and had threatened police officials saying Tareq would directly intervene if Khatme Nabuwat's anti-Ahmadiya campaign was obstructed. According to reports, highup intelligence agency officials (DGFI, NSI) had mediated contacts between the ruling party and the KN. He had met the DGFI chief in Dhaka cantonment thrice, Noorani had thus boasted to Satkhira reporters in 2005, a statement never publicly refuted by the intelligence agency (Tasneem Khalil, The Prince of Bogra, Forum, April 2007, issue withdrawn, article available on the internet). What links does the present military-backed caretaker government, and more so, its intelligence agencies, have with these extremist groups? I cannot help but wonder. Is there more to what's happening than meets the eye? Other questions pop into my head. The Baul sculpture was not advertised, as public art should be. No open competition, no shortlisting, no selection panel. On the contrary, the contract seems to have been awarded as a personal dispensation. The only condition seems to have been that the sculptor must get-hold-of-a-sponsor. High regard for public art, for Baul tradition, listed by the UNESCO as a world cultural heritage, and for procedural matters. Particularly by a government whose raison d'etre is establishing the rule of law, and rooting out corruption. Simplifying the present: from `1971′ to the `Talibanisation' of Bangladesh British historian Eric Hobsbawm terms what he calls the 'short twentieth century', The Age of Extremes (1994). I can't help but think, things seem to be getting more extreme in the twenty-first century. In his most recent book, On Empire. America, War and Global Supremacy (2008), Hobsbawm traces the rise of American hegemony, the steadily increasing world disorder in the context of rapidly growing inequalities created by rampant free-market globalisation, the American government's use of the threat of terrorism as an excuse for unilateral deployment of its global power, the launching of wars of aggression when it sees fit, and its absolute disregard of formerly accepted international conventions. The US government's role in not only contributing to the situation, but in constituting the conditions that have given rise to extremes, of being the extreme, is disregarded by many Bangladesh scholars, whether at home or abroad. Most of these writings are atrociously naive, exhibiting a theoretical incapacity to deal with questions of global inequalities in power. Authors repeatedly portray American power ― in whichever manifestation, whether economic or cultural, military or ideological ― as being benign. Two images of Bangladesh are juxtaposed against each other, a secular Bangladesh of the early 1970s, the fruit of Bangladesh's liberation struggle of 1971, and a Talibanised Bangladesh of recent years. `National particularities' and 'the dynamics of domestic policies' are emphasised (undoubtedly important), but inevitably at the cost of leaving the policies of US empire-building efforts un-examined. One instance is Maneeza Hossain, Senior Fellow at the Hudson Institute, who, in her 60 page study of the growth of Islamism in Bangladesh politics, tucks in a hurried mention of US' supply of weaponry to Afghan jihadists, and moves on to call on the US to shake off its `indifference' to Bangladesh, to use its 'good offices' to help democratic forces within Bangladesh prevail (The Broken Pendulum. Bangladesh's Swing to Radicalism, 2007). Ali Riaz, who teaches at Illinois State University, author of God Willing. The Politics of Islamism in Bangladesh (2004) provides another instance. International reasons for the rise of militancy are the Afghan war, internationalisation of resistance to Soviet occupation, policies of so-called charitable organisations of the Middle East and Persian Gulf, and (last, it would also seem, the least) `American foreign policy'. A token mention showing utter disregard towards 1,273,378 Iraqi deaths, caused by the invasion and occupation. 1971 was genocidal, but so is the Iraq invasion. On a much larger scale. Unconcerned, he goes on, policy circles in the US are `apprehensive' about militancy in Bangladesh. Even now. The solution? He advocates open debates, particularly between the intelligence agencies and the political parties (Prothom Alo, 3 February 2008). And then one comes across Farooq Sobhan who claims that president Bush has 'taken pains' to convince Muslims that the war against terror is not a war against Islam or a clash of civilizations (no, it's a crime against humanity). Rather petulantly, he asks, why has Bangladesh, a Muslim majority country, not figured prominently on the US 'list of countries to be wooed and cultivated.' Further, he writes, "High on the US agenda has been the issue of Bangladesh sending troops to Iraq." Sending 'troops', like crates of banana, or tea? Surely, there are substantive issues ― of death and destruction of Iraqis and Iraq, of war crimes ― involved. Re-configuring Politics during Emergency Creating a level playing field so that free and fair national elections could be held, that's what the military-backed caretaker government had promised. Twenty-two months later, after failed attempts at minusing Khaleda Zia and Sheikh Hasina, with their respective parties in shambles, thousands of party workers in prison, constitutional rights suspended due to the state of emergency, economy in tatters, police crack-downs on protests of garments workers, jute mill workers, women's organisations and activists, on human chains against increasing prices of essentials, the only two forces to have remained unscathed are the Jamaat-e-Islami, and Muslim clerics, Islamic parties and madrasa students, those who protested against the Women Development Policy, agitated for the removal of Baul sculptures, recently caused havoc in the DU Vice Chancellor's office protesting against newly-enforced admission requirements. Are these accidental, or deliberate governmental moves? I cannot help but wonder. Several western diplomats ― members of the infamous Tuesday Club, particularly ambassadors from United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, and the EU representative ― and also the UN Resident Coordinator actively intervened in Bangladesh politics prior to 11 January 2007, in events that led to the emergence of the present military-backed caretaker goverment. Renata Dessalien did so to unheard degrees, leading to recent demands that the UN Resident Coordinator be withdrawn. In a week or so, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon arrives in Dhaka, to see for himself electoral preparations, and extend support for the government. A visit that has nothing to do with politics, we are told. In the eyes of many observers, Ban is one of the most pro-American secretaries general in it's 62-year history. He has opposed calls for a swift US withdrawal from Iraq, and is committed to a beefed-up UN presence in Baghdad. The UN staff committee has protested Ban's decision saying it would `make the institution complicit in an intractable US-made crisis' (Washington Post, 24 September 2007). In the name of bringing 'beauty' to politics in Bangladesh, the lineaments of political reconfiguration undertaken by this military-backed caretaker government are becoming ominously clear: mainstream political parties in shambles, Jamaat-e-Islami intact (`democratic party,' Richard Boucher, US Assistant Secretary of State, 2006), Muslim clerics and Islamic forces re-emerging as a political force under state patronage, and the exercise of rampant power by western diplomats. A beast in the guise of beauty? Time will tell. On the Flight Path of American Power I borrow the title from British-Pakistani historian Tariq Ali's coming event: `Pakistan/Afghanistan: on the Flight Path of American Power,' to be held at Toronto, November 14. Seven years after the US led invasion, Pakistan, America's strong military ally, is now "on the edge" of ruin. Pakistani political analysts repeatedly warn Bangladeshis that they see similar political patterns at work here: minusing political leaders, militarisation, milbus, National Security Council etc etc. I do not think that an Obama win will make any difference to the American flight path for unilateral power. As atute political commentators point out, Obama and McCain differ on domestic policies, not substantively on US foreign policy. A couple of days ago, president Bush signed the highest defense budget since World War II. Maybe there should be an open public debate in Bangladesh, as Ali Riaz proposes, but with a different agenda: are we being set on America's flight path to greater power by this unconstitutional, unrepresentative government, one which is more accountable to western forces, than to us? Drifting in cage and out again Hark unknown bird does fly Shackles of my heart If my arms could entwine With them I would thee bind ― Fakir Lalon Shah, "Khachar bhitor ochin pakhi," translation by Shahidul Alam. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 20:47:28 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 20:47:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] REFLECTIONS BY COMRADE FIDEL Message-ID: <98f331e00811050717u5dfe88cas643f0f31d9068178@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I am posting Comrade Fidel's take on the US Prez elections from http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/noviembre/mar4/45reflex3-i.html. Regards, Prakash REFLECTIONS BY COMRADE FIDEL THE NOVEMBER 4TH ELECTIONS Tomorrow will be a significant day. The world public will be following the United States elections there. It is the most powerful nation on Earth. Actually, with less than 5% of the world population it swallows every year great amounts of oil and gas, minerals, raw materials, consumer goods and sophisticated products brought from overseas. Many of these, particularly the fuels and those extracted from mines, are non renewable. It is the largest arms producer and exporter. Its industrial military complex also has an insatiable domestic market. Its naval and air forces are deployed in scores of military basis located in the territory of other nations. The United States strategic warhead-carrying missiles can reach any place in the world with absolute precision. A great number of the cleverest minds in the world are uprooted from their original countries and placed at the service of the system. It is a parasitical and plundering empire. It is a known fact that the black population introduced in the US territory throughout centuries of slavery is the victim of a marked racial discrimination. The Democratic candidate Obama is partly black; the dark skin and features of that race are predominant in him. He was able to study at a higher education center where he graduated with outstanding results. He is surely more clever, better educated and calm than his Republican adversary. I'm analyzing tomorrow's elections when the world is enduring a serious financial crisis –the worst since the 1930s— among many others which have seriously affected the economy of many nations in the course of over three fourths of a century. The international media, the political analysts and commentators are using part of their time to discuss the issue. Obama is considered the best political speaker of the United States in the past decades. His compatriot Toni Morrison, a 1993 Nobel Prize Laureate in Literature, and the first one from her ethnic group born in the United States who has been awarded such prize --an excellent author-- has called him the future President and poet of that nation. I have been watching the struggle between the contenders. The black candidate caused much amazement with his nomination in the face of strong adversaries. He has well articulated ideas which he hammers once and again into the voters' minds. He does not hesitate to claim that more than Republicans or Democrats they are all Americans, the citizens he qualifies as the most productive in the world. He says he will reduce taxes for the middle class, where he includes practically everybody, while he will completely remove them for the poorest and raise them for the wealthiest. The revenues, he claims, will not the used to bailout banks. He insists repeatedly that the ruinous spending on Bush's war in Iraq will not be paid by the American taxpayers. He will put an end to it and bring the US troops back home. Perhaps he is mindful of the fact that that country had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. However, the blood has been shed of thousands of US troops, injured or killed in battle, and the lives taken of over a million people in that Muslim nation. It was a war of conquest imposed by the empire seeking for oil. In light of the current financial crisis and its consequences, the American people are more concerned over the economy than the war in Iraq. They are anguishing over their jobs, the safety of their bank deposits and their retirement funds, and the fear of loosing the purchasing power of their money and the houses where they live with their families. They wish to have the certainty that whatever the circumstances they will receive adequate medical care and that their children will accede to higher education. Obama is challenging and I think he has taken and will still take great risks in a country where any extremist can legally purchase a sophisticated modern weapon anywhere, as it was the case in the first half of the 18th century in the west of the United States. He supports his system and he will be get support from it. The pressing problems of the world are not really a major source of concern to Obama, much less to the candidate who as a war pilot dropped tens of tons of bombs on Hanoi City, that is, more than 9,375 miles away from Washington, ad this with no remorse. When last Thursday I addressed a letter to Lula, in addition to what I already mentioned in my Reflections of October 31, I literally wrote: "Racism and discrimination have been present in the American society ever since its birth, over two centuries ago. Latin Americans and blacks have always been discriminated against there. Its citizens have been brought up under consumerism. Humanity is objectively threatened by its mass extermination weapons." "The American people are more concerned over the economy that the Iraq war. McCain is an old, bellicose and uneducated man; he is not very smart and he is in poor health." Finally, I said: "If my estimates were wrong and racism prevailed: if the Republican candidate won the Presidency, the danger of a war would increase and the peoples' opportunities to progress would be reduced. Nevertheless, we need to fight and to build awareness about this, whoever it is who wins this election." When these views that I sustain are published tomorrow, nobody will have time to say that I wrote something that could be used by any candidate to advance his campaign. I had to be, and I have been, neutral in this electoral competition. It is not "interference in the internal affairs of the United States", as the State Department would put it, as respectful as it is of other countries' sovereignty. Fidel Castro Ruz November 3, 2008 4:10 p.m. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Nov 5 21:14:01 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 07:44:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= In-Reply-To: <12346.57146.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <443679.29290.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Kshemendra,   >>>Why is this important to be understood? Because it is important for India. Muslims are >>>a part of India. They belong to India and India belongs to them as much as these >>>definitions and claim of relationship holds true for any other people in India. Demonising >>>Muslims or Islam is an attack on a substantially large number of Indians.     Its contradictory to the formation of PAKISTAN and later its illegal occupation and possession of INDIAN TERRITORIES.  They ruined INDIA and its great history starting from Ghazani to Aurangazeb the worst and now its more worsen the situation.   The peace can be possible and Kashmir issue will be resolved immediately   1) After RETURN OF POK to INDIA and rest of the occupations from CHINA . 2) Muslims those who all can't live peacefully within INDIA can go to PAKISTAN and settle    there and live peacefully?  Why the so much damage inside INDIA?  Why the double     standards? 3) There are so much moves happened at the time of PARTITION why not now a 2nd     time????      Why so many complications and why nobody thinking in this way!  Why to hurt the sentiments or whatever?   Regards, Dhatri.     --- On Tue, 11/4/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Islamic justice To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 5:44 PM Dear Aditya   I have been deliberating with myself since last night when I first read your mail, about writing to you. I must, I finally decided, for the sake of my own convictions, for the sake of India for which you often speak and perhaps for your own sake too. I hope you will understand why it was important for me to write.   It was improper of you to title your post as "Islamic Justice" when the body of the News Report draws no such generalised inference. On 22/08/08, Shivam Vij posted  with the Subject Line "Hindu terrorism in Jammu", a News Report of "Protestors attack Congress Leader". He was guilty of distortions meant to provoke divisiveness. You are guilty of the same.   Shuddha took issue with what Shivam had done. Shivam apologised.   What has been reported from Somalia is in no way "Islamic Justice". An act carried out 'in the name of Islam' does not automatically make it an 'Islamic act'. There are many practices 'in the name of Islam' which do not find sanction in 'Purist Islam'.   'Death by Stoning' is not a punishment sanctioned in the Quran. The Quran also says that no punishment should exceed the punishments specified in the Quran. 80 lashes is the punishment for adultery. But in the case of this 13 year old girl it is rape by 3 men and not adultery.   Many practices with 'tribal roots' prior to Mohammed continued after his death and some during his lifetime too. They continued during the reigns of the first 4 Khalifas and thereafter too. Today they have diminished amongst many of the concentrated Muslim societies that call themselves Islamic.   "Death by stoning" is not sanctioned amongst many Muslim societies, nor is 'death for adultery' sanctioned. It is Un-Islamic.   Amongst 'thinking' Muslim societies there is extensive discussion on how 'rape' should be evaluated as being distinctly different from 'adultery'. This has become important due to the obsfucation that had taken place between 'adultery' and 'rape'. Connectedly the '3 eyewitnesses' requirement for establishing non-sanctioned sexual union has given way in the case of 'rape' to 'witness' provided by the victim's statement, body injuries, forensic evidence from body fluids and other DNA material and also circumstantial evidence.   Just to give one another example of attempts by Muslims to do away with some degraded practices followed 'in the name of Islam', you would know that many Muslim societies have discarded the 3 simultaneous pronouncements of the word "talaaq" as sealing a divorce.   Similarly, inspite of being torn between 'individualised thought/understanding' and the pressures of 'expected allegiances' combined with 'propagated interpretations' increasing number of Muslims are re-thinking terms like "Jihad'.   The point is whether one should appreciate the struggles of Muslims who are discarding degraded practices/interpretations 'in the name of Islam' or whether one should speak and act in a manner to support them and reassure them in a manner that would not make them 'blacksheep' in the Islamic Fold.   Why am I concerned about this? Because it is important for India.   To put in in perspective the affairs of the Muslims, an excellent comparativeness is available from looking at those known as "Hindus". They struggled in doing so but discarded such degraded practices as Sati, Child Sacrifice, Human Sacrifice. Some practices that might have at some time made some sense for the design of societies at that time were judged as being discriminatory and done away with such as "eldest son being sole inheritor/dispenser" - the role of the "Karta". A similar situation exists with 'dowry' and "Hindus' are still struggling with that 'evil'.   For that matter, many of the practices that might have in principle been done away with still find themselves being practised amongst "Hindus" every now and then and here and there, some more frequently than others.   One of the most abominable practices amongst "Hindus" which I personally evaluate as having done the greatest harm to "Hinduism" is the degradation that took place in the "Varna" precept getting transformed into 'superiority of one caste over the other' (does not matter whether by birth or prfession). "Hindus" are still struggling with that decadence.   If you understand this 'struggle' to become 'better' amongst the "Hindus" then you would/should also appreciate the "struggle' to become 'better' amongst the "Muslims".   Just as a "terrorist acts" and "gegraded practices by "Hindus" or 'in the name of Hinduism' are not representative of "Hinduism" or "All Hindus", similarly "terrorist acts" and "gegraded practices by "Muslims" or 'in the name of Islam' are not representative of "Islam" or "All Muslims"   Why is this important to be understood? Because it is important for India.. Muslims are a part of India. They belong to India and India belongs to them as much as these definitions and claim of relationship holds true for any other people in India. Demonising Muslims or Islam is an attack on a substantially large number of Indians.   Anyone, who by speech or action will bring harm to the integrity of India is an enemy of India. Anyone who will seek by word or action to bring around divides amongst the people of India is an enemy of India.   I do not see you as an enemy of India so it was important for me to speak to you. I hope you understand.   Kshmendra     On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty > > *Somalian rape victim, 13, stoned to death.* > Chris McGreal, Africa correspondent The Guardian, > Monday November 3 2008 > > An Islamist rebel administration in Somalia has had a 13-year-old > girl stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported > that she was raped by three men. > > Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the > southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim > Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones > was brought to the stadium for the killing. > > Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be > forcibly carried into the stadium. > > "At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told > by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether > Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They > removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was > replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to > continue," the human rights group said. It continued: "Inside the > stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to > the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a > bystander." > > Amnesty said Duhulow was originally reported by witnesses as being 23 > years old, based on her appearance, but established from her father > that she was a child. He told Amnesty that when they tried to report > her rape to the militia, the child was accused of adultery and > detained. None of the men accused was arrested. > > "This was not justice, nor was it an execution," said Amnesty's > Somalia campaigner, David Copeman. "This killing is yet another human > rights abuse committed by the combatants to the conflict in Somalia, > and again demonstrates the importance of international action to > investigate and document such abuses, through an international > commission of inquiry." > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Nov 5 21:15:20 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:15:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map During Emergency In-Reply-To: <579337.60882.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <579337.60882.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra, Thank you for your informative and well thought out response to my posting on the constitution of Bangladesh. I totally agree with you on much of what you have said. And yes, the pretensions to 'Socialism' and 'Secularism' inserted into the Indian constitution during indira Gandhi's dictatorship of the Emergency years in India are about as sincere as the two explicit invocations of Islam inserted during the Zia and Ershad dictatorships in Bangladesh. I would view both as attempts by reigning dictators to give their venal rule a spot of doctrinal shine. Bangladesh is about as 'Islamic' today as India is 'Secular' or 'Socialist'. And I have no doubt at all that in practice, the political dispensation in Bangladesh has favoured the majority community and sought to accommodate Muslim Fundamentalists, just as the ruling dispensation (regardless of whether it represented the interests of the Congress, the BJP, the Janata Dal or the so-called Left) in India has favoured fundamentalists of both majority and minority communities, through a politics of sheer cynicism. I oppose Muslim fundamentalism in Bangladesh as stringently as I oppose both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalism in India. I think you will recall that in the matter of Taslim Nasrin, I had strongly advocated a position on this list that could not have been welcomed by Muslim fundamentalists, either in India or in Bangladesh. I maintain that position and believe that for me, the freedom of Taslima Nasrin and Salman Rushdie to write whatever they want about Islam is as important as the freedom of Inder Salim to perform as he wishes in the precincts of an archaeological ruin. However, there is one point on which I am in disagreement with you. You say - "As an illustratively blunt example, let me point out the words " together with the principles derived from them" in the Article 8.1 that could extend to any domain the injunction of " absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah". (in the Fundamental Principles of State Policy). Shariah and Sunnah certainly can be seen as "principles derived from ....absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah". Or at the very least that "Statues are Haraam, even if they are of Baul singers (Lalon or no Lalon)" Now, for this to be true, we would have to accept that there is a consistency within Islamic scriptural sources about how to treat the making of graven images. I do not think this is the case, and I would like to take this opportunity to elaborate as to why I think so. I have had occasion to undertake a detailed reading of the relevant sources pertaining to image making within Islamic scripture while thinking and working on the 'Danish Cartoon' question a few years ago. And I will base my observations in the remaining part of my post to materials gathered during the course of my research on this matter (and what I am writing below is in fact a quotation and paraphrasing of a larger, longer essay on this subject). I think you will find it of interest. (I had also shared some of these thoughts with Naeem, earlier, responding to queries by him on the 'Lalon Statues' controversy, off list) So, what do Islamic scriptural sources actually say about images and image making: The Quran in fact contains no explicit injunction against images or image making as such other than the commandment (common to all Abrahamic religions) not to worship a graven image. This aniconism can be said to lie in the belief that no image can do justice to the majesty of the divine. We could argue that since the statue of Lalon was not meant as an icon for worship, there is no strictly quranic injunction against its destruction. There is however a more explicit injunction against image making per se in the Ahadith, the traditions of the prophet, which together with the Quran, are a source of Islamic law and conduct. Specifically, the ahadith, two to be precise, variations of the narrative of the same incident, attributed to the prophets young wife, Ayesha, compiled in the Sahih Bukhari, goes like this - I quote from Hadith number 844 of the 72nd book of the Sahih al-Bukhari (Bukhari's compendium of Ahadith) ‘Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) once narrated the following incident - she said "I bought a cushion having pictures on it. When Allah’s Apostle saw it, he stopped at the gate and did not enter. I noticed the signs of anger (for that) on his face! I said, "O Allah’s Apostle! I turn to Allah and His Apostle in repentance! What sin have I committed?" He said, "What about this cushion?" I said, ‘I bought it for you to sit on and recline on." Allah’s Apostle said, "The makers of these pictures will be punished (severely) on the Day of Resurrection and it will be said to them, ‘Make alive what you have created.’" . Thus, some jurists have concluded that the makers of images will be asked to breathe life into the images that they have created on the day of Judgement, and that their inevitable failure to do so (only God bestows life) will lead to their punishment. What is of interest here is the fact that the offence is against God, for in making images, any images, the image makers are attempting to abrogate to themselves the power to 'make' life. In such offences, the verdict and the punishment, (which could include the destruction of the said image) too can only be pronounced and executed by God. For any human to undertake to do so (even on 'behalf' of God) would also result in the commission of a grave offence, of trying to be divine, which is a crime of the same order as attempting to make life, because both are based on delusions of grandeur. Both in fact, involve the offence of 'acting as if' one were God. This deferral of judgment and punishment (qualified by the hope of divine compassion and mercy) has actually been a means by which the activity of image making has always found theological protection. Let us also note that the crime is not to make this or that image, but any image at all. To a certain extent, this aniconism has given us the baroque ornamentation of the Islamic decorative arts, but only to a certain extent. As is evident from even a cursory perusal of the miniature painting tradition in Islamicate cultures, even the so called ultimate offence of images of the prophet himself (leave alone pictures of other beings and people) and other holy personages in Islam are far more common in Islamicate cultures than a complete ban on image making could have allowed for. In other words, the injunction against image making, not dissimilar to an injunction against printing and the use of movable type, which was used by the Ottoman empire to ban the use of printing for Arabic because it was thought that printing could lead to the multiplication of errors, were such errors to occur, in the copies of the Quran. The clergy that argued for the ban, were aware, no doubt of the 'printers devil' that had crept into the earliest printed bibles, the first English bible, for instance had omitted the word 'not' in the commandment 'thou shalt not commit adultery' with an interesting doctrinal consequence. This did not mean a complete ban on printing, just that printing presses when they did exist in the Ottoman empire, were likely to be owned and used by Jews, for printing in hebrew, rather than in Arabic. Over time, the fatwa against printing (based on a conveniently found minor hadith with a doubtful isnad or provenance) was overlooked, just as the ban on image making has been overlooked in practice. It was only with the ascendance of wahabi Islam in more recent times, as practiced in what is now Saudi Arabia that it returned to dominate the consciousness of Islamic societies worldwide. Here too, as we have seen in the Shia context, and in even the predominantly heterodox Sunni-Barelvi religious context of South Asia, which is where the majority of the world's muslims live, it is completely ignored. But let us return to the prohibition, and see what the Islamic tradition says about the relationship that the prophet himself has to images. The earliest extant account of Mecca, Abu al-Walid al-Azraki, in his "Akhbar Makka," relates that the Prophet, when he ordered the destruction of all the idols in the Haram in Mecca in 630, himself prevented the destruction of a Byzantine style fresco painting of the Virgin and Child on the wall. This figural fresco was nearly a century later destroyed by a fire at the Haram. However, while the Prophet preserved the fresco of the Virgin and Child in the Haram, at the same time a fresco, depicting the life of the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), and other fresco paintings, depicting other customs, were defaced. This incident is also recounted by Ibn Shihab (the earliest biographer of the prophet, and who all Muslims rely on for the basic biographical information that informs the entire genre of 'Sirat' or prophet biographies in Arabic and other languages). Ibn Shihab writes, and I quote, "Asma, the daughter of Shaqr, said that a woman of the Banu Ghassan (a long established Christian Arab tribe) had joined the pilgrimage of the Arabs (Muslems), and when she saw the picture of Mary in the Kaaba she said: 'My father and my mother be your ransom. Mary, you are surely an Arab woman!' The Messenger ordered that the pictures (in the Kaaba) be erased, except for those of Jesus and Mary." T.M.P Duggan, a Tukish scholar of Islamic Art history considers this example to be of great importance because it happened within the sacred enclosure in Mecca with the Prophet of Islam, who himself ordered the preservation of paintings of Mary and the Prophet Jesus. Morover, I have myself seen images including of humanoid and human figures in murals and fresoces from the palace of the Umayyad caliphs in the National Museum in Damascus. These include the remnants of a life sized figure of the Caliph Abdel Malek the First. Even the grand Umayyad Mosque complex in Damascus, the fourth most important site of worship in Sunni Islam, (and visited by Shias for its shrine to Imam Hussain) has murals and frescoes which include figurative imagery. Clearly, if the Islamic tradition can be quoted against image making, in an iconoclastic or aniconic way, it can be also the source of a different way of dealing with images, or at least with some images. This latitude and ambivalence in the way one deals with objects as powerful as images is not dissimilar to what we find in all major religions, with episodes of iconicity alternating with, or even overlapping with aniconic tendencies. I am not suggesting that a 'liberal' Islam, or one that is sympathetic to image making, is necessarily a 'true' Islam, and unlike many liberal muslim commentators and others sympathetic to them, I am not interested in entering the discussion of whether the muslims who participate in violent protests or call for bans are 'good Muslims' or 'bad Muslims'. To my mind, this distinction between 'good' and 'bad', 'true' and 'false' Muslims, is a problematic one, because it involves value judgements on matters of faith that cannot be based on any evidence, and are simply matters of opinion, such that one persons good Muslim is always some one else's bad Muslim. All I am interested in pointing out, is that with regard to the making of images, and dealing with them, the histories and living practices of Islamic societies are far more diverse and complex than those arguing for the removal of the Lalon statues in Bangladesh would have us believe. Both these responses stem from an arrogant ignorance of the complexity of islamic histories and cultures. It is this arrogance and bigotry that produces its own xenophobic mirror on the other side, and islamic fundamentalists of the wahabi variety and islamophobes are true mirrors of each other. Most importantly both premise their actions on a violent disregard for the actual history of Islamicate cultures and ways of life. There can be no greater enemy of an ordinary, even believing and pious Muslim than the ignorant fundamentalist mullah who strangles his or her cultural inheritance to death. It could be argued, and in fact it has been argued that the wholesale destruction of sacred sites and places of pilgrimage and piety is one of the most offensive acts that can be imagined, with regard to the religious sentiments of believers and devotees. One such process of destruction, which began in the early twentieth century, and continues unabated is the demolition of sites of prayer and devotion for millions of ordinary muslims in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The particular brand of Wahabi Islam that holds sway in Saudi Arabia has enabled the wholesale destruction of sites such as the 'Jannat al Baqui' or the graveyard of the companions of the prophet, and their redevelopment, as hotels, shopping malls, apartment complexes and condominiums. Intolerance and real estate development have gone hand in hand. It could be argued that this destruction of the architectural and religious heritage of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina and their environs is as injurious to the religious sentiments of millions of non Wahabi muslims as the Danish Cartoons were to some religious muslims. Sami Angawi, an architect, expert on the region's Islamic architecture, and founder of the Haj Research centre, recently told Reuters, "We are witnessing now the last few moments of the history of Mecca,"... "Its layers of history are being bulldozed for a parking lot," he added. Angawi estimated that over the past 50 years at least 300 historical buildings had been leveled in Mecca and Medina, another Muslim holy city containing the prophet's tomb. Angawi holds Wahabism, which was also responsible for the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas to account for the destruction of this component of the global Muslim heritage "They (Wahhabis) have not allowed preservation of old buildings, especially those related to the prophet. They fear other Muslims will come to see these buildings as blessed and this could lead to polytheism and idolatry." What is interesting about this testimony is that it can so easily be ignored, by Islamophobes, because they are not interested in diversity within Islam, obsessed as they are with the one point agenda of seeing all Muslims as one, and by a majority of Islamists because they are bankrolled by the kind of regime that has also no problem insulting the religious sentiments of a majority of Muslims in the world. " thanks and regards Shuddha On 05-Nov-08, at 8:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Shuddha > > Thank you for the very informative comments on Bangladesh. > > Before raising some points, I must admit that, before joining this > List, my knowledge about Bangladesh was restricted to one of a > general sort. Not surprisingly so for the general sort of a person' > that I am. So I must thank this List for adding to it and provoking > further interest in Bangladesh - especially guys like Naeem > Mohaiemen and Shambhu Rehmat. > > From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Nov 5 21:28:45 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:28:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map During Emergency In-Reply-To: References: <579337.60882.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2B928B62-1FE7-440B-A5CE-CB7BE25A2515@sarai.net> Dear all, Dear Kshmendra, There is a typing mistake in one sentence in my last posting. Since it can lead to an error in understanding I would like it to be read as originally intended The sentence reads - > We could argue that since the statue of Lalon was not meant as an > icon for worship, there is no strictly quranic injunction against > its destruction. It ought to read as - We could argue that since the statue of Lalon was not meant as an icon for worship, there is no strictly quranic injunction either for or against its destruction. Apologies to all for this error, best Shuddha From gautam.bhan at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 22:35:20 2008 From: gautam.bhan at gmail.com (gautam bhan) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:05:20 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America In-Reply-To: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> References: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear All, I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I wrote for elsewhere. - gautam Cross-posted from Kafila.org A Letter from America I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. This is another part of America that has elected Obama. I saw the election results come in with community organisers, activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that has elected Obama. There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of change can understand and support. From pankhuree at hotmail.com Wed Nov 5 23:08:01 2008 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 17:38:01 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Request for help finding Statistics Message-ID: Greetings Sarai List members, I am doing a school project and hope someone on this list might be able to direct me as to where I can find certain statistics. I need to find numbers ( as up-to-date as possible) on: Infant mortality for every district in the states of Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, and Madhya Pradesh Federal investment into every district in the states of Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, and Madhya Pradesh Number of political leaders from Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe backgrounds in every district in the states of Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, and Madhya Pradesh Any suggestions on how to locate this data would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Pankhuree _________________________________________________________________ Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5gb_112008 From samhoodx at aol.com Thu Nov 6 00:10:46 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (samhoodx at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:40:46 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <159839.94883.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB0D8D26309A96-B10-EF6@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> Let me tell you one or two things. First, if you consider yourself a rational person, you have an obligation to explain what you say. Therefore, your sarcasm - "I am not a teacher" - is misplaced. Second, I find it difficult to believe that you do not know what is meant by Uncle Sam. Third, please speak for yourself, not Inder or anyone else. I am referring to this statement: "Neither I nor INDER do belong/represent to US". Fourth, there is no reason for me to believe what you say about yourself, i.e., deny being a representative of the US. Fifth, you did not deny that you are an Al Qaeda surrogate, and the conclusion can be drawn that you are admitting to being one. Sixth, you have contradicted yourself by saying "samhood and INDER never be the same", because you had written earlier that "you(inder) said something". Seventh, I see no point in discussing logic with you, for reasons I have stated in my last post and also some of the contents of your present post, which I have noted above. -----Original Message----- Dear Sam, I am not a teacher. As you only said >>>no, dhatri, nothing is crystal clear >>>now the things i find confusing: etc you need explanation/clarification. Hmm, I didn't address you with disrespect, rather I addressed you with full manners. Let me say if your name is SAM and I say Uncle isn't full respect?. Why should I add an Uncle before sam? Because you are trying to give meaning/bring color to INDER's mail in different way which can change the focus of the topic(a total diversion) and there by reduce the tension and feelings(knowingly or unknowingly). Hence you are an UNCLE. Neither I nor INDER do belong/represent to US, there is no such deep logic as you are pointing in Inder's mail. Not only that samhood and INDER never be the same like few of the list member thought I and a,b,c...z are one and the same during my joining and later. The logic you built upon United states and the concerning argumentative mail story doesn't stand anywhere just not in logic(predicate/proportional/advanced/reverse). I request you to read the mails carefully twice,thrice.... then come to a conclusion. Regards, Dhatri. --- On Wed, 11/5/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote: From: samhoodx at aol.com Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:15 AM dhatri, no, dhatri, nothing is crystal clear. i will explain what i mean. but first let me remind you that i did not address you or rajendra in anything but a respectful way. manners, which you demand from inder in your post, also demanded - from you, and in the same post - that you reciprocate the respect i had shown to you and rajendra. but that appears to have escaped you. you lacked manners, if i may say so, even in mocking me - the least i would have expected is an explanation as to why you were doing so. now the things i find confusing: i fail to understand why you call me "uncle sam", which is a symbol of the united states. do you think i am a representative of the united states? if you do, would you mind telling me why? if that is not what you meant, what did you? but then you also indicate that i am inder salim. why? by your logic, then, inder salim, whose identity seems to be known to members of this list, is a representative of the United States. why do you think that is the case? how does one know you are not a representative of the US yourself? for that matter, how does one know you are not in fact a representative of al qaeda trying to bring about, or deepen, a communal divide in the indian academic community? if you take a moment to read my post, which you have quoted, you will see that i did not support inder's action. i did two things in that post. i pointed out that inder had put across a certain logic, which you and rajendra appeared to have missed. in your present post, you seem to say that it is a matter of sentiment. that the sentiments of most hindus would be hurt by inder's photograph is, i think, beyond doubt. but sentiment also has its basis in the psychological and cultural domains. in other words, they can be explained. by not responding to inder's logic, you appear to have conceded defeat in the area of logic and explanation. the second thing i did in my post - suggest that we try to clarify why something that was valued in temple decorations across India is hurtful in a performance in a temple today - was an attempt to clarify your logic. however, i can see that i have failed, and will not expect any logic in your posts from now on. sam -----Original Message----- From: we wi To: samhoodx at aol.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:15 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 Uncle Sam, It is not the nudity that you understand. You should watch INDER mails and LINK. It's not that I(we) said something , you(inder) said something. What the people on the List mean is Inder should visit some mosque of his choce(liberty has given), and implement HIS CRAZYNESS/MADNESS practically as he did it in on a "IDOl" . Photograph it and make available to the all users. Let everybody know, if it hurts everybody(including him) or not. Forget about Nudity, Idol worshipping, Manners in Society for time being, Peoples feelilngs/reaction is accountable. I hope it is clister clear now. Dhatri. --- On Mon, 11/3/08, samhoodx at aol.com wrote: From: samhoodx at aol.com Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:15 PM correction: the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today" should read: "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ." sam -----Original Message----- From: samhoodx at aol.com To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message. he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts, temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or may not mean, and why. sam -----Original Message----- From: rajendra bhat ..... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.? Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus, of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places of worship.! Lot more love. >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement from Kashmir >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM >> >> >> well, dear pawan >> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan, >> it is beyond my comprehension. >> >> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how >> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer. >> >> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu >> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say�=A0 >> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening >> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved >> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any >> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this >> question? >> >> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our >> intolerance towards the other is the core reason. >> >> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join >> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject. >> >> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List, >> >> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a >> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the workers >> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits. >> >> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are ambigous >> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and >> profoundity at the same time. >> >> lot of love >> and regards >> is >> >> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside >> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from >> all this >> >> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > IInder, >> > >> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef >> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in Martand >> Temple. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list ; List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>; ; _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>; From chiarapassa at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 14:11:31 2008 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:41:31 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] "Interface" forum on discussing exhibition methods about internet-art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends & colleagues, I'm glad to suggest you this forum http://cont3xt.net/interference/discuss/index.php on discussing exhibition methods about Internet-art in physical space. Amici e colleghi, vi segnalo questo forum http://cont3xt.net/interference/discuss/index.php che accoglie discussioni su i metodi per curare internet-art in spazi fisici. Some theories: Alcuni link su teorie: Arns, Inke / Lillemose, Jacob (2005): It's Contemporary Art, Stupid http://www.projects.v2.nl/%7Earns/Texts/Media/ArticleforArgos-Arns-Lillemose.pdf Art-Place-Technology Symposium (2006): I Organise Stuff therefore I Am http://www.art-place-technology.org/blog/?p=4 Art-Place-Technology Symposium (2006): Curator is a Title you Earn, not Take http://www.art-place-technology.org/blog/?p=7 Art-Place-Technology Symposium (2006): The Museum and the Digital Archive http://www.art-place-technology.org/blog/?p=8 Art-Place-Technology Symposium (2006): Who is Collecting New Media Art? http://www.art-place-technology.org/blog/?p=9 Ayers, Robert (2007): Code in a Box (about collecting New Media Art) http://www.artinfo.com/articles/story/25445 Baker, Camille (2007): New Media CURATING Hell—part 1 http://blog.furtherfield.org/?q=node/28 Baker, Camille (2007): New Media Curating pt 2—follow-up http://blog.furtherfield.org/?q=node/60 Balkin, Jack M. (2003): Cultural Software: A Theory of Ideology http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/jbalkin/cs/index.htm Bazzichelli, Tatiana (2006): The Networking. The Net as an Artwork http://www.networkingart.eu/english.html Beck, Amanda (2007): Artists Ponder Future of Digital Mona Lisas http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011901084.html Perconte, Jacques (2005): a wiki story of net art (open source), original (incomplete) story is brought to you by Bookchin, Natalie (bookchin-at-action-tank.org) begun 9/99. last update 5/5/01 http://www.technart.fr/NetArtHistory/ Boxer, Sarah (2005): Web Works That Insist on Your Full Attention http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/arts/design/28rhiz.html?ex=1277611200&en=93a6514efbc5a36e&ei=5088%22%02ner=rssnyt%0D&emc=rss Brennan, Shane (2007): New Climates for Curatorial Practice: Exhibiting Art Across Distributed Networks http://shanebrennan.net/climate/curatorial-essay/ Brogger, Andreas (2001): Creative Computer Science: An Introduction to Johan Brucker-Cohen http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Projects/broggerjonahbruc.html Brogger, Andreas (2001): Art in a Culture of Cut-Copy-and-Paste http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/broggerartinacul.html Brogger, Andreas (2001): Net art, web art, online art, net.art? http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/broggernetart,we.html Buigues, Ana (2007): Ars Publica—Curatorial Report http://newmediafix.net/daily/?p=1287 Carlson, Wayne (2004): A Historical Timeline of Computer Graphics and Animation http://design.osu.edu/carlson/history/timeline.html Carlson, Wayne (2004): A Critical History of Computer Graphics and Animation http://design.osu.edu/carlson/history/lessons.html Cook, Sarah (2002): Net Art, Art Criticism, Curating http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ejesis/artcritic ... ream6.html Cornell, Lauren (2007): An interview with the curators of "Feedback" (Charlie Gere, Christiane Paul, Jemima Rellie) http://rhizome.org/thread.rhiz?thread=2 ... 1#48766%20 Charman, Suw (2008): The Democratisation of Everything and the Curators Who Will Save our Collective Ass http://strange.corante.com/archives/200 ... on_of_ev... Chan, Sebastian / Spadaccini, Jim (2007): Radical Trust: The State of the Museum Blogosphere http://www.archimuse.com/mw2007/papers/ ... ccini.html Debatty, Régine (2007): Interview with Sarah Cook http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/ar ... 009560.php Dietz, Steve (2007): Collecting New Media Art: Just Like Anything Else http://neme.org/main/524/collecting-new-media-art Dietz, Steve (1998): Curating (On) the Web http://www.archimuse.com/mw98/papers/di ... heweb.html Dietz, Steve (2001): Why have there been no great Net Artists http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/dietzwhyhavether.html Dietz, Steve (2002): Ten Dreams of Technology http://www.nydigitalsalon.org/10/essay.php?essay=8 Draxler, Helmut (2001): The Allegorical Impulse of the Curator, An interview with Fareed Armaly http://www.fareedarmaly.net/CV/a_armaly_draxgE.htm Dziekan, Vince (2005): Beyond the Museum Walls: Situating Art in Virtual Space http://journal.fibreculture.org/issue7/issue7_dzekian.html -empyre- archives (2003): net art, curating and power https://mail.cofa.unsw.edu.au/mailman/htdig/empyre/2003-March/msg00013.html Fisher, Matthew / Twiss-Garrity, Beth A. (2007): Remixing Exhibits: Constructing Participatory Narratives with On-Line Tools to Augment Museum Experiences http://www.archimuse.com/mw2007/papers/fisher/fisher.html Gere, Charlie (2006): Network Art and the Networked Gallery http://www.tate.org.uk/netart/networkgallery.htm Gere, Charlie (2004): New Media Art and the Gallery in the Digital Age http://www.tate.org.uk/research/tateresearch/tatepapers/04autumn/gere.htm Gleeson, Regina (2004): Dislocate, Renegotiate and Flow. Part I: Globalisation's Impact on Art Practice http://www.culturalfishing.net/dislocate1.html Gleeson, Regina (2004): Dislocate, Renegotiate and Flow. Part II: The Practice of Process http://www.culturalfishing.net/dislocate2.html Gleeson, Regina (2004): Dislocate, Renegotiate and Flow. Part III: The Mercurial Curatorial http://www.culturalfishing.net/dislocate3.html Granter, Beth (2006): Essay on Curating New Media http://bethgranter.wordpress.com/files/2007/02/curatingnewmediaart-noappendix.pdf Greene, Rachel (2000): Web Work: A HISTORY OF INTERNET ART http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0268/is_9_38/ai_65649375/print Goriunova, Olga (2007): Internet platforms: cultural production in late capitalism http://www.networkcultures.org/networktheory/index.php?onderdeelID=12&paginaID=75&itemID=197 Harding, Anna (1997): Everything http://www.chanceprojects.com/node/337 Harris, Jonathan (2002): Control, Alt, Delete? http://www.metamute.org/en/Control-Alt-Delete Hancock, Mark R. (2005): Curation Mastication Preservation http://www.furtherfield.org/displayreview.php?review_id=133 Hutchinson, Mark / Beech, Dave (2005): On Expertise, Curation & the Possibility of the Public http://www.slashseconds.org/issues/001/003/articles/mhutchinsondbeech/index.php Ippolito, Jon (1998/1999): The Museum of the Future: A Contradiction in Terms? http://three.org/ippolito/ Ippolito, Jon (2002): Ten Myths of Internet Art http://www.nydigitalsalon.org/10/essay.php?essay=6 Jones, Caitlin (2006): Case Study: CRUMB http://resourceguide.eai.org/collection/computer/casestudy_crumb.html Kaplan, Steve (2006): The Limits of Pedagogy and the Specter of the Dysfunctional Museum http://post.thing.net/node/1097 Klütsch, Christoph (2007): Computer Graphic—Aesthetic Experiments between Two Cultures http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/leon.2007.40.5.421 Krysa, Joasia (2006): Introduction - Curating Immateriality: The Work of the Curator in the Age of Network Systems http://www.data-browser.net/03/DB03introduction.pdf Levi Strauss, David (2006): The Bias of the World: Curating After Szeemann & Hopps http://brooklynrail.org/2006/12/art/the-bias-of-the-world Lewis, Peter (2005): On Curating http://www.slashseconds.org/issues/001/003/articles/01_plewis/index.php Lichty, Patrick (2007): The Role of the Later Career New Media Artist http://post.thing.net/node/1223 Lichty, Patrick (2002): Reconfiguring the Museum. Electronic Media and Emergent Curatorial Models http://www.intelligentagent.com/archive/Vol3_No1_curation_lichty.html MacGregor, Brent (2002): Cybernetic Serendipity Revisited http://design.osu.edu/carlson/history/PDFs/cyberserendipity.pdf MA Curatorial Practice Archive: Curating Now 01 http://www.cca.edu/curatingarchive/archives/CuratingNow01.pdf MA Curatorial Practice Archive: Curating Now 04 http://www.cca.edu/curatingarchive/archives/CuratingNow04.pdf MA Curatorial Practice Archive: Curating Now 05 http://sites.cca.edu/curatingarchive/archive/CuratingNow05.pdf MA Curatorial Practice Archive: Curating Now 06 http://sites.cca.edu/curatingarchive/archives/CuratingNow06.pdf Makewell, Terry (2007): User-generated exhibitions at museums http://www.nzlive.com/blog/2007/08/20/user-generated-exhibitions-at-museums/ Manovich, Lev (2002): Models of Authorship in New Media http://switch.sjsu.edu/nextswitch/switch_engine/front/front.php?artc=65 Manovich, Lev (2002): Ten Key Texts on Digital Art: 1970-2000 http://www.nydigitalsalon.org/10/essay.php?essay=11 Mollin, David (2005): The Curator, So to Speak, Chooses You http://www.slashseconds.org/issues/001/003/articles/dmollin/index.php Morris, Susan (2001): Museums and New Media Art, A research report commissioned by The Rockefeller Foundation http://www.cs.vu.nl/~eliens/archive/refs/Museums_and_New_Media_Art.pdf Mutanen, Ulla Maaria (2006): On Museums and Web 2.0 http://ullamaaria.typepad.com/hobbyprincess/2006/06/museums_and_web.html Montfort, Nick / Wardrip-Fruin, Noah (2004): Acid-Free Bits: Recommendations for Long-Lasting Electronic Literature http://eliterature.org/pad/afb.html Muir, Gregor (2002): Past, Present and Future Tense http://www.nydigitalsalon.org/10/essay.php?essay=7 Naimark, Michael (2002): Nonlinear History of New Media http://stage.itp.nyu.edu/history/index.html Napier, Mark (2001): The Aesthetics of Programming http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/napiertheaesthet.html Obrist, Hans-Ulrich (1996): Mind Over Matter—Interview with Harald Szeemann http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0268/is_n3_v35/ai_18963443/print Obrist, Hans-Ulrich (2001): Evolutional Exhibitions http://www.attese.it/attese1/article13/index.html O'Neil, Paul: Curating (2005): Practice Becoming Common Discourse http://www.slashseconds.org/issues/001/003/articles/poneil/index.php Paul, Christiane (2002): Collaborative Curatorial Models and Public Curation http://switch.sjsu.edu/nextswitch/switch_engine/front/front.php?artc=70 Paul, Christiane (2007): Challenges for a Ubiquitous Museum: Presenting and Preserving New Media http://neme.org/main/571/preserving-new-media Paul, Christiane (2007): MYTHS OF IMMATERIALITY: Curating, Collecting and Archiving Media Art http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/en/department/bildwissenschaft/veranstaltungen/telelectures/archiv/index.php Paul, Christiane (2002): Renderings of Digital Art http://www.nydigitalsalon.org/10/essay.php?essay=5 Shalem, Efrat / Toister, Yanai (2005): The Matrix of Curating http://www.slashseconds.org/issues/001/003/articles/eshalem/index.php Shanken, Edward A. (originally 1998): The House That Jack Built: Jack Burnham's Concept of "Software" as a Metaphor for Art http://www.artexetra.com/House.html Silva, Luís / et al (2005): On blogging as curating http://vercodigofonte.blogspot.com/2005/11/on-blogging-as-curating.html Schlieben, Katharina (2002): Curating Per-Form. Reflections on the Concept of the Performative http://www.kunstverein-muenchen.de/?dir=03_ueberlegungen_considerations&strShowFile=en_performative_curating.kvm Schleiner, Anne-Marie (2002): Fluidities and Oppositions among Curators, Filter Feeders and Future Artists http://www.intelligentagent.com/archive/Vol3_No1_curation_schleiner.html Scholz, Trebor (2006): Curating New Media Art I http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/2006-April/001439.html Scholz, Trebor (2006): Curating New Media Art II http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/2006-April/001444.html Schulz, Pit (2006): The Producer as Power User http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0606/msg00136.html Smith, Finn (2006): Curating Self-Consciously http://www.metamute.org/en/Curating-Self-Consciously Stuart, Keith (2007): Yesterday's Games could be Gold Dust to Collectors http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/apr/19/games.guardianweeklytechnologysection2 Sutton, Gloria (2004): Exhibiting New Media Art (Part 1 of 2) http://kris.constantvzw.org/?p=20 Tate Modern (2005): Curating, Immateriality, Systems (conference) http://www.tate.org.uk/onlineevents/archive/CuratingImmaterialitySystems Tribe, Mark / Jana, Reena (2007-present): New Media Art (wiki) https://wiki.brown.edu/confluence/display/MarkTribe/New%2BMedia%2BArt Tribe, Mark (2001): Archiving net.art http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/tribearchivingne.html Verschooren, Karen (2007): .art - Situating Internet Art in the Traditional Institution for Contemporary Art http://cms.mit.edu/research/theses/KarenVerschooren2007.pdf Weil, Benjamin (2001): Untitled - A Brief History of äda'web http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/weiluntitled-abr.html Weil, Benjamin (2001): Readme.txt - An Exploration of Various Directions in Networked Art Projects http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/weilreadme.txt.html Weil, Benjamin (2002): Art in Digital Times: From Technology to Instrument http://www.nydigitalsalon.org/10/essay.php?essay=9 Williams, Alena (2002): Net Art and Process. Some Thoughts on Curatorial Practice http://switch.sjsu.edu/nextswitch/switch_engine/front/front.php?artc=99 Winkelmann, Jan (2001): Failure as a poetic dimension. A conversation with Harald Szeemann http://www.jnwnklmnn.de/szeem_e.htm -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador Skype: ideasonair From alice at tank.tv Wed Nov 5 20:02:20 2008 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 14:32:20 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] tank.tv: 1st 2008/9 International Call for Submissions Message-ID: <442eb4460811050632r3fa15957oedea043bf7ffa092@mail.gmail.com> *tank.tv 1st International Call for Submissions - Solo Shows on www.tank.tv tank.tv is inviting submissions from artists who wish to be considered for two week solo exhibitions on www.tank.tv.* In 2009 tank.tv will be hosting an ambitious series of solo shows from established and emerging artists working with the moving image. We would like to allocate 3 of these shows to artists who respond to a series of three open calls for entries. You must have a body of work consisting of at least 10 moving image pieces that are ready for exhibition and which run no longer than ten minutes (although we are happy to consider excerpts from longer pieces). We will consider all forms of moving image work and welcome submissions from artists working at any stage of their careers, of all nationalities. The first selected artist will have a two week online show early in 2009 and be part of our external events programme which will be toured to galleries and institutions internationally. Deadline: 10th December 2008. Please submit examples of work (accompanied by a submission form, downloadable from www.tank.tv) as Quicktime files or on mini DV to: tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA UK If you have any questions about this opportunity then please get in touch with Alice O'Reilly, alice at tank.tv. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Alice O'Reilly tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA alice at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: Ken Jacobs, curated by Mark Webber. 1st October - 30th November 2008 Fresh Moves - Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 15:18:50 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:18:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Launch of EmpowerindIndia.org Message-ID: Dear all, Liberty Institute announces the launch of www.EmpoweringIndia.org in Cochin and Hyderabad on Nov 8 and 12 respectively. Please visit the following web links for programme details. Nov 8: Cochin - http://www.indefenceofliberty.org/story.aspx?id=2092&pubid=1885 Nov 12: Hyderabad - http://www.indefenceofliberty.org/story.aspx?id=2090&pubid=1884 www.EmpoweringIndia.org is an initiative of the Liberty Institute. Information about electoral candidates and constituencies have been hosted on this site with the aim of helping voters to decide who to cast their votes for during elections and to use this information after elections to hold elected representatives accountable. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 01:46:39 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 01:46:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America In-Reply-To: References: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> Message-ID: <564b2fca0811051216u7943c3afl4011a2d35bb708d2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gautam, Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown out of their jhopad pattis. I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy that Obama has won. Naga On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: > Dear All, > > I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I > wrote for elsewhere. > > - gautam > > Cross-posted from Kafila.org > > A Letter from America > > I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the > most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, > that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no > different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit > by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California > are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this > district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they > were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. > > My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, > with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we > call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian > American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America > students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. > My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to > remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look > only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the > apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not > easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. > This is another part of America that has elected Obama. > > I saw the election results come in with community organisers, > activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears > I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They > are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the > slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is > bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that > has elected Obama. > > > There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years > of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. > Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and > celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every > corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America > doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush > out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for > a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black > Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions > in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. > > Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will > not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural > inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and > planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers > much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be > so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this > hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope > at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will > have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories > of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. > Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope > that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. > > After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive > wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this > landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, > shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look > inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its > imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is > a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of > change can understand and support. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 03:55:37 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 17:25:37 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America References: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> <564b2fca0811051216u7943c3afl4011a2d35bb708d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36CBC5066C09462DB562FF503CDA1E3C@tara> Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope after 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud to be actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world looks at the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the world. The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more room to work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot globalization. And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or more poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we have reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place without Dick and Bush. I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh mostly practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and his party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. There is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope that his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said during his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism has been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; yes we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nagraj Adve" To: "gautam bhan" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > Dear Gautam, > Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times > acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was > throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what > heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a > emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of > communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and > Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first > trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay > become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown > out of their jhopad pattis. > I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too > am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that > Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much > for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so > many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that > has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration > will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that > Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, > including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but > only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, > Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. > The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, > particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic > crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his > administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. > Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because > people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand > even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be > easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy > that Obama has won. > Naga > > On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >> wrote for elsewhere. >> >> - gautam >> >> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >> >> A Letter from America >> >> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, >> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they >> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >> >> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we >> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >> students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. >> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look >> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >> >> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that >> has elected Obama. >> >> >> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years >> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for >> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions >> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >> >> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will >> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories >> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >> >> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is >> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >> change can understand and support. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mrsg at vsnl.com Thu Nov 6 07:49:47 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:49:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring PoliticalMapDuringEmergency References: <579337.60882.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004b01c93fb6$265b1170$0201a8c0@MRAY> Dear Khemendra Kaul, My only request to you that to know the plights of the Hindus of Bangladesh and nature of Islam in Bangladesh, do not be misguided by the apologists of Islamic barbarism who can cover the hard facts of Islamic fundamentalism by their long academic discourses (and some blatant lies like observing Durga Puja freely) to confuse the issue. The atrocities, tortures and ethnic cleansing of the Hindus from Bangladesh have few parallels in the modern history which is still going on everyday. It is also another greatest fraud daily carried out by Indian and specifically of Bengali (West Bengal) press that do not publish anything on it. I shall request you to go through the websites of Bangladesh Hindu-Bouddha-Christian Oikya Parishad or Bangladesh Hindu Buddhists Christian Unity Councils, the publications of Shariar Kabir (an amnesty international prisoner of conscience), the publications of Prof. Abul Barkat (Head, Economics Dept, Dhaka University), Prof Muntasir Mamun (Head, History Dept, Dhaka University) to know about the recent situations in Bangladesh. Bangladesh which tries to hide its barbaric face under the hizab of 'moderate islam' , has killed Humayun Azad, a major Bengali writer and thinker, driven away a number of writers like Daud Haider to Taslima Nasrin. Think of another country with such record. Just remember when you read this, on that very day some hundreds of Hindus (also the Muslim infiltrators) are crossing the border to flee Bangladesh. It happens everyday. It is no intellectual acrobatics, no friendly fire of academic discourses - it is simply worst ethnic cleansing in human history carried out by Islamic Bangladesh. While saying so much against the Islamists of Bangladesh, it needs to be mentioned that this could go on forever only because of the hypocrisy and cowardice of the Bengali caste Hindu refugees and leftists. These comments are strictly for those who sincerely want to know about Bangladesh and want to help the religious minorities there. This is not for introducing a new agenda in the list to continue intellectual acrobatics. At least I shall not join in that futile effort. Thanks M Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kshmendra Kaul" To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "sarai list" ; ; "Shambhu Rahmat" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political MapDuringEmergency > Dear Shuddha > > Thank you for the very informative comments on Bangladesh. > > Before raising some points, I must admit that, before joining this List, > my knowledge about Bangladesh was restricted to one of a general sort. Not > surprisingly so for the general sort of a person' that I am. So I must > thank this List for adding to it and provoking further interest in > Bangladesh - especially guys like Naeem Mohaiemen and Shambhu Rehmat. > > If not declaredly so in it's Constitution, the Islamic nature of > Bangladesh is fairly well embedded in the Constitution. It is a 'default > setting' which cannot be overridden in the present form of the > Constitution. > > "Present Form" of the Constitution is important is it not? That is what > governs the lives of the citizens and defines how a country, any country, > is percieved by the rest of the world in terms of the idealised principles > meant for governing the country. > > In the Indian Constitution for example the words "socialist" and "secular" > got first added in the Preamble by the 42nd Amendment when India was > governed by Indira Gandhi in 1976 under the"Emergency". Little different > from it being a dictatorial regime. But the 'words' stayed on in the > Constitution even with the restoration of Democratic norms. So, even if > practice does not keep up with the idealised self-view (that any > Constitution is), those 'words' are a part of what governs (or is meant to > govern) the lives of Indians and how India will be percieved by the rest > of the world in terms of the principles guiding it. > > Same is the case with the "Islamic" character of Bangladesh, since the > 'added' provisions have not been rescinded even if the provisions were > added by Military Dictatorship under "Proclamation Order No 1 of 1977" > (PO1 1977) and 'Eighth Amendment Act of 1988' (EAA 1988). > > Between the 'intended' and the 'actualised' (by whichever means and at > whatever stage) the latter provides the characteristics of the > Constitution and the Laws derived from it. This is true of India or of > Bangladesh or any other country. Jinnah's address to the first Constituent > Assembly of Pakistan contains the finest of definitions of a "secular" > country but that is not what Pakistan became. > > Yes, as you pointed out, there do not seem to be any Constitutional > Disabilities specific for Non-Muslims. But there are many ambiguities > which provide grey areas that can easily serve as fertile ground for such > interpretative licence that will create disabling norms without > contravening the Constitution. > > As an illustratively blunt example, let me point out the words " together > with the principles derived from them" in the Article 8.1 that could > extend to any domain the injunction of " absolute trust and faith in the > Almighty Allah". (in the Fundamental Principles of State Policy). Shariah > and Sunnah certainly can be seen as "principles derived from ....absolute > trust and faith in the Almighty Allah". Or at the very least that "Statues > are Haraam, even if they are of Baul singers (Lalon or no Lalon)" > > You have already given some examples of ambiguities and other (introduced > by dictators) 'Islamic' provisions, which are included in the points > mentioned below, where I have given additional examples of the "Islamic > embedment": > > - Invocation for the Constitution : "BISMILLAH-AR-RAHIMAN-AR-RAHIM" (PO1 > 1977) > > - In the Preamble: "Pledging that the high ideals of absolute trust and > faith in the Almighty Allah, ......." > > - Art 2A: "The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other > religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic." (EAA > 1988) > > - (In Fundamental Principles) Art 8.1: "The principles of absolute trust > and faith in the Almighty Allah, nationalism, democracy and socialism > meaning economic and social justice, together with the principles derived > from them as set out in this Part, shall constitute the fundamental > principles of state policy." (PO1 1977) (KK-interpretative license) > > - (In Fundamental Principles) Art 8.1A: "Absolute trust and faith in the > Almighty Allah shall be the basis of all actions" (PO1 1977) > > - Deletion of Art 12 dealing with "Secularism and Freedom of Religion" > (PO1 1977) > > - Art 25.2: "The State shall endeavour to consolidate, preserve and > strengthen fraternal relations among Muslim countries based on Islamic > solidarity" (KK- Islamised Foreign Policy) > > To highlight the generousness of ambiguities and I daresay contradictions > that have crept into the Constitution of Bangladesh, I must, while > pointing out the "Islamic Embedment" provisions, also list the "Testifying > to Secularism" provisions that have stayed on inspite of (PO1 1977) and > (EAA 1988): > > Art 27: Equality before law - All citizens are equal before law and are > entitled to equal protection of law > > Art 28: Discrimination on grounds of religion, etc. > 1. The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of > religion, race caste, sex or place of birth > 3. No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex or > place of birth be subjected to any disability, liability, restriction or > condition with regard to access to any place of public entertainment or > resort, or admission to any educational institution. > > Art 29.2: No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex > or place of birth, be ineligible for, or discriminated against in respect > of, any employment or office in the service of the Republic. > > Art 41: Freedom of religion > 1. every citizen has the right to profess, practice or propagate any > religion; > 2. every religious community or denomination has the right to establish, > maintain and manage its religious institutions > > Incidentally, the system for amending the Constitution is quite > straightforward though it does require a two-thirds assent vote. The > 'sacrosant' provisions such as the Preamble and Fundamental Rights need > for amending the two-thirds assent vote followed by a majority support in > a general referendum. > > It has been, if nothing else, a good opportunity for me to study the > Constitution of Bangladesh. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map > During Emergency > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" , "Shambhu Rahmat" > > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 1:25 AM > > > Bangladesh is not, strictly speaking, an 'Islamic' country. The official > title of the state is - The Peoples Republic of Bangladesh. > > > The post 'liberation' November 1972 constitution of Bangladesh made no > mention of religion except to say that the state would not discriminate on > the grounds of religion. It explicitly asserted that 'secularism' was to > be seen as a guiding instrument of state policy. > > > Islamic references were introduced into the constitution of Bangladesh > during two periods of military dictatorship, First, under the reign of > General Zia ur Rahman, an amendment to the Constitution in 1977 removed > the principle of secularism that had been enshrined in Part II: > Fundamental State Policy, replacing it with "absolute trust and faith in > Almighty Allah." > > > Then, The Eighth Amendment of 1988, during the dictatorship of General > Ershad, inserted Article 2A, affirming that "[t]he state religion of the > Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practised in peace and > harmony in the republic." This is somewhat of an ambiguous contradiction, > because while it states that the state religion is Islam, it also > simultaneously does shies away from asserting that Islam has any de-facto > primacy. > > > Neither of these two amendments, however, has had popular democratic > sanction, and both have been viewed as a negation of the founding > principles of the liberation struggle which gave rise to Bangladesh. I am > not a partisan of the secular Bengali Nationalism that inspired many > during the liberation struggle, but I do know that the thousands of East > Bengali Muslims, Hindus and others who willingly participated in that > struggle did not do so in the belief that they were going to create an > 'Islamic' Bengal. > > > It has been argued, not without reason, that they could have been > introduced into the constitution, through the back door, as it were, only > during periods of military dictatorship. The current situation in > Bangladesh, where the Lalon statues can be removed, is also imaginable > only within the context of a military dictatorship, dressed up as > 'transitional' civilian power. Military dictators in Bangladesh have > always had to give their particularly corrupt despotisms the gloss and > shine of Islam. > > > Despite both these amendments, Islamic law, the Sharia or the Sunnah are > still not the primary sources of law in the legal system in Bangladesh, > and no constitutional disabilities are attatched (unlike in Pakistan, > Iran, Saudi Arabia or other Islamic states) to non Muslim citizens. > Bangladesh continues to have a thriving 10% Hindu population, most of whom > are wealthy, middle class and found in urban areas. Many of them have > found and sought their own accommodations with corrupt military > dictatorships. Durga Puja, for instance, continues to be observed with as > much pomp and ostentation in Bangladesh as in neighbouring West Bengal. It > is the Buddhist aboriginal minorities in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, and > of course, Ahmediyas who have had to face real persecution in the name of > Islam. > > > Nothing in the constitution of Bangladesh prevents a non muslim from > holding political office, including that of the head of the state or > government. In practice, the legal position vis a vis Islam in Bangladesh > is less special even in comparison to that of the Church of England in the > United Kingdom, or the Dutch Reformed Church in the Netherlands. > > > In practice, however, Bangladeshi politicians (of many varieties, and not > only of the explicitly 'Islamist' parties) patronize Islamic > fundamentalist goons exactly as their Indian counterparts patronize Hindu > and Islamic fundamentalist goons in India. > > > > Nothing, to me makes the removal of the Lalon statue appear sensible. It > would not have been the case had Bangladesh indeed been a full fledged > Islamic state (which it is not) nor does it make sense in the context of > the current token 'Islamic' window dressing that adorns the (some) > Peoples' Republic of Bangladesh > > > best > > > Shuddha > > > > On 29-Oct-08, at 6:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Confining comments to the removal of the Baul Sculpture (whether it > included or not the statue of Lalon Fakir) > > Two weeks back, in a private mail, I had conveyed the following thoughts: > > """""""" The rationale behind the demand for removal of the statues makes > sense. The news report says that the statues are in the 'hajj camp' area > of the Airport. That would sure be upsetting. > > Bangladesh is an Islamic country so perhaps in any case, wherever it might > be, a 'public' statue can tend to be viewed as something forbidden lest it > leads to deification. Pardon my ignorance, are there such 'public statues' > in Bangladesh? I presume, if none others, there would be many of > Bangbandhu and Nazrul > > I got introduced to Baul Music very late in my life. It is exquisitely > soul-touching. > > Maybe the Bauls, because of the roots, inspiration and content of their > music are especially a 'sore point' cultural inheritance for the Islamists > """"""""" > > That generally seems to be along the lines of the views reported of > Maulana Noor Hossain Noorani, Amir of Khatm-e-Nabuwat Andolon Bangladesh > and Imam of Fayedabad mosque. > > There have been wishful 'thought explorations' on this List and elsewhere > in the public domain about "Union" between India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. > That would neccessarily require some degree of seamless congruity in Laws > spread across the three countries; not only Commercial Laws but Laws > applicable to all aspects of the lives of the citizens. > > Such a "Union" would also require one another important and critical > change (in my opinion). Either India would have to declare itself a > "Hindu" country or Bangladesh and Pakistan declare themselves as > "Secular". > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Shambhu Rahmat wrote: > > > From: Shambhu Rahmat > Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring Political Map During > Emergency > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 1:14 AM > > > http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/28/lalon-terror/ > > > From Rahnuma Ahmed's analysis of Lalon Statue controversy & larger > "great game". > > > 1. 'No decision is taken without the army chief's consent, > that's > why we informed him,' said Maulana Noor Hossain Noorani. According to > reports, highup intelligence agency officials (DGFI, NSI) had mediated > contacts between the ruling party and the KN. He had met the DGFI > chief in Dhaka cantonment thrice, Noorani had thus boasted to Satkhira > reporters in 2005 > 2. Twenty-two months later…with their respective parties in > shambles, thousands of party workers in prison, constitutional rights > suspended due to the state of emergency, economy in tatters, police > crack-downs on protests of garments workers, jute mill workers, > women's organisations and activists, on human chains against > increasing prices of essentials, the only two forces to have remained > unscathed are the Jamaat-e-Islami, and Muslim clerics, Islamic parties > and madrasa students > 3. The US government's role in not only contributing to the > situation, but in constituting the conditions that have given rise to > extremes, of being the extreme, is disregarded by many Bangladesh > scholars > 4. Pakistan, America's strong military ally, is now "on the > edge" > of ruin. Pakistani political analysts repeatedly warn Bangladeshis > that they see similar political patterns at work here: minusing > political leaders, militarisation, milbus, National Security Council > etc etc. Are we being set on America's flight path to greater power by > this unconstitutional, unrepresentative government, one which is more > accountable to western forces, than to us? > > > Lalon and Terror: Re-configuring the Nation's Political Map during > Emergency > by rahnuma ahmed (New Age, Oct 29, 2008) > > > Baul sculpture, and the nation's most powerful man > > > 'No decision is taken without the army chief's consent, that's why > we > informed him,' said Maulana Noor Hossain Noorani, amir of Khatme > Nabuwat Andolon Bangladesh and imam of Fayedabad mosque, at a press > conference. `He didn't like the idea of setting up an idol either, > right in front of the airport, so close to the Haji camp. It was > removed at his initiative' (Prothom Alo, 17 October). > > > The `it' in question was a piece of sculpture, of five Baul mystics > and singers. Titled Unknown Bird in a Cage, it was being created in > front of Zia International Airport, Dhaka. Madrasa students and masjid > imams of adjoining areas were mobilised, Bimanbondor Golchottor Murti > Protirodh Committee (Committee to Resist Idols at Airport Roundabout) > was formed. A 24 hour ultimatum was given. The art work, nearly > seventy percent complete, was removed by employees of the Roads and > Highways Department, and Civil Aviation Authority of Bangladesh. > > > Artists, intellectuals, cultural activists, writers, teachers, > students, and many others have since continuously protested the > removal of the sculpture, both in Dhaka, and other cities and towns of > Bangladesh. They have demanded its restoration, have re-named the > roundabout Lalon Chottor, and accused the military-backed caretaker > government of capitulating, yet again, to the demands of Islamic > extremists, and forces opposing the 1971 war of liberation. > > > Soon after its removal, Fazlul Haq Amini, Chairman of a faction of > Islami Oikya Jote (IOJ) and amir of Islami Ain Bastabayan Committee > (IABC) said at a press conference, if an Islamic government comes to > power, all statues built by Sheikh Hasina's government (1996-2001) > will be demolished, since statues are `dangerously anti-Islamic'. > Eternal flames, Shikha Chironton (Liberation War Museum), and Shikha > Anirban (Dhaka Cantonment) will be extinguished. Paying respect to > fire is the same as worshipping fire.' What about statues built during > Khaleda Zia-led four party alliance government (of which he had been a > part). 'Where, which ones?' Rajshahi University campus was the prompt > reply. `Why didn't you raise these questions when you were in power?' > 'We did, personally, but they didn't listen. We were used as stepping > stones.' Amini also demanded that the National Women Development > Policy 2008, shelved this year after protests by a section of Muslim > clerics and some Islamic parties, should be scrapped (Prothom Alo, 18 > October). > > > Noorani and his followers demand, a haj minar should be built instead, > and the road should be re-named Haj road. 'Men from the administration > and the intelligence agencies,' he said at the press conference, `wore > off their shoes, they kept coming to us.' (Prothom Alo, 17 October). > Now where had I read of close contacts between Khatme Nabuwat and the > intelligence agencies? > > > I remembered. A Human Rights Watch report, Bangladesh: Breach of Faith > (2005) had stated that KN had close links to the ruling BNP through > the Jamaat-e-Islami and the IOJ, its coalition partners. I remembered > other things too. It was the same Noor Hossain Noorani who had said, > Tareq Zia, Senior Secretary General of the BNP, was their "Amir and > same-aged friend," and had threatened police officials saying Tareq > would directly intervene if Khatme Nabuwat's anti-Ahmadiya campaign > was obstructed. According to reports, highup intelligence agency > officials (DGFI, NSI) had mediated contacts between the ruling party > and the KN. He had met the DGFI chief in Dhaka cantonment thrice, > Noorani had thus boasted to Satkhira reporters in 2005, a statement > never publicly refuted by the intelligence agency (Tasneem Khalil, The > Prince of Bogra, Forum, April 2007, issue withdrawn, article available > on the internet). > > > What links does the present military-backed caretaker government, and > more so, its intelligence agencies, have with these extremist groups? > I cannot help but wonder. Is there more to what's happening than meets > the eye? > > > Other questions pop into my head. The Baul sculpture was not > advertised, as public art should be. No open competition, no > shortlisting, no selection panel. On the contrary, the contract seems > to have been awarded as a personal dispensation. The only condition > seems to have been that the sculptor must get-hold-of-a-sponsor. High > regard for public art, for Baul tradition, listed by the UNESCO as a > world cultural heritage, and for procedural matters. Particularly by a > government whose raison d'etre is establishing the rule of law, and > rooting out corruption. > > > Simplifying the present: from `1971′ to the `Talibanisation' of > Bangladesh > > > British historian Eric Hobsbawm terms what he calls the 'short > twentieth century', The Age of Extremes (1994). I can't help but > think, things seem to be getting more extreme in the twenty-first > century. > > > In his most recent book, On Empire. America, War and Global Supremacy > (2008), Hobsbawm traces the rise of American hegemony, the steadily > increasing world disorder in the context of rapidly growing > inequalities created by rampant free-market globalisation, the > American government's use of the threat of terrorism as an excuse for > unilateral deployment of its global power, the launching of wars of > aggression when it sees fit, and its absolute disregard of formerly > accepted international conventions. > > > The US government's role in not only contributing to the situation, > but in constituting the conditions that have given rise to extremes, > of being the extreme, is disregarded by many Bangladesh scholars, > whether at home or abroad. Most of these writings are atrociously > naive, exhibiting a theoretical incapacity to deal with questions of > global inequalities in power. Authors repeatedly portray American > power ― in whichever manifestation, whether economic or cultural, > military or ideological ― as being benign. Two images of Bangladesh > are juxtaposed against each other, a secular Bangladesh of the early > 1970s, the fruit of Bangladesh's liberation struggle of 1971, and a > Talibanised Bangladesh of recent years. `National particularities' and > 'the dynamics of domestic policies' are emphasised (undoubtedly > important), but inevitably at the cost of leaving the policies of US > empire-building efforts un-examined. > > > One instance is Maneeza Hossain, Senior Fellow at the Hudson > Institute, who, in her 60 page study of the growth of Islamism in > Bangladesh politics, tucks in a hurried mention of US' supply of > weaponry to Afghan jihadists, and moves on to call on the US to shake > off its `indifference' to Bangladesh, to use its 'good offices' to > help democratic forces within Bangladesh prevail (The Broken Pendulum. > Bangladesh's Swing to Radicalism, 2007). > > > Ali Riaz, who teaches at Illinois State University, author of God > Willing. The Politics of Islamism in Bangladesh (2004) provides > another instance. International reasons for the rise of militancy are > the Afghan war, internationalisation of resistance to Soviet > occupation, policies of so-called charitable organisations of the > Middle East and Persian Gulf, and (last, it would also seem, the > least) `American foreign policy'. A token mention showing utter > disregard towards 1,273,378 Iraqi deaths, caused by the invasion and > occupation. 1971 was genocidal, but so is the Iraq invasion. On a much > larger scale. Unconcerned, he goes on, policy circles in the US are > `apprehensive' about militancy in Bangladesh. Even now. The solution? > He advocates open debates, particularly between the intelligence > agencies and the political parties (Prothom Alo, 3 February 2008). > > > And then one comes across Farooq Sobhan who claims that president Bush > has 'taken pains' to convince Muslims that the war against terror is > not a war against Islam or a clash of civilizations (no, it's a crime > against humanity). Rather petulantly, he asks, why has Bangladesh, a > Muslim majority country, not figured prominently on the US 'list of > countries to be wooed and cultivated.' Further, he writes, "High on > the US agenda has been the issue of Bangladesh sending troops to > Iraq." Sending 'troops', like crates of banana, or tea? Surely, > there > are substantive issues ― of death and destruction of Iraqis and Iraq, > of war crimes ― involved. > > > Re-configuring Politics during Emergency > > > Creating a level playing field so that free and fair national > elections could be held, that's what the military-backed caretaker > government had promised. Twenty-two months later, after failed > attempts at minusing Khaleda Zia and Sheikh Hasina, with their > respective parties in shambles, thousands of party workers in prison, > constitutional rights suspended due to the state of emergency, economy > in tatters, police crack-downs on protests of garments workers, jute > mill workers, women's organisations and activists, on human chains > against increasing prices of essentials, the only two forces to have > remained unscathed are the Jamaat-e-Islami, and Muslim clerics, > Islamic parties and madrasa students, those who protested against the > Women Development Policy, agitated for the removal of Baul sculptures, > recently caused havoc in the DU Vice Chancellor's office protesting > against newly-enforced admission requirements. Are these accidental, > or deliberate governmental moves? I cannot help but wonder. > > > Several western diplomats ― members of the infamous Tuesday Club, > particularly ambassadors from United States, Britain, Canada, > Australia, and the EU representative ― and also the UN Resident > Coordinator actively intervened in Bangladesh politics prior to 11 > January 2007, in events that led to the emergence of the present > military-backed caretaker goverment. Renata Dessalien did so to > unheard degrees, leading to recent demands that the UN Resident > Coordinator be withdrawn. > > > In a week or so, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon arrives in > Dhaka, to see for himself electoral preparations, and extend support > for the government. A visit that has nothing to do with politics, we > are told. In the eyes of many observers, Ban is one of the most > pro-American secretaries general in it's 62-year history. He has > opposed calls for a swift US withdrawal from Iraq, and is committed to > a beefed-up UN presence in Baghdad. The UN staff committee has > protested Ban's decision saying it would `make the institution > complicit in an intractable US-made crisis' (Washington Post, 24 > September 2007). > > > In the name of bringing 'beauty' to politics in Bangladesh, the > lineaments of political reconfiguration undertaken by this > military-backed caretaker government are becoming ominously clear: > mainstream political parties in shambles, Jamaat-e-Islami intact > (`democratic party,' Richard Boucher, US Assistant Secretary of State, > 2006), Muslim clerics and Islamic forces re-emerging as a political > force under state patronage, and the exercise of rampant power by > western diplomats. > > > A beast in the guise of beauty? Time will tell. > > > On the Flight Path of American Power > > > I borrow the title from British-Pakistani historian Tariq Ali's coming > event: `Pakistan/Afghanistan: on the Flight Path of American Power,' > to be held at Toronto, November 14. > > > Seven years after the US led invasion, Pakistan, America's strong > military ally, is now "on the edge" of ruin. Pakistani political > analysts repeatedly warn Bangladeshis that they see similar political > patterns at work here: minusing political leaders, militarisation, > milbus, National Security Council etc etc. I do not think that an > Obama win will make any difference to the American flight path for > unilateral power. As atute political commentators point out, Obama and > McCain differ on domestic policies, not substantively on US foreign > policy. A couple of days ago, president Bush signed the highest > defense budget since World War II. > > > Maybe there should be an open public debate in Bangladesh, as Ali Riaz > proposes, but with a different agenda: are we being set on America's > flight path to greater power by this unconstitutional, > unrepresentative government, one which is more accountable to western > forces, than to us? > > > Drifting in cage and out again > > > Hark unknown bird does fly > > > Shackles of my heart > > > If my arms could entwine > > > With them I would thee bind > > > ― Fakir Lalon Shah, "Khachar bhitor ochin pakhi," > > > translation by Shahidul Alam. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 09:08:14 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:08:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America In-Reply-To: <36CBC5066C09462DB562FF503CDA1E3C@tara> References: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> <564b2fca0811051216u7943c3afl4011a2d35bb708d2@mail.gmail.com> <36CBC5066C09462DB562FF503CDA1E3C@tara> Message-ID: <564b2fca0811051938t3f2efb19o50550af8134418ad@mail.gmail.com> Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to undermine, would not have come in 1991. The rejection of Naidu in AP in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in agriculture. One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 million (33 to 41 million); the bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely quote at the end of it. Naga On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope after > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud to be > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" > > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world looks at > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the world. > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more room to > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot > globalization. > > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or more > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we have > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place without > Dick and Bush. > > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh mostly > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and his > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. There > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope that > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said during > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism has > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; yes > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: > > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. > > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nagraj Adve" > To: "gautam bhan" > Cc: "sarai list" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > > >> Dear Gautam, >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >> become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >> out of their jhopad pattis. >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >> that Obama has won. >> Naga >> >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >>> wrote for elsewhere. >>> >>> - gautam >>> >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >>> >>> A Letter from America >>> >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >>> >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >>> >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that >>> has elected Obama. >>> >>> >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >>> >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >>> >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >>> change can understand and support. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 10:43:36 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:43:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and its roots . The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it was about Yasin Malik. Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about Œyes, we can (change).¹ Oh to be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. ------ Forwarded Message From: ashish zutshi Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 To: Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 Dear Ms. Jabbar, You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik. I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for writing our ( Kashmiri Migrants) side of the story. Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik on 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. Thanks Ashish Zutshi What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with trends on MSN Lifestyle Try it! ------ End of Forwarded Message From anansi1 at earthlink.net Thu Nov 6 10:55:09 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 00:25:09 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America Message-ID: It's 6am and I'm transferring at Sciphol Airport on my way to Vienna. I have truly never seen such an outpouring of emotion around an American election in my life. Everyone at the airport - the passport control agents, security, bag check people - EVERYONE, is full of hope for a different America. Obama's image is everywhere in Europe. It's truly strange, but beutiful. Paul Nagraj Adve wrote: >Dear Gautam, >Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >out of their jhopad pattis. >I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >that Obama has won. >Naga > >On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >> wrote for elsewhere. >> >> - gautam >> >> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >> >> A Letter from America >> >> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, >> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they >> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >> >> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we >> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >> students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. >> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look >> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >> >> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that >> has elected Obama. >> >> >> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years >> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for >> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions >> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >> >> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will >> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories >> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >> >> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is >> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >> change can understand and support. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 11:12:16 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:12:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, typo: Second sentence should read ŒThe sub-editor decided it was about support to abolish Article 370...¹ I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and its roots . The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it was about Yasin Malik. Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about Œyes, we can (change).¹ Oh to be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. ------ Forwarded Message From: ashish zutshi Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 To: Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 Dear Ms. Jabbar, You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik. I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for writing our ( Kashmiri Migrants) side of the story. Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik on 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. Thanks Ashish Zutshi What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with trends on MSN Lifestyle Try it! ------ End of Forwarded Message From kaksanjay at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 13:10:13 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:10:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! Message-ID: <5c5369880811052340m7b9ab0e1r792dc955cba7b74f@mail.gmail.com> For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for the truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. Bollywood's A list is all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. And they are giving it their best: Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will play Islamist Asiya Andrabi. Please read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising Kashmir. http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8133 "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" Rising Kashmir News Srinagar, Nov 4: Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have pro-Kashmir sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that the glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi in his film 'Lamha'. Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his film is entirely pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of Kashmiri people. "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony which Kashmiri people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of Kashmiri people I cannot do justice with my film," he said. Spewing his anger against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary forces and police in Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I will show how army, CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on innocent Kashmiris." He claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations of Kashmiri people. "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. She she is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. He said Lamha has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about Kashmir as the film will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience around the world. "The two years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood films about Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why I want to shoot this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," he added. He revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian troopers whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding photos of their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris being harassed by troops asking them to prove their identity and other painful incidents which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are dialogues in the film where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or not it makes breaking news for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who have not seen their husbands since 17 years are not newsworthy." Dholakia said that at the end of the day, a question will be asked to the audience as to who should be held accountable for the ongoing tyranny in Kashmir. "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri girls are picked up and raped, no one does anything about it. Indians have been made to believe that a Kashmiri is a militant which is absolutely false, incorrect and ridiculous," he said. Dholakia said he wants to convey that Kashmiris are most sensitive, emotional and fine human beings who have been cheated year after year by various governments. From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 13:58:18 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:58:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! In-Reply-To: <5c5369880811052340m7b9ab0e1r792dc955cba7b74f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880811052340m7b9ab0e1r792dc955cba7b74f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fcaee300811060028m30d6c084o786f6d1c7d687757@mail.gmail.com> Here is some more to add to this post: http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20081105/914/ten-lamha-will-depict-kashmir-s-pain-say.html 'Lamha' will depict Kashmir's pain, says director Dholakia Wed, Nov 5 07:29 PM Srinagar, Nov 5 (IANS) Bollywood filmmaker Rahul Dholakia, Wednesday said that his forthcoming movie 'Lamha' would depict the pain and suffering of Kashmir even though it was essentially a love story. 'I will be hated outside after the release of 'Lamha'. It will depict Kashmir's pain and suffering as I have seen during the two years of research for my film," Dholakia told reporters here. He said that his movie, which stars Sanjay Dutt, Bipasha Basu and Anupam Kher, would be a 'pro-Kashmir film'. The director added that he fully understood the humiliation and the pain the locals suffered when non-resident troopers asked them for identity proof. "I have met a senior separatist leader and many people here and I have assured them that my film will portray Kashmir in its true perspective. "I have been to a village called Dardpora where hundreds of widows still wait with photographs of their husbands and sons to return home. All that will be there in my film," Dholakia said. The shooting of Dholakia's film had run into rough weather here. Kashmiri fruit traders last week intervened to stop the shooting at the fruit market as they feared the movie might portray them in bad light. On Monday, students of a college in south Kashmir's Anantnag district took exception to some of the portions being shot inside the campus premises and the principal then asked the film crew to withdraw. On Wednesday too, the film's shoot was interrupted by a few people while they were filming in uptown Maharaja Bazaar area. Dholakia has earlier made the critically acclaimed film 'Parzania' about a boy who went missing in the 2002 Gujarat communal violence. http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/international/2008/October/international_October2173.xml§ion=international&col = Kashmiri Fruit Traders Stop Movie Shoot (IANS) 31 October 2008 SRINAGAR - Kashmiri fruit traders on Thursday intervened to stop the shooting of director Rahul Dholakia's movie 'Lamha' in the states' summer capital Srinagar fearing the film might portray them in a bad light. "I was informed by my colleagues in the Parimpora fruit market that a film unit had set up a shoot there today," Bashir Ahmad Bashir, the president of the fruit market in Srinagar, told IANS. "They were shooting some actor wearing a 'pheren' (traditional woollen garment) wielding a gun during the shooting. "I met the director, Dholakia, and asked him whether he had taken permission from the local authorities and also from our association to shoot his film inside the fruit market. "After he failed to show us any permission, we politely told him to wind up the shoot and they readily agreed to do so. We also requested them to delete the parts of the film they had shot inside the fruit market today." He also said their intervention had become necessary as the local traders feared anything negative shown in a film about Kashmiri fruit traders would affect the entire industry adversely. Dholakia had earlier made the critically acclaimed film 'Parzania' about a boy who went missing in the 2002 Gujarat communal violence. When IANS contacted him about Thursday's incident, Dholakia said: "We had sought permission from some shopkeepers in the fruit market for the shoot who perhaps had not informed the office bearers of the fruit traders association and that is why the hiccup occurred today." *- IANS* "Mine is a positive film about Kashmir and we are going ahead with the shoot. These hiccups are part of filmmaking and I fully understand the situation in Kashmir." The director also said 'Lamha' was a love story. The film stars Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu. "It is a commercial movie and there are no political overtones to it. Yes, it talks of love in today's Kashmir," Dholakia told IANS here. When asked about the pheren-wearing, weapon-wielding actor being part of the shoot at the local fruit market, the director said: "He was a body guard and not part of the actors in the film." Fruit traders in the valley had suffered huge losses earlier this year as the highway carrying their produce was blocked for days due to protests in Jammu against cancellation of land for the Amarnath shrine board. - --------------------------------------- On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for > the > truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. > Bollywood's A list is all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. > And they are giving it their best: Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will > play Islamist Asiya Andrabi. > Please read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising Kashmir. > http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8133 > > "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" > > Rising Kashmir News > Srinagar, Nov 4: > > Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have pro-Kashmir > sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that the > glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi in > his film 'Lamha'. > Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his film is entirely > pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of Kashmiri people. > "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony which Kashmiri > people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of Kashmiri > people > I cannot do justice with my film," he said. > Spewing his anger against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary > forces and police in Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I > will show how army, CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on > innocent Kashmiris." > He claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and > Bipasha Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations > of > Kashmiri people. > "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. She she > is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. > He said Lamha has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about > Kashmir as the film will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience > around the world. > "The two years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood > films about Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why > I > want to shoot this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," > he added. > He revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian > troopers whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding > photos of their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris > being harassed by troops asking them to prove their identity and other > painful incidents which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are > dialogues in the film where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or > not it makes breaking news for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who > have not seen their husbands since 17 years are not newsworthy." > Dholakia said that at the end of the day, a question will be asked to the > audience as to who should be held accountable for the ongoing tyranny in > Kashmir. > "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri girls are picked up and raped, no > one > does anything about it. Indians have been made to believe that a Kashmiri > is > a militant which is absolutely false, incorrect and ridiculous," he said. > Dholakia said he wants to convey that Kashmiris are most sensitive, > emotional and fine human beings who have been cheated year after year by > various governments. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 14:03:25 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:33:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <530660.58309.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> For those interested in reading it, here is the subject piece:   HINDUSTAN TIMES Sonia Jabbar November 04, 2008   "Not special, but equal"   A couple of weeks ago I stood by a bed in the ICU of a Srinagar hospital. Sixteen-year-old Zeeshan Puruzgar’s chest heaved like bellows.  He had been shot through the liver the day before, at point blank range, by the Central Reserve Police Force during a demonstration. A few hours later I visited 14-year-old Waseem Ahmad Wani at another hospital.  Half his face was swathed in bandages where the tear gas shell had hit him directly, smashing his mandible. “We fire warning shots and they still keep coming,” a senior police officer confessed later. “We’ve tried everything: tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, but nothing stops them."   Is the announcement of elections by the Centre a clumsy attempt to calm this rage? This was done by steam-rolling the advice of all mainstream political parties which strongly felt a hiatus was necessary for a population traumatised by the events of this summer. While no one denies the desirability of a stable, elected government, the violence witnessed in Kashmir between June and October should have made policy makers pause and reflect. If elections are the answer, why is it that after 12 years of uninterrupted ‘normalcy’ Kashmir erupted in the way that it did, and why have popular governments been unable to address Kashmiri anger and alienation?   Dodging brickbats and tear gas shells in downtown Srinagar near the Jamia Masjid, I attempted to understand what is fuelling this rage long after the Amarnath fracas was over. Sheltering from the police in the narrow lanes I discovered that each of the angry young boys, aged 11 to 17, went to school regularly, and the young men in their 20s were either undergraduates or studying for their MBAs, or shop owners. One even worked for a prestigious non-governmental organisation. This was hardly the expected profile of a stone-pelting mob. In Kashmir this represents a broader phenomenon that is yet to be understood.   According to the 2001 Census, of the Valley’s 5.4 million population, 71 per cent is under the age of 35 years; and of this 3.8 million people, 74 per cent are educated. In other words, the overwhelming majority of the population either cannot remember or has never experienced the time before war. It is the educated youth who rightly question why it is that notwithstanding prime ministerial promises of insaniyat or ‘zero tolerance towards human rights violations’, the highest authority of democratic India could not prevent the 2007 Ganderbal fake encounter, or that during the 2008 Amarnath agitation, how is it that only three people were killed in police firing in Jammu, despite rampaging mobs lynching policemen, while 57 Kashmiris were shot dead for stone-pelting during the same period?   Every Kashmiri household has a story which ranges from enforced disappearances, rape and torture to more quotidian humiliations, like security forces ransacking your home in the middle of the night, a jawan cross-examining a judge at a checkpoint, a young boy being interrogated and slapped about on mere suspicion, and another being asked to prove his identity in his own neighbourhood by a uniformed outsider. For all India’s talk of democracy, in practice the Kashmiri youth observes daily the State’s intolerance of dissent. While Yasin Malik has been jailed under the draconian Public Safety Act for a peaceful demonstration against elections, Sajjad Lone — who had defied the ISI and supported the elections in 2002 — has found his Pakistani wife and two infant children repeatedly being denied entry into India.   The response to the collective memory of injustice cannot be the simulacrum of democracy. In the 12 years since the 1996 elections, levels of violence may have reduced, but that reduction is meaningless to the young man or woman who perceives State violence as arbitrary and justice as non-existent. Successive state governments, unable to attract investment and industry, have done little but dispense patronage in the form of government jobs to a select few. Kashmiris have missed out on the great Indian middleclass dream: J&K’s GDP is half of the national average and its per capita income of Rs 19,535 (2006-07) is Rs 10,000 less than the rest of India. An estimated 400,000 youth are unemployed, half of whom are college graduates who find themselves marginalised, unable to marry and provide for their families. It is this large population — angry and isolated — that runs the risk of being drawn into a new cycle of militancy.   What is the way out?  Discussions with the young stone-pelters yielded simple solutions. Each, without hesitation, said he wanted azadi, but when pressed to define it more precisely the overwhelming majority defined azadi to mean a demilitarised Kashmir. “You can’t expect a person to walk normally if his foot has a thorn lodged in it,” said the MBA student. “We want peace, but are humiliated daily by the security forces. The Centre says militancy is down, so why can’t troops go home? You people think you’ve given us Article 370 and that we should be thrilled, but we don’t need a special relationship, we want to be treated as equal citizens who can simply live and work in peace and dignity.”   Sonia Jabbar is an independent journalist   http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=621b6ad1-5b06-458b-a394-3a556d013935   --- On Thu, 11/6/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 To: "Sarai" Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:12 AM Sorry, typo: Second sentence should read The sub-editor decided it was about support to abolish Article 370...¹ I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and its roots . The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it was about Yasin Malik. Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about yes, we can (change).¹ Oh to be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. ------ Forwarded Message From: ashish zutshi Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 To: Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 Dear Ms. Jabbar, You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik. I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for writing our ( Kashmiri Migrants) side of the story. Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik on 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. Thanks Ashish Zutshi What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with trends on MSN Lifestyle Try it! ------ End of Forwarded Message _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 14:29:05 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 14:29:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811060059i540b5e5ftfc3833e24f495fc5@mail.gmail.com> Hello Sonia, Don't you consider it unethical to forward someones offline mail in a public group ? I am not arguing on merits of your article , but the ethics of cross mailing and privacy in offline conversations. Regards Pawan Durani On 11/6/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and > its roots . The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, > and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it > was about Yasin Malik. > > Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about Œyes, we can (change).¹ Oh to > be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed > belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism > rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: ashish zutshi > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 > To: > Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 > > > Dear Ms. Jabbar, > > You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik. > I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. > > I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for writing our ( Kashmiri > Migrants) side of the story. > > Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. > > Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik > on > 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. > > Thanks > Ashish Zutshi > > > > > > What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with > trends on MSN Lifestyle Try it! > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 15:15:28 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:15:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! In-Reply-To: <5c5369880811052340m7b9ab0e1r792dc955cba7b74f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: But if the film is to be authentic she WILL be covered from top to toe in a black burqa, eyes peering out of thick spectacles. What matter whether it's Bips or Sanjay Dutt playing AA? > From: Sanjay Kak > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:10:13 +0530 > To: Sarai Reader List > Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! > > For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for > the truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. Bollywood's A list is > all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. And they are giving it their best: > Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will play Islamist Asiya Andrabi. Please > read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising > Kashmir. http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&i > d=8133 "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" Rising Kashmir News Srinagar, Nov > 4: Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have > pro-Kashmir sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that > the glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi > in his film 'Lamha'. Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his > film is entirely pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of > Kashmiri people. "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony > which Kashmiri people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of > Kashmiri people I cannot do justice with my film," he said. Spewing his anger > against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary forces and police in > Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I will show how army, > CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on innocent Kashmiris." He > claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha > Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations of Kashmiri > people. "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. > She she is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. He said Lamha > has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about Kashmir as the film > will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience around the world. "The two > years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood films about > Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why I want to shoot > this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," he added. He > revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian troopers > whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding photos of > their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris being harassed > by troops asking them to prove their identity and other painful incidents > which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are dialogues in the film > where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or not it makes breaking news > for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who have not seen their husbands > since 17 years are not newsworthy." Dholakia said that at the end of the day, > a question will be asked to the audience as to who should be held accountable > for the ongoing tyranny in Kashmir. "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri > girls are picked up and raped, no one does anything about it. Indians have > been made to believe that a Kashmiri is a militant which is absolutely false, > incorrect and ridiculous," he said. Dholakia said he wants to convey that > Kashmiris are most sensitive, emotional and fine human beings who have been > cheated year after year by various > governments. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 15:17:36 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:17:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880811052340m7b9ab0e1r792dc955cba7b74f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811060147n9e03253g6dc81a592ccae1a5@mail.gmail.com> lol.... On 11/6/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > But if the film is to be authentic she WILL be covered from top to toe in a > black burqa, eyes peering out of thick spectacles. What matter whether > it's > Bips or Sanjay Dutt playing AA? > > > > From: Sanjay Kak > > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:10:13 +0530 > > To: Sarai Reader List > > Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! > > > > For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for > > the > truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. > Bollywood's A list is > > all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. > And they are giving it their best: > > Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will > play Islamist Asiya Andrabi. > Please > > read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising > > Kashmir. > http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&i > > d=8133 > > "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" > > Rising Kashmir News > Srinagar, Nov > > 4: > > Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have > > pro-Kashmir > sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that > > the > glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi > > in > his film 'Lamha'. > Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his > > film is entirely > pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of > > Kashmiri people. > "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony > > which Kashmiri > people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of > > Kashmiri people > I cannot do justice with my film," he said. > Spewing his anger > > against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary > forces and police in > > Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I > will show how army, > > CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on > innocent Kashmiris." > He > > claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and > Bipasha > > Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations of > Kashmiri > > people. > "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. > > She she > is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. > He said Lamha > > has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about > Kashmir as the film > > will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience > around the world. > "The two > > years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood > films about > > Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why I > want to shoot > > this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," > he added. > He > > revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian > troopers > > whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding > photos of > > their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris > being harassed > > by troops asking them to prove their identity and other > painful incidents > > which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are > dialogues in the film > > where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or > not it makes breaking news > > for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who > have not seen their husbands > > since 17 years are not newsworthy." > Dholakia said that at the end of the day, > > a question will be asked to the > audience as to who should be held accountable > > for the ongoing tyranny in > Kashmir. > "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri > > girls are picked up and raped, no one > does anything about it. Indians have > > been made to believe that a Kashmiri is > a militant which is absolutely false, > > incorrect and ridiculous," he said. > Dholakia said he wants to convey that > > Kashmiris are most sensitive, > emotional and fine human beings who have been > > cheated year after year by > various > > governments. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 15:17:33 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:17:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811060059i540b5e5ftfc3833e24f495fc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No I don’t actually. Especially since this man whom I don’t know has attempted to bribe me with what he imagines is a ‘reasonable amount’. From: Pawan Durani Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 14:29:05 +0530 To: "S. Jabbar" Cc: Sarai Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 Hello Sonia, Don't you consider it unethical to forward someones offline mail in a public group ? I am not arguing on merits of your article , but the ethics of cross mailing and privacy in offline conversations. Regards Pawan Durani On 11/6/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and > its roots . The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, > and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it > was about Yasin Malik. > > Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about Œyes, we can (change).¹ Oh to > be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed > belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism > rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: ashish zutshi > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 > To: > Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 > > > Dear Ms. Jabbar, > > You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik. > I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. > > I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for writing our ( Kashmiri > Migrants) side of the story. > > Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. > > Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik on > 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. > > Thanks > Ashish Zutshi > > > > > > What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with > trends on MSN Lifestyle Try it! > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 15:42:48 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 02:12:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Obama on Gandhi and other things - The "OUTLOOK" interview Message-ID: <877172.22786.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Extract:   """" 'Throughout my life, I have always looked to Mahatma Gandhi as an inspiration, because he embodies the kind of transformational change that can be made when ordinary people come together to do extraordinary things""""     "OUTLOOK" Magazine Jul 21, 2008 exclusive interview ASHISH KUMAR SEN   Q: In what ways would President Barack Obama be different from President John McCain on issues of foreign policy? A: I will end a war in Iraq that I opposed from the beginning. I will talk to all nations—friend and foe—because the Bush administration policy of not talking to leaders we don't like has not worked. I will finish the fight in Afghanistan, and refocus our approach on Pakistan. I am the only candidate who expressed early and regular concern about putting all of our eggs in the Musharraf basket and who has made it clear that we must do more to destroy Al Qaeda's sanctuary along the Afghan-Pakistan border. I will pursue a foreign policy in which America leads by example and principle, one in which we reject torture without equivocation and respect basic human rights and civil liberties. More fundamentally, the world will see a new face of America the day that I am elected, and I will bring a new kind of experience to the Oval Office.My understanding of global challenges has not just been shaped in the corridors of power; it has been shaped by the wider world. My father crossed an ocean to seek the dream of America. As a boy, I lived for several years in Indonesia. As a young man, I worked as a community organiser in the forgotten corners of America. So whether I am at an international summit or travelling the world, I will speak not just as someone who mastered my brief, but also as someone who has a grandmother who lives in a village in Africa without running water and indoor plumbing. I will be a president who works to strengthen our relations not just with world leaders, but with the world's people.     That is reflected both in my approach to leadership, and in my policies, which include doubling American foreign assistance to $50 billion, making the UN's goal—which is America's as well—of halving extreme poverty by 2015. My foreign policy will seek to enhance freedom not by top-down ideological mandate, but by expanding the rule of law, transparent democratic institutions, bottom-up economic growth, education, and access to public health and technology. Q: You talk of change. What is the sort of change that you hope to bring about in Washington? A: The change I will bring to Washington is an extraordinary ground-up involvement by the American people. My campaign has energised Americans who have never before been involved in the political process. Their energy and the mandate for change that they embody will help us break out of the stalemate that has gripped our public policy. For far too long, Washington has been trapped in the same conventional thinking and the same partisan battles among the same actors. It is time to move past our divisions, and rally all Americans—Democrats, Independents and Republicans—around a common purpose. It is this energy of the American people that will help us to push back against the special interests that have blocked progress, and reduce the influence of Washington lobbyists. It is the American people who will help us move beyond a view of national security that values tough talk over sound judgement, a mindset that led us into a war in Iraq that I opposed from the beginning. With the American people's engagement and commitment to change, we can finally make progress on the challenges that we face year after year after year—healthcare we can't afford; an energy policy that we cannot sustain; and an America that is less safe and less respected in the world. We can turn the page to a new era of American leadership and prosperity. In terms of foreign policy, the change I will bring to Washington is experience of a different, critical sort. If I go to a poor country and speak about both the US obligation to work with poor countries to relieve suffering, and also the responsibility of poor countries to clear up corruption and increase transparency and rule of law and build their civil service, I do so with the credibility of someone with a grandmother who lives in an impoverished village in Africa. In the same way, if I call a summit of Muslim world leaders, I think that I can speak credibly to them about the fact that I respect their culture, that I understand their religion, that I have lived in a Muslim country, and as a consequence I know it is possible to reconcile Islam with modernity and respect for human rights and a rejection of violence. As I have said before, that doesn't mean that Muslim leaders will automatically act on the American agenda if it's contrary to what they perceive to be their self-interests.But at least there's an added element of trust. Q: Your critics say that in a match-up between Senator John McCain and you, he has the upper hand on foreign policy and national security experience. Do you believe you have suitable expertise on these two issues to match Senator McCain in November? A: I will bring a record of sound and better judgement on the key national security challenges that America has faced in recent years, and a vision for the future that is far different than Senator McCain's. I opposed the war in Iraq from the beginning and will end it as president; Senator McCain has been one of the staunchest supporters of the war, and wants to keep US troops in Iraq indefinitely. I have called for tough and direct diplomacy with US adversaries like Iran; Senator McCain wants to continue the failed Bush policy of not talking to our adversaries.     I have called for a change in our Pakistan policy, so that we emphasise support for democracy and social and economic development, not only counter-terrorism; Senator McCain supported a policy of unconditional support for President Musharraf that did not work. We must align ourselves with Pakistan and its people, not just one individual. I will offer the American people a clear contrast with John McCain and a clean break from the foreign policy failures of the Bush-Cheney years. Q: The US and Indian governments are struggling to push through a civilian nuclear agreement. You had some concerns about this deal when it was debated in Congress. If the deal is not sealed by the end of the Bush administration, will an Obama administration in 2009 be willing to reopen it or do you think it should be scrapped? A: I voted for the US-India nuclear agreement because India is a strong democracy and a natural strategic partner for the US in the 21st century. As you point out, I had some concerns about the non-proliferation aspects of the original agreement when it was debated in Congress. But I also concluded that this agreement would enhance our partnership and deepen our cooperation. Once fully implemented, the nuclear deal would also aid in the important effort to combat global warming by allowing India to meet its growing electricity demands with nuclear energy rather than burning coal. A final judgement on the deal negotiated by the Indian and US governments in July 2007 must await the iaea's approval of a safeguards agreement with India and changes to be agreed (upon) by the Nuclear Suppliers Group. At that point, the US Congress will decide whether to approve the agreement. I continue to hope this process can be concluded before the end of the year. As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, I will continue to make sure that our respective strategic, non-proliferation, and energy and environment interests are all advanced by the ultimate deal. Q: If you have concerns about the nuclear deal, what changes would you like to see? A: The existing agreement effectively balanced a range of important issues—from our strategic relationship with India to our non-proliferation concerns to India's energy needs.I am therefore reluctant to seek changes. Q: Many in the Indian-American community are firm Clinton supporters because they see President Bill Clinton as the man who engaged India with his historic visit. In what ways will you be a better president for US-India relations? A: My campaign has enjoyed strong and deep support from the very beginning from the Indian-American community, including support from many leading Indian-Americans who served in the Clinton administration. That community support is deepening at every stage of our effort.     Both President Clinton and President Bush did many important things to strengthen the US-India relationship. I will work energetically to build on the work of the last two US administrations and move forward to forge an even closer strategic partnership between our two countries. Q: In what areas would you like to see US-India relations grow? Across-the-board would be the short answer. But let me elaborate with a few examples. I believe that the US and India must work together to combat the common threats of the 21st century.     We are both victims of terrorist attacks on our soil, and our counter-terrorism partnership is based on a shared interest in defeating the forces of extremism. Our common strategic interests call for strengthening US-India military cooperation. We share an interest in democracy and the rule of law, and can work to promote democracy and strengthen legal institutions in South Asia and beyond. We share an interest in combating global climate change, and the US and India can both do more to lead the world in securing a cleaner and more sustainable energy future. I intend to increase energy cooperation with India so we can together address the climate crisis that threatens our planet. We share an interest in combating the spread of disease, including HIV/AIDS. And we share an interest in combating global poverty, which is why I will seek the UN's goal of halving extreme poverty by 2015. We cannot allow the world's neediest to be left behind.     India has enormous potential to contribute to a shared, sustained global economic growth. Our agenda should also include strengthening our economic relationship on a mutually beneficial basis. I would also like to see agriculture given a higher priority in our relations, as India pursues its goal of a 'Second Green Revolution'. I would like to see a ramp-up in higher education collaboration in fields like science, public health and information technology. Q: Do you see closer US-India ties as a means to counterbalance the rise of China? A: The United States should seek to strengthen its bilateral relationship with India on its own merits, because of our many shared interests and our shared democratic values. The deeper relationship that I will seek is not about working against China or any other country—it is about addressing our common interests and common challenges for the 21st century. Q: President Clinton was criticised for visiting India very late in his presidency—when he was a lame duck president. Do you intend to visit India if you are elected president and how soon would you like to make this trip? A: President Clinton's visit to India was the first by a US president in 22 years. President Bush rightly followed suit and travelled to India. New Delhi is now a part of an American president's overseas travel while in office, just as it is to other capitals of our key allies and friends around the world.As president, I will continue this newly established tradition. Q: What is your stand on the dispute between India and Pakistan over Kashmir? Do you want the US to play a more active role in resolving this situation? A: I believe the US should encourage the existing and ongoing dialogue between India and Pakistan aimed at resolving the dispute over Kashmir. The US should be a strong supporter of this process, one that will, if ultimately successful, have enormous benefits for both India and Pakistan, and the region as a whole. Q: India has been a major beneficiary of outsourcing of jobs by US firms. You have talked about providing incentives to firms that keep jobs in the US. Do you believe the practice of outsourcing should be stopped altogether? A: Revolutions in communications and technology have sent jobs wherever there's an internet connection, and have forced workers in Chicago and Boston to compete for those jobs with workers in Bangalore and Beijing. We live in a more competitive world, and that is a fact that cannot be reversed. We know that we cannot and should not put up walls around our economy.  But we must find a way to make globalisation and trade work for American workers. The American worker needs to be supported and given the tools needed to compete in the global economy. So I would pursue common-sense measures such as offering tax incentives to companies that create jobs in the US, undertaking policies such as supporting growth sectors like renewable energy and building up our infrastructure that will lead to creation of well-paying jobs and, most importantly, investing in education and job retraining programmes. The US has faced fundamental economic challenges before and it has met them by expanding opportunity outward, growing its middle class, and investing in the education and well-being of our workers. Q: Do you have any Indian influences in your life? A: My mother instilled in me from a very young age an interest in other cultures and exposure to their traditions, including Indian culture and traditions. As an anthropologist, she later did rural development work in India. In my own life, I am fortunate to have close Indian-American friends and I am proud to have the long-standing support of so many Indian-Americans in all aspects of my campaign. Throughout my life, I have always looked to Mahatma Gandhi as an inspiration, because he embodies the kind of transformational change that can be made when ordinary people come together to do extraordinary things. That is why his portrait hangs in my Senate office: to remind me that real results will come not just from Washington—they will come from the people. Q: Recently your campaign revealed that as a 19-year-old you travelled to Karachi and Hyderabad in Pakistan. Could you share some of these experiences with us? A: I travelled to Pakistan for about three weeks to visit a friend from college. What my experience taught me is that among the most important aspects of our foreign policy is not simply our relations with the rulers of countries, but also our appreciation and understanding of the challenges, the hardships, the struggles and the aspirations of ordinary people.   http://www.outlookindia.com/fullprint.asp?choice=1&fodname=20080721&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1     From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 17:06:56 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:06:56 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 42, Hypocracy at its best with double standards for all to see.! References: Message-ID: <914158.4364.qm@web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com> As I went thru the posts in this edition, the thoughts that came to my mind is wha, what sort of hypocrats we are in India and how we change our stands to suit the occassion of our faith, region and language, as seen by posts in the list.   Here we have a dholakia, who made a film about the riots in Gujarath, about the parsi boy missing and about the parents, and made enough money along with sycophancy to be loyal to oldest party during the elction time of that state. But forgot totally about the riots in 1984 when the shawls were of different colour at that time when over 4000 innocents were killed merciless hate.? And those who led from the front to prove their loyalty to the dynasty were rewarded with posts of ministers and MPs in power.?   From 1947 so many riots have taken place, every time, rioters are rewarded with tickets to be MLAs and MPs. But for  once, a Chief minister of a state acts without fear or favour, orders to shoot rioters irrespective of their faith, as figures show the death counts reflect, such a CM is shown as "communal" progeom co-ordinator, to nominate him as the genocide king, nero etc.? If any citizen talks about the ills in society, if it happens to be a hindu and he talks of ills in society, he is communal.! If any one ridicules, hurts the feelings of all others, be abusive about culture and traditions, he has to be non hindu, he is secular..? Ofcourse some with dubious ids do join them for their rozi roti and of being noticed, they are more secular than secular citizens. ?   About Kashmir, the simple solution is throw out Congress from every where and its sycophants from the power , you will have peaceful nation, without divisive politics.A Gulam Nabi Azad, who had no business to "give" land to yathris, which was available all these years, gave land to cook favours in rest of India to gain hindu votes, but in the process created havoc in the Kashmir state. For the first time by back door adjustments with PDP, Congress came to power and this is what is its act of treason to the nation. As to military presence in kashmir, let the kashmiris decide once for all, as to do they want good governance or the bullets which they get from their separatists, in the process also cross fire from defence forces. No defence officer who has to be always on duty at kashmir would like to be in civil duties as in Kashmir, as basically it is law and order ossue which has to be dealt by the police and CRPF. This use of military in civil areas is positively wrong as this leads to poariation of defence forces also, but Congress wants exactly this.The very purpose of division of polity ably supported by few blacksheep in journalism is that, the minority, peace loving Sonia can rule the nation as of now, she is proxy governor, with lame ducks in cabinet, next will be autocratic dicatator  is the calculation of this lady, but Free India has time and again shown that ballots are stronger than bullets,Indira was shown her place in 1977, but after the show when able leadership did not emerge, again the nation gave her another chance ..   Unfortunate issue is role of media and the visual media and its anchors who seem to have no liking for change, as they seem to hate all other political parties, in particular BJP. Let the polity decide as to who has to govern them, why this haste by few journalists of visual media to pamper and promote this dynastic rule.? If advani or BJP leadership is not suitable let the voters decide that, why should be the anchors deciding the role of other political parties.?.Recent times have shown the governance in all states in the same bad light, but these anchors were making dance and song item numbers only for NDA ruled states.? When 400 innocents were killed in 1984, the vatican had no role to advise, now for few acts of vandalism and pope has a big say ? Not that violence is not to be condemned, but why this selective amnesia. ? In Goa, the son of a minister rapes a german minor girl, he happens to be christian just as the vistim, and supported by Congress, this incident does not cause any unease to all human rights activists, womens rights body etc. ? Shamelss dual standards while talking about one segment of society and when it is the time for eceiving the bricks, faith comes in between.? ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 3:15:54 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 42 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. The Truth about Kashmir! (Sanjay Kak)   2. Re: The Truth about Kashmir! (Wali Arifi)   3. Re: FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated    4th Nov       08 (Kshmendra Kaul)   4. Re: FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated    4th Nov       08 (Pawan Durani)   5. Re: The Truth about Kashmir! (S. Jabbar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:10:13 +0530 From: "Sanjay Kak" Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! To: "Sarai Reader List" Message-ID:     <5c5369880811052340m7b9ab0e1r792dc955cba7b74f at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for the truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. Bollywood's A list is all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. And they are giving it their best: Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will play Islamist Asiya Andrabi. Please read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising Kashmir. http://www.risingkashmir..com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8133 "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" Rising Kashmir News Srinagar, Nov 4: Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have pro-Kashmir sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that the glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi in his film 'Lamha'. Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his film is entirely pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of Kashmiri people. "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony which Kashmiri people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of Kashmiri people I cannot do justice with my film," he said. Spewing his anger against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary forces and police in Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I will show how army, CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on innocent Kashmiris." He claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations of Kashmiri people. "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. She she is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. He said Lamha has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about Kashmir as the film will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience around the world. "The two years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood films about Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why I want to shoot this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," he added. He revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian troopers whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding photos of their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris being harassed by troops asking them to prove their identity and other painful incidents which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are dialogues in the film where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or not it makes breaking news for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who have not seen their husbands since 17 years are not newsworthy." Dholakia said that at the end of the day, a question will be asked to the audience as to who should be held accountable for the ongoing tyranny in Kashmir. "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri girls are picked up and raped, no one does anything about it. Indians have been made to believe that a Kashmiri is a militant which is absolutely false, incorrect and ridiculous," he said. Dholakia said he wants to convey that Kashmiris are most sensitive, emotional and fine human beings who have been cheated year after year by various governments. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:58:18 +0530 From: "Wali Arifi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <4fcaee300811060028m30d6c084o786f6d1c7d687757 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Here is some more to add to this post: http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20081105/914/ten-lamha-will-depict-kashmir-s-pain-say.html 'Lamha' will depict Kashmir's pain, says director Dholakia Wed, Nov 5 07:29 PM Srinagar, Nov 5 (IANS) Bollywood filmmaker Rahul Dholakia, Wednesday said that his forthcoming movie 'Lamha' would depict the pain and suffering of Kashmir even though it was essentially a love story. 'I will be hated outside after the release of 'Lamha'. It will depict Kashmir's pain and suffering as I have seen during the two years of research for my film," Dholakia told reporters here. He said that his movie, which stars Sanjay Dutt, Bipasha Basu and Anupam Kher, would be a 'pro-Kashmir film'. The director added that he fully understood the humiliation and the pain the locals suffered when non-resident troopers asked them for identity proof. "I have met a senior separatist leader and many people here and I have assured them that my film will portray Kashmir in its true perspective. "I have been to a village called Dardpora where hundreds of widows still wait with photographs of their husbands and sons to return home. All that will be there in my film," Dholakia said. The shooting of Dholakia's film had run into rough weather here. Kashmiri fruit traders last week intervened to stop the shooting at the fruit market as they feared the movie might portray them in bad light. On Monday, students of a college in south Kashmir's Anantnag district took exception to some of the portions being shot inside the campus premises and the principal then asked the film crew to withdraw. On Wednesday too, the film's shoot was interrupted by a few people while they were filming in uptown Maharaja Bazaar area. Dholakia has earlier made the critically acclaimed film 'Parzania' about a boy who went missing in the 2002 Gujarat communal violence. http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/international/2008/October/international_October2173.xml§ion=international&col = Kashmiri Fruit Traders Stop Movie Shoot (IANS) 31 October 2008 SRINAGAR - Kashmiri fruit traders on Thursday intervened to stop the shooting of director Rahul Dholakia's movie 'Lamha' in the states' summer capital Srinagar fearing the film might portray them in a bad light. "I was informed by my colleagues in the Parimpora fruit market that a film unit had set up a shoot there today," Bashir Ahmad Bashir, the president of the fruit market in Srinagar, told IANS. "They were shooting some actor wearing a 'pheren' (traditional woollen garment) wielding a gun during the shooting. "I met the director, Dholakia, and asked him whether he had taken permission from the local authorities and also from our association to shoot his film inside the fruit market. "After he failed to show us any permission, we politely told him to wind up the shoot and they readily agreed to do so. We also requested them to delete the parts of the film they had shot inside the fruit market today." He also said their intervention had become necessary as the local traders feared anything negative shown in a film about Kashmiri fruit traders would affect the entire industry adversely. Dholakia had earlier made the critically acclaimed film 'Parzania' about a boy who went missing in the 2002 Gujarat communal violence. When IANS contacted him about Thursday's incident, Dholakia said: "We had sought permission from some shopkeepers in the fruit market for the shoot who perhaps had not informed the office bearers of the fruit traders association and that is why the hiccup occurred today." *-  IANS* "Mine is a positive film about Kashmir and we are going ahead with the shoot. These hiccups are part of filmmaking and I fully understand the situation in Kashmir." The director also said 'Lamha' was a love story. The film stars Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu. "It is a commercial movie and there are no political overtones to it. Yes, it talks of love in today's Kashmir," Dholakia told IANS here. When asked about the pheren-wearing, weapon-wielding actor being part of the shoot at the local fruit market, the director said: "He was a body guard and not part of the actors in the film." Fruit traders in the valley had suffered huge losses earlier this year as the highway carrying their produce was blocked for days due to protests in Jammu against cancellation of land for the Amarnath shrine board. - Message: 4 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 14:29:05 +0530 From: "Pawan Durani" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT     dated    4th Nov 08 To: "S. Jabbar" Cc: Sarai Message-ID:     <6b79f1a70811060059i540b5e5ftfc3833e24f495fc5 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Hello Sonia, Don't you consider it unethical to forward someones offline mail in a public group ? I am not arguing on merits of your article , but the ethics of cross mailing and privacy in offline conversations. Regards Pawan Durani On 11/6/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and > its roots .  The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, > and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it > was about Yasin Malik. > > Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about Œyes, we can (change).¹  Oh to > be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed > belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism > rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: ashish zutshi > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 > To: > Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 > > > Dear Ms. Jabbar, > > You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik.. > I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. > > I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for  writing  our ( Kashmiri > Migrants) side of the story. > > Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. > > Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik > on > 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. > > Thanks > Ashish Zutshi > > > > > > What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with > trends on MSN Lifestyle  Try it! > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:15:28 +0530 From: "S. Jabbar" Subject: Re: [ReaderDEFANGED.11> --------------------------------------- On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for > the > truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. > Bollywood's A list is all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. > And they are giving it their best: Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will > play Islamist Asiya Andrabi.. > Please read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising Kashmir. > http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8133 > > "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" > > Rising Kashmir News > Srinagar, Nov 4: > > Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have pro-Kashmir > sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that the > glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi in > his film 'Lamha'. > Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his film is entirely > pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of Kashmiri people. > "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony which Kashmiri > people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of Kashmiri > people > I cannot do justice with my film," he said. > Spewing his anger against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary > forces and police in Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I > will show how army, CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on > innocent Kashmiris." > He claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and > Bipasha Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations > of > Kashmiri people. > "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. She she > is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. > He said Lamha has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about > Kashmir as the film will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience > around the world. > "The two years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood > films about Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why > I > want to shoot this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," > he added. > He revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian > troopers whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding > photos of their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris > being harassed by troops asking them to prove their identity and other > painful incidents which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are > dialogues in the film where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or > not it makes breaking news for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who > have not seen their husbands since 17 years are not newsworthy." > Dholakia said that at the end of the day, a question will be asked to the > audience as to who should be held accountable for the ongoing tyranny in > Kashmir. > "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri girls are picked up and raped, no > one > does anything about it. Indians have been made to believe that a Kashmiri > is > a militant which is absolutely false, incorrect and ridiculous," he said. > Dholakia said he wants to convey that Kashmiris are most sensitive, > emotional and fine human beings who have been cheated year after year by > various governments. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:33:25 -0800 (PST) From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT     dated    4th Nov 08 To: Sarai Message-ID: <530660.58309.qm at web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" For those interested in reading it, here is the subject piece:   HINDUSTAN TIMES Sonia Jabbar November 04, 2008   "Not special, but equal"   A couple of weeks ago I stood by a bed in the ICU of a Srinagar hospital. Sixteen-year-old Zeeshan Puruzgar’s chest heaved like bellows.  He had been shot through the liver the day before, at point blank range, by the Central Reserve Police Force during a demonstration. A few hours later I visited 14-year-old Waseem Ahmad Wani at another hospital.  Half his face was swathed in bandages where the tear gas shell had hit him directly, smashing his mandible. “We fire warning shots and they still keep coming,” a senior police officer confessed later. “We’ve tried everything: tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, but nothing stops them."   Is the announcement of elections by the Centre a clumsy attempt to calm this rage? This was done by steam-rolling the advice of all mainstream political parties which strongly felt a hiatus was necessary for a population traumatised by the events of this summer. While no one denies the desirability of a stable, elected government, the violence witnessed in Kashmir between June and October should have made policy makers pause and reflect. If elections are the answer, why is it that after 12 years of uninterrupted ‘normalcy’ Kashmir erupted in the way that it did, and why have popular governments been unable to address Kashmiri anger and alienation?   Dodging brickbats and tear gas shells in downtown Srinagar near the Jamia Masjid, I attempted to understand what is fuelling this rage long after the Amarnath fracas was over. Sheltering from the police in the narrow lanes I discovered that each of the angry young boys, aged 11 to 17, went to school regularly, and the young men in their 20s were either undergraduates or studying for their MBAs, or shop owners. One even worked for a prestigious non-governmental organisation. This was hardly the expected profile of a stone-pelting mob. In Kashmir this represents a broader phenomenon that is yet to be understood.   According to the 2001 Census, of the Valley’s 5.4 million population, 71 per cent is under the age of 35 years; and of this 3.8 million people, 74 per cent are educated. In other words, the overwhelming majority of the population either cannot remember or has never experienced the time before war. It is the educated youth who rightly question why it is that notwithstanding prime ministerial promises of insaniyat or ‘zero tolerance towards human rights violations’, the highest authority of democratic India could not prevent the 2007 Ganderbal fake encounter, or that during the 2008 Amarnath agitation, how is it that only three people were killed in police firing in Jammu, despite rampaging mobs lynching policemen, while 57 Kashmiris were shot dead for stone-pelting during the same period?   Every Kashmiri household has a story which ranges from enforced disappearances, rape and torture to more quotidian humiliations, like security forces ransacking your home in the middle of the night, a jawan cross-examining a judge at a checkpoint, a young boy being interrogated and slapped about on mere suspicion, and another being asked to prove his identity in his own neighbourhood by a uniformed outsider. For all India’s talk of democracy, in practice the Kashmiri youth observes daily the State’s intolerance of dissent. While Yasin Malik has been jailed under the draconian Public Safety Act for a peaceful demonstration against elections, Sajjad Lone — who had defied the ISI and supported the elections in 2002 — has found his Pakistani wife and two infant children repeatedly being denied entry into India.   The response to the collective memory of injustice cannot be the simulacrum of democracy. In the 12 years since the 1996 elections, levels of violence may have reduced, but that reduction is meaningless to the young man or woman who perceives State violence as arbitrary and justice as non-existent. Successive state governments, unable to attract investment and industry, have done little but dispense patronage in the form of government jobs to a select few. Kashmiris have missed out on the great Indian middleclass dream: J&K’s GDP is half of the national average and its per capita income of Rs 19,535 (2006-07) is Rs 10,000 less than the rest of India. An estimated 400,000 youth are unemployed, half of whom are college graduates who find themselves marginalised, unable to marry and provide for their families. It is this large population — angry and isolated — that runs the risk of being drawn into a new cycle of militancy.   What is the way out?  Discussions with the young stone-pelters yielded simple solutions. Each, without hesitation, said he wanted azadi, but when pressed to define it more precisely the overwhelming majority defined azadi to mean a demilitarised Kashmir. “You can’t expect a person to walk normally if his foot has a thorn lodged in it,” said the MBA student. “We want peace, but are humiliated daily by the security forces. The Centre says militancy is down, so why can’t troops go home? You people think you’ve given us Article 370 and that we should be thrilled, but we don’t need a special relationship, we want to be treated as equal citizens who can simply live and work in peace and dignity.”   Sonia Jabbar is an independent journalist   http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=621b6ad1-5b06-458b-a394-3a556d013935   --- On Thu, 11/6/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 To: "Sarai" Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:12 AM Sorry, typo: Second sentence should read The sub-editor decided it was about support to abolish Article 370...¹ I thought I wrote an edit piece about alienation among Kashmiri youth and its roots .  The sub-editor decided it was about support for Article 370, and this gentleman, whom I don¹t have the pleasure of knowing, believes it was about Yasin Malik. Hmm... Wasn¹t someone saying something about yes, we can (change).¹  Oh to be in America today where one can speak of hope and justice with renewed belief instead of this sad, jaded place where the worst kind of cynicism rules, where we are completely inured to any one else¹s pain but our own. ------ Forwarded Message From: ashish zutshi Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:45:19 +0000 To: Subject: Attn: Ms Jabbar --Your editorial in HT dated 4th Nov 08 Dear Ms. Jabbar, You have your own compulsions to support Yasin malik. I am sure you are being paid to write such kind of stuff. I promise to pay you a reasonable amount for  writing  our ( Kashmiri Migrants) side of the story. Yasin malik has killed air force personnel & many kashmiri pandits. Do you want Govt of India to formally confer bravery award to Yasin malik on 26/1/2009,( Republic day) along with other kids. Thanks Ashish Zutshi What's on the ramp today could be on the streets tomorrow. Keep up with trends on MSN Lifestyle  Try it! ------ End of Forwarded Message _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   ------------------------------ -list] The Truth about Kashmir! To: Sanjay Kak ,    Sarai Message-ID: But if the film is to be authentic she WILL be covered from top to toe in a black burqa, eyes peering out of thick spectacles.  What matter whether it's Bips or Sanjay Dutt playing AA? > From: Sanjay Kak > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:10:13 +0530 > To: Sarai Reader List > Subject: [Reader-list] The Truth about Kashmir! > > For those on the Reader-list who have been waiting with bated breath for > the truth about Kashmir, the moment may well be near. Bollywood's A list is > all set to bring out the unvarnished truth. And they are giving it their best: > Screen saver favourite Bipasha Basu will play Islamist Asiya Andrabi. Please > read this story from the Srinagar based daily Rising > Kashmir. http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&i > d=8133 "Bipasha to play Asiya in Lamha" Rising Kashmir News Srinagar, Nov > 4: Claiming that Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha Basu have > pro-Kashmir sentiments, Bollywood Director Rahul Dholakia Wednesday said that > the glamorous Bipasha will play Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson Asiya Andrabi > in his film 'Lamha'. Addressing media persons here, Dholakia said that his > film is entirely pro-Kashmir and it will depict the real aspirations of > Kashmiri people. "This is a love story woven with boundless void of agony > which Kashmiri people are facing for the past 61 years. Without the help of > Kashmiri people I cannot do justice with my film," he said. Spewing his anger > against the unbridled powers of troops, paramilitary forces and police in > Kashmir, Dholakia said: "I may be hated in India but I will show how army, > CRPF and police are unleashing reign of terror on innocent Kashmiris." He > claimed that leading artists of the film Sanjay Dutt, Kunal Kapoor and Bipasha > Basu are pro-Kashmir who are keen to reflect the real aspirations of Kashmiri > people. "Bipasha Basu will play the role of Dukhtaran-e-Millat chairperson. > She she is entirely pro-Kashmiri in the film," Dholakia said. He said Lamha > has a potential to clear all pre-conceived notions about Kashmir as the film > will realistically portray Kashmir to the audience around the world. "The two > years of my research about Kashmir suggest that all the Bollywood films about > Kashmir are fakes. I want to break this tradition. That is why I want to shoot > this film here with stars like Sanjay Dutt and Bipasha Basu," he added. He > revealed some scenes in his film wherein half-widows ask the Indian troopers > whereabouts of their husbands. "I have scenes like women holding photos of > their husbands who are missing since 17 years, common Kashmiris being harassed > by troops asking them to prove their identity and other painful incidents > which happen here everyday," Dholakia said. "There are dialogues in the film > where people say that if Aishwarya Rai sees moon or not it makes breaking news > for Indian media but in Kashmir the women who have not seen their husbands > since 17 years are not newsworthy." Dholakia said that at the end of the day, > a question will be asked to the audience as to who should be held accountable > for the ongoing tyranny in Kashmir. "When in a crackdown innocent Kashmiri > girls are picked up and raped, no one does anything about it. Indians have > been made to believe that a Kashmiri is a militant which is absolutely false, > incorrect and ridiculous," he said. Dholakia said he wants to convey that > Kashmiris are most sensitive, emotional and fine human beings who have been > cheated year after year by various > governments.. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 42 ******************************************* Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From hanybabu at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 18:14:54 2008 From: hanybabu at gmail.com (hany babu) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 18:14:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University Message-ID: <5f4dddc70811060444r57bb0ec4h36c9240946f4889b@mail.gmail.com> *Press Note* *University Community, Delhi University* *6th November 2008* *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* Dear media persons and journalists, * * We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) in Delhi University, in which members of the press community were also made victims. The University Community, an independent group of students and teachers of Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism and Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. 22 Arts Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain College, University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one of the ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we realised that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – ABVP goondas were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur Sharma (of ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of this University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had taken due permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons who were covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, who were speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one of the media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and the Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting could not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who did the University administration side with? ABVP. It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on continuing the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the meeting continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the presence of a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their permission, they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to break the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan Murdabad, Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in particular was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the meeting from concluding successfully. We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort of ABVP *to snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. Last year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons who once attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right to hold meetings and discussions. During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the threat and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the secular and democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, and the politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and fear. If we remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is left to us in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a meeting in the University? Who does the University administration and Delhi Police support in the fight against fascism? *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of today's events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the University, at 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR against ABVP members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh Ratan, Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and goondaism and action against the people found guilty. * *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on similar issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * University Community *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, universitycommun... @gmail.com* -- MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... @gmail.com Phone:+91-9811209345 From the.solipsist at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 18:36:18 2008 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 18:36:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jharkhand tribals celebrate Obama's victory Message-ID: <4785f1e20811060506q5824ffd5p12e08caa61fa8a84@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, An offbeat story that almost looks like a fake planted in IANS. If one chooses to dig deeper, of course, one can come up with issues such as casteism (and anti-tribal-ism, etc.) as racial discrimination, going back especially to the debates surrounding the Durban conference (see http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/09/25/stories/13250541.htm), etc., but is that really the point of this story? Regards, Pranesh -- http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20081106/818/tnl-jharkhand-tribals-celebrate-obama-s.html?printer=1 Jharkhand tribals celebrate Obama's victory Indo Asian News Service Thu, Nov 6 12:33 PM Ranchi, Nov 6 (IANS) Hundreds of Jharkhand tribals Thursday celebrated the victory of Barack Obama in the US presidential election by beating drums and singing songs. The tribals, who gathered near Mahatma Gandhi's statue located close to Morabadi ground here, shouted slogans like 'This is a red letter day in the history of world'. 'Black people have always faced challenges in the world. We believe that the racial discrimination will end after Obama's election as US president,' said Bahura Ekka, a tribal leader. He said: 'Gandhiji's soul must be feeling happy after Obama was elected president of the US. We chose to celebrate the victory in front of the statue of Gandhiji who was first to start fight against racial discrimination in South Africa.' From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Nov 6 19:10:59 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:10:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalon & Terror: Re-configuring PoliticalMapDuringEmergency In-Reply-To: <004b01c93fb6$265b1170$0201a8c0@MRAY> References: <579337.60882.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <004b01c93fb6$265b1170$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <445DA31B-4C56-4E51-9298-561B4446F646@sarai.net> Dear M. Ray, This is in response to your previous mail on this thread. I am afraid I fail to see how you can make a set of provocative statements and then shirk the consequences of having them discussed, debated, criticized if need be. As I have said several times before. I hold no brief for Islamic Fundamentalists and their political mentors in Bangladesh. I condemn them and their politics just as much as I condemn Hindu Fundamentalists and their political mentors in India. I have also no doubt that minorities in Bangladesh have just as hard a time as minorities do in India, Pakistan or Sri Lanka, and that it is the duty of every sane person in every country in South Asia to stand up against the discrimination against minorities in their own country. However, i find your remarks about the 'nature of Islam' in Bangladesh, unwarranted, xenophobic and deeply objectionable. I find them particularly pathetic, in the context of the deep anti- Bangladeshi prejudice that is being consciously stoked by Hindutva Fascists in India. I find them as objectionable as it would be if anyone were to suggest that the oppression meted out to Christians in Orissa or Muslims in Gujarat has anything to do with the 'nature of the Hindu religion' in India. I condemn your remarks in this regard exactly as I would have condemned anyone who attacked Hindus for being Hindus on this list. I am familiar both with the work of the Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Council (HBCUC) in Bangladesh as well as the contents of their website. I appreciate their work and think that they are doing excellent work in ensuring that the rights of minorities in Bangladesh are not trifled with. And I have studied their website, including the reports of 'atrocities' meted out to non-Muslims in Bangladesh. These incidents are not substantively different from the reports of any such incidents, especially as they pertain to the situation of minorities (Muslims, Christians and others) in india today. Morover, in a large number of incidents reported on the site, there is specific mention of action taken by the authorities to redress complaints as a result of the intervention of the HBCUC. I am not saying that these actions by the government are consistent or represent justice being done, just that a law and order problem (land grab, extortion) is treated with the tardiness or promptness with which law and order problems are treated anywhere in South Asia. The fact that complaints by the HBCUC are acted upon however itself goes to show that there is a vigorous mechanism within civil society in Bangladesh that fights against any effort to oppress minorities. This does not mean that the oppression does not occur, but that when it occurs, it does not go unchallenged. Further, the personalities you mention, (Shahriar Kabir, Daud Haider, Muntasir Mamun, Abul Barkat, Humayun Azad, Taslima Nasrin) some of whom have either been assasinated, exiled or detained, all of whose work I am acquainted with, happen to all have Muslim names. If Islam or an Islamic inheritance were of a uniform character were as monotonous as you imagine it to be, then, not a single one of these names would have been that of people born into a Muslim milieu. Their very presence in your mail exposes the hollowness of your position. And conversely, 'the nature of Islam' or of 'Hinduism' for that matter has nothing whatsoever to do with the base instincts and fascist politics of those who claim to speak in the name of either faith. For me, the disgusting politics of a Ghulam Azam or of a Motiur Rahman Nizami (erstwhile and present Ameers of the Jamiat e islami Bangladesh) or of a Praveen Togadia of the VHP or of a Narendra Modi of the BJP in India are cut from the same cloth. Finally, let me quote for you a 'Message of Greetings' by C.R. Datta, a decorated veteran of the War of Liberation of 1971 in Bangladesh, and currently Chairman of the Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Committee of Bangladesh (HBCUC)- an organization which you yourself invoke. This is my translation of the original Bengali version of the letter as published in this years Sharodiya/Puja Issue of 'Bodhan', a Bangla periodical published from Dhaka, (Bengali Calendar 1416) ---------------------- "Message of Greetings [Pg. 12, Bodhan (Sharodiya/Puja Issue, Bengali Calendar 1416)] Today is a day of great joy because Durga Puja, the most important festival for Bengali Hindu society is being celebrated for the first time in the Gulshan area of Dhaka. For us Durga Puja is a truly public festival, the divisions of community, caste and origin have no meaning in this context. In order for us to realize the true meaning of this celebration, it is necessary that this traditional festival be observed in different neighbourhoods of today's modern Dhaka. It is this feeling that inspires different groups of individuals to take the initiative to organize new Puja festivities in different neighbourhoods of Dhaka. I believe that this is a very important initiative from the point of view of the promotion and affirmation of our heritage and culture. The creation and sustenance of a non-secterian and secular milieu was one of the primary objectives of the struggle for the liberation of Bangladesh. In the last 37 years, no matter how eroded that ideal might have become in the course of the twists and turns and tumult of history, those of us who have irrigated that hard won freedom with our blood still believe that the vast majority of ordinary people in Bangladesh are still an exemplar of the upholding of the ideal combination of secularism in public contexts and religious piety in personal life. We hope that festivals such as Eid, Puja and Christmas continue to be celebrated in peoples hearts with the same kind of joy and devotion, We condemn and negate every kind of intolerant religious fanaticism and fundamentalism and call for an enlightened patriotism inspire the same feelings in all our hearts. This is our prayer today. This festival organized by the Gulshan Public Puja Celebration Committee will bring together people from every locality of Dhaka, regardless of religion or class. The Puja grounds will be flled with rhythm, music and the sound of prayers to the goddess Durga. The timeless stream of tradition and creativity will flow into modernity. With these hopes, I extend my seasons greetings to one and all. May truth and beauty prevail, Major General (retired) C. R. Datta, (Bir Uttom) Sector Commander of the Liberation War of 1971 President: Gulshan Public Puja Celebration Committee, 2007-2009 Principal Adviser: Bangladesh Puja Celebration Council Principal Adviser: Metropolitan Puja Celebration Council Chairman: Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Committee (Bangladesh) " ---------------- You will notice that Datta writes that: "those of us who have irrigated that hard won freedom with our blood still believe that the vast majority of ordinary people in Bangladesh are still an exemplar of the upholding of the ideal combination of secularism in public contexts and religious piety in personal life." If your observation that "the atrocities, tortures and ethnic cleansing of the Hindus from Bangladesh have few parallels in the modern history which is still going on everyday" were true, we would have difficulty in being able to justify the statement made by the above remark of the Chairman of an organization that you actually have the temerity to invoke in support of your argument. You cannot invoke an organization like the HBCUC and at the same time make remarks that are completely contradicted by its leadership. You cannot have it both ways. I reiterate, it is one thing to condemn the communal and secterian biases of the current political leadership of Bangladesh (which I do) and quite another to say that it is the 'Nature of Islam in Bangladesh' that gives rise to this phenomenon. I do hope you will choose your words more carefully in future, regards Shuddha ---------- On 06-Nov-08, at 7:49 AM, MRSG wrote: > Dear Khemendra Kaul, > My only request to you that to know the plights of the Hindus of > Bangladesh and nature of Islam in Bangladesh, do not be misguided > by the apologists of > Islamic barbarism who can cover the hard facts of Islamic > fundamentalism by their long academic discourses (and some blatant > lies like observing Durga > Puja freely) to confuse the issue. The atrocities, tortures and > ethnic cleansing of the Hindus from Bangladesh have few parallels > in the modern history which is still going on everyday. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 19:48:51 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:18:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] pls join protest march against ABVP vandalism at DU Message-ID: <603263.44721.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Please join a protest march against today's ABVP vandalism, at Vivekananda Statue, Arts Faculty, Delhi University at 11 am, on 7th November 2008 ------ *Press Note* *University Community, Delhi University* *6th November 2008* *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* Dear media persons and journalists, * * We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) in Delhi University, in which members of the press community were also made victims. The University Community, an independent group of students and teachers of Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism and Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. 22 Arts Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain College, University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one of the ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we realised that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – ABVP goondas were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur Sharma (of ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of this University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had taken due permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons who were covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, who were speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one of the media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and the Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting could not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who did the University administration side with? ABVP. It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on continuing the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the meeting continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the presence of a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their permission, they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to break the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan Murdabad, Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in particular was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the meeting from concluding successfully. We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort of ABVP *to snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. Last year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons who once attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right to hold meetings and discussions. During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the threat and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the secular and democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, and the politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and fear. If we remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is left to us in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a meeting in the University? Who does the University administration and Delhi Police support in the fight against fascism? *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of today's events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the University, at 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR against ABVP members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh Ratan, Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and goondaism and action against the people found guilty. * *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on similar issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * University Community *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, universitycommun... @gmail.com* -- MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... @gmail.com Phone:+91-9811209345 From vivek at sarai.net Thu Nov 6 19:56:12 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:56:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] a politics beyond periodic extravaganzas? Message-ID: <4912FE84.2050808@sarai.net> Some of you on the foil list will have already read this wonderful and universally relevant (to the discussion at hand) piece, posted by Sayan Bhattacharya-- Vivek "Let Us Shed Tears of Gratitude for This Moment of Grace. It Will Be Brief." by Mike Ferner My friend, Lucy Bohne, an English professor at a state college near Erie, Pennsylvania, wrote to her daughter today about Barack Obama's victory. Lucy did a fine job describing how many people feel the day after the Senator's historic victory. "Thank you for calling last night. It sounded like NYC had gone mad with joy! . . . I have spent the night in a roller coaster of amazement, shadowed by despair, counting the days between your birth and MLK's murder. Twelve, to be more or less exact. That was the joy -- to think that 40 years later your generation would hand the White House over to the leadership of a black American. That is an amazing thing! . . . The shadows -- well, you know them. This amazing thing that happened in America -- that only we, as Americans, can understand and share -- won't make a difference to the world, to the children in Baghdad, Beirut, Gaza, and Teheran, and all the other places in the crosshairs of our guns -- unless we make that difference. Might as well be brave and strong and admit that there is work to be done, struggles to embrace, disappointments to endure. But, for the moment, let us shed tears of gratitude for this moment of grace. It will be brief. Mom" Considering that race is always the subplot to the American story, many of us surely will "shed tears of gratitude for this moment of grace," no matter how brief. As we move beyond today's fleeting joys, I will recall how often during this presidential campaign people asked if I thought an Obama administration would by and large be a good thing. My response was always this: the best thing about an Obama victory would not be his policies -- he's shown too often they differ little from the status quo. The best thing his campaign and election offers is the way it has inspired millions of people to become active, to expect more, to work hard with many people towards something larger than themselves -- in short, to gain a sense of purpose. Then, if Obama's inspired grassroots campaigners discover in their hearts that citizen vigilance and organizing are just as important as elections; that creating democracy from the bottom up is more important than our quadrennial extravaganzas; that investments of time and energy commensurate with their newly-raised expectations must be made -- only then will we see change significant enough to make Obama's election more than a historical footnote. Who knows today what forces the hopes and dreams of this campaign may have unleashed? Who can say what historical events may be about to unfold, or how far they may go if we make conditions right for their growth? More importantly, when our "moment of grace" is indeed found to be brief and we must regroup over and over again, will these new, hopeful campaigners be savvy enough to overcome the American appetite for instant gratification that today is found only in shopping malls? That, I believe, is the challenge faced by all those who want schools and healthcare not empire and warfare; who want to ". . .make a difference to the world, to the children in Baghdad, Beirut, Gaza, and Teheran, and all the other places in the crosshairs of our guns." It is a tall challenge indeed. But if we are not up to it, who is? ---- Mike Ferner is a writer and activist from Ohio. Contact him at . From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Nov 6 19:59:04 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University In-Reply-To: <5f4dddc70811060444r57bb0ec4h36c9240946f4889b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f4dddc70811060444r57bb0ec4h36c9240946f4889b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, dear hany babu, I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in which they have conducted themselves. In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities and the police. This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. best Shuddha On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > *Press Note* > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > *6th November 2008* > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > * * > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > Akhil > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > in Delhi > University, in which members of the press community were also made > victims. > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > teachers of > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > and > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > 22 Arts > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > College, > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > of the > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > realised > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > ABVP goondas > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > Sharma (of > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > this > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > taken due > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > who were > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > who were > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > of the > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > the > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > could > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > did the > University administration side with? ABVP. > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > continuing > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > meeting > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > presence of > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > permission, > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > break > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > Murdabad, > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > particular > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > meeting from > concluding successfully. > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > of ABVP > *to > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > Last > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > who once > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > to hold > meetings and discussions. > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > threat > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > secular and > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > and the > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > fear. If we > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > left to us > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > and Delhi > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > today's > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > University, at > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > against ABVP > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > Ratan, > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > goondaism and > action against the people found guilty. * > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > similar > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > University Community > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > universitycommun... GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > @gmail.com* > -- > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > @gmail.com > Phone:+91-9811209345 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 20:58:48 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and the paid up writers Pawan Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > which they have conducted themselves. > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > compliant authorities and the police. > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > *Press Note* > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > * * > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > Akhil > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > in Delhi > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > victims. > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > teachers of > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > and > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > 22 Arts > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > College, > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > of the > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > realised > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > ABVP goondas > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > Sharma (of > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > this > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > taken due > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > who were > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > who were > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > of the > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > the > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > could > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > did the > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > continuing > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > meeting > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > presence of > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > permission, > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > break > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > Murdabad, > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > particular > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > meeting from > > concluding successfully. > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > of ABVP > > *to > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > Last > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > who once > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > to hold > > meetings and discussions. > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > threat > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > secular and > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > and the > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > fear. If we > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > left to us > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > and Delhi > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > today's > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > University, at > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > against ABVP > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > Ratan, > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > goondaism and > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > similar > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > University Community > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > universitycommun... > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com* > > -- > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > mdmahtaba... > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 21:26:26 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace@mail.gmail.com> Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the same to the contrary. As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to leave the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It was an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just to provoke the common student. It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful protesters which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP activist was injured in the entire protest. The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior information, and no permission was taken from them or the University authorities. Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face just trial. Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. Who decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of the panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the student community. I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > * * > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > Akhil > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > in Delhi > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > victims. > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > teachers of > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > and > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > 22 Arts > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > College, > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > of the > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > realised > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > Sharma (of > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > this > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > taken due > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > who were > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > who were > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > of the > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > the > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > could > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > did the > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > continuing > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > meeting > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > presence of > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > permission, > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > break > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > Murdabad, > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > particular > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > meeting from > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > of ABVP > > > *to > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > Last > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > who once > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > to hold > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > threat > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > secular and > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > and the > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > fear. If we > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > left to us > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > and Delhi > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > today's > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > University, at > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > against ABVP > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > Ratan, > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > goondaism and > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > similar > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > universitycommun... > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com* > > > -- > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > > mdmahtaba... > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 21:54:02 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:54:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How atrocious. I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose your views, I spit on it". Sounds so similar. J On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear all, dear hany babu, >> >> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >> which they have conducted themselves. >> >> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >> compliant authorities and the police. >> >> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >> >> > *Press Note* >> > >> > *University Community, Delhi University* >> > >> > *6th November 2008* >> > >> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >> > >> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >> > >> > Dear media persons and journalists, >> > >> > * * >> > >> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >> > Akhil >> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >> > in Delhi >> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >> > victims. >> > >> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >> > teachers of >> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >> > and >> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >> > 22 Arts >> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >> > >> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >> > College, >> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >> > of the >> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >> > realised >> > >> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >> > ABVP goondas >> > >> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >> > Sharma (of >> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >> > this >> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >> > taken due >> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >> > >> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >> > who were >> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >> > who were >> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >> > of the >> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >> > the >> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >> > could >> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >> > did the >> > University administration side with? ABVP. >> > >> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >> > continuing >> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >> > meeting >> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >> > presence of >> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >> > permission, >> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >> > break >> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >> > Murdabad, >> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >> > particular >> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >> > meeting from >> > concluding successfully. >> > >> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >> > of ABVP >> > *to >> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >> > Last >> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >> > who once >> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >> > to hold >> > meetings and discussions. >> > >> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >> > threat >> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >> > secular and >> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >> > and the >> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >> > fear. If we >> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >> > left to us >> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >> > and Delhi >> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >> > >> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >> > today's >> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >> > University, at >> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >> > >> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >> > against ABVP >> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >> > Ratan, >> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >> > >> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >> > goondaism and >> > action against the people found guilty. * >> > >> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >> > similar >> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >> > >> > University Community >> > >> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >> > universitycommun...> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > @gmail.com* >> > -- >> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >> > mdmahtaba...> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > @gmail.com >> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 22:11:05 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:11:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811060841w169cb96el364ded96e73e9541@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder Salim since Pragya Singh's and ABVP's links are well , I suggest you to keep low profile, unless you are too crazy, or you are a paid agent ? with love inder salim On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Javed wrote: > In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How > atrocious. > > I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose > your views, I spit on it". > > Sounds so similar. > > J > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >> >> So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or >> damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle >> power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >> patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and >> the paid up writers >> >> Pawan >> Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >> >> >> >> On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, dear hany babu, >>> >>> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >>> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >>> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >>> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >>> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >>> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >>> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >>> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >>> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >>> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >>> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >>> which they have conducted themselves. >>> >>> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >>> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >>> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >>> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >>> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >>> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >>> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >>> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >>> compliant authorities and the police. >>> >>> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >>> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >>> >>> > *Press Note* >>> > >>> > *University Community, Delhi University* >>> > >>> > *6th November 2008* >>> > >>> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >>> > >>> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >>> > >>> > Dear media persons and journalists, >>> > >>> > * * >>> > >>> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >>> > Akhil >>> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >>> > in Delhi >>> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >>> > victims. >>> > >>> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >>> > teachers of >>> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >>> > and >>> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >>> > 22 Arts >>> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >>> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >>> > >>> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >>> > College, >>> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >>> > of the >>> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >>> > realised >>> > >>> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >>> > ABVP goondas >>> > >>> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >>> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >>> > Sharma (of >>> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >>> > this >>> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >>> > taken due >>> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >>> > >>> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >>> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >>> > who were >>> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >>> > who were >>> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >>> > of the >>> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >>> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >>> > the >>> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >>> > could >>> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >>> > did the >>> > University administration side with? ABVP. >>> > >>> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >>> > continuing >>> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >>> > meeting >>> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >>> > presence of >>> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >>> > permission, >>> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >>> > break >>> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >>> > Murdabad, >>> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >>> > particular >>> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >>> > meeting from >>> > concluding successfully. >>> > >>> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >>> > of ABVP >>> > *to >>> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >>> > Last >>> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >>> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >>> > who once >>> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >>> > to hold >>> > meetings and discussions. >>> > >>> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >>> > threat >>> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >>> > secular and >>> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >>> > and the >>> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >>> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >>> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >>> > fear. If we >>> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >>> > left to us >>> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >>> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >>> > and Delhi >>> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >>> > >>> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >>> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >>> > today's >>> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >>> > University, at >>> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >>> > >>> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >>> > against ABVP >>> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >>> > Ratan, >>> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >>> > >>> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >>> > goondaism and >>> > action against the people found guilty. * >>> > >>> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >>> > similar >>> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >>> > >>> > University Community >>> > >>> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >>> > universitycommun...>> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >>> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> > @gmail.com* >>> > -- >>> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >>> > mdmahtaba...>> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >>> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> > @gmail.com >>> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 22:13:29 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:13:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811060841w169cb96el364ded96e73e9541@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811060841w169cb96el364ded96e73e9541@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811060843p56afd802h43bfbceec2811a41@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:11 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > > Since Pragya Singh's and ABVP's links are well known , I suggest you to keep low profile, unless you are too crazy, or, you are a paid agent ? > > with love > inder salim > > > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Javed wrote: >> In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How >> atrocious. >> >> I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose >> your views, I spit on it". >> >> Sounds so similar. >> >> J >> >> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >>> >>> So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or >>> damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle >>> power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >>> patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and >>> the paid up writers >>> >>> Pawan >>> Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear all, dear hany babu, >>>> >>>> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >>>> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >>>> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >>>> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >>>> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >>>> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >>>> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >>>> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >>>> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >>>> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >>>> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >>>> which they have conducted themselves. >>>> >>>> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >>>> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >>>> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >>>> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >>>> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >>>> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >>>> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >>>> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >>>> compliant authorities and the police. >>>> >>>> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >>>> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >>>> >>>> > *Press Note* >>>> > >>>> > *University Community, Delhi University* >>>> > >>>> > *6th November 2008* >>>> > >>>> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >>>> > >>>> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >>>> > >>>> > Dear media persons and journalists, >>>> > >>>> > * * >>>> > >>>> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >>>> > Akhil >>>> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >>>> > in Delhi >>>> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >>>> > victims. >>>> > >>>> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >>>> > teachers of >>>> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >>>> > and >>>> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >>>> > 22 Arts >>>> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >>>> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >>>> > >>>> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >>>> > College, >>>> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >>>> > of the >>>> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >>>> > realised >>>> > >>>> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >>>> > ABVP goondas >>>> > >>>> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >>>> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >>>> > Sharma (of >>>> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >>>> > this >>>> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >>>> > taken due >>>> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >>>> > >>>> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >>>> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >>>> > who were >>>> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >>>> > who were >>>> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >>>> > of the >>>> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >>>> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >>>> > the >>>> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >>>> > could >>>> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >>>> > did the >>>> > University administration side with? ABVP. >>>> > >>>> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >>>> > continuing >>>> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >>>> > meeting >>>> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >>>> > presence of >>>> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >>>> > permission, >>>> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >>>> > break >>>> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >>>> > Murdabad, >>>> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >>>> > particular >>>> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >>>> > meeting from >>>> > concluding successfully. >>>> > >>>> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >>>> > of ABVP >>>> > *to >>>> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >>>> > Last >>>> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >>>> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >>>> > who once >>>> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >>>> > to hold >>>> > meetings and discussions. >>>> > >>>> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >>>> > threat >>>> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >>>> > secular and >>>> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >>>> > and the >>>> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >>>> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >>>> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >>>> > fear. If we >>>> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >>>> > left to us >>>> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >>>> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >>>> > and Delhi >>>> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >>>> > >>>> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >>>> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >>>> > today's >>>> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >>>> > University, at >>>> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >>>> > >>>> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >>>> > against ABVP >>>> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >>>> > Ratan, >>>> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >>>> > >>>> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >>>> > goondaism and >>>> > action against the people found guilty. * >>>> > >>>> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >>>> > similar >>>> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >>>> > >>>> > University Community >>>> > >>>> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >>>> > universitycommun...>>> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >>>> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>>> > @gmail.com* >>>> > -- >>>> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >>>> > mdmahtaba...>>> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >>>> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>>> > @gmail.com >>>> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kaksanjay at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 22:13:33 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:13:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the vandalism Message-ID: <5c5369880811060843m23f1c330lf019863521c495ac@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha I think you ought not to be shocked to read about the the vandalism of the ABVP and RSS–and indeed the full range of the Far Right–in Delhi University. There is now a lenthening history of their complete inability to hear anything remotely challenging of their narrow and parochial views. To engage intelligently with ideas–or even to ignore them–is beyond their jackbooted imaginations. So for us to bring in the issue of prior permissions is to turn once again to an old and threadbare relief. Like we have all realised with the Indian Film Censor board, and its mythical protection of even "censor approved" films, when thugs (whether in khaki shorts, khaki uniforms or indeed blue jeans) want to stop an event, the law is ever willing to step aside. A month ago I was invited to the opening event of a cultural festival–the first ever–in the Law Faculty at Delhi University. There was to be a screening of my film about the troubles in Kashmir, Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom), followed by a discussion with the students. I walked into the campus at the appropriate hour: there were banners all over announcing the festival (and the screening, and the discussion). Very cheerful and promising. But half an hour before the event was to begin the local Station House Officer (probably the same helpful cop, Mr Joshi) called up the "Authorities" and had the screening cancelled. Why? Because the self-same ABVP–or someone pretending to be them–had threatened to disrupt the screening. Interestingly when I walked into the room–to begin the usual ritual of the lighting of a lamp (!)–the "Authority" who had agreed to the festival, the screening, and the discussion, and who was the recepient of the SHO's call, was represented by his name-plate on the dias. This was clearly not a case of prior permission not having been taken. He had simply disappeared to avoid being embarrassed. In a word: Capitulation. We did not all keel over and melt, like the "Authorities". The students, a few of the faculty, and I used the platform to discuss the politics of censorship and of Kashmir, the censorship of Kashmir and it's politics, and the intricate links between the two. For a straight two hours. And rumour has it that on the next available occasion the students managed to screen a pirated preview copy on their own. (What if SHO Joshi heard about that? Heavens!) What happened in Delhi University yesterday must be contested and fought. We can't let the foot-soldiers of the right–with their paranoid fears of being brain-washed–decide who has the right to speak, and on what. At least not on this campus. Best Sanjay Kak From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 22:44:44 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:44:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811060914g2d56d329vf34033fb7eb6dedb@mail.gmail.com> What proof do you have Javed, that they were ABVP people ? ABVP protest started much after this incident took place. Check your facts before opening your big mouth. Why not question Geelani's presence ? P.S. - The entire country anyway spits at people like Geelani. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/6/08, Javed wrote: > > In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How > atrocious. > > I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose > your views, I spit on it". > > Sounds so similar. > > > J > > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > > the paid up writers > > > > Pawan > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear all, dear hany babu, > >> > >> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > >> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > >> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > >> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > >> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > >> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > >> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > >> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > >> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > >> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > >> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > >> which they have conducted themselves. > >> > >> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > >> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > >> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > >> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > >> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > >> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > >> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > >> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > >> compliant authorities and the police. > >> > >> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > >> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > >> > >> best > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > >> > >> > *Press Note* > >> > > >> > *University Community, Delhi University* > >> > > >> > *6th November 2008* > >> > > >> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > >> > > >> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > >> > > >> > Dear media persons and journalists, > >> > > >> > * * > >> > > >> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > >> > Akhil > >> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > >> > in Delhi > >> > University, in which members of the press community were also made > >> > victims. > >> > > >> > The University Community, an independent group of students and > >> > teachers of > >> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > >> > and > >> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > >> > 22 Arts > >> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > >> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > >> > > >> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > >> > College, > >> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > >> > of the > >> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > >> > realised > >> > > >> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > >> > ABVP goondas > >> > > >> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > >> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > >> > Sharma (of > >> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > >> > this > >> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > >> > taken due > >> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > >> > > >> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > >> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > >> > who were > >> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > >> > who were > >> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > >> > of the > >> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > >> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > >> > the > >> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > >> > could > >> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > >> > did the > >> > University administration side with? ABVP. > >> > > >> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > >> > continuing > >> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > >> > meeting > >> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > >> > presence of > >> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > >> > permission, > >> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > >> > break > >> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > >> > Murdabad, > >> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > >> > particular > >> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > >> > meeting from > >> > concluding successfully. > >> > > >> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > >> > of ABVP > >> > *to > >> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > >> > Last > >> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > >> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > >> > who once > >> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > >> > to hold > >> > meetings and discussions. > >> > > >> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > >> > threat > >> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > >> > secular and > >> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > >> > and the > >> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > >> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > >> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > >> > fear. If we > >> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > >> > left to us > >> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > >> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > >> > and Delhi > >> > Police support in the fight against fascism? > >> > > >> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > >> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > >> > today's > >> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > >> > University, at > >> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > >> > > >> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > >> > against ABVP > >> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > >> > Ratan, > >> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > >> > > >> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > >> > goondaism and > >> > action against the people found guilty. * > >> > > >> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > >> > similar > >> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > >> > > >> > University Community > >> > > >> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > >> > universitycommun... >> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > >> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > >> > @gmail.com* > >> > -- > >> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > >> > mdmahtaba... >> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > >> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > >> > @gmail.com > >> > Phone:+91-9811209345 > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> www.sarai.net > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:06:59 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:06:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <6353c690811060914g2d56d329vf34033fb7eb6dedb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811060914g2d56d329vf34033fb7eb6dedb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811060936i2ed8d7d2w4438c040ec7a0076@mail.gmail.com> Don't talk utter and complete nonsense aditya. There is no prior permission required from the SHO to organize an event in the university. SAR Geelani is a teacher in DU. He has an absolute right to speak in his own University. How dare you say that a teacher must seek permission for anyone to speak in the university. And as for the ABVP it it nothing but a collection of lumpens and goons well known for violence. Do you think we don't know what the ABVP is about? You are so far gone in terms of any ethical standards that I truly pity you and your ilk. On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > What proof do you have Javed, that they were ABVP people ? > > ABVP protest started much after this incident took place. > > Check your facts before opening your big mouth. Why not question Geelani's > presence ? > > P.S. - The entire country anyway spits at people like Geelani. > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 11/6/08, Javed wrote: >> >> In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How >> atrocious. >> >> I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose >> your views, I spit on it". >> >> Sounds so similar. >> >> >> J >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >> > >> > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or >> > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle >> > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >> > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and >> > the paid up writers >> > >> > Pawan >> > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear all, dear hany babu, >> >> >> >> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >> >> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >> >> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >> >> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >> >> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >> >> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >> >> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >> >> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >> >> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >> >> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >> >> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >> >> which they have conducted themselves. >> >> >> >> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >> >> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >> >> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >> >> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >> >> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >> >> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >> >> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >> >> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >> >> compliant authorities and the police. >> >> >> >> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >> >> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >> >> >> >> best >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >> >> >> >> > *Press Note* >> >> > >> >> > *University Community, Delhi University* >> >> > >> >> > *6th November 2008* >> >> > >> >> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >> >> > >> >> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >> >> > >> >> > Dear media persons and journalists, >> >> > >> >> > * * >> >> > >> >> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >> >> > Akhil >> >> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >> >> > in Delhi >> >> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >> >> > victims. >> >> > >> >> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >> >> > teachers of >> >> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >> >> > and >> >> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >> >> > 22 Arts >> >> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >> >> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >> >> > >> >> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >> >> > College, >> >> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >> >> > of the >> >> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >> >> > realised >> >> > >> >> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >> >> > ABVP goondas >> >> > >> >> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >> >> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >> >> > Sharma (of >> >> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >> >> > this >> >> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >> >> > taken due >> >> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >> >> > >> >> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >> >> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >> >> > who were >> >> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >> >> > who were >> >> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >> >> > of the >> >> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >> >> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >> >> > the >> >> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >> >> > could >> >> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >> >> > did the >> >> > University administration side with? ABVP. >> >> > >> >> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >> >> > continuing >> >> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >> >> > meeting >> >> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >> >> > presence of >> >> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >> >> > permission, >> >> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >> >> > break >> >> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >> >> > Murdabad, >> >> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >> >> > particular >> >> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >> >> > meeting from >> >> > concluding successfully. >> >> > >> >> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >> >> > of ABVP >> >> > *to >> >> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >> >> > Last >> >> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >> >> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >> >> > who once >> >> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >> >> > to hold >> >> > meetings and discussions. >> >> > >> >> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >> >> > threat >> >> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >> >> > secular and >> >> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >> >> > and the >> >> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >> >> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >> >> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >> >> > fear. If we >> >> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >> >> > left to us >> >> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >> >> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >> >> > and Delhi >> >> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >> >> > >> >> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >> >> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >> >> > today's >> >> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >> >> > University, at >> >> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >> >> > >> >> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >> >> > against ABVP >> >> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >> >> > Ratan, >> >> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >> >> > >> >> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >> >> > goondaism and >> >> > action against the people found guilty. * >> >> > >> >> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >> >> > similar >> >> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >> >> > >> >> > University Community >> >> > >> >> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >> >> > universitycommun...> >> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >> >> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> >> > @gmail.com* >> >> > -- >> >> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >> >> > mdmahtaba...> >> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >> >> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> >> > @gmail.com >> >> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> >> Raqs Media Collective >> >> shuddha at sarai.net >> >> www.sarai.net >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:29:04 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:29:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dont let the Hindu right take over our universities!! Message-ID: <48c2916d0811060959vc910726td922199fb247cfd6@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, As someone who done a large part of my education in DU and JNU I am more and more distressed at the way in which our universities are becoming locked in the strangehold of the facist Hindu right. The incident which friends have reported is not new, as Sanjay mentions. It is one more shameful incident in the long list of assaults that are becoming routine on democratic spaces and voices. What is a university for if not to discuss matters that affect us all in a free and non-threatening atmosphere? Perhaps this is exactly what the right fears. That even as their tentacles spread rapidly through our polity, the university still stands as space where its violent fascist vision of this country is challenged, resisted, questioned, fought. last year the ABVP created mayhem on the night of the presidential speeches in JNU. They attacked a dalit candidate, broke down the stage, and injured students watching the debates. The police had to be called in. Last year we screened Sanjay's film in JNU. A week before the screening the ABVP tried to stop the event by threatening violence. It was only because a large number of students and the left mobilized that they were dissuaded, and the event took place. When the first queer collective in JNU - Anjuman- had tehir first public meeting in JNU three years ago, the ABVP again attacked students for no reason except that for these bigots same-sex love is against their perverse definition of "indian" culture. How long will we let them hold us to ransom? How long will this be allowed to continue? The ABVP make the campus unsafe for everyone who studies there. The ABVP lumpens are routinely involved in sexual harassment cases - I was stalked for 6 months by an ABVP goon when I was an M.A student in Arts faculty. A friend and I were routinely accosted in the lawns by the self-styled protectors of "indian" culture because we were women smoking in public. And I promise you, many women have far worse stories to share. I urge everyone to come in large numbers tomorrow and insist that the authorities take immediate action against those responsible. As DUSU president Nupur Sharma has a moral responsibility to ensure that action is taken against the goons from her own party who are responsible for today's incident. In solidarity Aarti From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:34:45 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:34:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811060936i2ed8d7d2w4438c040ec7a0076@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811060914g2d56d329vf34033fb7eb6dedb@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811060936i2ed8d7d2w4438c040ec7a0076@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811061004l117c8883q5b35dc81f21557c0@mail.gmail.com> Oh Shut Up..Aarti, Will you ? Wouldn't it be an under-staement if I say, you are a gone case ??? I shouldn't even consider your comment, as you weren't part of this seminar or protest. But, you have an opinion about just everything..and always negative....Jhollah Ideology!!! If S.A.R. Geelani is a teacher in DU (God Knows what he teaches!) that doesn't give him all rights to speak against a particular community Hindus) so openly, that too in an address to the students. When did he become an expert on any such issue of national importance ? Contrary to it, he is still accussed of being part of hatching the plan for Parliament Attack. We won't tolerate these communal lectures and panel discussions to brainwash common University student. Enough of your tirade my friend. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Don't talk utter and complete nonsense aditya. There is no prior > permission required from the SHO to organize an event in the > university. SAR Geelani is a teacher in DU. He has an absolute right > to speak in his own University. How dare you say that a teacher must > seek permission for anyone to speak in the university. And as for the > ABVP it it nothing but a collection of lumpens and goons well known > for violence. Do you think we don't know what the ABVP is about? You > are so far gone in terms of any ethical standards that I truly pity > you and your ilk. > > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > What proof do you have Javed, that they were ABVP people ? > > > > ABVP protest started much after this incident took place. > > > > Check your facts before opening your big mouth. Why not question > Geelani's > > presence ? > > > > P.S. - The entire country anyway spits at people like Geelani. > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 11/6/08, Javed wrote: > >> > >> In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How > >> atrocious. > >> > >> I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose > >> your views, I spit on it". > >> > >> Sounds so similar. > >> > >> > >> J > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > >> > > >> > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people > or > >> > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is > muscle > >> > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > >> > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists > and > >> > the paid up writers > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear all, dear hany babu, > >> >> > >> >> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > >> >> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > >> >> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > >> >> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > >> >> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > >> >> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > >> >> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > >> >> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > >> >> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > >> >> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > >> >> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > >> >> which they have conducted themselves. > >> >> > >> >> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > >> >> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > >> >> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > >> >> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > >> >> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > >> >> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > >> >> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > >> >> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > >> >> compliant authorities and the police. > >> >> > >> >> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > >> >> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > >> >> > >> >> best > >> >> > >> >> Shuddha > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > *Press Note* > >> >> > > >> >> > *University Community, Delhi University* > >> >> > > >> >> > *6th November 2008* > >> >> > > >> >> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > >> >> > > >> >> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > >> >> > > >> >> > Dear media persons and journalists, > >> >> > > >> >> > * * > >> >> > > >> >> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > >> >> > Akhil > >> >> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > >> >> > in Delhi > >> >> > University, in which members of the press community were also made > >> >> > victims. > >> >> > > >> >> > The University Community, an independent group of students and > >> >> > teachers of > >> >> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > >> >> > and > >> >> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > >> >> > 22 Arts > >> >> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would > be > >> >> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > >> >> > > >> >> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > >> >> > College, > >> >> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > >> >> > of the > >> >> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > >> >> > realised > >> >> > > >> >> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > >> >> > ABVP goondas > >> >> > > >> >> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > >> >> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > >> >> > Sharma (of > >> >> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > >> >> > this > >> >> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > >> >> > taken due > >> >> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > >> >> > > >> >> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke > the > >> >> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > >> >> > who were > >> >> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > >> >> > who were > >> >> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > >> >> > of the > >> >> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she > was > >> >> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > >> >> > the > >> >> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > >> >> > could > >> >> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > >> >> > did the > >> >> > University administration side with? ABVP. > >> >> > > >> >> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > >> >> > continuing > >> >> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > >> >> > meeting > >> >> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > >> >> > presence of > >> >> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > >> >> > permission, > >> >> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > >> >> > break > >> >> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > >> >> > Murdabad, > >> >> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > >> >> > particular > >> >> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > >> >> > meeting from > >> >> > concluding successfully. > >> >> > > >> >> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > >> >> > of ABVP > >> >> > *to > >> >> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > >> >> > Last > >> >> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department > were > >> >> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > >> >> > who once > >> >> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > >> >> > to hold > >> >> > meetings and discussions. > >> >> > > >> >> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > >> >> > threat > >> >> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > >> >> > secular and > >> >> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > >> >> > and the > >> >> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack > on > >> >> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for > the > >> >> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > >> >> > fear. If we > >> >> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > >> >> > left to us > >> >> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold > a > >> >> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > >> >> > and Delhi > >> >> > Police support in the fight against fascism? > >> >> > > >> >> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against > this > >> >> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > >> >> > today's > >> >> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > >> >> > University, at > >> >> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > >> >> > > >> >> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > >> >> > against ABVP > >> >> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > >> >> > Ratan, > >> >> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > >> >> > > >> >> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > >> >> > goondaism and > >> >> > action against the people found guilty. * > >> >> > > >> >> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > >> >> > similar > >> >> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > >> >> > > >> >> > University Community > >> >> > > >> >> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > >> >> > universitycommun... >> >> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > >> >> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > >> >> > @gmail.com* > >> >> > -- > >> >> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > >> >> > mdmahtaba...< > http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ > >> >> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > >> >> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > >> >> > @gmail.com > >> >> > Phone:+91-9811209345 > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> >> Raqs Media Collective > >> >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> >> www.sarai.net > >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:38:37 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:38:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811060936i2ed8d7d2w4438c040ec7a0076@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811060914g2d56d329vf34033fb7eb6dedb@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811060936i2ed8d7d2w4438c040ec7a0076@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811061008t562a7246l8fe4c470443c1098@mail.gmail.com> article, all stuudent unions are known to have indulged in violence .abvp is no exception. probably the student unions with leftist ideologies are the worst.i can shares many details about their conduct . anyway the program ended as the organizers wished. in controversy.....? Pawan jai andhra jai hind On 11/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Don't talk utter and complete nonsense aditya. There is no prior > permission required from the SHO to organize an event in the > university. SAR Geelani is a teacher in DU. He has an absolute right > to speak in his own University. How dare you say that a teacher must > seek permission for anyone to speak in the university. And as for the > ABVP it it nothing but a collection of lumpens and goons well known > for violence. Do you think we don't know what the ABVP is about? You > are so far gone in terms of any ethical standards that I truly pity > you and your ilk. > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> What proof do you have Javed, that they were ABVP people ? >> >> ABVP protest started much after this incident took place. >> >> Check your facts before opening your big mouth. Why not question Geelani's >> presence ? >> >> P.S. - The entire country anyway spits at people like Geelani. >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> On 11/6/08, Javed wrote: >>> >>> In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How >>> atrocious. >>> >>> I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose >>> your views, I spit on it". >>> >>> Sounds so similar. >>> >>> >>> J >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani >>> wrote: >>> > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >>> > >>> > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people >>> > or >>> > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is >>> > muscle >>> > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >>> > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists >>> > and >>> > the paid up writers >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear all, dear hany babu, >>> >> >>> >> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >>> >> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >>> >> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >>> >> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >>> >> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >>> >> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >>> >> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >>> >> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >>> >> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >>> >> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >>> >> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >>> >> which they have conducted themselves. >>> >> >>> >> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >>> >> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >>> >> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >>> >> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >>> >> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >>> >> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >>> >> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >>> >> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >>> >> compliant authorities and the police. >>> >> >>> >> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >>> >> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >>> >> >>> >> best >>> >> >>> >> Shuddha >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > *Press Note* >>> >> > >>> >> > *University Community, Delhi University* >>> >> > >>> >> > *6th November 2008* >>> >> > >>> >> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >>> >> > >>> >> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >>> >> > >>> >> > Dear media persons and journalists, >>> >> > >>> >> > * * >>> >> > >>> >> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >>> >> > Akhil >>> >> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >>> >> > in Delhi >>> >> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >>> >> > victims. >>> >> > >>> >> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >>> >> > teachers of >>> >> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >>> >> > and >>> >> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >>> >> > 22 Arts >>> >> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would >>> >> > be >>> >> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >>> >> > >>> >> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >>> >> > College, >>> >> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >>> >> > of the >>> >> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >>> >> > realised >>> >> > >>> >> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >>> >> > ABVP goondas >>> >> > >>> >> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >>> >> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >>> >> > Sharma (of >>> >> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >>> >> > this >>> >> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >>> >> > taken due >>> >> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >>> >> > >>> >> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke >>> >> > the >>> >> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >>> >> > who were >>> >> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >>> >> > who were >>> >> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >>> >> > of the >>> >> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >>> >> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >>> >> > the >>> >> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >>> >> > could >>> >> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >>> >> > did the >>> >> > University administration side with? ABVP. >>> >> > >>> >> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >>> >> > continuing >>> >> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >>> >> > meeting >>> >> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >>> >> > presence of >>> >> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >>> >> > permission, >>> >> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >>> >> > break >>> >> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >>> >> > Murdabad, >>> >> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >>> >> > particular >>> >> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >>> >> > meeting from >>> >> > concluding successfully. >>> >> > >>> >> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >>> >> > of ABVP >>> >> > *to >>> >> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >>> >> > Last >>> >> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department >>> >> > were >>> >> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >>> >> > who once >>> >> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >>> >> > to hold >>> >> > meetings and discussions. >>> >> > >>> >> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >>> >> > threat >>> >> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >>> >> > secular and >>> >> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >>> >> > and the >>> >> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack >>> >> > on >>> >> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for >>> >> > the >>> >> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >>> >> > fear. If we >>> >> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >>> >> > left to us >>> >> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold >>> >> > a >>> >> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >>> >> > and Delhi >>> >> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >>> >> > >>> >> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against >>> >> > this >>> >> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >>> >> > today's >>> >> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >>> >> > University, at >>> >> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >>> >> > >>> >> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >>> >> > against ABVP >>> >> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >>> >> > Ratan, >>> >> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >>> >> > >>> >> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >>> >> > goondaism and >>> >> > action against the people found guilty. * >>> >> > >>> >> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >>> >> > similar >>> >> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >>> >> > >>> >> > University Community >>> >> > >>> >> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >>> >> > universitycommun...>> >> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >>> >> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> >> > @gmail.com* >>> >> > -- >>> >> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >>> >> > mdmahtaba...>> >> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >>> >> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> >> > @gmail.com >>> >> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> >> Raqs Media Collective >>> >> shuddha at sarai.net >>> >> www.sarai.net >>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:45:05 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:45:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Don't tolerate 'Terrorists' in Delhi University. Message-ID: <6353c690811061015x49e2f347j65c53df452ac950f@mail.gmail.com> ABVP activists 'allegedly' interrupted a meeting on 'Hindu' fascism. And only tried talking to speaker S.A.R. Geelani. This incident has been blown out of proportion by so called 'secularists' who're actually acting against this country's sovereignty. This speaker is the same 'terrorist' who's accused in the Parliament Attack Case. And instead of rightfully being jailed is being paraded in seminars and discussions by self proclaimed 'liberalists' as an expert on secularism. It's a public mockery of the Indian Democracy. Please show solidarity towards the Indian Constitution and avoid tomorrow's protest at the Arts Faculty. Jai Hind. Aditya Raj Kaul From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:49:04 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:49:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dont let the Hindu right take over our universities!! In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811060959vc910726td922199fb247cfd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0811060959vc910726td922199fb247cfd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811061019q646b1052q417ebedbfd44c98@mail.gmail.com> instead the leftist and the islamists shud take over. if leftist were lesser goons,how else did they ensure screening fiction movie of sanju kaka against abvp wishes. doesn't that mean leftist take command over goons and are bigger goons. Pawan I like woman who smoke,why double standards in smoking community On 11/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear All, > > As someone who done a large part of my education in DU and JNU I am > more and more distressed at the way in which our universities are > becoming locked in the strangehold of the facist Hindu right. The > incident which friends have reported is not new, as Sanjay mentions. > It is one more shameful incident in the long list of assaults that are > becoming routine on democratic spaces and voices. What is a university > for if not to discuss matters that affect us all in a free and > non-threatening atmosphere? Perhaps this is exactly what the right > fears. That even as their tentacles spread rapidly through our polity, > the university still stands as space where its violent fascist vision > of this country is challenged, resisted, questioned, fought. last year > the ABVP created mayhem on the night of the presidential speeches in > JNU. They attacked a dalit candidate, broke down the stage, and > injured students watching the debates. The police had to be called in. > Last year we screened Sanjay's film in JNU. A week before the > screening the ABVP tried to stop the event by threatening violence. It > was only because a large number of students and the left mobilized > that they were dissuaded, and the event took place. When the first > queer collective in JNU - Anjuman- had tehir first public meeting in > JNU three years ago, the ABVP again attacked students for no reason > except that for these bigots same-sex love is against their perverse > definition of "indian" culture. How long will we let them hold us to > ransom? How long will this be allowed to continue? > > The ABVP make the campus unsafe for everyone who studies there. The > ABVP lumpens are routinely involved in sexual harassment cases - I was > stalked for 6 months by an ABVP goon when I was an M.A student in Arts > faculty. A friend and I were routinely accosted in the lawns by the > self-styled protectors of "indian" culture because we were women > smoking in public. And I promise you, many women have far worse > stories to share. > > I urge everyone to come in large numbers tomorrow and insist that the > authorities take immediate action against those responsible. As DUSU > president Nupur Sharma has a moral responsibility to ensure that > action is taken against the goons from her own party who are > responsible for today's incident. > > In solidarity > Aarti > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 23:52:30 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:52:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dont let the Hindu right take over our universities!! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811061019q646b1052q417ebedbfd44c98@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0811060959vc910726td922199fb247cfd6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811061019q646b1052q417ebedbfd44c98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811061022p432781dfx1bd4173ea028c8cd@mail.gmail.com> Poor Aarti. Even the GoI's Ramdoss banned public smoking. I sympathise with you. It takes courage lady, to write thesis on a non-issue. You did it!! :-) Always Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > instead the leftist and the islamists shud take over. > > if leftist were lesser goons,how else did they ensure screening > fiction movie of sanju kaka against abvp wishes. > > doesn't that mean leftist take command over goons and are bigger goons. > > Pawan > I like woman who smoke,why double standards in smoking community > > > On 11/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > As someone who done a large part of my education in DU and JNU I am > > more and more distressed at the way in which our universities are > > becoming locked in the strangehold of the facist Hindu right. The > > incident which friends have reported is not new, as Sanjay mentions. > > It is one more shameful incident in the long list of assaults that are > > becoming routine on democratic spaces and voices. What is a university > > for if not to discuss matters that affect us all in a free and > > non-threatening atmosphere? Perhaps this is exactly what the right > > fears. That even as their tentacles spread rapidly through our polity, > > the university still stands as space where its violent fascist vision > > of this country is challenged, resisted, questioned, fought. last year > > the ABVP created mayhem on the night of the presidential speeches in > > JNU. They attacked a dalit candidate, broke down the stage, and > > injured students watching the debates. The police had to be called in. > > Last year we screened Sanjay's film in JNU. A week before the > > screening the ABVP tried to stop the event by threatening violence. It > > was only because a large number of students and the left mobilized > > that they were dissuaded, and the event took place. When the first > > queer collective in JNU - Anjuman- had tehir first public meeting in > > JNU three years ago, the ABVP again attacked students for no reason > > except that for these bigots same-sex love is against their perverse > > definition of "indian" culture. How long will we let them hold us to > > ransom? How long will this be allowed to continue? > > > > The ABVP make the campus unsafe for everyone who studies there. The > > ABVP lumpens are routinely involved in sexual harassment cases - I was > > stalked for 6 months by an ABVP goon when I was an M.A student in Arts > > faculty. A friend and I were routinely accosted in the lawns by the > > self-styled protectors of "indian" culture because we were women > > smoking in public. And I promise you, many women have far worse > > stories to share. > > > > I urge everyone to come in large numbers tomorrow and insist that the > > authorities take immediate action against those responsible. As DUSU > > president Nupur Sharma has a moral responsibility to ensure that > > action is taken against the goons from her own party who are > > responsible for today's incident. > > > > In solidarity > > Aarti > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 01:16:47 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 01:16:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence Message-ID: <98f331e00811061146u45961d50t32f5e4df8e496d50@mail.gmail.com> Dear all or atleast whom it may concern, Some fanatics think that they have only authority to speak, to do, to bark and to bite. They have many names and faces: Bal Thakrey, Raj Thakrey, Babu Bajrangi, Togadia, Aditya Raj....... I wonder if they know that the great grand father of the hindutva brigade Mr Savarkar delivered his two most famous speeches in British universities in 1906 and 1907 against the British Rule in India. I quote from the Report of the Committee on the Working of Central Universities (appointed by the UGC, 1983, p.44): "Political activity in the universities is natural because the university is a community of thinking people, of those who are exploring the frontiers of knowledge and of those who criticize and evaluate every idea before accepting it. Our democratic tradition, and now the Constitution, ensures fundamental rights to all citizens, which include freedom of thought and speech, and freedom of association. Teachers and a section of students are not only voters but they can also be candidates in local, State or Parliamentary elections. We, therefore, see nothing wrong in political parties being active on the campuses of our universities. Presentation of and debates about different ideologies and plans and perspective of national development are to be welcomed and political activity directed towards this end would be wholesome for the growth of the universities." Nothing more to say... Prakash From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 04:47:45 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 18:17:45 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Dont let the Hindu right take over our universities!! References: <48c2916d0811060959vc910726td922199fb247cfd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3712FE18A7ED48BA8EA4A6FD2E31E99F@tara> All of us should be really concerned the way the democratic political processes are being vitiated in the universities in India. They irritate you, intimidate you; if you still dare to speak, they rusticate you (get rid of you by any means, even if murder). ABVP have perfected the art of browbeating, NSUI are almost there. SFI, well they are not really different from NSUI, so almost there. ABVP, self-styled custodians of Hindu religion, will not mind smearing the face of their teacher before lynching him to death. We have people on this list who have defended the murderers of Prof. Sabbarwal. I wonder if they know anything about the religion who they think sanctions the violence perpetrated by them. The teacher in Hindu religion is more important than any God. So what? They have killed the God to take his place. Guru cannot be more difficult than killing God!!! I am not really worried about God, teachers and students need to unite to get rid of such goons in academic institutes. I was pretty impressed by the absence of acrimony between opposing camps in the political campaigns in the universities in the US. India is also a democratic country I believe. At least it used to be. If democratic process is thwarted in the Universities, I wonder where can it survive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aarti Sethi" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:59 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Dont let the Hindu right take over our universities!! > Dear All, > > As someone who done a large part of my education in DU and JNU I am > more and more distressed at the way in which our universities are > becoming locked in the strangehold of the facist Hindu right. The > incident which friends have reported is not new, as Sanjay mentions. > It is one more shameful incident in the long list of assaults that are > becoming routine on democratic spaces and voices. What is a university > for if not to discuss matters that affect us all in a free and > non-threatening atmosphere? Perhaps this is exactly what the right > fears. That even as their tentacles spread rapidly through our polity, > the university still stands as space where its violent fascist vision > of this country is challenged, resisted, questioned, fought. last year > the ABVP created mayhem on the night of the presidential speeches in > JNU. They attacked a dalit candidate, broke down the stage, and > injured students watching the debates. The police had to be called in. > Last year we screened Sanjay's film in JNU. A week before the > screening the ABVP tried to stop the event by threatening violence. It > was only because a large number of students and the left mobilized > that they were dissuaded, and the event took place. When the first > queer collective in JNU - Anjuman- had tehir first public meeting in > JNU three years ago, the ABVP again attacked students for no reason > except that for these bigots same-sex love is against their perverse > definition of "indian" culture. How long will we let them hold us to > ransom? How long will this be allowed to continue? > > The ABVP make the campus unsafe for everyone who studies there. The > ABVP lumpens are routinely involved in sexual harassment cases - I was > stalked for 6 months by an ABVP goon when I was an M.A student in Arts > faculty. A friend and I were routinely accosted in the lawns by the > self-styled protectors of "indian" culture because we were women > smoking in public. And I promise you, many women have far worse > stories to share. > > I urge everyone to come in large numbers tomorrow and insist that the > authorities take immediate action against those responsible. As DUSU > president Nupur Sharma has a moral responsibility to ensure that > action is taken against the goons from her own party who are > responsible for today's incident. > > In solidarity > Aarti > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 05:46:06 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:16:06 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence References: <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11CB6051C40D4254A2C0E6230C1DBC15@tara> I read it in Inder Salam's mail. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Javed" To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: ; "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How > atrocious. > > I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose > your views, I spit on it". > > Sounds so similar. > > J > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: >> Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >> >> So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or >> damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle >> power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >> patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and >> the paid up writers >> >> Pawan >> Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >> >> >> >> On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, dear hany babu, >>> >>> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >>> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >>> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >>> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >>> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >>> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >>> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >>> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >>> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >>> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >>> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >>> which they have conducted themselves. >>> >>> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >>> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >>> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >>> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >>> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >>> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >>> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >>> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >>> compliant authorities and the police. >>> >>> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >>> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >>> >>> > *Press Note* >>> > >>> > *University Community, Delhi University* >>> > >>> > *6th November 2008* >>> > >>> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >>> > >>> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >>> > >>> > Dear media persons and journalists, >>> > >>> > * * >>> > >>> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >>> > Akhil >>> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >>> > in Delhi >>> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >>> > victims. >>> > >>> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >>> > teachers of >>> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >>> > and >>> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >>> > 22 Arts >>> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >>> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >>> > >>> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >>> > College, >>> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >>> > of the >>> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >>> > realised >>> > >>> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >>> > ABVP goondas >>> > >>> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >>> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >>> > Sharma (of >>> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >>> > this >>> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >>> > taken due >>> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >>> > >>> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >>> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >>> > who were >>> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >>> > who were >>> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >>> > of the >>> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >>> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >>> > the >>> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >>> > could >>> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >>> > did the >>> > University administration side with? ABVP. >>> > >>> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >>> > continuing >>> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >>> > meeting >>> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >>> > presence of >>> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >>> > permission, >>> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >>> > break >>> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >>> > Murdabad, >>> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >>> > particular >>> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >>> > meeting from >>> > concluding successfully. >>> > >>> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >>> > of ABVP >>> > *to >>> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >>> > Last >>> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >>> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >>> > who once >>> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >>> > to hold >>> > meetings and discussions. >>> > >>> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >>> > threat >>> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >>> > secular and >>> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >>> > and the >>> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >>> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >>> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >>> > fear. If we >>> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >>> > left to us >>> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >>> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >>> > and Delhi >>> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >>> > >>> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >>> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >>> > today's >>> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >>> > University, at >>> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >>> > >>> > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >>> > against ABVP >>> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >>> > Ratan, >>> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >>> > >>> > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >>> > goondaism and >>> > action against the people found guilty. * >>> > >>> > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >>> > similar >>> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >>> > >>> > University Community >>> > >>> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >>> > universitycommun...>> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >>> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> > @gmail.com* >>> > -- >>> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >>> > mdmahtaba...>> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >>> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> > @gmail.com >>> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 07:35:56 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 18:05:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi Message-ID: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>   Following points are to be noted:   ·         How did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on head? ·         If Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or Ramji. ·         Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete area. Can such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the area in detail? ·         Why isn’t a local person arrested yet? ·         How has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS is tracked so late? How? ·         The biggest doubt: Will a person who is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? Is Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn’t have to use her own bike?     Doubt on Talk between Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji   Indian Express   Date: 5th November 2008 Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness ‘heard’ Sadhvi discuss blast, killing   ‘The prosecution claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room in Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, who is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a 15-page statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon magistrate’s court on October 23.’……. Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by an ATS witness Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra? Ramji: Gujarat bolo Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed mein kyon nahi lagayi? Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge ·         Who is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it immediately become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists?   However, there is another version of media over the same thing   IBN Live            Date: 4th November 2008 Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it conspiracy Excerpts from the tape: Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. Ramnarayan Singh: Why? Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They’ve found my car in the Malegaon blast case. Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me when? Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don’t remember. Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why didn’t you park the car in a crowed area? Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn’t find a parking place there, and the area where I parked it wasn’t very crowded. Anyway, we’ll with it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he’ll gather at least lakh people and protest.   ·         So, the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room among Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped phone has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report that the taped voices are original or dubbed. ·         Now, there are questions to be raised here. According to the published conversation, Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not require any legal support. They talk of common people’s protest. ·         It appears from the media releases that she didn’t ask Ramji about why he didn’t park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three four days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows she is going to be arrested and before a third person. ·         Saadhvi has sold the bike, but she doesn’t know in which she sold it. And they are also so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also and casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell casually their bikes and do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time people loose the buyer’s information also. ·         Do you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able to commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or she is to be arrested? ·         Ramji has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man’s land and escapes. How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this.   If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it reveals some more important clues: ·         Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has always been targeted by anti-Hindus. It happens again here. ·         There is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people’s protest alone.     Bike’s number game   This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and who is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own bike. Some questions: ·         How many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own Vehicles to commit the crime? ·         Was Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that she planted her own bike as evidence? ·         Media says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be removed. Now there are two things: o        Either the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike belonged to anybody o        Or the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not all remove it. What is the meaning of attempt?   Why doesn’t the ATS release their investigation details of Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether the voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed?     Hindu leaders directly accounted   ·         There has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or Imams has been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested as Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an attack on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly on Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, Saadhvi is directly and suddenly arrested.   NCP attacks VHP office   ·         VHP’s name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP’s office targeted? ·         Why were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train blast? ·         Why do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don’t they investigate further to release the names of people who did it?   Difference between Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism   ·         Whenever a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents always contain texts of Quran and ‘In the name of Allah’. Yet our honorable media says it is plain Terrorism. ·         Whenever retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it as ‘Hindu Terror’. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu scriptures.   This is a clear indication that media is working against Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of Hindus is what media takes pride in shouting aloud.   The biggest concern   Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure that it doesn’t become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in Security Forces. We have reduction in people’s interest to join Security Forces. And we have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And any defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people’s interest to join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every step to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: ·         Either this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous enough so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in beating the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going in Crores. ·         Or the Government is not interested in securing the country   Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn’t the projection of media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? Why didn’t the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at least until complete investigation is over? Outcome of this Saadhvi case   ·         If Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or through facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror outfits which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, Pashwan and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other similar organizations which they keep on advocating. ·         If Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it will be a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely framing stories against them also. ·         The greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the media   There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country will have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress and anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete defeat of Hindus and of the nation.     Some interesting stories 2008 Malegaon Blast   The Hindu publishes:      Date: Oct 1, 2008 Subject: Nitric acid, nails used in Malegaon blast   …‘The bomb was kept on a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police chowk, 30 feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. Ansari is among those critically injured.’   Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – forget others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was planted, yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a possibility to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of Deepawali and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were more heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it could be that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in an exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but not the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would explode. Something fishy appears here itself.   2006 Blast   Inquilab, Mumbai publishes         Date: 11th September 2006   Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and had died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body was badly mutilated and the lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body of this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab’s correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked Aqeel Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said that post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body was autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should be noted that Aqeel said to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have the lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention to this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from where fake beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such information. However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched into the fake beard."   Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in the dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he realizes the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this person, hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he was saying was correct.   From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 08:10:30 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 08:10:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811061146u45961d50t32f5e4df8e496d50@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811061146u45961d50t32f5e4df8e496d50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811061840p290001efib3e52b6263261a56@mail.gmail.com> What if I call Prakash Ray - a bloody terrorist 'Yasin Malik' or for that matter 'Osama Bin Laden". ??? Wonder if you understand the difference between Political activity (discussion and debate) and propaganda and anti-Hindu bashing openly in a seminar. Its different, if you don't want to understand the difference. S.A.R. Geelani is worshipped as a national hero by AISA-SFI and by some self-styled 'intellectuals' here in this forum. No wonder this country in heading towards bad health with such poisonous elements around. Be a bit mature before your barking begins. This is no 'JNU Land' that you continue your tirade as per your wishes. We won't tolerate open support to terrorism. Do what you can.. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear all or atleast whom it may concern, > > Some fanatics think that they have only authority to speak, to do, to bark > and to bite. They have many names and faces: Bal Thakrey, Raj Thakrey, Babu > Bajrangi, Togadia, Aditya Raj....... > > I wonder if they know that the great grand father of the hindutva brigade > Mr Savarkar delivered his two most famous speeches in British universities > in 1906 and 1907 against the British Rule in India. I quote from the Report > of the Committee on the Working of Central Universities (appointed by the > UGC, 1983, p.44): > > "Political activity in the universities is natural because the university > is > a community of thinking people, of those who are exploring the frontiers of > knowledge and of those who criticize and evaluate every idea before > accepting it. Our democratic tradition, and now the Constitution, ensures > fundamental rights to all citizens, which include freedom of thought and > speech, and freedom of association. Teachers and a section of students are > not only voters but they can also be candidates in local, State or > Parliamentary elections. We, therefore, see nothing wrong in political > parties being active on the campuses of our universities. Presentation of > and debates about different ideologies and plans and perspective of > national > development are to be welcomed and political activity directed towards this > end would be wholesome for the growth of the universities." > > Nothing more to say... > > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 08:14:06 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 08:14:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= Message-ID: <6353c690811061844l605cfab4i3693a0c429e19460@mail.gmail.com> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker **Staff Reporter | New Delhi The Daily Pioneer Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html * *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take on ABVP 'goons'* Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — SAR Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts Faculty seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani was speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and letting others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me later for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He said that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy in India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," he said. About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of DU, participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" and "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working journalists and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the Students' Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, "Inquilab comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this fascism." Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, was not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a teacher from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a talk'. University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet Singh even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk in view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, however, went on. The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar room and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An activist even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 10:28:11 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?RFUgYWxsb3dzIOKAmHNlbWluYXLigJkgYmxhc3Rp?= =?utf-8?q?ng_Govt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= References: <6353c690811061844l605cfab4i3693a0c429e19460@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <761372.12498.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. But Hindus.. If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a terrorist... Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack and he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and greater freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' on their forehead... Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call yourself Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. ________________________________ From: Aditya Raj Kaul To: sarai list Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows ‘seminar’ blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker **Staff Reporter | New Delhi The Daily Pioneer Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html * *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take on ABVP 'goons'* Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — SAR Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts Faculty seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani was speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and letting others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me later for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He said that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy in India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," he said. About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of DU, participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" and "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working journalists and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the Students' Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, "Inquilab comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this fascism." Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, was not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a teacher from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a talk'. University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet Singh even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk in view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, however, went on. The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar room and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An activist even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:07:27 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:07:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi In-Reply-To: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms Is there any doubt left now? On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > Following points are to be noted: > > > > · > How > did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on head? > > · > If > Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or > Ramji. > > · > Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu > to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete area. Can > such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the area > in detail? > > · > Why > isn't a local person arrested yet? > > · > How > has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since > Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS is > tracked so late? How? > > · > The biggest doubt: Will a person who > is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? Is > Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to use > her own bike? > > > > > > Doubt on Talk between > Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji > > > > Indian Express Date: 5th > November 2008 > > Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness > 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing > > > > 'The prosecution > claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room in > Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, who > is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a 15-page > statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon magistrate's > court on October 23.'……. > > Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by > an ATS witness > > Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai > > Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi > > Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra? > > > Ramji: Gujarat bolo > > Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed mein > kyon nahi lagayi? > > Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri > Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge > > · > Who > is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that > three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am > the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it immediately > become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? > > > > However, there is another version of media over the same > thing > > > > IBN Live Date: > 4th November 2008 > > Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it > conspiracy > > Excerpts from the > tape: > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. > > Ramnarayan Singh: Why? > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. > > Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya > Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me > when? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why > didn't you park the car in a crowed area? > > Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a parking place > there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll with > it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll > gather at least lakh people and protest. > > > > · > So, > the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room among > Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned > conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped phone > has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report that > the taped voices are original or dubbed. > > · > Now, > there are questions to be raised here. According to the published conversation, > Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any > precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not > require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. > > · > It > appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he didn't > park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three four > days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows she is > going to be arrested and before a third person. > > · > Saadhvi > has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are also > so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also and > casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell casually their bikes and > do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not > interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time people > loose the buyer's information also. > > · > Do > you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able to > commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or she > is to be arrested? > > · > Ramji > has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a > parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and escapes. > How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. > > > > If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it > reveals some more important clues: > > · > Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has always been targeted by > anti-Hindus. It happens again here. > > · > There > is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. > > > > > > Bike's number game > > > > This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb > blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and who > is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own > bike. Some questions: > > · > How > many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of > Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own Vehicles > to commit the crime? > > · > Was > Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that she > planted her own bike as evidence? > > · > Media > says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be > removed. Now there are two things: > > o > Either > the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike belonged > to anybody > > o > Or > the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to > remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not all > remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? > > > > Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of > Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether the > voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? > > > > > > Hindu leaders directly > accounted > > > > · > There > has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or Imams has > been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested as > Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an attack > on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested > alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly on > Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, Saadhvi is > directly and suddenly arrested. > > > > NCP attacks VHP office > > > > · > VHP's > name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? > > · > Why > were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train > blast? > > · > Why > do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't they > investigate further to release the names of people who did it? > > > > Difference between > Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism > > > > · > Whenever > a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents always > contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media says > it is plain Terrorism. > > · > Whenever > retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it as > 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu > scriptures. > > > > This is a clear indication that media is working against > Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of Hindus > is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. > > > > The biggest concern > > > > Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken > for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure that > it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in Security > Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. And we > have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And any > defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest to > join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every step > to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: > > · > Either > this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous enough > so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in beating > the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going in > Crores. > > · > Or > the Government is not interested in securing the country > > > > Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of > media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? Why > didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at least > until complete investigation is over? > > Outcome of this > Saadhvi case > > > > · > If > Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or through > facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and > other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror outfits > which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, Pashwan > and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other similar > organizations which they keep on advocating. > > · > If > Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it will be > a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely framing > stories against them also. > > · > The > greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the media > > > > There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this > interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or > Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country will > have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the > population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress and > anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete defeat > of Hindus and of the nation. > > > > > > Some interesting > stories > > 2008 Malegaon Blast > > > > The Hindu publishes: Date: > Oct 1, 2008 > > Subject: Nitric > acid, nails used in Malegaon blast > > > > …'The bomb was kept on > a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah > Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a > hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police chowk, 30 > feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. Ansari > is among those critically injured.' > > > > Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike > was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – forget > others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was planted, > yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a possibility > to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of Deepawali > and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were more > heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it could be > that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in an > exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but not > the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would explode. > Something fishy appears here itself. > > > > 2006 Blast > > > > Inquilab, Mumbai publishes Date: > 11th September 2006 > > > > Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab > correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and had > died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body was badly mutilated and the > lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from > Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body of > this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's > correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked Aqeel > Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not > there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said that > post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body was > autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should be noted that Aqeel said > to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have the > lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention to > this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these > blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from where fake > beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such information. > However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched into > the fake beard." > > > > Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel > Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in the > dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he realizes > the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or > telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this person, > hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he was saying > was correct. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 11:10:41 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:40:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi References: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <648490.11806.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You have not read my article... I have shown concern on the role media and not on what is the outcome of this probe....   ________________________________ From: Javed To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:07:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi Dear Chanchal Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms Is there any doubt left now? On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > Following points are to be noted: > > > > · > How > did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on head? > > · > If > Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or > Ramji. > > · > Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu > to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete area. Can > such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the area > in detail? > > · > Why > isn't a local person arrested yet? > > · > How > has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since > Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS is > tracked so late? How? > > · > The biggest doubt: Will a person who > is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? Is > Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to use > her own bike? > > > > > > Doubt on Talk between > Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji > > > > Indian Express  Date: 5th >  November 2008 > > Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness > 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing > > > > 'The prosecution > claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room in > Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, who > is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a 15-page > statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon magistrate's > court on October 23.'……. > > Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by > an ATS witness > > Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai > > Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi > > Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra? > > > Ramji: Gujarat bolo > > Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed mein > kyon nahi lagayi? > > Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri > Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge > > · > Who > is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that > three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am > the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it immediately > become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? > > > > However, there is another version of media over the same > thing > > > > IBN Live            Date: > 4th November 2008 > > Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it > conspiracy > > Excerpts from the > tape: > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. > > Ramnarayan Singh: Why? > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. > > Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya > Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me > when? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why > didn't you park the car in a crowed area? > > Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a parking place > there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll with > it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll > gather at least lakh people and protest. > > > > · > So, > the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room among > Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned > conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped phone > has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report that > the taped voices are original or dubbed. > > · > Now, > there are questions to be raised here. According to the published conversation, > Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any > precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not > require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. > > · > It > appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he didn't > park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three four > days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows she is > going to be arrested and before a third person. > > · > Saadhvi > has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are also > so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also and > casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell casually their bikes and > do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not > interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time people > loose the buyer's information also. > > · > Do > you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able to > commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or she > is to be arrested? > > · > Ramji > has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a > parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and escapes. > How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. > > > > If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it > reveals some more important clues: > > · > Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has always been targeted by > anti-Hindus. It happens again here. > > · > There > is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. > > > > > > Bike's number game > > > > This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb > blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and who > is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own > bike. Some questions: > > · > How > many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of > Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own Vehicles > to commit the crime? > > · > Was > Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that she > planted her own bike as evidence? > > · > Media > says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be > removed. Now there are two things: > > o > Either > the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike belonged > to anybody > > o > Or > the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to > remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not all > remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? > > > > Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of > Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether the > voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? > > > > > > Hindu leaders directly > accounted > > > > · > There > has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or Imams has > been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested as > Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an attack > on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested > alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly on > Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, Saadhvi is > directly and suddenly arrested. > > > > NCP attacks VHP office > > > > · > VHP's > name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? > > · > Why > were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train > blast? > > · > Why > do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't they > investigate further to release the names of people who did it? > > > > Difference between > Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism > > > > · > Whenever > a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents always > contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media says > it is plain Terrorism. > > · > Whenever > retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it as > 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu > scriptures. > > > > This is a clear indication that media is working against > Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of Hindus > is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. > > > > The biggest concern > > > > Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken > for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure that > it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in Security > Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. And we > have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And any > defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest to > join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every step > to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: > > · > Either > this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous enough > so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in beating > the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going in > Crores. > > · > Or > the Government is not interested in securing the country > > > > Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of > media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? Why > didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at least > until complete investigation is over? > > Outcome of this > Saadhvi case > > > > · > If > Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or through > facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and > other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror outfits > which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, Pashwan > and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other similar > organizations which they keep on advocating. > > · > If > Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it will be > a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely framing > stories against them also. > > · > The > greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the media > > > > There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this > interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or > Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country will > have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the > population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress and > anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete defeat > of Hindus and of the nation. > > > > > > Some interesting > stories > > 2008 Malegaon Blast > > > > The Hindu publishes:      Date: > Oct 1, 2008 > > Subject: Nitric > acid, nails used in Malegaon blast > > > > …'The bomb was kept on > a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah > Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a > hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police chowk, 30 > feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. Ansari > is among those critically injured.' > > > > Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike > was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – forget > others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was planted, > yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a possibility > to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of Deepawali > and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were more > heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it could be > that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in an > exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but not > the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would explode. > Something fishy appears here itself. > > > > 2006 Blast > > > > Inquilab, Mumbai publishes        Date: > 11th September 2006 > > > > Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab > correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and had > died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body was badly mutilated and the > lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from > Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body of > this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's > correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked Aqeel > Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not > there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said that > post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body was > autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should be noted that Aqeel said > to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have the > lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention to > this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these > blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from where fake > beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such information. > However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched into > the fake beard." > > > > Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel > Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in the > dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he realizes > the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or > telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this person, > hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he was saying > was correct. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 11:23:35 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:53:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi References: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <160952.71677.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You have quoted the news... but you have again not analyzed the news.... Here is something from the same TOI news (TOI news in bold): 'However, the confessional statement given to the police is not admissible in court. ' Why? It can be made public but it cannot be admitted to court. Strange. I am the mastermind of the blast. I arranged for the RDX and weapons but I can't understand how the weapons reached Abhinav Bharat members Ah, so why was Pragya again taken for Narco... what about the SMS that was highlighted by media... What shall we believe? Purohit says he is the mastermind - we shall believe. Purohit says he do not understand the link of Abhinav Bharat - why shall we not believe? While no anti-terrorism squad (ATS) officer was willing to comment on the reported confession, ATS spokesperson Dinesh Agrawala said for the record, "It's not correct." Why is the media tom-tomming then. I am seeing a clear picture here. Col Purohit is not only a patriot, but now he seems to be a patriot of highest order. He wants to save the nation again. And seeing the conspiracy he might be taking all the charges on himself, even though he may not be a guilt. GOD knows what is the truth. This media of our country is so dirty that we are lost. My stand is that, we should not believe on any news that is coming through these channels and current biased media. We have to wait for what ends some two to three years from now. I am sure, that no Hindu leader, be that be Saadhvi, will take such a silly step. Hindus are known to fight on the face. Not like the terrorist bombing the innocents and unkown crowd. If Godse has shot Mahatma, he did it on the face. He could have bombed too. If Bhagat Singh had bombed the court, he did it on the face. Hinduism has never taught one to be a coward like the terrorists. And a learned Hindu can never commit such crime and mistake. However, events have taken place. And media is surely playing a dirty role in maligning Army and Hindus. I don't know, if these media people will go to the border and protect our land. They could not wait for the results of the probe and simple arrests are highlighted that Army also is dented. Sad. ________________________________ From: Javed To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:07:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi Dear Chanchal Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms Is there any doubt left now? On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > Following points are to be noted: > > > > · > How > did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on head? > > · > If > Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or > Ramji. > > · > Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu > to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete area. Can > such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the area > in detail? > > · > Why > isn't a local person arrested yet? > > · > How > has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since > Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS is > tracked so late? How? > > · > The biggest doubt: Will a person who > is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? Is > Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to use > her own bike? > > > > > > Doubt on Talk between > Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji > > > > Indian Express  Date: 5th >  November 2008 > > Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness > 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing > > > > 'The prosecution > claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room in > Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, who > is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a 15-page > statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon magistrate's > court on October 23.'……. > > Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by > an ATS witness > > Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai > > Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi > > Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra? > > > Ramji: Gujarat bolo > > Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed mein > kyon nahi lagayi? > > Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri > Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge > > · > Who > is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that > three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am > the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it immediately > become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? > > > > However, there is another version of media over the same > thing > > > > IBN Live            Date: > 4th November 2008 > > Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it > conspiracy > > Excerpts from the > tape: > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. > > Ramnarayan Singh: Why? > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. > > Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya > Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me > when? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why > didn't you park the car in a crowed area? > > Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a parking place > there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll with > it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll > gather at least lakh people and protest. > > > > · > So, > the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room among > Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned > conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped phone > has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report that > the taped voices are original or dubbed. > > · > Now, > there are questions to be raised here. According to the published conversation, > Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any > precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not > require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. > > · > It > appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he didn't > park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three four > days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows she is > going to be arrested and before a third person. > > · > Saadhvi > has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are also > so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also and > casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell casually their bikes and > do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not > interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time people > loose the buyer's information also. > > · > Do > you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able to > commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or she > is to be arrested? > > · > Ramji > has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a > parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and escapes. > How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. > > > > If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it > reveals some more important clues: > > · > Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has always been targeted by > anti-Hindus. It happens again here. > > · > There > is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. > > > > > > Bike's number game > > > > This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb > blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and who > is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own > bike. Some questions: > > · > How > many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of > Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own Vehicles > to commit the crime? > > · > Was > Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that she > planted her own bike as evidence? > > · > Media > says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be > removed. Now there are two things: > > o > Either > the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike belonged > to anybody > > o > Or > the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to > remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not all > remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? > > > > Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of > Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether the > voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? > > > > > > Hindu leaders directly > accounted > > > > · > There > has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or Imams has > been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested as > Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an attack > on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested > alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly on > Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, Saadhvi is > directly and suddenly arrested. > > > > NCP attacks VHP office > > > > · > VHP's > name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? > > · > Why > were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train > blast? > > · > Why > do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't they > investigate further to release the names of people who did it? > > > > Difference between > Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism > > > > · > Whenever > a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents always > contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media says > it is plain Terrorism. > > · > Whenever > retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it as > 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu > scriptures. > > > > This is a clear indication that media is working against > Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of Hindus > is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. > > > > The biggest concern > > > > Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken > for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure that > it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in Security > Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. And we > have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And any > defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest to > join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every step > to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: > > · > Either > this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous enough > so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in beating > the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going in > Crores. > > · > Or > the Government is not interested in securing the country > > > > Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of > media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? Why > didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at least > until complete investigation is over? > > Outcome of this > Saadhvi case > > > > · > If > Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or through > facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and > other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror outfits > which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, Pashwan > and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other similar > organizations which they keep on advocating. > > · > If > Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it will be > a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely framing > stories against them also. > > · > The > greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the media > > > > There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this > interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or > Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country will > have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the > population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress and > anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete defeat > of Hindus and of the nation. > > > > > > Some interesting > stories > > 2008 Malegaon Blast > > > > The Hindu publishes:      Date: > Oct 1, 2008 > > Subject: Nitric > acid, nails used in Malegaon blast > > > > …'The bomb was kept on > a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah > Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a > hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police chowk, 30 > feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. Ansari > is among those critically injured.' > > > > Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike > was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – forget > others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was planted, > yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a possibility > to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of Deepawali > and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were more > heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it could be > that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in an > exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but not > the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would explode. > Something fishy appears here itself. > > > > 2006 Blast > > > > Inquilab, Mumbai publishes        Date: > 11th September 2006 > > > > Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab > correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and had > died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body was badly mutilated and the > lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from > Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body of > this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's > correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked Aqeel > Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not > there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said that > post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body was > autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should be noted that Aqeel said > to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have the > lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention to > this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these > blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from where fake > beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such information. > However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched into > the fake beard." > > > > Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel > Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in the > dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he realizes > the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or > telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this person, > hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he was saying > was correct. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:24:55 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:24:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] for S.A.R.Geelani Message-ID: Dear Aditya and other Have you lost confidence in Indian Supreme Court which acquitted S.A.R.Geelani as no substantial proof could be found against him in the Parliament attack case. He is an ordinary citizen, a peace-loving professor in DU. If he was proven guilty, why would he be invited to a seminar. Look at some these reports. The first one is self explenatory: ===== "Ram Jethmalani's submission on behalf of the appellant – Abdul Rahman Geelani This is a case of no evidence. The law of evidence has been treated as non existent. The provisions of the Code of Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act have been flagrantly violated. Serious objections remain undisposed of. The accused did not know what case they had to meet. Out of the 25 pieces of evidence marshaled by the counsel for the State against appellant Geelani, half are innocuous and exculpatory. The remaining are not legal evidence. The conviction proceeds on a total misunderstanding of the law and concept of conspiracy. The Trial Court never adverted to it nor did it hold the ingredients proved. The cognizance of the various offences charged has been taken without the sanctions required by Sec. 196 of the Code of Criminal Procedure or Section 5 of POTA or Section 7 of the Explosive Substances Act. The purported sanctions are ex facie invalid, given by authorities, which had no power to grant them, and the evidence discloses total non application of mind and an unforgivable frivolity of attitude when the law enjoins careful and serious analysis and appraisal of evidence before granting the sanctions. The purported sanctions are void and the trial totally without jurisdiction and a nullity. That the investigation is riddled with illegality. The evidence discloses concoction and fabrication. All these have been grossed one and have resulted in a grave miscarriage of justice. That the charges framed are illegal. Particulars required by law are missing. Some charges are so ridiculous that the proceedings are deprived of the solemnity of a serious criminal trial. It is regrettable that neither the Public Prosecutor nor the Presiding Judge have displayed due performance of their respective roles. All the charges of offence under Chapter VI of the Indian Penal Code are bad in law. Terrorists cannot be exalted to the status of warriors. The two are inconsistent concepts 'war' and 'waging war' are totally misunderstood. Convictions and sentences are totally illegal. That the most vital safeguard for the accused is Section 313 of the Code. The questions put to the accused are impermissible cross-examination. Circumstances which ought to have been put to the accused were never put to him for his explanation and if necessary cross-examination of witnesses and leading of defence evidence. Instead non-existing circumstances were put to him. The court had no grip over the case and the Public Prosecutor failed to provide fair assistance expected of a quasi-judicial officer. Questions were so framed that the accused could not reasonably be expected to understand their import and significance. This has vitiated the trial. Principles of natural justice have been thrown to the winds resulting in miscarriage of justice. The Court below has not considered scores of exculpatory circumstances which apart from negativing guilt positively established innocence. A catalogue of these will be presented to this Hon'ble Court in due course. That in capital cases particularly those that arouse public prejudice and anger against the accused making it difficult for them to arrange for their own defence, it was the duty of the Court to provide adequate defence at State expense. This duty was not performed and the record discloses that the accused never got proper and adequate legal assistance. The Court instead appointed an 'amicus'. This is not known to our law and practice. His presence and participation have caused confusion and prejudice vitiating the trial. That the appreciation of evidence particularly defence evidence is totally wrong and prejudiced. The findings of fact recorded are wrong and perverse. That the sentences passed are illegal and unjustified. The prayer for enhancement is grossly unfair and betrays animus of the prosecuting agencies. A Court of reasonable competence and freedom from all bias – or suspicion of bias – is the requirement of Article 21. The howlers including callous and gross carelessness, the irregularities, the illegalities at every state and exhibitions of prejudice and hostility against the accused at every step place the trial court and its conduct of the trial far below the standards required by Article 21. This whole trial is unconstitutional, illegal and void. Nothing of it can survive. ============ A Letter from Noam Chomsky: Convenor, Delhi University Teachers in Defence of S.A.R. Gilani Delhi University. I read with much concern the statement of the Delhi University Teachers in Defence of S.A.R. Gilani. What it describes is utterly outrageous, and surely should not be tolerated. The phrase 'absurd and tragic' is fully warranted. The atrocities of 9-11 were exploited in a vulgar way by governments all over the world, in some cases by escalating massive crimes on the pretext of 'combating terrorism,' in others by implementing repressive legislation to discipline their own citizens with no credible connection to preventing terrorist threats, in some cases by carrying out programmes that had not the remotest connection to terrorism and might even enhance it and that were opposed by the majority of the population. Terrorism is a serious matter, and merits careful attention and scrupulous preventive measures and response. It is disgraceful for the authentic threat of terrorism to be exploited as a window of opportunity for intolerable actions. I hope and trust that Indian democracy and its legal system will rise to the challenge, reverse this decision, and ensure that human and civil rights are properly protected. Noam Chomsky ================ SAR Geelani: questions galore By AP Muhammed Afsal The Milli Gazette Online An honourably acquitted accused in the sensational Parliament attack case, SAR Geelani is still fighting for justice in the thick of deafening silence of the Indian political establishment. He is recovering from the bullet injuries he suffered on February 8 at the hands of an unidentified assailant. Except some human rights activists, nobody has come to the fore to voice concern over the incident. Neither leaders of the ruling coalition nor the supporting secular brigade did utter a word that matters. On their part, BJP criticised those who spoke for Geelani and their spokesman, The Pioneer, unashamedly continued to find fault with Geelani. Home Minister Shivraj Patil continues to refuse to hand over the case to CBI from the Delhi Police. So far, instead of inquiring into the role of its own Special Cell, which Geelani suspects to be behind the attack, Delhi Police is still busy floating theories to confuse the media and public. According to reports, the matter did come up before the prime minister. Still 'nobody' knows who is behind the attack while media trial continues. Geelani is an Arabic scholar and the first Kashmiri Muslim to get a permanent teaching job in Delhi University. During the college days he was a human rights activist and a member of Jammu & Kashmir Council for Human Rights. He had expressed his views at various public forums. His views on Kashmir are not the one that are commonly held. He came to Delhi to complete his studies and stayed on after getting a job in Zakir Hussain College. The bitter experience he had as a detainee in Tihar jail after his arrest in Parliament attack case prompted him to float an organisation, "Society for Protection of Detainees and Prisoners' Right." When Delhi Police arrested him on December 15, 2001,the only piece of evidence of his involvement in the Parliament attack case was a two minute 16 second telephone conversation he had with his younger brother while travelling in a bus from his home to the nearby mosque for Friday prayer on December 14. Eighteen-year old Shah Faisal was asking Geelani to send him a prospectus and syllabus. Faisal had called the previous evening also and was now reminding him. He could not have guessed that this brief call would be produced as the main evidence against his brother. When Faisal asked Geelani "what had happened," he was innocently referring to Geelani's decision not to go to Kashmir for Eid since there were very few holidays and it would cost too much. Geelani's wife was insisting on going home. The elder brother would not answer, laughing away the query. Policemen of the Special Branch who were tapping his mobile phone felt that the laugh showed Geelani's complicity in the conspiracy to attack the Parliament. The police were never able to explain why they had not arrested the younger brother; after all, if he asked the question he must have knowledge of the conspiracy. The police officer in charge of the investigation testified in court that Faisal was innocent. The police also never explained why they never put a transcript of the telephone conversation on record. Geelani produced two independent witnesses who put the transcript of the taped conversation on record and testified that the conversation could not be remotely linked to the conspiracy to attack the Parliament. The trial court judge held that the two independent defence witnesses were in fact "interested witnesses." He did not explain how a trade union leader and a documentary film maker, both Kashmiri Pandits, who appeared in court at the request of senior civil liberties activists known for their integrity could be called "interested." The Judge stated in his order that he himself had taken lessons in the Kashmiri language and was thus competent to decide on the truth of the police version. Geelani was condemned to death on the basis of this flimsy evidence on December 18, 2002. The specially constituted POTA court for hearing the cases finished the trial procedure and judgment in record time. Geelani spent one year on death row before being acquitted by the High Court on October 29, 2003. The police have since filed an appeal in the Supreme Court and are hoping to get Geelani back in his cell in Tihar jail. They have given public statements expressing the hope that he will be hanged. >From the time of his arrest, media had parroted the investigating agencies' version designed to portray Geelani as the mastermind of the conspiracy and unnecessarily doubted the credentials of those who formed the defence committee for his fair trial. Even conservative dailies carried tabloid-style headings and sensational 'confessions' by Geelani. The Delhi High Court, when delivering judgment acquitting Geelani had noted the arguments of the Defence Counsel that media trials are an antithesis to the rule of law and pre-trial publicity is sufficient to cause prejudice and hatred against the accused, but it did not pass any strictures against the police for using the media to mobilize hatred and prejudice, though it is a specific crime under the Indian Penal Code. Geelani's life has never been easy even after his acquittal. When he resumed his work after acquittal, he found it difficult to get even an auto rikshaw to go back home. "The danger is not over and I fear for my life. Attempts were made on my life. While I was in prison, even though I was kept in a high security cell, they (Police) ried to kill me," Geelani had said in his first ever media interaction on October 30, 2003. The attacks continued. "His masters across the border must have been delighted to see TV pictures of some demented Indian citizens dancing in joy on hearing the news of his acquittal. No wonder Pakistani soldiers are repeatedly told by their commanders that Indians have no stomach for a fight, that as a people Indians are pot-bellied, indolent and seeped in a pacific Hindu culture…," Chandan Mitra of The Pioneer wrote in an article titled "Go home, Geelani and Friends," on November 2, 2004. Geelani was forced to buy a car as he felt several intelligence agencies were keeping a watch over him. Not alone he, whomsoever was in touch with him or met him even once was subjected to intimidation and questioning by security agencies. This time, too, a careful perusal of news stories after the attacks on Geelani will reveal the high stakes involved in the case, an activist working with Geelani Defence Committee told MG. These were obviously aimed at both intimidating Geelani's friends and as part of a PR exercise. On February 11, The Pioneer, the only daily supporting the police blatantly from day one, carried a N-E angle story on Geelani's attack suggesting the involvement of a North East militant group! The newspaper even referred to the possible involvement of Sebastian Hongray, husband of lawyer Nandita Haksar, and the very man who took the injured Geelani to the AIIMS hospital. After describing his full name as "Sebastian San Muviah Hongray", the daily went into his background as Thankul Naga and an activist of Nationalist Council of Nagaland (Issac Muviah)!. A day later the paper wrote that Police was also watching Mr Sebastian's movements. According to the police, Geelani should have fallen on the spot, rather than staggering over 60 yards to the doorstep of Haksar family. Police could not find the empty cartridges during the preliminary search. But at 2 am, the five emptied cartridges were "found at a distance" by the crime branch. Police has again come up with a stunning revelation on the fourth day of attack that they found the blood-stained sweater which Geelani was wearing when he was shot. Police carefully uses the phraseology like "seized". The word suggests that his family was trying to hide evidence. The sweater was there in AIIMS for a full day before Geelani's relatives took it away. The police has not explained why they took four days to even start looking for the clothes. Soon after Haksar expressed her doubts over the police involvement, police tried to indirectly threaten her saying that they could file cases against her and her husband for tampering withevidence. And one of the reasons for police to ask AIIMS authorities to set up a two-member committee was that Police was wary of Dr Anup Saraya, a gastroenterologist with AIIMS. The paper went on to say without citing any source, that Nandita Haksar had called the doctor even before informing the Police after Geelani was shot at. Even after his acquittal, intelligence agencies believe Geelani is the mastermind of the Parliament attack. While Geelani was accused and also when he was acquitted, the BJP was in power. People had reason to believe that the government had found in him a perfect candidate for being a Kashmiri, a Muslim and an Arabic teacher. With the UPA 'secular' government in power, many liberal minds think that rogue elements in the Special Cell of the Delhi police or security agencies cannot take law in their own hands. Speaking to MG, Nandita Haksar said, "It is not a problem with Vajpayee or Manmohan Singh. When Geelani was in jail, authorities allowed hate mail to reach him but they did not allow him to offer Namaz. He was allowed only one Iftar. There is no evidence to show that it all changed, so there is no use talking about cahnge of guard." Moreover, government proudly proclaims that there should be a continuation of policies vis-a-vis 'security' which has become a holy cow which can be used to justify excesses of any kind. http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv9n2/geelani.htm From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:28:13 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:28:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi In-Reply-To: <160952.71677.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <160952.71677.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal I read your detailed analysis of the news, and I appreciate your concerns. The problem is that the same concerns and doubts can be applied to other accused people and so-called "Islamic terrorists" who have been arrested earlier. The police and media is always blamed for making up the story whether this way or that. So, where do we go from here. God only knows what is the truth. J On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > You have quoted the news... but you have again not analyzed the news.... > > Here is something from the same TOI news (TOI news in bold): > > 'However, the confessional statement given to the police is not admissible > in court. ' > > Why? It can be made public but it cannot be admitted to court. Strange. > > I am the mastermind of the blast. I arranged for the RDX and weapons but I > can't understand how the weapons reached Abhinav Bharat members > > Ah, so why was Pragya again taken for Narco... what about the SMS that was > highlighted by media... > > What shall we believe? Purohit says he is the mastermind - we shall believe. > Purohit says he do not understand the link of Abhinav Bharat - why shall we > not believe? > > While no anti-terrorism squad (ATS) officer was willing to comment on the > reported confession, ATS spokesperson Dinesh Agrawala said for the record, > "It's not correct." > Why is the media tom-tomming then. > > I am seeing a clear picture here. Col Purohit is not only a patriot, but now > he seems to be a patriot of highest order. He wants to save the nation > again. And seeing the conspiracy he might be taking all the charges on > himself, even though he may not be a guilt. GOD knows what is the truth. > This media of our country is so dirty that we are lost. > > My stand is that, we should not believe on any news that is coming through > these channels and current biased media. We have to wait for what ends some > two to three years from now. > > I am sure, that no Hindu leader, be that be Saadhvi, will take such a silly > step. Hindus are known to fight on the face. Not like the terrorist bombing > the innocents and unkown crowd. If Godse has shot Mahatma, he did it on the > face. He could have bombed too. If Bhagat Singh had bombed the court, he did > it on the face. Hinduism has never taught one to be a coward like the > terrorists. And a learned Hindu can never commit such crime and mistake. > > However, events have taken place. And media is surely playing a dirty role > in maligning Army and Hindus. I don't know, if these media people will go to > the border and protect our land. They could not wait for the results of the > probe and simple arrests are highlighted that Army also is dented. Sad. > > > ________________________________ > From: Javed > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:07:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi > > Dear Chanchal > Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms > > Is there any doubt left now? > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Following points are to be noted: >> >> >> >> · >> How >> did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on >> head? >> >> · >> If >> Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? >> Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or >> Ramji. >> >> · >> Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu >> to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete >> area. Can >> such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the >> area >> in detail? >> >> · >> Why >> isn't a local person arrested yet? >> >> · >> How >> has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since >> Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS >> is >> tracked so late? How? >> >> · >> The biggest doubt: Will a person who >> is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? >> Is >> Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to >> use >> her own bike? >> >> >> >> >> >> Doubt on Talk between >> Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji >> >> >> >> Indian Express Date: 5th >> November 2008 >> >> Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness >> 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing >> >> >> >> 'The prosecution >> claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room >> in >> Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, >> who >> is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a >> 15-page >> statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon >> magistrate's >> court on October 23.'……. >> >> Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by >> an ATS witness >> >> Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai >> >> Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi >> >> Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, >> Gujarat, Maharashtra? >> >> >> Ramji: Gujarat bolo >> >> Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed >> mein >> kyon nahi lagayi? >> >> Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri >> Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge >> >> · >> Who >> is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that >> three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am >> the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it >> immediately >> become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? >> >> >> >> However, there is another version of media over the same >> thing >> >> >> >> IBN Live Date: >> 4th November 2008 >> >> Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it >> conspiracy >> >> Excerpts from the >> tape: >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: Why? >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya >> Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me >> when? >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why >> didn't you park the car in a crowed area? >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a >> parking place >> there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll >> with >> it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll >> gather at least lakh people and protest. >> >> >> >> · >> So, >> the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room >> among >> Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned >> conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped >> phone >> has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report >> that >> the taped voices are original or dubbed. >> >> · >> Now, >> there are questions to be raised here. According to the published >> conversation, >> Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any >> precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not >> require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. >> >> · >> It >> appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he >> didn't >> park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three >> four >> days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows >> she is >> going to be arrested and before a third person. >> >> · >> Saadhvi >> has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are >> also >> so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also >> and >> casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell >> casually their bikes and >> do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not >> interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time >> people >> loose the buyer's information also. >> >> · >> Do >> you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able >> to >> commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or >> she >> is to be arrested? >> >> · >> Ramji >> has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a >> parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and >> escapes. >> How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. >> >> >> >> If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it >> reveals some more important clues: >> >> · >> Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has >> always been targeted by >> anti-Hindus. It happens again here. >> >> · >> There >> is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bike's number game >> >> >> >> This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb >> blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and >> who >> is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own >> bike. Some questions: >> >> · >> How >> many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of >> Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own >> Vehicles >> to commit the crime? >> >> · >> Was >> Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that >> she >> planted her own bike as evidence? >> >> · >> Media >> says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be >> removed. Now there are two things: >> >> o >> Either >> the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike >> belonged >> to anybody >> >> o >> Or >> the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to >> remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not >> all >> remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? >> >> >> >> Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of >> Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether >> the >> voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? >> >> >> >> >> >> Hindu leaders directly >> accounted >> >> >> >> · >> There >> has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or >> Imams has >> been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested >> as >> Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an >> attack >> on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested >> alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly >> on >> Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, >> Saadhvi is >> directly and suddenly arrested. >> >> >> >> NCP attacks VHP office >> >> >> >> · >> VHP's >> name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? >> >> · >> Why >> were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in >> Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train >> blast? >> >> · >> Why >> do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't >> they >> investigate further to release the names of people who did it? >> >> >> >> Difference between >> Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism >> >> >> >> · >> Whenever >> a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents >> always >> contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media >> says >> it is plain Terrorism. >> >> · >> Whenever >> retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it >> as >> 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu >> scriptures. >> >> >> >> This is a clear indication that media is working against >> Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of >> Hindus >> is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. >> >> >> >> The biggest concern >> >> >> >> Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken >> for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure >> that >> it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in >> Security >> Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. >> And we >> have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And >> any >> defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest >> to >> join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every >> step >> to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: >> >> · >> Either >> this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous >> enough >> so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in >> beating >> the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going >> in >> Crores. >> >> · >> Or >> the Government is not interested in securing the country >> >> >> >> Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of >> media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? >> Why >> didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at >> least >> until complete investigation is over? >> >> Outcome of this >> Saadhvi case >> >> >> >> · >> If >> Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or >> through >> facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and >> other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror >> outfits >> which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, >> Pashwan >> and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other >> similar >> organizations which they keep on advocating. >> >> · >> If >> Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it >> will be >> a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely >> framing >> stories against them also. >> >> · >> The >> greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the >> media >> >> >> >> There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this >> interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or >> Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country >> will >> have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the >> population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress >> and >> anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete >> defeat >> of Hindus and of the nation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Some interesting >> stories >> >> 2008 Malegaon Blast >> >> >> >> The Hindu publishes: Date: >> Oct 1, 2008 >> >> Subject: Nitric >> acid, nails used in Malegaon blast >> >> >> >> …'The bomb was kept on >> a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah >> Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a >> hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police >> chowk, 30 >> feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. >> Ansari >> is among those critically injured.' >> >> >> >> Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike >> was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – >> forget >> others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was >> planted, >> yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a >> possibility >> to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of >> Deepawali >> and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were >> more >> heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it >> could be >> that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in >> an >> exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but >> not >> the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would >> explode. >> Something fishy appears here itself. >> >> >> >> 2006 Blast >> >> >> >> Inquilab, Mumbai publishes Date: >> 11th September 2006 >> >> >> >> Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab >> correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and >> had >> died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body >> was badly mutilated and the >> lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from >> Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body >> of >> this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's >> correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked >> Aqeel >> Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not >> there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said >> that >> post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body >> was >> autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should >> be noted that Aqeel said >> to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have >> the >> lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention >> to >> this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these >> blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from >> where fake >> beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such >> information. >> However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched >> into >> the fake beard." >> >> >> >> Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel >> Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in >> the >> dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he >> realizes >> the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or >> telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this >> person, >> hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he >> was saying >> was correct. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 11:30:13 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:00:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi References: <781981.52013.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <160952.71677.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479803.90573.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I know Javed.... that is one of the outcome of this conspiracy.. Please read again... I have already told what you have said... ________________________________ From: Javed To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:28:13 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi Dear Chanchal I read your detailed analysis of the news, and I appreciate your concerns. The problem is that the same concerns and doubts can be applied to other accused people and so-called "Islamic terrorists" who have been arrested earlier. The police and media is always blamed for making up the story whether this way or that. So, where do we go from here. God only knows what is the truth. J On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > You have quoted the news... but you have again not analyzed the news.... > > Here is something from the same TOI news (TOI news in bold): > > 'However, the confessional statement given to the police is not admissible > in court. ' > > Why? It can be made public but it cannot be admitted to court. Strange. > > I am the mastermind of the blast. I arranged for the RDX and weapons but I > can't understand how the weapons reached Abhinav Bharat members > > Ah, so why was Pragya again taken for Narco... what about the SMS that was > highlighted by media... > > What shall we believe? Purohit says he is the mastermind - we shall believe. > Purohit says he do not understand the link of Abhinav Bharat - why shall we > not believe? > > While no anti-terrorism squad (ATS) officer was willing to comment on the > reported confession, ATS spokesperson Dinesh Agrawala said for the record, > "It's not correct." > Why is the media tom-tomming then. > > I am seeing a clear picture here. Col Purohit is not only a patriot, but now > he seems to be a patriot of highest order. He wants to save the nation > again. And seeing the conspiracy he might be taking all the charges on > himself, even though he may not be a guilt. GOD knows what is the truth. > This media of our country is so dirty that we are lost. > > My stand is that, we should not believe on any news that is coming through > these channels and current biased media. We have to wait for what ends some > two to three years from now. > > I am sure, that no Hindu leader, be that be Saadhvi, will take such a silly > step. Hindus are known to fight on the face. Not like the terrorist bombing > the innocents and unkown crowd. If Godse has shot Mahatma, he did it on the > face. He could have bombed too. If Bhagat Singh had bombed the court, he did > it on the face. Hinduism has never taught one to be a coward like the > terrorists. And a learned Hindu can never commit such crime and mistake. > > However, events have taken place. And media is surely playing a dirty role > in maligning Army and Hindus. I don't know, if these media people will go to > the border and protect our land. They could not wait for the results of the > probe and simple arrests are highlighted that Army also is dented. Sad. > > > ________________________________ > From: Javed > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:07:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi > > Dear Chanchal > Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms > > Is there any doubt left now? > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Following points are to be noted: >> >> >> >> · >> How >> did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on >> head? >> >> · >> If >> Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? >> Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or >> Ramji. >> >> · >> Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu >> to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete >> area. Can >> such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the >> area >> in detail? >> >> · >> Why >> isn't a local person arrested yet? >> >> · >> How >> has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since >> Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS >> is >> tracked so late? How? >> >> · >> The biggest doubt: Will a person who >> is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? >> Is >> Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to >> use >> her own bike? >> >> >> >> >> >> Doubt on Talk between >> Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji >> >> >> >> Indian Express  Date: 5th >>  November 2008 >> >> Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness >> 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing >> >> >> >> 'The prosecution >> claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room >> in >> Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, >> who >> is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a >> 15-page >> statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon >> magistrate's >> court on October 23.'……. >> >> Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by >> an ATS witness >> >> Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai >> >> Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi >> >> Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, >> Gujarat, Maharashtra? >> >> >> Ramji: Gujarat bolo >> >> Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed >> mein >> kyon nahi lagayi? >> >> Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri >> Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge >> >> · >> Who >> is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that >> three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am >> the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it >> immediately >> become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? >> >> >> >> However, there is another version of media over the same >> thing >> >> >> >> IBN Live            Date: >> 4th November 2008 >> >> Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it >> conspiracy >> >> Excerpts from the >> tape: >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: Why? >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya >> Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me >> when? >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. >> >> Sadhvi Pragya Singh >> Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why >> didn't you park the car in a crowed area? >> >> Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a >> parking place >> there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll >> with >> it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll >> gather at least lakh people and protest. >> >> >> >> · >> So, >> the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room >> among >> Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned >> conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped >> phone >> has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report >> that >> the taped voices are original or dubbed. >> >> · >> Now, >> there are questions to be raised here. According to the published >> conversation, >> Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any >> precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not >> require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. >> >> · >> It >> appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he >> didn't >> park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three >> four >> days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows >> she is >> going to be arrested and before a third person. >> >> · >> Saadhvi >> has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are >> also >> so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also >> and >> casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell >> casually their bikes and >> do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not >> interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time >> people >> loose the buyer's information also. >> >> · >> Do >> you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able >> to >> commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or >> she >> is to be arrested? >> >> · >> Ramji >> has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a >> parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and >> escapes. >> How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. >> >> >> >> If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it >> reveals some more important clues: >> >> · >> Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has >> always been targeted by >> anti-Hindus. It happens again here. >> >> · >> There >> is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bike's number game >> >> >> >> This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb >> blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and >> who >> is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own >> bike. Some questions: >> >> · >> How >> many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of >> Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own >> Vehicles >> to commit the crime? >> >> · >> Was >> Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that >> she >> planted her own bike as evidence? >> >> · >> Media >> says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be >> removed. Now there are two things: >> >> o >> Either >> the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike >> belonged >> to anybody >> >> o >> Or >> the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to >> remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not >> all >> remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? >> >> >> >> Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of >> Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether >> the >> voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? >> >> >> >> >> >> Hindu leaders directly >> accounted >> >> >> >> · >> There >> has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or >> Imams has >> been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested >> as >> Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an >> attack >> on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested >> alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly >> on >> Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, >> Saadhvi is >> directly and suddenly arrested. >> >> >> >> NCP attacks VHP office >> >> >> >> · >> VHP's >> name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? >> >> · >> Why >> were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in >> Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train >> blast? >> >> · >> Why >> do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't >> they >> investigate further to release the names of people who did it? >> >> >> >> Difference between >> Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism >> >> >> >> · >> Whenever >> a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents >> always >> contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media >> says >> it is plain Terrorism. >> >> · >> Whenever >> retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it >> as >> 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu >> scriptures. >> >> >> >> This is a clear indication that media is working against >> Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of >> Hindus >> is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. >> >> >> >> The biggest concern >> >> >> >> Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken >> for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure >> that >> it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in >> Security >> Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. >> And we >> have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And >> any >> defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest >> to >> join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every >> step >> to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: >> >> · >> Either >> this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous >> enough >> so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in >> beating >> the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going >> in >> Crores. >> >> · >> Or >> the Government is not interested in securing the country >> >> >> >> Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of >> media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? >> Why >> didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at >> least >> until complete investigation is over? >> >> Outcome of this >> Saadhvi case >> >> >> >> · >> If >> Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or >> through >> facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and >> other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror >> outfits >> which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, >> Pashwan >> and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other >> similar >> organizations which they keep on advocating. >> >> · >> If >> Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it >> will be >> a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely >> framing >> stories against them also. >> >> · >> The >> greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the >> media >> >> >> >> There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this >> interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or >> Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country >> will >> have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the >> population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress >> and >> anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete >> defeat >> of Hindus and of the nation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Some interesting >> stories >> >> 2008 Malegaon Blast >> >> >> >> The Hindu publishes:      Date: >> Oct 1, 2008 >> >> Subject: Nitric >> acid, nails used in Malegaon blast >> >> >> >> …'The bomb was kept on >> a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah >> Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a >> hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police >> chowk, 30 >> feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. >> Ansari >> is among those critically injured.' >> >> >> >> Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike >> was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – >> forget >> others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was >> planted, >> yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a >> possibility >> to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of >> Deepawali >> and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were >> more >> heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it >> could be >> that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in >> an >> exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but >> not >> the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would >> explode. >> Something fishy appears here itself. >> >> >> >> 2006 Blast >> >> >> >> Inquilab, Mumbai publishes        Date: >> 11th September 2006 >> >> >> >> Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab >> correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and >> had >> died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body >> was badly mutilated and the >> lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from >> Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body >> of >> this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's >> correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked >> Aqeel >> Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not >> there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said >> that >> post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body >> was >> autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should >> be noted that Aqeel said >> to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have >> the >> lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention >> to >> this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these >> blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from >> where fake >> beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such >> information. >> However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched >> into >> the fake beard." >> >> >> >> Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel >> Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in >> the >> dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he >> realizes >> the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or >> telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this >> person, >> hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he >> was saying >> was correct. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:51:32 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:51:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence Message-ID: <98f331e00811062221i1445e58cq51ddfbba374ecf83@mail.gmail.com> Dear all or atleast to whom it may concern, Javed has timely reminded us that 'somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose your views, I spit on it"'. And those who claim on the list or elsewhere that the goons belonging to ABVP only 'protested' and 'tried to have reason with the speakers and organizers' have been exposed. TV channels are continuously showing a person spitting on SAR Gilani. As far as Javed reminder is concerned, I have recorded the footage from a channel and am trying to recognize the face. The members of this list should not be surprised when I declare the name of that uncultured fanatic who is ACTUALLY A MEMBER ON THE LIST. But I request you to wait a while since I would like to place 'pakka saboot' which cannot be ' fake encountered'. To Aditya, One of the most illustrated and brightest Kashmiris, Pt Nehru, said once: 'A University stands for humanism, for tolerance, for reason, for the adventure of ideas and for the search of truth'. Prakash From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 12:04:21 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:04:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811062221i1445e58cq51ddfbba374ecf83@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811062221i1445e58cq51ddfbba374ecf83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811062234k54b92dd9ue9a304236f087a0d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Comrade Ray, I hope you must have seen the interview of Nupur , President DUSU. She did tell that the incident happened before ABVP people arrived to protest and also said that she doesnt condemn the act as well. There are different ways to protest , if your comrades can pick up arms , terrorize industrial groups, and if you still support Kashmiri terrorists whose mean of protest was killing hindu minorities in Kashmir , spitting fades in front of these acts. Please do investigate the person who spitted , it would be interesting to know the person . And if the person belongs to this mailing list , it would be still more interesting. Please do get pucca saboot , and it may still be dismissed on technical grounds. Pawan jai Andhra , jai Hindusthan On 11/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear all or atleast to whom it may concern, > > Javed has timely reminded us that 'somebody on this list a few days ago > said: "I don't oppose your views, I spit on it"'. And those who claim on > the > list or elsewhere that the goons belonging to ABVP only 'protested' and > 'tried to have reason with the speakers and organizers' have been exposed. > TV channels are continuously showing a person spitting on SAR Gilani. As > far > as Javed reminder is concerned, I have recorded the footage from a channel > and am trying to recognize the face. The members of this list should not be > surprised when I declare the name of that uncultured fanatic who is > ACTUALLY > A MEMBER ON THE LIST. But I request you to wait a while since I would like > to place 'pakka saboot' which cannot be ' fake encountered'. > > To Aditya, > > One of the most illustrated and brightest Kashmiris, Pt Nehru, said once: > > 'A University stands for humanism, for tolerance, for reason, for the > adventure of ideas and for the search of truth'. > > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 12:51:59 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:51:59 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 46 References: Message-ID: <656281.1956.qm@web94909.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear All, it is really amusing to see that any violence at any students meet is attributed to ABVP so routinely, as if other students unions are allparagons of virtues.? Nation and its citizen have not forgotten the acts of dance on the tables of Shah commission after 1977 by the then students of Congress, now ministers in cabinet, Ambika Soni led the band of goons of youth congress and students union.!    The hate for BJP and RSS, ABVP seems to be overflowing in the "secular" goon cadres of all the political outfits.? Lalu and his students destryed the public property in Patna, hijacked the train, engine, but these "journalists had nothing to report about this "bihari" goons.? Come on, let us condemn the violence be it from anyone, but the trend to blame and condemn violence only from "saffron" is not secular, but fascist actions of secular goons.? ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 10:13:36 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 46 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai..net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Condemn the violence (Javed)   2. Re: Condemn the violence (inder salim)   3. Re: Condemn the violence (inder salim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:54:02 +0530 From: Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, Shuddhabrata Sengupta Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How atrocious. I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose your views, I spit on it". Sounds so similar. J On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear all, dear hany babu, >> >> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >> which they have conducted themselves. >> >> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >> compliant authorities and the police. >> >> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >> >> > *Press Note* >> > >> > *University Community, Delhi University* >> > >> > *6th November 2008* >> > >> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >> > >> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >> > >> > Dear media persons and journalists, >> > >> > * * >> > >> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >> > Akhil >> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >> > in Delhi >> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >> > victims. >> > >> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >> > teachers of >> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >> > and >> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >> > 22 Arts >> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >> > >> > As the Chair ofthe meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >> > College, >> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >> > of the >> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >> > realised >> > >> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >> > ABVP goondas >> > >> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >> > Sharma (of >> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >> > this >> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >> > taken due >> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >> > >> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >> > who were >> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >> > who were >> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >> > of the >> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >> > the >> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >> > could >> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >> > did the >> > University administration side with? ABVP. >> > >> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >> > continuing >> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >> > meeting >> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >> > presence of >> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >> > permission, >> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >> > break >> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >> > Murdabad, >> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >> > particular >> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >> > meeting from >> > concluding successfully. >> > >> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >> > of ABVP >> > *to >> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >> > Last >> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >> > who once >> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >> > to hold >> > meetings and discussions. >> > >> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >> > threat >> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >> > secular and >> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >> > and the >> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >> > fear. If we >> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >> > left to us >> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >> > and Delhi >> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >> > >> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >> > today's >> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >> > University, at >> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >> > >> > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR >> > against ABVP >> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >> > Ratan, >> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >> > >> > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >> > goondaism and >> > action against the people found guilty. * >> > >> > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >> > similar >> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >> > >> > University Community >> > >> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >> > universitycommun...> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > @gmail.com* >> > -- >> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >> > mdmahtaba...> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > @gmail.com >> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:11:05 +0530 From: "inder salim" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <47e122a70811060841w169cb96el364ded96e73e9541 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Dear Inder Salim since Pragya Singh's and ABVP's links are well  , I suggest you to keep low profile, unless you are too crazy, or you are a paid agent ? with love inder salim On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Javed wrote: > In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How > atrocious. > > I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose > your views, I spit on it". > > Sounds so similar. > > J > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >> >> So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or >> damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle >> power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >> patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and >> the paid up writers >> >> Pawan >> Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >> >> >> >> On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, dear hany babu, >>> >>> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >>> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >>> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >>> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >>> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >>> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >>> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >>> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >>> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >>> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >>> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >>> which they have conducted themselves. >>> >>> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >>> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >>> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >>> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >>> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >>> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >>> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >>> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >>> compliant authorities and the police. >>> >>> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >>> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >>> >>> > *Press Note* >>> > >>> > *University Community, Delhi University* >>> > >>> > *6th November 2008* >>> > >>> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >>> > >>> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >>> > >>> > Dear media persons and journalists, >>> > >>> > * * >>> > >>> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >>> > Akhil >>> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >>> > in Delhi >>> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >>> > victims. >>> > >>> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >>> > teachers of >>> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >>> > and >>> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >>> > 22 Arts >>> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >>> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >>> > >>> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >>> > College, >>> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >>> > of the >>> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >>> > realised >>> > >>> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >>> > ABVP goondas >>> > >>> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >>> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >>> > Sharma (of >>> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >>> > this >>> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >>> > taken due >>> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >>> > >>> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >>> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >>> > who were >>> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >>> > who were >>> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >>> > of the >>> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >>> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >>> > the >>> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >>> > could >>> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >>> > did the >>> > University administration side with? ABVP. >>> > >>> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >>> > continuing >>> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >>> > meeting >>> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >>> > presence of >>> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >>> > permission, >>> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >>> > break >>> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >>> > Murdabad, >>> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >>> > particular >>> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >>> > meeting from >>> > concluding successfully. >>> > >>> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >>> > of ABVP >>> > *to >>> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >>> > Last >>> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >>> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >>> > who once >>> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >>> > to hold >>> > meetings and discussions. >>> > >>> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >>> > threat >>> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >>> > secular and >>> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >>> > and the >>> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >>> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >>> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >>> > fear. If we >>> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >>> > left to us >>> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >>> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >>> > and Delhi >>> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >>> > >>> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >>> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >>> > today's >>> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >>> > University, at >>> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >>> > >>> > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR >>> > against ABVP >>> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >>> > Ratan, >>> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >>> > >>> > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >>> > goondaism and >>> > action against the people found guilty. * >>> > >>> > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >>> > similar >>> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >>> > >>> > University Community >>> > >>> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >>> > universitycommun...>> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >>> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> > @gmail.com* >>> > -- >>> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >>> > mdmahtaba...>> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >>> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>> > @gmail.com >>> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:13:29 +0530 From: "inder salim" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <47e122a70811060843p56afd802h43bfbceec2811a41 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:11 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > >  Since Pragya Singh's and ABVP's links are well  known , I suggest you     to keep low profile, unless you are too crazy, or, you are a paid agent ? > > with love > inder salim > > > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Javed wrote: >> In the DU meeting, the ABVP goons spat on the face of SAR Geelani. How >> atrocious. >> >> I remember somebody on this list a few days ago said: "I don't oppose >> your views, I spit on it". >> >> Sounds so similar. >> >> J >> >> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >>> >>> So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or >>> damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle >>> power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >>> patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and >>> the paid up writers >>> >>> Pawan >>> Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear all, dear hany babu, >>>> >>>> I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >>>> the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >>>> criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >>>> intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >>>> has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >>>> 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >>>> thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >>>> chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >>>> this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >>>> to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >>>> their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >>>> which they have conducted themselves. >>>> >>>> In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >>>> the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >>>> That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >>>> meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >>>> about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >>>> nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >>>> evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >>>> meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >>>> compliant authorities and the police. >>>> >>>> This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >>>> pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >>>> >>>> > *Press Note* >>>> > >>>> > *University Community, Delhi University* >>>> > >>>> > *6th November 2008* >>>> > >>>> > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >>>> > >>>> > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >>>> > >>>> > Dear media persons and journalists, >>>> > >>>> > * * >>>> > >>>> > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >>>> > Akhil >>>> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >>>> > in Delhi >>>> > University, in which members of the press community were also made >>>> > victims. >>>> > >>>> > The University Community, an independent group of students and >>>> > teachers of >>>> > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >>>> > and >>>> > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >>>> > 22 Arts >>>> > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >>>> > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >>>> > >>>> > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >>>> > College, >>>> > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >>>> > of the >>>> > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >>>> > realised >>>> > >>>> > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >>>> > ABVP goondas >>>> > >>>> > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >>>> > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >>>> > Sharma (of >>>> > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >>>> > this >>>> > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >>>> > taken due >>>> > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >>>> > >>>> > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >>>> > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >>>> > who were >>>> > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >>>> > who were >>>> > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >>>> > of the >>>> > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >>>> > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >>>> > the >>>> > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >>>> > could >>>> > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >>>> > did the >>>> > University administration side with? ABVP. >>>> > >>>> > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >>>> > continuing >>>> > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >>>> > meeting >>>> > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >>>> > presence of >>>> > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >>>> > permission, >>>> > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >>>> > break >>>> > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >>>> > Murdabad, >>>> > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >>>> > particular >>>> > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >>>> > meeting from >>>> > concluding successfully. >>>> > >>>> > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >>>> > of ABVP >>>> > *to >>>> > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >>>> > Last >>>> > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >>>> > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >>>> > who once >>>> > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >>>> > to hold >>>> > meetings and discussions. >>>> > >>>> > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >>>> > threat >>>> > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >>>> > secular and >>>> > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >>>> > and the >>>> > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >>>> > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >>>> > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >>>> > fear. If we >>>> > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >>>> > left to us >>>> > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >>>> > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >>>> > and Delhi >>>> > Police support in the fight against fascism? >>>> > >>>> > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >>>> > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >>>> > today's >>>> > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >>>> > University, at >>>> > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >>>> > >>>> > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR >>>> > against ABVP >>>> > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >>>> > Ratan, >>>> > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >>>> > >>>> > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >>>> > goondaism and >>>> > action against the people found guilty. * >>>> > >>>> > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >>>> > similar >>>> > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >>>> > >>>> > University Community >>>> > >>>> > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >>>> > universitycommun...>>> > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >>>> > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>>> > @gmail.com* >>>> > -- >>>> > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >>>> > mdmahtaba...>>> > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >>>> > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >>>> > @gmail.com >>>> > Phone:+91-9811209345 >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 46 ******************************************* Be the first one to try the new Messenger 9 Beta! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/win/ From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 13:16:28 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:16:28 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 51 References: Message-ID: <173482.40905.qm@web94914.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hey, if the accused are muslims then they are not guilty till proved, they are innocent., but accused if they are hindu, the selective leaks to the secular journalists, american sponsotred channel, ibn all become gospel truth..?This forum saw the posts of many claimimg the batla house accused are all innocents, till proved guilty, mastermind theories were ridiculed and some even went to the extent of asking how many master minds etc. How is it that now all of a sudden when accused are hindus, they guilty till they are proved innocent.? Secular constitutional governance seems to be having dual standards for majority and minority.?   Even if Lt. col, has confessed like the batla house detainees. does it have any value in court of law as it is in the custody of plice as pointed out by many secular posts.?    Truth is now is the time toarrest those secular journalists like Rajdeep and his channel should be under scrutiny for the favours this "journalist is doing to Congress. Some weeks ago, I had posted  detailed mail as to how bishops plan in advance for the politics of power, and it is coming true, Sonia your capo regime are failing you as this will be once facing the trial the fallacy of a bomb, that too saffron will be undoing the congress.! hate BJP, but this steps of degrading the army is like treason to the nation by Rajdeep and his channel. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 7 November, 2008 11:10:51 AM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 51 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi (Javed)   2. Re: Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi       (chanchal malviya) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:07:27 +0530 From: Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of     Saadhvi To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Dear Chanchal Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms Is there any doubt left now? On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > Following points are to be noted: > > > > · > How > did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on head? > > · > If > Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or > Ramji. > > · > Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu > to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete area. Can > such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the area > in detail? > > · > Why > isn't a local person arrested yet? > > · > How > has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since > Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS is > tracked so late? How? > > · > The biggest doubt: Will a person who > is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? Is > Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to use > her own bike? > > > > > > Doubt on Talk between > Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji > > > > Indian Express  Date: 5th >  November 2008 > > Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness > 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing > > > > 'The prosecution > claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room in > Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, who > is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a 15-page > statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon magistrate's > court on October 23.'……. > > Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by > an ATS witness > > Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai > > Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi > > Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra? > > > Ramji: Gujarat bolo > > Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed mein > kyon nahi lagayi? > > Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri > Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge > > · > Who > is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that > three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am > the witness who heard Mr.. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it immediately > become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? > > > > However, there is another version of media over the same > thing > > > > IBN Live            Date: > 4th November 2008 > > Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it > conspiracy > > Excerpts from the > tape: > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. > > Ramnarayan Singh: Why? > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. > > Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya > Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me > when? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why > didn't you park the car in a crowed area? > > Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a parking place > there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll with > it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll > gather at least lakh people and protest. > > > > · > So, > the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room among > Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned > conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped phone > has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report that > the taped voices are original or dubbed. > > · > Now, > there are questions to be raised here. According to the published conversation, > Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any > precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not > require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. > > · > It > appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he didn't > park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three four > days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows she is > going to be arrested and before a third person. > > · > Saadhvi > has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are also > so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also and > casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell casually their bikes and > do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not > interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time people > loose the buyer's information also. > > · > Do > you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able to > commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or she > is to be arrested? > > · > Ramji > has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a > parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and escapes. > How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. > > > > If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it > reveals some more important clues: > > · > Gujarat is dragged as a name again.. We have found in past that Gujarat has always been targeted by > anti-Hindus. It happens again here. > > · > There > is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. > > > > > > Bike's number game > > > > This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb > blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and who > is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own > bike. Some questions: > > · > How > many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of > Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own Vehicles > to commit the crime? > > · > Was > Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that she > planted her own bike as evidence? > > · > Media > says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be > removed. Now there are two things: > > o > Either > the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike belonged > to anybody > > o > Or > the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to > remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not all > remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? > > > > Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of > Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether the > voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? > > > > > > Hindu leaders directly > accounted > > > > · > There > has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or Imams has > been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested as > Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an attack > on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested > alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly on > Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, Saadhvi is > directly and suddenly arrested. > > > > NCP attacks VHP office > > > > · > VHP's > name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? > > · > Why > were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train > blast? > > · > Why > do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't they > investigate further to release the names of people who did it? > > > > Difference between > Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism > > > > · > Whenever > a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents always > contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media says > it is plain Terrorism. > > · > Whenever > retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it as > 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu > scriptures. > > > > This is a clear indication that media is working against > Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of Hindus > is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. > > > > The biggest concern > > > > Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken > for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure that > it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in Security > Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. And we > have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And any > defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest to > join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every step > to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: > > · > Either > this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous enough > so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in beating > the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going in > Crores. > > · > Or > the Government is not interested in securing the country > > > > Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of > media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? Why > didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at least > until complete investigation is over? > > Outcome of this > Saadhvi case=0A> > > > · > If > Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or through > facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and > other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror outfits > which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, Pashwan > and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other similar > organizations which they keep on advocating. > > · > If > Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it will be > a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely framing > stories against them also. > > · > The > greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the media > > > > There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this > interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or > Terrorism. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country will > have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the > population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress and > anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete defeat > of Hindus and of the nation. > > > > > > Some interesting > stories > > 2008 Malegaon Blast > > > > The Hindu publishes:      Date: > Oct 1, 2008 > > Subject: Nitric > acid, nails used in Malegaon blast > > > > …'The bomb was kept on > a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah > Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a > hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police chowk, 30 > feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. Ansari > is among those critically injured.' > > > > Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike > was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – forget > others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was planted, > yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a possibility > to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of Deepawali > and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were more > heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it could be > that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in an > exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but not > the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would explode. > Something fishy appears here itself. > > > > 2006 Blast > > > > Inquilab, Mumbai publishes        Date: > 11th September 2006 > > > > Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab > correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and had > died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body was badly mutilated and the > lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from > Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body of > this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's > correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed. When he asked Aqeel > Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not > there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said that > post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body was > autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should be noted that Aqeel said > to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have the > lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention to > this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these > blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from where fake > beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such information. > However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched into > the fake beard." > > > > Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel > Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in the > dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he realizes > the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or > telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this person, > hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he was saying > was correct. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:40:41 -0800 (PST) From: chanchal malviya Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of     Saadhvi To: Javed Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <648490.11806.qm at web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" You have not read my article... I have shown concern on the role media and not on what is the outcome of this probe....   ________________________________ From: Javed To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:07:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Simple Analysis of media reporting of Saadhvi Dear Chanchal Please read this news item - "I was Malegaon mastermind, admits Lt-Col" http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3683035,flstry-1.cms Is there any doubt left now? On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:35 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > Following points are to be noted: > > > > · > How > did a Hindu Bomb suddenly evolve all of a sudden when election is just on head? > > · > If > Saadhvi and Safron were involved, why did they choose Malegaon? Maharashtra was not a base for Saadhvi or > Ramji. > > · > Malegaon is nearly all Muslim. For a Hindu > to commit such an act would require local understanding of the complete area. Can > such incidence take place without the support of local people who know the area > in detail? > > · > Why > isn't a local person arrested yet? > > · > How > has the SMS of Col Purohit come to limelight after more than 20 days since > Pragya is arrested? Her phone calls are said to be recorded, but the SMS is > tracked so late? How? > > · > The biggest doubt: Will a person who > is going to commit a terrorist act, import his or her own vehicle in it? Is > Saadhvi so stupid that she could not even think that she doesn't have to use > her own bike? > > > > > > Doubt on Talk between > Saadhvi Pragya and Ramji > > > > Indian Express  Date: 5th >  November 2008 > > Heading: Malegaon: 3 more arrests, ATS claims witness > 'heard' Sadhvi discuss blast, killing > > > > 'The prosecution > claimed the conversation took place after the September 29 blast in a room in > Ujjain where, apart from Ramji and the Sadhvi, a third person was present, who > is now a witness. This witness, who was present in that room, gave a 15-page > statement with details of the alleged conversation at the Mazgaon magistrate's > court on October 23.'……. > > Alleged conversation between Pragya and Ramji, as claimed by > an ATS witness > > Pragya: Malegaon blast mein meri gaadi mili hai > > Ramji: Lekin woh gadi aapne bechi thi > > Pragya: Police puchhegi kahaan bechi, kya bata-oon? Kya saboot hai? MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra? > > > Ramji: Gujarat bolo > > Pragya: Meri gaadi se blast kiya toh itne kam log kaise mare? Gaadi bheed mein > kyon nahi lagayi? > > Ramji: Bheed mein khadi karne nahi diya. Kuchh hua to niptaa lenge. Meri > Arvindji se baat hui hai. Woh ek lakh public leke aandolan karenge > > · > Who > is the third person? And who else than that unknown person has agreed that > three were in a room in Ujjain? So, if Mr. Z will say that I am > the witness who heard Mr. X saying something to Mr. Y – will it immediately > become so valid that Mr. X and Mr. Y becomes terrorists? > > > > However, there is another version of media over the same > thing > > > > IBN Live            Date: > 4th November 2008 > > Heading: BJP, RSS reject proof against Sadhvi, call it > conspiracy > > Excerpts from the > tape: > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur: They will take me away this evening. > > Ramnarayan Singh: Why? > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: They've found my car in the Malegaon blast case. > > Ramnarayan Singh: But you sold that car. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: Where did I sell it? Madhya > Pradesh? Gujarat? Maharashtra? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Tell them Gujarat. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: What do I tell them if they ask me > when? > > Ramnarayan Singh: Say you don't remember. > > Sadhvi Pragya Singh > Thakur: But why did so few people died? Why > didn't you park the car in a crowed area? > > Ramnarayan Singh: I had identified a crowded area but I couldn't find a parking place > there, and the area where I parked it wasn't very crowded. Anyway, we'll with > it if something happens. I have already spoken to Arvindji. He said he'll > gather at least lakh people and protest. > > > > · > So, > the media has two versions. One says that there was a meeting in a Room among > Saadhvi, Ramji and the unknown third person, who has said the mentioned > conversation. Another says, the phone has been taped. However, the taped phone > has not been shown in media with original voices. And there is no report that > the taped voices are original or dubbed. > > · > Now, > there are questions to be raised here. According to the published conversation, > Saadhvi knows that she is going to be arrested. And she did not take any > precaution of having a lawyer. And till the end of the talk, they do not > require any legal support. They talk of common people's protest. > > · > It > appears from the media releases that she didn't ask Ramji about why he didn't > park the vehicle in crowded area immediately after the blast or for three four > days after that day. She asked him this thing at the time when she knows she is > going to be arrested and before a third person. > > · > Saadhvi > has sold the bike, but she doesn't know in which she sold it. And they are also > so careless that they do not ponder much to decide about the place also and > casually chose Gujarat. It is noteworthy that only those people sell casually their bikes and > do not care much about to whom they sell their bike who are completely not > interested in Criminal Offenses. Many times, it happens that with time people > loose the buyer's information also. > > · > Do > you think that people who can go to the level of terrorism would be able to > commit such mistakes and carelessness even after understanding that he or she > is to be arrested? > > · > Ramji > has to park the bike in a crowded area. He locates it, but do not find a > parking place. And he simply leaves the vehicle in a no man's land and escapes. > How silly? In general, a terrorist will never do this. > > > > If the above conversation proves to be a conspiracy, then it > reveals some more important clues: > > · > Gujarat is dragged as a name again. We have found in past that Gujarat has always been targeted by > anti-Hindus. It happens again here. > > · > There > is no talk on legal aspect. The fear is people's protest alone. > > > > > > Bike's number game > > > > This is a case of its own kind where the designers of a bomb > blast, who are not local to Malegaon, whose bike is not of Maharashtra and who > is not a Muslim, enters a dominated Muslim area, and plants his or her own > bike. Some questions: > > · > How > many terrorists in India or Abroad or in History of > Terrorism have you heard that Terrorists or Locals have used their own Vehicles > to commit the crime? > > · > Was > Saadhvi Pragya such a stupid organizer of sophisticated terrorist act that she > planted her own bike as evidence? > > · > Media > says: (Quote link) that the chesis number of the bike was attempted to be > removed. Now there are two things: > > o > Either > the number was removed: which will never lead to confirm that the bike belonged > to anybody > > o > Or > the number was not removed: And this doubtful – if someone will attempt to > remove the chesis number, he/she will either remove it or he/she will not all > remove it. What is the meaning of attempt? > > > > Why doesn't the ATS release their investigation details of > Narco test immediately? How will the common people come to know, whether the > voices in the Test Recordings are not dubbed? > > > > > > Hindu leaders directly > accounted > > > > · > There > has been lots of bombing going on in our Country. How many Maulvis or Imams has > been arrested yet? People never know the status of people who are arrested as > Muslims. In case of Hindus, it is noteworthy; there is nearly always an attack > on their leaders directly. Some examples are: Shankaracharya was arrested > alleged directly for murder. Allegations were made by/via media directly on > Asharam Bapuji. Brinda Karat alleged Baba Ram Dev directly. And now, Saadhvi is > directly and suddenly arrested. > > > > NCP attacks VHP office > > > > · > VHP's > name had no where come in the attack. Why was VHP's office targeted? > > · > Why > were the same NCP people so quite while so many blasts took place in Maharashtra including Mumbai serial train > blast? > > · > Why > do the media simply project NCP as the people who attacked VHP? Why don't they > investigate further to release the names of people who did it? > > > > Difference between > Hindu Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism > > > > · > Whenever > a mail is sent by any Muslim Terrorist Organizations, the mail contents always > contain texts of Quran and 'In the name of Allah'. Yet our honorable media says > it is plain Terrorism. > > · > Whenever > retaliation is exercised by any Hindu Outfit, our truthful media terms it as > 'Hindu Terror'. Even though these outfits never quote or follow any Hindu > scriptures. > > > > This is a clear indication that media is working against > Hindus. Anything that can defame the name of Hindu in the very nation of Hindus > is what media takes pride in shouting aloud. > > > > The biggest concern > > > > Even if some Army officials (retired or working) were taken > for interrogation, it was the duty of the Government and Media to ensure that > it doesn't become public. There is already a huge dissatisfaction in Security > Forces. We have reduction in people's interest to join Security Forces. And we > have plenty of vacant positions. Security of the country is crucial. And any > defamation brought to its name will completely ruin the people's interest to > join it. Now, here is a Government and a set of Media who is taking every step > to forecast Army as a Terrorist Group. There are two possibilities: > > · > Either > this is done knowingly, where the purpose is to make the defense porous enough > so as to weaken it. Bangladesh and Pakistan are already successful in beating > the Army and entering Indian territories, the count of Bangladeshis going in > Crores. > > · > Or > the Government is not interested in securing the country > > > > Tomorrow who will save this country? Isn't the projection of > media a step towards putting our defense parallel to ISI or Pak Forces? Why > didn't the Government intervene to ask media to be quite about Army, at least > until complete investigation is over? > > Outcome of this > Saadhvi case > > > > · > If > Saadhvi is proven to be guilty, by any chance, through conspiracy or through > facts, it is a win of Islamic terrorism. Because, hence forth Congress and > other anti-Hindu parties will have loud voice protecting the terror outfits > which they are already doing. Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, Lalu Yadav, Pashwan > and many others will further get boost to uplift SIMI and many other similar > organizations which they keep on advocating. > > · > If > Saadhvi is not proven guilty, then ATS would be guilty and then also it will be > a win of Islamic Terrorism who will claim that ATS has been completely framing > stories against them also. > > · > The > greatest loss to the country is that the Army is getting defamed by the media > > > > There is no doubt that whatever is the outcome of this > interrogation, and whoever is the culprit, the end result is in favor or > Terrorism.. And this is an unfortunate that the majority of this country will > have to pay for it. It is an unfortunate that Hindus, the 70% of the > population, will be deprived of calling themselves as Hindus, as Congress and > anti-Hindu parties already call Hinduism as Communal. This is a complete defeat > of Hindus and of the nation. > > > > > > Some interesting > stories > > 2008 Malegaon Blast > > > > The Hindu publishes:      Date: > Oct 1, 2008 > > Subject: Nitric > acid, nails used in Malegaon blast > > > > …'The bomb was kept on > a motorbike which, locals said, was lying outside a shop owned by Abdullah > Jamaluddin Ansari, 70. After a couple of hours, Ansari asked a worker in a > hotel opposite to his premises to report about the bike at the police chowk, 30 > feet from the blast site. But the police paid no heed, it was alleged. Ansari > is among those critically injured.' > > > > Note: Now, if Ansari knew that the bike > was a bomb bike, how come he could not save himself from the blast – forget > others. It is amazing to understand that people knew that a bomb was planted, > yet they lost 4 lives and several got injured. However, there is a possibility > to this that people mistook that it was a bigger chocolate bomb of Deepawali > and would not hurt them at a distance and kept closer. Four of them were more > heroic to remain too closer. And that is how casualty resulted. Or it could be > that they just doubted the bike and were roaming around it as if it was in an > exhibition and wanted police to take it away. They could see the bike, but not > the bomb. They could doubt its presence, but not think that it would explode. > Something fishy appears here itself. > > > > 2006 Blast > > > > Inquilab, Mumbai publishes        Date: > 11th September 2006 > > > > Malegaon 10 Sept (Inquilab > correspondent): The dead body of a man who was wearing a fake beard and had > died in the bomb blasts of Malegaon has mysteriously disappeared. His body was badly mutilated and the > lower part was completely missing. Aqeel Ahmed, a 37 year old tailor from > Islampura area of Malegaon, says that he had himself moved the dead body of > this man into the ambulance van when his [fake] beard came off. Inquilab's > correspondent visited the mortuary along with Aqeel Ahmed.. When he asked Aqeel > Ahmed to identify the dead body, he said that the body in question was not > there. The medical officer of Malegaon Municipal Corporation Dr Vagh said that > post-mortem had been carried on 30 corpses in Wadia Hospital and one body was > autopsied in Dholia Hospital but none of them was without legs. It should be noted that Aqeel said > to have himself moved into the ambulance van a dead body that did not have the > lower part. According to Aqeel, at that time he did not pay much attention to > this but realised the significance only later. This revelation links these > blasts to the explosions in the house of a RSS member in Malegaon from where fake > beards were discovered. Police say that they do not have any such information. > However, if an eyewitness comes forward, investigation will be launched into > the fake beard." > > > > Note: It is so interesting that Mr Aqeel > Ahmed found the lower half of the body missing, but the beard intact in the > dead body. And beard was removed only when Aqeel pulled it off. And he realizes > the significance later so that no one can verify whether he was lying or > telling the truth. I wonder why a Narco Test was not conducted on this person, > hopefully, in positive aspect for him alone so as to confirm that what he was saying > was correct. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 51 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From poonamassar at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 05:05:54 2008 From: poonamassar at yahoo.com (Poonam Assar) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:35:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Congratulations America Message-ID: <837351.44848.qm@web111113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> It is amazing how one person could move the world!! All over, there is Obama-Mania going around. It is about CHANGE that no one even thought was needed globally. He has infact convinced us! I was reading this blog which has the transcript of his speech as well. Thought would share it with you all. http://nehash.blogspot.com/ From kj.impulse at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 22:48:54 2008 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:48:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] Doc screening: Bullets and Butterflies on NDTV Message-ID: <821019d70811060918y25d6f1eag92bfcf0b7c44a252@mail.gmail.com> FWDED MSG FROM SUSHMIT GHOSH. Kindly address any replies to the director, Sushmit Ghosh (email ID below) thanks list-moderator --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: sushmit ghosh A strange couple travel a distance of 1500 kilometers over 7 days – an unprecedented ride that takes them through plains, hills and into mountains; marked by narrow escapes and introspective conversations; breathtaking sights and an uncanny contrast of people. Travellers-turned-cameramen, they shoot the ride on the go, enthusing the film with their refreshingly ingenuous approach to capturing the ride on video. Funny thing is that this strange expedition was never intended to be a film… Bullets and Butterflies traces the journey of a handicapped street child and a biking enthusiast on a motorcycle - popularly known as a Bullet - as they travel from the bustling cityscape of Delhi to the serene hills of Himachal Pradesh. It is the journey from a promise made during a fleeting conversation to its fulfillment in an unforeseen, bizarrely deep understanding between the odd pair; inadvertently providing an insight on differently-abled people and the hardships of a life lived on the streets. Hi, Thought it'd make sense to start off with the synopsis of Bullets and Butterflies, a film I somehow managed to scrape together last year. Some of you might have seen it...a few have been an intrinsic part of the process...while most of you have either not seen it or heard about it. This is to inform you that the film will be screened on NDTV 24/7. Details as follows: November 12 & 13 - 9:30 pm - 10 pm November 16 - 1 to 2 pm (Repeat) This film was edited with little idea of how to go about with the final result. Although inadvertent in its intent as a documentary, it has travelled and been well received by audiences across various film festivals in Canada, Italy, Qatar, Bangladesh, Turkey and India. It is also being used as an educational as well as resource mobilization tool by various non-governmental organizations across India. However, anything more said about it would probably dilute from the pleasure of the watch! I'm hoping that you'll be able to catch the screening on NDTV next week. Do revert to me in case of any queries and please forward this mail to family and friends. Warmly, Sushmit - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 13:49:21 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:49:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence Message-ID: <98f331e00811070019u3dd460b7t3215ca6d78248898@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya Raj Kaul, I was going through your pictures and the pictures poste by you on the net, particularly the pics showing black ink thrown on JKLF leader Yasin Malik where you say that the ink was thrown by unidentified 'activists'. In a response to Aarti's post here on the list, you tell her ro 'shut up' since she was not there in SAR Gilani's meeting in DU. I would like to ask you: (a) whether you were present in the meeting, (b) if yes, can u kindly share some pictures of spitting on Gilani with us, and (c) Can you and your good friend Nupur Sharma identify the 'unidentified activist'.... Meanwhile I am also trying to find out. Prakash From iram at sarai.net Fri Nov 7 13:26:51 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:26:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] City Ragas at Sarai Message-ID: <4913F4C3.7060501@sarai.net> ============== City Ragas at Sarai ============== Sarai- CSDS in collaboration with the Waag Society is organizing City Ragas, a mobile phone photo exchange game to be played between participants in Delhi and Amsterdam, during the Amsterdam - India festival to be held from 12 November to 30 November 2008, in Amsterdam. City Ragas brings together mobile phone technology with a custom- designed application, cell phone cameras, and the two cities of Delhi and Amsterdam, to create a platform for image based story telling through game play. Read more about City Ragas at http://www.cityragas.com/about City Ragas will be presented online at http://www.cityragas.com/watchgame The images will also be shown at different venues, with a traveling bioscope in Amsterdam. Participate in City Ragas =================== Sign up for City Ragas at http://www.cityragas.com/signup or Write to michelle [at] waag.org for participation in Amsterdam, and iram [at] sarai.net for participation in Delhi. There are two, one- hour games, on each of the days. People can register for both. City Ragas will be played on the following dates: Saturday, 8th of November Saturday, 15th of November Saturday, 22nd of November Sunday, 30th of November Timings for game play are: Game 01 - 14:00 (Delhi) 9:30 (Amsterdam) Game 02 - 16:30 (Delhi) 12:00 (Amsterdam) =============================================================================================================================================== _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 13:59:31 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:59:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811062234k54b92dd9ue9a304236f087a0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811062221i1445e58cq51ddfbba374ecf83@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811062234k54b92dd9ue9a304236f087a0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: its a shameless defence of cheap disgraceful acts also these are reverbations of fasicism making things hindu and nonhindu is retrograde politcs and communal asit On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Comrade Ray, > > I hope you must have seen the interview of Nupur , President DUSU. She did > tell that the incident happened before ABVP people arrived to protest and > also said that she doesnt condemn the act as well. > > There are different ways to protest , if your comrades can pick up arms , > terrorize industrial groups, and if you still support Kashmiri terrorists > whose mean of protest was killing hindu minorities in Kashmir , spitting > fades in front of these acts. > > Please do investigate the person who spitted , it would be interesting to > know the person . And if the person belongs to this mailing list , it would > be still more interesting. > > Please do get pucca saboot , and it may still be dismissed on technical > grounds. > > Pawan > jai Andhra , jai Hindusthan > > > On 11/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > Dear all or atleast to whom it may concern, > > > > Javed has timely reminded us that 'somebody on this list a few days ago > > said: "I don't oppose your views, I spit on it"'. And those who claim on > > the > > list or elsewhere that the goons belonging to ABVP only 'protested' and > > 'tried to have reason with the speakers and organizers' have been > exposed. > > TV channels are continuously showing a person spitting on SAR Gilani. As > > far > > as Javed reminder is concerned, I have recorded the footage from a > channel > > and am trying to recognize the face. The members of this list should not > be > > surprised when I declare the name of that uncultured fanatic who is > > ACTUALLY > > A MEMBER ON THE LIST. But I request you to wait a while since I would > like > > to place 'pakka saboot' which cannot be ' fake encountered'. > > > > To Aditya, > > > > One of the most illustrated and brightest Kashmiris, Pt Nehru, said once: > > > > 'A University stands for humanism, for tolerance, for reason, for the > > adventure of ideas and for the search of truth'. > > > > > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 14:08:11 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:08:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ABVP bags four out of six posts Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811070038y55d1afb5k95ad835844f90de4@mail.gmail.com> = Tushar Dhara First Published : 07 Nov 2008 11:05:00 AM IST Last Updated : 07 Nov 2008 12:22:48 PM IST HYDERABAD: November seems to be a month for elections. Two different sets of elections were held yesterday. Unlike the US elections, the University of Hyderabad Students' Union election was a local affair, though not lacking in its share of passion and controversy. Around 20 students from different departments campaigned to become president, vice-president, general secretary, joint secretary, cultural secretary and sports secretary. As many as 2,268 of the approximately 3,500 students exercised their franchise. The Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) won the posts of president, vice-president, general secretary and joint secretary by 35, 199, 26 and 136 votes respectively while the Students' Federation of India (SFI) captured the post of cultural secretary by 92 votes. Imlinichet Imchen, an independent, became sports secretary. The vote share of the ABVP came down from last year when it had swept the union elections. The election was not without its share of controversies. One controversy was about the implementation of the Lyngdoh Committee recommendations regarding conduct of student union elections. The Election Commission (EC), a university body consisting of 29 students, released the election notification on October 21 and then realised that it wasn't in conformity with the Lyngdoh recommendations. It, therefore, issued a fresh notification on October 26 which resulted in the disqualification of two candidates for being overaged. The Lyngdoh report recommends barring students over 28 years. Says an SFI worker, "The EC raised the Lyngdoh issue two days before the polls were to be held which caused a confusion." Another controversy was about voter inducement. It is alleged that an ex-president of the National Students' Union of India (NSUI) -- the student wing of the Congress party -- was caught ''red-handed with diaries and shoes meant for distribution among students''. Someone present at the place where the incident occured whipped out a cell phone, made a video and uploaded it on Youtube. NSUI president, Shivaji, denied the charge saying, "The material was given to us by the Gandhi Peace-keeping Foundation for distribution much before the elections.'' http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=ABVP+bags+four+out+of+six+posts&artid=XCVfwsD9M4g=&SectionID=xAV59odivTs=&MainSectionID=wIcBMLGbUJI=&SectionName=BUzPVSKuYv7MFxnS0yZ7ng==&SEO = From lenfantstupido at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 14:14:39 2008 From: lenfantstupido at gmail.com (l'enfant stupido) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:44:39 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] breathing exercise 101 Message-ID: <107debd30811070044y37f9301ck10eb00bbfc13390@mail.gmail.com> today was weird. waked up and found the tree in front of my room go completely bland. last few leaves. the footpath was covered. walking over it, felt like a dictator. strange noise of someone crushing a paper inside my head. went to my research center. colleague asks me to email him a photo of myself. for some stupid newsletter. i tell him i will revert soon. then, it struck me that i don't have any digital photo of myself. couple of hours later, colleague asks for it again. i tell him i don't have any as of now and could get it in sometime. he tells me that i could even send a group photo of myself with friends and he could render it. i tell him that i don't have any digital pic of any sort. he gives me a funny look. maybe, he thought i am a neanderthal. oh yea. anyone in his early 20s without a digital foto is indeed a neanderthal. then, i take a self-shot with my mobile and i mail it to him and thereby, i become the Cro-Magnon man. *-*-* kundera talks somewhere in 'unbearable lightness..' about the lewdness of the music of his times. he calls it 'music minus memories'. Foucault somewhere talks about 'care of the Self'. somehow, both of these evades me. and on introspection, i think i consciously sought out to avoid them at any cost. there must be hardly 10 photos of myself so far - either alone or within a group. dunno why. not that i hate myself and think that i am un-photogenic. not at all. but somehow, i was actively erasing myself all these days. determined to unfoot all the footmarks and die without an identity. ironically, people who talked so much about 'care of the Self' tread on self-destructive paths towards the end of their lives. foucault, roamed and roamed all over california. went to every gay club and every haunthouse fetishes towards the end of his life. and died of AIDS and vd. for someone like Foucault who talked on and on about erasing every single part of his constructed identity, this is something of an anticlimax. this atavistic longing, which consumed him in full. what an irony. the atavistic needs of a hopelessly renowned scholar who ridiculed every ism, every single thing including scholarship, rationality, archives, academia, intelligentsia, marxism, modernity/ism and atavism. what a fuckin irony! i am no big fan of his works, neither do i understand it much. however, i deeply empathize with the thing which occupied him towards the end of his life. i imagine of two images and they haunt me. the young foucault, l'enfant terrible - digging himself in the library amidst huge archives about history of science and philosophy, the foucault who wrote 'the order of things' and shook the intelligentsia, the foucault who showed the middle finger to everyone. and then, the second image of someone roaming on the streets of california, moving to and fro from one gay club to another, indulging aimlessly in every kind of divine fetish and dying of aids. with an unfulfilled appetite. filled with a pressing desire to move beyond the burden of his self. and then, there is this third image. which was taken by henri cartier bresson. the timeless smile of that old man. *-*-* sleep beckons. with vivid dreams of a movie - michel foucault is plotting to kill erik erikson. now. that it something to go rotfl about. -l'enfant stupido From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 14:30:08 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:30:08 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 References: Message-ID: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hi, Shuddha,  why are you shocked, is it because you thought that it is privilege of NSUI and left students wings only have right to be violent.? But again, it is not sure if ABVP students were violent as media and secular are always partisan and attribute all violence to hindus only.! ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 9:26:40 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and    RSS in       Delhi University (Shuddhabrata Sengupta)   2. Condemn the violence (Pawan Durani)   3. Re: Condemn the violence (Aditya Raj Kaul) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP     and    RSS in Delhi University To: hany babu Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes;     format=flowed Dear all, dear hany babu, I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on  the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of  criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent  intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that  has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of  'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain  thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice  chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for  this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted)  to be closed is deeply regrettable.. They have profoundly compromised  their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in  which they have conducted themselves. In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has  the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary.  That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the  meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know  about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate.. They have  nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no  evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power,  meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and  compliant authorities and the police. This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their  pathetic weakness.. They will not prevail. best Shuddha On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > *Press Note* > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > *6th November 2008* > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > * * > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by  > Akhil > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS)  > in Delhi > University, in which members of the press community were also made  > victims. > > The University Community, an independent group of students and  > teachers of > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism  > and > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No.  > 22 Arts > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain  > College, > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one  > of the > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we  > realised > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting –  > ABVP goondas > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur  > Sharma (of > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of  > this > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had  > taken due > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons  > who were > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today,  > who were > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one  > of the > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and  > the > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting  > could > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who  > did the > University administration side with? ABVP. > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on  > continuing > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the  > meeting > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the  > presence of > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their  > permission, > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to  > break > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan  > Murdabad, > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in  > particular > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the  > meeting from > concluding successfully. > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort  > of ABVP > *to > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*.  > Last > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons  > who once > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right  > to hold > meetings and discussions. > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the  > threat > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the  > secular and > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP,  > and the > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and  > fear. If we > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is  > left to us > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration  > and Delhi > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of  > today's > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the  > University, at > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR  > against ABVP > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh  > Ratan, > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and  > goondaism and > action against the people found guilty. * > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on  > similar > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > University Community > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > universitycommun... GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > @gmail.com* > -- > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > @gmail.com > Phone:+91-9811209345 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 From: "Pawan Durani" Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f at mail.gmail..com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and the paid up writers Pawan Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > which they have conducted themselves. > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > compliant authorities and the police. > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > *Press Note* > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > * * > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > Akhil > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > in Delhi > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > victims. > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > teachers of > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > and > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > 22 Arts > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > College, > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > of the > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > realised > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > ABVP goondas > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > Sharma (of > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > this > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > taken due > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > who were > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > who were > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > of the > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > the > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > could > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > did the > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > continuing > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > meeting > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > presence of > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > permission, > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > break > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > Murdabad, > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > particular > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > meeting from > > concluding successfully. > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > of ABVP > > *to > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > Last > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > who once > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > to hold > > meetings and discussions. > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > threat > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > secular and > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > and the > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > fear. If we > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > left to us > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > and Delhi > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > today's > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > University, at > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > against ABVP > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > Ratan, > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > goondaism and > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > similar > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > University Community > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > universitycommun... > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com* > > -- > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > mdmahtaba... > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the same to the contrary. As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to leave the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It was an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just to provoke the common student. It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful protesters which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP activist was injured in the entire protest. The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior information, and no permission was taken from them or the University authorities. Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face just trial. Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. Who decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of the panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the student community. I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > * * > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > Akhil > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > in Delhi > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > victims. > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > teachers of > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > and > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > 22 Arts > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > College, > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > of the > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > realised > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > Sharma (of > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > this > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > taken due > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > who were > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > who were > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > of the > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > the > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > could > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > did the > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > continuing > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > meeting > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > presence of > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > permission, > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > break > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > Murdabad, > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > particular > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > meeting from > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > of ABVP > > > *to > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > Last > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > who once > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > to hold > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > threat > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > secular and > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > and the > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > fear. If we > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > left to us > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > and Delhi > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > today's > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > University, at > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > against ABVP > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > Ratan, > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > goondaism and > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > similar > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > universitycommun... > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com* > > > -- > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM=0A> > > mdmahtaba... > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail..sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 14:38:00 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 14:38:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i agree with suddha these are portents of fascism communal lumpen organisations like abvp should be banned asit On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Hi, Shuddha, > > why are you shocked, is it because you thought that it is privilege of > NSUI and left students wings only have right to be violent.? But again, it > is not sure if ABVP students were violent as media and secular are always > partisan and attribute all violence to hindus only.! > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 9:26:40 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in > Delhi University (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) > 2. Condemn the violence (Pawan Durani) > 3. Re: Condemn the violence (Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP > and RSS in Delhi University > To: hany babu > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes; > format=flowed > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > to be closed is deeply regrettable.. They have profoundly compromised > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > which they have conducted themselves. > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate.. They have > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > compliant authorities and the police. > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > pathetic weakness.. They will not prevail. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > *Press Note* > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > * * > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > Akhil > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > in Delhi > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > victims. > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > teachers of > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > and > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > 22 Arts > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > College, > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > of the > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > realised > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > ABVP goondas > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > Sharma (of > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > this > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > taken due > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > who were > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > who were > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > of the > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > the > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > could > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > did the > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > continuing > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > meeting > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > presence of > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > permission, > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > break > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > Murdabad, > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > particular > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > meeting from > > concluding successfully. > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > of ABVP > > *to > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > Last > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > who once > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > to hold > > meetings and discussions. > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > threat > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > secular and > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > and the > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > fear. If we > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > left to us > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > and Delhi > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > today's > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > University, at > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > against ABVP > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > Ratan, > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > goondaism and > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > similar > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > University Community > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > universitycommun... > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com* > > -- > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > mdmahtaba... > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 > From: "Pawan Durani" > Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f at mail.gmail..com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > * * > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > Akhil > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > in Delhi > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > victims. > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > teachers of > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > and > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > 22 Arts > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > College, > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > of the > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > realised > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > Sharma (of > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > this > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > taken due > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > who were > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > who were > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > of the > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > the > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > could > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > did the > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > continuing > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > meeting > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > presence of > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > permission, > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > break > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > Murdabad, > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > particular > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > meeting from > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > of ABVP > > > *to > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > Last > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > who once > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > to hold > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > threat > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > secular and > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > and the > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > fear. If we > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > left to us > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > and Delhi > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > today's > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > University, at > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > against ABVP > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > Ratan, > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > goondaism and > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > similar > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > universitycommun... > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com* > > > -- > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > > mdmahtaba... > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > To: "sarai list" > Message-ID: > <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on > 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the > same > to the contrary. > > As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to leave > the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It > was > an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just to > provoke the common student. > > It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful protesters > which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP activist > was injured in the entire protest. > > The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior > information, and no permission was taken from them or the University > authorities. > > Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't > prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face > just trial. > > Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. Who > decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of > the > panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. > > Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't > tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the > student community. > > I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > > the paid up writers > > > > Pawan > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > > Akhil > > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > > in Delhi > > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > > victims. > > > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > > teachers of > > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > > and > > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > > 22 Arts > > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would > be > > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > > College, > > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > > of the > > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > > realised > > > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > > Sharma (of > > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > > this > > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > > taken due > > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke > the > > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > > who were > > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > > who were > > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > > of the > > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > > the > > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > > could > > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > > did the > > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > > continuing > > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > > meeting > > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > > presence of > > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > > permission, > > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > > break > > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > > Murdabad, > > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > > particular > > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > > meeting from > > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > > of ABVP > > > > *to > > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > > Last > > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > > who once > > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > > to hold > > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > > threat > > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > > secular and > > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > > and the > > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack > on > > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for > the > > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > > fear. If we > > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > > left to us > > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > > and Delhi > > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > > today's > > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > > University, at > > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > > against ABVP > > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > > Ratan, > > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > > goondaism and > > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > > similar > > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > > universitycommun... > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com* > > > > -- > > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM=0A> > > mdmahtaba...< > http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ > > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com > > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > ******************************************* > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 15:02:27 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:02:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: References: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811070132w66552229lc6c925f66d1d815a@mail.gmail.com> Anything which co relates with hindu / nationalistic views shud be banned. Wonder Asit never asked for banning SIMI & JKLF. On 11/7/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > i agree with suddha these are portents of fascism communal lumpen > organisations like abvp should be banned > asit > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, rajendra bhat >wrote: > > > Hi, Shuddha, > > > > why are you shocked, is it because you thought that it is privilege of > > NSUI and left students wings only have right to be violent.? But again, > it > > is not sure if ABVP students were violent as media and secular are always > > partisan and attribute all violence to hindus only.! > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 9:26:40 PM > > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in > > Delhi University (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) > > 2. Condemn the violence (Pawan Durani) > > 3. Re: Condemn the violence (Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP > > and RSS in Delhi University > > To: hany babu > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes; > > format=flowed > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > to be closed is deeply regrettable.. They have profoundly compromised > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate.. They have > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > pathetic weakness.. They will not prevail. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > * * > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > Akhil > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > in Delhi > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > victims. > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > teachers of > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > and > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > 22 Arts > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > College, > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > of the > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > realised > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > Sharma (of > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > this > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > taken due > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > who were > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > who were > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > of the > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > the > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > could > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > did the > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > continuing > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > meeting > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > presence of > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > permission, > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > break > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > Murdabad, > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > particular > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > meeting from > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > of ABVP > > > *to > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > Last > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > who once > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > to hold > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > threat > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > secular and > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > and the > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > fear. If we > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > left to us > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > and Delhi > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > today's > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > University, at > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > against ABVP > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > Ratan, > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > goondaism and > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > similar > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > universitycommun... > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com* > > > -- > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > > mdmahtaba... > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 > > From: "Pawan Durani" > > Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: > > <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f at mail.gmail..com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > > the paid up writers > > > > Pawan > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > > Akhil > > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > > in Delhi > > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > > victims. > > > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > > teachers of > > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > > and > > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > > 22 Arts > > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would > be > > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > > College, > > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > > of the > > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > > realised > > > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > > Sharma (of > > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > > this > > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > > taken due > > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke > the > > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > > who were > > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > > who were > > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > > of the > > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > > the > > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > > could > > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > > did the > > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > > continuing > > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > > meeting > > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > > presence of > > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > > permission, > > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > > break > > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > > Murdabad, > > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > > particular > > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > > meeting from > > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > > of ABVP > > > > *to > > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > > Last > > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > > who once > > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > > to hold > > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > > threat > > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > > secular and > > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > > and the > > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack > on > > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for > the > > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > > fear. If we > > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > > left to us > > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > > and Delhi > > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > > today's > > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > > University, at > > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > > against ABVP > > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > > Ratan, > > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > > goondaism and > > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > > similar > > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > > universitycommun... > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com* > > > > -- > > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > > > mdmahtaba... > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com > > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 > > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > > To: "sarai list" > > Message-ID: > > <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > > > Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on > > 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the > > same > > to the contrary. > > > > As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to leave > > the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It > > was > > an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just to > > provoke the common student. > > > > It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful > protesters > > which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP > activist > > was injured in the entire protest. > > > > The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior > > information, and no permission was taken from them or the University > > authorities. > > > > Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't > > prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face > > just trial. > > > > Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. > Who > > decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of > > the > > panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. > > > > Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't > > tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the > > student community. > > > > I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > > > > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people > or > > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is > muscle > > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists > and > > > the paid up writers > > > > > > Pawan > > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > > > Akhil > > > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > > > in Delhi > > > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > > > victims. > > > > > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > > > teachers of > > > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > > > and > > > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > > > 22 Arts > > > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would > > be > > > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > > > College, > > > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > > > of the > > > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > > > realised > > > > > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > > > Sharma (of > > > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > > > this > > > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > > > taken due > > > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke > > the > > > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > > > who were > > > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > > > who were > > > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > > > of the > > > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she > was > > > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > > > the > > > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > > > could > > > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > > > did the > > > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > > > continuing > > > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > > > meeting > > > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > > > presence of > > > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > > > permission, > > > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > > > break > > > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > > > Murdabad, > > > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > > > particular > > > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > > > meeting from > > > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > > > of ABVP > > > > > *to > > > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > > > Last > > > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department > were > > > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > > > who once > > > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > > > to hold > > > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > > > threat > > > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > > > secular and > > > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > > > and the > > > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack > > on > > > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for > > the > > > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > > > fear. If we > > > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > > > left to us > > > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold > a > > > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > > > and Delhi > > > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against > this > > > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > > > today's > > > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > > > University, at > > > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > > > against ABVP > > > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > > > Ratan, > > > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > > > goondaism and > > > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > > > similar > > > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > > > universitycommun... > > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > > @gmail.com* > > > > > -- > > > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM=0A> > > mdmahtaba...< > > http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ > > > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > > @gmail.com > > > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai. > .net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > > ******************************************* > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 15:30:32 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:30:32 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 References: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811070132w66552229lc6c925f66d1d815a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <870158.25459.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> It is amusing to see the secular journalists are now undermining the  armed forces even before any evidence of guilt in investigative stage is conclusive. ! Is it not playing in to the hands of separatists in the nation and at the same time damaging the national unity.?The anchors can never be journalists as they have to be true to their media bosses and not to the news, as they have to always give views more than news.A journalist always verifies the facts and then publishes it, and the way the channel anchors are propagating views as news  that too from "our ATS sources" it looks dubious as to how they have kept these sources with what sort of resources, funds, honeytrap or plain political pressures.?   Even before the investigations are complete, the media seems to be conducting the trial of not only accused but also of the armed forces and their integrity, which is indeed sad, it has become license for all to be judge, executor, prosecutor etc if one is termed as journlist.    More on serious issue, it is been practise of british rule to divide the ruled on their religion and later Congress excelled in the divisive rule, while professing about unity in diversity, it divided the polity and citizens in to groups of caste communes, faith communes and region communes, thus even when only 45 citizens voted, the minority if organised became the strong majority. Now with alienation of hindus and muslims, the Congress with christian coteriew is trying the finer issue of capturing power with two communes fighting with each other, so that pope nominee could rule. But let it be remembered the citizens of India are not that naive, as proved earlier, Indira had to pay the price for her game of creating bhindranvale to drive Akalidal to sidelines, rajeev had to  sacrifice(?) his life for being in support of LTTE  in the divisive game of politics and power, Madam sonia, it is good that your house in Italy is fully furbished by your trusted man friday, karthiketyan, so that when your coteries of christians are leading you up the garden path you ahve atleast a place to run away, unlike last time you need not goto italian embassy.?   Madam Sonia, citizens are watching your coterie activities, be it the Margaret Alva, Oscar Fernandes who have not got elected for ages, their constituencies rejecting them for their sycophancy, or your loyalists like Antony, Salman Khursheed, all seem to have one factor in common, either they are christians or they have christian spouses.? With your capo regimes failing you, Congress will be soon a regional set up thinly spread all over, but will not get support of even regional satraps at this rate.! Barking dogs bit you, laughing hyenas have been threatening to quit and third front seems a possible alternate but stability with such a forum will be big question mark and with demoralised armed forces the nation will have to pay a heavy price for this divisive politics. ________________________________ From: Pawan Durani To: Asit asitreds Cc: rajendra bhat ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 7 November, 2008 3:02:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 Anything which co relates with hindu / nationalistic views shud be banned. Wonder Asit never asked for banning SIMI & JKLF.   On 11/7/08, Asit asitreds wrote: i agree with suddha these are portents of fascism communal lumpen organisations like abvp should be banned asit On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Hi, Shuddha, > >  why are you shocked, is it because you thought that it is privilege of > NSUI and left students wings only have right to be violent.? But again, it > is not sure if ABVP students were violent as media and secular are always > partisan and attribute all violence to hindus only.! > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 9:26:40 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >     reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >     reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at >     reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >   1. Re: Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and    RSS in >       Delhi University (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) >   2. Condemn the violence (Pawan Durani) >   3. Re: Condemn the violence (Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP >     and    RSS in Delhi University > To: hany babu > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes; >     format=flowed > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > to be closed is deeply regrettable.. They have profoundly compromised > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > which they have conducted themselves. > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate.. They have > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > compliant authorities and the police. > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > pathetic weakness.. They will not prevail. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > *Press Note* > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > * * > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > Akhil > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > in Delhi > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > victims. > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > teachers of > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > and > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > 22 Arts > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > College, > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > of the > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > realised > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > ABVP goondas > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > Sharma (of > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > this > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > taken due > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > who were > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > who were > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > of the > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > the > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > could > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > did the > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > continuing > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > meeting > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > presence of > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > permission, > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > break > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > Murdabad, > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > particular > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > meeting from > > concluding successfully. > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > of ABVP > > *to > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > Last > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > who once > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > to hold > > meetings and discussions. > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > threat > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > secular and > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > and the > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > fear. If we > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > left to us > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > and Delhi > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > today's > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > University, at > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > against ABVP > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > Ratan, > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > goondaism and > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > similar > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > University Community > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > universitycommun... > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com* > > -- > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > mdmahtaba... > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 > From: "Pawan Durani" > Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: >     <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f at mail.gmail..com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > * * > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > Akhil > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > in Delhi > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > victims. > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > teachers of > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > and > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > 22 Arts > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > College, > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > of the > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > realised > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > Sharma (of > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > this > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > taken due > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > who were > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > who were > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > of the > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > the > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > could > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > did the > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > continuing > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > meeting > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > presence of > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > permission, > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > break > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > Murdabad, > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > particular > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > meeting from > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > of ABVP > > > *to > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > Last > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > who once > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > to hold > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > threat > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > secular and > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > and the > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > fear. If we > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > left to us > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > and Delhi > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > today's > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > University, at > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > against ABVP > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > Ratan, > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > goondaism and > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > similar > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > universitycommun... > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com* > > > -- > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > > mdmahtaba... > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > To: "sarai list" > Message-ID: >     <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on > 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the > same > to the contrary. > > As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to leave > the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It > was > an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just to > provoke the common student. > > It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful protesters > which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP activist > was injured in the entire protest. > > The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior > information, and no permission was taken from them or the University > authorities. > > Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't > prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face > just trial. > > Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. Who > decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of > the > panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. > > Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't > tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the > student community. > > I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > > the paid up writers > > > > Pawan > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > > Akhil > > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > > in Delhi > > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > > victims. > > > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > > teachers of > > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > > and > > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > > 22 Arts > > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would > be > > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > > College, > > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > > of the > > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > > realised > > > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > > Sharma (of > > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > > this > > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > > taken due > > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke > the > > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > > who were > > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > > who were > > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > > of the > > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > > the > > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > > could > > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > > did the > > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > > continuing > > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > > meeting > > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > > presence of > > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > > permission, > > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > > break > > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > > Murdabad, > > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > > particular > > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > > meeting from > > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > > of ABVP > > > > *to > > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > > Last > > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > > who once > > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > > to hold > > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > > threat > > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > > secular and > > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > > and the > > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack > on > > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for > the > > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > > fear. If we > > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > > left to us > > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > > and Delhi > > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > > today's > > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > > University, at > > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > > against ABVP > > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > > Ratan, > > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > > goondaism and > > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > > similar > > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > > universitycommun... > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com* > > > > -- > > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM=0A> > > mdmahtaba...< > http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ > > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com > > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile..blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > ******************************************* > > > >      Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 15:40:51 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:40:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811070132w66552229lc6c925f66d1d815a@mail.gmail.com> References: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811070132w66552229lc6c925f66d1d815a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: in any democratic civilised society religious bigotry is anti people it applies to all fundamentalists asit On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Anything which co relates with hindu / nationalistic views shud be banned. > > Wonder Asit never asked for banning SIMI & JKLF. > > > On 11/7/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > >> i agree with suddha these are portents of fascism communal lumpen >> organisations like abvp should be banned >> asit >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, rajendra bhat > >wrote: >> >> > Hi, Shuddha, >> > >> > why are you shocked, is it because you thought that it is privilege of >> > NSUI and left students wings only have right to be violent.? But again, >> it >> > is not sure if ABVP students were violent as media and secular are >> always >> > partisan and attribute all violence to hindus only.! >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 9:26:40 PM >> > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 >> > >> > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >> > reader-list at sarai.net >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > reader-list-owner at sarai.net >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in >> > Delhi University (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) >> > 2. Condemn the violence (Pawan Durani) >> > 3. Re: Condemn the violence (Aditya Raj Kaul) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 >> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP >> > and RSS in Delhi University >> > To: hany babu >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Message-ID: >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes; >> > format=flowed >> > >> > Dear all, dear hany babu, >> > >> > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >> > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >> > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >> > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >> > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >> > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >> > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >> > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >> > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >> > to be closed is deeply regrettable.. They have profoundly compromised >> > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >> > which they have conducted themselves. >> > >> > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >> > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >> > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >> > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >> > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate.. They have >> > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >> > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >> > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >> > compliant authorities and the police. >> > >> > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >> > pathetic weakness.. They will not prevail. >> > >> > best >> > >> > Shuddha >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >> > >> > > *Press Note* >> > > >> > > *University Community, Delhi University* >> > > >> > > *6th November 2008* >> > > >> > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >> > > >> > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >> > > >> > > Dear media persons and journalists, >> > > >> > > * * >> > > >> > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >> > > Akhil >> > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >> > > in Delhi >> > > University, in which members of the press community were also made >> > > victims. >> > > >> > > The University Community, an independent group of students and >> > > teachers of >> > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >> > > and >> > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >> > > 22 Arts >> > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be >> > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >> > > >> > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >> > > College, >> > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >> > > of the >> > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >> > > realised >> > > >> > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >> > > ABVP goondas >> > > >> > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >> > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >> > > Sharma (of >> > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >> > > this >> > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >> > > taken due >> > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >> > > >> > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the >> > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >> > > who were >> > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >> > > who were >> > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >> > > of the >> > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >> > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >> > > the >> > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >> > > could >> > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >> > > did the >> > > University administration side with? ABVP. >> > > >> > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >> > > continuing >> > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >> > > meeting >> > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >> > > presence of >> > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >> > > permission, >> > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >> > > break >> > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >> > > Murdabad, >> > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >> > > particular >> > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >> > > meeting from >> > > concluding successfully. >> > > >> > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >> > > of ABVP >> > > *to >> > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >> > > Last >> > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were >> > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >> > > who once >> > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >> > > to hold >> > > meetings and discussions. >> > > >> > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >> > > threat >> > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >> > > secular and >> > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >> > > and the >> > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on >> > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the >> > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >> > > fear. If we >> > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >> > > left to us >> > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a >> > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >> > > and Delhi >> > > Police support in the fight against fascism? >> > > >> > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this >> > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >> > > today's >> > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >> > > University, at >> > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >> > > >> > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >> > > against ABVP >> > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >> > > Ratan, >> > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >> > > >> > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >> > > goondaism and >> > > action against the people found guilty. * >> > > >> > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >> > > similar >> > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >> > > >> > > University Community >> > > >> > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >> > > universitycommun...> > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >> > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > > @gmail.com* >> > > -- >> > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >> > > mdmahtaba...> > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >> > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > > @gmail.com >> > > Phone:+91-9811209345 >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 >> > From: "Pawan Durani" >> > Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence >> > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Message-ID: >> > <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f at mail.gmail..com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" >> > >> > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >> > >> > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people >> or >> > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is >> muscle >> > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >> > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists >> and >> > the paid up writers >> > >> > Pawan >> > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > > >> > > Dear all, dear hany babu, >> > > >> > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >> > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >> > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent >> > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that >> > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >> > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >> > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >> > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >> > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) >> > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >> > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >> > > which they have conducted themselves. >> > > >> > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has >> > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >> > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >> > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >> > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >> > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >> > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >> > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >> > > compliant authorities and the police. >> > > >> > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >> > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >> > > >> > > best >> > > >> > > Shuddha >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >> > > >> > > > *Press Note* >> > > > >> > > > *University Community, Delhi University* >> > > > >> > > > *6th November 2008* >> > > > >> > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >> > > > >> > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >> > > > >> > > > Dear media persons and journalists, >> > > > >> > > > * * >> > > > >> > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by >> > > > Akhil >> > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >> > > > in Delhi >> > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made >> > > > victims. >> > > > >> > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and >> > > > teachers of >> > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism >> > > > and >> > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >> > > > 22 Arts >> > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would >> be >> > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >> > > > >> > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >> > > > College, >> > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >> > > > of the >> > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we >> > > > realised >> > > > >> > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >> > > > ABVP goondas >> > > > >> > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >> > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >> > > > Sharma (of >> > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of >> > > > this >> > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >> > > > taken due >> > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >> > > > >> > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke >> the >> > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >> > > > who were >> > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >> > > > who were >> > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one >> > > > of the >> > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was >> > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and >> > > > the >> > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting >> > > > could >> > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >> > > > did the >> > > > University administration side with? ABVP. >> > > > >> > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >> > > > continuing >> > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >> > > > meeting >> > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >> > > > presence of >> > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >> > > > permission, >> > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to >> > > > break >> > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >> > > > Murdabad, >> > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >> > > > particular >> > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >> > > > meeting from >> > > > concluding successfully. >> > > > >> > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >> > > > of ABVP >> > > > *to >> > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. >> > > > Last >> > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department >> were >> > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >> > > > who once >> > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >> > > > to hold >> > > > meetings and discussions. >> > > > >> > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the >> > > > threat >> > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >> > > > secular and >> > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >> > > > and the >> > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack >> on >> > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for >> the >> > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >> > > > fear. If we >> > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >> > > > left to us >> > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold >> a >> > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >> > > > and Delhi >> > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? >> > > > >> > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against >> this >> > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >> > > > today's >> > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >> > > > University, at >> > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >> > > > >> > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >> > > > against ABVP >> > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >> > > > Ratan, >> > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >> > > > >> > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >> > > > goondaism and >> > > > action against the people found guilty. * >> > > > >> > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >> > > > similar >> > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >> > > > >> > > > University Community >> > > > >> > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >> > > > universitycommun...> > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >> > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > > > @gmail.com* >> > > > -- >> > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM >> > > > mdmahtaba...< >> http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ >> > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >> > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > > > @gmail.com >> > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: >> > > >> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > > Raqs Media Collective >> > > shuddha at sarai.net >> > > www.sarai.net >> > > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 >> > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence >> > To: "sarai list" >> > Message-ID: >> > <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace at mail.gmail.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" >> > >> > Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on >> > 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the >> > same >> > to the contrary. >> > >> > As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to >> leave >> > the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It >> > was >> > an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just >> to >> > provoke the common student. >> > >> > It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful >> protesters >> > which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP >> activist >> > was injured in the entire protest. >> > >> > The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior >> > information, and no permission was taken from them or the University >> > authorities. >> > >> > Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't >> > prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face >> > just trial. >> > >> > Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. >> Who >> > decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of >> > the >> > panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. >> > >> > Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't >> > tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the >> > student community. >> > >> > I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. >> > >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > > >> > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. >> > > >> > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people >> or >> > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is >> muscle >> > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the >> > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists >> and >> > > the paid up writers >> > > >> > > Pawan >> > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, >> > > > >> > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on >> > > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of >> > > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of >> violent >> > > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident >> that >> > > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of >> > > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain >> > > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice >> > > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for >> > > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and >> granted) >> > > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised >> > > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in >> > > > which they have conducted themselves. >> > > > >> > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and >> has >> > > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. >> > > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the >> > > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know >> > > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have >> > > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no >> > > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, >> > > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and >> > > > compliant authorities and the police. >> > > > >> > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their >> > > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. >> > > > >> > > > best >> > > > >> > > > Shuddha >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > *Press Note* >> > > > > >> > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* >> > > > > >> > > > > *6th November 2008* >> > > > > >> > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* >> > > > > >> > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* >> > > > > >> > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, >> > > > > >> > > > > * * >> > > > > >> > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism >> by >> > > > > Akhil >> > > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) >> > > > > in Delhi >> > > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made >> > > > > victims. >> > > > > >> > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and >> > > > > teachers of >> > > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, >> Fascism >> > > > > and >> > > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. >> > > > > 22 Arts >> > > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces >> would >> > be >> > > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. >> > > > > >> > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain >> > > > > College, >> > > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one >> > > > > of the >> > > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that >> we >> > > > > realised >> > > > > >> > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – >> > > > > ABVP goondas >> > > > > >> > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the >> > > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur >> > > > > Sharma (of >> > > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer >> of >> > > > > this >> > > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had >> > > > > taken due >> > > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. >> > > > > >> > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke >> > the >> > > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons >> > > > > who were >> > > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, >> > > > > who were >> > > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of >> one >> > > > > of the >> > > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she >> was >> > > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor >> and >> > > > > the >> > > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the >> meeting >> > > > > could >> > > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who >> > > > > did the >> > > > > University administration side with? ABVP. >> > > > > >> > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on >> > > > > continuing >> > > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the >> > > > > meeting >> > > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the >> > > > > presence of >> > > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their >> > > > > permission, >> > > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried >> to >> > > > > break >> > > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan >> > > > > Murdabad, >> > > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in >> > > > > particular >> > > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the >> > > > > meeting from >> > > > > concluding successfully. >> > > > > >> > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort >> > > > > of ABVP >> > > > > *to >> > > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the >> University*. >> > > > > Last >> > > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department >> were >> > > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons >> > > > > who once >> > > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right >> > > > > to hold >> > > > > meetings and discussions. >> > > > > >> > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to >> the >> > > > > threat >> > > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the >> > > > > secular and >> > > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, >> > > > > and the >> > > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread >> attack >> > on >> > > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for >> > the >> > > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and >> > > > > fear. If we >> > > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is >> > > > > left to us >> > > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to >> hold a >> > > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration >> > > > > and Delhi >> > > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? >> > > > > >> > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against >> this >> > > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of >> > > > > today's >> > > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the >> > > > > University, at >> > > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* >> > > > > >> > > > > *1. **The University administration should lodge a FIR >> > > > > against ABVP >> > > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh >> > > > > Ratan, >> > > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* >> > > > > >> > > > > *2. **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and >> > > > > goondaism and >> > > > > action against the people found guilty. * >> > > > > >> > > > > *3. **To give us assurance that future public meetings on >> > > > > similar >> > > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * >> > > > > >> > > > > University Community >> > > > > >> > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, >> > > > > universitycommun...> > > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% >> > > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > > > > @gmail.com* >> > > > > -- >> > > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM=0A> > > mdmahtaba...< >> > http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ >> > > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- >> > > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> >> > > > > @gmail.com >> > > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 >> > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai. >> .net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > List archive: >> > > > >> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > > > Raqs Media Collective >> > > > shuddha at sarai.net >> > > > www.sarai.net >> > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> > Cell - +91-9873297834 >> > >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > reader-list mailing list >> > reader-list at sarai.net >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > >> > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 >> > ******************************************* >> > >> > >> > >> > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to >> > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 16:14:48 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 16:14:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811070019u3dd460b7t3215ca6d78248898@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811070019u3dd460b7t3215ca6d78248898@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811070244q2f95b708i8d1dbb1615f3a89@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr. Prakash Ray, Even though I think you are 'just nobody' who could put questions to me; I'll answer your questions and clear all doubts. The pictures of the terrorist Yasin Malik on net put by me are Courtesy Reuters and PTI. I just copy pasted the title they had mentioned. Reply to your questions, Mr. Investigator:- a) Yes, I was present in the meeting as I was invited. But, I reached around 11:30 just after the spitting incident and before the ABVP activists led by DUSU President entered the premises. b) I've pictures of this incident after ABVP had entered. Nupur tried to persuade Geelani to leave and at the same time SFI-AISA goons started to clash with ABVP activists. My friend HT Lensman Sushil was there before and has many other pics which are out sequence-wise in today's HT. My clicked pictures have appeared in today's Metro Now. You can grab a copy to view them. c) I personally don't know the person. But, someone from the audience was saying he is a 'Jamia student' with leftist background. I suppose Nupur has given her take on NDTV and Times-Now yesterday. Hope your investigation yield's positive result and less time consuming. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear Aditya Raj Kaul, > > I was going through your pictures and the pictures poste by you on the net, > particularly the pics showing black ink thrown on JKLF leader Yasin Malik > where you say that the ink was thrown by unidentified 'activists'. In a > response to Aarti's post here on the list, you tell her ro 'shut up' since > she was not there in SAR Gilani's meeting in DU. > I would like to ask you: (a) whether you were present in the meeting, (b) > if > yes, can u kindly share some pictures of spitting on Gilani with us, and > (c) > Can you and your good friend Nupur Sharma identify the 'unidentified > activist'.... > Meanwhile I am also trying to find out. > > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Nov 7 16:39:49 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 16:39:49 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 References: <180128.19713.qm@web94901.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70811070132w66552229lc6c925f66d1d815a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <529201.91148.qm@web94915.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Asit,    to be good human one should know what is right and wrong, for that faith is one of the ways, but when faith is practised which is permissible as per the rights in the constitution of free India,if the followers of faith try to impose their faith on others that is to be condemned, as it is bigotry.  Now look at Congress party, it has  a high command made up of one single person, all those who are "close" to this high command are all belonging to only one faith, even when they are duly not elected, high command prefers these lameducks as they are loyal to that one person, not to the citizens and the nation. Examples are many, but just a glance will do at the public life of these individuals who use all fair and foul means to increase the numerical strength of that faith so that they can impose the will of one high command on entire citizenry. Divisive politics of nurturing vote banks based on caste, commune and region and language has been the hallmark of this party which no longer has the originals individuals who were anywhere near the freedom struggle.   Unfortunately, left for its survival had to support this party  with one point agenda of keeping out "communal" BJP but forgot that this party, oldest is now party of kickbacks.? ________________________________ From: Asit asitreds To: Pawan Durani Cc: rajendra bhat ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 7 November, 2008 3:40:51 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 in any democratic civilised society religious bigotry is anti people it applies to all fundamentalists asit On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: Anything which co relates with hindu / nationalistic views shud be banned. Wonder Asit never asked for banning SIMI & JKLF.   On 11/7/08, Asit asitreds wrote: i agree with suddha these are portents of fascism communal lumpen organisations like abvp should be banned asit On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Hi, Shuddha, > >  why are you shocked, is it because you thought that it is privilege of > NSUI and left students wings only have right to be violent.? But again, it > is not sure if ABVP students were violent as media and secular are always > partisan and attribute all violence to hindus only.! > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, 6 November, 2008 9:26:40 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >     reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >     reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at >     reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >   1. Re: Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and    RSS in >       Delhi University (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) >   2. Condemn the violence (Pawan Durani) >   3. Re: Condemn the violence (Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Press Note : Condemn the vandalism of ABVP >     and    RSS in Delhi University > To: hany babu > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252"; delsp=yes; >     format=flowed > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > to be closed is deeply regrettable.. They have profoundly compromised > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > which they have conducted themselves. > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate.. They have > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > compliant authorities and the police. > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > pathetic weakness.. They will not prevail. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > *Press Note* > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > * * > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > Akhil > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > in Delhi > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > victims. > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > teachers of > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > and > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > 22 Arts > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > College, > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > of the > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > realised > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > ABVP goondas > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > Sharma (of > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > this > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > taken due > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > who were > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > who were > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > of the > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > the > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > could > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > did the > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > continuing > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > meeting > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there.. *In the > > presence of > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > permission, > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > break > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > Murdabad, > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > particular > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > meeting from > > concluding successfully. > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > of ABVP > > *to > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > Last > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > who once > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > to hold > > meetings and discussions. > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > threat > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > secular and > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > and the > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for the > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > fear. If we > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > left to us > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > and Delhi > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > today's > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > University, at > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > against ABVP > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > Ratan, > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > goondaism and > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > similar > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > University Community > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > universitycommun... > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com* > > -- > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > mdmahtaba... > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > @gmail.com > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:58:48 +0530 > From: "Pawan Durani" > Subject: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: >     <6b79f1a70811060728j6ec5828bx5638437efd82657f at mail.gmail..com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > the paid up writers > > Pawan > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > * * > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > Akhil > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > in Delhi > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > victims. > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > teachers of > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > and > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > 22 Arts > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would be > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > College, > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > of the > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > realised > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > Sharma (of > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > this > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > taken due > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke the > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > who were > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > who were > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > of the > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > the > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > could > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > did the > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > continuing > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > meeting > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > presence of > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > permission, > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > break > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > Murdabad, > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > particular > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > meeting from > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > of ABVP > > > *to > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > Last > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > who once > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > to hold > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > threat > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > secular and > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > and the > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack on > > > minorities across the country.. It is they who were responsible for the > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > fear. If we > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > left to us > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > and Delhi > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > today's > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > University, at > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > against ABVP > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > Ratan, > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > *2..      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > goondaism and > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > similar > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > universitycommun... > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com* > > > -- > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > > > mdmahtaba... > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > @gmail.com > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:26:26 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemn the violence > To: "sarai list" > Message-ID: >     <6353c690811060756m3ed0e674p19a98b4833800ace at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Since when did S.A.R. Geelani become an expert in giving a lecture on > 'Fascism' and 'Terrorism'. Though he maybe the practical example of the > same > to the contrary. > > As per NDTV interview, DUSU President had politely asked Geelani to leave > the premises as the organisers had no prior permission to this event. It > was > an illegally organised programme on a communally sensitive issue. Just to > provoke the common student. > > It was the SFI and AISA goons who clashed with the ABVP peaceful protesters > which led to violence. And as on record, only one that too an ABVP activist > was injured in the entire protest. > > The local SHO Mr. Joshi, is on record to say that they had no prior > information, and no permission was taken from them or the University > authorities. > > Lastly, S.A.R. Geelani was released on 'technical grounds'. This doesn't > prove his innocence in totality. He still is a culprit and needs to face > just trial. > > Geelani has known links with Kashmiri Separatists and even terrorists. Who > decided in the first place to invite him and that too as the chairman of > the > panel, making mockery of the Delhi University. > > Such anti-social and anti-India elements need to be ignored. We won't > tolerate such separatist forces with divisive policies to brainwash the > student community. > > I condemn his presence in the Delhi University. > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 11/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Yes, I agree with Shuddha. Any kind of violence must me condemned. > > > > So similar to Kashmiris who also indulge in violence by killing people or > > damaging public and Govt property.All that these kashmiris have is muscle > > power, Gun power , throat power,meaningless and empty slogans, and the > > patronage of corrupted and compliant authorities , pseudo secularists and > > the paid up writers > > > > Pawan > > Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind > > > > > > > > On 11/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, dear hany babu, > > > > > > I am shocked to read this note. Clearly the ABVP and its allies on > > > the campuses of our universities have become nothing short of > > > criminal gangs that seek to impose their writ through acts of violent > > > intimidation. No words are strong enough to condemn the incident that > > > has been reported below. It only goes to show that the 'culture' of > > > 'cultural nationalists' of the ABVP variety is synonymous with plain > > > thuggery. That the concerned university authorities (the pro-vice > > > chancellor and the proctor) acted in a partisan manner and asked for > > > this meeting (for which prior permission had been sought and granted) > > > to be closed is deeply regrettable. They have profoundly compromised > > > their integrity and the dignity of their position by the manner in > > > which they have conducted themselves. > > > > > > In any given public meeting, the public is invited to attend, and has > > > the right to ask questions and make critical comments if necessary. > > > That the ABVP chose not to do this, but to attack and disrupt the > > > meeting, and insult and harm the speakers, says all we need to know > > > about their capacity to enter and engage into a debate. They have > > > nothing to say. They have no facts, no arguments, no reasons, no > > > evidence. All that they have is muscle power, throat power, > > > meaningless and empty slogans, and the patronage of corrupted and > > > compliant authorities and the police. > > > > > > This should be seen, not as a sign of their strength, but of their > > > pathetic weakness. They will not prevail. > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 06-Nov-08, at 6:14 PM, hany babu wrote: > > > > > > > *Press Note* > > > > > > > > *University Community, Delhi University* > > > > > > > > *6th November 2008* > > > > > > > > *Condemn the vandalism of ABVP and RSS in Delhi University!* > > > > > > > > *Defend the freedom of speech and our democratic rights!* > > > > > > > > Dear media persons and journalists, > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice the latest incident of vandalism by > > > > Akhil > > > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad goons (ABVP, student wing of the RSS) > > > > in Delhi > > > > University, in which members of the press community were also made > > > > victims. > > > > > > > > The University Community, an independent group of students and > > > > teachers of > > > > Delhi University, had organised a meeting on "*Communalism, Fascism > > > > and > > > > Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" on 6th November 2008 at Room No. > > > > 22 Arts > > > > Faculty. It did not come as a surprise that right-wing forces would > be > > > > opposed to any meaningful discussion on these issues. > > > > > > > > As the Chair of the meeting, SAR Geelani (lecturer at Zakir Husain > > > > College, > > > > University of Delhi), came inside the room and took his seat, one > > > > of the > > > > ABVP members came and *spat on his face twice*. It was then that we > > > > realised > > > > > > > > that this was a planned attempt to disrupt the public meeting – > > > > ABVP goondas > > > > > > > > were sitting inside the room and they rose to hurl abuses at the > > > > participants and physically attack them. DUSU President Nupur > > > > Sharma (of > > > > ABVP) entered the room and declared that SAR Geelani, a lecturer of > > > > this > > > > University, could not speak in the University! This, when we had > > > > taken due > > > > permission from the University authorities to conduct the meeting. > > > > > > > > The ABVP goons attacked the women students and participants, broke > the > > > > microphone and hurled chairs. They also manhandled media persons > > > > who were > > > > covering the meeting. Two journalists from Tehelka and Mail Today, > > > > who were > > > > speakers at the meeting, were threatened by ABVP. The mother of one > > > > of the > > > > media persons who was present had to leave the venue because she was > > > > terrorised by the goons. At this point, the Pro-Vice Chancellor and > > > > the > > > > Proctor called one of the organisers and told him *that the meeting > > > > could > > > > not go on because it was creating a 'law and order' problem. *Who > > > > did the > > > > University administration side with? ABVP. > > > > > > > > It was the courage and fortitude of the audience who insisted on > > > > continuing > > > > the meeting. The ABVP goons were pushed out of the room and the > > > > meeting > > > > continued behind closed doors. ABVP did not stop there. *In the > > > > presence of > > > > a large contingent of Delhi Police, and we dare say with their > > > > permission, > > > > they threw stones at the room, broke all the window panes, tried to > > > > break > > > > the doors and continued abusing – *Goli maaro saalon ko, Pakistan > > > > Murdabad, > > > > Vande Mataram – were some of the better ones*. SAR Geelani, in > > > > particular > > > > was targeted. *However, they could not scare us and stop the > > > > meeting from > > > > concluding successfully. > > > > > > > > We wish to bring to your notice that this is not the first effort > > > > of ABVP > > > > *to > > > > snatch all the democratic space available to us in the University*. > > > > Last > > > > year, the faculty members and students of the History Department were > > > > targeted only because of a text in their syllabus. The same goons > > > > who once > > > > attacked our right to study history texts today attacked our right > > > > to hold > > > > meetings and discussions. > > > > > > > > During a meeting on communalism and fascism, we were witness to the > > > > threat > > > > and danger posed by these communal and fascist forces to the > > > > secular and > > > > democratic fabric of our country. The parent organisation of ABVP, > > > > and the > > > > politics espoused by them, is responsible for the widespread attack > on > > > > minorities across the country. It is they who were responsible for > the > > > > genocide in Gujarat and for spreading the politics of hate and > > > > fear. If we > > > > remain silent today, *we will lose whatever little space that is > > > > left to us > > > > in the University*. Do we need to take permission from ABVP to hold a > > > > meeting in the University? Who does the University administration > > > > and Delhi > > > > Police support in the fight against fascism? > > > > > > > > *We call upon the entire University community to protest against this > > > > assault on academic freedom and democratic rights. In protest of > > > > today's > > > > events, we are organising a protest march tomorrow at the > > > > University, at > > > > 11:00 a.m. at Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty. We demand* > > > > > > > > *1.      **The University administration should lodge a FIR > > > > against ABVP > > > > members, especially persons like Nupur Sharma, Vikas Dahiya, Desh > > > > Ratan, > > > > Sonu Singh and Ashutosh.* > > > > > > > > *2.      **Time-bound enquiry into this act of vandalism and > > > > goondaism and > > > > action against the people found guilty. * > > > > > > > > *3.      **To give us assurance that future public meetings on > > > > similar > > > > issues will not be disrupted by these goons. * > > > > > > > > University Community > > > > > > > > *Contact Persons: Umar Khalid 9873961701, Harsh Bora 9811855618, > > > > universitycommun... > > > GB&_done=/group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de% > > > > 3Fhl%3Den-GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com* > > > > -- > > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM=0A> > > mdmahtaba...< > http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en-GB&_done=/ > > > > group/greenyouth/browse_thread/thread/29a70db7becff1de%3Fhl%3Den- > > > > GB&msg=bd0acd545ae5e08f> > > > > @gmail.com > > > > Phone:+91-9811209345 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai..net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile..blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 45 > ******************************************* > > > >      Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get your own website and domain for just Rs.1,999/year.* Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From difusion at medialab-prado.es Fri Nov 7 17:23:18 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:53:18 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Projects> Light, Space and Perception Work Group (Spain) Message-ID: <49142C2E.2020304@medialab-prado.es> *MEDIALAB-PRADO* Plaza de las Letras C/ Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid (Spain) +34 913 692 303 www.medialab-prado.es *Light, Space and Perception Work Group* Entries' Deadline: November 30, 2008 Open call for collaborators: November 15, 2008 Open call for the submission of proposals to be collaboratively developed during two three-day workshops* (January and March, 2009). This call is part of the activities of the Light, Space and Perception work group , led by artists Daniel Canogar, Julian Oliver and Pablo Valbuena, and supported by Mediala-Prado in Madrid (Spain). The goal is to work with local developers to create prototypes with the aid of these three instructors and the interested collaborators. Core themes: * Light and the city. Urbanism, media-façades, the fusion of physical and digital urban spaces. * Augmented Reality, the use of projections on three-dimensional surfaces and physical objects, the use of light as a material. * Set and stage design and the creation of atmospheres through the projection of light: perspective, optical illusions, etc. * Investigation of the qualities of our visual perception and its limits. * Development of new light technologies for artistic purposes. More information and online submission form: http://medialab-prado.es/article/luz_espacio_y_percepcion_convocatoria_de_proyectos Contact: difusion at medialab-prado.es * Medialab-Prado does not cover lodging and travel expenses for selected participants. From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 17:38:19 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:38:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Deprived, sweepers seek permission for mass suicide! Message-ID: <4fcaee300811070408p27bd4587g7749eca1968c861d@mail.gmail.com> A look at this too... http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Deprived--sweepers-seek-permission-for-mass-suicide/380699 Deprived, sweepers seek permission for mass suicide Express News Service Posted: Nov 03, 2008 at 0247 hrs IST Ahmedabad, November 2: Sweepers from the Valmiki and Dalit community of Gandhinagar have written to the President of India, Pratibha Patil, requesting her to permit them to commit mass suicide. Deprived of proper wages, housing, sanitation and other basic amenities, about 35 sweepers have signed the petition for mass self-immolation. There are 164 manual scavengers in the city. Out of these, 94 are on record, whereas 70 nameless labourers have been working in the capital city since 1992. These workers earn Rs 30 per day and work for 8-10 hours instead of the promised four hours of work. After repeated appeals to the state government, the workers started a campaign in August this year to protest against the injustice being done to them. As many as 94 labourers have been involved in this campaign, but it has had little impact on the government. The workers have been toiling hard for years to manage two meals a day and educate their children. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 19:15:03 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:15:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: sonia jabbar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: ashish zutshi Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:14:08 +0000 To: Subject: sonia jabbar At least in lajpat nagar , jangpura, bhogal ... you find a kashmiri muslim in every alternate house. They come & stay here just becoz India tolerates them. Kashmiri muslims & kashmiri pandits will again live together , provided Independent Journalists like you stop writing absolute lies. Next time when you land at srinagar airport , Pls don`t proceed to maisuma residence of YM and certain downtown areas, I suggest you visit certain places where your so called Mahatma Gandhi of Maisuma ( YM) has killed Innocent people. The problem is when educated muslims like you start patronizing terrorists like YM. Give the world a slice of your life. Get a Live.in id Check it out! ------ End of Forwarded Message From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 19:22:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:22:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: sonia jabbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811070552h6d224258k847ca221a8d070fa@mail.gmail.com> I find it very revolting when an offline conversation is posted on a public discussion forum. The nature of conversation may be anything , but these go against some very basic netiquettes. We all should restrain from doing this. Pawan On 11/7/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: ashish zutshi > Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:14:08 +0000 > To: > Subject: sonia jabbar > > > At least in lajpat nagar , jangpura, bhogal ... you find a kashmiri muslim > in every alternate house. > They come & stay here just becoz India tolerates them. > > Kashmiri muslims & kashmiri pandits will again live together , provided > Independent Journalists like you stop writing absolute lies. > > Next time when you land at srinagar airport , Pls don`t proceed to maisuma > residence of YM and certain downtown areas, I suggest you visit certain > places where your so called Mahatma Gandhi of Maisuma ( YM) has killed > Innocent people. The problem is when educated muslims like you start > patronizing terrorists like YM. > > > > > > > Give the world a slice of your life. Get a Live.in id Check it out! > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 22:42:14 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:12:14 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In (NY Times) Message-ID: <48A6EFBDC32B44DC9B6B46B642887F17@tara> OP-ED COLUMNIST. Change I Can Believe In. By DAVID BROOKS. I have dreams. I may seem like a boring pundit whose most exotic fantasies involve G.A.O. reports, but deep down, I have dreams. And right now I'm dreaming of the successful presidency this country needs. I'm dreaming of an administration led by Barack Obama, but which stretches beyond the normal Democratic base. It makes time for moderate voters, suburban voters, rural voters and even people who voted for the other guy. The administration of my dreams understands where the country is today. Its members know that, as Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center put it on 'The NewsHour,' 'This was an election where the middle asserted itself. There was 'no sign' of a 'movement to the left. Only 17 percent of Americans trust the government to do the right thing most or all of the time, according to an October New York Times/CBS News poll. So the members of my dream Obama administration understand that they cannot impose an ideological program the country does not accept. New presidents in 1932 and 1964 could presuppose a basic level of trust in government. But today, as Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution observes, the new president is going to have to build that trust deliberately and step by step. Walking into the Obama White House of my dreams will be like walking into the Gates Foundation. The people there will be ostentatiously pragmatic and data-driven. They'll hunt good ideas like venture capitalists. They'll have no faith in all-powerful bureaucrats issuing edicts from the center. Instead, they'll use that language of decentralized networks, bottom-up reform and scalable innovation. They will actually believe in that stuff Obama says about postpartisan politics. That means there won't just be a few token liberal Republicans in marginal jobs. There will be people like Robert Gates at Defense and Ray LaHood, Stuart Butler, Diane Ravitch, Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Jim Talent at other important jobs. The Obama administration of my dreams will insist that Congressional Democrats reinstate bipartisan conference committees. They'll invite G.O.P. leaders to the White House for real meetings and then re-invite them, even if they give hostile press conferences on the White House driveway. They'll do things conservatives disagree with, but they'll also show that they're not toadies of the liberal interest groups. They'll insist on merit pay and preserving No Child Left Behind's accountability standards, no matter what the teachers' unions say. They'll postpone contentious fights on things like card check legislation. Most of all, they'll take significant action on the problems facing the country without causing a mass freak-out among voters to the right of Nancy Pelosi. They'll do this by explaining to the American people that there are two stages to their domestic policy thinking, the short-term and the long-term. The short-term strategy will have two goals: to mitigate the pain of the recession and the change the culture of Washington. The first step will be to complete the round of stimulus packages that are sure to come. Then they'll take up two ideas that already have bipartisan support: middle-class tax relief and an energy package. The current economic and energy crisis is an opportunity to do what was not done in similar circumstances in 1974 -- transform this country's energy supply. A comprehensive bill -- encompassing everything from off-shore drilling to green technologies -- would stimulate the economy and nurture new political coalitions. When the recession shows signs of bottoming out, then my dream administration would begin phase two. The long-term strategy would be about restoring fiscal balances and reforming fundamental institutions. By this time, the budget deficit could be zooming past $1.5 trillion a year. The U.S. will be borrowing oceans of money from abroad. My dream administration will show that it understands that the remedy for a culture of debt is not more long-term debt. It will side with those who worry that long-term deficits could lead to ruinous interest-rate hikes. My dream administration will announce a Budget Rebalancing Initiative. Somebody like Representative Jim Cooper would go through the budget and take out the programs and tax expenditures that don't work. If we have no spending cuts, then we're saying government is perfect. Nobody believes that,' Cooper says. Having built bipartisan relationships, having shown some fiscal toughness, having seen the economy through the tough times, my dream administration will then be in a position to take up health care reform, tax reform, education reform and a long-range infrastructure initiative. These reforms may have to start slow and on the cheap. But real reform would be imaginable since politics as we know it would be transformed. Is it all just a dream? I hope not. In any case, please be quiet and let me have my moment. From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 22:52:11 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:22:11 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America References: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> <564b2fca0811051216u7943c3afl4011a2d35bb708d2@mail.gmail.com> <36CBC5066C09462DB562FF503CDA1E3C@tara> <564b2fca0811051938t3f2efb19o50550af8134418ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Naga and all. Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider the US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism. There are more to come. And more to be won. As Dushyant Kumar said Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." (This wall made of sand has started shaking. But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. But sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nagraj Adve" To: "taraprakash" Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to undermine, would not have come in 1991. The rejection of Naidu in AP in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in agriculture. One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 million (33 to 41 million); the bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely quote at the end of it. Naga On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope after > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud to > be > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" > > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world looks > at > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the world. > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more room > to > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot > globalization. > > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or > more > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we have > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place without > Dick and Bush. > > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh mostly > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and > his > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. > There > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope > that > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said > during > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism has > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; > yes > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: > > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. > > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nagraj Adve" > To: "gautam bhan" > Cc: "sarai list" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > > >> Dear Gautam, >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >> become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >> out of their jhopad pattis. >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >> that Obama has won. >> Naga >> >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >>> wrote for elsewhere. >>> >>> - gautam >>> >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >>> >>> A Letter from America >>> >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >>> >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >>> >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that >>> has elected Obama. >>> >>> >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >>> >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >>> >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >>> change can understand and support. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 23:14:59 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 23:44:59 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In Message-ID: In Bangladesh, we have a creature called bohurupi, many colored, many faces, chameleon. Now that it appears the Army is finally giving in and allowing elections to happen December 18th and return to democracy, many bohurupis will reverse their support of 1/11 and emerge as democrats. In America, David Brooks is one such bohurupi. Brought into the NYT op-ed page in the face of ferocious and relentless conservative attacks on the so-called "liberal" bias of the paper, he proceeded to peddle asinine, conservative-lite pap over the last few years, including many justifications of Bush domestic policy platforms, and even some simpering on foreign policy. Like Thomas Friedman, who will never admit that he was one of the many pundits ("we break it we own it" and oh yes "countries with mcdonalds don't go to war w. each other"), who rah-rah'ed the train wreck of last 8 years, Brooks will reinvent himself as a newborn Obama fan. From: "taraprakash" > > OP-ED COLUMNIST. Change I Can Believe In. > By DAVID BROOKS. I have dreams. I may seem like a boring pundit whose most > exotic fantasies involve G.A.O. reports, but deep down, I have dreams. And > right now I'm dreaming of the successful presidency this country needs. I'm > dreaming of an administration led by Barack Obama, but which stretches > beyond the normal Democratic base. It makes time for moderate voters, > suburban voters, rural voters and even people who voted for the other guy. > > The administration of my dreams understands where the country is today. Its > members know that, as Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center put it on 'The > NewsHour,' 'This was an election where the middle asserted itself. There was > 'no sign' of a 'movement to the left. > > Only 17 percent of Americans trust the government to do the right thing > most or all of the time, according to an October New York Times/CBS News > poll. So the members of my dream Obama administration understand that they > cannot impose an ideological program the country does not accept. New > presidents in 1932 and 1964 could presuppose a basic level of trust in > government. But today, as Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution > observes, the new president is going to have to build that trust > deliberately and step by step. > > Walking into the Obama White House of my dreams will be like walking into > the Gates Foundation. The people there will be ostentatiously pragmatic and > data-driven. They'll hunt good ideas like venture capitalists. They'll have > no faith in all-powerful bureaucrats issuing edicts from the center. > Instead, they'll use that language of decentralized networks, bottom-up > reform and scalable innovation. > > They will actually believe in that stuff Obama says about postpartisan > politics. That means there won't just be a few token liberal Republicans in > marginal jobs. There will be people like Robert Gates at Defense and Ray > LaHood, Stuart Butler, Diane Ravitch, Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Jim Talent at > other important jobs. > > The Obama administration of my dreams will insist that Congressional > Democrats reinstate bipartisan conference committees. They'll invite G.O.P. > leaders to the White House for real meetings and then re-invite them, even > if they give hostile press conferences on the White House driveway. > > They'll do things conservatives disagree with, but they'll also show that > they're not toadies of the liberal interest groups. They'll insist on merit > pay and preserving No Child Left Behind's accountability standards, no > matter what the teachers' unions say. They'll postpone contentious fights on > things like card check legislation. > > Most of all, they'll take significant action on the problems facing the > country without causing a mass freak-out among voters to the right of Nancy > Pelosi. > > They'll do this by explaining to the American people that there are two > stages to their domestic policy thinking, the short-term and the long-term. > > The short-term strategy will have two goals: to mitigate the pain of the > recession and the change the culture of Washington. The first step will be > to complete the round of stimulus packages that are sure to come. > > Then they'll take up two ideas that already have bipartisan support: > middle-class tax relief and an energy package. The current economic and > energy crisis is an opportunity to do what was not done in similar > circumstances in 1974 -- transform this country's energy supply. A > comprehensive bill -- encompassing everything from off-shore drilling to > green technologies -- would stimulate the economy and nurture new political > coalitions. > > When the recession shows signs of bottoming out, then my dream > administration would begin phase two. The long-term strategy would be about > restoring fiscal balances and reforming fundamental institutions. > > By this time, the budget deficit could be zooming past $1.5 trillion a > year. The U.S. will be borrowing oceans of money from abroad. My dream > administration will show that it understands that the remedy for a culture > of debt is not more long-term debt. It will side with those who worry that > long-term deficits could lead to ruinous interest-rate hikes. > > My dream administration will announce a Budget Rebalancing Initiative. > Somebody like Representative Jim Cooper would go through the budget and take > out the programs and tax expenditures that don't work. If we have no > spending cuts, then we're saying government is perfect. Nobody believes > that,' Cooper says. > > Having built bipartisan relationships, having shown some fiscal toughness, > having seen the economy through the tough times, my dream administration > will then be in a position to take up health care reform, tax reform, > education reform and a long-range infrastructure initiative. These reforms > may have to start slow and on the cheap. But real reform would be imaginable > since politics as we know it would be transformed. > > Is it all just a dream? I hope not. In any case, please be quiet and let me > have my moment. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:22:11 -0500 > From: "taraprakash" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > To: "Sarai" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Naga and all. > Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers > the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider the > US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the > first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism. There are more to > come. And more to be won. > > > As Dushyant Kumar said > > Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi > Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." > > (This wall made of sand has started shaking. > But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) > > Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. > But > > sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. > > (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) > > > > Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing > skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. > > Regards > TaraPrakash > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nagraj Adve" > To: "taraprakash" > Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > > > Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. > I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a > changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level > and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to > undermine, would not have come in 1991. The rejection of Naidu in AP > in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed > to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in > agriculture. > > One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to > undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am > delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how > elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US > election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in > Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent > interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be > similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing > change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton > years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 > million (33 to 41 million); the bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions > which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. > > So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not > McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. > > Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely > quote at the end of it. > Naga > > On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: > > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope after > > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud to > > be > > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" > > > > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world looks > > at > > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the > world. > > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more room > > to > > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot > > globalization. > > > > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or > > more > > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we > have > > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place without > > Dick and Bush. > > > > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh mostly > > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and > > his > > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. > > There > > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope > > that > > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal > > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said > > during > > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism has > > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; > > yes > > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: > > > > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta > > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. > > > > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, > > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Nagraj Adve" > > To: "gautam bhan" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > > > > > >> Dear Gautam, > >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times > >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was > >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what > >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a > >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of > >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and > >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first > >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay > >> become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown > >> out of their jhopad pattis. > >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too > >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that > >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much > >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so > >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that > >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration > >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that > >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, > >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but > >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, > >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. > >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, > >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic > >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his > >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. > >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because > >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand > >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be > >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy > >> that Obama has won. > >> Naga > >> > >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I > >>> wrote for elsewhere. > >>> > >>> - gautam > >>> > >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org > >>> > >>> A Letter from America > >>> > >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the > >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, > >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no > >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit > >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California > >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this > >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they > >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. > >>> > >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, > >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we > >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian > >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America > >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. > >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to > >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look > >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the > >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not > >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. > >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. > >>> > >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, > >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears > >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They > >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the > >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is > >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that > >>> has elected Obama. > >>> > >>> > >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years > >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. > >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and > >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every > >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America > >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush > >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for > >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black > >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions > >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. > >>> > >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will > >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural > >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and > >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers > >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be > >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this > >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope > >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will > >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories > >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. > >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope > >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. > >>> > >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive > >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this > >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, > >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look > >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its > >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is > >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of > >>> change can understand and support. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe > >>> in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 63 > ******************************************* > From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 23:17:06 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 23:17:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congratulations America In-Reply-To: References: <0ABD5651-CAA1-486A-A064-B11E6608AA15@sarai.net> <564b2fca0811051216u7943c3afl4011a2d35bb708d2@mail.gmail.com> <36CBC5066C09462DB562FF503CDA1E3C@tara> <564b2fca0811051938t3f2efb19o50550af8134418ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0811070947i58cc446dp56ef38330425baa2@mail.gmail.com> Taraprakash, The latest US unemployment data is just out and it seems perhaps a million jobs have been lost so far this year. And it is going to get more severe. I'm extremely glad it is Obama and not McCain because the kind of public spending needed to generate jobs wouild be very unlikely under McCain. As I and a friend here were just discussing, the next 5 years are going to see the coming together of massive crises - peaking oil production, global warming, and the ongoing economic crisis. All of these are systemic, intrinsically related to the development of capitalism. Some of these have no precedent in human history and I don't expect solutions from these leaders. We need to think beyond, and come up with alternative restructuiing of many things very very quickly. Naga 2008/11/7 taraprakash > Hi Naga and all. > Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers > the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider the > US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the > first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism. There are more to > come. And more to be won. > > > As Dushyant Kumar said > > Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi > Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." > > (This wall made of sand has started shaking. > But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) > > Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. > But > > sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. > > (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) > > > > Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing > skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. > > Regards > TaraPrakash > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nagraj Adve" > To: "taraprakash" > Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > > > Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. > I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a > changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level > and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to > undermine, would not have come in 1991. The rejection of Naidu in AP > in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed > to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in > agriculture. > > One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to > undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am > delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how > elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US > election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in > Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent > interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be > similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing > change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton > years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 > million (33 to 41 million); the bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions > which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. > > So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not > McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. > > Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely > quote at the end of it. > Naga > > On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: > > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope after > > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud to > > be > > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" > > > > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world looks > > at > > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the > world. > > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more room > > to > > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot > > globalization. > > > > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or > > more > > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we > have > > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place without > > Dick and Bush. > > > > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh mostly > > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and > > his > > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. > > There > > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope > > that > > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal > > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said > > during > > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism has > > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; > > yes > > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: > > > > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta > > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. > > > > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, > > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Nagraj Adve" > > To: "gautam bhan" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America > > > > > >> Dear Gautam, > >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times > >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was > >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what > >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a > >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of > >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and > >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first > >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay > >> become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown > >> out of their jhopad pattis. > >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too > >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that > >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much > >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so > >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that > >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration > >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that > >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, > >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but > >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, > >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. > >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, > >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic > >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his > >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. > >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because > >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand > >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be > >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy > >> that Obama has won. > >> Naga > >> > >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I > >>> wrote for elsewhere. > >>> > >>> - gautam > >>> > >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org > >>> > >>> A Letter from America > >>> > >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the > >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. Usually, > >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no > >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit > >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California > >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this > >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because they > >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. > >>> > >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, > >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India we > >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian > >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America > >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public universities. > >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to > >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and look > >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the > >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not > >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. > >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. > >>> > >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, > >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears > >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They > >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the > >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is > >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America that > >>> has elected Obama. > >>> > >>> > >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten years > >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. > >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and > >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every > >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America > >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush > >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, for > >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black > >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst millions > >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. > >>> > >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race will > >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural > >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and > >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers > >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be > >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this > >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope > >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will > >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in stories > >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. > >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope > >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. > >>> > >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive > >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this > >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, > >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look > >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its > >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that is > >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of > >>> change can understand and support. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe > >>> in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 00:11:00 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:41:00 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In References: Message-ID: <4BF39DE4D2FE421A86EE018FF785DC41@tara> Hi Naeem and all. As I have not read him so closely, I am not sure if your assessment of Brooks as "bohurupi" or "bahrupia" in Hindi, is farfetched or no, but I have read opEd articles by Brooks and Krugman, whose article on Obama I am soon going to forward, questioning his ability to deliver before Obama clinched his party nomination. In fact, New York Times had endorsed Hilary Clinton for the primaries. It will be nice to hear from you about the piece by this year's nobel laureate Paul Krugman. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In > In Bangladesh, we have a creature called bohurupi, many colored, many > faces, > chameleon. Now that it appears the Army is finally giving in and allowing > elections to happen December 18th and return to democracy, many bohurupis > will reverse their support of 1/11 and emerge as democrats. In America, > David Brooks is one such bohurupi. > > Brought into the NYT op-ed page in the face of ferocious and relentless > conservative attacks on the so-called "liberal" bias of the paper, he > proceeded to peddle asinine, conservative-lite pap over the last few > years, > including many justifications of Bush domestic policy platforms, and even > some simpering on foreign policy. > > Like Thomas Friedman, who will never admit that he was one of the many > pundits ("we break it we own it" and oh yes "countries with mcdonalds > don't > go to war w. each other"), who rah-rah'ed the train wreck of last 8 years, > Brooks will reinvent himself as a newborn Obama fan. > > > From: "taraprakash" >> >> OP-ED COLUMNIST. Change I Can Believe In. >> By DAVID BROOKS. I have dreams. I may seem like a boring pundit whose >> most >> exotic fantasies involve G.A.O. reports, but deep down, I have dreams. >> And >> right now I'm dreaming of the successful presidency this country needs. >> I'm >> dreaming of an administration led by Barack Obama, but which stretches >> beyond the normal Democratic base. It makes time for moderate voters, >> suburban voters, rural voters and even people who voted for the other >> guy. >> >> The administration of my dreams understands where the country is today. >> Its >> members know that, as Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center put it on >> 'The >> NewsHour,' 'This was an election where the middle asserted itself. There >> was >> 'no sign' of a 'movement to the left. >> >> Only 17 percent of Americans trust the government to do the right thing >> most or all of the time, according to an October New York Times/CBS News >> poll. So the members of my dream Obama administration understand that >> they >> cannot impose an ideological program the country does not accept. New >> presidents in 1932 and 1964 could presuppose a basic level of trust in >> government. But today, as Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution >> observes, the new president is going to have to build that trust >> deliberately and step by step. >> >> Walking into the Obama White House of my dreams will be like walking into >> the Gates Foundation. The people there will be ostentatiously pragmatic >> and >> data-driven. They'll hunt good ideas like venture capitalists. They'll >> have >> no faith in all-powerful bureaucrats issuing edicts from the center. >> Instead, they'll use that language of decentralized networks, bottom-up >> reform and scalable innovation. >> >> They will actually believe in that stuff Obama says about postpartisan >> politics. That means there won't just be a few token liberal Republicans >> in >> marginal jobs. There will be people like Robert Gates at Defense and Ray >> LaHood, Stuart Butler, Diane Ravitch, Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Jim Talent >> at >> other important jobs. >> >> The Obama administration of my dreams will insist that Congressional >> Democrats reinstate bipartisan conference committees. They'll invite >> G.O.P. >> leaders to the White House for real meetings and then re-invite them, >> even >> if they give hostile press conferences on the White House driveway. >> >> They'll do things conservatives disagree with, but they'll also show that >> they're not toadies of the liberal interest groups. They'll insist on >> merit >> pay and preserving No Child Left Behind's accountability standards, no >> matter what the teachers' unions say. They'll postpone contentious fights >> on >> things like card check legislation. >> >> Most of all, they'll take significant action on the problems facing the >> country without causing a mass freak-out among voters to the right of >> Nancy >> Pelosi. >> >> They'll do this by explaining to the American people that there are two >> stages to their domestic policy thinking, the short-term and the >> long-term. >> >> The short-term strategy will have two goals: to mitigate the pain of the >> recession and the change the culture of Washington. The first step will >> be >> to complete the round of stimulus packages that are sure to come. >> >> Then they'll take up two ideas that already have bipartisan support: >> middle-class tax relief and an energy package. The current economic and >> energy crisis is an opportunity to do what was not done in similar >> circumstances in 1974 -- transform this country's energy supply. A >> comprehensive bill -- encompassing everything from off-shore drilling to >> green technologies -- would stimulate the economy and nurture new >> political >> coalitions. >> >> When the recession shows signs of bottoming out, then my dream >> administration would begin phase two. The long-term strategy would be >> about >> restoring fiscal balances and reforming fundamental institutions. >> >> By this time, the budget deficit could be zooming past $1.5 trillion a >> year. The U.S. will be borrowing oceans of money from abroad. My dream >> administration will show that it understands that the remedy for a >> culture >> of debt is not more long-term debt. It will side with those who worry >> that >> long-term deficits could lead to ruinous interest-rate hikes. >> >> My dream administration will announce a Budget Rebalancing Initiative. >> Somebody like Representative Jim Cooper would go through the budget and >> take >> out the programs and tax expenditures that don't work. If we have no >> spending cuts, then we're saying government is perfect. Nobody believes >> that,' Cooper says. >> >> Having built bipartisan relationships, having shown some fiscal >> toughness, >> having seen the economy through the tough times, my dream administration >> will then be in a position to take up health care reform, tax reform, >> education reform and a long-range infrastructure initiative. These >> reforms >> may have to start slow and on the cheap. But real reform would be >> imaginable >> since politics as we know it would be transformed. >> >> Is it all just a dream? I hope not. In any case, please be quiet and let >> me >> have my moment. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:22:11 -0500 >> From: "taraprakash" >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> To: "Sarai" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Hi Naga and all. >> Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers >> the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider >> the >> US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the >> first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism. There are more to >> come. And more to be won. >> >> >> As Dushyant Kumar said >> >> Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi >> Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." >> >> (This wall made of sand has started shaking. >> But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) >> >> Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. >> But >> >> sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. >> >> (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) >> >> >> >> Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing >> skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. >> >> Regards >> TaraPrakash >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nagraj Adve" >> To: "taraprakash" >> Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> >> >> Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. >> I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a >> changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level >> and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to >> undermine, would not have come in 1991. The rejection of Naidu in AP >> in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed >> to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in >> agriculture. >> >> One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to >> undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am >> delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how >> elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US >> election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in >> Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent >> interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be >> similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing >> change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton >> years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 >> million (33 to 41 million); the bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions >> which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. >> >> So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not >> McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. >> >> Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely >> quote at the end of it. >> Naga >> >> On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: >> > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope >> > after >> > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud >> > to >> > be >> > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" >> > >> > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world >> > looks >> > at >> > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the >> world. >> > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more >> > room >> > to >> > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot >> > globalization. >> > >> > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or >> > more >> > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we >> have >> > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place >> > without >> > Dick and Bush. >> > >> > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh >> > mostly >> > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and >> > his >> > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. >> > There >> > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope >> > that >> > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal >> > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said >> > during >> > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism >> > has >> > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; >> > yes >> > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: >> > >> > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta >> > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. >> > >> > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, >> > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Nagraj Adve" >> > To: "gautam bhan" >> > Cc: "sarai list" >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> > >> > >> >> Dear Gautam, >> >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >> >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >> >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >> >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >> >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >> >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >> >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >> >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >> >> become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >> >> out of their jhopad pattis. >> >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >> >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >> >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >> >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >> >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >> >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >> >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >> >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >> >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >> >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >> >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >> >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >> >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >> >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >> >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >> >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >> >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >> >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >> >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >> >> that Obama has won. >> >> Naga >> >> >> >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >> >>> wrote for elsewhere. >> >>> >> >>> - gautam >> >>> >> >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >> >>> >> >>> A Letter from America >> >>> >> >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >> >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. >> >>> Usually, >> >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >> >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >> >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >> >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >> >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because >> >>> they >> >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >> >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India >> >>> we >> >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >> >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >> >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public >> >>> universities. >> >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >> >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and >> >>> look >> >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >> >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >> >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >> >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >> >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >> >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >> >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >> >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >> >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America >> >>> that >> >>> has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten >> >>> years >> >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >> >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >> >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >> >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >> >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >> >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, >> >>> for >> >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >> >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst >> >>> millions >> >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >> >>> >> >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race >> >>> will >> >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >> >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >> >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >> >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >> >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >> >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >> >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >> >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in >> >>> stories >> >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >> >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >> >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >> >>> >> >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >> >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >> >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >> >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >> >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >> >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that >> >>> is >> >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >> >>> change can understand and support. >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> reader-list mailing list >> reader-list at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 63 >> ******************************************* >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 00:16:54 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:46:54 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Obama Agenda by Paul Krugman (today's NY Times) Message-ID: <96E65752F34D461B87B1B6648296AE3E@tara> OP-ED COLUMNIST. The Obama Agenda. By PAUL KRUGMAN. Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2008, is a date that will live in fame (the opposite of infamy) forever. If the election of our first African-American president didn't stir you, if it didn't leave you teary-eyed and proud of your country, there's something wrong with you. But will the election also mark a turning point in the actual substance of policy? Can Barack Obama really usher in a new era of progressive policies? Yes, he can. Right now, many commentators are urging Mr. Obama to think small. Some make the case on political grounds: America, they say, is still a conservative country, and voters will punish Democrats if they move to the left. Others say that the financial and economic crisis leaves no room for action on, say, health care reform. Let's hope that Mr. Obama has the good sense to ignore this advice. About the political argument: Anyone who doubts that we've had a major political realignment should look at what's happened to Congress. After the 2004 election, there were many declarations that we'd entered a long-term, perhaps permanent era of Republican dominance. Since then, Democrats have won back-to-back victories, picking up at least 12 Senate seats and more than 50 House seats. They now have bigger majorities in both houses than the G.O.P. ever achieved in its 12-year reign. Bear in mind, also, that this year's presidential election was a clear referendum on political philosophies -- and the progressive philosophy won. Maybe the best way to highlight the importance of that fact is to contrast this year's campaign with what happened four years ago. In 2004, President Bush concealed his real agenda. He basically ran as the nation's defender against gay married terrorists, leaving even his supporters nonplussed when he announced, soon after the election was over, that his first priority was Social Security privatization. That wasn't what people thought they had been voting for, and the privatization campaign quickly devolved from juggernaut to farce. This year, however, Mr. Obama ran on a platform of guaranteed health care and tax breaks for the middle class, paid for with higher taxes on the affluent. John McCain denounced his opponent as a socialist and a 'redistributor,' but America voted for him anyway. That's a real mandate. What about the argument that the economic crisis will make a progressive agenda unaffordable? Well, there's no question that fighting the crisis will cost a lot of money. Rescuing the financial system will probably require large outlays beyond the funds already disbursed. And on top of that, we badly need a program of increased government spending to support output and employment. Could next year's federal budget deficit reach $1 trillion? Yes. But standard textbook economics says that it's O.K., in fact appropriate, to run temporary deficits in the face of a depressed economy. Meanwhile, one or two years of red ink, while it would add modestly to future federal interest expenses, shouldn't stand in the way of a health care plan that, even if quickly enacted into law, probably wouldn't take effect until 2011. Beyond that, the response to the economic crisis is, in itself, a chance to advance the progressive agenda. Now, the Obama administration shouldn't emulate the Bush administration's habit of turning anything and everything into an argument for its preferred policies. (Recession? The economy needs help -- let's cut taxes on rich people! Recovery? Tax cuts for rich people work -- let's do some more!) But it would be fair for the new administration to point out how conservative ideology, the belief that greed is always good, helped create this crisis. What F.D.R. said in his second inaugural address -- 'We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics' -- has never rung truer. And right now happens to be one of those times when the converse is also true, and good morals are good economics. Helping the neediest in a time of crisis, through expanded health and unemployment benefits, is the morally right thing to do; it's also a far more effective form of economic stimulus than cutting the capital gains tax. Providing aid to beleaguered state and local governments, so that they can sustain essential public services, is important for those who depend on those services; it's also a way to avoid job losses and limit the depth of the economy's slump. So a serious progressive agenda -- call it a new New Deal -- isn't just economically possible, it's exactly what the economy needs. The bottom line, then, is that Barack Obama shouldn't listen to the people trying to scare him into being a do-nothing president. He has the political mandate; he has good economics on his side. You might say that the only thing he has to fear is fear itself. From oishiksircar at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 11:05:36 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:05:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sonal Shah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62cba67a0811072135y5071311qabf5e066f44e864a@mail.gmail.com> Weekend Edition November 7 / 9, 2008 The Many Faces of Sonal Shah Obama's Indian By VIJAY PRASHAD Barack Obama has appointed John Podesta to run his transition. During the lean years of the Bush administration, Podesta, native of Chicago, ran a shadow cabinet for the Democrats. Since 2003, the home of this government-in-exile has been the Center for American Progress (CAP), a liberal think tank set-up to rival the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute. The money, about $10 million per year, came from George Soros, Peter Lewis, Marion Sandler and Herb Sandler – the main liberal financiers. CAP has its set of fellows. Many of them worked in some capacity within the Clinton administration (where Podesta was Chief of Staff). There are hard-nosed people like Rudy deLeon (who went through every Defense secretariat in the Clinton years) and Jeanne Lambrew (who served as a health analyst in the National Economic Council during the waning years of the Clinton administration). But there are also the fresh faces, young people who came to Washington with glowing references from the Ivy League. Others marched over from the Hill, after serving various terms as staff members for the Democratic warhorses. They have been groomed to be part of the next Democratic administration. Their hibernation is over. Obama has called. The likely suspects have picked up the phone and moved to the transition headquarters. Among them is a former CAP fellow and now Google employee, Sonal Shah. Shah is well known in the South Asian American community, and is a fixture in the Washington liberal circuit. The latter know her for her Democratic credentials, most of which seem to lie somewhere between neo-liberalism and welfare liberalism. The bleeding heart pauses, but then ticks again to the tune of pragmatism. This is perfect material for the CAP, which is hardly enthusiastic about the Democratic Leadership Council's total commitment to triangulation (which means capitulation to conservatism), but it is not averse to a little political calculus itself. Shah, a product of the University of Chicago, shined her corporate shoes at Anderson Consulting (who was Enron's accountant), which probably made it easier for her to go into Clinton's Treasury Department, where she helped Robert Rubin put a U. S. stamp on the post-1997 Asian economic recovery. The corporate side was balanced with an interest in the ideology of "giving back." When Bush took office, Shah went to the Center for Global Development, and while there joined her brother Anand in forming Indicorps. Knowing full well the desire among many South Asian Americans to give back to their homeland, the Shahs created an organization to help them go and volunteer in India, to do for them what the Peacecorps did for young liberals in the 1960s. Shah left the CAP to work for Goldman Sachs, and then went to Google. Shah's story is not unlike that of most of the CAP fellows, many of whom honed their dexterity at trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, capital and freedom, private accumulation and human needs. But there is a less typical side to the Shah story. Born in Gujarat, India, Shah came to the United States as a two-year old. Her father, a chemical engineer, first worked in New York before moving to Houston, and then moving away from his education toward the stock market. The Shahs remain active in Houston's Indian community, not only in the ecumenical Gujarati Samaj (a society for people from Gujarat), but also in the far more cruel organizations of the Hindu Right, such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Overseas Friends of the BJP (the main political party of the Hindu Right) and the Ekal Vidyalaya. Shah's parents, Ramesh and Kokila, not only work as volunteers for these outfits, but they also held positions of authority in them. Their daughter was not far behind. She was an active member of the VHPA, the U. S. branch of the most virulently fascistic outfit within India. The VHP's head, Ashok Singhal, believes that his organization should "inculcate a fear psychosis among [India's] Muslim community." This was Shah's boss. Till 2001, Shah was the National Coordinator of the VHPA. In 2004, I ran into Shah at the South Asian Awareness Network conference in Ann Arbor, Michigan. At an earlier panel I questioned her links to the Hindu Right, and so asked people to be wary about her organization, Indicorps. She was furious, and we had a bitter exchange in the Green Room. But at no point did she deny her active connections to the Hindu Right. Her brother, Anand, wrote to me not long after, concerned that Indicorps, which he runs full-time from India, would be tainted by our tussle. "I was curious about Sonal's own personal relationship with the VHPA," I wrote back, "That sparked some concern for me. Of course we are free to have our multiple associations, and there is no expectation that all our affiliations necessarily influence each other. That necessity is granted, although it is my understanding that the VHPA is a very disciplined organization that demands a lot from its members – notably congruence in all the work that they do. Which is why I raised the question." And so I raise the question again. For more, please go to http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad11072008.html. _______________________________________________ Foil-l mailing list Foil-l at insaf.net http://insaf.net/mailman/listinfo/foil-l_insaf.net -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 11:34:15 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:04:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In In-Reply-To: <4BF39DE4D2FE421A86EE018FF785DC41@tara> Message-ID: <409702.40106.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Tara & Naeem,         Its is not "bohurupi" but "bahurupa".  The word "bahurupa" have indepth meaning and roots.  I don't know about the creature "bohurupi", but a type of lizard can change colours as it is exposed to SUNLIGHT. About the usage of  "bahurupa"  actually it is not a HINDI/DEVANAGARI word but it is a SANSKRIT word. The people used to chant to worship the Adishakti(parvathi/kali/durga like this 1000 names ) and offer their prayers.   Bangladesh(East Bengal) was also a part of India earlier,That's how the word "bahurupa" spread across for people usage. The sacred word is being used for wrong context and purpose.  For your courtesy let me quote the hymn and its meaning word by word.    brahmaaNii brahmajananii bahuruupaa budhaarchitaa prasavitrii prachandaagya pratiShThaa prakaTaakR^itiH||   821. brahmANI        : She who is the tail that is brahman; the support for all 822. brahma            : She who is brahman 823. jananI               : She who is the mother 824. bahu rUpA        : She who has a multitude of forms 825. budhArchitA      : She who is worshiped by the wise 826. prasavitrI           : She who is mother of the universe 827. prachaNDA       : She who is full of awe-inspiring wrath 828. AGYA              : She who is divine commandment herself 829. pratishhThA      : She who is the foundation 830. prakaTA kR^itiH: She who is manifested in the form of the universe   Regards, Dhatri.   --- On Sat, 11/8/08, taraprakash wrote: From: taraprakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In To: "Sarai" Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 12:11 AM Hi Naeem and all. As I have not read him so closely, I am not sure if your assessment of Brooks as "bohurupi" or "bahrupia" in Hindi, is farfetched or no, but I have read opEd articles by Brooks and Krugman, whose article on Obama I am soon going to forward, questioning his ability to deliver before Obama clinched his party nomination. In fact, New York Times had endorsed Hilary Clinton for the primaries. It will be nice to hear from you about the piece by this year's nobel laureate Paul Krugman. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In > In Bangladesh, we have a creature called bohurupi, many colored, many > faces, > chameleon. Now that it appears the Army is finally giving in and allowing > elections to happen December 18th and return to democracy, many bohurupis > will reverse their support of 1/11 and emerge as democrats. In America, > David Brooks is one such bohurupi. > > Brought into the NYT op-ed page in the face of ferocious and relentless > conservative attacks on the so-called "liberal" bias of the paper, he > proceeded to peddle asinine, conservative-lite pap over the last few > years, > including many justifications of Bush domestic policy platforms, and even > some simpering on foreign policy. > > Like Thomas Friedman, who will never admit that he was one of the many > pundits ("we break it we own it" and oh yes "countries with mcdonalds > don't > go to war w. each other"), who rah-rah'ed the train wreck of last 8 years, > Brooks will reinvent himself as a newborn Obama fan. > > > From: "taraprakash" >> >> OP-ED COLUMNIST. Change I Can Believe In. >> By DAVID BROOKS. I have dreams. I may seem like a boring pundit whose >> most >> exotic fantasies involve G.A.O. reports, but deep down, I have dreams. >> And >> right now I'm dreaming of the successful presidency this country needs. >> I'm >> dreaming of an administration led by Barack Obama, but which stretches >> beyond the normal Democratic base. It makes time for moderate voters, >> suburban voters, rural voters and even people who voted for the other >> guy. >> >> The administration of my dreams understands where the country is today. >> Its >> members know that, as Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center put it on >> 'The >> NewsHour,' 'This was an election where the middle asserted itself. There >> was >> 'no sign' of a 'movement to the left. >> >> Only 17 percent of Americans trust the government to do the right thing >> most or all of the time, according to an October New York Times/CBS News >> poll. So the members of my dream Obama administration understand that >> they >> cannot impose an ideological program the country does not accept. New >> presidents in 1932 and 1964 could presuppose a basic level of trust in >> government. But today, as Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution >> observes, the new president is going to have to build that trust >> deliberately and step by step. >> >> Walking into the Obama White House of my dreams will be like walking into >> the Gates Foundation. The people there will be ostentatiously pragmatic >> and >> data-driven. They'll hunt good ideas like venture capitalists. They'll >> have >> no faith in all-powerful bureaucrats issuing edicts from the center. >> Instead, they'll use that language of decentralized networks, bottom-up >> reform and scalable innovation. >> >> They will actually believe in that stuff Obama says about postpartisan >> politics. That means there won't just be a few token liberal Republicans >> in >> marginal jobs. There will be people like Robert Gates at Defense and Ray >> LaHood, Stuart Butler, Diane Ravitch, Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Jim Talent >> at >> other important jobs. >> >> The Obama administration of my dreams will insist that Congressional >> Democrats reinstate bipartisan conference committees. They'll invite >> G.O.P. >> leaders to the White House for real meetings and then re-invite them, >> even >> if they give hostile press conferences on the White House driveway. >> >> They'll do things conservatives disagree with, but they'll also show that >> they're not toadies of the liberal interest groups. They'll insist on >> merit >> pay and preserving No Child Left Behind's accountability standards, no >> matter what the teachers' unions say. They'll postpone contentious fights >> on >> things like card check legislation. >> >> Most of all, they'll take significant action on the problems facing the >> country without causing a mass freak-out among voters to the right of >> Nancy >> Pelosi. >> >> They'll do this by explaining to the American people that there are two >> stages to their domestic policy thinking, the short-term and the >> long-term. >> >> The short-term strategy will have two goals: to mitigate the pain of the >> recession and the change the culture of Washington. The first step will >> be >> to complete the round of stimulus packages that are sure to come. >> >> Then they'll take up two ideas that already have bipartisan support: >> middle-class tax relief and an energy package. The current economic and >> energy crisis is an opportunity to do what was not done in similar >> circumstances in 1974 -- transform this country's energy supply. A >> comprehensive bill -- encompassing everything from off-shore drilling to >> green technologies -- would stimulate the economy and nurture new >> political >> coalitions. >> >> When the recession shows signs of bottoming out, then my dream >> administration would begin phase two. The long-term strategy would be >> about >> restoring fiscal balances and reforming fundamental institutions. >> >> By this time, the budget deficit could be zooming past $1.5 trillion a >> year. The U.S. will be borrowing oceans of money from abroad. My dream >> administration will show that it understands that the remedy for a >> culture >> of debt is not more long-term debt. It will side with those who worry >> that >> long-term deficits could lead to ruinous interest-rate hikes. >> >> My dream administration will announce a Budget Rebalancing Initiative. >> Somebody like Representative Jim Cooper would go through the budget and >> take >> out the programs and tax expenditures that don't work. If we have no >> spending cuts, then we're saying government is perfect. Nobody believes >> that,' Cooper says. >> >> Having built bipartisan relationships, having shown some fiscal >> toughness, >> having seen the economy through the tough times, my dream administration >> will then be in a position to take up health care reform, tax reform, >> education reform and a long-range infrastructure initiative. These >> reforms >> may have to start slow and on the cheap. But real reform would be >> imaginable >> since politics as we know it would be transformed. >> >> Is it all just a dream? I hope not. In any case, please be quiet and let >> me >> have my moment. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:22:11 -0500 >> From: "taraprakash" >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> To: "Sarai" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Hi Naga and all. >> Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers >> the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider >> the >> US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the >> first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism. There are more to >> come. And more to be won. >> >> >> As Dushyant Kumar said >> >> Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi >> Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." >> >> (This wall made of sand has started shaking. >> But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) >> >> Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. >> But >> >> sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. >> >> (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) >> >> >> >> Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing >> skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. >> >> Regards >> TaraPrakash >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nagraj Adve" >> To: "taraprakash" >> Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> >> >> Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. >> I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a >> changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level >> and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to >> undermine, would not have come in 1991. The rejection of Naidu in AP >> in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed >> to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in >> agriculture. >> >> One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to >> undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am >> delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how >> elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US >> election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in >> Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent >> interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be >> similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing >> change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton >> years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 >> million (33 to 41 million); the bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions >> which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. >> >> So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not >> McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. >> >> Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely >> quote at the end of it. >> Naga >> >> On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: >> > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope >> > after >> > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud >> > to >> > be >> > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" >> > >> > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world >> > looks >> > at >> > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the >> world. >> > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more >> > room >> > to >> > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot >> > globalization. >> > >> > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or >> > more >> > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we >> have >> > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place >> > without >> > Dick and Bush. >> > >> > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh >> > mostly >> > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and >> > his >> > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. >> > There >> > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope >> > that >> > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal >> > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said >> > during >> > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism >> > has >> > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; >> > yes >> > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: >> > >> > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta >> > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. >> > >> > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, >> > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Nagraj Adve" >> > To: "gautam bhan" >> > Cc: "sarai list" >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> > >> > >> >> Dear Gautam, >> >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >> >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >> >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >> >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >> >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >> >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >> >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >> >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >> >> become Shanghai, after which about 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >> >> out of their jhopad pattis. >> >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >> >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >> >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >> >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >> >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >> >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >> >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >> >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >> >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >> >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >> >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >> >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >> >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >> >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >> >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >> >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >> >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >> >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >> >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >> >> that Obama has won. >> >> Naga >> >> >> >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>> I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >> >>> wrote for elsewhere. >> >>> >> >>> - gautam >> >>> >> >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >> >>> >> >>> A Letter from America >> >>> >> >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >> >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. >> >>> Usually, >> >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >> >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >> >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >> >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >> >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because >> >>> they >> >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >> >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India >> >>> we >> >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >> >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >> >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public >> >>> universities. >> >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >> >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and >> >>> look >> >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >> >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >> >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >> >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >> >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >> >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >> >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >> >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >> >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America >> >>> that >> >>> has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten >> >>> years >> >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >> >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >> >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >> >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >> >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >> >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, >> >>> for >> >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >> >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst >> >>> millions >> >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >> >>> >> >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race >> >>> will >> >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >> >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >> >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >> >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >> >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >> >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >> >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >> >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in >> >>> stories >> >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >> >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >> >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >> >>> >> >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >> >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >> >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >> >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >> >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >> >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that >> >>> is >> >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >> >>> change can understand and support. >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> reader-list mailing list >> reader-list at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 63 >> ******************************************* >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lawrence at altlawforum.org Sat Nov 8 13:30:58 2008 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:30:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Final day of Naaz Hearings Message-ID: *Minutes of Naz Hearing 7.11.08 (Final Day of Naz hearings) * Mr B.P Singhal, began by producing some newspaper reports from the Hindustan Times and Pioneer and said he strongly objected to the reporting. His contention was that the papers misreported that the 'Court had pulled up Mr. Singhal'. He contended that 'it was gross contempt my Lord, the press has become the High Court and it was going beyond all limits. He observed that,'trespass was the order of the day and it was time for the Court to take action'. He also observed that,'the mother of all harms to the human body comes from homosexuality'. J. Shah expressed surprise at the reporting and said the Court would look into it. Mr Grover continued with his rejoinder by stating that in India the HIV epidemic is caused by different actors and that in India MSM were not fuelling the epidemic but rather it was female sex workers. As per the 2007 NACO study, there is an over all decline in infections in south and Northeast India. The decline in the south is because of interventions among FSW's. He submitted that you couldn't distribute condoms to MSM's , as then one will become abettors to the offence. The ASG intervened to say that nobody was saying that and that we are prepared to provide condoms to all. Mr Grover noted that it was not enough to say that they can come and get condoms but the state had to be proactive. He noted that the state has an obligation to treat everyone and the importance of condom provision was proved as incidence of new infections among female sex workers had come down. He submitted that if HIV spreads through homosexuality alone, it would have remained confined to homosexual population. But since this group was also having sex with the general population HIV spread to the general population. Hence if you scale up interventions with MSM, it will have a positive impact on the health of the wider society as well. He then submitted that under Art 21 the state had a burden to discharge, i.e. that there was a compelling state interest to intrude into the right of privacy. There was no such data by the state and in fact the state was divided in its opinion. ] With respect to the question of child sexual abuse and non consensual sex, the prayer was clear, since there is no law on child sexual abuse, the section as only been sought to be read down and not struck down. To the contention that there was no such thing as a minority, Mr Grover submitted that Art 14 was not restricted to the grounds enumerated under Art 15 and Art 16. With respect to the *Sakshi* judgment, he distinguished it as asking for an expansion of the meaning of sexual intercourse where as the prayer here was for a restricted reading. With respect to application of international law, he noted that the very incorporation of the dignity under Art 21 came via US law i.e. *Munn. V. Illinois.* There will be no effect on marriage laws if this prayer is granted and the introduction of consent based distinction is already there in Sec 375 and will not create any difficult problems. Mr. Grover noted that with respect to the main contention of morality, he noted that while morality is a valid ground under Art 19(2) it cannot be literally imported into Art 21 as a restriction. The state would have to show more than just morality, to restrict rights under Art 21. The understanding of *Maneka Gandhi* cant be that, we limit Art 21, but rather that we expand Art 21. J. Muralidhar gave the example of two statutes, one restricts a gay parade and another restricts a gay persons right to dress in a particular way, saying should wear suit only etc. Can morality be a ground for restricting expression and right to profession as well ? For example if an MSM is an advocate and a Bar Council Rule prohibits him , clearly public decency and morality cant be ground for restricting the right to practice any profession . J. Shah observed that if the state deprived a person of the right to health, could the state invoke morality as a ground and whether restrictions under Art 19 were relevant at all ? Mr Grover noted that pre Cooper there was a compartmentalized view and now you cant take that view. You cant just say morality, but rather show that morality is a compelling state interest, On the point he read from an additional written submission, using quotations from *Dudgeon, Norris, Leung. * J. Shah then asked whether if one imagined that HIV was not there and the petitioner comes before the Court, the argument would not just be about the right to health and dignity would be central issue. Mr Grover agreed with the Bench and noted that if as a heterosexual person he walked in the park, it was unlikely that he would be arrested under Sec 377. Mr Shyam Divan for Voices Against 377 Mr. Divan submitted a note to the Court on the doctrine of severability , making the point that the doctrine of severability of enforcement would be of relevance the Court.. This might be done by granting a perpetual injunction restraining enforcement of the law on the forbidden field.. The principle derived from Chamarbaugwala's case and cited by HM Seervai in his Constitutional Law of India, is that applying the rule of 'severabilty in application', the Court may restrain the enforcement of a law or statutory provision in respect of that class of subjects of which the law in invalid. Here, Sec 377 insofar as it covers consensual same sex acts between adults. Mr Divan then submitted another note, which was a brief response to the oral submissions by the contending respondents. The judges perused the note and then Mr. Divan briefly made an oral submission on only one point – the question of public morality. 'The right to live with dignity guaranteed to all persons. The declaration is necessary because it will enable LGBT persons to live with dignity and express a vital dimension of their identity. If identity and self worth are important, if full moral citizenship is important , then public morality cannot be allowed to trump it. The activity with respect to which the declaration is sought does not cause harm to any third party. Public morality is not a valid or sufficient justification to deny a person his dignity, particularly where the morality is not in itself a discernable constitutional value or morality. Indeed, in this context, it is the fundamental rights enshrined to protect minorities including sexual minorities that ought to prevail. Morality by itself, in the absence of any other harm cannot be a ground to restrict the right to live with dignity.' The Union of India and other intervenor respondents were given till Monday to file their written submissions and the matter was posted for final orders. Arvind Narrain From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 15:09:11 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:09:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] doubt about what, javed.? Message-ID: Dear Rajendra Bhatt This must be the most absurd logic I have ever heard about any judicial matter. If this piece of evidence was to be kept confidential, then how do you know about it? And in any case, when has public been shown any piece of evidence claimed by the police in so many cases. In the Jamia Nagar case, they said they have found AK-47 - did they show it to public. They said they've found a laptop in L-18 Batla House with photos of Osama - did they show it to public? And in your example, why couldn't only the judge and lawyers be shown the evidence and a decision be made based on that? I just don't believe the logic you have presented. Can you give a source for this? You said that even google does not show the detailed floor plan of the parliament. Guess what, I just saw Indian parliament on the google in as much detail as they show anything else on earth (this the maximum they show of anything). You are welcome to see it at the following link (please use the entire URL even if looks broken into 2-3 lines): http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Delhi&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.780156,86.572266&ie=UTF8&ll=28.617255,77.209189&spn=0.002698,0.005284&t=k&z=18 Also, if Geelani had access to the detailed floor plans of parliament (which could be used to destroy the place), what a damp squib they finally achieved - they could not even enter the parliament or harm any MP? They were trying to the premises in a white ambassador? What a stupid use of having detailed floor plans. Let me know if you have any other technical reasons for absolving Geelani. J On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Friend, > if you have any doubts about the accused, be they muslims or hindus, the laws clearly state that the accused are innocent till proved guilty.If you have doubts about those in Jamianagar, you should doubt that Geelani, who is a terror sponsor, but not the other detainees. Geelani escaped with the help of a "criminal" lawyer paying hefty fee for the technical error of presented evidence. many may not even know that evidence, let me explain, in the mahazar signed by Geelani with two witnesses the plans of Parliament which are not in public domain were found, with all miniscule details and the prosecution had a tricky isue to present this evidence in the court of law, as once presented in court of laws, geelani would be convicted as he was in possession of plan and elevation of parliament which is considered as confidential, not in public domain, but once in documents of the court as evidence any one can access this piece of evidence and the > parliament will be open to scrutiny by all including teorror planners.! This is the "technical" aspect of evidence as CBI and prosecution decided not to present this peice of evidence as to how he Geelani could obtain this evidence is million dollar issue as even google does not give this detailed floor plan of parliament.! > > Such a person who planned and conspired to execute the attack is now "innocent" and specially invited to talk of communalism when he is muslim communal, terror sponsor.! Ofcourse there are many "secular" who love to love him for his handsome looks, and also are bordering on fascism to defend him.? > > > > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 15:12:50 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:12:50 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66Fiscal mess, global economy and Barak Obama. References: Message-ID: <330934.9647.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> We can change, yes, each of us being the part of this universe and the system, we refuse to accept the change, though we give lip service to change, change is the only constant, but all living beings hate the change, being inert in the system, change is with lots of reluctance, when the change is totally unavoidable.?   Again the power of one is evident in society, be it the moral stand of Mohandas Karam chand Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Mohammed Ali alias Cassius clay, for positive change, or that negative changes of Hitler, mussolini, stalin or Mao, where the power of one shaped the societies to be positive with negative energy and negative with positive energy, the change sought by the devout Bush was positive, a world where terror is rooted out, but the change Bush sought with negative energy made body bags a reality for american mothers wives and children when Bush himself was safely guarded with high security.   Compare this with Gandhiji, who never had to depend on security for his "safety" of the body as his thoughts were positive, ofcourse with human fault lines as in division of nation with faith as the line of division. Todays Gandhis with z + security are not for change, with positive thoughts, but change for absolute power with conversion as credo to increase vote banks with numerical strengths of one faith.Democratic rule in global village , of which our nation is also inhabitant, is characterised by what is jokingly refered as "secular"  governance worse than the attack on nations such as Afghanistan and Iraq, where thousands have died as collateral damage of war on terror.The war has cost the economy of America quite dear, almost 8 billions in last few years, and our nation has lost quite a few billions in appeasement politics of vote banks in the last four years.  This fiscal mess that the whole global village is in is creation of the leaders of the nations with their personal ego trips, intolerence of others and their faiths. Action and reaction theories galore, secularists and fundamentalists all around,  excuses to justify the violence in all forms have made us all averse to change for good of humanity. Readers in the list are shocked if a bunch of students protest, without even bothering to see the roots of violent acts, the first to blame is the most peaceful harmonious way of life , that of hindus. Violence by cadres of communist is justified with qualifications, such as against farmers, against industry, then none looks at the faith of the cadres as communism does not have religion, though all its followers go for every durga pooja pendals to pray.?     Secular regional satraps have their goon cadres to coerce votes and threaten voters, but with violence when they rule the elections the religion or faith of these goon cadres is not important.? DMK and and its young leaders, Alaghiri and stalin, illustrious sons of karunanidhi, who claims to be athiest, has "padai" or goon cadres who rule the roost, but none ask why they are having the vibhuthi on their foreheads, as they always carry "longs" ( the slang for a four foot long sword.)      Missionaries who work on tribal mission, with all education of only god who helps the tribals, carry guns, are afraid of their mortal bodies, nuns are getting all fun with their priests just as Pope talks of celibacy and says homsexual tendency is not conducive to be preachers of gospel truth, the holy robes of nuns are now replaced with ultra mod jeans and churidars and sarees, dressed to kill with sights only, and these nuns talk of getting raped but are not ready to co-operate with justice.?   Sadhvis who are renunciated of all the material wealth and comforts are the targets for the terror acts as the elections come nearer in India, hindus are only indulging in violence as all others who follow different faiths are peace loving, love to obey laws, law abiding.?   As one of the most powerful nation and its leader, America and its president, Obama has won the first round of this battle, by unification of minds for the change, let us hope he will encourage more positive energy to change for better, in body, mind and soul..The obsession to rule the world and its resources that led to all this fiscal mess, loss of lives of innocents in all faiths will change for compassionate share and care for all in the global village. From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In > In Bangladesh, we have a creature called bohurupi, many colored, many > faces, > chameleon. Now that it appears the Army is finally giving in and allowing > elections to happen December 18th and return to democracy, many bohurupis > will reverse their support of 1/11 and emerge as democrats. In America, > David Brooks is one such bohurupi. > > Brought into the NYT op-ed page in the face of ferocious and relentless > conservative attacks on the so-called "liberal" bias of the paper, he > proceeded to peddle asinine, conservative-lite pap over the last few > years, > including many justifications of Bush domestic policy platforms, and even > some simpering on foreign policy. > > Like Thomas Friedman, who will never admit that he was one of the many > pundits ("we break it we own it" and oh yes "countries with mcdonalds > don't > go to war w. each other"), who rah-rah'ed the train wreck of last 8 years, > Brooks will reinvent himself as a newborn Obama fan. > > > From: "taraprakash" >> >> OP-ED COLUMNIST. Change I Can Believe In. >> By DAVID BROOKS. I have dreams. I may seem like a boring pundit whose >> most >> exotic fantasies involve G.A.O. reports, but deep down, I have dreams.. >> And >> right now I'm dreaming of the successful presidency this country needs. >> I'm >> dreaming of an administration led by Barack Obama, but which stretches >> beyond the normal Democratic base. It makes time for moderate voters, >> suburban voters, rural voters and even people who voted for the other >> guy. >> >> The administration of my dreams understands where the country is today. >> Its >> members know that, as Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center put it on >> 'The >> NewsHour,' 'This was an election where the middle asserted itself. There >> was >> 'no sign' of a 'movement to the left. >> >> Only 17 percent of Americans trust the government to do the right thing >> most or all of the time, according to an October New York Times/CBS News >> poll. So the members of my dream Obama administration understand that >> they >> cannot impose an ideological program the country does not accept. New >> presidents in 1932 and 1964 could presuppose a basic level of trust in >> government. But today, as Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution >> observes, the new president is going to have to build that trust >> deliberately and step by step. >> >> Walking into the Obama White House of my dreams will be like walking into >> the Gates Foundation. The people there will be ostentatiously pragmatic >> and >> data-driven. They'll hunt good ideas like venture capitalists. They'll >> have >> no faith in all-powerful bureaucrats issuing edicts from the center. >> Instead, they'll use that language of decentralized networks, bottom-up >> reform and scalable innovation. >> >> They will actually believe in that stuff Obama says about postpartisan >> politics. That means there won't just be a few token liberal Republicans >> in >> marginal jobs. There will be people like Robert Gates at Defense and Ray >> LaHood, Stuart Butler, Diane Ravitch, Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Jim Talent >> at >> other important jobs. >> >> The Obama administration of my dreams will insist that Congressional >> Democrats reinstate bipartisan conference committees. They'll invite >> G.O.P. >> leaders to the White House for real meetings and then re-invite them, >> even >> if they give hostile press conferences on the White House driveway. >> >> They'll do things conservatives disagree with, but they'll also show that >> they're not toadies of the liberal interest groups. They'll insist on >> merit >> pay and preserving No Child Left Behind's accountability standards, no >> matter what the teachers' unions say. They'll postpone contentious fights >> on >> things like card check legislation. >> >> Most of all, they'll take significant action on the problems facing the >> country without causing a mass freak-out among voters to the right of >> Nancy >> Pelosi. >> >> They'll do this by explaining to the American people that there are two >> stages to their domestic policy thinking, the short-term and the >> long-term. >> >> The short-term strategy will have two goals: to mitigate the pain of the >> recession and the change the culture of Washington. The first step will >> be >> to complete the round of stimulus packages that are sure to come. >> >> Then they'll take up two ideas that already have bipartisan support: >> middle-class tax relief and an energy package. The current economic and >> energy crisis is an opportunity to do what was not done in similar >> circumstances in 1974 -- transform this country's energy supply. A >> comprehensive bill -- encompassing everything from off-shore drilling to >> green technologies -- would stimulate the economy and nurture new >> political >> coalitions. >> >> When the reDEFANGED.35552> ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 1:31:09 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Change I Can Believe In (we wi)   2. Final day of Naaz Hearings (Lawrence Liang) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:04:15 -0800 (PST) From: we wi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <409702.40106.qm at web45506.mail..sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Dear Tara & Naeem,         Its is not "bohurupi" but "bahurupa".  The word "bahurupa" have indepth meaning and roots.  I don't know about the creature "bohurupi", but a type of lizard can change colours as it is exposed to SUNLIGHT. About the usage of  "bahurupa"  actually it is not a HINDI/DEVANAGARI word but it is a SANSKRIT word. The people used to chant to worship the Adishakti(parvathi/kali/durga like this 1000 names ) and offer their prayers.   Bangladesh(East Bengal) was also a part of India earlier,That's how the word "bahurupa" spread across for people usage. The sacred word is being used for wrong context and purpose.  For your courtesy let me quote the hymn and its meaning word by word.    brahmaaNii brahmajananii bahuruupaa budhaarchitaa prasavitrii prachandaagya pratiShThaa prakaTaakR^itiH||   821. brahmANI        : She who is the tail that is brahman; the support for all 822. brahma            : She who is brahman 823.. jananI               : She who is the mother 824. bahu rUpA        : She who has a multitude of forms 825. budhArchitA      : She who is worshiped by the wise 826. prasavitrI           : She who is mother of the universe 827. prachaNDA       : She who is full of awe-inspiring wrath 828. AGYA              : She who is divine commandment herself 829. pratishhThA      : She who is the foundation 830. prakaTA kR^itiH: She who is manifested in the form of the universe   Regards, Dhatri.   --- On Sat, 11/8/08, taraprakash wrote: From: taraprakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In To: "Sarai" Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 12:11 AM Hi Naeem and all. As I have not read him so closely, I am not sure if your assessment of Brooks as "bohurupi" or "bahrupia" in Hindi, is farfetched or no, but I have read opEd articles by Brooks and Krugman, whose article on Obama I am soon going to forward, questioning his ability to deliver before Obama clinched his party nomination. In fact, New York Times had endorsed Hilary Clinton for the primaries. It will be nice to hear from you about the piece by this year's nobel laureate Paul Krugman. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- cession shows signs of bottoming out, then my dream >> administration would begin phase two. The long-term strategy would be >> about >> restoring fiscal balances and reforming fundamental institutions. >> >> By this time, the budget deficit could be zooming past $1.5 trillion a >> year. The U.S. will be borrowing oceans of money from abroad. My dream >> administration will show that it understands that the remedy for a >> culture >> of debt is not more long-term debt. It will side with those who worry >> that >> long-term deficits could lead to ruinous interest-rate hikes. >> >> My dream administration will announce a Budget Rebalancing Initiative. >> Somebody like Representative Jim Cooper would go through the budget and >> take >> out the programs and tax expenditures that don't work. If we have no >> spending cuts, then we're saying government is perfect. Nobody believes >> that,' Cooper says. >> >> Having built bipartisan relationships, having shown some fiscal >> toughness, >> having seen the economy through the tough times, my dream administration >> will then be in a position to take up health care reform, tax reform, >> education reform and a long-range infrastructure initiative. These >> reforms >> may have to start slow and on the cheap. But real reform would be >> imaginable >> since politics as we know it would be transformed. >> >> Is it all just a dream? I hope not. In any case, please be quiet and let >> me >> have my moment. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:22:11 -0500 >> From: "taraprakash" >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> To: "Sarai" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; >>        reply-type=original >> >> Hi Naga and all. >> Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers >> the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider >> the >> US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the >> first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism.. There are more to >> come. And more to be won. >> >> >> As Dushyant Kumar said >> >> Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi >> Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." >> >> (This wall made of sand has started shaking. >> But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) >> >> Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. >> But >> >> sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. >> >> (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) >> >> >> >> Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing >> skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. >> >> Regards >> TaraPrakash >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nagraj Adve" >> To: "taraprakash" >> Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> >> >> Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. >> I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a >> changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level >> and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to >> undermine, would not have come in 1991.. The rejection of Naidu in AP >> in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed >> to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in >> agriculture. >> >> One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to >> undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am >> delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how >> elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US >> election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in >> Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent >> interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be >> similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing >> change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton >> years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 >> million (33 to 41 million); the  bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions >> which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. >> >> So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not >> McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. >> >> Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely >> quote at the end of it. >> Naga >> >> On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: >> > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope >> > after >> > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud >> > to >> > be >> > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" >> > >> > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world >> > looks >> > at >> > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the >> world. >> > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more >> > room >> > to >> > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot >> > globalization. >> > >> > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or >> > more >> > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we >> have >> > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place >> > without >> > Dick and Bush. >> > >> > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh >> > mostly >> > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and >> > his >> > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. >> > There >> > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope >> > that >> > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal >> > overtures. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said >> > during >> > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism >> > has >> > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; >> > yes >> > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: >> > >> > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta >> > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. >> > >> > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, >> > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Nagraj Adve" >> > To: "gautam bhan" >> > Cc: "sarai list" >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> > >> > >> >> Dear Gautam, >> >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >> >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >> >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >> >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >> >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >> >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >> >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >> >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >> >> become Shanghai, after whichabout 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >> >> out of their jhopad pattis. >> >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >> >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >> >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >> >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >> >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >> >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >> >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >> >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >> >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >> >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >> >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >> >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >> >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >> >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >> >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >> >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >> >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >> >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >> >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >> >> that Obama has won. >> >> Naga >> >> >> >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>>  I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >> >>> wrote for elsewhere. >> >>> >> >>> - gautam >> >>> >> >>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >> >>> >> >>> A Letter from America >> >>> >> >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >> >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. >> >>> Usually, >> >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >> >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >> >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >> >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >> >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because >> >>> they >> >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >> >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India >> >>> we >> >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >> >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >> >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public >> >>> universities. >> >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >> >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and >> >>> look >> >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >> >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >> >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >> >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >> >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >> >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >> >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >> >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >> >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America >> >>> that >> >>> has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten >> >>> years >> >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >> >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >> >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >> >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >> >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >> >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, >> >>> for >> >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >> >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst >> >>> millions >> >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >> >>> >> >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race >> >>> will >> >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >> >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >> >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >> >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >> >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >> >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >> >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >> >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in >> >>> stories >> >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >> >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >> >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >> >>> >> >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >> >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >> >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >> >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >> >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >> >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that >> >>> is >> >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >> >>> change can understand and support. >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> reader-list mailing list >> reader-list at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 63 >> ******************************************* >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   - ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:30:58 +0530 From: "Lawrence Liang" Subject: [Reader-list] Final day of Naaz Hearings To: "Sarai Reader-list" Message-ID:     *Minutes of Naz Hearing 7.11.08  (Final Day of Naz hearings) * Mr B.P Singhal, began by producing some newspaper reports from the Hindustan Times and Pioneer and said he strongly objected to the reporting. His contention was that the papers misreported that the 'Court had pulled up Mr. Singhal'. He contended that 'it was gross contempt my Lord, the press has become the High Court and it was going beyond all limits. He observed that,'trespass was the order of the day and it was time for the Court to take action'. He also observed that,'the mother of all harms to the human body comes from homosexuality'. J. Shah expressed surprise at the reporting and said the Court would look into it. Mr Grover continued with his rejoinder by stating that in India the HIV epidemic is caused by different actors and that in India MSM were not fuelling the epidemic but rather it was female sex workers. As per the 2007 NACO study, there is an over all decline in infections in south and Northeast India. The decline in the south is because of interventions among FSW's. He submitted that you couldn't distribute condoms to MSM's , as then one will become abettors to the offence. The ASG intervened to say that nobody was saying that and that we are prepared to provide condoms to all. Mr Grover noted that it was not enough to say that they can come and get condoms but the state had to be proactive.  He noted that the state has an obligation to treat everyone and the importance of condom provision was proved as incidence of new infections among female sex workers had come down.  He submitted that if HIV spreads through homosexuality alone, it would have remained confined to homosexual population. But since this group was also having sex with the general population HIV spread to the general population. Hence if you scale up interventions with MSM, it will have a positive impact on the health of the wider society as well. He then submitted that under Art 21 the state had a burden to discharge, i.e. that there was a compelling state interest to intrude into the right of privacy. There was no such data by the state and in fact the state was divided in its opinion. ] With respect to the question of child sexual abuse and non consensual sex, the prayer was clear, since there is no law on child sexual abuse, the section as only been sought to be read down and not struck down. To the contention that there was no such thing as a minority, Mr Grover submitted that Art 14 was not restricted to the grounds enumerated under Art 15 and Art 16. With respect to the *Sakshi* judgment, he distinguished it as asking for an expansion of the meaning of sexual intercourse where as the prayer here was for a restricted reading. With respect to application of international law, he noted that the very incorporation of the dignity under Art 21 came via US law i.e. *Munn. V. Illinois.* There will be no effect on marriage laws if this prayer is granted and the introduction of consent based distinction is already there in Sec 375 and will not create any difficult problems. Mr. Grover noted that with respect to the main contention of morality, he noted that while morality is a valid ground under Art 19(2) it cannot be literally imported into Art 21 as a restriction. The state would have to show more than just morality, to restrict rights under Art 21. The understanding of *Maneka Gandhi* cant be that, we limit Art 21, but rather that we expand Art 21. J. Muralidhar gave the example of two statutes, one restricts a gay parade and another restricts a gay persons right to dress in a particular way, saying should wear suit only etc.  Can morality be a ground for restricting expression and right to profession as well ?  For example if an MSM is an advocate  and a Bar Council Rule prohibits him , clearly public decency and morality cant be ground for restricting the right to practice any profession . J. Shah  observed that if the state deprived a person of the right to health, could the state invoke morality as a ground  and whether restrictions under Art 19 were relevant at all ? Mr Grover noted that  pre Cooper there was a compartmentalized view and now you cant take that view.  You cant just say morality, but rather show that morality is a compelling state interest, On the point he read from an additional written submission, using quotations from *Dudgeon, Norris, Leung. * J. Shah then asked whether if one imagined that HIV was not there and the petitioner comes before the Court, the argument would not just be about the right to health and dignity would be central issue. Mr Grover agreed with the Bench and noted that if as a heterosexual person he walked in the park, it was unlikely that he would be arrested under Sec 377. Mr Shyam Divan for Voices Against 377 Mr. Divan submitted a note to the Court on the doctrine of severability , making the point that the doctrine of severability of enforcement would be of relevance the Court.. This might be done by granting a perpetual injunction restraining enforcement of the law on the forbidden field.. The principle derived from Chamarbaugwala's  case and cited by HM Seervai in his Constitutional Law of India,  is that applying the rule of 'severabilty in application', the Court may restrain the enforcement of a law or statutory provision in respect of that class of subjects of which the law in invalid. Here, Sec 377 insofar as it covers consensual same sex acts between adults. Mr Divan then submitted another note, which was a brief response to the oral submissions by the contending respondents. The judges perused the note and then Mr. Divan briefly made an oral submission on only one point – the question of public morality. 'The  right to live with dignity guaranteed to all persons. The declaration is necessary because it will enable LGBT persons to live with dignity and express a vital dimension of their identity. If identity and self worth are important, if full moral citizenship is important , then public morality cannot be allowed to trump it. The activity with respect to which the declaration is sought does not cause harm to any third party. Public morality is not a valid or sufficient justification to deny a person his dignity, particularly where the morality is not in itself a discernable constitutional value or morality. Indeed, in this context, it is the fundamental rights enshrined to protect minorities including sexual minorities that ought to prevail. Morality by itself, in the absence of any other harm cannot be a ground to restrict the right to live with dignity.' The Union of India and other intervenor respondents were given till Monday to file their written submissions and the matter was posted for final orders. Arvind Narrain - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 15:18:43 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:18:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lt.Col. Purohit and Arabic language lessons Message-ID: Freinds Some of us who have been following the Indian state's and media's versions of the "Islamic terrorism", we often wonder who invents the complex Arabic names of terror outfits: Lashkar-eToiba, Harkat-ul Jihadul-Islami, Harkat-ul whatever else. I wonder if Lt.Col.Purohit (who has accepted to being the mastermind of Malegaon bombing) was taking Arabic lessons to understand those names or to invent new ones. As an intelligence person, he was also "in touch" with many terrorist groups in Kashmir - that's what the report below tells us. I know that many languages including Arabic and Persian are taught to armymen, but if Purohit was using it for the benefit of the citizens of India, it was fine. But his use of Arabic to actually indulge in such an activity is very very intriguing and telling of what's to come in future. ===== http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=20439 CBI to question Lt Col Purohit 11/8/2008 10:57:25 AM Lt Col Shrikant Purohit, alleged mastermind of the Malegaon blast The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) will today (November 8) question Col Shrikant Purohit, the first serving army officer to be arrested in connection with the Malegaon blast that killed six on September 29. The CBI along with the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) will question Purohit in connection with the 2006 Nanded bomb blast. The blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a retired irrigation department engineer and RSS activist. The CBI along with the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) will question Purohit in connection with the 2006 Nanded bomb blast. The blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a retired irrigation department engineer and RSS activist. Confessions by those arrested in that incident, showed that they were planning retaliatory terror strikes. Col Purohit is already under investigation for his role in the September 29 Malegaon blast. Purohit has allegedly confessed to his role in the blasts. According to army sources Purohit was also known to Maj Upadhyay, another arrested ex servicemen. The two established contact while serving in Pune. Who is Lt Col Shrikant Purohit? Lt Col SP Purohit was schooled at the Bhonsala military school at Pune and then commissioned into the 15 Maratha light infantry in 1993. In 2002, he served in Kashmir and as an intelligence corps officer he is believed to have been in touch with militant outfits. In 2005, Purohit set up a cell of the Abhinav Bharat in Pune. Two years later, while serving in an army liaison cell he took Arabic lessons, all of which aroused suspicion. Both Upadhyay and Purohit had enough knowledge about explosives. Purohit has been charged with murder and conspiracy to commit terror. The ATS is likely to slap charges on him under the tough MCOCA. Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that the Mumbai ATS has asked the Army for permission to question three more army personnel in connection to the Malegaon blast. Two of the three with suspected links to the Malegaon blast are presently serving in the army. One is a serving Colonel in Deolali and the other a Lt Col posted in Madhya Pradesh. The third is believed to be an ex-army man of the rank of Colonel. The link of these servicemen has been pieced together on the basis of the confession of key suspect Lt Col Srikanth Purohit. From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 15:24:58 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:24:58 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 67 References: Message-ID: <732489.24374.qm@web94910.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Javed,    you are right when you say_ " when are the public shown evidence about the accused". Evidence that is gathered is presented to court for the adjudication during the trial of the accused, as you are aware, once it is recorded in the court, the evidence becomes "public" and it is the privilege of the investigating agency to decide which is the evidence that has to be presented and which is not to be. Judge after all decides on the evidence presented by the prosecution and also one more factor, the skills of the advocate, in defence or in prosecution, to prove beyond reasonable doubt, or to create enough doubt in process like in Geelanis case  so that accused gets reprieve.? ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:13:05 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 67 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: doubt about what, javed.? (Javed)   2. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66Fiscal mess,    global       economy and Barak Obama. (rajendra bhat) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:09:11 +0530 From: Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] doubt about what, javed.? To: "rajendra bhat" ,     "sarai list"     Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear Rajendra Bhatt This must be the most absurd logic I have ever heard about any judicial matter. If this piece of evidence was to be kept confidential, then how do you know about it? And in any case, when has public been shown any piece of evidence claimed by the police in so many cases. In the Jamia Nagar case, they said they have found AK-47 - did they show it to public. They said they've found a laptop in L-18 Batla House with photos of Osama - did they show it to public? And in your example, why couldn't only the judge and lawyers be shown the evidence and a decision be made based on that? I just don't believe the logic you have presented. Can you give a source for this? You said that even google does not show the detailed floor plan of the parliament. Guess what, I just saw Indian parliament on the google in as much detail as they show anything else on earth (this the maximum they show of anything). You are welcome to see it at the following link (please use the entire URL even if looks broken into 2-3 lines): http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Delhi&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.780156,86.572266&ie=UTF8&ll=28.617255,77.209189&spn=0.002698,0.005284&t=k&z=18 Also, if Geelani had access to the detailed floor plans of parliament (which could be used to destroy the place), what a damp squib they finally achieved - they could not even enter the parliament or harm any MP? They were trying to the premises in a white ambassador? What a stupid use of having detailed floor plans. Let me know if you have any other technical reasons for absolving Geelani. J On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Friend, >    if you have any doubts about the accused, be they muslims or hindus, the laws clearly state that  the accused are innocent till proved guilty..If you have doubts about those in Jamianagar, you should doubt that Geelani, who  is a terror sponsor, but not the other detainees. Geelani escaped with the help of a "criminal" lawyer paying hefty fee for the technical error of presented evidence. many may not even know that evidence, let me explain, in the mahazar signed by Geelani with two witnesses the plans of Parliament which are not in public domain were found, with all miniscule details and the prosecution had a tricky isue to present this evidence in the court of law, as once presented in court of laws, geelani would be convicted as he was in possession of plan and elevation of parliament which is considered as confidential, not in public domain, but once in documents of the court as evidence any one can access this piece of evidence and the >  parliament will be open to scrutiny by all including teorror planners.! This is the "technical" aspect of evidence as CBI and prosecution decided not to present this peice of evidence as to how he Geelani could obtain this evidence is million dollar issue as even google does not give this detailed floor plan of parliament.! > >  Such a person who planned and conspired to execute the attack is now "innocent" and specially invited to talk of communalism when he is muslim communal, terror sponsor.! Ofcourse there are many "secular" who love to love him for his handsome looks, and also are bordering on fascism to defend him.? > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:12:50 +0530 (IST) From: rajendra bhat Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66Fiscal     mess,    global economy and Barak Obama. To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <330934.9647.qm at web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" We can change, yes, each of us being the part of this universe and the system, we refuse to accept the change, though we give lip service to change, change is the only constant, but all living beings hate the change, being inert in the system, change is with lots of reluctance, when the change is totally unavoidable.?   Again the power of one is evident in society, be it the moral stand of Mohandas Karam chand Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Mohammed Ali alias Cassius clay, for positive change, or that negative changes of Hitler, mussolini, stalin or Mao, where the power of one shaped the societies to be positive with negative energy and negative with positive energy, the change sought by the devout Bush was positive, a world where terror is rooted out, but the change Bush sought with negative energy made body bags a reality for american mothers wives and children when Bush himself was safely guarded with high security.   Compare this with Gandhiji, who never had to depend on security for his "safety" of the body as his thoughts were positive, ofcourse with human fault lines as in division of nation with faith as the line of division. Todays Gandhis with z + security are not for change, with positive thoughts, but change for absolute power with conversion as credo to increase vote banks with numerical strengths of one faith.Democratic rule in global village , of which our nation is also inhabitant, is characterised by what is jokingly refered as "secular"  governance worse than the attack on nations such as Afghanistan and Iraq, where thousands have died as collateral damage of war on terror.The war has cost the economy of America quite dear, almost 8 billions in last few years, and our nation has lost quite a few billions in appeasement politics of vote banks in the last four years.  This fiscal mess that the whole global village is in is creation of the leaders of the nations with their personal ego trips, intolerence of others and their faiths. Action and reaction theories galore, secularists and fundamentalists all around,  excuses to justify the violence in all forms have made us all averse to change for good of humanity. Readers in the list are shocked if a bunch of students protest, without even bothering to see the roots of violent acts, the first to blame is the most peaceful harmonious way of life , that of hindus. Violence by cadres of communist is justified with qualifications, such as against farmers, against industry, then none looks at the faith of the cadres as communism does not have religion, though all its followers go for every durga pooja pendals to pray.?     Secular regional satraps have their goon cadres to coerce votes and threaten voters, but with violence when they rule the elections the religion or faith of these goon cadres is not important.? DMK and and its young leaders, Alaghiri and stalin, illustrious sons of karunanidhi, who claims to be athiest, has "padai" or goon cadres who rule the roost, but none ask why they are having the vibhuthi on their foreheads, as they always carry "longs" ( the slang for a four foot long sword.)      Missionaries who work on tribal mission, with all education of only god who helps the tribals, carry guns, are afraid of their mortal bodies, nuns are getting all fun with their priests just as Pope talks of celibacy and says homsexual tendency is not conducive to be preachers of gospel truth, the holy robes of nuns are now replaced with ultra mod jeans and churidars and sarees, dressed to kill with sights only, and these nuns talk of getting raped but are not ready to co-operate with justice.?   Sadhvis who are renunciated of all the material wealth and comforts are the targets for the terror acts as the elections come nearer in India, hindus are only indulging in violence as all others who follow different faiths are peace loving, love to obey laws, law abiding.?   As one of the most powerful nation and its leader, America and its president, Obama has won the first round of this battle, by unification of minds for the change, let us hope he will encourage more positive energy to change for better, in body, mind and soul..The obsession to rule the world and its resources that led to all this fiscal mess, loss of lives of innocents in all faiths will change for compassionate share and care for all in the global village. From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In > In Bangladesh, we have a creature called bohurupi, many colored, many > faces, > chameleon. Now that it appears the Army is finally giving in and allowing > elections to happen December 18th and return to democracy, many bohurupis > will reverse their support of 1/11 and emerge as democrats. In America, > David Brooks is one such bohurupi. > > Brought into the NYT op-ed page in the face of ferocious and relentless > conservative attacks on the so-called "liberal" bias of the paper, he > proceeded to peddle asinine, conservative-lite pap over the last few > years, > including many justifications of Bush domestic policy platforms, and even > some simpering on foreign policy. > > Like Thomas Friedman, who will never admit that he was one of the many > pundits ("we break it we own it" and oh yes "countries with mcdonalds > don't > go to war w. each other"), who rah-rah'ed the train wreck of last 8 years, > Brooks will reinvent himself as a newborn Obama fan. > > > From: "taraprakash" >> >> OP-ED COLUMNIST. Change I Can Believe In. >> By DAVID BROOKS. I have dreams. I may seem like a boring pundit whose >> most >> exotic fantasies involve G.A.O. reports, but deep down, I have dreams.. >> And >> right now I'm dreaming of the successful presidency this country needs. >> I'm >> dreaming of an administration led by Barack Obama, but which stretches >> beyond the normal Democratic base. It makes time for moderate voters, >> suburban voters, rural voters and even people who voted for the other >> guy. >> >> The administration of my dreams understands where the country is today. >> Its >> members know that, as Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center put it on >> 'The >> NewsHour,' 'This was an election where the middle asserted itself. There >> was >> 'no sign' of a 'movement to the left. >> >> Only 17 percent of Americans trust the government to do the right thing >> most or all of the time, according to an October New York Times/CBS News >> poll. So the members of my dream Obama administration understand that >> they >> cannot impose an ideological program the country does not accept. New >> presidents in 1932 and 1964 could presuppose a basic level of trust in >> government. But today, as Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution >> observes, the new president is going to have to build that trust >> deliberately and step by step. >> >> Walking into the Obama White House of my dreams will be like walking into >> the Gates Foundation. The people there will be ostentatiously pragmatic >> and >> data-driven. They'll hunt good ideas like venture capitalists. They'll >> have >> no faith in all-powerful bureaucrats issuing edicts from the center. >> Instead, they'll use that language of decentralized networks, bottom-up >> reform and scalable innovation. >> >> They will actually believe in that stuff Obama says about postpartisan >> politics. That means there won't just be a few token liberal Republicans >> in >> marginal jobs. There will be people like Robert Gates at Defense and Ray >> LaHood, Stuart Butler, Diane Ravitch, Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Jim Talent >> at >> other important jobs. >> >> The Obama administration of my dreams will insist that Congressional >> Democrats reinstate bipartisan conference committees. They'll invite >> G.O.P. >> leaders to the White House for real meetings and then re-invite them, >> even >> if they give hostile press conferences on the White House driveway. >> >> They'll do things conservatives disagree with, but they'll also show that >> they're not toadies of the liberal interest groups. They'll insist on >> merit >> pay and preserving No Child Left Behind's accountability standards, no >> matter what the teachers' unions say. They'll postpone contentious fights >> on >> things like card check legislation. >> >> Most of all, they'll take significant action on the problems facing the >> country without causing a mass freak-out among voters to the right of >> Nancy >> Pelosi. >> >> They'll do this by explaining to the American people that there are two >> stages to their domestic policy thinking, the short-term and the >> long-term. >> >> The short-term strategy will have two goals: to mitigate the pain of the >> recession and the change the culture of Washington. The first step will >> be >> to complete the round of stimulus packages that are sure to come. >> >> Then they'll take up two ideas that already have bipartisan support: >> middle-class tax relief and an energy package. The current economic and >> energy crisis is an opportunity to do what was not done in similar >> circumstances in 1974 -- transform this country's energy supply. A >> comprehensive bill -- encompassing everything from off-shore drilling to >> green technologies -- would stimulate the economy and nurture new >> political >> coalitions. >> >> When the reDEFANGED.35552> >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:22:11 -0500 >> From: "taraprakash" >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> To: "Sarai" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; >>        reply-type=original >> >> Hi Naga and all. >> Yes. You should be on your toes, all of us should be. If the US considers >> the entire world its property, the entire world has a right to consider >> the >> US its own. All of us have stakes in this country. Obama's victory is the >> first battle won in the major war on greedy capitalism.. There are more to >> come. And more to be won. >> >> >> As Dushyant Kumar said >> >> Ret ki divar pardon ki tarah hilne lagi >> Shart lekin thi ki ye buniyad hilni cahie." >> >> (This wall made of sand has started shaking. >> But the condition was that thd whole foundation should shake.) >> >> Sorry for the bad translation, but yes, all it might be a sweet dream. >> But >> >> sabse khatarnaak hota hai, sapnon ka mar jana. >> >> (death of dreams is the most dangerous thing to happen) >> >> >> >> Let us give Obama a fair chance before passing judgements, or showing >> skepticism, actually he is yet to assume office. >> >> Regards >> TaraPrakash >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nagraj Adve" >> To: "taraprakash" >> Cc: "gautam bhan" ; "sarai list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> >> >> Lovely quote at the end, Taraprakash. >> I was not comparing Obama and Manmohan but that 2004 in India was a >> changed time - for instance, NREGA, which elites at the local level >> and limited political will from the centre are trying their best to >> undermine, would not have come in 1991.. The rejection of Naidu in AP >> in particular reflected this. Yet the Manmohan administration managed >> to push more anti-poor reforms. The latest area they are trying is in >> agriculture. >> >> One question for me at the time, and since, is how elites manage to >> undermine democratic processes, as Manmohan did. Again, while I am >> delighted that Obama has won, a question facing us very soon is how >> elites in the US will attempt to blunt the message of this US >> election. And what we can do (I use 'we' loosely since I am based in >> Delhi) to make sure they stay honest politically. In a recent >> interview on ZNet Chomsky has argued that Obama will probably be >> similar to Clinton's politics in the 1990s. Which is a refreshing >> change from Bush Sr and Jr. But let us not forget that the Clinton >> years saw a rise in people without health insurance in the US by 8 >> million (33 to 41 million); the  bombing of Kosovo; the Iraq sanctions >> which his Secy of State Albright infamously defended. >> >> So while I'm enormously glad the US has a black president, and not >> McCain, I'd rather be on my toes politically. >> >> Look forward to your response, particularly if it has another lovely >> quote at the end of it. >> Naga >> >> On 06/11/2008, taraprakash wrote: >> > Yes, the hopes are too high. Perhaps nothing generated as much hope >> > after >> > 1968 as did Obama's presidency. I was not born in 1968 but I am proud >> > to >> > be >> > actively involved in this "giant leap for humanity" >> > >> > This change in leadership will definitely change the way the world >> > looks >> > at >> > the US. It will also change the way the US looks at the rest of the >> world. >> > The hawks will be replaced by human beings. Diplomacy will have more >> > room >> > to >> > work. I am sure corporate globalization will be replaced by grassroot >> > globalization. >> > >> > And may be the days of the ideologies that divide humanity in to two or >> > more >> > poles are numbered. But may be we are being too optimistic. Still, we >> have >> > reason to celebrate. The world will definitely be a better place >> > without >> > Dick and Bush. >> > >> > I don't think we should compare Manmohan and Obama. Manmohan Singh >> > mostly >> > practiced what he preached. If someone ignored the past of Manmohan and >> > his >> > party and took their statements at face value, it is not their fault. >> > There >> > is nothing in Obama's past that gives cause for skepticism. let's hope >> > that >> > his statements about invading Pakistan are nothing more than verbal >> > overtures.. Let's also hope that he meant the positive things he said >> > during >> > his campaign. It is not good to be very optimistic, however, cynicism >> > has >> > been with us for too long. Let's try to change our outlook for a while; >> > yes >> > we can. As Dushyant Kumar said: >> > >> > Kaun kahta hai aasman mein surakh naheen ho sakta >> > Ek patthar to tabiyat se uchalo yaro. >> > >> > (Who says you can't make a hole in the sky, >> > How about hurling a stone at it with conviction) >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Nagraj Adve" >> > To: "gautam bhan" >> > Cc: "sarai list" >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:16 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Congratulations America >> > >> > >> >> Dear Gautam, >> >> Nice piece of writing (as usual) but since I have in recent times >> >> acquired a somewhat bleak view of larger political change, I was >> >> throughout today thinking of the 2004 elections in India and what >> >> heppened thereafter. Manmohan Singh came to power on the back of a >> >> emphatic rejection of economic reforms (and the BJP variant of >> >> communal politics). He then proceeded to anoint Montek Ahluwalia and >> >> Chidambaram (he of the Dow Chemicals fame) in key positions. His first >> >> trip outside Delhi was to Bombay where he expressed a wish that Bombay >> >> become Shanghai, after whichabout 3 lakh people were forcibly thrown >> >> out of their jhopad pattis. >> >> I don't know how to say what I will without sounding arrogant. I too >> >> am deeply glad that Obama is President and not McCain (and also that >> >> Sarah Palin is not VP); Obama's vote if nothing else means too much >> >> for black Americans, others in America (as your mail says) and for so >> >> many others the world over. But for me he more so reflects change that >> >> has already happened in the US and elsewhere, which his administration >> >> will try their best to blunt. On foreign policy it is now old hat that >> >> Democrats have been little different from Republicans since Vietnam, >> >> including Clinton. On this too, Obama will reflect some change but >> >> only slightly if I were to believe statements he has made on Pakistan, >> >> Iraq and particularly his vice president's views on Iraq. >> >> The key difference would perhaps be on domestic policy in the US, >> >> particularly on the nature of intervention in the massive economic >> >> crisis t faces. One hopes rather than lend money to banks alone, his >> >> administration might push welfare, public spending, etc. Quite likely. >> >> Without letting this mail run on for too long, he is President because >> >> people are emphatically demanding more. So let's see how we can demand >> >> even more (and also change things more fuindamentally) rather than be >> >> easily satisfied. I can say that without being one iota less happy >> >> that Obama has won. >> >> Naga >> >> >> >> On 05/11/2008, gautam bhan wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>>  I dont usually post on the list, but thought I'd share a piece I >> >>> wrote for elsewhere. >> >>> >> >>> - gautam >> >>> >>DEFANGED.7> ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 1:31:09 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Change I Can Believe In (we wi)   2. Final day of Naaz Hearings (Lawrence Liang) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:04:15 -0800 (PST) From: we wi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <409702.40106.qm at web45506.mail..sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Dear Tara & Naeem,         Its is not "bohurupi" but "bahurupa".  The word "bahurupa" have indepth meaning and roots.  I don't know about the creature "bohurupi", but a type of lizard can change colours as it is exposed to SUNLIGHT. About the usage of  "bahurupa"  actually it is not a HINDI/DEVANAGARI word but it is a SANSKRIT word. The people used to chant to worship the Adishakti(parvathi/kali/durga like this 1000 names ) and offer their prayers.   Bangladesh(East Bengal) was also a part of India earlier,That's how the word "bahurupa" spread across for people usage. The sacred word is being used for wrong context and purpose.  For your courtesy let me quote the hymn and its meaning word by word.    brahmaaNii brahmajananii bahuruupaa budhaarchitaa prasavitrii prachandaagya pratiShThaa prakaTaakR^itiH||   821. brahmANI        : She who is the tail that is brahman; the support for all 822. brahma            : She who is brahman 823.. jananI               : She who is the mother 824. bahu rUpA        : She who has a multitude of forms 825. budhArchitA      : She who is worshiped by the wise 826. prasavitrI           : She who is mother of the universe 827.. prachaNDA       : She who is full of awe-inspiring wrath 828. AGYA              : She who is divine commandment herself 829. pratishhThA      : She who is the foundation 830. prakaTA kR^itiH: She who is manifested in the form of the universe   Regards, Dhatri.   --- On Sat, 11/8/08, taraprakash wrote: From: taraprakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Change I Can Believe In To: "Sarai" Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 12:11 AM Hi Naeem and all. As I have not read him so closely, I am not sure if your assessment of Brooks as "bohurupi" or "bahrupia" in Hindi, is farfetched or no, but I have read opEd articles by Brooks and Krugman, whose article on Obama I am soon going to forward, questioning his ability to deliver before Obama clinched his party nomination. In fact, New York Times had endorsed Hilary Clinton for the primaries. It will be nice to hear from you about the piece by this year's nobel laureate Paul Krugman. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- cession shows signs of bottoming out, then my dream >> administration would begin phase two. The long-term strategy would be >> about >> restoring fiscal balances and reforming fundamental institutions. >> >> By this time, the budget deficit could be zooming past $1.5 trillion a >> year. The U.S. will be borrowing oceans of money from abroad. My dream >> administration will show that it understands that the remedy for a >> culture >> of debt is not more long-term debt. It will side with those who worry >> that >> long-term deficits could lead to ruinous interest-rate hikes. >> >> My dream administration will announce a Budget Rebalancing Initiative. >> Somebody like Representative Jim Cooper would go through the budget and >> take >> out the programs and tax expenditures that don't work. If we have no >> spending cuts, then we're saying government is perfect. Nobody believes >> that,' Cooper says. >> >> Having built bipartisan relationships, having shown some fiscal >> toughness, >> having seen the economy through the tough times, my dream administration >> will then be in a position to take up health care reform, tax reform, >> education reform and a long-range infrastructure initiative. These >> reforms >> may have to start slow and on the cheap. But real reform would be >> imaginable >> since politics as we know it would be transformed. >> >> Is it all just a dream? I hope not. In any case, please be quiet and let >> me >> have my moment. >> >> >> ------------------------------>>> Cross-posted from Kafila.org >> >>> >> >>> A Letter from America >> >>> >> >>> I was out all night in Oakland, California, last night. One of the >> >>> most "dangerous" cities in the country, crime statistics say. >> >>> Usually, >> >>> that's always code for historic black neighborhoods. This one is no >> >>> different. Close to us are some of the districts and towns worst hit >> >>> by the foreclosure crisis: one in three homes in parts of California >> >>> are now owned by banks and not people. A generation of voters in this >> >>> district remember what it was like not being able to vote because >> >>> they >> >>> were black. This is part of the America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> My students are predominantly white. This is Berkeley, California, >> >>> with some of the most progressive affirmative action [what in India >> >>> we >> >>> call reservation] policies, and so many, many of them are also Asian >> >>> American and Latino. There are still preciously few African America >> >>> students at the college level, even at subsidized public >> >>> universities. >> >>> My students are mostly about twenty. They have the freedom not to >> >>> remember Reagan and Thatcher. They use the word "past" rarely and >> >>> look >> >>> only in one direction. They are a generation long described as the >> >>> apathetic children of technology. They are an America that has not >> >>> easily inherited the arrogance that so easily slips in with power. >> >>> This is another part of America that has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> I saw the election results come in with community organisers, >> >>> activists, people who work in everyday America. Their tears are tears >> >>> I recognize from the defeat of the Hindutva and India Shining. They >> >>> are tears of relief and of belief. Tears that remind you that the >> >>> slow, thankless, everyday work of social change has a horizon that is >> >>> bigger than our individual lives. This is another part of America >> >>> that >> >>> has elected Obama. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> There was a different America on the streets last night - in ten >> >>> years >> >>> of going in and out of this country, I have never seen it like this. >> >>> Cars were honking, people walking the streets openly crying and >> >>> celebrating with strangers, spontaneous gatherings of people at every >> >>> corner, public buses lit up, hope and joy were in abundance. America >> >>> doesn't do public displays of politics or affection - it doesn't rush >> >>> out on streets for much other than sports. It hasn't, in any case, >> >>> for >> >>> a very long time. Jesse Jackson, one of the most famous black >> >>> Americans other than Martin Luther King, openly crying amidst >> >>> millions >> >>> in Grant Park in Chicago is a sight I wont lightly forget. >> >>> >> >>> Not everything will change with Obama, but change they will. Race >> >>> will >> >>> not disappear, but it will never be the same again. Structural >> >>> inclusion and inequality might not vanish tomorrow, but its pipes and >> >>> planks will be made visible. America might not change all that angers >> >>> much of the world towards it, but it will not be able to so easily be >> >>> so naked in its power. To think of Obama is not to judge whether this >> >>> hope will turn out to be real or false — the point is that it is hope >> >>> at all. This hope, even if all its promises fail after a time, will >> >>> have unintended consequences. Unintended consequences that, in >> >>> stories >> >>> of the everyday, are in the end what help people change their lives. >> >>> Leaders come and go, but it is the unintended consequences of hope >> >>> that leave lasting, if infinitesimal, change. >> >>> >> >>> After eight years of Bush, Sept 11, a financial crisis, two divisive >> >>> wars, deepening poverty, and horrid clashes on moral values, this >> >>> landslide victory is the story of a scarred, hurt, and scared nation, >> >>> shaken from its arrogance by a series of blows, trying to slowly look >> >>> inside and heal itself. No matter what we think of America, its >> >>> imperialism, its role in global successes and tragedies alike, that >> >>> is >> >>> a process all of us, in every country who have ever tried to think of >> >>> change can understand and support. >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> reader-list mailing list >> reader-list at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 63 >> ******************************************* >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   - ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:30:58 +0530 From: "Lawrence Liang" Subject: [Reader-list] Final day of Naaz Hearings To: "Sarai Reader-list" Message-ID:     *Minutes of Naz Hearing 7.11.08  (Final Day of Naz hearings) * Mr B.P Singhal, began by producing some newspaper reports from the Hindustan Times and Pioneer and said he strongly objected to the reporting. His contention was that the papers misreported that the 'Court had pulled up Mr. Singhal'. He contended that 'it was gross contempt my Lord, the press has become the High Court and it was going beyond all limits. He observed that,'trespass was the order of the day and it was time for the Court to take action'. He also observed that,'the mother of all harms to the human body comes from homosexuality'. J. Shah expressed surprise at the reporting and said the Court would look into it. Mr Grover continued with his rejoinder by stating that in India the HIV epidemic is caused by different actors and that in India MSM were not fuelling the epidemic but rather it was female sex workers. As per the 2007 NACO study, there is an over all decline in infections in south and Northeast India. The decline in the south is because of interventions among FSW's. He submitted that you couldn't distribute condoms to MSM's , as then one will become abettors to the offence. The ASG intervened to say that nobody was saying that and that we are prepared to provide condoms to all. Mr Grover noted that it was not enough to say that they can come and get condoms but the state had to be proactive.  He noted that the state has an obligation to treat everyone and the importance of condom provision was proved as incidence of new infections among female sex workers had come down.  He submitted that if HIV spreads through homosexuality alone, it would have remained confined to homosexual population. But since this group was also having sex with the general population HIV spread to the general population. Hence if you scale up interventions with MSM, it will have a positive impact on the health of the wider society as well. He then submitted that under Art 21 the state had a burden to discharge, i.e. that there was a compelling state interest to intrude into the right of privacy. There was no such data by the state and in fact the state was divided in its opinion. ] With respect to the question of child sexual abuse and non consensual sex, the prayer was clear, since there is no law on child sexual abuse, the section as only been sought to be read down and not struck down. To the contention that there was no such thing as a minority, Mr Grover submitted that Art 14 was not restricted to the grounds enumerated under Art 15 and Art 16. With respect to the *Sakshi* judgment, he distinguished it as asking for an expansion of the meaning of sexual intercourse where as the prayer here was for a restricted reading. With respect to application of international law, he noted that the very incorporation of the dignity under Art 21 came via US law i.e.. *Munn. V. Illinois.* There will be no effect on marriage laws if this prayer is granted and the introduction of consent based distinction is already there in Sec 375 and will not create any difficult problems. Mr. Grover noted that with respect to the main contention of morality, he noted that while morality is a valid ground under Art 19(2) it cannot be literally imported into Art 21 as a restriction. The state would have to show more than just morality, to restrict rights under Art 21. The understanding of *Maneka Gandhi* cant be that, we limit Art 21, but rather that we expand Art 21. J. Muralidhar gave the example of two statutes, one restricts a gay parade and another restricts a gay persons right to dress in a particular way, saying should wear suit only etc.  Can morality be a ground for restricting expression and right to profession as well ?  For example if an MSM is an advocate  and a Bar Council Rule prohibits him , clearly public decency and morality cant be ground for restricting the right to practice any profession . J. Shah  observed that if the state deprived a person of the right to health, could the state invoke morality as a ground  and whether restrictions under Art 19 were relevant at all ? Mr Grover noted that  pre Cooper there was a compartmentalized view and now you cant take that view.  You cant just say morality, but rather show that morality is a compelling state interest, On the point he read from an additional written submission, using quotations from *Dudgeon, Norris, Leung. * J. Shah then asked whether if one imagined that HIV was not there and the petitioner comes before the Court, the argument would not just be about the right to health and dignity would be central issue. Mr Grover agreed with the Bench and noted that if as a heterosexual person he walked in the park, it was unlikely that he would be arrested under Sec 377. Mr Shyam Divan for Voices Against 377 Mr. Divan submitted a note to the Court on the doctrine of severability , making the point that the doctrine of severability of enforcement would be of relevance the Court.. This might be done by granting a perpetual injunction restraining enforcement of the law on the forbidden field.. The principle derived from Chamarbaugwala's  case and cited by HM Seervai in his Constitutional Law of India,  is that applying the rule of 'severabilty in application', the Court may restrain the enforcement of a law or statutory provision in respect of that class of subjects of which the law in invalid. Here, Sec 377 insofar as it covers consensual same sex acts between adults. Mr Divan then submitted another note, which was a brief response to the oral submissions by the contending respondents. The judges perused the note and then Mr. Divan briefly made an oral submission on only one point – the question of public morality. 'The  right to live with dignity guaranteed to all persons. The declaration is necessary because it will enable LGBT persons to live with dignity and express a vital dimension of their identity. If identity and self worth are important, if full moral citizenship is important , then public morality cannot be allowed to trump it. The activity with respect to which the declaration is sought does not cause harm to any third party. Public morality is not a valid or sufficient justification to deny a person his dignity, particularly where the morality is not in itself a discernable constitutional value or morality. Indeed, in this context, it is the fundamental rights enshrined to protect minorities including sexual minorities that ought to prevail. Morality by itself, in the absence of any other harm cannot be a ground to restrict the right to live with dignity.' The Union of India and other intervenor respondents were given till Monday to file their written submissions and the matter was posted for final orders. Arvind Narrain - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 66 *******************************************       Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger..yahoo.com/invite/ - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 67 ******************************************* Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 15:37:05 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:37:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kerala probing SIMI links with Parliament attack accused Message-ID: <6353c690811080207j3bd3c0f6nc62e14b4c5c520d4@mail.gmail.com> Kerala probing SIMI links with Parliament attack accused 8 Nov 2008, 0312 hrs IST, Ananthakrishnan G, TNN THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Kerala's terror links seem to be getting murkier. The state government on Friday told the Kerala high court that it was probing whether some alleged SIMI activists, who had taken part in a meeting held by the banned outfit at Panayikkulam in Ernakulam district, had any links with those accused in the 2001 Parliament attack case, one of them being Delhi University lecturer, SAR Geelani. The submission came on a plea by the state seeking cancellation of the bail granted to two men who had attended the meeting on August 15, 2006. Shameer and Abdul Hakeem had been arrested recently during the crackdown on terror modules after revelations that four of those killed by security forces in Jammu & Kashmir early last month were from Kerala. The duo, named as sixth and seventh accused in the case, got bail after police failed to substantiate charges against them. Requesting the HC to cancel their bail, government pleader M S Sukumaran said during a search of their houses the police had recovered two CDs, containing a portrait of DU lecturer Geelani, who was arrested and later acquitted in the Parliament attack case. The CDs have been sent for forensic tests to find out whether there is any link between them and any of the accused in the Parliament attack case, he submitted. Sukumaran also contended that the first and third accused in the case were in the custody of Jaipur police for being members of the banned outfit. Among the 18 people who attended the Panayikkulam meet of SIMI were Ansar Moulavi and Shaduli, held for allegedly plotting the May 13, 2008 Jaipur blasts. Link - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Kerala_probing_SIMI_links_with_Parliament_attack_accused/articleshow/3687589.cms From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 15:40:23 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:40:23 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lt.Col. Purohit and Arabic language lessons References: Message-ID: <988816.37064.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Javed,    how is it that you are jumping to conclusions at the investigation stage itself, when the trial has not even commenced, chargesheet is not ye filed, different set of rules apply to different set of individuals.? Your entire surmise is dependent on news and views of tv channels and their anchors who for trp would do anything, as seen now, with anchors acting as item numbers in news and views.?Special song and dance numbers and programmes of islamic and hindu terror, green and saffron terror.?  By the way, not a single officer of ATS or CBI has shown his face to press or media, has given any details officially, unlike Aarushi murder investigation, Batla house incidents, but "our sources" in ATS have told full details of "investigation" to anchors and selective channels, for "exclusive" coverage, what exactly is the consideration for this exclusive coverage material for the individuals who are "our sources" for the channels and anchors, is it the size that matters.? The question has arisen because all the crime reporters are a large  size entities.!   Even hard core terrorists and Fake stamp paper convicts did not have these many sessions of narco and brain mapping sessions.? But the amusing factor is the anchors and visual media is having "exclusive" information from  "our sources." It makes me wonder, how these sources part with details of investigation so exclusively, for what consideration.? Shivani Bhatnagar was also a journalist who had exclusive details of some political bigwigs.! By the way, it was investigation and co-operation that failed the process in Australia for one doctor as MEA did not have had the details of financial transactions of the doctor faxed on time to the prosecution in Australia, and for exclusive interview, it was alleged that one channel negotiated and paid 4,00,000 australian dollars to brother in law of that doctor.! ----- Original Message ---- From: Javed To: sarai list ; rajendra bhat ; Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; Aditya Raj Kaul Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:18:43 PM Subject: Lt.Col. Purohit and Arabic language lessons Freinds Some of us who have been following the Indian state's and media's versions of the "Islamic terrorism", we often wonder who invents the complex Arabic names of terror outfits: Lashkar-eToiba, Harkat-ul Jihadul-Islami, Harkat-ul whatever else. I wonder if Lt.Col.Purohit (who has accepted to being the mastermind of Malegaon bombing) was taking Arabic lessons to understand those names or to invent new ones. As an intelligence person, he was also "in touch" with many terrorist groups in Kashmir - that's what the report below tells us. I know that many languages including Arabic and Persian are taught to armymen, but if Purohit was using it for the benefit of the citizens of India, it was fine. But his use of Arabic to actually indulge in such an activity is very very intriguing and telling of what's to come in future. ===== http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=20439 CBI to question Lt Col Purohit 11/8/2008 10:57:25 AM Lt Col Shrikant Purohit, alleged mastermind of the Malegaon blast The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) will today (November 8) question Col Shrikant Purohit, the first serving army officer to be arrested in connection with the Malegaon blast that killed six on September 29. The CBI along with the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) will question Purohit in connection with the 2006 Nanded bomb blast. The blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a retired irrigation department engineer and RSS activist. The CBI along with the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) will question Purohit in connection with the 2006 Nanded bomb blast. The blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a retired irrigation department engineer and RSS activist. Confessions by those arrested in that incident, showed that they were planning retaliatory terror strikes. Col Purohit is already under investigation for his role in the September 29 Malegaon blast. Purohit has allegedly confessed to his role in the blasts. According to army sources Purohit was also known to Maj Upadhyay, another arrested ex servicemen. The two established contact while serving in Pune. Who is Lt Col Shrikant Purohit? Lt Col SP Purohit was schooled at the Bhonsala military school at Pune and then commissioned into the 15 Maratha light infantry in 1993. In 2002, he served in Kashmir and as an intelligence corps officer he is believed to have been in touch with militant outfits. In 2005, Purohit set up a cell of the Abhinav Bharat in Pune. Two years later, while serving in an army liaison cell he took Arabic lessons, all of which aroused suspicion. Both Upadhyay and Purohit had enough knowledge about explosives. Purohit has been charged with murder and conspiracy to commit terror. The ATS is likely to slap charges on him under the tough MCOCA. Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that the Mumbai ATS has asked the Army for permission to question three more army personnel in connection to the Malegaon blast. Two of the three with suspected links to the Malegaon blast are presently serving in the army. One is a serving Colonel in Deolali and the other a Lt Col posted in Madhya Pradesh. The third is believed to be an ex-army man of the rank of Colonel. The link of these servicemen has been pieced together on the basis of the confession of key suspect Lt Col Srikanth Purohit. Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 15:58:15 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:58:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lt.Col. Purohit and Arabic language lessons In-Reply-To: <988816.37064.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <988816.37064.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajendra Now you have come to the point. People were asking the same question in the case of Batla House encounter and other previous terror cases: HOW does media decide on its own even before the charge-sheet, the remand, the court apearance and so on? Yes we have come to the common ground now. Media is neither your friend nor mine. Many people jumped to the conclusions even then. But I asked you: where did you get the story about the "technical" ground of Geelani's acquittal (his having Parliament floor plan) - I would be keen to know your source... J On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 3:40 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Javed, > how is it that you are jumping to conclusions at the investigation stage itself, when the trial has not even commenced, chargesheet is not ye filed, different set of rules apply to different set of individuals.? Your entire surmise is dependent on news and views of tv channels and their anchors who for trp would do anything, as seen now, with anchors acting as item numbers in news and views.?Special song and dance numbers and programmes of islamic and hindu terror, green and saffron terror.? > > By the way, not a single officer of ATS or CBI has shown his face to press or media, has given any details officially, unlike Aarushi murder investigation, Batla house incidents, but "our sources" in ATS have told full details of "investigation" to anchors and selective channels, for "exclusive" coverage, what exactly is the consideration for this exclusive coverage material for the individuals who are "our sources" for the channels and anchors, is it the size that matters.? The question has arisen because all the crime reporters are a large size entities.! > > Even hard core terrorists and Fake stamp paper convicts did not have these many sessions of narco and brain mapping sessions.? But the amusing factor is the anchors and visual media is having "exclusive" information from "our sources." > It makes me wonder, how these sources part with details of investigation so exclusively, for what consideration.? Shivani Bhatnagar was also a journalist who had exclusive details of some political bigwigs.! By the way, it was investigation and co-operation that failed the process in Australia for one doctor as MEA did not have had the details of financial transactions of the doctor faxed on time to the prosecution in Australia, and for exclusive interview, it was alleged that one channel negotiated and paid 4,00,000 australian dollars to brother in law of that doctor.! > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Javed > To: sarai list ; rajendra bhat ; Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; Aditya Raj Kaul > Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:18:43 PM > Subject: Lt.Col. Purohit and Arabic language lessons > > Freinds > Some of us who have been following the Indian state's and media's > versions of the "Islamic terrorism", we often wonder who invents the > complex Arabic names of terror outfits: Lashkar-eToiba, Harkat-ul > Jihadul-Islami, Harkat-ul whatever else. I wonder if Lt.Col.Purohit > (who has accepted to being the mastermind of Malegaon bombing) was > taking Arabic lessons to understand those names or to invent new ones. > As an intelligence person, he was also "in touch" with many terrorist > groups in Kashmir - that's what the report below tells us. I know that > many languages including Arabic and Persian are taught to armymen, but > if Purohit was using it for the benefit of the citizens of India, it > was fine. But his use of Arabic to actually indulge in such an > activity is very very intriguing and telling of what's to come in > future. > > ===== > > http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=20439 > > CBI to question Lt Col Purohit > 11/8/2008 10:57:25 AM > Lt Col Shrikant Purohit, alleged mastermind of the Malegaon blast > > The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) will today (November 8) > question Col Shrikant Purohit, the first serving army officer to be > arrested in connection with the Malegaon blast that killed six on > September 29. > > The CBI along with the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) will > question Purohit in connection with the 2006 Nanded bomb blast. The > blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a > retired irrigation department engineer and RSS activist. > > The CBI along with the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) will > question Purohit in connection with the 2006 Nanded bomb blast. The > blast in Nanded had taken place on April 6, 2006 at the residence of a > retired irrigation department engineer and RSS activist. > > Confessions by those arrested in that incident, showed that they were > planning retaliatory terror strikes. > > Col Purohit is already under investigation for his role in the > September 29 Malegaon blast. Purohit has allegedly confessed to his > role in the blasts. According to army sources Purohit was also known > to Maj Upadhyay, another arrested ex servicemen. The two established > contact while serving in Pune. > > Who is Lt Col Shrikant Purohit? > > Lt Col SP Purohit was schooled at the Bhonsala military school at Pune > and then commissioned into the 15 Maratha light infantry in 1993. > > In 2002, he served in Kashmir and as an intelligence corps officer he > is believed to have been in touch with militant outfits. > > In 2005, Purohit set up a cell of the Abhinav Bharat in Pune. > > Two years later, while serving in an army liaison cell he took Arabic > lessons, all of which aroused suspicion. Both Upadhyay and Purohit had > enough knowledge about explosives. > > Purohit has been charged with murder and conspiracy to commit terror. > The ATS is likely to slap charges on him under the tough MCOCA. > > Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that the Mumbai ATS has asked the > Army for permission to question three more army personnel in > connection to the Malegaon blast. > > Two of the three with suspected links to the Malegaon blast are > presently serving in the army. One is a serving Colonel in Deolali and > the other a Lt Col posted in Madhya Pradesh. The third is believed to > be an ex-army man of the rank of Colonel. > > The link of these servicemen has been pieced together on the basis of > the confession of key suspect Lt Col Srikanth Purohit. > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Nov 8 15:54:56 2008 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:24:56 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Is India Ready for a National Identity Card? Message-ID: <65be9bf40811080224x39d504aete0bbf6a9a927609f@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Taking the recent debates on the reader list as a point of departure. I wish to open a new point of discussion. These debates are rooted in identity politics located within a nation state. Over the last sixty years the Market is trying to capitalize on the obsession of national and sub-national groups to identity individuals, groups and communities. This has resulted in a need to rely on documents to vouch for one's identity. Earlier the identity documents were paper based, like Ration Cards. Then new technology enabled the use of paper with a photograph like the voter identity card. These days it is usually a digital smart card. As India is gearing to introduce the National Identity Card, the share prices of companies dealing with the manufacture and distribution of identity cards is soaring. Below is an essay that I have written as part of my work with Information Society Project at Sarai. The essay engages with the question of identity from a range of perspectives. Identity- is discussed with respect to history, to popular culture, to sociology, and to contemporary governmental thought. Regards Taha ------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fuzzy logics, double meanings and ethnic ambiguities Taha Mehmood The present day 'terrorist' is a man who thinks. He is a planner. No one knows his name or his past. When and where does he come from? No one knows. He could be anyone or no one. He could be the one sitting beside you in a theatre or a local train, or a bank's teller or a cigarette/tobacco vendor. He is intelligent and dangerous. He has to be found. (Fanaa 2006) Introduction The Indian Government is gearing up to prepare a national database of all citizens and distribute national identity cards to a billion people. This represents a historical milestone, and offers an opportunity to think about a whole spectrum of issues of technology, citizenship and governance. For instance, how does a modern nationstate grapple with issues of visibility and invisibility or identity and anonymity? What tropes of political and bureaucratic rhetoric does the state mobilize to assert its claim for initiating the processes of visibility? How do existing social conditions change in the face of such processes? What sort of transformations do these processes of visibility inaugurate, especially between the state and the individual? What strategies does an individual engage to respond to these transformations? Through this chapter, I explore some of the above-mentioned questions, specifically with regard to the introduction of the proposed 'Multipurpose National Identity Card' (MNIC) in India. The MNIC is the first citizenship document of its kind in the country, especially in its proposed comprehensive reach: a national register of citizens, a national register of non-citizens and a national register of residency. Developments and shifts in the modes and meaning of state surveillance The history of the consolidation of the idea of the nation-state, especially after the French Revolution, and the resultant anxieties of national bureaucracies to demarcate and delineate land, to map and measure territory, to create and sustain archives, and to know and register its populations, have been extensively researched. Ground-breaking work by various scholars, especially John Torpey (Torpey 1999; Caplan and Torpy 2001), Valentine Groebner (2001), Jon Agar (2001) and others, have opened exciting avenues towards in-depth investigation of linkages between information, documentation and governance. Their work has been crucial to our contemporary understanding of the historical role that identity documents, such as passports and ration cards have played in the organization of a nation-state as a unitary body. Historians of science and technology, particularly Simon Cole (2002) and Chandak Sengoopta (2004), have focused on unearthing the sociopolitical milieu that produced the technology of fingerprinting. The notion of individual identity, especially 'suspect identity', was seen in a new light in philosophical, legal and bureaucratic discourses after the introduction of fingerprinting. The human body (re)entered the discourse of identification as an inalienable bridge connecting societal signifiers like name, age and gender to the selfhood of a person. The work of Gerd Gigerenzer and colleagues (1990), Ian Hacking (2001), Theodore Porter (1996), and others has been hugely instrumental in exploring the centrality of numbers in probabilistic statistical schemes that were increasingly adopted by many nation states during the twentieth century. Exploration of popular 'social engineering' ideas of determinism, deviation, and mean, for instance, has rekindled debates around the role of numbers in governmental thought and policy. Reflections by Gary Marx (1989), David Lyon (1994, 2002, 2003), Erving Goffman (1999), and Manuel Castells (2000, 2003), among others, have sustained a debate over the ideas of individual identity and of identification regimes. In its wake, ongoing sociological scholarship has produced an invaluable amount of literature. Close reading of several texts and contexts has thrown up new frames of reference for understanding the human condition. Through my research, I have attempted to uncover the dominant fabula or story of individual identification, together with rather fragmented and discrete sjuzhets or smaller plots of surveillance assemblage, or what is called 'new surveillance'. This is where data-bodies, DNA profiling, fingerprints and iris scans act as portals to a nuanced scrutiny of technology and body. This has resulted in what David Lyon considers a 'shift', wherein the body has been reintroduced as 'a source as well as site of surveillance' (Lyon 2001: 291). The body can be used as a document. Gearing up for the multipurpose national identity card In this regard, it has become important to observe elusive changes happening in the Indian context. They are elusive precisely because of the conspicuous silence of the Indian Government on the topic of the MNIC, as contrasted with the enthusiasm of corporate media in announcing the arrival of a number of smart card manufacturing firms setting up production units in India. This dichotomy sets up a critical duality marked by official silence and unofficial excitement. India's new ID card 113 In April 2003, the Government of India decided to initiate a 'pilot project' for the introduction of the Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) in select districts. This decision was based on the recommendation of a Group of Ministers (GoM) report on National Security. Some background on the GoM is useful here. The GoM was formed in April 2000 on the recommendation of the Kargil Review Committee (KRC), which had been struck in July 1999 to investigate the causes of the Kargil War. From May to July 1999, India and Pakistan engaged in a bloody conflict over the mostly barren but strategically important mountain peaks of the Kargil district. Kargil district lies on the Line of Actual Control facing the Pakistan border, which comprises the Pakistan Controlled Kashmir region of Baltistan. It is significant to note that the Kargil War was effectively what David Lyon (2003) calls – in relation to 9/11 in the USA – the 'big event' in that, far from being just a long-term process of bureaucratic accretion, stimulated certain specific measures to create a complete database of all 'Indian citizens'. The suggestions of the KRC mostly dealt with Indian defense and internal security policies. One such proposal was that 'steps be taken to issue ID Cards to border villagers in certain vulnerable areas on a priority basis, pending its extension to other or all parts of the State.' The KRC further urged that a policy like this 'would also be relevant in the North-East, Sikkim and part of West Bengal.' (For a detailed timeline regarding the origins of MNIC, see Appendix below). Timelines and structure of the MNIC initiative By April 2007, the 'pilot project' for MNIC was complete. According to an official press release, the 'pilot project' was needed 'to understand and develop the processes for collection and management [of a] database of citizens'. The management of a citizen database will be done through 20 specially constructed centres, one at each Tehsil/Block (sub-district) headquarters. These centres are digitally equipped and connected to a national online database. The back-end management of these centres is done by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). The personalization of cards has been entrusted to the Consortium of Central Public Sector Undertakings (CCPSU) comprising BEL, Electronics Corporations of India Limited (ECIL) and Indian Telephone Industries (ITI). The design of the card has been prepared with the help of National Institute of Design (NID) at Ahmedabad. On 26 May 2007, the Registrar General of India, D.K. Sikri, who is also the Registrar General of Citizens Registration, handed over the first MNIC to Mishro, a resident of the Pooth Khurd Village of the Narela District, of the National Capital Region of Delhi. This document, like many national identity card schemes elsewhere, has the following characteristics: fingerprint biometrics, photograph, digital memory, and standard identity signifiers like name, age, address, etc. The data were collected by asking 16 questions, each linked to a separate category. I will discuss the critical role played by the methodology of collecting data and its relationship to the larger idea of citizenship towards the end of this chapter. First, however, I will concentrate on the technology of smart cards generally, as well as how this technology has been rolled out in the MNIC. The MNIC as a smart card The MNIC is a 'smart card'. A smart card is a card with an embedded microchip that can be loaded with data. The card is equipped with a Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chip, a data tag for storage and retrieval purposes. RFID is a system of Data Carriers and Base Stations. A Data Carrier can be any label, tag, or transponder consisting of an RFID Die, an antenna, and packaging. The Carrier can then be formatted into any plastic ticket. The Base Station acts as a reader that contains an antenna, a radio frequency receiver or transceiver, and a microcontroller or computer. The Base Station can be set up as a desktop, wall mount, or portal. RFID usually means a passive RFID. The transponder is powered by a radio frequency signal rather than a battery. The reader transmits the radio frequency power to the transponder. The transponder can do nothing unless it is near the reader. Depending upon the frequency band, the reader can communicate with the transponder within a range of 20–1,000 cm. The card's memory is a SCOSTA – Smart Card Operating Software for Transport Application – based chip with storage capacity of 16 Kb. With an active RFID, the transponder is powered by battery or fuel cell. The reader and transponders are basically radios that can detect each other within a distance of a kilometer. The MNIC will be fitted with a passive RFID. In this regard, the card is a breakaway from earlier kinds of 'identity documents'. For instance, ration cards issued in India under the Public Distribution System (the Antyodaya card for the poorest, 'Above Poverty Line, APL' and 'Below Poverty Line, BPL' cards for others) are tactile in that the markers of an individual's identity (such as name, age, or gender) were handwritten, thus susceptible to tampering by the user. This gave way to Indian Photo Voter Identity Cards: laminated cards on which a photograph and identity markers (name, age, etc.) were machine printed. Although this was an advanced form of technological use compared with the good old ration cards, users could still fudge the documents with false entries. The transformation from manual and mechanical inscriptions of identity signifiers to digital processes shifts the idea of a document to a plane that lies at the border between heterogeneity and homogeneity. For all the data at its root would be composed of Boolean binaries – homogeneous in a way, yet distinct from each other by the operation of a number – and individual personhood would be signified as an objective mark – a mark that could be stored, transmitted, linked, accessed, manipulated, shared and retrieved by what is regarded by their developers as the precise science of a software program. Theodore M. Porter, in his influential work Trust in Numbers, wrote, 'when "philosophers" speak of objectivity of science, they generally mean its ability to know things as they really are' (Porter 1996: 3). Likewise, an 'objective' individual identity of a person – a person as he or she really is – may be a function of 'a body, a memory, and rights and responsibility' (Lyon 2001: 294), together with locatability, social categorization, symbols of eligibility/non-eligibility, etc. (Marx 2001: 312). In this respect, the number becomes useful, as it deconstructs individuals made up of many identities into a totally transparent being. The concern of the State India's new ID card first to know its citizens before governing them results in a desire for complete enumeration (see, e.g. Scott 1998). The rise of suspicion: Apopular culture and media backdrop to the MNIC project Before returning to the topic of the MNIC specifically, I would like to explore some elements of popular culture, literature and recent events that may illuminate how the Indian population may perceive the MNIC. To that end, at this juncture, is useful to consider the dialogue from Fanaa, a Hindi movie (2006), quoted at the beginning of the chapter. The lines are excerpted from a scene where Agent Tyagi, a surveillance expert, is called in to assist an Anti-'terrorist' Unit to track down an alleged 'terrorist'. She explains to a colleague from the Ministry of Defence methods of discovering more about the alleged 'terrorist', whom they refer to as the 'mastermind'. Throughout the sequence, the characters voice anxieties about not knowing the 'mastermind's' name, location or history. Agent Tyagi repeatedly states that 'no one knows' who he is. Of course, by 'no one' Agent Tyagi means the State. Unable to deal with the anonymity of the alleged 'terrorist', Agent Tyagi conflates it with a generic assumption. She says, 'He could be anyone or no one'. The film's narrative, especially after this particular sequence, revolves around determining the identity and personhood of the 'mastermind'. As Tyagi says, 'He has to be found'. The pertinent question here is: how can this particular person, who could be 'anyone' or 'no one', be found? In the epic poem Ramayana, the trope on which the scene from Fanaa seems to draw, there is an instance when Prince Rama's brother Laxmana is fatally wounded by Indrajeet, the son of rival King Ravanna. Laxmana could only be saved by one herb. Hanuman, the monkey god, is sent to fetch Sanjvani, the life-saving herb from the faraway Dronagiri mountain range. Now, Hanuman had no knowledge of herbs and unable to select the right herb, he uses his divine strength to lift the entire Dronagiri mountain range and bring it to the battlefield in Lanka at the southern tip of the Indian subcontinent. Agent Tyagi's dilemma is similar to Hanuman's. A 'terrorist' who is imagined as a 'deviant personality' type as opposed to a 'normal or average' law-abiding citizen 'has to be found'. Categories, such as 'deviant' or 'normal' seem well-defined so long as they are articulated within a general administrative or policing context. But these categories call for a closer scrutiny, because central to the ideas of 'deviancy' and 'normalcy' lie a State's anxiety to render its population into a visible spectrum, where each hue suggests a particular category. Each category is then subjected to a slightly different legal framework. For instance in the Indian context, the idea of 'Scheduled Castes', 'Minorities', 'Scheduled Tribes', etc. is a very sensitive concern for millions, yet in the public domain, there is little reflection on the foundational logic of these categories. It is still not clear as to who can lay claim to be a 'Scheduled Tribe'. Even after 60 years of independence many 'Tribes' are still negotiating with the Government, often violently, to have their 'Tribe' to be included in the 'Schedule Tribe' Category. In this regard, the use of the word 'normal' as an imagined category becomes significant. It refers to the idea of 'norm' as advocated in a sociological context by Emile Durkheim. In Empire of Chance, Ian Hacking, reflecting on Durkheim, writes, 'A moral fact is normal for a determined social type when it is observed in the average of the species, it is pathological in antithetical' (Hacking 1990: 172) which in turn is marked by what is wrong. In light of such explorations of what is 'normal', it should come as no surprise that media coverage of stories of 'national importance' in India are marked by narratives of 'disruption of normal life' and followed by the rhetoric of 'restoration of normalcy'. This is accompanied by the usual sorting out of 'anomalies'. In this regard, Foucault's burgeoning list of excavations concerning the mad, the recidivist, the insane and the sick could have some notable additions in the form of the 'terrorist' and the suspicious-looking person. For instance, the Delhi Police, which underpins its public presence through the endearing punch-line For You With You Always, launched a media campaign in the wake of an alleged 'terrorist' attack on the Red Fort in December 2000. The campaign 'Let's Fight Terror Together' ran simultaneously with a massive tenant verification drive to register all tenants residing in the city. The seeming logic was that since the alleged 'terrorists' were outsiders to Delhi and had lived in the city for months prior to the attack, it was possible that some of them could still be present. The complementary media campaign ran as an advisory exhorting the citizen to be on alert and be on the lookout for potential 'terrorists'. In a country such as India, where information superhighways co-exist with potholed lanes of misinformation and uncertainty, any advisory of the sort mentioned above tends to result in a situation where the human ear starts competing with the eye to arrest any seditious developments. Much as novelist Ismail Kadare writes in The File on H, '… the ear never rests, for people always want to talk and to whisper, what is said and especially what is muttered is always … much more dangerous to the State than what can be seen' (Kadare 2006: 26–27). One year later, in December 2001, in a classic case of tinnitus (a medical term connoting a buzzing sound that blocks all other sounds that is sometimes heard in one or both the ears), the Delhi police arrested a professor of Arabic in Delhi University on charges of waging war against the State. It was claimed that he had a hand in the conspiracy to attack the Indian Parliament on 13 December 2001. On this eventful day, five alleged 'militants' drove into the Parliament compound and started firing indiscriminately. What exactly happened is still not entirely clear, but the Parliament CCTV cameras and TV cameras show an exchange of fire between the police forces/security personnel and these men. All alleged 'militants' were killed in the shootout, and six arrests were made later. It was alleged that these 'militants' attacked the Indian Parliament because of their dissatisfaction with the State for not granting 'freedom' to the state of Kashmir. The professor was sentenced by a High Court to death, but was later acquitted and absolved of all his charges by the Supreme Court of India in 2003. The sole 'evidence' for his arrest (which was later proved faulty) was transcripts of a 136-second telephone conversation between him and his 18-year-old half-brother India's new ID card in Kashmir. The 13 December attack was termed by the Government and media as 'an attack on the heart of Indian democracy'. So far, out of the six main accused, two have been acquitted for 'lack of evidence' and one is on death row, but there is a sustained campaign for a 'fair trial'. What we have are five dead bodies, and an 'event' that continues to raise questions among those who follow the news. It is not my purpose to discuss the events of attack on the Indian Parliament per se. However, it followed close on the heels of the 11 September 2001 events in the USA, a 'big event' that led to a global overhaul as far as the passing of new 'antiterror' legislation, such as the Patriot Act. In India, the 13 December event facilitated the passing of draconian anti-terror laws, such as the POTA (Prevention of Terrorism Act 2002). Coming back to the 'Let's Fight Terror Together' campaign, a 'terrorist' could be any person acting 'suspiciously'. Specifically, this could be anyone wearing clothes unsuited for the season, or trying too conspicuously to blend in with surroundings by his dress and behaviour, or who is too fat or too thin. In other words, to use Agent Tyagi's proclamation, he could be 'anyone or no one'. This rhetoric tends to produce a situation where, on one level, the idea of normality becomes a performance of that which is imagined as 'normal' and on another, creates a perceptional filter of what Gary Marx calls, 'categorical suspicion'. Perceptional filters have a long history of helping governments to 'see' things. But with regard to the specific idea of 'normality', this filter works both ways. That is, whenever members of a nation-state try to 'see' its population through lenses that are made to 'register' only 'normal' and/or 'abnormal/deviant' populations, more often than not, people respond by becoming more 'normal'. Hence the idea of 'normality' is constantly contested in this tug of war. As Hacking asserts, '… few of us fancy being pathological so "most of us" try to make ourselves normal, which in turn affects what is normal' (Hacking 1990: 2). What are 'normal clothes'? What does one mean when one is talking about 'blending in' with surroundings? What kind of contingent idea of 'normality' does this give rise to? Can one differentiate 'normal' from 'suspicious' behaviour? The MNIC as proof of 'normality' The case of a national identity card stretches the idea of 'suspicion' further. Affirming one's trust in the state is a two-fold process. First, one must be aware of one's personhood, or be in possession of a document that can vouch for one's claim. Second, one 'should' have a document that contains a fingerprint, or what Agamben calls 'the most private and incommunicable aspect of subjectivity … the body's biological life', to be not only enumerated but recalled and verified in an instant. Further, through the MNIC, a 15-digit National Identity Number (NIN) will be allotted to each citizen. The state will only recognize a person as him or herself if the memory of personhood as contained in his token matches exactly to a trace of his identity as indexed by the State archives. The link between the name, the person, and his memory is constituted by a number. The NIN would become mandatory for a range of transactions. Here the 'multiple-purpose' of the national ID card would emerge. From a railway journey to bus travel, from gaining admission to a school to registering property, or from obtaining a driver's license to opening a bank account – for each of these transactions the card-carrying citizen would have to fill in a form and quote his or her NIN. According to an official estimate, the Government of India currently has more than 100,000 different forms pertaining to various departments. Because of increasing pressure by different private lobby groups, the Government has given the nod to mid- and large-sized software companies to actively participate in and share the burden of processing this 'national' information. Incorporating these parameters and functions, the MNIC may precariously waver towards, as some scholars argue, the 'demeaning' of the identity of an individual. The argument is that personal identity stands to be 'demeaned' as it becomes an 'ersatz-identity', bereft of subjectivity and composed of numbers. As Richard Sobel (2002) explains in his exhaustive essay 'The Demeaning of Identity and Personhood in National Identification Systems', 'NIDS demeans political and personal identity by transforming personhood from an intrinsic quality inhering in individuals into a quantity designated by numbers, represented by physical cards, and recorded in computer databanks'. However, any identity document gives a lot of 'meaning' when an individual's identity is documented. The urge to acquire identity cards underlines some fundamental assumptions, one being the legitimate claim to State benefits, irrespective of whether one is qualified or not. Beyond these 'benefits', to be unrecognized by the State, to be stateless is, not something that many would desire. Long queues outside Government offices for ration cards, voter ID cards, etc. show a need to be 'acknowledged'. The coming together of public and private on the MNIC project entailing the sharing of information marks another first. It is the first time the Indian State will allow its memory to be accessed by non-state players. 'G to B' (Government to Business) has emerged as the newest mantra in the rhetoric of e-governance. The State, of course, stands to reap significant benefits if this works out. Instead of a multitudinous array of identity documents bearing different identification numbers, ranging form the Voter ID card to the Permanent Account Number (PAN) Card, driver's licences, and credit cards, it will have to manage only one document with just one identity number. The MNIC in practice In the absence of any contemporary or historical evidence of a workable implementation of a national identity card scheme, it is still unclear how successful this initiative will be in the long run. However, we do have strong evidence of a historical tendency by governments to rely on numbers. There seems to be an umbilical relationship between statecraft and the magic of numbers. At this stage, the idea of numbers can perhaps provide us with a suitable point of departure from thinking about numbers from the perspective of government and a governing mentality, of census and unique identity and of traceability and inventorying. To complicate the India's new ID card argument further, it would be worthwhile to think of events and conditions when numbers, in all their idiosyncrasy and abstraction, cannot perform their basic function. That is, when they cease to be unique. Portuguese novelist Jose Saramgo's All the Names is a case in point. It is a riveting account of the Central Registry of Births, Marriages and Deaths. The novel deals with the disappointments, delusions and frustrations of a clerk, Señor Jose, who lives in a single room attached to the Registry. The story is set in a city which, to borrow Fanaa rhetoric, could be any or none, goes like this: Señor Jose works in the Registry during the day and 'by night, he ferrets for facts about the famous, compiling his own archive of births, deaths and marriages. One day he chances upon an index card of an ordinary woman whose details hold as much fascination for him as any celebrity's … Jose starts to track the woman down'. After much trial and tribulation he reaches the conclusion that the woman had committed suicide. But his conclusion turns inconclusive after he pays a visit to the cemetery. Señor Jose re-tells his experience: 'I walked through the general cemetery to the section for suicides, I went to sleep under an olive tree, and the following morning when I woke up, I was in a middle of a flock of sheep, and then I found that the Shepherd amuses himself by swapping around the numbers on the graves before the tombstones are put in place' (Saramago 1999: 243). The historical desire of a nation state to identify an individual from cradle to grave through the agency of an identity document has taken a new turn. With the emergence of the digitally enabled national identity card we are moving towards the paradoxical specter of opaque transparency: as the citizen becomes more and more transparent in the eyes of the State, the State recedes behind a plethora of alphanumeric archives and databases. For instance, a Public Distribution System or PDS shop would have electronic kiosks instead of personnel from the Food and Civil Supplies Ministry who until now have been sourced locally. The operation and maintenance of the PDS shops would be subcontracted to various private vendors, while only those citizens who are eligible to for the category of BPL (below poverty line) would have access to subsidized food. Their claim would of course, have to be validated through the smart card. The fabricated image of a person, together with other alphanumeric signifiers, contained in a digitally re-writable, retrievable memory embossed with a national emblem and laminated between transparent sheets, brings to mind the metaphor of a key. Like any key, the MNIC would enable its user to open locks and access various schemes and services. The MNIC will be just like this key, albeit a doublesided one, for it will allow both the State and the citizen to enter into each other's realms. However, there is a caveat in this meta-narrative, and I am reminded of poet–philosopher Gaston Bachelard's assertion that 'the lock doesn't exist that could resist absolute violence, and all locks are an invitation to thieves' (Bachelard 1994: 81). How will this play itself out in the case of the MNIC? Will the MNIC be able to function as a 'key' as it is made out to be? A notch gives an outline to a key. It lies on the periphery of a key and forms a firm boundary to a key. The NIN would similarly act as a crafted notch or groove to this key called MNIC. Its unique sequence of numbers will distinguish between the standardized memories of personhood, which acquire legal currency by being valid, and other memories which are too personal, too complex, and too multilayered to be grouped into any category of time and space or sorted into any form of document, but nevertheless form the basis of who we are. The NIN, according to the proponents of the MNIC, will act as a virtual border between the State machinery and the citizens. Along this border, assuming the system works as planned, any act of transgression would be immediately noticed, no stealth or subterfuge could be practiced, and all acts of masquerade would reveal a hidden identity. This stands in stark contrast to the real frontier, characterized by razor wire fencing and checkposts, where the idea of territory is contested by security forces on a day-to-day basis, and where people may have lived and moved across an ever-changing line for years, where the terrain is marked by negotiated crossings, dealings with middlemen, farewells and promises of return. At the borders of identity The physical frontier becomes the space where the State confronts its biggest dilemma. How to sort individuals out? How to decide who is who? How to ascertain the truthful claim about an identity? How to gauge if the lungi clad person is from this side or that? Perhaps the answer is being looked for in the MNIC card. In the case of Indian borders, like most others, the problem is compounded as the line between an alien and a citizen is very fuzzy. Border posts are places where identity documents assume hyper-significance, where a heightened state of alertness is the 'norm'. These are locations where 'anyone' can be asked to prove his or her identity, and where a lack of an identity document quickly transforms the presumption of innocence into a presumption of guilt. India shares a 2,912 km border with Pakistan, a 4,053 km border with Bangladesh, 1,690 km border with Nepal, and a 3,380 km border with China. There have been border disputes with Pakistan, China, and Bangladesh. There have been three wars with Pakistan, and one with China. Borders lie on the edges of a nation-state. What kind of an imagination of lived experience would result if one were to think of a nation without a centre – where the distinction between the centre and the periphery collapses, where the centre becomes the border, where presumption of guilt is 'normalized' and where the 'citizen' needs to be distinguished from the 'alien' through a smart identification card? 'Border Management' is a chapter of a highly influential report on national security entitled 'Reforming the National Security System-Recommendations of the Group of Ministers'. It reads, 'In fact, barring Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Delhi and Haryana, all other States in the country have one or more international borders or a coastline and can be regarded as frontline States from the point of view of border management'. Quantitatively speaking, according to this report, out of a total of 28 states and seven Union Territories in India, all but five states, for all administrative and political purposes, are to be regarded as a 'Border'. This may well transform to a situation where citizens may be seen as potential India's new ID card immigrants (read 'aliens') by the state. With an internal collapse of the periphery, the idea of the hinterland merges with notion of the border. In its wake, the selfsustaining myth of inside and outside is engulfed. Particular ethnic, religious and political identities are overtaken by an affective national identity underlined by a document. Furthermore, the report puts the blame on illegal immigration. 'Illegal migration has assumed serious proportions. There should be compulsory registration of citizens and non-citizens living in India. This will facilitate preparation of a national register of citizens. All citizens should be given a Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MPNIC) and non-citizens should be issued identity cards of a different color and design'. For the illegal immigrant to be marked and verified, the citizen has to be stabilized, and for the citizen to be marked and verified, the illegal immigrant has to be stabilized. For all purposes and unless stipulated otherwise, the not-soapparent dichotomy between the legal citizen and the illegal immigrant is sorted out, and the state would find itself sinking deep in self-demarcated tautological quick-sands. The national identity card appears as a desperate attempt to bolster what Arjun Apadurai argues is 'a fundamental and dangerous idea behind the very idea of the modern nation state, the idea of a 'national ethnos' (Appadurai 2006: 3). While in the act of taking off the ballast involving a whole set of other identities, the state seems to be prescribing a unitary identity, to keep its wobbly boat afloat. The rhetoric of one nation, one land, one border, one citizen seems to assert itself through a dreamlike gaze of the state underwritten by – highly technologized – ideas of modernity. Given the internal haemorrhage that the MNIC may potentially have initiated between the fringe and the core, albeit at a very minute scale, it is interesting to note how subtle changes in the syntactic structure of this minutely calibrated grandiloquence has helped push the dreams of mobility beyond national boundaries. This was evident in the misreading of the Hindi language title of the MNIC by the people of Pooth Khurd, the village north-west of Delhi. Pooth Khurd was earmarked for the pilot project of the MNIC scheme. The erstwhile farmlands of this village have been transformed into urban clusters following the rapid expansion of Delhi and the absorption of the frontline rural/semi-urban areas into the metropolis. Malls, multiplexes and high-rise apartment blocks have appeared. Compensation money for the displaced farmers was supposedly 'adequate' but when I visited this village in 2006, the dominant narrative was one of lack of livelihood. Former agriculturalists were finding it difficult to move into newer occupations and work cultures. I conducted a series of interviews with a group of men from this village. One of them complained: 'We don't have work, but this does not mean we are poor'. This was evident in the range of new cars parked along the yet-to-beconstructed pucca roads of the village. When I asked them about the MNIC, their faces lit up. They all remembered the day when the Sub-Divisional Magistrate (SDM) came to their village and told them about a 'Hara Card' or a 'Green Card'. Many people told me how they would take foreign tours; some also said that their dream of settling abroad would finally come true in the near future. This narrative, though somewhat odd, was a recurrent theme in all my subsequent visits to Pooth Khurd. Still, the connection between the MNIC and going abroad was unclear. Many visits later, while I was listening to an illiterate farmer talking about places he would visit in England, I chanced upon the possible link. I was admiring the jute presented to him by the SDM, on account of his role as responsible community elder. The farmer had mobilized over 50 people to share their biometric and other personal information with the officials of the State. The letters 'MNIC' were inscribed on either side of the jute bag in English and Hindi. MNIC, in Hindi, reads as Bahu-uddeshye Rashtriya Pechan Patra or Multipurpose National Identity Card. But what the people of Pooth Khurd read was Bahu deshye Rashtriya Pechan Patra or Multi 'Nation' National Identity Card. Phonetically, there is little difference between Bahu Deshye and Bahu Uddeshye. But semantically, it inverts the very idea of a national identity card with its notions of fixed citizenship and singular national identities. Much has happened since that particular visit to Pooth Khurd. A whole range of smart cards have surfaced, from biometric passports to smart health cards and smart cards for access to subsidized food grains under the Public Distribution System. There is talk of an Integrated Smart Card, which will collapse these other cards into the MNIC. And according to a Planning Commission Report of January 2007, recommendations are being put forth to include children within the smart card project. Creating membership: Taking everyone into account 'How to take children into account?' This is the predicament the Government of India seems to be grappling with. A report entitled 'Entitlement Reform for Empowering the Poor: The Integrated Smart Card' deals with problems pertaining to the distribution of benefits under various governmental schemes. This peculiar quandary has arisen as the MNIC would only be given to persons who are 15 years of age and above, thus depriving a lot of children of benefits. The report recommends, 'the biometric information of all family members needs to be in-built into the smart card'. On the question of citizenship status, the report suggests, 'The creation of a data base of residents and assignment of a unique ID to each resident is much easier than the creation of a data base of citizens, because of the difficulty of authentication of citizenship and the legal implications that it may have'. The idea of the MNIC began as an attempt to mark all citizens permanently and accord them with formal national membership – a membership which would surpass other memberships denoted by filial relations, region, religion, language, gender, caste, community, locality, etc. and result in a creation of a unitary club. Significantly, the project failed to take into account the complex praxis that exists between the idea of an individual identity as imagined by the State and an identity as lived by people. To complicate matters further, the Planning Commission Report (January 2007) makes it abundantly clear that the Government is tinkering with the idea of collapsing individual identities into group identities. This move would create new membership pools within a larger sea of already existing sets of memberships. In a country with a documented history of mass internal migration, a national register of residency would facilitate the creation of hitherto unimagined membership pools – unimagined because these pools will tend to push valid citizens without a formal residency status towards the brink of illegality, while genuinely 'illegal' immigrants would try to mask their existence by acquiring all available tokens of legitimate identification. Blurred borders among 'citizens' The creation of newer sets of membership would create fresh categories for identification. Together with existent categories, the emergent categories will tend towards an amorphous idea of national group membership where at least some of the members will be neither totally included in nor excluded from the group. In the absence of distinct forms of identification, the ongoing experimentation is producing a somewhat 'Fuzzy Logic' of national identity. According to Lotfi Zadeh, mathematician and co-author of Fuzzy Logic, Fuzzy Truth is something which represents membership in vaguely defined 'sets' and not a result of an event or condition. Fuzzy Logic allows for 'set membership' to range from – 'Slightly' to 'Quite' to 'Very'. In a frontier-like situation, a national identity card would create a 'universal set' of Indians, but as the Planning Commission Report (January 2007) suggests, this 'set' may have many of 'subsets'. For instance, the state of Kerala has its smart cards for Commercial Sex Workers, the Indian army is considering a proposal to issue health smart cards for HIV-positive soldiers, and car drivers have smart drivers' licences. Subsets around occupations, health conditions, and mode of transport are just a few of the many that may arise. The Fuzzy Logic of the MNIC will make 'Indian-ness' an attribute dependent not just on the document, but also on one's projected image of being a 'normal' Indian. The contestations for claims to national membership through the MNIC card will arise in the domain of truth claims. They will be marked by attempts to look like or furnish proof of evidence of 'Indian-ness', which would make one 'Slightly Indian' or 'Quite Indian' or 'Very Indian'. Depending on the success of an individual's claims, a person would get a Multi-purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) or a Multi-purpose Residency Card (MRR). In the not-much-talked-about case of 400 Iranian immigrants to the small town of Murshidabad, in the state of West Bengal, the logic of Fuzzy Logic becomes apparent. These people settled in Murshidabad 80 years ago – well before the independent Indian nation-state was formed. The MNIC survey party failed to accord a single one of them Indian citizenship status. So what are they: Persian-speaking Indians or Bengali-speaking Iranians? Are they 'Slightly', 'Quite' or 'Very' Indian? The 16 categorical questions in the Government Performa for MNIC, mentioned earlier in the essay, must be answered not through a straight tick or a cross but by giving information supported by evidence. This evidence is then turned over to a verification team headed by a supervisor. The verification team will ascertain the citizenship status of each individual. If evidence is unavailable, the decision of the verification team and the sub-divisional magistrate would be crucial in granting citizenship to a hitherto undocumented individual. Thus, by its very nature the MNIC questionnaire generates slippages within categories. For an individual to arrest these slippages and be verified correctly he must either produce evidence or show by some other means that he is 'Very Indian'. Hence, cases like those of the Iranian migrant community discussed above, with their 'slightly Indian' features, clearly escape the bureaucratic exercise of rendering an individual into a citizen. In order to belong to a nation, an individual must conform to categories anchored by questionnaires, certificates, oaths, and affirmations. Non-conformance results in new categories, which in turn produce narratives of illegality and suspicion. Likely consequences In the scenario discussed above, 'under-represented' sections of the Indian society, like the 'undocumented', the 'poor' or the 'minorities' could be subjected to discrimination. Although at this stage this proposition might be regarded as a conjecture, it underlines the importance of a priori evidence made necessary to be granted a MNIC card. Unfortunately, millions of un-credentialed Indians do not have an evidence of their existence. MNIC card project proposes to create a centralize database linked to individual card holders, which would then be connected to social benefit schemes. Hence a non-possession of the card on account of lack of evidence needed for its procurement might result in denial of services to the very people it was meant to be in the first place. Another important aspect of the MNIC debate is a moral one. It is still not clear as to how the data garnered by the MNIC will be used. Who will access this database? A report by Human Rights Features cautions the idea of storing personal information of an entire country in 'one database'. The report suggests that MNIC card may infringe on the privacy of individuals as there is a 'possibility of corruption and exploitation of data'. The proposed data gathered through the MNIC project would concretize existing categories. However, the right or the privilege to belong to these categories is still being disputed by people. 'Categorical suspicion' by the State is deeply contested by 'categorical affirmation' by a large chunk of society, which regard legible identity documents as the only vehicle for legible citizenship. Far from a scenario of total surveillance by a 'Big Brother', the Indian experiment with identity documents is a case of the fuzzy logic of membership. Bibliography Agar, J. (2001) 'Modern horrors: British identity and identity cards', in J. Caplan and J. Torpey (eds). Documenting Individual Identity, Princeton: Princeton University Press. Appadurai, A. (2006) Fear of Small Numbers: An Essay on the Geography of Anger, Durham: Duke University Press. India's new ID card 125 Ch7.qxp 4/12/2008 2:48 PM Page 125 Bachelard, G. (1994) The Poetics of Space, reprint ed. Uckfield: Beacon Press. Caplan, J. and Torpey, J. (2001) Documenting individual Identity, Princeton: Princeton University Press. Castells, M. (2000) The Rise of Network Society, 2nd ed. Oxford: Wiley-Blackwell. Castells, M. (2003) The Power of Identity, 2nd ed. Malden: Blackwell Publishing. Cole, S.A (2002) Suspect Identities: A History of Fingerprinting and Criminal Identification, Harvard: Harvard University Press. Fanaa (2006) A Hindi movie. Gigerenzer, G., Swijtink, Z., Porter, T. and Daston, L. (1990) The Empire of Chance: How Probability Changed Science and Everyday Life, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Goffman, E. (1999) The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life, Gloucester, MA: Peter Smith. Groebner, V. (2001) 'Describing the Person, reading the signs in late medieval and renaissance Europe: identity papers, vested figures, and limits of identification, 1400–1600', in J. Caplan and J. Torpey J. (eds) Documenting Individual Identity, Princeton: Princeton University Press. Hacking, I. (1990) The Taming of Chance (Ideas in Context), Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Hacking, I. (2001) An Introduction to Probability and Inductive Logic. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Kadare, I. (2002) The File on H, reprint ed. New York: Arcade Publishing. Kadare, I. (2006) The File on H., reprint ed. New York: Arcade Publishing. Lyon, D. (1994) The Electronic Eye: The Rise of Surveillance Society, Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press. Lyon, D. (2001) 'Under my skin: from identification papers to body surveillance', in J. Caplan and J. Torpey (eds) Documenting Individual Identity. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Lyon, D. (2002) Surveillance as Social Sorting: Privacy, Risk and Automated Discrimination, London: Routledge. Lyon, D. (2003) Surveillance after September 11, Cambridge: Polity Press. Marx, G. (1989) Protecting Privacy in Surveillance Societies, Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. Marx, G. (2001) 'Identifying anonymity: some conceptual distinctions and issues for research', in J. Caplan and J. Torpey (eds) Documenting Individual Identity. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Porter, T.M. (1996) Trust in Numbers, reprint ed. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Prevention of Terrorism Act (2002) 'Interception of communication in certain cases', Chapter V, Government of India Act No. 15. Scott, J. (1998) Seeing Like a State, New Haven: Yale University Press. Saramago, J. (1999) All the Names, London: Harvill Panther. Sengoopta, C. (2004) Imprint of the Raj: How Fingerprinting was Born in Colonial India, London: Pan Books. Sobel, R. (2002) 'The demeaning of identity and personhood in national identification systems, Spring', Harvard Journal of Law & Technology 15: 2. Torpey, J. (1999) The Invention of the Passport: Surveillance, Citizenship and the State, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 126 Mehmood Appendix Timeline of MNIC a 26 May 1999: Kargil War with Pakistan begins b 26 July 1999: Kargil War ends c 29 July 1999: Government of India appoints the Kargil Review Committee (KRC) through Order No. 361/6/4/99-TS d 7 January 2000: The KRC submits a 228-page report to the Prime Minister. One of the key recommendations of the report is to take steps 'to issue ID Cards to border villagers in certain vulnerable areas on a priority basis, pending its extension to other or all parts of the State'. e 17 April 2000: On the advice of the KRC, the Indian Government forms the Group of Ministers (GoM) through an order No.141/2/1/2000-TS. f 22 December 2000: Red Fort in Delhi attacked by alleged 'terrorists'. g January 2001: Delhi police launches 'Tenant Verification' drive – the first ever compilation of data on 'Tenants' in Delhi. h 26 February 2001: The GoM submits its report to the Prime Minister. A paragraph in Chapter V of the report, entitled 'Border Management', reads, 'There should be compulsory registration of citizens and non-citizens living in India. This will facilitate preparation of a national register of citizens. All citizens should be given a Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MPNIC) and noncitizens should be issued identity cards of a different color and design'. i 23 April 2003: Pilot Project on Multipurpose National Identity Card is initiated. j 26 May 2007: RGI DK Sikri hands over the first tranche of National ID cards to the villagers of Pooth Khurd. India's new ID card 127 From difusion at medialab-prado.es Fri Nov 7 17:14:13 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:44:13 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for Projects> Light, Space and Perception Work Group (Spain) Message-ID: <49142A0D.7050709@medialab-prado.es> *MEDIALAB-PRADO* Plaza de las Letras C/ Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid (Spain) +34 913 692 303 www.medialab-prado.es *Light, Space and Perception Work Group* Entries' Deadline: November 30, 2008 Open call for collaborators: November 15, 2008 Open call for the submission of proposals to be collaboratively developed during two three-day workshops* (January and March, 2009). This call is part of the activities of the Light, Space and Perception work group , led by artists Daniel Canogar, Julian Oliver and Pablo Valbuena, and supported by Mediala-Prado in Madrid (Spain). The goal is to work with local developers to create prototypes with the aid of these three instructors and the interested collaborators. Core themes: * Light and the city. Urbanism, media-façades, the fusion of physical and digital urban spaces. * Augmented Reality, the use of projections on three-dimensional surfaces and physical objects, the use of light as a material. * Set and stage design and the creation of atmospheres through the projection of light: perspective, optical illusions, etc. * Investigation of the qualities of our visual perception and its limits. * Development of new light technologies for artistic purposes. More information and online submission form: http://medialab-prado.es/article/luz_espacio_y_percepcion_convocatoria_de_proyectos Contact: difusion at medialab-prado.es * Medialab-Prado does not cover lodging and travel expenses for selected participants. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 16:41:59 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:41:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] doubt about what, javed.? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811080311v44b2bc6ev56735d59801f6bb7@mail.gmail.com> Dear Javed, There is no denying the fact that geelani was acquited by Hon Court. Also there is no denying that he was a acquited on technical grounds , though his involvement was supposed to be still suspucious. What is beyond doubt that even in the judgement when it was discussed , it was proved that Geelani laughed when asked over the phone about the terrorists acts in Delhi . Infact he was on record to have said that these acts were necessary to be done. Is it not a shame that the same person who laughs and enjoys the terrorist violence in India is being given honor and is expected to give a speech on communalism and fascism. And the likes of Arti and Shuddha continue to think that this Geelani is a champion ! Pawan Jai Andhra ! Jai Hind On 11/8/08, Javed wrote: > > Dear Rajendra Bhatt > This must be the most absurd logic I have ever heard about any > judicial matter. If this piece of evidence was to be kept > confidential, then how do you know about it? > And in any case, when has public been shown any piece of evidence > claimed by the police in so many cases. In the Jamia Nagar case, they > said they have found AK-47 - did they show it to public. They said > they've found a laptop in L-18 Batla House with photos of Osama - did > they show it to public? And in your example, why couldn't only the > judge and lawyers be shown the evidence and a decision be made based > on that? I just don't believe the logic you have presented. Can you > give a source for this? > > You said that even google does not show the detailed floor plan of the > parliament. Guess what, I just saw Indian parliament on the google in > as much detail as they show anything else on earth (this the maximum > they show of anything). You are welcome to see it at the following > link (please use the entire URL even if looks broken into 2-3 lines): > > > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Delhi&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.780156,86.572266&ie=UTF8&ll=28.617255,77.209189&spn=0.002698,0.005284&t=k&z=18 > > Also, if Geelani had access to the detailed floor plans of parliament > (which could be used to destroy the place), what a damp squib they > finally achieved - they could not even enter the parliament or harm > any MP? They were trying to the premises in a white ambassador? What a > stupid use of having detailed floor plans. > > Let me know if you have any other technical reasons for absolving Geelani. > > J > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM, rajendra bhat > wrote: > > Friend, > > if you have any doubts about the accused, be they muslims or hindus, > the laws clearly state that the accused are innocent till proved guilty.If > you have doubts about those in Jamianagar, you should doubt that Geelani, > who is a terror sponsor, but not the other detainees. Geelani escaped with > the help of a "criminal" lawyer paying hefty fee for the technical error of > presented evidence. many may not even know that evidence, let me explain, in > the mahazar signed by Geelani with two witnesses the plans of Parliament > which are not in public domain were found, with all miniscule details and > the prosecution had a tricky isue to present this evidence in the court of > law, as once presented in court of laws, geelani would be convicted as he > was in possession of plan and elevation of parliament which is considered as > confidential, not in public domain, but once in documents of the court as > evidence any one can access this piece of evidence and the > > parliament will be open to scrutiny by all including teorror planners.! > This is the "technical" aspect of evidence as CBI and prosecution decided > not to present this peice of evidence as to how he Geelani could obtain this > evidence is million dollar issue as even google does not give this detailed > floor plan of parliament.! > > > > Such a person who planned and conspired to execute the attack is now > "innocent" and specially invited to talk of communalism when he is muslim > communal, terror sponsor.! Ofcourse there are many "secular" who love to > love him for his handsome looks, and also are bordering on fascism to defend > him.? > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From appu.es at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 16:50:30 2008 From: appu.es at gmail.com (Appu Esthose Suresh) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:50:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <761372.12498.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6353c690811061844l605cfab4i3693a0c429e19460@mail.gmail.com> <761372.12498.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b1e36590811080320p3c147b56k52e0601872cb1f64@mail.gmail.com> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" ("interactive session" where venom was spewed on the Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified manner in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, was it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must write a strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case you don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't let you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports on vandalism in DU. Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what did court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked the court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the "nationalist organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for Terrorism will remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I got to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their involvement in Malegaon. Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a Kashmiri ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay if I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' a terrorist when is been acquitted? (*To be continued…………*) On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. > But Hindus.. > If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a > terrorist... > > Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack and > he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and greater > freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... > > Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' on > their forehead... > > Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call yourself > Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > To: sarai list > Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star > speaker > > *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker > > **Staff Reporter | New Delhi > > The Daily Pioneer > > Link - > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html > * > *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take on > ABVP 'goons'* > > Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday > facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the > Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — SAR > Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. > > Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts > Faculty > seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by > Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the > handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani > was > speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', > organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. > > "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national > security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and letting > others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government > deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu > extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me later > for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 > Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He > said > that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy in > India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," he > said. > > About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of DU, > participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" and > "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working journalists > and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, > Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the Students' > Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. > > Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists > opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, > "Inquilab > comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this > fascism." > > Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, was > not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a > teacher > from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a talk'. > University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that > Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet Singh > even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk in > view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, > however, went on. > > The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar room > and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An activist > even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, > shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and the > microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite > the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 17:17:02 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 03:47:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! Message-ID: <544834.59510.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! (Commenting on my status of OBAH MUAH!) HE: :) SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and bollywud magic that day on tv ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and kisses....wah!!! HE: and compare the two elections... one in Kashmir n one in US! SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look at the conduct of political parties in jk, the language and hate for each other....more to blame is also Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream India......in fact in south Asia, the polity is mired with corruption, vote bank and slur....we still have to grow as a democracy...remember we are only 60..as compared to US 200. As far as Kashmir is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly they blame the Indian govt of doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used and subverted democratic institutions for their own interest. U know the major draw back in our part of the world is that we do not have the courage for self correctness, self introspection.....USA did that....they have brought in change...I admire that... baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part with yours SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call for Jamia Chalo for killing of 5 lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people protested in Kashmir for Azadi and were forced indoors by shooting on the protests... Kashmir is in no mood for election right now... yet it has to be imposed... without any negotiation with the leadership opposed to it. All that the government can offer is to impose a conventional election to meet its deadline to show that all is well in Kashmir. It is not. I think the bigger problem is this not the morality of our local politicians. the conditions we live in can only produce the kind of politicians we presently have. USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for eight years before it was time for Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides how Kashmiris should behave and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership has to suite India’s self-image its foreign policy and morality. SHE: you forget that people who are standing for elections ( record number filled in nomination...to counter each other , their party workers shouting anti India slogans ) or people wanting to vote are also Kashmiris. Even Panun Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for different reasons. They are Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want to vote are Kashmiris too...so are the Sikhs and not to forget there are Ladhakis , Poocnhis, etc who want to vote...no one is shying away from resolving the issue...spell out the agenda and ideology and let people decide, why intimidate them, kill them...why instill so much hatred in them...and when I say they..I mean all those, religious groups, media, separatist so called nationalist.... who want to build their own constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or anywhere else...as I said we need to sit and talk....chatting on these issues is bit difficult... HE: I didn’t forget them... Ladakhis, Pandits, Jammu-ites, and all those who want to vote for various reasons... Yet daily killing to keep people to keep them from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against elections (peacefully I do not see pelting stones at heavily armed security forces from by lanes as serious violence especially when you are permanently held under section 144) cannot be justified because some people there or elsewhere want to vote. The context in which elections are happening is pure imposition... more of what has been happening all along. Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling out agendas is not possible and largely the establishment which wields power in Kashmir is responsible for maintaining such a situation there. There is too much intelligence interference... too much security structure to allow people to breathe... let alone have a Democratic process. Too much of humiliation on the daily basis to let a person feel human enough... Even those who were alienated from religion or primordial identities are being pushed to adopt these for bare survival. In wake of this the only articulation that is possible is hate or violence. You cannot sit on someone’s throat and ask him/her to talk peace. They might oblige until you get off... but then hate you with all the intensity they can muster soon after that. I think the situation is like this... We have beaten Kashmiris to the point of making them into brutes... and now we justify the continuity of violence by saying look they are actually brutes and deserve it! Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir since late nineties should have given a breather to India to bring about a serious dialogue. But what do they do? Decide that the temporary lull is the solution and squander the chance. We cannot maintain the facade of moral preachers after all that has happened in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame and let the people have their say. Even though what they decide might not be to our liking and in our opinion disastrous for them. Too often our personal interests get enmeshed with our moral visions and cloud our judgment such that we cannot see what is actually happening to people. At least I for one have stopped passing judgments on the people of Kashmir and demonizing them. I hope more of the civil society activists who engage with Kashmir will begin to do so. When you refer to intimidation and killing i am surprised that you miss out the biggest killing machine in motion right now... the CRPF! You see we percieve different realities because of where each of us is located. The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row. This seems to be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. I have my batchmates within the force and they give horrifying accounts of how the force percieves ordinary Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or humiliated for no reason but for what they are. From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 18:14:17 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:14:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kerala probing SIMI links with Parliament attack accused In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080207j3bd3c0f6nc62e14b4c5c520d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080207j3bd3c0f6nc62e14b4c5c520d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080444r4fc7596ch52724532917b4a92@mail.gmail.com> The presumption of innocence – being innocent until proven guilty – is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern nations. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the judge and jury, who are restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies). More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence The origins of a legal maxim: http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/Law508/InnocentGuilty.htm On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kerala probing SIMI links with Parliament attack accused > > 8 Nov 2008, 0312 hrs IST, Ananthakrishnan G, TNN > > THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Kerala's terror links seem to be getting murkier. The > state government on Friday told the Kerala high court that it was > probing whether some alleged SIMI activists, who had taken part in a > meeting held by the banned outfit at Panayikkulam in Ernakulam district, had > any links with those accused in the 2001 Parliament attack case, one of them > being Delhi University lecturer, SAR Geelani. > > The submission came on a plea by the state seeking cancellation of the bail > granted to two men who had attended the meeting on August 15, 2006. Shameer > and Abdul Hakeem had been arrested recently during the crackdown on terror > modules after revelations that four of those killed by security forces in > Jammu & Kashmir early last month were from Kerala. The duo, named as sixth > and seventh accused in the case, got bail after police failed to > substantiate charges against them. > > Requesting the HC to cancel their bail, government pleader M S Sukumaran > said during a search of their houses the police had recovered two CDs, > containing a portrait of DU lecturer Geelani, who was arrested and later > acquitted in the Parliament attack case. The CDs have been sent for forensic > tests to find out whether there is any link between them and any of the > accused in the Parliament attack case, he submitted. > > Sukumaran also contended that the first and third accused in the case were > in the custody of Jaipur police for being members of the banned outfit. > Among the 18 people who attended the Panayikkulam meet of SIMI were Ansar > Moulavi and Shaduli, held for allegedly plotting the May 13, 2008 Jaipur > blasts. > > Link - > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Kerala_probing_SIMI_links_with_Parliament_attack_accused/articleshow/3687589.cms > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 18:15:03 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 04:45:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A filthy lie by Gowhar Fazli. In-Reply-To: <544834.59510.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <733327.43844.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Gowhar Fazli   The protagonist "HE" in the conversation you have posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are the "HE" then you are a filthy liar.   I refer to the statement:    """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row."""""""   It is true that 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized society. I consider even the deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, regretable and avoidable.      But that does not mean that 'morons' like you should have the licence to float blatant lies on this List or any other place, perhaps with the smug thought that you will not be questioned.     Do you want to contest my declaring you a 'filthy liar'?    I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 to 5 deaths daily in the 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any credible news source of your choice. A credible  news source would for sure have a presence on the Web where your statement can be confirmed as being 'truthful' or as being a 'filthy lie' as I have called it.   Kshmendra --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli wrote: From: gowhar fazli Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! (Commenting on my status of OBAH MUAH!) HE: :) SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and bollywud magic that day on tv ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and kisses....wah!!! HE: and compare the two elections... one in Kashmir n one in US! SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look at the conduct of political parties in jk, the language and hate for each other....more to blame is also Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream India......in fact in south Asia, the polity is mired with corruption, vote bank and slur....we still have to grow as a democracy...remember we are only 60..as compared to US 200. As far as Kashmir is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly they blame the Indian govt of doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used and subverted democratic institutions for their own interest. U know the major draw back in our part of the world is that we do not have the courage for self correctness, self introspection.....USA did that....they have brought in change...I admire that... baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part with yours SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call for Jamia Chalo for killing of 5 lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people protested in Kashmir for Azadi and were forced indoors by shooting on the protests... Kashmir is in no mood for election right now... yet it has to be imposed... without any negotiation with the leadership opposed to it. All that the government can offer is to impose a conventional election to meet its deadline to show that all is well in Kashmir. It is not. I think the bigger problem is this not the morality of our local politicians. the conditions we live in can only produce the kind of politicians we presently have. USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for eight years before it was time for Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides how Kashmiris should behave and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership has to suite India’s self-image its foreign policy and morality. SHE: you forget that people who are standing for elections ( record number filled in nomination...to counter each other , their party workers shouting anti India slogans ) or people wanting to vote are also Kashmiris. Even Panun Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for different reasons. They are Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want to vote are Kashmiris too...so are the Sikhs and not to forget there are Ladhakis , Poocnhis, etc who want to vote...no one is shying away from resolving the issue...spell out the agenda and ideology and let people decide, why intimidate them, kill them...why instill so much hatred in them...and when I say they..I mean all those, religious groups, media, separatist so called nationalist.... who want to build their own constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or anywhere else...as I said we need to sit and talk....chatting on these issues is bit difficult... HE: I didn’t forget them... Ladakhis, Pandits, Jammu-ites, and all those who want to vote for various reasons... Yet daily killing to keep people to keep them from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against elections (peacefully I do not see pelting stones at heavily armed security forces from by lanes as serious violence especially when you are permanently held under section 144) cannot be justified because some people there or elsewhere want to vote. The context in which elections are happening is pure imposition... more of what has been happening all along. Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling out agendas is not possible and largely the establishment which wields power in Kashmir is responsible for maintaining such a situation there. There is too much intelligence interference... too much security structure to allow people to breathe... let alone have a Democratic process. Too much of humiliation on the daily basis to let a person feel human enough... Even those who were alienated from religion or primordial identities are being pushed to adopt these for bare survival. In wake of this the only articulation that is possible is hate or violence. You cannot sit on someone’s throat and ask him/her to talk peace. They might oblige until you get off... but then hate you with all the intensity they can muster soon after that. I think the situation is like this... We have beaten Kashmiris to the point of making them into brutes... and now we justify the continuity of violence by saying look they are actually brutes and deserve it! Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir since late nineties should have given a breather to India to bring about a serious dialogue. But what do they do? Decide that the temporary lull is the solution and squander the chance. We cannot maintain the facade of moral preachers after all that has happened in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame and let the people have their say. Even though what they decide might not be to our liking and in our opinion disastrous for them. Too often our personal interests get enmeshed with our moral visions and cloud our judgment such that we cannot see what is actually happening to people. At least I for one have stopped passing judgments on the people of Kashmir and demonizing them. I hope more of the civil society activists who engage with Kashmir will begin to do so. When you refer to intimidation and killing i am surprised that you miss out the biggest killing machine in motion right now... the CRPF! You see we percieve different realities because of where each of us is located. The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row. This seems to be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. I have my batchmates within the force and they give horrifying accounts of how the force percieves ordinary Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or humiliated for no reason but for what they are. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 18:34:36 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:34:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <4b1e36590811080320p3c147b56k52e0601872cb1f64@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811061844l605cfab4i3693a0c429e19460@mail.gmail.com> <761372.12498.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4b1e36590811080320p3c147b56k52e0601872cb1f64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf It has pictures of the spitting incident. It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the list administrator. best shivam o o o November 4, 2006 HT Correspondent New Delhi, November 07, 2008 First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) Ugly scenes mar DU seminar A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting the programme briefly. The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," said Sharma. The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and detained the activists. The University Community –– an independent group of students and teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the violence. "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement said. Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani said. DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. History (Honours) syllabus. http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh wrote: > Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every > bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer > report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" ("interactive > session" where venom was spewed on the > > Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of > reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is > from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified manner > in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, was > it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he > missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the > sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must write a > strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case you > don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all > Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. > > > > A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking > public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't > deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't let > you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports > on vandalism in DU. > > > > Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did > so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a > moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what did > court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked the > court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the "nationalist > organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for Terrorism will > remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a > sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I got > to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their > involvement in Malegaon. > > > > Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from > medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a > terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to > security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian > Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is > involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a Kashmiri > ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse > and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay if > I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' a > terrorist when is been acquitted? > > > (*To be continued…………*) > > > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >> But Hindus.. >> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >> terrorist... >> >> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack and >> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and greater >> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >> >> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' on >> their forehead... >> >> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call yourself >> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> To: sarai list >> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star >> speaker >> >> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >> >> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >> >> The Daily Pioneer >> >> Link - >> >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >> * >> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take on >> ABVP 'goons'* >> >> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the >> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — SAR >> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. >> >> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >> Faculty >> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by >> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the >> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani >> was >> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', >> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >> >> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national >> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and letting >> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government >> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me later >> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 >> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He >> said >> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy in >> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," he >> said. >> >> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of DU, >> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" and >> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working journalists >> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, >> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the Students' >> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >> >> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >> "Inquilab >> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >> fascism." >> >> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, was >> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >> teacher >> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a talk'. >> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet Singh >> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk in >> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, >> however, went on. >> >> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar room >> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An activist >> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, >> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and the >> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite >> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kaksanjay at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 18:42:32 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:42:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Nader to Obama Message-ID: <5c5369880811080512i78aa851cpf20343eebebdc3b0@mail.gmail.com> While our hands are still aching from all the clapping, and our ears ring from the applause, a worthwhile caveat from Ralph Nader. Apologies for cross-posting Sanjay Kak _______________________ Open Letter to Sen. Obama http://www.votenader.org/media/2008/11/03/lettertoobama/# November 3, 2008 Open letter to Senator Barack Obama Dear Senator Obama: In your nearly two-year presidential campaign, the words "hope and change," "change and hope" have been your trademark declarations. Yet there is an asymmetry between those objectives and your political character that succumbs to contrary centers of power that want not "hope and change" but the continuation of the power-entrenched status quo. Far more than Senator McCain, you have received enormous, unprecedented contributions from corporate interests, Wall Street interests and, most interestingly, big corporate law firm attorneys. Never before has a Democratic nominee for President achieved this supremacy over his Republican counterpart. Why, apart from your unconditional vote for the $700 billion Wall Street bailout, are these large corporate interests investing so much in Senator Obama? Could it be that in your state Senate record, your U.S. Senate record and your presidential campaign record (favoring nuclear power, coal plants, offshore oil drilling, corporate subsidies including the 1872 Mining Act and avoiding any comprehensive program to crack down on the corporate crime wave and the bloated, wasteful military budget, for example) you have shown that you are their man? To advance change and hope, the presidential persona requires character, courage, integrity— not expediency, accommodation and short-range opportunism. Take, for example, your transformation from an articulate defender of Palestinian rights in Chicago before your run for the U.S. Senate to an acolyte, a dittoman for the hard-line AIPAC lobby, which bolsters the militaristic oppression, occupation, blockage, colonization and land-water seizures over the years of the Palestinian peoples and their shrunken territories in the West Bank and Gaza. Eric Alterman summarized numerous polls in a December 2007 issue of The Nation magazine showing that AIPAC policies are opposed by a majority of Jewish-Americans. You know quite well that only when the U.S. Government supports the Israeli and Palestinian peace movements, that years ago worked out a detailed two-state solution (which is supported by a majority of Israelis and Palestinians), will there be a chance for a peaceful resolution of this 60-year plus conflict. Yet you align yourself with the hard-liners, so much so that in your infamous, demeaning speech to the AIPAC convention right after you gained the nomination of the Democratic Party, you supported an "undivided Jerusalem," and opposed negotiations with Hamas— the elected government in Gaza. Once again, you ignored the will of the Israeli people who, in a March 1, 2008 poll by the respected newspaper Haaretz, showed that 64% of Israelis favored "direct negotiations with Hamas." Siding with the AIPAC hard-liners is what one of the many leading Palestinians advocating dialogue and peace with the Israeli people was describing when he wrote "Anti-semitism today is the persecution of Palestinian society by the Israeli state." During your visit to Israel this summer, you scheduled a mere 45 minutes of your time for Palestinians with no news conference, and no visit to Palestinian refugee camps that would have focused the media on the brutalization of the Palestinians. Your trip supported the illegal, cruel blockade of Gaza in defiance of international law and the United Nations charter. You focused on southern Israeli casualties which during the past year have totaled one civilian casualty to every 400 Palestinian casualties on the Gaza side. Instead of a statesmanship that decried all violence and its replacement with acceptance of the Arab League's 2002 proposal to permit a viable Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in return for full economic and diplomatic relations between Arab countries and Israel, you played the role of a cheap politician, leaving the area and Palestinians with the feeling of much shock and little awe. David Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator, described your trip succinctly: "There was almost a willful display of indifference to the fact that there are two narratives here. This could serve him well as a candidate, but not as a President." Palestinian American commentator, Ali Abunimah, noted that Obama did not utter a single criticism of Israel, "of its relentless settlement and wall construction, of the closures that make life unlivable for millions of Palestinians. …Even the Bush administration recently criticized Israeli's use of cluster bombs against Lebanese civilians [see www.atfl.org for elaboration]. But Obama defended Israeli's assault on Lebanon as an exercise of its 'legitimate right to defend itself.'" In numerous columns Gideon Levy, writing in Haaretz, strongly criticized the Israeli government's assault on civilians in Gaza, including attacks on "the heart of a crowded refugee camp… with horrible bloodshed" in early 2008. Israeli writer and peace advocate— Uri Avnery— described Obama's appearance before AIPAC as one that "broke all records for obsequiousness and fawning, adding that Obama "is prepared to sacrifice the most basic American interests. After all, the US has a vital interest in achieving an Israeli-Palestinian peace that will allow it to find ways to the hearts of the Arab masses from Iraq to Morocco. Obama has harmed his image in the Muslim world and mortgaged his future— if and when he is elected president.," he said, adding, "Of one thing I am certain: Obama's declarations at the AIPAC conference are very, very bad for peace. And what is bad for peace is bad for Israel, bad for the world and bad for the Palestinian people." A further illustration of your deficiency of character is the way you turned your back on the Muslim-Americans in this country. You refused to send surrogates to speak to voters at their events. Having visited numerous churches and synagogues, you refused tovisit a single Mosque in America. Even George W. Bush visited the Grand Mosque in Washington D.C. after 9/11 to express proper sentiments of tolerance before a frightened major religious group of innocents. Although the New York Times published a major article on June 24, 2008 titled "Muslim Voters Detect a Snub from Obama" (by Andrea Elliott), citing examples of your aversion to these Americans who come from all walks of life, who serve in the armed forces and who work to live the American dream. Three days earlier the International Herald Tribune published an article by Roger Cohen titled "Why Obama Should Visit a Mosque." None of these comments and reports change your political bigotry against Muslim-Americans— even though your father was a Muslim from Kenya. Perhaps nothing illustrated your utter lack of political courage or even the mildest version of this trait than your surrendering to demands of the hard-liners to prohibit former president Jimmy Carter from speaking at the Democratic National Convention. This is a tradition for former presidents and one accorded in prime time to Bill Clinton this year. Here was a President who negotiated peace between Israel and Egypt, but his recent book pressing the dominant Israeli superpower to avoid Apartheid of the Palestinians and make peace was all that it took to sideline him. Instead of an important address to the nation by Jimmy Carter on this critical international problem, he was relegated to a stroll across the stage to "tumultuous applause," following a showing of a film about the Carter Center's post-Katrina work. Shame on you, Barack Obama! But then your shameful behavior has extended to many other areas of American life. (See the factual analysis by my running mate, Matt Gonzalez, on www.votenader.org). You have turned your back on the 100-million poor Americans composed of poor whites, African-Americans, and Latinos. You always mention helping the "middle class" but you omit, repeatedly, mention of the "poor" in America. Should you be elected President, it must be more than an unprecedented upward career move following a brilliantly unprincipled campaign that spoke "change" yet demonstrated actual obeisance to the concentration power of the "corporate supremacists." It must be about shifting the power from the few to the many. It must be a White House presided over by a black man who does not turn his back on the downtrodden here and abroad but challenges the forces of greed, dictatorial control of labor, consumers and taxpayers, and the militarization of foreign policy. It must be a White House that is transforming of American politics— opening it up to the public funding of elections (through voluntary approaches)— and allowing smaller candidates to have a chance to be heard on debates and in the fullness of their now restricted civil liberties. Call it a competitive democracy. Your presidential campaign again and again has demonstrated cowardly stands. "Hope" some say springs eternal." But not when "reality" consumes it daily. Sincerely, Ralph Nader From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 19:44:50 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:44:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mutiny in the mountains Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080614g766fcd0dv124b5609f4bf6fe5@mail.gmail.com> Mutiny in the mountains Basharat Peer Published 06 November 2008 New Statesman http://www.newstatesman.com/print/200811060018 One afternoon in August this year, I left a magazine office near the East Village in New York after an interview, and made my way to Washington Square Park. It was there that I received a call I shall never forget. It was from my brother in Kashmir. "They have fired on the protesters," he said. "Thirteen or fourteen people, and some say more, have been killed." A month later, on the flight home to Kashmir from Delhi, I gave up my attempts to read a news magazine as the pilot announced that we would be landing in Srinagar in a few minutes. I stared out of the window and somehow the joy of seeing Kashmir again reminded me of the melancholy of many departures, of how on every flight out of Kashmir I would stare out of the window as the plane took off, while below me there would be the receding houses growing smaller every moment, the paddies turning into neat green squares marked by their edges, the metalled roads connecting villages shrink ing into black lines, and in a few minutes Kashmir appearing as a pristine, serene bowl framed by snow-peaked mountains. The day before, in Delhi, I had visited an exhibition of the work of a 20-year-old Kashmiri artist named Malik Sajad. Inside loops of sharp concertina wire, Malik had hung framed pictures of heavily militarised Kashmiri streets, with young unarmed protesters staring at soldiers. One of the cartoons depicted Gandhi being detained at a checkpost because he had forgotten his identity card. An hour later, four bombs went off in central Delhi markets, killing 20 people. Indian Mujahedin, a jihadi group, sent emails to television channels and newspapers claiming responsibility for the attack as revenge against the 2002 Guj arat pogrom, in which Hindu extremist mobs had killed as many as 2,000 Muslims with support from the state government and police. The next day brought the news of the arrest of Malik Sajad, the cartoonist whose exhibition I had attended Shortly after the bombs exploded, Sajad had walked from the cultural centre to a nearby internet cafe where he was trying to email the daily cartoon to his editor at one of Kashmir's largest-selling English language newspapers, Greater Kashmir. The shopkeeper was suspicious of him and called the nearby office of the anti-terrorism wing of the Delhi Police. They arrived to drag Sajad by his neck across the road. A few hundred civilians gathered around to catch a glimpse of a supposed terrorist. "Why do you Kashmiris have problems with India?" a policeman shouted at the artist. Then they called the cultural centre, which confirmed who the young artist was and that he had been invited to exhibit his work in Delhi. Arriving a few days later in Srinagar, the Kashmiri capital, Sajad spoke of his relief at finally being back at home. Once a beautiful medieval city known for its multi-storey wooden houses with latticework windows, exquisite Sufi shrines, ancient Hindu temples, and ornate houseboats on Dal Lake, Srinagar is now one of the world's most militarised cities. It has lost its nights to a decade and a half of curfews and de facto curfews. Srinagar now has empty streets, locked shops, angry soldiers and boys with stones. As I travel around Srinagar, I see a bridge, a clearing, or a nondescript building and know that men fell here, that a boy was tortured there. Yet whenever I return to my broken city, I always feel, like Malik, a sense of relief. On the first Friday after I arrived home, the shops in Srinagar closed at noon. Lal Chowk, a crowded bazaar in the city centre, full of students, shoppers and soldiers, emptied eerily in a few minutes. A few blocks away, in the Maisuma area of Srinagar, Indian paramilitaries and police armed with automatic rifles and tear gas guns took positions in concrete bunkers and on street corners. A few thousand Kashmiris stood in Friday prayer along the half-mile row of modest brick houses and stores while police blocked the lanes joining Maisuma to the city centre, using loops of concertina wire. After the prayers, Yasin Malik, a wiry man in his forties who lives in a decrepit mud and brick house, led the protest. In the winter of 1989, when a rebellion against Indian rule had broken out in Kashmir, Malik was then the 21-year-old commander of the armed group Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front, which sought independence from India. In the mid-Nineties, after pro-Pakistan, Islamist militant groups attacked the Kashmiri nationalist JKLF and took over the anti-India insurgency, Malik renounced violence and became a self-styled Gandhian. Now he was leading another protest, with young and old chanting: "We Want Freedom! Go India! Go!" The tense soldiers looked on in silence. "You are late," a college friend who worked at a bank nearby said to me. "You should have been here earlier." He was referring to the protests, which ran from mid-July to mid-September and in which hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris had come out on the streets to agitate for freedom from Indian rule. What was most startling was that the protests were peaceful. Not a single bullet was fired on the Indian soldiers, and because of this the Islamist militants who had been fighting Indian forces for much of the past decade had suddenly become irrelevant. Kashmir, it seemed, had made an overwhelming transition from insurgent violence to Gandhian, non-violent protest. The message was clear, even on the posters of a coalition of separatist groups: Us Qaum Ko Shamsher Ki Haajat Nahin Padti; Ho Jis Ke Jawanoon Ki Khudi Ho Surat-e-Faulaad (The Nation Whose Youth Are Awake Needs No Swords). The Indian soldiers and police responded to these peaceful protests in the only way they knew - with violence. Between 11 August, when a senior separatist leader, Sheikh Aziz, was killed in northern Kashmir while leading a protest along the Jhelum Valley Road, and mid-September, the police opened fire on and killed as many as 50 protesters and injured more than 700 in scores of incidents in Srinagar, in the towns of Baramulla and Bandipora and in various villages. Political discontent has simmered in the Indian-controlled sector of Kashmir since partition in 1947, when Hari Singh, the Hindu maharajah of the Muslim-majority state, joined India after a raid by tribals from Pakistan. The agreement of accession that Singh signed with India in October 1947 gave Kashmir much autonomy; India controlled only defence, foreign affairs and telecommunications. But, in later years, India began to erode Kashmir's autonomy by imprisoning popularly elected leaders and appointing quiescent puppet administrators who helped extend the jurisdiction of the Indian supreme court over Kashmir. India and Pakistan have fought three wars over control of the old princely state of Kashmir. In 1987, the government in Indian-controlled Kashmir rigged a local election, after which Kashmiris lost the little faith they had in India and began a secessionist armed uprising with support from Pakistan. The Indian military presence in Kashmir rose to half a million and by the mid-Nineties jihadi outfits from Pakistan began to dominate the rebellion. Although violence has fallen in the past few years and the number of active militants has reduced to fewer than 500, according to the Kashmir police, peace talks between India and Pakistan have made little progress. The exception, in April 2005, was the symbolic opening of a bus service across the Line of Control, the de facto border which has divided the two parts of Kashmir between India and Pakistan since the first war over the state in 1947. Since 1990, the conflict has claimed as many as 70,000 lives - mostly of Kashmiri civilians and militants, as well as Indian soldiers and policemen - but the lessening violence after 2003 and increasing tourist flows from India have created an impression that Kashmir has been "pacified". The protests of this summer destroyed any illusion of peace. They were provoked by the transfer, in May, of 100 acres of land by the Kashmir government, led by India's ruling Congress Party, to a trust that manages a Hindu pilgrimage to the Amarnath cave in the mountains of southern Kashmir. The cave, discovered by a Muslim shepherd in the mid-19th century, is associated with Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction, and Hindus believe a phallic ice formation inside the cave is a manifestation of Shiva. The pilgrimage used to be a small affair of a few thousand pilgrims over a few weeks. Local Muslims provided the necessary support, setting up shops along the route, providing food supplies and helping to carry the old and weak on horsebacks into the high mountains. But from the mid-Nineties, India's emerging Hindu nationalists made strong efforts to turn the pilgrimage into a mega-event, an exercise in Hindu supremacy, using the presence of thousands of pilgrims as a sign of greater Indian control over Kashmir. Many Kashmiri Muslims viewed the land transfer as a move towards Hindu hegemony, and in June thousands protested against it. The Kashmir government revoked the land transfer after five protesters had been shot. The Hindus in Jammu, the southern province of the state, then began counter protests; they attacked and burnt some houses owned by Muslims and blocked the only road connecting the Kashmir Valley with the Indian plains. Kashmiri apple growers, whose produce was rotting as the blockade stopped it from being transported to markets in Delhi, marched in protest to Pakistan. On 11 August, thousands of ordinary people joined the march on the Jhelum Valley Road, which connected Kashmir with the cities of Rawalpindi and Lahore before the partition of British India. That was when the Indian soldiers fired on the protesters, and my brother called me in New York. The protests quickly transformed from being about a land dispute to being about freedom from Indian rule, and hundreds of marches followed, including a huge march on 22 August to the United Nations Observer Group office in Srinagar. Most of the injured were brought to SMHS Hospital in Srinagar. There is a single poster on the walls of the casualty ward of a dignified old man with a beard and a Jinnah cap: Sheikh Abdul Aziz, the separatist leader, one of the first to be shot and killed by the Indian troops . In a sanitised room at the hospital, I met Saleem Iqbal, a 41-year-old surgeon who heads the team of 30 doctors working on the casualty ward. Dr Iqbal, a soft-faced man with a black moustache, had been preparing his team for the worst since the latest wave of protests began. "I have worked here for 14 years and we expected the injured to be brought to the hospitals the moment the protests began. That is how it was in the early Nineties," he told me. At that time, when Kashmiris rebelled against Indian rule and millions came out on to the streets demanding freedom, Indian troops had opened fire, killing hundreds. One of the doctors at the hospital told me that after the recent shootings he had "operated on 15 people but saved only five. I had to amputate the legs of young boys." A few days after our meeting, I saw Dr Iqbal again at a fundraising event, where the Kashmiri middle class had gathered to raise money for ambulances and medicines for the injured who couldn't afford them, including some of the boys whose legs had been amputated. Not everyone was despondent. The recent protests have, for the first time since 1990, shifted Indian opinion on Kashmir. Many Indian writers, editors and journalists are beginning to discuss properly for the first time the possibility of an India without Kashmir. Vir Sanghvi, the celebrated former editor of India's major English daily, the Hindustan Times, wrote in the paper on 16 August: "I reckon we should hold a referendum in the Valley. Let the Kashmiris determine their own destiny. If they want to stay in India, they are welcome. But if they don't, then we have no moral right to force them to remain . . . It's time to think the unthinkable." India traditionally described Muslim-majority Kashmir as an integral part of the nation, necessary to prove its claim to be a secular country in which Hindus and Muslims were equal citizens. But the claims of Indian plurality and secularism have been weakened by the rise of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and especially by the 2002 anti-Muslim pogroms in Gujarat. However, these recent debates among the Indian intellectual elite reminded me of the many afternoons I have spent with friends in Srinagar coffee shops talking about Kashmir and India. Most of us were sure that India would never leave Kashmir. But something is changing, on both sides. Many more lives could have been lost through September if the Kashmiri separatist leaders had not called on people to suspend the protests during Ramadan; the Indian government responded by lifting the curfew. But the protests were set to resume in October and a coordination committee with representatives from various separatist groups called on people to march en masse to Lal Chowk on 6 October. No one knew how the Indian troops would respond to another march. On that morning, I woke up to the sound of birds chirping on the mulberry and chinar trees in the backyard of my house in southern Srinagar. Outside, the streets were silent; there were groups of paramilitaries standing with guns and bamboo sticks near the neighbourhood bunker. I sat on the lawn reading the Palestinian writer Raja Shehadeh's Palestinian Walks: Notes on a Vanishing Landscape, which is an account of the difficulties and impossibilities of walking around your own landscape in the face of conflict and occupation. Later, in the afternoon, I managed to get a curfew pass and rode with a journalist friend to Lal Chowk. Indian paramilitaries and soldiers used thick loops of barbed wire and walls of iron sheets to block almost every lane leading there. Three boys played cricket in a narrow lane off the main square. I watched as paramilitaries stopped a red SUV coming towards us. I saw the drained faces of two men inside; the legs of a dead woman wrapped in floral sheet jutted out of a window. They were taking her home from a Srinagar hospital. The SUV was allowed to pass after a few minutes, but it somehow reinforced the omnipresence of death. In my two-mile journey back home that evening, I was forced to produce my curfew pass and identity card at ten different checkpoints. Driving through the silent streets was a reminder of how efficient India's military control of Kashmir had become: a city of more than a million people had been turned into an open prison because its people had planned to go on a peaceful march for freedom. Police vans had been driving through various Srinagar neighbourhoods warning people that those who defied the curfew would be shot. As many as 70,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in the past 20 years of armed conflict in Kashmir. That October day, the people of Srinagar stayed home to save many more from being shot and killed. But they stared in defiance from open windows, as their armed Indian jailers passed by in military vehicles. India has rejected even moderate demands to remove some of the half-million Indian forces from civilian areas or to restore some of Kashmir's lost autonomy. There are parliamentary elections in India next year, and the exaggerated fear, for now, is that any party that concedes ground on Kashmir will lose votes. This means that, for the coming months, Kashmiris will remain on edge, angry and protesting, dying in their ones and twos. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 20:14:18 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 06:44:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?RFUgYWxsb3dzIOKAmHNlbWluYXLigJkgYmxhc3Rp?= =?utf-8?q?ng_Govt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been accused of is not within my competence to comment on.   As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by due processes of Law.    Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution'.   The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven.   As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen of India, including the "Right of Speech".   In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, while receiving such and other "Rights"  under the Constitution of India accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which includes the State of J&K.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: From: Shivam V Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows ‘seminar’ blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf It has pictures of the spitting incident. It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the list administrator. best shivam o o o November 4, 2006 HT Correspondent New Delhi, November 07, 2008 First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) Ugly scenes mar DU seminar A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting the programme briefly. The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," said Sharma. The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and detained the activists. The University Community –– an independent group of students and teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the violence. "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement said. Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani said. DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. History (Honours) syllabus. http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh wrote: > Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every > bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer > report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" ("interactive > session" where venom was spewed on the > > Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of > reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is > from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified manner > in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, was > it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he > missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the > sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must write a > strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case you > don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all > Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. > > > > A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking > public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't > deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't let > you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports > on vandalism in DU. > > > > Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did > so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a > moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what did > court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked the > court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the "nationalist > organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for Terrorism will > remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a > sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I got > to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their > involvement in Malegaon. > > > > Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from > medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a > terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to > security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian > Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is > involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a Kashmiri > ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse > and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay if > I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' a > terrorist when is been acquitted? > > > (*To be continued…………*) > > > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >> But Hindus.. >> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >> terrorist... >> >> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack and >> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and greater >> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >> >> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' on >> their forehead... >> >> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call yourself >> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> To: sarai list >> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star >> speaker >> >> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >> >> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >> >> The Daily Pioneer >> >> Link - >> >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >> * >> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take on >> ABVP 'goons'* >> >> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the >> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — SAR >> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. >> >> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >> Faculty >> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by >> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the >> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani >> was >> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', >> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >> >> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national >> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and letting >> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government >> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me later >> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 >> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He >> said >> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy in >> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," he >> said. >> >> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of DU, >> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" and >> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working journalists >> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, >> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the Students' >> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >> >> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >> "Inquilab >> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >> fascism." >> >> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, was >> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >> teacher >> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a talk'. >> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet Singh >> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk in >> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, >> however, went on. >> >> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar room >> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An activist >> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, >> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and the >> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite >> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kaksanjay at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 20:30:50 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:30:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> This post from Kshemendra Kaul imagines an interesting formulation of 'rights' under the Indian constitution. Do those who don't owe allegience to the Indian constitution have no rights under Indian law? Is the right to free spech in India limited only to those who accept the primacy of its Constitution? Let's flip the omlette: as a vistor to the US, am I expected to zip my lips and be silent about the criminal record of the US Government, and should I be expected to swear by the US constitution while I am there? Tough, politically schizophrenic world imagined here... Sanjay Kak On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been accused of is not within my competence to comment on. > > As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by due processes of Law. > > Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution'. > > The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. > > As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen of India, including the "Right of Speech". > > In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which includes the State of J&K. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > > From: Shivam V > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker > To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM > > You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: > http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > > It has pictures of the spitting incident. > > It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). > > There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan > Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the > list administrator. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > > November 4, 2006 > HT Correspondent > New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > > Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > > A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > > Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi > University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting > the programme briefly. > > The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > > "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," > said Sharma. > > The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > detained the activists. > > The University Community –– an independent group of students and > teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > violence. > > "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided > with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > > To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > > In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing > a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement > said. > > Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a > community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > said. > > DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. > "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > > Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > History (Honours) syllabus. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > > (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh > wrote: >> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every >> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" > ("interactive >> session" where venom was spewed on the >> >> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is >> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified > manner >> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, > was >> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must > write a >> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case > you >> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >> >> >> >> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't > let >> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports >> on vandalism in DU. >> >> >> >> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did >> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what > did >> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked > the >> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the > "nationalist >> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for > Terrorism will >> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I > got >> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >> involvement in Malegaon. >> >> >> >> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a > Kashmiri >> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse >> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay > if >> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' > a >> terrorist when is been acquitted? >> >> >> (*To be continued…………*) >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>> But Hindus.. >>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>> terrorist... >>> >>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack > and >>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and > greater >>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>> >>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put > 'Tika' on >>> their forehead... >>> >>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call > yourself >>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>> To: sarai list >>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; > Geelani is star >>> speaker >>> >>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>> >>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>> >>> The Daily Pioneer >>> >>> Link - >>> >>> > http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>> * >>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in > India, take on >>> ABVP 'goons'* >>> >>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed > on the >>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known > anti-national — SAR >>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was > hero-worshipped. >>> >>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>> Faculty >>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed > by >>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in > the >>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. > Geelani >>> was >>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and > Reality', >>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>> >>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of > national >>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and > letting >>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the > Government >>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me > later >>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in > the 2003 >>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. > He >>> said >>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of > democracy in >>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of > corruption," he >>> said. >>> >>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments > of DU, >>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long > Live" and >>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two > working journalists >>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia > Islamia, >>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the > Students' >>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>> >>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>> "Inquilab >>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>> fascism." >>> >>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, > was >>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>> teacher >>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising > 'a talk'. >>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet > Singh >>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their > talk in >>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. > The meeting, >>> however, went on. >>> >>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar > room >>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande > Mataram'. An activist >>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying > 'shame, >>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, > chairs and the >>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued > despite >>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 20:47:20 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:47:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080717x28463f27u8cc135d3b2275fe7@mail.gmail.com> Kshmendra Kaul is basically saying that as he enjoys his Rights, he must therefore follow the Duties. However, the Constitution says that the Duties are not mandatory or legally enforceable. They are in that sense like the Directive Principles of State Policy - advisory in nature. Denial of rights, however, can be challenged in the Supreme Court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Rights,_Directive_Principles_and_Fundamental_Duties_of_India On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > This post from Kshemendra Kaul imagines an interesting formulation of > 'rights' under the Indian constitution. > Do those who don't owe allegience to the Indian constitution have no > rights under Indian law? > Is the right to free spech in India limited only to those who accept > the primacy of its Constitution? > Let's flip the omlette: as a vistor to the US, am I expected to zip my > lips and be silent about the criminal record of the US Government, and > should I be expected to swear by the US constitution while I am there? > Tough, politically schizophrenic world imagined here... > Sanjay Kak > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been accused of is not within my competence to comment on. >> >> As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by due processes of Law. >> >> Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution'. >> >> The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. >> >> As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen of India, including the "Right of Speech". >> >> In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which includes the State of J&K. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: >> >> From: Shivam V >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >> To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" >> Cc: "sarai list" >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM >> >> You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: >> http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf >> >> It has pictures of the spitting incident. >> >> It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his >> right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the >> Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not >> convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to >> speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). >> >> There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan >> Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied >> their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the >> list administrator. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> o o o >> >> >> November 4, 2006 >> HT Correspondent >> New Delhi, November 07, 2008 >> First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) >> Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) >> >> Ugly scenes mar DU seminar >> >> A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi >> Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. >> The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the >> presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and >> at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. >> >> Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi >> University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma >> damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on >> 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting >> the programme briefly. >> >> The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's >> North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, >> chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. >> >> "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in >> the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even >> approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," >> said Sharma. >> >> The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and >> detained the activists. >> >> The University Community –– an independent group of students and >> teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the >> violence. >> >> "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided >> with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the >> guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, >> student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. >> >> To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts >> Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. >> >> In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing >> a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were >> increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick >> mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to >> Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement >> said. >> >> Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and >> debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a >> community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the >> meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani >> said. >> >> DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. >> "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said >> Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. >> >> Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they >> vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri >> protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. >> History (Honours) syllabus. >> >> http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 >> >> (c) Copyright 2007 HindustanTimes >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh >> wrote: >>> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every >>> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >>> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" >> ("interactive >>> session" where venom was spewed on the >>> >>> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >>> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is >>> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified >> manner >>> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, >> was >>> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >>> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >>> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must >> write a >>> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case >> you >>> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >>> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >>> >>> >>> >>> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >>> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >>> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't >> let >>> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports >>> on vandalism in DU. >>> >>> >>> >>> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did >>> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >>> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what >> did >>> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked >> the >>> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the >> "nationalist >>> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for >> Terrorism will >>> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >>> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I >> got >>> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >>> involvement in Malegaon. >>> >>> >>> >>> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >>> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >>> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >>> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >>> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >>> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a >> Kashmiri >>> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse >>> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay >> if >>> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' >> a >>> terrorist when is been acquitted? >>> >>> >>> (*To be continued…………*) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>>> But Hindus.. >>>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>>> terrorist... >>>> >>>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack >> and >>>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and >> greater >>>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>>> >>>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put >> 'Tika' on >>>> their forehead... >>>> >>>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call >> yourself >>>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> To: sarai list >>>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; >> Geelani is star >>>> speaker >>>> >>>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>>> >>>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>>> >>>> The Daily Pioneer >>>> >>>> Link - >>>> >>>> >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>>> * >>>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in >> India, take on >>>> ABVP 'goons'* >>>> >>>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed >> on the >>>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known >> anti-national — SAR >>>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was >> hero-worshipped. >>>> >>>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>>> Faculty >>>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed >> by >>>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in >> the >>>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. >> Geelani >>>> was >>>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and >> Reality', >>>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>>> >>>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of >> national >>>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and >> letting >>>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the >> Government >>>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me >> later >>>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in >> the 2003 >>>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. >> He >>>> said >>>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of >> democracy in >>>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of >> corruption," he >>>> said. >>>> >>>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments >> of DU, >>>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long >> Live" and >>>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two >> working journalists >>>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia >> Islamia, >>>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the >> Students' >>>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>>> >>>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>>> "Inquilab >>>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>>> fascism." >>>> >>>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, >> was >>>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>>> teacher >>>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising >> 'a talk'. >>>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet >> Singh >>>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their >> talk in >>>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. >> The meeting, >>>> however, went on. >>>> >>>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar >> room >>>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande >> Mataram'. An activist >>>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying >> 'shame, >>>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, >> chairs and the >>>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued >> despite >>>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> mail at shivamvij dot com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 21:00:32 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:00:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811080717x28463f27u8cc135d3b2275fe7@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080717x28463f27u8cc135d3b2275fe7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811080730s62ca355fo57d81d3571a6f12e@mail.gmail.com> True. So, we have a right to raise our voice and question; protest against a terrorist S.A.R. Geelani, who the Indian masses believe was one of those involved with the Parliament Attack in some way. And, would continue to believe so till he is proven "not guilty" by the Police and as well the Courts. Remember he has been released, only on 'technical grounds". And, the SC judge says that there still is high suspicion on this Geelani, but since there is not sufficient 'legal proof', so he is released. Hope this makes things clearer. Hence, a reaction by DU students to a provocation of such a 'communally charged' seminar is expected till the time suspicion continues from all ends. Its quite unfortunate, that instead of being rightfully jailed, terrorist S.A.R. Geelani is paraded to such propaganda meetings and seminars by self proclaimed 'liberalists' & so called 'intellectuals' only to instigate students against one another. A person who doesn't know the difference between 'break' and 'broke'(refer Times Now & NDTV interview); do we expect him to understand the difference between 'Fascism' and 'Democracy', and on what side of the table he himself is. Hero's of Hate can't preach us secularism. Aditya Raj Kaul On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > > Kshmendra Kaul is basically saying that as he enjoys his Rights, he > must therefore follow the Duties. However, the Constitution says that > the Duties are not mandatory or legally enforceable. They are in that > sense like the Directive Principles of State Policy - advisory in > nature. Denial of rights, however, can be challenged in the Supreme > Court. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Rights,_Directive_Principles_and_Fundamental_Duties_of_India > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > > This post from Kshemendra Kaul imagines an interesting formulation of > > 'rights' under the Indian constitution. > > Do those who don't owe allegience to the Indian constitution have no > > rights under Indian law? > > Is the right to free spech in India limited only to those who accept > > the primacy of its Constitution? > > Let's flip the omlette: as a vistor to the US, am I expected to zip my > > lips and be silent about the criminal record of the US Government, and > > should I be expected to swear by the US constitution while I am there? > > Tough, politically schizophrenic world imagined here... > > Sanjay Kak > > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > >> Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been > accused of is not within my competence to comment on. > >> > >> As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by > due processes of Law. > >> > >> Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted > 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help > a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather > have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully > declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted > 'prosecution'. > >> > >> The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution > of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. > >> > >> As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen > of India, including the "Right of Speech". > >> > >> In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, > while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India > accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy > of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which > includes the State of J&K. > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > >> > >> From: Shivam V > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is > star speaker > >> To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" > >> Cc: "sarai list" > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM > >> > >> You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: > >> http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > >> > >> It has pictures of the spitting incident. > >> > >> It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > >> right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > >> Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > >> convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > >> speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). > >> > >> There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan > >> Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > >> their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the > >> list administrator. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> o o o > >> > >> > >> November 4, 2006 > >> HT Correspondent > >> New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > >> First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > >> Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > >> > >> Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > >> > >> A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > >> Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > >> The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > >> presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > >> at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > >> > >> Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi > >> University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > >> damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > >> 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting > >> the programme briefly. > >> > >> The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > >> North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > >> chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > >> > >> "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > >> the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > >> approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," > >> said Sharma. > >> > >> The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > >> detained the activists. > >> > >> The University Community –– an independent group of students and > >> teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > >> violence. > >> > >> "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided > >> with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > >> guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > >> student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > >> > >> To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > >> Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > >> > >> In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing > >> a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > >> increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > >> mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > >> Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement > >> said. > >> > >> Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > >> debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a > >> community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > >> meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > >> said. > >> > >> DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. > >> "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > >> Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > >> > >> Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > >> vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > >> protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > >> History (Honours) syllabus. > >> > >> > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > >> > >> (c) Copyright 2007 HindustanTimes > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh > >> wrote: > >>> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, > every > >>> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer > >>> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" > >> ("interactive > >>> session" where venom was spewed on the > >>> > >>> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of > >>> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he > is > >>> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified > >> manner > >>> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, > >> was > >>> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; > he > >>> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the > >>> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must > >> write a > >>> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case > >> you > >>> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all > >>> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking > >>> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't > >>> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't > >> let > >>> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other > reports > >>> on vandalism in DU. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court > did > >>> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a > >>> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what > >> did > >>> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked > >> the > >>> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the > >> "nationalist > >>> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for > >> Terrorism will > >>> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about > a > >>> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, > I > >> got > >>> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their > >>> involvement in Malegaon. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from > >>> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by > a > >>> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to > >>> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian > >>> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is > >>> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a > >> Kashmiri > >>> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right > abuse > >>> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that > okay > >> if > >>> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' > >> a > >>> terrorist when is been acquitted? > >>> > >>> > >>> (*To be continued…………*) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < > >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. > >>>> But Hindus.. > >>>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a > >>>> terrorist... > >>>> > >>>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack > >> and > >>>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and > >> greater > >>>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... > >>>> > >>>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put > >> 'Tika' on > >>>> their forehead... > >>>> > >>>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call > >> yourself > >>>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul > >>>> To: sarai list > >>>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM > >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; > >> Geelani is star > >>>> speaker > >>>> > >>>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker > >>>> > >>>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi > >>>> > >>>> The Daily Pioneer > >>>> > >>>> Link - > >>>> > >>>> > >> > http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html > >>>> * > >>>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in > >> India, take on > >>>> ABVP 'goons'* > >>>> > >>>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday > >>>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed > >> on the > >>>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known > >> anti-national — SAR > >>>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was > >> hero-worshipped. > >>>> > >>>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts > >>>> Faculty > >>>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed > >> by > >>>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in > >> the > >>>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. > >> Geelani > >>>> was > >>>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and > >> Reality', > >>>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. > >>>> > >>>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of > >> national > >>>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and > >> letting > >>>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the > >> Government > >>>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu > >>>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me > >> later > >>>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in > >> the 2003 > >>>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. > >> He > >>>> said > >>>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of > >> democracy in > >>>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of > >> corruption," he > >>>> said. > >>>> > >>>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments > >> of DU, > >>>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long > >> Live" and > >>>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two > >> working journalists > >>>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia > >> Islamia, > >>>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the > >> Students' > >>>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. > >>>> > >>>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists > >>>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, > >>>> "Inquilab > >>>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this > >>>> fascism." > >>>> > >>>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, > >> was > >>>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a > >>>> teacher > >>>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising > >> 'a talk'. > >>>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that > >>>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet > >> Singh > >>>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their > >> talk in > >>>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. > >> The meeting, > >>>> however, went on. > >>>> > >>>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar > >> room > >>>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande > >> Mataram'. An activist > >>>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying > >> 'shame, > >>>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, > >> chairs and the > >>>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued > >> despite > >>>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> mail at shivamvij dot com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > mail at shivamvij dot com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 21:02:11 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:02:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kerala HC: Petition admitted seeking bail cancellation of SIMI activists Message-ID: <6353c690811080732m318c8137id1d70574a5140e80@mail.gmail.com> *Kerala HC: Petition admitted seeking bail cancellation of SIMI activists* *11/8/2008 * The Kerala High Court admitted a petition seeking to cancel the bail of two accused, Samer and Abdul Hakkim, in a case relating to SIMI activists meeting at Panayikulam, Aluva. According to the prosecution, three CDs were seized from Samer's house containing the speeches of an accused in the Parliament attack case. Investigation was also on about the inter-state connections of the accused. Under these circumstances, the prosecution sought cancellation of the bail granted to the accused by a lower court. UNI From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 21:31:03 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:31:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kerala HC: Petition admitted seeking bail cancellation of SIMI activists In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080732m318c8137id1d70574a5140e80@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080732m318c8137id1d70574a5140e80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080801r56cf643eva0524516cac7c517@mail.gmail.com> The SIMI Fictions: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=Ne160808thekafka_project.asp On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > *Kerala HC: Petition admitted seeking bail cancellation of SIMI activists* > *11/8/2008 > > * > The Kerala High Court admitted a petition seeking to cancel the bail of two > accused, Samer and Abdul Hakkim, in a case relating to SIMI activists > meeting at Panayikulam, Aluva. > > According to the prosecution, three CDs were seized from Samer's house > containing the speeches of an accused in the Parliament attack case. > Investigation was also on about the inter-state connections of the accused. > > Under these circumstances, the prosecution sought cancellation of the bail > granted to the accused by a lower court. > > UNI > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 21:39:09 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:39:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police Message-ID: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* *VR Jayaraj | Kochi The Daily Pioneer Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html * The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the Parliament attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated in the SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, 2006. The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was prepared for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, Kerala, which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala Police had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but released them later after the alleged intervention of highly influential personalities. Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of the accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the court that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had any relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also said they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could have had relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We will come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say about this. Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the case of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining free could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that accused number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya Pradesh in relation to blast cases. The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were found during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they were examining the disks. The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation into the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of notices to the duo. D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to five of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement with SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to prove that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted to a crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part of the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations against the terror network existing in Kerala. Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the Panayikkulam camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody as part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including those of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror squad of the Kerala Police. Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, on Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed Faizal, who was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in Jammu & Kashmir. The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November 21. Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of Malayalee militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces in Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal had taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 21:44:51 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:44:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080730s62ca355fo57d81d3571a6f12e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080717x28463f27u8cc135d3b2275fe7@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080730s62ca355fo57d81d3571a6f12e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080814y2ecb3945j7324932db5a65623@mail.gmail.com> The right to free speech in the Indian Constitution is subject to "reasonable restrictions". These RRs do not include allowing student unions to prevent acquitted / accused persons from speaking in a seminar. The Akhil Bhartiya Vidyarthi Parishad, Shri Aditya Raj Kaul or Roots in Kashmir are private bodies or individuals and not Constitutional authorities. You can call SAR Geelani a terrorist as much as you want to but that does not make him a terrorist. Indeed, you have the right to think that he is a terrorist, put forward evidence to that effect, protest against him or the organisers of a conference that calls him to speak; campaign that he be hanged - and he may in turn have the right to sue you for defamation. which the courts may decide upon. However, to intimidate the speakers and organisers of a seminar, to vandalise the seminar room, "damaging the windows, doors, chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting"; for Nupur Sharma to lead the mob in doing so and give statemnets like, "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism" - these are clearly and unambiguously violations of the right to free speech. The ABVP "activists", and non-ABVP members who were part of the mob, should be charged under appropriate sections of the Indian Penal Code. The ABVP cannot become judge, jury and executioner and act with impunity. best shivam On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > True. So, we have a right to raise our voice and question; protest against a > terrorist S.A.R. Geelani, who the Indian masses believe was one of those > involved with the Parliament Attack in some way. And, would continue to > believe so till he is proven "not guilty" by the Police and as well the > Courts. Remember he has been released, only on 'technical grounds". And, the > SC judge says that there still is high suspicion on this Geelani, but since > there is not sufficient 'legal proof', so he is released. > > Hope this makes things clearer. > > Hence, a reaction by DU students to a provocation of such a 'communally > charged' seminar is expected till the time suspicion continues from all > ends. > > Its quite unfortunate, that instead of being rightfully jailed, terrorist > S.A.R. Geelani is paraded to such propaganda meetings and seminars by self > proclaimed 'liberalists' & so called 'intellectuals' only to instigate > students against one another. > > A person who doesn't know the difference between 'break' and 'broke'(refer > Times Now & NDTV interview); do we expect him to understand the difference > between 'Fascism' and 'Democracy', and on what side of the table he himself > is. > > Hero's of Hate can't preach us secularism. > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: >> >> Kshmendra Kaul is basically saying that as he enjoys his Rights, he >> must therefore follow the Duties. However, the Constitution says that >> the Duties are not mandatory or legally enforceable. They are in that >> sense like the Directive Principles of State Policy - advisory in >> nature. Denial of rights, however, can be challenged in the Supreme >> Court. >> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Rights,_Directive_Principles_and_Fundamental_Duties_of_India >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: >> > This post from Kshemendra Kaul imagines an interesting formulation of >> > 'rights' under the Indian constitution. >> > Do those who don't owe allegience to the Indian constitution have no >> > rights under Indian law? >> > Is the right to free spech in India limited only to those who accept >> > the primacy of its Constitution? >> > Let's flip the omlette: as a vistor to the US, am I expected to zip my >> > lips and be silent about the criminal record of the US Government, and >> > should I be expected to swear by the US constitution while I am there? >> > Tough, politically schizophrenic world imagined here... >> > Sanjay Kak >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> >> Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been >> accused of is not within my competence to comment on. >> >> >> >> As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by >> due processes of Law. >> >> >> >> Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted >> 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help >> a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather >> have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully >> declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted >> 'prosecution'. >> >> >> >> The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution >> of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. >> >> >> >> As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen >> of India, including the "Right of Speech". >> >> >> >> In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, >> while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India >> accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy >> of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which >> includes the State of J&K. >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: >> >> >> >> From: Shivam V >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is >> star speaker >> >> To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" >> >> Cc: "sarai list" >> >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM >> >> >> >> You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: >> >> http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf >> >> >> >> It has pictures of the spitting incident. >> >> >> >> It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his >> >> right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the >> >> Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not >> >> convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to >> >> speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). >> >> >> >> There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan >> >> Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied >> >> their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the >> >> list administrator. >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> o o o >> >> >> >> >> >> November 4, 2006 >> >> HT Correspondent >> >> New Delhi, November 07, 2008 >> >> First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) >> >> Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) >> >> >> >> Ugly scenes mar DU seminar >> >> >> >> A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi >> >> Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. >> >> The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the >> >> presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and >> >> at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. >> >> >> >> Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi >> >> University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma >> >> damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on >> >> 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting >> >> the programme briefly. >> >> >> >> The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's >> >> North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, >> >> chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. >> >> >> >> "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in >> >> the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even >> >> approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," >> >> said Sharma. >> >> >> >> The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and >> >> detained the activists. >> >> >> >> The University Community –– an independent group of students and >> >> teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the >> >> violence. >> >> >> >> "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided >> >> with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the >> >> guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, >> >> student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. >> >> >> >> To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts >> >> Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. >> >> >> >> In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing >> >> a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were >> >> increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick >> >> mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to >> >> Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement >> >> said. >> >> >> >> Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and >> >> debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a >> >> community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the >> >> meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani >> >> said. >> >> >> >> DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. >> >> "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said >> >> Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. >> >> >> >> Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they >> >> vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri >> >> protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. >> >> History (Honours) syllabus. >> >> >> >> >> http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 >> >> >> >> (c) Copyright 2007 HindustanTimes >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh >> >> wrote: >> >>> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, >> every >> >>> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >> >>> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" >> >> ("interactive >> >>> session" where venom was spewed on the >> >>> >> >>> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >> >>> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he >> is >> >>> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified >> >> manner >> >>> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, >> >> was >> >>> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; >> he >> >>> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >> >>> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must >> >> write a >> >>> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case >> >> you >> >>> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >> >>> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >> >>> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >> >>> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't >> >> let >> >>> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other >> reports >> >>> on vandalism in DU. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court >> did >> >>> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >> >>> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what >> >> did >> >>> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked >> >> the >> >>> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the >> >> "nationalist >> >>> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for >> >> Terrorism will >> >>> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about >> a >> >>> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, >> I >> >> got >> >>> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >> >>> involvement in Malegaon. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >> >>> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by >> a >> >>> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >> >>> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >> >>> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >> >>> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a >> >> Kashmiri >> >>> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right >> abuse >> >>> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that >> okay >> >> if >> >>> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' >> >> a >> >>> terrorist when is been acquitted? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> (*To be continued…………*) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >> >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >> >>>> But Hindus.. >> >>>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >> >>>> terrorist... >> >>>> >> >>>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack >> >> and >> >>>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and >> >> greater >> >>>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >> >>>> >> >>>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put >> >> 'Tika' on >> >>>> their forehead... >> >>>> >> >>>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call >> >> yourself >> >>>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> >>>> To: sarai list >> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >> >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; >> >> Geelani is star >> >>>> speaker >> >>>> >> >>>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >> >>>> >> >>>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >> >>>> >> >>>> The Daily Pioneer >> >>>> >> >>>> Link - >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >> >>>> * >> >>>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in >> >> India, take on >> >>>> ABVP 'goons'* >> >>>> >> >>>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >> >>>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed >> >> on the >> >>>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known >> >> anti-national — SAR >> >>>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was >> >> hero-worshipped. >> >>>> >> >>>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >> >>>> Faculty >> >>>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed >> >> by >> >>>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in >> >> the >> >>>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. >> >> Geelani >> >>>> was >> >>>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and >> >> Reality', >> >>>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >> >>>> >> >>>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of >> >> national >> >>>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and >> >> letting >> >>>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the >> >> Government >> >>>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >> >>>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me >> >> later >> >>>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in >> >> the 2003 >> >>>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. >> >> He >> >>>> said >> >>>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of >> >> democracy in >> >>>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of >> >> corruption," he >> >>>> said. >> >>>> >> >>>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments >> >> of DU, >> >>>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long >> >> Live" and >> >>>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two >> >> working journalists >> >>>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia >> >> Islamia, >> >>>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the >> >> Students' >> >>>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >> >>>> >> >>>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >> >>>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >> >>>> "Inquilab >> >>>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >> >>>> fascism." >> >>>> >> >>>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, >> >> was >> >>>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >> >>>> teacher >> >>>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising >> >> 'a talk'. >> >>>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >> >>>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet >> >> Singh >> >>>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their >> >> talk in >> >>>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. >> >> The meeting, >> >>>> however, went on. >> >>>> >> >>>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar >> >> room >> >>>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande >> >> Mataram'. An activist >> >>>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying >> >> 'shame, >> >>>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, >> >> chairs and the >> >>>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued >> >> despite >> >>>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >> >>>> _________________________________________ >> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>> List archive: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _________________________________________ >> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>> List archive: >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> mail at shivamvij dot com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> >> the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> mail at shivamvij dot com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From hanybabu at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 21:55:51 2008 From: hanybabu at gmail.com (hany babu) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:55:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press statement from University Community Message-ID: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> Press Statement *9th November 2008.* A protest march against the ABVP's fascist assault and vandalism was held by the University Community on the on 7th November, starting from Vivekananda statue, Arts Faculty of Delhi University. A large number of students and teachers from Delhi University were joined by JNU and Jamia students, and a march of more than 600 people traversed all colleges in the North Campus raising slogans. The march also stopped in front of DUSU office for around five minutes, raising slogans against ABVP as well as Nupur Sharma, the President and her associates who attacked the seminar on 6th November. The march proceeded to the Vice Chancellor's office, where a protest meeting was held. Students and teachers in one voice spoke against ABVP's communal-fascist politics, the inaction of the Delhi Police as well as the administration's attempt to curb the rights of speech and expression. A delegation of students and teachers, which also included the representatives of University Community, the organizers of the public meeting of the 6th November, met the DU administration and demanded immediate and strict action against the ABVP lumpens who were responsible for full-scale vandalism, physical assault and inciting communal frenzy. The university administration was asked to file an FIR against the culprits, and to constitute a time-bound enquiry into the incident. The ABVP and its masters, BJP, have however continued to justify their action. They, including Nupur Sharma have been giving communally charged statements in the media targeting Prof. SAR Geelani in particular and the university community in general. The ABVP has been spreading completely baseless allegations and are hounding the organizers of the public meeting and the members of the group, University Community. Yesterday the ABVP tried filed a false case alleging that four members of the group tried to attack the DUSU office. The white lie however was for all to see, the march was conducted peacefully and no such incident as alleged by the ABVP has ever occurred. The members of media were present, and a large contingent Delhi Police personnel was deployed which accompanied the whole course of the protest march, and they would have reported about it had such incident occurred. A number senior teachers of the university also were present, who marched along with the students. It is to be noted that even before the march reached in front of the DUSU office, the gates of the office were closed. After their fascist politics getting successfully repelled and thoroughly exposed, the ABVP and its masters in RSS and BJP are now resorting to spreading rumours and baseless allegations in order to save their face. We condemn such fascist tactics of the ABVP and the * sangh-parivar* to intimidate and repress the democratic voices of the campus. The University Community takes strong objection to the false and dangerous propaganda from a person holding a responsible office like the President of the student union the largest Central University of the country. Moreover, by calling a teacher of the university a terrorist, ABVP and Ms Nupur Sharma has insulted the entire student of the university. We demand an unconditional apology from Ms Nupur Sharma for her objectionable remark. By planning and organising the attack under her leadership personally (she personally led the vulgar attack on the spot) she made an aborted attempt to disrupt a meeting which was duly publicised and held at a venue with the permission of the University Authorities. ABVP is also challenging all the democratic structures of the university. In fact, this very act goes a long way to prove the concerns expressed by the organizers about the "increasing onslaught of the right- wing Hindu communal-fascist forces" in our country. This act and the brazen manner in which the DUSU President has carried this act shows us that the threat looms much larger than we can envisage. It is not only states like Gujarat or Orissa that are witness to this onslaught, even institutions of higher learning in the national capital are not free from the clutches of Hindu communal fascist goons. Ms Nupur Sharma has also gone on record saying that she herself would have spat on SAR Geelani. This also shows that the DUSU President has no respect for the law or the judicial system of the country, let alone codes of civilized conduct in public places. We should all think whether such a person has any right to hold a responsible office. It is the typical duplicity of politics of the Hindutva brigade to take recourse to the law when it is convenient for their divisive politics and to break it to run their writ as they are against all forms of democratic functioning or accountability. It is also interesting to see the ABVP student who resorted to a heinous act of spitting on respected Geelani is trying play another drama in sections of media that like Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, another ABVP goon, arrested in connection with the Malegaon blasts, that he doesn't belong to ABVP. Another false claim made by ABVP, which appeared in sections of newspapers is that the seminar was organized by outsiders. The University Community comprises a group of students and teachers of Delhi University who thought it is high time that we started discussing some of the burning issues that are threatening to incinerate the secular and democratic fabric of our society. It is only natural that some people who are interested in the topic would have decided to attend the seminar as is the tradition in all universities whether it is DU, JNU or Jamia Millia Islamia. Since DU has no policy to hold all the events inside closed doors, it is surprising that the DUSU President takes objection to the presence of some "outsiders". Perhaps for the likes of Nupur Sharma and ABVP and to the politics of communal fascism which she owes her affiliation, anyone who talks for the oppressed or incarcerated or anyone who dares to raise the voice against a highly patriarchal, oppressive, casteist, and communal Hindutva brigade is an "outsider". *University Community* *Contact Persons: Arjumand Ara, Natasha, Tripta Wahi, Shikha, Umar Khalid Harsh Bora, 9811855618, universitycommunity at gmail.com* -- University Community Students and Teachers of University of Delhi From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 22:00:31 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:00:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> This report first says, "The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani..." The later it reads, "They also said they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate." Now if the police has not "examined" the DVDs, how do they know that the DVD's "feature" SAR Geelani? The reporter doesn't seem to be aware of the paradox, and neither dooes Aditya Raj kaul who has posted this news item. The news item calls Geelani an accused when in fact he was acquitted and allowed again to teach at DU. But then, it's The Pioneer, whose editor is a Rajya Sabha MP from the BJP. best shivam On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* > > *VR Jayaraj | Kochi > The Daily Pioneer > > Link - > http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html > * > The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it had > recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the Parliament > attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated in the > SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, 2006. > > The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was prepared > for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, Kerala, > which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic > preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala Police > had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but > released them later after the alleged intervention of highly influential > personalities. > > Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of the > accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the court > that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had any > relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also said > they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted to the > North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. > > Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could have had > relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny > whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We will > come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say about > this. > > Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the case > of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining free > could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that accused > number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya > Pradesh in relation to blast cases. > > The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were found > during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they were > examining the disks. > > The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation into > the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer > Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, > respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of notices > to the duo. > > D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to five > of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement with > SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to prove > that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted to a > crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part of > the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations > against the terror network existing in Kerala. > > Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the Panayikkulam > camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody as > part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including those of > the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror squad > of the Kerala Police. > > Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, on > Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed Faizal, who > was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in Jammu & > Kashmir. > > The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief Judicial > Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November 21. > Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of Malayalee > militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces in > Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal had > taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:01:44 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:01:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811080814y2ecb3945j7324932db5a65623@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080717x28463f27u8cc135d3b2275fe7@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080730s62ca355fo57d81d3571a6f12e@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080814y2ecb3945j7324932db5a65623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811080831p1d8a8df1re94564538dd17687@mail.gmail.com> Bingo you go Shivam. 1. In a similar manner, you may go on saying and blaming ABVP, RIK etc. Do we care ? Or, do your allegations and consistent repetitions prove anything against us ? Nopes! 2. If he has a right to speak, we the students of Delhi University have a right to protest as well. We don't need any Shivam Vij's help in understanding how to go about doing things. Protest was peaceful, even we know when it turned violent. When SFI and AISA goons, who are expert in goondaism and physical assault attacked ABVP activists and even Nupur Sharma. An ABVP activist had serious injuries on hand and arm, which caused this massive reaction by ABVP. 3. Its not me alone who thinks he is a terrorist, ask a Congressi neta, Bajpaa neta, or just anyone on the street, you will get the same reply. Just enough evidence wasn't there, but that doesn't mean he is free and can do just anything. Even the judge said, 'there is high amount of suspicion on him (Geelani)', 'coz in one of the conversations, he was appreciative of the fact that parliament attack took place and told his brother while laughing that "Yi Karun Aus Zaroori" (This was most importantly to be done). Also, he was in touch with Shaukat and Afzal other accused in the Parliament Attack case. 4. 'Communally Charged' programs are not supposed to be organised in DU as per law. The content of the programme 'targeting Hindus' and even distribution of pamphlets which has similar content made things clear to us all. 'Hindu bashing' in a University won't be tolerated. 5. An Inquiry committee should be formed by the V-C, Proctor and even the area SHO, to find who really were the organisers of this 'communal propaganda' seminar. Action should be taken against whoever this 'University Community' named org belongs to. There was no permission taken as per the authorities. Shame on S.A.R. Geelani and his supporters. The SFI, AISA and the entire communist lobby has no support base in DU and hence get bus loads of hooligans and street urchins from Jamia and JNU to protest and create havoc in DU. Yesterday, they went from class to class disrupting studies of students all over the campus. The SFI and AISA goondas even tried to break into DUSU office and attack Nupur Sharma. Police prevented thankfully. And, the media as always remained silent....Expected. On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > > The right to free speech in the Indian Constitution is subject to > "reasonable restrictions". These RRs do not include allowing student > unions to prevent acquitted / accused persons from speaking in a > seminar. The Akhil Bhartiya Vidyarthi Parishad, Shri Aditya Raj Kaul > or Roots in Kashmir are private bodies or individuals and not > Constitutional authorities. You can call SAR Geelani a terrorist as > much as you want to but that does not make him a terrorist. > > Indeed, you have the right to think that he is a terrorist, put > forward evidence to that effect, protest against him or the organisers > of a conference that calls him to speak; campaign that he be hanged - > and he may in turn have the right to sue you for defamation. which the > courts may decide upon. > > However, to intimidate the speakers and organisers of a seminar, to > vandalise the seminar room, "damaging the windows, doors, chairs and > the microphone to disrupt the meeting"; for Nupur Sharma to lead the > mob in doing so and give statemnets like, "We will not let a terror > suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism" - these are clearly and > unambiguously violations of the right to free speech. The ABVP > "activists", and non-ABVP members who were part of the mob, should be > charged under appropriate sections of the Indian Penal Code. The ABVP > cannot become judge, jury and executioner and act with impunity. > > best > > shivam > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > True. So, we have a right to raise our voice and question; protest > against a > > terrorist S.A.R. Geelani, who the Indian masses believe was one of those > > involved with the Parliament Attack in some way. And, would continue to > > believe so till he is proven "not guilty" by the Police and as well the > > Courts. Remember he has been released, only on 'technical grounds". And, > the > > SC judge says that there still is high suspicion on this Geelani, but > since > > there is not sufficient 'legal proof', so he is released. > > > > Hope this makes things clearer. > > > > Hence, a reaction by DU students to a provocation of such a 'communally > > charged' seminar is expected till the time suspicion continues from all > > ends. > > > > Its quite unfortunate, that instead of being rightfully jailed, terrorist > > S.A.R. Geelani is paraded to such propaganda meetings and seminars by > self > > proclaimed 'liberalists' & so called 'intellectuals' only to instigate > > students against one another. > > > > A person who doesn't know the difference between 'break' and > 'broke'(refer > > Times Now & NDTV interview); do we expect him to understand the > difference > > between 'Fascism' and 'Democracy', and on what side of the table he > himself > > is. > > > > Hero's of Hate can't preach us secularism. > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > >> > >> Kshmendra Kaul is basically saying that as he enjoys his Rights, he > >> must therefore follow the Duties. However, the Constitution says that > >> the Duties are not mandatory or legally enforceable. They are in that > >> sense like the Directive Principles of State Policy - advisory in > >> nature. Denial of rights, however, can be challenged in the Supreme > >> Court. > >> > >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Rights,_Directive_Principles_and_Fundamental_Duties_of_India > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > >> > This post from Kshemendra Kaul imagines an interesting formulation of > >> > 'rights' under the Indian constitution. > >> > Do those who don't owe allegience to the Indian constitution have no > >> > rights under Indian law? > >> > Is the right to free spech in India limited only to those who accept > >> > the primacy of its Constitution? > >> > Let's flip the omlette: as a vistor to the US, am I expected to zip my > >> > lips and be silent about the criminal record of the US Government, and > >> > should I be expected to swear by the US constitution while I am there? > >> > Tough, politically schizophrenic world imagined here... > >> > Sanjay Kak > >> > > >> > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul < > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >> >> Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been > >> accused of is not within my competence to comment on. > >> >> > >> >> As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' > by > >> due processes of Law. > >> >> > >> >> Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted > >> 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might > help > >> a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would > rather > >> have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully > >> declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted > >> 'prosecution'. > >> >> > >> >> The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the > Constitution > >> of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. > >> >> > >> >> As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' > citizen > >> of India, including the "Right of Speech". > >> >> > >> >> In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, > >> while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India > >> accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the > primacy > >> of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which > >> includes the State of J&K. > >> >> > >> >> Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > >> >> > >> >> From: Shivam V > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani > is > >> star speaker > >> >> To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" > >> >> Cc: "sarai list" > >> >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM > >> >> > >> >> You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan > Times: > >> >> http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > >> >> > >> >> It has pictures of the spitting incident. > >> >> > >> >> It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > >> >> right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > >> >> Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > >> >> convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > >> >> speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to > time). > >> >> > >> >> There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, > Pawan > >> >> Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > >> >> their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by > the > >> >> list administrator. > >> >> > >> >> best > >> >> shivam > >> >> > >> >> o o o > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> November 4, 2006 > >> >> HT Correspondent > >> >> New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > >> >> First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > >> >> Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > >> >> > >> >> Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > >> >> > >> >> A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > >> >> Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > >> >> The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > >> >> presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > >> >> at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > >> >> > >> >> Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by > Delhi > >> >> University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > >> >> damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > >> >> 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', > disrupting > >> >> the programme briefly. > >> >> > >> >> The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > >> >> North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > >> >> chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > >> >> > >> >> "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > >> >> the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > >> >> approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court > refused," > >> >> said Sharma. > >> >> > >> >> The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > >> >> detained the activists. > >> >> > >> >> The University Community –– an independent group of students and > >> >> teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > >> >> violence. > >> >> > >> >> "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too > sided > >> >> with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > >> >> guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > >> >> student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > >> >> > >> >> To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > >> >> Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > >> >> > >> >> In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was > witnessing > >> >> a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > >> >> increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > >> >> mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > >> >> Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the > statement > >> >> said. > >> >> > >> >> Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > >> >> debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise > a > >> >> community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > >> >> meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > >> >> said. > >> >> > >> >> DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant > students. > >> >> "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > >> >> Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > >> >> > >> >> Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > >> >> vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > >> >> protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > >> >> History (Honours) syllabus. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > >> >> > >> >> (c) Copyright 2007 HindustanTimes > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, > >> every > >> >>> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The > Pioneer > >> >>> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" > >> >> ("interactive > >> >>> session" where venom was spewed on the > >> >>> > >> >>> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes > of > >> >>> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew > he > >> is > >> >>> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified > >> >> manner > >> >>> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. > Well, > >> >> was > >> >>> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the > reporter; > >> he > >> >>> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the > >> >>> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must > >> >> write a > >> >>> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that > case > >> >> you > >> >>> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all > >> >>> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after > taking > >> >>> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who > didn't > >> >>> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who > didn't > >> >> let > >> >>> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other > >> reports > >> >>> on vandalism in DU. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the > court > >> did > >> >>> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for > a > >> >>> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall > continue—what > >> >> did > >> >>> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked > >> >> the > >> >>> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the > >> >> "nationalist > >> >>> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for > >> >> Terrorism will > >> >>> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true > about > >> a > >> >>> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon > me, > >> I > >> >> got > >> >>> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their > >> >>> involvement in Malegaon. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from > >> >>> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at > by > >> a > >> >>> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) > to > >> >>> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, > Indian > >> >>> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal > is > >> >>> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a > >> >> Kashmiri > >> >>> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right > >> abuse > >> >>> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that > >> okay > >> >> if > >> >>> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' > >> >> a > >> >>> terrorist when is been acquitted? > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> (*To be continued…………*) > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < > >> >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against > Hindus.. > >> >>>> But Hindus.. > >> >>>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a > >> >>>> terrorist... > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament > attack > >> >> and > >> >>>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher > and > >> >> greater > >> >>>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put > >> >> 'Tika' on > >> >>>> their forehead... > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call > >> >> yourself > >> >>>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ________________________________ > >> >>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >>>> To: sarai list > >> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM > >> >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; > >> >> Geelani is star > >> >>>> speaker > >> >>>> > >> >>>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker > >> >>>> > >> >>>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi > >> >>>> > >> >>>> The Daily Pioneer > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Link - > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> > http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html > >> >>>> * > >> >>>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in > >> >> India, take on > >> >>>> ABVP 'goons'* > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday > >> >>>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed > >> >> on the > >> >>>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known > >> >> anti-national — SAR > >> >>>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was > >> >> hero-worshipped. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the > Arts > >> >>>> Faculty > >> >>>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was > stage-managed > >> >> by > >> >>>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied > in > >> >> the > >> >>>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. > >> >> Geelani > >> >>>> was > >> >>>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and > >> >> Reality', > >> >>>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University > Community. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of > >> >> national > >> >>>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and > >> >> letting > >> >>>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the > >> >> Government > >> >>>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by > Hindu > >> >>>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet > me > >> >> later > >> >>>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in > >> >> the 2003 > >> >>>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme > Court. > >> >> He > >> >>>> said > >> >>>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of > >> >> democracy in > >> >>>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of > >> >> corruption," he > >> >>>> said. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different > departments > >> >> of DU, > >> >>>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long > >> >> Live" and > >> >>>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two > >> >> working journalists > >> >>>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia > >> >> Islamia, > >> >>>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the > >> >> Students' > >> >>>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) > activists > >> >>>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, > >> >>>> "Inquilab > >> >>>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this > >> >>>> fascism." > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh > Thakur, > >> >> was > >> >>>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said > a > >> >>>> teacher > >> >>>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising > >> >> 'a talk'. > >> >>>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and > that > >> >>>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor > Gurmeet > >> >> Singh > >> >>>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their > >> >> talk in > >> >>>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. > >> >> The meeting, > >> >>>> however, went on. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the > seminar > >> >> room > >> >>>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande > >> >> Mataram'. An activist > >> >>>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying > >> >> 'shame, > >> >>>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, > >> >> chairs and the > >> >>>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued > >> >> despite > >> >>>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. > >> >>>> _________________________________________ > >> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>>> List archive: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _________________________________________ > >> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>>> List archive: > >> >>> _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> mail at shivamvij dot com > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > >> >> the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> mail at shivamvij dot com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 22:04:25 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:04:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press statement from University Community In-Reply-To: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080834l24168b75lad9fc914402fd979@mail.gmail.com> > The university administration was asked to file an FIR against the culprits, and > to constitute a time-bound enquiry into the incident. If no FIR has yet been filed against the ABVP, it is, to say the least, shocking. On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:55 PM, hany babu wrote: > Press Statement > > > > *9th November 2008.* > > > > A protest march against the ABVP's fascist assault and vandalism was held by > the University Community on the on 7th November, starting from Vivekananda > statue, Arts Faculty of Delhi University. A large number of students and > teachers from Delhi University were joined by JNU and Jamia students, and a > march of more than 600 people traversed all colleges in the North Campus > raising slogans. > > The march also stopped in front of DUSU office for around five minutes, > raising slogans against ABVP as well as Nupur Sharma, the President and her > associates who attacked the seminar on 6th November. The march proceeded to > the Vice Chancellor's office, where a protest meeting was held. Students and > teachers in one voice spoke against ABVP's communal-fascist politics, the > inaction of the Delhi Police as well as the administration's attempt to curb > the rights of speech and expression. > > A delegation of students and teachers, which also included the > representatives of University Community, the organizers of the public > meeting of the 6th November, met the DU administration and demanded > immediate and strict action against the ABVP lumpens who were responsible > for full-scale vandalism, physical assault and inciting communal frenzy. The > university administration was asked to file an FIR against the culprits, and > to constitute a time-bound enquiry into the incident. > > The ABVP and its masters, BJP, have however continued to justify their > action. They, including Nupur Sharma have been giving communally charged > statements in the media targeting Prof. SAR Geelani in particular and the > university community in general. The ABVP has been spreading completely > baseless allegations and are hounding the organizers of the public meeting > and the members of the group, University Community. Yesterday the ABVP tried > filed a false case alleging that four members of the group tried to attack > the DUSU office. The white lie however was for all to see, the march was > conducted peacefully and no such incident as alleged by the ABVP has ever > occurred. The members of media were present, and a large contingent Delhi > Police personnel was deployed which accompanied the whole course of the > protest march, and they would have reported about it had such incident > occurred. A number senior teachers of the university also were present, > who marched along with the students. It is to be noted that even before the > march reached in front of the DUSU office, the gates of the office were > closed. After their fascist politics getting successfully repelled and > thoroughly exposed, the ABVP and its masters in RSS and BJP are now > resorting to spreading rumours and baseless allegations in order to save > their face. We condemn such fascist tactics of the ABVP and the * > sangh-parivar* to intimidate and repress the democratic voices of the > campus. > > The University Community takes strong objection to the false and dangerous > propaganda from a person holding a responsible office like the President of > the student union the largest Central University of the country. Moreover, > by calling a teacher of the university a terrorist, ABVP and Ms Nupur Sharma > has insulted the entire student of the university. We demand an > unconditional apology from Ms Nupur Sharma for her objectionable remark. By > planning and organising the attack under her leadership personally (she > personally led the vulgar attack on the spot) she made an aborted attempt to > disrupt a meeting which was duly publicised and held at a venue with the > permission of the University Authorities. ABVP is also challenging all the > democratic structures of the university. In fact, this very act goes a long > way to prove the concerns expressed by the organizers about the "increasing > onslaught of the right- wing Hindu communal-fascist forces" in our country. > This act and the brazen manner in which the DUSU President has carried this > act shows us that the threat looms much larger than we can envisage. It is > not only states like Gujarat or Orissa that are witness to this onslaught, > even institutions of higher learning in the national capital are not free > from the clutches of Hindu communal fascist goons. > > > Ms Nupur Sharma has also gone on record saying that she herself would have > spat on SAR Geelani. This also shows that the DUSU President has no respect > for the law or the judicial system of the country, let alone codes of > civilized conduct in public places. We should all think whether such a > person has any right to hold a responsible office. It is the typical > duplicity of politics of the Hindutva brigade to take recourse to the law > when it is convenient for their divisive politics and to break it to run > their writ as they are against all forms of democratic functioning or > accountability. > > > It is also interesting to see the ABVP student who resorted to a heinous act > of spitting on respected Geelani is trying play another drama in sections of > media that like Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, another ABVP goon, arrested in > connection with the Malegaon blasts, that he doesn't belong to ABVP. Another > false claim made by ABVP, which appeared in sections of newspapers is that > the seminar was organized by outsiders. The University Community comprises a > group of students and teachers of Delhi University who thought it is high > time that we started discussing some of the burning issues that are > threatening to incinerate the secular and democratic fabric of our society. > It is only natural that some people who are interested in the topic would > have decided to attend the seminar as is the tradition in all universities > whether it is DU, JNU or Jamia Millia Islamia. Since DU has no policy to > hold all the events inside closed doors, it is surprising that the DUSU > President takes objection to the presence of some "outsiders". Perhaps for > the likes of Nupur Sharma and ABVP and to the politics of communal fascism > which she owes her affiliation, anyone who talks for the oppressed or > incarcerated or anyone who dares to raise the voice against a highly > patriarchal, oppressive, casteist, and communal Hindutva brigade is an > "outsider". > > > > *University Community* > > *Contact Persons: Arjumand Ara, Natasha, Tripta Wahi, Shikha, Umar Khalid > Harsh Bora, 9811855618, universitycommunity at gmail.com* > > > > > -- > University Community > > Students and Teachers of University of Delhi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:19:17 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:19:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press statement from University Community In-Reply-To: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811080849y5671d695r1f559aa6e2f6ef09@mail.gmail.com> lol.... Complete Propaganda.. Does anyone even know who this 'University Community' organisation belongs to ? Faceless charecters with nil knowledge on this issue. 1. They entioned Gujarat and Orissa, but forgot the plight of 'Hindu's in Kashmir. 2. They believe these are 'Hindu Fascists & Terrorists'. What about 'Islamic Terrorists & Fundamentalists'. Or, do they support 'Islamic tirade' in India and across the globe. ??? 3. S.A.R. Geelani is no teacher, no authority on terrorism, no leader and not even a person of an iota of respect. He is a bloody terrorist. Why was he invited then ??? 4. No permission was taken by the organisers. So says the SHO, V-C and the Proctor. Whom do we believe ? SFI Goondas or the Police. 5. DUSU Office was tried to attacked, this I saw from my own eyed. I need not write more. Police prevented and directed eberyone to leave. 6. During the protest at the Geelani seminar, violence broke when SFI & AISA goondas started clashing and beating ABVP activists. These communists can go to any extent to even kill a person. An ABVP activist was seriously injured, which made matters worse. Atleast 4-5 JNU hooligans which includes girls were involved in an attack on ABVP activists. 7. DUSU President rightly saud that 'She would also spit at him'. The entire country does on a Terrorist. He is no differenet. He should be jailed atleast. 8. SFI, AISA and few of those left community lobby in DU are frustated with the fact that they have no major support lft in DU. And, hence are stuck on cheap publicty acts. Geelani attracts media and provokes students, hence they though he would be the best choice. 9. Its quite unfortunate how this 'community lobby' is so dead media hungry and frustration shoes on their faces. Poor souls they are. DU won't tolerate their propaganda be it anywhere. 10. The act of spiiting as reported by many newspapers today has been done by some Vinay Kumar Singh of Shri Ram Sena. He says he has no role with RSS and ABVP, but dares Geelani. Down with Communal Propaganda organisations like SFI & AISA. Ban Them. Period. On 11/8/08, hany babu wrote: > > Press Statement > > > > *9th November 2008.* > > > > A protest march against the ABVP's fascist assault and vandalism was held > by > the University Community on the on 7th November, starting from Vivekananda > statue, Arts Faculty of Delhi University. A large number of students and > teachers from Delhi University were joined by JNU and Jamia students, and a > march of more than 600 people traversed all colleges in the North Campus > raising slogans. > > The march also stopped in front of DUSU office for around five minutes, > raising slogans against ABVP as well as Nupur Sharma, the President and her > associates who attacked the seminar on 6th November. The march proceeded to > the Vice Chancellor's office, where a protest meeting was held. Students > and > teachers in one voice spoke against ABVP's communal-fascist politics, the > inaction of the Delhi Police as well as the administration's attempt to > curb > the rights of speech and expression. > > A delegation of students and teachers, which also included the > representatives of University Community, the organizers of the public > meeting of the 6th November, met the DU administration and demanded > immediate and strict action against the ABVP lumpens who were responsible > for full-scale vandalism, physical assault and inciting communal frenzy. > The > university administration was asked to file an FIR against the culprits, > and > to constitute a time-bound enquiry into the incident. > > The ABVP and its masters, BJP, have however continued to justify their > action. They, including Nupur Sharma have been giving communally charged > statements in the media targeting Prof. SAR Geelani in particular and the > university community in general. The ABVP has been spreading completely > baseless allegations and are hounding the organizers of the public meeting > and the members of the group, University Community. Yesterday the ABVP > tried > filed a false case alleging that four members of the group tried to attack > the DUSU office. The white lie however was for all to see, the march was > conducted peacefully and no such incident as alleged by the ABVP has ever > occurred. The members of media were present, and a large contingent Delhi > Police personnel was deployed which accompanied the whole course of the > protest march, and they would have reported about it had such incident > occurred. A number senior teachers of the university also were present, > who marched along with the students. It is to be noted that even before > the > march reached in front of the DUSU office, the gates of the office were > closed. After their fascist politics getting successfully repelled and > thoroughly exposed, the ABVP and its masters in RSS and BJP are now > resorting to spreading rumours and baseless allegations in order to save > their face. We condemn such fascist tactics of the ABVP and the * > sangh-parivar* to intimidate and repress the democratic voices of the > campus. > > The University Community takes strong objection to the false and dangerous > propaganda from a person holding a responsible office like the President of > the student union the largest Central University of the country. Moreover, > by calling a teacher of the university a terrorist, ABVP and Ms Nupur > Sharma > has insulted the entire student of the university. We demand an > unconditional apology from Ms Nupur Sharma for her objectionable remark. By > planning and organising the attack under her leadership personally (she > personally led the vulgar attack on the spot) she made an aborted attempt > to > disrupt a meeting which was duly publicised and held at a venue with the > permission of the University Authorities. ABVP is also challenging all the > democratic structures of the university. In fact, this very act goes a long > way to prove the concerns expressed by the organizers about the "increasing > onslaught of the right- wing Hindu communal-fascist forces" in our country. > This act and the brazen manner in which the DUSU President has carried this > act shows us that the threat looms much larger than we can envisage. It is > not only states like Gujarat or Orissa that are witness to this onslaught, > even institutions of higher learning in the national capital are not free > from the clutches of Hindu communal fascist goons. > > > Ms Nupur Sharma has also gone on record saying that she herself would have > spat on SAR Geelani. This also shows that the DUSU President has no respect > for the law or the judicial system of the country, let alone codes of > civilized conduct in public places. We should all think whether such a > person has any right to hold a responsible office. It is the typical > duplicity of politics of the Hindutva brigade to take recourse to the law > when it is convenient for their divisive politics and to break it to run > their writ as they are against all forms of democratic functioning or > accountability. > > > It is also interesting to see the ABVP student who resorted to a heinous > act > of spitting on respected Geelani is trying play another drama in sections > of > media that like Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, another ABVP goon, arrested in > connection with the Malegaon blasts, that he doesn't belong to ABVP. > Another > false claim made by ABVP, which appeared in sections of newspapers is that > the seminar was organized by outsiders. The University Community comprises > a > group of students and teachers of Delhi University who thought it is high > time that we started discussing some of the burning issues that are > threatening to incinerate the secular and democratic fabric of our society. > It is only natural that some people who are interested in the topic would > have decided to attend the seminar as is the tradition in all universities > whether it is DU, JNU or Jamia Millia Islamia. Since DU has no policy to > hold all the events inside closed doors, it is surprising that the DUSU > President takes objection to the presence of some "outsiders". Perhaps for > the likes of Nupur Sharma and ABVP and to the politics of communal fascism > which she owes her affiliation, anyone who talks for the oppressed or > incarcerated or anyone who dares to raise the voice against a highly > patriarchal, oppressive, casteist, and communal Hindutva brigade is an > "outsider". > > > > *University Community* > > *Contact Persons: Arjumand Ara, Natasha, Tripta Wahi, Shikha, Umar Khalid > Harsh Bora, 9811855618, universitycommunity at gmail.com* > > > > > -- > University Community > > Students and Teachers of University of Delhi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:21:51 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:21:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press statement from University Community In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080849y5671d695r1f559aa6e2f6ef09@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080849y5671d695r1f559aa6e2f6ef09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811080851j7a09e9ccl1088c4bcc213017c@mail.gmail.com> Hope Police has filed a case against the illegal organisers 'University Community' and the hooligans of SFI & AISA who belonged mainly to the JNU for spreading 'communally charged' literature and even organising such a seminar of communal propaganda. If not, then its indeed unfortunate. On 11/8/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > lol.... Complete Propaganda.. > > Does anyone even know who this 'University Community' organisation belongs > to ? Faceless charecters with nil knowledge on this issue. > > 1. They entioned Gujarat and Orissa, but forgot the plight of 'Hindu's in > Kashmir. > > 2. They believe these are 'Hindu Fascists & Terrorists'. What about > 'Islamic Terrorists & Fundamentalists'. Or, do they support 'Islamic tirade' > in India and across the globe. ??? > > 3. S.A.R. Geelani is no teacher, no authority on terrorism, no leader and > not even a person of an iota of respect. He is a bloody terrorist. Why was > he invited then ??? > > 4. No permission was taken by the organisers. So says the SHO, V-C and the > Proctor. Whom do we believe ? SFI Goondas or the Police. > > 5. DUSU Office was tried to attacked, this I saw from my own eyed. I need > not write more. Police prevented and directed eberyone to leave. > > 6. During the protest at the Geelani seminar, violence broke when SFI & > AISA goondas started clashing and beating ABVP activists. These communists > can go to any extent to even kill a person. An ABVP activist was seriously > injured, which made matters worse. Atleast 4-5 JNU hooligans which includes > girls were involved in an attack on ABVP activists. > > 7. DUSU President rightly saud that 'She would also spit at him'. The > entire country does on a Terrorist. He is no differenet. He should be jailed > atleast. > > 8. SFI, AISA and few of those left community lobby in DU are frustated with > the fact that they have no major support lft in DU. And, hence are stuck on > cheap publicty acts. Geelani attracts media and provokes students, hence > they though he would be the best choice. > > 9. Its quite unfortunate how this 'community lobby' is so dead media hungry > and frustration shoes on their faces. Poor souls they are. DU won't tolerate > their propaganda be it anywhere. > > 10. The act of spiiting as reported by many newspapers today has been done > by some Vinay Kumar Singh of Shri Ram Sena. He says he has no role with RSS > and ABVP, but dares Geelani. > > Down with Communal Propaganda organisations like SFI & AISA. Ban Them. > > Period. > > On 11/8/08, hany babu wrote: >> >> Press Statement >> >> >> >> *9th November 2008.* >> >> >> >> A protest march against the ABVP's fascist assault and vandalism was held >> by >> the University Community on the on 7th November, starting from Vivekananda >> statue, Arts Faculty of Delhi University. A large number of students and >> teachers from Delhi University were joined by JNU and Jamia students, and >> a >> march of more than 600 people traversed all colleges in the North Campus >> raising slogans. >> >> The march also stopped in front of DUSU office for around five minutes, >> raising slogans against ABVP as well as Nupur Sharma, the President and >> her >> associates who attacked the seminar on 6th November. The march proceeded >> to >> the Vice Chancellor's office, where a protest meeting was held. Students >> and >> teachers in one voice spoke against ABVP's communal-fascist politics, the >> inaction of the Delhi Police as well as the administration's attempt to >> curb >> the rights of speech and expression. >> >> A delegation of students and teachers, which also included the >> representatives of University Community, the organizers of the public >> meeting of the 6th November, met the DU administration and demanded >> immediate and strict action against the ABVP lumpens who were responsible >> for full-scale vandalism, physical assault and inciting communal frenzy. >> The >> university administration was asked to file an FIR against the culprits, >> and >> to constitute a time-bound enquiry into the incident. >> >> The ABVP and its masters, BJP, have however continued to justify their >> action. They, including Nupur Sharma have been giving communally charged >> statements in the media targeting Prof. SAR Geelani in particular and the >> university community in general. The ABVP has been spreading completely >> baseless allegations and are hounding the organizers of the public meeting >> and the members of the group, University Community. Yesterday the ABVP >> tried >> filed a false case alleging that four members of the group tried to attack >> the DUSU office. The white lie however was for all to see, the march was >> conducted peacefully and no such incident as alleged by the ABVP has ever >> occurred. The members of media were present, and a large contingent Delhi >> Police personnel was deployed which accompanied the whole course of the >> protest march, and they would have reported about it had such incident >> occurred. A number senior teachers of the university also were present, >> who marched along with the students. It is to be noted that even before >> the >> march reached in front of the DUSU office, the gates of the office were >> closed. After their fascist politics getting successfully repelled and >> thoroughly exposed, the ABVP and its masters in RSS and BJP are now >> resorting to spreading rumours and baseless allegations in order to save >> their face. We condemn such fascist tactics of the ABVP and the * >> sangh-parivar* to intimidate and repress the democratic voices of the >> campus. >> >> The University Community takes strong objection to the false and dangerous >> propaganda from a person holding a responsible office like the President >> of >> the student union the largest Central University of the country. Moreover, >> by calling a teacher of the university a terrorist, ABVP and Ms Nupur >> Sharma >> has insulted the entire student of the university. We demand an >> unconditional apology from Ms Nupur Sharma for her objectionable remark. >> By >> planning and organising the attack under her leadership personally (she >> personally led the vulgar attack on the spot) she made an aborted attempt >> to >> disrupt a meeting which was duly publicised and held at a venue with the >> permission of the University Authorities. ABVP is also challenging all the >> democratic structures of the university. In fact, this very act goes a >> long >> way to prove the concerns expressed by the organizers about the >> "increasing >> onslaught of the right- wing Hindu communal-fascist forces" in our >> country. >> This act and the brazen manner in which the DUSU President has carried >> this >> act shows us that the threat looms much larger than we can envisage. It is >> not only states like Gujarat or Orissa that are witness to this onslaught, >> even institutions of higher learning in the national capital are not free >> from the clutches of Hindu communal fascist goons. >> >> >> Ms Nupur Sharma has also gone on record saying that she herself would have >> spat on SAR Geelani. This also shows that the DUSU President has no >> respect >> for the law or the judicial system of the country, let alone codes of >> civilized conduct in public places. We should all think whether such a >> person has any right to hold a responsible office. It is the typical >> duplicity of politics of the Hindutva brigade to take recourse to the law >> when it is convenient for their divisive politics and to break it to run >> their writ as they are against all forms of democratic functioning or >> accountability. >> >> >> It is also interesting to see the ABVP student who resorted to a heinous >> act >> of spitting on respected Geelani is trying play another drama in sections >> of >> media that like Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, another ABVP goon, arrested >> in >> connection with the Malegaon blasts, that he doesn't belong to ABVP. >> Another >> false claim made by ABVP, which appeared in sections of newspapers is that >> the seminar was organized by outsiders. The University Community comprises >> a >> group of students and teachers of Delhi University who thought it is high >> time that we started discussing some of the burning issues that are >> threatening to incinerate the secular and democratic fabric of our >> society. >> It is only natural that some people who are interested in the topic would >> have decided to attend the seminar as is the tradition in all universities >> whether it is DU, JNU or Jamia Millia Islamia. Since DU has no policy to >> hold all the events inside closed doors, it is surprising that the DUSU >> President takes objection to the presence of some "outsiders". Perhaps for >> the likes of Nupur Sharma and ABVP and to the politics of communal >> fascism >> which she owes her affiliation, anyone who talks for the oppressed or >> incarcerated or anyone who dares to raise the voice against a highly >> patriarchal, oppressive, casteist, and communal Hindutva brigade is an >> "outsider". >> >> >> >> *University Community* >> >> *Contact Persons: Arjumand Ara, Natasha, Tripta Wahi, Shikha, Umar Khalid >> Harsh Bora, 9811855618, universitycommunity at gmail.com* >> >> >> >> >> -- >> University Community >> >> Students and Teachers of University of Delhi >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:27:01 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:27:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, Your eye sight is testing our patience. Isn't it time you go for a check ? Tomrw is Sunday. Help yourself. The article in latter part says "examine in detail the DVDs". This means studying the DVD minutely and taking help from experts, and even cross-check if required etc etc. Even a small kid would make this out. I know for sure you are not a small kid. Anyways, you are said to be a 'journalist;. You have a right to question always. I'm always there to help you, don't worry. :-) On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > > This report first says, "The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the > Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani..." > The later it reads, "They also said they were yet to examine in detail > > the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as > per the instructions of the Magistrate." > > > Now if the police has not "examined" the DVDs, how do they know that > the DVD's "feature" SAR Geelani? > > The reporter doesn't seem to be aware of the paradox, and neither > dooes Aditya Raj kaul who has posted this news item. The news item > calls Geelani an accused when in fact he was acquitted and allowed > again to teach at DU. > > But then, it's The Pioneer, whose editor is a Rajya Sabha MP from the BJP. > > best > shivam > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* > > > > > *VR Jayaraj | Kochi > > The Daily Pioneer > > > > Link - > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html > > * > > The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it > had > > recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the > Parliament > > attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated in > the > > SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, 2006. > > > > The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was > prepared > > for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, Kerala, > > which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic > > preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala > Police > > had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but > > released them later after the alleged intervention of highly influential > > personalities. > > > > Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of the > > accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the court > > that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had any > > relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also said > > they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted to > the > > North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. > > > > Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could have > had > > relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny > > whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We will > > come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say about > > this. > > > > Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the > case > > of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining free > > could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that > accused > > number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya > > Pradesh in relation to blast cases. > > > > The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were found > > during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they were > > examining the disks. > > > > The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation into > > the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer > > Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, > > respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of > notices > > to the duo. > > > > D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to > five > > of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement > with > > SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to > prove > > that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted to a > > crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part of > > the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations > > against the terror network existing in Kerala. > > > > Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the > Panayikkulam > > camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody as > > part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including those > of > > the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror > squad > > of the Kerala Police. > > > > Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, on > > Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed Faizal, > who > > was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in Jammu > & > > Kashmir. > > > > The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief > Judicial > > Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November 21. > > Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of Malayalee > > militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces in > > Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal had > > taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:31:12 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:31:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Lamhaa' unit to leave Kashmir as mob stalls Bipasha's shoot Message-ID: <6353c690811080901q526cc746ub6aab1287f326296@mail.gmail.com> 'Lamhaa' unit to leave Kashmir as mob stalls Bipasha's shoot Sat, Nov 8 04:48 PM Mumbai, Nov 8 (IANS) Bollywood producer Bunty Walia, who had hoped to shoot his film 'Lamhaa' in the Kashmir valley, has decided to pull out his crew from the region after a mob disrupted the shooting of a scene involving Bipasha Basu. On Wednesday, a mob surrounded the unit filming a scene with Bipasha, who plays the role of a Kashmiri girl. They wanted the film's shooting to be stopped. 'It wasn't a pleasant experience for Bipasha to suddenly see a mob of locals descending on the unit,' Walia told IANS on phone from Srinagar. 'We were shooting on the CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) compound, which was supposed to pass off as a street in Kashmir because there are a lot of Kashmiri Pundit houses in the compound. 'One sequence had a band of Kashmiri women led by Bipasha moving towards one of the houses in a van. When the local Kashmiri men saw so many women in burqas, they wanted to know what was happening. They got increasingly agitated,' he said. 'We realised that when it comes to mobs nothing works...not the police, not the CRPF. We decided we had no choice but to quickly pack up for the day for the sake of the unit's security,' Walia added. Last week, Kashmiri fruit traders had intervened to stop the shooting of the film at the fruit market as they feared the movie might portray them in a bad light. On Monday, students of a college in south Kashmir's Anantnag district took exception to some of the portions being shot inside the campus premises and the principal then asked the film crew to withdraw. 'I realised quite early in our schedule that shooting the entire film in Kashmir would be impossible. The minute the locals saw a 150-strong unit in Srinagar they got suspicious and excited. There have been recent film units in Kashmir but none in Srinagar before 'Lamhaa'. 'They are apprehensive about the guns. But the gun culture has been a part of Kashmir for years. I was not showing anything unreal. This is the real Kashmir. But unfortunately their reality in a film is not acceptable to the locals,' Walia said. After Wednesday's disruption, director Rahul Dholakia called a press conference in Srinagar to explain that 'Lamhaa' wasn't projecting the Kashmir valley incorrectly. 'Rahul was very upset about the disruption. He asked the locals not to become a mob,' Walia said. 'Why did the Jammu and Kashmir government promise us all cooperation and protection? I'm anxious and irritated. I'm losing a lot of money because of the disruptions. I can't shoot beyond Nov 21. I don't have my stars' dates beyond that. The light starts fading at 4.30 p.m. I'm working against all odds. We feel pushed against the wall,' he added. Now almost 80 percent of 'Lamhaa' will be shot in Film City in Mumbai. 'We've rescheduled. We'll shoot vital scenes with our stars as fast as possible and quickly move out of Kashmir. My entire film was to be shot in Kashmir for 60 days. Now we can only shoot in Kashmir for 20 days. The rest of the film will be shot on a set erected at Film City (Mumbai),' Walia said. The set for 'Lamhaa' will be constructed by Wasiq Khan. 'He's done other Kashmiri films like 'Tahaan' and 'Yahaan'. We're shopping for Kashmiri artefacts and furniture right now. We hope to create an authentic Kashmir in Mumbai,' Walia said. 'The administration in Kashmir was cooperative. The local people were hostile. They misinterpret anything we shoot. I'm not going to explain every shot and action to the mobs. Sadly I've to announce that the dream of Kashmir being a paradise for film units remains just a dream.' From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:36:34 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:36:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811080906wabe6aacxf816a44b47378025@mail.gmail.com> Right. And having a DVD proves what? This is the same absurd and idiotic logic that the prosecution employed to claim that SIMI is a terrorist outfit- namely that they had "dangerous" books such as Khalil Gibran's The Prophet and Persian poetry. Where are your brains Aditya? Will they ever return from the long holiday they are on? On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Shivam, Your eye sight is testing our patience. Isn't it time you go for a > check ? Tomrw is Sunday. Help yourself. > > The article in latter part says "examine in detail the DVDs". This means > studying the DVD minutely and taking help from experts, and even cross-check > if required etc etc. > > Even a small kid would make this out. I know for sure you are not a small > kid. > > Anyways, you are said to be a 'journalist;. You have a right to question > always. I'm always there to help you, don't worry. :-) > > On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: >> >> This report first says, "The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the >> Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani..." >> The later it reads, "They also said they were yet to examine in detail >> >> the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as >> per the instructions of the Magistrate." >> >> >> Now if the police has not "examined" the DVDs, how do they know that >> the DVD's "feature" SAR Geelani? >> >> The reporter doesn't seem to be aware of the paradox, and neither >> dooes Aditya Raj kaul who has posted this news item. The news item >> calls Geelani an accused when in fact he was acquitted and allowed >> again to teach at DU. >> >> But then, it's The Pioneer, whose editor is a Rajya Sabha MP from the BJP. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* >> >> > >> > *VR Jayaraj | Kochi >> > The Daily Pioneer >> > >> > Link - >> > >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html >> > * >> > The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it >> had >> > recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the >> Parliament >> > attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated in >> the >> > SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, 2006. >> > >> > The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was >> prepared >> > for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, Kerala, >> > which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic >> > preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala >> Police >> > had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but >> > released them later after the alleged intervention of highly influential >> > personalities. >> > >> > Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of the >> > accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the court >> > that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had any >> > relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also said >> > they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted to >> the >> > North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. >> > >> > Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could have >> had >> > relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny >> > whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We will >> > come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say about >> > this. >> > >> > Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the >> case >> > of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining free >> > could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that >> accused >> > number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya >> > Pradesh in relation to blast cases. >> > >> > The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were found >> > during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they were >> > examining the disks. >> > >> > The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation into >> > the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer >> > Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, >> > respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of >> notices >> > to the duo. >> > >> > D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to >> five >> > of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement >> with >> > SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to >> prove >> > that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted to a >> > crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part of >> > the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations >> > against the terror network existing in Kerala. >> > >> > Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the >> Panayikkulam >> > camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody as >> > part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including those >> of >> > the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror >> squad >> > of the Kerala Police. >> > >> > Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, on >> > Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed Faizal, >> who >> > was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in Jammu >> & >> > Kashmir. >> > >> > The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief >> Judicial >> > Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November 21. >> > Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of Malayalee >> > militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces in >> > Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal had >> > taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mail at shivamvij dot com >> > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:41:14 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:41:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811080906wabe6aacxf816a44b47378025@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811080906wabe6aacxf816a44b47378025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811080911s19e0c67do6caa576707c4fc92@mail.gmail.com> Only time will tell, what this proves. Till then you can share my brain to think, for a change. I know for sure, you have sold your's to the pseudo-secular lobby at a very cheap rate. Not done ahaan ??!!?? Brainless kids.. :P On 11/8/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Right. And having a DVD proves what? This is the same absurd and > idiotic logic that the prosecution employed to claim that SIMI is a > terrorist outfit- namely that they had "dangerous" books such as > Khalil Gibran's The Prophet and Persian poetry. Where are your brains > Aditya? Will they ever return from the long holiday they are on? > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > Shivam, Your eye sight is testing our patience. Isn't it time you go for > a > > check ? Tomrw is Sunday. Help yourself. > > > > The article in latter part says "examine in detail the DVDs". This means > > studying the DVD minutely and taking help from experts, and even > cross-check > > if required etc etc. > > > > Even a small kid would make this out. I know for sure you are not a small > > kid. > > > > Anyways, you are said to be a 'journalist;. You have a right to question > > always. I'm always there to help you, don't worry. :-) > > > > On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > >> > >> This report first says, "The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the > >> Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani..." > >> The later it reads, "They also said they were yet to examine in detail > >> > >> the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as > >> per the instructions of the Magistrate." > >> > >> > >> Now if the police has not "examined" the DVDs, how do they know that > >> the DVD's "feature" SAR Geelani? > >> > >> The reporter doesn't seem to be aware of the paradox, and neither > >> dooes Aditya Raj kaul who has posted this news item. The news item > >> calls Geelani an accused when in fact he was acquitted and allowed > >> again to teach at DU. > >> > >> But then, it's The Pioneer, whose editor is a Rajya Sabha MP from the > BJP. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* > >> > >> > > >> > *VR Jayaraj | Kochi > >> > The Daily Pioneer > >> > > >> > Link - > >> > > >> > http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html > >> > * > >> > The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it > >> had > >> > recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the > >> Parliament > >> > attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated > in > >> the > >> > SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, > 2006. > >> > > >> > The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was > >> prepared > >> > for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, > Kerala, > >> > which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic > >> > preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala > >> Police > >> > had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but > >> > released them later after the alleged intervention of highly > influential > >> > personalities. > >> > > >> > Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of > the > >> > accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the > court > >> > that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had > any > >> > relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also > said > >> > they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted > to > >> the > >> > North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. > >> > > >> > Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could > have > >> had > >> > relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny > >> > whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We > will > >> > come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say > about > >> > this. > >> > > >> > Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the > >> case > >> > of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining > free > >> > could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that > >> accused > >> > number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya > >> > Pradesh in relation to blast cases. > >> > > >> > The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were > found > >> > during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they > were > >> > examining the disks. > >> > > >> > The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation > into > >> > the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer > >> > Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, > >> > respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of > >> notices > >> > to the duo. > >> > > >> > D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to > >> five > >> > of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement > >> with > >> > SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to > >> prove > >> > that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted > to a > >> > crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part > of > >> > the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations > >> > against the terror network existing in Kerala. > >> > > >> > Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the > >> Panayikkulam > >> > camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody > as > >> > part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including > those > >> of > >> > the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror > >> squad > >> > of the Kerala Police. > >> > > >> > Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, > on > >> > Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed > Faizal, > >> who > >> > was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in > Jammu > >> & > >> > Kashmir. > >> > > >> > The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief > >> Judicial > >> > Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November > 21. > >> > Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of > Malayalee > >> > militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces > in > >> > Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal > had > >> > taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> mail at shivamvij dot com > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From lists at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 22:51:06 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:51:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811080921o38d59144re3bec598a74f7ac2@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for your generous help, Aditya. I presume you are reciprocating my help with brushing up your and your friend Kshmendra Kaul's class 3 civics textbooks that teach the difference between fundamental rights and duties, free speech and reasonable restrictions. But my point still stands, Aditya, because if the police have not even examined the DVDs in "detail," how can they just demand cancellation of bail on the grounds that the DVD features SAR Geelani? Let's say I have in my posession a DVD that features 'Sadhvi' Pragya Thakur. So? best shivam On 11/8/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Shivam, Your eye sight is testing our patience. Isn't it time you go for a > check ? Tomrw is Sunday. Help yourself. > > The article in latter part says "examine in detail the DVDs". This means > studying the DVD minutely and taking help from experts, and even cross-check > if required etc etc. > > Even a small kid would make this out. I know for sure you are not a small > kid. > > Anyways, you are said to be a 'journalist;. You have a right to question > always. I'm always there to help you, don't worry. :-) > > On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > > > > This report first says, "The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the > > Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani..." > > The later it reads, "They also said they were yet to examine in detail > > > > the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as > > per the instructions of the Magistrate." > > > > > > Now if the police has not "examined" the DVDs, how do they know that > > the DVD's "feature" SAR Geelani? > > > > The reporter doesn't seem to be aware of the paradox, and neither > > dooes Aditya Raj kaul who has posted this news item. The news item > > calls Geelani an accused when in fact he was acquitted and allowed > > again to teach at DU. > > > > But then, it's The Pioneer, whose editor is a Rajya Sabha MP from the BJP. > > > > best > > shivam > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* > > > > > > > > *VR Jayaraj | Kochi > > > The Daily Pioneer > > > > > > Link - > > > > > http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html > > > * > > > The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it > > had > > > recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the > > Parliament > > > attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated in > > the > > > SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, 2006. > > > > > > The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was > > prepared > > > for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, Kerala, > > > which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic > > > preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala > > Police > > > had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but > > > released them later after the alleged intervention of highly influential > > > personalities. > > > > > > Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of the > > > accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the court > > > that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had any > > > relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also said > > > they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted to > > the > > > North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. > > > > > > Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could have > > had > > > relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny > > > whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We will > > > come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say about > > > this. > > > > > > Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the > > case > > > of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining free > > > could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that > > accused > > > number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya > > > Pradesh in relation to blast cases. > > > > > > The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were found > > > during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they were > > > examining the disks. > > > > > > The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation into > > > the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer > > > Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, > > > respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of > > notices > > > to the duo. > > > > > > D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to > > five > > > of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement > > with > > > SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to > > prove > > > that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted to a > > > crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part of > > > the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations > > > against the terror network existing in Kerala. > > > > > > Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the > > Panayikkulam > > > camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody as > > > part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including those > > of > > > the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror > > squad > > > of the Kerala Police. > > > > > > Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, on > > > Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed Faizal, > > who > > > was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in Jammu > > & > > > Kashmir. > > > > > > The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief > > Judicial > > > Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November 21. > > > Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of Malayalee > > > militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces in > > > Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal had > > > taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > mail at shivamvij dot com > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 22:58:19 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:58:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080911s19e0c67do6caa576707c4fc92@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811080809u76261364ga18a9cee39ac5c8e@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080830x1b7068bdrc722fbd61e2d4a9d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080857x22bf6c5dvb2cd28947aa55ce2@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811080906wabe6aacxf816a44b47378025@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080911s19e0c67do6caa576707c4fc92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811080928i3ce46a35t6f4ffd7778e3ee5d@mail.gmail.com> Finally an accusation I have no hesitation in accepting. But seriously, answer Shivam....? On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Only time will tell, what this proves. > > Till then you can share my brain to think, for a change. > > I know for sure, you have sold your's to the pseudo-secular lobby at a very > cheap rate. Not done ahaan ??!!?? > > Brainless kids.. :P > > > > On 11/8/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >> Right. And having a DVD proves what? This is the same absurd and >> idiotic logic that the prosecution employed to claim that SIMI is a >> terrorist outfit- namely that they had "dangerous" books such as >> Khalil Gibran's The Prophet and Persian poetry. Where are your brains >> Aditya? Will they ever return from the long holiday they are on? >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> wrote: >> > Shivam, Your eye sight is testing our patience. Isn't it time you go for >> a >> > check ? Tomrw is Sunday. Help yourself. >> > >> > The article in latter part says "examine in detail the DVDs". This means >> > studying the DVD minutely and taking help from experts, and even >> cross-check >> > if required etc etc. >> > >> > Even a small kid would make this out. I know for sure you are not a small >> > kid. >> > >> > Anyways, you are said to be a 'journalist;. You have a right to question >> > always. I'm always there to help you, don't worry. :-) >> > >> > On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: >> >> >> >> This report first says, "The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the >> >> Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani..." >> >> The later it reads, "They also said they were yet to examine in detail >> >> >> >> the DVDs, which had been submitted to the North Paravur Tehsildar as >> >> per the instructions of the Magistrate." >> >> >> >> >> >> Now if the police has not "examined" the DVDs, how do they know that >> >> the DVD's "feature" SAR Geelani? >> >> >> >> The reporter doesn't seem to be aware of the paradox, and neither >> >> dooes Aditya Raj kaul who has posted this news item. The news item >> >> calls Geelani an accused when in fact he was acquitted and allowed >> >> again to teach at DU. >> >> >> >> But then, it's The Pioneer, whose editor is a Rajya Sabha MP from the >> BJP. >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > *SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police* >> >> >> >> > >> >> > *VR Jayaraj | Kochi >> >> > The Daily Pioneer >> >> > >> >> > Link - >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/133104/SIMI-activists-found-with-SAR-Geelani-CDs-Police.html >> >> > * >> >> > The Kerala Police on Friday submitted in the Kerala High Court that it >> >> had >> >> > recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani, one of the accused in the >> >> Parliament >> >> > attack, case from the homes of some of the youth who had participated >> in >> >> the >> >> > SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva off Kochi, held on August 15, >> 2006. >> >> > >> >> > The SIMI meet at Panayikkulam was reportedly where the schedule was >> >> prepared >> >> > for the training camp held in the hill resort of Vagamon, Idukki, >> Kerala, >> >> > which, according to the Gujarat Police, was organised for the basic >> >> > preparations for carrying out the bombings in Ahmedabad. The Kerala >> >> Police >> >> > had taken into custody five of the 15 participants in the meeting but >> >> > released them later after the alleged intervention of highly >> influential >> >> > personalities. >> >> > >> >> > Filing a petition seeking cancellation of the bail granted to some of >> the >> >> > accused in the case relating to the SIMI camp, the police told the >> court >> >> > that they were examining their antecedents and whether these men had >> any >> >> > relations with the accused in the Parliament attack case. They also >> said >> >> > they were yet to examine in detail the DVDs, which had been submitted >> to >> >> the >> >> > North Paravur Tehsildar as per the instructions of the Magistrate. >> >> > >> >> > Police sources said the accused in the Panayikkulam camp case could >> have >> >> had >> >> > relations with extremist elements but they refused to confirm or deny >> >> > whether they had links with those behind the Parliament attack. "We >> will >> >> > come to know in some days" was all a source in the police would say >> about >> >> > this. >> >> > >> >> > Seeking cancellation of bail granted to accused number 6 and 7 in the >> >> case >> >> > of the Panayikkulam SIMI camp, the police said that their remaining >> free >> >> > could disturb the smooth investigations. They also pointed out that >> >> accused >> >> > number 1 and 3 in the case had presently been in the prison in Madhya >> >> > Pradesh in relation to blast cases. >> >> > >> >> > The police said the DVDs containing Geelani's picture frames were >> found >> >> > during searches at the homes of accused number 6 and 7 and that they >> were >> >> > examining the disks. >> >> > >> >> > The police submitted in the High Court that the smooth investigation >> into >> >> > the case could get influenced if accused number 6 and 7, Shameer >> >> > Karukappadath, Eriyad, and Abdul Hakkeem Kadakathangath, Kappal Bazar, >> >> > respectively remained outside custody. The court ordered serving of >> >> notices >> >> > to the duo. >> >> > >> >> > D Pappachan, Principal Sessions Judge, Ernakulam, had granted bail to >> >> five >> >> > of the accused after the police had failed to prove their involvement >> >> with >> >> > SIMI. The judge had also observed that the police had not been able to >> >> prove >> >> > that the participants at the meeting had made speeches that amounted >> to a >> >> > crime against the nation. The five were arrested on October 20 as part >> of >> >> > the reinvestigation of the case in the context of the new revelations >> >> > against the terror network existing in Kerala. >> >> > >> >> > Officials had already indicated that some of the accused in the >> >> Panayikkulam >> >> > camps case had connections with some of the people taken into custody >> as >> >> > part of the ongoing operations against terror operatives, including >> those >> >> of >> >> > the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, by the newly formed anti-terror >> >> squad >> >> > of the Kerala Police. >> >> > >> >> > Meanwhile, the Additional Chief Judicial Magistrate Court, Thalassery, >> on >> >> > Friday extended the judicial custody of LeT recruiter C Muhammed >> Faizal, >> >> who >> >> > was arrested in connection with his links with terrorist groups in >> Jammu >> >> & >> >> > Kashmir. >> >> > >> >> > The special investigation team produced him before Additional Chief >> >> Judicial >> >> > Magistrate VK Rajan, who extended his judicial custody till November >> 21. >> >> > Faizal was arrested following a tip-off from Safiya, mother of >> Malayalee >> >> > militant Muhammad Fayaz of Kannur, who was killed by security forces >> in >> >> > Lolab valley of Kashmir early in October. According to Safiya, Faizal >> had >> >> > taken Fayaz away on September 10 by offering him a job in Bangalore. >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> mail at shivamvij dot com >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> > Cell - +91-9873297834 >> > >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 23:18:31 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:48:31 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Sufi Music Festival Message-ID: <5af37bb0811080948j5538e629oddf7f73d69df25a8@mail.gmail.com> ... come for the chai and samosas ... * 'Traversing the Divide'* Indus Valley School of Art and Architecture In collaboration with Pakistan Petroleum Limited Presents Award Winning Films from India on Partition and the Sui Poet Kabir with an evening of Sui Music November 14, 15 & 16, 2008. *The Sky Below by Sarah Singh (2007, 75 mins):* Sarah Singh's film, "The Sky Below", beautifully filmed with the sensitivity of an artist, fosters an understanding of the most poignant event in the sub-continent, Partition. On one hand, there was the euphoria of Independence, on the other, a tragedy unfolded. Hundreds of thousands perished and millions were permanently uprooted by communal discord. This tragedy still lives in the memories of elders in both countries and has influenced the second and third generations. The film shares unbiased viewpoints through interviews. It illustrates a shared cultural heritage that has survived the artificially drawn boundary line. The documentary traverses landscape, history, and politics from Kutch to Kashmir in India, and from Karachi to the Khyber Pass in Pakistan. A legacy of suspicion and a profound inability to reconcile the political divide has overshadowed the shared Indus Valley Civilization. In this feature documentary, a contemporary portrait of this region emerges, exploring some of the ground realities of the lingering fallout; is reconciliation possible between the two countries with interwoven histories, cultures, and faiths, after 60 years of strained relations and the ever-present, unresolved crisis in Kashmir? Featuring (from both Pakistan and India) first-person stories from the time of Partition, as well as politicians, royalty, ordinary citizens, historians, and many others who share their insights into the past, present, and future of this volatile, yet fast emerging, South Asian economic bloc. The film emphasizes contrasted realities in this culturally connected, yet politically disconnected region. The film also features a particular focus on some lesser known aspects of Partition. * Journeys with Kabir* *Three films by Shabnam Virmani* Shabnam Virmani's films emphasize the Sufi message of brotherhood, a message that transcends the boundaries of race and religion. Tracing the Sufi path, they evoke our sense of shared cultural binds through the rich legacy of music and poetry. These documentary films travel through contemporary spaces touched by the music and poetry of the 15th century mystic weaver-poet of north India, Kabir. We meet a diverse array of people – an urban folklorist, a street fruit seller, a social activist, a Dalit folk singer, a Zen Buddhist scholar, a neo-fascist mahant, a Muslim qawwal – each encounter offering a moment of insight into the verse and its contemporary context. We glimpse not one, but many Kabirs. Sometimes he beckons, sometimes he baffles, but always he pushes you to self-interrogate, to question the boundaries of your identity, nation, ideology, caste and religion… making these journeys unrelentingly inward even as they venture outward. *Had-Unhad: Journeys with Kabir and Ram (2008, 102 mins)* This ilm is an attempt to understand Kabir's Ram, through encounters in India and Pakistan. It delves into the divisive politics of religion and nationalism, probing the forces of history that have created diverse Rams, while also spawning many Kabirs. *Chalo Hamara Des: Journeys with Kabir and Friends (2008, 98 mins)* A journey in search of Kabir's "des" (country), this ilm unfolds through the interwoven narratives of two people from two very different countries – Dalit Indian folk singer Prahlad Tipanya and North American scholar Linda Hess. We enter the world of Kabir, through the personal and public lives of these two individuals, brought together in an unlikely friendship by the amazing universality and cross-cultural resonance of Kabir. *Koi Sunta Hai: Journeys with Kabir and Kumar (2008, 94 mins)* This film interweaves the oral folk traditions of Kabir in central India with the intensely personal narrative of the late classical singer Pt. Kumar Gandharva. Journeying between folk and classical, between rural and urban expressions of Kabir, the film finds moments of both continuity and rupture between these disparate worlds. An evening of Sufi Music One evening features a performance by the internationally acclaimed Qawwals, Fareed Ayaz and Abu Mohammed who will recite Kabir's immortal verses and those of other sufi masters. Fareed Ayaz and Abu Mohammed also feature prominently in the film Had Unhad by Shabnam Virmani. * The Events * *Friday, November 14: (by invitation)* 6:30 pm Screening of Shabnam Virmani's award winning ilm, Had Unhad (120 minutes) followed by a panel discussion with the Director and invited panelists. 10:00 pm onwards Sui Music with Qawwals Fareed Ayaz & Abu Mohammed Venue Auditorium, Rangoonwala Community Centre. *Saturday, November 15: (by invitation) * 6:30 pm Screening of Sarah Singh's award winning Film, The Sky Below (75 mins) followed by a panel discussion with the Director and invited panelists. Venue Auditorium, Rangoonwala Community Centre. *Sunday, November 16: for students, faculty and film makers. * 11:00 am Screening of Shabnam Virmani's Chalo Hamara Des (98 mins) Panel discussion 1:30 pm Lunch Break 2:15 pm Screening of Shabnam Virmani's Koi Sunta Hai (94 mins) Panel discussion 5:30 pm Tea 6:00 pm Musadiq Sanwal sings Kabir Venue Indus Valley School of Art & Architecture *Acknowledgement* We thank VASL and T2F for their support of these events Invitation cards are available irst-come-irst from November 10 at: Indus Valley School of Art & Architecture (Contact Diana 021-5861039) The Second Floor (Contact Reception 0300-8230276) Rangoonwala Community Centre: (Contact Reception 021-4935168) From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 23:22:54 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 23:22:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811080952h6ec5f2b5v7f59f3eae67abb26@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra thanks for respecting the verdict which proved Prof SAR innocent. But in so many other cases, as you too pointed out that there are many innocent victims who are punished for no fault of theirs, and i believe, their number is much much more than those who are guilty but found innocent. Pity that we have such a bad system of judiciary in India. People , mostly poor people really suffer on account of that, sad...... Communalism, Fascism and Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality*" that was the topic at DU where Prof. SAR Geelani was insulted, which i believe was not violating Indian Constitution in anyway. and if so where was the need for ABVP to spit him publicly. I guess, these actions actually give reasons for others to become violent, even to become terrorists, why, to shy away from questioning? Here, what disturbs me most is the fact that BJP President Raj Nath said: Prayga Singh's action are 'in the interests of Nation', and in that sense he looks more dangerous than Prayga singh itself. ( more so, if Pragya sing is proven not-guilty tomorrow ) So, those who feel that spitting Prof. SAR was in the interest of nation, and forcefully support that action, are more dangerous than that person who actually did the ugly job in DU. yes, we condemn violence of any sort, so excuses...... it is unfortunate that some friends on the List give reasons and justify spitting others. if that is the way, then tomorrow they too can face this ugliness. which is highly unfortunate. love is On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been accused of is not within my competence to comment on. > > As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by due processes of Law. > > Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution'. > > The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. > > As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen of India, including the "Right of Speech". > > In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which includes the State of J&K. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > > From: Shivam V > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker > To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM > > You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: > http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > > It has pictures of the spitting incident. > > It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). > > There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan > Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the > list administrator. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > > November 4, 2006 > HT Correspondent > New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > > Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > > A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > > Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi > University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting > the programme briefly. > > The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > > "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," > said Sharma. > > The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > detained the activists. > > The University Community –– an independent group of students and > teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > violence. > > "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided > with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > > To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > > In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing > a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement > said. > > Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a > community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > said. > > DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. > "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > > Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > History (Honours) syllabus. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > > (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh > wrote: >> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every >> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" > ("interactive >> session" where venom was spewed on the >> >> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is >> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified > manner >> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, > was >> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must > write a >> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case > you >> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >> >> >> >> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't > let >> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports >> on vandalism in DU. >> >> >> >> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did >> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what > did >> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked > the >> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the > "nationalist >> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for > Terrorism will >> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I > got >> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >> involvement in Malegaon. >> >> >> >> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a > Kashmiri >> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse >> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay > if >> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' > a >> terrorist when is been acquitted? >> >> >> (*To be continued…………*) >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>> But Hindus.. >>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>> terrorist... >>> >>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack > and >>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and > greater >>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>> >>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put > 'Tika' on >>> their forehead... >>> >>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call > yourself >>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>> To: sarai list >>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; > Geelani is star >>> speaker >>> >>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>> >>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>> >>> The Daily Pioneer >>> >>> Link - >>> >>> > http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>> * >>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in > India, take on >>> ABVP 'goons'* >>> >>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed > on the >>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known > anti-national — SAR >>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was > hero-worshipped. >>> >>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>> Faculty >>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed > by >>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in > the >>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. > Geelani >>> was >>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and > Reality', >>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>> >>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of > national >>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and > letting >>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the > Government >>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me > later >>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in > the 2003 >>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. > He >>> said >>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of > democracy in >>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of > corruption," he >>> said. >>> >>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments > of DU, >>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long > Live" and >>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two > working journalists >>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia > Islamia, >>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the > Students' >>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>> >>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>> "Inquilab >>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>> fascism." >>> >>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, > was >>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>> teacher >>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising > 'a talk'. >>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet > Singh >>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their > talk in >>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. > The meeting, >>> however, went on. >>> >>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar > room >>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande > Mataram'. An activist >>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying > 'shame, >>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, > chairs and the >>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued > despite >>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 23:54:27 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 23:54:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police Message-ID: <98f331e00811081024j5f924c03h769cfd4d53679a5@mail.gmail.com> Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, I have CDs/DVDs featuring: Demolition of the Babri Mosque Gujarat Carnage 2002 9/11 attacks on WTC Taliban killings people US army torture prisoners US forces killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan Heroshima Bombings Dr Binayak Sen Bal Thakrey's nephew Raj Thakrey Jan Adalat by Maoists Violence in Nandigram My marriage Films made by Michael Moore The Great Dictator by Chaplin ...... Tell your police to arrest me...huh!! Prakash * * From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 00:08:53 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 00:08:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press statement from University Community In-Reply-To: <6353c690811080851j7a09e9ccl1088c4bcc213017c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f4dddc70811080825m7d925e65o56bfda953a10a8a9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080849y5671d695r1f559aa6e2f6ef09@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811080851j7a09e9ccl1088c4bcc213017c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811081038p74bcd53drf5252e993d63a9a8@mail.gmail.com> , unka kaam hai 'thookna' who janay mera payaam hai mohabbat, jahan pohanchay ( parody of a Jigar couplet ) ( those who spit, know their job well; my message is love, let it float freely ) J.P. Sartre saw 'spitting' in the gun that shoot, bullets. That was during world war II, when there was too much of hate, people had real problems in Europe. I dont think we have really gone though that extreme form of hate for example, between Dakka and Kolkata, there is lot of cultural exchange, both the socities recognize each others icons, between Punjab ( Pakistan ) and Punjab ( India ) both celebrate that shared cultural past, even religiously, sufism and poetry etc.... and in kashmir too, both muslims and hindu ( pandits ) come closer to each other as and when there is a mention of music, poetry and other shared cultural patterns. Territories can not outwit this human need for cultural exchange between people to any kind..... what is sad that we see ' hate ' as an object that we can hold in our hands for ever to win peace and love. i think there is no alternative to peace and love and there is no shame to de-ego the self. and for that reason alone, we all need to bow our heads to win the other, that is what all saints, poets and times teach us so love one again is On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Hope Police has filed a case against the illegal organisers 'University > Community' and the hooligans of SFI & AISA who belonged mainly to the JNU > for spreading 'communally charged' literature and even organising such a > seminar of communal propaganda. > > If not, then its indeed unfortunate. > > On 11/8/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> lol.... Complete Propaganda.. >> >> Does anyone even know who this 'University Community' organisation belongs >> to ? Faceless charecters with nil knowledge on this issue. >> >> 1. They entioned Gujarat and Orissa, but forgot the plight of 'Hindu's in >> Kashmir. >> >> 2. They believe these are 'Hindu Fascists & Terrorists'. What about >> 'Islamic Terrorists & Fundamentalists'. Or, do they support 'Islamic tirade' >> in India and across the globe. ??? >> >> 3. S.A.R. Geelani is no teacher, no authority on terrorism, no leader and >> not even a person of an iota of respect. He is a bloody terrorist. Why was >> he invited then ??? >> >> 4. No permission was taken by the organisers. So says the SHO, V-C and the >> Proctor. Whom do we believe ? SFI Goondas or the Police. >> >> 5. DUSU Office was tried to attacked, this I saw from my own eyed. I need >> not write more. Police prevented and directed eberyone to leave. >> >> 6. During the protest at the Geelani seminar, violence broke when SFI & >> AISA goondas started clashing and beating ABVP activists. These communists >> can go to any extent to even kill a person. An ABVP activist was seriously >> injured, which made matters worse. Atleast 4-5 JNU hooligans which includes >> girls were involved in an attack on ABVP activists. >> >> 7. DUSU President rightly saud that 'She would also spit at him'. The >> entire country does on a Terrorist. He is no differenet. He should be jailed >> atleast. >> >> 8. SFI, AISA and few of those left community lobby in DU are frustated with >> the fact that they have no major support lft in DU. And, hence are stuck on >> cheap publicty acts. Geelani attracts media and provokes students, hence >> they though he would be the best choice. >> >> 9. Its quite unfortunate how this 'community lobby' is so dead media hungry >> and frustration shoes on their faces. Poor souls they are. DU won't tolerate >> their propaganda be it anywhere. >> >> 10. The act of spiiting as reported by many newspapers today has been done >> by some Vinay Kumar Singh of Shri Ram Sena. He says he has no role with RSS >> and ABVP, but dares Geelani. >> >> Down with Communal Propaganda organisations like SFI & AISA. Ban Them. >> >> Period. >> >> On 11/8/08, hany babu wrote: >>> >>> Press Statement >>> >>> >>> >>> *9th November 2008.* >>> >>> >>> >>> A protest march against the ABVP's fascist assault and vandalism was held >>> by >>> the University Community on the on 7th November, starting from Vivekananda >>> statue, Arts Faculty of Delhi University. A large number of students and >>> teachers from Delhi University were joined by JNU and Jamia students, and >>> a >>> march of more than 600 people traversed all colleges in the North Campus >>> raising slogans. >>> >>> The march also stopped in front of DUSU office for around five minutes, >>> raising slogans against ABVP as well as Nupur Sharma, the President and >>> her >>> associates who attacked the seminar on 6th November. The march proceeded >>> to >>> the Vice Chancellor's office, where a protest meeting was held. Students >>> and >>> teachers in one voice spoke against ABVP's communal-fascist politics, the >>> inaction of the Delhi Police as well as the administration's attempt to >>> curb >>> the rights of speech and expression. >>> >>> A delegation of students and teachers, which also included the >>> representatives of University Community, the organizers of the public >>> meeting of the 6th November, met the DU administration and demanded >>> immediate and strict action against the ABVP lumpens who were responsible >>> for full-scale vandalism, physical assault and inciting communal frenzy. >>> The >>> university administration was asked to file an FIR against the culprits, >>> and >>> to constitute a time-bound enquiry into the incident. >>> >>> The ABVP and its masters, BJP, have however continued to justify their >>> action. They, including Nupur Sharma have been giving communally charged >>> statements in the media targeting Prof. SAR Geelani in particular and the >>> university community in general. The ABVP has been spreading completely >>> baseless allegations and are hounding the organizers of the public meeting >>> and the members of the group, University Community. Yesterday the ABVP >>> tried >>> filed a false case alleging that four members of the group tried to attack >>> the DUSU office. The white lie however was for all to see, the march was >>> conducted peacefully and no such incident as alleged by the ABVP has ever >>> occurred. The members of media were present, and a large contingent Delhi >>> Police personnel was deployed which accompanied the whole course of the >>> protest march, and they would have reported about it had such incident >>> occurred. A number senior teachers of the university also were present, >>> who marched along with the students. It is to be noted that even before >>> the >>> march reached in front of the DUSU office, the gates of the office were >>> closed. After their fascist politics getting successfully repelled and >>> thoroughly exposed, the ABVP and its masters in RSS and BJP are now >>> resorting to spreading rumours and baseless allegations in order to save >>> their face. We condemn such fascist tactics of the ABVP and the * >>> sangh-parivar* to intimidate and repress the democratic voices of the >>> campus. >>> >>> The University Community takes strong objection to the false and dangerous >>> propaganda from a person holding a responsible office like the President >>> of >>> the student union the largest Central University of the country. Moreover, >>> by calling a teacher of the university a terrorist, ABVP and Ms Nupur >>> Sharma >>> has insulted the entire student of the university. We demand an >>> unconditional apology from Ms Nupur Sharma for her objectionable remark. >>> By >>> planning and organising the attack under her leadership personally (she >>> personally led the vulgar attack on the spot) she made an aborted attempt >>> to >>> disrupt a meeting which was duly publicised and held at a venue with the >>> permission of the University Authorities. ABVP is also challenging all the >>> democratic structures of the university. In fact, this very act goes a >>> long >>> way to prove the concerns expressed by the organizers about the >>> "increasing >>> onslaught of the right- wing Hindu communal-fascist forces" in our >>> country. >>> This act and the brazen manner in which the DUSU President has carried >>> this >>> act shows us that the threat looms much larger than we can envisage. It is >>> not only states like Gujarat or Orissa that are witness to this onslaught, >>> even institutions of higher learning in the national capital are not free >>> from the clutches of Hindu communal fascist goons. >>> >>> >>> Ms Nupur Sharma has also gone on record saying that she herself would have >>> spat on SAR Geelani. This also shows that the DUSU President has no >>> respect >>> for the law or the judicial system of the country, let alone codes of >>> civilized conduct in public places. We should all think whether such a >>> person has any right to hold a responsible office. It is the typical >>> duplicity of politics of the Hindutva brigade to take recourse to the law >>> when it is convenient for their divisive politics and to break it to run >>> their writ as they are against all forms of democratic functioning or >>> accountability. >>> >>> >>> It is also interesting to see the ABVP student who resorted to a heinous >>> act >>> of spitting on respected Geelani is trying play another drama in sections >>> of >>> media that like Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, another ABVP goon, arrested >>> in >>> connection with the Malegaon blasts, that he doesn't belong to ABVP. >>> Another >>> false claim made by ABVP, which appeared in sections of newspapers is that >>> the seminar was organized by outsiders. The University Community comprises >>> a >>> group of students and teachers of Delhi University who thought it is high >>> time that we started discussing some of the burning issues that are >>> threatening to incinerate the secular and democratic fabric of our >>> society. >>> It is only natural that some people who are interested in the topic would >>> have decided to attend the seminar as is the tradition in all universities >>> whether it is DU, JNU or Jamia Millia Islamia. Since DU has no policy to >>> hold all the events inside closed doors, it is surprising that the DUSU >>> President takes objection to the presence of some "outsiders". Perhaps for >>> the likes of Nupur Sharma and ABVP and to the politics of communal >>> fascism >>> which she owes her affiliation, anyone who talks for the oppressed or >>> incarcerated or anyone who dares to raise the voice against a highly >>> patriarchal, oppressive, casteist, and communal Hindutva brigade is an >>> "outsider". >>> >>> >>> >>> *University Community* >>> >>> *Contact Persons: Arjumand Ara, Natasha, Tripta Wahi, Shikha, Umar Khalid >>> Harsh Bora, 9811855618, universitycommunity at gmail.com* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> University Community >>> >>> Students and Teachers of University of Delhi >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 03:53:51 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:23:51 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Nader to Obama References: <5c5369880811080512i78aa851cpf20343eebebdc3b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <700F7E9974F34B7BAFB86FEF4E5F7B82@tara> Shut up you Ralph Nader. It was you who ensured White House to George Bush. You are as responsible for 8 years of torture to the world, as Dick and Bush are. May be more than them. Your thinking is great, but thinking does not win you the White House. You can do a verbal Israel bashing but will that help? Do you think he was as immatured a politician as would criticize Israel and sympathize with Muslims during the election campaign? If he did, you know he would never win the election. Would McCain be better for stopping Israel torture than Obama? You would definitely be a better president than either of them, only if you did what you say, but how would you get elected? Electoral politics has no place for saints. Saints are anyway no good for dealing with the corporate capitalism. Obama is a politician; why should he be ashamed of politicking? Better luck next time Nader. You might succeed in bringing Dick Cheni to white house in 2012. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sanjay Kak" To: "Sarai Reader List" Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 8:12 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Nader to Obama > While our hands are still aching from all the clapping, and our ears > ring from the applause, a worthwhile caveat from Ralph Nader. > Apologies for cross-posting > > Sanjay Kak > > _______________________ > > Open Letter to Sen. Obama > > http://www.votenader.org/media/2008/11/03/lettertoobama/# > > November 3, 2008 > > Open letter to Senator Barack Obama > > Dear Senator Obama: > > In your nearly two-year presidential campaign, the words "hope and > change," "change and hope" have been your trademark declarations. Yet > there is an asymmetry between those objectives and your political > character that succumbs to contrary centers of power that want not > "hope and change" but the continuation of the power-entrenched status > quo. > > Far more than Senator McCain, you have received enormous, > unprecedented contributions from corporate interests, Wall Street > interests and, most interestingly, big corporate law firm attorneys. > Never before has a Democratic nominee for President achieved this > supremacy over his Republican counterpart. Why, apart from your > unconditional vote for the $700 billion Wall Street bailout, are these > large corporate interests investing so much in Senator Obama? Could it > be that in your state Senate record, your U.S. Senate record and your > presidential campaign record (favoring nuclear power, coal plants, > offshore oil drilling, corporate subsidies including the 1872 Mining > Act and avoiding any comprehensive program to crack down on the > corporate crime wave and the bloated, wasteful military budget, for > example) you have shown that you are their man? > > To advance change and hope, the presidential persona requires > character, courage, integrity— not expediency, accommodation and > short-range opportunism. Take, for example, your transformation from > an articulate defender of Palestinian rights in Chicago before your > run for the U.S. Senate to an acolyte, a dittoman for the hard-line > AIPAC lobby, which bolsters the militaristic oppression, occupation, > blockage, colonization and land-water seizures over the years of the > Palestinian peoples and their shrunken territories in the West Bank > and Gaza. Eric Alterman summarized numerous polls in a December 2007 > issue of The Nation magazine showing that AIPAC policies are opposed > by a majority of Jewish-Americans. > > You know quite well that only when the U.S. Government supports the > Israeli and Palestinian peace movements, that years ago worked out a > detailed two-state solution (which is supported by a majority of > Israelis and Palestinians), will there be a chance for a peaceful > resolution of this 60-year plus conflict. Yet you align yourself with > the hard-liners, so much so that in your infamous, demeaning speech to > the AIPAC convention right after you gained the nomination of the > Democratic Party, you supported an "undivided Jerusalem," and opposed > negotiations with Hamas— the elected government in Gaza. Once again, > you ignored the will of the Israeli people who, in a March 1, 2008 > poll by the respected newspaper Haaretz, showed that 64% of Israelis > favored "direct negotiations with Hamas." Siding with the AIPAC > hard-liners is what one of the many leading Palestinians advocating > dialogue and peace with the Israeli people was describing when he > wrote "Anti-semitism today is the persecution of Palestinian society > by the Israeli state." > > During your visit to Israel this summer, you scheduled a mere 45 > minutes of your time for Palestinians with no news conference, and no > visit to Palestinian refugee camps that would have focused the media > on the brutalization of the Palestinians. Your trip supported the > illegal, cruel blockade of Gaza in defiance of international law and > the United Nations charter. You focused on southern Israeli casualties > which during the past year have totaled one civilian casualty to every > 400 Palestinian casualties on the Gaza side. Instead of a > statesmanship that decried all violence and its replacement with > acceptance of the Arab League's 2002 proposal to permit a viable > Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in return for full economic > and diplomatic relations between Arab countries and Israel, you played > the role of a cheap politician, leaving the area and Palestinians with > the feeling of much shock and little awe. > > David Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator, described your trip > succinctly: "There was almost a willful display of indifference to the > fact that there are two narratives here. This could serve him well as > a candidate, but not as a President." > > Palestinian American commentator, Ali Abunimah, noted that Obama did > not utter a single criticism of Israel, "of its relentless settlement > and wall construction, of the closures that make life unlivable for > millions of Palestinians. …Even the Bush administration recently > criticized Israeli's use of cluster bombs against Lebanese civilians > [see www.atfl.org for elaboration]. But Obama defended Israeli's > assault on Lebanon as an exercise of its 'legitimate right to defend > itself.'" > > In numerous columns Gideon Levy, writing in Haaretz, strongly > criticized the Israeli government's assault on civilians in Gaza, > including attacks on "the heart of a crowded refugee camp… with > horrible bloodshed" in early 2008. > > Israeli writer and peace advocate— Uri Avnery— described Obama's > appearance before AIPAC as one that "broke all records for > obsequiousness and fawning, adding that Obama "is prepared to > sacrifice the most basic American interests. After all, the US has a > vital interest in achieving an Israeli-Palestinian peace that will > allow it to find ways to the hearts of the Arab masses from Iraq to > Morocco. Obama has harmed his image in the Muslim world and mortgaged > his future— if and when he is elected president.," he said, adding, > "Of one thing I am certain: Obama's declarations at the AIPAC > conference are very, very bad for peace. And what is bad for peace is > bad for Israel, bad for the world and bad for the Palestinian people." > > A further illustration of your deficiency of character is the way you > turned your back on the Muslim-Americans in this country. You refused > to send surrogates to speak to voters at their events. Having visited > numerous churches and synagogues, you refused tovisit a single Mosque > in America. Even George W. Bush visited the Grand Mosque in Washington > D.C. after 9/11 to express proper sentiments of tolerance before a > frightened major religious group of innocents. > > Although the New York Times published a major article on June 24, 2008 > titled "Muslim Voters Detect a Snub from Obama" (by Andrea Elliott), > citing examples of your aversion to these Americans who come from all > walks of life, who serve in the armed forces and who work to live the > American dream. Three days earlier the International Herald Tribune > published an article by Roger Cohen titled "Why Obama Should Visit a > Mosque." None of these comments and reports change your political > bigotry against Muslim-Americans— even though your father was a Muslim > from Kenya. > > Perhaps nothing illustrated your utter lack of political courage or > even the mildest version of this trait than your surrendering to > demands of the hard-liners to prohibit former president Jimmy Carter > from speaking at the Democratic National Convention. This is a > tradition for former presidents and one accorded in prime time to Bill > Clinton this year. > > Here was a President who negotiated peace between Israel and Egypt, > but his recent book pressing the dominant Israeli superpower to avoid > Apartheid of the Palestinians and make peace was all that it took to > sideline him. Instead of an important address to the nation by Jimmy > Carter on this critical international problem, he was relegated to a > stroll across the stage to "tumultuous applause," following a showing > of a film about the Carter Center's post-Katrina work. Shame on you, > Barack Obama! > > But then your shameful behavior has extended to many other areas of > American life. (See the factual analysis by my running mate, Matt > Gonzalez, on www.votenader.org). You have turned your back on the > 100-million poor Americans composed of poor whites, African-Americans, > and Latinos. You always mention helping the "middle class" but you > omit, repeatedly, mention of the "poor" in America. > > Should you be elected President, it must be more than an unprecedented > upward career move following a brilliantly unprincipled campaign that > spoke "change" yet demonstrated actual obeisance to the concentration > power of the "corporate supremacists." It must be about shifting the > power from the few to the many. It must be a White House presided over > by a black man who does not turn his back on the downtrodden here and > abroad but challenges the forces of greed, dictatorial control of > labor, consumers and taxpayers, and the militarization of foreign > policy. It must be a White House that is transforming of American > politics— opening it up to the public funding of elections (through > voluntary approaches)— and allowing smaller candidates to have a > chance to be heard on debates and in the fullness of their now > restricted civil liberties. Call it a competitive democracy. > > Your presidential campaign again and again has demonstrated cowardly > stands. "Hope" some say springs eternal." But not when "reality" > consumes it daily. > > Sincerely, > Ralph Nader > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sarang_shidore at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 07:35:26 2008 From: sarang_shidore at yahoo.com (Sarang Shidore) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:05:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Vir Sanghvi is wowed by Obama's victory Message-ID: <697550.51387.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>   Brown man’s burden The Obama victory shows us that we may be the world’s largest democracy, but America is the world’s greatest democracy.   Vir Sanghvi Hindustan Times   Is there anything left to say about Barack Obama’s victory after so many days of saturation media coverage? And even if there is, wouldn’t you rather hear it from Maureen Dowd, Thomas Friedman and all the other top American columnists whose pieces are so widely reproduced in Indian papers these days? Do you really want the perspective of an Indian outsider? (One who told you many months ago that he thought John McCain would win!) Of course, you don’t. So I’m not going to give you the benefit of my two bits on why Obama won, what his victory means for Black America or what he should do now. But yes, there is something that we don’t talk about often enough. And that’s about how they conduct elections in America and how it shows up our own political system for the tawdry, ideologically bankrupt, family business that it really is. Let’s start with the biggest mistake that all of us are making: projecting an Indian matrix on the US election. “Isn’t Obama’s victory great?” we say. “Do you think Mayawati could ever become Prime Minister?” Or, “This shows the growing power of the black community in the US.” It’s understandable that we should see things this way. Over the last ten years, politics in India have become increasingly about identity. People ask us to vote for them not because of what they’ve achieved or even what they’ll do but because of the families they were born into. At its simplest level, this is about dynasty. Vote for me, they say, because I am the daughter or the son of so-and-so. At a more complex level, it is about caste, ethnicity and religion: vote for me because like you, I am a Dalit/a Reddy/a Jat/a Yadav/ a Hindu etc. Dalits are expected to vote for Mayawati, not because she is a great politician, but because they are Dalits and they should vote for a Dalit leader. The backwards will vote for Mulayam Singh Yadav because he is one of them. And so on. The Obama victory shows us that we may be the world’s largest democracy, but America is the world’s greatest democracy. Issues are selected because of the appeal they will have to castes and communities. For instance, the BJP will focus on terrorism not necessarily because it is a serious problem but because the party hopes to capitalise on Hindu fears of violence from Muslims. Similarly Muslim leaders will go on about police brutality not necessarily because it is a genuine problem but because they want to make Muslims feel vulnerable and exposed. The interesting thing about the Obama victory was that it was not predicated on identity. First of all, Obama is not a Black American by birth or upbringing. His father (who left when he was very young) was Kenyan, his mother was a white American and he was brought up by white grandparents. Whatever experience he has of the Black American identity came in later life and especially after his marriage to Michelle (who is a Black American). So, he was not campaigning on an accident of birth, in the way that say, Mayawati, Mulayam or Bal Thackeray do.  Secondly, his victory also ended another kind of birth-dominated politics. Ever since the first George Bush was elected in 1998, two families — the Bushes and the Clintons — have dominated American politics. After the second George Bush, we thought it would be the turn of Hillary Clinton. Part of the significance of the Obama victory is that it marks the triumph of democracy over dynasty. Hillary Clinton believed she had the Democratic nomination in her handbag. Nobody thought that a half-Black, first-term Senator from Illinois had any chance of winning the nomination, let alone the Presidency. It wouldn’t happen here. And it couldn’t happen here. Indian politics is now largely a family affair. Nearly everybody who matters (including Mayawati, incidentally) is in politics because of a parent, a husband, a boy friend, or whatever. Such is the hold of dynasty that non-dynasts hardly get room to breathe, let alone grow. This is not to say that dynastic politicians are necessarily bad (nobody thinks Hillary was stupid; nor are many of our political sons and daughters) but only that they are dynastic politicians. This was brought home to me when I read two excellent opinion pieces on the Obama victory in the Indian Express by two of India’s brightest young politicians, one from the Congress and one from the BJP. Both men were very perceptive. But they were also sons of former ministers who had joined politics because it was the family tradition. An Obama in India? Don’t see how: where’s the room? It’s also important to recognise that Obama did not fight this election as the candidate of the Black community: he fought it as an American. That rarely happens in India. Any minority candidate in India stands as the representative of the minority. His (or her) appeal is nearly always framed in terms of righting the injustices done to his (or her) community or, at the very least, of delivering future benefits to the community. Can you imagine Mayawati standing for election and not promising to usher in a new era for Dalits? Where would the Thackerays be if they did not promise to advance the interests of Maharashtrians? Would there be any Muslim politics in India if leaders could not claim that Islam was in danger or that the Prophet had been insulted (by a Danish cartoonist, by Salman Rushdie or anybody else)? In fact, some Black American leaders attacked Obama for not focusing enough on race. But he refused to change the tenor of his campaign, made no attempt to capitalise on victimhood and promised nothing special to his community. Only once in his campaign did race become an issue that he was forced to confront and that was when TV channels focused on inflammatory speeches made by the pastor of his church. Even then, Obama did not play the Black victim of white racism. Instead, he made a brilliant and complex speech (possibly his finest of the campaign) in which he called for greater understanding between races, recalling that his white grandmother was often frightened when she saw Black people. Can you see any Indian politician rising to that level? Any Indian politician refusing to capitalise on his minority status? Hell, we live in a country where even the so-called party of the majority community likes to pretend that all Hindus are victims (of jehad, of ‘pseudo-secularism’ and God alone knows what else) so that it can win their votes. We underestimate the strengths of American democracy at our peril. Over the last few years, with a moron in the Oval Office, it had become easy to sneer at America. And certainly, American politics has its dark side and its share of clowns (the appalling Sarah Palin for instance, who only learnt during the campaign that Africa was a continent, not a country). The Obama victory shows us that we may be the world’s largest democracy, but America is the world’s greatest democracy. It’s not just the obvious fact of a Black man getting to the White House. It’s also the way in which he did it, by taking on the powers-that-be in his party and by refusing to run as the caricature ‘Black candidate’. Which other country has an electoral system that is so truly representative that a man can come from virtually nowhere and end up in the White House? We are a long way from that point. Over the last two decades, Indian politics has got worse rather than better: obsessed with caste, predicated on identity, favouring regional perspective over national interest and filling its ranks with the sons and daughters of the powerful. When Obama stood up in Chicago and declared, “If there is anybody out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible…. today is your answer”, we had to agree. And I, for one, wondered when such a day would come in India. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 08:48:17 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 09:18:17 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Obama's Indian Message-ID: Obama's Indian Vijay Prashad http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad11072008.html. From abhishek.hazra at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 09:40:06 2008 From: abhishek.hazra at gmail.com (Abhishek Hazra) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 09:40:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Thirty-One Flavors of Death Message-ID: <6deae8300811082010pcf706d1g6fb8e6953717321d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.bidoun.com/15_31flavorsofdeath.php Thirty-One Flavors of Death By Achal Prabhala A vanload of city kids takes the wrong turn in the wrong jungle. Witchcraft ensues. Of course, they pass a river polluted by industrial waste. Of course, there is a tribe of cannibalistic zombies who live on its banks, who take a culinary interest in one of our city slickers. And of course, there is a serial killer in a burqa who greets the rest of them with a whirling, spike-studded flail. And there's a midget. This, in brief, is Zibahkhana, Pakistan's first high-definition video film, and the brain—hungry lovechild (or love-hungry brainchild?) of Omar Ali Khan, a forty-five-year-old first-time director and schlock-horror cineaste whose kingdom was built on ice cream. Omar began his tour d'horreur as the black sheep of a prominent Pakistani family. He was not conventionally ambitious. He went to college in America and graduate school in England, but couldn't bring himself to become an academic. Upon returning to Pakistan, he failed the civil service exam (to the amusement of his father, a diplomat) and took a job teaching high school, which he did for almost ten years, though he found it boring. Mostly he did what he loved—he watched movies. All kinds, from mainstream Bollywood epics to obscure second- and third-tier Hollywood films to the indigenous outpourings of Lollywood, Pakistan's own film industry. And he ate ice cream. He ate a lot of ice cream. Having gone to college in Boston in the 1980s, the heyday of the independent ice cream store, he had acquired a taste for natural flavors and organic ingredients, as well as admiration for the "smoosh-in" (the original ice-cream-and-candy-bar hybrid). But the ice cream back home was brightly colored, generic, and tasteless. Worse, the ice cream shops in Islamabad were aimed squarely at children, complete with Mickey Mouse murals. One day Omar decided to try his hand at making ice cream for himself. When the results were encouraging, he thought about selling it to others, and in August 1995 he and his younger brother Ali opened a makeshift business out of their parents' Islamabad home. It would not be safe for children. They called it the Hotspot. Omar and Ali's ice cream was gourmet—no artificial coloring, no preservatives or additives. Instead of plastic buckets, they used wooden tubs. All the ingredients were fresh: August is mango season, so that became one of the first flavors. Scraping imported beans from Madagascar and soaking them overnight in cream lent their vanilla its exquisite richness. (They weren't wholly virtuous: they also featured Malted Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough.) Despite their odd location, the lack of seating, and a limited range of flavors, customers showed up in droves. One year later, when a restaurant in the shape of a railway coach at Gol Market closed down, the Khans gleefully relocated. In Islamabad there was not much by way of cafe culture, no teenage hangouts as such, and young people flocked to the Hotspot. The space itself was decorated like the inside of Omar's head. Lurid movie posters lined the walls; assorted horror props hung from the ceiling. The soundtrack was a careful mix of period funk, nightclub numbers from swinging Lahore, Bombay disco from the 1980s, and the occasional Blondie track. Thus emboldened, Omar and Ali started publishing the Scream, a newsletter about ice cream and movies that would grow into a full-fledged fanzine devoted to "Horror and Cult, Trash and Z Grade" cinema. Improbably enough, the formula was a success. Today there are five Hotspots, including a flagship store with an expanded menu of organic dishes and a bookshop at Gaddafi Stadium in Lahore, where the country's major international cricket matches are played. That Pakistan's most distinctive cafe chain and South Asia's most discerning horror movie resource should have sprung from ostensibly serene Islamabad makes a perverse kind of sense. A young city of under a million people, it was created in the 1960s by Pakistan's first military leader, Field Marshall Ayub Khan. It is unrelentingly rich and unrelentingly clean. Traffic flows demurely, gigantic homes are tucked inside high compound walls, and the effect is an eerie stillness. There is no street life to escape to, no crowd within which to get lost. There are few public spaces, save the shopping mall. Islamabad's elite tends to do as it pleases (behind locked doors), and despite fluctuating undercurrents of class resentment and moral fervor, the arrangement is usually acceptable to all. Sometimes, however, it is not. The occasion for the bloody siege at the Lal Masjid in 2007 was a vigilante raid on a well-known brothel by female students from the mosque. Still, if there is a prevailing mood in Islamabad, it is one of listlessness. In a city of such peculiar calm, it seems appropriate that a horror-themed ice cream parlor should be the center of social life. I did not come to Pakistan for the ice cream. Nor was I primarily interested in talking about Zibahkhana—I hadn't managed to see it yet. My first interest was in the Hotspot Online, the website Omar Khan launched in 2000 as an archive and extension of the best of the Scream. By now there are hundreds of thousands of words on thousands of movies—Hollywood, Bollywood, Lollywood, and then some-as well as film clips, hand-painted copies of movie posters for sale, travel writing, a "rough guide to Islamabad," and incredibly weird blog posts (most recently, a contest gauging the dictatorial prowess of Pervez Musharraf as compared to Idi Amin). It was at the prompting of the Hotspot Online, for instance, that I was encouraged to seek out the 1990 Punjabi-language hit International Gorillay. Its principal character is a criminal mastermind named Salman Rushdie, who sets out to destroy Islam by luring Pakistanis into gambling, dancing, and all manner of sundry sins. Rushdie tortures his prisoners by reading to them aloud from The Satanic Verses; the brave mujahids out to stop him are disguised in Batsuits; and in the end, a quartet of levitating Qur'ans shoot laser beams into Rushdie's head, causing him to explode. Omar's site had already acquired an international cult following by the time I heard about it, but I was suspicious. I had spent a futile year trying to write about two Indians actors, Govinda and Mithun, who together had starred in the majority of the most outlandish Bollywood offerings since the late 1970s. The problem was getting the tone right; I couldn't find a template. I read books on film theory and found them useful, but professional theorists seemed not to allow for the possibility that one might actually enjoy watching the thing one is theorizing. And yet enjoyment was not without its hazards; so much middle-class appreciation of "low" culture amounts to intellectual slumming, and I knew too many snobs in Soho and Shoreditch and Bangalore who enjoyed bad cinema badly. But it turned out that Omar's criticism was visceral, sincere, and sharp, loving yet caustic, like the work of a film theorist on truth serum and crack at the same time. I had found my model. I kept browsing, and found Omar's own extensive writings on my putative subjects. I quietly shelved the project. You can lose yourself in the forest of text and image that is the Hotspot Online (and not only because the site map is incredibly confusing). Reading Omar's reviews scrambled my mental geography; his Pakistan is a land of mayhem, whimsy, and all-encompassing strangeness. Places that only existed for me through newspaper accounts of Taliban strongholds were repopulated with lecherous beast-ladies hell-bent on plunder. Omar's predilections notwithstanding, the majority of Pakistani films are not particularly subversive or strange. And the actual history of Lahore's film industry (the "L" in Lollywood) predates Pakistan. The city's first films were made in the 1930s and played to a wide subcontinental audience. In fact, colonial India's first film with sound, Alam Ara (The Light of the World), was made there in 1931, inaugurating a musical genre that continues to this day. Lollywood and Bollywood both flourished in the decades after partition. On the Pakistani side, the industry was given a boost in 1965, when the longstanding ban on Indian films was suddenly enforced after armed conflict in Kashmir. Lahore was producing a record number of films in a wide variety of genres, including one brief but crucial foray into horror. Zinda Laash (The Living Corpse) was a brooding 1967 black and white thriller starring an up-and-coming actor named Rehan as Professor Tabani, a sort of Dr Jekyll and Mr Dracula. Zinda Laash made Lollywood film history twice-the first horror film, and the first and only film to earn the label "For Adults Only," after the board of censors accused the film of being "corruptive and evil." Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Pakistan's prime minister during this "golden age," is sometimes credited with creating an open climate for cultural expression. In retrospect, however, his 1977 decision to ban the sale of alcohol (perhaps a last-ditch effort to appease conservatives) was the beginning of the end of the era. Bhutto was promptly overthrown by General Zia-ul-Haq; two years later, after consolidating power (and executing Bhutto), Zia moved to enforce the ban. Out went the bars and nightclubs where alcohol had been served-and with them, the paradigmatic Lollywood "nightclub number." More significant, if less dramatic, was the widespread introduction of VCRs, which allowed increasing numbers of Pakistani film viewers to circumvent the Bollywood ban in the privacy of their own homes. (The Urdu language spoken in most song-and-dance Lollywood films is the same language as that spoken in Bollywood films, and the "family melodrama" has been the dominant mode in both Lahore and Bombay.) By the early 1990s, there were those who believed that the industry might never recover. The decline did not affect all segments of the film industry equally, however, as Hotspot aficionados can attest. A number of epochal Punjabi films, and even a few in Urdu, still managed to get made in the late 70s and 80s, while cinema in Pushto, the language of Pakistan's oft-lawless northwest corridor, went completely berserk. Consider Aurat Raj (The Reign of Women), a rare and rarefied Urdu classic. In 1979, the bodybuilder, singer, and actor Rangeela added another line to his resume: director. His film had a beguiling premise. A group of women discover a bomb that switches gender roles and seize power by setting it off. In this brave new world, women wield machine guns and flick their cigarettes with an easy flair, while men twirl in slow motion and swing their hips coquettishly. "I used to be Sultan Rahi," simpers one of the ex-men, after he is saved from molestation at the hands of a vengeful band of marauding women. There's not a trace of camp in the scene. And it's a beautiful moment because he really is Sultan Rahi, the actor best known as the ax-wielding macho man Maula Jat, an archetypal Punjabi folk hero whose eponymous vehicle was also released that year. But where Aurat Raj came and went, Maula Jat was a genuine blockbuster-a gory tale set against a backdrop of feudal injustice and told in a continuous high-pitched scream. It didn't invent the character-Sultan Rahi's first time out as the hearty peasant with arms of steel and a heart of gold was in Wehshi Jat, four years earlier. And it almost didn't happen at all-Maula Jat's anti-establishment ethos caught the attention of General Zia, and it missed being banned by a whisker. Maula Jat became one of the highest grossing films in Pakistani history, transforming Sultan Rahi into a superstar and spawning a slew of unofficial sequels that are still being made. The plot of the film is simple or complicated, depending on how you look at it. Suffice to say that it involves our rustic vigilante, some bloodily detached body parts, and an exacting feudal villainess who shoots her brother through the heart for failing to adequately rape the village belle. Tales of feudal injustice are not uncommon in Bollywood, either. But the most distinctive of Pakistan's film industries, Pushto cinema, is unlike anything else. In Pakistan today, it is a byword for porn (or "fully-clothed porn," as Omar would put it). And its titillations are nearly completely unpredictable; recent films have involved floating phalluses, lascivious hairy she-beasts, all-cavewoman catfights, even the odd amorous grizzly bear. Its leading ladies are, almost to a lady, incredibly fat. Perhaps Lour Da Balaa (Daughter of the Beast), a 1999 film featuring a female monster given to brutally raping soldiers and a woman who fellates a pistol, is perfectly sensible to audiences on the outer fringes of Peshawar; as for me, it rearranged my molecules. Naturally, Omar gives it loving attention on the Hotspot Online. I ended up spending several days in Lahore. In the daytime I met with Omar and toured both Hotspot locations. It was at night, however, that I truly saw the sights. I can confirm that for all its manicured suburbs and ancient monuments, and even without nightclubs, Lahore remains a hotspot for sin and sinners. I discovered this mostly thanks to Mohsin Raza, aka Sattar Masihi, one of the last of a dying breed of billboard painters. For decades, movies were advertised by lavishly detailed billboards. But in the new millennium, with the advent of digital printing technology, this art form has almost disappeared. Producers and theater owners prefer digital prints, which are cheaper, faster, and more realistic. Artists like Mohsin face either unemployment or a future of painting shop signs. Inevitably, Omar Khan is a fanatical lover of the artisanal craft of billboard painting, and tucked away in a corner of the Hotspot Online, you will find scores of two-by-three-foot movie posters for sale, hand-painted by Mohsin and his ilk. Omar first met Mohsin several years ago at Royal Park, Lahore's legendary movie studio, and recently curated an exhibition of his work in London. Mohsin loves theater. Every night in Lahore at ten o'clock, the curtain rises on a series of live tableaux, enacted with song and dance by female performers. The most famous, like Madam Nargis, are superstars whose recordings sell internationally; newcomers, meanwhile, usually resort to wardrobe malfunctions to pull in the crowds. Regardless of the stature of the performer, almost every theater is booked out every single night, at a cost upwards of 2000 rupees per (male) head. Live theater here is not exactly a secret. It is heavily advertised on the street and prominently featured on Fridays and Sundays in Pakistan's highest-circulating Urdu newspaper, the Daily Jang. But its public nature is no indication of its respectability, and the clearest sign that it might be frowned upon is a recent film from one Rasheed Dogar entitled Sachaday Night. I had earlier squirmed through another of Dogar's creations, Murdar (by which I think he meant "murder"), so I was acquainted with his oeuvre. It is rich in "impact shots"-a favorite technique of Indian soap operas too-where the camera zooms in on a particular scene and jerks up and down and sideways, as if caught in an emotional earthquake. The protagonist spends his Saturday nights preying on live theater actresses (who are, of course, all prostitutes). On the pretense of a quick romp, he takes them home, kills them, and has his father hide the bodies in his backyard. Eventually the police track him down and lock him up. Upon further reflection, the policemen realize that he's been performing a valuable service by eliminating vice and temptation, and, in the best interests of society, they let him go. When asked to account for his love of film-and his taste for trash-Omar, in a time-honored maneuver, blames his parents. His father is a Hitchcock obsessive; his mother's family, devotees of the tear-jerkingest Lollywood melodrama. But the primal scene of his childhood, his initiation ritual, if you will, transpired during a full moon in Kent, England, where the five-year-old Omar and his parents attended a nighttime showing of The Wizard of Oz. "I was dragged out of the cinema in a state of total hysteria," he says. "Traumatized into a state of unsurpassed fear, and loving every second of the sensation." Like many children, Omar had a favorite character. Unlike many children, his favorite was the Wicked Witch of the West. And unlike nearly everyone, the character Omar identifies with (or at least, most closely resembles) is not plucky Dorothy Gale or the Cowardly Lion but the man behind the curtain, the great Oz himself. Omar is a highly hands-on manager, meddling daily with one or another aspect of his businesses, up to and including the songs on the jukebox at the various cafes. But he prefers to be hands-on behind the scenes. He is strikingly introverted, preferring not to leave home if he can help it. He spends most days in cotton pajamas, working out of his house in Islamabad, near but not within the fabled "posh sectors." (A newspaper report of a recent attempt at bombing the Danish Embassy took care to mention that it had happened in "F-6/2 posh sector"). His living area is dark and furnished with a variety of state-of-the-art electronics, including a professional projector that beams onto a giant collapsible screen. The whole house is a sort of deluxe version of the Hotspot idea. There is a bookshelf filled with biographies of serial killers and a desk with a computer jacked into what must be one of the best internet connections in Pakistan. Original movie posters line the walls, including the Gunmaster G-9 classic Surakkshaa, the pioneering Wehshi Jatt, and Saw, a Hollywood film that Omar doesn't like but wistfully admires for having initiated a genre called "torture porn." Food is usually ordered out from the Hotspot, though his custom does not usually include ice cream. Omar has all but lost his passion for it-and if photographs of him circa 1995 are any indicator, he's lost a lot of weight as well. On the outside, his house is plain, worn, and somewhat unadorned. In Bangalore, where I live, this would be another ordinary upper-class dwelling; in status-conscious Islamabad, it looks positively mysterious. This summer, all of Pakistan was thrown into a cycle of power outages, causing untold damage to his filmic explorations. Omar was sanguine about it, and it seemed as though he relished the idea of conversation as a kind of novelty. But he remains the kind of person who luxuriates in his privacy. He was at his most animated discussing, say, the minutiae of the life and death of Silk Smitha, South India's greatest vamp, or when talking about music. During one of our evenings together he recorded his radio show, "Mondo Bizarro," which broadcasts nationwide on CityFM. The previous week he had announced a quest for the world's worst song. "Really awful stuff," he said, proudly. "The most unlistenable songs ever." There were a number of contenders. Bappi Lahiri's "You Are My Chicken Fry" from the film Rock Dancer seemed like a possibility, though Omar is a huge Bappi fan generally. Anu Malik's "You Look to Me a Virgin," from his English album entitled Eyes, was near the top of the list. Then Omar heard "Desire" from Deepak Chopra and Demi Moore-a florid Sufi poem set to a Buddhist beat-and he knew he had a winner. Later on in the broadcast, he relented a bit. "I think I'll just play some Sylvester and tell people they've got to live a little, you know?" To live a little, or indeed at all, is not a choice available to most of the characters in Zibahkhana. The story of the film is every bit as serendipitous as Omar's career itself. In early 2001, he was contacted by Pete Tombs and Andy Starke, a British duo who had discovered the Hotspot Online. Pete was a London-based writer and author of two cult books: Immoral Tales, on the erotic horror films of Europe, and Mondo Macabro, a global survey of "fantastic cinema." The British duo were preparing a television series based on Mondo Macabro for Channel 4; they also planned to launch a DVD label devoted to recirculating lost genre classics. It was a meeting of like minds, and the beginning of a series of collaborations. Omar appeared as a "talking head" on the South Asian episode of Mondo Macabro TV; shortly thereafter, a joint Mondo Macabro/Bubonic Films edition of Zinda Laash was released under its English title, The Living Corpse, with plans (as yet unrealized) for an edition of Aurat Raj. When Omar decided to make his own movie, Pete and Andy were the first people he talked to. They decided to produce the film together, Pete assisting Omar in the writing and Andy taking charge of the editing. Omar would direct. The script was a tribute-laden horror film set in modern day Pakistan, an "ode to the masked slasher" from trash-splatter landmarks like Halloween and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Their first attempt at production was derailed by the Kashmir earthquake of 2005, in which close to eighty thousand people died. The shoot finally began on July 10, 2006-just in time for the monsoon. Start to finish, it took one month, during which time the Islamabad police found two dead bodies in the forest where the film was being shot. (It turned out that their chosen forest was a choice dumping ground for inconvenient bodies.) A few scenes were reshot in November, the post-production was insanely rushed, and in March 2007, Zibahkhana made its world premiere at Denmark's national film festival. Zibahkhana is a supremely satisfying romp. The Burqaman-definitely the world's first burqa-clad serial killer-is an instant icon. Omar admits that the idea derived from a childhood fear of the burqa, "a fantastically gothic and dramatic outfit that manages to strip all expression, emotion, and warmth from a human face." He is both perplexed and delighted that it didn't cause more controversy. But the Burqaman is just the beginning. The film is studded with tributes and in-jokes for the cognoscenti (which is to say, readers of the Hotspot Online). While the film's teenagers are a mix of up-and-coming actors and absolute beginners, most of the other characters are played by legendary but forgotten or underrated actors. Rehan, the vampire-scientist from Zinda Laash, has a pivotal role; the late Najma Malik, famous for playing a maniacal witch in the television serial Ainakwala Djinn, plays the Burqaman's maniacal mother. The soundtrack consists of sizzling, scratchy tunes from old Lollywood dance sequences. And though Omar bristles at the idea that his film is some kind of political statement, his characters do tend to be rather heavily oppressed: the hijra, the single mother, the abandoned poor, the miserable Christian, the misunderstood Faqir, and the mama's boy who was raised like a girl. None of them are straightforwardly sympathetic characters, and this may be why Omar hurls abuse at those who would mistake Zibahkhana for anything less (or rather, more) than a good old-fashioned horror film. After a brief tangle with the board of censors, who rejected it outright at first, Zibahkhana opened in Pakistan at a cineplex in Rawalpindi. Remarkably, it was certified for "General" consumption. Rawalpindi is Islamabad's older, louder, dustier sibling, a city in comfortable disrepair and renowned for a brand of illustrated cigarette lighter that comes in three main designs-Osama, Benazir, and Musharraf. The film was a mad success, running for ten straight weeks. A private screening for students in Lahore turned into something of a riot. Outside Pakistan, Zibahkhana has traveled to dozens of film festivals, horror and otherwise. At last year's Fantastic Film Festival in Austin, Texas, it won the award for Best Gore. This year it took the top prize at RioFan, the Brazilian festival of fantastic cinema. Certainly, there were setbacks. Zibahkhana's Lahore release coincided with Benazir Bhutto's assassination, and the film was promptly pulled. The Pakistani commercial rights-DVD included-were negotiated hastily, resulting in little revenue. Then there's the small matter of the seventy-five thousand dollars invested in the film that's yet to be recovered. Still, the film made its mark in Pakistan, and in its own weird way, put Pakistani cinema on the map. As is usually the case with Omar, there are plenty of plans in the pipeline. There are more film festivals to enter, screenings to attend, and awards to collect. There is a suitcase full of scripts waiting to become films, including Jhabarjhilla, a genre-busting women-in-prison meets porn-factory meets monster-spectacular. There are films new and old to be reviewed for the website; new ice cream flavors to be invented; a possible new source for vanilla beans to be explored. In short, the mundane work of magic-making. And through it all, there is a small but determined army of Omarites, in Pakistan and beyond, following his every move. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 10:35:03 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:05:03 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Somini Sengupta on MF Husain in Exile Message-ID: An Artist In Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/world/asia/09india.html From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 10:36:30 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 10:36:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Muslim clerics sign fatwa against terror Message-ID: Muslim clerics sign fatwa against terror Uma Sudhir Sunday, November 09, 2008, (Hyderabad) The 89-year-old Jamiat-Ulema-i-Hind, the largest Islamic body in the country, is focusing its 29th national meeting in Hyderabad on delinking terror from religion. The conference is being held to reiterate that the community is secular and peace-loving and that Islam per se cannot be linked to terror. On Saturday, nearly 6000 Muslim clerics from all over the country signed the Deoband fatwa against terror. "We want to involve as many people and make it public that terror has no place in Islam, that no terrorism can be done in the name of Islam and Quran gives no sanction to it," said Mahmood Asad Madani, Rajya Sabha MP. Significantly, the Jamiat points out that just because Hindutva terror is now being spoken about, they are not going to point fingers nor be defensive about what some call jehadi terror. "Whoever is the accused, let's not link them to any religion, whether Hindu or Muslim. People indulging in such activities should not be linked to any religion,'' said Hakimuddin Qasmi, General Secretary, Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind The two-day conference will culminate in a public meeting on Sunday evening at Hyderabad's Nizam College grounds where the Jamiat has invited other Islamic bodies as well as civil society leaders like Sri Sri Ravishankar, Swamy Aginivesh and Joseph D'Souza. http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080071869 From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Nov 8 18:52:26 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:52:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] doubt about what, javed.? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811080311v44b2bc6ev56735d59801f6bb7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811080311v44b2bc6ev56735d59801f6bb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <306B7008-2114-421F-8699-29B10FC77DB6@sarai.net> Dear All, The pathetic piece of political theatre featuring saliva and smashed window panes that was enacted by as yet unidentified 'cultural nationalists' and ABVP activists at Delhi University a few days ago, involving an assault on the dignity and person of SAR Geelani, ( a lecturer in the university who has every right to participate in the discursive life of the university as an institution) continues to occupy this list, distracting us from many other more urgent discussions. Once again, Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul have abused the freedom of the Reader List (and yes, I agree with Shivam that the time has come now for us to eject them from this list, we have been patient enough) to point fingers at a man who the highest court of law in this country could not convict, simply because the prosecution could not furnish the court with any evidence, or basis in law to convict him with. There was not an iota of evidence against him that could withstand the scrutiny of a rigourous legal process. I might add here that many of us, myself included, refrain from commenting on the so called 'guilt' of the individuals who have been detained under suspicion of being involved in the Malegaon, Modasa and Nanded bombings, because I at least do not believe that the brandishing of allegations made by policemen before trials begin, as if there were proven truth, is healthy. I might strongly disagree with a person, or even suspect an individual or individuals and networks of being involved in terror, but to take names and bandy about confessions made in police custody as if they were revelations is deeply unethical. My reticence on this matter stems from the same reason as the outrage and anger I feel when the police goes to town with allegations about episoded like the so called Jamia Nagar encounter. The 'Hindu' or 'Muslim' identities of the alleged terrorists, in either case, is irrelevant. Whether it is Sadhvi Pragya Thakur or Zia ur Rahman both should be entitled to free and fair trials. I do not believe in endorsing the pillorying of those I do not agree with means that are unfair. Having said that, let us now turn to the matter that has caused this post. Since Durani and Kaul do not shy away from repeating their allegations regarding Geelani ad nauseam on this forum in the Goebbelsian hope that the accumulation of untruth will somehow magically endow their calumny with credence, I find myself compelled to post material that I have posted before. I would ordinarily not have done this. I do this for the sake of the record on this list, because I count SAR Geelani as a friend and as a decent human being and because there are many new subscribers who may not know that Durani and Kaul's arguments with regard to Geelani and 13 December have been dealt with before here, by me, as well as by others. Please see below a modified and edited excerpt from a longer post by me on this matter titled 'Translation, Guilt, Innocence and Two Cups of Coffee'. This post appeared on the Reader List on the 1st of August, 2007. see - for the complete, earlier version of this text. Let me say one more thing, in passing. While re-reading this post, my interest was piqued at the appearance made within this narrative by none other than the now 'martyred' police officer Mohan Chand Sharma. Strengthening once again my suspicion that the circumstances surrounding his death may not have been as simple as many would have us believe. With Rajbir Singh (the other key police officer involved in the 13 December case, who, incidentally, we are told, was 'martyred' to real estate speculation) and Mohan Chand Sharma disposed of, and Mohammad Afzal's fate hanging in balance, the cast of characters who really know what happened on the 13th of December, 2001 is rapidly shrinking. This fact may be of great comfort to those whose political ambitions require the combination of a hard posture against 'terrorism' in public together with a real effort to destroy or contaminate evidence about what has actually happened when spectacular cases of 'terrorism' have actually occurred. Now why would this be necessary, we might ask. Perhaps because the truth about December 13, may (and here, I am unashamedly speculating) be far more disturbing than every narrative we have been offered till now. I do not know what the Truth about December 13 is. What I do know is that the versions that we have been given by the security apparatus, which are now repeatedly touted by the BJP and about which the Congress and every other political party is silend, is not the truth. For us to get to the bottom of December 13 (and perhaps more) at least some ghosts would have to talk. And ordinarily, dead men tell no tales. Meanwhile, the theatre of bombings, spittings and televised indignation can continue. best, Shuddha ___________________________________________ UPDATED And EDITED Excerpt from 'Translation, Guilt, Innocence and Two Cups of Coffee'. As someone who happens to have followed the trial that is being referred to ('The Parliament Attack/13 December' Case) quite closely over the last several years, as regular readers on this list will no doubt recall, I think that I can lay a claim to more than a casual interest in the matter. The Geelani-Baiters' interpretation of a fragment of the trial proceedings, makes for interesting reading. But a word of caution, we would do well to dwell a little on the relationship between what was recorded, what was said in court, what was reported, and how it is now being interpreted by the 'forensic linguistics' division of Geelani-Baiters, before we jump to any conclusions, either about Sanjay Kak's purported dissimulation (the Geelani Baiters accuse him of mistranslating the key 'telephone intercept' that we discuss below) or about the Geelani-Baiters's motives in making these seemingly infinitely expanding series of allegations. I get a liitle concerned, perhaps even a little suspicious when I see allegations begetting allegations with such velocity aand with such with remarkable, and self-congratulatory, promiscuity. Let me first take the newspaper reports and articles that were quoted recently on a Geelani-Baiting blog post, titled 'A Lie Which Cheated the Courts' in a blog titled 'The Kashmir' - which Pawan Durani, and then Aditya Raj Kaul refer to, more than once - in their postings. http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/a-lie-which-cheated-the- courts/ The blog entry (and accompanying comments) basically say that - Sanjay Kak (and Sampath Prakash) 'mistranslated' the phrase that they render as 'Yeh Kya Korua' which occured in the conversation between SAR Geelani and his brother. The court, they say, was misled by their 'mistranslation' and hence, SAR Geelani was acquitted. Nested within this blog entry are four hyperlinks, two of which are relevant to the question at hand - 1. A report in the Hindu, Friday, May 02, 2003 ' Parliament attack case: HC questions prosecution version of arrests' http://www.thehindu.com/2003/05/02/stories/2003050202871300.htm and 2. Basharat Peer's essay in the Guardian - 'Victims of December 13', July 5, 2003 http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,990901,00.html (It is in the contents of Basharat Peer's essay that the Geelani- Baiters theory of 'mistranslation' finds its ammunition. Mind you, I am saying contents, not argument, because Basharat's argument runs entirely counter to the Geelani-Baiters version of the question of SAR Geelani's guilt or innocence, but that is not immediately important. I will analyse each of these stories in turn, examine how they are being read in the blog under discussion, look at some additional material, and then, I will turn to the publicly available court records of the case, to try and see if there is any sense in what Geelani-Baiters are saying. Let's get a few facts right first. The depositions made by Sanjay Kak and Sampath Prakash did not get SAR Geelani his acquittal. These depositions were made at the appelate proceedings at the High Court, and the High Court confirmed the sentence of death awarded to Geelani by the trial court. Sanjay Kak has pointed this out himself, in his posting on this list - the one in which he reprimands me for spoiling the party we are all having in watching the Geelani-Baiters hydra expose itself. The High Court confirmed the death sentence, even though it found the prosecution's arguments with regard to this particular phone intercept severely wanting (see below), while simultaneously dismissing the value of Sanjay Kak and Sampath Prakash's testimonies, not on the grounds of inadequate or faulty translation, but on the ground that they, being members of the All India Defence Committee for SAR Geelani, were not disinterested witnesses. SAR Geelani's acquittal at the Supreme Court too was not based on the testimonial contributions of Sanjay Kak or Sampath Prakash, but on the failure of the prosecution (including in the instance of the phone intercept) to show that they in fact had any concrete evidence against him. Perhaps the Geelani-Baiters are unaware of the fact that the Indian legal system (with the aberrant exception of the now repealed POTA) works with the assumption that it is guilt that needs to be proved, not innocence. Let us, for the sake of argument, assume that the Geelani-Baiters now realize their factual error in stating that it was Sanjay Kak's testimony that 'freed' Geelani, and focus next on intention rather than on consequences. Not in order to win or lose a legal wager, but in order to retain their terribly difficult and hard won position on the slippery slope of their self-assumed moral high ground. Then they would argue that it hardly matters whether or not Geelani was acquitted on the basis of these statements, what matters is that an attempt was made to mislead the court, and by extension, the people of India. This attempt (in their reading of reality) shows that Sanjay Kak, (and by association, those who stand by him) are indulging in dissimulation. Now this would be true if, a) the crux of SAR Geelani's purported guilt of innocence could logically be demonstrated to lie in the indisputable meaning of the words 'Yeh Kya Korua'. and, b)if the police/prosecution/Geelani-Baiters version/translation of the conversation were shown to be perfectly in concordance with and consistent with the context in which the conversation (of which, remember, the intercept is an imperfect recording) took place. Remember this, because this is going to be crucial when we look at the actual court record of how this was looked at in the Supreme Court, where the matter was finally decided on. But for now, let us stick first to the question of the quality of the telephone intercept as evidence, and secondly to the interpretations given to the words, 'Yeh Kya Korua' This is what the report on the Hindu (which is a report on the appelate trial proceedings in the High Court, not on the POTA Trial Court) that the 'Lies that Cheated the Courts' posting links to, has to say on the first of these two questions (the evidentiary quality of the intercept). This report, which Geelani-Baiters invoke but never detail, merits quotation at length, in fact, in its entirety. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- Parliament attack case: HC questions prosecution version of arrests The Hindu, Friday, May 02, 2003 http://www.thehindu.com/2003/05/02/stories/2003050202871300.htm By Our Special Correspondent [ NEW DELHI MAY 1. The two-judge bench of the Delhi High court, hearing appeals in the Parliament attack case, today closely questioned the Prosecution on its version of the arrests made in the case and the contradictions that it throws up. The Special Prosecutor, Gopal Subramanium, had told the court, quoting Delhi police's Investigating Officer, Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma, that the telephones of S.A.R. Geelani and Afsan Guru/Navjot Sandhu, had been tapped on December 13. Calls recorded on December 14 — between Geelani and his brother at 12.12 p.m. and between Afsan and her husband at 8 p.m. — pointed to their connection with the attack and suggested that Shaukat Hussain and one other person were in Srinagar. Geelani's house was put under surveillance on December 13 and December 14. He was arrested at around 10 a.m. on December 15 and Afsan Guru at 10.45 a.m. Information received from Afsan Guru about the registration number of the truck in which her husband was travelling was sent to Srinagar. On the basis of this, the truck was located at 8 a.m. on December 15 and Shaukat Hussain and Mohammed Afzal were arrested by 11.45 a.m. The Srinagar police officer, who made the arrests, stated in evidence that he received information about the truck's registration number at 5.30 a.m. on December 15. The defence has maintained that Geelani was arrested on December 14 at around 1 p.m. and Afsan between 6 and 6.30 p.m. Justice Usha Mehra asked Mr. Subramanium to explain the discrepancy in the evidence of the Delhi police (that the arrests were made after 10 a.m. on December 15 and information sent to Srinagar) and of the Srinagar police (that it acted on information received at 5.30 a.m.). ``If you go only by the clock, then the prosecution is not telling the truth'', Mr Subramanium said. The question related to the credibility of the witnesses. ``Your Lordships would have to be assisted to see which witness is believable''. Justice Mehra suggested that ``a lesser explanation'', such as the one offered by the defence that Geelani and Afsan were arrested on December 14, better suited even the prosecutions version of the arrests. She told Mr. Subramanium that if the court were to believe his witness, Mohan Chand Sharma, it would have to disbelieve the story of the arrests in Kashmir. Justice Mehra also pointed to other gaps in the Prosecutions story. Why did the police, which apparently acted with speed to ascertain phone details, intercept calls and mount surveillance on Geelani on December 13, not go to the evening college where he taught, even if only to get his description to help in his arrest? Given that the identity cards on the dead militants suggested a Kashmiri connection, why had the police, when intercepting calls, not considered that these might be in Kashmiri and engage a Kashmiri interpreter? How did the investigating officer who did not know Kashmiri and had admitted that the translation of the call involving Geelani was done after it was recorded, decide that it was the ``relevant'' one ? ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- Fortunately, unlike their lordships, we do not need much 'assistance' to see whether or not the Geelani-Baiters cohort, in their new found role as witness, prosecutor, judge and executioner combined are indeed 'credible'. Let us see why I think we don't need much assistance. The chronology spelt out by the above quoted report, which 'Lies that Cheated the Courts' unhesitatingly invokes, is very clear. When Geelani was arrested, (according to the prosecution) on the morning of December 15, no one in the Delhi Police, least of all Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma, knew what the contents of this infamous phone call was. Even though it is on this that the prosecution built so much of their argument. It had simply not yet been 'translated' for the police .In other words, if the meaning of 'Yeh Kya Korua' in this conversation was unambiguously - 'What did you all do' - and if it is true that this phrase referred to the attack on the Parliament - a fact on which hinged the suspicion that Geelani was involved in the December 13 incident, then, the police, while arresting him, had no clue as yet that this was indeed the case. They were arresting him for saying something that they had not yet known at that time that he had said. They had no other grounds for arresting him. His cell phone number was found on the phones recovered from the body of some dead men. That was all. [Aside: Consider this - it is possible that in some hours, I might be able to get Aditya Raj Kaul's cell phone number from somewhere, and feed it in the directory of my cell phone, or that in some hours, someone will key in Aditya's number into my cell phone. It is also possible that I am in fact a terrorist who is, in a few days,weeks, months, hours, who knows when - about to lead a suicide attack on a Cafe Coffee Day outlet because I really do not like the way they brew their coffee. It is possible, indeed more or less sure that I will die in this attempt. It is possible that my cell phone will then yield Aditya Raj Kaul's mobile number, (because I have either been dying to talk to him all along, or because someone has keyed in this number and put that phone on my dead body) and that then, Aditya Raj Kaul (who, it is true, I have been in regular touch with as a fellow subscriber on the Reader List, something my laptop will surely yield, and who is a 'Facebook Friend' of some of my 'Facebook Friends') will then be arrested and held for five years in solitary confinement, and be sentenced twice to death on the grounds that he was the terrorist mastermind of the 'All India and J&K Coffee Liberation Squad', of which I was a mere zombie underling, sent out to court death for the sake of better aroma for us all You get my drift: End of Aside] The depositions of the investigating officer in the case at the trial court are to the effect that there were other conversations, other intercepts. The depositions of the prosecution witness who translated the intercept, the fruit vendor Rashid Ali, and the man who actually did the interception both indicate that there was a great deal more that was said, and that again - there were other conversations. But the investigating officers chose to zero in on Geelani on the basis of these two minutes and sixteen seconds alone of a recording where the signal drops not once, but twice, without taking into account the intercepts of the other calls. But the fact remains that none of these intercepts were 'translated' or available in any form for the police to understand when the arrests were made. So how, then, did the police know which 'segment' of which recording of which intercept was relevant to their theory that Geelani was guilty, that he was in fact the mastermind? Secondly, the police officer concerned, was clearly not speaking the truth about the timing of the arrests, because if we are to believe his chronology of when Geelani and Afshan were arrested in Delhi, we have to disbelieve the actual time of arrest of Shaukat Hussain and Muhammad Afzal in Srinagar. If the Delhi police is truthful (Geelani suspect and arrest justified) then the Srinagar police is lying (thus Afzal innocent). Yet Afzal and Shaukat are the only key suspecst who have actually been found guilty. And if the Delhi police is lying (about the timing of Geelani and Afshan's arrest (because they get to Afshan only through Geelani) then the entire story falls apart. This is why, the phone intercept, is a basically a flawed piece of evidence. If we take it very seriously, then everything else falls apart in the case. Further, if we take the contents of the conversation to be a tacit admission of complicity, then something even more interesting occurs. If 'Yeh kya korua' can only mean 'what did you/you all do in Delhi' which in turn can only mean 'what did you/you all do, as in try to attack the Parliament in Delhi' then, the person who asks the question, that is Feizal, is clearly aware of what is going on. He would not be in a position to make a reference to an event that had just unfolded if he had not been aware of its imminent unfolding in advance. In other words, in order for Feizal to have asked a question which can only be read as a reference to the attack on Parliament, Feizal needs to have been in on the conspiracy. And yet, Feizal, who was investigated and questioned at length by the police has never been charged. There is no attempt to make a case against him. If Geelani is guilty because he 'knew', (and that is all we can surmise if we accept this postion, that he 'knew' because there is nothing else that can be said with regard to the man) then, according to the argument of the defeated prosecution case and the renascent forensic expertise of Geelani-Baiters, so must Feizal be guilty. Yet, no one has ever been able to pin anything on him. And yet the 'needle of suspicion' continues to quiver in the direction of SAR Geelani, at least in the arguments that Geelani-Baiters are making. Still, let us for form's sake, continue to try and take their position seriously. Let us actually go into the language of what is being said, and the context in which the conversation takes place. Basharat Peer's excellent article in the Guardian, the second and more apparently 'damning' revelation dredged up by the diligent Geelani-Baiter blog-soldiers actually says the following - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- "Giving evidence in court, Kak said, "The Kashmiri equivalent of 'What's happened?' is 'Yeh Kya Korua'. It is a generic term used for a range of ordinary circumstances, such as when a child spills a glass of milk or when there is snowfall or a marital dispute." The younger brother of the accused teacher had called simply to get a syllabus and a prospectus. He translated that portion of the call as: Receiver (accused teacher): "Tell me what you want?" Caller (his brother): "Syllabus and prospectus." (from Basharat Peer's article, cited and linked above) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Remember, Kak does not say that 'What's happened' is a *translation* of 'Yeh Kya Korua'. He says it is an *equivalent*. The word equivalent connotes a similarity of valence or value, not an identity. Equivalent is not identical. Equivalent means 'something approximating to another thing' not 'something identical with another thing'. But Kak does not stop here. He locates the phrase rendered as 'Yeh Kya Korua' in the context of how people might talk about events, idiomatically - as 'a generic term used for a range of ordinary circumstances'. Just as in Bengali, we might say 'E ki kando' (what's been done/'Oh, what happenned') or 'E ki korlen' ('what did you do') to express - surprise, delight, pain, pleasure, irritation, wonder, astonishment and a whole gamut of expressions. Idiomatic language often contains expressions that might have a different import from their 'literal' meaning, and that may or may not refer to personalized interactions, but could even extend to general comments on nature and the cosmos, as a way of 'greasing' the levers of conversation. Such that a Bengali like me could say, very easily, to another Bengali 'e ki korlen' while looking up at the thundering sky, in a difficult to translate idiomatic move that includes in its ambit, not just the other person, but also the sky god Indra as well . Sampat Prakash's testimony in the trial court also includes several examples of the diversity of ways in which the phrase, "Yeh Kya Korua' might be deployed in ordinary conversation between two Kashmiris who were on familiar but respectful terms with one another. But I digress, it is not references to natural phenomena that we are discussing here. The question of context becomes all the more important if we look at the entire contents of the conversation - which is about a syllabus, a prospectus and a host of other humdrum matters, some of which are referred to not explicity, but implicitly.. Actually, it is interesting to read the entire conversation. And you can read it as a downloadable pdf, in romanized Kashmiri and English, in no place other than Sarai Reader 04 - Crisis Media (page 158) on the page facing the beginning of Nandita Haksar's article 'Tried by the Media': The SAR Geelani Trial. The pdf file is available for free download, like the entire contents of all Sarai Readers at http://www.sarai.net/publications/readers/04- crisis-media Read it carefully, and you will see that on line 15 there is a statement (after static noise) by Faizal, Geelani's brother which reads, in mixed Kashmiri and Hindustani - "meh vonmus 'hota hai' " - which translates as "I said it happens (hota hai)". This is preceded by polite, near phatic preliminaries of a totally casual nature, and followed by an enquiry about a prospectus, at the end of which, Faizal asks, "Yeh kya korua". To which Geelani responds by asking "Kya?Dilli ha" ('What?In Delhi?) and Faizal asks again, "Dilli Kya Korua". it is here that the words "Kya Korua" are located. Indeed, they can mean 'what did you do', or 'what happenned' depending on how you choose to read them, because neither reading is incorrect or antagonistic, even if one is more exact and the other is idiomatically apposite. In fact, if you do read them as 'what did you/ you all do' too, there is room for ambiguity, because the query could be about people in the plural, or as correctly hinted at, even in part by Rashneek, as a - second person singular respectful, (not plural) past perfect continuous question. Whichever way you choose to read it. it must be read in conjunction with the "hota hai" that has preceded it by second. And once you do that, there is no getting away from the fact that the query refers to a situation, a general state of being, rather than to a concrete event. ' Even the prosecution has never really challenged the reading of 'Kya Korua' as a reference broadly suggesting 'What;s happenned'. This is clear from another report in the Hindu. One which Geelani-Baiters neglect to invoke, but I am quite happy to pull out of my archive of news reports of the 13 December trial. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------- Dec. 13 case: tape of phone intercept played in court The Hindu, Tuesday, May 06, 2003 By Our Special Correspondent http://www.thehindu.com/2003/05/06/stories/2003050604181200.htm NEW DELHI MAY 5. The tape-recorded telephone intercept, which was the mainstay of the prosecution's case against S.A.R. Geelani during the trial of the Parliament attack case, was today played for the Delhi High Court bench hearing the appeals. The prosecution has maintained that the tape contains the question, put to Mr. Geelani by his brother, "what happened in Delhi'' to which he laughs and replies "yeh che zaroori (this was necessary)''. Having heard the tape, Justice Nandrajog said that he had not heard "yeh che zaroori''. Justice Usha Mehra asked the Special Prosecutor, Gopal Subramanium, if this evidence was the core of the evidence against Mr. Geelani. "I am not putting all my eggs in the basket of that intercepted call,'' he replied. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- Things get a little complicated for the Geelani-Baiters theory here. This newspaper report seems to suggest that even the prosecution refers to the question 'Yeh Kya Korua' as 'What's happenned in Delhi'. The judge does not disagree. Since according to Geelani- Baiters, rendering 'Yeh Kya Korua' as anything like 'What's happenned' is a sure sign of the fact that the person found doing so is in cahoots with terrorists, and must be a paid agent of JKLF, we have to arrive at the conclusion that not only Sanjay Kak and Sampath Prakash, but also the Special Prosecutor Gopal Subramaniam who tried so hard to get Geelani to hang, as well as the honorable justices Nandrajog, Mehra and Dhingra, must be, according to this theory, in league with terrorism and the paid mercenaries of JKLF or some other 'tanzeem'. If Geelani-Baiters had the patience to go through the trial proceedings they would know that shortly after the hearing in which the whole telephone intercept argument is explored, the court calls upon Defence Witness #5, Aarifa Geelani, SAR Geelani's wife, who tells the court that the telephone conversation conains delicate and discreet references made between the brothers ('hota hai', 'yeh kya korua') to the fact that Geelani and his wife were at that time quarrelling about when they should be visiting Kashmir. That Aarifa's mother in law, Geelani's mother, had asked her son, Feizal, Geelani's brother, to enquire about why Aarifa was not coming up to Kashmir to visit them as was planned and to ask if everything was all right at home in Delhi, and so on. Of course, Geelani-Baiters don't do boring things like detailed reading of court transcripts, because they would then know that Aarifa's testimony passes without adverse comment in the court room. Doing that requires more than punching messages and scoring points on Blackberries, and then giving each other virtual congratulary back- slaps. it requires slow, patient reading. It requires hard work at the careful knitting together of an argument before even daring to make the hint of an accusation. But Geelani-Baiters wouldn't waste their time doing that, would they, becasue that would inhibit their capacity to post rapid fire slander. They would much rather spend their time making random links to newspaper reports and articles that they haven't read or digested, and then, on the basis of these links, scream 'murder' on our list. It is so much more exciting to deceive yourself and the world, acquiring in the process a momentary flash of internet fame, than it is to actually undertake a patient reading of a judicial record. Things actually get a lot more complicated for Geelani-Baiters if we realize that the real controversy in the testimony as it unfolds through the depositions of defence and prosecution witnesses is not about the meaning of 'Yeh Kya Korua' at all (about which there is no real debate in the court room) but about whether or not an expression rendered as "yeh che zaroori" in the police transcript of the recording is actually audible or not in the tape. The edifice of the police and the prosecution's case is actually entirely built on the purported presence of the words "yeh che zaroori" immediately following the exchange between the two brothers that are rendered as "yeh kya korua"..."dilli ha", ..."dilli kya korua" The police, in its deposition maintained that the words "yeh che zaroori" translated in the charge sheet as "yeh kabhi kabhi zaroori hota hai" or, "this becomes necessary at times"( accompanied by laughter) is indicative of the fact that Geelani was somehow justifying the attack on the parliament. Even if we accept, theoretically, that "Yeh kya korua" refers to a concrete occurence, that is the attack on the parliament, we have no way of knowing what Geelani thinks about that occurence unless we have in hand something like "yeh che zaroori". We are not, in other words in a position to form a reliable theory of mind vis a vis Geelani and his response to the attack on the parliament. We are not in a position where we can know anything about guilt, innocence or complicity unless we know what Geelani's explicitly expressed opinion on the occurence. This is possible only if we can pull out an expression like "yeh che zaroori" from our bag of tricks. The problem is, no one, till date, neither prosecutor, nor defence, nor judge, nor expert technical witness brought in by the prosecution, has ever been able to hear anything remotely like the words "yeh che zaroori" in the recording. This is what the High Court commented found necessary to say in paragraph 346 of its ruling while discussing whether or not it heard the words "yeh che zaroori". "During the hearing of the appeal, we had called for the tape from Malkhana and in the presence of the parties played the same. Indeed the voice was so inaudible that we could not make head or tail of the conversation. We tried our best to pick up the phonetical sounds where there was a dispute as to what words were used, but were unable to do so. Testimony of Prosecution Witness # 48 reveals that he could not analyse the talk as it was highly inaudible. Prosecution Witness # 48 is a phonetic expert. If he could not comprehend the conversation in a clearly audible tone, the probability of ordinary layman picking up the phonetic sounds differently cannot be ruled out. The prosecution witness, PW #71, Rashid, who prepared a transcript of the tape is fifth class pass and it was not his profession to prepare transcript of taped conversation. The possibility of his being in error cannot be ruled out. Benefit of doubt must go to the defence." And the reason why they have not been able to hear the recording is the fact that the sounds that make up those words are simply not there. What we have instead is digital noise, a dropped signal, auditory degradation - something quite common in recordings of cellular phone taps, which always suffer in audio recording quality in comparison to the signal level of the actual conversation. We might recall at this time that throughout the POTA trial court proceedings, which preceded the High Court trial, the police and the prosecution did not find it necessary to produce the actual audio- recording as evidence, even though they declared from every media roof top, that they had conclusive evidence about Geelani's complicity in the contents of that very recording. They produced instead a transcript of a translation, done after the arrest, days after the recording, by a person, who happenned to be a Kashmiri fruit vendor whose working knowledge of Hindi or English was demonstrably not adequate to the task of translation. Geelani has insisted in every statement made by him, at every stage of the trial, that the words "yeh che zaroori" represented an interpolation in the transcript of the recording. But it took the inability of anyone to hear the words in the judges chamber during the trial in the high court for it to be admitted that the three crucial words, were in fact, simply not said. It is not surprising therefore that the public prosecutor was candid in saying that he 'did not want to put all his eggs in the intercept basket'. But clearly, the Geelani-Baiters division of forensic linguistics and spin doctoring possess a far higher level of legal acumen than the special prosecutor who tried so hard to get Geelani the death penalty. They want to put their eggs, their chicken, the vegetable matter between their ears and all their rhetorical heavy spices into the basket of the telephone intercept - a piece of evidence that everyone acknowledges as being degraded by confabulation. They are not content at doing just that, they are also able to shift the weight of evidence from a statement whose existence is found to be wanting to a statement whose interpretation actually provokes no controversy. And so, the translation, interpretation or rendition of 'Yeh Kya Korua' which establish nothing either way, become, in their eyes, (or should I say ears) more important than the lynchpin of the prosecution's argument. Geelani-Baiters deserve to be recognized not just as champions in wasting this lists time and energy in the pursuit of one red herring after another, but also as highly creative, wildly imaginative legal analysts. Their abilities in this regard surpass the best brains of the Special Cell of the Delhi Police, which has provided us with such a shining example of probity and integrity throughout the course of the 13 December trial. Epilogue: Stray Thoughts on Audio Recording and Translation ...I spent this evening (this refers to the evening before I wrote this on the 1st of August 2007) talking separately to two friends, very different people, before sitting through the night to write this posting. One was a sound recordist and engineer with a special interest in the auditory qualities of mobile phone devices, an inventive, cheerful and curious person who is passionate about the properties of of sound and the craft of sound recording. The second was a person who teaches a foreign language in Delhi university, someone whom I have known for the last six years, and whom I have had several regular but occasional conversations that I always find personally rewarding. I asked the first person whether a set of significant sounds, say three words, could be retrieved from the auditory black hole of digital noise in a recording of a mobile phone conversation. She said "no, a digital auditory black hole is a digital auditory black hole. Once a signal passes below the threshold of audibility and recognition due to the interference of noise, it cannot be retrieved by 'cleaning up' the recording". In other words, there are next to no chances of the recovery of words that might or might not have been said from under the patina of digital noise in a recording. Ambient noise can be cleaned, provided there is a sufficient sample of ambient noise available for a detailed acoustic analysis to be done, which in turn would help in eliminating the interfering frequencies, and so 'recover' the lost sound. But a mobile phone conversation is a digital signal, and a phone intercept of a mobile phone conversation is a degraded digital signal, and with a less than quality signal to noise ratio, in other words, more noise, less signal. These degradations are usually irreparable. For all practical purposes, we might as well assume that whatever may be underneath the corroded patch of signal, is non existent. The words 'yeh che zaroori' will never be found, even if we look for them. Unfortunately, words let loose in spite, or in anger, on an electronic list, rarely if ever go into a digital black hole. They stay orbiting the ether for a long time, bouncing across continents in forwards, replies and rejoinders. Everything Geelani-Baiters said on this list is going to stay, and it is their problem as to how they will live with the endless google searches that will turn up their fabrications, time and time again. Archived lists have cruel and unforgiving memories, I hope that before the next time anyone hits 'send' on a mail written in undue haste, they remember this simple fact. After I met the sound engineer friend, who is by nature shy and reticent, and wishes to remain nameless, I went to another rendezvous,this time with the language teacher. We talked of many things, and one of the things we talked about, was the fact that while the narration of an offence or a misdemeanour always translates easily in a courtroom, and then in society at large, as guilt, it remains very difficult to translate innocence. When someone does something wrong, or is seen as doing something wrong, you can always find words to give form to what they have done, or to what you think they have done. On the other hand, when someone has done nothing, it becomes very difficult to find words to give substance to this absence of an action. How can you sculpt a form and a shape out of the negation of a form or a shape? That is why innocence is difficult to translate in any language. That is why it is so easy for us to point fingers at others. Words of accusation fall off the tip of our tongues, or our fingers, like acid rain. We spoke in a comfortable mix of Hindustani and English, switching from one language to another as if they were playmates. I gave examples about how one might say 'E ki kando' in Bengali, he talked about the occasions when one might say 'Yeh ki Korua' in Kashmiri. We had several cups of coffee. We talked about the difficulty of translating silences in any language. We parted promising to lend each other books that we had talked about in the course of the conversation. This friend speaks Kashmiri at home, teaches Arabic in the university, and has had to think, due to a continuing set of circumstances, long and hard, harder than anyone I know, about truth, translation, guilt and innocence. His name is Syed Abdul Rahman Geelani. --------- P.S. : For reasons of convenience and contextual consistency, I have replaced the unfortunate abbreviation 'A.R.K.P', which featured in the earlier expanded version of the above text with the generic term 'Geelani Baiters' standing for all those who continue baiting us (and SAR Geelani) with the spectre of his apparent culpability in the '13 December' case. A.R.K.P was a portmanteau expression coined by me, (admittedly not in the best of taste, in hasty response to another unfortunate acronym hurled in my general direction) from the first names of four list members, who were taking a strong line adversarial to my understanding on issues to do with Kashmir at that time. Much water has flowed down the Reader List since the time that this was written, and I am happy to say that I no longer need to use the expression A.R.K.P, especially as I no longer find it either just, or necessary to club K with A, R and P. Hence, I have replaced the term 'A.R.K.P' with the expression 'Geelani-Baiters' for reasons of textual convenience. Shuddha --------------- END From jo at turbulence.org Fri Nov 7 22:36:41 2008 From: jo at turbulence.org (Jo-Anne Green) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Campaign for Sustainability Message-ID: <068c01c940fb$3d925920$b8b70b60$@org> Dear Friends, Our annual Fundraising Campaign begins now. Once again, we need your support. 2008 was our most active year yet. We launched 30 COMMISSIONED works on Turbulence.org and Networked_Music_Review; co-presented two exhibitions - MIXED REALITIES (with Ars Virtua and Huret & Spector Gallery) and LUMENS (with Greylock Arts and MCLA Gallery 51); co-presented two symposia - FLOATING POINTS 5: MIXED REALITIES (with Emerson College) and PROGRAMMABLE MEDIA II: NETWORKED_MUSIC (with Pace Digital Gallery); co-presented UPGRADE! BOSTON (with Massachusetts College of Art and Design); and participated in Upgrade! International: CHAIN REACTION (Skopje Macedonia). What You Can Expect In 2009 1. NETWORKED: A (NETWORKED_BOOK) ABOUT (NETWORKED_ART): we are breaking ground once again with this innovative project that received a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts. Currently underway is an international competition in which five writers will be commissioned ($3,000 US each) to develop "chapters" that will be open for revision, commentary, and translation by online collaborators. http://turbulence.org/networked 2. FLOATING POINTS 6: GAME OF CULTURE | ART OF GAMES: the sixth in our annual speaker series with Emerson College, this will be a day-long symposium with world-renowned speakers. We will also be screening Marcin Ramocki's 8 BIT documentary (March 20-21). 3. PACE DIGITAL GALLERY (New York): three new works by New York artists commissioned especially for this exhibition (spring). 4. UPGRADE! BOSTON: now in its 5th year, our monthly speaker series continues at Massachusetts College of Art and Design. 5. TURBULENCE.ORG: new commissions, new works launched. 6. NETWORKED_PERFORMANCE and NETWORKED_MUSIC_REVIEW: we will continue to bring you news, interviews, projects, events, and publications of interest. If you value these resources and wish to have access to them in the future PLEASE MAKE A DONATION NOW! (tax deductible for US residents). No amount is too small! Pay via the PayPal button on the Turbulence homepage: http://turbulence.org. Or send a check to New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., 124 Bourne Street, MA 02131. Thanks for your generous support. Warm Regards, Jo-Anne Green and Helen Thorington Co-directors New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Nov 8 20:40:19 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:40:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?RFUgYWxsb3dzIOKAmHNlbWluYXLigJkgYmxhc3Rp?= =?utf-8?q?ng_Govt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> <252326.12165.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5c5369880811080700q6d37d9a7saa5fe40ccd3850f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30811080710r7058668fw15d38094b4ecf72a@mail.gmail.com> Kshmendra Kaul is basically saying that as he enjoys his Rights, he must therefore follow the Duties. However, the Constitution says that the Duties are not mandatory or legally enforceable. They are like the Directive Principles - advisory in nature. Denial of rights, however, can be challenged in the Supreme Court. On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > This post from Kshemendra Kaul imagines an interesting formulation of > 'rights' under the Indian constitution. > Do those who don't owe allegience to the Indian constitution have no > rights under Indian law? > Is the right to free spech in India limited only to those who accept > the primacy of its Constitution? > Let's flip the omlette: as a vistor to the US, am I expected to zip my > lips and be silent about the criminal record of the US Government, and > should I be expected to swear by the US constitution while I am there? > Tough, politically schizophrenic world imagined here... > Sanjay Kak > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Whether SAR Geelani is innocent or guilty of the crime he has been accused of is not within my competence to comment on. >> >> As a rule I believe that a person is 'innocent' until proven 'guilty' by due processes of Law. >> >> Even as I am aware that indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution' (of which there seem to be many examples in India) might help a 'guilty one' escape his/her guilt being established, yet I would rather have a 'guilty one' escape rather than an 'innocent one' be wrongfully declared 'guilty' by such indifferent or flawed or prejudiced/corrupted 'prosecution'. >> >> The 'guilt' of SAR Geelani has not been proven. Under the Constitution of India he is 'innocent' unless otherwise proven. >> >> As of today, SAR Geelani has the same Rights as any other 'free' citizen of India, including the "Right of Speech". >> >> In this context it is hoped that SAR Geelani, as a citizen of India, while receiving such and other "Rights" under the Constitution of India accepts his "Duties" under the Constitution of India and accepts the primacy of the Constitution of India for any citizen of India and in India which includes the State of J&K. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: >> >> From: Shivam V >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >> To: "Appu Esthose Suresh" >> Cc: "sarai list" >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:34 PM >> >> You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: >> http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf >> >> It has pictures of the spitting incident. >> >> It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his >> right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the >> Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not >> convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to >> speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). >> >> There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan >> Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied >> their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the >> list administrator. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> o o o >> >> >> November 4, 2006 >> HT Correspondent >> New Delhi, November 07, 2008 >> First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) >> Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) >> >> Ugly scenes mar DU seminar >> >> A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi >> Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. >> The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the >> presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and >> at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. >> >> Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi >> University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma >> damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on >> 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting >> the programme briefly. >> >> The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's >> North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, >> chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. >> >> "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in >> the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even >> approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," >> said Sharma. >> >> The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and >> detained the activists. >> >> The University Community –– an independent group of students and >> teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the >> violence. >> >> "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided >> with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the >> guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, >> student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. >> >> To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts >> Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. >> >> In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing >> a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were >> increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick >> mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to >> Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement >> said. >> >> Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and >> debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a >> community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the >> meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani >> said. >> >> DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. >> "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said >> Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. >> >> Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they >> vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri >> protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. >> History (Honours) syllabus. >> >> http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 >> >> (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh >> wrote: >>> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every >>> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >>> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" >> ("interactive >>> session" where venom was spewed on the >>> >>> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >>> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is >>> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified >> manner >>> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, >> was >>> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >>> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >>> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must >> write a >>> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case >> you >>> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >>> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >>> >>> >>> >>> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >>> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >>> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't >> let >>> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports >>> on vandalism in DU. >>> >>> >>> >>> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did >>> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >>> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what >> did >>> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked >> the >>> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the >> "nationalist >>> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for >> Terrorism will >>> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >>> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I >> got >>> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >>> involvement in Malegaon. >>> >>> >>> >>> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >>> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >>> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >>> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >>> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >>> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a >> Kashmiri >>> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse >>> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay >> if >>> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' >> a >>> terrorist when is been acquitted? >>> >>> >>> (*To be continued…………*) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >>> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>>> But Hindus.. >>>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>>> terrorist... >>>> >>>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack >> and >>>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and >> greater >>>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>>> >>>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put >> 'Tika' on >>>> their forehead... >>>> >>>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call >> yourself >>>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> To: sarai list >>>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; >> Geelani is star >>>> speaker >>>> >>>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>>> >>>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>>> >>>> The Daily Pioneer >>>> >>>> Link - >>>> >>>> >> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>>> * >>>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in >> India, take on >>>> ABVP 'goons'* >>>> >>>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed >> on the >>>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known >> anti-national — SAR >>>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was >> hero-worshipped. >>>> >>>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>>> Faculty >>>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed >> by >>>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in >> the >>>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. >> Geelani >>>> was >>>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and >> Reality', >>>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>>> >>>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of >> national >>>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and >> letting >>>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the >> Government >>>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me >> later >>>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in >> the 2003 >>>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. >> He >>>> said >>>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of >> democracy in >>>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of >> corruption," he >>>> said. >>>> >>>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments >> of DU, >>>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long >> Live" and >>>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two >> working journalists >>>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia >> Islamia, >>>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the >> Students' >>>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>>> >>>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>>> "Inquilab >>>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>>> fascism." >>>> >>>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, >> was >>>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>>> teacher >>>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising >> 'a talk'. >>>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet >> Singh >>>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their >> talk in >>>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. >> The meeting, >>>> however, went on. >>>> >>>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar >> room >>>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande >> Mataram'. An activist >>>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying >> 'shame, >>>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, >> chairs and the >>>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued >> despite >>>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> mail at shivamvij dot com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From thehindu at web1.hinduonnet.com Sun Nov 9 08:24:46 2008 From: thehindu at web1.hinduonnet.com (thehindu at web1.hinduonnet.com) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:24:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Article from The Hindu: Sent to you by TaraPrakash Message-ID: <200811090254.mA92skaA032216@web1.hinduonnet.com> ============================================================= This article has been sent to you by TaraPrakash ( taraprakash at gmail.com ) ============================================================= Source: The Hindu (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2008/11/09/stories/2008110959951100.htm) Front Page    Ulema, Muftis ratify fatwa against terrorism Special Correspondent “No relation whatsoever between Islam and terrorism. They are poles apart” Photo: Mohammed Yousuf Clear message: Rajya Sabha MP Maulana Syed Mahmood Madni (third from left) reading out the fatwa against terrorism issued by Darul Uloom, Deoband. To his left is Moulana Marghub Ur Rahman, Rector, Darul Uloom, who signed the fatwa. — Hyderabad: In a significant move, about 6,000 ulema and Muftis from different parts of India on Saturday ratified the fatwa against terrorism issued by the Darul Uloom Deoband, the renowned seminary and Islamic academic centre. “There is no relation whatsoever between Islam and terrorism. The two are poles apart.” That is the message the ulema sent out at the two-day, 29th national session of the Jamaiat-Ulama-i-Hind, which began here on Saturday. Jamiat leaders heading different State branches affixed their signatures endorsing the fatwa issued by grand mufti Habibur Rehman. “Islam rejects all kinds of unjust violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder and does not allow it in any form. Cooperation should be done for the cause of good but not for committing sin or oppression,” the fatwa declared. The Jamiat is expected to adopt resolutions against terrorism, communal riots, the U.S. aggression in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, and Qadiyani and Christian activities, and on national integration, reservation for Muslims, the Sachar Committee report on the condition of Muslims, Islamic identity and social reform at a public meeting on the Nizam College grounds here on Sunday. A large number of ulema, including Jamiat president Maulana Qari Mohammad Usman Mansoorpuri, and Maulana Marghoob-ur-Rehman, Rector, Darul Uloom, arrived here by a special train “Shaikhul Hind Express”from Deoband. In his presidential remarks, Maulana Mansoorpuri said terrorism was the most serious problem facing the country. The most unfortunate thing was that, on the one hand, the acts of a few misguided elements were being linked to Islam and, on the other, a distorted picture of Islam and its Prophet was being presented. Both the print and electronic media were being used to spread misunderstanding and falsehood about Islam. He urged the media to distinguish between a suspect and an accused and not to brand anyone terrorist before the court verdict was out. “We have no love for offenders whichever religion they might belong to. Our concern is that innocents should not be targeted and the career of educated youth not ruined. The government should ensure transparency in investigation.” Quoting Koranic verses, Maulana Mansoorpuri explained how Islam preached universal love and brotherhood and stressed cordial interpersonal relationship with fellow countrymen. Islam attached the utmost respect for human life and termed unjust killings a great sin. “Whatever faith one professes, the Koran calls for honouring and safeguarding every human being,” Maulana Mansoorpuri said. The teacher of Hadith at Deoband said terrorism was not the problem of one community but of the country, and everyone should join hands to tackle it. Maulana Mansoorpuri urged Muslims to follow the Shariat in letter and in spirit lest they become a tool for harming the religion more than others. “Threat to society” Rajya Sabha member and Jamiat leader Maulana Mehmood Madni said it was wrong to link terrorism with religion. Whoever indulged in acts of terrorism were ‘mad and lunatics’. Those who instigated violence in the name of religion and region posed a threat to the social fabric of society and should be dealt with with an iron hand. “The government should not have a dual policy when it comes to dealing with terrorists.” Earlier, Hakimuddin Qasmi presented the secretary report. Copyright: 1995 - 2006 The Hindu Republication or redissemination of the contents of this screen are expressly prohibited without the consent of The Hindu From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun Nov 9 11:46:29 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:16:29 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] An Open Letter to Ralph Nadar About His Dis to Obama Message-ID: <1F410FA3-9FEA-4C10-853E-45589F06B163@earthlink.net> Hip hop dis back at Nader! rollin' wit tha flava! Paul An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama By Davey D Davey D's Hip Hop Corner November 7, 2008 http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 Oh, Mr. Nader, in your bittersweet resentment of Barack Obama you have allowed your envy to dictate your action and called our first Black President-elect an "Uncle Tom", and allowed the enemy to call the kettle black. I can understand that as a revolutionary you may simply see just another Democrat taking the throne of an American presidency. You may think that he is an establishment leader and thus the change he brings is nothing more than temporary reform. You have chosen to focus on the tree instead of the forest so that you can continue to promote your own political agenda. When southern Blacks forced integration, they did not build black-only diners and then open them up to the whites. They walked into already established whites- only resturants and took a place at the table. The only way to revolutionize the establishment was to become a part of it and then redefine it with new institutions both tangible and abstract. And even when they played by the consitutional rules, they were still killed, beaten and broken down. You Mr. Nader may believe that your revolutionary stance and inclusive policy proposals allow you the right to critique this new Black president and his so- called "change" platform in the manner that you did. But you certainly never called any other president an "Uncle Tom." And quite frankly you sounded like the white boy who got invited to the house party and thought he was cool enough now to use the "N" word. And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. Your points were relevant when you questioned Obama's economic policies and voting record. However, when you decided to use a racial epithet to describe the type of man Obama might be should he not hold the corporate elite accountable, your ideas got lost in translation and you became a "racist. " You gave fodder to FOXNews, a white supremacist news network, to use against our movement and highlight a division that may or may not truly exist. Honestly, you are from an older generation that sees race in terms quite differently then my own generation. My generation, my people, Hip Hop culture, gave rise to this Black president because we understand that you must free your mind first and the rest will follow. Mr. Nader, come join our revolution. Let your fear go. Your time has passed you need to embrace the future. Krsta Keating of Revolutionize yo' Block From appu.es at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 11:48:18 2008 From: appu.es at gmail.com (Appu Esthose Suresh) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:48:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811061844l605cfab4i3693a0c429e19460@mail.gmail.com> <761372.12498.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4b1e36590811080320p3c147b56k52e0601872cb1f64@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b1e36590811082218j18b5f6b4v84ebcaf8523b54b7@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, I agree.....I sent very few postings in the list and two of that were on the spitting culture....it is hightime somebody ensures the civility for other members who wants to participate in fruitfull debates. regards Appu On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: > http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > > It has pictures of the spitting incident. > > It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). > > There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan > Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the > list administrator. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > > November 4, 2006 > HT Correspondent > New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > > Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > > A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > > Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi > University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting > the programme briefly. > > The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > > "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," > said Sharma. > > The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > detained the activists. > > The University Community –– an independent group of students and > teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > violence. > > "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided > with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > > To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > > In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing > a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement > said. > > Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a > community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > said. > > DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. > "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > > Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > History (Honours) syllabus. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > > (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh > wrote: >> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, >> every >> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" >> ("interactive >> session" where venom was spewed on the >> >> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he >> is >> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified >> manner >> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, >> was >> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must write >> a >> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case >> you >> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >> >> >> >> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't let >> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other >> reports >> on vandalism in DU. >> >> >> >> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court >> did >> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what >> did >> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked the >> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the "nationalist >> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for Terrorism >> will >> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I >> got >> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >> involvement in Malegaon. >> >> >> >> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a >> Kashmiri >> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right >> abuse >> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay >> if >> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' a >> terrorist when is been acquitted? >> >> >> (*To be continued…………*) >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>> But Hindus.. >>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>> terrorist... >>> >>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack >>> and >>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and >>> greater >>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>> >>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' >>> on >>> their forehead... >>> >>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call >>> yourself >>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>> To: sarai list >>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is >>> star >>> speaker >>> >>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>> >>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>> >>> The Daily Pioneer >>> >>> Link - >>> >>> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>> * >>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take >>> on >>> ABVP 'goons'* >>> >>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the >>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — >>> SAR >>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. >>> >>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>> Faculty >>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed >>> by >>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in >>> the >>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani >>> was >>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', >>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>> >>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national >>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and >>> letting >>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government >>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me >>> later >>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 >>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He >>> said >>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy >>> in >>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," >>> he >>> said. >>> >>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of >>> DU, >>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" >>> and >>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working >>> journalists >>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, >>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the >>> Students' >>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>> >>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>> "Inquilab >>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>> fascism." >>> >>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, >>> was >>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>> teacher >>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a >>> talk'. >>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet >>> Singh >>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk >>> in >>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The >>> meeting, >>> however, went on. >>> >>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar >>> room >>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An >>> activist >>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying >>> 'shame, >>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and >>> the >>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued >>> despite >>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 12:53:50 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:53:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811081024j5f924c03h769cfd4d53679a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811081024j5f924c03h769cfd4d53679a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811082323ge4bdbefpce44f816f7b1bdc2@mail.gmail.com> Strangely, Prakash Ray only has CDs/DVDs of one bent of mind. Why don't you have the CDs featuring the following: 1. Yasin Malik's acts of terrorism and killings of 'Kashmiri Pandits' in Kashmir. 2. Benazin Bhutto calling for 'Jihand' and 'Nizam - e - Mustafa' in Kashmir. 3. Bitta Karate's confession statement to a news channel, when he agrees of killing atleast 20 Kashmiri Pandits 4. Massacre in Wandhama, Nadimarg, Sangramporae, Gool, etc etc..... 5. Sanjay Kak's propaganda movie 'Jashn-e-aazadi' or else 'Aazadi baara-e-Islam" 6. S.A.R. Geelani, Afzal, Shaukat Guru etc on Parliament Attack. 7. Akshardham Temple Attack in Gujarat. 8. Ragunath Mandir Attck in Jammu, which happened twice. 9. Islamic Terrorists killing 'Amarnath pilgrims' for last so many years. 10. Demolition of Hundreds of Temples in Kashmir. Go and surrender, that would be better. Its not my Police, its our Police. This very sentence gives a view of your pervert and corrupt mindset and the way you have been brainwashed by your masters. You have sold your conscience....cheap indeed. ahaan ??? On 11/8/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, > > I have CDs/DVDs featuring: > > Demolition of the Babri Mosque > Gujarat Carnage 2002 > 9/11 attacks on WTC > Taliban killings people > US army torture prisoners > US forces killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan > Heroshima Bombings > Dr Binayak Sen > Bal Thakrey's nephew Raj Thakrey > Jan Adalat by Maoists > Violence in Nandigram > My marriage > Films made by Michael Moore > The Great Dictator by Chaplin > ...... > > Tell your police to arrest me...huh!! > > Prakash > > > * > > > * > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 13:02:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:02:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?DU_allows_=91seminar=92_blasting_G?= =?windows-1252?q?ovt=3B_Geelani_is_star_speaker?= In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811061844l605cfab4i3693a0c429e19460@mail.gmail.com> <761372.12498.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4b1e36590811080320p3c147b56k52e0601872cb1f64@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811080504q6159c5eq8d3619bf69a74e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811082332o618dffc9o146759493f0855ce@mail.gmail.com> shivam, there are journalists who are being paid by separatists in kashmir to write for azaadi cause ,also kashmir is a distribution ground for fake currency. I was wondering whether these paid up writers get fake currency in compensation. do u as a knowledgeable writer with interest in kashmir shed Some light. I am not saying u may be one of them,but ur knowledge on the subject may be interesting. Pawan jai andhra jai hindusthan On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: > http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > > It has pictures of the spitting incident. > > It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). > > There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan > Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the > list administrator. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > > November 4, 2006 > HT Correspondent > New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > > Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > > A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > > Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi > University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting > the programme briefly. > > The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > > "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," > said Sharma. > > The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > detained the activists. > > The University Community –– an independent group of students and > teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > violence. > > "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided > with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > > To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > > In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing > a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement > said. > > Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a > community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > said. > > DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. > "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > > Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > History (Honours) syllabus. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > > (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh > wrote: >> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every >> bit of it. I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" >> ("interactive >> session" where venom was spewed on the >> >> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is >> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified >> manner >> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, >> was >> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must write >> a >> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case >> you >> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >> >> >> >> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't let >> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports >> on vandalism in DU. >> >> >> >> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did >> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what did >> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked the >> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the "nationalist >> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for Terrorism >> will >> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I >> got >> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >> involvement in Malegaon. >> >> >> >> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a >> Kashmiri >> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse >> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay >> if >> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' a >> terrorist when is been acquitted? >> >> >> (*To be continued…………*) >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>> But Hindus.. >>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>> terrorist... >>> >>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack >>> and >>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and >>> greater >>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>> >>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' >>> on >>> their forehead... >>> >>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call >>> yourself >>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>> To: sarai list >>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star >>> speaker >>> >>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>> >>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>> >>> The Daily Pioneer >>> >>> Link - >>> >>> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>> * >>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take >>> on >>> ABVP 'goons'* >>> >>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the >>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — >>> SAR >>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. >>> >>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>> Faculty >>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by >>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the >>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani >>> was >>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', >>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>> >>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national >>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and >>> letting >>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government >>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me >>> later >>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 >>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He >>> said >>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy >>> in >>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," >>> he >>> said. >>> >>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of >>> DU, >>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" >>> and >>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working >>> journalists >>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, >>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the >>> Students' >>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>> >>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>> "Inquilab >>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>> fascism." >>> >>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, >>> was >>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>> teacher >>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a >>> talk'. >>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet >>> Singh >>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk >>> in >>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, >>> however, went on. >>> >>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar >>> room >>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An >>> activist >>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, >>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and >>> the >>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite >>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 13:02:54 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:32:54 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Message-ID: Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. >An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner November 7, 2008 http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 > > And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun Nov 9 13:10:25 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:40:25 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Message-ID: Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. > >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner >November 7, 2008 >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 > >> >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 13:37:17 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:37:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police Message-ID: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux Klanists, including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. Mr Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that it is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed whenever a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to point finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do wrong. When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political level) in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against certain people or actions. You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own medicine and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I repeat: Not in my name... Prakash From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 13:38:20 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:08:20 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure if you were being tongue-in-cheek regarding Elvis, but Ralph Nader is definitely Arab-American. During his first run, the press even made something of the fact that he was the first Arab-American Presidential candidate (thus making him another minority candidate after Jesse Jackson). Of course Nader's identity is as a consumer advocate, not as Arab American, and he himself rarely talks about it, so this never gets much play (nor does it have to, a man's free to identify as he likes). I agree that Nader calling Obama "Uncle Tom" is off the mark, and people are understandably riled by the comments, but Davey D's guest blogger calling Nader a "white boy" is also an incomplete reading. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. > > > >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama > >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner > >November 7, 2008 > >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 > > > >> > >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 14:14:12 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:14:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811090044x5fe04eccg29b10e627f60bf6a@mail.gmail.com> Dear 'Sanjay Kak's' Propaganda agent 'on pay roles of 'Yasin Malik', Kindly be a little mature while speaking. I'm not in this list because of you, nor will I leave so easily just because some other 'Prakash Ray' doesn't want me there. In a similar fashion that you have written, even I get sad, shocked, and agitated with the way: 1. Islamic Terrorists kill people of a certain community, and people like you remain silent. 2. Propagandist like SFI, AISA and now even some 'University Community' spread hatred, violence inside a central University, that too the 'Delhi University, quite openly. There are 1000 expmples to quote atleast. I won't waste my time on it. We don't belive in blackning of faces or spitting. Its a response by the common citizens to a sudden aimed provication. We have and will protest against all terrorists including Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate, S.A.R. Geelani, Afzal etc. We won't tolerate self styled 'secularists' and so called 'intellectuals' to project them as leaders and thinkers and parade them to seminars. It just can't happen. Its a open mockery of our constitution and the democracy. Try evicting us from the list. You Poor fellow can't even argue... Argument less 'Hindu Bashers'. Quite unfortunate. Continue ith this tirade. Each time you spread hatred, violence, fundamentalist thought.... a slap awaits you. Love.. On 11/9/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, > > > Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux Klanists, > including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its > screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. Mr > Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that it > is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed > whenever > a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever > Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or > molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to point > finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I > surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do > wrong. > > When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political > level) > in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, > hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against > certain people or actions. > > You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own medicine > and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. > > This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I > repeat: Not in my name... > > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun Nov 9 14:27:46 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 03:57:46 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Message-ID: Hi Naeem - I'm transferring at yet another airport (Vienna, on my way to Washington DC). I feel like Nader's 'Uncle Tom' comment, like Berlusconi's weird comment saying Obama has a brown suntan (it's all over the news here in Europe) is simply that these people are responding to an absurdly reductionist model of identity - exactly what Obama's mixed race heritage implodes. Why is it that such kind of comments come from major political figures in this day and age? I'm curious to see how this all unfolds. Even the Iraqi jihadi are celebrating the Obama victory http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/world/middleeast/08jihadi.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin Complexity is something Nader should be very aware of. I'm really disappointed to see him act like such an idiot 'whiteboy' (it's a hiphop term, no disrespect - uh, like Fox saying Obama giving someone a 'pound' is a 'terrorist fist jab' - it's just dumb. Paul Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >Not sure if you were being tongue-in-cheek regarding Elvis, but Ralph Nader >is definitely Arab-American. During his first run, the press even made >something of the fact that he was the first Arab-American Presidential >candidate (thus making him another minority candidate after Jesse Jackson). >Of course Nader's identity is as a consumer advocate, not as Arab American, >and he himself rarely talks about it, so this never gets much play (nor does >it have to, a man's free to identify as he likes). > >I agree that Nader calling Obama "Uncle Tom" is off the mark, and people are >understandably riled by the comments, but Davey D's guest blogger calling >Nader a "white boy" is also an incomplete reading. > > >On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > >> Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... >> >> Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> >> >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. >> > >> >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >> >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner >> >November 7, 2008 >> >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 >> > >> >> >> >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. >> >_________________________________________ >> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >Critiques & Collaborations >> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun Nov 9 14:32:34 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:02:34 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Message-ID: Ps, yes, I was joking about Elvis. Gotta get on my flight. I'm offline for 8hours. Paul Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >Not sure if you were being tongue-in-cheek regarding Elvis, but Ralph Nader >is definitely Arab-American. During his first run, the press even made >something of the fact that he was the first Arab-American Presidential >candidate (thus making him another minority candidate after Jesse Jackson). >Of course Nader's identity is as a consumer advocate, not as Arab American, >and he himself rarely talks about it, so this never gets much play (nor does >it have to, a man's free to identify as he likes). > >I agree that Nader calling Obama "Uncle Tom" is off the mark, and people are >understandably riled by the comments, but Davey D's guest blogger calling >Nader a "white boy" is also an incomplete reading. > > >On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > >> Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... >> >> Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> >> >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. >> > >> >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >> >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner >> >November 7, 2008 >> >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 >> > >> >> >> >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. >> >_________________________________________ >> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >Critiques & Collaborations >> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lists at shivamvij.com Sun Nov 9 14:44:32 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:44:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <6353c690811082323ge4bdbefpce44f816f7b1bdc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811081024j5f924c03h769cfd4d53679a5@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811082323ge4bdbefpce44f816f7b1bdc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811090114m401eeea1laa5b6a75f2b1e02b@mail.gmail.com> But what is your problem if one has DVDs of these or of anything? Who are you to decide what DVDs I will possess and I won't? On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Strangely, Prakash Ray only has CDs/DVDs of one bent of mind. > > Why don't you have the CDs featuring the following: > > 1. Yasin Malik's acts of terrorism and killings of 'Kashmiri Pandits' in > Kashmir. > 2. Benazin Bhutto calling for 'Jihand' and 'Nizam - e - Mustafa' in Kashmir. > 3. Bitta Karate's confession statement to a news channel, when he agrees of > killing atleast 20 Kashmiri Pandits > 4. Massacre in Wandhama, Nadimarg, Sangramporae, Gool, etc etc..... > 5. Sanjay Kak's propaganda movie 'Jashn-e-aazadi' or else 'Aazadi > baara-e-Islam" > 6. S.A.R. Geelani, Afzal, Shaukat Guru etc on Parliament Attack. > 7. Akshardham Temple Attack in Gujarat. > 8. Ragunath Mandir Attck in Jammu, which happened twice. > 9. Islamic Terrorists killing 'Amarnath pilgrims' for last so many years. > 10. Demolition of Hundreds of Temples in Kashmir. > > Go and surrender, that would be better. Its not my Police, its our Police. > This very sentence gives a view of your pervert and corrupt mindset and the > way you have been brainwashed by your masters. > > You have sold your conscience....cheap indeed. ahaan ??? > > > On 11/8/08, prakash ray wrote: >> >> Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, >> >> I have CDs/DVDs featuring: >> >> Demolition of the Babri Mosque >> Gujarat Carnage 2002 >> 9/11 attacks on WTC >> Taliban killings people >> US army torture prisoners >> US forces killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan >> Heroshima Bombings >> Dr Binayak Sen >> Bal Thakrey's nephew Raj Thakrey >> Jan Adalat by Maoists >> Violence in Nandigram >> My marriage >> Films made by Michael Moore >> The Great Dictator by Chaplin >> ...... >> >> Tell your police to arrest me...huh!! >> >> Prakash >> >> >> * >> >> >> * >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From lists at shivamvij.com Sun Nov 9 14:45:59 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:45:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <6353c690811090044x5fe04eccg29b10e627f60bf6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811090044x5fe04eccg29b10e627f60bf6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811090115y2fabc061q7620b3cbddd4f2d6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, When you aleege that someone is 'on [the] pay roles of 'Yasin Malik', I hope you have evidence to substantiate such allegations? Otherwise it amounts to defamation. best shivam On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Dear 'Sanjay Kak's' Propaganda agent 'on pay roles of 'Yasin Malik', > > Kindly be a little mature while speaking. I'm not in this list because of > you, nor will I leave so easily just because some other 'Prakash Ray' > doesn't want me there. > > In a similar fashion that you have written, even I get sad, shocked, and > agitated with the way: > > 1. Islamic Terrorists kill people of a certain community, and people like > you remain silent. > 2. Propagandist like SFI, AISA and now even some 'University Community' > spread hatred, violence inside a central University, that too the 'Delhi > University, quite openly. > > There are 1000 expmples to quote atleast. I won't waste my time on it. > > We don't belive in blackning of faces or spitting. Its a response by the > common citizens to a sudden aimed provication. > > We have and will protest against all terrorists including Yasin Malik, Bitta > Karate, S.A.R. Geelani, Afzal etc. We won't tolerate self styled > 'secularists' and so called 'intellectuals' to project them as leaders and > thinkers and parade them to seminars. It just can't happen. Its a open > mockery of our constitution and the democracy. > > Try evicting us from the list. You Poor fellow can't even argue... Argument > less 'Hindu Bashers'. Quite unfortunate. > > Continue ith this tirade. Each time you spread hatred, violence, > fundamentalist thought.... a slap awaits you. > > Love.. > > On 11/9/08, prakash ray wrote: >> >> Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, >> >> >> Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux Klanists, >> including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its >> screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. Mr >> Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that it >> is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed >> whenever >> a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever >> Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or >> molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to point >> finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I >> surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do >> wrong. >> >> When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political >> level) >> in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, >> hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against >> certain people or actions. >> >> You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own medicine >> and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. >> >> This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I >> repeat: Not in my name... >> >> >> Prakash >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From lists at shivamvij.com Sun Nov 9 14:51:36 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:51:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Article from The Hindu: Sent to you by TaraPrakash In-Reply-To: <200811090254.mA92skaA032216@web1.hinduonnet.com> References: <200811090254.mA92skaA032216@web1.hinduonnet.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811090121t540bca33td5adf0c8ad401f8d@mail.gmail.com> TaraPrakash, Thanks for forwarding this. Someone else has also posted it here. Some time ago Kshmendra Kaul was labouring the point that Muslims don't condemn Islamic terrorism. When given evidence to the contrary he did not respond. I hope he is satisfied now. best shivam On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:24 AM, wrote: > ============================================================= > This article has been sent to you by TaraPrakash ( taraprakash at gmail.com ) > ============================================================= > Source: The Hindu (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2008/11/09/stories/2008110959951100.htm) > Front Page >    > > Ulema, Muftis ratify fatwa against terrorism > > > > > Special Correspondent > > > > > “No relation whatsoever between Islam and terrorism. They are poles apart” > > > > > > > > Photo: Mohammed Yousuf > > > > Clear message: Rajya Sabha MP Maulana Syed Mahmood Madni (third from left) reading out the fatwa against terrorism issued by Darul Uloom, Deoband. To his left is Moulana Marghub Ur Rahman, Rector, Darul Uloom, who signed the fatwa. — > > > Hyderabad: In a significant move, about 6,000 ulema and Muftis from different parts of India on Saturday ratified the fatwa against terrorism issued by the Darul Uloom Deoband, the renowned seminary and Islamic academic centre. > “There is no relation whatsoever between Islam and terrorism. The two are poles apart.” That is the message the ulema sent out at the two-day, 29th national session of the Jamaiat-Ulama-i-Hind, which began here on Saturday. Jamiat leaders heading different State branches affixed their signatures endorsing the fatwa issued by grand mufti Habibur Rehman. > “Islam rejects all kinds of unjust violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder and does not allow it in any form. Cooperation should be done for the cause of good but not for committing sin or oppression,” the fatwa declared. > The Jamiat is expected to adopt resolutions against terrorism, communal riots, the U.S. aggression in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, and Qadiyani and Christian activities, and on national integration, reservation for Muslims, the Sachar Committee report on the condition of Muslims, Islamic identity and social reform at a public meeting on the Nizam College grounds here on Sunday. > A large number of ulema, including Jamiat president Maulana Qari Mohammad Usman Mansoorpuri, and Maulana Marghoob-ur-Rehman, Rector, Darul Uloom, arrived here by a special train “Shaikhul Hind Express”from Deoband. > In his presidential remarks, Maulana Mansoorpuri said terrorism was the most serious problem facing the country. The most unfortunate thing was that, on the one hand, the acts of a few misguided elements were being linked to Islam and, on the other, a distorted picture of Islam and its Prophet was being presented. Both the print and electronic media were being used to spread misunderstanding and falsehood about Islam. He urged the media to distinguish between a suspect and an accused and not to brand anyone terrorist before the court verdict was out. > “We have no love for offenders whichever religion they might belong to. Our concern is that innocents should not be targeted and the career of educated youth not ruined. The government should ensure transparency in investigation.” > Quoting Koranic verses, Maulana Mansoorpuri explained how Islam preached universal love and brotherhood and stressed cordial interpersonal relationship with fellow countrymen. Islam attached the utmost respect for human life and termed unjust killings a great sin. “Whatever faith one professes, the Koran calls for honouring and safeguarding every human being,” Maulana Mansoorpuri said. > The teacher of Hadith at Deoband said terrorism was not the problem of one community but of the country, and everyone should join hands to tackle it. Maulana Mansoorpuri urged Muslims to follow the Shariat in letter and in spirit lest they become a tool for harming the religion more than others. > > “Threat to society” > > > > Rajya Sabha member and Jamiat leader Maulana Mehmood Madni said it was wrong to link terrorism with religion. Whoever indulged in acts of terrorism were ‘mad and lunatics’. Those who instigated violence in the name of religion and region posed a threat to the social fabric of society and should be dealt with with an iron hand. “The government should not have a dual policy when it comes to dealing with terrorists.” > Earlier, Hakimuddin Qasmi presented the secretary report. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Copyright: 1995 - 2006 The Hindu > > Republication or redissemination of the contents of this screen are expressly > prohibited without the consent of The Hindu > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 14:52:45 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:22:45 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well Nader probably feels deeply isolated and like a lonely cassandra. When bush was still in power, there were many who would listen to him. But large segments of the nader left voted for obama. So there are probably electoral and political disappointments that give an extra edge to nader's fury. And that edge has led him to make the simplistic uncle tom statement. And davey d blogger is similarly losing it when calling nader white. Both sides are engaged in tone deaf one liners. Your use of quote marks gives an extra layer to the term. But the blogger on the other hand was not as layered, IMO. On the other hand nader is not only one to have been so careless. Jesse Jackson said he would "cut O's balls off." On 11/9/08, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Hi Naeem - I'm transferring at yet another airport (Vienna, on my way to > Washington DC). I feel like Nader's 'Uncle Tom' comment, like Berlusconi's > weird comment saying Obama has a brown suntan (it's all over the news here > in Europe) is simply that these people are responding to an absurdly > reductionist model of identity - exactly what Obama's mixed race heritage > implodes. Why is it that such kind of comments come from major political > figures in this day and age? I'm curious to see how this all unfolds. Even > the Iraqi jihadi are celebrating the Obama victory > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/world/middleeast/08jihadi.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin > > Complexity is something Nader should be very aware of. I'm really > disappointed to see him act like such an idiot 'whiteboy' (it's a hiphop > term, no disrespect - uh, like Fox saying Obama giving someone a 'pound' is > a 'terrorist fist jab' - it's just dumb. > > Paul > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > >>Not sure if you were being tongue-in-cheek regarding Elvis, but Ralph Nader >>is definitely Arab-American. During his first run, the press even made >>something of the fact that he was the first Arab-American Presidential >>candidate (thus making him another minority candidate after Jesse Jackson). >>Of course Nader's identity is as a consumer advocate, not as Arab American, >>and he himself rarely talks about it, so this never gets much play (nor >> does >>it have to, a man's free to identify as he likes). >> >>I agree that Nader calling Obama "Uncle Tom" is off the mark, and people >> are >>understandably riled by the comments, but Davey D's guest blogger calling >>Nader a "white boy" is also an incomplete reading. >> >> >>On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Paul D. Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... >>> >>> Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >>> >>> >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. >>> > >>> >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >>> >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner >>> >November 7, 2008 >>> >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 >>> > >>> >> >>> >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. >>> >_________________________________________ >>> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >Critiques & Collaborations >>> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>_________________________________________ >>reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>Critiques & Collaborations >>To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >>To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 14:55:25 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:55:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811090115y2fabc061q7620b3cbddd4f2d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811090044x5fe04eccg29b10e627f60bf6a@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811090115y2fabc061q7620b3cbddd4f2d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811090125x3cf4f7a7udfb85c6aac028231@mail.gmail.com> When you have guts and courage to allege that I or my initiative of RIK etc. has indulged in blackning of face, spitting, etc etc. even this amounts to defamation. Agree ? Kindly introspect...and Remember today is Sunday. and then only shoot mails.. On 11/9/08, Shivam V wrote: > > Dear Aditya, > > When you aleege that someone is 'on [the] pay roles of 'Yasin Malik', > I hope you have evidence to substantiate such allegations? Otherwise > it amounts to defamation. > > best > > shivam > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Dear 'Sanjay Kak's' Propaganda agent 'on pay roles of 'Yasin Malik', > > > > Kindly be a little mature while speaking. I'm not in this list because of > > you, nor will I leave so easily just because some other 'Prakash Ray' > > doesn't want me there. > > > > In a similar fashion that you have written, even I get sad, shocked, and > > agitated with the way: > > > > 1. Islamic Terrorists kill people of a certain community, and people like > > you remain silent. > > 2. Propagandist like SFI, AISA and now even some 'University Community' > > spread hatred, violence inside a central University, that too the 'Delhi > > University, quite openly. > > > > There are 1000 expmples to quote atleast. I won't waste my time on it. > > > > We don't belive in blackning of faces or spitting. Its a response by the > > common citizens to a sudden aimed provication. > > > > We have and will protest against all terrorists including Yasin Malik, > Bitta > > Karate, S.A.R. Geelani, Afzal etc. We won't tolerate self styled > > 'secularists' and so called 'intellectuals' to project them as leaders > and > > thinkers and parade them to seminars. It just can't happen. Its a open > > mockery of our constitution and the democracy. > > > > Try evicting us from the list. You Poor fellow can't even argue... > Argument > > less 'Hindu Bashers'. Quite unfortunate. > > > > Continue ith this tirade. Each time you spread hatred, violence, > > fundamentalist thought.... a slap awaits you. > > > > Love.. > > > > On 11/9/08, prakash ray wrote: > >> > >> Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, > >> > >> > >> Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux > Klanists, > >> including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its > >> screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. > Mr > >> Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that > it > >> is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed > >> whenever > >> a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever > >> Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or > >> molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to > point > >> finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I > >> surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do > >> wrong. > >> > >> When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political > >> level) > >> in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, > >> hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against > >> certain people or actions. > >> > >> You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own > medicine > >> and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. > >> > >> This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I > >> repeat: Not in my name... > >> > >> > >> Prakash > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > mail at shivamvij dot com > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 15:40:22 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 02:10:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] "Train Services Thrills Kashmir" Message-ID: <946501.61938.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 1 Pic and 2 News Reports   1. Pic at http://chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-10/11/content_7097186.htm   2. "Train services thrills Kashmir " at http://etalaat.com/english/News/front-page/3150.html   Etalaat News  Service Srinagar, October 12: On the first day of its commercial run in   Kashmir, hundreds of commuters travelled in rail today between various stations from Budgam to Anantnag.   The train chugged off from Budgam at 7.25 A.M. with 300 passengers on board who were excited to have the first experience of rail travel in the Valley. Another 400 commuters boarded the train to Anantnag on its journey back. The number of passengers kept swelling as the train touched the next stations. By the time it arrived in Srinagar, there was no vacant seat available in the 588-seat capacity train and a large number of passengers had to travel while keeping standing.   The train left the Anantnag station at 9.18 A.M. and arrived at Budgam at 10.50 A.M. The passengers - men, women and children - were highly enthusiastic about being among the first commercial passengers of the train that had been eagerly waited to run through the landscape of Kashmir. Many spoke about the joy and ecstasy they felt on being part of the history in making.   Manzoor Ahmad of Budgam who was the first to alight from the train at Wanpoh, Anantnag station said that he considered himself to be very lucky for being the first passenger to have de-boarded at the end of the first commercial run of the train in Kashmir. He was one of the 450 passengers who alighted from the 8 coaches at Wanpoh as the train completed the maiden commercial run.   In the second run of the day, 465 passengers de-boarded at Anantnag while 370 boarded the train there.   The train was flagged off by the Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh at Srinagar Railway Station yesterday with UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi, Governor, N. N. Vohra and Minister for Railway, Lalu Prasad Yadev witnessing the historic event.   Chief Area Manager, Srinagar  P. K. Gupta said that the rail service has reduced the travel time for commuters by more than half. "On the top of it", he said, "It is more comfortable than road travel". He said that from Anantnag to reach Budgam it would normally take two and a half hour by road but the distance is covered by train in an hour and six minutes only.   The passengers agree with him and also like the heating arrangements in the bogies. Riaz Ahmad of Nogam said that he had waited long for this momentous day to arrive and felt on cloud 9 to be on board the first commercial service.   Gupta believes that the enthusiasm shown by the people was more than he had expected. Going by the excitement it has generated among the local people, the train in the Valley is likely to be a major attraction and a preferred mode of public transport within Kashmir. The fact that the travel by train is more comfortable and less time consuming than road travel, it is bound to considerably increase the number of rail commuters in the Valley.   After all, who does not want to avoid being caught up in a traffic jam, especially when one has to reach office or home in time?   3. "First Train Runs In Kashmir Valley: History to Reality" at  http://www.groundreport.com/Arts_and_Culture/First-Train-Runs-In-Kashmir-Valley-History-to-Real   by  Santosh Kumar Agarwal    October 12, 2008   In an epoch making event, the Kashmir valley saw for the first time the flagging of a broad gauge train by the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, fulfilling partly, the dream project of former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpai, who declared the project as National Project in 2001. The Train would run 66 Kms from Rajwansher in Srinagar to Anantnag twice daily and back, taking 1 hour and 35 minutes one way.   Digging into history a bit, Maharaja Pratap Singh of Dogra hierarchy first contemplated a rail link to Srinagar in 1898. Starting with the first steaming of Railways in 1953, India already had more than 30000 miles of railways by the end of 19th Century. Although the plan of the maharaja could not be materialized at those times, the matter was revived after the partition in 1947 when Jammu got de-linked from the rest of the country. A 105Km rail link constructed and started operating between Pathankot-Jammu Tawi in 1970 at the behest of Indira Gandhi, who also kicked off the Jammu- Udhampur line in 1983 with a five-year completion schedule. But after her abrupt death, the 55 Km line could be commissioned only in 2004.   Back again with the main topic, amid tight security with an undeclared curfew in the valley and a ‘counter curfew’ by the separatists, the train was flagged off with 100 school children as first passengers. Dignitaries present were Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav, JK Governor N.N.Vora and other officials from rail and state governments, apart from the Prime Minister. The cheer people were significantly absent because of the prevailing situation in the Valley.   Railway minister Lalu Yadav, who has achieved the status of an icon for his success in turning around the Indian Railways from loss making entity to a proverbial hen laying golden eggs, was very happy saying, “It is a historic day for people of Kashmir who can travel now 66km by train.” But a land donor for this line had other things in mind when he expressed doubt about return of the elusive peace in the tormented valley in spite of the new railway era.   Work on this railway line was just a modest beginning, being a  small  part  of  the  overall  project  of  joining  Kashmir valley with rest of India. The most difficult part being the stretch between Katra in Jammu to Quazigund in valley, a distance of about 150Km including an 11 Km long tunnel to cross Pirpanjal Range and is likely to take five years to complete. The stretch Quazigund to Srinagar (about 75Km) and then to Baramula (50Km) is easier to construct, as most of the track would be on flat valley. If every thing goes on as per  planning,  one  can  expect to reach Srinagar directly by train  from  standard  railheads  in  India  in  about five years time.   Once completed, the 345 km Jammu-Srinagar-Baramula rail travel is likely to present the best scenic beauty in the world, along with the Houseboats and Sikaras of Dal Lake.     From lists at shivamvij.com Sun Nov 9 15:47:33 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:47:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Train Services Thrills Kashmir" In-Reply-To: <946501.61938.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <946501.61938.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811090217p682b88bfjb56cfc974d5f87e2@mail.gmail.com> A bridge too far Bhavna Vij-Aurora October 10, 2008 http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&issueid=68&id=17182&Itemid=1§ionid=36 Nearly a decade after work began on an ambitious plan to connect Kashmir's mountainous villages with the rest of the country by a railway link, it has come apart with Lalu Prasad Yadav's Ministry doing a sudden U-turn and abandoning work on the longest section between Katra and Qazigund. This section is the crucial part of the 346-km railway link. The Jammu-Udhampur section was completed in April 2005. Construction from the other end of the line has also made considerable progress but now it appears that they may never meet since the fate of the major connecting section is in limbo. It seems to have suddenly dawned on the Railway Board that the alignment of the 148 km-stretch is all wrong, and now they propose a relatively shorter (92 km) alternate alignment, based on "toposheet and satellite imageries". And who do they blame for the loss of Rs 2,000 crore and 10 years of hard work? "It was a political decision. In 2002, prime minister Vajpayee announced that Srinagar will be connected with the rest of the country through a railway line. We were forced to start the work without proper surveys," claims Railway Board Member (Engineering) S.K. Vij. "It was my decision to stop work. For four-and-a-half years that the work on the section has been going on, it is all wrong professionally and from the engineering point of view," he says. His statement is, however, refuted by engineers and experts. "What Vajpayee did was to declare it a national project and ensure that funds would be available. There is no point politicising the issue just because the Railways have messed it up," says an engineer with the project. S.P.S. Jain and R.R. Jaruhar, who supervised the work before Vij, counter the claim that the existing alignment is not feasible and also that work on the section had begun without proper surveys. "For the first time, the Railways used Digital Laser Terrain Modelling. Remote sensing and satellite imagery were used to get the exact alignment. It was mapped in great detail. Geological and seismic studies were conducted. Aerial surveys were also done. This was followed by physical surveys of most of the terrain," says a technical officer in the Railways. That it is a prestige project is evident by the fact that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh too has been tracking its progress. Alarmed by the turn of events, his office has asked for a status report on the project and reasons for stopping the work on the section. The decision to stop work has also invited queries from the Cabinet Secretariat, Planning Commission and the Finance Ministry. The Konkan Railway Construction Ltd (KRCL), incharge of the disputed section, and Indian Railway Construction Company, which is constructing the adjoining section, have told the Railways that they have no problems with the present alignment but the ministry has given written directions to KRCL not to commence any new work. The ministry's order says: "Other than the main road works, all works on the entire section with M/s KRCL be pended (sic) till further advice." Jaruhar says, "We knew right from the beginning that Katra-Qazigund section is not going to be easy. We had to cross the Chenab and tunnel through the Pir Panjal ranges. But technically, we knew it was possible. It still is. Minor changes in alignment have been made along the way, and more can be made. A completely new alignment is a waste of money and time." In fact, it can push the deadline for completion of the line to as late as 2025. Vij presents a more optimistic picture. "Not before 2015," he says. Restarting the work on new alignment would take another five to seven years since the process will have to begin from scratch. The plan, according to the Railways' engineering chief, is to get a geological survey of the new proposed alignment done and follow it up with an on-the-ground survey. Following that, tenders would be called and awarded, and only then would work recommence. "We are going to get a geological survey done by an Austrian expert at a cost of Rs 10 crore. Meanwhile, an expert committee has been constituted to study the alignments and take a view," Vij says. The committee is still to be cleared by the railway minister, however. Government sources say that, irrespective of the views of the committee, the Railways will have to go back to the Cabinet for any change in the alignment since it is a national project funded by the Government. Moreover, the line was envisioned more as a strategic and psychological project with international ramifications. The claims and counters only cloud the issue further. "The idea was to connect Kashmiris even in the remotest areas to the rest of the country. The new proposed alignment defeats the very idea. The existing alignment was chosen since it connects more than 50 villages, as against barely seven in the new one," says a senior bureaucrat. Whatever the eventual fate of the project, its diplomatic and political impact means that politics, and not economics, will cast the final vote. Till then, the project stays derailed. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > 1 Pic and 2 News Reports > > 1. Pic at http://chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-10/11/content_7097186.htm > > 2. "Train services thrills Kashmir " at http://etalaat.com/english/News/front-page/3150.html > > Etalaat News Service > Srinagar, October 12: On the first day of its commercial run in Kashmir, hundreds of commuters travelled in rail today between various stations from Budgam to Anantnag. > > The train chugged off from Budgam at 7.25 A.M. with 300 passengers on board who were excited to have the first experience of rail travel in the Valley. Another 400 commuters boarded the train to Anantnag on its journey back. The number of passengers kept swelling as the train touched the next stations. By the time it arrived in Srinagar, there was no vacant seat available in the 588-seat capacity train and a large number of passengers had to travel while keeping standing. > > The train left the Anantnag station at 9.18 A.M. and arrived at Budgam at 10.50 A.M. > The passengers - men, women and children - were highly enthusiastic about being among the first commercial passengers of the train that had been eagerly waited to run through the landscape of Kashmir. Many spoke about the joy and ecstasy they felt on being part of the history in making. > > Manzoor Ahmad of Budgam who was the first to alight from the train at Wanpoh, Anantnag station said that he considered himself to be very lucky for being the first passenger to have de-boarded at the end of the first commercial run of the train in Kashmir. He was one of the 450 passengers who alighted from the 8 coaches at Wanpoh as the train completed the maiden commercial run. > > In the second run of the day, 465 passengers de-boarded at Anantnag while 370 boarded the train there. > > The train was flagged off by the Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh at Srinagar Railway Station yesterday with UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi, Governor, N. N. Vohra and Minister for Railway, Lalu Prasad Yadev witnessing the historic event. > > Chief Area Manager, Srinagar P. K. Gupta said that the rail service has reduced the travel time for commuters by more than half. "On the top of it", he said, "It is more comfortable than road travel". He said that from Anantnag to reach Budgam it would normally take two and a half hour by road but the distance is covered by train in an hour and six minutes only. > > The passengers agree with him and also like the heating arrangements in the bogies. Riaz Ahmad of Nogam said that he had waited long for this momentous day to arrive and felt on cloud 9 to be on board the first commercial service. > > Gupta believes that the enthusiasm shown by the people was more than he had expected. > Going by the excitement it has generated among the local people, the train in the Valley is likely to be a major attraction and a preferred mode of public transport within Kashmir. The fact that the travel by train is more comfortable and less time consuming than road travel, it is bound to considerably increase the number of rail commuters in the Valley. > > After all, who does not want to avoid being caught up in a traffic jam, especially when one has to reach office or home in time? > > 3. "First Train Runs In Kashmir Valley: History to Reality" at http://www.groundreport.com/Arts_and_Culture/First-Train-Runs-In-Kashmir-Valley-History-to-Real > > by Santosh Kumar Agarwal October 12, 2008 > > In an epoch making event, the Kashmir valley saw for the first time the flagging of a broad gauge train by the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, fulfilling partly, the dream project of former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpai, who declared the project as National Project in 2001. The Train would run 66 Kms from Rajwansher in Srinagar to Anantnag twice daily and back, taking 1 hour and 35 minutes one way. > > > Digging into history a bit, Maharaja Pratap Singh of Dogra hierarchy first contemplated a rail link to Srinagar in 1898. Starting with the first steaming of Railways in 1953, India already had more than 30000 miles of railways by the end of 19th Century. Although the plan of the maharaja could not be materialized at those times, the matter was revived after the partition in 1947 when Jammu got de-linked from the rest of the country. A 105Km rail link constructed and started operating between Pathankot-Jammu Tawi in 1970 at the behest of Indira Gandhi, who also kicked off the Jammu- Udhampur line in 1983 with a five-year completion schedule. But after her abrupt death, the 55 Km line could be commissioned only in 2004. > > > Back again with the main topic, amid tight security with an undeclared curfew in the valley and a 'counter curfew' by the separatists, the train was flagged off with 100 school children as first passengers. Dignitaries present were Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav, JK Governor N.N.Vora and other officials from rail and state governments, apart from the Prime Minister. The cheer people were significantly absent because of the prevailing situation in the Valley. > > > Railway minister Lalu Yadav, who has achieved the status of an icon for his success in turning around the Indian Railways from loss making entity to a proverbial hen laying golden eggs, was very happy saying, "It is a historic day for people of Kashmir who can travel now 66km by train." But a land donor for this line had other things in mind when he expressed doubt about return of the elusive peace in the tormented valley in spite of the new railway era. > > > Work on this railway line was just a modest beginning, being a small part of the overall project of joining Kashmir valley with rest of India. The most difficult part being the stretch between Katra in Jammu to Quazigund in valley, a distance of about 150Km including an 11 Km long tunnel to cross Pirpanjal Range and is likely to take five years to complete. The stretch Quazigund to Srinagar (about 75Km) and then to Baramula (50Km) is easier to construct, as most of the track would be on flat valley. If every thing goes on as per planning, one can expect to reach Srinagar directly by train from standard railheads in India in about five years time. > > > Once completed, the 345 km Jammu-Srinagar-Baramula rail travel is likely to present the best scenic beauty in the world, along with the Houseboats and Sikaras of Dal Lake. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 15:54:36 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 02:24:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] "Train Services Thrills Kashmir" In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811090217p682b88bfjb56cfc974d5f87e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <191653.3054.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shivam   You have obliquely (if not directly) advocated that my mails should be filtered out.   Accordingly my last mail, commenting on a posting by you was not addressed (or copied) to you.   You should pratice what you preach.   Kshmendra     --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Shivam V wrote: From: Shivam V Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Train Services Thrills Kashmir" To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 3:47 PM A bridge too far Bhavna Vij-Aurora October 10, 2008 http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&issueid=68&id=17182&Itemid=1§ionid=36 Nearly a decade after work began on an ambitious plan to connect Kashmir's mountainous villages with the rest of the country by a railway link, it has come apart with Lalu Prasad Yadav's Ministry doing a sudden U-turn and abandoning work on the longest section between Katra and Qazigund. This section is the crucial part of the 346-km railway link. The Jammu-Udhampur section was completed in April 2005. Construction from the other end of the line has also made considerable progress but now it appears that they may never meet since the fate of the major connecting section is in limbo. It seems to have suddenly dawned on the Railway Board that the alignment of the 148 km-stretch is all wrong, and now they propose a relatively shorter (92 km) alternate alignment, based on "toposheet and satellite imageries". And who do they blame for the loss of Rs 2,000 crore and 10 years of hard work? "It was a political decision. In 2002, prime minister Vajpayee announced that Srinagar will be connected with the rest of the country through a railway line. We were forced to start the work without proper surveys," claims Railway Board Member (Engineering) S.K. Vij. "It was my decision to stop work. For four-and-a-half years that the work on the section has been going on, it is all wrong professionally and from the engineering point of view," he says. His statement is, however, refuted by engineers and experts. "What Vajpayee did was to declare it a national project and ensure that funds would be available. There is no point politicising the issue just because the Railways have messed it up," says an engineer with the project. S.P.S. Jain and R.R. Jaruhar, who supervised the work before Vij, counter the claim that the existing alignment is not feasible and also that work on the section had begun without proper surveys. "For the first time, the Railways used Digital Laser Terrain Modelling. Remote sensing and satellite imagery were used to get the exact alignment. It was mapped in great detail. Geological and seismic studies were conducted. Aerial surveys were also done. This was followed by physical surveys of most of the terrain," says a technical officer in the Railways. That it is a prestige project is evident by the fact that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh too has been tracking its progress. Alarmed by the turn of events, his office has asked for a status report on the project and reasons for stopping the work on the section. The decision to stop work has also invited queries from the Cabinet Secretariat, Planning Commission and the Finance Ministry. The Konkan Railway Construction Ltd (KRCL), incharge of the disputed section, and Indian Railway Construction Company, which is constructing the adjoining section, have told the Railways that they have no problems with the present alignment but the ministry has given written directions to KRCL not to commence any new work. The ministry's order says: "Other than the main road works, all works on the entire section with M/s KRCL be pended (sic) till further advice." Jaruhar says, "We knew right from the beginning that Katra-Qazigund section is not going to be easy. We had to cross the Chenab and tunnel through the Pir Panjal ranges. But technically, we knew it was possible. It still is. Minor changes in alignment have been made along the way, and more can be made. A completely new alignment is a waste of money and time." In fact, it can push the deadline for completion of the line to as late as 2025. Vij presents a more optimistic picture. "Not before 2015," he says. Restarting the work on new alignment would take another five to seven years since the process will have to begin from scratch. The plan, according to the Railways' engineering chief, is to get a geological survey of the new proposed alignment done and follow it up with an on-the-ground survey. Following that, tenders would be called and awarded, and only then would work recommence. "We are going to get a geological survey done by an Austrian expert at a cost of Rs 10 crore. Meanwhile, an expert committee has been constituted to study the alignments and take a view," Vij says. The committee is still to be cleared by the railway minister, however. Government sources say that, irrespective of the views of the committee, the Railways will have to go back to the Cabinet for any change in the alignment since it is a national project funded by the Government. Moreover, the line was envisioned more as a strategic and psychological project with international ramifications. The claims and counters only cloud the issue further. "The idea was to connect Kashmiris even in the remotest areas to the rest of the country. The new proposed alignment defeats the very idea. The existing alignment was chosen since it connects more than 50 villages, as against barely seven in the new one," says a senior bureaucrat. Whatever the eventual fate of the project, its diplomatic and political impact means that politics, and not economics, will cast the final vote. Till then, the project stays derailed. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > 1 Pic and 2 News Reports > > 1. Pic at http://chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-10/11/content_7097186.htm > > 2. "Train services thrills Kashmir " at http://etalaat.com/english/News/front-page/3150.html > > Etalaat News Service > Srinagar, October 12: On the first day of its commercial run in Kashmir, hundreds of commuters travelled in rail today between various stations from Budgam to Anantnag. > > The train chugged off from Budgam at 7.25 A.M. with 300 passengers on board who were excited to have the first experience of rail travel in the Valley. Another 400 commuters boarded the train to Anantnag on its journey back. The number of passengers kept swelling as the train touched the next stations. By the time it arrived in Srinagar, there was no vacant seat available in the 588-seat capacity train and a large number of passengers had to travel while keeping standing. > > The train left the Anantnag station at 9.18 A.M. and arrived at Budgam at 10.50 A.M. > The passengers - men, women and children - were highly enthusiastic about being among the first commercial passengers of the train that had been eagerly waited to run through the landscape of Kashmir. Many spoke about the joy and ecstasy they felt on being part of the history in making. > > Manzoor Ahmad of Budgam who was the first to alight from the train at Wanpoh, Anantnag station said that he considered himself to be very lucky for being the first passenger to have de-boarded at the end of the first commercial run of the train in Kashmir. He was one of the 450 passengers who alighted from the 8 coaches at Wanpoh as the train completed the maiden commercial run. > > In the second run of the day, 465 passengers de-boarded at Anantnag while 370 boarded the train there. > > The train was flagged off by the Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh at Srinagar Railway Station yesterday with UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi, Governor, N. N. Vohra and Minister for Railway, Lalu Prasad Yadev witnessing the historic event. > > Chief Area Manager, Srinagar P. K. Gupta said that the rail service has reduced the travel time for commuters by more than half. "On the top of it", he said, "It is more comfortable than road travel". He said that from Anantnag to reach Budgam it would normally take two and a half hour by road but the distance is covered by train in an hour and six minutes only. > > The passengers agree with him and also like the heating arrangements in the bogies. Riaz Ahmad of Nogam said that he had waited long for this momentous day to arrive and felt on cloud 9 to be on board the first commercial service. > > Gupta believes that the enthusiasm shown by the people was more than he had expected. > Going by the excitement it has generated among the local people, the train in the Valley is likely to be a major attraction and a preferred mode of public transport within Kashmir. The fact that the travel by train is more comfortable and less time consuming than road travel, it is bound to considerably increase the number of rail commuters in the Valley. > > After all, who does not want to avoid being caught up in a traffic jam, especially when one has to reach office or home in time? > > 3. "First Train Runs In Kashmir Valley: History to Reality" at http://www.groundreport.com/Arts_and_Culture/First-Train-Runs-In-Kashmir-Valley-History-to-Real > > by Santosh Kumar Agarwal October 12, 2008 > > In an epoch making event, the Kashmir valley saw for the first time the flagging of a broad gauge train by the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, fulfilling partly, the dream project of former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpai, who declared the project as National Project in 2001. The Train would run 66 Kms from Rajwansher in Srinagar to Anantnag twice daily and back, taking 1 hour and 35 minutes one way. > > > Digging into history a bit, Maharaja Pratap Singh of Dogra hierarchy first contemplated a rail link to Srinagar in 1898. Starting with the first steaming of Railways in 1953, India already had more than 30000 miles of railways by the end of 19th Century. Although the plan of the maharaja could not be materialized at those times, the matter was revived after the partition in 1947 when Jammu got de-linked from the rest of the country. A 105Km rail link constructed and started operating between Pathankot-Jammu Tawi in 1970 at the behest of Indira Gandhi, who also kicked off the Jammu- Udhampur line in 1983 with a five-year completion schedule. But after her abrupt death, the 55 Km line could be commissioned only in 2004. > > > Back again with the main topic, amid tight security with an undeclared curfew in the valley and a 'counter curfew' by the separatists, the train was flagged off with 100 school children as first passengers. Dignitaries present were Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav, JK Governor N.N.Vora and other officials from rail and state governments, apart from the Prime Minister. The cheer people were significantly absent because of the prevailing situation in the Valley. > > > Railway minister Lalu Yadav, who has achieved the status of an icon for his success in turning around the Indian Railways from loss making entity to a proverbial hen laying golden eggs, was very happy saying, "It is a historic day for people of Kashmir who can travel now 66km by train." But a land donor for this line had other things in mind when he expressed doubt about return of the elusive peace in the tormented valley in spite of the new railway era. > > > Work on this railway line was just a modest beginning, being a small part of the overall project of joining Kashmir valley with rest of India. The most difficult part being the stretch between Katra in Jammu to Quazigund in valley, a distance of about 150Km including an 11 Km long tunnel to cross Pirpanjal Range and is likely to take five years to complete. The stretch Quazigund to Srinagar (about 75Km) and then to Baramula (50Km) is easier to construct, as most of the track would be on flat valley. If every thing goes on as per planning, one can expect to reach Srinagar directly by train from standard railheads in India in about five years time. > > > Once completed, the 345 km Jammu-Srinagar-Baramula rail travel is likely to present the best scenic beauty in the world, along with the Houseboats and Sikaras of Dal Lake. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- mail at shivamvij dot com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 16:13:19 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 02:43:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] (In Rising Kashmir) "The Power of Democracy" - B A Tariq Message-ID: <92162.75435.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Extract:   "The boycott calls given by some groups are in fact indicative of their lack of support base among the masses and they appear to be conscious of it"   "The power of democracy"  If Americans could, why can’t Kashmiris bring change in Kashmir? B A Tariq   Even though the electioneering has not yet picked up in J&K to the levels as was seen in 2002 Assembly elections, in the aftermath of the aggressive agitations for and against ‘diversion’ of land to Amaranth Shrine Board in both the regions of Kashmir and Jammu, the historic vote in USA for the change should inspire those who do not exercise their right of franchise for different reasons, for the good of the State.     The election-boycott syndrome has no potential of any help to the ordinary Kashmiri as nothing tangible had happened by previous boycotts, thousands of shutdowns, countless killings and unending spate of violence.   What everybody is curiously looking at is the actual turn out on the polling days in the State, even by those who are campaigning for the boycott. It would in any case demonstrate the strength of the democratic temper of the people.   The fact remains that never before decision was taken to hold elections in such an unfavourable situation, but it had probably no alternative as, howsoever weakest, people’s representative government is far better than the bureaucratic dispensation, even if it is manned by the people of proven integrity and competence.   The mainstream political parties are gearing up to seek mandate on their policies and manifestos to govern the State for the next six years. Political observers feel that several factors were responsible for this year's low key campaigning by political parties whereby they have mostly restricted their activities to holding party conventions and workers meets. While more than 5,000 rallies and public meetings were organized by various political parties in 2002 elections, political leaders and candidates have not been as aggressive in campaigning with notification for three phases of the polls already issued.   People from Jammu city and adjoining areas, who took active part in the unprecedented emotive agitation spearheaded by Amarnath Sangarsh Samiti, are still suffering from the fatigue of the 63-day long agitation. The valleyites have yet to emerge out of the agitation spearheaded by the separatist Coordination Committee and the normal life gets frequently disrupted due to strike calls, marches, protest demonstrations or curfew every other day, economic losses caused in the process notwithstanding. It is literally holding the society to ransom; the common man continues to grumble but can not raise the banner of dissent which is not acceptable to the so called champions of Kashmiri cause backed by forces of disruption.   There were several incidents of violence against mainstream politicians, including National Conference leader Syed Akhoon and PDP leader Syed Bashir during the agitation, while there was a spontaneous shutdown when National Conference president Omar Abdullah and his PDP rival Qazi Muhammad Afzal filed their nomination papers from Ganderbal assembly seat. Apart from the separatist cadre it is often said in political circles that these ‘attacks’ are engineered by rival candidates to paint others in bad light.   Despite all these incidents, more and more people sincerely believe that democratic process is the only way to bring about a change in the society – political, economic or social. This feeling is evident from the fact that as many as 44 nominations filed in just two constituencies of Bandipora and Sonawari district, going to polls on November 17 in the first phase. Is this the trend? One can’t be sure as we are as unpredictable as Kashmir weather.   National Conference and BJP had been calling for holding of elections in time while the PDP dithered and delayed the decision by 10 days but when the time to take a final call came they decided to jump into the fray with the hope that they will be able to prevail upon the voters once again with new agenda to put the party back to power, whatever the turnout percentage.   The State unit of CPI (M), which had called for some time to create a conducive atmosphere for the polls in the state, was the first to organize an election rally in Kulgam within hours of the Election Commission of India announcing the poll schedule. Other smaller parties like People's Democratic Front and Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Party (Nationalist) followed suit. Even separatists are not against the democratic process, at least not in their public posturing, but their stand on elections is like putting the cart before the horse. They want people to decide the ‘future’ of Kashmir but are shying away from taking responsibility, by proving their representative character through the ballot and lead the state in whichever direction they want, provided they get the mandate to do so.   While the decision to vote or not to vote is the right of every voter across the world, one cannot coerce the people not to vote. UJC was first to ask for boycott and over ground organizations supporting the same cause are trumpeting it day in and day out. The boycott calls given by some groups are in fact indicative of their lack of support base among the masses and they appear to be conscious of it.   The presidential elections in the United States of America this year have shown that people's power reigns supreme as the Americans elected a black as their president for the first time in the country's history. There were several landmark firsts in this election as Barack Hussein Obama successfully challenged the established norms of the American society by daring to change the system where a White President was a foregone conclusion even before the parties would nominate their candidates.   Obama's historic win as the President of the US should strengthen the belief that democracy is the answer to all problems faced by a society, a nation or the world at present. The two most compelling arguments in its support are that blacks in the US got voting rights only 44 years ago, and Obama came on the national political scene of the US only four years ago when he was elected to the Senate from Illinois.   As Obama said in his Victory speech, "Change has come" to the US, a thought comes to the mind-  do the people opposed to the elections in Kashmir dare to bring a change in J&K through the power of the ballot and not through marches, bandhs, gun or violence? Good turn out of voters can make all the difference to Kashmir.   http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8184&Itemid=44     From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 16:32:45 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 16:32:45 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 85, Musings on a Sunday afternoon. References: Message-ID: <171223.7295.qm@web94905.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear all,     this is simple musings of a moron, with no claim to be an intellectual but musings they are of a society with lots of intellect, which refuses to use the common sense. The readers list should become a battle ground to denigrade the individuals for the thoughts is indeed sad, as I have no use for wonderful wordplay, I have no political wishlists, no political favourites, I like the best of the left policies where they help the nation and its poor, but I do not hesitate to stay away from the high riding politburo members who live like parasytes on subscriptions of the poor workers and members. I like the nation and unity in nation to be stronger society, but I do not hesitate to stay away when any faith is imposed on me, I am proud to be hindu, but that does not prevent me from reading Holy Quran or Bible to understand, atleast make an attempt to understand what is good in these holy books.  Be that may, it is rather sad to note that instead of exchange of thoughts what is happening on the list at present is simple bashing of hindu sentiments may be because the hindu is tolerent and the society does not like the tolerent.? Islamic thoughts are expressed in various holy scriptures, we have seen how the clergy can re-interpret these holy thoughts to make life miserable for all in society. On this Sunday, it is real pleasure to read that the very same clergies are pronouncing that terror is not approved and is condemned in holy books. Prakash has always inspired me with his thoughts, he may like the left ideology, but that appreciation of mine for his honest thoughts does not make me a communist, nor do I become a member of RSS if Iike what is good in that organisation, - the self discipline., and sense of belonging to the society.Shuddha with his superb hold on vocabulary questions the very effect of faith, but only for hindu faith, that is worry some, why do others faith and their followers do not have any blemishes, is it true.?   Javed asked me about the doubts, about the evidence and all that i can say is within the legal permissible limits, the search reports have listed the items seized from the lecturer Geelani, some of the voluminous seized items are not presented before the trial court. At high court, there were objections from defence when prosecution wanted to present some of the detailed evidence, and prosecutor had to remark that all the eggs are not in one basket, meaning they would be used later, but the presence of illustrious super advocates has some magical effect on judiciary as seen in many cases, where some expose" has recently shown the effect of such interference in proceedings by high profile advocates. NDTV brought out the ill effects of big money and muscle power in play in judicial proceedings.  The CBI, a premier investigation agency is now fading in glory of inefficiency after the famous investigation of bofors scam. That the investigators did not even spend more than ten minutes with prosecutor of Sweden for the details, but spent ages for letterogatories is well known truth and fact. here the issue to be noted is the investigative journalism of that brave lady, Ms. Chitra Subramanyam, all that CBI has had to do was collect the evidence from one source, but JPC and the delay tactics by the lawyers with special leave petitions in high courts of Delhi with single judges extending stays, injunctions and getting rewarded for the efforts to delay the proceedings thus confirming the dictum,justice delayed is justice denied is hall mark of democratic judiciary in India.? The falling standards of judiciary is now well recorded, earlier none dared to talk in open about it with contempt proceeding anging on their heads, but after the high court judges of one state caught with lady advocates in a resort, the citizens and media seem to understand that the judges are also human with all human fault lines, nothing secret about their weaknesses. A chief justice who misused the funds could not even be impeached because the democratic parties stayed away from voting against such misdemeanour.?   That freezed amount could be released by the solicitor general of free India by midnight flight to London, without knowledge of Supreme court or CBI is flabberghastingly simple as beneficiary happens to be uncle Q and poor Ardbo, who undelinedbelow the letter Q is no more to talk, as dead do not talk..? Lalu and his gotalas , maya and her scams, Mulayam and his assets, Advani and babri masjid cases all in CBI courts have just been there with nothing to talk of progress in these cases.To add to the list, now the officials of CBI love the TV cameras so much that each day new master minds come out, each day some new nitari killings are covered up, each day some more poor servant of the rich is framd in trial case to languish in custody.   That apart, about the parliament attack, during NDa rule and later with UPA rule, all leaders of kashmir of all political hues id not want hard decisions as "Kashmir would burn" and then we talk now of terrorism of faiths? Do we have set of existing laws which can nip in the bud any act of deviant behaviour or is it that we as society are so divided that we have ready theories to justify violence with left, right and faith as excuses for the violence.? Surprisingly, even the intellectual individuals also fall in this trap of justification of violence. shuddha with his word play has some lovely long posts but never a word about the deviant behaviour of the individual, inder and aarti are so secular that all the violence of youth congress and shouting brigades is just admiration for the great sacrifices of the leader.? Sadvi arrested is not innocent but moulvi arrested is innocent till proved guilty.?  That every autonomous institution is falling apart in the rule of governance is obivious and we justify it according to our  faith, region, language and caste and faith.? At this rate do we have to get justice by the mob or is there any hope for the individuals that courts will be temples of justice.? Judges who are named in scams have no basic minimal courtesy even to resign from the post they are holding. Unlike the constituion bench of 1977 where One Justice khanna upheld the spirit of the constitution and rule of laws, as ten other judges fudged with justice, is these a single judge today wo can be true to his oath of office.?   With the type of advocates who have only got to do at the court is to create doubt, beyond reasonable doubt, so that the accused can get reprive.? Is there any thing as rights when the citizens need not have any duties as duties are not enforceable and so one need not be duty conscious, only right conscious to subvert all the rights of otther individuals so that he is the winner.?Will such a society be civic and citizens will be civilised as they do not recognise the right of others as it is not their duty.?   In an article Ali Enginneer blames BJP of putting their men in all the oganisations when in power, RSS men and women in positions of media, schools and colleges, as if this was not the case when Congress and left ruled the nation.? A trip around JNU shows the character and hold of left parties on the campus of this JNU. What is wrong in the left or RSS if qualified person is in post.? Why this ostracisation of some because they are having their iealogy different from some.?And about argument of fascism, is it only applicable to BJP and RSS or is it not evident in the proceedings of politburo, high command of one man/woman parties.?Can any one dare to dissent in Congress or left or BSP and remain in party.? Somnathda, Natwar singh provide us the answer.! ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 9 November, 2008 2:14:22 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 85 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: DU allows ‘seminar’ blasting Govt; Geelani is star       speaker (Pawan Durani)   2. Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? (Naeem Mohaiemen)   3. Re: Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? (Paul D. Miller)   4. Re: SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police       (prakash ray)   5. Re: Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? (Naeem Mohaiemen)   6. Re: SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police       (Aditya Raj Kaul) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:02:51 +0530 From: "Pawan Durani" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DU allows ‘seminar’ blasting Govt;     Geelani is star speaker To: "Shivam V" Cc: sarai list Message-ID:     <6b79f1a70811082332o618dffc9o146759493f0855ce at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" shivam, there are journalists who are being paid by separatists in kashmir to write for azaadi cause ,also kashmir is a distribution ground for fake currency. I was wondering whether these paid up writers get fake currency in compensation. do u as a knowledgeable writer with interest in kashmir shed Some light. I am not saying u may be one of them,but ur knowledge on the subject may be interesting. Pawan jai andhra  jai hindusthan On 11/8/08, Shivam V wrote: > You can see this epaper report of the incident in the Hindustan Times: > http://tamasha.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/spitting-at-geelani.pdf > > It has pictures of the spitting incident. > > It is clear that the ABVP members were out to deny SAR Geelani his > right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed by the > Constitution. Geelani is not in jail, not on remand custody, not > convicted, and not asked by a court of law or a magistrate not to > speak in public (as is the case with Raj Thackeray from time to time). > > There has also been some spitting on this list. Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan > Durani and others who defend this act, should by extension be denied > their right to free speech on this list. They should be removed by the > list administrator. > > best > shivam > > o o  o > > > November 4, 2006 > HT Correspondent > New Delhi, November 07, 2008 > First Published: 00:57 IST(7/11/2008) > Last Updated: 00:59 IST(7/11/2008) > > Ugly scenes mar DU seminar > > A group of activists belonging to the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > Parishad (ABVP) on Wednesday went on the rampage at Delhi University. > The group vandalised the venue of a seminar in protest against the > presence of SAR Geelani, acquitted in the Parliament attack case and > at present, lecturer in Zakir Hussain College. > > Amid the chaos, one activist spat on Geelani. The mob, headed by Delhi > University Students Union president and ABVP member Nupur Sharma > damaged property and hurled abuse on Geelani at the seminar on > 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy, Rhetoric and Reality', disrupting > the programme briefly. > > The incident took place at the Arts Faculty in Delhi University's > North Campus. ABVP activists went on damaging the windows, doors, > chairs and the microphone to disrupt the meeting. > > "We will not let a terror suspect give a talk on Hindu terrorism in > the University. Geelani was acquitted on technical grounds. He even > approached the Supreme Court to clear his name but the court refused," > said Sharma. > > The violence only stopped after police came in large numbers and > detained the activists. > > The University Community –– an independent group of students and > teachers of DU, which had organised the seminar, condemned the > violence. > > "The violence happened in police presence and DU authorities too sided > with the ABVP goons. The University should lodge an FIR against the > guilty and action should be taken imediately," said Harsh Bora, > student at PGDAV College and member of the Community. > > To lodge their protest the Community members would hold march at Arts > Faculty on Thursday, said Bora. > > In response, ABVP issued a statement saying the country was witnessing > a difficult phase as terrorism and anti-social activities were > increasing. "At this stage, inviting a person like Geelani shows sick > mentality of the organisers. Are we going to invite Afzal Guru to > Delhi University in future if he is released from jail?" the statement > said. > > Geelani meanwhile asked students to fight for democratic values and > debunk efforts by forces to target certain individuals and terrorise a > community. "This is a trailer of fascism. The fact that we held the > meeting shows that we succeeded to beat the fascist forces," Geelani > said. > > DU authorities said action would be taken against the errant students. > "Law will take its own course against whoever has done this," said > Gurmeet Singh, Proctor, DU. > > Earlier this year, ABVP activists had been arrested after they > vandalised the office of the History Department head S. Z. H. Jafri > protesting against certain "objectionable" portions in the B.A. > History (Honours) syllabus. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=bf371038-438b-42f5-bd25-d14504de1764 > > (c) Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Appu Esthose Suresh > wrote: >> Wha! Sabhash! I never had seen people betraying their sub conscious, every >> bit of it.  I must congratulate the brand idea of quoting The Pioneer >> report, what an Idea Serjee!! I doubt the "venom that spewed" >> ("interactive >> session" where venom was spewed on the >> >> Government's counter-terrorism- Pioneer 7th Nov) went into the eyes of >> reporter that might have made him myopic; of course Mr. Geelani knew he is >> from Pioneer! No wonder there is any praises on the highly dignified >> manner >> in which a civilized ABVP activist greeted Geelani with his spit. Well, >> was >> it a purification attempt? Then, I convey my sympathy to the reporter; he >> missed the bull's eye by a wide margin. He was witnessing to the >> sanskritization and didn't even mention a word. Certainly, ABVP must write >> a >> strong letter condemning this act to the erstwhile editor. In that case >> you >> don't know the address please post it to BJP Headquarters, after all >> Chandanda is their Rajya Sabha MP. >> >> >> >> A note to the Gentleman who posted it in the readers list, after taking >> public interest into consideration. Fire your newspaper boy who didn't >> deliver you any other paper yesterday; your cable operator who didn't let >> you watch any news; possible sue Google who screened all the other reports >> on vandalism in DU. >> >> >> >> Why should Afzal Guru be hanged? The court said so! Mind you the court did >> so to satisfy the collective conscious of Indian Community, then for a >> moment I thought I am a Pakistani. Nevertheless we shall continue—what did >> court say about SAR Geelani? — He is innocent— who cares— who asked the >> court to say so? WE THE LAST INDIANS (Read members of the "nationalist >> organization") think rather insist, a person once accused for Terrorism >> will >> remain a terrorist. Oops! What am I saying? How can that be true about a >> sadhvi? What about the brave soldiers who killed terrorist (Pardon me, I >> got >> to spit out, actually terrorists?) who have now confused about their >> involvement in Malegaon. >> >> >> >> Let me ask the evergreen experts on almost everything under sky from >> medicine (until they pointed out that even if a policemen is shot at by a >> terrorist right at the front, injury would only be in the backside ) to >> security (Breaking News: Blast in Malegaon, in the same breath, Indian >> Mujahudin involved). *Doctors,* am I mistaken when I say Bajrang Dal is >> involved in terrorist activity? *Doctors,* what should I say when a >> Kashmiri >> ask, we been telling, army has fundamentalist who commit Human right abuse >> and bring bad name to that institution, now what? *Doctors, *Is that okay >> if >> I call an Indian, that too from 'the integral part of the country' a >> terrorist when is been acquitted? >> >> >>                  (*To be continued…………*) >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM, chanchal malviya < >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> All in the world has right to speak and speak alound against Hindus.. >>> But Hindus.. >>> If they speak, it is surely communal and if Saadhvi speaks she is a >>> terrorist... >>> >>> Everyone knows that Geelani is one of the accused in Parliament attack >>> and >>> he was to speak against Hindus.. But he has freedom as a teacher and >>> greater >>> freedom because he is about to speak anti-Hindu.... >>> >>> Karunanidhi have stressed that Hindus will not be allowed to put 'Tika' >>> on >>> their forehead... >>> >>> Wait my dear friends.. very soon, you will not be allowed to call >>> yourself >>> Hindus... That is the only end of Secularism.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul >>> To: sarai list >>> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 8:14:06 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star >>> speaker >>> >>> *DU allows 'seminar' blasting Govt; Geelani is star speaker >>> >>> **Staff Reporter | New Delhi >>> >>> The Daily Pioneer >>> >>> Link - >>> >>> http://www.dailypioneer.com/132900/DU-allows-%E2%80%98seminar%E2%80%99-blasting-Govt;-Geelani-is-star-speaker.html >>> * >>> *Parliament attack accused incites youth to end 'fascism' in India, take >>> on >>> ABVP 'goons'* >>> >>> Under heavy police bandobast, the Delhi University (DU) on Thursday >>> facilitated an "interactive session" where venom was spewed on the >>> Government's counter-terrorism initiatives and a known anti-national — >>> SAR >>> Geelani, accused in the Parliament attack case — was hero-worshipped. >>> >>> Addressing a gathering of about 50 students and teachers at the Arts >>> Faculty >>> seminar hall, Geelani said the Batla House encounter was stage-managed by >>> Delhi Police. He said that different parameters were being applied in the >>> handling of Islamic terrorism and the so-called Hindu terrorism. Geelani >>> was >>> speaking on 'Communalism, Fascism and Democracy — Rhetoric and Reality', >>> organised by a barely-known campus group called University Community. >>> >>> "There is no democracy in India. The Government, in the name of national >>> security and war against terrorism, is targeting select people and >>> letting >>> others go scotfree. There is a huge difference in the way the Government >>> deals with the so-called Islamic terrorism and those spread by Hindu >>> extremists. *Aur zyaada janne ke liye aap baad mein miliye* (Meet me >>> later >>> for further explanations)," said Geelani, who was an accused in the 2003 >>> Parliament attack case and was later comforted by the Supreme Court. He >>> said >>> that fascism and prejudice had crept into the four pillars of democracy >>> in >>> India. "Even the Chief Justice of India has been accused of corruption," >>> he >>> said. >>> >>> About 50 persons, including some teachers from different departments of >>> DU, >>> participated in the talk. Amid slogans like "Civil Liberties Long Live" >>> and >>> "Hindu goons wapas jao", the speakers -- including two working >>> journalists >>> and a professor from the Department of Sociology, Jamia Millia Islamia, >>> Nehsat Quaiser -- professed the cases of banned Muslim group, the >>> Students' >>> Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), and the likes of Afzal Guru. >>> >>> Talking about the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) activists >>> opposing the branding of Hindu groups as terrorists, Geelani said, >>> "Inquilab >>> comes from the youth. You should not fear these goons and end this >>> fascism." >>> >>> Another speaker said the Malegaon blasts accused, Pragya Singh Thakur, >>> was >>> not a sadhvi but the face of Sangh terror. University sources said a >>> teacher >>> from the Department of English had booked the hall for organising 'a >>> talk'. >>> University officials said they were not informed of the topic and that >>> Geelani was supposed to deliver a lecture. University Proctor Gurmeet >>> Singh >>> even called the organisers repeatedly, asking them to cancel their talk >>> in >>> view of the protests incited by Geelani's and others' views. The meeting, >>> however, went on. >>> >>> The ABVP members, on the other hand, demonstrated outside the seminar >>> room >>> and shouted slogans, 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram'. An >>> activist >>> even managed to reach the dais and spit on Geelani's face, saying 'shame, >>> shame'. The ABVP activists then damaged some windows, doors, chairs and >>> the >>> microphone to disrupt the meeting. However, the meeting continued despite >>> the disturbance. Later, police arrested some ABVP activists. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:32:54 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. >An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner November 7, 2008 http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 > > And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:40:25 -0500 From: "Paul D. Miller" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? To: Naeem Mohaiemen ,reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. > >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner >November 7, 2008 >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 > >> >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken. >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:37:17 +0530 From: "prakash ray" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs:     Police To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux Klanists, including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. Mr Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that it is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed whenever a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to point finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do wrong. When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political level) in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against certain people or actions. You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own medicine and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I repeat: Not in my name... Prakash ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:08:20 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Not sure if you were being tongue-in-cheek regarding Elvis, but Ralph Nader is definitely Arab-American. During his first run, the press even made something of the fact that he was the first Arab-American Presidential candidate (thus making him another minority candidate after Jesse Jackson). Of course Nader's identity is as a consumer advocate, not as Arab American, and he himself rarely talks about it, so this never gets much play (nor does it have to, a man's free to identify as he likes). I agree that Nader calling Obama "Uncle Tom" is off the mark, and people are understandably riled by the comments, but Davey D's guest blogger calling Nader a "white boy" is also an incomplete reading. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Uh, yeah. So was Elvis... > > Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > >Uhh, Ralph Nader is Lebanese-American. > > > >>An Open Letter to Ralph Nader About His Dis to Obama > >>By Davey D Davey/D's Hip Hop Corner > >November 7, 2008 > >http://hiphopnews.yuku.com/topic/917 > > > >> > >> And like the white boy at the house party, you were sorely mistaken.. > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:14:12 +0530 From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs:     Police To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <6353c690811090044x5fe04eccg29b10e627f60bf6a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear 'Sanjay Kak's' Propaganda agent 'on pay roles of 'Yasin Malik', Kindly be a little mature while speaking. I'm not in this list because of you, nor will I leave so easily just because some other 'Prakash Ray' doesn't want me there. In a similar fashion that you have written, even I get sad, shocked, and agitated with the way: 1. Islamic Terrorists kill people of a certain community, and people like you remain silent. 2. Propagandist like SFI, AISA and now even some 'University Community' spread hatred, violence inside a central University, that too the 'Delhi University, quite openly. There are 1000 expmples to quote atleast. I won't waste my time on it. We don't belive in blackning of faces or spitting. Its a response by the common citizens to a sudden aimed provication. We have and will protest against all terrorists including Yasin Malik, Bitta Karate, S.A.R. Geelani, Afzal etc. We won't tolerate self styled 'secularists' and so called 'intellectuals' to project them as leaders and thinkers and parade them to seminars. It just can't happen. Its a open mockery of our constitution and the democracy. Try evicting us from the list. You Poor fellow can't even argue... Argument less 'Hindu Bashers'. Quite unfortunate. Continue ith this tirade. Each time you spread hatred, violence, fundamentalist thought.... a slap awaits you. Love.. On 11/9/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, > > > Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux Klanists, > including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its > screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. Mr > Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that it > is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed > whenever > a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever > Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or > molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to point > finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I > surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do > wrong. > > When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political > level) > in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, > hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against > certain people or actions. > > You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own medicine > and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. > > This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I > repeat: Not in my name.... > > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 85 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From alexanderaugust at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 16:54:08 2008 From: alexanderaugust at gmail.com (Alexander Keefe) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 16:54:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Subrahmanyam on The White Tiger, from the current LRB Message-ID: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n21/subr01_.html Diary Sanjay Subrahmanyam Anyone who has read the inside pages of Indian newspapers over the past few decades will be familiar with the recurring stories of violent urban crime. Some concern 'crimes of passion' and use a peculiar Indian English journalistic vocabulary, involving such terms as 'eve-teasing', 'absconding' and 'paramour'. Some of the stories have to do with incest or close family relationships – say, between father-in-law and daughter-in-law – while others are tales of paedophilia and 'child molestation'. Another popular subject of which Delhi residents will be well aware are the crimes committed by the 'criminal castes', often linked in the neocolonial imagination of the city's bourgeoisie to the villages and smallholdings that are gradually being asphyxiated by Delhi's expansion. It's been an urban legend since the 1990s that people are being bludgeoned to death in their houses with blunt instruments even though they haven't resisted; and that the intruders show their contempt for their victims by defecating in their living-rooms. Class elements are present in the reporting of crimes of passion, which the elite naturally associate with slum-dwellers and squatters: the second type of crime involves something approaching class warfare. But the dominant topic of past decades has been domestic servants, an indispensable part of life but also a source of endless paranoia in metropolitan households. These domestic servants come in various guises. Some commute to work by public transport, perform tasks in several households, and return home at the end of the day. Many others are children, or barely adolescent, and sleep in the house where they work (though they aren't usually allowed to use the same bathrooms and toilets as their employers). They may be poor relatives; or they may be adults from outside the family. They have no fixed hours, though in some cases they are given a day off every week or every fortnight. The government recognises their existence by providing every state employee who attains 'officer' status with a flat or house that has 'servants' quarters' attached to it. Here, in the alleys at the back of government residential areas, a world exists in parallel to that of the houses and flats that look out onto the streets and gardens. It is a curious form of what the Brazilian sociologist Gilberto Freyre, in his discussion of the relationship between plantation owners and their slaves, called *casa grande e senzala*; sometimes the children of the masters and those of the servants can be found spinning tops or flying kites together. Servants are naturally a favourite topic of conversation. 'They are so difficult to get and so hard to keep.' 'They don't know their station any more.' 'It's not like it was in the good old days when they were so loyal that they were really members of the family.' And so on. The paranoia resurfaces every time there is a story in the papers about an elderly couple found murdered and robbed by their resident servant; and the paranoia increases when the police, as they usually do, place advertisements in the papers advising employers to run 'background checks' on potential employees. Attempts are made from time to time to introduce identity cards for servants, and urban Indians wistfully say how much better arrangements are in Singapore, where servants are strictly regulated by the state, have just one day off a month, and women are kicked out if they get pregnant. A bourgeois household may have washing-machines, vacuum cleaners, microwaves and other domestic aids, but who can live without one servant, or several? Every American, European or Japanese who lives in an Indian city succumbs soon enough to the Servant Raj. Some time in the 1980s, a friend of mine had a lavish wedding in one of the cities. Though he lived and worked in India, his family was spread across the West and they turned up in large numbers, accompanied by Western friends who were not above a bit of freeloading. The wedding was an extended affair and what began cordially enough soon deteriorated into squabbling. Some of it was the usual friction resulting from familial proximity, but there was another, more peculiar cause. Some of the relatives from abroad announced that they were appalled by class relations in India. They didn't just mean the rickshaw-pullers on the streets: what troubled them was the position and treatment of domestic servants, who had been mobilised in large numbers for the wedding. They were there to clean up after parties that ended in the early hours of the morning, and yet had to be up to make masala omelettes for the honoured guests when they rolled out of bed. All this smacked of a dreadful feudalism to those whose parents had lived in India a bare generation before, surrounded in all probability by even larger numbers of servants. It seemed archaic and primitive, unworthy of a democracy, an affront to liberal principles. Eventually, many of those who had come from abroad stormed off with their moral superiority intact, leaving their Indian relatives bemused. Social scientists reflecting on India tend to discuss class in its rural version (relations between landlords, peasants and wage labourers), or in its classic urban incarnation of the factory and shop floor, or in terms of what has been termed 'footloose labour' – which is to say, the labour used on construction sites or for contract work on piece rates or for a wage. Even the broad intellectual grouping known as Subaltern Studies hasn't taken domestic work into account, save for the occasional moment when a conversation with a servant provides the researcher with an anecdote or factoid to motivate an essay on some profound question or other. It is very hard to define or measure class in a country where data on personal income and assets are extremely hard to come by. It is even harder to know for certain what has happened in the past two decades since economic liberalisation was proclaimed. But there are clearly very rich people in the cities now with fancy imported cars, expensive watches and clothes, and showy lifestyles, and they live side by side with slum-dwellers and those who sleep on pavements. There are urban and suburban developments that boast such names as Malibu Towers, Beverly Hills Residence and Bel-Air Estate. This is growth all right, but of a sort that can induce vertigo. It is what Aravind Adiga's Man Booker Prize-winning *The White Tiger* is ostensibly about.[*] The book purports to tell the story of a murder committed by its narrator, Balram Halwai (also known as 'White Tiger'), from the eastern Indian state of Bihar, who moves first to the prosperous suburb of Gurgaon near Delhi to work for Mr Ashok and his wife, Pinky Madam, and then to the booming city of Bangalore in South India, which together with Hyderabad is associated in clichés with the country's recent economic transformation. We learn the fact of this murder some thirty pages into the book, at the end of the first chapter: 'Eight months later, I slit Mr Ashok's throat.' The plot has no twists and turns, no real surprises; there is no sleight of hand. The novel just rolls on like an Indian Railways train, from one stop to another, over seven chapters that are notionally recounted over seven nights. Why Bihar? It is a state that has some of the lowest economic and developmental indicators in modern India, and is also part of a large swathe of territory where Naxalite (or Maoist) groups operate with impunity. Urban Indians, especially from the great metropolitan centres, love to sneer at Bihar, as the worst part of the so-called Cow Belt, a place where banditry, caste warfare and feudalism are rampant and where one of the leading politicians is Laloo Prasad Yadav, who provides much hilarity in the salons of Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore (and who has a role even in this novel). Balram refers to Bihar as the world of 'Darkness', a term that appears repeatedly in the book in opposition to 'Light' – i.e. the sophisticated urban destinations to which the narrator is headed. People like him don't speak the increasingly standard Hindi of northern India, but rather its eastern Indian versions, such as Maithili and Bhojpuri, the dialects spoken by 19th-century working-class migrants to Calcutta, Fiji, Mauritius and Guyana. Even now, they are mocked as rustics because of it. Balram hates Bihar and hates his ancestral village of Laxmangarh, which is apparently only a few miles from Bodh Gaya, the pilgrimage site where the Buddha is said to have attained enlightenment: 'I wonder if the Buddha walked through Laxmangarh – some people say he did. My own feeling is that he ran through it – as fast as he could – and got to the other side – and never looked back!' Balram is cynical about the Hindu religion, which he views in an entirely instrumental manner. He despises the holy river Ganges, which for him is no more than a large open drain. His village is a place 'split into two' by 'a bright strip of sewage', and where there are 'three more or less identical shops selling more or less identically adulterated and stale items of rice, cooking oil, kerosene, biscuits, cigarettes and jaggery'. It is this background, the anything but bucolic world of Laxmangarh, that propels him to seek employment in the provincial city and mining centre of Dhanbad. Here, after a bit of instruction from a local taxi driver, he finds work as a driver with a powerful family that controls large parts of his native region. The next sections of the book trace Balram's rise through the household of this master, where, after first being obliged to drive the humble Indo-Japanese Maruti Suzuki, he reaches a triumphant position behind the wheel of the family's chief car, the luxurious Honda City. Balram has had to exercise his ruthlessness to get there, developing the skills he honed while working in a teashop, doing his job 'with near total dishonesty, lack of dedication, and insincerity'. His rise involves betraying and blackmailing another driver, a secret Muslim, pretending to be a Hindu called Ram Persad. By stages, Balram is elevated to serve the family at a far higher salary, in Delhi and Gurgaon, where it has sent its sons so that they can live out of harm's way (further away from the Naxalites) and closer to the centres of political power. A hundred pages into the novel, we have migrated from Darkness into Light, from the feudal world of Bihar into the suburban and metropolitan one of Gurgaon and Delhi. Adiga's may be the first novel in English to attempt to come to terms with the phenomenon that is Gurgaon. It is, to put it mildly, a curious place. A quarter of a century ago, it was an agrarian region in the state of Haryana on the fringes of Delhi, inhabited by Jat agriculturists and Gujjar pastoralists and farmers. As Delhi expanded southwards, it became a place of opportunity, with the state of Haryana offering incentives for entrepreneurs to invest. In the late 1980s, I remember the first condominiums going on sale there, and Non-Resident Indians (NRIs) buying into them. The car firm Maruti Suzuki, one of whose products Balram drives in Dhanbad, opened a factory. Money began to flow in, often in obscene quantities. I recall visiting a bank in Gurgaon in the mid-1990s in order to make a safe deposit withdrawal on behalf of a friend; the manager proudly pointed to a large and freshly cemented patch in the roof where armed robbers had broken in one night a couple of weeks before and fought a pitched gun battle with local police. My friend's deposit was still intact. There are now enormous malls and glass towers housing firms such as Alcatel and Siemens. But it is an insecure world, where employees walk to collect their cars with what I gather is an understandable nervousness. Muggings are frequent, as are kidnapping and carjacking. Last year IBM apparently issued a memo to its staff advising them to take a long list of precautions. The following story from the *Hindustan Times* of 2 September gives a flavour of the situation (and of Indian journalese): Yet another incident of carjacking was reported from Gurgaon on Monday. Two armed youths reportedly snatched the keys of a Scorpio (HR 26 AH 8100) that was parked in DLF Cyber City from its driver and drove away with the driver still inside. The incident occurred at 11.15 p.m. when hundreds of other vehicles were parked in the area. The SUV belongs to a businessman who lives in Sushant Lok, Phase I. Ashok Kumar, station head officer of DLF City police station said driver Rajeshwar Mandal was sitting in the vehicle and the owner, Vikram Veer, had gone to a restaurant at Infinity Towers. 'Two youths armed with pistols entered into an altercation with the driver saying he had hit their car. The youths then pushed the driver inside and drove the car away,' Kumar said. The robbers snatched Mandal's mobile phone and other belongings and stripped him before dumping him near Palam Vihar. In June this year, the Gurgaon police had issued a word of caution to people driving their cars at odd hours. It had cautioned a motorcycle-borne gang of carjackers was on the prowl in Gurgaon and was snatching cars at gunpoint. In August also, Gurgaon police commissioner Mohinder Lal had said a gang of professional auto-lifters from neighbouring towns as well as from Bihar and West Bengal were active in Gurgaon. As many as 1100 auto theft cases have been reported till date in Gurgaon as against 950 cases in the corresponding period last year. In this Wild West atmosphere, which Gurgaon shares to an extent with other prosperous Delhi suburbs such as NOIDA and Faridabad, nothing is quite what it seems. There are shoot-outs in courtrooms. There are swanky clinics with five-star decor and marble floors where medical attention borders on the criminally negligent. Gurgaon is fragile, but many NRIs are happy to buy into it because they want to believe in the illusions it seems to support: the illusion of security, of the safety of gated communities, the illusion that one is not living in India because one is surrounded by Benetton, Nike, Pizza Hut, TGI Friday. But these are illusions that can be sustained only because the drivers and domestics, the cleaners and sweepers, not to speak of the armed security guards, are all in place. I imagine that large numbers of executives fly into New Delhi's Indira Gandhi Airport in business class, and return to Paris or Düsseldorf three days later without having set foot in any part of India other than Gurgaon. It is this world that Adiga sets out to dissect in the most ambitious part of the book. Balram lives in the servants' apartments in Buckingham Towers B Block. It is, as he describes it, part of a 'warren of interconnected rooms where all the drivers, cooks, sweepers, maids and chefs of the apartment block can rest, sleep and wait'. Balram's master and mistress, Mr Ashok and Pinky Madam, the son and daughter-in-law of his feudal Dhanbad employer, live on the 13th floor of the apartment block in a flat that their driver finds cramped after the Dhanbad house. Mr Ashok, it turns out, is a wishy-washy liberal who was educated in the US, unlike his brother Mukesh, a more rooted and vicious representative of the Bihari landlord class. He has, however, had the courage to oppose his family in marrying Pinky, presented less as an NRI than an ABCD (American-Born Confused *Deshi*), an Indian-American who is also a Christian. Balram lusts after Pinky, her fancy perfumes, skirts and low-cut tops, through the rear-view mirror. Pinky, for her part, sneers at Balram and his crude English and his habit of scratching his crotch while working in the kitchen. In an improbable moment, a drunken Pinky insists on taking the wheel and accidentally runs over the child of a pavement-dweller. There is an attempt to persuade Balram to take the rap and he signs a statement falsely admitting his guilt. But this is unnecessary: the poor have no rights and no one has registered the hit-and-run accident. Still, a disgusted and somewhat remorseful Pinky departs for America and asks for a divorce. Mr Ashok falls into despair, drinking and puking his way through the next few pages. He begins to frequent former girlfriends and the odd blonde Ukrainian prostitute in seedy hotels. Balram is torn between a certain sympathy for his misery and a contempt for his lack of gumption. Contempt triumphs and he begins to contemplate his employer's murder. One rainy night when Mr Ashok is in possession of a large sum in cash, he draws him out of the car, claiming that a tyre needs repair, and kills him with an empty bottle of Johnnie Walker Black Label, smashing his head in and then cutting his throat. Accompanied by a young nephew, he decamps for Bangalore. Of course, Balram knows that his employer's family will visit vengeance on his. But he doesn't care. His brothers and their children may be slaughtered, the women of the family may be raped, but he is indifferent. Adiga wants us to see all this as emblematic of the new Indian tough guy, the murderous entrepreneur who will step over any number of dead bodies to get his way. The idea of a resentful, oppressed protagonist murdering his employer and getting away with it in pursuit of his ideal of social mobility is not much of a novelty. Any innovation must therefore be sought in the novel's narrative voice. But there is also a framing device that should be mentioned: each chapter consists of a message sent by Balram to Wen Jiabao, the prime minister of the People's Republic of China, who is about to visit Bangalore. This adds nothing to the novel beyond permitting Balram to present himself as a Third World rather than a merely Indian racist. Consciously or not, it also imitates far funnier and more successful examples, such as John Barth's 'Petition' from *Lost in the Funhouse*, addressed to the King of Siam. The novel is not, contrary to confused assertions in the Indian press, another attempt at a form of Indian magical realism in the wake of Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy. No one has telepathic or supernatural powers here; time is broadly Newtonian in its flow. This is a novel that wants to be realistic, even if the realism is meant to be understood as tinged with black comedy. There may even be some moralising intention, with Adiga denouncing the greed and corruption of the New Indian Society. But the merit of the book must eventually rest on the credibility and verisimilitude of the voice of Balram Halwai. As it turns out, the Halwais are an upper-middling caste of sweetmeat-makers, resident across large swathes of northern India and often using the caste name of Gupta. Balram is presented in the novel as impoverished but with some education, even if it doesn't give him access to English. 'Neither you nor I speak English,' he writes to Wen Jiabao at the outset of the novel, and yet the novel is written in English. We are meant to believe – even within the conventions of the realist novel – that a person who must really function in Maithili or Bhojpuri can express his thoughts seamlessly in a language that he doesn't speak. This is a problem that takes us back to the roots of the Indian novel in English and its two broad categories. One type deals with Indian characters who speak English because they have had a Western education (as in the work of Vikram Seth), and often involves middle-class angst, urban lust and loss, or satirical views on post-colonial pretension. Some of these novels describe more or less ironically the tragic fate of anglicised members of India's elite colleges, rotting away in the 1980s in the wilds of places like Dhanbad while dreaming of Fleetwood Mac or Supertramp. At its most genteel, this attitude may be found in an Indian-American writer such as Jhumpa Lahiri, whose work would never embrace the subjectivity of a crass chauffeur from Bihar who smashes his employer's head in with a whisky bottle in Dhaula Kuan while chewing betel-leaf. The other – more common – type of novel tries to represent in English dialogue spoken in another language. Some writers, like Raja Rao, adopt an elaborate sing-song tone supposedly intended to correspond to the rhythms not merely of the various Indian vernaculars but of Indian life itself. Others, including Rushdie, have tried the macaronic solution, sprinkling their English with Hindi or Urdu words or even inventing words. Still others, such as Lee Siegel (who navigates between Indology and fiction writing), have attempted for comic effect to have Indians speak in a drolly exaggerated way, through the use of odd vowels and diphthongs. None of these solutions really works; what they bring to mind are the SS officers in World War Two films speaking English among themselves with a strong Mitteleuropean accent. Rushdie's characters sound like no known Indian, but this is not meant to matter because his novels are not realistic. None of these writers has the ethnographic ambitions of a Zola, attempting to capture, notebook in hand, the vocal nuances of the Other. What of Balram Halwai? What does he sound like? Despite the odd *namaste*, * daal*, *paan* and *ghat*, his vocabulary is not sprinkled with North Indian vernacular terms. His sentences are mostly short and crudely constructed, apparently a reflection of the fact that we're dealing with a member of the 'subaltern' classes. He doesn't engage in Rushdian word-play. But he does use a series of expressions that simply don't add up. He describes his office as a 'hole in the wall'. He refers to 'kissing some god's arse', an idiomatic expression that doesn't exist in any North Indian language. 'Half-formed ideas bugger one another, and make more half-formed ideas' and the Chinese prime minister is advised never to 'let that blasphemous idea into your yellow skull'. On another matter, he sneers: 'They're so yesterday.' A clever little phrase appears: 'A statutory warning – as they say on cigarette packs – before we begin.' Dogs are referred to as 'mutts'. Yet whose vocabulary and whose expressions are these? On page after page, one is brought up short by the jangling dissonance of the language and the falsity of the expressions. This is a posh English-educated voice trying to talk dirty, without being able to pull it off. This is not Salinger speaking as Holden Caulfield, or Joyce speaking as Molly Bloom. It is certainly not Ralph Ellison or James Baldwin, whom Adiga has claimed as his models in speaking for the underdog. What we are dealing with is someone with no sense of the texture of Indian vernaculars, yet claiming to have produced a realistic text. Imagine recording the speech of your interlocutor – a driver encountered in a car park in Gurgaon, say – in an Indian language and trying to render it not literally, but credibly, and with some effort at verisimilitude, into English. This is no easy task. The translator always faces dilemmas, of course, and can never get it quite right. But we also know what it is to get it disastrously wrong. It is when the 'autobiography' of an Indian untouchable woman appears in French using expressions from Victor Hugo. The falsity in *The White Tiger* goes much further. It means having a character who cannot read Urdu, and certainly has no notion of Persian, tell us that his favourite poets include Jalaluddin Rumi and Mirza Ghalib. It means having someone who can't read English being able to recall a conversation in which his interlocutor speaks of books by James Hadley Chase, Kahlil Gibran, Adolf Hitler and Desmond Bagley. Try that lot out on a Hindi speaker who knows no English next time you are in India. Adiga gets the tone right only when he writes of the world of the bourgeois. Some of this is quite funny and rings partly true. 'Ashok,' she said. 'Now hear this. Balram, what is it we're eating?' I knew it was a trap, but what could I do? – I answered. The two of them burst into giggles. 'Say it again, Balram.' They laughed again. 'It's not piJJA. It's piZZa. Say it properly.' 'Wait – you're mispronouncing it too. There's a *T* in the middle. *Peet*. * Zah*.' 'Don't correct *my* English, Ashok. There's no *T* in pizza. Look at the box.' Some two decades ago, Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak wrote a celebrated essay, 'Can the Subaltern Speak?' At the time, a folklorist is said to have responded: 'More importantly, can the bourgeois listen?' We can't hear Balram Halwai's voice here, because the author seems to have no access to it. The novel has its share of anger at the injustices of the new, globalised India, and it's good to hear this among the growing chorus of celebratory voices. But its central character comes across as a cardboard cut-out. The paradox is that for many of this novel's readers, this lack of verisimilitude will not matter because for them India is and will remain an exotic place. This book adds another brick to the patronising edifice it wants to tear down. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 17:55:05 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 17:55:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00811090007l135bff7l67d04bcddceecebc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811090425hedf7356i280de462837d8476@mail.gmail.com> prakash, u better stop discussing kashmir as well as I won't allow u to speak about that either. stop behaving like a dictator and stop being a part of plan to get ur opponents evicted. u laal salaam gang always are bad losers. Pawan On 11/9/08, prakash ray wrote: > Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, > > Strangly enough I have many videos listed by one of many Ku Klux Klanists, > including the disturbing film by Sanjay Kak (I was also involved in its > screening in JNU) and some of so-called confessions taken on Gun-point. Mr > Kaul, please tell me where I should go to surrender. You are right that it > is our Police, but many of its deeds make me sad and I feel ashamed whenever > a fake-encounter takes place, whenever false cases are cooked, whenever > Police plays partisan role in riots and carnages, whenever they rape or > molest, whenever they ask for bribes....And then I donot hesitate to point > finger at them. Yes, I am a slave, a slave of my conciousness. Yes, I > surrender, I feel sorry when I am wrong, I ask for forgiveness when I do > wrong. > > When you support or take part (both are same thing at moral/political level) > in activities like spitting, blackening faces, killing, raping, > hate-campaign, you (or anyone) have no right to claim to speak against > certain people or actions. > > You and other members of Ku Klux Klan must get a dose of your own medicine > and MUST BE EVICTED FROM THE LIST. > > This is my country and I cannot allow anything to be done in my name. I > repeat: Not in my name... > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 18:09:11 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 04:39:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse... In-Reply-To: <733327.43844.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <746576.823.qm@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... Kshmendra's use of this language against me on the readers list suggests he might have been abused as a child. If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being abused as a child can create severe mental imbalances and over reactions among people. It might be high time for people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help because it has bearing on his quality of life and of those around him. He may dispute the figures quoted by the 'HE' in the dialogue I posted... in which case he could have placed his counter figures (say a couple of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently asked for the source....There was absolutely no need for him to get abusive. The other more profound explanation could be that it forms part of his socialisation and culture. Brahmin's have long held it to be their right to abuse those whom they consider impure and inferior. So in this light, cases like spitting on someone whom you do not like or calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a 'moron' might be an attempt to reclaim that right and culture against the current community they hate, or to use a turn of phrase, want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be the current objects of hate and insult and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most assertive among them, they happen to be the special targets of abuse. The dialogue i had posted was not about exact statistics of the dead, but two perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers, that the democratic exercise was worthwhile in all circumstances for the collective good... His, that the basic conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to engender such a collectivity have been systematically removed Kashmir. Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on this? --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A filthy lie by Gowhar Fazli. > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , gowharfazili at yahoo.com > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM > Dear Gowhar Fazli >   > The protagonist "HE" in the conversation you have > posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are the > "HE" then you are a filthy liar. >   > I refer to the statement: >   >  """""" The valley has seen > two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land > row.""""""" >   > It is true that 'innocents' have died in the > 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I > consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable > for a civilized society. I consider even the deaths of > those who have consciously chosen the path of violence to > further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, regretable > and avoidable.    >   > But that does not mean that 'morons' like > you should have the licence to float blatant lies on this > List or any other place, perhaps with the smug > thought that you will not be questioned.   >   > Do you want to contest my declaring you a 'filthy > liar'? >   >  I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 to 5 deaths > daily in the 'valley' since the start of the > Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any credible news source > of your choice. A credible  news source would for sure have > a presence on the Web where your statement can be confirmed > as being 'truthful' or as being a 'filthy > lie' as I have called it. >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli > wrote: > > From: gowhar fazli > Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM > > SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! (Commenting on my > status of OBAH MUAH!) > > HE: :) > > SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and bollywud magic > that day on tv > ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and kisses....wah!!! > > HE: and compare the two elections... one in Kashmir n one > in US! > > SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look at the > conduct of political > parties in jk, the language and hate for each other....more > to blame is also > Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream India......in fact in > south Asia, the > polity is mired with corruption, vote bank and slur....we > still have to grow as > a democracy...remember we are only 60..as compared to US > 200. As far as Kashmir > is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly they blame > the Indian govt of > doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman > contesting from > Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what > does the Hurriyat want > ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used > and subverted > democratic institutions for their own interest. U know the > major draw back in > our part of the world is that we do not have the courage > for self correctness, > self introspection.....USA did that....they have brought in > change...I admire > that... > baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... > > HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part > with yours > > SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir > what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call for Jamia > Chalo for killing of 5 > lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... > > HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people protested in Kashmir > for Azadi and were > forced indoors by shooting on the protests... Kashmir is in > no mood for election > right now... yet it has to be imposed... without any > negotiation with the > leadership opposed to it. All that the government can offer > is to impose a > conventional election to meet its deadline to show that all > is well in Kashmir. > It is not. > I think the bigger problem is this not the morality of > our local politicians. > the conditions we live in can only produce the kind of > politicians we presently > have. > USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for eight years > before it was time for > Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides how Kashmiris > should behave and who > should be in power. > Kashmiri leadership has to suite India’s self-image its > foreign policy and > morality. > > SHE: you forget that people who are standing for elections > ( record number > filled in nomination...to counter each other , their party > workers shouting anti > India slogans ) or people wanting to vote are also > Kashmiris. Even Panun > Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for different > reasons. They are > Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want to vote are > Kashmiris too...so are > the Sikhs and not to forget there are Ladhakis , Poocnhis, > etc who want to > vote...no one is shying away from resolving the > issue...spell out the agenda > and ideology and let people decide, why intimidate them, > kill them...why instill > so much hatred in them...and when I say they..I mean all > those, religious > groups, media, separatist so called nationalist.... who > want to build their own > constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or anywhere > else...as I said we need to > sit and talk....chatting on these issues is bit > difficult... > > > HE: I didn’t forget them... Ladakhis, Pandits, > Jammu-ites, and all those who > want to vote for various reasons... Yet daily killing to > keep people to keep > them from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against > elections (peacefully I > do not see pelting stones at heavily armed security forces > from by lanes as > serious violence especially when you are permanently held > under section 144) > cannot be justified because some people there or elsewhere > want to vote. The > context in which elections are happening is pure > imposition... more of what has > been happening all along. > Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling out agendas > is not possible and > largely the establishment which wields power in Kashmir is > responsible for > maintaining such a situation there. There is too much > intelligence > interference... too much security structure to allow people > to breathe... let > alone have a Democratic process. Too much of humiliation > on the daily basis to > let a person feel human enough... Even those who were > alienated from religion > or primordial identities are being pushed to adopt these > for bare survival. In > wake of this the only articulation that is possible is hate > or violence. You > cannot sit on someone’s throat and ask him/her to talk > peace. They might > oblige until you get off... but then hate you with all the > intensity they can > muster soon after that. > I think the situation is like this... We have beaten > Kashmiris to the point of > making them into brutes... and now we justify the > continuity of violence by > saying look they are actually brutes and deserve it! > Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir since late > nineties should have > given a breather to India to bring about a serious > dialogue. But what do they > do? Decide that the temporary lull is the solution and > squander the chance. > We cannot maintain the facade of moral preachers after all > that has happened > in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame and let the > people have their say. > Even though what they decide might not be to our liking and > in our opinion > disastrous for them. Too often our personal interests get > enmeshed with our > moral visions and cloud our judgment such that we cannot > see what is actually > happening to people. > At least I for one have stopped passing judgments on the > people of Kashmir and > demonizing them. I hope more of the civil society > activists who engage with > Kashmir will begin to do so. > > When you refer to intimidation and killing i am surprised > that you miss out the > biggest killing machine in motion right now... the CRPF! > You see we percieve > different realities because of where each of us is located. > The valley has seen > two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath > land row. This seems to > be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. I have my > batchmates within the > force and they give horrifying accounts of how the force > percieves ordinary > Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or humiliated for > no reason but for > what they are. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Nov 9 20:31:37 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:31:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List Message-ID: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> Dear All, I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, and am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. Unfortunately it is not without precedent. We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with detailed and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', habitually retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their desires to 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the university. Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this list, and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated with 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of insinuations emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj Kaul) that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or the broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' and further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when the debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's propoganda agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are being paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their local clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign hand' theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian politicians (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is the true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on to the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani keeps, such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in Kashmir' luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for their cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that these gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be doing precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden to. Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has been accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called 'puppets of the Chinese'. Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually either. The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we are writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to take on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank accounts suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think that my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at such low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is paid by the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No payments are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing either. My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the Reader List either. I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the Sarai programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my professional standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially as this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to ignore the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown in the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then we are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think deserves to be ignored or overlooked. Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote with the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, so that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow each quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized for reasons of emphasis (mine). -------------------------- 1. Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out soon..." MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by a foreign country' (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being ascertained' (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how he can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or stand charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character and reputation of people in a public forum. In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count as sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? 2. Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List on any subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to know what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List is a 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate this, it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I do, or have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. In other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? 3. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support their cause by trying to create an opinion..." MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from reading this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again because this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked immediately before this still hold. 4. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also IT IS NOT MY PAID JOB." MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the way he does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds 5. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we would continue to counter their agenda..." MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a list of my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here that I write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. 6. Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced persons’ status Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I mean." MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does "Chinese ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for Chinese cuisine? I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is referring to a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically those in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China. If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he would identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics of Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on record to point out the similarities between the way in which the government of mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. 7. Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand ‘internally displaced persons’ status 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 (from Aditya Raj Kaul) "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS TONE..." MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation that anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the behest of their masters. ----------------- Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 (from Aditya Raj Kaul) "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK MY COMMENT: None __________________________ I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the date and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof for what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and scurrilous postings aimed at me and others on this list. If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, if the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the list administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with immediate effect. Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in favour of freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a half) the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in serious offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their rubbish time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on grounds of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit of the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger need a hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies. But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they can do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or conjecture. Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments and better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal lives and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread poison if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have to be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a foreign power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I am not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests that I am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement about concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to settle this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation proves what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the grounds of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a person or persons with the freedom of expression. I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. regards Shuddha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 20:41:36 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 07:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse... In-Reply-To: <746576.823.qm@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <429728.39996.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Gowhar Fazili   The 'theatre of false propaganda' is something I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in 'aside' seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of information. In this case your 'filthy lie' of:    """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row."""""""   (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2)   A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy lie' wherever it might be placed and whosoever might be it's author, whether in a factual representation or in a fictional one. If you are not the protagonist "HE" in your conversation piece then you should not be miffed about any comments directed at "HIM".   Incidentally the word "moron" to describe someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) is a word that I have not introduced into this List to describe someone like you.   If it is you who is the "HE" in your conversation piece then for sure you are a "moron' and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of what you call 'abuse'.   You whine that I should have placed 'counter figures' of what you think would be "a dozen more or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine considering the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) realistic 'death count' and the 'figures' suggested by you by extrapolating your 'daily death count of 2 to 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. There, one more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot.   If the "Amarnath Land Row" started sometime in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since it started. Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to 5',  the 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. Do you see what an 'idiot' you are?   In this particular case let me distort the application of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The "Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies)" In this case your assertion of  """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row.""""""" Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to place me into a compartment for which you have the identifying construct of "abused as a child"; "severe mental imbalance"; "(needing) psychological help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for abuse".   This is one more 'theatrical device' in the 'theatre of false propaganda'. If questioned about "filthy lies" for which you have no justifiable, credible and believable response you attack the questioner and attribute such characteristics to him/her that will demonise him/her so as to be viewed with suspicion and shift focus from your own 'filthy lie'.   All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me can only serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not excuse your "filthy lie"   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli wrote: From: gowhar fazli Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse... To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... Kshmendra's use of this language against me on the readers list suggests he might have been abused as a child. If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being abused as a child can create severe mental imbalances and over reactions among people. It might be high time for people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help because it has bearing on his quality of life and of those around him. He may dispute the figures quoted by the 'HE' in the dialogue I posted... in which case he could have placed his counter figures (say a couple of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently asked for the source....There was absolutely no need for him to get abusive. The other more profound explanation could be that it forms part of his socialisation and culture. Brahmin's have long held it to be their right to abuse those whom they consider impure and inferior. So in this light, cases like spitting on someone whom you do not like or calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a 'moron' might be an attempt to reclaim that right and culture against the current community they hate, or to use a turn of phrase, want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be the current objects of hate and insult and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most assertive among them, they happen to be the special targets of abuse. The dialogue i had posted was not about exact statistics of the dead, but two perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers, that the democratic exercise was worthwhile in all circumstances for the collective good... His, that the basic conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to engender such a collectivity have been systematically removed Kashmir. Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on this? --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A filthy lie by Gowhar Fazli. > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , gowharfazili at yahoo.com > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM > Dear Gowhar Fazli >   > The protagonist "HE" in the conversation you have > posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are the > "HE" then you are a filthy liar. >   > I refer to the statement: >   >  """""" The valley has seen > two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land > row.""""""" >   > It is true that 'innocents' have died in the > 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I > consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable > for a civilized society. I consider even the deaths of > those who have consciously chosen the path of violence to > further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, regretable > and avoidable.    >   > But that does not mean that 'morons' like > you should have the licence to float blatant lies on this > List or any other place, perhaps with the smug > thought that you will not be questioned.   >   > Do you want to contest my declaring you a 'filthy > liar'? >   >  I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 to 5 deaths > daily in the 'valley' since the start of the > Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any credible news source > of your choice. A credible  news source would for sure have > a presence on the Web where your statement can be confirmed > as being 'truthful' or as being a 'filthy > lie' as I have called it. >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli > wrote: > > From: gowhar fazli > Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM > > SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! (Commenting on my > status of OBAH MUAH!) > > HE: :) > > SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and bollywud magic > that day on tv > ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and kisses....wah!!! > > HE: and compare the two elections... one in Kashmir n one > in US! > > SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look at the > conduct of political > parties in jk, the language and hate for each other....more > to blame is also > Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream India......in fact in > south Asia, the > polity is mired with corruption, vote bank and slur....we > still have to grow as > a democracy...remember we are only 60..as compared to US > 200. As far as Kashmir > is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly they blame > the Indian govt of > doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman > contesting from > Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what > does the Hurriyat want > ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used > and subverted > democratic institutions for their own interest. U know the > major draw back in > our part of the world is that we do not have the courage > for self correctness, > self introspection.....USA did that....they have brought in > change...I admire > that... > baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... > > HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part > with yours > > SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir > what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call for Jamia > Chalo for killing of 5 > lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... > > HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people protested in Kashmir > for Azadi and were > forced indoors by shooting on the protests... Kashmir is in > no mood for election > right now... yet it has to be imposed... without any > negotiation with the > leadership opposed to it. All that the government can offer > is to impose a > conventional election to meet its deadline to show that all > is well in Kashmir. > It is not. > I think the bigger problem is this not the morality of > our local politicians. > the conditions we live in can only produce the kind of > politicians we presently > have. > USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for eight years > before it was time for > Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides how Kashmiris > should behave and who > should be in power. > Kashmiri leadership has to suite India’s self-image its > foreign policy and > morality. > > SHE: you forget that people who are standing for elections > ( record number > filled in nomination...to counter each other , their party > workers shouting anti > India slogans ) or people wanting to vote are also > Kashmiris. Even Panun > Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for different > reasons. They are > Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want to vote are > Kashmiris too...so are > the Sikhs and not to forget there are Ladhakis , Poocnhis, > etc who want to > vote...no one is shying away from resolving the > issue...spell out the agenda > and ideology and let people decide, why intimidate them, > kill them...why instill > so much hatred in them...and when I say they..I mean all > those, religious > groups, media, separatist so called nationalist.... who > want to build their own > constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or anywhere > else...as I said we need to > sit and talk....chatting on these issues is bit > difficult... > > > HE: I didn’t forget them... Ladakhis, Pandits, > Jammu-ites, and all those who > want to vote for various reasons... Yet daily killing to > keep people to keep > them from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against > elections (peacefully I > do not see pelting stones at heavily armed security forces > from by lanes as > serious violence especially when you are permanently held > under section 144) > cannot be justified because some people there or elsewhere > want to vote. The > context in which elections are happening is pure > imposition... more of what has > been happening all along. > Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling out agendas > is not possible and > largely the establishment which wields power in Kashmir is > responsible for > maintaining such a situation there. There is too much > intelligence > interference... too much security structure to allow people > to breathe... let > alone have a Democratic process. Too much of humiliation > on the daily basis to > let a person feel human enough... Even those who were > alienated from religion > or primordial identities are being pushed to adopt these > for bare survival. In > wake of this the only articulation that is possible is hate > or violence. You > cannot sit on someone’s throat and ask him/her to talk > peace. They might > oblige until you get off... but then hate you with all the > intensity they can > muster soon after that. > I think the situation is like this... We have beaten > Kashmiris to the point of > making them into brutes... and now we justify the > continuity of violence by > saying look they are actually brutes and deserve it! > Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir since late > nineties should have > given a breather to India to bring about a serious > dialogue. But what do they > do? Decide that the temporary lull is the solution and > squander the chance. > We cannot maintain the facade of moral preachers after all > that has happened > in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame and let the > people have their say. > Even though what they decide might not be to our liking and > in our opinion > disastrous for them. Too often our personal interests get > enmeshed with our > moral visions and cloud our judgment such that we cannot > see what is actually > happening to people. > At least I for one have stopped passing judgments on the > people of Kashmir and > demonizing them. I hope more of the civil society > activists who engage with > Kashmir will begin to do so. > > When you refer to intimidation and killing i am surprised > that you miss out the > biggest killing machine in motion right now... the CRPF! > You see we percieve > different realities because of where each of us is located. > The valley has seen > two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath > land row. This seems to > be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. I have my > batchmates within the > force and they give horrifying accounts of how the force > percieves ordinary > Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or humiliated for > no reason but for > what they are. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 21:32:26 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:32:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> Message-ID: <73eb60090811090802lc39c17bp5fc62aa1f6a1c462@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha and all I agree with you - I think we have had enough. Even I tried ineffectively to intervene and requested people to stop sullying each other and come to the point - discuss more practical solutions to your problems. But it seems they don't have any real issues to discuss. All they do is to prove everyone an agent of someone or the other. I agree that people like Pawan Durani and Adityaraj Kaul should be expelled from the reader-list. There is a limit to tolerance. Although they may try to sneak in again by different email IDs, but there has to be a way out to block them. Maybe you should scrutinize all new memberships of the reader-list from now on, and make new members only on invitation. In fact I would request these folks to start a new email group to discuss their issues. They can invite members of Sarai to join the group if anyone likes. Kirdar On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our > list, and am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > Unfortunately it is not without precedent. > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > detailed and cross referenced material that does not support their > 'case', habitually retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They > express their desires to 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their > ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies spit on the faces of university > lecturers invited to speak at the university. > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this > list, and in the online communications emanating from individuals > associated with 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > insinuations emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late > from Aditya Raj Kaul) that suggest that whosoever does not agree with > the PK/RIK gospel or the broad hardline Indian nationalist position > on anything must be doing so because they are actively doing the > bidding of their 'foreign masters' and further, because they are > being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical horizons are severely > limited and compromised, the makers of these accusations cannot > imagine that some of us take a principled position against the things > that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for the ethical > basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being adversarial > purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' and > journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made > when the debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay > Kak's propoganda agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are > being paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or > their local clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of > the foreign hand' theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal > weapon) that Indian politicians (and not only Indian politicians) > resort to when all else fails. It is the true hallmark of a failure > of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and dismal poverty of > the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails to conceal a > rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on > to the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > keeps, such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots > in Kashmir' luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' > to write for their cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is > the only one that these gentlemen understand, because at least in > this case, they seem to be doing precisely what (offering a bribe) > that they accuse us of being beholden to. Rather, this is a case of > one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the fact that they lament > not having their current adversaries as their own 'paid agents'. Why > else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree with them a > 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has > been accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > accused of taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been > two specific occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have > been called 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > either. > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what > we are writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or > 'terrorist' is greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, > I am willing to take on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the > fact that my bank accounts suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know > that Pawan Durani should think that my political convictions and > reflections are available for purchase at such low rates in the > market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who writes not > out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from my > 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is > paid by the hosts or the administrator of the list to write > anything. No payments are sought from the hosts or administrator for > any kind of writing either. My professional responsibilities at Sarai > do not include writing on the Reader List either. > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the > Sarai programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > professional standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it > lightly, especially as this has been made on a very public forum. I > may have been willing to ignore the odd barb of this nature (and it > is not that it has not been thrown in the past) but when we get seven > defamatory missives in two weeks, then we are looking at a serious > and determined pattern that I do not think deserves to be ignored or > overlooked. > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote > with the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > taken, so that they can be traced easily by all list members. My > comments follow each quotation. Certain portions within each > quotation have been capitalized for reasons of emphasis (mine). > > -------------------------- > 1. > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who > created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , > Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > soon..." > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed > by a foreign country' > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > ascertained' > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of > how he can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) > above, or stand charged of making baseless allegations designed to > malign the character and reputation of people in a public forum. > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > count as sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > 2. > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME > JOB FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List > on any subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I > want to know what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on > the Reader List is a 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if > he cannot substantiate this, it will amount to defamation because it > will imply that I say what I do, or have the political convictions > that I have because I am paid for this. In other words, that I am a > 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, I would again > like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or allowed > to continue to make allegations without basis? > > 3. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > support their > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > reading this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid > job' (again because this is addressed to me). Once again, the > questions I have asked immediately before this still hold. > > 4. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and > also IT IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the > way he does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > 5. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and > we would continue to counter their agenda..." > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a > list of my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is > making here that I write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If > he does not have this proof, then again, I am constrained to ask > whether or not he should be expelled from the list for reasons of > defamation. > > 6. > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I > mean." > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > "Chinese ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > Kuomintang Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural > preference for Chinese cuisine? > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > referring to a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > specifically those in positions of power within the Chinese Communist > Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China. > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > would identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > critics of Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and > the government of the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have > in fact gone on record to point out the similarities between the way > in which the government of mainland China deals with Tibet, and the > way in which the Government of India deals with the occupation that > it undertakes in Kashmir. > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > > 7. > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > TONE..." > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation > that anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act > at the behest of their masters. > > ----------------- > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > MY COMMENT: None > __________________________ > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from > the date and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, > substantiatable proof for what I consider to be the allegations in > their defamatory and scurrilous postings aimed at me and others on > this list. > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, > if the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > and inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request > the list administrator that both of them be expelled from this list > with immediate effect. > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > favour of freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last > year and a half) the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and > their allies (in serious offline discussions) to continue to torment > this list with their rubbish time and time again when demands have > been made for his expulsion on grounds of 'hate speech'. I am willing > to go the extra mile to give the benefit of the doubt when someone > stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do not agree with > them, because I think that even things said in anger need a hearing. > And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul > and their allies. > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that > they can do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > conjecture. Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered > by arguments and better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack > peoples personal lives and conduct, especially when they are uttered > on public fora, spread poison if they are not dealt with exemplary > and immediate severity. There have to be consequences for such > conduct, no matter who does it. > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > foreign power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I > am, or I am not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to > above suggests that I am, and several others on the list are. And > since this is a statement about concrete people, not about some > abstractions . then the only way to settle this is to demand that the > person or persons making the allegation proves what they say, or > faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The reason I am > saying this is because there actually are very serious consequences > to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in this > country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel > and cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > the grounds of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying > itself and the reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license > to defame a person or persons with the freedom of expression. > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dan.ayyaar at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 22:18:57 2008 From: dan.ayyaar at gmail.com (Danish Husain) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:18:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> Message-ID: <61cdd2df0811090848j8f973d4y176c8c9e54e658b3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha: I think you've been very lenient by leaving out few other illustrious people who've been libellous and have been defaming many at free will on this list. Please expel them immediately because it's been painful to delete trash from my inbox everyday. I am sure there are many forums who'd willingly embrace our chest-baring jingoists. And anyway why should they waste time with few paid commies and foreign stooges. I guess expulsion would save them lot of heartburns and they can apply their energies more fervently on forums where people would worship them for taking up their cause. We here are all for freedom of words but not for freedom of spitting. And lastly, I resisted but I can't help saying it that the "chinese ideology" you ferreted out, let alone knowing them they can't even spell half of them. Thanks for speaking out on behalf of the tormented membership of this list. Warmly, D On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our > list, and am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > Unfortunately it is not without precedent. > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > detailed and cross referenced material that does not support their > 'case', habitually retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They > express their desires to 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their > ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies spit on the faces of university > lecturers invited to speak at the university. > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this > list, and in the online communications emanating from individuals > associated with 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > insinuations emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late > from Aditya Raj Kaul) that suggest that whosoever does not agree with > the PK/RIK gospel or the broad hardline Indian nationalist position > on anything must be doing so because they are actively doing the > bidding of their 'foreign masters' and further, because they are > being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical horizons are severely > limited and compromised, the makers of these accusations cannot > imagine that some of us take a principled position against the things > that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for the ethical > basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being adversarial > purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' and > journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made > when the debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay > Kak's propoganda agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are > being paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or > their local clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of > the foreign hand' theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal > weapon) that Indian politicians (and not only Indian politicians) > resort to when all else fails. It is the true hallmark of a failure > of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and dismal poverty of > the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails to conceal a > rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on > to the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > keeps, such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots > in Kashmir' luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' > to write for their cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is > the only one that these gentlemen understand, because at least in > this case, they seem to be doing precisely what (offering a bribe) > that they accuse us of being beholden to. Rather, this is a case of > one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the fact that they lament > not having their current adversaries as their own 'paid agents'. Why > else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree with them a > 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has > been accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > accused of taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been > two specific occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have > been called 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > either. > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what > we are writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or > 'terrorist' is greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, > I am willing to take on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the > fact that my bank accounts suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know > that Pawan Durani should think that my political convictions and > reflections are available for purchase at such low rates in the > market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who writes not > out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from my > 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is > paid by the hosts or the administrator of the list to write > anything. No payments are sought from the hosts or administrator for > any kind of writing either. My professional responsibilities at Sarai > do not include writing on the Reader List either. > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the > Sarai programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > professional standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it > lightly, especially as this has been made on a very public forum. I > may have been willing to ignore the odd barb of this nature (and it > is not that it has not been thrown in the past) but when we get seven > defamatory missives in two weeks, then we are looking at a serious > and determined pattern that I do not think deserves to be ignored or > overlooked. > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote > with the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > taken, so that they can be traced easily by all list members. My > comments follow each quotation. Certain portions within each > quotation have been capitalized for reasons of emphasis (mine). > > -------------------------- > 1. > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who > created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , > Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > soon..." > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed > by a foreign country' > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > ascertained' > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of > how he can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) > above, or stand charged of making baseless allegations designed to > malign the character and reputation of people in a public forum. > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > count as sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > 2. > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME > JOB FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List > on any subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I > want to know what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on > the Reader List is a 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if > he cannot substantiate this, it will amount to defamation because it > will imply that I say what I do, or have the political convictions > that I have because I am paid for this. In other words, that I am a > 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, I would again > like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or allowed > to continue to make allegations without basis? > > 3. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > support their > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > reading this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid > job' (again because this is addressed to me). Once again, the > questions I have asked immediately before this still hold. > > 4. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and > also IT IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the > way he does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > 5. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and > we would continue to counter their agenda..." > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a > list of my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is > making here that I write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If > he does not have this proof, then again, I am constrained to ask > whether or not he should be expelled from the list for reasons of > defamation. > > 6. > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I > mean." > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > "Chinese ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > Kuomintang Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural > preference for Chinese cuisine? > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > referring to a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > specifically those in positions of power within the Chinese Communist > Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China. > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > would identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > critics of Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and > the government of the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have > in fact gone on record to point out the similarities between the way > in which the government of mainland China deals with Tibet, and the > way in which the Government of India deals with the occupation that > it undertakes in Kashmir. > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > > 7. > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' status > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > TONE..." > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation > that anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act > at the behest of their masters. > > ----------------- > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > MY COMMENT: None > __________________________ > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from > the date and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, > substantiatable proof for what I consider to be the allegations in > their defamatory and scurrilous postings aimed at me and others on > this list. > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, > if the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > and inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request > the list administrator that both of them be expelled from this list > with immediate effect. > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > favour of freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last > year and a half) the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and > their allies (in serious offline discussions) to continue to torment > this list with their rubbish time and time again when demands have > been made for his expulsion on grounds of 'hate speech'. I am willing > to go the extra mile to give the benefit of the doubt when someone > stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do not agree with > them, because I think that even things said in anger need a hearing. > And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul > and their allies. > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that > they can do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > conjecture. Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered > by arguments and better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack > peoples personal lives and conduct, especially when they are uttered > on public fora, spread poison if they are not dealt with exemplary > and immediate severity. There have to be consequences for such > conduct, no matter who does it. > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > foreign power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I > am, or I am not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to > above suggests that I am, and several others on the list are. And > since this is a statement about concrete people, not about some > abstractions . then the only way to settle this is to demand that the > person or persons making the allegation proves what they say, or > faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The reason I am > saying this is because there actually are very serious consequences > to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in this > country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel > and cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > the grounds of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying > itself and the reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license > to defame a person or persons with the freedom of expression. > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lists at shivamvij.com Sun Nov 9 22:38:18 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:38:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'The Multipolar Truth of Kandhamal Conflict' Message-ID: <1fd66c110811090908n41742703p482bbc31730c7e2a@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends, Conversations and reports on the continuing conflict in Kandhamal has centred around the issue of Conversions. So you are either for or against conversion. But like all localised conflicts, there is a local context and a history. In this illuminating article in Mainstream , 'KB' writes of the 'multipolar' truths of Kandhamal. The way this article lays bare the conflict, it becomes difficult to take sides. Excerpt: So there are a number of parallel conflicts in Kandhamal: (i) Kandhas versus linguistic Oriyas, (ii) Kandhas versus Christian Panas, (iii) Kandhas versus Hindus in general, (iv) Kandhas versus Oriya Hindus, (v) Kandhas versus Oriya landlords and businessmen, (vi) Kandhas versus the Indian state. These apart, there were the demands of keeping the Kandha culture, language and identity alive and these added unique dynamics to extant problems. These conflicts are active all at the same time or one at a time. The Hindutva attack on the Christian Panas is manifestation of the ethnic and economic divide that found expression in the language of communal hatred. Various chapters of the problem are underlined by land, water, ethnicity, religion, forest and other such issues that mattered to both the tribals and non-tribals. Mainstream, Vol XLVI No 46 The Multipolar Truth of Kandhamal Conflict by K.B., 4 November 2008 http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article1006.html From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 23:31:49 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:31:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <61cdd2df0811090848j8f973d4y176c8c9e54e658b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <61cdd2df0811090848j8f973d4y176c8c9e54e658b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811091001s486fe034he101f8484d3f820f@mail.gmail.com> i believe, majority opinion on the list would like them ( aditya ji and pawan ji, chanchal ji, radhikarajan and few others like that ) to just read the mails and not reflect back, but that is unlikely. so it looks reasonable to delete their names. Having said that, i dont give special marks to myself to reflect on each and every post as and when they appears on the List, but as i look back, most of my reflections happened because of theirs..... so best is On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Danish Husain wrote: > Dear Shuddha: a > > I think you've been very lenient by leaving out few other illustrious people > who've been libellous and have been defaming many at free will on this list. > Please expel them immediately because it's been painful to delete trash from > my inbox everyday. I am sure there are many forums who'd willingly embrace > our chest-baring jingoists. And anyway why should they waste time with few > paid commies and foreign stooges. I guess expulsion would save them lot of > heartburns and they can apply their energies more fervently on forums where > people would worship them for taking up their cause. We here are all for > freedom of words but not for freedom of spitting. > > And lastly, I resisted but I can't help saying it that the "chinese > ideology" you ferreted out, let alone knowing them they can't even spell > half of them. > > Thanks for speaking out on behalf of the tormented membership of this list. > > Warmly, > > D > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, and am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> Unfortunately it is not without precedent. >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> detailed and cross referenced material that does not support their >> 'case', habitually retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They >> express their desires to 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their >> ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies spit on the faces of university >> lecturers invited to speak at the university. >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> list, and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> associated with 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> insinuations emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late >> from Aditya Raj Kaul) that suggest that whosoever does not agree with >> the PK/RIK gospel or the broad hardline Indian nationalist position >> on anything must be doing so because they are actively doing the >> bidding of their 'foreign masters' and further, because they are >> being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical horizons are severely >> limited and compromised, the makers of these accusations cannot >> imagine that some of us take a principled position against the things >> that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for the ethical >> basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being adversarial >> purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' and >> journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when the debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay >> Kak's propoganda agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> being paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >> their local clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of >> the foreign hand' theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal >> weapon) that Indian politicians (and not only Indian politicians) >> resort to when all else fails. It is the true hallmark of a failure >> of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and dismal poverty of >> the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails to conceal a >> rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on >> to the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> keeps, such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots >> in Kashmir' luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' >> to write for their cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is >> the only one that these gentlemen understand, because at least in >> this case, they seem to be doing precisely what (offering a bribe) >> that they accuse us of being beholden to. Rather, this is a case of >> one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the fact that they lament >> not having their current adversaries as their own 'paid agents'. Why >> else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree with them a >> 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has >> been accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >> accused of taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been >> two specific occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have >> been called 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> either. >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we are writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >> 'terrorist' is greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, >> I am willing to take on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the >> fact that my bank accounts suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know >> that Pawan Durani should think that my political convictions and >> reflections are available for purchase at such low rates in the >> market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who writes not >> out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from my >> 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> paid by the hosts or the administrator of the list to write >> anything. No payments are sought from the hosts or administrator for >> any kind of writing either. My professional responsibilities at Sarai >> do not include writing on the Reader List either. >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the >> Sarai programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> professional standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it >> lightly, especially as this has been made on a very public forum. I >> may have been willing to ignore the odd barb of this nature (and it >> is not that it has not been thrown in the past) but when we get seven >> defamatory missives in two weeks, then we are looking at a serious >> and determined pattern that I do not think deserves to be ignored or >> overlooked. >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> with the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> taken, so that they can be traced easily by all list members. My >> comments follow each quotation. Certain portions within each >> quotation have been capitalized for reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> -------------------------- >> 1. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who >> created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , >> Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> soon..." >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by a foreign country' >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> ascertained' >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> how he can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) >> above, or stand charged of making baseless allegations designed to >> malign the character and reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> count as sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> 2. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> JOB FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List >> on any subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >> want to know what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on >> the Reader List is a 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if >> he cannot substantiate this, it will amount to defamation because it >> will imply that I say what I do, or have the political convictions >> that I have because I am paid for this. In other words, that I am a >> 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, I would again >> like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or allowed >> to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> 3. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from Kashmir >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> support their >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> reading this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid >> job' (again because this is addressed to me). Once again, the >> questions I have asked immediately before this still hold. >> >> 4. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from Kashmir >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> also IT IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> way he does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> 5. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from Kashmir >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >> we would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> list of my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is >> making here that I write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If >> he does not have this proof, then again, I am constrained to ask >> whether or not he should be expelled from the list for reasons of >> defamation. >> >> 6. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> mean." >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> "Chinese ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> Kuomintang Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >> preference for Chinese cuisine? >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> referring to a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> specifically those in positions of power within the Chinese Communist >> Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> would identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> critics of Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and >> the government of the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have >> in fact gone on record to point out the similarities between the way >> in which the government of mainland China deals with Tibet, and the >> way in which the Government of India deals with the occupation that >> it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >> >> 7. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> TONE..." >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> that anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act >> at the behest of their masters. >> >> ----------------- >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> __________________________ >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> the date and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, >> substantiatable proof for what I consider to be the allegations in >> their defamatory and scurrilous postings aimed at me and others on >> this list. >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, >> if the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated >> and inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >> the list administrator that both of them be expelled from this list >> with immediate effect. >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> favour of freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last >> year and a half) the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and >> their allies (in serious offline discussions) to continue to torment >> this list with their rubbish time and time again when demands have >> been made for his expulsion on grounds of 'hate speech'. I am willing >> to go the extra mile to give the benefit of the doubt when someone >> stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do not agree with >> them, because I think that even things said in anger need a hearing. >> And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul >> and their allies. >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they can do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> conjecture. Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered >> by arguments and better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack >> peoples personal lives and conduct, especially when they are uttered >> on public fora, spread poison if they are not dealt with exemplary >> and immediate severity. There have to be consequences for such >> conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> foreign power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >> am, or I am not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to >> above suggests that I am, and several others on the list are. And >> since this is a statement about concrete people, not about some >> abstractions . then the only way to settle this is to demand that the >> person or persons making the allegation proves what they say, or >> faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The reason I am >> saying this is because there actually are very serious consequences >> to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in this >> country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on >> the grounds of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying >> itself and the reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license >> to defame a person or persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 16:13:58 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 02:43:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Jai Hind Message-ID: <772683.56224.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All,           Jai Hind!   Jai Hind Dhatri. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 20:14:50 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 06:44:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ek Vivah aisa bhi Message-ID: <414624.69700.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear all,        What a movie!!! Really everybody should watch it!  The real Indian culture,tradition and true emotions.  Great direction and superb action too ofcourse.   Regards, Dhatri. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 20:26:07 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 06:56:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police In-Reply-To: <98f331e00811081024j5f924c03h769cfd4d53679a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <555451.70858.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Prakash,         Your marriage is also in the horror list!  Wow Let your family know about this once and  Find yourself !  There is nothing wrong if you have cds as you are an ADULT, but by watching these if you became a psycho then surely not your/our police but your family take further steps(house arrest in a mental asylum).  So take care!        huha INDIA! huha INDIA! huha INDIA!   Regards, Dhatri. --- On Sat, 11/8/08, prakash ray wrote: From: prakash ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 11:54 PM Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, I have CDs/DVDs featuring: Demolition of the Babri Mosque Gujarat Carnage 2002 9/11 attacks on WTC Taliban killings people US army torture prisoners US forces killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan Heroshima Bombings Dr Binayak Sen Bal Thakrey's nephew Raj Thakrey Jan Adalat by Maoists Violence in Nandigram My marriage Films made by Michael Moore The Great Dictator by Chaplin ....... Tell your police to arrest me...huh!! Prakash * * _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 00:16:42 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:16:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse... In-Reply-To: <429728.39996.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <746576.823.qm@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <429728.39996.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811091046y4576d332s562f36297cf9d2bb@mail.gmail.com> to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that is the question: A reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and Kshmendra ---- ( keeping in mind that the facts are stranger than fiction, but the reverse can be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet theirs only ) Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about exact statistics of the dead, but two perspectives on the election in Kashmir. Even Panun Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, since late nineties, should have given a breather to India to bring about a serious dialogue. But what do they do? Kshmendra: I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used and subverted democratic institutions for their own interest. Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part with yours. The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row. ( I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and Cosmic SHE will be talking to each other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in kashmir ?) Kshmendra : You filthy lair. Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine. Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized society. But yours, is one more 'theatrical device' in the 'theatre of false propaganda. Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom you do not like or calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a 'moron' Kshmendra : for sure you are a "moron' and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of what you call 'abuse'. Gowhar : 'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how Kashmiris should behave and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership has to suite India's self-image its foreign policy and morality.' that the basic conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to engender such a collectively have been systematically removed from Kashmir; Just to keep people from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against elections… to be continued.... On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Gowhar Fazili > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is something I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in 'aside' seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of information. In this case your 'filthy lie' of: > > """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row.""""""" > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2) > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy lie' wherever it might be placed and whosoever might be it's author, whether in a factual representation or in a fictional one. > > If you are not the protagonist "HE" in your conversation piece then you should not be miffed about any comments directed at "HIM". > > Incidentally the word "moron" to describe someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) is a word that I have not introduced into this List to describe someone like you. > > If it is you who is the "HE" in your conversation piece then for sure you are a "moron' and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of what you call 'abuse'. > > You whine that I should have placed 'counter figures' of what you think would be "a dozen more or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine considering the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) realistic 'death count' and the 'figures' suggested by you by extrapolating your 'daily death count of 2 to 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. There, one more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot. > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started sometime in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since it started. Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to 5', the 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. Do you see what an 'idiot' you are? > > In this particular case let me distort the application of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The "Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies)" In this case your assertion of """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row.""""""" > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to place me into a compartment for which you have the identifying construct of "abused as a child"; "severe mental imbalance"; "(needing) psychological help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for abuse". > > This is one more 'theatrical device' in the 'theatre of false propaganda'. If questioned about "filthy lies" for which you have no justifiable, credible and believable response you attack the questioner and attribute such characteristics to him/her that will demonise him/her so as to be viewed with suspicion and shift focus from your own 'filthy lie'. > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me can only serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not excuse your "filthy lie" > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > From: gowhar fazli > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse... > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... Kshmendra's use of this language > against me on the readers list suggests he might have been abused as a child. > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being abused as a child can create severe > mental imbalances and over reactions among people. It might be high time for > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help because it has bearing on his > quality of life and of those around him. > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the 'HE' in the dialogue I > posted... in which case he could have placed his counter figures (say a couple > of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently asked for the source....There was > absolutely no need for him to get abusive. > > The other more profound explanation could be that it forms part of his > socialisation and culture. Brahmin's have long held it to be their right to > abuse those whom they consider impure and inferior. So in this light, cases > like spitting on someone whom you do not like or calling somebody a 'filthy > liar' or a 'moron' might be an attempt to reclaim that right and > culture against the current community they hate, or to use a turn of phrase, > want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be the current objects of hate and insult > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most assertive among them, they happen to > be the special targets of abuse. > > The dialogue i had posted was not about exact statistics of the dead, but two > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers, that the democratic exercise > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the collective good... His, that the > basic conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to engender such a > collectivity have been systematically removed Kashmir. > > Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on this? > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A filthy lie by Gowhar Fazli. >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , > gowharfazili at yahoo.com >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM >> Dear Gowhar Fazli >> >> The protagonist "HE" in the conversation you have >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are the >> "HE" then you are a filthy liar. >> >> I refer to the statement: >> >> """""" The valley has seen >> two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land >> row.""""""" >> >> It is true that 'innocents' have died in the >> 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I >> consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable >> for a civilized society. I consider even the deaths of >> those who have consciously chosen the path of violence to >> further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, regretable >> and avoidable. >> >> But that does not mean that 'morons' like >> you should have the licence to float blatant lies on this >> List or any other place, perhaps with the smug >> thought that you will not be questioned. >> >> Do you want to contest my declaring you a 'filthy >> liar'? >> >> I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 to 5 deaths >> daily in the 'valley' since the start of the >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any credible news source >> of your choice. A credible news source would for sure have >> a presence on the Web where your statement can be confirmed >> as being 'truthful' or as being a 'filthy >> lie' as I have called it. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli >> wrote: >> >> From: gowhar fazli >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" >> >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM >> >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! (Commenting on my >> status of OBAH MUAH!) >> >> HE: :) >> >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and bollywud magic >> that day on tv >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and kisses....wah!!! >> >> HE: and compare the two elections... one in Kashmir n one >> in US! >> >> SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look at the >> conduct of political >> parties in jk, the language and hate for each other....more >> to blame is also >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream India......in fact in >> south Asia, the >> polity is mired with corruption, vote bank and slur....we >> still have to grow as >> a democracy...remember we are only 60..as compared to US >> 200. As far as Kashmir >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly they blame >> the Indian govt of >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman >> contesting from >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what >> does the Hurriyat want >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used >> and subverted >> democratic institutions for their own interest. U know the >> major draw back in >> our part of the world is that we do not have the courage >> for self correctness, >> self introspection.....USA did that....they have brought in >> change...I admire >> that... >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... >> >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part >> with yours >> >> SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call for Jamia >> Chalo for killing of 5 >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... >> >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people protested in Kashmir >> for Azadi and were >> forced indoors by shooting on the protests... Kashmir is in >> no mood for election >> right now... yet it has to be imposed... without any >> negotiation with the >> leadership opposed to it. All that the government can offer >> is to impose a >> conventional election to meet its deadline to show that all >> is well in Kashmir. >> It is not. >> I think the bigger problem is this not the morality of >> our local politicians. >> the conditions we live in can only produce the kind of >> politicians we presently >> have. >> USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for eight years >> before it was time for >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides how Kashmiris >> should behave and who >> should be in power. >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite India's self-image its >> foreign policy and >> morality. >> >> SHE: you forget that people who are standing for elections >> ( record number >> filled in nomination...to counter each other , their party >> workers shouting anti >> India slogans ) or people wanting to vote are also >> Kashmiris. Even Panun >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for different >> reasons. They are >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want to vote are >> Kashmiris too...so are >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are Ladhakis , Poocnhis, >> etc who want to >> vote...no one is shying away from resolving the >> issue...spell out the agenda >> and ideology and let people decide, why intimidate them, >> kill them...why instill >> so much hatred in them...and when I say they..I mean all >> those, religious >> groups, media, separatist so called nationalist.... who >> want to build their own >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or anywhere >> else...as I said we need to >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues is bit >> difficult... >> >> >> HE: I didn't forget them... Ladakhis, Pandits, >> Jammu-ites, and all those who >> want to vote for various reasons... Yet daily killing to >> keep people to keep >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against >> elections (peacefully I >> do not see pelting stones at heavily armed security forces >> from by lanes as >> serious violence especially when you are permanently held >> under section 144) >> cannot be justified because some people there or elsewhere >> want to vote. The >> context in which elections are happening is pure >> imposition... more of what has >> been happening all along. >> Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling out agendas >> is not possible and >> largely the establishment which wields power in Kashmir is >> responsible for >> maintaining such a situation there. There is too much >> intelligence >> interference... too much security structure to allow people >> to breathe... let >> alone have a Democratic process. Too much of humiliation >> on the daily basis to >> let a person feel human enough... Even those who were >> alienated from religion >> or primordial identities are being pushed to adopt these >> for bare survival. In >> wake of this the only articulation that is possible is hate >> or violence. You >> cannot sit on someone's throat and ask him/her to talk >> peace. They might >> oblige until you get off... but then hate you with all the >> intensity they can >> muster soon after that. >> I think the situation is like this... We have beaten >> Kashmiris to the point of >> making them into brutes... and now we justify the >> continuity of violence by >> saying look they are actually brutes and deserve it! >> Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir since late >> nineties should have >> given a breather to India to bring about a serious >> dialogue. But what do they >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is the solution and >> squander the chance. >> We cannot maintain the facade of moral preachers after all >> that has happened >> in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame and let the >> people have their say. >> Even though what they decide might not be to our liking and >> in our opinion >> disastrous for them. Too often our personal interests get >> enmeshed with our >> moral visions and cloud our judgment such that we cannot >> see what is actually >> happening to people. >> At least I for one have stopped passing judgments on the >> people of Kashmir and >> demonizing them. I hope more of the civil society >> activists who engage with >> Kashmir will begin to do so. >> >> When you refer to intimidation and killing i am surprised >> that you miss out the >> biggest killing machine in motion right now... the CRPF! >> You see we percieve >> different realities because of where each of us is located. >> The valley has seen >> two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath >> land row. This seems to >> be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. I have my >> batchmates within the >> force and they give horrifying accounts of how the force >> percieves ordinary >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or humiliated for >> no reason but for >> what they are. >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From iram at sarai.net Mon Nov 10 00:23:27 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:23:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: 20th year celebrations of Salaam Baalak Trust Message-ID: <491731A7.2020000@sarai.net> fwd - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- -- Subject: 20th year celebrations of Salaam Baalak Trust From: Khan Akif Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:22:18 +0530 (IST) To: announcements at sarai.net Forward of Invitation from Salaam Baalak Trust ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sir Greetings from Salaam Baalak Trust (SBT). We are delighted to invite you to the 20th year celebrations of SBT. Since children love to perform and it provides them an avenue to express themselves, they have created fantastic theater, dance and songs performances on the occasion. We invite you to participate in the events that are planned from 10th till 12th November in Delhi and 14th-16th November 2008 at 6.30 pm in Delhi and Gurgaon, Haryana respectively. There is no entry fee and limits to the audience. Hence you can bring your friends and family to encourage the participants. Attached is the invitation card. Thanking you With regards Rajan Jha Salaam Baalak Trust ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I] Anokha Lalten Chinese lanterns, and dragons interwoven with Indian street theatre Direction: Swaroopa Ghosh Executive Producer: A K Tiwari On 10th and 11th November 08 Time - 6:30 pm At Chinmaya MIssion Auditorium 89 Lodhi Estate, Lodhi Road, New Delhi 110003 and On 14th and 15th November 08 Time - 6:30 pm At Epicentre, Apparel House Sector 44, Gurgaon RSVP: 23681 803 23589 305 www.salaambaalaktrust.org II] Dreams: A Dance and Music Production Choreography: Avinash Yadav Song Composition: Rene Singh On 12th November 08 Time - 6:30 pm At Chinmaya MIssion Auditorium 89 Lodhi Estate, Lodhi Road, New Delhi 110003 and On 16th November 08 Time - 6:30 pm At Epicentre, Apparel House Sector 44, Gurgaon RSVP: 23681 803 23589 305 www.salaambaalaktrust.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Mon Nov 10 00:26:55 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:26:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Panel Discussion- The Media 'Terror' and the Batla House 'Encounter' Message-ID: <49173277.507@sarai.net> Fwd: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Please circulate widely. Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Invites you to a Panel Discussion on The Media 'Terror' and the Batla House 'Encounter' Speakers: Sukumar Muralidharan (Senior Journalist) Ajit Sahi (Tehelka) Poornima Joshi (Mail Today) Gautam Navlakha (Economic and Political Weekly) Date: 11th November 2008 (Tuesday) Time: 2.30 pm Venue: Edward Said Hall (Jamia Millia Islamia) - -- Ambarien Al Qadar From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 01:10:23 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:10:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TADA Court issues production warrants against Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690811091139u3f9386dcs77655e6c3f366a1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690811091139u69579240je54b84e1888e014f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811091139u3f9386dcs77655e6c3f366a1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811091140j5ec0d30m9dd5e688344f313a@mail.gmail.com> *TADA Court issues production * * **warrants against Yaseen Malik* Excelsior Correspondent *JAMMU, Nov 8: *Presiding Officer TADA Court today issued production warrant of JKLF supremo Mohd Yaseen Malik, who is presently lodged in Jammu Jail and Mohd Rafiq alias Nanaji, who is presently lodged in Udhampur Jail for their production in the Court on the next date of hearing in the Rubiya Syed kidnapping case. The Court also issued non-bailable warrants against Yaqoob Pandit, who is also an accused in the case. When the cases of kidnapping of Dr Rubiya Syed and killing of Air-Force personnel came up for hearing before the TADA Court today, Senior Advocate Z A Shah assisted by Advocate Yogesh Bakshi filed an application for transfer of cases from Jammu TADA Court to Srinagar TADA Court. The Court issued notice to CBI for objections in the transferring the application of the cases. The accused who were present in the court today include Zargar, Mohd Iqbal Gandroo, Manzoor Ahmed Sofi, Mohd Zaman Mir while the other accused were exempted by the Court for today as the civil curfew was imposed in the Srinagar. Dr Rubiya Syed, daughter of then Union Home Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed was kidnapped by the accused persons including JKLF supremo in December 1989 when she was going to hospital. She was released after the Government released five hardcore militants of JKLF as demanded by the accused persons. Dr Syed kidnapping and killing of five Air Force officials at Batmaloo in January 1990 cases were investigated by the country's premier investigating agency—CBI and challan was presented in the court of TADA, which have been pending for framing of charges for last more than 15 years. From rama.sangye at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 08:48:01 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:48:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811091918x1e25a62i7baaf510da683b2b@mail.gmail.com> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe that was made in an interview on Fox tv. >From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term "Uncle Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the white man's game and his domination but seeking something better for oneself within that. The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", by Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, silently suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom he continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor rejects. If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle Tom" a few times. Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. I don't think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say certain things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is ultimately a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says how marginalised he was in the mainstream media. Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his "open letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's bending over backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel-based Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has to be played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in that game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think that "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like to think that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and people can by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say what has to be said, and yet prevail. I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to Obama. He is challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that one's harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies like these, who needs friends!" For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on Obama (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a blog post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. Best V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com From rama.sangye at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 08:49:27 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:49:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Obama Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811091919y123f9aedx8d53b3308db82293@mail.gmail.com> >From Economic & Political Weekly, November 1, 2008 The Technician in the Establishment: Obama's America and the World by Vinay Lal On November 4, Barack Obama will in all likelihood be elected the 44th president of the United States. As against the euphoria in the rest of the world about such a presidency, this article reads into his 2006 book (The Audacity of Hope) and his campaign speeches, a different kind of Obama. He emerges as a technician who is best equipped to fix broken policies and get America working once again. One can only hope that a US that is once again working does not mean a US that is more efficient in its exercise of military domination and even more successful in projecting its own vision of human affairs as the only road to the good life. To believe in Obama, one needs to hope against hope. Barack Obama is poised to become the 44th president of the United States. Many see in the ascendancy of a black man to the highest office of the world's hegemon a supremely historic moment in American if not world affairs. Such is the incalculable hold of the US, in times better or worse, on the imagination of people worldwide that many are more heavily invested in the politics and future of the US than they are in the politics of their own nation. There may yet be method to this maddening infatuation, for Iraqis, Afghanis, and Pakistanis, among many others, known and unknown, the target at some point of the military wrath and moral unctuousness of America, may want to reason if their chances of being bombed back into the stone age increase or decrease with the election of one or the other candidate. The French, perhaps best known for the haughty pride in their own culture, were so moved by the events of September 11, 2001, which the Americans have attempted to install as a new era in world history, rendering 9/11 as something akin to BC or AD, that Le Monde famously declared, "Nous sommes tous Americains" (We are all Americans ). One doubts that, had it been Beijing, Delhi, or Dakar that had been so bombed, the French would have declared, We are All Chinese, Indians, or Senegalese. That old imperialist habit of presuming the royal We, thinking that the French or American we is the universal We, has evidently not disappeared. Obama vs McCain There can be little question that Obama's presidency would be much preferable to that of McCain. If nothing else, his presidency is not calculated to be an insult to human intelligence or a complete affront to simple norms of human decency. After eight years of George W Bush, it seemed all but improbable that America could throw up another candidate who is, if not in absolutely identical ways, at least as much of an embarrassment to the US as the incumbent of the White House. But one should never underestimate the genius of America in throwing up crooks, clowns and charlatans into the cauldron of politics. It is likely that McCain has a slightly less convoluted" or should I say jejune " view of world history and geography than Bush, nor is his vocabulary wholly impoverished, but he will not strike anyone with a discerning mind as possessed of a robust intelligence. McCain has already committed so many gaffes, accusing (to take one example) Iran of training Al Qaida extremists, that one wonders whether his much touted "foreign policy experience" amounts to anything at all. In America, it is enough to have a candidate who understands that Iraq and Iran are not only spelled differently but constitute two separate nations. Obama seems so far ahead of the decorated Vietnam war veteran in these respects that it seems pointless to waste any more words on McCain. Obama writes reasonably well, and has even been lauded for his skills as an orator; he is suave, mentally alert, and a keen observer of world affairs. Far too many American elections have offered scenarios where a candidate has been voted into office not on the strength of his intelligence, sound policies, or moral judgment, but because the candidate has appeared to be "the lesser of two evils" . The iconoclast Paul Goodman, writing in the 1960s, gave it as his considered opinion that American elections were an exercise in helping Americans distinguish between undistinguishable Democrats and Republicans, and there are, notwithstanding Obama's appeal to liberals and apparently intelligent people, genuine questions to be asked about whether this election will be anything more than a choice between Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Candidates with wholly distinct views have always been described as "spoilers" in the American system, and anyone who do not subscribe to the rigidly corporatist outlook of the two major parties can only expect ridicule, opprobrium, and at best colossal neglect. To this extent, whatever America's pretensions at being a model democracy for the rest of the world, one can marvel at the ease and brilliance with which dissenters are marginalised in the US. The singularity of American democracy resides in the fact that it is, insofar as democracies are in question, at once both perversely primitive and advanced. In its totalitarian sweep over the political landscape, the one-party system, which through the fiction of two parties has swept all dissent " indeed, I should say all thought " under the rug, has shown itself utterly incapable of accommodating political views outside its fold; and precisely for this reason American democracy displays nearly all the visible signs of stability, accountability, and public engagement, retaining in its rudiments the same features it has had over the last two centuries. A New Obama after the Election? Obama's most ardent defenders have adopted the predictably disingenuous view that Candidate Obama has had to repress most of his liberal sentiments to appeal to a wide electorate, and that president Obama will be much less "centrist" in his execution of domestic and foreign policies. (The US is one country where most hawks, particularly if they are "distinguished" senior statesmen, can easily pass themselves off as "centrists", the word "hawk" being reserved for certified lunatics such as Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, or blatantly aggressive policymakers such as Paul Wolfowitz. No one would describe Colin Powell, who shares as much responsibility as anyone else for waging a criminal war on Iraq, as a hawk.) Of course much the same view was advanced apropos Bill Clinton, who then went on to wreck the labour movement, cut food stamps, initiate welfare "reform" that further eroded the entitlements of the poor, and launch aggressive military strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Kosovo, and a host of other places. Moreover, unless one is to take the view that Obama thought of his candidacy overnight, it is equally reasonable to argue that, knowing how much he would have to appeal to the rank and file of not only Democrats but the large number of "undecided" voters as a candidate who would be markedly different from both the incumbent and the Republicans running for the presidency, Obama has been projecting himself as far more liberal than either his political record or views would give warrant to believe. Indeed, as a close perusal of his writings, speeches, and voting record suggests, Obama is as consummate a politician as any in the US, and he has been priming himself as a presidential candidate for many years. Entry to the Obama World View Obama's 2006 book,The Audacity of Hope (New York, Crown Publishers), furnishes as good an entry point into his world view as any. Its subtitle, "Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream", provides the link to Obama's memoir of 1995, Dreams of My Father (1995). People everywhere have dreams, no doubt, but there is nothing quite as magisterial as "the American dream": the precise substance of the American dream " a home with a backyard, mom's apple pie, kids riding their bikes without a care in the world, a cute dog running around in circles after the kids, ice tea, a Chevrolet or SUV " matters less than the fact that "the American dream" signifies something grand and unique in the affairs of humankind. A politician who does not profess belief in the American dream is doomed, but there is no insincerity on Obama's part in this respect. Leaving aside the question of how the American dream has been a nightmare to many of the most thoughtful Americans themselves, from Henry David Thoreau to James Baldwin, not to mention tens of millions of people elsewhere, Obama's fondness for what Americans call "feelgood" language is palpably evident. Just what does the audacity of hope mean? Need one be audacious to hope? Obama's pronouncements are littered with the language of hope, change, values, dreams, all only a slight improvement on chicken soup for dummies or chocolate for the soul. The chapter entitled ‘The World Beyond Our Borders', some will object, is illustrative of Obama's engagement with substantive issues, and in this case suggestive of his grasp over foreign affairs. One of the stories that circulated widely about Bush upon his election to the presidency in 2000 was that he carried an expired passport; a variant of the story says that Bush did not at that time own a US passport. It is immaterial whether the story is apocryphal: so colossal was Bush's ignorance of the world that it is entirely plausible that he had never travelled beyond Canada and Mexico, though I am tempted to say that illegal aliens and men born to power, transgressors of borders alike, share more than we commonly imagine. Obama, by contrast, came to know of the wider world in his childhood: his white American mother was married to a Kenyan before her second marriage to an Indonesian. Obama lived in Jakarta as a young boy, and the chapter offers a discussion of the purges under Suharto that led to the extermination of close to a million communists and their sympathisers. Obama is brave enough to acknowledge that many of the Indonesian military leaders had been trained in the US, and that the Central Intelligence Agency provided "covert support" to the insurrectionists who sought to remove the nationalist Sukarno and place Indonesia squarely in the American camp (pp 272-73). He charts Indonesia's spectacular economic progress, but also concedes that "Suharto's rule was harshly repressive". The press was stifled, elections were a "mere formality", prisons were filled up with political dissidents, and in commentary november 1, 2008 EPW Economic & P 16 olitical Weekly areas wracked by secessionist movements rebels and civilians alike faced swift and merciless retribution " "and all this was done with the knowledge, if not outright approval, of US administrations" (p 276). It is doubtful that most American politicians would have made even as mild an admission of American complicity in atrocities as has Obama. But a supremely realist framework allows for evasion as much as confession: thus Obama merely arrives at the reading that the American record overseas is a "mixed" one "across the globe" , often characterised by far-sightedness and altruism even if American policies have at times been "misguided, based on false assumptions" that have undermined American credibility and the genuine aspirations of others (p 280). There is, in plain language, both good and bad in this world; and Obama avers that the US, with all its limitations, has largely been a force for good. And since America remains the standard by which phenomena are to be evaluated, Obama betrays his own parochialism. The war in Vietnam, writes Obama, bequeathed "disastrous consequences": American credibility and prestige took a dive, the armed forces experienced a loss of morale, the American soldier needlessly suffered, and above all "the bond of trust between the American people and their government" was broken. Though two million or more Vietnamese were killed, and fertile land was rendered toxic for generations, no mention is made of this genocide: always the focus is on what the war did to America (p 287). The war in Vietnam chastened Americans, who "began to realise that the best and the brightest in Washington didn't always know what they were doing " and didn't always tell the truth" (p 287). One wonders why, then, an overwhelming majority of Americans supported the Gulf war of 1991 and the attack on Afghanistan, and why even the invasion of Iraq in 2002 had far more popular support in the US than it did in Europe or elsewhere around the world. The suggestion that the American people were once led astray but are fundamentally sound in their judgment ignores the consideration that elected officials are only as good as the people to whom they respond, besides hastening to exculpate ordinary Americans from their share of the responsibility for the egregious crimes that the US has committed overseas and against some of its own people. Good Wars, Bad Wars? Obama has on more than one occasion said, "I'm not against all wars, I'm just against dumb wars." More elegant thinkers than Obama, living in perhaps more thoughtful times, have used different language to justify war: there is the Christian doctrine of a just war, and similarly 20th century politicians and theorists, watching Germany under Hitler rearm itself and set the stage for the extermination of the Jewish people, reasoned that one could make a legitimate distinction between "good" and "bad" wars. Obama has something like the latter in mind: he was an early critic of the invasion of Iraq, though here again more on pragmatic grounds rather than from any sense of moral anguish, but like most liberals he gave his whole-hearted support to the bombing of Afghanistan in the hope, to use Bush's language, that Osama bin Laden could be smoked out and the Taliban reduced to smithereens. Obama is so far committed to the idea of Afghanistan as a "good" war that he has pledged that, if elected president, he would escalate the conflict there and also bomb Pakistan if it would help him prosecute the "war on terror". He has recently attacked McCain, who no one would mistake for a pacifist, with the observation that his opponent "won't even follow [bin Laden] to his cave in Afghanistan" , even as the US defence secretary has all but conceded that a political accommodation with the Taliban, whose support of bin Laden was the very justification for the bombing of Afghanistan, can no longer be avoided. The casually held assumption that by birthright an American president can bomb other countries into abject submission, or that the US can never be stripped of its prerogative to chastise nations that fail to do its bidding, takes one's breath away. No one should suppose that Obama, blinded by the sharp rhetoric of the "war on terror" , has positions on Iraq and Afghanistan that are not characteristic of his view of the world as a whole. "We need to maintain a strategic force posture", he writes, "that allows us to manage threats posed by rogue nations like North Korea and Iran and to meet the challenges presented by potential rivals like China" (p 307). This could have been the voice of Reagan, the Clintons, Bush, McCain, and countless others: there is such overwhelming unanimity about "rogue states" that almost no politician in the US can be expected to display even an iota of independent thinking. No Change from Staus Quo On the question of Palestine, Obama has similarly displayed belligerence and moral turpitude. At the annual meeting in June 2008 of the American Israel Political Action Committee, a self-avowedly Zionist organisation that commands unstinting support from across the entire American political spectrum, Obama was unambiguous in declaring that "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel and it must remain undivided". It would only be belabouring the obvi.ous to state that, on nearly every foreign policy issue that one can think of, with the exception of a timetable for withdrawal of American troops from Iraq, Obama's position can scarcely be distinguished from all the other advocates of the national security state. There can be no gainsaying the fact that Obama's election as president of the US will appreciably alter American debates on race. African-Americans make up 12 per cent of the population but constitute nearly half of the US prison population; one of three black males will, in his lifetime, have gone through the criminal justice system. African-Americans are, alongside Puerto Ricans, two ethnic groups among whom poverty is endemic, and repeated studies have shown that in every critical sector of life, such as access to jobs, housing, and healthcare, blacks face persistent racism and discrimination. Obama is fully cognisant of these problems and is likely to address them to a greater extent than any other candidate. But one can also argue, with equal plausibility, that his ascendancy will strengthen the hands of those who want to think of American democracy as a post-race society, and whose instant inclination is to jettison affirmative action and reduce the already narrow space for discussions of race in civil society. It is immaterial, even if fascinating to some, whether numerous white people will vote for Obama to prove their credentials as non-racists, while others will give him their vote because he is not all that black " just as some black people will surely cast their ballot for Obama precisely because he is black. By far the most critical consideration is that the US requires a radical redistribution of economic and political power: Martin Luther King Jr had come to an awareness of this in the last years of his life, but there is little to suggest that Obama, a professional politician to the core, has similarly seen the light. Establishment Candidate In these deeply troubled times, when there is much casual talk of the American ship sinking, the white ruling class is preparing to turn over the keys of the kingdom to a black man. Imperial powers had a knack for doing this, but let us leave that history aside. Here, at least, Obama appears to have displayed audacity, taking on a challenge that many others might have forsworn. However, nothing is as it seems to be: with the passage of time, Obama has increasingly justified the confidence reposed in him as an establishment candidate. A man with some degree of moral conscience would not only have shrugged off the endorsements of Colin Powell and Scott McClellan, until recently among Bush's grandstanding cheerleaders and apparatchiks, but would have insisted that Powell and others of his ilk be brought to justice for crimes against the Iraqi people. But Obama will do no such thing, for after all Powell and the master he served, like Kissinger and Nixon before them, only made "tactical" errors. Obama prides himself, moreover, on being a healer not divider: he will even rejoice in the support for him among previously hardcore Republicans (www.republicansforobama.org). When Obama is not speaking about values, hope, and change, he presents himself as a manager, representing brutal American adventurism in Iraq and Afghanistan as illustrations of policies that went wrong. He comes forward as a technician who is best equipped to fix broken policies, repair the system, and get America working once again. One can only hope that an America that is once again working does not mean for a good portion of the rest of the world what it has meant for a long time, namely, an America that is more efficient in its exercise of military domination and even more successful in projecting its own vision of human affairs as the only road to the good life. To believe in Obama, one needs to hope against hope. From rama.sangye at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 08:50:47 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:50:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] US election Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811091920k67cb0194i35eb41e0838c9149@mail.gmail.com> see: http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/title/?ei=5070&emc=eta1 From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 10:05:54 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:35:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=E2=80=99s_?= =?utf-8?q?Democratic_Ideals?= Message-ID: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> An Artist in Exile Tests India’s Democratic Ideals By SOMINI SENGUPTA New York Times, November 8, 2008 DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Maqbool Fida Husain, India’s most famous painter, is afraid to go home. Mr. Husain is a Muslim who is fond of painting Hindu goddesses, sometimes portraying them nude. That obsession has earned him the ire of a small but organized cadre of Hindu nationalists. They have attacked galleries that exhibit his work, accused him in court of “promoting enmity” among faiths and, on one occasion, offered an $11 million reward for his head. In September, the country’s highest court offered him an unexpected reprieve, dismissing one of the cases against him with the blunt reminder that Hindu iconography, including ancient temples, is replete with nudity. Still, the artist, 93 and increasingly frail, is not taking any chances. For two years, he has lived here in self-imposed exile, amid opulently sterile skyscrapers. He intends to remain, at least for now. “They can put me in a jungle,” Mr. Husain said gamely. “Still, I can create.” Freedom of expression has frequently, and by some accounts, increasingly, come under fire in India, as the country tries to balance the dictates of its secular democracy with the easily inflamed religious and ethnic passions of its multitudes. The result is a strange anomaly in a nation known for its vibrant, freewheeling political culture. The government is compelled to ensure respect for India’s diversity and at the same time prevent one group from pouncing on another for a perceived offense. Ramachandra Guha, a historian, calls it “perhaps the fundamental challenge of governance in India.” The rise of an intense brand of identity politics, with India’s many communities mobilizing for political power, has intensified the problem. An accusation that a piece of art or writing is offensive is an easy way to whip up the sentiments of a particular caste, faith or tribe, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an Indian political scientist, points out. He calls it “offense mongering.” There have been isolated episodes of violence, and many more threats, often prompting the government to invoke British-era laws that allow it to ban works of art and literature. India was among the first countries to ban Salman Rushdie’s novel “The Satanic Verses.” In March, Taslima Nasreen, a Bangladeshi novelist living in exile in the Communist-controlled state of West Bengal, was forced to leave for several months after a Muslim political party objected to her work. Meanwhile, in the western state of Gujarat, controlled by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, a political psychologist, Ashis Nandy, was charged with “promoting enmity between different groups.” His offense was to write an opinion article in The Times of India criticizing the victory of the Hindu nationalists in state elections; the case is pending. “That politics has gotten out of hand,” Mr. Mehta, the political scientist, argued. “It puts liberal democracy at risk. If we want social stability we need a consensus on what our freedoms are.” Even threats of violence from offended parties are a powerful deterrent. In Mumbai, formerly Bombay, where Mr. Husain lived for most of his life, a recent exhibition on Indian masters did not include his work. Nor did India’s first modern art fair, held in New Delhi in August. The same week in the same city, a small show featuring reproductions of Mr. Husain’s work was vandalized. Of Mr. Husain’s exceptionally large body of work — at least 20,000 pieces, he guesses — there are three that have angered his foes. Two are highly stylized pencil drawings of Durga, the mother goddess, and Saraswati, the goddess of the arts, both faceless and nude. The third is a map of India rendered as a female nude, her head in the Himalayas, a breast jutting out into the Arabian Sea. Mr. Husain insists that nudity symbolizes purity. He has repeatedly said that he had not meant to offend any faith. But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the artist, a symbol of nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his fellow Muslims. Harsh Goenka, a Mumbai-based industrialist and one of the country’s most important collectors, has a similar Husain nude, an oil painting of the goddess Saraswati. As “an average normal Hindu,” he says he is appalled that Mr. Husain is not safe in his country. “Keeping him away is, in a way, showing the weakness of the system, that we cannot protect the rights of the citizen,” Mr. Goenka said. “If he has done a crime, punish him. If he hasn’t, let him live here with dignity and peace of mind.” Mr. Husain calls the current Congress Party-led government too weak-kneed to offer him protection from those who might harm him. Mostly, though, he cautions against making too much of his case. India, he insists, is fundamentally “tolerant.” Not least, he said, he has always been a vagabond, sleeping on the Mumbai streets during his impoverished youth, wandering through Europe to study Rembrandt, or bouncing, as he does now, among several lavish apartments and villas here in Dubai — or rather, cruising among them, in one of his five costly thrill machines, including a lipstick-red Ferrari, his current favorite. Mr. Husain is India’s best-paid artist. Last March, at a Christie’s auction, his “Battle of Ganga and Jamuna,” part of a 27-canvas series on the Mahabharata, the Hindu epic, fetched $1.6 million. “I am working, it’s O.K.,” he said. “If things get all right, I’ll go. If they don’t, so be it. What can I do?” And then he quoted the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a Pakistani who went into exile in the late 1970s during President Muhammad Zia ul-Haq’s regime and who wrote about missing the animosity of his enemies as much as the affection of friends. “Of course,” he conceded, “the heart is there.” On the morning of Id al-Fitr, Islam’s holiest day, Mr. Husain sat in the back seat of his Bentley as it whizzed past a row of construction sites, taking calls from Mumbai on his new iPhone. Back home on the same day, his granddaughter Rakshanda was getting engaged. It was the first major family function he had missed since his exile. “Such an auspicious day,” he murmured. “Anyway, we will have a ceremony here again.” In Mumbai, it had been his custom to host an annual Id al-Fitr breakfast for his community, a Shiite subsect that calls itself Suleimanis. This morning, he hosted one here, too, at a community hall with steaming plates of mutton and flatbread. A stream of people came to pay their respects, taking his gnarled right hand, placing it above their eyes, one after the other, then to their lips. Mr. Husain, a master of flamboyance, stood beaming in a green silk jacket embroidered with motifs from his paintings, including several voluptuous, scantily clad women. He is now working on two ambitious series: one on Indian civilization, to be mounted in London, the second on Arab civilization, which will be exhibited in Qatar. Here in Dubai, he is at work on a whimsical installation titled “Form Meets Function,” which will incorporate his five luxury cars, including a sound piece he intends to create using their engines. At sundown, he climbed into the passenger seat of the Ferrari, pounded the dashboard and instructed his driver to hit the gas pedal. The engine revved, and he squealed in delight. He said he had stopped driving several years ago, after cataract surgery. He does not have a studio in Dubai. There are easels in each of the homes he has bought for his extended clan. He spends a night here, a night there. One of them is an 11th-floor apartment with spectacular, south-facing views of jagged skyscrapers under construction. It is filled with dozens of small canvases from the 1950s that he had given to a Czech woman he had once intended to marry, though she turned him down. She found him recently and returned his paintings. “They belong to India,” she told him. This afternoon, recalling the story, Mr. Husain said he would eventually have to take them home. “Temporarily,” he mused, “they are here.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/world/asia/09india.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 10:28:16 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:28:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. The freedom of others to express their thoughts. How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , Aditya , roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing but figment of his own imagination. If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , Shivam and Arti have to be. Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. Pawan On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear All, > > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, and > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. Unfortunately it > is not without precedent. > > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with detailed > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', habitually > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their desires to > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > university. > > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this list, > and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated with > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of insinuations > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj Kaul) > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or the > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' and > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when the > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's propoganda > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are being > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their local > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign hand' > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian politicians > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is the > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on to > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani keeps, > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in Kashmir' > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for their > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that these > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be doing > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden to. > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has been > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called > 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > either. > > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we are > writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to take > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank accounts > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think that > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at such > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who > writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is paid by > the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No payments > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing either. > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the > Reader List either. > > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the Sarai > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my professional > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially as > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to ignore > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown in > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then we > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think deserves > to be ignored or overlooked. > > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote with > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, so > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow each > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized for > reasons of emphasis (mine). > > > -------------------------- > > 1. > > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY , > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are > being followed more closely. > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > soon..." > > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by a > foreign country' > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > ascertained' > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how he > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or stand > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character and > reputation of people in a public forum. > > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count as > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > > 2. > > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB > FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List on any > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to know > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List is a > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate this, > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I do, or > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. In > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > > > 3. > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > Kashmir > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, UNLIKE > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support their > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from reading > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again because > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked immediately > before this still hold. > > > 4. > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > Kashmir > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also IT > IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the way he > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > > 5. > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > Kashmir > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we > would continue to counter their agenda..." > > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a list of > my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here that I > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > > > 6. > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' > status > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I mean." > > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does "Chinese > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for > Chinese cuisine? > > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is referring to > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically those > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the government > of the Peoples Republic of China. > > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he would > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics of > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government of > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on record > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government of > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > > > 7. > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' > status > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > TONE..." > > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation that > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the > behest of their masters. > > > ----------------- > > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > > MY COMMENT: None > > __________________________ > > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the date > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof for > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and scurrilous > postings aimed at me and others on this list. > > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, if > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the list > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with immediate > effect. > > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in favour of > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a half) > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in serious > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their rubbish > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on grounds > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit of > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger need a > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul > and their allies. > > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they can > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or conjecture. > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments and > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal lives > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread poison > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have to > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a foreign > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I am > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests that I > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement about > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to settle > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation proves > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the grounds > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a person or > persons with the freedom of expression. > > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. > > > regards > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 10:51:01 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:51:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811092121r21ad1265u3670588dcfe98020@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off? Please include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date and time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring to their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used strong language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support right-wing Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According to you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I write, as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has recourse to *facts* in this case. This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence that, unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against people, I am far more circumspect about what I write. So please, tell me where I have said this about you. regards Aarti On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear All, > > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. The > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , Aditya > , > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing but > figment of his own imagination. > > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , Shivam > and Arti have to be. > > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > Pawan > > > > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, > and > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. Unfortunately > it > > is not without precedent. > > > > > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > detailed > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > habitually > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their desires > to > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon > allies > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > > university. > > > > > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this list, > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated > with > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > > > > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of insinuations > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj > Kaul) > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or the > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' > and > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account > for > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > 'writers' > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when > the > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > propoganda > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > > > > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are being > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their local > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign hand' > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > politicians > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is > the > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with reality > and > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but > fails > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > > > > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on to > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani keeps, > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in Kashmir' > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for > their > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that these > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be > doing > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden > to. > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > > > > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has > been > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called > > 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > > > > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > > either. > > > > > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we > are > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to > take > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank accounts > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think > that > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at > such > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack > who > > writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings > from > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is paid > by > > the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > payments > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > either. > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the > > Reader List either. > > > > > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the > Sarai > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > professional > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially as > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to > ignore > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown in > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then we > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think > deserves > > to be ignored or overlooked. > > > > > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote with > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, so > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow > each > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized > for > > reasons of emphasis (mine). > > > > > > -------------------------- > > > > 1. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY > , > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are > > being followed more closely. > > > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > > soon..." > > > > > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > > > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by a > > foreign country' > > > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > > ascertained' > > > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > > > > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how he > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or stand > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character > and > > reputation of people in a public forum. > > > > > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count as > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > > > > > 2. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB > > FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > > > > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List on > any > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to > know > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List > is a > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate > this, > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I do, > or > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. In > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this > charge, > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, > or > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > > > > > > 3. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > > Kashmir > > > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > UNLIKE > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support > their > > > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > > > > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > reading > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again because > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > immediately > > before this still hold. > > > > > > 4. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > > Kashmir > > > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also > IT > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > > > > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the way > he > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > > Kashmir > > > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we > > would continue to counter their agenda..." > > > > > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a list > of > > my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here that > I > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > > > > > > 6. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' > > status > > > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I > mean." > > > > > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > "Chinese > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for > > Chinese cuisine? > > > > > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is referring > to > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically > those > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > government > > of the Peoples Republic of China. > > > > > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he would > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics of > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government of > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on > record > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government of > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > > > > > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > > > > > > 7. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' > > status > > > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > > > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > > TONE..." > > > > > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation that > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the > > behest of their masters. > > > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > > > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > > > > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > > > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > > > > > MY COMMENT: None > > > > __________________________ > > > > > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the > date > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof for > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and scurrilous > > postings aimed at me and others on this list. > > > > > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, if > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the list > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with immediate > > effect. > > > > > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in favour > of > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a > half) > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > serious > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their rubbish > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on > grounds > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit > of > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I > do > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger need > a > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj > Kaul > > and their allies. > > > > > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they > can > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or conjecture. > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments > and > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal > lives > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread > poison > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have > to > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > > > > > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a foreign > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I am > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests > that I > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement > about > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to > settle > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation proves > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' > in > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > > > > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the > grounds > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a person > or > > persons with the freedom of expression. > > > > > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 10:53:33 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:53:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are gone. I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. Kirdar On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear All, > > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. The > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , Aditya , > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing but > figment of his own imagination. > > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , Shivam > and Arti have to be. > > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > Pawan > > > > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, and >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. Unfortunately it >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with detailed >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', habitually >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their desires to >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> university. >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this list, >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated with >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of insinuations >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or the >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' and >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when the >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's propoganda >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are being >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their local >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign hand' >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian politicians >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is the >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on to >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani keeps, >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in Kashmir' >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for their >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that these >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be doing >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden to. >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has been >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> either. >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we are >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to take >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank accounts >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think that >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at such >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is paid by >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No payments >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing either. >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the >> Reader List either. >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the Sarai >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my professional >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially as >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to ignore >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown in >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then we >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think deserves >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote with >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, so >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow each >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized for >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> 1. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY , >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> soon..." >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by a >> foreign country' >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> ascertained' >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how he >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or stand >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character and >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count as >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List on any >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to know >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List is a >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate this, >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I do, or >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. In >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from >> Kashmir >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, UNLIKE >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support their >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from reading >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again because >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked immediately >> before this still hold. >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from >> Kashmir >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also IT >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the way he >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from >> Kashmir >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a list of >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here that I >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' >> status >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I mean." >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does "Chinese >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is referring to >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically those >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the government >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he would >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics of >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government of >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on record >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the government of >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' >> status >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> TONE..." >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation that >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the date >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof for >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and scurrilous >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, if >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the list >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with immediate >> effect. >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in favour of >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a half) >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in serious >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their rubbish >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on grounds >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit of >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger need a >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul >> and their allies. >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they can >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or conjecture. >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments and >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal lives >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread poison >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have to >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a foreign >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I am >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests that I >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement about >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to settle >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation proves >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the grounds >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a person or >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. >> >> >> regards >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 11:20:23 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:20:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] To the Ku Klux Klan, India Unit. Message-ID: <98f331e00811092150n29963334tb23082d2af0e6622@mail.gmail.com> Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, With lots of pain I demand your removal from the list. I am not someone who demands ban, exit or exile and I support everyone's right to express his/her opinons here, there, everywhere. But I cannot tolerate any abuse, voilence or intimidation of any kind. You have expressed yourself on Kashmir, Hindutwa, Reservation, Nation, Islam etc. in every manner- ill or well. I sincerly feel that any debate or discussion is not possible with fascists and members of Ku Klux Klan. I request the moderator to ban you for atleast three months. Since I place this demand, I will not respond to your posts on the list till February 10, 2009. Please introspect and try to be a democratic being. Prakash From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 12:10:35 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:10:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kirdar, I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come from . 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he considers himself one. 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on Geelani and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write that the credentials of certain people on the list are being investigated.What makes the two different ? 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in all countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and non except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this list as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate ..... Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see himself as a surrogate with active participation..... 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , Panun Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong with that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. However i have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member as we believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. But i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of these. These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all odds. Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits world across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle the voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a supporter of that ? I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is to scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has undergone Exodus and genocide. I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I myself run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and what not to word. If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge a moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and others be removed. I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so they do know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. Regards Pawan Durani jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > Dear Pawan > You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign > powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such > an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think > this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that > day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are > gone. > > I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe > your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > > Kirdar > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. > The > > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > > > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , > Aditya , > > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > > > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing > but > > figment of his own imagination. > > > > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , Shivam > > and Arti have to be. > > > > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > >> > >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, > and > >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > Unfortunately it > >> is not without precedent. > >> > >> > >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > detailed > >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > habitually > >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their desires > to > >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon > allies > >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > >> university. > >> > >> > >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this > list, > >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated > with > >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > >> > >> > >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > insinuations > >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj > Kaul) > >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or the > >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so > >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' > and > >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical > >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position > >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account > for > >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being > >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > 'writers' > >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, > >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when > the > >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > propoganda > >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > >> > >> > >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are > being > >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their local > >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign > hand' > >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > politicians > >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is > the > >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with reality > and > >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but > fails > >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > >> > >> > >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on to > >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > keeps, > >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in Kashmir' > >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for > their > >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that these > >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be > doing > >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden > to. > >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to > the > >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own > >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't > agree > >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > >> > >> > >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has > been > >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of > >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific > >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called > >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > >> > >> > >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > >> either. > >> > >> > >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we > are > >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is > >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to > take > >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > accounts > >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think > that > >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at > such > >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack > who > >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings > from > >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is > paid by > >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > payments > >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > either. > >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the > >> Reader List either. > >> > >> > >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the > Sarai > >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > professional > >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially as > >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to > ignore > >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown > in > >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then > we > >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think > deserves > >> to be ignored or overlooked. > >> > >> > >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote with > >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, > so > >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow > each > >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized > for > >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > >> > >> > >> -------------------------- > >> > >> 1. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> > >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> > >> > >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY > , > >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case > are > >> being followed more closely. > >> > >> > >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > >> > >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > >> soon..." > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > >> > >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by > a > >> foreign country' > >> > >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > >> ascertained' > >> > >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > >> > >> > >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how > he > >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or stand > >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character > and > >> reputation of people in a public forum. > >> > >> > >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count > as > >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > >> > >> > >> 2. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> > >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> > >> > >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB > >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List on > any > >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to > know > >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List > is a > >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate > this, > >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I do, > or > >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. > In > >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this > charge, > >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, > or > >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > >> > >> > >> 3. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > >> Kashmir > >> > >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> > >> > >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > UNLIKE > >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support > their > >> > >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > reading > >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again because > >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > immediately > >> before this still hold. > >> > >> > >> 4. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > >> Kashmir > >> > >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> > >> > >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also > IT > >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the way > he > >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > >> > >> > >> 5. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from > >> Kashmir > >> > >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> > >> > >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we > >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a list > of > >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here > that I > >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this > >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be > >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > >> > >> > >> 6. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' > >> status > >> > >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> > >> > >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I > mean." > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > "Chinese > >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang > >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for > >> Chinese cuisine? > >> > >> > >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is referring > to > >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically > those > >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > government > >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > >> > >> > >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he would > >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics > of > >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government > of > >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on > record > >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the government of > >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of > >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > >> > >> > >> 7. > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' > >> status > >> > >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > >> > >> > >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> > >> > >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > >> TONE..." > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation that > >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the > >> behest of their masters. > >> > >> > >> ----------------- > >> > >> > >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > >> > >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > >> > >> > >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> > >> > >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > >> > >> > >> MY COMMENT: None > >> > >> __________________________ > >> > >> > >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the > date > >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof for > >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and scurrilous > >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > >> > >> > >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, if > >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and > >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the list > >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > immediate > >> effect. > >> > >> > >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in favour > of > >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a > half) > >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > serious > >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their rubbish > >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on > grounds > >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit > of > >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I > do > >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger need > a > >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj > Kaul > >> and their allies. > >> > >> > >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they > can > >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or conjecture. > >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments > and > >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal > lives > >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread > poison > >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have > to > >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > >> > >> > >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > foreign > >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I > am > >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests > that I > >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement > about > >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to > settle > >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation > proves > >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The > >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' > in > >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > >> > >> > >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and > >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the > grounds > >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the > >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a person > or > >> persons with the freedom of expression. > >> > >> > >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. > >> > >> > >> regards > >> > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 12:35:17 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:35:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy about the plight of KPs. You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock is ticking. Kirdar On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Kirdar, > > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come from . > > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he > considers himself one. > > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on Geelani > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write that > the credentials of certain people on the list are being investigated.What > makes the two different ? > > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in all > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and non > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this list > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate ..... > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see himself > as a surrogate with active participation..... > > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , Panun > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong with > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. However i > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member as we > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. But > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of these. > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all odds. > > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits world > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle the > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a > supporter of that ? > > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is to > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has undergone > Exodus and genocide. > > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I myself > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and what > not to word. > > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge a > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and > others be removed. > > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so they do > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> gone. >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> Kirdar >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear All, >> > >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. >> > The >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> > >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> > Aditya , >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> > >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing >> > but >> > figment of his own imagination. >> > >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> > Shivam >> > and Arti have to be. >> > >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, >> >> and >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> >> detailed >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> habitually >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> desires to >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon >> >> allies >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> >> list, >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated >> >> with >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> insinuations >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >> >> Kaul) >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >> >> the >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' >> >> and >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account >> >> for >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> >> 'writers' >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when >> >> the >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> propoganda >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> >> being >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> >> local >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >> >> hand' >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> politicians >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is >> >> the >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> reality and >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >> >> fails >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on >> >> to >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> >> keeps, >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> Kashmir' >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for >> >> their >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> >> these >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >> >> doing >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden >> >> to. >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to >> >> the >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >> >> agree >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has >> >> been >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we >> >> are >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to >> >> take >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> accounts >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think >> >> that >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at >> >> such >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack >> >> who >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings >> >> from >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> >> paid by >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> payments >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> >> either. >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the >> >> Sarai >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> professional >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially >> >> as >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to >> >> ignore >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown >> >> in >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then >> >> we >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >> >> deserves >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> >> with >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, >> >> so >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow >> >> each >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized >> >> for >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case >> >> are >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by >> >> a >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how >> >> he >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> >> stand >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character >> >> and >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count >> >> as >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> >> JOB >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List >> >> on any >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to >> >> know >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List >> >> is a >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate >> >> this, >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >> >> do, or >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. >> >> In >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >> >> charge, >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, >> >> or >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> from >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> >> UNLIKE >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support >> >> their >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> >> reading >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> because >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> immediately >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> from >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> >> also IT >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> >> way he >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> from >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> >> list of >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here >> >> that I >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> persons' >> >> status >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> "Chinese >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> >> referring to >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically >> >> those >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> government >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> >> would >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics >> >> of >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government >> >> of >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >> >> record >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the government >> >> of >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> persons' >> >> status >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> >> that >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the >> >> date >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >> >> for >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> scurrilous >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, >> >> if >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the >> >> list >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> immediate >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> favour of >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >> >> half) >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> >> serious >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> rubbish >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >> >> grounds >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit >> >> of >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when >> >> I do >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >> >> need a >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj >> >> Kaul >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they >> >> can >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> conjecture. >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments >> >> and >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal >> >> lives >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >> >> poison >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have >> >> to >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> foreign >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I >> >> am >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests >> >> that I >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement >> >> about >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >> >> settle >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> >> proves >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' >> >> in >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >> >> grounds >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> person or >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 13:26:04 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:26:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> Kirdar, What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this group. Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have one. Pawan On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > Dear Pawan > If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > > No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy > about the plight of KPs. > > You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > is ticking. > > Kirdar > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear Kirdar, > > > > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come > from . > > > > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of > > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he > > considers himself one. > > > > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on Geelani > > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write that > > the credentials of certain people on the list are being investigated.What > > makes the two different ? > > > > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain > > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in > all > > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co > > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and non > > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > > > > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just > > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this > list > > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate ..... > > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > himself > > as a surrogate with active participation..... > > > > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , > Panun > > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong > with > > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > However i > > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the > > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member as > we > > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. > But > > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of > these. > > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all odds. > > > > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits > world > > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle > the > > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > > > > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese > > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it > > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a > > supporter of that ? > > > > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is to > > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > undergone > > Exodus and genocide. > > > > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > myself > > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and what > > not to word. > > > > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge a > > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and > > others be removed. > > > > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so they > do > > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > > > > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> > >> Dear Pawan > >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign > >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such > >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think > >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that > >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are > >> gone. > >> > >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe > >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > >> > >> Kirdar > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > exposed. > >> > The > >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > >> > > >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , > >> > Aditya , > >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > >> > > >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing > >> > but > >> > figment of his own imagination. > >> > > >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , > >> > Shivam > >> > and Arti have to be. > >> > > >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear All, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our > list, > >> >> and > >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > >> >> Unfortunately it > >> >> is not without precedent. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > >> >> detailed > >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > >> >> habitually > >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > >> >> desires to > >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon > >> >> allies > >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > >> >> university. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this > >> >> list, > >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > associated > >> >> with > >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > >> >> insinuations > >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj > >> >> Kaul) > >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or > >> >> the > >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing > so > >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > masters' > >> >> and > >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical > >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position > >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > account > >> >> for > >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being > >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > >> >> 'writers' > >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid > agent, > >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made > when > >> >> the > >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > >> >> propoganda > >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are > >> >> being > >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their > >> >> local > >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign > >> >> hand' > >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > >> >> politicians > >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It > is > >> >> the > >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > >> >> reality and > >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but > >> >> fails > >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on > >> >> to > >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > >> >> keeps, > >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > >> >> Kashmir' > >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write > for > >> >> their > >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that > >> >> these > >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be > >> >> doing > >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > beholden > >> >> to. > >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to > >> >> the > >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their > own > >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't > >> >> agree > >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has > >> >> been > >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused > of > >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific > >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called > >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > >> >> either. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what > we > >> >> are > >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is > >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to > >> >> take > >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > >> >> accounts > >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should > think > >> >> that > >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase > at > >> >> such > >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired > hack > >> >> who > >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings > >> >> from > >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is > >> >> paid by > >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > >> >> payments > >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > >> >> either. > >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on > the > >> >> Reader List either. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the > >> >> Sarai > >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > >> >> professional > >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially > >> >> as > >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to > >> >> ignore > >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > thrown > >> >> in > >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, > then > >> >> we > >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think > >> >> deserves > >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote > >> >> with > >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > taken, > >> >> so > >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > follow > >> >> each > >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > capitalized > >> >> for > >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> 1. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> > >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > >> >> COUNTRY , > >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case > >> >> are > >> >> being followed more closely. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their > links > >> >> > >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > >> >> soon..." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > >> >> > >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed > by > >> >> a > >> >> foreign country' > >> >> > >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > >> >> ascertained' > >> >> > >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of > how > >> >> he > >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or > >> >> stand > >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > character > >> >> and > >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > count > >> >> as > >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 2. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> > >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME > >> >> JOB > >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List > >> >> on any > >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to > >> >> know > >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader > List > >> >> is a > >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > substantiate > >> >> this, > >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I > >> >> do, or > >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for > this. > >> >> In > >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this > >> >> charge, > >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this > list, > >> >> or > >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 3. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > >> >> from > >> >> Kashmir > >> >> > >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > >> >> UNLIKE > >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > support > >> >> their > >> >> > >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > >> >> reading > >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > >> >> because > >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > >> >> immediately > >> >> before this still hold. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 4. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > >> >> from > >> >> Kashmir > >> >> > >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and > >> >> also IT > >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the > >> >> way he > >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 5. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > >> >> from > >> >> Kashmir > >> >> > >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and > we > >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a > >> >> list of > >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here > >> >> that I > >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have > this > >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should > be > >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 6. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> persons' > >> >> status > >> >> > >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I > >> >> mean." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > >> >> "Chinese > >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > Kuomintang > >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference > for > >> >> Chinese cuisine? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > >> >> referring to > >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically > >> >> those > >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > >> >> government > >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > >> >> would > >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > critics > >> >> of > >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > government > >> >> of > >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on > >> >> record > >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the government > >> >> of > >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government > of > >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 7. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> persons' > >> >> status > >> >> > >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > >> >> TONE..." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation > >> >> that > >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at > the > >> >> behest of their masters. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----------------- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > >> >> > >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> MY COMMENT: None > >> >> > >> >> __________________________ > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from > the > >> >> date > >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof > >> >> for > >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > >> >> scurrilous > >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, > >> >> if > >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and > >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the > >> >> list > >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > >> >> immediate > >> >> effect. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > >> >> favour of > >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a > >> >> half) > >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > >> >> serious > >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > >> >> rubbish > >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on > >> >> grounds > >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > benefit > >> >> of > >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially > when > >> >> I do > >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger > >> >> need a > >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya > Raj > >> >> Kaul > >> >> and their allies. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that > they > >> >> can > >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > >> >> conjecture. > >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > arguments > >> >> and > >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal > >> >> lives > >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread > >> >> poison > >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There > have > >> >> to > >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > >> >> foreign > >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or > I > >> >> am > >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests > >> >> that I > >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement > >> >> about > >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to > >> >> settle > >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation > >> >> proves > >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. > The > >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign > power' > >> >> in > >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel > and > >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the > >> >> grounds > >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and > the > >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a > >> >> person or > >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > conceal. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> regards > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Shuddha > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 13:47:27 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:47:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811100017s37155217u3583b23df77a1974@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, Your obfuscation is not going to work this time. Stick to the point. You have explicitly said that certain people on this list, including Shudda, get payment from other sources for their writing on this list. You have been quoted saying these things. Now prove it. If you cannot prove it, then you are guilty of defamation. It is as simple as that. This is not a question of ideaology or politics. It is a question of hard cash. Prove it, or leave. regards Aarti On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Kirdar, > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > group. > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have > one. > > Pawan > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan > > If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > > again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > > on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > > Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > > sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > > hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > > > > No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > > about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > > but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > > about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > > Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > > are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > > your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > > trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy > > about the plight of KPs. > > > > You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > > so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > > is ticking. > > > > Kirdar > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Dear Kirdar, > > > > > > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come > > from . > > > > > > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of > > > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he > > > considers himself one. > > > > > > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on > Geelani > > > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write > that > > > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > investigated.What > > > makes the two different ? > > > > > > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain > > > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in > > all > > > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co > > > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and > non > > > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > > > > > > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just > > > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > > > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this > > list > > > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate > ..... > > > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > > himself > > > as a surrogate with active participation..... > > > > > > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , > > Panun > > > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong > > with > > > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > > However i > > > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the > > > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member > as > > we > > > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > advise. > > But > > > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of > > these. > > > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all > odds. > > > > > > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > > > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits > > world > > > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle > > the > > > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > > > > > > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > Chinese > > > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does > it > > > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a > > > supporter of that ? > > > > > > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is > to > > > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > > undergone > > > Exodus and genocide. > > > > > > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > > myself > > > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and > what > > > not to word. > > > > > > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge > a > > > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and > > > others be removed. > > > > > > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so > they > > do > > > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > > > > > > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Pawan > > >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > > >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign > > >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such > > >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think > > >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that > > >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are > > >> gone. > > >> > > >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > > >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > > >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > > >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > > >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe > > >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > > >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > > >> > > >> Kirdar > > >> > > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > Dear All, > > >> > > > >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > > exposed. > > >> > The > > >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > >> > > > >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , > > >> > Aditya , > > >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > >> > > > >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are > nothing > > >> > but > > >> > figment of his own imagination. > > >> > > > >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , > > >> > Shivam > > >> > and Arti have to be. > > >> > > > >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > >> > > > >> > Pawan > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Dear All, > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our > > list, > > >> >> and > > >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > > >> >> Unfortunately it > > >> >> is not without precedent. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' > and > > >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > > >> >> detailed > > >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > > >> >> habitually > > >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > > >> >> desires to > > >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena > goon > > >> >> allies > > >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > > >> >> university. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this > > >> >> list, > > >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > > associated > > >> >> with > > >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > > >> >> insinuations > > >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya > Raj > > >> >> Kaul) > > >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel > or > > >> >> the > > >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be > doing > > so > > >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > > masters' > > >> >> and > > >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > ethical > > >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > > >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > position > > >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > > account > > >> >> for > > >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of > being > > >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > > >> >> 'writers' > > >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid > > agent, > > >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made > > when > > >> >> the > > >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > > >> >> propoganda > > >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are > > >> >> being > > >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their > > >> >> local > > >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign > > >> >> hand' > > >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > > >> >> politicians > > >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It > > is > > >> >> the > > >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > > >> >> reality and > > >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide > but > > >> >> fails > > >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar > on > > >> >> to > > >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > > >> >> keeps, > > >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > > >> >> Kashmir' > > >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write > > for > > >> >> their > > >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that > > >> >> these > > >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to > be > > >> >> doing > > >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > > beholden > > >> >> to. > > >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting > to > > >> >> the > > >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their > > own > > >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't > > >> >> agree > > >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions > when > > >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard > line > > >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti > has > > >> >> been > > >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > accused > > of > > >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > specific > > >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been > called > > >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take > this > > >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > casually > > >> >> either. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing > what > > we > > >> >> are > > >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' > is > > >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing > to > > >> >> take > > >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > > >> >> accounts > > >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should > > think > > >> >> that > > >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase > > at > > >> >> such > > >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired > > hack > > >> >> who > > >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and > leavings > > >> >> from > > >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one > is > > >> >> paid by > > >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > > >> >> payments > > >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > > >> >> either. > > >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on > > the > > >> >> Reader List either. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to > the > > >> >> Sarai > > >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > > >> >> professional > > >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > especially > > >> >> as > > >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing > to > > >> >> ignore > > >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > > thrown > > >> >> in > > >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, > > then > > >> >> we > > >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think > > >> >> deserves > > >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote > > >> >> with > > >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > > taken, > > >> >> so > > >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > > follow > > >> >> each > > >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > > capitalized > > >> >> for > > >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> -------------------------- > > >> >> > > >> >> 1. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> >> > > >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > > >> >> COUNTRY , > > >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > > >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment > case > > >> >> are > > >> >> being followed more closely. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their > > links > > >> >> > > >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > > >> >> soon..." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > > >> >> > > >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > > >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort > backed > > by > > >> >> a > > >> >> foreign country' > > >> >> > > >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > > >> >> ascertained' > > >> >> > > >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of > > how > > >> >> he > > >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or > > >> >> stand > > >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > > character > > >> >> and > > >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to > know > > >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > > count > > >> >> as > > >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> 2. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> >> > > >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL > TIME > > >> >> JOB > > >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > neither > > >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader > List > > >> >> on any > > >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want > to > > >> >> know > > >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader > > List > > >> >> is a > > >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > > substantiate > > >> >> this, > > >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what > I > > >> >> do, or > > >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for > > this. > > >> >> In > > >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate > this > > >> >> charge, > > >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this > > list, > > >> >> or > > >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> 3. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > > >> >> from > > >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> > > >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > > >> >> UNLIKE > > >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > > support > > >> >> their > > >> >> > > >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > > >> >> reading > > >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > > >> >> because > > >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > > >> >> immediately > > >> >> before this still hold. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> 4. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > > >> >> from > > >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> > > >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and > > >> >> also IT > > >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in > the > > >> >> way he > > >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> 5. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > > >> >> from > > >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> > > >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and > > we > > >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > > >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a > > >> >> list of > > >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making > here > > >> >> that I > > >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have > > this > > >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should > > be > > >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> 6. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > > >> >> persons' > > >> >> status > > >> >> > > >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what > I > > >> >> mean." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree > with > > >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > > >> >> "Chinese > > >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > > Kuomintang > > >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference > > for > > >> >> Chinese cuisine? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > > >> >> referring to > > >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > specifically > > >> >> those > > >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > > >> >> government > > >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > > >> >> would > > >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > > critics > > >> >> of > > >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > > government > > >> >> of > > >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on > > >> >> record > > >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > government > > >> >> of > > >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > Government > > of > > >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > baseless. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> 7. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > > >> >> persons' > > >> >> status > > >> >> > > >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > MASTERS > > >> >> TONE..." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation > > >> >> that > > >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at > > the > > >> >> behest of their masters. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> ----------------- > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > > >> >> > > >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> MY COMMENT: None > > >> >> > > >> >> __________________________ > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from > > the > > >> >> date > > >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable > proof > > >> >> for > > >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > > >> >> scurrilous > > >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. > Or, > > >> >> if > > >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > and > > >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the > > >> >> list > > >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > > >> >> immediate > > >> >> effect. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > > >> >> favour of > > >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and > a > > >> >> half) > > >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > > >> >> serious > > >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > > >> >> rubbish > > >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion > on > > >> >> grounds > > >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > > benefit > > >> >> of > > >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially > > when > > >> >> I do > > >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger > > >> >> need a > > >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya > > Raj > > >> >> Kaul > > >> >> and their allies. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that > > they > > >> >> can > > >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > > >> >> conjecture. > > >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > > arguments > > >> >> and > > >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > personal > > >> >> lives > > >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, > spread > > >> >> poison > > >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There > > have > > >> >> to > > >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > > >> >> foreign > > >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, > or > > I > > >> >> am > > >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > suggests > > >> >> that I > > >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > statement > > >> >> about > > >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to > > >> >> settle > > >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation > > >> >> proves > > >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. > > The > > >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > > >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign > > power' > > >> >> in > > >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > > >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel > > and > > >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > the > > >> >> grounds > > >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and > > the > > >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a > > >> >> person or > > >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > > conceal. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> regards > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Shuddha > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pranesh at cis-india.org Mon Nov 10 13:50:39 2008 From: pranesh at cis-india.org (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:50:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] He who steals my artwork steals . . . what, exactly? Message-ID: <4785f1e20811100020o546a6041ra0f4b988c92d08c8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Something that I've always found interesting is how making an exact (non-digital) copy of a work of art is extremely difficult (_you_ try painting like Monet!), but that is the kind of effort that is least valued by law and is most likely to be a case of copyright infringement. Cheers, Pranesh --- Link: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2008/10/29_artwork.shtml Berkeleyan [image: Appropriated artworks]Artistic appropriation of the works of others is nothing terribly new, though the advent of digital media has made the practice more ubiquitous as well as technically easier to accomplish. Earlier examples include Marcel Duchamps' goateed-and-mustachioed Mona Lisa parody, *L.H.O.O.Q.*, from 1919 (left), and Andy Warhol's iconic *Campbell's Soup Cans* (1962). He who steals my artwork steals . . . what, exactly? One side in this debate claims that appropriating visual imagery in the digital age is a legitimate artistic enterprise; the other insists it's the illegal use of another's intellectual property. It's one question among many to be considered at a campus conference next week By Carol Ness, Public Affairs | 29 October 2008 BERKELEY — In 1979, an artist named Sherrie Levine took some photos of Depression-era Alabama sharecroppers — not by lugging her camera gear to an Old Sharecroppers' Home on visiting day, but by photographing existing photographs. And not just any photos: these were well-known images captured by Walker Evans, the much-lauded chronicler (along with writer James Agee) of poverty and hopelessness in mid-1930s rural Alabama. Levine had located the photos in an exhibition catalog. [image: Walker Evans photo]Above is a photo of a photo of a photo: Michael Mandiberg's "authentic" copy of Sherrie Levine's 1979 photo of Walker Evans' 1936 portrait of Allie Mae Burroughs, an Alabama sharecropper. Levine's bold appropriation of Walker's world-famous images, familiar to generations since their publication in 1941's *Let Us Now Praise Famous Men*, became "a landmark of postmodernism, both praised and attacked as a feminist hijacking of patriarchal authority, a critique of the commodification of art, and an elegy on the death of modernism," according to materials about Levine's series published on the website of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, which now owns the work. Comes now the digital age and New York artist Michael Mandiberg, who has photographed Levine's photographic copies of Walker's catalog images and posted the results online at AfterSherrieLevine.comfor anyone to download and print. Mandiberg also provides a downloadable "certificate of authenticity" specifying that images printed and framed according to precise directions are genuine Mandiberg works. By these means, Mandiberg writes, "I have taken a strong step towards creating an art object that has cultural value, but little or no economic value." His bold appropriation, he says, is intended to facilitate the dissemination of these images "as a comment on how we come to know information in this burgeoning digital age." Digitization, which enables both the exact replication of artworks, famous and otherwise, and their worldwide dissemination, has added new layers of complexity to legal, artistic, and ethical discussions around the issue of artistic appropriation. To discuss those issues, more than a dozen artists (including Mandiberg), curators, legal experts, art historians, and digital-media activists will speak at a two-day campus conference next week that's all about traversing this cutting-edge terrain. "Takeovers & Makeovers: Artistic Appropriation, Fair Use, and Copyright in the Digital Age" will take place Friday and Saturday, Nov. 7 and 8, in the Berkeley Art Museum auditorium. It is free and open to the public. (The conference schedule is online .) Conference co-organizer Kris Paulsen, a Ph.D. candidate in rhetoric, isn't prepared to declare that Mandiberg's artistic appropriation was fully legal. "That's up for debate," she says, noting that her desire "isn't to point out what should be legal or not, but to discuss the problems in commenting on the culture" that are raised in the digital age. As the Mandiberg project demonstrates, digital media make it easy for artists to appropriate, borrow, sample — or steal, depending on how you look at it — other people's work in the interest of commenting on it, taking the ideas in a new direction, parodying them, or making a statement about things like authorship, authenticity, ownership, or the culture itself. Copyright law, meanwhile, though it allows artists — as well as corporations — to protect themselves and their livelihoods by protecting their intellectual property, can also shackle freedom of expression. And finding the balance between the two effects is an ongoing legal and cultural struggle. Though Napster and YouTube have made music and video the modern flashpoints of conflict between digital creativity and copyright, the issues play out in all the same ways for visual artists too, Paulsen says — even though, until recently, the art world has tended to treat appropriation as a philosophical question more than a legal one. "We're interested in thinking about the nuts-and-bolts legal questions that affect artistic production," she says. "Usually this doesn't enter into the equation." Another issue is that so much in the world is trademarked or copyrighted nowadays that photos or video shot in the street almost can't avoid having copyrighted images in them, adorning objects such as signs or buildings. "The idea that anyone who owns the trademark can stop you from commenting on it is a very dangerous place to get into," Paulsen contends. Though a court may eventually decide that an appropriation is a "fair use" of another's material, "that doesn't mean you can't be sued, and most people don't have the money to take on Disney or Viacom." Fair use is a legal concept that condones appropriation if, for example, the borrowed work is transformed into something new, or at least transformed enough. Though judicial discretion is key in such judgments, and other tests must be applied to each case, parody and criticism are generally considered to meet fair-use restrictions. *When lawsuits loom* But in one famous case, artist Jeff Koons' wood sculpture *String of Puppies *, which rendered in three dimensions an image taken from a postcard, was deemed not transformed enough to be considered a protected fair use. The court decision "had a really devastating effect on artists," Paulsen says. And now digital media raises new questions. "Koons didn't make an exact copy — he made a sculpture of an image," Paulsen points out before asking, "What happens when you take the image exactly as it is, with nothing but copying and pasting between the original and its appropriation?" The looming threat of lawsuits is enough to create a culture of fear in the art world, she adds, one that can lead to self-censorship as effectively as litigation itself. [image: San Francisco's Billboard Liberation Front]The challenge of reconciling the artistic impulse to appropriation with the constraints of copyright law will be the focus of next week's "Takeovers & Makeovers" conference, among whose presenters will be members of San Francisco's Billboard Liberation Front, who will speak on "Media Banditry in the Digital Age." A Friday-morning conference panel will take this issue on directly. "Best Practices for the Arts/Myths of Fair Use" promises a discussion between artist Mandiberg and two experts in the field of digital technology and intellectual-property law. One of them is Jason Schultz, acting director of Berkeley's multidisciplinary Samuelson Law, Technology, and Public Policy Clinic, which participates in Chilling Effects (chillingeffects.org), an online resource center run by several top universities to help the public deal with legal issues that spring from the Internet, including copyright conflicts. The digital revolution also has pitched museum curators into tricky territory, says Berkeley Art Museum (BAM) digital-media director and adjunct curator Richard Rinehart, who says they are caught between artists/creators and the consumers of their art — students and publishers. He'll speak on a Friday panel devoted to this subject. "We want to provide research access to our collection," says Rinehart. "For example, we can take photos [of artworks] and put them on the Web." But * should* a museum do so merely because it can? What if curators can't find artists to ask their permission. What if the artists are no longer living? "Can we put it on the Web because we're part of a university, and it's okay for non-profit educational use?" he asks rhetorically. Maybe so — but if a museum does that, its valued relationship with "the community of artists" might well be jeopardized, Rinehart says. And if it doesn't, it might anger the students and researchers who depend on it. "We end up being more conservative than the law permits," Rinehart acknowledges. Other considerations may be raised by an artwork itself. In a new BAM exhibit called "Gas Zappers," artist Kenneth Tin-Kin Hung, in Rinehart's words, "basically steals all these images from all over the Internet" and incorporates them into an online game that takes on the issue of global warming. "And here we are presenting it at Berkeley," Rinehart continues. "We have to think not only about the risk the artist is incurring, but whether we're somehow putting the campus at risk as well." Another example is New York artist Mark Napier's *Shredder 1.0*, a piece Rinehart presents to students in his digital-media class. It's a website where a user enters the URL of another site. The "Shredder" goes to that page, mashes up what's there, and recombines it all in a new sliced-and-diced image. Muses Rinehart: "What if it shreds the Stanford website? And Stanford comes to us, and we say, 'it's part of an artwork.' And they say, 'We don't care, it's ours.' From our perspective we're just collecting these works and presenting them. So what's our liability? They didn't have to worry about these things in Leonardo's day." In the end, Rinehart says, such questions boil down to one principle: "It's not just about the letter of the law, about protecting our money through avoiding legal risk and liability. We're all about the *spirit* of the law. We're concerned about the ethics of everything. Maybe we'll decide that in this age of reproducibility this kind of work needs to be made, and we need to create a safe public space for it." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 13:52:01 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:52:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> Lastly, My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which I can understand. The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any member. So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my ideology. So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am really a hurdle. But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. regards Pawan Durani On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Kirdar, > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > group. > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have one. > > Pawan > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >> is ticking. >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Kirdar, >> > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> from . >> > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he >> > considers himself one. >> > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> Geelani >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >> that >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> investigated.What >> > makes the two different ? >> > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in >> all >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and >> non >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this >> list >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >> ..... >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> himself >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , >> Panun >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong >> with >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> However i >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member >> as we >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. >> But >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> these. >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >> odds. >> > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits >> world >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle >> the >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> > supporter of that ? >> > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is >> to >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> undergone >> > Exodus and genocide. >> > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> myself >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >> what >> > not to word. >> > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge >> a >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and >> > others be removed. >> > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >> they do >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Pawan Durani >> > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > > >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> exposed. >> >> > The >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> >> > Aditya , >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> nothing >> >> > but >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> >> > Shivam >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, >> >> >> and >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >> and >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon >> >> >> allies >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> >> >> list, >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> associated >> >> >> with >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >> >> >> the >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >> so >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> masters' >> >> >> and >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> position >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> account >> >> >> for >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> agent, >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when >> >> >> the >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> >> >> being >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> >> >> local >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >> is >> >> >> the >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >> >> >> fails >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar >> on >> >> >> to >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >> for >> >> >> their >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> >> >> these >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >> >> >> doing >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> beholden >> >> >> to. >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting >> to >> >> >> the >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >> own >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >> >> >> agree >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >> when >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >> line >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >> has >> >> >> been >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >> of >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >> this >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we >> >> >> are >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing >> to >> >> >> take >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> think >> >> >> that >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >> at >> >> >> such >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >> hack >> >> >> who >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >> leavings >> >> >> from >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> >> payments >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> >> >> either. >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >> the >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >> the >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> >> professional >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> especially >> >> >> as >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing >> to >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >> thrown >> >> >> in >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >> then >> >> >> we >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> >> >> with >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> taken, >> >> >> so >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >> follow >> >> >> each >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> capitalized >> >> >> for >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >> case >> >> >> are >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by >> >> >> a >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> how >> >> >> he >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> >> >> stand >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> character >> >> >> and >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >> know >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> count >> >> >> as >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >> List >> >> >> on any >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want >> to >> >> >> know >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >> List >> >> >> is a >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> substantiate >> >> >> this, >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >> this. >> >> >> In >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> list, >> >> >> or >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> support >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> >> >> reading >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> >> because >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> >> >> way he >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >> we >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> >> >> list of >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here >> >> >> that I >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >> this >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >> be >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> Kuomintang >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >> for >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> specifically >> >> >> those >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> government >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> >> >> would >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> critics >> >> >> of >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >> >> >> record >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >> of >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> >> >> that >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >> the >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> the >> >> >> date >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >> >> >> for >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >> Or, >> >> >> if >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the >> >> >> list >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >> >> >> half) >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> >> >> serious >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> benefit >> >> >> of >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >> when >> >> >> I do >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >> >> >> need a >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >> Raj >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they >> >> >> can >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> arguments >> >> >> and >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> personal >> >> >> lives >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >> >> >> poison >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >> have >> >> >> to >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >> I >> >> >> am >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> suggests >> >> >> that I >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> statement >> >> >> about >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >> >> >> settle >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> >> >> proves >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >> The >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> power' >> >> >> in >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >> the >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> >> person or >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:14:26 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but bleats to offer. Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as well. So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. Warm regards (as it seems for the last time) Aarti P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any private communications with you at all. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Lastly, > > My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which > I can understand. > > The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a > right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any > member. > So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] > > Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. > > If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the > judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double > the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my > ideology. > > So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand > that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in > either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am > really a hurdle. > > But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. > > regards > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Kirdar, > > > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes > him > > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > > group. > > > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have > one. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> > >> Dear Pawan > >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > >> > >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy > >> about the plight of KPs. > >> > >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > >> is ticking. > >> > >> Kirdar > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Kirdar, > >> > > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come > >> from . > >> > > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of > >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he > >> > considers himself one. > >> > > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on > >> Geelani > >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write > >> that > >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > >> investigated.What > >> > makes the two different ? > >> > > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of > certain > >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in > >> all > >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he > co > >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and > >> non > >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > >> > > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just > >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this > >> list > >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate > >> ..... > >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > >> himself > >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... > >> > > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , > >> Panun > >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong > >> with > >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > >> However i > >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of > the > >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member > >> as we > >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > advise. > >> But > >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of > >> these. > >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all > >> odds. > >> > > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits > >> world > >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle > >> the > >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > >> > > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > Chinese > >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does > it > >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a > >> > supporter of that ? > >> > > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is > >> to > >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > >> undergone > >> > Exodus and genocide. > >> > > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > >> myself > >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and > >> what > >> > not to word. > >> > > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not > challenge > >> a > >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and > >> > others be removed. > >> > > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so > >> they do > >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > >> > > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > >> > > >> > Regards > >> > > >> > Pawan Durani > >> > > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear Pawan > >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of > foreign > >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such > >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I > think > >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that > >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are > >> >> gone. > >> >> > >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe > >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > >> >> > >> >> Kirdar > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com > >> > > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Dear All, > >> >> > > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > >> exposed. > >> >> > The > >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > >> >> > > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , > >> >> > Aditya , > >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are > >> nothing > >> >> > but > >> >> > figment of his own imagination. > >> >> > > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , > >> >> > Shivam > >> >> > and Arti have to be. > >> >> > > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > >> >> > > >> >> > Pawan > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dear All, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our > >> list, > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > >> >> >> Unfortunately it > >> >> >> is not without precedent. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' > >> and > >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced > with > >> >> >> detailed > >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > >> >> >> habitually > >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > >> >> >> desires to > >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena > goon > >> >> >> allies > >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > >> >> >> university. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in > this > >> >> >> list, > >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > >> associated > >> >> >> with > >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > >> >> >> insinuations > >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya > Raj > >> >> >> Kaul) > >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel > or > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be > doing > >> so > >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > >> masters' > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > ethical > >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > >> position > >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > >> account > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of > being > >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > >> >> >> 'writers' > >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid > >> agent, > >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made > >> when > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > >> >> >> propoganda > >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they > are > >> >> >> being > >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their > >> >> >> local > >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the > foreign > >> >> >> hand' > >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > >> >> >> politicians > >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. > It > >> is > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > >> >> >> reality and > >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide > but > >> >> >> fails > >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar > >> on > >> >> >> to > >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > >> >> >> keeps, > >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > >> >> >> Kashmir' > >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write > >> for > >> >> >> their > >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that > >> >> >> these > >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to > be > >> >> >> doing > >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > >> beholden > >> >> >> to. > >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting > >> to > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as > their > >> own > >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who > doesn't > >> >> >> agree > >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions > >> when > >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard > >> line > >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti > >> has > >> >> >> been > >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > accused > >> of > >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > specific > >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been > called > >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take > >> this > >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > casually > >> >> >> either. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing > what > >> we > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' > is > >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing > >> to > >> >> >> take > >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > >> >> >> accounts > >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should > >> think > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for > purchase > >> at > >> >> >> such > >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired > >> hack > >> >> >> who > >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and > >> leavings > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one > is > >> >> >> paid by > >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > >> >> >> payments > >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > >> >> >> either. > >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing > on > >> the > >> >> >> Reader List either. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to > >> the > >> >> >> Sarai > >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > >> >> >> professional > >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > >> especially > >> >> >> as > >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing > >> to > >> >> >> ignore > >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > >> thrown > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, > >> then > >> >> >> we > >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not > think > >> >> >> deserves > >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each > quote > >> >> >> with > >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > >> taken, > >> >> >> so > >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > >> follow > >> >> >> each > >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > >> capitalized > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -------------------------- > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 1. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > >> >> >> COUNTRY , > >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment > >> case > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> being followed more closely. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their > >> links > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come > out > >> >> >> soon..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort > backed > >> by > >> >> >> a > >> >> >> foreign country' > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > >> >> >> ascertained' > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of > >> how > >> >> >> he > >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or > >> >> >> stand > >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > >> character > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to > >> know > >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > >> count > >> >> >> as > >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 2. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL > TIME > >> >> >> JOB > >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > neither > >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader > >> List > >> >> >> on any > >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want > >> to > >> >> >> know > >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader > >> List > >> >> >> is a > >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > >> substantiate > >> >> >> this, > >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what > I > >> >> >> do, or > >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for > >> this. > >> >> >> In > >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate > this > >> >> >> charge, > >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this > >> list, > >> >> >> or > >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 3. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID > JOB, > >> >> >> UNLIKE > >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > >> support > >> >> >> their > >> >> >> > >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, > from > >> >> >> reading > >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > >> >> >> because > >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > >> >> >> immediately > >> >> >> before this still hold. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 4. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, > and > >> >> >> also IT > >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in > the > >> >> >> way he > >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 5. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS > and > >> we > >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have > a > >> >> >> list of > >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making > here > >> >> >> that I > >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have > >> this > >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he > should > >> be > >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 6. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> >> persons' > >> >> >> status > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what > I > >> >> >> mean." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree > with > >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > >> >> >> "Chinese > >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > >> Kuomintang > >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference > >> for > >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > >> >> >> referring to > >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > >> specifically > >> >> >> those > >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > >> >> >> government > >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > >> >> >> would > >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > >> critics > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > >> government > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone > on > >> >> >> record > >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > >> government > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > Government > >> of > >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > >> baseless. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 7. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> >> persons' > >> >> >> status > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > MASTERS > >> >> >> TONE..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's > insinuation > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act > at > >> the > >> >> >> behest of their masters. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----------------- > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None > >> >> >> > >> >> >> __________________________ > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from > >> the > >> >> >> date > >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable > proof > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > >> >> >> scurrilous > >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. > >> Or, > >> >> >> if > >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > and > >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request > the > >> >> >> list > >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > >> >> >> immediate > >> >> >> effect. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > >> >> >> favour of > >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and > a > >> >> >> half) > >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > >> >> >> serious > >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > >> >> >> rubbish > >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion > on > >> >> >> grounds > >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > >> benefit > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially > >> when > >> >> >> I do > >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in > anger > >> >> >> need a > >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya > >> Raj > >> >> >> Kaul > >> >> >> and their allies. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that > >> they > >> >> >> can > >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > >> >> >> conjecture. > >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > >> arguments > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > >> personal > >> >> >> lives > >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, > spread > >> >> >> poison > >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There > >> have > >> >> >> to > >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > >> >> >> foreign > >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, > or > >> I > >> >> >> am > >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > >> suggests > >> >> >> that I > >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > >> statement > >> >> >> about > >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way > to > >> >> >> settle > >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation > >> >> >> proves > >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. > >> The > >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign > >> power' > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. > Such > >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is > libel > >> and > >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > the > >> >> >> grounds > >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and > >> the > >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a > >> >> >> person or > >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > >> conceal. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> regards > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Shuddha > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:29:54 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:29:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> lal Salaam,, Arti, Are u a moderator ? pawan On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but > bleats to offer. > > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as > well. > > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. > > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. > > Warm regards > (as it seems for the last time) > > Aarti > > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any > private communications with you at all. > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Lastly, >> >> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >> which >> I can understand. >> >> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a >> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >> member. >> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] >> >> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >> >> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the >> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double >> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my >> ideology. >> >> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand >> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in >> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i >> am >> really a hurdle. >> >> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >> >> regards >> >> Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> > Kirdar, >> > >> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes >> him >> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >> > >> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this >> > group. >> > >> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >> > >> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >> > >> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have >> one. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >> >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >> >> is ticking. >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani > > >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Kirdar, >> >> > >> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> >> from . >> >> > >> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters >> of >> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless >> he >> >> > considers himself one. >> >> > >> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> >> Geelani >> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >> >> that >> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> >> investigated.What >> >> > makes the two different ? >> >> > >> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >> certain >> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens >> in >> >> all >> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he >> co >> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and >> >> non >> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> >> > >> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >> just >> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >> this >> >> list >> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >> >> ..... >> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> >> himself >> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> >> > >> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena >> , >> >> Panun >> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >> wrong >> >> with >> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> >> However i >> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of >> the >> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >> member >> >> as we >> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >> advise. >> >> But >> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> >> these. >> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >> >> odds. >> >> > >> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >> pandits >> >> world >> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >> scuttle >> >> the >> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> >> > >> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >> Chinese >> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does >> it >> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> >> > supporter of that ? >> >> > >> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom >> is >> >> to >> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> >> undergone >> >> > Exodus and genocide. >> >> > >> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> >> myself >> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >> >> what >> >> > not to word. >> >> > >> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >> challenge >> >> a >> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >> and >> >> > others be removed. >> >> > >> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >> >> they do >> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> >> > >> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >> >> > >> >> > Regards >> >> > >> >> > Pawan Durani >> >> > >> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >> foreign >> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >> such >> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >> think >> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >> that >> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >> Maybe >> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >> pawan.durani at gmail.com >> >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Dear All, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> >> exposed. >> >> >> > The >> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me >> , >> >> >> > Aditya , >> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> >> nothing >> >> >> > but >> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> >> >> > Shivam >> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Pawan >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> >> list, >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >> >> and >> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >> with >> >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >> goon >> >> >> >> allies >> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >> this >> >> >> >> list, >> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> >> associated >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya >> Raj >> >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel >> or >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >> doing >> >> so >> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> >> masters' >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >> ethical >> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >> these >> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> >> position >> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> >> account >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >> being >> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >> So, >> >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> >> agent, >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >> made >> >> when >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they >> are >> >> >> >> being >> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >> their >> >> >> >> local >> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >> foreign >> >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. >> It >> >> is >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide >> but >> >> >> >> fails >> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >> Jabbar >> >> on >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >> Durani >> >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >> write >> >> for >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >> that >> >> >> >> these >> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to >> be >> >> >> >> doing >> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> >> beholden >> >> >> >> to. >> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >> admitting >> >> to >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >> their >> >> own >> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >> doesn't >> >> >> >> agree >> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >> >> when >> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >> >> line >> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >> >> has >> >> >> >> been >> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >> accused >> >> of >> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >> specific >> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >> called >> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >> >> this >> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >> casually >> >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing >> what >> >> we >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' >> is >> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >> willing >> >> to >> >> >> >> take >> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> >> think >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >> purchase >> >> at >> >> >> >> such >> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >> hired >> >> hack >> >> >> >> who >> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >> >> leavings >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one >> is >> >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> >> >> payments >> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >> writing >> >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing >> on >> >> the >> >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >> >> the >> >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> >> >> professional >> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> >> especially >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >> willing >> >> to >> >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >> >> thrown >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >> >> then >> >> >> >> we >> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >> think >> >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >> quote >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> >> taken, >> >> >> >> so >> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >> >> follow >> >> >> >> each >> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> >> capitalized >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >> >> case >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come >> out >> >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >> the >> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >> backed >> >> by >> >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details >> of >> >> how >> >> >> >> he >> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, >> or >> >> >> >> stand >> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> >> character >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >> >> know >> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> >> count >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL >> TIME >> >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >> neither >> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >> >> List >> >> >> >> on any >> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >> want >> >> to >> >> >> >> know >> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >> Reader >> >> List >> >> >> >> is a >> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> >> substantiate >> >> >> >> this, >> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >> what I >> >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >> >> this. >> >> >> >> In >> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate >> this >> >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> >> list, >> >> >> >> or >> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >> JOB, >> >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> >> support >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >> from >> >> >> >> reading >> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> >> >> because >> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, >> and >> >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in >> the >> >> >> >> way he >> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS >> and >> >> we >> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to >> me >> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have >> a >> >> >> >> list of >> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making >> here >> >> >> >> that I >> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >> have >> >> this >> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >> should >> >> be >> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >> what I >> >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree >> with >> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> >> Kuomintang >> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >> preference >> >> for >> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> >> specifically >> >> >> >> those >> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> >> government >> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people >> he >> >> >> >> would >> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> >> critics >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> government >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone >> on >> >> >> >> record >> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> >> government >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >> Government >> >> of >> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >> MASTERS >> >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >> insinuation >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act >> at >> >> the >> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >> (from >> >> the >> >> >> >> date >> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >> proof >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >> >> Or, >> >> >> >> if >> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated >> and >> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >> the >> >> >> >> list >> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >> and a >> >> >> >> half) >> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >> (in >> >> >> >> serious >> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion >> on >> >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> >> benefit >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >> >> when >> >> >> >> I do >> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >> anger >> >> >> >> need a >> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >> Aditya >> >> Raj >> >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >> that >> >> they >> >> >> >> can >> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> >> arguments >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> >> personal >> >> >> >> lives >> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >> spread >> >> >> >> poison >> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >> There >> >> have >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, >> or >> >> I >> >> >> >> am >> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> >> suggests >> >> >> >> that I >> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> >> statement >> >> >> >> about >> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way >> to >> >> >> >> settle >> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >> allegation >> >> >> >> proves >> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >> witness. >> >> The >> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >> serious >> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> >> power' >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >> Such >> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >> libel >> >> and >> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on >> the >> >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >> and >> >> the >> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> >> >> person or >> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:33:36 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:33:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things I am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said about you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh? On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > lal Salaam,, > > Arti, > > Are u a moderator ? > > pawan > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter >> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our >> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but >> bleats to offer. >> >> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If >> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it >> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate >> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not >> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as >> well. >> >> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The >> game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put >> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the >> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where >> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. >> >> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations >> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself >> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather >> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. >> >> Warm regards >> (as it seems for the last time) >> >> Aarti >> >> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any >> private communications with you at all. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Lastly, >>> >>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >>> which >>> I can understand. >>> >>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a >>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >>> member. >>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] >>> >>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >>> >>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the >>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double >>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in >>> my >>> ideology. >>> >>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand >>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in >>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i >>> am >>> really a hurdle. >>> >>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Pawan Durani >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> > >>> > Kirdar, >>> > >>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes >>> him >>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >>> > >>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this >>> > group. >>> > >>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >>> > >>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >>> > >>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have >>> one. >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> > >>> > >>> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear Pawan >>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >>> >> >>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >>> >> about the plight of KPs. >>> >> >>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >>> >> is ticking. >>> >> >>> >> Kirdar >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < >>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > Dear Kirdar, >>> >> > >>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they >>> come >>> >> from . >>> >> > >>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters >>> of >>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless >>> he >>> >> > considers himself one. >>> >> > >>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >>> >> Geelani >>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >>> >> that >>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >>> >> investigated.What >>> >> > makes the two different ? >>> >> > >>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >>> certain >>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens >>> in >>> >> all >>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he >>> co >>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members >>> and >>> >> non >>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >>> >> > >>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >>> just >>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >>> this >>> >> list >>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >>> >> ..... >>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >>> >> himself >>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >>> >> > >>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena >>> , >>> >> Panun >>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >>> wrong >>> >> with >>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >>> >> However i >>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of >>> the >>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >>> member >>> >> as we >>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >>> advise. >>> >> But >>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >>> >> these. >>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >>> >> odds. >>> >> > >>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >>> pandits >>> >> world >>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >>> scuttle >>> >> the >>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >>> >> > >>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >>> Chinese >>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why >>> does it >>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself >>> a >>> >> > supporter of that ? >>> >> > >>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom >>> is >>> >> to >>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >>> >> undergone >>> >> > Exodus and genocide. >>> >> > >>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >>> >> myself >>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >>> >> what >>> >> > not to word. >>> >> > >>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >>> challenge >>> >> a >>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >>> and >>> >> > others be removed. >>> >> > >>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >>> >> they do >>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >>> >> > >>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >>> >> > >>> >> > Regards >>> >> > >>> >> > Pawan Durani >>> >> > >>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Dear Pawan >>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >>> foreign >>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >>> such >>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >>> think >>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >>> that >>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you >>> are >>> >> >> gone. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >>> Maybe >>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Kirdar >>> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >>> pawan.durani at gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >> > Dear All, >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>> >> exposed. >>> >> >> > The >>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me >>> , >>> >> >> > Aditya , >>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >>> >> nothing >>> >> >> > but >>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder >>> , >>> >> >> > Shivam >>> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Pawan >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Dear All, >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on >>> our >>> >> list, >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >>> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun >>> Kashmir' >>> >> and >>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >>> with >>> >> >> >> detailed >>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their >>> 'case', >>> >> >> >> habitually >>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >>> >> >> >> desires to >>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >>> goon >>> >> >> >> allies >>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at >>> the >>> >> >> >> university. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >>> this >>> >> >> >> list, >>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>> >> associated >>> >> >> >> with >>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>> >> >> >> insinuations >>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya >>> Raj >>> >> >> >> Kaul) >>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK >>> gospel or >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >>> doing >>> >> so >>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>> >> masters' >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >>> ethical >>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >>> these >>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >>> >> position >>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >>> >> account >>> >> >> >> for >>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >>> being >>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >>> So, >>> >> >> >> 'writers' >>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >>> >> agent, >>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >>> made >>> >> when >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >>> >> >> >> propoganda >>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they >>> are >>> >> >> >> being >>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >>> their >>> >> >> >> local >>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >>> foreign >>> >> >> >> hand' >>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >>> >> >> >> politicians >>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. >>> It >>> >> is >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >>> >> >> >> reality and >>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide >>> but >>> >> >> >> fails >>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >>> Jabbar >>> >> on >>> >> >> >> to >>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >>> Durani >>> >> >> >> keeps, >>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >>> >> >> >> Kashmir' >>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >>> write >>> >> for >>> >> >> >> their >>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >>> that >>> >> >> >> these >>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem >>> to be >>> >> >> >> doing >>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>> >> beholden >>> >> >> >> to. >>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >>> admitting >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >>> their >>> >> own >>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >>> doesn't >>> >> >> >> agree >>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >>> >> when >>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >>> >> line >>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, >>> Aarti >>> >> has >>> >> >> >> been >>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >>> accused >>> >> of >>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >>> specific >>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >>> called >>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >>> >> this >>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >>> casually >>> >> >> >> either. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing >>> what >>> >> we >>> >> >> >> are >>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >>> 'terrorist' is >>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >>> willing >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> take >>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >>> >> >> >> accounts >>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani >>> should >>> >> think >>> >> >> >> that >>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >>> purchase >>> >> at >>> >> >> >> such >>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >>> hired >>> >> hack >>> >> >> >> who >>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >>> >> leavings >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No >>> one is >>> >> >> >> paid by >>> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. >>> No >>> >> >> >> payments >>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >>> writing >>> >> >> >> either. >>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing >>> on >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> Reader List either. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, >>> to >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> Sarai >>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >>> >> >> >> professional >>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >>> >> especially >>> >> >> >> as >>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >>> willing >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> ignore >>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >>> >> thrown >>> >> >> >> in >>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two >>> weeks, >>> >> then >>> >> >> >> we >>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >>> think >>> >> >> >> deserves >>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >>> quote >>> >> >> >> with >>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >>> >> taken, >>> >> >> >> so >>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >>> >> follow >>> >> >> >> each >>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>> >> capitalized >>> >> >> >> for >>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------- >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 1. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >>> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >>> >> case >>> >> >> >> are >>> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and >>> their >>> >> links >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come >>> out >>> >> >> >> soon..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >>> the >>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >>> backed >>> >> by >>> >> >> >> a >>> >> >> >> foreign country' >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are >>> being >>> >> >> >> ascertained' >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details >>> of >>> >> how >>> >> >> >> he >>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, >>> or >>> >> >> >> stand >>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>> >> character >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >>> >> know >>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >>> >> count >>> >> >> >> as >>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 2. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL >>> TIME >>> >> >> >> JOB >>> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >>> neither >>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >>> >> List >>> >> >> >> on any >>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >>> want >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> know >>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >>> Reader >>> >> List >>> >> >> >> is a >>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>> >> substantiate >>> >> >> >> this, >>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >>> what I >>> >> >> >> do, or >>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >>> >> this. >>> >> >> >> In >>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate >>> this >>> >> >> >> charge, >>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from >>> this >>> >> list, >>> >> >> >> or >>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 3. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>> Displacement >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >>> JOB, >>> >> >> >> UNLIKE >>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>> >> support >>> >> >> >> their >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >>> from >>> >> >> >> reading >>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >>> >> >> >> because >>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >>> >> >> >> immediately >>> >> >> >> before this still hold. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 4. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>> Displacement >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, >>> and >>> >> >> >> also IT >>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in >>> the >>> >> >> >> way he >>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 5. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>> Displacement >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS >>> and >>> >> we >>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to >>> me >>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani >>> have a >>> >> >> >> list of >>> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making >>> here >>> >> >> >> that I >>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >>> have >>> >> this >>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >>> should >>> >> be >>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 6. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> >> >> >> persons' >>> >> >> >> status >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >>> what I >>> >> >> >> mean." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree >>> with >>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What >>> does >>> >> >> >> "Chinese >>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>> >> Kuomintang >>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >>> preference >>> >> for >>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>> >> >> >> referring to >>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >>> >> specifically >>> >> >> >> those >>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> >> >> >> government >>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people >>> he >>> >> >> >> would >>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>> >> critics >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> >> government >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone >>> on >>> >> >> >> record >>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >>> >> government >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >>> Government >>> >> of >>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >>> >> baseless. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 7. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> >> >> >> persons' >>> >> >> >> status >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >>> MASTERS >>> >> >> >> TONE..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >>> insinuation >>> >> >> >> that >>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act >>> at >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> ----------------- >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> __________________________ >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >>> (from >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> date >>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >>> proof >>> >> >> >> for >>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>> >> >> >> scurrilous >>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one >>> day. >>> >> Or, >>> >> >> >> if >>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated >>> and >>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >>> the >>> >> >> >> list >>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >>> >> >> >> immediate >>> >> >> >> effect. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been >>> in >>> >> >> >> favour of >>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >>> and a >>> >> >> >> half) >>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >>> (in >>> >> >> >> serious >>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >>> >> >> >> rubbish >>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his >>> expulsion on >>> >> >> >> grounds >>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >>> >> benefit >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' >>> especially >>> >> when >>> >> >> >> I do >>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >>> anger >>> >> >> >> need a >>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >>> Aditya >>> >> Raj >>> >> >> >> Kaul >>> >> >> >> and their allies. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >>> that >>> >> they >>> >> >> >> can >>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>> >> >> >> conjecture. >>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>> >> arguments >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >>> >> personal >>> >> >> >> lives >>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >>> spread >>> >> >> >> poison >>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >>> There >>> >> have >>> >> >> >> to >>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by >>> a >>> >> >> >> foreign >>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >>> am, or >>> >> I >>> >> >> >> am >>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >>> >> suggests >>> >> >> >> that I >>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >>> >> statement >>> >> >> >> about >>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way >>> to >>> >> >> >> settle >>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >>> allegation >>> >> >> >> proves >>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >>> witness. >>> >> The >>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >>> serious >>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >>> >> power' >>> >> >> >> in >>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >>> Such >>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >>> libel >>> >> and >>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on >>> the >>> >> >> >> grounds >>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >>> and >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame >>> a >>> >> >> >> person or >>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>> >> conceal. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> regards >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Shuddha >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> > _________________________________________ >>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 14:35:21 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:35:21 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 References: Message-ID: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Oh, now it is" we "  versus they. ?  I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to seek justice.?  Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again and again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves is that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and other  terror supporters on the list. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 From: "Aarti Sethi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: sarai list , we wi ,     Shuddhabrata Sengupta Message-ID:     <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but bleats to offer. Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as well. So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. Warm regards (as it seems for the last time) Aarti P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any private communications with you at all. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Lastly, > > My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which > I can understand. > > The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a > right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any > member.. > So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] > > Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. > > If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the > judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double > the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my > ideology. > > So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand > that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in > either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am > really a hurdle. > > But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. > > regards > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Kirdar, > > > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes > him > > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > > group. > > > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have > one. > > > > Pawan > > > > > >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> > >> Dear Pawan > >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > >> > >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy > >> about the plight of KPs. > >> > >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > >> is ticking. > >> > >> Kirdar > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Kirdar, > >> > > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come > >> from . > >> > > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of > >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he > >> > considers himself one. > >> > > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on > >> Geelani > >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write > >> that > >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > >> investigated.What > >> > makes the two different ? > >> > > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of > certain > >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in > >> all > >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he > co > >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and > >> non > >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > >> > > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just > >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this > >> list > >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate > >> ..... > >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > >> himself > >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... > >> > > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , > >> Panun > >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong > >> with > >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > >> However i > >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of > the > >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member > >> as we > >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > advise. > >> But > >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of > >> these. > >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all > >> odds. > >> > > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits > >> world > >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle > >> the > >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > >> > > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > Chinese > >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does > it > >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a > >> > supporter of that ? > >> > > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is > >> to > >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > >> undergone > >> > Exodus and genocide. > >> > > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > >> myself > >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and > >> what > >> > not to word. > >> > > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not > challenge > >> a > >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and > >> > others be removed. > >> > > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so > >> they do > >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > >> > > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha. > >> > > >> > Regards > >> > > >> > Pawan Durani > >> > > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear Pawan > >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of > foreign > >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such > >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I > think > >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that > >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are > >> >> gone. > >> >> > >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe > >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > >> >> > >> >> Kirdar > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com > >> > > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Dear All, > >> >> > > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > >> exposed. > >> >> > The > >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > >> >> > > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , > >> >> > Aditya , > >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are > >> nothing > >> >> > but > >> >> > figment of his own imagination. > >> >> > > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , > >> >> > Shivam > >> >> > and Arti have to be. > >> >> > > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > >> >> > > >> >> > Pawan > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>  Dear All, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our > >> list, > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > >> >> >> Unfortunately it > >> >> >> is not without precedent. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' > >> and > >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced > with > >> >> >> detailed > >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > >> >> >> habitually > >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > >> >> >> desires to > >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >  goon > >> >> >> allies > >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > >> >> >> university. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Of late,there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in > this > >> >> >> list, > >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > >> associated > >> >> >> with > >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > >> >> >> insinuations > >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya > Raj > >> >> >> Kaul) > >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel > or > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be > doing > >> so > >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > >> masters' > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > ethical > >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > >> position > >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > >> account > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of > being > >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > >> >> >> 'writers' > >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid > >> agent, > >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made > >> when > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > >> >> >> propoganda > >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they > are > >> >> >> being > >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their > >> >> >> local > >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the > foreign > >> >> >> hand' > >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > >> >> >> politicians > >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. > It > >> is > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > >> >> >> reality and > >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide > but > >> >> >> fails > >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar > >> on > >> >> >> to > >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > >> >> >> keeps, > >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > >> >> >> Kashmir' > >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write > >> for > >> >> >> their > >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that > >> >> >> these > >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to > be > >> >> >> doing > >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > >> beholden > >> >> >> to. > >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting > >> to > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as > their > >> own > >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who > doesn't > >> >> >> agree > >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions > >> when > >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard > >> line > >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti > >> has > >> >> >> been > >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > accused > >> of > >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > specific > >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been > called > >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take > >> this > >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > casually > >> >> >> either. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing > what > >> we > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' > is > >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing > >> to > >> >> >> take > >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > >> >> >> accounts > >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should > >> think > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for > purchase > >> at > >> >> >> such > >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired > >> hack > >> >> >> who > >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and > >> leavings > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one > is > >> >> >> paid by > >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > >> >> >> payments > >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > >> >> >> either. > >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing > on > >> the > >> >> >> Reader List either. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to > >> the > >> >> >> Sarai > >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > >> >> >> professional > >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > >> especially > >> >> >> as > >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing > >> to > >> >> >> ignore > >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > >> thrown > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, > >> then > >> >> >> we > >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not > think > >> >> >> deserves > >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each > quote > >> >> >> with > >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > >> taken, > >> >> >> so > >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > >> follow > >> >> >> each > >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > >> capitalized > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -------------------------- > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 1. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > >> >> >> COUNTRY , > >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment > >> case > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> being followed more closely. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their > >> links > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come > out > >> >> >> soon..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort > backed > >> by > >> >> >> a > >> >> >> foreign country' > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > >> >> >> ascertained' > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of > >> how > >> >> >> he > >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or > >> >> >> stand > >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > >> character > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to > >> know > >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > >> count > >> >> >> as > >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 2. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL > TIME > >> >> >> JOB > >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > neither > >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader > >> List > >> >> >> on any > >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want > >> to > >> >> >> know > >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader > >> List > >> >> >> is a > >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > >> substantiate > >> >> >> this, > >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what > I > >> >> >> do, or > >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for > >> this. > >> >> >> In > >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate > this > >> >> >> charge, > >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this > >> list, > >> >> >> or > >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 3. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID > JOB, > >> >> >> UNLIKE > >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > >> support > >> >> >> their > >> >> >> > >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, > from > >> >> >> reading > >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > >> >> >> because > >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > >> >> >> immediately > >> >> >> before this still hold. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 4. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, > and > >> >> >> also IT > >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in > the > >> >> >> way he > >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 5. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS > and > >> we > >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have > a > >> >> >> list of > >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making > here > >> >> >> that I > >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have > >> this > >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he > should > >> be > >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 6. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> >> persons' > >> >> >> status > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what > I > >> >> >> mean." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree > with > >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > >> >> >> "Chinese > >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > >> Kuomintang > >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference > >> for > >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is > >> >> >> referring to > >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > >> specifically > >> >> >> those > >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > >> >> >> government > >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > >> >> >> would > >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > >> critics > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > >> government > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone > on > >> >> >> record > >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > >> government > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > Government > >> of > >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > >> baseless. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 7. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> >> persons' > >> >> >> status > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > MASTERS > >> >> >> TONE..." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's > insinuation > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act > at > >> the > >> >> >> behest of their masters. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----------------- > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None > >> >> >> > >> >> >> __________________________ > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from > >> the > >> >> >> date > >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable > proof > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > >> >> >> scurrilous > >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. > >> Or, > >> >> >> if > >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > and > >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >  the > >> >> >> list > >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > >> >> >> immediate > >> >> >> effect. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > >> >> >> favour of > >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and > a > >> >> >> half) > >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > >> >> >> serious > >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > >> >> >> rubbish > >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion > on > >> >> >> grounds > >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > >> benefit > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially > >> when > >> >> >> I do > >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in > anger > >> >> >> need a > >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya > >> Raj > >> >> >> Kaul > >> >> >> and their allies. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that > >> they > >> >> >> can > >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > >> >> >> conjecture. > >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > >> arguments > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > >> personal > >> >> >> lives > >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, > spread > >> >> >> poison > >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There > >> have > >> >> >> to > >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > >> >> >> foreign > >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, > or > >> I > >> >> >> am > >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > >> suggests > >> >> >> that I > >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > >> statement > >> >> >> about > >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way > to > >> >> >> settle > >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation > >> >> >> proves > >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. > >> The > >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign > >> power' > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. > Such > >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is > libel > >> and > >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > the > >> >> >> grounds > >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and > >> the > >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a > >> >> >> person or > >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > >> conceal. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> regards > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Shuddha > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 ******************************************** Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:37:26 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:37:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811092121r21ad1265u3670588dcfe98020@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811092121r21ad1265u3670588dcfe98020@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: making unsubstianted allegetions is cheap mudslinging specialised by the nazi party and goebbles that is how the hindu fascists spread roumers about religeous minorities and organise mediaval progroms rape mureder loot etc jingoistic slapstic natinalism leads to fascism a person who takes a shameless hindu fascist line and not ashamed of himself should not be taken seriously one should not waste their time in arguing with mediaval communal fascists asit On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off? > Please > include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date and > time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring to > their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used strong > language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support right-wing > Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to > *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According > to > you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I > write, > as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has > recourse to *facts* in this case. > > This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our > writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new > terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a > matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence that, > unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against > people, I am far more circumspect about what I write. > > So please, tell me where I have said this about you. > > regards > Aarti > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. > The > > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > > > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , > Aditya > > , > > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > > > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing > but > > figment of his own imagination. > > > > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , Shivam > > and Arti have to be. > > > > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list, > > and > > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > Unfortunately > > it > > > is not without precedent. > > > > > > > > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and > > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with > > detailed > > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', > > habitually > > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > desires > > to > > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon > > allies > > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the > > > university. > > > > > > > > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this > list, > > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated > > with > > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > insinuations > > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj > > Kaul) > > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or > the > > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so > > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' > > and > > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical > > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these > > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position > > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account > > for > > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being > > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, > > 'writers' > > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, > > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when > > the > > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > > propoganda > > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > > > > > > > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are > being > > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their > local > > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign > hand' > > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > > politicians > > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is > > the > > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > reality > > and > > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but > > fails > > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > > > > > > > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on > to > > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani > keeps, > > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > Kashmir' > > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for > > their > > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that > these > > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be > > doing > > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden > > to. > > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to > the > > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own > > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't > agree > > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > > > > > > > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when > > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line > > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has > > been > > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of > > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific > > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called > > > 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > > > > > > > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this > > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually > > > either. > > > > > > > > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we > > are > > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is > > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to > > take > > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > accounts > > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think > > that > > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at > > such > > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack > > who > > > writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings > > from > > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is > paid > > by > > > the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No > > payments > > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing > > either. > > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the > > > Reader List either. > > > > > > > > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the > > Sarai > > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > > professional > > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially > as > > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to > > ignore > > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown > in > > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then > we > > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think > > deserves > > > to be ignored or overlooked. > > > > > > > > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote > with > > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, > so > > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow > > each > > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized > > for > > > reasons of emphasis (mine). > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > > > > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > COUNTRY > > , > > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case > are > > > being followed more closely. > > > > > > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > > > > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out > > > soon..." > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > > > > > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the > > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by > a > > > foreign country' > > > > > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being > > > ascertained' > > > > > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > > > > > > > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how > he > > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or > stand > > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character > > and > > > reputation of people in a public forum. > > > > > > > > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know > > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count > as > > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > > > > > > > > 2. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > > > > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME > JOB > > > FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither > > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List > on > > any > > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to > > know > > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List > > is a > > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate > > this, > > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I > do, > > or > > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. > In > > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this > > charge, > > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, > > or > > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > > > > > > > > > 3. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from > > > Kashmir > > > > > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, > > UNLIKE > > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support > > their > > > > > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from > > reading > > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > because > > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > > immediately > > > before this still hold. > > > > > > > > > 4. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from > > > Kashmir > > > > > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and > also > > IT > > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the > way > > he > > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > > > > > > > > 5. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement > from > > > Kashmir > > > > > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we > > > would continue to counter their agenda..." > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me > > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a > list > > of > > > my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here > that > > I > > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this > > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be > > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > > > > > > > > > 6. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' > > > status > > > > > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > > > > > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I > > mean." > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with > > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does > > "Chinese > > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang > > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for > > > Chinese cuisine? > > > > > > > > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > referring > > to > > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically > > those > > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > > government > > > of the Peoples Republic of China. > > > > > > > > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he > would > > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics > of > > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government > of > > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on > > record > > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government > of > > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of > > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. > > > > > > > > > 7. > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > persons' > > > status > > > > > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > > > > > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > > > > > > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS > > > TONE..." > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation > that > > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the > > > behest of their masters. > > > > > > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > > > > > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > > > > > > > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > > > > > > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > > > > > > > > MY COMMENT: None > > > > > > __________________________ > > > > > > > > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the > > date > > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof > for > > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > scurrilous > > > postings aimed at me and others on this list. > > > > > > > > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, > if > > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and > > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the > list > > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > immediate > > > effect. > > > > > > > > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in > favour > > of > > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a > > half) > > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in > > serious > > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > rubbish > > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on > > grounds > > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit > > of > > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when > I > > do > > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger > need > > a > > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj > > Kaul > > > and their allies. > > > > > > > > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they > > can > > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > conjecture. > > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments > > and > > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal > > lives > > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread > > poison > > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have > > to > > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > > > > > > > > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a > foreign > > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I > am > > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests > > that I > > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement > > about > > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to > > settle > > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation > proves > > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The > > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious > > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' > > in > > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such > > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > > > > > > > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and > > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the > > grounds > > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the > > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a > person > > or > > > persons with the freedom of expression. > > > > > > > > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:43:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:43:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> Lal Salaam Aarti, You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write just *anything*. Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only voice of Kashmiri Hindus. I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and for a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside India would have their support structures. if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other world. And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem. I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology. Pawan PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would have been right to object. On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things I > am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going > to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said about > you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh? > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> lal Salaam,, >> >> Arti, >> >> Are u a moderator ? >> >> pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter >>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our >>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but >>> bleats to offer. >>> >>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If >>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it >>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate >>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not >>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as >>> well. >>> >>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. >>> The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put >>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the >>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where >>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. >>> >>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations >>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself >>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather >>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. >>> >>> Warm regards >>> (as it seems for the last time) >>> >>> Aarti >>> >>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any >>> private communications with you at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>>> Lastly, >>>> >>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >>>> which >>>> I can understand. >>>> >>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have >>>> a >>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >>>> member. >>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] >>>> >>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >>>> >>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the >>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than >>>> double >>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in >>>> my >>>> ideology. >>>> >>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can >>>> understand >>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe >>>> in >>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i >>>> am >>>> really a hurdle. >>>> >>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> Pawan Durani >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Kirdar, >>>> > >>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes >>>> him >>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >>>> > >>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of >>>> this >>>> > group. >>>> > >>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >>>> > >>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >>>> > >>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt >>>> have one. >>>> > >>>> > Pawan >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Dear Pawan >>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >>>> >> >>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" >>>> - >>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >>>> >> about the plight of KPs. >>>> >> >>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >>>> >> is ticking. >>>> >> >>>> >> Kirdar >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < >>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> > Dear Kirdar, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they >>>> come >>>> >> from . >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters >>>> of >>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless >>>> he >>>> >> > considers himself one. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >>>> >> Geelani >>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i >>>> write >>>> >> that >>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >>>> >> investigated.What >>>> >> > makes the two different ? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >>>> certain >>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens >>>> in >>>> >> all >>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless >>>> he co >>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members >>>> and >>>> >> non >>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >>>> just >>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust >>>> anyone >>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >>>> this >>>> >> list >>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >>>> >> ..... >>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >>>> >> himself >>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv >>>> Sena , >>>> >> Panun >>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >>>> wrong >>>> >> with >>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >>>> >> However i >>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of >>>> the >>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >>>> member >>>> >> as we >>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >>>> advise. >>>> >> But >>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone >>>> of >>>> >> these. >>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >>>> >> odds. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >>>> pandits >>>> >> world >>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >>>> scuttle >>>> >> the >>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >>>> Chinese >>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why >>>> does it >>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself >>>> a >>>> >> > supporter of that ? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom >>>> is >>>> >> to >>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >>>> >> undergone >>>> >> > Exodus and genocide. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >>>> >> myself >>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word >>>> and >>>> >> what >>>> >> > not to word. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >>>> challenge >>>> >> a >>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >>>> and >>>> >> > others be removed. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , >>>> so >>>> >> they do >>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Regards >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Pawan Durani >>>> >> > >>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Dear Pawan >>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >>>> foreign >>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >>>> such >>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >>>> think >>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >>>> that >>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you >>>> are >>>> >> >> gone. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, >>>> please >>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations >>>> you >>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >>>> Maybe >>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Kirdar >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> wrote: >>>> >> >> > Dear All, >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>>> >> exposed. >>>> >> >> > The >>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like >>>> me , >>>> >> >> > Aditya , >>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >>>> >> nothing >>>> >> >> > but >>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder >>>> , >>>> >> >> > Shivam >>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > Pawan >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Dear All, >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on >>>> our >>>> >> list, >>>> >> >> >> and >>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun >>>> Kashmir' >>>> >> and >>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >>>> with >>>> >> >> >> detailed >>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their >>>> 'case', >>>> >> >> >> habitually >>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express >>>> their >>>> >> >> >> desires to >>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >>>> goon >>>> >> >> >> allies >>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at >>>> the >>>> >> >> >> university. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >>>> this >>>> >> >> >> list, >>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>>> >> associated >>>> >> >> >> with >>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>>> >> >> >> insinuations >>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from >>>> Aditya Raj >>>> >> >> >> Kaul) >>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK >>>> gospel or >>>> >> >> >> the >>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >>>> doing >>>> >> so >>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>>> >> masters' >>>> >> >> >> and >>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >>>> ethical >>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >>>> these >>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >>>> >> position >>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >>>> >> account >>>> >> >> >> for >>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >>>> being >>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >>>> So, >>>> >> >> >> 'writers' >>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a >>>> paid >>>> >> agent, >>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >>>> made >>>> >> when >>>> >> >> >> the >>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >>>> >> >> >> propoganda >>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they >>>> are >>>> >> >> >> being >>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >>>> their >>>> >> >> >> local >>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >>>> foreign >>>> >> >> >> hand' >>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that >>>> Indian >>>> >> >> >> politicians >>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else >>>> fails. It >>>> >> is >>>> >> >> >> the >>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect >>>> with >>>> >> >> >> reality and >>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to >>>> hide but >>>> >> >> >> fails >>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >>>> Jabbar >>>> >> on >>>> >> >> >> to >>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >>>> Durani >>>> >> >> >> keeps, >>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >>>> >> >> >> Kashmir' >>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >>>> write >>>> >> for >>>> >> >> >> their >>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >>>> that >>>> >> >> >> these >>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem >>>> to be >>>> >> >> >> doing >>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>>> >> beholden >>>> >> >> >> to. >>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >>>> admitting >>>> >> to >>>> >> >> >> the >>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >>>> their >>>> >> own >>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >>>> doesn't >>>> >> >> >> agree >>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific >>>> occasions >>>> >> when >>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK >>>> hard >>>> >> line >>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, >>>> Aarti >>>> >> has >>>> >> >> >> been >>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >>>> accused >>>> >> of >>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >>>> specific >>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >>>> called >>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not >>>> take >>>> >> this >>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >>>> casually >>>> >> >> >> either. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing >>>> what >>>> >> we >>>> >> >> >> are >>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >>>> 'terrorist' is >>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >>>> willing >>>> >> to >>>> >> >> >> take >>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my >>>> bank >>>> >> >> >> accounts >>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani >>>> should >>>> >> think >>>> >> >> >> that >>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >>>> purchase >>>> >> at >>>> >> >> >> such >>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >>>> hired >>>> >> hack >>>> >> >> >> who >>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >>>> >> leavings >>>> >> >> >> from >>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No >>>> one is >>>> >> >> >> paid by >>>> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. >>>> No >>>> >> >> >> payments >>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >>>> writing >>>> >> >> >> either. >>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include >>>> writing on >>>> >> the >>>> >> >> >> Reader List either. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, >>>> to >>>> >> the >>>> >> >> >> Sarai >>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >>>> >> >> >> professional >>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >>>> >> especially >>>> >> >> >> as >>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >>>> willing >>>> >> to >>>> >> >> >> ignore >>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >>>> >> thrown >>>> >> >> >> in >>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two >>>> weeks, >>>> >> then >>>> >> >> >> we >>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >>>> think >>>> >> >> >> deserves >>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >>>> quote >>>> >> >> >> with >>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >>>> >> taken, >>>> >> >> >> so >>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >>>> >> follow >>>> >> >> >> each >>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>>> >> capitalized >>>> >> >> >> for >>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> -------------------------- >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 1. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A >>>> FOREIGN >>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , >>>> Parlaiment >>>> >> case >>>> >> >> >> are >>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and >>>> their >>>> >> links >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come >>>> out >>>> >> >> >> soon..." >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >>>> the >>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >>>> backed >>>> >> by >>>> >> >> >> a >>>> >> >> >> foreign country' >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are >>>> being >>>> >> >> >> ascertained' >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details >>>> of >>>> >> how >>>> >> >> >> he >>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, >>>> or >>>> >> >> >> stand >>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>>> >> character >>>> >> >> >> and >>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like >>>> to >>>> >> know >>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not >>>> to >>>> >> count >>>> >> >> >> as >>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 2. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL >>>> TIME >>>> >> >> >> JOB >>>> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >>>> neither >>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the >>>> Reader >>>> >> List >>>> >> >> >> on any >>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >>>> want >>>> >> to >>>> >> >> >> know >>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >>>> Reader >>>> >> List >>>> >> >> >> is a >>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>>> >> substantiate >>>> >> >> >> this, >>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >>>> what I >>>> >> >> >> do, or >>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid >>>> for >>>> >> this. >>>> >> >> >> In >>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate >>>> this >>>> >> >> >> charge, >>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from >>>> this >>>> >> list, >>>> >> >> >> or >>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 3. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>> Displacement >>>> >> >> >> from >>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >>>> JOB, >>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE >>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>>> >> support >>>> >> >> >> their >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >>>> from >>>> >> >> >> reading >>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' >>>> (again >>>> >> >> >> because >>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have >>>> asked >>>> >> >> >> immediately >>>> >> >> >> before this still hold. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 4. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>> Displacement >>>> >> >> >> from >>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, >>>> and >>>> >> >> >> also IT >>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write >>>> in the >>>> >> >> >> way he >>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 5. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>> Displacement >>>> >> >> >> from >>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS >>>> and >>>> >> we >>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to >>>> me >>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani >>>> have a >>>> >> >> >> list of >>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making >>>> here >>>> >> >> >> that I >>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >>>> have >>>> >> this >>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >>>> should >>>> >> be >>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 6. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>>> >> >> >> persons' >>>> >> >> >> status >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >>>> what I >>>> >> >> >> mean." >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree >>>> with >>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What >>>> does >>>> >> >> >> "Chinese >>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>>> >> Kuomintang >>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >>>> preference >>>> >> for >>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>>> >> >> >> referring to >>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >>>> >> specifically >>>> >> >> >> those >>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and >>>> the >>>> >> >> >> government >>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people >>>> he >>>> >> >> >> would >>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>>> >> critics >>>> >> >> >> of >>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>>> >> government >>>> >> >> >> of >>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact >>>> gone on >>>> >> >> >> record >>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >>>> >> government >>>> >> >> >> of >>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >>>> Government >>>> >> of >>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >>>> >> baseless. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 7. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>>> >> >> >> persons' >>>> >> >> >> status >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >>>> MASTERS >>>> >> >> >> TONE..." >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >>>> insinuation >>>> >> >> >> that >>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who >>>> act at >>>> >> the >>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> ----------------- >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> __________________________ >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >>>> (from >>>> >> the >>>> >> >> >> date >>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >>>> proof >>>> >> >> >> for >>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>>> >> >> >> scurrilous >>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one >>>> day. >>>> >> Or, >>>> >> >> >> if >>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, >>>> motivated and >>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >>>> the >>>> >> >> >> list >>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >>>> >> >> >> immediate >>>> >> >> >> effect. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been >>>> in >>>> >> >> >> favour of >>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >>>> and a >>>> >> >> >> half) >>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >>>> (in >>>> >> >> >> serious >>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with >>>> their >>>> >> >> >> rubbish >>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his >>>> expulsion on >>>> >> >> >> grounds >>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >>>> >> benefit >>>> >> >> >> of >>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' >>>> especially >>>> >> when >>>> >> >> >> I do >>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >>>> anger >>>> >> >> >> need a >>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >>>> Aditya >>>> >> Raj >>>> >> >> >> Kaul >>>> >> >> >> and their allies. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >>>> that >>>> >> they >>>> >> >> >> can >>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>>> >> >> >> conjecture. >>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>>> >> arguments >>>> >> >> >> and >>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >>>> >> personal >>>> >> >> >> lives >>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >>>> spread >>>> >> >> >> poison >>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >>>> There >>>> >> have >>>> >> >> >> to >>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by >>>> a >>>> >> >> >> foreign >>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >>>> am, or >>>> >> I >>>> >> >> >> am >>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >>>> >> suggests >>>> >> >> >> that I >>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >>>> >> statement >>>> >> >> >> about >>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only >>>> way to >>>> >> >> >> settle >>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >>>> allegation >>>> >> >> >> proves >>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >>>> witness. >>>> >> The >>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >>>> serious >>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a >>>> 'foreign >>>> >> power' >>>> >> >> >> in >>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >>>> Such >>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >>>> libel >>>> >> and >>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection >>>> on the >>>> >> >> >> grounds >>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >>>> and >>>> >> the >>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame >>>> a >>>> >> >> >> person or >>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>>> >> conceal. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> regards >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Shuddha >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> > _________________________________________ >>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >>>> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:44:33 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:44:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811092121r21ad1265u3670588dcfe98020@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100114p2384ebia3f04590afffe6a4@mail.gmail.com> And why shouldnt be ASIT be thrown out of this group. On 11/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > making unsubstianted allegetions is cheap mudslinging specialised by the > nazi party and goebbles that is how the hindu fascists spread roumers about > religeous minorities and organise mediaval progroms rape mureder loot etc > jingoistic slapstic natinalism leads to fascism a person who takes a > shameless hindu fascist line and not ashamed of himself should not be taken > seriously one should not waste their time in arguing with mediaval communal > fascists > asit > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> Dear Pawan, >> >> Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off? >> Please >> include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date >> and >> time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring >> to >> their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used strong >> language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support >> right-wing >> Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to >> *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According >> to >> you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I >> write, >> as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has >> recourse to *facts* in this case. >> >> This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our >> writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new >> terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a >> matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence >> that, >> unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against >> people, I am far more circumspect about what I write. >> >> So please, tell me where I have said this about you. >> >> regards >> Aarti >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > >wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. >> The >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> > >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> Aditya >> > , >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> > >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing >> but >> > figment of his own imagination. >> > >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> Shivam >> > and Arti have to be. >> > >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > > >> > > Dear All, >> > > >> > > >> > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, >> > and >> > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> Unfortunately >> > it >> > > is not without precedent. >> > > >> > > >> > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >> > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> > detailed >> > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> > habitually >> > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> desires >> > to >> > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon >> > allies >> > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> > > university. >> > > >> > > >> > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> list, >> > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated >> > with >> > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> > > >> > > >> > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> insinuations >> > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >> > Kaul) >> > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >> the >> > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >> so >> > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters' >> > and >> > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position >> > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> account >> > for >> > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> > 'writers' >> > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> agent, >> > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when >> > the >> > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> > propoganda >> > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> > > >> > > >> > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> being >> > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> local >> > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >> hand' >> > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> > politicians >> > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is >> > the >> > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> reality >> > and >> > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >> > fails >> > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> > > >> > > >> > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on >> to >> > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> keeps, >> > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> Kashmir' >> > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for >> > their >> > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> these >> > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >> > doing >> > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> beholden >> > to. >> > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to >> the >> > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >> own >> > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >> agree >> > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> > > >> > > >> > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >> > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >> > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has >> > been >> > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >> of >> > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> > > 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> > > >> > > >> > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >> > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> > > either. >> > > >> > > >> > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we >> > are >> > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >> > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to >> > take >> > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> accounts >> > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> think >> > that >> > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at >> > such >> > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >> hack >> > who >> > > writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings >> > from >> > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> paid >> > by >> > > the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> > payments >> > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> > either. >> > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >> the >> > > Reader List either. >> > > >> > > >> > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the >> > Sarai >> > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> > professional >> > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially >> as >> > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to >> > ignore >> > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown >> in >> > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then >> we >> > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >> > deserves >> > > to be ignored or overlooked. >> > > >> > > >> > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> with >> > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, >> so >> > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow >> > each >> > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> capitalized >> > for >> > > reasons of emphasis (mine). >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------------------- >> > > >> > > 1. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > > >> > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Pawan Durani) >> > > >> > > >> > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> COUNTRY >> > , >> > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case >> are >> > > being followed more closely. >> > > >> > > >> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> links >> > > >> > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> > > soon..." >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> > > >> > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by a >> > > foreign country' >> > > >> > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> > > ascertained' >> > > >> > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> > > >> > > >> > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how >> he >> > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> stand >> > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> character >> > and >> > > reputation of people in a public forum. >> > > >> > > >> > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >> > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count >> as >> > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> > > >> > > >> > > 2. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > > >> > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Pawan Durani) >> > > >> > > >> > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> JOB >> > > FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List >> on >> > any >> > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to >> > know >> > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >> List >> > is a >> > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate >> > this, >> > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >> do, >> > or >> > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. >> In >> > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >> > charge, >> > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> list, >> > or >> > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> > > >> > > >> > > 3. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from >> > > Kashmir >> > > >> > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Pawan Durani) >> > > >> > > >> > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> > UNLIKE >> > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support >> > their >> > > >> > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> > reading >> > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> because >> > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> > immediately >> > > before this still hold. >> > > >> > > >> > > 4. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from >> > > Kashmir >> > > >> > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Pawan Durani) >> > > >> > > >> > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> also >> > IT >> > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> way >> > he >> > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> > > >> > > >> > > 5. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from >> > > Kashmir >> > > >> > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Pawan Durani) >> > > >> > > >> > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we >> > > would continue to counter their agenda..." >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> list >> > of >> > > my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here >> that >> > I >> > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >> this >> > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be >> > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> > > >> > > >> > > 6. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' >> > > status >> > > >> > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Pawan Durani) >> > > >> > > >> > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> > mean." >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> > "Chinese >> > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang >> > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for >> > > Chinese cuisine? >> > > >> > > >> > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> referring >> > to >> > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically >> > those >> > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> > government >> > > of the Peoples Republic of China. >> > > >> > > >> > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> would >> > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics >> of >> > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government >> of >> > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >> > record >> > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government >> of >> > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >> of >> > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> > > >> > > >> > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >> > > >> > > >> > > 7. >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' >> > > status >> > > >> > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> > > >> > > >> > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> > > TONE..." >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> that >> > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >> the >> > > behest of their masters. >> > > >> > > >> > > ----------------- >> > > >> > > >> > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> > > >> > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> > > >> > > >> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> > > >> > > >> > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> > > >> > > >> > > MY COMMENT: None >> > > >> > > __________________________ >> > > >> > > >> > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the >> > date >> > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >> for >> > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> scurrilous >> > > postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> > > >> > > >> > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, >> if >> > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the >> list >> > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> immediate >> > > effect. >> > > >> > > >> > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> favour >> > of >> > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >> > half) >> > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> > serious >> > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> rubbish >> > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >> > grounds >> > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> benefit >> > of >> > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when >> I >> > do >> > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >> need >> > a >> > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj >> > Kaul >> > > and their allies. >> > > >> > > >> > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they >> > can >> > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> conjecture. >> > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments >> > and >> > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal >> > lives >> > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >> > poison >> > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >> have >> > to >> > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> > > >> > > >> > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> foreign >> > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I >> am >> > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests >> > that I >> > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement >> > about >> > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >> > settle >> > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> proves >> > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The >> > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> power' >> > in >> > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> > > >> > > >> > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and >> > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >> > grounds >> > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the >> > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> person >> > or >> > > persons with the freedom of expression. >> > > >> > > >> > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. >> > > >> > > >> > > regards >> > > >> > > >> > > Shuddha >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:47:19 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:47:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100114p2384ebia3f04590afffe6a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811092121r21ad1265u3670588dcfe98020@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100114p2384ebia3f04590afffe6a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: fascism at full play tomorrow they will ask us not to breathe back to mediaval barbarism asit On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And why shouldnt be ASIT be thrown out of this group. > > > On 11/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: >> >> making unsubstianted allegetions is cheap mudslinging specialised by the >> nazi party and goebbles that is how the hindu fascists spread roumers about >> religeous minorities and organise mediaval progroms rape mureder loot etc >> jingoistic slapstic natinalism leads to fascism a person who takes a >> shameless hindu fascist line and not ashamed of himself should not be taken >> seriously one should not waste their time in arguing with mediaval communal >> fascists >> asit >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >>> Dear Pawan, >>> >>> Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off? >>> Please >>> include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date >>> and >>> time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring >>> to >>> their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used >>> strong >>> language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support >>> right-wing >>> Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to >>> *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According >>> to >>> you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I >>> write, >>> as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has >>> recourse to *facts* in this case. >>> >>> This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our >>> writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new >>> terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a >>> matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence >>> that, >>> unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against >>> people, I am far more circumspect about what I write. >>> >>> So please, tell me where I have said this about you. >>> >>> regards >>> Aarti >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani >> >wrote: >>> >>> > Dear All, >>> > >>> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. >>> The >>> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>> > >>> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >>> Aditya >>> > , >>> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>> > >>> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing >>> but >>> > figment of his own imagination. >>> > >>> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >>> Shivam >>> > and Arti have to be. >>> > >>> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Dear All, >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >>> list, >>> > and >>> > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>> Unfortunately >>> > it >>> > > is not without precedent. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >>> > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >>> > detailed >>> > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >>> > habitually >>> > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >>> desires >>> > to >>> > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon >>> > allies >>> > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >>> > > university. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >>> list, >>> > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>> associated >>> > with >>> > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>> insinuations >>> > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >>> > Kaul) >>> > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >>> the >>> > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >>> so >>> > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>> masters' >>> > and >>> > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >>> > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >>> > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position >>> > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >>> account >>> > for >>> > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >>> > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >>> > 'writers' >>> > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >>> agent, >>> > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >>> when >>> > the >>> > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >>> > propoganda >>> > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >>> being >>> > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >>> local >>> > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >>> hand' >>> > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >>> > politicians >>> > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >>> is >>> > the >>> > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >>> reality >>> > and >>> > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >>> > fails >>> > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on >>> to >>> > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >>> keeps, >>> > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >>> Kashmir' >>> > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >>> for >>> > their >>> > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >>> these >>> > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >>> > doing >>> > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>> beholden >>> > to. >>> > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to >>> the >>> > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >>> own >>> > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >>> agree >>> > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >>> > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >>> > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has >>> > been >>> > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >>> of >>> > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >>> > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >>> > > 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >>> > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >>> > > either. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >>> we >>> > are >>> > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >>> > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to >>> > take >>> > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >>> accounts >>> > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >>> think >>> > that >>> > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >>> at >>> > such >>> > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >>> hack >>> > who >>> > > writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings >>> > from >>> > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >>> paid >>> > by >>> > > the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >>> > payments >>> > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >>> > either. >>> > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >>> the >>> > > Reader List either. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the >>> > Sarai >>> > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >>> > professional >>> > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially >>> as >>> > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to >>> > ignore >>> > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >>> thrown in >>> > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >>> then we >>> > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >>> > deserves >>> > > to be ignored or overlooked. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >>> with >>> > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >>> taken, so >>> > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >>> follow >>> > each >>> > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>> capitalized >>> > for >>> > > reasons of emphasis (mine). >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -------------------------- >>> > > >>> > > 1. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> > > >>> > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >>> COUNTRY >>> > , >>> > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>> > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case >>> are >>> > > being followed more closely. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >>> links >>> > > >>> > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >>> > > soon..." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>> > > >>> > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >>> > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >>> by a >>> > > foreign country' >>> > > >>> > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >>> > > ascertained' >>> > > >>> > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >>> how he >>> > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >>> stand >>> > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>> character >>> > and >>> > > reputation of people in a public forum. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >>> > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >>> count as >>> > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > 2. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> > > >>> > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >>> JOB >>> > > FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >>> > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List >>> on >>> > any >>> > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to >>> > know >>> > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >>> List >>> > is a >>> > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>> substantiate >>> > this, >>> > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >>> do, >>> > or >>> > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >>> this. In >>> > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >>> > charge, >>> > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >>> list, >>> > or >>> > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > 3. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>> from >>> > > Kashmir >>> > > >>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >>> > UNLIKE >>> > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>> support >>> > their >>> > > >>> > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >>> > reading >>> > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >>> because >>> > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >>> > immediately >>> > > before this still hold. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > 4. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>> from >>> > > Kashmir >>> > > >>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >>> also >>> > IT >>> > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >>> way >>> > he >>> > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > 5. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>> from >>> > > Kashmir >>> > > >>> > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >>> we >>> > > would continue to counter their agenda..." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >>> > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >>> list >>> > of >>> > > my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here >>> that >>> > I >>> > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >>> this >>> > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >>> be >>> > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > 6. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> persons' >>> > > status >>> > > >>> > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >>> > mean." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >>> > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >>> > "Chinese >>> > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>> Kuomintang >>> > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >>> for >>> > > Chinese cuisine? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>> referring >>> > to >>> > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically >>> > those >>> > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> > government >>> > > of the Peoples Republic of China. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >>> would >>> > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>> critics of >>> > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> government of >>> > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >>> > record >>> > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government >>> of >>> > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >>> of >>> > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > 7. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> persons' >>> > > status >>> > > >>> > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >>> > > TONE..." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >>> that >>> > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >>> the >>> > > behest of their masters. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ----------------- >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>> > > >>> > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > MY COMMENT: None >>> > > >>> > > __________________________ >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >>> the >>> > date >>> > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >>> for >>> > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>> scurrilous >>> > > postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, >>> if >>> > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >>> > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the >>> list >>> > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >>> immediate >>> > > effect. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >>> favour >>> > of >>> > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >>> > half) >>> > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >>> > serious >>> > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >>> rubbish >>> > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >>> > grounds >>> > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >>> benefit >>> > of >>> > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >>> when I >>> > do >>> > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >>> need >>> > a >>> > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >>> Raj >>> > Kaul >>> > > and their allies. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >>> they >>> > can >>> > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>> conjecture. >>> > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>> arguments >>> > and >>> > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal >>> > lives >>> > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >>> > poison >>> > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >>> have >>> > to >>> > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >>> foreign >>> > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >>> I am >>> > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests >>> > that I >>> > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement >>> > about >>> > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >>> > settle >>> > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >>> proves >>> > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >>> The >>> > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >>> > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >>> power' >>> > in >>> > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >>> > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >>> and >>> > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >>> > grounds >>> > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >>> the >>> > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >>> person >>> > or >>> > > persons with the freedom of expression. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>> conceal. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > regards >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Shuddha >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:48:52 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:48:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 In-Reply-To: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811100118u322f0603pcaf64b2c3afa7321@mail.gmail.com> Ah! Dear Rajendra Bhat! Are you too cognitionally challenged like our friend Pawan? The list is not gagging the "voice of dissent" as you so charmingly characterise the hindu fascists in our midst. The list is merely attempting to hold people accountable for the lies they spread about other members. If you spent a little time reading Shuddha's mail, you will notice that he does not raise the issue of anyone's politics or ideaology anywhere. He is only refers to statements which allege that some list members have received *payment* for what they write. Surely even you would agree that this comes under every definition of libel and if indeed Pawan and Aditya are in possession of information regarding Shuddha's paychecks, it should not be any trouble to furnish this list with proof. See, I could demand that you be removed from the list for calling me a terror supporter. Am I? No. because it your (erroneous) *opinion* of me. In return I could say you are a bigoted fascist, but because I am a well-brought up young woman I won't. Regardless, I will have to suffer your presence as you are forced to suffer mine. However Pawan and Aditya have not simply abused, sworn at and *spat at* people on this list, they have made serious libellous allegations against them. Do you not think they should rpove this? Do you think it is ok to make baseless charges against people and damage their credibility? No it is not. So, prove what you say or leave. warm regards as always Aarti On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Oh, now it is" we " versus they. ? > > I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more > citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its > citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in > kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to > seek justice.? > > Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again and > again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves is > that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is > functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and other > terror supporters on the list. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 > From: "Aarti Sethi" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: sarai list , we wi , > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Message-ID: > <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but > bleats to offer. > > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as > well. > > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. > > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. > > Warm regards > (as it seems for the last time) > > Aarti > > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any > private communications with you at all. > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > Lastly, > > > > My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology > which > > I can understand. > > > > The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a > > right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any > > member.. > > So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] > > > > Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. > > > > If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the > > judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double > > the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in > my > > ideology. > > > > So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand > > that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in > > either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i > am > > really a hurdle. > > > > But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. > > > > regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Kirdar, > > > > > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes > > him > > > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > > > group. > > > > > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > > > > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > > > > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > > > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have > > one. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Pawan > > >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > > >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > > >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > > >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > > >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > > >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > > >> > > >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > > >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > > >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > > >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > > >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > > >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > > >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > > >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy > > >> about the plight of KPs. > > >> > > >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > > >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > > >> is ticking. > > >> > > >> Kirdar > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > Dear Kirdar, > > >> > > > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they > come > > >> from . > > >> > > > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters > of > > >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless > he > > >> > considers himself one. > > >> > > > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on > > >> Geelani > > >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write > > >> that > > >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > > >> investigated.What > > >> > makes the two different ? > > >> > > > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of > > certain > > >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens > in > > >> all > > >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he > > co > > >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members > and > > >> non > > >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > > >> > > > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates > just > > >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > > >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on > this > > >> list > > >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate > > >> ..... > > >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > > >> himself > > >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... > > >> > > > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena > , > > >> Panun > > >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything > wrong > > >> with > > >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > > >> However i > > >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of > > the > > >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its > member > > >> as we > > >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > > advise. > > >> But > > >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of > > >> these. > > >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all > > >> odds. > > >> > > > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > > >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri > pandits > > >> world > > >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to > scuttle > > >> the > > >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > > >> > > > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > > Chinese > > >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why > does > > it > > >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself > a > > >> > supporter of that ? > > >> > > > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom > is > > >> to > > >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > > >> undergone > > >> > Exodus and genocide. > > >> > > > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > > >> myself > > >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and > > >> what > > >> > not to word. > > >> > > > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not > > challenge > > >> a > > >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha > and > > >> > others be removed. > > >> > > > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so > > >> they do > > >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > > >> > > > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > > >> > > > >> > Regards > > >> > > > >> > Pawan Durani > > >> > > > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Dear Pawan > > >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > > >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of > > foreign > > >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support > such > > >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I > > think > > >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half > that > > >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you > are > > >> >> gone. > > >> >> > > >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > > >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > > >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > > >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > > >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. > Maybe > > >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > > >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > > >> >> > > >> >> Kirdar > > >> >> > > >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > > pawan.durani at gmail.com > > >> > > > >> >> wrote: > > >> >> > Dear All, > > >> >> > > > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > > >> exposed. > > >> >> > The > > >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me > , > > >> >> > Aditya , > > >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are > > >> nothing > > >> >> > but > > >> >> > figment of his own imagination. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder > , > > >> >> > Shivam > > >> >> > and Arti have to be. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Pawan > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Dear All, > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on > our > > >> list, > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > > >> >> >> Unfortunately it > > >> >> >> is not without precedent. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun > Kashmir' > > >> and > > >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced > > with > > >> >> >> detailed > > >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their > 'case', > > >> >> >> habitually > > >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > > >> >> >> desires to > > >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena > > goon > > >> >> >> allies > > >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at > the > > >> >> >> university. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Of late,there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in > > this > > >> >> >> list, > > >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > > >> associated > > >> >> >> with > > >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > > >> >> >> insinuations > > >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya > > Raj > > >> >> >> Kaul) > > >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK > gospel > > or > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be > > doing > > >> so > > >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > > >> masters' > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > > ethical > > >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of > these > > >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > > >> position > > >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > > >> account > > >> >> >> for > > >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of > > being > > >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. > So, > > >> >> >> 'writers' > > >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid > > >> agent, > > >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was > made > > >> when > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > > >> >> >> propoganda > > >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they > > are > > >> >> >> being > > >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or > their > > >> >> >> local > > >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the > > foreign > > >> >> >> hand' > > >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > > >> >> >> politicians > > >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. > > It > > >> is > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > > >> >> >> reality and > > >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide > > but > > >> >> >> fails > > >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia > Jabbar > > >> on > > >> >> >> to > > >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. > Durani > > >> >> >> keeps, > > >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > > >> >> >> Kashmir' > > >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to > write > > >> for > > >> >> >> their > > >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one > that > > >> >> >> these > > >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem > to > > be > > >> >> >> doing > > >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > > >> beholden > > >> >> >> to. > > >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers > admitting > > >> to > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as > > their > > >> own > > >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who > > doesn't > > >> >> >> agree > > >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions > > >> when > > >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard > > >> line > > >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, > Aarti > > >> has > > >> >> >> been > > >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > > accused > > >> of > > >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > > specific > > >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been > > called > > >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take > > >> this > > >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > > casually > > >> >> >> either. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing > > what > > >> we > > >> >> >> are > > >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or > 'terrorist' > > is > > >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am > willing > > >> to > > >> >> >> take > > >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > > >> >> >> accounts > > >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani > should > > >> think > > >> >> >> that > > >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for > > purchase > > >> at > > >> >> >> such > > >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a > hired > > >> hack > > >> >> >> who > > >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and > > >> leavings > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No > one > > is > > >> >> >> paid by > > >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. > No > > >> >> >> payments > > >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of > writing > > >> >> >> either. > > >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing > > on > > >> the > > >> >> >> Reader List either. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, > to > > >> the > > >> >> >> Sarai > > >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > > >> >> >> professional > > >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > > >> especially > > >> >> >> as > > >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been > willing > > >> to > > >> >> >> ignore > > >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > > >> thrown > > >> >> >> in > > >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two > weeks, > > >> then > > >> >> >> we > > >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not > > think > > >> >> >> deserves > > >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each > > quote > > >> >> >> with > > >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > > >> taken, > > >> >> >> so > > >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > > >> follow > > >> >> >> each > > >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > > >> capitalized > > >> >> >> for > > >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> -------------------------- > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 1. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > > >> >> >> COUNTRY , > > >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > > >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment > > >> case > > >> >> >> are > > >> >> >> being followed more closely. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and > their > > >> links > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come > > out > > >> >> >> soon..." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and > the > > >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort > > backed > > >> by > > >> >> >> a > > >> >> >> foreign country' > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are > being > > >> >> >> ascertained' > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details > of > > >> how > > >> >> >> he > > >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, > or > > >> >> >> stand > > >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > > >> character > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to > > >> know > > >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > > >> count > > >> >> >> as > > >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 2. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL > > TIME > > >> >> >> JOB > > >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > > neither > > >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader > > >> List > > >> >> >> on any > > >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I > want > > >> to > > >> >> >> know > > >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the > Reader > > >> List > > >> >> >> is a > > >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > > >> substantiate > > >> >> >> this, > > >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say > what > > I > > >> >> >> do, or > > >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for > > >> this. > > >> >> >> In > > >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate > > this > > >> >> >> charge, > > >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from > this > > >> list, > > >> >> >> or > > >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 3. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID > > JOB, > > >> >> >> UNLIKE > > >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > > >> support > > >> >> >> their > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, > > from > > >> >> >> reading > > >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > > >> >> >> because > > >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > > >> >> >> immediately > > >> >> >> before this still hold. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 4. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, > > and > > >> >> >> also IT > > >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in > > the > > >> >> >> way he > > >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 5. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS > > and > > >> we > > >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to > me > > >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani > have > > a > > >> >> >> list of > > >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making > > here > > >> >> >> that I > > >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not > have > > >> this > > >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he > > should > > >> be > > >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 6. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > > >> >> >> persons' > > >> >> >> status > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know > what > > I > > >> >> >> mean." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree > > with > > >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What > does > > >> >> >> "Chinese > > >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > > >> Kuomintang > > >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural > preference > > >> for > > >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > > >> >> >> referring to > > >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > > >> specifically > > >> >> >> those > > >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > > >> >> >> government > > >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people > he > > >> >> >> would > > >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > > >> critics > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > > >> government > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone > > on > > >> >> >> record > > >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > > >> government > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > > Government > > >> of > > >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > > >> baseless. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 7. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > > >> >> >> persons' > > >> >> >> status > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > > MASTERS > > >> >> >> TONE..." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's > > insinuation > > >> >> >> that > > >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act > > at > > >> the > > >> >> >> behest of their masters. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> ----------------- > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> __________________________ > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day > (from > > >> the > > >> >> >> date > > >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable > > proof > > >> >> >> for > > >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > > >> >> >> scurrilous > > >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one > day. > > >> Or, > > >> >> >> if > > >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > > and > > >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request > > the > > >> >> >> list > > >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > > >> >> >> immediate > > >> >> >> effect. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been > in > > >> >> >> favour of > > >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year > and > > a > > >> >> >> half) > > >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies > (in > > >> >> >> serious > > >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > > >> >> >> rubbish > > >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his > expulsion > > on > > >> >> >> grounds > > >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > > >> benefit > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' > especially > > >> when > > >> >> >> I do > > >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in > > anger > > >> >> >> need a > > >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, > Aditya > > >> Raj > > >> >> >> Kaul > > >> >> >> and their allies. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm > that > > >> they > > >> >> >> can > > >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > > >> >> >> conjecture. > > >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > > >> arguments > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > > >> personal > > >> >> >> lives > > >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, > > spread > > >> >> >> poison > > >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. > There > > >> have > > >> >> >> to > > >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by > a > > >> >> >> foreign > > >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I > am, > > or > > >> I > > >> >> >> am > > >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > > >> suggests > > >> >> >> that I > > >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > > >> statement > > >> >> >> about > > >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way > > to > > >> >> >> settle > > >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the > allegation > > >> >> >> proves > > >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false > witness. > > >> The > > >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very > serious > > >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign > > >> power' > > >> >> >> in > > >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. > > Such > > >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is > > libel > > >> and > > >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > > the > > >> >> >> grounds > > >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself > and > > >> the > > >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame > a > > >> >> >> person or > > >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > > >> conceal. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> regards > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Shuddha > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> >> > List archive: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > ******************************************** > > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up > now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:58:41 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:58:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811092121r21ad1265u3670588dcfe98020@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100114p2384ebia3f04590afffe6a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811100128h4abc959fif46cc217dcebb35b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, If you believe Shuddha is guilty of defamation, then please furnish evidence of his statements, like he has done of yours. Name-calling, mud-slinging etc, deplorable though it might be, is not defamation. Expressing your opinion of someone's politics, ideaology, orientation etc is everyone's right, including yours. And you cannot say that this right of yours has not been respected. It has, beyond limits that would have been considered acceptable in any other forum or space. Asit is not defaming you. He is simply expressing his opinion of your writing. As you have done several times in the past about anything I or Inder or Shuddha or Shivam or several other people here, say or write. Again, this is a question of a specific and dangerous allegation you have made regarding people getting payment from other sources. So, do you have any proof? If yes, then furnish it. If not, then you are guity of libel and defamation. Unfortunately Pawan, it is as simple as that. And if you believe similar charges have been made against you, then furnish proof of that. regards Aarti On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Asit asitreds wrote: > fascism at full play tomorrow they will ask us not to breathe back to > mediaval barbarism > asit > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> And why shouldnt be ASIT be thrown out of this group. >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: >>> >>> making unsubstianted allegetions is cheap mudslinging specialised by the >>> nazi party and goebbles that is how the hindu fascists spread roumers about >>> religeous minorities and organise mediaval progroms rape mureder loot etc >>> jingoistic slapstic natinalism leads to fascism a person who takes a >>> shameless hindu fascist line and not ashamed of himself should not be taken >>> seriously one should not waste their time in arguing with mediaval communal >>> fascists >>> asit >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Pawan, >>>> >>>> Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off? >>>> Please >>>> include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date >>>> and >>>> time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring >>>> to >>>> their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used >>>> strong >>>> language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support >>>> right-wing >>>> Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to >>>> *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". >>>> According to >>>> you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I >>>> write, >>>> as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has >>>> recourse to *facts* in this case. >>>> >>>> This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our >>>> writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole >>>> new >>>> terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a >>>> matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence >>>> that, >>>> unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against >>>> people, I am far more circumspect about what I write. >>>> >>>> So please, tell me where I have said this about you. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> Aarti >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani >>> >wrote: >>>> >>>> > Dear All, >>>> > >>>> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>>> exposed. The >>>> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>>> > >>>> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >>>> Aditya >>>> > , >>>> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>>> > >>>> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing >>>> but >>>> > figment of his own imagination. >>>> > >>>> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >>>> Shivam >>>> > and Arti have to be. >>>> > >>>> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>>> > >>>> > Pawan >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Dear All, >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >>>> list, >>>> > and >>>> > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>>> Unfortunately >>>> > it >>>> > > is not without precedent. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >>>> and >>>> > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >>>> > detailed >>>> > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >>>> > habitually >>>> > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >>>> desires >>>> > to >>>> > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon >>>> > allies >>>> > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >>>> > > university. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >>>> list, >>>> > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>>> associated >>>> > with >>>> > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>>> insinuations >>>> > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >>>> > Kaul) >>>> > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >>>> the >>>> > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >>>> so >>>> > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>>> masters' >>>> > and >>>> > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >>>> > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >>>> > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >>>> position >>>> > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >>>> account >>>> > for >>>> > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >>>> > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >>>> > 'writers' >>>> > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >>>> agent, >>>> > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >>>> when >>>> > the >>>> > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >>>> > propoganda >>>> > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >>>> being >>>> > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >>>> local >>>> > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >>>> hand' >>>> > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >>>> > politicians >>>> > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >>>> is >>>> > the >>>> > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >>>> reality >>>> > and >>>> > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >>>> > fails >>>> > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar >>>> on to >>>> > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >>>> keeps, >>>> > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >>>> Kashmir' >>>> > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >>>> for >>>> > their >>>> > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >>>> these >>>> > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >>>> > doing >>>> > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>>> beholden >>>> > to. >>>> > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting >>>> to the >>>> > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >>>> own >>>> > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >>>> agree >>>> > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >>>> when >>>> > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >>>> line >>>> > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >>>> has >>>> > been >>>> > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >>>> of >>>> > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >>>> > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >>>> > > 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >>>> this >>>> > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >>>> > > either. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >>>> we >>>> > are >>>> > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >>>> > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing >>>> to >>>> > take >>>> > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >>>> accounts >>>> > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >>>> think >>>> > that >>>> > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >>>> at >>>> > such >>>> > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >>>> hack >>>> > who >>>> > > writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >>>> leavings >>>> > from >>>> > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >>>> paid >>>> > by >>>> > > the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >>>> > payments >>>> > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >>>> > either. >>>> > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >>>> the >>>> > > Reader List either. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >>>> the >>>> > Sarai >>>> > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >>>> > professional >>>> > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >>>> especially as >>>> > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing >>>> to >>>> > ignore >>>> > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >>>> thrown in >>>> > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >>>> then we >>>> > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >>>> > deserves >>>> > > to be ignored or overlooked. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >>>> with >>>> > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >>>> taken, so >>>> > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >>>> follow >>>> > each >>>> > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>>> capitalized >>>> > for >>>> > > reasons of emphasis (mine). >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > -------------------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > 1. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>> > > >>>> > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >>>> COUNTRY >>>> > , >>>> > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>>> > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >>>> case are >>>> > > being followed more closely. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >>>> links >>>> > > >>>> > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >>>> > > soon..." >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>>> > > >>>> > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >>>> > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >>>> by a >>>> > > foreign country' >>>> > > >>>> > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >>>> > > ascertained' >>>> > > >>>> > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >>>> how he >>>> > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >>>> stand >>>> > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>>> character >>>> > and >>>> > > reputation of people in a public forum. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >>>> know >>>> > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >>>> count as >>>> > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > 2. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>> > > >>>> > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >>>> JOB >>>> > > FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >>>> > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >>>> List on >>>> > any >>>> > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want >>>> to >>>> > know >>>> > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >>>> List >>>> > is a >>>> > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>>> substantiate >>>> > this, >>>> > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >>>> do, >>>> > or >>>> > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >>>> this. In >>>> > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >>>> > charge, >>>> > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >>>> list, >>>> > or >>>> > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > 3. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>>> from >>>> > > Kashmir >>>> > > >>>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >>>> > UNLIKE >>>> > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>>> support >>>> > their >>>> > > >>>> > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >>>> > reading >>>> > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >>>> because >>>> > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >>>> > immediately >>>> > > before this still hold. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > 4. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>>> from >>>> > > Kashmir >>>> > > >>>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >>>> also >>>> > IT >>>> > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >>>> way >>>> > he >>>> > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > 5. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>>> from >>>> > > Kashmir >>>> > > >>>> > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >>>> we >>>> > > would continue to counter their agenda..." >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >>>> > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >>>> list >>>> > of >>>> > > my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here >>>> that >>>> > I >>>> > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >>>> this >>>> > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >>>> be >>>> > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > 6. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>>> persons' >>>> > > status >>>> > > >>>> > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Pawan Durani) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >>>> > mean." >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >>>> > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >>>> > "Chinese >>>> > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>>> Kuomintang >>>> > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >>>> for >>>> > > Chinese cuisine? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>>> referring >>>> > to >>>> > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >>>> specifically >>>> > those >>>> > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >>>> > government >>>> > > of the Peoples Republic of China. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >>>> would >>>> > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>>> critics of >>>> > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>>> government of >>>> > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >>>> > record >>>> > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the >>>> government of >>>> > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >>>> of >>>> > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >>>> baseless. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > 7. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>>> persons' >>>> > > status >>>> > > >>>> > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >>>> > > TONE..." >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >>>> that >>>> > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >>>> the >>>> > > behest of their masters. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>>> > > >>>> > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > MY COMMENT: None >>>> > > >>>> > > __________________________ >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >>>> the >>>> > date >>>> > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >>>> for >>>> > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>>> scurrilous >>>> > > postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >>>> Or, if >>>> > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >>>> > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the >>>> list >>>> > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >>>> immediate >>>> > > effect. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >>>> favour >>>> > of >>>> > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >>>> > half) >>>> > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >>>> > serious >>>> > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >>>> rubbish >>>> > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >>>> > grounds >>>> > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >>>> benefit >>>> > of >>>> > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >>>> when I >>>> > do >>>> > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >>>> need >>>> > a >>>> > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >>>> Raj >>>> > Kaul >>>> > > and their allies. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >>>> they >>>> > can >>>> > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>>> conjecture. >>>> > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>>> arguments >>>> > and >>>> > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >>>> personal >>>> > lives >>>> > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >>>> > poison >>>> > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >>>> have >>>> > to >>>> > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >>>> foreign >>>> > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >>>> I am >>>> > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >>>> suggests >>>> > that I >>>> > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >>>> statement >>>> > about >>>> > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >>>> > settle >>>> > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >>>> proves >>>> > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >>>> The >>>> > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >>>> > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >>>> power' >>>> > in >>>> > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >>>> > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >>>> and >>>> > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >>>> > grounds >>>> > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >>>> the >>>> > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >>>> person >>>> > or >>>> > > persons with the freedom of expression. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>>> conceal. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > regards >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Shuddha >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 14:44:31 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:44:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 102 , dear "we" where are my responses.? References: Message-ID: <525421.77343.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear "we"  where are my responses to the ongoing battle of "we " versus they? Is this really a forum with 1400 members where only three or four members post their fascist leftist autocratic thoughts, if confronted would love to expel.?  Well on with thinking caps, we as humans do make mistakes, and the greatness is in making amends to the mistakes, if gagging is the solution then the list will be extinct soon with only left thoughts and praise of mutual admiration society in view. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:34:43 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 102 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:33:36 +0530 From: "Aarti Sethi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: sarai list , we wi ,     Shuddhabrata Sengupta Message-ID:     <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things I am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said about you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh? On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > lal Salaam,, > > Arti, > > Are u a moderator ? > > pawan > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter >> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our >> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but >> bleats to offer. >> >> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If >> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it >> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate >> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not >> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as >> well. >> >> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The >> game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put >> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the >> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where >> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. >> >> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations >> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself >> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather >> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. >> >> Warm regards >> (as it seems for the last time) >> >> Aarti >> >> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any >> private communications with you at all. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Lastly, >>> >>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >>> which >>> I can understand. >>> >>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a >>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >>> member. >>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] >>> >>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >>> >>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the >>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double >>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in >>> my >>> ideology. >>> >>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand >>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in >>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i >>> am >>> really a hurdle. >>> >>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Pawan Durani >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> > >>> > Kirdar, >>> > >>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes >>> him >>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >>> > >>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this >>> > group. >>> > >>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >>> > >>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >>> > >>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have >>> one. >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> >=0A>>> > >>> >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear Pawan >>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >>> >> >>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >>> >> about the plight of KPs. >>> >> >>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >>> >> is ticking. >>> >> >>> >> Kirdar >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < >>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > Dear Kirdar, >>> >> > >>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they >>> come >>> >> from . >>> >> > >>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters >>> of >>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless >>> he >>> >> > considers himself one. >>> >> > >>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >>> >> Geelani >>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >>> >> that >>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >>> >> investigated.What >>> >> > makes the two different ? >>> >> > >>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >>> certain >>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens >>> in >>> >> all >>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he >>> co >>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members >>> and >>> >> non >>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >>> >> > >>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >>> just >>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >>> this >>> >> list >>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >>> >> ..... >>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >>> >> himself >>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >>> >> > >>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena >>> , >>> >> Panun >>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >>> wrong >>> >> with >>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >>> >> However i >>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of >>> the >>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >>> member >>> >> as we >>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >>> advise. >>> >> But >>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >>> >> these. >>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >>> >> odds. >>> >> > >>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >>> pandits >>> >> world >>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >>> scuttle >>> >> the >>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >>> >> > >>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >>> Chinese >>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why >>> does it >>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself >>> a >>> >> > supporter of that ? >>> >> > >>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom >>> is >>> >> to >>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >>> >> undergone >>> >> > Exodus and genocide. >>> >> > >>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >>> >> myself >>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >>> >> what >>> >> > not to word. >>> >> > >>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >>> challenge >>> >> a >>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >>> and >>> >> > others be removed. >>> >> > >>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >>> >> they do >>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >>> >> > >>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha. >>> >> > >>> >> > Regards >>> >> > >>> >> > Pawan Durani >>> >> > >>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Dear Pawan >>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >>> foreign >>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >>> such >>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >>> think >>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >>> that >>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you >>> are >>> >> >> gone. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >>> Maybe >>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Kirdar >>> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >>> pawan.durani at gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >> > Dear All, >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>> >> exposed. >>> >> >> > The >>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me >>> , >>> >> >> > Aditya , >>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >>> >> nothing >>> >> >> > but >>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder >>> , >>> >> >> > Shivam >>> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Pawan >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>  Dear All, >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on >>> our >>> >> list, >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >>> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun >>> Kashmir' >>> >> and >>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >>> with >>> >> >> >> detailed >>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their >>> 'case', >>> >> >> >> habitually >>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >>> >> >> >> desires to >>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >>>  goon >>> >> >> >> allies >>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at >>> the >>> >> >> >> university. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >>> this >>> >> >> >> list, >>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>> >> associated >>> >> >> >> with >>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>> >> >> >> insinuations >>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya >>> Raj >>> >> >> >> Kaul) >>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK >>> gospel or >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >>> doing >>> >> so >>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>> >> masters' >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >>> ethical >>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >>> these >>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >>> >> position >>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >>> >> account >>> >> >> >> for >>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >>> being >>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >>> So, >>> >> >> >> 'writers' >>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >>> >> agent, >>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >>> made >>> >> when >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >>> >> >> >> propoganda >>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they >>> are >>> >> >> >> being >>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >>> their >>> >> >> >> local >>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >>> foreign >>> >> >> >> hand' >>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >>> >> >> >> politicians >>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. >>> It >>> >> is >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >>> >> >> >> reality and >>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide >>> but >>> >> >> >> fails >>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >>> Jabbar >>> >> on >>> >> >> >> to >>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >>> Durani >>> >> >> >> keeps, >>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >>> >> >> >> Kashmir' >>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >>> write >>> >> for >>> >> >> >> their >>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >>> that >>> >> >> >> these >>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem >>> to be >>> >> >> >> doing >>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>> >> beholden >>> >> >> >> to. >>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >>> admitting >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >>> their >>> >> own >>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >>> doesn't >>> >> >> >> agree >>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >>> >> when >>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >>> >> line >>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, >>> Aarti >>> >> has >>> >> >> >> been >>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >>> accused >>> >> of >>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >>> specific >>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >>> called >>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >>> >> this >>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >>> casually >>> >> >> >> either. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing >>> what >>> >> we >>> >> >> >> are >>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or >>> 'terrorist' is >>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >>> willing >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> take >>> >> >> >> on this matter personally.. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >>> >> >> >> accounts >>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani >>> should >>> >> think >>> >> >> >> that >>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >>> purchase >>> >> at >>> >> >> >> such >>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >>> hired >>> >> hack >>> >> >> >> who >>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and >>> >> leavings >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No >>> one is >>> >> >> >> paid by >>> >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. >>> No >>> >> >> >> payments >>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >>> writing >>> >> >> >> either. >>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing >>> on >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> Reader List either. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, >>> to >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> Sarai >>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >>> >> >> >> professional >>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >>> >> especially >>> >> >> >> as >>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >>> willing >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> ignore >>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (andit is not that it has not been >>> >> thrown >>> >> >> >> in >>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two >>> weeks, >>> >> then >>> >> >> >> we >>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >>> think >>> >> >> >> deserves >>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >>> quote >>> >> >> >> with >>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >>> >> taken, >>> >> >> >> so >>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >>> >> follow >>> >> >> >> each >>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>> >> capitalized >>> >> >> >> for >>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------- >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 1. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >>> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >>> >> case >>> >> >> >> are >>> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and >>> their >>> >> links >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come >>> out >>> >> >> >> soon..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >>> the >>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >>> backed >>> >> by >>> >> >> >> a >>> >> >> >> foreign country' >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are >>> being >>> >> >> >> ascertained' >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details >>> of >>> >> how >>> >> >> >> he >>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, >>> or >>> >> >> >> stand >>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>> >> character >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >>> >> know >>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >>> >> count >>> >> >> >> as >>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 2. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL >>> TIME >>> >> >> >> JOB >>> >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >>> neither >>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >>> >> List >>> >> >> >> on any >>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >>> want >>> >> to >>> >> >> >> know >>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >>> Reader >>> >> List >>> >> >> >> is a >>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>> >> substantiate >>> >> >> >> this, >>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >>> what I >>> >> >> >> do, or >>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >>> >> this. >>> >> >> >> In >>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate >>> this >>> >> >> >> charge, >>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from >>> this >>> >> list, >>> >> >> >> or >>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 3. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>> Displacement >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >>> JOB, >>> >> >> >> UNLIKE >>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>> >> support >>> >> >> >> their >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >>> from >>> >> >> >> reading >>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >>> >> >> >> because >>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >>> >> >> >> immediately >>> >> >> >> before this still hold. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 4. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>> Displacement >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, >>> and >>> >> >> >> also IT >>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in >>> the >>> >> >> >> way he >>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 5. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>> Displacement >>> >> >> >> from >>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS >>> and >>> >> we >>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to >>> me >>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani >>> have a >>> >> >> >> list of >>> >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making >>> here >>> >> >> >> that I >>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >>> have >>> >> this >>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >>> should >>> >> be >>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 6. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> >> >> >> persons' >>> >> >> >> status >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >>> what I >>> >> >> >> mean." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree >>> with >>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What >>> does >>> >> >> >> "Chinese >>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>> >> Kuomintang >>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >>> preference >>> >> for >>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is >>> >> >> >> referring to >>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >>> >> specifically >>> >> >> >> those >>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> >> >> >> government >>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people >>> he >>> >> >> >> would >>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>> >> critics >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> >> government >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone >>> on >>> >> >> >> record >>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >>> >> government >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >>> Government >>> >> of >>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >>> >> baseless. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 7. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> >> >> >> persons' >>> >> >> >> status >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >>> MASTERS >>> >> >> >> TONE..." >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >>> insinuation >>> >> >> >> that >>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act >>> at >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> ----------------- >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> __________________________ >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >>> (from >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> date >>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >>> proof >>> >> >> >> for >>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>> >> >> >> scurrilous >>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one >>> day. >>> >> Or, >>> >> >> >> if >>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated >>> and >>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >>>  the >>> >> >> >> list >>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >>> >> >> >> immediate >>> >> >> >> effect. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been >>> in >>> >> >> >> favour of >>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >>> and a >>> >> >> >> half) >>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >>> (in >>> >> >> >> serious >>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >>> >> >> >> rubbish >>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his >>> expulsion on >>> >> >> >> grounds >>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >>> >> benefit >>> >> >> >> of >>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' >>> especially >>> >> when >>> >> >> >> I do >>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >>> anger >>> >> >> >> need a >>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >>> Aditya >>> >> Raj >>> >> >> >> Kaul >>> >> >> >> and their allies. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >>> that >>> >> they >>> >> >> >> can >>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>> >> >> >> conjecture. >>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>> >> arguments >>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >>> >> personal >>> >> >> >> lives >>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >>> spread >>> >> >> >> poison >>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >>> There >>> >> have >>> >> >> >> to >>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by >>> a >>> >> >> >> foreign >>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >>> am, or >>> >> I >>> >> >> >> am >>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >>> >> suggests >>> >> >> >> that I >>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >>> >> statement >>> >> >> >> about >>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way >>> to >>> >> >> >> settle >>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >>> allegation >>> >> >> >> proves >>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >>> witness. >>> >> The >>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >>> serious >>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >>> >> power' >>> >> >> >> in >>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >>> Such >>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >>> libel >>> >> and >>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on >>> the >>> >> >> >> grounds >>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >>> and >>> >> the >>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame >>> a >>> >> >> >> person or >>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>> >> conceal. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> regards >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Shuddha >>> >> >> >>=0A>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> > _________________________________________ >>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 102 ******************************************** Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From lists at shivamvij.com Mon Nov 10 15:13:24 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:13:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Book Release of Boki by Nitoo Das Message-ID: <1fd66c110811100143n58698e88n5387bfd74869c653@mail.gmail.com> THE ATTIC 36 REGAL BUILDINGS, NEW DELHI TEL: 23746050 wednesday 12th november 5.00 pm Book Release of Boki by Nitoo Das. Publishers: Virtual Artists Collective Boki, Nitoo Das' first poetry collection, plays around with given grammars, words and voices. With the skill of a ventriloquist, she gives language to several personae in her dramatic monologues and her soundscapes create a sensory world with words that slip and slide into each other. Das' painterly eye captures precise and stark visual images that make us look at the ordinary with fresh eyes. Boki--a word that means nothing in English, but in "Doiboki", the poem it's in, it stands for a shouted syllable, a taunt, a song, a deconstruction of someone's name…A 'nonsense' word that brings so much from its two syllables is surely what poetry is about--the creation of image from sound. To bok in Assamese, Das' first language, means to mutter/speak meaninglessly and repetitively. The Sanskrit word, Vak, from which this irreverent Assamese derivative takes its origins, means Speech. And Nitoo Das' Boki speaks in an explosion of images in which she demonstrates an uncanny ability to create poems that surprise us, hold us and move us. Boki will be released by teacher, critic, novelist and poet, GJV Prasad and will be followed by readings from the collection by Nitoo Das. Nitoo Das is a Senior Lecturer of English at Indraprastha College for Women, University of Delhi. She was born in Guwahati, but came to Delhi for her higher studies and decided to stay on and learn various survival skills in this ancient city. She runs a blog that began as an experiment over three years ago while working on a research project on poetry as hypertext. Her interests include fractals, caricatures, comic books, horror films, and studies of online communities. Boki is her first collection. From lists at shivamvij.com Mon Nov 10 15:29:09 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:29:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=92s?= =?windows-1252?q?_Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811100159m67763517tea88069d0e71d1f9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf, Many thanks for posting this. Naeem Mohaiemen had also posted a link to this story two days ago. I find it very interesting that it is not just Hindu fanatics but Muslim ones too whom Husain has managed to 'offend'. > But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the artist, a symbol of > nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his fellow Muslims. When both A and B hate C, it is the best possible evidence of C's non-partisanship. There could not be a better answer to the charge of Husain's 3 paintings being 'anti-Hindu'. I also find it interesting that he was born in "a Shiite subsect that calls itself Suleimanis". That makes him part of a 'minority within a minority within a minority'. What an irony then, that he should be made out to be a Hindu-hating "Muslim" "fundamentalist". best shivam On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Yousuf wrote: > An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals > > By SOMINI SENGUPTA > New York Times, November 8, 2008 > > DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Maqbool Fida Husain, India's most famous painter, is afraid to go home. > > Mr. Husain is a Muslim who is fond of painting Hindu goddesses, sometimes portraying them nude. That obsession has earned him the ire of a small but organized cadre of Hindu nationalists. They have attacked galleries that exhibit his work, accused him in court of "promoting enmity" among faiths and, on one occasion, offered an $11 million reward for his head. > > In September, the country's highest court offered him an unexpected reprieve, dismissing one of the cases against him with the blunt reminder that Hindu iconography, including ancient temples, is replete with nudity. Still, the artist, 93 and increasingly frail, is not taking any chances. For two years, he has lived here in self-imposed exile, amid opulently sterile skyscrapers. He intends to remain, at least for now. "They can put me in a jungle," Mr. Husain said gamely. "Still, I can create." > > Freedom of expression has frequently, and by some accounts, increasingly, come under fire in India, as the country tries to balance the dictates of its secular democracy with the easily inflamed religious and ethnic passions of its multitudes. > > The result is a strange anomaly in a nation known for its vibrant, freewheeling political culture. The government is compelled to ensure respect for India's diversity and at the same time prevent one group from pouncing on another for a perceived offense. Ramachandra Guha, a historian, calls it "perhaps the fundamental challenge of governance in India." > > The rise of an intense brand of identity politics, with India's many communities mobilizing for political power, has intensified the problem. An accusation that a piece of art or writing is offensive is an easy way to whip up the sentiments of a particular caste, faith or tribe, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an Indian political scientist, points out. He calls it "offense mongering." > > There have been isolated episodes of violence, and many more threats, often prompting the government to invoke British-era laws that allow it to ban works of art and literature. India was among the first countries to ban Salman Rushdie's novel "The Satanic Verses." > > In March, Taslima Nasreen, a Bangladeshi novelist living in exile in the Communist-controlled state of West Bengal, was forced to leave for several months after a Muslim political party objected to her work. > > Meanwhile, in the western state of Gujarat, controlled by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, a political psychologist, Ashis Nandy, was charged with "promoting enmity between different groups." His offense was to write an opinion article in The Times of India criticizing the victory of the Hindu nationalists in state elections; the case is pending. > > "That politics has gotten out of hand," Mr. Mehta, the political scientist, argued. "It puts liberal democracy at risk. If we want social stability we need a consensus on what our freedoms are." > > Even threats of violence from offended parties are a powerful deterrent. In Mumbai, formerly Bombay, where Mr. Husain lived for most of his life, a recent exhibition on Indian masters did not include his work. Nor did India's first modern art fair, held in New Delhi in August. The same week in the same city, a small show featuring reproductions of Mr. Husain's work was vandalized. > > Of Mr. Husain's exceptionally large body of work — at least 20,000 pieces, he guesses — there are three that have angered his foes. Two are highly stylized pencil drawings of Durga, the mother goddess, and Saraswati, the goddess of the arts, both faceless and nude. The third is a map of India rendered as a female nude, her head in the Himalayas, a breast jutting out into the Arabian Sea. Mr. Husain insists that nudity symbolizes purity. He has repeatedly said that he had not meant to offend any faith. But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the artist, a symbol of nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his fellow Muslims. > > Harsh Goenka, a Mumbai-based industrialist and one of the country's most important collectors, has a similar Husain nude, an oil painting of the goddess Saraswati. As "an average normal Hindu," he says he is appalled that Mr. Husain is not safe in his country. > > "Keeping him away is, in a way, showing the weakness of the system, that we cannot protect the rights of the citizen," Mr. Goenka said. "If he has done a crime, punish him. If he hasn't, let him live here with dignity and peace of mind." > > Mr. Husain calls the current Congress Party-led government too weak-kneed to offer him protection from those who might harm him. Mostly, though, he cautions against making too much of his case. India, he insists, is fundamentally "tolerant." > > Not least, he said, he has always been a vagabond, sleeping on the Mumbai streets during his impoverished youth, wandering through Europe to study Rembrandt, or bouncing, as he does now, among several lavish apartments and villas here in Dubai — or rather, cruising among them, in one of his five costly thrill machines, including a lipstick-red Ferrari, his current favorite. Mr. Husain is India's best-paid artist. Last March, at a Christie's auction, his "Battle of Ganga and Jamuna," part of a 27-canvas series on the Mahabharata, the Hindu epic, fetched $1.6 million. > > "I am working, it's O.K.," he said. "If things get all right, I'll go. If they don't, so be it. What can I do?" > > And then he quoted the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a Pakistani who went into exile in the late 1970s during President Muhammad Zia ul-Haq's regime and who wrote about missing the animosity of his enemies as much as the affection of friends. "Of course," he conceded, "the heart is there." > > On the morning of Id al-Fitr, Islam's holiest day, Mr. Husain sat in the back seat of his Bentley as it whizzed past a row of construction sites, taking calls from Mumbai on his new iPhone. > > Back home on the same day, his granddaughter Rakshanda was getting engaged. It was the first major family function he had missed since his exile. "Such an auspicious day," he murmured. "Anyway, we will have a ceremony here again." > > In Mumbai, it had been his custom to host an annual Id al-Fitr breakfast for his community, a Shiite subsect that calls itself Suleimanis. This morning, he hosted one here, too, at a community hall with steaming plates of mutton and flatbread. A stream of people came to pay their respects, taking his gnarled right hand, placing it above their eyes, one after the other, then to their lips. Mr. Husain, a master of flamboyance, stood beaming in a green silk jacket embroidered with motifs from his paintings, including several voluptuous, scantily clad women. > > He is now working on two ambitious series: one on Indian civilization, to be mounted in London, the second on Arab civilization, which will be exhibited in Qatar. > > Here in Dubai, he is at work on a whimsical installation titled "Form Meets Function," which will incorporate his five luxury cars, including a sound piece he intends to create using their engines. > > At sundown, he climbed into the passenger seat of the Ferrari, pounded the dashboard and instructed his driver to hit the gas pedal. The engine revved, and he squealed in delight. He said he had stopped driving several years ago, after cataract surgery. > > He does not have a studio in Dubai. There are easels in each of the homes he has bought for his extended clan. He spends a night here, a night there. > > One of them is an 11th-floor apartment with spectacular, south-facing views of jagged skyscrapers under construction. It is filled with dozens of small canvases from the 1950s that he had given to a Czech woman he had once intended to marry, though she turned him down. > > She found him recently and returned his paintings. "They belong to India," she told him. > > This afternoon, recalling the story, Mr. Husain said he would eventually have to take them home. "Temporarily," he mused, "they are here." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/world/asia/09india.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- mail at shivamvij dot com From rama.sangye at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 15:33:34 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:33:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=92s?= =?windows-1252?q?_Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0811100203x230cd053kfb9ec889ec404925@mail.gmail.com> References: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6ade4a8f0811100203x230cd053kfb9ec889ec404925@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811100203y540c88c3m46e9558912ab759d@mail.gmail.com> The Editor New York Times Dear Sir, A propos Somini Sengupta's article, "An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals" (NYT, 8 November 2008), as a citizen of India and of Calcutta, I would like to welcome Mr Husain to return to India, and come to Calcutta - there's a direct flight here from Dubai - and permit me to offer him my hospitality and protection, for as long as he wants. Mr Husain is not a stranger to Calcutta, and he has a host of friends and well-wishers here, including the Azad Hind Dhaba on Promotesh Barua Sarani (Ballygunge Circular Road), a well-known eating joint, especially known to late night revelers, which also houses his wall-painting "Gaja Gamini". I believe I speak for many of my fellow citizens when I say that I have no doubt he would be able to live in comfort and utmost security in Calcutta, and thus establish that democratic ideals do survive, even if they don't always flourish, in beleaguered India and Calcutta. Sincerely, V Ramaswamy From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:40:04 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:10:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=E2=80=99s_?= =?utf-8?q?Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0811100203y540c88c3m46e9558912ab759d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51556.87581.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Ramaswamy   I will make sure that a printed copy of this letter of yours reaches and is read by MF   KK --- On Mon, 11/10/08, V Ramaswamy wrote: From: V Ramaswamy Subject: [Reader-list] An Artist in Exile Tests India’s Democratic Ideals To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:33 PM The Editor New York Times Dear Sir, A propos Somini Sengupta's article, "An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals" (NYT, 8 November 2008), as a citizen of India and of Calcutta, I would like to welcome Mr Husain to return to India, and come to Calcutta - there's a direct flight here from Dubai - and permit me to offer him my hospitality and protection, for as long as he wants. Mr Husain is not a stranger to Calcutta, and he has a host of friends and well-wishers here, including the Azad Hind Dhaba on Promotesh Barua Sarani (Ballygunge Circular Road), a well-known eating joint, especially known to late night revelers, which also houses his wall-painting "Gaja Gamini". I believe I speak for many of my fellow citizens when I say that I have no doubt he would be able to live in comfort and utmost security in Calcutta, and thus establish that democratic ideals do survive, even if they don't always flourish, in beleaguered India and Calcutta. Sincerely, V Ramaswamy _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 15:44:22 2008 From: A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk (A Khanna) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:14:22 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> Pawan Durani >>>> pawan, when red fades, when it is well weathered and worldly-wise, when it has seen the sun many times over...it turns Pink. (unless of course the red was blood on the saffron flag in the first place) in anticipation of not having to read your aggressive masculinist emails on this list ever again, akshay -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From lists at shivamvij.com Mon Nov 10 15:55:09 2008 From: lists at shivamvij.com (Shivam V) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:55:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=92s?= =?windows-1252?q?_Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0811100203y540c88c3m46e9558912ab759d@mail.gmail.com> References: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6ade4a8f0811100203x230cd053kfb9ec889ec404925@mail.gmail.com> <6ade4a8f0811100203y540c88c3m46e9558912ab759d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fd66c110811100225r7bdd195nd4fcc5e78618ee9a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Ramaswamy, It is not so much physical security but legal harassment that is preventing MF Husain from returning to India. See, for instance: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=061117123756.5p7mp5uz&show_article=1 After this Supreme Court ruling - http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=21ab5780-8b8d-4583-953f-69d84721a569&&Headline=SC+stays+court+order+to+attach+MF+Hussain's+property - Husain expressed hope that he would soon return. See http://www.gulfnews.com/world/India/10231137.html But the SC ruling, I presume, has affected only a handful of the 900 odd cases said to have been filed against him. Which is why, perhaps, the NYT story doesn't say whether he's returning some time soon. best shivam On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 3:33 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > The Editor > New York Times > > > Dear Sir, > > A propos Somini Sengupta's article, "An Artist in Exile Tests > India's Democratic Ideals" (NYT, 8 November 2008), as a citizen of India and > of Calcutta, I would like to welcome Mr Husain to return to India, and come > to Calcutta - there's a direct flight here from Dubai - and permit me to > offer him my hospitality and protection, for as long as he wants. Mr Husain > is not a stranger to Calcutta, and he has a host of friends and well-wishers > here, including the Azad Hind Dhaba on Promotesh Barua Sarani (Ballygunge > Circular Road), a well-known eating joint, especially known to late night > revelers, which also houses his wall-painting "Gaja Gamini". I believe I > speak for many of my fellow citizens when I say that I have no doubt he > would be able to live in comfort and utmost security in Calcutta, and thus > establish that democratic ideals do survive, even if they don't always > flourish, in beleaguered India and Calcutta. > Sincerely, > > V Ramaswamy > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- mail at shivamvij dot com From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 16:01:10 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal Abuse... Message-ID: <470712.64601.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has bettered mine. I thank him for his work of genius. In fact, between the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality depending on where they come from, and take moral positions. To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5" figure and replace it with "scores of people", "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has become a norm" or "extraordinary number"... For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less, is equally criminal (notice he puts the word 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is innocent!) Killing a couple of hundred more or less does not make a very big difference to the immorality of shooting on crowds to force them indoors. The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim) and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am glad they are both physically safe... for now. > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim > wrote: > > > From: inder salim > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to > spitting and verbal Abuse... > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that is > the > > question: A > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and Kshmendra > ---- ( > > keeping in > > mind that the facts are stranger than fiction, but > the > > reverse can > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet > theirs > > only ) > > > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about exact > > statistics of > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in > Kashmir. > > Even Panun > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, since > late > > nineties, > > should have given a breather to India to bring about a > > serious > > dialogue. But what do they do? > > > > Kshmendra: I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young > > woman > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats she is > > receiving... > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I know > of > > so many of > > them who have used and subverted democratic > institutions > > for their own > > interest. > > > > Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though I > agree in > > part with yours. > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily > > basis since > > Amarnath land row. > > > > ( I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and Cosmic SHE will be > > talking to each > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in kashmir > ?) > > > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair. > > > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine. > > > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' have > died > > in the 'valley' > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider > any > > such death as > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized > society. > > But yours, > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the > 'theatre > > of false propaganda. > > > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom you > do > > not like or > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a > > 'moron' > > > > Kshmendra : for sure you are a "moron' and a > > "filthy liar" and fully > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'. > > > > Gowhar : 'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how > Kashmiris > > should behave > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership has to > > suite India's > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' that > the > > basic > > conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to > > engender such a > > collectively have been systematically removed from > Kashmir; > > Just to > > keep people from demonstrating for Azadi or > protesting > > against > > elections… > > > > > > > > to be continued.... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili > > > > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is > something > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in 'aside' > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of > > information. In this case your 'filthy lie' > of: > > > > > > """""" The valley > has > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since > Amarnath > > land row.""""""" > > > > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2) > > > > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy lie' > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might be > it's > > author, whether in a factual representation or in a > > fictional one. > > > > > > If you are not the protagonist "HE" in > your > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed about > any > > comments directed at "HIM". > > > > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to > describe > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) is a > word > > that I have not introduced into this List to describe > > someone like you. > > > > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in your > > conversation piece then for sure you are a > "moron' > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of > what > > you call 'abuse'. > > > > > > You whine that I should have placed 'counter > > figures' of what you think would be "a dozen > more > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine > considering > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) realistic > > 'death count' and the 'figures' > suggested by > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count of 2 > to > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. > There, one > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot. > > > > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started > sometime > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since it > started. > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to 5', > the > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. Do > you see > > what an 'idiot' you are? > > > > > > In this particular case let me distort the > application > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The "Latin > legal > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui > negat > > (the > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who > > denies)" In this case your assertion of > > """""" The valley has > seen two > > to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath > land > > row.""""""" > > > > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to place > me > > into a compartment for which you have the identifying > > construct of "abused as a child"; > "severe > > mental imbalance"; "(needing) psychological > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are > impure > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as to > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current objects > of hate > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as special > > targets for abuse". > > > > > > This is one more 'theatrical device' in > the > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If questioned > about > > "filthy lies" for which you have no > justifiable, > > credible and believable response you attack the > questioner > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her that > will > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with suspicion and > shift > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'. > > > > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me can > only > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not excuse > your > > "filthy lie" > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli > > wrote: > > > > > > From: gowhar fazli > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to > spitting > > and verbal Abuse... > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM > > > > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... > > Kshmendra's use of this language > > > against me on the readers list suggests he might > have > > been abused as a child. > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being > abused as > > a child can create severe > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among > people. It > > might be high time for > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help > > because it has bearing on his > > > quality of life and of those around him. > > > > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the > 'HE' > > in the dialogue I > > > posted... in which case he could have placed his > > counter figures (say a couple > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently > asked > > for the source....There was > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive. > > > > > > The other more profound explanation could be that > it > > forms part of his > > > socialisation and culture. Brahmin's have > long > > held it to be their right to > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and > inferior. > > So in this light, cases > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not like or > > calling somebody a 'filthy > > > liar' or a 'moron' might be an > attempt to > > reclaim that right and > > > culture against the current community they hate, > or to > > use a turn of phrase, > > > want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be the > current > > objects of hate and insult > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most > assertive > > among them, they happen to > > > be the special targets of abuse. > > > > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about exact > > statistics of the dead, but two > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers, > that > > the democratic exercise > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the > collective > > good... His, that the > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and the > > atmosphere to engender such a > > > collectivity have been systematically removed > Kashmir. > > > > > > Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on > > this? > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A > filthy > > lie by Gowhar Fazli. > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > , > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli > > >> > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the > conversation > > you have > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are > the > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy liar. > > >> > > >> I refer to the statement: > > >> > > >> """""" The > valley > > has seen > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > since > > Amarnath land > > >> > row.""""""" > > >> > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have died > in > > the > > >> 'valley' since the start of the > Amarnath > > Land Row. I > > >> consider any such death as sad, unfortunate > and > > unacceptable > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even the > > deaths of > > >> those who have consciously chosen the path of > > violence to > > >> further their agenda as being sad, > unfortunate, > > regretable > > >> and avoidable. > > >> > > >> But that does not mean that 'morons' > like > > >> you should have the licence to float blatant > lies > > on this > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with the > smug > > >> thought that you will not be questioned. > > >> > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you a > > 'filthy > > >> liar'? > > >> > > >> I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 > to 5 > > deaths > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the start > of > > the > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any > credible > > news source > > >> of your choice. A credible news source would > for > > sure have > > >> a presence on the Web where your statement > can be > > confirmed > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being a > > 'filthy > > >> lie' as I have called it. > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> From: gowhar fazli > > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > >> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM > > >> > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! > (Commenting > > on my > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!) > > >> > > >> HE: :) > > >> > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and > > bollywud magic > > >> that day on tv > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and > > kisses....wah!!! > > >> > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one in > > Kashmir n one > > >> in US! > > >> > > >> SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look > at > > the > > >> conduct of political > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for each > > other....more > > >> to blame is also > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream > > India......in fact in > > >> south Asia, the > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote bank > and > > slur....we > > >> still have to grow as > > >> a democracy...remember we are only 60..as > compared > > to US > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly > they > > blame > > >> the Indian govt of > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a > young > > woman > > >> contesting from > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is > > receiving... what > > >> does the Hurriyat want > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them > who > > have used > > >> and subverted > > >> democratic institutions for their own > interest. U > > know the > > >> major draw back in > > >> our part of the world is that we do not have > the > > courage > > >> for self correctness, > > >> self introspection.....USA did that....they > have > > brought in > > >> change...I admire > > >> that... > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... > > >> > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I > agree > > in part > > >> with yours > > >> > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call > for > > Jamia > > >> Chalo for killing of 5 > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... > > >> > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people > protested > > in Kashmir > > >> for Azadi and were > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the protests... > > Kashmir is in > > >> no mood for election > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed... > without > > any > > >> negotiation with the > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the > government > > can offer > > >> is to impose a > > >> conventional election to meet its deadline to > show > > that all > > >> is well in Kashmir. > > >> It is not. > > >> I think the bigger problem is this not the > > morality of > > >> our local politicians. > > >> the conditions we live in can only produce > the > > kind of > > >> politicians we presently > > >> have. > > >> USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for > eight > > years > > >> before it was time for > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides > how > > Kashmiris > > >> should behave and who > > >> should be in power. > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite India's > > self-image its > > >> foreign policy and > > >> morality. > > >> > > >> SHE: you forget that people who are standing > for > > elections > > >> ( record number > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each other > , > > their party > > >> workers shouting anti > > >> India slogans ) or people wanting to vote > are > > also > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for > > different > > >> reasons. They are > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want > to > > vote are > > >> Kashmiris too...so are > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are > Ladhakis , > > Poocnhis, > > >> etc who want to > > >> vote...no one is shying away from resolving > the > > >> issue...spell out the agenda > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why > intimidate > > them, > > >> kill them...why instill > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say > they..I > > mean all > > >> those, religious > > >> groups, media, separatist so called > > nationalist.... who > > >> want to build their own > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or > anywhere > > >> else...as I said we need to > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues is > bit > > >> difficult... > > >> > > >> > > >> HE: I didn't forget them... Ladakhis, > Pandits, > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who > > >> want to vote for various reasons... Yet > daily > > killing to > > >> keep people to keep > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or > protesting > > against > > >> elections (peacefully I > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily armed > > security forces > > >> from by lanes as > > >> serious violence especially when you are > > permanently held > > >> under section 144) > > >> cannot be justified because some people there > or > > elsewhere > > >> want to vote. The > > >> context in which elections are happening is > pure > > >> imposition... more of what has > > >> been happening all along. > > >> Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling > out > > agendas > > >> is not possible and > > >> largely the establishment which wields power > in > > Kashmir is > > >> responsible for > > >> maintaining such a situation there. There > is > > too much > > >> intelligence > > >> interference... too much security structure > to > > allow people > > >> to breathe... let > > >> alone have a Democratic process. Too much of > > humiliation > > >> on the daily basis to > > >> let a person feel human enough... Even > those who > > were > > >> alienated from religion > > >> or primordial identities are being pushed to > adopt > > these > > >> for bare survival. In > > >> wake of this the only articulation that is > > possible is hate > > >> or violence. You > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and ask > him/her > > to talk > > >> peace. They might > > >> oblige until you get off... but then hate you > with > > all the > > >> intensity they can > > >> muster soon after that. > > >> I think the situation is like this... We > have > > beaten > > >> Kashmiris to the point of > > >> making them into brutes... and now we justify > the > > >> continuity of violence by > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and > deserve > > it! > > >> Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir > since > > late > > >> nineties should have > > >> given a breather to India to bring about a > serious > > >> dialogue. But what do they > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is the > solution > > and > > >> squander the chance. > > >> We cannot maintain the facade of moral > preachers > > after all > > >> that has happened > > >> in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame > and > > let the > > >> people have their say. > > >> Even though what they decide might not be to > our > > liking and > > >> in our opinion > > >> disastrous for them. Too often our personal > > interests get > > >> enmeshed with our > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment such > that we > > cannot > > >> see what is actually > > >> happening to people. > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing > judgments > > on the > > >> people of Kashmir and > > >> demonizing them. I hope more of the civil > society > > >> activists who engage with > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so. > > >> > > >> When you refer to intimidation and killing i > am > > surprised > > >> that you miss out the > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right > now... the > > CRPF! > > >> You see we percieve > > >> different realities because of where each of > us is > > located. > > >> The valley has seen > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > since > > Amarnath > > >> land row. This seems to > > >> be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. > I > > have my > > >> batchmates within the > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts of > how the > > force > > >> percieves ordinary > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or > > humiliated for > > >> no reason but for > > >> what they are. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and > > the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 16:29:20 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:59:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=E2=80=99s_?= =?utf-8?q?Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <1fd66c110811100159m67763517tea88069d0e71d1f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <689083.49700.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Shivam As you may have noticed, I also posted this news to the Jamia Millia alumni group (which has hundreds of current and ex-students of Jamia) for a specific reason. Since you have talked about Hussain offending both religions, I would like to mention an interesting (and also disturbing) debate we've been having here. For everyone's information, Delhi's Jamia Millia Islamia (a central university) has recently inaugurated a brand new art gallery named after none other than Maqbool Fida Hussain, a very bold step not only in the current controversy of Hussain's nude deity pictures, but also in the context of Jamia's rather orthodox history. Curently the gallery is showing paintings of several well-known Indian artists including Satish Gujral, Hussain and others. The gallery was visited during the recently concluded Talimi mela (educational fair) by thousands of people including burqa-clad women and bearded clerics coming from Jamia's neighborhood. The debate that has started recently in Jamia (especially on the alumni e-group) shows that a majority of Muslim students are unhappy on two accounts: (1) Hussain paints Hindu deities, which is un-Islamic any way, and (2) he hurts the sentiments of Hindus, which is indirectly a problem for "us". So why should we have a gallery named after him. It was interesting that a few extremist "Hindu" and "Muslim" students actually came down to agree entirely on this point, and both of them wrote against the lone pseudo-secularist. Each of them kept asking readers to "go and visit Hussain's hurtful paintings on the net to decide for yourself" - a large chunk of our youth getting educated entirely on the net has probably never visited a good arts gallery. I will try to forward you some of the discussions on the forum, in which we talked for example about nudity, stretching it all the way to Adam and Eve, and so on. But ultimately, it was decided that "whatever is bad for Muslims, is bad for all humanity" and that's the decision of the jury. Unfortunate times for the art. I am jittery about the future of this arts gallery - from both sides. See this: http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/5690.html Yousuf --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Shivam V wrote: > From: Shivam V > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] An Artist in Exile Tests India’s Democratic Ideals > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, jamia_millia_alumni_directory at yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:29 PM > Dear Yousuf, > > Many thanks for posting this. Naeem Mohaiemen had also > posted a link > to this story two days ago. > > I find it very interesting that it is not just Hindu > fanatics but > Muslim ones too whom Husain has managed to > 'offend'. > > > But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the > artist, a symbol of > > nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his > fellow Muslims. > > When both A and B hate C, it is the best possible evidence > of C's > non-partisanship. There could not be a better answer to the > charge of > Husain's 3 paintings being 'anti-Hindu'. > > I also find it interesting that he was born in "a > Shiite subsect that > calls itself Suleimanis". That makes him part of a > 'minority within a > minority within a minority'. What an irony then, that > he should be > made out to be a Hindu-hating "Muslim" > "fundamentalist". > > best > shivam > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Yousuf > wrote: > > An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals > > > > By SOMINI SENGUPTA > > New York Times, November 8, 2008 > > > > DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Maqbool Fida Husain, > India's most famous painter, is afraid to go home. > > > > Mr. Husain is a Muslim who is fond of painting Hindu > goddesses, sometimes portraying them nude. That obsession > has earned him the ire of a small but organized cadre of > Hindu nationalists. They have attacked galleries that > exhibit his work, accused him in court of "promoting > enmity" among faiths and, on one occasion, offered an > $11 million reward for his head. > > > > In September, the country's highest court offered > him an unexpected reprieve, dismissing one of the cases > against him with the blunt reminder that Hindu iconography, > including ancient temples, is replete with nudity. Still, > the artist, 93 and increasingly frail, is not taking any > chances. For two years, he has lived here in self-imposed > exile, amid opulently sterile skyscrapers. He intends to > remain, at least for now. "They can put me in a > jungle," Mr. Husain said gamely. "Still, I can > create." > > > > Freedom of expression has frequently, and by some > accounts, increasingly, come under fire in India, as the > country tries to balance the dictates of its secular > democracy with the easily inflamed religious and ethnic > passions of its multitudes. > > > > The result is a strange anomaly in a nation known for > its vibrant, freewheeling political culture. The government > is compelled to ensure respect for India's diversity and > at the same time prevent one group from pouncing on another > for a perceived offense. Ramachandra Guha, a historian, > calls it "perhaps the fundamental challenge of > governance in India." > > > > The rise of an intense brand of identity politics, > with India's many communities mobilizing for political > power, has intensified the problem. An accusation that a > piece of art or writing is offensive is an easy way to whip > up the sentiments of a particular caste, faith or tribe, > Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an Indian political scientist, points > out. He calls it "offense mongering." > > > > There have been isolated episodes of violence, and > many more threats, often prompting the government to invoke > British-era laws that allow it to ban works of art and > literature. India was among the first countries to ban > Salman Rushdie's novel "The Satanic Verses." > > > > In March, Taslima Nasreen, a Bangladeshi novelist > living in exile in the Communist-controlled state of West > Bengal, was forced to leave for several months after a > Muslim political party objected to her work. > > > > Meanwhile, in the western state of Gujarat, controlled > by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, a political > psychologist, Ashis Nandy, was charged with "promoting > enmity between different groups." His offense was to > write an opinion article in The Times of India criticizing > the victory of the Hindu nationalists in state elections; > the case is pending. > > > > "That politics has gotten out of hand," Mr. > Mehta, the political scientist, argued. "It puts > liberal democracy at risk. If we want social stability we > need a consensus on what our freedoms are." > > > > Even threats of violence from offended parties are a > powerful deterrent. In Mumbai, formerly Bombay, where Mr. > Husain lived for most of his life, a recent exhibition on > Indian masters did not include his work. Nor did India's > first modern art fair, held in New Delhi in August. The same > week in the same city, a small show featuring reproductions > of Mr. Husain's work was vandalized. > > > > Of Mr. Husain's exceptionally large body of work > — at least 20,000 pieces, he guesses — there are three > that have angered his foes. Two are highly stylized pencil > drawings of Durga, the mother goddess, and Saraswati, the > goddess of the arts, both faceless and nude. The third is a > map of India rendered as a female nude, her head in the > Himalayas, a breast jutting out into the Arabian Sea. Mr. > Husain insists that nudity symbolizes purity. He has > repeatedly said that he had not meant to offend any faith. > But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the > artist, a symbol of nonviolence — at Mecca, created a > ruckus among his fellow Muslims. > > > > Harsh Goenka, a Mumbai-based industrialist and one of > the country's most important collectors, has a similar > Husain nude, an oil painting of the goddess Saraswati. As > "an average normal Hindu," he says he is appalled > that Mr. Husain is not safe in his country. > > > > "Keeping him away is, in a way, showing the > weakness of the system, that we cannot protect the rights of > the citizen," Mr. Goenka said. "If he has done a > crime, punish him. If he hasn't, let him live here with > dignity and peace of mind." > > > > Mr. Husain calls the current Congress Party-led > government too weak-kneed to offer him protection from those > who might harm him. Mostly, though, he cautions against > making too much of his case. India, he insists, is > fundamentally "tolerant." > > > > Not least, he said, he has always been a vagabond, > sleeping on the Mumbai streets during his impoverished > youth, wandering through Europe to study Rembrandt, or > bouncing, as he does now, among several lavish apartments > and villas here in Dubai — or rather, cruising among them, > in one of his five costly thrill machines, including a > lipstick-red Ferrari, his current favorite. Mr. Husain is > India's best-paid artist. Last March, at a > Christie's auction, his "Battle of Ganga and > Jamuna," part of a 27-canvas series on the Mahabharata, > the Hindu epic, fetched $1.6 million. > > > > "I am working, it's O.K.," he said. > "If things get all right, I'll go. If they > don't, so be it. What can I do?" > > > > And then he quoted the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a > Pakistani who went into exile in the late 1970s during > President Muhammad Zia ul-Haq's regime and who wrote > about missing the animosity of his enemies as much as the > affection of friends. "Of course," he conceded, > "the heart is there." > > > > On the morning of Id al-Fitr, Islam's holiest day, > Mr. Husain sat in the back seat of his Bentley as it whizzed > past a row of construction sites, taking calls from Mumbai > on his new iPhone. > > > > Back home on the same day, his granddaughter Rakshanda > was getting engaged. It was the first major family function > he had missed since his exile. "Such an auspicious > day," he murmured. "Anyway, we will have a > ceremony here again." > > > > In Mumbai, it had been his custom to host an annual Id > al-Fitr breakfast for his community, a Shiite subsect that > calls itself Suleimanis. This morning, he hosted one here, > too, at a community hall with steaming plates of mutton and > flatbread. A stream of people came to pay their respects, > taking his gnarled right hand, placing it above their eyes, > one after the other, then to their lips. Mr. Husain, a > master of flamboyance, stood beaming in a green silk jacket > embroidered with motifs from his paintings, including > several voluptuous, scantily clad women. > > > > He is now working on two ambitious series: one on > Indian civilization, to be mounted in London, the second on > Arab civilization, which will be exhibited in Qatar. > > > > Here in Dubai, he is at work on a whimsical > installation titled "Form Meets Function," which > will incorporate his five luxury cars, including a sound > piece he intends to create using their engines. > > > > At sundown, he climbed into the passenger seat of the > Ferrari, pounded the dashboard and instructed his driver to > hit the gas pedal. The engine revved, and he squealed in > delight. He said he had stopped driving several years ago, > after cataract surgery. > > > > He does not have a studio in Dubai. There are easels > in each of the homes he has bought for his extended clan. He > spends a night here, a night there. > > > > One of them is an 11th-floor apartment with > spectacular, south-facing views of jagged skyscrapers under > construction. It is filled with dozens of small canvases > from the 1950s that he had given to a Czech woman he had > once intended to marry, though she turned him down. > > > > She found him recently and returned his paintings. > "They belong to India," she told him. > > > > This afternoon, recalling the story, Mr. Husain said > he would eventually have to take them home. > "Temporarily," he mused, "they are > here." > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/world/asia/09india.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > mail at shivamvij dot com From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 16:41:23 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Maya to Obama, signs of the new millennium - GAIL OMVEDT Message-ID: <821834.48286.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> "... For African Americans, it was symbolised in a message sent from phone to phone: "Rosa sat so Martin could walk. Martin walked so Barack could run. Barack ran so your children can fly." Hopefully, this will symbolise the new millennium, not only for people of every colour in the US but for people of all castes in India." Date: Sunday, 9 November, 2008, 2:20 PM Maya to Obama, signs of the new millennium - GAIL OMVEDT Obama has won! I was in the US in May 2007, when Mayavati became chief minister of UP, and Obama was coming forward in the US primary. With my daughter's friends, mostly young and radical South Asian Americans, and all Obama supporters we celebrated Mayavati's achievement. After years of depressing Republican presidencies, war and neoliberalism, something new was happening in the world. An African American was aiming for the presidency, while a Dalit (and a woman!) was heading India's largest state and promising to become Prime Minister in 10 years. Old barriers of caste and race were being not only challenged, but surmounted. Obama has made history: will Mayavati? It seems that we were truly entering a new millennium! Obama's victory itself reflects not only his own impressive leadership, but also a long history. I remember the 1960s: Thirty to forty years ago there were huge "race riots" in the US. In fact, they were urban ghetto uprisings, protests against the continued racism of American society. A bloody civil war - the bloodiest in American history - had been gone through a century earlier; but in the reaction afterwards segregation was reimposed in the south and the former slaves were deprived of the voting rights. It took decades to make really solid changes. W.E.B. Dubois, as a militant, Left-leaning leader of African Americans, and Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar can well be compared; theoretically and practically there were great similarities. Yet while Ambedkar could become the head of the Constitution drafting committee and a minister, first in British Indian, then in independent India, Dubois could not get a job as postmaster in Washington D.C. which he had applied for. Bitter at the end, Dubois ended as a Communist in Africa. The 1960s saw the civil rights movement; Martin Luther King (moved by a brave woman named Rosa Parks) emerging to leadership of a Montgomery bus strike as Blacks revolted against being forced to sit at the back of the bus; then came sit-ins by militant Black students resolving not to move away from restaurants refusing to serve them coffee. In Freedom Summer, an event organised by the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee to bring whites and Blacks together to fight segregation in Mississippi, four men - three whites and an African American - were killed. One of the slogans of SNCC was the sarcastic, "there's a town in Mississippi called Liberty; there's a Department in Washington called Justice" - a comment on the lack of support they were getting from the Federal government. Little children moving to integrate schools were forced to go through mobs of cursing and shouting white segregationists. And then came the uprisings in northern ghettos, cities outside the Deep South which had their own harsh forms of racism. They were historic years, a time of spreading militancy. A youth group I was working with in Berkeley, calling themselves "Youth Council for Community Action" (they had wanted "Youth Party for Youth Protection" but it was felt too militant), had the saying: "There are Negroes, niggers and Black people. We have a lot of niggers in this organisation, but at least we don't have any Negroes!" Negroes, once the preferred term, had gotten the connotation of a middle class sellout; "nigger" was a derogatory term when used by whites (known insultingly as "honkies") but when used among themselves had a rather desirable connotation of someone who was (ironically) "bad" - tough, riotous, uncontrollable, one who never gave in or gave up. And "Black" by then was the preferred term, someone who was "together", a real "brother". America has come a long way since then. Sparked by the protests and uprisings, which had the support of growing groups of whites, the government responded with a number of "affirmative action" programmes. Some sections preferred to build "Black Capitalism", which radicals such as myself at the time saw as rather a sellout. Yet all of these had their effect, Blacks - now calling themselves "African Americans" - began to move ahead in many fields. Emerging writers, men and women alike began to make their impact. Films such as Roots brought home the reality of slavery to millions of viewers; the Color Purple (from the novel by Alice Walker) saw Black women coming in masses and crying through its showing - and sterling first performers by Whoopee Goldberg and Oprah Winfrey. Oprah went on to become the highest paid TV personage in the country, said to be worth a million dollars an hour, her endorsement for Obama worth a million votes. Among the youth of the country, the change in attitude was often profound; people began to choose their friends and mates without looking at colour. According to Census bureau figures, for example, black-white marriages increased from 65,000 in 1970 to 422,000 in 2005. Racism is hardly dead; but it is under challenge as never before. Then came a young Senator of mixed parentage, white and African, with a history of community organising, with a Kenyan father and a childhood in Indonesia and Hawaii. When he announced his candidacy as a Democrat for the presidency in 2007, he was a "dark horse", a relative unknown; Hillary Clinton was the overwhelming favourite. Yet Obama began to waken tremendous enthusiasm, drawing huge crowds and provoking emotion. His slogan was simple: "change". By the time of the vote, Obama's victory was no surprise. Charged with being young and inexperienced, he won over his primary and main election opponents not only with the most impressive funding seen in history, but also with powerful organisation, going to the grassroots with a practical machine and using the Internet, YouTube and SMS cellphone messages. He remained cool and unflappable in the face of every challenge. And he awakened something like a new dream among Americans, mostly young, but of every class, Black and white and Hispanic. Throughout the campaign, he drew crowds like a rock star or a famous preacher, emotional, swaying. The night of the election itself tens of thousands gathered in Chicago and New York, singing and weeping, hugging each other as the results became clear. When he stated in his acceptance speech "change has come -- we have proved today it is a new and real 'United' States of America", the emotional achievement of breaking through three hundred years of American slavery and oppression was visible in many faces. As one columnist, Frank Rich in the New York Times, wrote: "Obama doesn't transcend race. He isn't post-race. He is the latest chapter in the ever-unfurling American racial saga. It is an astonishing chapter." For African Americans, it was symbolised in a message sent from phone to phone: "Rosa sat so Martin could walk. Martin walked so Barack could run. Barack ran so your children can fly." Hopefully, this will symbolise the new millennium, not only for people of every colour in the US but for people of all castes in India. Gail Omvedt is an America-born sociologist whose essential work has centred on Dalit empowerment movements in India. Among her many books is a political biography of B.R. Ambedkar. Omvedt became an Indian citizen in 1983 and lives in Maharashtra. From shahzulf at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 16:58:41 2008 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:28:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Councillors ignored in preparing budget Message-ID: <557062.99771.qm@web38806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Councillors ignored in preparing budget By Our Staff Correspondent HYDERABAD, Nov 9: Councillors and NGO activists said at a seminar here on Sunday that council members were never consulted about preparation of budget and were always asked to pass the document prepared by municipal officers and secretaries. The seminar on “Budget allocations in local government for marginalised sections of society” was organised by the South Asia Partnership in collaboration with We Journalists at a hotel. The speakers said that budget was passed every year without any input from councillors and nazims. Qazi Basheer, former director of local government, said that he had observed in the course of his service that officers were in the habit of just modifying the budget of outgoing fiscal year to prepare a new budget. He called for budgets that should be rights-based and poor-friendly and said that British rulers were people-friendly because they used to take feedback from local population before allocating funds. Majority of speakers including councillors and NGOs’ activists who were working in local bodies sector were of consensus opinion that local bodies’ members were not consulted in preparation of budgets. They hit out at parliamentarians and said that they had no vision to improve the lot of their electorates. Sarwar Abbasi, a councillor from Larkana, said that councillors did not have any say in local government affairs. Funds meant for union councils often found their way to meeting fuel expenses of nazims and paying salaries of staff, he said, adding that even Nisar Khuhro, MPA from his area, did not visit his constituency. Javed Bhatti, an NGO activist from Badin, said that they normally came to know about passing of district government’s budget through newspapers. Taluka municipal officers and union councils’ secretaries prepared budget after mutual consultation, he said. He said that funds out of monthly grant for UCs should be utilised for carrying out development works in the area. Dr Rubi Dharam Das, a member of Umerkot district council, said that members were handed stacks of budget documents in which they had zero input. “We normally pass ready-made budgets because influence is always there,” she said. Ali Hassan Mahar of Village Development Organisation Ghotki said that the first round of LB polls were considered as exercise and there was hope that in the second round things would start improving but unfortunately situation had only worsened. He criticised even parliamentarians for their lack of vision. “Around Rs500,000 were spent Sindh chief minister’s visit to Ghotki but what our MPA demanded of him was that a hospital should be named after Shaheed Benazir Bhutto. He didn’t ask the chief executive to give equipment to the hospital, upgrade it or ensure availability of doctors,” he said. SAP coordinator Zulfikar Shah dilated on the question of provincial autonomy without which, he believed, conditions could not improve at grass-root level. Sindh had a surplus of Rs4 million but then onwards it was having a deficit budget. Only three per cent and seven per cent improvement had been witnessed in road and sewerage sector during last eight years which was not appreciable. He called for activating 268 monitoring committees and decentralisation of political structure with an effective bureaucracy and supported women’s representation in the system. Yamin Memon, PhD in development sector, said that present LB system had been borrowed from the developed countries where it had been working successfully. Actually, political will was required to make the system workable with proper monitoring, he stressed. Jaffar Memon of We Journalists, Ghaffar Malik, Iqbal Mallah and Nazeer Qureshi also spoke at the seminar. Courtesy: daily Dawn New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/ From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 17:25:26 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:25:26 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 106 References: Message-ID: <109751.99898.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com> AArti, "See, I could demand that you be removed from the list for calling me a terror supporter"  what a way to start the discussion, with threats.? ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:49:21 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 106 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 (Aarti Sethi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:48:52 +0530 From: "Aarti Sethi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 To: "rajendra bhat" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, shuddha at sarai.net Message-ID:     <48c2916d0811100118u322f0603pcaf64b2c3afa7321 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Ah! Dear Rajendra Bhat! Are you too cognitionally challenged like our friend Pawan? The list is not gagging the "voice of dissent" as you so charmingly characterise the hindu fascists in our midst. The list is merely attempting to hold people accountable for the lies they spread about other members. If you spent a little time reading Shuddha's mail, you will notice that he does not raise the issue of anyone's politics or ideaology anywhere. He is only refers to statements which allege that some list members have received *payment* for what they write. Surely even you would agree that this comes under every definition of libel and if indeed Pawan and Aditya are in possession of information regarding Shuddha's paychecks, it should not be any trouble to furnish this list with proof. See, I could demand that you be removed from the list for calling me a terror supporter. Am I? No. because it your (erroneous) *opinion* of me. In return I could say you are a bigoted fascist, but because I am a well-brought up young woman I won't. Regardless, I will have to suffer your presence as you are forced to suffer mine. However Pawan and Aditya have not simply abused, sworn at and *spat at* people on this list, they have made serious libellous allegations against them. Do you not think they should rpove this? Do you think it is ok to make baseless charges against people and damage their credibility? No it is not. So, prove what you say or leave. warm regards as always Aarti On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Oh, now it is" we "  versus they. ? > >  I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more > citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its > citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in > kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to > seek justice.? > >  Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again and > again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves is > that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is > functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and other >  terror supporters on the list. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >    reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >    https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >    reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at >    reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >  1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 > From: "Aarti Sethi" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: sarai list , we wi , >    Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Message-ID: >    <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but > bleats to offer. > > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as > well. > > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. > > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. > > Warm regards > (as it seems for the last time) > > Aarti > > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any > private communications with you at all. > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > Lastly, > > > > My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology > which > > I can understand. > > > > The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a > > right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any > > member.. > > So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] > > > > Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. > > > > If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the > > judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double > > the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in > my > > ideology. > > > > So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand > > that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in > > either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i > am > > really a hurdle. > > > > But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. > > > > regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Kirdar, > > > > > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes > > him > > > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > > > group. > > > > > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > > > > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > > > > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > > > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have > > one. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Pawan > > >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > > >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > > >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > > >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > > >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > > >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > > >> > > >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > > >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > > >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > > >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > > >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > > >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > > >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > > >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy > > >> about the plight of KPs. > > >> > > >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > > >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > > >> is ticking. > > >> > > >> Kirdar > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > Dear Kirdar, > > >> > > > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they > come > > >> from . > > >> > > > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters > of > > >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless > he > > >> > considers himself one.. > > >> > > > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on > > >> Geelani > > >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write > > >> that > > >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > > >> investigated.What > > >> > makes the two different ? > > >> > > > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of > > certain > > >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens > in > > >> all > > >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he > > co > > >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members > and > > >> non > > >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > > >> > > > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates > just > > >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone > > >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on > this > > >> list > > >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate > > >> ..... > > >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > > >> himself > > >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... > > >> > > > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena > , > > >> Panun > > >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything > wrong > > >> with > > >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > > >> However i > > >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of > > the > > >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its > member > > >> as we > > >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > > advise. > > >> But > > >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of > > >> these. > > >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all > > >> odds. > > >> > > > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > > >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri > pandits > > >> world > > >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to > scuttle > > >> the > > >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > > >> > > > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > > Chinese > > >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why > does > > it > > >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself > a > > >> > supporter of that ? > > >> > > > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom > is > > >> to > > >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > > >> undergone > > >> > Exodus and genocide. > > >> > > > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > > >> myself > > >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and > > >> what > > >> > not to word.. > > >> > > > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not > > challenge > > >> a > > >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha > and > > >> > others be removed. > > >> > > > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so > > >> they do > > >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > > >> > > > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha. > > >> > > > >> > Regards > > >> > > > >> > Pawan Durani > > >> > > > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Dear Pawan > > >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > > >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of > > foreign > > >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support > such > > >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I > > think > > >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half > that > > >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you > are > > >> >> gone. > > >> >> > > >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > > >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > > >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please > > >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you > > >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. > Maybe > > >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > > >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > > >> >> > > >> >> Kirdar > > >> >> > > >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > > pawan.durani at gmail.com > > >> > > > >> >> wrote: > > >> >> > Dear All, > > >> >> > > > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > > >> exposed. > > >> >> > The > > >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me > , > > >> >> > Aditya , > > >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are > > >> nothing > > >> >> > but > > >> >> > figment of his own imagination. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder > , > > >> >> > Shivam > > >> >> > and Arti have to be. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Pawan > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>  Dear All, > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on > our > > >> list, > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > > >> >> >> Unfortunately it > > >> >> >> is not without precedent. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun > Kashmir' > > >> and > > >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced > > with > > >> >> >> detailed > > >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their > 'case', > > >> >> >> habitually > > >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their > > >> >> >> desires to > > >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena > >  goon > > >> >> >> allies > > >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at > the > > >> >> >> university. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Of late,there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in > > this > > >> >> >> list, > > >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > > >> associated > > >> >> >> with > > >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > > >> >> >> insinuations > > >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya > > Raj > > >> >> >> Kaul) > > >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK > gospel > > or > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be > > doing > > >> so > > >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > > >> masters' > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > > ethical > > >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of > these > > >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > > >> position > > >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > > >> account > > >> >> >> for > > >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of > > being > > >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. > So, > > >> >> >> 'writers' > > >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid > > >> agent, > > >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was > made > > >> when > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > > >> >> >> propoganda > > >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they > > are > > >> >> >> being > > >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or > their > > >> >> >> local > > >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the > > foreign > > >> >> >> hand' > > >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian > > >> >> >> politicians > > >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. > > It > > >> is > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with > > >> >> >> reality and > > >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide > > but > > >> >> >> fails > > >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia > Jabbar > > >> on > > >> >> >> to > > >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. > Durani > > >> >> >> keeps, > > >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > > >> >> >> Kashmir' > > >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to > write > > >> for > > >> >> >> their > > >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one > that > > >> >> >> these > > >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem > to > > be > > >> >> >> doing > > >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > > >> beholden > > >> >> >> to. > > >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers > admitting > > >> to > > >> >> >> the > > >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as > > their > > >> own > > >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who > > doesn't > > >> >> >> agree > > >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions > > >> when > > >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard > > >> line > > >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, > Aarti > > >> has > > >> >> >> been > > >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > > accused > > >> of > > >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > > specific > > >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been > > called > > >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take > > >> this > > >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > > casually > > >> >> >> either. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing > > what > > >> we > > >> >> >> are > > >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or > 'terrorist' > > is > > >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am > willing > > >> to > > >> >> >> take > > >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank > > >> >> >> accounts > > >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani > should > > >> think > > >> >> >> that > > >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for > > purchase > > >> at > > >> >> >> such > > >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a > hired > > >> hack > > >> >> >> who > > >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and > > >> leavings > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No > one > > is > > >> >> >> paid by > > >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. > No > > >> >> >> payments > > >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of > writing > > >> >> >> either. > > >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing > > on > > >> the > > >> >> >> Reader List either. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, > to > > >> the > > >> >> >> Sarai > > >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > > >> >> >> professional > > >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > > >> especially > > >> >> >> as > > >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been > willing > > >> to > > >> >> >> ignore > > >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > > >> thrown > > >> >> >> in > > >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two > weeks, > > >> then > > >> >> >> we > > >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not > > think > > >> >> >> deserves > > >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each > > quote > > >> >> >> with > > >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > > >> taken, > > >> >> >> so > > >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > > >> follow > > >> >> >> each > > >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > > >> capitalized > > >> >> >> for > > >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> -------------------------- > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 1. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN > > >> >> >> COUNTRY , > > >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > > >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment > > >> case > > >> >> >> are > > >> >> >> being followed more closely. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and > their > > >> links > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come > > out > > >> >> >> soon..." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and > the > > >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort > > backed > > >> by > > >> >> >> a > > >> >> >> foreign country' > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are > being > > >> >> >> ascertained' > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details > of > > >> how > > >> >> >> he > > >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, > or > > >> >> >> stand > > >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > > >> character > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to > > >> know > > >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to > > >> count > > >> >> >> as > > >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 2. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL > > TIME > > >> >> >> JOB > > >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > > neither > > >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader > > >> List > > >> >> >> on any > > >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I > want > > >> to > > >> >> >> know > > >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the > Reader > > >> List > > >> >> >> is a > > >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > > >> substantiate > > >> >> >> this, > > >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say > what > > I > > >> >> >> do, or > > >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for > > >> this. > > >> >> >> In > > >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate > > this > > >> >> >> charge, > > >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from > this > > >> list, > > >> >> >> or > > >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 3. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID > > JOB, > > >> >> >> UNLIKE > > >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > > >> support > > >> >> >> their > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, > > from > > >> >> >> reading > > >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again > > >> >> >> because > > >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked > > >> >> >> immediately > > >> >> >> before this still hold. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 4. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, > > and > > >> >> >> also IT > > >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in > > the > > >> >> >> way he > > >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 5. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > >> >> >> from > > >> >> >> Kashmir > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS > > and > > >> we > > >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to > me > > >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani > have > > a > > >> >> >> list of > > >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making > > here > > >> >> >> that I > > >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not > have > > >> this > > >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he > > should > > >> be > > >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 6. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > > >> >> >> persons' > > >> >> >> status > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know > what > > I > > >> >> >> mean." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree > > with > > >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What > does > > >> >> >> "Chinese > > >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > > >> Kuomintang > > >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural > preference > > >> for > > >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is > > >> >> >> referring to > > >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > > >> specifically > > >> >> >> those > > >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the > > >> >> >> government > > >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people > he > > >> >> >> would > > >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > > >> critics > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > > >> government > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone > > on > > >> >> >> record > > >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > > >> government > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > > Government > > >> of > > >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > > >> baseless. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 7. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > > >> >> >> persons' > > >> >> >> status > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > > MASTERS > > >> >> >> TONE...." > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's > > insinuation > > >> >> >> that > > >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act > > at > > >> the > > >> >> >> behest of their masters. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> ----------------- > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> __________________________ > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day > (from > > >> the > > >> >> >> date > > >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable > > proof > > >> >> >> for > > >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > > >> >> >> scurrilous > > >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one > day. > > >> Or, > > >> >> >> if > > >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated > > and > > >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request > >  the > > >> >> >> list > > >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > > >> >> >> immediate > > >> >> >> effect. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been > in > > >> >> >> favour of > > >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year > and > > a > > >> >> >> half) > > >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies > (in > > >> >> >> serious > > >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their > > >> >> >> rubbish > > >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his > expulsion > > on > > >> >> >> grounds > > >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > > >> benefit > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' > especially > > >> when > > >> >> >> I do > > >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in > > anger > > >> >> >> need a > > >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, > Aditya > > >> Raj > > >> >> >> Kaul > > >> >> >> and their allies. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm > that > > >> they > > >> >> >> can > > >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > > >> >> >> conjecture. > > >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > > >> arguments > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > > >> personal > > >> >> >> lives > > >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, > > spread > > >> >> >> poison > > >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. > There > > >> have > > >> >> >> to > > >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by > a > > >> >> >> foreign > > >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I > am, > > or > > >> I > > >> >> >> am > > >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > > >> suggests > > >> >> >> that I > > >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > > >> statement > > >> >> >> about > > >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way > > to > > >> >> >> settle > > >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the > allegation > > >> >> >> proves > > >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false > witness. > > >> The > > >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very > serious > > >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign > > >> power' > > >> >> >> in > > >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. > > Such > > >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is > > libel > > >> and > > >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on > > the > > >> >> >> grounds > > >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself > and > > >> the > > >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame > a > > >> >> >> person or > > >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > > >> conceal. > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> regards > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Shuddha > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> >> > List archive: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > ******************************************** > > > >      Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up > now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai..net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 106 ******************************************** Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 17:38:56 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:38:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from the list ? Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in the forum but pull the strings ? Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy fought ? Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not want us to expose yasin malik ? Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets defeated everytime they make a terrorist a hero ? Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a well plotted Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are on my side . The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this group is still blind ! From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 17:56:06 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:26:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lies withdrawn & Accusations questioned In-Reply-To: <470712.64601.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <313172.51537.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Gowhar   I do not comment on every single posting about Kashmir. Even when I feel strongly about something that might have been mentioned, I do not always comment. Sometimes I do.   This List is one such public forum of record that (as far as we know today) gets archived for 'ever' and therefore will serve as a very convienient and easily accesible reference library for all such subjects/topics/issues that get mentioned on it. Non-factual information on it needs to be challenged.   If one were to use on the Web the search string of "amarnath land row" and "deaths" it would throw up your mail saying that "The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row".   That is not opinion but information. Incorrect information. Thank you for having withdrawn it.   You might still be smarting (understandably so) by my abuse directed at you, but that does not mean you should misrepresent what I had written.   We have both regretted the death of 'innocents'. What makes your use of that word sincere and my use as being loaded with other meanings as suggested by you?   Not only did I write about the deaths of 'innocents':   """"""" It is true that 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized society """""   Going further than that, I also wrote about the deaths of others who (by whichever standard and from whichever point of view) might not be seen as "innocents. I wrote:   """""" I consider even the deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, regretable and avoidable."""""   If it is not clear from the above and I need to spell it out; For me any death (in context) is unfortunate, sad, regretable, avoidable, unacceptable.   Since it is the season for talking about "Accusations" on this List, let me come to those directed by you at me.   1. In the earlier mail you seem to suggest that you were a 'special target of abuse' because you are a "Kashmiri Muslim". I see it as an accusation that you need to prove.   In your first post, neither did you identify yourself as being a Kashmiri Muslim, nor did I recognise you as being one when I 'abused' you. Isnt that correct?   On the other hand, without any such reference to myself by me, you gave me the identity-tag of a "Brahmin". Alongwith it you gave me attributes of attitudes of various kinds of 'hates'. You had no justification for doing so.     My attack on you and the 'abuse' was at you as the author of the words you had posted. You as a person and not at any identity-tag you may carry or want to be recognised by.   2. You do need to prove all the "Accusations" directed at me:   - "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and inferior"; - "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; - "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and abuse"; - "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for abuse". Gowhar, you are so very wide-off-the-mark on every one of those accusations that it is amusing. If nothing else, my postings on this List testify to that, so do not bother to defend your accusations. I excuse you.   Kshmendra     --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli wrote: From: gowhar fazli Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal Abuse... To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:01 PM Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has bettered mine. I thank him for his work of genius. In fact, between the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality depending on where they come from, and take moral positions. To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5" figure and replace it with "scores of people", "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has become a norm" or "extraordinary number"... For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less, is equally criminal (notice he puts the word 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is innocent!) Killing a couple of hundred more or less does not make a very big difference to the immorality of shooting on crowds to force them indoors. The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim) and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am glad they are both physically safe... for now. > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim > wrote: > > > From: inder salim > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to > spitting and verbal Abuse... > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that is > the > > question: A > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and Kshmendra > ---- ( > > keeping in > > mind that the facts are stranger than fiction, but > the > > reverse can > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet > theirs > > only ) > > > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about exact > > statistics of > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in > Kashmir. > > Even Panun > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, since > late > > nineties, > > should have given a breather to India to bring about a > > serious > > dialogue. But what do they do? > > > > Kshmendra: I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young > > woman > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats she is > > receiving... > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I know > of > > so many of > > them who have used and subverted democratic > institutions > > for their own > > interest. > > > > Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though I > agree in > > part with yours. > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily > > basis since > > Amarnath land row. > > > > ( I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and Cosmic SHE will be > > talking to each > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in kashmir > ?) > > > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair. > > > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine. > > > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' have > died > > in the 'valley' > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider > any > > such death as > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized > society. > > But yours, > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the > 'theatre > > of false propaganda. > > > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom you > do > > not like or > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a > > 'moron' > > > > Kshmendra : for sure you are a "moron' and a > > "filthy liar" and fully > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'. > > > > Gowhar : 'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how > Kashmiris > > should behave > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership has to > > suite India's > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' that > the > > basic > > conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to > > engender such a > > collectively have been systematically removed from > Kashmir; > > Just to > > keep people from demonstrating for Azadi or > protesting > > against > > elections… > > > > > > > > to be continued.... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili > > > > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is > something > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in 'aside' > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of > > information. In this case your 'filthy lie' > of: > > > > > > """""" The valley > has > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since > Amarnath > > land row.""""""" > > > > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2) > > > > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy lie' > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might be > it's > > author, whether in a factual representation or in a > > fictional one. > > > > > > If you are not the protagonist "HE" in > your > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed about > any > > comments directed at "HIM". > > > > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to > describe > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) is a > word > > that I have not introduced into this List to describe > > someone like you. > > > > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in your > > conversation piece then for sure you are a > "moron' > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of > what > > you call 'abuse'. > > > > > > You whine that I should have placed 'counter > > figures' of what you think would be "a dozen > more > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine > considering > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) realistic > > 'death count' and the 'figures' > suggested by > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count of 2 > to > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. > There, one > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot. > > > > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started > sometime > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since it > started. > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to 5', > the > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. Do > you see > > what an 'idiot' you are? > > > > > > In this particular case let me distort the > application > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The "Latin > legal > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui > negat > > (the > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who > > denies)" In this case your assertion of > > """""" The valley has > seen two > > to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath > land > > row.""""""" > > > > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to place > me > > into a compartment for which you have the identifying > > construct of "abused as a child"; > "severe > > mental imbalance"; "(needing) psychological > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are > impure > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as to > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current objects > of hate > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as special > > targets for abuse". > > > > > > This is one more 'theatrical device' in > the > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If questioned > about > > "filthy lies" for which you have no > justifiable, > > credible and believable response you attack the > questioner > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her that > will > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with suspicion and > shift > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'. > > > > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me can > only > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not excuse > your > > "filthy lie" > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli > > wrote: > > > > > > From: gowhar fazli > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to > spitting > > and verbal Abuse... > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM > > > > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... > > Kshmendra's use of this language > > > against me on the readers list suggests he might > have > > been abused as a child. > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being > abused as > > a child can create severe > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among > people. It > > might be high time for > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help > > because it has bearing on his > > > quality of life and of those around him. > > > > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the > 'HE' > > in the dialogue I > > > posted... in which case he could have placed his > > counter figures (say a couple > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently > asked > > for the source....There was > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive. > > > > > > The other more profound explanation could be that > it > > forms part of his > > > socialisation and culture. Brahmin's have > long > > held it to be their right to > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and > inferior. > > So in this light, cases > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not like or > > calling somebody a 'filthy > > > liar' or a 'moron' might be an > attempt to > > reclaim that right and > > > culture against the current community they hate, > or to > > use a turn of phrase, > > > want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be the > current > > objects of hate and insult > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most > assertive > > among them, they happen to > > > be the special targets of abuse. > > > > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about exact > > statistics of the dead, but two > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers, > that > > the democratic exercise > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the > collective > > good... His, that the > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and the > > atmosphere to engender such a > > > collectivity have been systematically removed > Kashmir. > > > > > > Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on > > this? > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A > filthy > > lie by Gowhar Fazli. > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > , > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli > > >> > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the > conversation > > you have > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are > the > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy liar. > > >> > > >> I refer to the statement: > > >> > > >> """""" The > valley > > has seen > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > since > > Amarnath land > > >> > row.""""""" > > >> > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have died > in > > the > > >> 'valley' since the start of the > Amarnath > > Land Row. I > > >> consider any such death as sad, unfortunate > and > > unacceptable > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even the > > deaths of > > >> those who have consciously chosen the path of > > violence to > > >> further their agenda as being sad, > unfortunate, > > regretable > > >> and avoidable. > > >> > > >> But that does not mean that 'morons' > like > > >> you should have the licence to float blatant > lies > > on this > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with the > smug > > >> thought that you will not be questioned. > > >> > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you a > > 'filthy > > >> liar'? > > >> > > >> I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 > to 5 > > deaths > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the start > of > > the > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any > credible > > news source > > >> of your choice. A credible news source would > for > > sure have > > >> a presence on the Web where your statement > can be > > confirmed > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being a > > 'filthy > > >> lie' as I have called it. > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> From: gowhar fazli > > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah! > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > >> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM > > >> > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! > (Commenting > > on my > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!) > > >> > > >> HE: :) > > >> > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and > > bollywud magic > > >> that day on tv > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and > > kisses....wah!!! > > >> > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one in > > Kashmir n one > > >> in US! > > >> > > >> SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look > at > > the > > >> conduct of political > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for each > > other....more > > >> to blame is also > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream > > India......in fact in > > >> south Asia, the > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote bank > and > > slur....we > > >> still have to grow as > > >> a democracy...remember we are only 60..as > compared > > to US > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly > they > > blame > > >> the Indian govt of > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a > young > > woman > > >> contesting from > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is > > receiving... what > > >> does the Hurriyat want > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them > who > > have used > > >> and subverted > > >> democratic institutions for their own > interest. U > > know the > > >> major draw back in > > >> our part of the world is that we do not have > the > > courage > > >> for self correctness, > > >> self introspection.....USA did that....they > have > > brought in > > >> change...I admire > > >> that... > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... > > >> > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I > agree > > in part > > >> with yours > > >> > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call > for > > Jamia > > >> Chalo for killing of 5 > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... > > >> > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people > protested > > in Kashmir > > >> for Azadi and were > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the protests... > > Kashmir is in > > >> no mood for election > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed... > without > > any > > >> negotiation with the > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the > government > > can offer > > >> is to impose a > > >> conventional election to meet its deadline to > show > > that all > > >> is well in Kashmir. > > >> It is not. > > >> I think the bigger problem is this not the > > morality of > > >> our local politicians. > > >> the conditions we live in can only produce > the > > kind of > > >> politicians we presently > > >> have. > > >> USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for > eight > > years > > >> before it was time for > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides > how > > Kashmiris > > >> should behave and who > > >> should be in power. > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite India's > > self-image its > > >> foreign policy and > > >> morality. > > >> > > >> SHE: you forget that people who are standing > for > > elections > > >> ( record number > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each other > , > > their party > > >> workers shouting anti > > >> India slogans ) or people wanting to vote > are > > also > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for > > different > > >> reasons. They are > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want > to > > vote are > > >> Kashmiris too...so are > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are > Ladhakis , > > Poocnhis, > > >> etc who want to > > >> vote...no one is shying away from resolving > the > > >> issue...spell out the agenda > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why > intimidate > > them, > > >> kill them...why instill > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say > they..I > > mean all > > >> those, religious > > >> groups, media, separatist so called > > nationalist.... who > > >> want to build their own > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or > anywhere > > >> else...as I said we need to > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues is > bit > > >> difficult... > > >> > > >> > > >> HE: I didn't forget them... Ladakhis, > Pandits, > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who > > >> want to vote for various reasons... Yet > daily > > killing to > > >> keep people to keep > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or > protesting > > against > > >> elections (peacefully I > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily armed > > security forces > > >> from by lanes as > > >> serious violence especially when you are > > permanently held > > >> under section 144) > > >> cannot be justified because some people there > or > > elsewhere > > >> want to vote. The > > >> context in which elections are happening is > pure > > >> imposition... more of what has > > >> been happening all along. > > >> Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling > out > > agendas > > >> is not possible and > > >> largely the establishment which wields power > in > > Kashmir is > > >> responsible for > > >> maintaining such a situation there. There > is > > too much > > >> intelligence > > >> interference... too much security structure > to > > allow people > > >> to breathe... let > > >> alone have a Democratic process. Too much of > > humiliation > > >> on the daily basis to > > >> let a person feel human enough... Even > those who > > were > > >> alienated from religion > > >> or primordial identities are being pushed to > adopt > > these > > >> for bare survival. In > > >> wake of this the only articulation that is > > possible is hate > > >> or violence. You > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and ask > him/her > > to talk > > >> peace. They might > > >> oblige until you get off... but then hate you > with > > all the > > >> intensity they can > > >> muster soon after that. > > >> I think the situation is like this... We > have > > beaten > > >> Kashmiris to the point of > > >> making them into brutes... and now we justify > the > > >> continuity of violence by > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and > deserve > > it! > > >> Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir > since > > late > > >> nineties should have > > >> given a breather to India to bring about a > serious > > >> dialogue. But what do they > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is the > solution > > and > > >> squander the chance. > > >> We cannot maintain the facade of moral > preachers > > after all > > >> that has happened > > >> in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in shame > and > > let the > > >> people have their say. > > >> Even though what they decide might not be to > our > > liking and > > >> in our opinion > > >> disastrous for them. Too often our personal > > interests get > > >> enmeshed with our > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment such > that we > > cannot > > >> see what is actually > > >> happening to people. > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing > judgments > > on the > > >> people of Kashmir and > > >> demonizing them. I hope more of the civil > society > > >> activists who engage with > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so. > > >> > > >> When you refer to intimidation and killing i > am > > surprised > > >> that you miss out the > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right > now... the > > CRPF! > > >> You see we percieve > > >> different realities because of where each of > us is > > located. > > >> The valley has seen > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > since > > Amarnath > > >> land row. This seems to > > >> be the current policy. CRPF is communalised. > I > > have my > > >> batchmates within the > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts of > how the > > force > > >> percieves ordinary > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or > > humiliated for > > >> no reason but for > > >> what they are. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and > > the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 18:11:53 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:41:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <342826.66454.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan I didn't want to get into this. But here is a small point. Please do not forget that we are on the Internet, where, even though most things come free - but as they say in America: there is no such thing as a free lunch. So, while Sarai list maybe a free space for you to speak out loud, someone, somewhere is paying for the server space and the bandwidth (I don't mean paying in that "getting paid" sense. But if you insist on the "getting paid" angle, then even you are using that "foreign kick-back" by posting your messages on this paid server). Nothing is free. Even when we sign up on Yahoo, Google or any other free service, they get a contract signed from us (which I'm sure none of us read fully) saying that they have the right to remove you from their free service as and when they feel like. Now, I don't want to compare the institution of Sarai/CSDS with that sort of corporatism, but I am sure every institution has the right to maintain a certain decorum in a public debate. When you subscribed to the reader-list, they must have sent you a message about what this list is all about, and that you need to follow a certain decorum. By accepting their subscription, you have agreed to abide by the decorum. If you don't, then it is their right to remove. Even if we consider the reader-list as a truly public forum with no institutional belonging, then, the opinion of the rest of the list-members should suffice to remove you or anyone who crosses limits of decency. We can have a referendum/poll here, and let the list members vote for or against you. Yousuf --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? > To: "Sarai" , "we wi" , "rajendra bhat" > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:38 PM > Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from > the list ? > > Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > > Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in > the forum but pull > the strings ? > > Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy > fought ? > > Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not > want us to expose > yasin malik ? > > Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > > Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets > defeated everytime > they make a terrorist a hero ? > > Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > > Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > > is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > > Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > > I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > > In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a > well plotted > Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are > on my side . > > The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this > group is still > blind ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 18:14:40 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:14:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=92s?= =?windows-1252?q?_Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <689083.49700.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <1fd66c110811100159m67763517tea88069d0e71d1f9@mail.gmail.com> <689083.49700.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811100444s5c804dd8p650b7a43658fd855@mail.gmail.com> Well, on the issue of MF Hussain's return to home, we can not expect BJP & Co. to declare him a national asset. but what is shocking for all of us that Congress and Left too have not done anything substantial in this regard. Their silence is equally killing. by now, in the least, they should have awarded Bharat Ratna to MF Hussain, pity that such a great man is in need of security in India. it is a national shame love is On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Dear Shivam > As you may have noticed, I also posted this news to the Jamia Millia alumni group (which has hundreds of current and ex-students of Jamia) for a specific reason. Since you have talked about Hussain offending both religions, I would like to mention an interesting (and also disturbing) debate we've been having here. For everyone's information, Delhi's Jamia Millia Islamia (a central university) has recently inaugurated a brand new art gallery named after none other than Maqbool Fida Hussain, a very bold step not only in the current controversy of Hussain's nude deity pictures, but also in the context of Jamia's rather orthodox history. Curently the gallery is showing paintings of several well-known Indian artists including Satish Gujral, Hussain and others. The gallery was visited during the recently concluded Talimi mela (educational fair) by thousands of people including burqa-clad women and bearded clerics coming from Jamia's neighborhood. > > The debate that has started recently in Jamia (especially on the alumni e-group) shows that a majority of Muslim students are unhappy on two accounts: (1) Hussain paints Hindu deities, which is un-Islamic any way, and (2) he hurts the sentiments of Hindus, which is indirectly a problem for "us". So why should we have a gallery named after him. It was interesting that a few extremist "Hindu" and "Muslim" students actually came down to agree entirely on this point, and both of them wrote against the lone pseudo-secularist. Each of them kept asking readers to "go and visit Hussain's hurtful paintings on the net to decide for yourself" - a large chunk of our youth getting educated entirely on the net has probably never visited a good arts gallery. > > I will try to forward you some of the discussions on the forum, in which we talked for example about nudity, stretching it all the way to Adam and Eve, and so on. But ultimately, it was decided that "whatever is bad for Muslims, is bad for all humanity" and that's the decision of the jury. > > Unfortunate times for the art. I am jittery about the future of this arts gallery - from both sides. See this: > > http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/5690.html > > Yousuf > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Shivam V wrote: > >> From: Shivam V >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals >> To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, jamia_millia_alumni_directory at yahoogroups.com >> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 3:29 PM >> Dear Yousuf, >> >> Many thanks for posting this. Naeem Mohaiemen had also >> posted a link >> to this story two days ago. >> >> I find it very interesting that it is not just Hindu >> fanatics but >> Muslim ones too whom Husain has managed to >> 'offend'. >> >> > But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the >> artist, a symbol of >> > nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his >> fellow Muslims. >> >> When both A and B hate C, it is the best possible evidence >> of C's >> non-partisanship. There could not be a better answer to the >> charge of >> Husain's 3 paintings being 'anti-Hindu'. >> >> I also find it interesting that he was born in "a >> Shiite subsect that >> calls itself Suleimanis". That makes him part of a >> 'minority within a >> minority within a minority'. What an irony then, that >> he should be >> made out to be a Hindu-hating "Muslim" >> "fundamentalist". >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Yousuf >> wrote: >> > An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals >> > >> > By SOMINI SENGUPTA >> > New York Times, November 8, 2008 >> > >> > DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Maqbool Fida Husain, >> India's most famous painter, is afraid to go home. >> > >> > Mr. Husain is a Muslim who is fond of painting Hindu >> goddesses, sometimes portraying them nude. That obsession >> has earned him the ire of a small but organized cadre of >> Hindu nationalists. They have attacked galleries that >> exhibit his work, accused him in court of "promoting >> enmity" among faiths and, on one occasion, offered an >> $11 million reward for his head. >> > >> > In September, the country's highest court offered >> him an unexpected reprieve, dismissing one of the cases >> against him with the blunt reminder that Hindu iconography, >> including ancient temples, is replete with nudity. Still, >> the artist, 93 and increasingly frail, is not taking any >> chances. For two years, he has lived here in self-imposed >> exile, amid opulently sterile skyscrapers. He intends to >> remain, at least for now. "They can put me in a >> jungle," Mr. Husain said gamely. "Still, I can >> create." >> > >> > Freedom of expression has frequently, and by some >> accounts, increasingly, come under fire in India, as the >> country tries to balance the dictates of its secular >> democracy with the easily inflamed religious and ethnic >> passions of its multitudes. >> > >> > The result is a strange anomaly in a nation known for >> its vibrant, freewheeling political culture. The government >> is compelled to ensure respect for India's diversity and >> at the same time prevent one group from pouncing on another >> for a perceived offense. Ramachandra Guha, a historian, >> calls it "perhaps the fundamental challenge of >> governance in India." >> > >> > The rise of an intense brand of identity politics, >> with India's many communities mobilizing for political >> power, has intensified the problem. An accusation that a >> piece of art or writing is offensive is an easy way to whip >> up the sentiments of a particular caste, faith or tribe, >> Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an Indian political scientist, points >> out. He calls it "offense mongering." >> > >> > There have been isolated episodes of violence, and >> many more threats, often prompting the government to invoke >> British-era laws that allow it to ban works of art and >> literature. India was among the first countries to ban >> Salman Rushdie's novel "The Satanic Verses." >> > >> > In March, Taslima Nasreen, a Bangladeshi novelist >> living in exile in the Communist-controlled state of West >> Bengal, was forced to leave for several months after a >> Muslim political party objected to her work. >> > >> > Meanwhile, in the western state of Gujarat, controlled >> by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, a political >> psychologist, Ashis Nandy, was charged with "promoting >> enmity between different groups." His offense was to >> write an opinion article in The Times of India criticizing >> the victory of the Hindu nationalists in state elections; >> the case is pending. >> > >> > "That politics has gotten out of hand," Mr. >> Mehta, the political scientist, argued. "It puts >> liberal democracy at risk. If we want social stability we >> need a consensus on what our freedoms are." >> > >> > Even threats of violence from offended parties are a >> powerful deterrent. In Mumbai, formerly Bombay, where Mr. >> Husain lived for most of his life, a recent exhibition on >> Indian masters did not include his work. Nor did India's >> first modern art fair, held in New Delhi in August. The same >> week in the same city, a small show featuring reproductions >> of Mr. Husain's work was vandalized. >> > >> > Of Mr. Husain's exceptionally large body of work >> — at least 20,000 pieces, he guesses — there are three >> that have angered his foes. Two are highly stylized pencil >> drawings of Durga, the mother goddess, and Saraswati, the >> goddess of the arts, both faceless and nude. The third is a >> map of India rendered as a female nude, her head in the >> Himalayas, a breast jutting out into the Arabian Sea. Mr. >> Husain insists that nudity symbolizes purity. He has >> repeatedly said that he had not meant to offend any faith. >> But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the >> artist, a symbol of nonviolence — at Mecca, created a >> ruckus among his fellow Muslims. >> > >> > Harsh Goenka, a Mumbai-based industrialist and one of >> the country's most important collectors, has a similar >> Husain nude, an oil painting of the goddess Saraswati. As >> "an average normal Hindu," he says he is appalled >> that Mr. Husain is not safe in his country. >> > >> > "Keeping him away is, in a way, showing the >> weakness of the system, that we cannot protect the rights of >> the citizen," Mr. Goenka said. "If he has done a >> crime, punish him. If he hasn't, let him live here with >> dignity and peace of mind." >> > >> > Mr. Husain calls the current Congress Party-led >> government too weak-kneed to offer him protection from those >> who might harm him. Mostly, though, he cautions against >> making too much of his case. India, he insists, is >> fundamentally "tolerant." >> > >> > Not least, he said, he has always been a vagabond, >> sleeping on the Mumbai streets during his impoverished >> youth, wandering through Europe to study Rembrandt, or >> bouncing, as he does now, among several lavish apartments >> and villas here in Dubai — or rather, cruising among them, >> in one of his five costly thrill machines, including a >> lipstick-red Ferrari, his current favorite. Mr. Husain is >> India's best-paid artist. Last March, at a >> Christie's auction, his "Battle of Ganga and >> Jamuna," part of a 27-canvas series on the Mahabharata, >> the Hindu epic, fetched $1.6 million. >> > >> > "I am working, it's O.K.," he said. >> "If things get all right, I'll go. If they >> don't, so be it. What can I do?" >> > >> > And then he quoted the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a >> Pakistani who went into exile in the late 1970s during >> President Muhammad Zia ul-Haq's regime and who wrote >> about missing the animosity of his enemies as much as the >> affection of friends. "Of course," he conceded, >> "the heart is there." >> > >> > On the morning of Id al-Fitr, Islam's holiest day, >> Mr. Husain sat in the back seat of his Bentley as it whizzed >> past a row of construction sites, taking calls from Mumbai >> on his new iPhone. >> > >> > Back home on the same day, his granddaughter Rakshanda >> was getting engaged. It was the first major family function >> he had missed since his exile. "Such an auspicious >> day," he murmured. "Anyway, we will have a >> ceremony here again." >> > >> > In Mumbai, it had been his custom to host an annual Id >> al-Fitr breakfast for his community, a Shiite subsect that >> calls itself Suleimanis. This morning, he hosted one here, >> too, at a community hall with steaming plates of mutton and >> flatbread. A stream of people came to pay their respects, >> taking his gnarled right hand, placing it above their eyes, >> one after the other, then to their lips. Mr. Husain, a >> master of flamboyance, stood beaming in a green silk jacket >> embroidered with motifs from his paintings, including >> several voluptuous, scantily clad women. >> > >> > He is now working on two ambitious series: one on >> Indian civilization, to be mounted in London, the second on >> Arab civilization, which will be exhibited in Qatar. >> > >> > Here in Dubai, he is at work on a whimsical >> installation titled "Form Meets Function," which >> will incorporate his five luxury cars, including a sound >> piece he intends to create using their engines. >> > >> > At sundown, he climbed into the passenger seat of the >> Ferrari, pounded the dashboard and instructed his driver to >> hit the gas pedal. The engine revved, and he squealed in >> delight. He said he had stopped driving several years ago, >> after cataract surgery. >> > >> > He does not have a studio in Dubai. There are easels >> in each of the homes he has bought for his extended clan. He >> spends a night here, a night there. >> > >> > One of them is an 11th-floor apartment with >> spectacular, south-facing views of jagged skyscrapers under >> construction. It is filled with dozens of small canvases >> from the 1950s that he had given to a Czech woman he had >> once intended to marry, though she turned him down. >> > >> > She found him recently and returned his paintings. >> "They belong to India," she told him. >> > >> > This afternoon, recalling the story, Mr. Husain said >> he would eventually have to take them home. >> "Temporarily," he mused, "they are >> here." >> > >> > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/world/asia/09india.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mail at shivamvij dot com > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 10 18:27:45 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:57:45 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0811091918x1e25a62i7baaf510da683b2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ade4a8f0811091918x1e25a62i7baaf510da683b2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <137FCBC5-8E2D-486B-882F-9D2FDF7D84AC@earthlink.net> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth University. Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. OK - response: I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public discourse? No. If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage (as Nader's comment was). I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost in the poor choice of rhetoric. I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support with his comments. in peace, Paul On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe > that was > made in an interview on Fox tv. > From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term > "Uncle > Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a > servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the > white > man's game and his domination but seeking something better for oneself > within that. > > The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", by > Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, > silently > suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom > he > continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor > rejects. > > If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle > Tom" a > few times. > > Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. > I don't > think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a > specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say > certain > things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is > ultimately > a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was > surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says how > marginalised he was in the mainstream media. > > Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say > certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole > Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his > "open > letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's > bending over > backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- > based > Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. > > Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has > to be > played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in > that > game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think > that > "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like > to think > that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and > people can > by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say > what has > to be said, and yet prevail. > > I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, > sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to > Obama. He is > challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the > expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that > one's > harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies > like > these, who needs friends!" > > For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on > Obama > (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a > blog > post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. > > Best > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > cuckooscall.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 18:32:37 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:32:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 In-Reply-To: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811100502nc18ee44rcd2cd56ef3d99029@mail.gmail.com> i quote Rajendra Bhat "the list will be extinct soon with only left thoughts and praise of mutual admiration society in view" well, dear Rajendra Bhat, the extinction of List without you, as you presume, will still be less painful than so many other species which disappear from the world, please dont worry about the List. i quote Rajendra Bhat again "where the raped nun meets none to seek justice.?" Dear Rajendra ji how about this gross insensitivity towards a woman who suffered the worst.... is this the standard Hindu way of talking to a woman who might be still in shock ? this is all sad On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Oh, now it is" we " versus they. ? > > I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to seek justice.? > > Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again and again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves is that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and other terror supporters on the list. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 > From: "Aarti Sethi" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: sarai list , we wi , > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Message-ID: > <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but > bleats to offer. > > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as > well. > > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. > > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. > > Warm regards > (as it seems for the last time) > > Aarti > > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any > private communications with you at all. > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Lastly, >> >> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which >> I can understand. >> >> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a >> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >> member.. >> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] >> >> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >> >> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the >> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double >> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my >> ideology. >> >> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand >> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in >> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am >> really a hurdle. >> >> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >> >> regards >> >> Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> > Kirdar, >> > >> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes >> him >> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >> > >> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this >> > group. >> > >> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >> > >> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >> > >> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have >> one. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy >> >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >> >> is ticking. >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Kirdar, >> >> > >> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> >> from . >> >> > >> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of >> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he >> >> > considers himself one. >> >> > >> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> >> Geelani >> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >> >> that >> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> >> investigated.What >> >> > makes the two different ? >> >> > >> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >> certain >> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in >> >> all >> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he >> co >> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and >> >> non >> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> >> > >> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just >> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this >> >> list >> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >> >> ..... >> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> >> himself >> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> >> > >> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , >> >> Panun >> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong >> >> with >> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> >> However i >> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of >> the >> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member >> >> as we >> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >> advise. >> >> But >> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> >> these. >> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >> >> odds. >> >> > >> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits >> >> world >> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle >> >> the >> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> >> > >> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >> Chinese >> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does >> it >> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> >> > supporter of that ? >> >> > >> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is >> >> to >> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> >> undergone >> >> > Exodus and genocide. >> >> > >> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> >> myself >> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >> >> what >> >> > not to word. >> >> > >> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >> challenge >> >> a >> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and >> >> > others be removed. >> >> > >> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >> >> they do >> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> >> > >> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >> >> > >> >> > Regards >> >> > >> >> > Pawan Durani >> >> > >> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >> foreign >> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >> think >> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >> pawan.durani at gmail.com >> >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Dear All, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> >> exposed. >> >> >> > The >> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> >> >> > Aditya , >> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> >> nothing >> >> >> > but >> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> >> >> > Shivam >> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Pawan >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> >> list, >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >> >> and >> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >> with >> >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >> goon >> >> >> >> allies >> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >> this >> >> >> >> list, >> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> >> associated >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya >> Raj >> >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel >> or >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >> doing >> >> so >> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> >> masters' >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >> ethical >> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> >> position >> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> >> account >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >> being >> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> >> agent, >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> >> when >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they >> are >> >> >> >> being >> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> >> >> >> local >> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >> foreign >> >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. >> It >> >> is >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide >> but >> >> >> >> fails >> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar >> >> on >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >> >> for >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> >> >> >> these >> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to >> be >> >> >> >> doing >> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> >> beholden >> >> >> >> to. >> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting >> >> to >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >> their >> >> own >> >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >> doesn't >> >> >> >> agree >> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >> >> when >> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >> >> line >> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >> >> has >> >> >> >> been >> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >> accused >> >> of >> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >> specific >> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >> called >> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >> >> this >> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >> casually >> >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing >> what >> >> we >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' >> is >> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing >> >> to >> >> >> >> take >> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> >> think >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >> purchase >> >> at >> >> >> >> such >> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >> >> hack >> >> >> >> who >> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >> >> leavings >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one >> is >> >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> >> >> payments >> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing >> on >> >> the >> >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >> >> the >> >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> >> >> professional >> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> >> especially >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing >> >> to >> >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >> >> thrown >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >> >> then >> >> >> >> we >> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >> think >> >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >> quote >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> >> taken, >> >> >> >> so >> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >> >> follow >> >> >> >> each >> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> >> capitalized >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >> >> case >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come >> out >> >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >> backed >> >> by >> >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> >> how >> >> >> >> he >> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> >> >> >> stand >> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> >> character >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >> >> know >> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> >> count >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL >> TIME >> >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >> neither >> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >> >> List >> >> >> >> on any >> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want >> >> to >> >> >> >> know >> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >> >> List >> >> >> >> is a >> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> >> substantiate >> >> >> >> this, >> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what >> I >> >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >> >> this. >> >> >> >> In >> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate >> this >> >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> >> list, >> >> >> >> or >> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >> JOB, >> >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> >> support >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >> from >> >> >> >> reading >> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> >> >> because >> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, >> and >> >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in >> the >> >> >> >> way he >> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> Displacement >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS >> and >> >> we >> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have >> a >> >> >> >> list of >> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making >> here >> >> >> >> that I >> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >> >> this >> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >> should >> >> be >> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what >> I >> >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree >> with >> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> >> Kuomintang >> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >> >> for >> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> >> specifically >> >> >> >> those >> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> >> government >> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> >> >> >> would >> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> >> critics >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> government >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone >> on >> >> >> >> record >> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> >> government >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >> Government >> >> of >> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >> MASTERS >> >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >> insinuation >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act >> at >> >> the >> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> >> the >> >> >> >> date >> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >> proof >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >> >> Or, >> >> >> >> if >> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated >> and >> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >> the >> >> >> >> list >> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and >> a >> >> >> >> half) >> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> >> >> >> serious >> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion >> on >> >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> >> benefit >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >> >> when >> >> >> >> I do >> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >> anger >> >> >> >> need a >> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >> >> Raj >> >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> >> they >> >> >> >> can >> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> >> arguments >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> >> personal >> >> >> >> lives >> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >> spread >> >> >> >> poison >> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >> >> have >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, >> or >> >> I >> >> >> >> am >> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> >> suggests >> >> >> >> that I >> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> >> statement >> >> >> >> about >> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way >> to >> >> >> >> settle >> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> >> >> >> proves >> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >> >> The >> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> >> power' >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >> Such >> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >> libel >> >> and >> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on >> the >> >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >> >> the >> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> >> >> person or >> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> > List archive: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > ******************************************** > > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 18:35:56 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:35:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <342826.66454.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> <342826.66454.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100505y90135f7je2e4a2e234b8bf70@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf , I do believe that my knowledge about Internet is probably better than yours. I am into IT services only and am in www world since I was using a 14.4 kbps dial up browser and the text was in dos mode. You may have heard of this , and I am sure never experienced it. Coming back to accusations , I am as guilty " if it assumed by some" as someone else is.As i have said , i do not challenge a moderator and neither do i like someone challenging me in the group i run. That group is almost 10 years old. If someone challenges my cause by overtly or covertly supporting or sympathising with my tormentors , i wont sit back. I dont know what CSDS or whatever is ! It doesnt matter to me. You may continue to have vote for my expulsion, and that makes me remember castro , who once said "I would not vote for the mayor. It's not just because he didn't invite me to dinner, but because on my way into town from the airport there were such enormous potholes." Best regards pawan jai Andhra , Jai Hind On 11/10/08, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Pawan > I didn't want to get into this. But here is a small point. Please do not > forget that we are on the Internet, where, even though most things come free > - but as they say in America: there is no such thing as a free lunch. So, > while Sarai list maybe a free space for you to speak out loud, someone, > somewhere is paying for the server space and the bandwidth (I don't mean > paying in that "getting paid" sense. But if you insist on the "getting paid" > angle, then even you are using that "foreign kick-back" by posting your > messages on this paid server). > > Nothing is free. Even when we sign up on Yahoo, Google or any other free > service, they get a contract signed from us (which I'm sure none of us read > fully) saying that they have the right to remove you from their free service > as and when they feel like. Now, I don't want to compare the institution of > Sarai/CSDS with that sort of corporatism, but I am sure every institution > has the right to maintain a certain decorum in a public debate. When you > subscribed to the reader-list, they must have sent you a message about what > this list is all about, and that you need to follow a certain decorum. By > accepting their subscription, you have agreed to abide by the decorum. If > you don't, then it is their right to remove. > > Even if we consider the reader-list as a truly public forum with no > institutional belonging, then, the opinion of the rest of the list-members > should suffice to remove you or anyone who crosses limits of decency. We can > have a referendum/poll here, and let the list members vote for or against > you. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > From: Pawan Durani > > Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? > > To: "Sarai" , "we wi" , > "rajendra bhat" > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:38 PM > > Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from > > the list ? > > > > Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > > > > Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in > > the forum but pull > > the strings ? > > > > Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy > > fought ? > > > > Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not > > want us to expose > > yasin malik ? > > > > Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > > > > Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets > > defeated everytime > > they make a terrorist a hero ? > > > > Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > > > > Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > > > > is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > > > > Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > > > > I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > > > > In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a > > well plotted > > Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are > > on my side . > > > > The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this > > group is still > > blind ! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 18:40:35 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:40:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811100502nc18ee44rcd2cd56ef3d99029@mail.gmail.com> References: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70811100502nc18ee44rcd2cd56ef3d99029@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811100510k46f3f0b5pb0cae59ea4e9dd82@mail.gmail.com> Inder , Where does Hindu come here in his statement ? Or does this do approve and enjoy Hindu bashing..... Why does no one remind Inder of Hindu bashing ........ Isnt it a pattern here ? Pawan On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: > > i quote Rajendra Bhat > > "the list will be extinct soon with only left thoughts and praise of > mutual admiration society in view" > > well, dear Rajendra Bhat, the extinction of List without you, as you > presume, will still be less painful than so many other species which > disappear from the world, please dont worry about the List. > > i quote Rajendra Bhat again > > "where the raped nun meets none to seek justice.?" > > Dear Rajendra ji > > how about this gross insensitivity towards a woman who suffered the > worst.... is this the standard Hindu way of talking to a woman who > might be still in shock ? > > this is all sad > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat > wrote: > > Oh, now it is" we " versus they. ? > > > > I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more > citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its > citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in > kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to > seek justice.? > > > > Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again > and again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves > is that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is > functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and > other terror supporters on the list. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM > > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 > > From: "Aarti Sethi" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > > To: "Pawan Durani" > > Cc: sarai list , we wi , > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Message-ID: > > <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter > > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our > > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing > but > > bleats to offer. > > > > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If > we > > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it > > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate > > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not > > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as > > well. > > > > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. > The > > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put > > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not > the > > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) > where > > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. > > > > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations > > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask > yourself > > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, > rather > > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. > > > > Warm regards > > (as it seems for the last time) > > > > Aarti > > > > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any > > private communications with you at all. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > >> Lastly, > >> > >> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology > which > >> I can understand. > >> > >> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have > a > >> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any > >> member.. > >> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] > >> > >> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. > >> > >> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the > >> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than > double > >> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in > my > >> ideology. > >> > >> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can > understand > >> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe > in > >> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i > am > >> really a hurdle. > >> > >> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. > >> > >> regards > >> > >> Pawan Durani > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > > >> > Kirdar, > >> > > >> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes > >> him > >> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > >> > > >> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of > this > >> > group. > >> > > >> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > >> > > >> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > >> > > >> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > >> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt > have > >> one. > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear Pawan > >> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > >> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > >> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > >> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > >> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > >> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > >> >> > >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > >> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" > - > >> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > >> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > >> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > >> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > >> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > >> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy > >> >> about the plight of KPs. > >> >> > >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > >> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > >> >> is ticking. > >> >> > >> >> Kirdar > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Dear Kirdar, > >> >> > > >> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they > come > >> >> from . > >> >> > > >> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters > of > >> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless > he > >> >> > considers himself one. > >> >> > > >> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on > >> >> Geelani > >> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i > write > >> >> that > >> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > >> >> investigated.What > >> >> > makes the two different ? > >> >> > > >> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of > >> certain > >> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens > in > >> >> all > >> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless > he > >> co > >> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members > and > >> >> non > >> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > >> >> > > >> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates > just > >> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust > anyone > >> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on > this > >> >> list > >> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate > >> >> ..... > >> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see > >> >> himself > >> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... > >> >> > > >> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv > Sena , > >> >> Panun > >> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything > wrong > >> >> with > >> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. > >> >> However i > >> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of > >> the > >> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its > member > >> >> as we > >> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > >> advise. > >> >> But > >> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone > of > >> >> these. > >> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all > >> >> odds. > >> >> > > >> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > >> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri > pandits > >> >> world > >> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to > scuttle > >> >> the > >> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? > >> >> > > >> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > >> Chinese > >> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why > does > >> it > >> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself > a > >> >> > supporter of that ? > >> >> > > >> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom > is > >> >> to > >> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > >> >> undergone > >> >> > Exodus and genocide. > >> >> > > >> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I > >> >> myself > >> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word > and > >> >> what > >> >> > not to word. > >> >> > > >> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not > >> challenge > >> >> a > >> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha > and > >> >> > others be removed. > >> >> > > >> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , > so > >> >> they do > >> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > >> >> > > >> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > >> >> > > >> >> > Regards > >> >> > > >> >> > Pawan Durani > >> >> > > >> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dear Pawan > >> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific > >> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of > >> foreign > >> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support > such > >> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I > >> think > >> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half > that > >> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you > are > >> >> >> gone. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather > >> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I > >> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, > please > >> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations > you > >> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. > Maybe > >> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school > >> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Kirdar > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > >> pawan.durani at gmail.com > >> >> > > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > Dear All, > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain > >> >> exposed. > >> >> >> > The > >> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like > me , > >> >> >> > Aditya , > >> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are > >> >> nothing > >> >> >> > but > >> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder > , > >> >> >> > Shivam > >> >> >> > and Arti have to be. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Pawan > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Dear All, > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on > our > >> >> list, > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > >> >> >> >> Unfortunately it > >> >> >> >> is not without precedent. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun > Kashmir' > >> >> and > >> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced > >> with > >> >> >> >> detailed > >> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their > 'case', > >> >> >> >> habitually > >> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express > their > >> >> >> >> desires to > >> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena > >> goon > >> >> >> >> allies > >> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at > the > >> >> >> >> university. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in > >> this > >> >> >> >> list, > >> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > >> >> associated > >> >> >> >> with > >> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > >> >> >> >> insinuations > >> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from > Aditya > >> Raj > >> >> >> >> Kaul) > >> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK > gospel > >> or > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be > >> doing > >> >> so > >> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign > >> >> masters' > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > >> ethical > >> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of > these > >> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > >> >> position > >> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to > >> >> account > >> >> >> >> for > >> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of > >> being > >> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. > So, > >> >> >> >> 'writers' > >> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a > paid > >> >> agent, > >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was > made > >> >> when > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's > >> >> >> >> propoganda > >> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they > >> are > >> >> >> >> being > >> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or > their > >> >> >> >> local > >> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the > >> foreign > >> >> >> >> hand' > >> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that > Indian > >> >> >> >> politicians > >> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else > fails. > >> It > >> >> is > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect > with > >> >> >> >> reality and > >> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to > hide > >> but > >> >> >> >> fails > >> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia > Jabbar > >> >> on > >> >> >> >> to > >> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. > Durani > >> >> >> >> keeps, > >> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in > >> >> >> >> Kashmir' > >> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to > write > >> >> for > >> >> >> >> their > >> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one > that > >> >> >> >> these > >> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem > to > >> be > >> >> >> >> doing > >> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being > >> >> beholden > >> >> >> >> to. > >> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers > admitting > >> >> to > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as > >> their > >> >> own > >> >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who > >> doesn't > >> >> >> >> agree > >> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific > occasions > >> >> when > >> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK > hard > >> >> line > >> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, > Aarti > >> >> has > >> >> >> >> been > >> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > >> accused > >> >> of > >> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > >> specific > >> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been > >> called > >> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not > take > >> >> this > >> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > >> casually > >> >> >> >> either. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing > >> what > >> >> we > >> >> >> >> are > >> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or > 'terrorist' > >> is > >> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am > willing > >> >> to > >> >> >> >> take > >> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my > bank > >> >> >> >> accounts > >> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani > should > >> >> think > >> >> >> >> that > >> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for > >> purchase > >> >> at > >> >> >> >> such > >> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a > hired > >> >> hack > >> >> >> >> who > >> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and > >> >> leavings > >> >> >> >> from > >> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No > one > >> is > >> >> >> >> paid by > >> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. > No > >> >> >> >> payments > >> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of > writing > >> >> >> >> either. > >> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include > writing > >> on > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> Reader List either. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, > to > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> Sarai > >> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my > >> >> >> >> professional > >> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > >> >> especially > >> >> >> >> as > >> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been > willing > >> >> to > >> >> >> >> ignore > >> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been > >> >> thrown > >> >> >> >> in > >> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two > weeks, > >> >> then > >> >> >> >> we > >> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not > >> think > >> >> >> >> deserves > >> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each > >> quote > >> >> >> >> with > >> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is > >> >> taken, > >> >> >> >> so > >> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments > >> >> follow > >> >> >> >> each > >> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > >> >> capitalized > >> >> >> >> for > >> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> -------------------------- > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 1. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A > FOREIGN > >> >> >> >> COUNTRY , > >> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > >> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , > Parlaiment > >> >> case > >> >> >> >> are > >> >> >> >> being followed more closely. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and > their > >> >> links > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come > >> out > >> >> >> >> soon..." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and > the > >> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort > >> backed > >> >> by > >> >> >> >> a > >> >> >> >> foreign country' > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are > being > >> >> >> >> ascertained' > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details > of > >> >> how > >> >> >> >> he > >> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, > or > >> >> >> >> stand > >> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the > >> >> character > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like > to > >> >> know > >> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not > to > >> >> count > >> >> >> >> as > >> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 2. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL > >> TIME > >> >> >> >> JOB > >> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > >> neither > >> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the > Reader > >> >> List > >> >> >> >> on any > >> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I > want > >> >> to > >> >> >> >> know > >> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the > Reader > >> >> List > >> >> >> >> is a > >> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > >> >> substantiate > >> >> >> >> this, > >> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say > what > >> I > >> >> >> >> do, or > >> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid > for > >> >> this. > >> >> >> >> In > >> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate > >> this > >> >> >> >> charge, > >> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from > this > >> >> list, > >> >> >> >> or > >> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 3. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >> Displacement > >> >> >> >> from > >> >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID > >> JOB, > >> >> >> >> UNLIKE > >> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and > >> >> support > >> >> >> >> their > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, > >> from > >> >> >> >> reading > >> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' > (again > >> >> >> >> because > >> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have > asked > >> >> >> >> immediately > >> >> >> >> before this still hold. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 4. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >> Displacement > >> >> >> >> from > >> >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, > >> and > >> >> >> >> also IT > >> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write > in > >> the > >> >> >> >> way he > >> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 5. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >> Displacement > >> >> >> >> from > >> >> >> >> Kashmir > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS > >> and > >> >> we > >> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to > me > >> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani > have > >> a > >> >> >> >> list of > >> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making > >> here > >> >> >> >> that I > >> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not > have > >> >> this > >> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he > >> should > >> >> be > >> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 6. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> >> >> persons' > >> >> >> >> status > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know > what > >> I > >> >> >> >> mean." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree > >> with > >> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What > does > >> >> >> >> "Chinese > >> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > >> >> Kuomintang > >> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural > preference > >> >> for > >> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is > >> >> >> >> referring to > >> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > >> >> specifically > >> >> >> >> those > >> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and > the > >> >> >> >> government > >> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people > he > >> >> >> >> would > >> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal > >> >> critics > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > >> >> government > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact > gone > >> on > >> >> >> >> record > >> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > >> >> government > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > >> Government > >> >> of > >> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > >> >> baseless. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 7. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced > >> >> >> >> persons' > >> >> >> >> status > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > >> MASTERS > >> >> >> >> TONE..." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's > >> insinuation > >> >> >> >> that > >> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who > act > >> at > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> behest of their masters. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> ----------------- > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> __________________________ > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day > (from > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> date > >> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable > >> proof > >> >> >> >> for > >> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and > >> >> >> >> scurrilous > >> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one > day. > >> >> Or, > >> >> >> >> if > >> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, > motivated > >> and > >> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request > >> the > >> >> >> >> list > >> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with > >> >> >> >> immediate > >> >> >> >> effect. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been > in > >> >> >> >> favour of > >> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year > and > >> a > >> >> >> >> half) > >> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies > (in > >> >> >> >> serious > >> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with > their > >> >> >> >> rubbish > >> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his > expulsion > >> on > >> >> >> >> grounds > >> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the > >> >> benefit > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' > especially > >> >> when > >> >> >> >> I do > >> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in > >> anger > >> >> >> >> need a > >> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, > Aditya > >> >> Raj > >> >> >> >> Kaul > >> >> >> >> and their allies. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm > that > >> >> they > >> >> >> >> can > >> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > >> >> >> >> conjecture. > >> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > >> >> arguments > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > >> >> personal > >> >> >> >> lives > >> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, > >> spread > >> >> >> >> poison > >> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. > There > >> >> have > >> >> >> >> to > >> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by > a > >> >> >> >> foreign > >> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I > am, > >> or > >> >> I > >> >> >> >> am > >> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > >> >> suggests > >> >> >> >> that I > >> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > >> >> statement > >> >> >> >> about > >> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only > way > >> to > >> >> >> >> settle > >> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the > allegation > >> >> >> >> proves > >> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false > witness. > >> >> The > >> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very > serious > >> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a > 'foreign > >> >> power' > >> >> >> >> in > >> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. > >> Such > >> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is > >> libel > >> >> and > >> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection > on > >> the > >> >> >> >> grounds > >> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself > and > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame > a > >> >> >> >> person or > >> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to > >> >> conceal. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> regards > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Shuddha > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 > > ******************************************** > > > > > > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up > now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 18:55:56 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:55:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100510k46f3f0b5pb0cae59ea4e9dd82@mail.gmail.com> References: <282630.27997.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70811100502nc18ee44rcd2cd56ef3d99029@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100510k46f3f0b5pb0cae59ea4e9dd82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811100525m7f179459r21da5eae55836322@mail.gmail.com> dear pawan ji, please read Rajendra Bhat's mails once again, you like to talk on his behalf, well, he has time and again criticized anything that tends to find falut in Hindutva poltical outfits policies.... indeed these parties are Fascists in design, see, i quote Rajendra Bhat here, "as more and more citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its citizens are voting for it ... " i am not lifting this fragment out of context, it is what he feels, and that is why, Mr. Kirdar has rightly pointed out that you ( unwittingly ) damage the cause of Kashmiri pandits , you are perhaps, over confident about your reasoning, i dont say "brain washed" as your friend Aditya ji beleives; ( he said : we will not tolerate SAR to brain wash the students in the campus ). so, if there is something called brain washing, then, do you think you are brain washed, or if not, then why you dont see the reason in the dialogue, any dialogue.... bee cool, even when you are playing cards with no win situation...... cool, my dear, cool, that is the wisdom, just try it love is On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Inder , > > Where does Hindu come here in his statement ? > > Or does this do approve and enjoy Hindu bashing..... > > Why does no one remind Inder of Hindu bashing ........ > > Isnt it a pattern here ? > > Pawan > > On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> i quote Rajendra Bhat >> >> "the list will be extinct soon with only left thoughts and praise of >> mutual admiration society in view" >> >> well, dear Rajendra Bhat, the extinction of List without you, as you >> presume, will still be less painful than so many other species which >> disappear from the world, please dont worry about the List. >> >> i quote Rajendra Bhat again >> >> "where the raped nun meets none to seek justice.?" >> >> Dear Rajendra ji >> >> how about this gross insensitivity towards a woman who suffered the >> worst.... is this the standard Hindu way of talking to a woman who >> might be still in shock ? >> >> this is all sad >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat >> wrote: >> > Oh, now it is" we " versus they. ? >> > >> > I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more >> > citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its >> > citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in >> > kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to >> > seek justice.? >> > >> > Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again >> > and again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves >> > is that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is >> > functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and >> > other terror supporters on the list. >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM >> > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 >> > >> > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >> > reader-list at sarai.net >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > reader-list-owner at sarai.net >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530 >> > From: "Aarti Sethi" >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List >> > To: "Pawan Durani" >> > Cc: sarai list , we wi , >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > Message-ID: >> > <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" >> > >> > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter >> > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our >> > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing >> > but >> > bleats to offer. >> > >> > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If >> > we >> > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it >> > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate >> > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not >> > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as >> > well. >> > >> > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. >> > The >> > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put >> > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not >> > the >> > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) >> > where >> > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. >> > >> > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations >> > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask >> > yourself >> > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, >> > rather >> > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. >> > >> > Warm regards >> > (as it seems for the last time) >> > >> > Aarti >> > >> > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any >> > private communications with you at all. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Lastly, >> >> >> >> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >> >> which >> >> I can understand. >> >> >> >> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have >> >> a >> >> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >> >> member.. >> >> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? >> >> ] >> >> >> >> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >> >> >> >> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest >> >> the >> >> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than >> >> double >> >> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in >> >> my >> >> ideology. >> >> >> >> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can >> >> understand >> >> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe >> >> in >> >> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If >> >> i am >> >> really a hurdle. >> >> >> >> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Kirdar, >> >> > >> >> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What >> >> > makes >> >> him >> >> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >> >> > >> >> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of >> >> > this >> >> > group. >> >> > >> >> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >> >> > >> >> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >> >> > >> >> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >> >> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt >> >> > have >> >> one. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> >> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri >> >> >> pundits >> >> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> >> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> >> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> >> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> >> >> >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> >> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" >> >> >> - >> >> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise >> >> >> concerns >> >> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> >> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all >> >> >> Muslims >> >> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> >> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are >> >> >> simply >> >> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy >> >> >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> >> >> >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> >> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the >> >> >> clock >> >> >> is ticking. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Dear Kirdar, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they >> >> >> > come >> >> >> from . >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the >> >> >> > supporters of >> >> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one >> >> >> > ,.......unless he >> >> >> > considers himself one. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> >> >> Geelani >> >> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i >> >> >> > write >> >> >> that >> >> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> >> >> investigated.What >> >> >> > makes the two different ? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >> >> certain >> >> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it >> >> >> > happens in >> >> >> all >> >> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless >> >> >> > he >> >> co >> >> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members >> >> >> > and >> >> >> non >> >> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >> >> >> > just >> >> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust >> >> >> > anyone >> >> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >> >> >> > this >> >> >> list >> >> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are >> >> >> > surrogate >> >> >> ..... >> >> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> >> >> himself >> >> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv >> >> >> > Sena , >> >> >> Panun >> >> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >> >> >> > wrong >> >> >> with >> >> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> >> >> However i >> >> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one >> >> >> > of >> >> the >> >> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >> >> >> > member >> >> >> as we >> >> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >> >> advise. >> >> >> But >> >> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone >> >> >> > of >> >> >> these. >> >> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against >> >> >> > all >> >> >> odds. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> >> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >> >> >> > pandits >> >> >> world >> >> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >> >> >> > scuttle >> >> >> the >> >> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons >> >> >> > ? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >> >> Chinese >> >> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why >> >> >> > does >> >> it >> >> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers >> >> >> > himself a >> >> >> > supporter of that ? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate >> >> >> > freedom is >> >> >> to >> >> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> >> >> undergone >> >> >> > Exodus and genocide. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. >> >> >> > I >> >> >> myself >> >> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word >> >> >> > and >> >> >> what >> >> >> > not to word. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >> >> challenge >> >> >> a >> >> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > others be removed. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , >> >> >> > so >> >> >> they do >> >> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Regards >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Pawan Durani >> >> >> > >> >> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a >> >> >> >> specific >> >> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >> >> foreign >> >> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >> >> >> >> such >> >> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >> >> think >> >> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point >> >> >> >> rather >> >> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, >> >> >> >> please >> >> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations >> >> >> >> you >> >> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >> >> >> >> Maybe >> >> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >> >> pawan.durani at gmail.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Dear All, >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> >> >> exposed. >> >> >> >> > The >> >> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like >> >> >> >> > me , >> >> >> >> > Aditya , >> >> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> >> >> nothing >> >> >> >> > but >> >> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , >> >> >> >> > Inder , >> >> >> >> > Shivam >> >> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Pawan >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on >> >> >> >> >> our >> >> >> list, >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun >> >> >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their >> >> >> >> >> 'case', >> >> >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express >> >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >> >> goon >> >> >> >> >> allies >> >> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >> >> this >> >> >> >> >> list, >> >> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> >> >> associated >> >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from >> >> >> >> >> Aditya >> >> Raj >> >> >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK >> >> >> >> >> gospel >> >> or >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >> >> doing >> >> >> so >> >> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> >> >> masters' >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >> >> ethical >> >> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >> >> >> >> >> these >> >> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> >> >> position >> >> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> account >> >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >> >> being >> >> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >> >> >> >> >> So, >> >> >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a >> >> >> >> >> paid >> >> >> agent, >> >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >> >> >> >> >> made >> >> >> when >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay >> >> >> >> >> Kak's >> >> >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because >> >> >> >> >> they >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> being >> >> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >> >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> local >> >> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >> >> foreign >> >> >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that >> >> >> >> >> Indian >> >> >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else >> >> >> >> >> fails. >> >> It >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect >> >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to >> >> >> >> >> hide >> >> but >> >> >> >> >> fails >> >> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >> >> >> >> >> Jabbar >> >> >> on >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >> >> >> >> >> Durani >> >> >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots >> >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >> >> >> >> >> write >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >> >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> these >> >> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> be >> >> >> >> >> doing >> >> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> >> >> beholden >> >> >> >> >> to. >> >> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >> >> >> >> >> admitting >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >> >> their >> >> >> own >> >> >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >> >> doesn't >> >> >> >> >> agree >> >> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific >> >> >> >> >> occasions >> >> >> when >> >> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK >> >> >> >> >> hard >> >> >> line >> >> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, >> >> >> >> >> Aarti >> >> >> has >> >> >> >> >> been >> >> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >> >> accused >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >> >> specific >> >> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >> >> called >> >> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not >> >> >> >> >> take >> >> >> this >> >> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >> >> casually >> >> >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are >> >> >> >> >> writing >> >> what >> >> >> we >> >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >> >> >> >> >> 'terrorist' >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >> >> >> >> >> willing >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> take >> >> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my >> >> >> >> >> bank >> >> >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> should >> >> >> think >> >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >> >> purchase >> >> >> at >> >> >> >> >> such >> >> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >> >> >> >> >> hired >> >> >> hack >> >> >> >> >> who >> >> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >> >> >> leavings >> >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No >> >> >> >> >> one >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. >> >> >> >> >> No >> >> >> >> >> payments >> >> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >> >> >> >> >> writing >> >> >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include >> >> >> >> >> writing >> >> on >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and >> >> >> >> >> my >> >> >> >> >> professional >> >> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> >> >> especially >> >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >> >> >> >> >> willing >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not >> >> >> >> >> been >> >> >> thrown >> >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two >> >> >> >> >> weeks, >> >> >> then >> >> >> >> >> we >> >> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >> >> think >> >> >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >> >> quote >> >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it >> >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> taken, >> >> >> >> >> so >> >> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My >> >> >> >> >> comments >> >> >> follow >> >> >> >> >> each >> >> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> >> >> capitalized >> >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A >> >> >> >> >> FOREIGN >> >> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , >> >> >> >> >> Parlaiment >> >> >> case >> >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and >> >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will >> >> >> >> >> come >> >> out >> >> >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >> >> backed >> >> >> by >> >> >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are >> >> >> >> >> being >> >> >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with >> >> >> >> >> details of >> >> >> how >> >> >> >> >> he >> >> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) >> >> >> >> >> above, or >> >> >> >> >> stand >> >> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> >> >> character >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> know >> >> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> count >> >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A >> >> >> >> >> FULL >> >> TIME >> >> >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >> >> neither >> >> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the >> >> >> >> >> Reader >> >> >> List >> >> >> >> >> on any >> >> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >> >> >> >> >> want >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> know >> >> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >> >> >> >> >> Reader >> >> >> List >> >> >> >> >> is a >> >> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> >> >> substantiate >> >> >> >> >> this, >> >> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >> >> >> >> >> what >> >> I >> >> >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid >> >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> this. >> >> >> >> >> In >> >> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot >> >> >> >> >> substantiate >> >> this >> >> >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from >> >> >> >> >> this >> >> >> list, >> >> >> >> >> or >> >> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> >> Displacement >> >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >> >> JOB, >> >> >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> >> >> support >> >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> reading >> >> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' >> >> >> >> >> (again >> >> >> >> >> because >> >> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have >> >> >> >> >> asked >> >> >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> >> Displacement >> >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long >> >> >> >> >> mail, >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write >> >> >> >> >> in >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> way he >> >> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >> >> Displacement >> >> >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS >> >> >> >> >> MASTERS >> >> and >> >> >> we >> >> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts >> >> >> >> >> to me >> >> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani >> >> >> >> >> have >> >> a >> >> >> >> >> list of >> >> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is >> >> >> >> >> making >> >> here >> >> >> >> >> that I >> >> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >> >> >> >> >> have >> >> >> this >> >> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >> >> should >> >> >> be >> >> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally >> >> >> >> >> displaced >> >> >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >> >> >> >> >> what >> >> I >> >> >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not >> >> >> >> >> agree >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What >> >> >> >> >> does >> >> >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> >> >> Kuomintang >> >> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >> >> >> >> >> preference >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> >> >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> >> >> specifically >> >> >> >> >> those >> >> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> government >> >> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the >> >> >> >> >> people he >> >> >> >> >> would >> >> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> >> >> critics >> >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> government >> >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact >> >> >> >> >> gone >> >> on >> >> >> >> >> record >> >> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> >> >> government >> >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >> >> Government >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> >> >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally >> >> >> >> >> displaced >> >> >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >> >> MASTERS >> >> >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >> >> insinuation >> >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who >> >> >> >> >> act >> >> at >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >> >> >> >> >> (from >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> date >> >> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >> >> proof >> >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one >> >> >> >> >> day. >> >> >> Or, >> >> >> >> >> if >> >> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, >> >> >> >> >> motivated >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> list >> >> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list >> >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been >> >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> a >> >> >> >> >> half) >> >> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >> >> >> >> >> (in >> >> >> >> >> serious >> >> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with >> >> >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his >> >> >> >> >> expulsion >> >> on >> >> >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give >> >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> benefit >> >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' >> >> >> >> >> especially >> >> >> when >> >> >> >> >> I do >> >> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >> >> anger >> >> >> >> >> need a >> >> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >> >> >> >> >> Aditya >> >> >> Raj >> >> >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >> >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> they >> >> >> >> >> can >> >> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> >> >> arguments >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> >> >> personal >> >> >> >> >> lives >> >> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >> >> spread >> >> >> >> >> poison >> >> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >> >> >> >> >> There >> >> >> have >> >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do >> >> >> >> >> by a >> >> >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >> >> >> >> >> am, >> >> or >> >> >> I >> >> >> >> >> am >> >> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> >> >> suggests >> >> >> >> >> that I >> >> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> >> >> statement >> >> >> >> >> about >> >> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only >> >> >> >> >> way >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> settle >> >> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >> >> >> >> >> allegation >> >> >> >> >> proves >> >> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >> >> >> >> >> witness. >> >> >> The >> >> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >> >> >> >> >> serious >> >> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a >> >> >> >> >> 'foreign >> >> >> power' >> >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >> >> Such >> >> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >> >> libel >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection >> >> >> >> >> on >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to >> >> >> >> >> defame a >> >> >> >> >> person or >> >> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> >> >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> >> >> > with >> >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > reader-list mailing list >> > reader-list at sarai.net >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > >> > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100 >> > ******************************************** >> > >> > >> > >> > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up >> > now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 19:04:49 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:34:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100505y90135f7je2e4a2e234b8bf70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <965278.57748.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan I never challenged your IT knowledge. Never heard of DOS, never experienced 14.4 kbps. (Won't even claim about the first website I designed in 1997). You take all the credit please. I would simply let everyone here to wonder what has your own group (which is larger than Sarai reader-list) taught you in all these 10 years about how to treat fellow netizens. Thank you Yousuf Saeed --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Sarai" , "Aarti Sethi" > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 6:35 PM > Dear Yousuf , > > I do believe that my knowledge about Internet is probably > better than yours. > I am into IT services only and am in www world since I was > using a 14.4 kbps > dial up browser and the text was in dos mode. > > You may have heard of this , and I am sure never > experienced it. > > Coming back to accusations , I am as guilty " if it > assumed by some" as > someone else is.As i have said , i do not challenge a > moderator and neither > do i like someone challenging me in the group i run. That > group is almost 10 > years old. > > If someone challenges my cause by overtly or covertly > supporting or > sympathising with my tormentors , i wont sit back. > > I dont know what CSDS or whatever is ! It doesnt matter to > me. > > You may continue to have vote for my expulsion, and that > makes me remember > castro , who once said "I would not vote for the > mayor. It's not just > because he didn't invite me to dinner, but because on > my way into town from > the airport there were such enormous potholes." > > Best regards > > pawan > jai Andhra , Jai Hind > > > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Yousuf wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan > > I didn't want to get into this. But here is a > small point. Please do not > > forget that we are on the Internet, where, even though > most things come free > > - but as they say in America: there is no such thing > as a free lunch. So, > > while Sarai list maybe a free space for you to speak > out loud, someone, > > somewhere is paying for the server space and the > bandwidth (I don't mean > > paying in that "getting paid" sense. But if > you insist on the "getting paid" > > angle, then even you are using that "foreign > kick-back" by posting your > > messages on this paid server). > > > > Nothing is free. Even when we sign up on Yahoo, Google > or any other free > > service, they get a contract signed from us (which > I'm sure none of us read > > fully) saying that they have the right to remove you > from their free service > > as and when they feel like. Now, I don't want to > compare the institution of > > Sarai/CSDS with that sort of corporatism, but I am > sure every institution > > has the right to maintain a certain decorum in a > public debate. When you > > subscribed to the reader-list, they must have sent you > a message about what > > this list is all about, and that you need to follow a > certain decorum. By > > accepting their subscription, you have agreed to abide > by the decorum. If > > you don't, then it is their right to remove. > > > > Even if we consider the reader-list as a truly public > forum with no > > institutional belonging, then, the opinion of the rest > of the list-members > > should suffice to remove you or anyone who crosses > limits of decency. We can > > have a referendum/poll here, and let the list members > vote for or against > > you. > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > From: Pawan Durani > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really > ? > > > To: "Sarai" > , "we wi" > , > > "rajendra bhat" > > > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:38 PM > > > Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra > removed from > > > the list ? > > > > > > Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > > > > > > Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be > writers in > > > the forum but pull > > > the strings ? > > > > > > Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have > continuoulsy > > > fought ? > > > > > > Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who > do not > > > want us to expose > > > yasin malik ? > > > > > > Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > > > > > > Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause > gets > > > defeated everytime > > > they make a terrorist a hero ? > > > > > > Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > > > > > > Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > > > > > > is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > > > > > > Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > > > > > > I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > > > > > > In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a > Abhimanyu in a > > > well plotted > > > Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the > pandvas are > > > on my side . > > > > > > The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra > of this > > > group is still > > > blind ! > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > From mrsg at vsnl.com Mon Nov 10 19:15:39 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:15:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME Message-ID: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> Invitation A YEAR OF SHAME On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from Kolkata An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, An Evening Of Protest With Poems of Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, Shrijato, Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, KOLKATA, 6 PM Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of Bangladesh), Kolkata A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city of Kolkata. We also believed that. The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long back. She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a year of shame. We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there From mrsg at vsnl.com Mon Nov 10 19:23:51 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:23:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: A YEAR OF SHAME Message-ID: <002001c9433b$c4a15a50$0201a8c0@MRAY> A CORRECTION ----- Original Message ----- From: MRSG To: sarai list Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:15 PM Subject: A YEAR OF SHAME PLEASE CORRECT THE DATE - IT IS ON 19 TH NOVEMBER 2008 Invitation A YEAR OF SHAME On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from Kolkata An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, An Evening Of Protest With Poems of Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, Shrijato, Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak ON 19 NOVEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, KOLKATA, 6 PM Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of Bangladesh), Kolkata A year back, on 22 November 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city of Kolkata. We also believed that. The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long back. She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a year of shame. We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Nov 10 19:31:14 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:31:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> References: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: Dear M.Ray, Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know that Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she will one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. regards Shuddha On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > Invitation > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from Kolkata > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, > Shrijato, Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser > Hussain, Ranjit Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur > Khan, Pallab Kirtania, Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, > Sumitava Ghosal and others. Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, > KOLKATA, 6 PM > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of > Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always > believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular > city of Kolkata. We also believed that. > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long > back. She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not > allowed to inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these > fundamentalists, Left Front government banned her book. Our protest > was too mild. And then finally on 22 December 2007, Left front > government threw her out of Kolkata after a day-long violence by a > group of Muslims in Kolkata. The expulsion was supported by > Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her earlier lectures to the > madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told that Taslima should > have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata Mukherjee said > that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom struggle. > Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called cultural > capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a > year of shame. > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From editor at intertheory.org Mon Nov 10 19:36:47 2008 From: editor at intertheory.org (Nicholas Ruiz III) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Message-ID: <696458.49940.qm@web301.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of Obama and McCain... NRIII Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D Editor, Kritikos http://intertheory.org ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Miller To: V Ramaswamy Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth University. Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. OK - response: I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public discourse? No. If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage (as Nader's comment was). I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost in the poor choice of rhetoric. I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support with his comments. in peace, Paul On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe > that was > made in an interview on Fox tv. > From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term > "Uncle > Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a > servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the > white > man's game and his domination but seeking something better for oneself > within that. > > The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", by > Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, > silently > suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom > he > continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor > rejects. > > If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle > Tom" a > few times. > > Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. > I don't > think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a > specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say > certain > things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is > ultimately > a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was > surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says how > marginalised he was in the mainstream media. > > Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say > certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole > Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his > "open > letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's > bending over > backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- > based > Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. > > Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has > to be > played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in > that > game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think > that > "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like > to think > that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and > people can > by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say > what has > to be said, and yet prevail. > > I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, > sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to > Obama. He is > challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the > expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that > one's > harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies > like > these, who needs friends!" > > For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on > Obama > (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a > blog > post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. > > Best > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > cuckooscall.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mrsg at vsnl.com Mon Nov 10 19:45:29 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:45:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME References: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <002501c9433e$ca2d75a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> Dear Shudda Sengupta Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. M Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta To: MRSG Cc: sarai list Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME Dear M.Ray, Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know that Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she will one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. regards Shuddha On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: Invitation A YEAR OF SHAME On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from Kolkata An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, An Evening Of Protest With Poems of Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, Shrijato, Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, KOLKATA, 6 PM Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of Bangladesh), Kolkata A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city of Kolkata. We also believed that. The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long back. She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a year of shame. We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 10 20:20:53 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:50:53 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <696458.49940.qm@web301.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <696458.49940.qm@web301.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and balanced." in peace, Paul On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo > > There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant > to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of > Obama and McCain... > > NRIII > > > > Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D > Editor, Kritikos > http://intertheory.org > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul Miller > To: V Ramaswamy > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > > Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far > northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth > University. > > Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from > Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc > This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. > > OK - response: > > I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: > yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public > discourse? No. > > If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was > an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage > (as Nader's comment was). > > I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in > India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about > 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of > comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. > In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, > and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost > in the poor choice of rhetoric. > > I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth > of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed > exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not > too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more > virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African > American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an > emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support > with his comments. > > in peace, > Paul > On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > >> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe >> that was >> made in an interview on Fox tv. >> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >> "Uncle >> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a >> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >> white >> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >> oneself >> within that. >> >> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", >> by >> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >> silently >> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom >> he >> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >> rejects. >> >> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle >> Tom" a >> few times. >> >> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. >> I don't >> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a >> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >> certain >> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >> ultimately >> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was >> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >> how >> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >> >> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say >> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his >> "open >> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's >> bending over >> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >> based >> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >> >> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >> to be >> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >> that >> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >> that >> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like >> to think >> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >> people can >> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >> what has >> to be said, and yet prevail. >> >> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, >> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >> Obama. He is >> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that >> one's >> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies >> like >> these, who needs friends!" >> >> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on >> Obama >> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a >> blog >> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >> >> Best >> >> V Ramaswamy >> Calcutta >> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 10 20:41:01 2008 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:11:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: On Obama Message-ID: <967785.6010.qm@web25406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Dear all,   I find Vinay Lal's cynicism almost as pointless as Nader's criticism, although of course one has to be really cautious in one's unqualified celebration of Obama. There can be cynicism and despair only where there's been a betrayal of stated positions. Nobody - except some gullible  Americans carried away by the "Yes, We Can" ad-campaign after the economic meltdown threatening their homes and jobs - thought Obama was ushering in any change.   The point of this election probably wasn't "what after Obama?", but whether the Americans would vote in a black man with a Muslim middle name as president at all (so what if he's suave and well-educated and is miles ahead of McCain in every which way). So, now that that question has been answered and has redeemed the Americans somewhat, the post-election scenario should not be surprising to us, given that Obama's stated positions through his campaign have been pro-establishment and did not suggest any changes even close enough to any radical change in either America's foreign policy or its corporate capitalism. That Obama is elected to the White House IS the change, and a long-awaited one.   The best, Sabitha.   --- On Mon, 10/11/08, V Ramaswamy wrote: From: V Ramaswamy Subject: [Reader-list] On Obama To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:49 AM >From Economic & Political Weekly, November 1, 2008 The Technician in the Establishment: Obama's America and the World by Vinay Lal On November 4, Barack Obama will in all likelihood be elected the 44th president of the United States. As against the euphoria in the rest of the world about such a presidency, this article reads into his 2006 book (The Audacity of Hope) and his campaign speeches, a different kind of Obama. He emerges as a technician who is best equipped to fix broken policies and get America working once again. One can only hope that a US that is once again working does not mean a US that is more efficient in its exercise of military domination and even more successful in projecting its own vision of human affairs as the only road to the good life. To believe in Obama, one needs to hope against hope. Barack Obama is poised to become the 44th president of the United States. Many see in the ascendancy of a black man to the highest office of the world's hegemon a supremely historic moment in American if not world affairs. Such is the incalculable hold of the US, in times better or worse, on the imagination of people worldwide that many are more heavily invested in the politics and future of the US than they are in the politics of their own nation. There may yet be method to this maddening infatuation, for Iraqis, Afghanis, and Pakistanis, among many others, known and unknown, the target at some point of the military wrath and moral unctuousness of America, may want to reason if their chances of being bombed back into the stone age increase or decrease with the election of one or the other candidate. The French, perhaps best known for the haughty pride in their own culture, were so moved by the events of September 11, 2001, which the Americans have attempted to install as a new era in world history, rendering 9/11 as something akin to BC or AD, that Le Monde famously declared, "Nous sommes tous Americains" (We are all Americans ). One doubts that, had it been Beijing, Delhi, or Dakar that had been so bombed, the French would have declared, We are All Chinese, Indians, or Senegalese. That old imperialist habit of presuming the royal We, thinking that the French or American we is the universal We, has evidently not disappeared. Obama vs McCain There can be little question that Obama's presidency would be much preferable to that of McCain. If nothing else, his presidency is not calculated to be an insult to human intelligence or a complete affront to simple norms of human decency. After eight years of George W Bush, it seemed all but improbable that America could throw up another candidate who is, if not in absolutely identical ways, at least as much of an embarrassment to the US as the incumbent of the White House. But one should never underestimate the genius of America in throwing up crooks, clowns and charlatans into the cauldron of politics. It is likely that McCain has a slightly less convoluted" or should I say jejune " view of world history and geography than Bush, nor is his vocabulary wholly impoverished, but he will not strike anyone with a discerning mind as possessed of a robust intelligence. McCain has already committed so many gaffes, accusing (to take one example) Iran of training Al Qaida extremists, that one wonders whether his much touted "foreign policy experience" amounts to anything at all. In America, it is enough to have a candidate who understands that Iraq and Iran are not only spelled differently but constitute two separate nations. Obama seems so far ahead of the decorated Vietnam war veteran in these respects that it seems pointless to waste any more words on McCain. Obama writes reasonably well, and has even been lauded for his skills as an orator; he is suave, mentally alert, and a keen observer of world affairs. Far too many American elections have offered scenarios where a candidate has been voted into office not on the strength of his intelligence, sound policies, or moral judgment, but because the candidate has appeared to be "the lesser of two evils" . The iconoclast Paul Goodman, writing in the 1960s, gave it as his considered opinion that American elections were an exercise in helping Americans distinguish between undistinguishable Democrats and Republicans, and there are, notwithstanding Obama's appeal to liberals and apparently intelligent people, genuine questions to be asked about whether this election will be anything more than a choice between Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Candidates with wholly distinct views have always been described as "spoilers" in the American system, and anyone who do not subscribe to the rigidly corporatist outlook of the two major parties can only expect ridicule, opprobrium, and at best colossal neglect. To this extent, whatever America's pretensions at being a model democracy for the rest of the world, one can marvel at the ease and brilliance with which dissenters are marginalised in the US. The singularity of American democracy resides in the fact that it is, insofar as democracies are in question, at once both perversely primitive and advanced. In its totalitarian sweep over the political landscape, the one-party system, which through the fiction of two parties has swept all dissent " indeed, I should say all thought " under the rug, has shown itself utterly incapable of accommodating political views outside its fold; and precisely for this reason American democracy displays nearly all the visible signs of stability, accountability, and public engagement, retaining in its rudiments the same features it has had over the last two centuries. A New Obama after the Election? Obama's most ardent defenders have adopted the predictably disingenuous view that Candidate Obama has had to repress most of his liberal sentiments to appeal to a wide electorate, and that president Obama will be much less "centrist" in his execution of domestic and foreign policies. (The US is one country where most hawks, particularly if they are "distinguished" senior statesmen, can easily pass themselves off as "centrists", the word "hawk" being reserved for certified lunatics such as Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, or blatantly aggressive policymakers such as Paul Wolfowitz. No one would describe Colin Powell, who shares as much responsibility as anyone else for waging a criminal war on Iraq, as a hawk.) Of course much the same view was advanced apropos Bill Clinton, who then went on to wreck the labour movement, cut food stamps, initiate welfare "reform" that further eroded the entitlements of the poor, and launch aggressive military strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Kosovo, and a host of other places. Moreover, unless one is to take the view that Obama thought of his candidacy overnight, it is equally reasonable to argue that, knowing how much he would have to appeal to the rank and file of not only Democrats but the large number of "undecided" voters as a candidate who would be markedly different from both the incumbent and the Republicans running for the presidency, Obama has been projecting himself as far more liberal than either his political record or views would give warrant to believe. Indeed, as a close perusal of his writings, speeches, and voting record suggests, Obama is as consummate a politician as any in the US, and he has been priming himself as a presidential candidate for many years. Entry to the Obama World View Obama's 2006 book,The Audacity of Hope (New York, Crown Publishers), furnishes as good an entry point into his world view as any. Its subtitle, "Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream", provides the link to Obama's memoir of 1995, Dreams of My Father (1995). People everywhere have dreams, no doubt, but there is nothing quite as magisterial as "the American dream": the precise substance of the American dream " a home with a backyard, mom's apple pie, kids riding their bikes without a care in the world, a cute dog running around in circles after the kids, ice tea, a Chevrolet or SUV " matters less than the fact that "the American dream" signifies something grand and unique in the affairs of humankind. A politician who does not profess belief in the American dream is doomed, but there is no insincerity on Obama's part in this respect. Leaving aside the question of how the American dream has been a nightmare to many of the most thoughtful Americans themselves, from Henry David Thoreau to James Baldwin, not to mention tens of millions of people elsewhere, Obama's fondness for what Americans call "feelgood" language is palpably evident. Just what does the audacity of hope mean? Need one be audacious to hope? Obama's pronouncements are littered with the language of hope, change, values, dreams, all only a slight improvement on chicken soup for dummies or chocolate for the soul. The chapter entitled ‘The World Beyond Our Borders', some will object, is illustrative of Obama's engagement with substantive issues, and in this case suggestive of his grasp over foreign affairs. One of the stories that circulated widely about Bush upon his election to the presidency in 2000 was that he carried an expired passport; a variant of the story says that Bush did not at that time own a US passport. It is immaterial whether the story is apocryphal: so colossal was Bush's ignorance of the world that it is entirely plausible that he had never travelled beyond Canada and Mexico, though I am tempted to say that illegal aliens and men born to power, transgressors of borders alike, share more than we commonly imagine. Obama, by contrast, came to know of the wider world in his childhood: his white American mother was married to a Kenyan before her second marriage to an Indonesian. Obama lived in Jakarta as a young boy, and the chapter offers a discussion of the purges under Suharto that led to the extermination of close to a million communists and their sympathisers. Obama is brave enough to acknowledge that many of the Indonesian military leaders had been trained in the US, and that the Central Intelligence Agency provided "covert support" to the insurrectionists who sought to remove the nationalist Sukarno and place Indonesia squarely in the American camp (pp 272-73). He charts Indonesia's spectacular economic progress, but also concedes that "Suharto's rule was harshly repressive". The press was stifled, elections were a "mere formality", prisons were filled up with political dissidents, and in commentary november 1, 2008 EPW Economic & P 16 olitical Weekly areas wracked by secessionist movements rebels and civilians alike faced swift and merciless retribution " "and all this was done with the knowledge, if not outright approval, of US administrations" (p 276). It is doubtful that most American politicians would have made even as mild an admission of American complicity in atrocities as has Obama. But a supremely realist framework allows for evasion as much as confession: thus Obama merely arrives at the reading that the American record overseas is a "mixed" one "across the globe" , often characterised by far-sightedness and altruism even if American policies have at times been "misguided, based on false assumptions" that have undermined American credibility and the genuine aspirations of others (p 280). There is, in plain language, both good and bad in this world; and Obama avers that the US, with all its limitations, has largely been a force for good. And since America remains the standard by which phenomena are to be evaluated, Obama betrays his own parochialism. The war in Vietnam, writes Obama, bequeathed "disastrous consequences": American credibility and prestige took a dive, the armed forces experienced a loss of morale, the American soldier needlessly suffered, and above all "the bond of trust between the American people and their government" was broken. Though two million or more Vietnamese were killed, and fertile land was rendered toxic for generations, no mention is made of this genocide: always the focus is on what the war did to America (p 287). The war in Vietnam chastened Americans, who "began to realise that the best and the brightest in Washington didn't always know what they were doing " and didn't always tell the truth" (p 287). One wonders why, then, an overwhelming majority of Americans supported the Gulf war of 1991 and the attack on Afghanistan, and why even the invasion of Iraq in 2002 had far more popular support in the US than it did in Europe or elsewhere around the world. The suggestion that the American people were once led astray but are fundamentally sound in their judgment ignores the consideration that elected officials are only as good as the people to whom they respond, besides hastening to exculpate ordinary Americans from their share of the responsibility for the egregious crimes that the US has committed overseas and against some of its own people. Good Wars, Bad Wars? Obama has on more than one occasion said, "I'm not against all wars, I'm just against dumb wars." More elegant thinkers than Obama, living in perhaps more thoughtful times, have used different language to justify war: there is the Christian doctrine of a just war, and similarly 20th century politicians and theorists, watching Germany under Hitler rearm itself and set the stage for the extermination of the Jewish people, reasoned that one could make a legitimate distinction between "good" and "bad" wars. Obama has something like the latter in mind: he was an early critic of the invasion of Iraq, though here again more on pragmatic grounds rather than from any sense of moral anguish, but like most liberals he gave his whole-hearted support to the bombing of Afghanistan in the hope, to use Bush's language, that Osama bin Laden could be smoked out and the Taliban reduced to smithereens. Obama is so far committed to the idea of Afghanistan as a "good" war that he has pledged that, if elected president, he would escalate the conflict there and also bomb Pakistan if it would help him prosecute the "war on terror". He has recently attacked McCain, who no one would mistake for a pacifist, with the observation that his opponent "won't even follow [bin Laden] to his cave in Afghanistan" , even as the US defence secretary has all but conceded that a political accommodation with the Taliban, whose support of bin Laden was the very justification for the bombing of Afghanistan, can no longer be avoided. The casually held assumption that by birthright an American president can bomb other countries into abject submission, or that the US can never be stripped of its prerogative to chastise nations that fail to do its bidding, takes one's breath away. No one should suppose that Obama, blinded by the sharp rhetoric of the "war on terror" , has positions on Iraq and Afghanistan that are not characteristic of his view of the world as a whole. "We need to maintain a strategic force posture", he writes, "that allows us to manage threats posed by rogue nations like North Korea and Iran and to meet the challenges presented by potential rivals like China" (p 307). This could have been the voice of Reagan, the Clintons, Bush, McCain, and countless others: there is such overwhelming unanimity about "rogue states" that almost no politician in the US can be expected to display even an iota of independent thinking. No Change from Staus Quo On the question of Palestine, Obama has similarly displayed belligerence and moral turpitude. At the annual meeting in June 2008 of the American Israel Political Action Committee, a self-avowedly Zionist organisation that commands unstinting support from across the entire American political spectrum, Obama was unambiguous in declaring that "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel and it must remain undivided". It would only be belabouring the obvi.ous to state that, on nearly every foreign policy issue that one can think of, with the exception of a timetable for withdrawal of American troops from Iraq, Obama's position can scarcely be distinguished from all the other advocates of the national security state. There can be no gainsaying the fact that Obama's election as president of the US will appreciably alter American debates on race. African-Americans make up 12 per cent of the population but constitute nearly half of the US prison population; one of three black males will, in his lifetime, have gone through the criminal justice system. African-Americans are, alongside Puerto Ricans, two ethnic groups among whom poverty is endemic, and repeated studies have shown that in every critical sector of life, such as access to jobs, housing, and healthcare, blacks face persistent racism and discrimination. Obama is fully cognisant of these problems and is likely to address them to a greater extent than any other candidate. But one can also argue, with equal plausibility, that his ascendancy will strengthen the hands of those who want to think of American democracy as a post-race society, and whose instant inclination is to jettison affirmative action and reduce the already narrow space for discussions of race in civil society. It is immaterial, even if fascinating to some, whether numerous white people will vote for Obama to prove their credentials as non-racists, while others will give him their vote because he is not all that black " just as some black people will surely cast their ballot for Obama precisely because he is black. By far the most critical consideration is that the US requires a radical redistribution of economic and political power: Martin Luther King Jr had come to an awareness of this in the last years of his life, but there is little to suggest that Obama, a professional politician to the core, has similarly seen the light. Establishment Candidate In these deeply troubled times, when there is much casual talk of the American ship sinking, the white ruling class is preparing to turn over the keys of the kingdom to a black man. Imperial powers had a knack for doing this, but let us leave that history aside. Here, at least, Obama appears to have displayed audacity, taking on a challenge that many others might have forsworn. However, nothing is as it seems to be: with the passage of time, Obama has increasingly justified the confidence reposed in him as an establishment candidate. A man with some degree of moral conscience would not only have shrugged off the endorsements of Colin Powell and Scott McClellan, until recently among Bush's grandstanding cheerleaders and apparatchiks, but would have insisted that Powell and others of his ilk be brought to justice for crimes against the Iraqi people. But Obama will do no such thing, for after all Powell and the master he served, like Kissinger and Nixon before them, only made "tactical" errors. Obama prides himself, moreover, on being a healer not divider: he will even rejoice in the support for him among previously hardcore Republicans (www.republicansforobama.org). When Obama is not speaking about values, hope, and change, he presents himself as a manager, representing brutal American adventurism in Iraq and Afghanistan as illustrations of policies that went wrong. He comes forward as a technician who is best equipped to fix broken policies, repair the system, and get America working once again. One can only hope that an America that is once again working does not mean for a good portion of the rest of the world what it has meant for a long time, namely, an America that is more efficient in its exercise of military domination and even more successful in projecting its own vision of human affairs as the only road to the good life. To believe in Obama, one needs to hope against hope. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get your own website and domain for just Rs.1,999/year.* Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From editor at intertheory.org Mon Nov 10 20:44:13 2008 From: editor at intertheory.org (Nicholas Ruiz III) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:14:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Message-ID: <477828.94258.qm@web305.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems to be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the irrelevant nature of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will make the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a U.S. president of a different hue... Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an attempt to eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has relegated, for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media coverage and commentary... NRIII Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D Editor, Kritikos http://intertheory.org ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Miller To: Nicholas Ruiz III Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and balanced." in peace, Paul On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo > > There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant > to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of > Obama and McCain... > > NRIII > > > > Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D > Editor, Kritikos > http://intertheory.org > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul Miller > To: V Ramaswamy > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > > Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far > northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth > University. > > Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from > Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc > This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. > > OK - response: > > I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: > yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public > discourse? No. > > If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was > an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage > (as Nader's comment was). > > I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in > India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about > 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of > comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. > In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, > and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost > in the poor choice of rhetoric. > > I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth > of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed > exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not > too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more > virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African > American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an > emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support > with his comments. > > in peace, > Paul > On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > >> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe >> that was >> made in an interview on Fox tv. >> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >> "Uncle >> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a >> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >> white >> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >> oneself >> within that. >> >> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", >> by >> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >> silently >> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom >> he >> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >> rejects. >> >> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle >> Tom" a >> few times. >> >> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. >> I don't >> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a >> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >> certain >> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >> ultimately >> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was >> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >> how >> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >> >> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say >> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his >> "open >> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's >> bending over >> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >> based >> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >> >> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >> to be >> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >> that >> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >> that >> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like >> to think >> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >> people can >> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >> what has >> to be said, and yet prevail. >> >> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, >> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >> Obama. He is >> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that >> one's >> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies >> like >> these, who needs friends!" >> >> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on >> Obama >> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a >> blog >> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >> >> Best >> >> V Ramaswamy >> Calcutta >> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:27:48 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:27:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <002501c9433e$ca2d75a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> References: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> <002501c9433e$ca2d75a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <47e122a70811100757l1d7ea0d6q95ecf790123404a0@mail.gmail.com> in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this 'Taslima Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements love is On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: > Dear Shudda Sengupta > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. > M Ray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > To: MRSG > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > Dear M.Ray, > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know that Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she will one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. > > > > > regards > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > Invitation > > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from Kolkata > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, Shrijato, Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak > > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, KOLKATA, 6 PM > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > > > > > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city of Kolkata. We also believed that. > > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long back. She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. > > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a year of shame. > > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:36:48 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:36:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811100757l1d7ea0d6q95ecf790123404a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> <002501c9433e$ca2d75a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> <47e122a70811100757l1d7ea0d6q95ecf790123404a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811100806m26116b39gf22ed1355a687f1d@mail.gmail.com> like INDER SALIM. On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: > > in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this 'Taslima > Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements > > love > is > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: > > Dear Shudda Sengupta > > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. > > M Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > To: MRSG > > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > Dear M.Ray, > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know that > Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she will one > day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > > > > > Invitation > > > > > > > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from Kolkata > > > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > > > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > > > > > > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > > > > > > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, Shrijato, > Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit Gupta, > Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, Partho > Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. Giyasuddin and > Saswati Ghosh will speak > > > > > > > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, KOLKATA, > 6 PM > > > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of > Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always believed > that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city of Kolkata. > We also believed that. > > > > > > > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long back. > She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to > inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, Left > Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then finally > on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of Kolkata after a > day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The expulsion was > supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her earlier lectures to > the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told that Taslima should have > left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata Mukherjee said that the > violence on 21 December was like the freedom struggle. Kolkata had to > realise who really controls the so-called cultural capital of India. > Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. > > > > > > > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a > year of shame. > > > > > > > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From ravikant at sarai.net Mon Nov 10 22:25:15 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:25:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <6353c690811100806m26116b39gf22ed1355a687f1d@mail.gmail.com> References: <005301c9433a$ceeb48a0$0201a8c0@MRAY> <47e122a70811100757l1d7ea0d6q95ecf790123404a0@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811100806m26116b39gf22ed1355a687f1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811102225.15696.ravikant@sarai.net> Dear Moderator, I have been an avid reader yet mostly a lurker on this list. I have read and seen all the drama and I am glad to notice that more and more people are getting impatient with certain people who can do no better than post comments like the one posted below. I think the time has come to say good bye to some of our friends. Their track record on the list is anything but healthy for the robust growth of this list. Remember this list had a life before they came here, and it has a future. Like Shuddha, I am very tolerant of people who do not agree with me, and I do believe that you can not remain an island for far too long - the filth around will catch up with you howsoever hard you may try to escape it. But unlike him, I do not entertain any wishful thinking about them. So If these people can see niether history nor reason, and if they can't see the multildimensionality of this list, they have no business being here. I join the people who think they should be given a farewell. I don't mind a less colourful life - I will at least have more time to read better stuff - of which there has never been a dearth on this list. All they can do is spit on people they do not agree with!! That's the limit of their civility. And that's the limit to which I can go hosting them. ravikant सोमवार 10 नवम्बर 2008 21:36 को, Aditya Raj Kaul ने लिखा था: > like INDER SALIM. > > On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: > > in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this 'Taslima > > Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements > > > > love > > is > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > Dear Shudda Sengupta > > > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. > > > M Ray > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > To: MRSG > > > Cc: sarai list > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > Dear M.Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know that > > > > Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she will > > one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Invitation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from > > > Kolkata > > > > > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > > > > > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, > > > Shrijato, > > > > Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit > > Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, > > Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. > > Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak > > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, > > > KOLKATA, > > > > 6 PM > > > > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of > > > > Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of > > > > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of > > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always > > believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city > > of Kolkata. We also believed that. > > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long > > > back. > > > > She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to > > inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, > > Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then > > finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of > > Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The > > expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her > > earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told > > that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata > > Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom > > struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called > > cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. > > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a > > > > year of shame. > > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rama.sangye at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 22:30:32 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:30:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <696458.49940.qm@web301.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <696458.49940.qm@web301.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811100900maf69fabyf4e39d33f3449c6@mail.gmail.com> I think the reaction to Nader also has to do with not knowing very much about Nader. He is older than Obama. He has worked and spent more blood, sweat and tears for USA, over much longer than has Obama. Most young Americans of today would not know what he has achieved for America. Nor is he interested in holding office. His presidency efforts have been purely for the edification of his fellow Americans. That he is about as non-racist as non-racist can be is not known to many today perhaps. BTW, I attended a lecture by Nadine Gordimer this evening. Asked about the Obama victory, she clarified that Obama was not a "black" man, he was actually half black and half white, and thus symbolises the importance and potential of pluralism. From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 22:54:46 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:24:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra! In-Reply-To: <313172.51537.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <854602.68525.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Bravo Kshmendra just won! >From hence forth i am planning to ignore him. Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Lies withdrawn & Accusations questioned > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , gowharfazili at yahoo.com > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:56 PM > Dear Gowhar >   > I do not comment on every single posting about Kashmir. > Even when I feel strongly about something that might have > been mentioned, I do not always comment. Sometimes I do. >   > This List is one such public forum of record that (as far > as we know today) gets archived for 'ever' and > therefore will serve as a very convienient and easily > accesible reference library for all such > subjects/topics/issues that get mentioned on > it. Non-factual information on it needs to be challenged. >   > If one were to use on the Web the search string of > "amarnath land row" and "deaths" it > would throw up your mail saying that "The valley has > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath > land row". >   > That is not opinion but information. Incorrect information. > Thank you for having withdrawn it. >   > You might still be smarting (understandably so) by my abuse > directed at you, but that does not mean you should > misrepresent what I had written. >   > We have both regretted the death of 'innocents'. > What makes your use of that word sincere and my use as being > loaded with other meanings as suggested by you? >   > Not only did I write about the deaths of > 'innocents': >   > """"""" It is true that > 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since > the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such > death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized > society """"" >   > Going further than that, I also wrote about the deaths of > others who (by whichever standard and from whichever point > of view) might not be seen as "innocents. I wrote: >   > """""" I consider even the > deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of > violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, > regretable and avoidable.""""" >   > If it is not clear from the above and I need to spell it > out; For me any death (in context) is unfortunate, sad, > regretable, avoidable, unacceptable. >   > Since it is the season for talking about > "Accusations" on this List, let me come to those > directed by you at me. >   > 1. In the earlier mail you seem to suggest that you were a > 'special target of abuse' because you are a > "Kashmiri Muslim". I see it as an accusation that > you need to prove. >   > In your first post, neither did you identify yourself as > being a Kashmiri Muslim, nor did I recognise you as being > one when I 'abused' you. Isnt that correct? >   > On the other hand, without any such reference to myself by > me, you gave me the identity-tag of a "Brahmin". > Alongwith it you gave me attributes of attitudes of > various kinds of 'hates'. You had no justification > for doing so.   >   > My attack on you and the 'abuse' was at you as the > author of the words you had posted. You as a person and not > at any identity-tag you may carry or want to be recognised > by. >   > 2. You do need to prove all the "Accusations" > directed at me: >   > - "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and > inferior"; > - "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; > - "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and > abuse"; > - "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for > abuse". > > Gowhar, you are so very wide-off-the-mark on every one of > those accusations that it is amusing. If nothing else, my > postings on this List testify to that, so do not bother to > defend your accusations. I excuse you. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli > wrote: > > From: gowhar fazli > Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal > Abuse... > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:01 PM > > Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include > Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has > bettered > mine. I thank him for his work of genius. In fact, > between > the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they > choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality > depending on where they come from, and take moral > positions. > > > To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so > close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5" > figure and replace it with "scores of people", > "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has > become a norm" or "extraordinary number"... > For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less, > is equally criminal (notice he puts the word > 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may > not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is > innocent!) Killing a couple of hundred more or less does > not make a very big difference to the immorality of > shooting > on crowds to force them indoors. > > The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat > conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim) > and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect > identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. > But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am > glad they are both physically safe... for now. > > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim > > wrote: > > > > > From: inder salim > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to > > spitting and verbal Abuse... > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM > > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that > is > > the > > > question: A > > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and > Kshmendra > > ---- ( > > > keeping in > > > mind that the facts are stranger than fiction, > but > > the > > > reverse can > > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet > > theirs > > > only ) > > > > > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about > exact > > > statistics of > > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in > > Kashmir. > > > Even Panun > > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, > since > > late > > > nineties, > > > should have given a breather to India to bring > about a > > > serious > > > dialogue. But what do they do? > > > > > > Kshmendra: I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a > young > > > woman > > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats > she is > > > receiving... > > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I > know > > of > > > so many of > > > them who have used and subverted democratic > > institutions > > > for their own > > > interest. > > > > > > Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though > I > > agree in > > > part with yours. > > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a > daily > > > basis since > > > Amarnath land row. > > > > > > ( I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and Cosmic SHE > will be > > > talking to each > > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in > kashmir > > ?) > > > > > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair. > > > > > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine. > > > > > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' > have > > died > > > in the 'valley' > > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I > consider > > any > > > such death as > > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized > > society. > > > But yours, > > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the > > 'theatre > > > of false propaganda. > > > > > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom > you > > do > > > not like or > > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a > > > 'moron' > > > > > > Kshmendra : for sure you are a "moron' > and a > > > "filthy liar" and fully > > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'. > > > > > > Gowhar : 'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how > > Kashmiris > > > should behave > > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership > has to > > > suite India's > > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' > that > > the > > > basic > > > conditions for such an exercise and the > atmosphere to > > > engender such a > > > collectively have been systematically removed > from > > Kashmir; > > > Just to > > > keep people from demonstrating for Azadi or > > protesting > > > against > > > elections… > > > > > > > > > > > > to be continued.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili > > > > > > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is > > something > > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in > 'aside' > > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of > > > information. In this case your 'filthy > lie' > > of: > > > > > > > > """""" The > valley > > has > > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis > since > > Amarnath > > > land > row.""""""" > > > > > > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2) > > > > > > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy > lie' > > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might > be > > it's > > > author, whether in a factual representation or in > a > > > fictional one. > > > > > > > > If you are not the protagonist > "HE" in > > your > > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed > about > > any > > > comments directed at "HIM". > > > > > > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to > > describe > > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) > is a > > word > > > that I have not introduced into this List to > describe > > > someone like you. > > > > > > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in > your > > > conversation piece then for sure you are a > > "moron' > > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving > of > > what > > > you call 'abuse'. > > > > > > > > You whine that I should have placed > 'counter > > > figures' of what you think would be "a > dozen > > more > > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine > > considering > > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) > realistic > > > 'death count' and the 'figures' > > suggested by > > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count > of 2 > > to > > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. > > There, one > > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot. > > > > > > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started > > sometime > > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since > it > > started. > > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to > 5', > > the > > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. > Do > > you see > > > what an 'idiot' you are? > > > > > > > > In this particular case let me distort the > > application > > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The > "Latin > > legal > > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, > non qui > > negat > > > (the > > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on > who > > > denies)" In this case your assertion of > > > """""" The valley > has > > seen two > > > to five people dead on a daily basis since > Amarnath > > land > > > row.""""""" > > > > > > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to > place > > me > > > into a compartment for which you have the > identifying > > > construct of "abused as a child"; > > "severe > > > mental imbalance"; "(needing) > psychological > > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you > are > > impure > > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as > to > > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current > objects > > of hate > > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as > special > > > targets for abuse". > > > > > > > > This is one more 'theatrical device' > in > > the > > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If > questioned > > about > > > "filthy lies" for which you have no > > justifiable, > > > credible and believable response you attack the > > questioner > > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her > that > > will > > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with > suspicion and > > shift > > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'. > > > > > > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me > can > > only > > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not > excuse > > your > > > "filthy lie" > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > From: gowhar fazli > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more > to > > spitting > > > and verbal Abuse... > > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM > > > > > > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... > > > Kshmendra's use of this language > > > > against me on the readers list suggests he > might > > have > > > been abused as a child. > > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being > > abused as > > > a child can create severe > > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among > > people. It > > > might be high time for > > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological > help > > > because it has bearing on his > > > > quality of life and of those around him. > > > > > > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the > > 'HE' > > > in the dialogue I > > > > posted... in which case he could have placed > his > > > counter figures (say a couple > > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and > decently > > asked > > > for the source....There was > > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive. > > > > > > > > The other more profound explanation could be > that > > it > > > forms part of his > > > > socialisation and culture. Brahmin's > have > > long > > > held it to be their right to > > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and > > inferior. > > > So in this light, cases > > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not > like or > > > calling somebody a 'filthy > > > > liar' or a 'moron' might be an > > attempt to > > > reclaim that right and > > > > culture against the current community they > hate, > > or to > > > use a turn of phrase, > > > > want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be > the > > current > > > objects of hate and insult > > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most > > assertive > > > among them, they happen to > > > > be the special targetsof abuse. > > > > > > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about > exact > > > statistics of the dead, but two > > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... > Hers, > > that > > > the democratic exercise > > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the > > collective > > > good... His, that the > > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and > the > > > atmosphere to engender such a > > > > collectivity have been systematically > removed > > Kashmir. > > > > > > > > Is it strange that he did not have any > opinion on > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A > > filthy > > > lie by Gowhar Fazli. > > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > , > > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com > > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 > PM > > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli > > > >> > > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the > > conversation > > > you have > > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself > are > > the > > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy > liar. > > > >> > > > >> I refer to the statement: > > > >> > > > >> """""" > The > > valley > > > has seen > > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > > since > > > Amarnath land > > > >> > > row.""""""" > > > >> > > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have > died > > in > > > the > > > >> 'valley' since the start of the > > Amarnath > > > Land Row. I > > > >> consider any such death as sad, > unfortunate > > and > > > unacceptable > > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even > the > > > deaths of > > > >> those who have consciously chosen the > path of > > > violence to > > > >> further their agenda as being sad, > > unfortunate, > > > regretable > > > >> and avoidable. > > > >> > > > >> But that does not mean that > 'morons' > > like > > > >> you should have the licence to float > blatant > > lies > > > on this > > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with > the > > smug > > > >> thought that you will not be questioned. > > > >> > > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you > a > > > 'filthy > > > >> liar'? > > > >> > > > >> I invite you to evidence the statement > of 2 > > to 5 > > > deaths > > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the > start > > of > > > the > > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any > > credible > > > news source > > > >> of your choice. A credible news source > would > > for > > > sure have > > > >> a presence on the Web where your > statement > > can be > > > confirmed > > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being > a > > > 'filthy > > > >> lie' as I have called it. > > > >> > > > >> Kshmendra > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> From: gowhar fazli > > > > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah > Muah! > > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > >> > > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 > PM > > > >> > > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! > > (Commenting > > > on my > > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!) > > > >> > > > >> HE: :) > > > >> > > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance > and > > > bollywud magic > > > >> that day on tv > > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and > > > kisses....wah!!! > > > >> > > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one > in > > > Kashmir n one > > > >> in US! > > > >> > > > >> SHE: How can there be any > comparison.....look > > at > > > the > > > >> conduct of political > > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for > each > > > other....more > > > >> to blame is also > > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream > > > India......in fact in > > > >> south Asia, the > > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote > bank > > and > > > slur....we > > > >> still have to grow as > > > >> a democracy...remember we are only > 60..as > > compared > > > to US > > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir > > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what > exactly > > they > > > blame > > > >> the Indian govt of > > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, > a > > young > > > woman > > > >> contesting from > > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is > > > receiving... what > > > >> does the Hurriyat want > > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of > them > > who > > > have used > > > >> and subverted > > > >> democratic institutions for their own > > interest. U > > > know the > > > >> major draw back in > > > >> our part of the world is that we do not > have > > the > > > courage > > > >> for self correctness, > > > >> self introspection.....USA did > that....they > > have > > > brought in > > > >> change...I admire > > > >> that... > > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... > > > >> > > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this > though I > > agree > > > in part > > > >> with yours > > > >> > > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to > Kashmir > > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a > call > > for > > > Jamia > > > >> Chalo for killing of 5 > > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... > > > >> > > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people > > protested > > > in Kashmir > > > >> for Azadi and were > > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the > protests... > > > Kashmir is in > > > >> no mood for election > > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed... > > without > > > any > > > >> negotiation with the > > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the > > government > > > can offer > > > >> is to impose a > > > >> conventional election to meet its > deadline to > > show > > > that all > > > >> is well in Kashmir. > > > >> It is not. > > > >> I think the bigger problem is this not > the > > > morality of > > > >> our local politicians. > > > >> the conditions we live in can only > produce > > the > > > kind of > > > >> politicians we presently > > > >> have. > > > >> USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush > for > > eight > > > years > > > >> before it was time for > > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi > decides > > how > > > Kashmiris > > > >> should behave and who > > > >> should be in power. > > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite > India's > > > self-image its > > > >> foreign policy and > > > >> morality. > > > >> > > > >> SHE: you forget that people who are > standing > > for > > > elections > > > >> ( record number > > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each > other > > , > > > their party > > > >> workers shouting anti > > > >> India slogans ) or people wanting to > vote > > are > > > also > > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun > > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though > for > > > different > > > >> reasons. They are > > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who > want > > to > > > vote are > > > >> Kashmiris too...so are > > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are > > Ladhakis , > > > Poocnhis, > > > >> etc who want to > > > >> vote...no one is shying away from > resolving > > the > > > >> issue...spell out the agenda > > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why > > intimidate > > > them, > > > >> kill them...why instill > > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say > > they..I > > > mean all > > > >> those, religious > > > >> groups, media, separatist so called > > > nationalist.... who > > > >> want to build their own > > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu > or > > anywhere > > > >> else...as I said we need to > > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues > is > > bit > > > >> difficult... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> HE: I didn't forget them... > Ladakhis, > > Pandits, > > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who > > > >> want to vote for various reasons... Yet > > > daily > > > killing to > > > >> keep people to keep > > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or > > protesting > > > against > > > >> elections (peacefully I > > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily > armed > > > security forces > > > >> from by lanes as > > > >> serious violence especially when you are > > > permanently held > > > >> under section 144) > > > >> cannot be justified because some people > there > > or > > > elsewhere > > > >> want to vote. The > > > >> context in which elections are happening > is > > pure > > > >> imposition... more of what has > > > >> been happening all along. > > > >> Given the circumstances in Kashmir, > spelling > > out > > > agendas > > > >> is not possible and > > > >> largely the establishment which wields > power > > in > > > Kashmir is > > > >> responsible for > > > >> maintaining such a situation there. > There > > is > > > too much > > > >> intelligence > > > >> interference... too much security > structure > > to > > > allow people > > > >> to breathe... let > > > >> alone have a Democratic process. Too > much of > > > humiliation > > > >> on the daily basis to > > > >> let a person feel human enough... Even > > those who > > > were > > > >> alienated from religion > > > >> or primordial identities are being > pushed to > > adopt > > > these > > > >> for bare survival. In > > > >> wake of this the only articulation that > is > > > possible is hate > > > >> or violence. You > > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and > ask > > him/her > > > to talk > > > >> peace. They might > > > >> oblige until you get off... but then > hate you > > with > > > all the > > > >> intensity they can > > > >> muster soon after that. > > > >> I think the situation is like this... > We > > have > > > beaten > > > >> Kashmiris to the point of > > > >> making them into brutes... and now we > justify > > the > > > >> continuity of violence by > > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and > > deserve > > > it! > > > >> Two stints of stooge governments in > Kashmir > > since > > > late > > > >> nineties should have > > > >> given a breather to India to bring about > a > > serious > > > >> dialogue. But what do they > > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is > the > > solution > > > and > > > >> squander the chance. > > > >> We cannot maintain the facade of moral > > preachers > > > after all > > > >> that has happened > > > >> in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in > shame > > and > > > let the > > > >> people have their say. > > > >> Even though what they decide might not > be to > > our > > > liking and > > > >> in our opinion > > > >> disastrous for them. Too often our > personal > > > interests get > > > >> enmeshed with our > > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment > such > > that we > > > cannot > > > >> see what is actually > > > >> happening to people. > > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing > > judgments > > > on the > > > >> people of Kashmir and > > > >> demonizing them. I hope more of the > civil > > society > > > >> activists who engage with > > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so. > > > >> > > > >> When you refer to intimidation and > killing i > > am > > > surprised > > > >> that you miss out the > > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right > > now... the > > > CRPF! > > > >> You see we percieve > > > >> different realities because of where > each of > > us is > > > located. > > > >> The valley has seen > > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > > since > > > Amarnath > > > >> land row. This seems to > > > >> be the current policy. CRPF is > communalised. > > I > > > have my > > > >> batchmates within the > > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts > of > > how the > > > force > > > >> percieves ordinary > > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed > or > > > humiliated for > > > >> no reason but for > > > >> what they are. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media > > and > > > the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in > > > >> the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > >> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From fatimaschool45 at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 22:56:24 2008 From: fatimaschool45 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmF0aW1hIOCkq+CkvOCkvuCkpOCkv+CkruCkvg==?=) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:56:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Sarai Moderator, While I respect and sympathize with the cause of Kashmiri pandits (as much as I cry for the plight of Kashmiri Muslims), I would love to see a healthier Sarai list with more respect, tolerance, and patience from every one. I fully support freedom of expression, but I have no room for any kind of personal attacks and insults. I support the removal of these people who were asked to provide a proof of their accusations but have failed to do so. regrds Fatima On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > Lal Salaam Aarti, > > You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write > just *anything*. > > Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only > voice of Kashmiri Hindus. > > I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and for > a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside > India would have their support structures. > > if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other world. > And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem. > > I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology. > > Pawan > PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic > group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would > have been right to object. > > > > On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >> Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things >> I >> am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going >> to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said >> about >> you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh? >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> >>> lal Salaam,, >>> >>> Arti, >>> >>> Are u a moderator ? >>> >>> pawan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >>> >>>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter >>>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our >>>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing >>>> but >>>> bleats to offer. >>>> >>>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If >>>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded >>>> it >>>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate >>>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not >>>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as >>>> well. >>>> >>>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. >>>> The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put >>>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not >>>> the >>>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) >>>> where >>>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. >>>> >>>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations >>>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask >>>> yourself >>>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, >>>> rather >>>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. >>>> >>>> Warm regards >>>> (as it seems for the last time) >>>> >>>> Aarti >>>> >>>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any >>>> private communications with you at all. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lastly, >>>>> >>>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >>>>> which >>>>> I can understand. >>>>> >>>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have >>>>> a >>>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >>>>> member. >>>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? >>>>> ] >>>>> >>>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >>>>> >>>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest >>>>> the >>>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than >>>>> double >>>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in >>>>> my >>>>> ideology. >>>>> >>>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can >>>>> understand >>>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe >>>>> in >>>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If >>>>> i >>>>> am >>>>> really a hurdle. >>>>> >>>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >>>>> >>>>> regards >>>>> >>>>> Pawan Durani >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Kirdar, >>>>> > >>>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What >>>>> > makes >>>>> him >>>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >>>>> > >>>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of >>>>> this >>>>> > group. >>>>> > >>>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >>>>> > >>>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >>>>> > >>>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >>>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt >>>>> have one. >>>>> > >>>>> > Pawan >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Dear Pawan >>>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >>>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri >>>>> >> pundits >>>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >>>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >>>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >>>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >>>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" >>>>> - >>>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise >>>>> >> concerns >>>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >>>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all >>>>> >> Muslims >>>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >>>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are >>>>> >> simply >>>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >>>>> >> about the plight of KPs. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >>>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the >>>>> >> clock >>>>> >> is ticking. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Kirdar >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < >>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> > Dear Kirdar, >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they >>>>> come >>>>> >> from . >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the >>>>> >> > supporters >>>>> of >>>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one >>>>> >> > ,.......unless >>>>> he >>>>> >> > considers himself one. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >>>>> >> Geelani >>>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i >>>>> write >>>>> >> that >>>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >>>>> >> investigated.What >>>>> >> > makes the two different ? >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >>>>> certain >>>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it >>>>> >> > happens >>>>> in >>>>> >> all >>>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless >>>>> he co >>>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members >>>>> and >>>>> >> non >>>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >>>>> just >>>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust >>>>> anyone >>>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >>>>> this >>>>> >> list >>>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are >>>>> >> > surrogate >>>>> >> ..... >>>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >>>>> >> himself >>>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv >>>>> Sena , >>>>> >> Panun >>>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >>>>> wrong >>>>> >> with >>>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >>>>> >> However i >>>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one >>>>> >> > of >>>>> the >>>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >>>>> member >>>>> >> as we >>>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >>>>> advise. >>>>> >> But >>>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone >>>>> of >>>>> >> these. >>>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against >>>>> >> > all >>>>> >> odds. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >>>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >>>>> pandits >>>>> >> world >>>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >>>>> scuttle >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons >>>>> >> > ? >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >>>>> Chinese >>>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why >>>>> does it >>>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers >>>>> >> > himself >>>>> a >>>>> >> > supporter of that ? >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate >>>>> >> > freedom >>>>> is >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >>>>> >> undergone >>>>> >> > Exodus and genocide. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. >>>>> >> > I >>>>> >> myself >>>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word >>>>> and >>>>> >> what >>>>> >> > not to word. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >>>>> challenge >>>>> >> a >>>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >>>>> and >>>>> >> > others be removed. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , >>>>> so >>>>> >> they do >>>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Regards >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Pawan Durani >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> Dear Pawan >>>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a >>>>> >> >> specific >>>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >>>>> foreign >>>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >>>>> such >>>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >>>>> think >>>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >>>>> that >>>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you >>>>> are >>>>> >> >> gone. >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point >>>>> >> >> rather >>>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >>>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, >>>>> please >>>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations >>>>> you >>>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >>>>> Maybe >>>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >>>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> Kirdar >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >> > Dear All, >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>>>> >> exposed. >>>>> >> >> > The >>>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like >>>>> me , >>>>> >> >> > Aditya , >>>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >>>>> >> nothing >>>>> >> >> > but >>>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , >>>>> >> >> > Inder >>>>> , >>>>> >> >> > Shivam >>>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > Pawan >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Dear All, >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on >>>>> our >>>>> >> list, >>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >>>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun >>>>> Kashmir' >>>>> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >>>>> with >>>>> >> >> >> detailed >>>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their >>>>> 'case', >>>>> >> >> >> habitually >>>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express >>>>> their >>>>> >> >> >> desires to >>>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >>>>> goon >>>>> >> >> >> allies >>>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at >>>>> the >>>>> >> >> >> university. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >>>>> this >>>>> >> >> >> list, >>>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>>>> >> associated >>>>> >> >> >> with >>>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>>>> >> >> >> insinuations >>>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from >>>>> Aditya Raj >>>>> >> >> >> Kaul) >>>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK >>>>> gospel or >>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >>>>> doing >>>>> >> so >>>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>>>> >> masters' >>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >>>>> ethical >>>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >>>>> these >>>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >>>>> >> position >>>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing >>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>> >> account >>>>> >> >> >> for >>>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >>>>> being >>>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >>>>> So, >>>>> >> >> >> 'writers' >>>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a >>>>> paid >>>>> >> agent, >>>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >>>>> made >>>>> >> when >>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay >>>>> >> >> >> Kak's >>>>> >> >> >> propoganda >>>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because >>>>> >> >> >> they >>>>> are >>>>> >> >> >> being >>>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >>>>> their >>>>> >> >> >> local >>>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >>>>> foreign >>>>> >> >> >> hand' >>>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that >>>>> Indian >>>>> >> >> >> politicians >>>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else >>>>> fails. It >>>>> >> is >>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect >>>>> with >>>>> >> >> >> reality and >>>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to >>>>> hide but >>>>> >> >> >> fails >>>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >>>>> Jabbar >>>>> >> on >>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >>>>> Durani >>>>> >> >> >> keeps, >>>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots >>>>> >> >> >> in >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir' >>>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >>>>> write >>>>> >> for >>>>> >> >> >> their >>>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >>>>> that >>>>> >> >> >> these >>>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem >>>>> to be >>>>> >> >> >> doing >>>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>>>> >> beholden >>>>> >> >> >> to. >>>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >>>>> admitting >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >>>>> their >>>>> >> own >>>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >>>>> doesn't >>>>> >> >> >> agree >>>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific >>>>> occasions >>>>> >> when >>>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK >>>>> hard >>>>> >> line >>>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, >>>>> Aarti >>>>> >> has >>>>> >> >> >> been >>>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >>>>> accused >>>>> >> of >>>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >>>>> specific >>>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >>>>> called >>>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not >>>>> take >>>>> >> this >>>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >>>>> casually >>>>> >> >> >> either. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are >>>>> >> >> >> writing >>>>> what >>>>> >> we >>>>> >> >> >> are >>>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >>>>> 'terrorist' is >>>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >>>>> willing >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> >> >> take >>>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my >>>>> bank >>>>> >> >> >> accounts >>>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani >>>>> should >>>>> >> think >>>>> >> >> >> that >>>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >>>>> purchase >>>>> >> at >>>>> >> >> >> such >>>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >>>>> hired >>>>> >> hack >>>>> >> >> >> who >>>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >>>>> >> leavings >>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No >>>>> one is >>>>> >> >> >> paid by >>>>> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. >>>>> No >>>>> >> >> >> payments >>>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >>>>> writing >>>>> >> >> >> either. >>>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include >>>>> writing on >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> Reader List either. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, >>>>> to >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> Sarai >>>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and >>>>> >> >> >> my >>>>> >> >> >> professional >>>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >>>>> >> especially >>>>> >> >> >> as >>>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >>>>> willing >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> >> >> ignore >>>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not >>>>> >> >> >> been >>>>> >> thrown >>>>> >> >> >> in >>>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two >>>>> weeks, >>>>> >> then >>>>> >> >> >> we >>>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >>>>> think >>>>> >> >> >> deserves >>>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >>>>> quote >>>>> >> >> >> with >>>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it >>>>> >> >> >> is >>>>> >> taken, >>>>> >> >> >> so >>>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My >>>>> >> >> >> comments >>>>> >> follow >>>>> >> >> >> each >>>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>>>> >> capitalized >>>>> >> >> >> for >>>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> -------------------------- >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 1. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A >>>>> FOREIGN >>>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >>>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , >>>>> Parlaiment >>>>> >> case >>>>> >> >> >> are >>>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and >>>>> their >>>>> >> links >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will >>>>> >> >> >> come >>>>> out >>>>> >> >> >> soon..." >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >>>>> the >>>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >>>>> backed >>>>> >> by >>>>> >> >> >> a >>>>> >> >> >> foreign country' >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are >>>>> being >>>>> >> >> >> ascertained' >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with >>>>> >> >> >> details >>>>> of >>>>> >> how >>>>> >> >> >> he >>>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) >>>>> >> >> >> above, >>>>> or >>>>> >> >> >> stand >>>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>>>> >> character >>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like >>>>> to >>>>> >> know >>>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not >>>>> to >>>>> >> count >>>>> >> >> >> as >>>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 2. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A >>>>> >> >> >> FULL >>>>> TIME >>>>> >> >> >> JOB >>>>> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >>>>> neither >>>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the >>>>> Reader >>>>> >> List >>>>> >> >> >> on any >>>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >>>>> want >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> >> >> know >>>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >>>>> Reader >>>>> >> List >>>>> >> >> >> is a >>>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>>>> >> substantiate >>>>> >> >> >> this, >>>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >>>>> what I >>>>> >> >> >> do, or >>>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid >>>>> for >>>>> >> this. >>>>> >> >> >> In >>>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot >>>>> >> >> >> substantiate >>>>> this >>>>> >> >> >> charge, >>>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from >>>>> this >>>>> >> list, >>>>> >> >> >> or >>>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 3. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>>> Displacement >>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >>>>> JOB, >>>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE >>>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>>>> >> support >>>>> >> >> >> their >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >>>>> from >>>>> >> >> >> reading >>>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' >>>>> (again >>>>> >> >> >> because >>>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have >>>>> asked >>>>> >> >> >> immediately >>>>> >> >> >> before this still hold. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 4. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>>> Displacement >>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long >>>>> >> >> >> mail, >>>>> and >>>>> >> >> >> also IT >>>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write >>>>> in the >>>>> >> >> >> way he >>>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 5. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>>> Displacement >>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS >>>>> >> >> >> MASTERS >>>>> and >>>>> >> we >>>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts >>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>> me >>>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani >>>>> have a >>>>> >> >> >> list of >>>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is >>>>> >> >> >> making >>>>> here >>>>> >> >> >> that I >>>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >>>>> have >>>>> >> this >>>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >>>>> should >>>>> >> be >>>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 6. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally >>>>> >> >> >> displaced >>>>> >> >> >> persons' >>>>> >> >> >> status >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >>>>> what I >>>>> >> >> >> mean." >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not >>>>> >> >> >> agree >>>>> with >>>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What >>>>> does >>>>> >> >> >> "Chinese >>>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>>>> >> Kuomintang >>>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >>>>> preference >>>>> >> for >>>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>>>> >> >> >> referring to >>>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >>>>> >> specifically >>>>> >> >> >> those >>>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and >>>>> the >>>>> >> >> >> government >>>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the >>>>> >> >> >> people >>>>> he >>>>> >> >> >> would >>>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>>>> >> critics >>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>>>> >> government >>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact >>>>> gone on >>>>> >> >> >> record >>>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >>>>> >> government >>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >>>>> Government >>>>> >> of >>>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >>>>> >> baseless. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 7. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally >>>>> >> >> >> displaced >>>>> >> >> >> persons' >>>>> >> >> >> status >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >>>>> MASTERS >>>>> >> >> >> TONE..." >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >>>>> insinuation >>>>> >> >> >> that >>>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who >>>>> act at >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> ----------------- >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> __________________________ >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >>>>> (from >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> date >>>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >>>>> proof >>>>> >> >> >> for >>>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>>>> >> >> >> scurrilous >>>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one >>>>> day. >>>>> >> Or, >>>>> >> >> >> if >>>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, >>>>> motivated and >>>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >>>>> the >>>>> >> >> >> list >>>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list >>>>> >> >> >> with >>>>> >> >> >> immediate >>>>> >> >> >> effect. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been >>>>> in >>>>> >> >> >> favour of >>>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >>>>> and a >>>>> >> >> >> half) >>>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >>>>> (in >>>>> >> >> >> serious >>>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with >>>>> their >>>>> >> >> >> rubbish >>>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his >>>>> expulsion on >>>>> >> >> >> grounds >>>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give >>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>> >> benefit >>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' >>>>> especially >>>>> >> when >>>>> >> >> >> I do >>>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >>>>> anger >>>>> >> >> >> need a >>>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >>>>> Aditya >>>>> >> Raj >>>>> >> >> >> Kaul >>>>> >> >> >> and their allies. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >>>>> that >>>>> >> they >>>>> >> >> >> can >>>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>>>> >> >> >> conjecture. >>>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>>>> >> arguments >>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >>>>> >> personal >>>>> >> >> >> lives >>>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >>>>> spread >>>>> >> >> >> poison >>>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >>>>> There >>>>> >> have >>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do >>>>> >> >> >> by >>>>> a >>>>> >> >> >> foreign >>>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >>>>> am, or >>>>> >> I >>>>> >> >> >> am >>>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >>>>> >> suggests >>>>> >> >> >> that I >>>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >>>>> >> statement >>>>> >> >> >> about >>>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only >>>>> way to >>>>> >> >> >> settle >>>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >>>>> allegation >>>>> >> >> >> proves >>>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >>>>> witness. >>>>> >> The >>>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >>>>> serious >>>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a >>>>> 'foreign >>>>> >> power' >>>>> >> >> >> in >>>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >>>>> Such >>>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >>>>> libel >>>>> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection >>>>> on the >>>>> >> >> >> grounds >>>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >>>>> and >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to >>>>> >> >> >> defame >>>>> a >>>>> >> >> >> person or >>>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>>>> >> conceal. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> regards >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Shuddha >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >>>>> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 23:13:40 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:43:40 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Count me in. 2008/11/10 Fatima फ़ातिमा : > Dear Sarai Moderator, > > While I respect and sympathize with the cause of Kashmiri pandits (as > much as I cry for the plight of Kashmiri Muslims), I would love to see > a healthier Sarai list with more respect, tolerance, and patience from > every one. I fully support freedom of expression, but I have no room > for any kind of personal attacks and insults. > > I support the removal of these people who were asked to provide a > proof of their accusations but have failed to do so. > > regrds > > Fatima > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> Lal Salaam Aarti, >> >> You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write >> just *anything*. >> >> Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only >> voice of Kashmiri Hindus. >> >> I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and for >> a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside >> India would have their support structures. >> >> if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other world. >> And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem. >> >> I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology. >> >> Pawan >> PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic >> group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would >> have been right to object. >> >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >>> >>> Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things >>> I >>> am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going >>> to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said >>> about >>> you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh? >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani >>> wrote: >>> >>>> lal Salaam,, >>>> >>>> Arti, >>>> >>>> Are u a moderator ? >>>> >>>> pawan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter >>>>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our >>>>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing >>>>> but >>>>> bleats to offer. >>>>> >>>>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If >>>>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded >>>>> it >>>>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate >>>>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not >>>>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as >>>>> well. >>>>> >>>>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. >>>>> The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put >>>>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not >>>>> the >>>>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) >>>>> where >>>>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. >>>>> >>>>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations >>>>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask >>>>> yourself >>>>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, >>>>> rather >>>>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards >>>>> (as it seems for the last time) >>>>> >>>>> Aarti >>>>> >>>>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any >>>>> private communications with you at all. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lastly, >>>>>> >>>>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology >>>>>> which >>>>>> I can understand. >>>>>> >>>>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have >>>>>> a >>>>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any >>>>>> member. >>>>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? >>>>>> ] >>>>>> >>>>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest >>>>>> the >>>>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than >>>>>> double >>>>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in >>>>>> my >>>>>> ideology. >>>>>> >>>>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can >>>>>> understand >>>>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe >>>>>> in >>>>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If >>>>>> i >>>>>> am >>>>>> really a hurdle. >>>>>> >>>>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. >>>>>> >>>>>> regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Pawan Durani >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Kirdar, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What >>>>>> > makes >>>>>> him >>>>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of >>>>>> this >>>>>> > group. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont >>>>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt >>>>>> have one. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Pawan >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Dear Pawan >>>>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >>>>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri >>>>>> >> pundits >>>>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >>>>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >>>>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >>>>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >>>>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" >>>>>> - >>>>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise >>>>>> >> concerns >>>>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >>>>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all >>>>>> >> Muslims >>>>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >>>>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are >>>>>> >> simply >>>>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >>>>>> >> about the plight of KPs. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >>>>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the >>>>>> >> clock >>>>>> >> is ticking. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Kirdar >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < >>>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >> > Dear Kirdar, >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they >>>>>> come >>>>>> >> from . >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the >>>>>> >> > supporters >>>>>> of >>>>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one >>>>>> >> > ,.......unless >>>>>> he >>>>>> >> > considers himself one. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >>>>>> >> Geelani >>>>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i >>>>>> write >>>>>> >> that >>>>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >>>>>> >> investigated.What >>>>>> >> > makes the two different ? >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of >>>>>> certain >>>>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it >>>>>> >> > happens >>>>>> in >>>>>> >> all >>>>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless >>>>>> he co >>>>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members >>>>>> and >>>>>> >> non >>>>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates >>>>>> just >>>>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust >>>>>> anyone >>>>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on >>>>>> this >>>>>> >> list >>>>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are >>>>>> >> > surrogate >>>>>> >> ..... >>>>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >>>>>> >> himself >>>>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv >>>>>> Sena , >>>>>> >> Panun >>>>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything >>>>>> wrong >>>>>> >> with >>>>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >>>>>> >> However i >>>>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one >>>>>> >> > of >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its >>>>>> member >>>>>> >> as we >>>>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for >>>>>> advise. >>>>>> >> But >>>>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone >>>>>> of >>>>>> >> these. >>>>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against >>>>>> >> > all >>>>>> >> odds. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >>>>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri >>>>>> pandits >>>>>> >> world >>>>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to >>>>>> scuttle >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons >>>>>> >> > ? >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with >>>>>> Chinese >>>>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why >>>>>> does it >>>>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers >>>>>> >> > himself >>>>>> a >>>>>> >> > supporter of that ? >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate >>>>>> >> > freedom >>>>>> is >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >>>>>> >> undergone >>>>>> >> > Exodus and genocide. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. >>>>>> >> > I >>>>>> >> myself >>>>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word >>>>>> and >>>>>> >> what >>>>>> >> > not to word. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not >>>>>> challenge >>>>>> >> a >>>>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha >>>>>> and >>>>>> >> > others be removed. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , >>>>>> so >>>>>> >> they do >>>>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > Regards >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > Pawan Durani >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> Dear Pawan >>>>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a >>>>>> >> >> specific >>>>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of >>>>>> foreign >>>>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support >>>>>> such >>>>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half >>>>>> that >>>>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you >>>>>> are >>>>>> >> >> gone. >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point >>>>>> >> >> rather >>>>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >>>>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, >>>>>> please >>>>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations >>>>>> you >>>>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. >>>>>> Maybe >>>>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >>>>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> Kirdar >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < >>>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> >> wrote: >>>>>> >> >> > Dear All, >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>>>>> >> exposed. >>>>>> >> >> > The >>>>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like >>>>>> me , >>>>>> >> >> > Aditya , >>>>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >>>>>> >> nothing >>>>>> >> >> > but >>>>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , >>>>>> >> >> > Inder >>>>>> , >>>>>> >> >> > Shivam >>>>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be. >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > Pawan >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > >>>>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Dear All, >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on >>>>>> our >>>>>> >> list, >>>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>>>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it >>>>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun >>>>>> Kashmir' >>>>>> >> and >>>>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced >>>>>> with >>>>>> >> >> >> detailed >>>>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their >>>>>> 'case', >>>>>> >> >> >> habitually >>>>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express >>>>>> their >>>>>> >> >> >> desires to >>>>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena >>>>>> goon >>>>>> >> >> >> allies >>>>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> >> >> university. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in >>>>>> this >>>>>> >> >> >> list, >>>>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>>>>> >> associated >>>>>> >> >> >> with >>>>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>>>>> >> >> >> insinuations >>>>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from >>>>>> Aditya Raj >>>>>> >> >> >> Kaul) >>>>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK >>>>>> gospel or >>>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be >>>>>> doing >>>>>> >> so >>>>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>>>>> >> masters' >>>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their >>>>>> ethical >>>>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of >>>>>> these >>>>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >>>>>> >> position >>>>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing >>>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>>> >> account >>>>>> >> >> >> for >>>>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of >>>>>> being >>>>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. >>>>>> So, >>>>>> >> >> >> 'writers' >>>>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a >>>>>> paid >>>>>> >> agent, >>>>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was >>>>>> made >>>>>> >> when >>>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay >>>>>> >> >> >> Kak's >>>>>> >> >> >> propoganda >>>>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because >>>>>> >> >> >> they >>>>>> are >>>>>> >> >> >> being >>>>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >>>>>> their >>>>>> >> >> >> local >>>>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the >>>>>> foreign >>>>>> >> >> >> hand' >>>>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that >>>>>> Indian >>>>>> >> >> >> politicians >>>>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else >>>>>> fails. It >>>>>> >> is >>>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect >>>>>> with >>>>>> >> >> >> reality and >>>>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to >>>>>> hide but >>>>>> >> >> >> fails >>>>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia >>>>>> Jabbar >>>>>> >> on >>>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. >>>>>> Durani >>>>>> >> >> >> keeps, >>>>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots >>>>>> >> >> >> in >>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir' >>>>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to >>>>>> write >>>>>> >> for >>>>>> >> >> >> their >>>>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one >>>>>> that >>>>>> >> >> >> these >>>>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem >>>>>> to be >>>>>> >> >> >> doing >>>>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>>>>> >> beholden >>>>>> >> >> >> to. >>>>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers >>>>>> admitting >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as >>>>>> their >>>>>> >> own >>>>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who >>>>>> doesn't >>>>>> >> >> >> agree >>>>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific >>>>>> occasions >>>>>> >> when >>>>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK >>>>>> hard >>>>>> >> line >>>>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, >>>>>> Aarti >>>>>> >> has >>>>>> >> >> >> been >>>>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >>>>>> accused >>>>>> >> of >>>>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two >>>>>> specific >>>>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been >>>>>> called >>>>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not >>>>>> take >>>>>> >> this >>>>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made >>>>>> casually >>>>>> >> >> >> either. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are >>>>>> >> >> >> writing >>>>>> what >>>>>> >> we >>>>>> >> >> >> are >>>>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >>>>>> 'terrorist' is >>>>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am >>>>>> willing >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> >> >> take >>>>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my >>>>>> bank >>>>>> >> >> >> accounts >>>>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani >>>>>> should >>>>>> >> think >>>>>> >> >> >> that >>>>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for >>>>>> purchase >>>>>> >> at >>>>>> >> >> >> such >>>>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a >>>>>> hired >>>>>> >> hack >>>>>> >> >> >> who >>>>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and >>>>>> >> leavings >>>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No >>>>>> one is >>>>>> >> >> >> paid by >>>>>> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. >>>>>> No >>>>>> >> >> >> payments >>>>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of >>>>>> writing >>>>>> >> >> >> either. >>>>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include >>>>>> writing on >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> Reader List either. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, >>>>>> to >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> Sarai >>>>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and >>>>>> >> >> >> my >>>>>> >> >> >> professional >>>>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >>>>>> >> especially >>>>>> >> >> >> as >>>>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been >>>>>> willing >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> >> >> ignore >>>>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not >>>>>> >> >> >> been >>>>>> >> thrown >>>>>> >> >> >> in >>>>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two >>>>>> weeks, >>>>>> >> then >>>>>> >> >> >> we >>>>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not >>>>>> think >>>>>> >> >> >> deserves >>>>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each >>>>>> quote >>>>>> >> >> >> with >>>>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it >>>>>> >> >> >> is >>>>>> >> taken, >>>>>> >> >> >> so >>>>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My >>>>>> >> >> >> comments >>>>>> >> follow >>>>>> >> >> >> each >>>>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>>>>> >> capitalized >>>>>> >> >> >> for >>>>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> -------------------------- >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 1. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A >>>>>> FOREIGN >>>>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY , >>>>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>>>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , >>>>>> Parlaiment >>>>>> >> case >>>>>> >> >> >> are >>>>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and >>>>>> their >>>>>> >> links >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will >>>>>> >> >> >> come >>>>>> out >>>>>> >> >> >> soon..." >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort >>>>>> backed >>>>>> >> by >>>>>> >> >> >> a >>>>>> >> >> >> foreign country' >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are >>>>>> being >>>>>> >> >> >> ascertained' >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with >>>>>> >> >> >> details >>>>>> of >>>>>> >> how >>>>>> >> >> >> he >>>>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) >>>>>> >> >> >> above, >>>>>> or >>>>>> >> >> >> stand >>>>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>>>>> >> character >>>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like >>>>>> to >>>>>> >> know >>>>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not >>>>>> to >>>>>> >> count >>>>>> >> >> >> as >>>>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 2. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A >>>>>> >> >> >> FULL >>>>>> TIME >>>>>> >> >> >> JOB >>>>>> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am >>>>>> neither >>>>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the >>>>>> Reader >>>>>> >> List >>>>>> >> >> >> on any >>>>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >>>>>> want >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> >> >> know >>>>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the >>>>>> Reader >>>>>> >> List >>>>>> >> >> >> is a >>>>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>>>>> >> substantiate >>>>>> >> >> >> this, >>>>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say >>>>>> what I >>>>>> >> >> >> do, or >>>>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid >>>>>> for >>>>>> >> this. >>>>>> >> >> >> In >>>>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot >>>>>> >> >> >> substantiate >>>>>> this >>>>>> >> >> >> charge, >>>>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from >>>>>> this >>>>>> >> list, >>>>>> >> >> >> or >>>>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 3. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>>>> Displacement >>>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID >>>>>> JOB, >>>>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE >>>>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>>>>> >> support >>>>>> >> >> >> their >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, >>>>>> from >>>>>> >> >> >> reading >>>>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' >>>>>> (again >>>>>> >> >> >> because >>>>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have >>>>>> asked >>>>>> >> >> >> immediately >>>>>> >> >> >> before this still hold. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 4. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>>>> Displacement >>>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long >>>>>> >> >> >> mail, >>>>>> and >>>>>> >> >> >> also IT >>>>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write >>>>>> in the >>>>>> >> >> >> way he >>>>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 5. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal >>>>>> Displacement >>>>>> >> >> >> from >>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS >>>>>> >> >> >> MASTERS >>>>>> and >>>>>> >> we >>>>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts >>>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>>> me >>>>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani >>>>>> have a >>>>>> >> >> >> list of >>>>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is >>>>>> >> >> >> making >>>>>> here >>>>>> >> >> >> that I >>>>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not >>>>>> have >>>>>> >> this >>>>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he >>>>>> should >>>>>> >> be >>>>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 6. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally >>>>>> >> >> >> displaced >>>>>> >> >> >> persons' >>>>>> >> >> >> status >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know >>>>>> what I >>>>>> >> >> >> mean." >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not >>>>>> >> >> >> agree >>>>>> with >>>>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What >>>>>> does >>>>>> >> >> >> "Chinese >>>>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>>>>> >> Kuomintang >>>>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >>>>>> preference >>>>>> >> for >>>>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>>>>> >> >> >> referring to >>>>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >>>>>> >> specifically >>>>>> >> >> >> those >>>>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> >> >> government >>>>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the >>>>>> >> >> >> people >>>>>> he >>>>>> >> >> >> would >>>>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>>>>> >> critics >>>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>>>>> >> government >>>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact >>>>>> gone on >>>>>> >> >> >> record >>>>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >>>>>> >> government >>>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the >>>>>> Government >>>>>> >> of >>>>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >>>>>> >> baseless. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 7. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally >>>>>> >> >> >> displaced >>>>>> >> >> >> persons' >>>>>> >> >> >> status >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR >>>>>> MASTERS >>>>>> >> >> >> TONE..." >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's >>>>>> insinuation >>>>>> >> >> >> that >>>>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who >>>>>> act at >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> ----------------- >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> __________________________ >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day >>>>>> (from >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> date >>>>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable >>>>>> proof >>>>>> >> >> >> for >>>>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>>>>> >> >> >> scurrilous >>>>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one >>>>>> day. >>>>>> >> Or, >>>>>> >> >> >> if >>>>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, >>>>>> motivated and >>>>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> >> >> list >>>>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list >>>>>> >> >> >> with >>>>>> >> >> >> immediate >>>>>> >> >> >> effect. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been >>>>>> in >>>>>> >> >> >> favour of >>>>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year >>>>>> and a >>>>>> >> >> >> half) >>>>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies >>>>>> (in >>>>>> >> >> >> serious >>>>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with >>>>>> their >>>>>> >> >> >> rubbish >>>>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his >>>>>> expulsion on >>>>>> >> >> >> grounds >>>>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give >>>>>> >> >> >> the >>>>>> >> benefit >>>>>> >> >> >> of >>>>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' >>>>>> especially >>>>>> >> when >>>>>> >> >> >> I do >>>>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in >>>>>> anger >>>>>> >> >> >> need a >>>>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, >>>>>> Aditya >>>>>> >> Raj >>>>>> >> >> >> Kaul >>>>>> >> >> >> and their allies. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm >>>>>> that >>>>>> >> they >>>>>> >> >> >> can >>>>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>>>>> >> >> >> conjecture. >>>>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>>>>> >> arguments >>>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >>>>>> >> personal >>>>>> >> >> >> lives >>>>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, >>>>>> spread >>>>>> >> >> >> poison >>>>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. >>>>>> There >>>>>> >> have >>>>>> >> >> >> to >>>>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do >>>>>> >> >> >> by >>>>>> a >>>>>> >> >> >> foreign >>>>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >>>>>> am, or >>>>>> >> I >>>>>> >> >> >> am >>>>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >>>>>> >> suggests >>>>>> >> >> >> that I >>>>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >>>>>> >> statement >>>>>> >> >> >> about >>>>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only >>>>>> way to >>>>>> >> >> >> settle >>>>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the >>>>>> allegation >>>>>> >> >> >> proves >>>>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false >>>>>> witness. >>>>>> >> The >>>>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very >>>>>> serious >>>>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a >>>>>> 'foreign >>>>>> >> power' >>>>>> >> >> >> in >>>>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. >>>>>> Such >>>>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is >>>>>> libel >>>>>> >> and >>>>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection >>>>>> on the >>>>>> >> >> >> grounds >>>>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself >>>>>> and >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to >>>>>> >> >> >> defame >>>>>> a >>>>>> >> >> >> person or >>>>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>>>>> >> conceal. >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> regards >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> Shuddha >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> > _________________________________________ >>>>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>>>> >> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 23:15:37 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:15:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811100945g1325c82di2960372f5ca1f5be@mail.gmail.com> Why not ask for proof from Inder Salim, Shivam Vij, Shuddha and Aarti ? Or, do they satisfy your set rules of discrimination. My response in the past has been on various provocations by list members against Kashmiri Pandits or some other related issue. I will continue to object where ever I feel the need whenever, let me assure at least this much. If you want to continue with Sarai, without me, do that, but this sets a wrong example of a biased, discriminatory and castiest forum. If you agree with it, remove me. Truth won't change, it will continue to taste bitter to you all (few list members) who have initiated this tirade against me. I honestly don't care. My work, campaigns, awareness drive, struggle will continue anyway. Sarai can't kill me forever. They can just silence me from this small forum. There have been occasions when my group and myself have been accused of being 'terrorists', 'fundamentalists', 'extremists'.....there are hundred more such allegations...!! If you can't digest the opposite opinion, you easily abuse and malign a person. This is what has been happening. I don't care about Shuddha's one day time or any such thing. Who is Shuddha to suggest us what to do ? I've been clear from the very first day of my membership on this forum. My campaigns have been open, and not filled with any hidden agenda (like most communists aka communalists) have. The S.A.R. Geelani protest by Delhi University Students Union (DUSU) which sparked of this debate, was justified completely. Geelani has no business to speak on so called 'Hindu Terrorism' and incite communal passion in Delhi University Students. He is a language faculty member, and should stick to his job. Most people know why some 'vested interests' under his leadership are creating tension and raising finger on the Batla House Encounter. Martyred cop Inspector M.C. Sharma was the investigation officer in the case of Geelani. Rest all is clear. I need not answer any more doubts. Also, do visit - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Thanks On 11/10/08, Fatima फ़ातिमा wrote: > > Dear Sarai Moderator, > > While I respect and sympathize with the cause of Kashmiri pandits (as > much as I cry for the plight of Kashmiri Muslims), I would love to see > a healthier Sarai list with more respect, tolerance, and patience from > every one. I fully support freedom of expression, but I have no room > for any kind of personal attacks and insults. > > I support the removal of these people who were asked to provide a > proof of their accusations but have failed to do so. > > regrds > > > Fatima > > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Lal Salaam Aarti, > > > > You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write > > just *anything*. > > > > Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only > > voice of Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and > for > > a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside > > India would have their support structures. > > > > if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other > world. > > And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem. > > > > I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology. > > > > Pawan > > PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic > > group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would > > have been right to object. > > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 23:32:53 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:02:53 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net><6b79f1a70811092058i1e23614w953a25e55abea446@mail.gmail.com><73eb60090811092123l58753f54vdbfb014ac61ce091@mail.gmail.com><6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <71DB843D771243BAA60DEE41ACF30FB9@tara> Hi all. Can I request you guys to stop this never ending back and forth? If Shuddha has made a request to the moderator, it is not necessary that it will be met. Or may be it will be met. Let Monika decide. There is no point increasing traffick on the list. Also, let us not be naive to think that all will be hunky dory if these individuals are removed from the list. I am not sure if you can really stop people from rejoining using a different name. Your best bet is to apply filters to avoid the mails from individuals whose ideology you know; so you are not expecting anything new from them. I don't think an individual's mails to another individual are fair on a listserve. So if the mails are addressed to an individual, can we avoid sending them to the list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirdar" To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "sarai list" ; "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > Dear Pawan > If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and > again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits > on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > > No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - > but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns > about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims > are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that > your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply > trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy > about the plight of KPs. > > You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and > so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock > is ticking. > > Kirdar > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: >> Dear Kirdar, >> >> I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> from . >> >> 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of >> separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he >> considers himself one. >> >> 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on Geelani >> and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write that >> the credentials of certain people on the list are being investigated.What >> makes the two different ? >> >> 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain >> organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in >> all >> countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co >> -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and non >> except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> >> 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just >> everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this >> list >> as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate ..... >> Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> himself >> as a surrogate with active participation..... >> >> 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , >> Panun >> Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong >> with >> that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> However i >> have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the >> founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member as >> we >> believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. >> But >> i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> these. >> These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all odds. >> >> Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits >> world >> across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle >> the >> voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> >> And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese >> ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it >> effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> supporter of that ? >> >> I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is to >> scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> undergone >> Exodus and genocide. >> >> I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> myself >> run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and what >> not to word. >> >> If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge a >> moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and >> others be removed. >> >> I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so they >> do >> know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> >> I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. >> >> Regards >> >> Pawan Durani >> >> jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >>> >>> Dear Pawan >>> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >>> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign >>> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >>> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think >>> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >>> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >>> gone. >>> >>> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >>> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >>> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >>> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >>> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >>> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >>> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >>> >>> Kirdar >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani >>> wrote: >>> > Dear All, >>> > >>> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >>> > exposed. >>> > The >>> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >>> > >>> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >>> > Aditya , >>> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >>> > >>> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing >>> > but >>> > figment of his own imagination. >>> > >>> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >>> > Shivam >>> > and Arti have to be. >>> > >>> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear All, >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >>> >> list, >>> >> and >>> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >>> >> Unfortunately it >>> >> is not without precedent. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >>> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >>> >> detailed >>> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >>> >> habitually >>> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >>> >> desires to >>> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon >>> >> allies >>> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >>> >> university. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >>> >> list, >>> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >>> >> associated >>> >> with >>> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >>> >> insinuations >>> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >>> >> Kaul) >>> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >>> >> the >>> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >>> >> so >>> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >>> >> masters' >>> >> and >>> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >>> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >>> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position >>> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >>> >> account >>> >> for >>> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >>> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >>> >> 'writers' >>> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >>> >> agent, >>> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >>> >> when >>> >> the >>> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >>> >> propoganda >>> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >>> >> being >>> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >>> >> local >>> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >>> >> hand' >>> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >>> >> politicians >>> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >>> >> is >>> >> the >>> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >>> >> reality and >>> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >>> >> fails >>> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on >>> >> to >>> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >>> >> keeps, >>> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >>> >> Kashmir' >>> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >>> >> for >>> >> their >>> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >>> >> these >>> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >>> >> doing >>> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >>> >> beholden >>> >> to. >>> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to >>> >> the >>> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >>> >> own >>> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >>> >> agree >>> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >>> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >>> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has >>> >> been >>> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >>> >> of >>> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >>> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >>> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >>> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >>> >> either. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >>> >> we >>> >> are >>> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or 'terrorist' is >>> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to >>> >> take >>> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >>> >> accounts >>> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >>> >> think >>> >> that >>> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >>> >> at >>> >> such >>> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >>> >> hack >>> >> who >>> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings >>> >> from >>> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >>> >> paid by >>> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >>> >> payments >>> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >>> >> either. >>> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >>> >> the >>> >> Reader List either. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the >>> >> Sarai >>> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >>> >> professional >>> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially >>> >> as >>> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to >>> >> ignore >>> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >>> >> thrown >>> >> in >>> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >>> >> then >>> >> we >>> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >>> >> deserves >>> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >>> >> with >>> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >>> >> taken, >>> >> so >>> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >>> >> follow >>> >> each >>> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >>> >> capitalized >>> >> for >>> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -------------------------- >>> >> >>> >> 1. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> >>> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >>> >> COUNTRY , >>> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case >>> >> are >>> >> being followed more closely. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >>> >> links >>> >> >>> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >>> >> soon..." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >>> >> >>> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >>> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >>> >> by >>> >> a >>> >> foreign country' >>> >> >>> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >>> >> ascertained' >>> >> >>> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >>> >> how >>> >> he >>> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >>> >> stand >>> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >>> >> character >>> >> and >>> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >>> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >>> >> count >>> >> as >>> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 2. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> >>> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >>> >> JOB >>> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >>> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List >>> >> on any >>> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to >>> >> know >>> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >>> >> List >>> >> is a >>> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >>> >> substantiate >>> >> this, >>> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >>> >> do, or >>> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >>> >> this. >>> >> In >>> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >>> >> charge, >>> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >>> >> list, >>> >> or >>> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 3. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>> >> from >>> >> Kashmir >>> >> >>> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >>> >> UNLIKE >>> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >>> >> support >>> >> their >>> >> >>> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >>> >> reading >>> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >>> >> because >>> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >>> >> immediately >>> >> before this still hold. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 4. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>> >> from >>> >> Kashmir >>> >> >>> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >>> >> also IT >>> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >>> >> way he >>> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 5. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >>> >> from >>> >> Kashmir >>> >> >>> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >>> >> we >>> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >>> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >>> >> list of >>> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is making here >>> >> that I >>> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >>> >> this >>> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >>> >> be >>> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 6. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> >> persons' >>> >> status >>> >> >>> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Pawan Durani) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >>> >> mean." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >>> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >>> >> "Chinese >>> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >>> >> Kuomintang >>> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >>> >> for >>> >> Chinese cuisine? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >>> >> referring to >>> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically >>> >> those >>> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> >> government >>> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >>> >> would >>> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >>> >> critics >>> >> of >>> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >>> >> government >>> >> of >>> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >>> >> record >>> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the government >>> >> of >>> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >>> >> of >>> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 7. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >>> >> persons' >>> >> status >>> >> >>> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >>> >> TONE..." >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >>> >> that >>> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >>> >> the >>> >> behest of their masters. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ----------------- >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >>> >> >>> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> MY COMMENT: None >>> >> >>> >> __________________________ >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >>> >> the >>> >> date >>> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >>> >> for >>> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >>> >> scurrilous >>> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, >>> >> if >>> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >>> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request the >>> >> list >>> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >>> >> immediate >>> >> effect. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >>> >> favour of >>> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >>> >> half) >>> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >>> >> serious >>> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >>> >> rubbish >>> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >>> >> grounds >>> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >>> >> benefit >>> >> of >>> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >>> >> when >>> >> I do >>> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >>> >> need a >>> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >>> >> Raj >>> >> Kaul >>> >> and their allies. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >>> >> they >>> >> can >>> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >>> >> conjecture. >>> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >>> >> arguments >>> >> and >>> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal >>> >> lives >>> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >>> >> poison >>> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >>> >> have >>> >> to >>> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >>> >> foreign >>> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >>> >> I >>> >> am >>> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests >>> >> that I >>> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement >>> >> about >>> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >>> >> settle >>> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >>> >> proves >>> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >>> >> The >>> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >>> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >>> >> power' >>> >> in >>> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >>> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >>> >> and >>> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >>> >> grounds >>> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >>> >> the >>> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >>> >> person or >>> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >>> >> conceal. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> regards >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Shuddha >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 23:39:12 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:39:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] art in public space: images from Delhi Marathon Message-ID: <47e122a70811101009v46e5e504m4bd64d034fa5904a@mail.gmail.com> dear all enclosed are images from the performance/art in public space ABOLISH DEATH PENALTY IN INDIA. initially executed at India Social Forum, and then this year, first at India Gate in colloboration with Amnesty International India, and now with Delhi Marathon on 9th of Nov please press to click http://indersalim.livejournal.com with love is From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Nov 10 23:50:01 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:50:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6353c690811100945g1325c82di2960372f5ca1f5be@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811100945g1325c82di2960372f5ca1f5be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, On 10-Nov-08, at 11:15 PM, you wrote: > Why not ask for proof from Inder Salim, Shivam Vij, Shuddha and > Aarti ? I would like to take this opportunity to ask "Proof, for what, Aditya?" I do not recall that any one has ever accused Aditya or Pawan on this list with receiving money for what they write. Many list members have discussed and criticized their opinions, beliefs and actions on the basis of what they themselves have made visible on this list. No one has ever accused them of doing or believing things that they have not admitted to, not allied themselves with and not implicated themselves in openly and in a transparent manner. I believe that they write as they do because they believe in their cause. I may disagree with them, but I have never said that they are mercenaries - people who's words or actions are available for hire. The list is still waiting for Aditya and Pawan to reply to my very specific questions. Do they have any proof that any of the people they have both addressed in a string of their previous mails that I had quoted in my last post on the subject have ever received money from 'foreign agencies' or 'terrorists' for their writing? I would like to see that proof. Shuddha From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 10 23:57:13 2008 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:27:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <200811102225.15696.ravikant@sarai.net> Message-ID: <62909.24093.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I too am mostly a lurker, only rarely adding my two-bit. I whole-heartedly second the idea of ousting some unidimensional boring ignorant rude parochial misogynist people from the list. As Vivek had suggested earlier, I had directed some of the mailers directly to my "Trash" folder, but there's a limit to the hijacking of the list and the silencing of any serious discussion. The American election has at least animated the list with things other than Kashmir. But that's for now. Let's talk about "The White Tiger" (a seriously badly written novel - we should ask why some of us find it so), the films "A Wednesday" (and why it made us profoundly uneasy) and "The Dark Knight" (and its fantastic shot of the Benjaminian angel of destuction), Mayawati and mainstream Dalit politics in India, the case against article 377, the "global" art market (is global always already the market, thus making the term tautological?)  and many other such equally riveting things. Out damn spot (of bother)! Long live the list!   Cheers Sabitha. --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Ravikant wrote: From: Ravikant Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 10:25 PM Dear Moderator, I have been an avid reader yet mostly a lurker on this list. I have read and seen all the drama and I am glad to notice that more and more people are getting impatient with certain people who can do no better than post comments like the one posted below. I think the time has come to say good bye to some of our friends. Their track record on the list is anything but healthy for the robust growth of this list. Remember this list had a life before they came here, and it has a future. Like Shuddha, I am very tolerant of people who do not agree with me, and I do believe that you can not remain an island for far too long - the filth around will catch up with you howsoever hard you may try to escape it. But unlike him, I do not entertain any wishful thinking about them. So If these people can see niether history nor reason, and if they can't see the multildimensionality of this list, they have no business being here. I join the people who think they should be given a farewell. I don't mind a less colourful life - I will at least have more time to read better stuff - of which there has never been a dearth on this list. All they can do is spit on people they do not agree with!! That's the limit of their civility. And that's the limit to which I can go hosting them. ravikant सोमवार 10 नवम्बर 2008 21:36 को, Aditya Raj Kaul ने लिखा था: > like INDER SALIM. > > On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: > > in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this 'Taslima > > Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements > > > > love > > is > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > Dear Shudda Sengupta > > > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. > > > M Ray > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > To: MRSG > > > Cc: sarai list > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > Dear M.Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know that > > > > Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she will > > one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Invitation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from > > > Kolkata > > > > > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > > > > > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, > > > Shrijato, > > > > Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit > > Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab Kirtania, > > Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. > > Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak > > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, > > > KOLKATA, > > > > 6 PM > > > > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities of > > > > Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded out of > > > > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of > > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always > > believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular city > > of Kolkata. We also believed that. > > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began long > > > back. > > > > She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to > > inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these fundamentalists, > > Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And then > > finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of > > Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. The > > expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her > > earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu told > > that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader Subrata > > Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom > > struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called > > cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame earlier. > > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived through a > > > > year of shame. > > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us there > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:03:42 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:03:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <62909.24093.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <200811102225.15696.ravikant@sarai.net> <62909.24093.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811101033h58538a76u8c6ee67218e187c5@mail.gmail.com> Has anybody stopped you from commenting or asking for opinion on 'A Wednesday' ? or for that matter from writing and posting a review on 'The White Tiger'. Lame excuses don't substantiate any point. And, this indeed is pointless of you to raise. To ban us for this reason is stupidity. And, if there is a major second opinion on 'Kashmir' why not debate, discuss and write on it, rather than simply baning what you can't take as your ideology doesn't approve of it. This is simply Dumbocracy rule here in SARAI. Shuddha being the originator. His mails are filled with trash, he has bad 'history' and 'Civics'. Be honest, not autocratic. Regards On 11/10/08, sabitha t p wrote: > > I too am mostly a lurker, only rarely adding my two-bit. I whole-heartedly > second the idea of ousting some unidimensional boring ignorant rude > parochial misogynist people from the list. As Vivek had suggested earlier, I > had directed some of the mailers directly to my "Trash" folder, but there's > a limit to the hijacking of the list and the silencing of any serious > discussion. The American election has at least animated the list with things > other than Kashmir. But that's for now. > Let's talk about "The White Tiger" (a seriously badly written novel - we > should ask why some of us find it so), the films "A Wednesday" (and why it > made us profoundly uneasy) and "The Dark Knight" (and its fantastic shot of > the Benjaminian angel of destuction), Mayawati and mainstream Dalit politics > in India, the case against article 377, the "global" art market (is global > always already the market, thus making the term tautological?) and many > other such equally riveting things. Out damn spot (of bother)! Long live the > list! > > Cheers > Sabitha. > > --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Ravikant wrote: > > From: Ravikant > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 10:25 PM > > > Dear Moderator, > > I have been an avid reader yet mostly a lurker on this list. I have read > and > seen all the drama and I am glad to notice that more and more people are > getting impatient with certain people who can do no better than post > comments > like the one posted below. I think the time has come to say good bye to > some > of our friends. Their track record on the list is anything but healthy for > the robust growth of this list. Remember this list had a life before they > came here, and it has a future. Like Shuddha, I am very tolerant of people > who do not agree with me, and I do believe that you can not remain an > island > for far too long - the filth around will catch up with you howsoever hard > you > may try to escape it. But unlike him, I do not entertain any wishful > thinking > about them. So If these people can see niether history nor reason, and if > they can't see the multildimensionality of this list, they have no business > > being here. I join the people who think they should be given a farewell. I > don't mind a less colourful life - I will at least have more time to read > better stuff - of which there has never been a dearth on this list. > > All they can do is spit on people they do not agree with!! That's the limit > of > their civility. And that's the limit to which I can go hosting them. > > ravikant > > > सोमवार 10 नवम्बर 2008 21:36 को, Aditya Raj Kaul > ने लिखा था: > > like INDER SALIM. > > > > On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: > > > in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this > 'Taslima > > > Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements > > > > > > love > > > is > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > Dear Shudda Sengupta > > > > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. > > > > M Ray > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > To: MRSG > > > > Cc: sarai list > > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M.Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know > that > > > > > > Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she > will > > > one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invitation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from > > > > Kolkata > > > > > > > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > > > > > > > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, > > > > Shrijato, > > > > > > Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit > > > Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab > Kirtania, > > > Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. > > > Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak > > > > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, > > > > KOLKATA, > > > > > > 6 PM > > > > > > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities > of > > > > > > Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded > out of > > > > > > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of > > > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always > > > believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular > city > > > of Kolkata. We also believed that. > > > > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began > long > > > > back. > > > > > > She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to > > > inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these > fundamentalists, > > > Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And > then > > > finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of > > > Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. > The > > > expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her > > > earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu > told > > > that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader > Subrata > > > Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom > > > struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called > > > cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame > earlier. > > > > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived > through a > > > > > > year of shame. > > > > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us > there > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:23:17 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:23:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811100945g1325c82di2960372f5ca1f5be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811101053v730192c1j27f1d476a9476080@mail.gmail.com> See, Aditya, it is not about Kashmir, but about simple question which Shuddha asked, and there is nothing wrong to withdraw your allegation that... Gowhar did it gracefully by withdrawing his statment on "2-5 killings in kashmir since Amarnath row", and replaced it with something different.......and why cant you learn from this example. why cant we be humble to each other, why cant we speak with love in our hearts, even if we differ is On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > On 10-Nov-08, at 11:15 PM, you wrote: > >> Why not ask for proof from Inder Salim, Shivam Vij, Shuddha and >> Aarti ? > > I would like to take this opportunity to ask "Proof, for what, Aditya?" > > I do not recall that any one has ever accused Aditya or Pawan on this > list with receiving money for what they write. Many list members have > discussed and criticized their opinions, beliefs and actions on the > basis of what they themselves have made visible on this list. No one > has ever accused them of doing or believing things that they have not > admitted to, not allied themselves with and not implicated themselves > in openly and in a transparent manner. > > I believe that they write as they do because they believe in their > cause. I may disagree with them, but I have never said that they are > mercenaries - people who's words or actions are available for hire. > > The list is still waiting for Aditya and Pawan to reply to my very > specific questions. Do they have any proof that any of the people > they have both addressed in a string of their previous mails that I > had quoted in my last post on the subject have ever received money > from 'foreign agencies' or 'terrorists' for their writing? > > I would like to see that proof. > > Shuddha > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:25:50 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:25:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <6353c690811101033h58538a76u8c6ee67218e187c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <200811102225.15696.ravikant@sarai.net> <62909.24093.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <6353c690811101033h58538a76u8c6ee67218e187c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811101055l39e9797cj8064666164128cec@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, By saying again and again that this is about your politics, that this is because we cannot tolerate your "alternative opinion", that somehow finally we have reached the end of our communist tether and can no longer bear the searing light of uncomfortable truth you shed, and so we are asking that you be evicted, is incorrect. All of the above is true, but that is not why you are being called out. If that were the case we would have asked that you be evicted a year and a half ago. You are being called out because you have falsely alleged that a list member receives *payment* for his writing. Unless substantiated this is a defamatory and libellous charge. If anyone has made similar accusations against you, please cite them and place them before the list community and the moderator. But you can only speak in vague generalities because none of us have done so. What should I proviode proof of? That I deeply detest your hate-filled venomous politics? Of that there is ample proof I hope. But that I have made unsubstantiated defamtory charges against you, of that there is no proof, because I have not done so. You may hold whatever opinion you do about anyone's politics, knowledge of history, Kashmir, life, the universe and everything. And you have the right to express that opinion. Indeed that right has been upheld and protected beyond reasonable limit. You have sworn at, abused and spat on list members. You have called them terrorist sympathisers and worse (incidentally I have never called you a terrorist which you claim. But you have me on several occasions). And you have bored us to tears and dulled our senses into a weary stupor with your never-ending rant. And despite the excruciating agony of it, we have let you do so because we have an almost absurdist libertarian position when it comes to freedom of expression. But you do not have the right to make a false accusation against someone's credibility. If you do, then you have prove it. Surely you would wish that anyone who spreads lies about a list member is held to account? So prove it then, and provide evidence of my having defamed you, and place it here for all to see. Don't try and make this a question of democracy. That is an intellectually dishonest move even for you. regards A On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Has anybody stopped you from commenting or asking for opinion on 'A > Wednesday' ? or for that matter from writing and posting a review on 'The > White Tiger'. > > Lame excuses don't substantiate any point. And, this indeed is pointless of > you to raise. > > To ban us for this reason is stupidity. And, if there is a major second > opinion on 'Kashmir' why not debate, discuss and write on it, rather than > simply baning what you can't take as your ideology doesn't approve of it. > > This is simply Dumbocracy rule here in SARAI. Shuddha being the originator. > His mails are filled with trash, he has bad 'history' and 'Civics'. > > Be honest, not autocratic. > > Regards > > On 11/10/08, sabitha t p wrote: > > > > I too am mostly a lurker, only rarely adding my two-bit. I > whole-heartedly > > second the idea of ousting some unidimensional boring ignorant rude > > parochial misogynist people from the list. As Vivek had suggested > earlier, I > > had directed some of the mailers directly to my "Trash" folder, but > there's > > a limit to the hijacking of the list and the silencing of any serious > > discussion. The American election has at least animated the list with > things > > other than Kashmir. But that's for now. > > Let's talk about "The White Tiger" (a seriously badly written novel - we > > should ask why some of us find it so), the films "A Wednesday" (and why > it > > made us profoundly uneasy) and "The Dark Knight" (and its fantastic shot > of > > the Benjaminian angel of destuction), Mayawati and mainstream Dalit > politics > > in India, the case against article 377, the "global" art market (is > global > > always already the market, thus making the term tautological?) and many > > other such equally riveting things. Out damn spot (of bother)! Long live > the > > list! > > > > Cheers > > Sabitha. > > > > --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Ravikant wrote: > > > > From: Ravikant > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 10:25 PM > > > > > > Dear Moderator, > > > > I have been an avid reader yet mostly a lurker on this list. I have read > > and > > seen all the drama and I am glad to notice that more and more people are > > getting impatient with certain people who can do no better than post > > comments > > like the one posted below. I think the time has come to say good bye to > > some > > of our friends. Their track record on the list is anything but healthy > for > > the robust growth of this list. Remember this list had a life before they > > came here, and it has a future. Like Shuddha, I am very tolerant of > people > > who do not agree with me, and I do believe that you can not remain an > > island > > for far too long - the filth around will catch up with you howsoever hard > > you > > may try to escape it. But unlike him, I do not entertain any wishful > > thinking > > about them. So If these people can see niether history nor reason, and if > > they can't see the multildimensionality of this list, they have no > business > > > > being here. I join the people who think they should be given a farewell. > I > > don't mind a less colourful life - I will at least have more time to read > > better stuff - of which there has never been a dearth on this list. > > > > All they can do is spit on people they do not agree with!! That's the > limit > > of > > their civility. And that's the limit to which I can go hosting them. > > > > ravikant > > > > > > सोमवार 10 नवम्बर 2008 21:36 को, Aditya Raj Kaul > > ने लिखा था: > > > like INDER SALIM. > > > > > > On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this > > 'Taslima > > > > Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements > > > > > > > > love > > > > is > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > > Dear Shudda Sengupta > > > > > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. > > > > > M Ray > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > To: MRSG > > > > > Cc: sarai list > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M.Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know > > that > > > > > > > > Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she > > will > > > > one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invitation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from > > > > > Kolkata > > > > > > > > > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by > > > > > > > > > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, > > > > > Shrijato, > > > > > > > > Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit > > > > Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab > > Kirtania, > > > > Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. > > > > Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak > > > > > > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, > > > > > KOLKATA, > > > > > > > > 6 PM > > > > > > > > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities > > of > > > > > > > > Bangladesh), Kolkata > > > > > > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded > > out of > > > > > > > > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of > > > > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always > > > > believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular > > city > > > > of Kolkata. We also believed that. > > > > > > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began > > long > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed to > > > > inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these > > fundamentalists, > > > > Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And > > then > > > > finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of > > > > Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. > > The > > > > expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in her > > > > earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu > > told > > > > that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader > > Subrata > > > > Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom > > > > struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called > > > > cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame > > earlier. > > > > > > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived > > through a > > > > > > > > year of shame. > > > > > > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us > > there > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:27:18 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:27:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811101053v730192c1j27f1d476a9476080@mail.gmail.com> References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690811100945g1325c82di2960372f5ca1f5be@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70811101053v730192c1j27f1d476a9476080@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811101057v7f4a0ca4he349b2fd28f5a0bb@mail.gmail.com> I'm all for love, compassion, joy and happiness....all, Inder. Kabhi aap aazma ke toh dekhiye... Thanks for this e-mail, Aditya On 11/11/08, inder salim wrote: > > See, Aditya, it is not about Kashmir, but about simple question which > Shuddha asked, > > and there is nothing wrong to withdraw your allegation that... > > Gowhar did it gracefully by withdrawing his statment on "2-5 killings > in kashmir since Amarnath row", and replaced it with something > different.......and why cant you learn from this example. why cant we > be humble to each other, > > why cant we speak with love in our hearts, even if we differ > > is > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 11:15 PM, you wrote: > > > >> Why not ask for proof from Inder Salim, Shivam Vij, Shuddha and > >> Aarti ? > > > > I would like to take this opportunity to ask "Proof, for what, Aditya?" > > > > I do not recall that any one has ever accused Aditya or Pawan on this > > list with receiving money for what they write. Many list members have > > discussed and criticized their opinions, beliefs and actions on the > > basis of what they themselves have made visible on this list. No one > > has ever accused them of doing or believing things that they have not > > admitted to, not allied themselves with and not implicated themselves > > in openly and in a transparent manner. > > > > I believe that they write as they do because they believe in their > > cause. I may disagree with them, but I have never said that they are > > mercenaries - people who's words or actions are available for hire. > > > > The list is still waiting for Aditya and Pawan to reply to my very > > specific questions. Do they have any proof that any of the people > > they have both addressed in a string of their previous mails that I > > had quoted in my last post on the subject have ever received money > > from 'foreign agencies' or 'terrorists' for their writing? > > > > I would like to see that proof. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:34:29 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:34:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811101055l39e9797cj8064666164128cec@mail.gmail.com> References: <200811102225.15696.ravikant@sarai.net> <62909.24093.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <6353c690811101033h58538a76u8c6ee67218e187c5@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811101055l39e9797cj8064666164128cec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811101104j143578cetd899401a05f0b424@mail.gmail.com> Aarti, You are just too good at 'innovatively wasting time on 'SARAI'. Grow up young lady. I have said whatever I had to. I don't need 'Aarti Devi's' recognition to my comments in anyway. Don't shift focus. This ofcourse is about DEMOCRACY, which you guys have been turning into Dumbocracy for your own self-goals. There have been numereous attacks on me on this list, which includes name calling, and even indirect abuses. There have been very serious allegations. Prove them..and then talk of banning me. People from ideology who act is tupical street behaviour, don't make you object to their unfortunate acts of abuses and allegations. But, because a present a different take on things...I'm always a problem. Make your intentions clear girl. Study hard... Go sleep....Its late night now... Thanks for your long and boring e-mail as always.... On 11/11/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Aditya, > > By saying again and again that this is about your politics, that this is > because we cannot tolerate your "alternative opinion", that somehow finally > we have reached the end of our communist tether and can no longer bear the > searing light of uncomfortable truth you shed, and so we are asking that you > be evicted, is incorrect. All of the above is true, but that is not why you > are being called out. If that were the case we would have asked that you be > evicted a year and a half ago. > > You are being called out because you have falsely alleged that a list > member receives *payment* for his writing. Unless substantiated this is a > defamatory and libellous charge. If anyone has made similar accusations > against you, please cite them and place them before the list community and > the moderator. But you can only speak in vague generalities because none of > us have done so. > > What should I proviode proof of? That I deeply detest your hate-filled > venomous politics? Of that there is ample proof I hope. But that I have made > unsubstantiated defamtory charges against you, of that there is no proof, > because I have not done so. > > You may hold whatever opinion you do about anyone's politics, knowledge of > history, Kashmir, life, the universe and everything. And you have the right > to express that opinion. Indeed that right has been upheld and protected > beyond reasonable limit. You have sworn at, abused and spat on list members. > You have called them terrorist sympathisers and worse (incidentally I have > never called you a terrorist which you claim. But you have me on several > occasions). And you have bored us to tears and dulled our senses into a > weary stupor with your never-ending rant. And despite the excruciating agony > of it, we have let you do so because we have an almost absurdist libertarian > position when it comes to freedom of expression. > > But you do not have the right to make a false accusation against someone's > credibility. If you do, then you have prove it. Surely you would wish that > anyone who spreads lies about a list member is held to account? So prove it > then, and provide evidence of my having defamed you, and place it here for > all to see. > > Don't try and make this a question of democracy. That is an intellectually > dishonest move even for you. > > regards > A > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > >> Has anybody stopped you from commenting or asking for opinion on 'A >> Wednesday' ? or for that matter from writing and posting a review on 'The >> White Tiger'. >> >> Lame excuses don't substantiate any point. And, this indeed is pointless >> of >> you to raise. >> >> To ban us for this reason is stupidity. And, if there is a major second >> opinion on 'Kashmir' why not debate, discuss and write on it, rather than >> simply baning what you can't take as your ideology doesn't approve of it. >> >> This is simply Dumbocracy rule here in SARAI. Shuddha being the >> originator. >> His mails are filled with trash, he has bad 'history' and 'Civics'. >> >> Be honest, not autocratic. >> >> Regards >> >> On 11/10/08, sabitha t p wrote: >> > >> > I too am mostly a lurker, only rarely adding my two-bit. I >> whole-heartedly >> > second the idea of ousting some unidimensional boring ignorant rude >> > parochial misogynist people from the list. As Vivek had suggested >> earlier, I >> > had directed some of the mailers directly to my "Trash" folder, but >> there's >> > a limit to the hijacking of the list and the silencing of any serious >> > discussion. The American election has at least animated the list with >> things >> > other than Kashmir. But that's for now. >> > Let's talk about "The White Tiger" (a seriously badly written novel - we >> > should ask why some of us find it so), the films "A Wednesday" (and why >> it >> > made us profoundly uneasy) and "The Dark Knight" (and its fantastic shot >> of >> > the Benjaminian angel of destuction), Mayawati and mainstream Dalit >> politics >> > in India, the case against article 377, the "global" art market (is >> global >> > always already the market, thus making the term tautological?) and many >> > other such equally riveting things. Out damn spot (of bother)! Long live >> the >> > list! >> > >> > Cheers >> > Sabitha. >> > >> > --- On Mon, 10/11/08, Ravikant wrote: >> > >> > From: Ravikant >> > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME >> > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 10:25 PM >> > >> > >> > Dear Moderator, >> > >> > I have been an avid reader yet mostly a lurker on this list. I have read >> > and >> > seen all the drama and I am glad to notice that more and more people are >> > getting impatient with certain people who can do no better than post >> > comments >> > like the one posted below. I think the time has come to say good bye to >> > some >> > of our friends. Their track record on the list is anything but healthy >> for >> > the robust growth of this list. Remember this list had a life before >> they >> > came here, and it has a future. Like Shuddha, I am very tolerant of >> people >> > who do not agree with me, and I do believe that you can not remain an >> > island >> > for far too long - the filth around will catch up with you howsoever >> hard >> > you >> > may try to escape it. But unlike him, I do not entertain any wishful >> > thinking >> > about them. So If these people can see niether history nor reason, and >> if >> > they can't see the multildimensionality of this list, they have no >> business >> > >> > being here. I join the people who think they should be given a farewell. >> I >> > don't mind a less colourful life - I will at least have more time to >> read >> > better stuff - of which there has never been a dearth on this list. >> > >> > All they can do is spit on people they do not agree with!! That's the >> limit >> > of >> > their civility. And that's the limit to which I can go hosting them. >> > >> > ravikant >> > >> > >> > सोमवार 10 नवम्बर 2008 21:36 को, Aditya Raj Kaul >> > ने लिखा था: >> > > like INDER SALIM. >> > > >> > > On 11/10/08, inder salim wrote: >> > > > in the least, i hope , the stupid Govt would ensure this >> > 'Taslima >> > > > Event' not disrupted by extra stupid elements >> > > > >> > > > love >> > > > is >> > > > >> > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:45 PM, MRSG wrote: >> > > > > Dear Shudda Sengupta >> > > > > Thanks. Kindly correct the date - It is on 19 Novemeber 2008. >> > > > > M Ray >> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > > > > To: MRSG >> > > > > Cc: sarai list >> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:31 PM >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Dear M.Ray, >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Thank you very much for posting this. It is very good to know >> > that >> > > > >> > > > Kolkata stands by the exiled writer Taslima Nasrin. I hope that she >> > will >> > > > one day be able to return to live there in liberty and dignity. >> > > > >> > > > > regards >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Shuddha >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On 10-Nov-08, at 7:15 PM, MRSG wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Invitation >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > A YEAR OF SHAME >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On the eve of one year of throwing out of Taslima Nasrin from >> > > > > Kolkata >> > > > > >> > > > > An anthology of Poems for Taslima to be released by >> > > > > >> > > > > Eminent educationist and thinker Amlan Dutta, >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > An Evening Of Protest With Poems of >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Tarun Sanyal, Sarat Mukhopadhy, Joy Goswami, Sabyasachi Deb, >> > > > > Shrijato, >> > > > >> > > > Kalikrishna Guha, Farukh Ahmed, Lalmia Molla, Naser Hussain, Ranjit >> > > > Gupta, Namita Chowdhury, Mousumi Bilkis, Taimur Khan, Pallab >> > Kirtania, >> > > > Partho Bandyopadhyay, Bipul Chakraborty, Sumitava Ghosal and others. >> > > > Giyasuddin and Saswati Ghosh will speak >> > > > >> > > > > ON 19 DECEMBER, 2008. ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, CONFERENCE HALL, >> > > > > KOLKATA, >> > > > >> > > > 6 PM >> > > > >> > > > > Organised by CAAMB (Campaign Against Atrocities on Minorities >> > of >> > > > >> > > > Bangladesh), Kolkata >> > > > >> > > > > A year back, on 22 December 2007, Taslima Nasrin was hounded >> > out of >> > > > >> > > > Kolkata by Islamic fundamentalists. She was earlier hounded out of >> > > > Bangladesh, roamed like a refugee throughout the world, but always >> > > > believed that she at least had a safe house in the left and secular >> > city >> > > > of Kolkata. We also believed that. >> > > > >> > > > > The process of hounding out Taslima from West Bengal began >> > long >> > > > > back. >> > > > >> > > > She was barred to read her poems in Medinipur, she was not allowed >> to >> > > > inaugurate The Book Fair in Siliguri. To support these >> > fundamentalists, >> > > > Left Front government banned her book. Our protest was too mild. And >> > then >> > > > finally on 22 December 2007, Left front government threw her out of >> > > > Kolkata after a day-long violence by a group of Muslims in Kolkata. >> > The >> > > > expulsion was supported by Trinamul leader Mamata Bandopadhyay in >> her >> > > > earlier lectures to the madrasa students, CPI-M supremo Biman Basu >> > told >> > > > that Taslima should have left herself earlier, Congress leader >> > Subrata >> > > > Mukherjee said that the violence on 21 December was like the freedom >> > > > struggle. Kolkata had to realise who really controls the so-called >> > > > cultural capital of India. Kolkatans never faced such a shame >> > earlier. >> > > > >> > > > > Taslima still cannot come back to Kolkata. We have lived >> > through a >> > > > >> > > > year of shame. >> > > > >> > > > > We shall not forget. We shall not remain silent. Join us >> > there >> > > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > with >> > > > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > >> > > > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > > > > >> > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > > > > >> > > > > Raqs Media Collective >> > > > > >> > > > > shuddha at sarai.net >> > > > > >> > > > > www.sarai.net >> > > > > >> > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > with >> > > > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > >> > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to >> > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Nov 11 01:02:23 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:02:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A YEAR OF SHAME In-Reply-To: <6353c690811101058g3b3da0b6q6a3d8f37cfe798c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200811102225.15696.ravikant@sarai.net> <62909.24093.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <6353c690811101033h58538a76u8c6ee67218e187c5@mail.gmail.com> <6AA86688-3480-4CCF-8F69-63AD8A818966@sarai.net> <6353c690811101058g3b3da0b6q6a3d8f37cfe798c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aditya, There are some kinds of statements that need proof, and others that do not. I will try and explain why in this mail. But any simple textbook of logic will do the job better than me. Nevertheless, let me try. Statements about beliefs (not beliefs themselves) are one kind of statement. Statements about facts (which may or may not be beliefs) are another kind of statement. The first do not require proofs, the second do. I do not recall calling you a terrorist. That I have been called a terrorist is another matter. I also have avoided calling individuals on the list 'fundamentalist' or 'extremist'. In any case, epithets like 'fundamentalist' or 'extremist' are acts of interpretation. They are opinions. One can argue whether or not an individual or a political tendency shows signs of being 'fundamentalist' or 'extremist', ie whether or not the opinion has any resonance with facts, because this is a judgement about the degree of moderation in beliefs and actions that a particular person does or does not display. And close obsrevation of the persons behavious is all that we need to settle any case of dispute. I have not objected to being called a terrorist. Not because I am one. I abhor and detest terrorism. But because a statement about 'belief' can neither be proved, nor disproved. There can be proof for whether or not a person has or has not committed an act of terror, because that is a fact. But 'terrorism', as in a belief in the efficacy of terror, unless there are verifiable statements that say that one is a terrorist, can neither be proven, nor disproven. For the same reason that you cannot prove whether or not a person believes in god, if they are silent about their beliefs. Their belief can be known only to them. Similarly if a person is a silent believer in terrorism, this can neither be proved, nor disproved. That is why I avoid arguments that rely on labelling people in terms of what they may or may not believe in. I have talked at times of fundamentalist or extremist politics and I have always condemned fundamentalists and extremists of every variety. If anything I have have called you a nationalist. I am against every kind of nationalism. But surely, even you call yourself a nationalist. Nationalism, in this case is not an allegation, a conjecture that you are indeed a nationalist, rather it is a statement in tacit agreement with your own description of yourself. It is simply a description of a particular political position. Neither I nor you need to prove that if we are both in agreement about the fact that you are indeed a nationalist. By the way, I have never mentioned anything about you blackening anyone's face. That hasn't stopped you from making allegations about people being paid agents. The question of being or not being a 'paid agent' is not a matter of interpretation, or degree. One cannot have a 'tendency' towards being paid, as if bribery were on some sliding scale or continuous spectrum of facticity. One is either paid, or not paid. There is no ambiguity or interpretative leeway in this matter. That is why this is the kind of statement that needs proof. I am still waiting for that proof. Shuddha On 11-Nov-08, at 12:28 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Shuddha, > > I need not comment on any of your questions. > > There have been serious remarks to malign me and others on this > forum. Prove them first and then come to me for answers. > > 'Terrorist', 'Fundamentalist, 'Extremist' ...the list just goes own... > > There have been various other allegations and name calling against > me and a few others on this forum. > > More importantly, I've been blamed of 'blackning' some terrorist's > face... Prove it.... Mr. SenGupta.. > > As elders you have a responsibility to make me understand, as to > why...were such remrks so casually passed on me.... Just because > you were short of arguments....If yes, then its Unfortunate..! > > > > On 11/11/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Aditya, > > The argument for banning you and Pawan from this list has nothing > to do with your opinions. There are others who share your opinions > on this list whom no one has asked for a ban on. I am sure that if > they present their point of view in a civilized fashion, without > making baseless allegations, many people on the list will continue > to engage with them - as you say 'debate, discuss and write on > it' . People will agree or disagree with them. Some may be > ambivalent, others indifferent. That is as it should be in any > discussion where people engage freely, fairly, openly and with > respect for differences. > > The demand for a ban arises because you and Pawan made specific > charges of money changing hands on this list. If you can prove > those charges, no one will ask for you to be banned. Everyone on > the list is aware by now of the fact that the issue of whether or > not you need to be banned has nothing whatsoever to do with your > opinions on Kashmir. > > Shuddha > > On 11-Nov-08, at 12:03 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > To ban us for this reason is stupidity. And, if there is a major > second > opinion on 'Kashmir' why not debate, discuss and write on it, > rather than > simply baning what you can't take as your ideology doesn't approve > of it. > > > > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From samhoodx at aol.com Tue Nov 11 01:12:14 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (Samuel X. Hood) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:42:14 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? Message-ID: <8CB118390E553BE-5E0-164B@WEBMAIL-MY09.sysops.aol.com> Hi. I have nothing to do with IT other than using the internet, so please forgive my ignorance. I have used a dial-up modem in the past and know what a browser is - using one right now. But have not heard of a "dial-up browser". Could Pawan or someone else please tell me what a dial-up browser is? Also, what is meant by "text was in DOS mode"? Sam -----Original Message----- From: Pawan Durani Dear Yousuf , I do believe that my knowledge about Internet is probably better than yours. I am into IT services only and am in www world since I was using a 14.4 kbps dial up browser and the text was in dos mode. You may have heard of this , and I am sure never experienced it. Coming back to accusations , I am as guilty " if it assumed by some" as someone else is.As i have said , i do not challenge a moderator and neither do i like someone challenging me in the group i run. That group is almost 10 years old. If someone challenges my cause by overtly or covertly supporting or sympathising with my tormentors , i wont sit back. I dont know what CSDS or whatever is ! It doesnt matter to me. You may continue to have vote for my expulsion, and that makes me remember castro , who once said "I would not vote for the mayor. It's not just because he didn't invite me to dinner, but because on my way into town from the airport there were such enormous potholes." Best regards pawan jai Andhra , Jai Hind On 11/10/08, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Pawan > I didn't want to get into this. But here is a small point. Please do not > forget that we are on the Internet, where, even though most things come free > - but as they say in America: there is no such thing as a free lunch. So, > while Sarai list maybe a free space for you to speak out loud, someone, > somewhere is paying for the server space and the bandwidth (I don't mean > paying in that "getting paid" sense. But if you insist on the "getting paid" > angle, then even you are using that "foreign kick-back" by posting your > messages on this paid server). > > Nothing is free. Even when we sign up on Yahoo, Google or any other free > service, they get a contract signed from us (which I'm sure none of us read > fully) saying that they have the right to remove you from their free service > as and when they feel like. Now, I don't want to compare the institution of > Sarai/CSDS with that sort of corporatism, but I am sure every institution > has the right to maintain a certain decorum in a public debate. When you > subscribed to the reader-list, they must have sent you a message about what > this list is all about, and that you need to follow a certain decorum. By > accepting their subscription, you have agreed to abide by the decorum. If > you don't, then it is their right to remove. > > Even if we consider the reader-list as a truly public forum with no > institutional belonging, then, the opinion of the rest of the list-members > should suffice to remove you or anyone who crosses limits of decency. We can > have a referendum/poll here, and let the list members vote for or against > you. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > From: Pawan Durani > > Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? > > To: "Sarai" , "we wi" , > "rajendra bhat" > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:38 PM > > Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from > > the list ? > > > > Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > > > > Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in > > the forum but pull > > the strings ? > > > > Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy > > fought ? > > > > Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not > > want us to expose > > yasin malik ? > > > > Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > > > > Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets > > defeated everytime > > they make a terrorist a hero ? > > > > Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > > > > Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > > > > is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > > > > Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > > > > I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > > > > In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a > > well plotted > > Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are > > on my side . > > > > The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this > > group is still > > blind ! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 04:45:57 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra! In-Reply-To: <854602.68525.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <384529.1225.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> (this is just for record since Gowhar having chosen to ignore me will not get to read this)   Dear Gowhar   Your concession (even if were a graceful one) gives me no joy. I would have been happy if I had managed to nudge you out of the gridlock of your mind towards a more expansive and inclusive thinking. It was not to be.   I am saddened that you have chosen to ignore me.   My comments on the two quotes of Peter Ustinov you have given:   - Nightmares are as much a part of you as your dreams are. Nightmares are nothing else but your dreams that you do not like. Both are the products of your own mind.   - The endless forgiveness required for Love is not for others alone. You must be able to forgive your own self too. It may be hard to forgive others. It is much harder to forgive your own self.   Here are two other quotes attributed to Peter Ustinov:   1. "Once we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our mind, our one duty is to furnish it well."   2. “Intelligent or not, we all make mistakes and perhaps the intelligent mistakes are the worst, because so much careful thought has gone into them”   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli wrote: From: gowhar fazli Subject: [Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra! To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 10:54 PM Bravo Kshmendra just won! >From hence forth i am planning to ignore him. Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Lies withdrawn & Accusations questioned > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , gowharfazili at yahoo.com > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:56 PM > Dear Gowhar >   > I do not comment on every single posting about Kashmir. > Even when I feel strongly about something that might have > been mentioned, I do not always comment. Sometimes I do. >   > This List is one such public forum of record that (as far > as we know today) gets archived for 'ever' and > therefore will serve as a very convienient and easily > accesible reference library for all such > subjects/topics/issues that get mentioned on > it. Non-factual information on it needs to be challenged. >   > If one were to use on the Web the search string of > "amarnath land row" and "deaths" it > would throw up your mail saying that "The valley has > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath > land row". >   > That is not opinion but information. Incorrect information. > Thank you for having withdrawn it. >   > You might still be smarting (understandably so) by my abuse > directed at you, but that does not mean you should > misrepresent what I had written. >   > We have both regretted the death of 'innocents'. > What makes your use of that word sincere and my use as being > loaded with other meanings as suggested by you? >   > Not only did I write about the deaths of > 'innocents': >   > """"""" It is true that > 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since > the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such > death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized > society """"" >   > Going further than that, I also wrote about the deaths of > others who (by whichever standard and from whichever point > of view) might not be seen as "innocents. I wrote: >   > """""" I consider even the > deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of > violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, > regretable and avoidable.""""" >   > If it is not clear from the above and I need to spell it > out; For me any death (in context) is unfortunate, sad, > regretable, avoidable, unacceptable. >   > Since it is the season for talking about > "Accusations" on this List, let me come to those > directed by you at me. >   > 1. In the earlier mail you seem to suggest that you were a > 'special target of abuse' because you are a > "Kashmiri Muslim". I see it as an accusation that > you need to prove. >   > In your first post, neither did you identify yourself as > being a Kashmiri Muslim, nor did I recognise you as being > one when I 'abused' you. Isnt that correct? >   > On the other hand, without any such reference to myself by > me, you gave me the identity-tag of a "Brahmin". > Alongwith it you gave me attributes of attitudes of > various kinds of 'hates'. You had no justification > for doing so.   >   > My attack on you and the 'abuse' was at you as the > author of the words you had posted. You as a person and not > at any identity-tag you may carry or want to be recognised > by. >   > 2. You do need to prove all the "Accusations" > directed at me: >   > - "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and > inferior"; > - "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; > - "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and > abuse"; > - "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for > abuse". > > Gowhar, you are so very wide-off-the-mark on every one of > those accusations that it is amusing. If nothing else, my > postings on this List testify to that, so do not bother to > defend your accusations. I excuse you. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli > wrote: > > From: gowhar fazli > Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal > Abuse... > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:01 PM > > Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include > Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has > bettered > mine. I thank him for his work of genius. In fact, > between > the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they > choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality > depending on where they come from, and take moral > positions. > > > To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so > close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5" > figure and replace it with "scores of people", > "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has > become a norm" or "extraordinary number"... > For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less, > is equally criminal (notice he puts the word > 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may > not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is > innocent!) Killing a couple of hundred more or less does > not make a very big difference to the immorality of > shooting > on crowds to force them indoors. > > The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat > conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim) > and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect > identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. > But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am > glad they are both physically safe... for now. > > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim > > wrote: > > > > > From: inder salim > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to > > spitting and verbal Abuse... > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM > > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that > is > > the > > > question: A > > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and > Kshmendra > > ---- ( > > > keeping in > > > mind that the facts are stranger than fiction, > but > > the > > > reverse can > > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet > > theirs > > > only ) > > > > > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about > exact > > > statistics of > > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in > > Kashmir. > > > Even Panun > > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, > since > > late > > > nineties, > > > should have given a breather to India to bring > about a > > > serious > > > dialogue. But what do they do? > > > > > > Kshmendra: I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a > young > > > woman > > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats > she is > > > receiving... > > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I > know > > of > > > so many of > > > them who have used and subverted democratic > > institutions > > > for their own > > > interest. > > > > > > Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though > I > > agree in > > > part with yours. > > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a > daily > > > basis since > > > Amarnath land row. > > > > > > ( I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and Cosmic SHE > will be > > > talking to each > > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in > kashmir > > ?) > > > > > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair. > > > > > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine. > > > > > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' > have > > died > > > in the 'valley' > > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I > consider > > any > > > such death as > > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized > > society. > > > But yours, > > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the > > 'theatre > > > of false propaganda. > > > > > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom > you > > do > > > not like or > > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a > > > 'moron' > > > > > > Kshmendra : for sure you are a "moron' > and a > > > "filthy liar" and fully > > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'. > > > > > > Gowhar : 'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how > > Kashmiris > > > should behave > > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership > has to > > > suite India's > > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' > that > > the > > > basic > > > conditions for such an exercise and the > atmosphere to > > > engender such a > > > collectively have been systematically removed > from > > Kashmir; > > > Just to > > > keep people from demonstrating for Azadi or > > protesting > > > against > > > elections… > > > > > > > > > > > > to be continued.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili > > > > > > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is > > something > > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in > 'aside' > > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of > > > information. In this case your 'filthy > lie' > > of: > > > > > > > > """""" The > valley > > has > > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis > since > > Amarnath > > > land > row.""""""" > > > > > > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2) > > > > > > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy > lie' > > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might > be > > it's > > > author, whether in a factual representation or in > a > > > fictional one. > > > > > > > > If you are not the protagonist > "HE" in > > your > > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed > about > > any > > > comments directed at "HIM". > > > > > > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to > > describe > > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) > is a > > word > > > that I have not introduced into this List to > describe > > > someone like you. > > > > > > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in > your > > > conversation piece then for sure you are a > > "moron' > > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving > of > > what > > > you call 'abuse'. > > > > > > > > You whine that I should have placed > 'counter > > > figures' of what you think would be "a > dozen > > more > > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine > > considering > > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) > realistic > > > 'death count' and the 'figures' > > suggested by > > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count > of 2 > > to > > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. > > There, one > > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot. > > > > > > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started > > sometime > > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since > it > > started. > > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to > 5', > > the > > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. > Do > > you see > > > what an 'idiot' you are? > > > > > > > > In this particular case let me distort the > > application > > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The > "Latin > > legal > > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, > non qui > > negat > > > (the > > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on > who > > > denies)" In this case your assertion of > > > """""" The valley > has > > seen two > > > to five people dead on a daily basis since > Amarnath > > land > > > row.""""""" > > > > > > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to > place > > me > > > into a compartment for which you have the > identifying > > > construct of "abused as a child"; > > "severe > > > mental imbalance"; "(needing) > psychological > > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you > are > > impure > > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as > to > > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current > objects > > of hate > > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as > special > > > targets for abuse". > > > > > > > > This is one more 'theatrical device' > in > > the > > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If > questioned > > about > > > "filthy lies" for which you have no > > justifiable, > > > credible and believable response you attack the > > questioner > > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her > that > > will > > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with > suspicion and > > shift > > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'. > > > > > > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me > can > > only > > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not > excuse > > your > > > "filthy lie" > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > From: gowhar fazli > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more > to > > spitting > > > and verbal Abuse... > > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM > > > > > > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... > > > Kshmendra's use of this language > > > > against me on the readers list suggests he > might > > have > > > been abused as a child. > > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being > > abused as > > > a child can create severe > > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among > > people. It > > > might be high time for > > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological > help > > > because it has bearing on his > > > > quality of life and of those around him. > > > > > > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the > > 'HE' > > > in the dialogue I > > > > posted... in which case he could have placed > his > > > counter figures (say a couple > > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and > decently > > asked > > > for the source....There was > > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive. > > > > > > > > The other more profound explanation could be > that > > it > > > forms part of his > > > > socialisation and culture. Brahmin's > have > > long > > > held it to be their right to > > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and > > inferior. > > > So in this light, cases > > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not > like or > > > calling somebody a 'filthy > > > > liar' or a 'moron' might be an > > attempt to > > > reclaim that right and > > > > culture against the current community they > hate, > > or to > > > use a turn of phrase, > > > > want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be > the > > current > > > objects of hate and insult > > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most > > assertive > > > among them, they happen to > > > > be the special targetsof abuse. > > > > > > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about > exact > > > statistics of the dead, but two > > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... > Hers, > > that > > > the democratic exercise > > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the > > collective > > > good... His, that the > > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and > the > > > atmosphere to engender such a > > > > collectivity have been systematically > removed > > Kashmir. > > > > > > > > Is it strange that he did not have any > opinion on > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A > > filthy > > > lie by Gowhar Fazli. > > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > , > > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com > > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 > PM > > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli > > > >> > > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the > > conversation > > > you have > > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself > are > > the > > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy > liar. > > > >> > > > >> I refer to the statement: > > > >> > > > >> """""" > The > > valley > > > has seen > > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > > since > > > Amarnath land > > > >> > > row.""""""" > > > >> > > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have > died > > in > > > the > > > >> 'valley' since the start of the > > Amarnath > > > Land Row. I > > > >> consider any such death as sad, > unfortunate > > and > > > unacceptable > > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even > the > > > deaths of > > > >> those who have consciously chosen the > path of > > > violence to > > > >> further their agenda as being sad, > > unfortunate, > > > regretable > > > >> and avoidable. > > > >> > > > >> But that does not mean that > 'morons' > > like > > > >> you should have the licence to float > blatant > > lies > > > on this > > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with > the > > smug > > > >> thought that you will not be questioned. > > > >> > > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you > a > > > 'filthy > > > >> liar'? > > > >> > > > >> I invite you to evidence the statement > of 2 > > to 5 > > > deaths > > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the > start > > of > > > the > > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any > > credible > > > news source > > > >> of your choice. A credible news source > would > > for > > > sure have > > > >> a presence on the Web where your > statement > > can be > > > confirmed > > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being > a > > > 'filthy > > > >> lie' as I have called it. > > > >> > > > >> Kshmendra > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> From: gowhar fazli > > > > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah > Muah! > > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > > > >> > > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 > PM > > > >> > > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! > > (Commenting > > > on my > > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!) > > > >> > > > >> HE: :) > > > >> > > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance > and > > > bollywud magic > > > >> that day on tv > > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and > > > kisses....wah!!! > > > >> > > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one > in > > > Kashmir n one > > > >> in US! > > > >> > > > >> SHE: How can there be any > comparison.....look > > at > > > the > > > >> conduct of political > > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for > each > > > other....more > > > >> to blame is also > > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream > > > India......in fact in > > > >> south Asia, the > > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote > bank > > and > > > slur....we > > > >> still have to grow as > > > >> a democracy...remember we are only > 60..as > > compared > > > to US > > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir > > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what > exactly > > they > > > blame > > > >> the Indian govt of > > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, > a > > young > > > woman > > > >> contesting from > > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is > > > receiving... what > > > >> does the Hurriyat want > > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of > them > > who > > > have used > > > >> and subverted > > > >> democratic institutions for their own > > interest. U > > > know the > > > >> major draw back in > > > >> our part of the world is that we do not > have > > the > > > courage > > > >> for self correctness, > > > >> self introspection.....USA did > that....they > > have > > > brought in > > > >> change...I admire > > > >> that... > > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... > > > >> > > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this > though I > > agree > > > in part > > > >> with yours > > > >> > > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to > Kashmir > > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a > call > > for > > > Jamia > > > >> Chalo for killing of 5 > > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... > > > >> > > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people > > protested > > > in Kashmir > > > >> for Azadi and were > > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the > protests... > > > Kashmir is in > > > >> no mood for election > > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed... > > without > > > any > > > >> negotiation with the > > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the > > government > > > can offer > > > >> is to impose a > > > >> conventional election to meet its > deadline to > > show > > > that all > > > >> is well in Kashmir. > > > >> It is not. > > > >> I think the bigger problem is this not > the > > > morality of > > > >> our local politicians. > > > >> the conditions we live in can only > produce > > the > > > kind of > > > >> politicians we presently > > > >> have. > > > >> USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush > for > > eight > > > years > > > >> before it was time for > > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi > decides > > how > > > Kashmiris > > > >> should behave and who > > > >> should be in power. > > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite > India's > > > self-image its > > > >> foreign policy and > > > >> morality. > > > >> > > > >> SHE: you forget that people who are > standing > > for > > > elections > > > >> ( record number > > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each > other > > , > > > their party > > > >> workers shouting anti > > > >> India slogans ) or people wanting to > vote > > are > > > also > > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun > > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though > for > > > different > > > >> reasons. They are > > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who > want > > to > > > vote are > > > >> Kashmiris too...so are > > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are > > Ladhakis , > > > Poocnhis, > > > >> etc who want to > > > >> vote...no one is shying away from > resolving > > the > > > >> issue...spell out the agenda > > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why > > intimidate > > > them, > > > >> kill them...why instill > > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say > > they..I > > > mean all > > > >> those, religious > > > >> groups, media, separatist so called > > > nationalist.... who > > > >> want to build their own > > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu > or > > anywhere > > > >> else...as I said we need to > > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues > is > > bit > > > >> difficult... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> HE: I didn't forget them... > Ladakhis, > > Pandits, > > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who > > > >> want to vote for various reasons... Yet > > > daily > > > killing to > > > >> keep people to keep > > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or > > protesting > > > against > > > >> elections (peacefully I > > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily > armed > > > security forces > > > >> from by lanes as > > > >> serious violence especially when you are > > > permanently held > > > >> under section 144) > > > >> cannot be justified because some people > there > > or > > > elsewhere > > > >> want to vote. The > > > >> context in which elections are happening > is > > pure > > > >> imposition... more of what has > > > >> been happening all along. > > > >> Given the circumstances in Kashmir, > spelling > > out > > > agendas > > > >> is not possible and > > > >> largely the establishment which wields > power > > in > > > Kashmir is > > > >> responsible for > > > >> maintaining such a situation there. > There > > is > > > too much > > > >> intelligence > > > >> interference... too much security > structure > > to > > > allow people > > > >> to breathe... let > > > >> alone have a Democratic process. Too > much of > > > humiliation > > > >> on the daily basis to > > > >> let a person feel human enough... Even > > those who > > > were > > > >> alienated from religion > > > >> or primordial identities are being > pushed to > > adopt > > > these > > > >> for bare survival. In > > > >> wake of this the only articulation that > is > > > possible is hate > > > >> or violence. You > > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and > ask > > him/her > > > to talk > > > >> peace. They might > > > >> oblige until you get off... but then > hate you > > with > > > all the > > > >> intensity they can > > > >> muster soon after that. > > > >> I think the situation is like this... > We > > have > > > beaten > > > >> Kashmiris to the point of > > > >> making them into brutes... and now we > justify > > the > > > >> continuity of violence by > > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and > > deserve > > > it! > > > >> Two stints of stooge governments in > Kashmir > > since > > > late > > > >> nineties should have > > > >> given a breather to India to bring about > a > > serious > > > >> dialogue. But what do they > > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is > the > > solution > > > and > > > >> squander the chance. > > > >> We cannot maintain the facade of moral > > preachers > > > after all > > > >> that has happened > > > >> in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in > shame > > and > > > let the > > > >> people have their say. > > > >> Even though what they decide might not > be to > > our > > > liking and > > > >> in our opinion > > > >> disastrous for them. Too often our > personal > > > interests get > > > >> enmeshed with our > > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment > such > > that we > > > cannot > > > >> see what is actually > > > >> happening to people. > > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing > > judgments > > > on the > > > >> people of Kashmir and > > > >> demonizing them. I hope more of the > civil > > society > > > >> activists who engage with > > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so. > > > >> > > > >> When you refer to intimidation and > killing i > > am > > > surprised > > > >> that you miss out the > > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right > > now... the > > > CRPF! > > > >> You see we percieve > > > >> different realities because of where > each of > > us is > > > located. > > > >> The valley has seen > > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis > > since > > > Amarnath > > > >> land row. This seems to > > > >> be the current policy. CRPF is > communalised. > > I > > > have my > > > >> batchmates within the > > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts > of > > how the > > > force > > > >> percieves ordinary > > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed > or > > > humiliated for > > > >> no reason but for > > > >> what they are. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media > > and > > > the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in > > > >> the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > >> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 08:03:21 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:33:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] A conflict of visions -by Tom Sowell Message-ID: <427594.84190.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, Here is a review of a conceptual formulation by Tom Sowell that I came across long time ago.I find it a very interesting and perhaps more insightful crucible to analyze value positions across weather beaten political positions. Thanks Rahul http://rantsand.blogspot.com/2007/04/review-conflict-of-visions-by-thomas.html Dr. Thomas Sowell is one of those authors whose laundry lists I'd read. Reading A Conflict of Visions was one of the "Ah-ha!" moments of my life. Sowell is an economist, newspaper columnist and Fellow at the Hoover Institution. He is a prolific writer on economics, public policy, history, culture and the politics of race. His opinions are often controversial and he has strong detractors and supporters. Agree or disagree, he is an opinion leader of considerable influence in our society today. In observing arguments for and against a wide variety of positions, Dr. Sowell reports that he noticed that in many cases participants seemed to be arguing not so much against each other, but past each other. In other words, each person was arguing not against the others’ position but what they perceived those positions to be, which was often far different from the actual positions held. Over time he refined his observations into the theory expressed in, A Conflict of Visions – Ideological Origins of Political Struggles (Basic Books, 2002). I believe this book has critical insights important for understanding the major ideological conflicts within Western civilization and has specific application to understanding the controversies concerning academic and journalistic bias. His thesis is that prior to paradigms, world-views, theories or any rationally articulated models there is an underlying vision, defined (quoting Joseph Schumpeter) as a “pre-analytic cognitive act”. Sowell further defines a vision, “It is what we sense or feel before we have constructed any systematic reasoning that could be called a theory, much less deduced any specific consequences as hypotheses to be tested against evidence. A vision is our sense of how the world works.” Visions are a sense of the possibilities of human reason and power to act purposefully to achieve desired ends and are broadly defined as Constrained and Unconstrained. An unconstrained vision sees articulated reason as powerful and potent to shape human society, a constrained vision sees human beings as more limited by human nature and natural law. Dr. Sowell concedes that visions are rarely pure but range from strongly to weakly constrained or unconstrained. People may hold one sort of vision in a certain sphere of opinion and another in a different sphere, there are hybrid visions (Marx and John Stuart Mill are given examples) and people sometimes change predominant visions over their lifetimes. It is important to note that he does not equate constrained and unconstrained visions with the Left/ Right model of the political spectrum, nor do they strongly reflect the Libertarian/ Authoritarian dichotomy. An unconstrained vision characterizes the Utopian Socialists of the early nineteenth century (such as Fourier) but is also strongly expressed by William Godwin, considered by many to be the founder of modern Anarchism, in his Enquiry Concerning Political Justice. The unconstrained vision is more often characteristic of those who would use the coercive power of the state to affect great changes in the structure of society and human nature, but it cannot be assumed that a constrained vision leads to a blind defense of the status quo. He gives the example of Adam Smith, an exemplar of a strongly constrained vision, was an advocate of sweeping social changes such as the abolition of slavery and an end to mercantilist policies. Once grasped, Dr. Sowell’s theory makes sense of some seeming inconsistencies and contradictions in both Left and Right positions. For example, though there is a tendency for the constrained vision to predominate among the politically Conservative and free market advocates, it is not absolute or consistent. A Conservative may argue for the superior efficacy of market processes to serve the social good (as opposed to purposeful direction of the economy) but fail to see the market for illegal drugs as subject to the same laws of supply and demand as other commodities or consider the argument that the process costs of drug prohibition may be higher than the social costs of drug addiction. In fact, the phrase “consider the argument” is misleading. It is possible that the argument simply does not exist in his perceptual universe and is interpreted as advocacy for drug use. On the other end of the political spectrum, a thinker such as Paul Ehrlich (in The Population Bomb) may argue from the highly constrained view of Thomas Malthus on population and food resources, combined with an unconstrained view of the ability of the state to effectively control population and allocation of resources for the general good of mankind. And we see on both the Left and Right, visionaries holding strong beliefs about the ability of humans to deliberately shape culture to reflect whichever set of values held by their respective advocates. Though much experience in the twentieth century has shown how limited the ability of men is to design culture as if it were an engineering project, and how disastrous the attempts often are, men and women of unconstrained vision persist in their advocacy of policies intended to rid society of gender defined roles on the one hand or of behavior considered “vice” on the other. So the question arises, if the concept of the contrasting visions is hedged about with so many qualifications, is it at all useful in categorizing belief systems or explaining behavior? I believe it is highly useful. In Western civilization there exists no serious argument about the desirability of that condition expressed by the words “freedom” and “equality”. Yet in the West we find that whenever advocates of various causes argue for their sides, their definitions do not coincide, i.e. they argue past each other. Advocates of redistributionist policies, affirmative action to achieve more socioeconomic equality and a high degree of taxation and market regulation are seen as tending towards totalitarianism by advocates of a less intrusive government. Contrariwise, advocates of leaving the pursuit of the social good to voluntary and market processes are seen by political opponents as apologists for powerful and rapacious economic elites in their drive to impose a quasi-royal authority on society via economic coercion. For those who see government as a powerful engine for social engineering, it is desired results that matter. If it is possible for the state to eliminate poverty and insure socio-economic success for historically disadvantaged groups then it follows that it is immoral not to do so. Arguments that the goals lie outside the state’s competence or that process costs are too high or that the attempt itself is counterproductive will simply not register and almost inevitably must be interpreted in terms of ulterior motive. Thus a TV journalist can make a parenthetical remark on a broadcast about how African-Americans are still not as “free” as Whites in the US. One who considers freedom to be the absence of legal coercion might ask how are they not free today when all forms of legal discrimination have been abolished by Supreme Court decisions and federal law? The answer would reflect the definition of “freedom” as opportunity, a definition that will conflate “poor and disadvantaged” with “unfree”. The definition that limits freedom to a relationship of men in society where physical force or fraud in human relationships is made illegal with no further attempt to redress inequalities of wealth, education, opportunity etc, is sometimes derided as “freedom to starve”. Likewise the condition called “equality” is seen by those with opposing visions as either a process or a result, leading them to almost diametrically opposite interpretations of the term. To someone of unconstrained vision who views equality as a result, the socioeconomic lagging of certain groups behind others is prima facie evidence of externally imposed inequality (such as persistent discrimination) in society. To someone who views equality as the absence of legally imposed barriers to opportunity, the outcome is the result of values and choices and irrelevant to questions of justice as seen by people of unconstrained vision. Those with a constrained vision tend to regard socioeconomic inequalities between individuals and groups as the inevitable result of inborn human variations in ability, different cultural indoctrination in values that promote or retard economic success and individual choices. Those of unconstrained vision tend to regard them as the result of artificially imposed constraints and when inequalities persist beyond the removal of obvious constraints will keep looking for them rather than change their model of causation. Dr. Sowell has elaborated this theory far more than can be covered in a short review. He examines in detail visions of justice, power and equality and the difference between visions and paradigms, values and theories. What is important to the problem of both academic and journalistic bias is how contrasting visions lead to unconscious assumptions about how the world works, and how that affects their interpretation of events. For those of unconstrained vision, though socioeconomic equality may be a strongly held value, they are nonetheless going to tend strongly towards intellectual elitism. If articulated reason is held to be the most powerful force for the social good then it must follow that society should be lead by the most advanced and progressive thinkers. Those who view the collective wisdom of individuals operating within their own spheres of experience to be superior to the ability of others to direct their destinies will be seen as self-interested, reactionary and apologists for injustice. Those who see themselves as being in the intellectual vanguard of progress will tend to be strongly attracted to the fields of teaching, liberal arts, humanities, and journalism, and moreover, will tend to regard journalism as an extension of the teaching profession. Unconstrained visions flourish in the absence of deep experience. In business, the natural sciences and engineering, theories about the way things ought to work (within their sphere of activity) are constantly tested against the way they do in fact work: profitability, repeatable experiments and bridges that don’t fall down all serve as reality checks against extending theory further than is warranted by the facts. An academic environment tends to insulate against experience and journalism, by the nature of the news cycle, tends to expose practitioners to a superficial kind of experience, most especially among the newsreader “talking heads” who are basically presenters rather than researchers. The consequences of the predominance of this vision among many academics and journalists are subtle and powerful and may include: *Dismissal of other points of view as unworthy of reporting rather than attempting to refute them, not from motives of conscious fraud but simply from failure to take them seriously, often because of… *Attribution of motive. It noteworthy how often arguments give the “real” motive of the opposing point of view – the one thing that cannot be known for certain. Motives can be strongly inferred only by a ruthlessly honest appraisal of one’s own nature – but it is seldom the case that a partisan for a particular point of view argues that “His motive is probably thus because that is what I experience in myself.” *Unsupported parenthetical remarks among university lecturers and telejournalists. A broadcast from location often cannot be edited due to time constraints. It is interesting to note how often among the narrative of events a sentence that is unsupported comment can be slipped in. *The use of ad hominem attacks (both Direct and Circumstantial) on someone’s credibility, probably coming from the unconscious assumption that since articulated reason can show the way to the social good, then conclusions about how to achieve it must be consistent among reasonable people. Disagreement about means and ends are seen as coming from ulterior motives, villainy or stupidity. Dr. Sowell sees the theory as explaining a lot about the ideological struggles of the past two centuries – and sees no end in sight for the conflict of visions. However an appreciation of the role of visions in shaping worldviews can help make sense of opposing views for those who disagree and shows us that opposing views are not capriciously chosen or necessarily stemming from ulterior motives, but are internally self-consistent within the framework of the underlying vision. One may even hope that this appreciation may lead at least to genuine argument of the points at issue rather than character assassination and attribution of rapaciously self-interested motive. It is fairly obvious that the constrained vision is behind much economic thinking. Economics is after all fundamentally about the way that human beings allocate finite resources. It is not clear that Dr. Sowell is making a blanket condemnation of the unconstrained vision though. He has noted that in the years since he first published, Malthus (on the constrained side) has been proven consistently wrong and he has credited both William Godwin and Ayn Rand (both exponents of the doctrine of the godlike power of human reason) as contributing to the evolution of modern libertarian thought. Possibly a certain element of the unconstrained vision serves to fire the imagination and may be necessary for motivating the spirit of social reform. Only when carried to extremes does it become a demand that society be everywhere remade to conform to a vision of perfection. It also seems evident that though America was founded by men of largely constrained vision, there have been elements of both visions in our national culture from the beginning. The Founding Fathers did in fact design our federal institutions and were quite aware that they were creating a new social order by an act of will. However, they did so with a realistic appraisal of human nature, careful research of historical confederations and built upon local institutions that had been in operation for nearly two centuries. Since our beginnings American culture has reflected both utopian and pragmatic visions, a pattern that shapes our political discourse to this day. ************************************************************************************ The following chart is drawn from some of the major points of Dr. Sowell’s theory of visions. Since it is a collection of very short abstractions, responsibility for how well it represents the author’s thought rests with me. Constrained Vision: Sees human nature as fixed, unchanging, selfish and ambitious, which must be subordinated to society to some extent. Unconstrained Vision: Sees human nature as malleable, perfectible whose uncorrupted form will be expressed in the good society. ----- CV: Freedom is defined as the absence of coercion by other human beings. UV: Unfreedom seen as the absence of opportunity. ----- CV: Emphasis on process costs. Seeks optimum trade-offs. UV: Emphasis on motives and the desired results. Seeks solutions. ----- CV: Sees tradition as expressing the accumulated experience of the culture. UV: Sees tradition largely as outmoded superstition. ---- CV: Sees articulated reason as less important than “distributed knowledge” expressed in market processes. Emphasis on experience. UV: Sees articulated reason as powerful and effective. Emphasis on logic. ----- CV: Seeks the social good in making allowances for human nature, such as checks and balances in government, using mutual jealousy as a counterbalance against ambition and greed on the part of the powerful. UV: Seeks the social good in the elevation of an enlightened and progressive leadership. ----- CV: Preference for evolved systems. UV: Preference for designed systems. ----- CV: Characterized by the belief that the evils of the world can be explained by inherent characteristics of human nature. War and crime may be rational, if immoral, choices. UV: Characterized by the conviction that foolish or immoral choices explain the evils of the world. War and crime seen as aberrations. ----- CV: Tends to compare the status quo with worse alternatives. UV: Tends to compare the status quo with hypothetical perfection. ----- CV: Exemplary thinkers: Adam Smith, Thomas Hobbes, Edmund Burke, The Federalist, Thomas Malthus, de Tocqueville, Oliver Wendell Holmes, F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman… UV: Exemplary thinkers: William Godwin, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Thomas Paine, Condorcet, Fourier, Harold Laski, Thorstein Veblen, John Kenneth Galbraith, Ronald Dworkin From aman.am at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 08:09:10 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:39:10 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920811101839n44739461ybdd31bfc8786ebac@mail.gmail.com> I demand answers too! Whose plot is this? Who who who? A plot by an extreme leftist? or a left extremist? or perhaps a leftish extremist? A pinkish puppet? or a maoist muppet? A plot by an anti-india agency? because this is clearly a matter of national security - in fact, a case of extremely national security. A plot by rightist muslim groups? or a righteous muslim groups? or the mightiest of muslim groups? or the righty-ist of muslim groups? A plot by pseudo secularists? or could they be judo peculiarists? Or ludo lobotomists? A dictatorial member? But whose? I'm just plundering whose wart this is !!! In this whole Ramayana; I feel like Soorpanakha - (or at least Swaroop Khana) - who was defaced for no fault of her own! Or Sita - fated to spend an entire summers of television viewing doing nothing but crying and muttering under my breadth ... I know - it's the ISI. Those damn statisticians .. they never could understand the true nuances of a mythological metaphor....damn standard deviators! What do they deviate from .. thats what i demand answers to! Do not send to know for whom the bell curves.. It curves for me anxiously awaiting answers a. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:08 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from the list ? > > Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > > Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in the forum but pull > the strings ? > > Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy fought ? > > Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not want us to expose > yasin malik ? > > Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > > Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets defeated everytime > they make a terrorist a hero ? > > Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > > Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > > is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > > Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > > I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > > In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a well plotted > Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are on my side . > > The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this group is still > blind ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sood.ashima at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 08:16:26 2008 From: sood.ashima at gmail.com (Ashima Sood) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:46:26 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List Message-ID: <627409d50811101846y51a41776qa417b8356a069ed4@mail.gmail.com> Kirdar, Danish, Inder Salim, Ravikant, Sabitha and other fellow list members, As a committed reader of reader-list and someone who regularly has her email inbox flooded by Messrs Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan Durani and company, I hear you. But may I request we not dignify the tantrums of this group with a ban? Recently, Mr Aditya Raj Kaul wrote (apologies to Shuddha for reproducing): "This is simply Dumbocracy rule here in SARAI. Shuddha being the originator. His mails are filled with trash, he has bad 'history' and 'Civics'." To me, all these gratuitous insults and juvenile coinages suggest this writer is a brat - very spoiled, very petulant and very cornered . >From where I stand, it's clear that Shuddha, Shivam, Aarti, Prakash, (and many others I could not name without going on a couple of paragraphs) do a very fine (and patient) job of countering the half-baked facts and opinions spewed by Mr. Aditya Kaul and Mr Durani. Doesn't surprise me the only response left to these gentlemen is sputtering and spitting. With their elegantly argued missives on public record, seriously, are they defaming anyone more than themselves? My concern is that if we do banish them to their side of the fence - militarybharat.com or hindurashtra.com or kashmironlyforpandits.com - they will continue without challenge. On this list, they are called to account, and exposed for what they are. Over time, we can be sure they lose a fraction more of the fence-sitter vote. Despite the bother, I suggest those of us not directly in the line of fire make judicious use of the delete button. Even better, drown out the bad talk with good talk. Or maybe think of this as participant observation - we have enacted here a fascinating ethnography of thug thinking. I would love to see a meditation on the sputter and spit among the "stammer, mumble, sweat, scrawl, and tic" and other forms of arrested speech and gesture that Raqs examined on the e-flux journal (http://e-flux.com/journal/view/14) - only here it is the interrogator in the uncomfortable position of being interrogated. At stake here are two visions of public space. We know what Mr. Aditya Raj Kaul would do. He has defended the "protest" - read bully-enforced censorship - against SAR Geelani. Let's not give him the satisfaction of following in his path. Peace and deference to the moderator's decision, Ashima > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:32:26 +0530 > From: Kirdar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "Pawan Durani" > , "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > <73eb60090811090802lc39c17bp5fc62aa1f6a1c462 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Dear Shuddha and all > I agree with you - I think we have had enough. Even I tried > ineffectively to intervene and requested people to stop sullying each > other and come to the point - discuss more practical solutions to your > problems. But it seems they don't have any real issues to discuss. All > they do is to prove everyone an agent of someone or the other. > > I agree that people like Pawan Durani and Adityaraj Kaul should be > expelled from the reader-list. There is a limit to tolerance. Although > they may try to sneak in again by different email IDs, but there has > to be a way out to block them. Maybe you should scrutinize all new > memberships of the reader-list from now on, and make new members only > on invitation. > > In fact I would request these folks to start a new email group to > discuss their issues. They can invite members of Sarai to join the > group if anyone likes. > > Kirdar > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, and am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> Unfortunately it is not without precedent. >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> detailed and cross referenced material that does not support their >> 'case', habitually retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They >> express their desires to 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their >> ABVP / Sri Ram Sena goon allies spit on the faces of university >> lecturers invited to speak at the university. >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> list, and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> associated with 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> insinuations emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late >> from Aditya Raj Kaul) that suggest that whosoever does not agree with >> the PK/RIK gospel or the broad hardline Indian nationalist position >> on anything must be doing so because they are actively doing the >> bidding of their 'foreign masters' and further, because they are >> being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical horizons are severely >> limited and compromised, the makers of these accusations cannot >> imagine that some of us take a principled position against the things >> that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for the ethical >> basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being adversarial >> purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' and >> journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent, >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when the debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay >> Kak's propoganda agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> being paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or >> their local clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of >> the foreign hand' theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal >> weapon) that Indian politicians (and not only Indian politicians) >> resort to when all else fails. It is the true hallmark of a failure >> of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and dismal poverty of >> the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails to conceal a >> rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on >> to the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> keeps, such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots >> in Kashmir' luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' >> to write for their cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is >> the only one that these gentlemen understand, because at least in >> this case, they seem to be doing precisely what (offering a bribe) >> that they accuse us of being beholden to. Rather, this is a case of >> one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the fact that they lament >> not having their current adversaries as their own 'paid agents'. Why >> else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree with them a >> 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has >> been accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been >> accused of taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been >> two specific occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have >> been called 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> either. >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we are writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or >> 'terrorist' is greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, >> I am willing to take on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the >> fact that my bank accounts suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know >> that Pawan Durani should think that my political convictions and >> reflections are available for purchase at such low rates in the >> market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who writes not >> out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and leavings from my >> 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> paid by the hosts or the administrator of the list to write >> anything. No payments are sought from the hosts or administrator for >> any kind of writing either. My professional responsibilities at Sarai >> do not include writing on the Reader List either. >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the >> Sarai programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> professional standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it >> lightly, especially as this has been made on a very public forum. I >> may have been willing to ignore the odd barb of this nature (and it >> is not that it has not been thrown in the past) but when we get seven >> defamatory missives in two weeks, then we are looking at a serious >> and determined pattern that I do not think deserves to be ignored or >> overlooked. >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> with the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> taken, so that they can be traced easily by all list members. My >> comments follow each quotation. Certain portions within each >> quotation have been capitalized for reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> -------------------------- >> 1. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who >> created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , >> Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> soon..." >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by a foreign country' >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> ascertained' >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> how he can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) >> above, or stand charged of making baseless allegations designed to >> malign the character and reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> count as sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> 2. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> JOB FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List >> on any subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I >> want to know what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on >> the Reader List is a 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if >> he cannot substantiate this, it will amount to defamation because it >> will imply that I say what I do, or have the political convictions >> that I have because I am paid for this. In other words, that I am a >> 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, I would again >> like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or allowed >> to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> 3. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from Kashmir >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> support their >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> reading this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid >> job' (again because this is addressed to me). Once again, the >> questions I have asked immediately before this still hold. >> >> 4. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from Kashmir >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> also IT IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> way he does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> 5. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> from Kashmir >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >> we would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> list of my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is >> making here that I write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If >> he does not have this proof, then again, I am constrained to ask >> whether or not he should be expelled from the list for reasons of >> defamation. >> >> 6. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> mean." >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> "Chinese ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> Kuomintang Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural >> preference for Chinese cuisine? >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan is >> referring to a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> specifically those in positions of power within the Chinese Communist >> Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> would identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> critics of Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and >> the government of the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have >> in fact gone on record to point out the similarities between the way >> in which the government of mainland China deals with Tibet, and the >> way in which the Government of India deals with the occupation that >> it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless. >> >> 7. >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> persons' status >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> TONE..." >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> that anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act >> at the behest of their masters. >> >> ----------------- >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> __________________________ >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> the date and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, >> substantiatable proof for what I consider to be the allegations in >> their defamatory and scurrilous postings aimed at me and others on >> this list. >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, >> if the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated >> and inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request >> the list administrator that both of them be expelled from this list >> with immediate effect. >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> favour of freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last >> year and a half) the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and >> their allies (in serious offline discussions) to continue to torment >> this list with their rubbish time and time again when demands have >> been made for his expulsion on grounds of 'hate speech'. I am willing >> to go the extra mile to give the benefit of the doubt when someone >> stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do not agree with >> them, because I think that even things said in anger need a hearing. >> And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul >> and their allies. >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they can do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> conjecture. Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered >> by arguments and better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack >> peoples personal lives and conduct, especially when they are uttered >> on public fora, spread poison if they are not dealt with exemplary >> and immediate severity. There have to be consequences for such >> conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> foreign power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I >> am, or I am not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to >> above suggests that I am, and several others on the list are. And >> since this is a statement about concrete people, not about some >> abstractions . then the only way to settle this is to demand that the >> person or persons making the allegation proves what they say, or >> faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The reason I am >> saying this is because there actually are very serious consequences >> to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in this >> country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on >> the grounds of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying >> itself and the reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license >> to defame a person or persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:18:57 +0530 > From: "Danish Husain" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > <61cdd2df0811090848j8f973d4y176c8c9e54e658b3 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Dear Shuddha: > > I think you've been very lenient by leaving out few other illustrious people > who've been libellous and have been defaming many at free will on this list. > Please expel them immediately because it's been painful to delete trash from > my inbox everyday. I am sure there are many forums who'd willingly embrace > our chest-baring jingoists. And anyway why should they waste time with few > paid commies and foreign stooges. I guess expulsion would save them lot of > heartburns and they can apply their energies more fervently on forums where > people would worship them for taking up their cause. We here are all for > freedom of words but not for freedom of spitting. > > And lastly, I resisted but I can't help saying it that the "chinese > ideology" you ferreted out, let alone knowing them they can't even spell > half of them. > > Thanks for speaking out on behalf of the tormented membership of this list. > > Warmly, > > D > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 09:46:53 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:16:53 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <995a19920811101839n44739461ybdd31bfc8786ebac@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> <995a19920811101839n44739461ybdd31bfc8786ebac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aman, I'll bet my money on palaeorobotists. They are very bad people, as everyone knows. Tapas 2008/11/10 Aman Sethi : > I demand answers too! > > Whose plot is this? Who who who? > > A plot by an extreme leftist? or a left extremist? or perhaps a > leftish extremist? A pinkish puppet? or a maoist muppet? > > A plot by an anti-india agency? because this is clearly a matter of > national security - in fact, a case of extremely national security. > > A plot by rightist muslim groups? or a righteous muslim groups? or the > mightiest of muslim groups? or the righty-ist of muslim groups? > > A plot by pseudo secularists? or could they be judo peculiarists? Or > ludo lobotomists? > > A dictatorial member? But whose? > > I'm just plundering whose wart this is !!! > > In this whole Ramayana; I feel like Soorpanakha - (or at least Swaroop > Khana) - who was defaced for no fault of her own! Or Sita - fated to > spend an entire summers of television viewing doing nothing but crying > and muttering under my breadth ... > > I know - it's the ISI. Those damn statisticians .. they never could > understand the true nuances of a mythological metaphor....damn > standard deviators! What do they deviate from .. thats what i demand > answers to! > Do not send to know for whom the bell curves.. > It curves for me > anxiously awaiting answers > a. > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:08 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from the list ? >> >> Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? >> >> Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in the forum but pull >> the strings ? >> >> Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy fought ? >> >> Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not want us to expose >> yasin malik ? >> >> Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? >> >> Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets defeated everytime >> they make a terrorist a hero ? >> >> Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? >> >> Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? >> >> is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? >> >> Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? >> >> I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! >> >> In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a well plotted >> Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are on my side . >> >> The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this group is still >> blind ! >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Nov 11 09:57:23 2008 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:27:23 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] A Kashmiri migrant is one who speaks Kashmiri and is a migrant or is it? Message-ID: <65be9bf40811102027x7d55837bm881c10bdbfbd6be9@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, In the last one year, we have had many debates on the reader list. For instance, the plight of Kashmiri migrants, the historical wrong that has been committed against them and their legitimate right to lost space and reallocation of public goods to what is right fully theirs. From the point of view of the Indian state, the assertion that -A is a Kashmiri- however has no meaning, unless and other wise it is supported by an identity document. Even if we consider hypothetically that the Kashmir issue is solved, then the Kashmiri migrants will have to deal with another set of problems. They will have to prove that they are Kashmiri and they are migrants. They can only do that if they have identity documents. Of course in the Indian context, until now it was very easy to 'arrange' for such documents. I say until now because the GOI is considering to issue a unique national identity number to all the citizens of India. see the notification below. This number will be a percursor to a digital national identity card that the GOI plans to introduce later. In the months to come it will be interesting to observe how politics around identity in our country will coalesce into contests around procuring numbers. regards Taha** PS: I want to thank Shivam for bringing this press release to my notice. PRESS INFORMATION BUREAU GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ********* GOVERNMENT APPROVES ISSUE OF UNIQUE IDENTITY (UID) NUMBER TO ALL RESIDENTS SINGLE UNIVERSAL IDENTIFICATION TO BE READY FOR USERS BY EARLY 2010 UID Number to all Voters to start with ESTABLISHMENT OF UNIQUE IDENTITY AUTHORITY FOR INDIA Approved - Will obviate need for multiple documentary proof - Facilitate easy verification - Facilitate easy availing of government or private services - Help welfare programmes reach intended beneficiaries - Serve as basis for e-governance services *PRESS NOTE* Department of Information Technology has issued a Press Note as follows: An Empowered Group of Ministers (EGOM) headed by the External Affairs Minister, Shri Pranab Mukherji, approved the establishment of a Unique Identity Authority for all residents of the country. The UID Authority will be set up under the Planning Commission. The approval was accorded at a meeting of the EGOM held on Tuesday, 4th November, 2008. Union Home Minister and Ministers for IT and Communications, Law and Panchayati Raj are members of the EGOM while the Dy. Chairman, Planning Commission is a standing invitee. Creation of a person identity system in a country of over a billion people poses monumental challenges. The approval by the EGOM lays the foundation for the implementation of a Unique Identity system for all residents in the country based on a proposal formulated by the Department of Information Technology at the request of the Planning Commission. The proposed system envisages collaboration among several government agencies backed by intensive use of information technology. There has been a long felt need in the country for a system of unique identification of every individual for a variety of purposes such as better targeting of government's development schemes, regulatory purposes (including taxation and licensing), security purposes, banking and financial sector activities, etc. In the absence of such a nationwide system, each sector of the economy or department/ agency of the government adopts its own system of identification such as PAN card, ration card, Electoral Photo Identity Card, credit cards, etc. Such specific purpose identities were often found to have inherent limitations in accuracy and currency levels on account of low frequency of usage. Moreover, the multiplicity of such systems renders it impossible to correlate information across sectors and even across institutions within the same sector for providing better services to people. Similarly, different agencies of government are unable to correlate their data relating to any particular individual. The Unique Identity Project seeks to assign a unique identity (UID) number to each individual in the country that would remain a permanent identifier right from birth to death of the individual. From the point of view of any person in the country, the UID offers many benefits. First and foremost, it would obviate the need for a person to produce multiple documentary proofs of his identity for availing of any government service, or private services like opening of a bank account, etc. This would end needless harassment that people face for availing of basic government services like issuance of passports, driving licences, Electoral Identity Cards, etc. Backed by intensive use of technology, it would greatly facilitate easy verification of a person's identity and enable a single communication to trigger address changes in all relevant agencies records. It would also serve as the basis for many e-governance services incorporating online verification of a person's identity. UID would enable government to ensure that benefits under various welfare programmes reach the intended beneficiaries, prevent cornering of benefits by a few people and minimize frauds. It would enable financial institutions to exchange information regarding defaulters and encourage responsible borrower behaviour. The scheme envisages that at the inception, the UID number will be assigned to all voters by building on current electoral roll data and progressively adding other persons including persons below 18 years of age who are not a part of the voters list in the country. Over a period of time, through failsafe procedures backed by intensive use of technology and with the help of multiple government agencies, the currency and comprehensiveness of the database will be perfected. The scheme is designed to leverage intensive usage of the UID for multiple purposes to provide an efficient and convenient mechanism to update information. Photographs and biometric data will be added progressively to make the identification foolproof. Easy registration and information change procedures are envisaged for the benefit of the people. The EGOM also approved the modalities of collation of the UID scheme with the National Population Register proposed to be created by the Home Ministry through the Registrar General of the Census of India concurrently with the census 2011 in accordance with the provisions of the Indian Citizenship Act. The UID Authority approved by the EGOM will be responsible for creating and maintaining the core database and to lay down all necessary procedures for issuance and usage of UID including arrangements for collection, validation and authentication of information, proper security of data, rules for sharing and access to information, safeguards to ensure adequate protection of privacy and all aspects related to all of these issues. Any agency, public or private, which deals with individuals and incorporates the UID number of each such individual in its databases, will be able to share information with other agencies which do likewise. While according its approval to the establishment of the UID Authority, the EGOM also approved the core staff required to immediately commence the groundwork of the UID Authority at the Centre and States. The UID Authority will formulate a detailed proposal covering the full cost of implementation and for the full contingent of staff needed and place it before the Cabinet for its approval by the end of December, 2008. The UID is expected to become available to an initial set of users one year thereafter, by early 2010. It is further expected that usage of UID will be progressively extended to various government programmes and regulatory agencies, as well as private sector agencies in the banking, financial services, mobile telephony and other such areas. Over a period of time, the UID is expected to become the single universal identification mechanism across all institutions of the government and the private sector in the country. *Department of Information Technology, Ministry of Communications & IT* PIB, New Delhi: November 10, 2008 (Kartika 19, 1930) From vivek at sarai.net Tue Nov 11 10:18:08 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:18:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <477828.94258.qm@web305.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <477828.94258.qm@web305.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49190E88.2000901@sarai.net> Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that only points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He uses a contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against Black Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is how completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and as an activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not getting this, Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential support base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was more in touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul suggests; or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* that Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the party who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it has gone away only entangles us further. Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. For all he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to come into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, and I think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to critique and challenge Obama] Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's comments equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's ancestry is Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social world in places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine Gordimer apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local wine shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that Nader, Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the dramaturgy of racialised politics. Vivek Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems to be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the irrelevant nature of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will make the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a U.S. president of a different hue... > > Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an attempt to eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has relegated, for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media coverage and commentary... > > NRIII > > Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D > Editor, Kritikos > http://intertheory.org > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul Miller > To: Nicholas Ruiz III > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > > Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally > and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political > context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. > > To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African > American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would > be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive > place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's > trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. > > I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a > Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation > > you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the > saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in > for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in > 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's > presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black > Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the > Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. > > To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think > that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and > balanced." > > in peace, > Paul > > > On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > > >> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >> >> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of >> Obama and McCain... >> >> NRIII >> >> >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >> Editor, Kritikos >> http://intertheory.org >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Paul Miller >> To: V Ramaswamy >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >> >> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth >> University. >> >> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc >> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >> >> OK - response: >> >> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: >> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public >> discourse? No. >> >> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was >> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage >> (as Nader's comment was). >> >> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in >> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about >> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of >> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. >> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, >> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost >> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >> >> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth >> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed >> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not >> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African >> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an >> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support >> with his comments. >> >> in peace, >> Paul >> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >> >> >>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe >>> that was >>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>> "Uncle >>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a >>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>> white >>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>> oneself >>> within that. >>> >>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", >>> by >>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>> silently >>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom >>> he >>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>> rejects. >>> >>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle >>> Tom" a >>> few times. >>> >>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. >>> I don't >>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a >>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>> certain >>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>> ultimately >>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was >>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>> how >>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>> >>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say >>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his >>> "open >>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's >>> bending over >>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>> based >>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>> >>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>> to be >>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>> that >>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>> that >>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like >>> to think >>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>> people can >>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>> what has >>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>> >>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, >>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>> Obama. He is >>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that >>> one's >>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies >>> like >>> these, who needs friends!" >>> >>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on >>> Obama >>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a >>> blog >>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> V Ramaswamy >>> Calcutta >>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 11:53:39 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:53:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] communism not a successful political philosophy Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811102223g58336382wd7f28c04fbd03193@mail.gmail.com> http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~rallen/communism%20final.htm Communism In the texts *The Buddha of Suburbia*, *The God of Small Things*, and *In the Castle of My Skin*, the idea of communism is portrayed as an alluring alternative to the oppressive effects of colonization and a hierarchical social structure. In these three texts communism fails to deliver and is an abortive political philosophy. Communism does not fail simply because it is an inherently failed idea. Rather, communism fails because of the circumstances surrounding its spread as well as the innate shortcomings of the idea itself. Communism fails to deliver its proposed benefits in George Lamming's *In the Castle of My Skin* because of the timing and nature of its spread. The idea of communism is propagated by Mr. Slime, an educated member of the elite who fails to deliver on his promises yet garners the unconditional devotion and hope of the villagers he leads, "Ever since we get the news 'bout the schoolmaster Mr. Slime I feel a sort o' change happen, an' though I ain't got the words to repeat what's in my mouth I feel it all the same…look what he say he goin' to do" (Lamming 76-77). The comparisons between the two men wielding power "who you think would be right in the sight o' God, which of them, Mr. Slime or Mr. Creighton?" indicate the extent to which the existing power structure remains in tact whether it is led by a white man or a 'colored big-shot' (79). The lower class continues to be oppressed by exorbitant land prices following the implementation of Mr. Slime's version of communism. Mr. Slime continues this oppression by in effect replacing the rich white land lord who is removed, distant, and untouchable: Mr. Slime makes very few appearances throughout the book. The ideas of communism are especially enticing for the workers, yet when they revolt it quickly degenerates into violent chaos. Mr. Slime rallies the townspeople behind the idea of communism with promises of equality, autonomy, and rights. These are never realized because communism fails to change the circumstances and structure which keep the townspeople in a state of oppression, thus failing to deliver on its promises. The case of Trumper does make the failure of communism more complex, as he is able to leave, learn a new philosophy, and return with a different perspective on the situation in Barbados. Perhaps this offers a possibility for new ideas to be implemented and actually meet success. Trumper would in fact be an ideal leader for a communist uprising: a member of the lower class who has gained a different perspective on the political and economic situation in his hometown through his experience in America and also has recognized the effects of colonial oppression. This raises an interesting point, because it points again to the circumstances as responsible for the demise of Mr. Slime's communism. The atmosphere in Barbados at the time the story takes place is not conducive to communism: the power at the top of the hierarchical social structure is too enticing for the natives who took power following decolonization. Communism is doomed from the start because it coincides with decolonization. Those who suffer from the fracture of communism from its promises are those at the bottom of the social structure- those who have been oppressed and will continue to be oppressed. Any idea that held so much promise for so many would have garnered the same amount of devotion, and would have failed those with the most to gain so spectacularly because the societal structure is basically feudal. Karl Marx did not envision the success of communism in an underdeveloped country, like Barbados, without the necessary population of industrialized workers who could support the revolution. Therefore, the circumstances force communism to be abortive and fail to deliver on its promises. In Arundhati Roy's *The God of Small Things*, the spread of communism is doomed to failure due to its being concurrent with decolonization. Like the previous text, communism is spread largely from the elites on down, with the exception of Comrade Pillai. Though Pillai is the local leader, he is not responsible for effecting any change and only talks of organizing Chacko's workers rather than actually doing so. Chacko, an elite educated in England, uses communism to seduce his female employees and espouses views which as a "true bourgeoisie" would not serve him if implemented (Roy 59). Chacko's political hero is the "flamboyant Brahmin high priest of Marxism" (64). Of those organizing the communist uprising in India, among the most prominent of leaders is a member of the Brahmin class: the movement is spread from the top down, utilizing the hierarchical social structure which remained perfectly in tact following decolonization. The social structure is, like the previous text, simply not ready for communism. The lower class is not industrialized, and the movement is spread by elites. The conundrum which occurs when a communist party of elites is elected is described as, "the extraordinary-and some say absurd- position of having to govern a people and forment a revolution simultaneously" (65). Those who stand to gain the most are again the losers under a communist government; protests quickly escalate to violence and leave dead landowners in their wake (66). Velutha becomes a victim of this phenomenon when he is forsaken by his party in his time of need "Velutha does not have the patronage of the Communist party" (248). Because of the hierarchical social structure which was in place throughout colonization, the top-down oppression continues; all that changes is the face at the top of the ladder. Chacko uses communism to continue to subjugate his female employees, the communist riots oppress Baby Kochamma by humiliating her, and Velutha remains as untouchable as ever, especially by the very party that should make him their poster child for the true working class. Communism is doomed from the start because the only existing social structure through which it could spread was that of inherent oppression and extreme power for those at the top. The experiences of the failure of communism in India following British withdrawal indicate that communism is best effective when spread in much different circumstances. A revolution for the people must be spread by the people; not by a Brahmins and factory owners. It must be spread among the people and then elected by those people; the structure of society, as Marx envisioned, must change. Communism simply will not succeed if implemented in the same way as colonization. Communism fails because of the societal structure surrounding its spread and implementation forces it to fail. In Hanif Kureishi's *The Buddha of Suburbia, *communism fails as a political philosophy but succeeds as a personal philosophy. Karim is drawn into working for the party by his friend Terry who initially entices Karim with implications of racial equality, "as an active Trotskyite he encouraged me to speak of the prejudice and abuse I'd faced being the son of an Indian" (Kureishi 147). The initial magnetism and promise of communism fails to benefit Karim, who is later used by the party and told that "they are not a party for black people" (238). It is clear that communism failed Karim, but it is not equally clear as to why. Unlike the characters in other texts, Karim never wholeheartedly bought into communism and only pandered to Terry's political beliefs because he was attracted to him, "I said I would sign up with pleasure on one condition. He had to kiss me." (149). Because Karim never fully believed that communism would bring about a world free of prejudices, the sense of abortiveness and disappointment which pervades the other texts is not present here. Also unlike the previous texts, communism is spread among those at the bottom and is more subversive, perhaps because it is not in a colonized country. The communists hope to take power, yet it is clear that their movement in England is more feasible as a social philosophy than a political one. Communism does not fail Changez in this respect, as he is happier than ever living in a commune. Karim and Changez do not hang their hopes on what communism claims to deliver and there is not an enormous let-down as a result. Terry, an Englishman, does expect great things of communism and attempts to lure in Karim with rhetoric and promise of equality. Karim never believes in the political feasibility of communism and simply uses and is used by the party for personal gains; therefore he is not failed by communism, rather communism is viewed with failure from the beginning. As a personal philosophy, communism benefits Changez and allows him to function happily in an accepting and loving setting. In *The Buddha of Suburbia*, communism cannot be treated in the same fashion as the previous texts, because the story takes place in Marx's ideal society. What is shown is that the Party, at least in England, only pays lip service to equality for those oppressed, as it fails to actually benefit Karim. Instead of helping the hybrid child who has suffered as a result of prejudices, Terry uses him to gain financial support. Communism has no feasibility as a political philosophy here, yet for different reasons. It is spread at the bottom through the industrialized working class; yet it flounders and is treated as a passing fad by those it purports to help. As the circumstances did not force the failure of communism, the blame must lie upon the inherent failure of communism as an idea. The circumstances and societal structure are ripe for a communist uprising, yet the idea fails to take hold or follow through on its promises. Communism does not fail as spectacularly in *The Buddha of Suburbia* because it is not given a chance to: it falters as a political philosophy yet not as a personal philosophy. When the nature of communism in these three texts is examined, it initially appears only to denote the inherent failure of the idea of communism itself. This may be, yet when the circumstances surrounding the rise of communism are explored; it becomes apparent that there are more complex factors dictating its failure. Communism purports to help the proletariat, the industrialized workers who have supposedly been oppressed by the bourgeoisie's capitalist greed. In *The God of Small Things* and *In the Castle of My Skin*, communism is spread through the hierarchical social structure in a highly traditional and non-industrialized society which does not lend itself to anything but a system of top-down oppression. Communism has no option but to fail because it was not designed to be implemented in such a way. It is as doomed as a driver in a car without wheels; communism has no feasibility as a political philosophy in highly traditional societies so recently independent of colonization. The failure of communism as an idea is hinted at in *The Buddha of Suburbia*, yet it does not fail completely. As a personal philosophy it does bring with it its initial promises. However, Changez's gains from communism are solely the gain of one man; it cannot be said that when implemented as a personal philosophy it will benefit all. The personal and the political are too closely intertwined to draw a distinction between the two when talking about a philosophy. Communism as an idea does not always fail, as Changez's case shows, however it can be said that given the three texts, communism is not a feasible or successful political philosophy. Works Cited 1. Kureishi, Hanif. *The Buddha of Suburbia*. Penguin Books; New York, New York. 1990. *2. *Lamming, George. *In the Castle of My Skin.* The University of Michigan ** * *Press; Ann Arbor, Michigan. 1970. ** 3. Roy, Arundhati. *The God of Small Things*. HarperPerennial; New York, New York. 1997. From abhishek.hazra at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 12:52:50 2008 From: abhishek.hazra at gmail.com (Abhishek Hazra) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:52:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> <995a19920811101839n44739461ybdd31bfc8786ebac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6deae8300811102322h28d808c6l8589e23253872686@mail.gmail.com> chandrabindoo has to set this to tune! adding of course, "non-vegetarian younger aunt" to the list. http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2005/10/08/stories/2005100803310300.htm (although the write-up doesn't even try to engage with Chandrabindoo's brilliant and notoriously difficult to translate, citational play_which can juggle ultraviolet radiation (ati-beguni rashmi) and 'beguni' (fried brinjal / aubergine) in the same lyric abhishek > Whose plot is this? Who who who? > > A plot by an extreme leftist? or a left extremist? or perhaps a > leftish extremist? A pinkish puppet? or a maoist muppet? > > A plot by an anti-india agency? because this is clearly a matter of > national security - in fact, a case of extremely national security. > > A plot by rightist muslim groups? or a righteous muslim groups? or the > mightiest of muslim groups? or the righty-ist of muslim groups? > > A plot by pseudo secularists? or could they be judo peculiarists? Or > ludo lobotomists? > > A dictatorial member? But whose? > > I'm just plundering whose wart this is !!! On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: > Aman, > > I'll bet my money on palaeorobotists. They are very bad people, as > everyone knows. > > Tapas > > > > 2008/11/10 Aman Sethi : > > I demand answers too! > > > > Whose plot is this? Who who who? > > > > A plot by an extreme leftist? or a left extremist? or perhaps a > > leftish extremist? A pinkish puppet? or a maoist muppet? > > > > A plot by an anti-india agency? because this is clearly a matter of > > national security - in fact, a case of extremely national security. > > > > A plot by rightist muslim groups? or a righteous muslim groups? or the > > mightiest of muslim groups? or the righty-ist of muslim groups? > > > > A plot by pseudo secularists? or could they be judo peculiarists? Or > > ludo lobotomists? > > > > A dictatorial member? But whose? > > > > I'm just plundering whose wart this is !!! > > > > In this whole Ramayana; I feel like Soorpanakha - (or at least Swaroop > > Khana) - who was defaced for no fault of her own! Or Sita - fated to > > spend an entire summers of television viewing doing nothing but crying > > and muttering under my breadth ... > > > > I know - it's the ISI. Those damn statisticians .. they never could > > understand the true nuances of a mythological metaphor....damn > > standard deviators! What do they deviate from .. thats what i demand > > answers to! > > Do not send to know for whom the bell curves.. > > It curves for me > > anxiously awaiting answers > > a. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:08 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > >> > >> Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from the list ? > >> > >> Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > >> > >> Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in the forum but > pull > >> the strings ? > >> > >> Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy fought ? > >> > >> Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not want us to > expose > >> yasin malik ? > >> > >> Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > >> > >> Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets defeated everytime > >> they make a terrorist a hero ? > >> > >> Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > >> > >> Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > >> > >> is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > >> > >> Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > >> > >> I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > >> > >> In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a well plotted > >> Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are on my side . > >> > >> The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this group is still > >> blind ! > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - does the frog know it has a latin name? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 11 13:16:30 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:46:30 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <49190E88.2000901@sarai.net> References: <477828.94258.qm@web305.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49190E88.2000901@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi Vivek, hello Nicholas - the main thing is this: The juxtaposition of a networked, open-source campaign and a historically imperial office will have profound implications and raise significant questions. Special-interest groups and lobbyists will now contend with an environment of transparency and a president who owes them nothing. The news media will now contend with an administration that can take its case directly to its base without even booking time on the networks. More profoundly, while many people think that President-elect Obama is a gift to the Democratic Party, he could actually hasten its demise. Political parties supply brand, ground troops, money and relationships, all things that Mr. Obama already owns. And his relationships are not the just traditional ties of Democrats — teachers’ unions, party faithful and Hollywood moneybags — but a network of supporters who used a distributed model of phone banking to organize and get out the vote, helped raise a record-breaking $600 million, and created all manner of media clips that were viewed millions of times. It was an online movement that begot offline behavior, including producing youth voter turnout that may have supplied the margin of victory. This is an excerpt/collage from a couple of articles that I think are quite on point about the racial politics of the last 40 years. It really turns Nixon's "Southern Strategy" where poor whites were made to vote against their own interests (a la "Joe The Plumber" who would vote against spreading the wealth around, and support John Mccain who can't even remember how many houses he owns...). That kind of bizaare juxtaposition is based squarely on the racial ideology of poor, under- educated whites. Which - again - was stunning coming from Nader. I'll forward an article in a moment. Paul On Nov 10, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) > racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only > relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. > Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that > only > points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised > rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He > uses a > contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against > Black > Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is > how > completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and as > an > activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would > understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being > innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not getting > this, > Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential support > base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was > more in > touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul > suggests; > or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. > > Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* > that > Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say > whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) > offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the party > who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming > months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on > just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved > significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it > has > gone away only entangles us further. > > Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. For > all > he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This > has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's > try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to > come > into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually > points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, and I > think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to > critique > and challenge Obama] > > Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's > comments > equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's > ancestry is > Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began > emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US > and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally > accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South > Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites > settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social world > in > places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native > American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine > Gordimer > apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less > sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local wine > shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- > he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically > tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that > Nader, > Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the > dramaturgy of racialised politics. > > Vivek > > Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems >> to be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the >> irrelevant nature of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin >> color that will make the political difference, even as most recent >> 'political' commentary surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the >> historic nature of a U.S. president of a different hue... >> >> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race >> element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial >> phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an >> attempt to eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that >> has relegated, for Nader, the itemized political issues to the >> backwaters of media coverage and commentary... >> >> NRIII >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >> Editor, Kritikos >> http://intertheory.org >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Paul Miller >> To: Nicholas Ruiz III >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >> >> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally >> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a >> political >> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. >> >> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African >> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would >> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive >> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's >> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. >> >> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a >> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation >> >> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the >> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand >> in >> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in >> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's >> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black >> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the >> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. >> >> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think >> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and >> balanced." >> >> in peace, >> Paul >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >> >> >>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >>> >>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of >>> Obama and McCain... >>> >>> NRIII >>> >>> >>> >>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>> Editor, Kritikos >>> http://intertheory.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Paul Miller >>> To: V Ramaswamy >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>> >>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at >>> Dartmouth >>> University. >>> >>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc >>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >>> >>> OK - response: >>> >>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: >>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in >>> public >>> discourse? No. >>> >>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama >>> was >>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with >>> outrage >>> (as Nader's comment was). >>> >>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if >>> in >>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about >>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds >>> of >>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. >>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of >>> words, >>> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got >>> lost >>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >>> >>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film >>> "Birth >>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed >>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not >>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the >>> African >>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an >>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of >>> support >>> with his comments. >>> >>> in peace, >>> Paul >>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe >>>> that was >>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>>> "Uncle >>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived >>>> as a >>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>>> white >>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>>> oneself >>>> within that. >>>> >>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", >>>> by >>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>>> silently >>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, >>>> whom >>>> he >>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>>> rejects. >>>> >>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called >>>> "Uncle >>>> Tom" a >>>> few times. >>>> >>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. >>>> I don't >>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He >>>> has a >>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>>> certain >>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>>> ultimately >>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I >>>> was >>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>>> how >>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>>> >>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to >>>> say >>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his >>>> "open >>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's >>>> bending over >>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>>> based >>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>>> >>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>>> to be >>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>>> that >>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>>> that >>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like >>>> to think >>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>>> people can >>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>>> what has >>>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>>> >>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a >>>> sore, >>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>>> Obama. He is >>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life >>>> that >>>> one's >>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With >>>> enemies >>>> like >>>> these, who needs friends!" >>>> >>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article >>>> on >>>> Obama >>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a >>>> blog >>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> >>>> V Ramaswamy >>>> Calcutta >>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 11 13:22:42 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:52:42 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] For The American South: a Waning Hold on National Politics Message-ID: <159F6C4A-8A71-4EF6-B7E0-B926A5BABB1E@earthlink.net> This is an interesting article about the whole racial politics of the election. One of the more interesting things for me, as a film maker, is that the old Confederate States are changing - education and multi- culturalism are eroding the ignorant "gun toting, religious fanatic" type that one usually associates with the American South. This will change America's foreign, military, and social policies. Thank whatever divinities you believe in for the demise of the old South! Bobby Jindal is a born again Catholic conservative from a Hindu background! He's thinking of running for president now in 2012... Paul http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?ref=us For South, a Waning Hold on National Politics By ADAM NOSSITER Published: November 10, 2008 VERNON, Ala. — Fear of the politician with the unusual name and look did not end with last Tuesday’s vote in this rural red swatch where buck heads and rifles hang on the wall. This corner of the Deep South still resonates with negative feelings about the race of President- elect Barack Obama. What may have ended on Election Day, though, is the centrality of the South to national politics. By voting so emphatically for Senator John McCain over Mr. Obama — supporting him in some areas in even greater numbers than they did President Bush — voters from Texas to South Carolina and Kentucky may have marginalized their region for some time to come, political experts say. The region’s absence from Mr. Obama’s winning formula means it “is becoming distinctly less important,” said Wayne Parent, a political scientist at Louisiana State University. “The South has moved from being the center of the political universe to being an outside player in presidential politics.” One reason for that is that the South is no longer a solid voting bloc. Along the Atlantic Coast, parts of the “suburban South,” notably Virginia and North Carolina, made history last week in breaking from their Confederate past and supporting Mr. Obama. Those states have experienced an influx of better educated and more prosperous voters in recent years, pointing them in a different political direction than states farther west, like Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi, and Appalachian sections of Kentucky and Tennessee. Southern counties that voted more heavily Republican this year than in 2004 tended to be poorer, less educated and whiter, a statistical analysis by The New York Times shows. Mr. Obama won in only 44 counties in the Appalachian belt, a stretch of 410 counties that runs from New York to Mississippi. Many of those counties, rural and isolated, have been less exposed to the diversity, educational achievement and economic progress experienced by more prosperous areas. The increased turnout in the South’s so-called Black Belt, or old plantation-country counties, was visible in the results, but it generally could not make up for the solid white support for Mr. McCain. Alabama, for example, experienced a heavy black turnout and voted slightly more Democratic than in 2004, but the state over all gave 60 percent of its vote to Mr. McCain. (Arkansas, however, doubled the margin of victory it gave to the Republican over 2004.) Less than a third of Southern whites voted for Mr. Obama, compared with 43 percent of whites nationally. By leaving the mainstream so decisively, the Deep South and Appalachia will no longer be able to dictate that winning Democrats have Southern accents or adhere to conservative policies on issues like welfare and tax policy, experts say. That could spell the end of the so-called Southern strategy, the doctrine that took shape under President Richard M. Nixon in which national elections were won by co-opting Southern whites on racial issues. And the Southernization of American politics — which reached its apogee in the 1990s when many Congressional leaders and President Bill Clinton were from the South — appears to have ended. “I think that’s absolutely over,” said Thomas Schaller, a political scientist who argued prophetically that the Democrats could win national elections without the South. The Republicans, meanwhile, have “become a Southernized party,” said Mr. Schaller, who teaches at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. “They have completely marginalized themselves to a mostly regional party,” he said, pointing out that nearly half of the current Republican House delegation is now Southern. Merle Black, an expert on the region’s politics at Emory University in Atlanta, said the Republican Party went too far in appealing to the South, alienating voters elsewhere. “They’ve maxed out on the South,” he said, which has “limited their appeal in the rest of the country.” Even the Democrats made use of the Southern strategy, as the party’s two presidents in the last 40 years, Jimmy Carter and Mr. Clinton, were Southerners whose presence on the ticket served to assuage regional anxieties. Mr. Obama has now proved it is no longer necessary to include a Southerner on the national ticket — to quiet racial fears, for example — in order to win, in the view of analysts. Several Southern states, including Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee, have voted for the winner in presidential elections for decades. No more. And Mr. Obama’s race appears to have been the critical deciding factor in pushing ever greater numbers of white Southerners away from the Democrats. Here in Alabama, where Mr. McCain won 60.4 percent of the vote in his best Southern showing, he had the support of nearly 9 in 10 whites, according to exit polls, a figure comparable to other Southern states. Alabama analysts pointed to the persistence of traditional white Southern attitudes on race as the deciding factor in Mr. McCain’s strong margin. Mr. Obama won in Jefferson County, which includes the city of Birmingham, and in the Black Belt, but he made few inroads elsewhere. “Race continues to play a major role in the state,” said Glenn Feldman, a historian at the University of Alabama, Birmingham. “Alabama, unfortunately, continues to remain shackled to the bonds of yesterday.” David Bositis, senior political analyst at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, pointed out that the 18 percent share of whites that voted for Senator John Kerry in 2004 was almost cut in half for Mr. Obama. “There’s no other explanation than race,” he said. In Arkansas, which had among the nation’s largest concentration of counties increasing their support for the Republican candidate over the 2004 vote, “there’s a clear indication that racial conservatism was a component of that shift away from the Democrat,” said Jay Barth, a political scientist in the state. Race was a strong subtext in post-election conversations across the socioeconomic spectrum here in Vernon, the small, struggling seat of Lamar County on the Mississippi border. One white woman said she feared that blacks would now become more “aggressive,” while another volunteered that she was bothered by the idea of a black man “over me” in the White House. Mr. McCain won 76 percent of the county’s vote, about five percentage points more than Mr. Bush did, because “a lot more people came out, hoping to keep Obama out,” Joey Franks, a construction worker, said in the parking lot of the Shop and Save. Mr. Franks, who voted for Mr. McCain, said he believed that “over 50 percent voted against Obama for racial reasons,” adding that in his own case race mattered “a little bit. That’s in my mind.” Many people made it clear that they were deeply apprehensive about Mr. Obama, though some said they were hoping for the best. “I think any time you have someone elected president of the United States with a Muslim name, whether they are white or black, there are some very unsettling things,” George W. Newman, a director at a local bank and the former owner of a trucking business, said over lunch at Yellow Creek Fish and Steak. Don Dollar, the administrative assistant at City Hall, said bitterly that anyone not upset with Mr. Obama’s victory should seek religious forgiveness. “This is a community that’s supposed to be filled with a bunch of Christian folks,” he said. “If they’re not disappointed, they need to be at the altar.” Customers of Bill Pennington, a barber whose downtown shop is decorated with hunting and fishing trophies, were “scared because they heard he had a Muslim background,” Mr. Pennington said over the country music on the radio. “Over and over again I heard that.” Mr. Obama remains an unknown quantity in this corner of the South, and there are deep worries about the changes he will bring. “I am concerned,” Gail McDaniel, who owns a cosmetics business, said in the parking lot of the Shop and Save. “The abortion thing bothers me. Same-sex marriage.” “I think there are going to be outbreaks from blacks,” she added. “From where I’m from, this is going to give them the right to be more aggressive.” From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:02:26 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:32:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ek Vivah aisa bhi Message-ID: <316075.18761.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear all,        What a movie!!! Really everybody should watch it!  The real Indian culture,tradition and true emotions.  Great direction and superb action too ofcourse.   Regards, Dhatri. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:04:09 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police Message-ID: <905492.28398.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Prakash,         Your marriage is also in the horror list!  Wow Let your family know about this once and  Find yourself !  There is nothing wrong if you have cds as you are an ADULT, but by watching these if you became a psycho then surely not your/our police but your family will take further steps(house arrest in a mental asylum).  So take care!        huha INDIA! huha INDIA! huha INDIA!   Regards, Dhatri. --- On Sat, 11/8/08, prakash ray wrote: From: prakash ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SIMI activists found with SAR Geelani CDs: Police To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 11:54 PM Dear members of the Indian unit of Ku Klux Klan, I have CDs/DVDs featuring: Demolition of the Babri Mosque Gujarat Carnage 2002 9/11 attacks on WTC Taliban killings people US army torture prisoners US forces killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan Heroshima Bombings Dr Binayak Sen Bal Thakrey's nephew Raj Thakrey Jan Adalat by Maoists Violence in Nandigram My marriage Films made by Michael Moore The Great Dictator by Chaplin ....... Tell your police to arrest me...huh!! Prakash * * _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:35:22 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:05:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <791761.46516.qm@web45504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Aarti,        First it was you started talking on behalf of Inder. Later some confused Sam. Later Shuddha.  Why somuch emotion and what for?  If some body spit on somebody face How does it affect you?        In this process you made list moderator as a pawn.  After all journalism is your profession it doesn't mean that whatever you can write. Whether to smoke or unsmoke its your own choice personal more than that purely helath wise.  The best way you can live is without doing all those, you can also live by doing those don'ts but the difference that makes is BEST.    Regards, Dhatri. --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "Kirdar" , "sarai list" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "we wi" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 2:14 PM I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but bleats to offer. Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as well. So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. Warm regards (as it seems for the last time) Aarti P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any private communications with you at all. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: Lastly, My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which I can understand. The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any member.. So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my ideology. So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am really a hurdle. But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. regards Pawan Durani On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Kirdar, > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > group. > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have one. > > Pawan > > >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >> is ticking. >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Kirdar, >> > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> from . >> > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he >> > considers himself one. >> > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> Geelani >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >> that >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> investigated.What >> > makes the two different ? >> > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in >> all >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and >> non >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this >> list >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >> ..... >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> himself >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , >> Panun >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong >> with >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> However i >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member >> as we >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. >> But >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> these. >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >> odds. >> > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits >> world >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle >> the >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> > supporter of that ? >> > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is >> to >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> undergone >> > Exodus and genocide. >> > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> myself >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >> what >> > not to word. >> > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge >> a >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and >> > others be removed. >> > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >> they do >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Pawan Durani >> > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > > >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> exposed. >> >> > The >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> >> > Aditya , >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> nothing >> >> > but >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> >> > Shivam >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>  Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, >> >> >> and >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >> and >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon >> >> >> allies >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> >> >> list, >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> associated >> >> >> with >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >> >> >> the >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >> so >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> masters' >> >> >> and >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> position >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> account >> >> >> for >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> agent, >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when >> >> >> the >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> >> >> being >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> >> >> local >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >> is >> >> >> the >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >> >> >> fails >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar >> on >> >> >> to >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >> for >> >> >> their >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> >> >> these >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >> >> >> doing >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> beholden >> >> >> to. >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting >> to >> >> >> the >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >> own >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >> >> >> agree >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >> when >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >> line >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >> has >> >> >> been >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >> of >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >> this >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we >> >> >> are >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing >> to >> >> >> take >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> think >> >> >> that >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >> at >> >> >> such >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >> hack >> >> >> who >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and >> leavings >> >> >> from >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> >> payments >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> >> >> either. >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >> the >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >> the >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> >> professional >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> especially >> >> >> as >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing >> to >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >> thrown >> >> >> in >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >> then >> >> >> we >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> >> >> with >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> taken, >> >> >> so >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >> follow >> >> >> each >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> capitalized >> >> >> for >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >> case >> >> >> are >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by >> >> >> a >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> how >> >> >> he >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> >> >> stand >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> character >> >> >> and >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >> know >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> count >> >> >> as >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >> List >> >> >> on any >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want >> to >> >> >> know >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >> List >> >> >> is a >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> substantiate >> >> >> this, >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >> this. >> >> >> In >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> list, >> >> >> or >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> support >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> >> >> reading >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> >> because >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> >> >> way he >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >> we >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> >> >> list of >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here >> >> >> that I >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >> this >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >> be >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> Kuomintang >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >> for >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> specifically >> >> >> those >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> government >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> >> >> would >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> critics >> >> >> of >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >> >> >> record >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >> of >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> >> >> that >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >> the >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> the >> >> >> date >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >> >> >> for >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >> Or, >> >> >> if >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the >> >> >> list >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >> >> >> half) >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> >> >> serious >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> benefit >> >> >> of >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >> when >> >> >> I do >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >> >> >> need a >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >> Raj >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they >> >> >> can >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> arguments >> >> >> and >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> personal >> >> >> lives >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >> >> >> poison >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >> have >> >> >> to >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >> I >> >> >> am >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> suggests >> >> >> that I >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> statement >> >> >> about >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >> >> >> settle >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> >> >> proves >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >> The >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> power' >> >> >> in >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >> the >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> >> person or >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:40:08 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:10:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <601642.75378.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Aarti,        First it was you started talking on behalf of Inder. Later some Sam. Later Shuddha.  Why so much emotion and what for?  If some body spit on somebody face How does it affect you?  Why so much propagonda?            In this process you made list moderator as a pawn.  After all journalism is your profession it doesn't mean that whatever you can write. Whether you be a smoker or nonsmoker its your own choice personal more than that purely health wise.  The best way you can live is without doing all those, you can also live by doing those don'ts but the difference that makes is BEST.      Regards, Dhatri. --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "Kirdar" , "sarai list" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "we wi" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 2:14 PM I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but bleats to offer. Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as well. So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. Warm regards (as it seems for the last time) Aarti P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any private communications with you at all. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: Lastly, My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which I can understand. The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any member.. So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my ideology. So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am really a hurdle. But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. regards Pawan Durani On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Kirdar, > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > group. > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have one. > > Pawan > > >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >> is ticking. >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Kirdar, >> > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> from . >> > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he >> > considers himself one. >> > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> Geelani >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >> that >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> investigated.What >> > makes the two different ? >> > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in >> all >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and >> non >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this >> list >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >> ..... >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> himself >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , >> Panun >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong >> with >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> However i >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member >> as we >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. >> But >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> these. >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >> odds. >> > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits >> world >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle >> the >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> > supporter of that ? >> > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is >> to >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> undergone >> > Exodus and genocide. >> > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> myself >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >> what >> > not to word. >> > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge >> a >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and >> > others be removed. >> > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >> they do >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Pawan Durani >> > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > > >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> exposed. >> >> > The >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> >> > Aditya , >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> nothing >> >> > but >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> >> > Shivam >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>  Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, >> >> >> and >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >> and >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon >> >> >> allies >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> >> >> list, >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> associated >> >> >> with >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >> >> >> the >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >> so >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> masters' >> >> >> and >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> position >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> account >> >> >> for >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> agent, >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when >> >> >> the >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> >> >> being >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> >> >> local >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >> is >> >> >> the >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >> >> >> fails >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar >> on >> >> >> to >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >> for >> >> >> their >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> >> >> these >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >> >> >> doing >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> beholden >> >> >> to. >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting >> to >> >> >> the >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >> own >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >> >> >> agree >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >> when >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >> line >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >> has >> >> >> been >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >> of >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >> this >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we >> >> >> are >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing >> to >> >> >> take >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> think >> >> >> that >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >> at >> >> >> such >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >> hack >> >> >> who >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and >> leavings >> >> >> from >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> >> payments >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> >> >> either. >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >> the >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >> the >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> >> professional >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> especially >> >> >> as >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing >> to >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >> thrown >> >> >> in >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >> then >> >> >> we >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> >> >> with >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> taken, >> >> >> so >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >> follow >> >> >> each >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> capitalized >> >> >> for >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >> case >> >> >> are >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by >> >> >> a >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> how >> >> >> he >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> >> >> stand >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> character >> >> >> and >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >> know >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> count >> >> >> as >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >> List >> >> >> on any >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want >> to >> >> >> know >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >> List >> >> >> is a >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> substantiate >> >> >> this, >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >> this. >> >> >> In >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> list, >> >> >> or >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> support >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> >> >> reading >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> >> because >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> >> >> way he >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >> we >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> >> >> list of >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here >> >> >> that I >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >> this >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >> be >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> Kuomintang >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >> for >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> specifically >> >> >> those >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> government >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> >> >> would >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> critics >> >> >> of >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >> >> >> record >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >> of >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> >> >> that >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >> the >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> the >> >> >> date >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >> >> >> for >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >> Or, >> >> >> if >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the >> >> >> list >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >> >> >> half) >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> >> >> serious >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> benefit >> >> >> of >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >> when >> >> >> I do >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >> >> >> need a >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >> Raj >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they >> >> >> can >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> arguments >> >> >> and >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> personal >> >> >> lives >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >> >> >> poison >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >> have >> >> >> to >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >> I >> >> >> am >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> suggests >> >> >> that I >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> statement >> >> >> about >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >> >> >> settle >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> >> >> proves >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >> The >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> power' >> >> >> in >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >> the >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> >> person or >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 17:05:10 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:35:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List Message-ID: <551160.90918.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Aarti,        First it was you started talking on behalf of Inder. Later some Sam. Later Shuddha.  Why so much emotion and what for?  If some body spit on somebody face How does it affect you?  Why so much propagonda?            In this process you made list moderator as a pawn.  After all journalism is your profession it doesn't mean that whatever you can write. Whether you be a smoker or nonsmoker its your own choice and personal more than that purely health perspective.  The best way you can live is without doing all those, you can also live by doing those don'ts but the difference that makes is BEST.      Regards, Dhatri. --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "Kirdar" , "sarai list" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "we wi" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 2:14 PM I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but bleats to offer. Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as well. So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. Warm regards (as it seems for the last time) Aarti P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any private communications with you at all. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: Lastly, My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which I can understand. The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any member.. So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ] Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my ideology. So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am really a hurdle. But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. regards Pawan Durani On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Kirdar, > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this > group. > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have one. > > Pawan > > >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" - >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy >> about the plight of KPs. >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock >> is ticking. >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Kirdar, >> > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come >> from . >> > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he >> > considers himself one. >> > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on >> Geelani >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write >> that >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being >> investigated.What >> > makes the two different ? >> > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in >> all >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and >> non >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? >> > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this >> list >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate >> ..... >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see >> himself >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... >> > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , >> Panun >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong >> with >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. >> However i >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member >> as we >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. >> But >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of >> these. >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all >> odds. >> > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits >> world >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle >> the >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ? >> > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a >> > supporter of that ? >> > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is >> to >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has >> undergone >> > Exodus and genocide. >> > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I >> myself >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and >> what >> > not to word. >> > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge >> a >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and >> > others be removed. >> > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so >> they do >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! >> > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Pawan Durani >> > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. >> >> >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani > > >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain >> exposed. >> >> > The >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. >> >> > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , >> >> > Aditya , >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. >> >> > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are >> nothing >> >> > but >> >> > figment of his own imagination. >> >> > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , >> >> > Shivam >> >> > and Arti have to be. >> >> > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>  Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our >> list, >> >> >> and >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. >> >> >> Unfortunately it >> >> >> is not without precedent. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' >> and >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with >> >> >> detailed >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case', >> >> >> habitually >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their >> >> >> desires to >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon >> >> >> allies >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the >> >> >> university. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this >> >> >> list, >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals >> associated >> >> >> with >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of >> >> >> insinuations >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj >> >> >> Kaul) >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or >> >> >> the >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing >> so >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign >> masters' >> >> >> and >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled >> position >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to >> account >> >> >> for >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, >> >> >> 'writers' >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid >> agent, >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made >> when >> >> >> the >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's >> >> >> propoganda >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are >> >> >> being >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their >> >> >> local >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign >> >> >> hand' >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It >> is >> >> >> the >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with >> >> >> reality and >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but >> >> >> fails >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar >> on >> >> >> to >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani >> >> >> keeps, >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in >> >> >> Kashmir' >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write >> for >> >> >> their >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that >> >> >> these >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be >> >> >> doing >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being >> beholden >> >> >> to. >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting >> to >> >> >> the >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their >> own >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't >> >> >> agree >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions >> when >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard >> line >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti >> has >> >> >> been >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused >> of >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take >> this >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually >> >> >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what >> we >> >> >> are >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing >> to >> >> >> take >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank >> >> >> accounts >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should >> think >> >> >> that >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase >> at >> >> >> such >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired >> hack >> >> >> who >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and >> leavings >> >> >> from >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is >> >> >> paid by >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No >> >> >> payments >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing >> >> >> either. >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on >> the >> >> >> Reader List either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to >> the >> >> >> Sarai >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my >> >> >> professional >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, >> especially >> >> >> as >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing >> to >> >> >> ignore >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been >> thrown >> >> >> in >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, >> then >> >> >> we >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think >> >> >> deserves >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote >> >> >> with >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is >> taken, >> >> >> so >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments >> follow >> >> >> each >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been >> capitalized >> >> >> for >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN >> >> >> COUNTRY , >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment >> case >> >> >> are >> >> >> being followed more closely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >> links >> >> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out >> >> >> soon..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - >> >> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed >> by >> >> >> a >> >> >> foreign country' >> >> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being >> >> >> ascertained' >> >> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of >> how >> >> >> he >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or >> >> >> stand >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the >> character >> >> >> and >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to >> know >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to >> count >> >> >> as >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME >> >> >> JOB >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader >> List >> >> >> on any >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want >> to >> >> >> know >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader >> List >> >> >> is a >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot >> substantiate >> >> >> this, >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I >> >> >> do, or >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for >> this. >> >> >> In >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this >> >> >> charge, >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this >> list, >> >> >> or >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB, >> >> >> UNLIKE >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and >> support >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from >> >> >> reading >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again >> >> >> because >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked >> >> >> immediately >> >> >> before this still hold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and >> >> >> also IT >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the >> >> >> way he >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement >> >> >> from >> >> >> Kashmir >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and >> we >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a >> >> >> list of >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here >> >> >> that I >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have >> this >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should >> be >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I >> >> >> mean." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does >> >> >> "Chinese >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, >> Kuomintang >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference >> for >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is >> >> >> referring to >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, >> specifically >> >> >> those >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the >> >> >> government >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he >> >> >> would >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal >> critics >> >> >> of >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on >> >> >> record >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the >> government >> >> >> of >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government >> of >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered >> baseless. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced >> >> >> persons' >> >> >> status >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS >> >> >> TONE..." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation >> >> >> that >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at >> the >> >> >> behest of their masters. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from >> the >> >> >> date >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof >> >> >> for >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and >> >> >> scurrilous >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. >> Or, >> >> >> if >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the >> >> >> list >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with >> >> >> immediate >> >> >> effect. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in >> >> >> favour of >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a >> >> >> half) >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in >> >> >> serious >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their >> >> >> rubbish >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the >> benefit >> >> >> of >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially >> when >> >> >> I do >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger >> >> >> need a >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya >> Raj >> >> >> Kaul >> >> >> and their allies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that >> they >> >> >> can >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or >> >> >> conjecture. >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by >> arguments >> >> >> and >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples >> personal >> >> >> lives >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread >> >> >> poison >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There >> have >> >> >> to >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a >> >> >> foreign >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or >> I >> >> >> am >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above >> suggests >> >> >> that I >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a >> statement >> >> >> about >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to >> >> >> settle >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation >> >> >> proves >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. >> The >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign >> power' >> >> >> in >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel >> and >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the >> >> >> grounds >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and >> the >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a >> >> >> person or >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to >> conceal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 18:51:12 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:21:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811100408t39846d08xfab27d563a04851a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498977.23470.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Pawan,        In the present Mahabharata the entire India is with you.   Regards, Dhatri. --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: From: Pawan Durani Subject: Whose Plot is this really ? To: "Sarai" , "we wi" , "rajendra bhat" Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:38 PM Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from the list ?   Is it plot by an extreme leftist ?   Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in the forum but pull the strings ?   Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy fought ?   Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not want us to expose yasin malik ?   Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ?   Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets defeated everytime they make a terrorist a hero ?   Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ?   Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ?   is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ?   Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ?   I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!!   In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a well plotted Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are on my side .   The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this group is still blind ! From debraj.mookerjee at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:19:39 2008 From: debraj.mookerjee at gmail.com (debraj mookerjee) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:19:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: On Obama In-Reply-To: <967785.6010.qm@web25406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <967785.6010.qm@web25406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b402e3c0811100749k7b1c1099v9d3f5711cb4949c0@mail.gmail.com> I endorse what Sabitha has to say. the symbolism behind his election is important. it shows what people want. and that they are really to vote in a man of colour. maybe it will take many obamas to be voted in before the world gets one who everybody likes. but like sabitha says, that is not the point. amartya sen makes a precient point about visceral anti-americanism. things were not always like this. marx praised what the civil war was fought for. some may believe it was fought to consolidate the north's financial interests. big money centres like NY and Chicago Vs the pristine 'pre lapsarian' agrarianism of the south. the southern new critics who invaded yale wanted to recapture through literary studies what they had lost by way of a 'culture' they hugely valued. these theorists were from nashville, tenessee. some might argue these guys had more 'culture' and brains than the big money norrth and the carpet baggers who trooped down south. but does that take away from the symbolic significance of the civil war and what lincoln managed to achieve. to return to sen, who is not against the market but is against the primacy given to capital, we must be willing to cats aside our natural anti-american sentiments and replace them with genuine enquiry and engagement. after all, just in case obama turns out to be at least half the guy that world believes him to be, what harm would it do tot he world? Debraj 2008/11/10 sabitha t p > Dear all, > > I find Vinay Lal's cynicism almost as pointless as Nader's criticism, > although of course one has to be really cautious in one's unqualified > celebration of Obama. There can be cynicism and despair only where there's > been a betrayal of stated positions. Nobody - except some gullible > Americans carried away by the "Yes, We Can" ad-campaign after the economic > meltdown threatening their homes and jobs - thought Obama was ushering in > any change. > > The point of this election probably wasn't "what after Obama?", but whether > the Americans would vote in a black man with a Muslim middle name as > president at all (so what if he's suave and well-educated and is miles ahead > of McCain in every which way). So, now that that question has been answered > and has redeemed the Americans somewhat, the post-election scenario should > not be surprising to us, given that Obama's stated positions through his > campaign have been pro-establishment and did not suggest any changes even > close enough to any radical change in either America's foreign policy or its > corporate capitalism. That Obama is elected to the White House IS the > change, and a long-awaited one. > > The best, > Sabitha. > > > > --- On *Mon, 10/11/08, V Ramaswamy * wrote: > > From: V Ramaswamy > Subject: [Reader-list] On Obama > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, 10 November, 2008, 8:49 AM > > From Economic & Political Weekly, November 1, 2008 > > > The Technician in the Establishment: Obama's America and the World > > by Vinay Lal > > On November 4, Barack Obama will in all likelihood be elected the 44th > president > of the United States. As against the euphoria in the rest of the world about > such a presidency, this article reads into his 2006 book (The Audacity of > Hope) > and his campaign speeches, a different kind of Obama. He emerges as a > technician > who is best equipped to fix broken policies and get America working once > again. > > One can only hope that a US that is once again working does not mean a US > that > is more efficient in its exercise of military domination and even more > successful in projecting its own vision of human affairs as the only road to > the > good life. To believe in Obama, one needs to hope against hope. Barack Obama > is > poised to become the 44th president of the United States. Many see in the > ascendancy of a black man to the highest office of the world's hegemon a > supremely historic moment in American if not world affairs. > > Such is the incalculable hold of the US, in times better or worse, on the > imagination of people worldwide that many are more heavily invested in the > politics and future of the US than they are in the politics of their own > nation. > > There may yet be method to this maddening infatuation, for Iraqis, Afghanis, > and Pakistanis, among many others, known and unknown, the target at some > point > of the military wrath and moral unctuousness of America, may want to reason > if > their chances of being bombed back into the stone age increase or decrease > with > the election of one or the other candidate. The French, perhaps best known > for > the haughty pride in their own culture, were so moved by the events of > September > 11, 2001, which the Americans have attempted to install as a new era in > world > history, rendering 9/11 as something akin to BC or AD, that Le Monde > famously > declared, "Nous sommes tous Americains" (We are all Americans ). One > doubts > that, had it been Beijing, Delhi, or Dakar that had been so bombed, the > French > would have declared, We are All Chinese, Indians, or Senegalese. That old > imperialist habit of presuming the royal We, thinking that the French or > American we is the universal We, has evidently not disappeared. > > Obama vs McCain > There can be little question that Obama's presidency would be much > preferable to > that of McCain. If nothing else, his presidency is not calculated to be an > insult to human intelligence or a complete affront to simple norms of human > decency. After eight years of George W Bush, it seemed all but improbable > that > America could throw up another candidate who is, if not in absolutely > identical > ways, at least as much of an embarrassment to the US as the incumbent of the > White House. But one should never underestimate the genius of America in > throwing up crooks, clowns and charlatans into the cauldron of politics. It > is > likely that McCain has a slightly less convoluted" or should I say jejune > " > view > of world history and geography than Bush, nor is his vocabulary wholly > impoverished, but he will not strike anyone with a discerning mind as > possessed > of a robust intelligence. McCain has already committed so many gaffes, > accusing > (to take one example) Iran of training Al Qaida extremists, that one wonders > whether his much touted "foreign policy experience" amounts to > anything at > all. > > In America, it is enough to have a candidate who understands that Iraq and > Iran > are not only spelled differently but constitute two separate nations. Obama > seems so far ahead of the decorated Vietnam war veteran in these respects > that > it seems pointless to waste any more words on McCain. Obama writes > reasonably > well, and has even been lauded for his skills as an orator; he is suave, > mentally alert, and a keen observer of world affairs. > > Far too many American elections have offered scenarios where a candidate has > been voted into office not on the strength of his intelligence, sound > policies, > or moral judgment, but because the candidate has appeared to be "the > lesser > of > two evils" . The iconoclast Paul Goodman, writing in the 1960s, gave it as > his > considered opinion that American elections were an exercise in helping > Americans > distinguish between undistinguishable Democrats and Republicans, and there > are, > notwithstanding Obama's appeal to liberals and apparently intelligent > people, > genuine questions to be asked about whether this election will be anything > more > than a choice between Tweedledee and Tweedledum. > > Candidates with wholly distinct views have always been described as > "spoilers" > in the American system, and anyone who do not subscribe to the rigidly > corporatist outlook of the two major parties can only expect ridicule, > opprobrium, and at best colossal neglect. To this extent, whatever > America's > pretensions at being a model democracy for the rest of the world, one can > marvel > at the ease and brilliance with which dissenters are marginalised in the US. > The > singularity of American democracy resides in the fact that it is, insofar as > democracies are in question, at once both perversely primitive and advanced. > In > its totalitarian sweep over the political landscape, the one-party system, > which > through the fiction of two parties has swept all dissent " indeed, I > should > say > all thought " under the rug, has shown itself utterly incapable of > accommodating > political views outside its fold; and precisely for this reason American > democracy displays nearly all the visible signs of stability, > accountability, > and public engagement, retaining in its rudiments the same features it has > had > over the last two centuries. > > A New Obama after the Election? > > Obama's most ardent defenders have adopted the predictably disingenuous > view > that Candidate Obama has had to repress most of his liberal sentiments to > appeal > to a wide electorate, and that president Obama will be much less > "centrist" > in > his execution of domestic and foreign policies. (The US is one country where > most hawks, particularly if they are "distinguished" senior > statesmen, can > easily pass themselves off as "centrists", the word "hawk" > being reserved > for > certified lunatics such as Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, or blatantly > aggressive policymakers such as Paul Wolfowitz. No one would describe Colin > Powell, who shares as much responsibility as anyone else for waging a > criminal > war on Iraq, as a hawk.) Of course much the same view was advanced apropos > Bill > Clinton, who then went on to wreck the labour movement, cut food stamps, > initiate welfare "reform" that further eroded the entitlements of the > poor, > and > launch aggressive military strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Kosovo, > and a > host of other places. Moreover, unless one is to take the view that Obama > thought of his candidacy overnight, it is equally reasonable to argue that, > knowing how much he would have to appeal to the rank and file of not only > Democrats but the large number of "undecided" voters as a candidate > who > would be > markedly different from both the incumbent and the Republicans running for > the > presidency, Obama has been projecting himself as far more liberal than > either > his political record or views would give warrant to believe. Indeed, as a > close > perusal of his writings, speeches, and voting record suggests, Obama is as > consummate a politician as any in the US, and he has been priming himself as > a > presidential candidate for many years. > > Entry to the Obama World View Obama's 2006 book,The Audacity of Hope (New > York, > Crown Publishers), furnishes as good an entry point into his world view as > any. > Its subtitle, "Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream", provides > the link > to > Obama's memoir of 1995, Dreams of My Father (1995). People everywhere have > dreams, no doubt, but there is nothing quite as magisterial as "the > American > dream": the precise substance of the American dream " a home with a > backyard, > mom's apple pie, kids riding their bikes without a care in the world, a > cute > dog > running around in circles after the kids, ice tea, a Chevrolet or SUV " > matters > less than the fact that "the American dream" signifies something > grand and > unique in the affairs of humankind. A politician who does not profess belief > in > the American > dream is doomed, but there is no insincerity on Obama's part in this > respect. > Leaving aside the question of how the American dream has been a nightmare to > many of the most thoughtful Americans themselves, from Henry David Thoreau > to > James Baldwin, not to mention tens of millions of people elsewhere, Obama's > fondness for what Americans call "feelgood" language is palpably > evident. > Just > what does the audacity of hope mean? Need one be audacious to hope? Obama's > pronouncements are littered with the language of hope, change, values, > dreams, > all only a slight improvement on chicken soup for dummies or chocolate for > the > soul. The chapter entitled ‘The World Beyond Our Borders', some will > object, > is illustrative of Obama's engagement with substantive issues, and in this > case > suggestive of his grasp over foreign affairs. One of the stories that > circulated > widely about Bush upon his election to the presidency in 2000 was that he > carried an expired passport; a variant of the story says that Bush did not > at > that time own a US passport. It is immaterial whether the story is > apocryphal: > so colossal was Bush's ignorance of the world that it is entirely plausible > that > he had never travelled beyond Canada and Mexico, though I am tempted to say > that > illegal aliens and men born to power, transgressors of borders alike, share > more > than we commonly imagine. Obama, by contrast, came to know of the wider > world in > his childhood: his white American mother was married to a Kenyan before her > second marriage to an Indonesian. > > Obama lived in Jakarta as a young boy, and the chapter offers a discussion > of > the purges under Suharto that led to the extermination of close to a million > communists and their sympathisers. Obama is brave enough to acknowledge that > many of the Indonesian military leaders had been trained in the US, and that > the > Central Intelligence Agency provided "covert support" to the > insurrectionists > who sought to remove the nationalist Sukarno and place Indonesia squarely in > the > American camp (pp 272-73). He charts Indonesia's spectacular economic > progress, > but also concedes that "Suharto's rule was harshly repressive". > The press > was > stifled, elections were a "mere formality", prisons were filled up > with > political dissidents, and in commentary november 1, 2008 EPW Economic & P > 16 > olitical Weekly areas wracked by secessionist movements rebels and civilians > alike faced swift and merciless retribution " "and all this was done > with > the > knowledge, if not outright approval, of US administrations" (p 276). It is > doubtful that most American politicians would have made even as mild an > admission of American complicity in atrocities as has Obama. But a supremely > realist framework allows for evasion as much as confession: thus Obama > merely > arrives at the reading that the American record overseas is a "mixed" > one > "across the globe" , often characterised by far-sightedness and > altruism > even if > American policies have at times been "misguided, based on false > assumptions" > that have undermined American credibility and the genuine aspirations of > others > (p 280). There is, in plain language, both good and bad in this world; and > Obama > avers that the US, with all its limitations, has largely been a force for > good. > And since America remains the standard by which phenomena are to be > evaluated, > Obama betrays his own parochialism. > > The war in Vietnam, writes Obama, bequeathed "disastrous > consequences": > American > credibility and prestige took a dive, the armed forces experienced a loss of > morale, the American soldier needlessly suffered, and above all "the bond > of > trust between the American people and their government" was broken. Though > two > million or more Vietnamese were killed, and fertile land was rendered toxic > for > generations, no mention is made of this genocide: always the focus is on > what > the war did to America (p 287). The war in Vietnam chastened Americans, who > "began to realise that the best and the brightest in Washington didn't > always > know what they were doing " and didn't always tell the truth" (p > 287). One > wonders why, then, an overwhelming majority of Americans supported the Gulf > war > of 1991 and the attack on Afghanistan, and why even the invasion of Iraq in > 2002 > had far more popular support in the US than it did in Europe or elsewhere > around > the world. The suggestion that the American people were once led astray but > are > fundamentally sound in their judgment ignores the consideration that elected > officials are only as good as the people to whom they respond, besides > hastening > to exculpate ordinary Americans from their share of the responsibility for > the > egregious crimes that the US has committed overseas and against some of its > own > people. > > Good Wars, Bad Wars? > > Obama has on more than one occasion said, "I'm not against all wars, > I'm > just > against dumb wars." More elegant thinkers than Obama, living in perhaps > more > thoughtful times, have used different language to justify war: there is the > Christian doctrine of a just war, and similarly 20th century politicians and > theorists, watching Germany under Hitler rearm itself and set the stage for > the > extermination of the Jewish people, reasoned that one could make a > legitimate > distinction between "good" and "bad" wars. Obama has > something like the > latter > in mind: he was an early critic of the invasion of Iraq, though here again > more > on pragmatic grounds rather than from any sense of moral anguish, but like > most > liberals he gave his whole-hearted support to the bombing of Afghanistan in > the > hope, to use Bush's language, that Osama bin Laden could be smoked out and > the > Taliban reduced to smithereens. > > Obama is so far committed to the idea of Afghanistan as a "good" war > that he > has > pledged that, if elected president, he would escalate the conflict there and > also bomb Pakistan if it would help him prosecute the "war on > terror". He > has > recently attacked McCain, who no one would mistake for a pacifist, with the > observation that his opponent "won't even follow [bin Laden] to his > cave in > Afghanistan" , even as the US defence secretary has all but conceded that > a > political accommodation with the Taliban, whose support of bin Laden was the > very justification for the bombing of Afghanistan, can no longer be avoided. > The > casually held assumption that by birthright an American president can bomb > other > countries into abject submission, or that the US can never be stripped of > its > prerogative to chastise nations that fail to do its bidding, takes one's > breath > away. No one should suppose that Obama, blinded by the sharp rhetoric of the > "war on terror" , has positions on Iraq and > Afghanistan that are not characteristic of his view of the world as a whole. > "We > need to maintain a strategic force posture", he writes, "that allows > us to > manage threats posed by rogue nations like North Korea and Iran and to meet > the > challenges presented by potential rivals like China" (p 307). This could > have > been the voice of Reagan, the Clintons, Bush, McCain, and countless others: > there is such overwhelming unanimity about "rogue states" that almost > no > politician in the US can be expected to display even an iota of independent > thinking. > > No Change from Staus Quo > > On the question of Palestine, Obama has similarly displayed belligerence and > moral turpitude. At the annual meeting in June 2008 of the American Israel > Political Action Committee, a self-avowedly Zionist organisation that > commands > unstinting support from across the entire American political spectrum, Obama > was > unambiguous in declaring that "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel > and > it must remain undivided". It would only be belabouring the obvi.ous to > state > that, on nearly every foreign policy issue that one can think of, with the > exception of a timetable for withdrawal of American troops from Iraq, > Obama's > position can scarcely be distinguished from all the other advocates of the > national security state. There can be no gainsaying the fact that Obama's > election as president of the US will appreciably alter American debates on > race. > African-Americans make up 12 > per cent of the population but constitute nearly half of the US prison > population; one of three black males will, in his lifetime, have gone > through > the criminal justice system. African-Americans are, alongside Puerto Ricans, > two > ethnic groups among whom poverty is endemic, and repeated studies have shown > that in every critical sector of life, such as access to jobs, housing, and > healthcare, blacks face persistent racism and discrimination. Obama is fully > cognisant of these problems and is likely to address them to a greater > extent > than any other candidate. But one can also argue, with equal plausibility, > that > his ascendancy will strengthen the hands of those who want to think of > American > democracy as a post-race society, and whose instant inclination is to > jettison > affirmative action and reduce the already narrow space for discussions of > race > in civil society. > > It is immaterial, even if fascinating to some, whether numerous white people > will vote for Obama to prove their credentials as non-racists, while others > will > give him their vote because he is not all that black " just as some black > people > will surely cast their ballot for Obama precisely because he is black. By > far > the most critical consideration is that the US requires a radical > redistribution > of economic and political power: Martin Luther King Jr had come to an > awareness > of this in the last years of his life, but there is little to suggest that > Obama, a professional politician to the core, has similarly seen the light. > Establishment Candidate In these deeply troubled times, when there is much > casual talk of the American ship sinking, the white ruling class is > preparing to > turn over the keys of the kingdom to a black man. Imperial powers had a > knack > for doing this, but let us leave that history aside. Here, at least, Obama > appears to have displayed audacity, taking on a challenge that many others > might > have forsworn. > > However, nothing is as it seems to be: with the passage of time, Obama has > increasingly justified the confidence reposed in him as an establishment > candidate. A man with some degree of moral conscience would not only have > shrugged off the endorsements of Colin Powell and Scott McClellan, until > recently among Bush's grandstanding cheerleaders and apparatchiks, but > would > have insisted that Powell and others of his ilk be brought to justice for > crimes > against the Iraqi people. But Obama will do no such thing, for after all > Powell > and the master he served, like Kissinger and Nixon before them, only made > "tactical" errors. Obama prides himself, moreover, on being a healer > not > divider: he will even rejoice in the support for him among previously > hardcore > Republicans (www.republicansforobama.org). > > When Obama is not speaking about values, hope, and change, he presents > himself > as a manager, representing brutal American adventurism in Iraq and > Afghanistan > as illustrations of policies that went wrong. He comes forward as a > technician > who is best equipped to fix broken policies, repair the system, and get > America > working once again. One can only hope that an America that is once again > working > does not mean for a good portion of the rest of the world what it has meant > for > a long time, namely, an America that is more efficient in its exercise of > military domination and even more successful in projecting its own vision of > human affairs as the only road to the good life. To believe in Obama, one > needs > to hope against hope. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! -- LD-74 Pitam Pura New Delhi - 110088 9312433663 011-64562182 011-27317767 From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Nov 10 15:26:47 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:26:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=E2=80=99s_?= =?utf-8?q?Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30811100156v3856c1fcqb8515b5e97265e99@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf, Many thanks for posting this. Naeem Mohaiemen had also posted a link to this story two days ago. I find it very interesting that it is not just Hindu fanatics but Muslim ones too whom Husain has managed to 'offend'. > But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the artist, a symbol of > nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his fellow Muslims. When both A and B hate C, it is the best possible evidence of C's non-partisanship. There could not be a better answer to the charge of Husain's 3 paintings being 'anti-Hindu'. I also find it interesting that he is "a Shiite subsect that calls itself Suleimanis". That makes him a 'minority within a minority within a minority'. What an irony that he should be made out to be a Hindu-hating "Muslim" "fundamentalist". best shivam On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Yousuf wrote: > > An Artist in Exile Tests India's Democratic Ideals > > By SOMINI SENGUPTA > New York Times, November 8, 2008 > > DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Maqbool Fida Husain, India's most famous painter, is afraid to go home. > > Mr. Husain is a Muslim who is fond of painting Hindu goddesses, sometimes portraying them nude. That obsession has earned him the ire of a small but organized cadre of Hindu nationalists. They have attacked galleries that exhibit his work, accused him in court of "promoting enmity" among faiths and, on one occasion, offered an $11 million reward for his head. > > In September, the country's highest court offered him an unexpected reprieve, dismissing one of the cases against him with the blunt reminder that Hindu iconography, including ancient temples, is replete with nudity. Still, the artist, 93 and increasingly frail, is not taking any chances. For two years, he has lived here in self-imposed exile, amid opulently sterile skyscrapers. He intends to remain, at least for now. "They can put me in a jungle," Mr. Husain said gamely. "Still, I can create." > > Freedom of expression has frequently, and by some accounts, increasingly, come under fire in India, as the country tries to balance the dictates of its secular democracy with the easily inflamed religious and ethnic passions of its multitudes. > > The result is a strange anomaly in a nation known for its vibrant, freewheeling political culture. The government is compelled to ensure respect for India's diversity and at the same time prevent one group from pouncing on another for a perceived offense. Ramachandra Guha, a historian, calls it "perhaps the fundamental challenge of governance in India." > > The rise of an intense brand of identity politics, with India's many communities mobilizing for political power, has intensified the problem. An accusation that a piece of art or writing is offensive is an easy way to whip up the sentiments of a particular caste, faith or tribe, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an Indian political scientist, points out. He calls it "offense mongering." > > There have been isolated episodes of violence, and many more threats, often prompting the government to invoke British-era laws that allow it to ban works of art and literature. India was among the first countries to ban Salman Rushdie's novel "The Satanic Verses." > > In March, Taslima Nasreen, a Bangladeshi novelist living in exile in the Communist-controlled state of West Bengal, was forced to leave for several months after a Muslim political party objected to her work. > > Meanwhile, in the western state of Gujarat, controlled by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, a political psychologist, Ashis Nandy, was charged with "promoting enmity between different groups." His offense was to write an opinion article in The Times of India criticizing the victory of the Hindu nationalists in state elections; the case is pending. > > "That politics has gotten out of hand," Mr. Mehta, the political scientist, argued. "It puts liberal democracy at risk. If we want social stability we need a consensus on what our freedoms are." > > Even threats of violence from offended parties are a powerful deterrent. In Mumbai, formerly Bombay, where Mr. Husain lived for most of his life, a recent exhibition on Indian masters did not include his work. Nor did India's first modern art fair, held in New Delhi in August. The same week in the same city, a small show featuring reproductions of Mr. Husain's work was vandalized. > > Of Mr. Husain's exceptionally large body of work — at least 20,000 pieces, he guesses — there are three that have angered his foes. Two are highly stylized pencil drawings of Durga, the mother goddess, and Saraswati, the goddess of the arts, both faceless and nude. The third is a map of India rendered as a female nude, her head in the Himalayas, a breast jutting out into the Arabian Sea. Mr. Husain insists that nudity symbolizes purity. He has repeatedly said that he had not meant to offend any faith. But one of his paintings, showing a donkey — to the artist, a symbol of nonviolence — at Mecca, created a ruckus among his fellow Muslims. > > Harsh Goenka, a Mumbai-based industrialist and one of the country's most important collectors, has a similar Husain nude, an oil painting of the goddess Saraswati. As "an average normal Hindu," he says he is appalled that Mr. Husain is not safe in his country. > > "Keeping him away is, in a way, showing the weakness of the system, that we cannot protect the rights of the citizen," Mr. Goenka said. "If he has done a crime, punish him. If he hasn't, let him live here with dignity and peace of mind." > > Mr. Husain calls the current Congress Party-led government too weak-kneed to offer him protection from those who might harm him. Mostly, though, he cautions against making too much of his case. India, he insists, is fundamentally "tolerant." > > Not least, he said, he has always been a vagabond, sleeping on the Mumbai streets during his impoverished youth, wandering through Europe to study Rembrandt, or bouncing, as he does now, among several lavish apartments and villas here in Dubai — or rather, cruising among them, in one of his five costly thrill machines, including a lipstick-red Ferrari, his current favorite. Mr. Husain is India's best-paid artist. Last March, at a Christie's auction, his "Battle of Ganga and Jamuna," part of a 27-canvas series on the Mahabharata, the Hindu epic, fetched $1.6 million. > > "I am working, it's O.K.," he said. "If things get all right, I'll go. If they don't, so be it. What can I do?" > > And then he quoted the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, a Pakistani who went into exile in the late 1970s during President Muhammad Zia ul-Haq's regime and who wrote about missing the animosity of his enemies as much as the affection of friends. "Of course," he conceded, "the heart is there." > > On the morning of Id al-Fitr, Islam's holiest day, Mr. Husain sat in the back seat of his Bentley as it whizzed past a row of construction sites, taking calls from Mumbai on his new iPhone. > > Back home on the same day, his granddaughter Rakshanda was getting engaged. It was the first major family function he had missed since his exile. "Such an auspicious day," he murmured. "Anyway, we will have a ceremony here again." > > In Mumbai, it had been his custom to host an annual Id al-Fitr breakfast for his community, a Shiite subsect that calls itself Suleimanis. This morning, he hosted one here, too, at a community hall with steaming plates of mutton and flatbread. A stream of people came to pay their respects, taking his gnarled right hand, placing it above their eyes, one after the other, then to their lips. Mr. Husain, a master of flamboyance, stood beaming in a green silk jacket embroidered with motifs from his paintings, including several voluptuous, scantily clad women. > > He is now working on two ambitious series: one on Indian civilization, to be mounted in London, the second on Arab civilization, which will be exhibited in Qatar. > > Here in Dubai, he is at work on a whimsical installation titled "Form Meets Function," which will incorporate his five luxury cars, including a sound piece he intends to create using their engines. > > At sundown, he climbed into the passenger seat of the Ferrari, pounded the dashboard and instructed his driver to hit the gas pedal. The engine revved, and he squealed in delight. He said he had stopped driving several years ago, after cataract surgery. > > He does not have a studio in Dubai. There are easels in each of the homes he has bought for his extended clan. He spends a night here, a night there. > > One of them is an 11th-floor apartment with spectacular, south-facing views of jagged skyscrapers under construction. It is filled with dozens of small canvases from the 1950s that he had given to a Czech woman he had once intended to marry, though she turned him down. > > She found him recently and returned his paintings. "They belong to India," she told him. > > This afternoon, recalling the story, Mr. Husain said he would eventually have to take them home. "Temporarily," he mused, "they are here." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/world/asia/09india.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 23:13:03 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:13:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <041D4257-668E-460E-A3EA-A1A696781CBF@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70811092240o457855b2y7b01325ba77519f6@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811092305i41e03136rf009cb07b000153b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811092356m2e00444bhb82cd1cc9b7ddc9d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100022k254bb00bl677d1b9d7832083d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100059o7e75e183j36ca3fd5868f7671@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811100103t263a15bej444d202a7654bcc8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70811100113t2ba83002q90bdf9ffef7b9d1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811100943r20be4246id7217691b90aa9c7@mail.gmail.com> Why not ask for proof from Inder Salim, Shivam Vij, Shuddha and Aarti ? Or, do they satisfy your set rules of discrimination. My response in the past has been on various provocations by list members against Kashmiri Pandits or some other related issue. I will continue to object where ever I feel the need whenever, let me assure at least this much. If you want to continue with Sarai, without me, do that, but this sets a wrong example of a biased, discriminatory and castiest forum. If you agree with it, remove me. Truth won't change, it will continue to taste bitter to you all (few list members) who have initiated this tirade against me. I honestly don't care. My work, campaigns, awareness drive, struggle will continue anyway. Sarai can't kill me forever. They can just silence me from this small forum. There have been occasions when my group and myself have been accused of being 'terrorists', 'fundamentalists', 'extremists'.....there are hundred more such allegations...!! If you can't digest the opposite opinion, you easily abuse and malign a person. This is what has been happening. I don't care about Shuddha's one day time or any such thing. Who is Shuddha to suggest us what to do ? I've been clear from the very first day of my membership on this forum. My campaigns have been open, and not filled with any hidden agenda (like most communists aka communalists) have. The S.A.R. Geelani protest by Delhi University Students Union (DUSU) which sparked of this debate, was justified completely. Geelani has no business to speak on so called 'Hindu Terrorism' and incite communal passion in Delhi University Students. He is a language faculty member, and should stick to his job. Most people know why some 'vested interests' under his leadership are creating tension and raising finger on the Batla House Encounter. Martyred cop Inspector M.C. Sharma was the investigation officer in the case of Geelani. Rest all is clear. I need not answer any more doubts. Also, do visit - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Thanks On 11/10/08, Fatima फ़ातिमा wrote: > > Dear Sarai Moderator, > > While I respect and sympathize with the cause of Kashmiri pandits (as > much as I cry for the plight of Kashmiri Muslims), I would love to see > a healthier Sarai list with more respect, tolerance, and patience from > every one. I fully support freedom of expression, but I have no room > for any kind of personal attacks and insults. > > I support the removal of these people who were asked to provide a > proof of their accusations but have failed to do so. > > regrds > > > Fatima > > > > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Lal Salaam Aarti, > > > > You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write > > just *anything*. > > > > Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only > > voice of Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and > for > > a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside > > India would have their support structures. > > > > if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other > world. > > And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem. > > > > I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology. > > > > Pawan > > PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic > > group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would > > have been right to object. > > > > > > > > On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> > >> Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are > things > >> I > >> am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not > going > >> to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said > >> about > >> you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh? > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > >>> lal Salaam,, > >>> > >>> Arti, > >>> > >>> Are u a moderator ? > >>> > >>> pawan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >>> > >>>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first > encounter > >>>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our > >>>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have > nothing > >>>> but > >>>> bleats to offer. > >>>> > >>>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. > If > >>>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have > demanded > >>>> it > >>>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on > separate > >>>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha > not > >>>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology > as > >>>> well. > >>>> > >>>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. > >>>> The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you > put > >>>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not > >>>> the > >>>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) > >>>> where > >>>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is. > >>>> > >>>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless > allegations > >>>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask > >>>> yourself > >>>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, > >>>> rather > >>>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice. > >>>> > >>>> Warm regards > >>>> (as it seems for the last time) > >>>> > >>>> Aarti > >>>> > >>>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any > >>>> private communications with you at all. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Lastly, > >>>>> > >>>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology > >>>>> which > >>>>> I can understand. > >>>>> > >>>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I > have > >>>>> a > >>>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any > >>>>> member. > >>>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or > ?? > >>>>> ] > >>>>> > >>>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few. > >>>>> > >>>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest > >>>>> the > >>>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than > >>>>> double > >>>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving > in > >>>>> my > >>>>> ideology. > >>>>> > >>>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can > >>>>> understand > >>>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not > believe > >>>>> in > >>>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide > ........If > >>>>> i > >>>>> am > >>>>> really a hurdle. > >>>>> > >>>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron. > >>>>> > >>>>> regards > >>>>> > >>>>> Pawan Durani > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Kirdar, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What > >>>>> > makes > >>>>> him > >>>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of > >>>>> this > >>>>> > group. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont > >>>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt > >>>>> have one. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Pawan > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Dear Pawan > >>>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again > and > >>>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri > >>>>> >> pundits > >>>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of > >>>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would > >>>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by > >>>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns > >>>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on > terror" > >>>>> - > >>>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise > >>>>> >> concerns > >>>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri > >>>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all > >>>>> >> Muslims > >>>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression > that > >>>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are > >>>>> >> simply > >>>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be > happy > >>>>> >> about the plight of KPs. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" > and > >>>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the > >>>>> >> clock > >>>>> >> is ticking. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Kirdar > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani < > >>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> > >>>>> >> wrote: > >>>>> >> > Dear Kirdar, > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they > >>>>> come > >>>>> >> from . > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the > >>>>> >> > supporters > >>>>> of > >>>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one > >>>>> >> > ,.......unless > >>>>> he > >>>>> >> > considers himself one. > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted > on > >>>>> >> Geelani > >>>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i > >>>>> write > >>>>> >> that > >>>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being > >>>>> >> investigated.What > >>>>> >> > makes the two different ? > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of > >>>>> certain > >>>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it > >>>>> >> > happens > >>>>> in > >>>>> >> all > >>>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, > unless > >>>>> he co > >>>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of > members > >>>>> and > >>>>> >> non > >>>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ? > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there > surrogates > >>>>> just > >>>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust > >>>>> anyone > >>>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few > on > >>>>> this > >>>>> >> list > >>>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are > >>>>> >> > surrogate > >>>>> >> ..... > >>>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does > see > >>>>> >> himself > >>>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation..... > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv > >>>>> Sena , > >>>>> >> Panun > >>>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything > >>>>> wrong > >>>>> >> with > >>>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these > organisations. > >>>>> >> However i > >>>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one > >>>>> >> > of > >>>>> the > >>>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its > >>>>> member > >>>>> >> as we > >>>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for > >>>>> advise. > >>>>> >> But > >>>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with > anyone > >>>>> of > >>>>> >> these. > >>>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against > >>>>> >> > all > >>>>> >> odds. > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two > >>>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri > >>>>> pandits > >>>>> >> world > >>>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to > >>>>> scuttle > >>>>> >> the > >>>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no > reasons > >>>>> >> > ? > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with > >>>>> Chinese > >>>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why > >>>>> does it > >>>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers > >>>>> >> > himself > >>>>> a > >>>>> >> > supporter of that ? > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate > >>>>> >> > freedom > >>>>> is > >>>>> >> to > >>>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has > >>>>> >> undergone > >>>>> >> > Exodus and genocide. > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am > here. > >>>>> >> > I > >>>>> >> myself > >>>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word > >>>>> and > >>>>> >> what > >>>>> >> > not to word. > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not > >>>>> challenge > >>>>> >> a > >>>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should > Shuddha > >>>>> and > >>>>> >> > others be removed. > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully > , > >>>>> so > >>>>> >> they do > >>>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate ! > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i company of Shuddha. > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > Regards > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > Pawan Durani > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar wrote: > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> Dear Pawan > >>>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a > >>>>> >> >> specific > >>>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of > >>>>> foreign > >>>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to > support > >>>>> such > >>>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. > I > >>>>> think > >>>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - > half > >>>>> that > >>>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or > you > >>>>> are > >>>>> >> >> gone. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point > >>>>> >> >> rather > >>>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. > I > >>>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, > >>>>> please > >>>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations > >>>>> you > >>>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. > >>>>> Maybe > >>>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a > school > >>>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> Kirdar > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani < > >>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> wrote: > >>>>> >> >> > Dear All, > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate > Freedom,remain > >>>>> >> exposed. > >>>>> >> >> > The > >>>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others > like > >>>>> me , > >>>>> >> >> > Aditya , > >>>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir > are > >>>>> >> nothing > >>>>> >> >> > but > >>>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , > >>>>> >> >> > Inder > >>>>> , > >>>>> >> >> > Shivam > >>>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > Pawan > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Dear All, > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late > on > >>>>> our > >>>>> >> list, > >>>>> >> >> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. > >>>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it > >>>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun > >>>>> Kashmir' > >>>>> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when > faced > >>>>> with > >>>>> >> >> >> detailed > >>>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their > >>>>> 'case', > >>>>> >> >> >> habitually > >>>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express > >>>>> their > >>>>> >> >> >> desires to > >>>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram > Sena > >>>>> goon > >>>>> >> >> >> allies > >>>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak > at > >>>>> the > >>>>> >> >> >> university. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on > in > >>>>> this > >>>>> >> >> >> list, > >>>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals > >>>>> >> associated > >>>>> >> >> >> with > >>>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of > >>>>> >> >> >> insinuations > >>>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from > >>>>> Aditya Raj > >>>>> >> >> >> Kaul) > >>>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK > >>>>> gospel or > >>>>> >> >> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must > be > >>>>> doing > >>>>> >> so > >>>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their > 'foreign > >>>>> >> masters' > >>>>> >> >> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their > >>>>> ethical > >>>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of > >>>>> these > >>>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled > >>>>> >> position > >>>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing > >>>>> >> >> >> to > >>>>> >> account > >>>>> >> >> >> for > >>>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us > of > >>>>> being > >>>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary > gain. > >>>>> So, > >>>>> >> >> >> 'writers' > >>>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a > >>>>> paid > >>>>> >> agent, > >>>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that > was > >>>>> made > >>>>> >> when > >>>>> >> >> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay > >>>>> >> >> >> Kak's > >>>>> >> >> >> propoganda > >>>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because > >>>>> >> >> >> they > >>>>> are > >>>>> >> >> >> being > >>>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or > >>>>> their > >>>>> >> >> >> local > >>>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the > >>>>> foreign > >>>>> >> >> >> hand' > >>>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that > >>>>> Indian > >>>>> >> >> >> politicians > >>>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else > >>>>> fails. It > >>>>> >> is > >>>>> >> >> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect > >>>>> with > >>>>> >> >> >> reality and > >>>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to > >>>>> hide but > >>>>> >> >> >> fails > >>>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia > >>>>> Jabbar > >>>>> >> on > >>>>> >> >> >> to > >>>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. > >>>>> Durani > >>>>> >> >> >> keeps, > >>>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots > >>>>> >> >> >> in > >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir' > >>>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to > >>>>> write > >>>>> >> for > >>>>> >> >> >> their > >>>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only > one > >>>>> that > >>>>> >> >> >> these > >>>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they > seem > >>>>> to be > >>>>> >> >> >> doing > >>>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of > being > >>>>> >> beholden > >>>>> >> >> >> to. > >>>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers > >>>>> admitting > >>>>> >> to > >>>>> >> >> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries > as > >>>>> their > >>>>> >> own > >>>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who > >>>>> doesn't > >>>>> >> >> >> agree > >>>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific > >>>>> occasions > >>>>> >> when > >>>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK > >>>>> hard > >>>>> >> line > >>>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, > >>>>> Aarti > >>>>> >> has > >>>>> >> >> >> been > >>>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been > >>>>> accused > >>>>> >> of > >>>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two > >>>>> specific > >>>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have > been > >>>>> called > >>>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not > >>>>> take > >>>>> >> this > >>>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made > >>>>> casually > >>>>> >> >> >> either. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are > >>>>> >> >> >> writing > >>>>> what > >>>>> >> we > >>>>> >> >> >> are > >>>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power' or > >>>>> 'terrorist' is > >>>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am > >>>>> willing > >>>>> >> to > >>>>> >> >> >> take > >>>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my > >>>>> bank > >>>>> >> >> >> accounts > >>>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani > >>>>> should > >>>>> >> think > >>>>> >> >> >> that > >>>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for > >>>>> purchase > >>>>> >> at > >>>>> >> >> >> such > >>>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a > >>>>> hired > >>>>> >> hack > >>>>> >> >> >> who > >>>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but for the sake of crumbs and > >>>>> >> leavings > >>>>> >> >> >> from > >>>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. > No > >>>>> one is > >>>>> >> >> >> paid by > >>>>> >> >> >> the hosts or the administrator of the list to write > anything. > >>>>> No > >>>>> >> >> >> payments > >>>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of > >>>>> writing > >>>>> >> >> >> either. > >>>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include > >>>>> writing on > >>>>> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> Reader List either. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader > list, > >>>>> to > >>>>> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> Sarai > >>>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and > >>>>> >> >> >> my > >>>>> >> >> >> professional > >>>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, > >>>>> >> especially > >>>>> >> >> >> as > >>>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been > >>>>> willing > >>>>> >> to > >>>>> >> >> >> ignore > >>>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not > >>>>> >> >> >> been > >>>>> >> thrown > >>>>> >> >> >> in > >>>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two > >>>>> weeks, > >>>>> >> then > >>>>> >> >> >> we > >>>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do > not > >>>>> think > >>>>> >> >> >> deserves > >>>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged > each > >>>>> quote > >>>>> >> >> >> with > >>>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it > >>>>> >> >> >> is > >>>>> >> taken, > >>>>> >> >> >> so > >>>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My > >>>>> >> >> >> comments > >>>>> >> follow > >>>>> >> >> >> each > >>>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been > >>>>> >> capitalized > >>>>> >> >> >> for > >>>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine). > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> -------------------------- > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 1. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A > >>>>> FOREIGN > >>>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY , > >>>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created > a > >>>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , > >>>>> Parlaiment > >>>>> >> case > >>>>> >> >> >> are > >>>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and > >>>>> their > >>>>> >> links > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will > >>>>> >> >> >> come > >>>>> out > >>>>> >> >> >> soon..." > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following - > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter > and > >>>>> the > >>>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated > effort > >>>>> backed > >>>>> >> by > >>>>> >> >> >> a > >>>>> >> >> >> foreign country' > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are > >>>>> being > >>>>> >> >> >> ascertained' > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon... > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with > >>>>> >> >> >> details > >>>>> of > >>>>> >> how > >>>>> >> >> >> he > >>>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) > >>>>> >> >> >> above, > >>>>> or > >>>>> >> >> >> stand > >>>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign > the > >>>>> >> character > >>>>> >> >> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would > like > >>>>> to > >>>>> >> know > >>>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought > not > >>>>> to > >>>>> >> count > >>>>> >> >> >> as > >>>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ? > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 2. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A > >>>>> >> >> >> FULL > >>>>> TIME > >>>>> >> >> >> JOB > >>>>> >> >> >> FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am > >>>>> neither > >>>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the > >>>>> Reader > >>>>> >> List > >>>>> >> >> >> on any > >>>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, > I > >>>>> want > >>>>> >> to > >>>>> >> >> >> know > >>>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the > >>>>> Reader > >>>>> >> List > >>>>> >> >> >> is a > >>>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot > >>>>> >> substantiate > >>>>> >> >> >> this, > >>>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I > say > >>>>> what I > >>>>> >> >> >> do, or > >>>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid > >>>>> for > >>>>> >> this. > >>>>> >> >> >> In > >>>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot > >>>>> >> >> >> substantiate > >>>>> this > >>>>> >> >> >> charge, > >>>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from > >>>>> this > >>>>> >> list, > >>>>> >> >> >> or > >>>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis? > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 3. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >>>>> Displacement > >>>>> >> >> >> from > >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A > UNPAID > >>>>> JOB, > >>>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE > >>>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir > and > >>>>> >> support > >>>>> >> >> >> their > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..." > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it > implies, > >>>>> from > >>>>> >> >> >> reading > >>>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' > >>>>> (again > >>>>> >> >> >> because > >>>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have > >>>>> asked > >>>>> >> >> >> immediately > >>>>> >> >> >> before this still hold. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 4. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >>>>> Displacement > >>>>> >> >> >> from > >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long > >>>>> >> >> >> mail, > >>>>> and > >>>>> >> >> >> also IT > >>>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB." > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to > write > >>>>> in the > >>>>> >> >> >> way he > >>>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question > holds > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 5. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > >>>>> Displacement > >>>>> >> >> >> from > >>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS > >>>>> >> >> >> MASTERS > >>>>> and > >>>>> >> we > >>>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..." > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts > >>>>> >> >> >> to > >>>>> me > >>>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani > >>>>> have a > >>>>> >> >> >> list of > >>>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or any proof for the allegation that he is > >>>>> >> >> >> making > >>>>> here > >>>>> >> >> >> that I > >>>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does > not > >>>>> have > >>>>> >> this > >>>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he > >>>>> should > >>>>> >> be > >>>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 6. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally > >>>>> >> >> >> displaced > >>>>> >> >> >> persons' > >>>>> >> >> >> status > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You > know > >>>>> what I > >>>>> >> >> >> mean." > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not > >>>>> >> >> >> agree > >>>>> with > >>>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What > >>>>> does > >>>>> >> >> >> "Chinese > >>>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, > >>>>> >> Kuomintang > >>>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural > >>>>> preference > >>>>> >> for > >>>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine? > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong) that Pawan > is > >>>>> >> >> >> referring to > >>>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, > >>>>> >> specifically > >>>>> >> >> >> those > >>>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and > >>>>> the > >>>>> >> >> >> government > >>>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the > >>>>> >> >> >> people > >>>>> he > >>>>> >> >> >> would > >>>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been > vocal > >>>>> >> critics > >>>>> >> >> >> of > >>>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the > >>>>> >> government > >>>>> >> >> >> of > >>>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact > >>>>> gone on > >>>>> >> >> >> record > >>>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the > >>>>> >> government > >>>>> >> >> >> of > >>>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the > >>>>> Government > >>>>> >> of > >>>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in > Kashmir. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered > >>>>> >> baseless. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 7. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally > >>>>> >> >> >> displaced > >>>>> >> >> >> persons' > >>>>> >> >> >> status > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR > >>>>> MASTERS > >>>>> >> >> >> TONE..." > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's > >>>>> insinuation > >>>>> >> >> >> that > >>>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who > >>>>> act at > >>>>> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> ----------------- > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008 > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul) > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN > MALIK > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> __________________________ > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day > >>>>> (from > >>>>> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> date > >>>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, > substantiatable > >>>>> proof > >>>>> >> >> >> for > >>>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory > and > >>>>> >> >> >> scurrilous > >>>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one > >>>>> day. > >>>>> >> Or, > >>>>> >> >> >> if > >>>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, > >>>>> motivated and > >>>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would > request > >>>>> the > >>>>> >> >> >> list > >>>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list > >>>>> >> >> >> with > >>>>> >> >> >> immediate > >>>>> >> >> >> effect. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always > been > >>>>> in > >>>>> >> >> >> favour of > >>>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last > year > >>>>> and a > >>>>> >> >> >> half) > >>>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their > allies > >>>>> (in > >>>>> >> >> >> serious > >>>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with > >>>>> their > >>>>> >> >> >> rubbish > >>>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his > >>>>> expulsion on > >>>>> >> >> >> grounds > >>>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give > >>>>> >> >> >> the > >>>>> >> benefit > >>>>> >> >> >> of > >>>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' > >>>>> especially > >>>>> >> when > >>>>> >> >> >> I do > >>>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said > in > >>>>> anger > >>>>> >> >> >> need a > >>>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, > >>>>> Aditya > >>>>> >> Raj > >>>>> >> >> >> Kaul > >>>>> >> >> >> and their allies. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The > harm > >>>>> that > >>>>> >> they > >>>>> >> >> >> can > >>>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or > >>>>> >> >> >> conjecture. > >>>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by > >>>>> >> arguments > >>>>> >> >> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples > >>>>> >> personal > >>>>> >> >> >> lives > >>>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public > fora, > >>>>> spread > >>>>> >> >> >> poison > >>>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. > >>>>> There > >>>>> >> have > >>>>> >> >> >> to > >>>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do > >>>>> >> >> >> by > >>>>> a > >>>>> >> >> >> foreign > >>>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther > I > >>>>> am, or > >>>>> >> I > >>>>> >> >> >> am > >>>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above > >>>>> >> suggests > >>>>> >> >> >> that I > >>>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a > >>>>> >> statement > >>>>> >> >> >> about > >>>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only > >>>>> way to > >>>>> >> >> >> settle > >>>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the > >>>>> allegation > >>>>> >> >> >> proves > >>>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false > >>>>> witness. > >>>>> >> The > >>>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very > >>>>> serious > >>>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a > >>>>> 'foreign > >>>>> >> power' > >>>>> >> >> >> in > >>>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, > today. > >>>>> Such > >>>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person > is > >>>>> libel > >>>>> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to > protection > >>>>> on the > >>>>> >> >> >> grounds > >>>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying > itself > >>>>> and > >>>>> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to > >>>>> >> >> >> defame > >>>>> a > >>>>> >> >> >> person or > >>>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing > to > >>>>> >> conceal. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> regards > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Shuddha > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >>>>> >> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> >> >> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > >>>>> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _________________________________________ > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 08:37:41 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:37:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation to the Launch of EmpoweringIndia.org Message-ID: Dear all, EmpoweringIndia.org launches in Hyderabad tomorrow. Please circulate widely among friends who might be interested in attending. We are seeking partners to help us with disseminating the information. Look forward to seeing all of you at the launch tomorrow. Best wishes, Zainab *Liberty Institute* In partnership with the *Friedrich Naumann Stiftung - für die Freiheit* Cordially invites you for the launch of its new initiative *Empowering India* *Making democracy meaningful* * * *www.EmpoweringIndia.org* *A unique website on candidates and constituencies* *by* *Sri J M Lyngdoh* *Former Chief Election Commissioner of India* Date: *12 November 2008* Time: *11 am* Venue: Conference Hall, *Centre for Economic & Social Studies* (CESS), Begumpet, Hyderabad. Tel. 2340 2789, 2341 6780 *Programme:* *11 am to 12 noon: Release of Empowering India web site* Launch of Empowering India: *Shri J M Lyngdoh,* former Chief Election Commissioner of India Guest of Honour: *Dr I V Subba Rao,* I.A.S., Chief Electoral Officer, Andhra Pradesh, Introducing Empowering India: *Sri Barun Mitra,* Director, Liberty Institute *12 noon To 1 pm: Panel discussion on "Making Democracy Meaningful"* President: *Prof C V Raghavulu,* Former VC, Acharya Nagarjuna, University Panelists: *Sri Yanamala Ramakrishnudu,* Former Speaker, Telugu Desam Party, *Dr N Jayaprakash Narayana,* President, Lok Satta Party. 1 to 2 pm: Lunch *2 to 4.30 pm: Workshop on Empowering India* President: *Sri Y Lakshman Reddy,* President, Jana Chaitanya Vedika. Guest of honour: *Sri C Arjuna Rao,* IAS (Rtd), Former Chief Secretary, Andhra Pradesh Detailed demonstration of Empowering India: *Sri Barun Mitra,* Liberty Institute Feedback and Discussion with potential partners 4.30 to 5 pm: Tea and Coffee *RSVP:* Ch. Narendra, Mobile : 98495 69050 *Empowering India: An introduction * Active citizenship is central to democratic governance. While freedom to vote is fundamental, on average only about half of those eligible actually cast their vote. However, freedom to vote also includes the freedom to exercise the right not to vote. Empowering India seeks to empower the citizens with information, encourages them to cherish their political freedom, and urges them to exercise their democratic rights meaningfully. Towards that goal, Empowering India web site has information about elections and affidavits filed by candidates during state assembly and parliament election. We are also working to include information about constituencies, and performance indicators of legislators. *Making Democracy Meaningful* Empowering India is an initiative of Liberty Institute, an independent, non-profit, public policy research and awareness organisation based in New Delhi. We believe politics is not only a necessary function in an open and democratic society, but must also be seen as a noble profession. Empowering India was born in an attempt to understand when and how good policies make good politics. Our key objectives are the following: - Encourage voters to make informed choice during elections; - Promote transparency and accountability; - Stimulate good governance; - Monitor performance of elected representatives; - Improve understanding of the democratic processes; - Nurture a dialogue between citizens and political activists; - Foster a rational discourse on public policy issues. Contact us at the following address. *Liberty Institute* Julian L. Simon Centre C-4/8, Sahyadri Plot 5, Sector 12, Dwarka New Delhi 110078 *Email:* *Telefax:* +91-11-28031309 www.EmpoweringIndia.org www.InDefenceofLiberty.org Empowering India was initiated with the support of *Friedrich Naumann Stiftung - für die Freiheit* www.southasia.fnst.org FNF is the foundation for liberal politics. It was founded in 1958 by, amongst others, Theodor Heuss, the first German Federal President after World War II. The Foundation currently works in some sixty different countries around the world – to promote ideas on liberty and strategies for freedom. Our instruments are civic education, political consultancy and political dialogue. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From office at buchsenhausen.at Mon Nov 10 20:52:42 2008 From: office at buchsenhausen.at (Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:22:42 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for Submissions: International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory 2009/2010 at Buchsenhausen Message-ID: <31FDF759-F7C1-47F0-88B6-5CA85B5AEA8C@buchsenhausen.at> Our apologies for cross-posting. *********************************************************************** KUNSTLERHAUS BUCHSENHAUSEN INTERNATIONAL FELLOWSHIP PROGRAMME FOR VISUAL ARTS AND THEORY CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS 2009/2010 *********************************************************************** Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen invites visual and media artists, art critics, theorists, and curators to apply for the three fellowship positions in 2009–2010. The period for which candidates can apply is September 7, 2009 – July 2, 2010. [The closing date for submissions is December 5, 2008 (postmark)] ----------------------------------------- [Institution] Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen is a post-graduate center for production, research, exchange in the fields of visual arts and art theory. Within the framework of the International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory, the Kunstlerhaus provides a platform that facilitates the development and production of artistic and art-theoretical projects in a critical context. At the same time, Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen offers a forum for direct exchange between professionals – artists, theoreticians, critics, and curators – from the region and abroad, as well as a point of interaction with local interested audiences. Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen is affiliated with the Tyrolean Artists' Association, the major association of visual artists from the region. Buchsenhausen brings together two programmes under one roof. On the one hand, it is the site of the International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory. On the other hand, it is the location of several studios for artists based in Tyrol, who require space for working in a professionally interesting environment. The building - the eastern wing of the Buchsenhausen Castle, built in the middle of the 17th century and situated not far from the center of the city of Innsbruck - houses nine studios and a project space. Three apartment studios are used by the fellows of the International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory. Six studios are available to artists based in Tyrol. The project and presentation space is equipped with multimedia facilities and is at the fellows' disposal. The space was designed by Atelier van Lieshout. ----------------------------------------- [International Fellowship Programme] With its Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory, Buchsenhausen actively promotes internationally relevant art production, research, and discussion in the region of Tyrol. The programme's aims are: * To improve the production of a qualified discourse on art and society in the local and global context; * To improve exchange between cultural producers in the visual arts and beyond (creating a network of experts); * To support and expand the critical, socially relevant artistic and art-theoretical production of knowledge; * To facilitate the transfer of knowledge between the art field and the public outside the art context. The programme brings together the advantages of a residency with the possibilities of a postgraduate non-university lectureship, without offering a formalized educational programme. In terms of content, the programme addresses a worldwide public made up of professionals in the fields of contemporary art, architecture, art and media theory and criticism. The fellows, selected by expert jurors, find excellent working conditions in Buchsenhausen, while the city of Innsbruck and its surrounding area offer an interesting setting in terms of its art, culture, and landscape. The grant and the residency not only allow fellows to work on their proposed projects, but also give them the chance to experiment and to reconsider their current practice. The conveyance and discussion of the fellow’s own work occurs parallel to the development of the individual projects. The public events take place in series. The focus of these series of events is determined by the respective emphases of the various fellows' works. Within the framework of this discursive format, the fellows (or their guests) can present various points in their research, open up their works-in-progress to critical discussion, interact with experts who they invite, work through content with the public, and/or try out new ways of working. For former and current fellows and their projects please visit http://buchsenhausen.at. ----------------------------------------- [Fellowship] * a grant of EUR 650/month to cover living expenses; * an individual studio for working and living, furnished with a large shared kitchen; * a production budget for the realization of the proposed project; * the possibility of inviting experts to Buchsenhausen in order to have a professional exchange; * the opportunity of an exhibition at the end of the fellowship in Buchsenhausen or at the Kunstpavillon in Innsbruck. ----------------------------------------- [Facilities] * free access to the 'labor', the project/gallery space; * free use of the available multimedia production equipment in the 'labor'; * free DSL/WLAN internet access; * professional artistic advice from the general advisors (2 terms / year); * technical advice if required. ----------------------------------------- [Eligibility] Professional visual/media artists, art theorists, art critics, and curators from all over the world are eligible for the fellowship. ----------------------------------------- [Requirements] The candidates must submit a project proposal. Work on the submitted project forms the core of each fellow's activities during his/her stay in Buchsenhausen. A description of a series of public events intended to accompany the individual work during the duration of the fellowship (four to six events) is also an integral part of the project proposal. If the application is successful, the fellows are required to specify the details of the presentation series and carry out the proposed programme. The fellows must be present in Buchsenhausen for a minimum of two thirds of the allocated fellowship time. Working knowledge of English is required. ----------------------------------------- [Selection] The selection of fellows is made by a jury of experts and based on the quality and relevance of the project proposal and the work samples submitted by the applicants. The jury includes the director of Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, a member of the board of the 'Tyrolean Artists' Association' and one external expert. The members of the jury also fulfill the role of advisors who can be consulted for their expertise at least two times during the fellowship. Jury 2009/10: Stephan Dillemuth, Annja Krautgasser, Andrei Siclodi The selection procedure occurs in two stages. In the first stage, the submitted applications are evaluated and the jury makes a shortlist of candidates who will be invited to Buchsenhausen for personal interviews. The personal interview with the jury forms the second stage. For the interview, the applicants have to come to Innsbruck to personally present their working plans and aims during the fellowship. Buchsenhausen will pay for accommodation in Innsbruck for one night, but cannot cover the costs for travel to Innsbruck. There is no legal right to be awarded a fellowship at Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen. The jury is therefore under no obligation to justify decisions. The jury's decision will be communicated in written form in January 2009 (first stage) and March 2009 (second stage). ----------------------------------------- [Application procedure] Applications must include the following documents: * the project proposal (max 2,000 words, in English or in German, 3 copies) * a visual portfolio/documentation of recent works (artists: max 2 catalogues, max 10 photos or slides, 1 DVD or 1 CD-ROM; theorists/art critics: max 3 recent writing samples) * a curriculum vitae (3 copies) * a completed application form Download the application form at http://buchsenhausen.at, complete it and send it together with the required material listed above to: Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, Ref.: "Fellowship 2009/10" Weiherburggasse 13/12 6020 Innsbruck Austria CLOSING DATE FOR SUBMISSIONS (postmark): DECEMBER 5, 2008 For additional information, please contact: office at buchsenhausen.at, phone +43 512 278627, fax -11. -- Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen Weiherburggasse 13/12 6020 Innsbruck, Austria phone +43 512 278627 fax +43 512 278627-11 office at buchsenhausen.at www.buchsenhausen.at www.kuenstlerschaft.at member of www.innsbruckcontemporary.at www.baettle.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sen.gargi at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 14:52:48 2008 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:52:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, dear all, I am a general lurker on this list and the list is an important space for me, and I think for many like me, habitual lurkers. Its a space that has helped to initiate and carry out many important but difficult dialogues. It has produced some very fine erudition. While there are many favourites but my personal choice would be Shuddha your annotation to the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir and a reading of Kalhana in four parts. Huge but riveting. And many such fine pieces have been on the list ­ I can name many whose writing and deliberations have made me think, pause, reflect, rethink... But the main strength of this list I dare say has been its maturity to deal positions that believe repeating lies and half baked opinions endlessly will turn desires into truths . They are a dreary part of this list but probably have played a part in provoking some of the greatest responses. So while I have looked with dread at the most common names that appear most often on this list, I have been very impressed with the responses to them. The recent exchange between Inder Salim and Aditya Raj kaul on caste is a case. I wonder if Inder Salim would have felt compelled to articulate in this manner and forum if it wasn¹t for Aditya? Or would you Shuddha write at such length if it wasn¹t for Rashneek? I also saw that a sustained dialogue can help people shift positions. I see Khemendra Kaul who is at least willing to listen and talk. And I believe that such a shift is possible because of the quality of dialogue, and a freedom to express, on the Sarai list. So despite Aditya Raj Kaul¹s viciousness where he has graduated from threatening to spit to slap, and his immature but dangerous worldview or Pawan Durani¹s aggression and shifting celebration from Maharashtra to Andhra, and the utter tedium of their arguments that lack the basic tenets of an argument, or their ignorance, or their silly, hostile, masculine, grandiose and empty posturing I believe they should be allowed to continue. This is as much for freedom of expression as much for the hope that deep inside they are just immature and don¹t really mean what they write. As for the specific charges of being *paid* that they made against you Shuddha, I think everyone, at least those who have the energy, should continue to ask them for proof :-) Rather than expel them. Otherwise I am afraid that it could seem like the Sarai list is *punishing* them for errant behaviour whereas the allegations they make are far more serious, and have far graver implications than such punitive measures can correct. Gargi Sen From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 15:15:10 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:45:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <49190E88.2000901@sarai.net> Message-ID: <545178.648.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Nadine Gordimer seems to have been very assertive in her comments which  carried positivity. She does not appear to be enouraging any debate over whether Obama is "really black". She said (as reported):    """""He's been celebrated as a black man. But it's not being pointed out that he's half black and half white. To me, it symbolically represents a kind of advancement in recognising the human tribe as one."""""   List member V Ramaswamy attended the lecture by Nadine Gordimer in Kolkatta and had this to say:   """" Asked about the Obama victory, she clarified that Obama was not a "black" man, he was actually half black and half white, and thus symbolises the importance and potential of pluralism."""""     Kshmendra --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: From: Vivek Narayanan Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? To: "Nicholas Ruiz III" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:18 AM Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that only points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He uses a contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against Black Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is how completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and as an activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not getting this, Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential support base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was more in touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul suggests; or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* that Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the party who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it has gone away only entangles us further. Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. For all he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to come into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, and I think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to critique and challenge Obama] Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's comments equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's ancestry is Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social world in places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine Gordimer apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local wine shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that Nader, Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the dramaturgy of racialised politics. Vivek Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems to be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the irrelevant nature of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will make the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a U.S. president of a different hue... > > Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an attempt to eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has relegated, for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media coverage and commentary... > > NRIII > > Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D > Editor, Kritikos > http://intertheory.org > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul Miller > To: Nicholas Ruiz III > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > > Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally > and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political > context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. > > To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African > American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would > be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive > place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's > trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. > > I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a > Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation > > you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the > saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in > for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in > 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's > presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black > Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the > Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. > > To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think > that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and > balanced." > > in peace, > Paul > > > On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > > >> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >> >> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of >> Obama and McCain... >> >> NRIII >> >> >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >> Editor, Kritikos >> http://intertheory.org >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Paul Miller >> To: V Ramaswamy >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >> >> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth >> University. >> >> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc >> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >> >> OK - response: >> >> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: >> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public >> discourse? No. >> >> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was >> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage >> (as Nader's comment was). >> >> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in >> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about >> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of >> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. >> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, >> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost >> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >> >> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth >> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed >> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not >> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African >> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an >> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support >> with his comments. >> >> in peace, >> Paul >> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >> >> >>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe >>> that was >>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>> "Uncle >>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a >>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>> white >>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>> oneself >>> within that. >>> >>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", >>> by >>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>> silently >>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom >>> he >>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>> rejects. >>> >>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle >>> Tom" a >>> few times. >>> >>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. >>> I don't >>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a >>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>> certain >>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>> ultimately >>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was >>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>> how >>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>> >>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say >>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his >>> "open >>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's >>> bending over >>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>> based >>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>> >>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>> to be >>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>> that >>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>> that >>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like >>> to think >>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>> people can >>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>> what has >>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>> >>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, >>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>> Obama. He is >>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that >>> one's >>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies >>> like >>> these, who needs friends!" >>> >>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on >>> Obama >>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a >>> blog >>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> V Ramaswamy >>> Calcutta >>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 15:18:53 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:18:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811110148j6b489d48qe0dd2437dd31a3c5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gargi, Lal Salaam , Thank you for the note. Its been a long time since you have written last on this list. I have some very brief comments 1. Have you read Rashneek's write up on iconoclasm , he wrote it becuase Shuddha interpretation was wrong. 2. Kshmendra treading a middle path pleases you , howver do you justify that all those on "other" or may i dare to say on the 'left' side are right. 3. It's not foor the first time Shuddha has tried to get me removed. Infact in january he tried the same and later apologised.It is on record. 4. I am not in a position to send a well researched mail , for that I would have to spend a lot of time. Unfortunately , i dont have as much time these days.And even if one does write , people like Shuddha wont accept . Has he accepted Rashneek's view till date ? It's difficult to paint white over red. 5. My love for Andhra or Maharshtra has nothing to do with Agression. I respect and love the state where i earn my bread and butter. And everyone else should. Not like those Kashmiris who do otherwise. 6. You find my tone masculine , is something i cant help. I have studied in a school where the Motto is "In all Things be men" . Thatz the oldest school in Kashmir called Tyandale Biscoe memorial High School. Among other alumni from the school are Dr Farooq Abdullah and Ashfaq Majid Wani . Farooq you must be knowing , and Ashfaq Majid was one of the core member of HAJY gang of JKLF. 7. I thank you for you opposing our removal , though Shuddha tries very hard to act like Musharraf to get his will imposed. 8. As long as support for our tormentors is generated on this list , we would fight back. 9. There is a silent majority , apart from the ones carrying the red flag. There is a Raja for every Yousaf , Dhatri for every Prakash Ray and Pawan for every Shuddha. God Bless Pawan Durani Jai Andhra - jai Hindusthan On 11/11/08, Gargi Sen wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, dear all, > I am a general lurker on this list and the list is an important space for > me, and I think for many like me, habitual lurkers. Its a space that has > helped to initiate and carry out many important but difficult dialogues. It > has produced some very fine erudition. While there are many favourites but > my personal choice would be Shuddha your annotation to the history of > iconoclasm in Kashmir and a reading of Kalhana in four parts. Huge but > riveting. > And many such fine pieces have been on the list ­ I can name many whose > writing and deliberations have made me think, pause, reflect, rethink... > > But the main strength of this list I dare say has been its maturity to > deal > positions that believe repeating lies and half baked opinions endlessly > will > turn desires into truths . > They are a dreary part of this list but probably have played a part in > provoking some of the greatest responses. So while I have looked with dread > at the most common names that appear most often on this list, I have been > very impressed with the responses to them. The recent exchange between > Inder > Salim and Aditya Raj kaul on caste is a case. I wonder if Inder Salim would > have felt compelled to articulate in this manner and forum if it wasn¹t for > Aditya? Or would you Shuddha write at such length if it wasn¹t for > Rashneek? > I also saw that a sustained dialogue can help people shift positions. I see > Khemendra Kaul who is at least willing to listen and talk. > And I believe that such a shift is possible because of the quality of > dialogue, and a freedom to express, on the Sarai list. > > So despite Aditya Raj Kaul¹s viciousness where he has graduated from > threatening to spit to slap, and his immature but dangerous worldview or > Pawan Durani¹s aggression and shifting celebration from Maharashtra to > Andhra, and the utter tedium of their arguments that lack the basic tenets > of an argument, or their ignorance, or their silly, hostile, masculine, > grandiose and empty posturing I believe they should be allowed to continue. > This is as much for freedom of expression as much for the hope that deep > inside they are just immature and don¹t really mean what they write. > > As for the specific charges of being *paid* that they made against you > Shuddha, I think everyone, at least those who have the energy, should > continue to ask them for proof :-) Rather than expel them. Otherwise I am > afraid that it could seem like the Sarai list is *punishing* them for > errant > behaviour whereas the allegations they make are far more serious, and have > far graver implications than such punitive measures can correct. > > Gargi Sen > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 15:46:19 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:46:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13df7c120811110216q6abaec2cp3ce8322bfb17c992@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gargi, I have really been out of this all and have stayed quite.Please dont drag me into this.In case you have read Shudda's pieces please do care to read mine too before you make statements here.I can say with authority that in most aspects of Kashmir including those four pieces Shudda's knowledge is incomplete and wanting. Yet I have admired him for his understanding and knowledge in so many fields. Well in case you wanted to do some mudslinging at me,you may just end up proving your inherent biases,thats all. Live on Rashneek On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Gargi Sen wrote: > Dear Shuddha, dear all, > I am a general lurker on this list and the list is an important space for > me, and I think for many like me, habitual lurkers. Its a space that has > helped to initiate and carry out many important but difficult dialogues. It > has produced some very fine erudition. While there are many favourites but > my personal choice would be Shuddha your annotation to the history of > iconoclasm in Kashmir and a reading of Kalhana in four parts. Huge but > riveting. > And many such fine pieces have been on the list ­ I can name many whose > writing and deliberations have made me think, pause, reflect, rethink... > > But the main strength of this list I dare say has been its maturity to > deal > positions that believe repeating lies and half baked opinions endlessly > will > turn desires into truths . > They are a dreary part of this list but probably have played a part in > provoking some of the greatest responses. So while I have looked with dread > at the most common names that appear most often on this list, I have been > very impressed with the responses to them. The recent exchange between > Inder > Salim and Aditya Raj kaul on caste is a case. I wonder if Inder Salim would > have felt compelled to articulate in this manner and forum if it wasn¹t for > Aditya? Or would you Shuddha write at such length if it wasn¹t for > Rashneek? > I also saw that a sustained dialogue can help people shift positions. I see > Khemendra Kaul who is at least willing to listen and talk. > And I believe that such a shift is possible because of the quality of > dialogue, and a freedom to express, on the Sarai list. > > So despite Aditya Raj Kaul¹s viciousness where he has graduated from > threatening to spit to slap, and his immature but dangerous worldview or > Pawan Durani¹s aggression and shifting celebration from Maharashtra to > Andhra, and the utter tedium of their arguments that lack the basic tenets > of an argument, or their ignorance, or their silly, hostile, masculine, > grandiose and empty posturing I believe they should be allowed to continue. > This is as much for freedom of expression as much for the hope that deep > inside they are just immature and don¹t really mean what they write. > > As for the specific charges of being *paid* that they made against you > Shuddha, I think everyone, at least those who have the energy, should > continue to ask them for proof :-) Rather than expel them. Otherwise I am > afraid that it could seem like the Sarai list is *punishing* them for > errant > behaviour whereas the allegations they make are far more serious, and have > far graver implications than such punitive measures can correct. > > Gargi Sen > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 16:26:25 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:26:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811110148j6b489d48qe0dd2437dd31a3c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> <6b79f1a70811110148j6b489d48qe0dd2437dd31a3c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811110256h289d085ep7d03ac2040d50a78@mail.gmail.com> Dear Gargi Sen and others While I appreciate the fact that these "confrontations" have led to a lot of fruitful discussions and articulations, one also has to weigh the cost involved - the time, the effort, the stressful nights - to counter the allegations, find references, and so on. Compared to ordinary situations in day to-day life, such commitment of time and effort could have led to something even more fruitful. And besides, the benefit of these articulations seem mostly one-sided - those who are addressed these articulations do not have the time or patience to read them and get wiser. Maybe, some people have shown change, but internet is the last place to read anybody's real intent. I wish all these confrontations were happening in real life, face-to-face (of course without the exchange of saliva), it would be more fun. We'd get to know each other better. Most of the vital communication actually gets lost on the internet. I am sure one day of a real conference between the active members of Sarai would have been better than 1 and half years of ugly confrontations. Why doesn't Sarai think of inviting some of these people over and have a real meeting to discuss. Just an idea. Kirdar On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Gargi, > > Lal Salaam , > > Thank you for the note. Its been a long time since you have written last on > this list. I have some very brief comments > > 1. Have you read Rashneek's write up on iconoclasm , he wrote it becuase > Shuddha interpretation was wrong. > > 2. Kshmendra treading a middle path pleases you , howver do you justify that > all those on "other" or may i dare to say on the 'left' side are right. > > 3. It's not foor the first time Shuddha has tried to get me removed. Infact > in january he tried the same and later apologised.It is on record. > > 4. I am not in a position to send a well researched mail , for that I would > have to spend a lot of time. Unfortunately , i dont have as much time these > days.And even if one does write , people like Shuddha wont accept . Has he > accepted Rashneek's view till date ? It's difficult to paint white over red. > > 5. My love for Andhra or Maharshtra has nothing to do with Agression. I > respect and love the state where i earn my bread and butter. And everyone > else should. Not like those Kashmiris who do otherwise. > > 6. You find my tone masculine , is something i cant help. I have studied in > a school where the Motto is "In all Things be men" . Thatz the oldest school > in Kashmir called Tyandale Biscoe memorial High School. Among other alumni > from the school are Dr Farooq Abdullah and Ashfaq Majid Wani . Farooq you > must be knowing , and Ashfaq Majid was one of the core member of HAJY gang > of JKLF. > > 7. I thank you for you opposing our removal , though Shuddha tries very hard > to act like Musharraf to get his will imposed. > > 8. As long as support for our tormentors is generated on this list , we > would fight back. > > 9. There is a silent majority , apart from the ones carrying the red flag. > There is a Raja for every Yousaf , Dhatri for every Prakash Ray and Pawan > for every Shuddha. > > God Bless > > Pawan Durani > Jai Andhra - jai Hindusthan > > > > > > On 11/11/08, Gargi Sen wrote: >> >> Dear Shuddha, dear all, >> I am a general lurker on this list and the list is an important space for >> me, and I think for many like me, habitual lurkers. Its a space that has >> helped to initiate and carry out many important but difficult dialogues. It >> has produced some very fine erudition. While there are many favourites but >> my personal choice would be Shuddha your annotation to the history of >> iconoclasm in Kashmir and a reading of Kalhana in four parts. Huge but >> riveting. >> And many such fine pieces have been on the list ­ I can name many whose >> writing and deliberations have made me think, pause, reflect, rethink... >> >> But the main strength of this list I dare say has been its maturity to >> deal >> positions that believe repeating lies and half baked opinions endlessly >> will >> turn desires into truths . >> They are a dreary part of this list but probably have played a part in >> provoking some of the greatest responses. So while I have looked with dread >> at the most common names that appear most often on this list, I have been >> very impressed with the responses to them. The recent exchange between >> Inder >> Salim and Aditya Raj kaul on caste is a case. I wonder if Inder Salim would >> have felt compelled to articulate in this manner and forum if it wasn¹t for >> Aditya? Or would you Shuddha write at such length if it wasn¹t for >> Rashneek? >> I also saw that a sustained dialogue can help people shift positions. I see >> Khemendra Kaul who is at least willing to listen and talk. >> And I believe that such a shift is possible because of the quality of >> dialogue, and a freedom to express, on the Sarai list. >> >> So despite Aditya Raj Kaul¹s viciousness where he has graduated from >> threatening to spit to slap, and his immature but dangerous worldview or >> Pawan Durani¹s aggression and shifting celebration from Maharashtra to >> Andhra, and the utter tedium of their arguments that lack the basic tenets >> of an argument, or their ignorance, or their silly, hostile, masculine, >> grandiose and empty posturing I believe they should be allowed to continue. >> This is as much for freedom of expression as much for the hope that deep >> inside they are just immature and don¹t really mean what they write. >> >> As for the specific charges of being *paid* that they made against you >> Shuddha, I think everyone, at least those who have the energy, should >> continue to ask them for proof :-) Rather than expel them. Otherwise I am >> afraid that it could seem like the Sarai list is *punishing* them for >> errant >> behaviour whereas the allegations they make are far more serious, and have >> far graver implications than such punitive measures can correct. >> >> Gargi Sen >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 16:40:21 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:40:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <73eb60090811110256h289d085ep7d03ac2040d50a78@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> <6b79f1a70811110148j6b489d48qe0dd2437dd31a3c5@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811110256h289d085ep7d03ac2040d50a78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0811110310u269c8a04qfbd1fd47fa5cfe83@mail.gmail.com> nothing wrong with the exchange of saliva now and then... On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Kirdar wrote: > Dear Gargi Sen and others > While I appreciate the fact that these "confrontations" have led to a > lot of fruitful discussions and articulations, one also has to weigh > the cost involved - the time, the effort, the stressful nights - to > counter the allegations, find references, and so on. Compared to > ordinary situations in day to-day life, such commitment of time and > effort could have led to something even more fruitful. And besides, > the benefit of these articulations seem mostly one-sided - those who > are addressed these articulations do not have the time or patience to > read them and get wiser. Maybe, some people have shown change, but > internet is the last place to read anybody's real intent. I wish all > these confrontations were happening in real life, face-to-face (of > course without the exchange of saliva), it would be more fun. We'd get > to know each other better. Most of the vital communication actually > gets lost on the internet. I am sure one day of a real conference > between the active members of Sarai would have been better than 1 and > half years of ugly confrontations. Why doesn't Sarai think of inviting > some of these people over and have a real meeting to discuss. Just an > idea. > > Kirdar > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear Gargi, > > > > Lal Salaam , > > > > Thank you for the note. Its been a long time since you have written last > on > > this list. I have some very brief comments > > > > 1. Have you read Rashneek's write up on iconoclasm , he wrote it becuase > > Shuddha interpretation was wrong. > > > > 2. Kshmendra treading a middle path pleases you , howver do you justify > that > > all those on "other" or may i dare to say on the 'left' side are right. > > > > 3. It's not foor the first time Shuddha has tried to get me removed. > Infact > > in january he tried the same and later apologised.It is on record. > > > > 4. I am not in a position to send a well researched mail , for that I > would > > have to spend a lot of time. Unfortunately , i dont have as much time > these > > days.And even if one does write , people like Shuddha wont accept . Has > he > > accepted Rashneek's view till date ? It's difficult to paint white over > red. > > > > 5. My love for Andhra or Maharshtra has nothing to do with Agression. I > > respect and love the state where i earn my bread and butter. And everyone > > else should. Not like those Kashmiris who do otherwise. > > > > 6. You find my tone masculine , is something i cant help. I have studied > in > > a school where the Motto is "In all Things be men" . Thatz the oldest > school > > in Kashmir called Tyandale Biscoe memorial High School. Among other > alumni > > from the school are Dr Farooq Abdullah and Ashfaq Majid Wani . Farooq you > > must be knowing , and Ashfaq Majid was one of the core member of HAJY > gang > > of JKLF. > > > > 7. I thank you for you opposing our removal , though Shuddha tries very > hard > > to act like Musharraf to get his will imposed. > > > > 8. As long as support for our tormentors is generated on this list , we > > would fight back. > > > > 9. There is a silent majority , apart from the ones carrying the red > flag. > > There is a Raja for every Yousaf , Dhatri for every Prakash Ray and Pawan > > for every Shuddha. > > > > God Bless > > > > Pawan Durani > > Jai Andhra - jai Hindusthan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/11/08, Gargi Sen wrote: > >> > >> Dear Shuddha, dear all, > >> I am a general lurker on this list and the list is an important space > for > >> me, and I think for many like me, habitual lurkers. Its a space that has > >> helped to initiate and carry out many important but difficult dialogues. > It > >> has produced some very fine erudition. While there are many favourites > but > >> my personal choice would be Shuddha your annotation to the history of > >> iconoclasm in Kashmir and a reading of Kalhana in four parts. Huge but > >> riveting. > >> And many such fine pieces have been on the list ­ I can name many whose > >> writing and deliberations have made me think, pause, reflect, rethink... > >> > >> But the main strength of this list I dare say has been its maturity to > >> deal > >> positions that believe repeating lies and half baked opinions endlessly > >> will > >> turn desires into truths . > >> They are a dreary part of this list but probably have played a part in > >> provoking some of the greatest responses. So while I have looked with > dread > >> at the most common names that appear most often on this list, I have > been > >> very impressed with the responses to them. The recent exchange between > >> Inder > >> Salim and Aditya Raj kaul on caste is a case. I wonder if Inder Salim > would > >> have felt compelled to articulate in this manner and forum if it wasn¹t > for > >> Aditya? Or would you Shuddha write at such length if it wasn¹t for > >> Rashneek? > >> I also saw that a sustained dialogue can help people shift positions. I > see > >> Khemendra Kaul who is at least willing to listen and talk. > >> And I believe that such a shift is possible because of the quality of > >> dialogue, and a freedom to express, on the Sarai list. > >> > >> So despite Aditya Raj Kaul¹s viciousness where he has graduated from > >> threatening to spit to slap, and his immature but dangerous worldview or > >> Pawan Durani¹s aggression and shifting celebration from Maharashtra to > >> Andhra, and the utter tedium of their arguments that lack the basic > tenets > >> of an argument, or their ignorance, or their silly, hostile, masculine, > >> grandiose and empty posturing I believe they should be allowed to > continue. > >> This is as much for freedom of expression as much for the hope that deep > >> inside they are just immature and don¹t really mean what they write. > >> > >> As for the specific charges of being *paid* that they made against you > >> Shuddha, I think everyone, at least those who have the energy, should > >> continue to ask them for proof :-) Rather than expel them. Otherwise I > am > >> afraid that it could seem like the Sarai list is *punishing* them for > >> errant > >> behaviour whereas the allegations they make are far more serious, and > have > >> far graver implications than such punitive measures can correct. > >> > >> Gargi Sen > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From itsnishant at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 16:49:53 2008 From: itsnishant at gmail.com (Nishant Shah) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:49:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0811110310u269c8a04qfbd1fd47fa5cfe83@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> <6b79f1a70811110148j6b489d48qe0dd2437dd31a3c5@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090811110256h289d085ep7d03ac2040d50a78@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0811110310u269c8a04qfbd1fd47fa5cfe83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti, You just stole my unlurker line! This was the first cue I had to actually jump in and crush some grapes! cheers Nishant On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > nothing wrong with the exchange of saliva now and then... > > -- Nishant Shah Doctoral Candidate, CSCS, Bangalore. Director (Research), Centre for Internet and Society,( www.cis-india.org ) Asia Awards Fellow, 2008-09 # 0-9740074884 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 17:51:18 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:21:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] A conflict of visions -by Tom Sowell In-Reply-To: <427594.84190.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <202364.25863.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   Thank you for posting this very educative piece. Educative for me that is.   I would have loved to read "A Conflict of Visions" but judging by the contents of the review itself, I am sure my intellectual limitations would seriously hamper my understanding of it's contents.   This review is good enough for me.   I tried to see where I fitted in the CV (Constrained Vision) and UV (Unconstrained Vision) categorisations. I am a misfit in both. The words thrashed me around, tossing my being between the two.   I realised that perhaps it is meant only for 'visionaries' with already concretised attitudes. Only they can presume to 'know' what are the 'right' means and ends. Only they can presume to 'see' what are the 'clear paths' to walk on.   So, at the end of it I was still rooted in the littleness of my nowhereness.   Your prefacing words "insightful crucible to analyze value positions across weather beaten political positions" might or might not have been prompted by the goings-on in this List. In my opinion, much of what is contained in the 'review' is applicable to the nature of interactions on this List and the quality of interactions on this List.   This List certainly does present examples of Ideological Origins of Political Confrontations; The struggles of such confrontations; The manifestations of the Ideologies and Struggles in the (often mindless) attitudes and positions taken.   As much for myself, as in the hope that at least a few others too might introspect, I have extracted some portions that could be worth thinking about:   - In observing arguments for and against a wide variety of positions, Dr. Sowell reports that he noticed that in many cases participants seemed to be arguing not so much against each other, but past each other. In other words, each person was arguing not against the others’ position but what they perceived those positions to be, which was often far different from the actual positions held. - Prior to paradigms, world-views, theories or any rationally articulated models there is an underlying vision, ........ what we sense or feel before we have constructed any systematic reasoning ..... much less deduced any specific consequences as hypotheses to be tested against evidence. A vision is our sense of how the world works.   - What is important to the problem of both academic and journalistic bias is how contrasting visions lead to unconscious assumptions about how the world works, and how that affects their interpretation of events.   - It (is) noteworthy how often arguments give the “real” motive of the opposing point of view – the one thing that cannot be known for certain. Motives can be strongly inferred only by a ruthlessly honest appraisal of one’s own nature – but it is seldom the case that a partisan for a particular point of view argues that “His motive is probably thus because that is what I experience in myself.”   - The use of ad hominem attacks (both Direct and Circumstantial) on someone’s credibility, probably coming from the unconscious assumption that since articulated reason can show the way to the social good, then conclusions about how to achieve it must be consistent among reasonable people. Disagreement about means and ends are seen as coming from ulterior motives, villainy or stupidity.   - an appreciation of the role of visions in shaping worldviews can help make sense of opposing views for those who disagree and shows us that opposing views are not capriciously chosen or necessarily stemming from ulterior motives, but are internally self-consistent within the framework of the underlying vision. One may even hope that this appreciation may lead at least to genuine argument of the points at issue rather than character assassination and attribution of rapaciously self-interested motive. Thank you once again Rahul   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: [Reader-list] A conflict of visions -by Tom Sowell To: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 8:03 AM Dear All, Here is a review of a conceptual formulation by Tom Sowell that I came across long time ago.I find it a very interesting and perhaps more insightful crucible to analyze value positions across weather beaten political positions. Thanks Rahul http://rantsand.blogspot.com/2007/04/review-conflict-of-visions-by-thomas.html Dr. Thomas Sowell is one of those authors whose laundry lists I'd read. Reading A Conflict of Visions was one of the "Ah-ha!" moments of my life. Sowell is an economist, newspaper columnist and Fellow at the Hoover Institution. He is a prolific writer on economics, public policy, history, culture and the politics of race. His opinions are often controversial and he has strong detractors and supporters. Agree or disagree, he is an opinion leader of considerable influence in our society today. In observing arguments for and against a wide variety of positions, Dr. Sowell reports that he noticed that in many cases participants seemed to be arguing not so much against each other, but past each other. In other words, each person was arguing not against the others’ position but what they perceived those positions to be, which was often far different from the actual positions held. Over time he refined his observations into the theory expressed in, A Conflict of Visions – Ideological Origins of Political Struggles (Basic Books, 2002). I believe this book has critical insights important for understanding the major ideological conflicts within Western civilization and has specific application to understanding the controversies concerning academic and journalistic bias. His thesis is that prior to paradigms, world-views, theories or any rationally articulated models there is an underlying vision, defined (quoting Joseph Schumpeter) as a “pre-analytic cognitive act”. Sowell further defines a vision, “It is what we sense or feel before we have constructed any systematic reasoning that could be called a theory, much less deduced any specific consequences as hypotheses to be tested against evidence. A vision is our sense of how the world works.” Visions are a sense of the possibilities of human reason and power to act purposefully to achieve desired ends and are broadly defined as Constrained and Unconstrained. An unconstrained vision sees articulated reason as powerful and potent to shape human society, a constrained vision sees human beings as more limited by human nature and natural law. Dr. Sowell concedes that visions are rarely pure but range from strongly to weakly constrained or unconstrained. People may hold one sort of vision in a certain sphere of opinion and another in a different sphere, there are hybrid visions (Marx and John Stuart Mill are given examples) and people sometimes change predominant visions over their lifetimes. It is important to note that he does not equate constrained and unconstrained visions with the Left/ Right model of the political spectrum, nor do they strongly reflect the Libertarian/ Authoritarian dichotomy. An unconstrained vision characterizes the Utopian Socialists of the early nineteenth century (such as Fourier) but is also strongly expressed by William Godwin, considered by many to be the founder of modern Anarchism, in his Enquiry Concerning Political Justice. The unconstrained vision is more often characteristic of those who would use the coercive power of the state to affect great changes in the structure of society and human nature, but it cannot be assumed that a constrained vision leads to a blind defense of the status quo. He gives the example of Adam Smith, an exemplar of a strongly constrained vision, was an advocate of sweeping social changes such as the abolition of slavery and an end to mercantilist policies. Once grasped, Dr. Sowell’s theory makes sense of some seeming inconsistencies and contradictions in both Left and Right positions. For example, though there is a tendency for the constrained vision to predominate among the politically Conservative and free market advocates, it is not absolute or consistent. A Conservative may argue for the superior efficacy of market processes to serve the social good (as opposed to purposeful direction of the economy) but fail to see the market for illegal drugs as subject to the same laws of supply and demand as other commodities or consider the argument that the process costs of drug prohibition may be higher than the social costs of drug addiction. In fact, the phrase “consider the argument” is misleading. It is possible that the argument simply does not exist in his perceptual universe and is interpreted as advocacy for drug use. On the other end of the political spectrum, a thinker such as Paul Ehrlich (in The Population Bomb) may argue from the highly constrained view of Thomas Malthus on population and food resources, combined with an unconstrained view of the ability of the state to effectively control population and allocation of resources for the general good of mankind. And we see on both the Left and Right, visionaries holding strong beliefs about the ability of humans to deliberately shape culture to reflect whichever set of values held by their respective advocates. Though much experience in the twentieth century has shown how limited the ability of men is to design culture as if it were an engineering project, and how disastrous the attempts often are, men and women of unconstrained vision persist in their advocacy of policies intended to rid society of gender defined roles on the one hand or of behavior considered “vice” on the other. So the question arises, if the concept of the contrasting visions is hedged about with so many qualifications, is it at all useful in categorizing belief systems or explaining behavior? I believe it is highly useful. In Western civilization there exists no serious argument about the desirability of that condition expressed by the words “freedom” and “equality”. Yet in the West we find that whenever advocates of various causes argue for their sides, their definitions do not coincide, i.e. they argue past each other. Advocates of redistributionist policies, affirmative action to achieve more socioeconomic equality and a high degree of taxation and market regulation are seen as tending towards totalitarianism by advocates of a less intrusive government. Contrariwise, advocates of leaving the pursuit of the social good to voluntary and market processes are seen by political opponents as apologists for powerful and rapacious economic elites in their drive to impose a quasi-royal authority on society via economic coercion. For those who see government as a powerful engine for social engineering, it is desired results that matter. If it is possible for the state to eliminate poverty and insure socio-economic success for historically disadvantaged groups then it follows that it is immoral not to do so. Arguments that the goals lie outside the state’s competence or that process costs are too high or that the attempt itself is counterproductive will simply not register and almost inevitably must be interpreted in terms of ulterior motive. Thus a TV journalist can make a parenthetical remark on a broadcast about how African-Americans are still not as “free” as Whites in the US. One who considers freedom to be the absence of legal coercion might ask how are they not free today when all forms of legal discrimination have been abolished by Supreme Court decisions and federal law? The answer would reflect the definition of “freedom” as opportunity, a definition that will conflate “poor and disadvantaged” with “unfree”. The definition that limits freedom to a relationship of men in society where physical force or fraud in human relationships is made illegal with no further attempt to redress inequalities of wealth, education, opportunity etc, is sometimes derided as “freedom to starve”. Likewise the condition called “equality” is seen by those with opposing visions as either a process or a result, leading them to almost diametrically opposite interpretations of the term. To someone of unconstrained vision who views equality as a result, the socioeconomic lagging of certain groups behind others is prima facie evidence of externally imposed inequality (such as persistent discrimination) in society. To someone who views equality as the absence of legally imposed barriers to opportunity, the outcome is the result of values and choices and irrelevant to questions of justice as seen by people of unconstrained vision. Those with a constrained vision tend to regard socioeconomic inequalities between individuals and groups as the inevitable result of inborn human variations in ability, different cultural indoctrination in values that promote or retard economic success and individual choices. Those of unconstrained vision tend to regard them as the result of artificially imposed constraints and when inequalities persist beyond the removal of obvious constraints will keep looking for them rather than change their model of causation. Dr. Sowell has elaborated this theory far more than can be covered in a short review. He examines in detail visions of justice, power and equality and the difference between visions and paradigms, values and theories. What is important to the problem of both academic and journalistic bias is how contrasting visions lead to unconscious assumptions about how the world works, and how that affects their interpretation of events. For those of unconstrained vision, though socioeconomic equality may be a strongly held value, they are nonetheless going to tend strongly towards intellectual elitism. If articulated reason is held to be the most powerful force for the social good then it must follow that society should be lead by the most advanced and progressive thinkers. Those who view the collective wisdom of individuals operating within their own spheres of experience to be superior to the ability of others to direct their destinies will be seen as self-interested, reactionary and apologists for injustice. Those who see themselves as being in the intellectual vanguard of progress will tend to be strongly attracted to the fields of teaching, liberal arts, humanities, and journalism, and moreover, will tend to regard journalism as an extension of the teaching profession. Unconstrained visions flourish in the absence of deep experience. In business, the natural sciences and engineering, theories about the way things ought to work (within their sphere of activity) are constantly tested against the way they do in fact work: profitability, repeatable experiments and bridges that don’t fall down all serve as reality checks against extending theory further than is warranted by the facts. An academic environment tends to insulate against experience and journalism, by the nature of the news cycle, tends to expose practitioners to a superficial kind of experience, most especially among the newsreader “talking heads” who are basically presenters rather than researchers. The consequences of the predominance of this vision among many academics and journalists are subtle and powerful and may include: *Dismissal of other points of view as unworthy of reporting rather than attempting to refute them, not from motives of conscious fraud but simply from failure to take them seriously, often because of… *Attribution of motive. It noteworthy how often arguments give the “real” motive of the opposing point of view – the one thing that cannot be known for certain. Motives can be strongly inferred only by a ruthlessly honest appraisal of one’s own nature – but it is seldom the case that a partisan for a particular point of view argues that “His motive is probably thus because that is what I experience in myself.” *Unsupported parenthetical remarks among university lecturers and telejournalists. A broadcast from location often cannot be edited due to time constraints. It is interesting to note how often among the narrative of events a sentence that is unsupported comment can be slipped in. *The use of ad hominem attacks (both Direct and Circumstantial) on someone’s credibility, probably coming from the unconscious assumption that since articulated reason can show the way to the social good, then conclusions about how to achieve it must be consistent among reasonable people. Disagreement about means and ends are seen as coming from ulterior motives, villainy or stupidity. Dr. Sowell sees the theory as explaining a lot about the ideological struggles of the past two centuries – and sees no end in sight for the conflict of visions. However an appreciation of the role of visions in shaping worldviews can help make sense of opposing views for those who disagree and shows us that opposing views are not capriciously chosen or necessarily stemming from ulterior motives, but are internally self-consistent within the framework of the underlying vision. One may even hope that this appreciation may lead at least to genuine argument of the points at issue rather than character assassination and attribution of rapaciously self-interested motive. It is fairly obvious that the constrained vision is behind much economic thinking. Economics is after all fundamentally about the way that human beings allocate finite resources. It is not clear that Dr. Sowell is making a blanket condemnation of the unconstrained vision though. He has noted that in the years since he first published, Malthus (on the constrained side) has been proven consistently wrong and he has credited both William Godwin and Ayn Rand (both exponents of the doctrine of the godlike power of human reason) as contributing to the evolution of modern libertarian thought. Possibly a certain element of the unconstrained vision serves to fire the imagination and may be necessary for motivating the spirit of social reform. Only when carried to extremes does it become a demand that society be everywhere remade to conform to a vision of perfection. It also seems evident that though America was founded by men of largely constrained vision, there have been elements of both visions in our national culture from the beginning. The Founding Fathers did in fact design our federal institutions and were quite aware that they were creating a new social order by an act of will. However, they did so with a realistic appraisal of human nature, careful research of historical confederations and built upon local institutions that had been in operation for nearly two centuries. Since our beginnings American culture has reflected both utopian and pragmatic visions, a pattern that shapes our political discourse to this day. ************************************************************************************ The following chart is drawn from some of the major points of Dr. Sowell’s theory of visions. Since it is a collection of very short abstractions, responsibility for how well it represents the author’s thought rests with me. Constrained Vision: Sees human nature as fixed, unchanging, selfish and ambitious, which must be subordinated to society to some extent. Unconstrained Vision: Sees human nature as malleable, perfectible whose uncorrupted form will be expressed in the good society. ----- CV: Freedom is defined as the absence of coercion by other human beings. UV: Unfreedom seen as the absence of opportunity. ----- CV: Emphasis on process costs. Seeks optimum trade-offs. UV: Emphasis on motives and the desired results. Seeks solutions. ----- CV: Sees tradition as expressing the accumulated experience of the culture. UV: Sees tradition largely as outmoded superstition. ---- CV: Sees articulated reason as less important than “distributed knowledge” expressed in market processes. Emphasis on experience. UV: Sees articulated reason as powerful and effective. Emphasis on logic. ----- CV: Seeks the social good in making allowances for human nature, such as checks and balances in government, using mutual jealousy as a counterbalance against ambition and greed on the part of the powerful. UV: Seeks the social good in the elevation of an enlightened and progressive leadership. ----- CV: Preference for evolved systems. UV: Preference for designed systems. ----- CV: Characterized by the belief that the evils of the world can be explained by inherent characteristics of human nature. War and crime may be rational, if immoral, choices. UV: Characterized by the conviction that foolish or immoral choices explain the evils of the world. War and crime seen as aberrations. ----- CV: Tends to compare the status quo with worse alternatives. UV: Tends to compare the status quo with hypothetical perfection. ----- CV: Exemplary thinkers: Adam Smith, Thomas Hobbes, Edmund Burke, The Federalist, Thomas Malthus, de Tocqueville, Oliver Wendell Holmes, F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman… UV: Exemplary thinkers: William Godwin, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Thomas Paine, Condorcet, Fourier, Harold Laski, Thorstein Veblen, John Kenneth Galbraith, Ronald Dworkin _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From samhoodx at aol.com Tue Nov 11 18:45:24 2008 From: samhoodx at aol.com (Samuel X. Hood) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? In-Reply-To: <8CB118390E553BE-5E0-164B@WEBMAIL-MY09.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB118390E553BE-5E0-164B@WEBMAIL-MY09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB1216B0E057F6-E30-2900@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com> Hi, Pawan! No one has responded to my request so far. Which either means no one is interested, or no one knows. Since you are an IT professional, could yu please take a minute to explain? I am very curious to know. -----Original Message----- From: Samuel X. Hood Hi. I have nothing to do with IT other than using the internet, so please forgive my ignorance. I have used a dial-up modem in the past and know what a browser is - using one right now. But have not heard of a "dial-up browser". Could Pawan or someone else please tell me what a dial-up browser is? Also, what is meant by "text was in DOS mode"? Sam -----Original Message----- From: Pawan Durani Dear Yousuf , I do believe that my knowledge about Internet is probably better than yours. I am into IT services only and am in www world since I was using a 14.4 kbps dial up browser and the text was in dos mode. You may have heard of this , and I am sure never experienced it. Coming back to accusations , I am as guilty " if it assumed by some" as someone else is.As i have said , i do not challenge a moderator and neither do i like someone challenging me in the group i run. That group is almost 10 years old. If someone challenges my cause by overtly or covertly supporting or sympathising with my tormentors , i wont sit back. I dont know what CSDS or whatever is ! It doesnt matter to me. You may continue to have vote for my expulsion, and that makes me remember castro , who once said "I would not vote for the mayor. It's not just because he didn't invite me to dinner, but because on my way into town from the airport there were such enormous potholes." Best regards pawan jai Andhra , Jai Hind On 11/10/08, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Pawan > I didn't want to get into this. But here is a small point. Please do not > forget that we are on the Internet, where, even though most things come free > - but as they say in America: there is no such thing as a free lunch. So, > while Sarai list maybe a free space for you to speak out loud, someone, > somewhere is paying for the server space and the bandwidth (I don't mean > paying in that "getting paid" sense. But if you insist on the "getting paid" > angle, then even you are using that "foreign kick-back" by posting your > messages on this paid server). > > Nothing is free. Even when we sign up on Yahoo, Google or any other free > service, they get a contract signed from us (which I'm sure none of us read > fully) saying that they have the right to remove you from their free service > as and when they feel like. Now, I don't want to compare the institution of > Sarai/CSDS with that sort of corporatism, but I am sure every institution > has the right to maintain a certain decorum in a public debate. When you > subscribed to the reader-list, they must have sent you a message about what > this list is all about, and that you need to follow a certain decorum. By > accepting their subscription, you have agreed to abide by the decorum. If > you don't, then it is their right to remove. > > Even if we consider the reader-list as a truly public forum with no > institutional belonging, then, the opinion of the rest of the list-members > should suffice to remove you or anyone who crosses limits of decency. We can > have a referendum/poll here, and let the list members vote for or against > you. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > From: Pawan Durani > > Subject: [Reader-list] Whose Plot is this really ? > > To: "Sarai" , "we wi" , > "rajendra bhat" > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:38 PM > > Whose plot is to get me , Aditya and rajendra removed from > > the list ? > > > > Is it plot by an extreme leftist ? > > > > Is it a plot by those leftists who may not be writers in > > the forum but pull > > the strings ? > > > > Is it a plot of JKLF , against whom we have continuoulsy > > fought ? > > > > Is it a plot of some section of Indian agency who do not > > want us to expose > > yasin malik ? > > > > Is it a plot of rightist muslim groups ? > > > > Is it a plot of those paid writers , whose cause gets > > defeated everytime > > they make a terrorist a hero ? > > > > Is it a plot of anti Indian agency ? > > > > Is it a plot of a dictatorial member ? > > > > is it a plot of anti Kashmiri Hindu lobby ? > > > > Is this a plot of pseudo seculars ? > > > > I am just wondering whose plot is this !!!!!!! > > > > In this whole Mahabharta , i see myslef as a Abhimanyu in a > > well plotted > > Chakravyuhu . The Druyodhan is well known , the pandvas are > > on my side . > > > > The only thing to be seen is whether Dhitrashtra of this > > group is still > > blind ! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 19:31:05 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:01:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] The benefit of 'glitch' in Sarai Reader List & Digest frequency Message-ID: <333801.6827.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> When there is a 'glitch' in this List, mails are not received by subscribers within a couple of minutes of their being posted by the sender as they otherwise are during 'normal' functioning.   The benefit of this is that there is very little stacatto and furtive exchange of what are often mindless mails. A reasonable interval of say 2 hours for the mail to be delivered would, in my opinion, help both the 'sender' and the 'recipient' to cool down and do some thinking towards a more reasoned exchange.   There is a downside to this.   Being used to seeing their mail getting transmitted within a couple of minutes, the 'senders' are seen to re-post their mail, presuming there was a posting-error. This will be done away with once the 'reasonable interval' becomes the norm.   I have a comment about the frequency with which "Digests" get sent. All too frequent.   I persuaded a friend recently to subscribe to the List. Being aware of the volume of 'traffic', I advised the 'Digest' option for receiving mails. With the number of "Digests" that were received per day, it was only the physical distance that saved me from getting assaulted.   A couple of "Digests" in 24 hours is well-digested. At the current frequency it is indigestion.    Kshmendra         From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Nov 11 20:26:13 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:26:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <20081110101422.k2bjmt1p4cocw8ks@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> <13df7c120811110216q6abaec2cp3ce8322bfb17c992@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8B9C9705-54EF-4762-B5E6-154EDCD4D9E5@sarai.net> Dear Rashneek, Dear Gargi, Dear All, Thank you, Rashneek, for your generous complements about what you call my 'understanding and knowledge' in your recent post. I am not sure that I deserve them. I have never claimed that my knowledge of Kashmir is anything but incomplete and wanting. On this I am in total agreement with Rashneek, and I have never claimed otherwise. Who can even dare to state that their knowledge of the labyrinth that is Kashmir even approximates completeness? I find any claim made by anyone that they have a 'complete' knowledge about anything, let alone Kashmir, amusing at best. I hope you do too. And that is why we have a discussion list, so that the accumulation of all our 'incomplete' perspectives can help each of us construct a larger, more complex and more detailed picture of the world we live in. And I do not make any statements on the basis of authority because, unfortunately, I have an innate suspicion of any attempt to provide intellectual enquiry and debate with the ballast of authority. This is the old Indian habit of accepting something as wisdom merely because our 'elders' and 'gurus' have said so with 'authority', or because it is said with sufficient and authoritative 'devotion' to some sacred idea. I have never found this attitude actually conducive to the practical pursuit of any enquiry. That said, there remains the matter of to what extent my response to Rashneek's critique of my postings on Iconoclasm in Kashmir was 'wanting'. Since the matter has been brought up and since we have a fair amount of recent subscribers, I hope you will all excuse me if I point out, for the sake of the record. what exactly was said. My original set of postings - "Annotations to the History of Iconoclasm in Kashmir- Parts I-IV" is archived on the Reader List at - http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011030.html (and the next three postings) Rashneek's excellent four part response to me - "Iconoclasm in Kashmir -Motives and Magnitude-Parts I-IV" is archived on the Reader List at - https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-December/ 011541.html (and the next three postings) And here (below) is my response to his criticism. Since this is a concise posting I reproduce it in its entirety. I do hope this will help whosoever so desires to assess, or re-assess the merits and value of this correspondence, from which I personally benefited a great deal. regards Shuddha ------------------------------------- [Reader-list] Iconoclasm and a quest for hired limousines Thu Jan 24 10:12:35 IST 2008 http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-January/011873.html Dear Rashneek, Dear All on the List Happy new year. (so what if it is a few weeks old !) I have watched with dismay our list degenerating from the heights it ascended to with Rashneek Kher's riposte to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir. The current volley of invective is sad, and I hope we can climb out of it, as we did momentarily when Arnab, Sadan, Prem Chandravarkar and others were discussing archives, personhood and other things that make this list more worthwhile. I hope I can attend to some of those fascinating questions in coming days. But this post takes us back to the issues raised by Rashneek Kher on iconoclasm on Christmas day last month. I read with interest your (Rashneek's) long posts in reply to my annotations on iconoclasm in Kashmir, posted almost exactly a month ago . And I appreciate the hard work that Rashneek has put in. Thank your for all the notes and references. They are useful. I do however have some issues with the contents of Rashneek's argument. i do not wish this to be a very detailed post, so I will keep my arguments as brief as possible. FIrstly, it is disingenuous on your part to say that you had not said that Hindu kings had not undertaken acts of Iconoclasm. The question of iconoclasm was raised by you in a response that you wrote to my reply to Pawan Durani about genocide by Communist rulers. In my reply, I had said that I am willing to atone for the genocidial violence that stains the record of regimes that have used the name Communist to describe themselves, and asked, whether Pawan Durani would be similarly prepared to grieve and atone for those killed in order to defend the Indian nation in Kashmir. In your reply to my willingness to atone, you invoked what you implied was another history of violence in Kashmir, where you focused, or chose to focus on instances of Muslim iconoclasm. You made it appear in your post as if iconoclasm and temple destruction and Islam had some special relationship, and you did not mention non Muslim iconoclasm and temple destruction in Kashmir. Had you wanted to be objective, you could have mentioned that non Muslim rulers also destroyed temples. You chose not to. Secondly, the implications of your argument about the relative merits of different acts of iconoclasm and temple destruction based on a reading of the motives behind them are interesting. In your conceptual and moral universe, greed, lust for wealth and power (which for you are the motives of the acts of iconoclasm of the non- muslim rulers of Kashmir) seem to be somehow preferable to the iconoclasm that derives its energy from faith and proselytization alone (which you attribute solely to the three Muslim kings you mention). The iconoclasm of non-muslim Kings, though reprehensible, is in your view, less damaging in the last instance, because it is not accompanied by a faith based fanaticism. I am not interested (and never have been) in furnishing a differential framework of justification for any act of destruction. I condemn, unequivocally, acts of violence by ruling powers, no matter which ruling power perpetuates them, and for what reason. Not because I view them through the lens committed to the hierarchical and differential ordering of their motives but because I view them in terms of their consequences. The consequences, unvaryingly, are tragic, no matter what the declared, or retrospectively unveiled 'motives' may be. It matters little to me as to whether those who witness and recount such acts condemn these motives as base (as Kalhana does) or glorify them as exalted (as some of the Muslim chroniclers you mention do, though others, like Kalhan, are prepared to call them base). What matters to me is that these instances were acts of wanton destruction, and need to be recognized as such. But let us leave the absured question of whether it is 'better' to destroy for greed or the so called greater glory of god aside for the moment. As far as the attribution of motives to acts of state terror are concerned, (and the killing of people, and the destruction of their property by forces partisan to the state are acts of state terror, no matter who orders them, or when they occur) I am less than willing to accept the motives ascribed to them (which you accept without hesitation) by court chroniclers. Let us take a contemporary example to try and understand what I mean. If we follow the debate on Nandigram, which has occurred on this list and elsewhere, we will see that several people (myself included) have no hesitation in seeing the violence that has been unleashed in West Bengal by the ruling CPI(M) as being symptomatic of the avarice, greed, lust for wealth, influence and power that has completely turned the heads of the leadership of the CPI(M) led government in that state. While on the other hand, the people I would consider to be the 'court chroniclers' and apologists of the CPI(M) have insisted that in fact the CPI(M)'s actions are actually evidence of its commitment to the pro-people development policies that it claims to uphold. Substitute a commitment to what our so called Communist Parties call 'people's democracy' with what the 'court chroniclers' of the Kashmiri Salatin's called 'Islam' and you will see exactly what I mean. Or, better still, if you read the writing on Army, BSF and CRPF bunkers in Kashmir and Srinagar, which often declare that the Indian Armed Forces are protecting the 'Freedom' or 'Azaadi' of the Kashmiri population then too you will see what I mean. Every ruling power attempts to dignify its base violence with the sanctity of an exalted purpose. In Marxism we call this exalted purpose 'Ideology'. So, when the court chroniclers of the Salatins say that the purpose of loot and the destruction of property is the advancement of Islam, I am quite willing to bet that what we see is as much 'ideology' in operation as when someone like Prabhat Patnaik exhorts the CPI(M) faithful that whatever is happening in West Bengal is happening for the benefit of the people there. In both cases, the greed and lust for power are given a suitably exalted 'cover' by intellectuals who also happen to be courtiers. Strangely, if I were to accept your logic that the actions of Muslim rulers in Kashmir can be glossed only in terms of their commitment to their faith, then we have to arrive at another paradoxical conclusion - which is as follows - that the pre-eminence of Kashmiri Pandits throughout the history of medieval Kashmir, the fact that their religion and rituals remained intact, that new temples were also built and that Sanskrit scholarship continued to exist in Kashmir, is also indicative of the strength of the piety of those Muslim rulers who ensured that all this could happen. Because, the Qur'an explicitly states ' To you your faith, and to me mine', or 'that there can be no compulsion in matters of religion'. In other words, just as (following your logic) those Muslim rulers who persecuted Pandits and destroyed temples were acting as per the injunctions of their faiths, those other Muslim rulers who did not persecute Pandits and did not destroy temples were also acting out of their 'Islamic' religious motivations. In other words the 'bad' Muslims were bad because they were Muslims, and the 'good' Muslims were good because they were Muslims. I do not see how this line of reasoning can help us to understand anything, because it is internally contradictory. I have heard and read many Muslim and Islamist ideologues argue that the historical record of Islamic rule in the pre-modern world is indicative of its higher tolerance of diversity, (which is empiricially true if we take into account the broad contours of the cultural and religious histories of the Ottoman, Abbasid, Fatimid, and Mughal empires), and that this is because, Islam itself is the 'most tolerant' and peace loving of all faiths. Now, let me make it abundantly clear that I think that this line of reasoning is absolute rubbish. It is Islamist propaganda that I do not buy at all. Islam per se is neither more nor less tolerant than other faiths. And Muslim rulers are not tolerant or intolerant because they are 'Muslims'. Muslim rulers were tolerant, or not, because it was expedient for them to be so, because tolerance, or highly selective but non discriminatory forms of intolerance were effective and pragmatic instruments of rule. Similarly, I do not think that Narendra Modi organizes pogroms, and arranges for the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat because he is a good Hindu. I think he does so because this is a means by which he can rule through terror and fear. To give his actions a 'Hindu' gloss, despite the spin and representational excess with which it is surrounded, (including by him and his courtiers) would be succumbing to the error of mistaking reality for ideology, the concreteness of the deed for the slipperiness of the word. Similarly, to say, like the court chroniclers you mention that 'temple destruction' was motivated by the cause of furthering the agenda of Islam is about as meaningless, in my opinion, as saying that the tolerance and liberality of Muslim rule existed in order to further the agenda of Islam. What you are saying, and what Islamist apologists of the principle of the so called 'just caliphate' say actually amount to the same things, though you come to them from different ends and from different purposes - namely that the acts of Muslim rulers must only be seen in terms of their provenance in the sacred tenets of Islam, while the acts of non Muslim rulers can be explained by mundane motivations. This amounts, actually to a theory of 'Muslim exceptionalism' that can be used to justify and/or describe anything and everything when it is attached to any entity that is nominally Muslim, from the Islamo-Fascism of bin Laden and Ahmedinijad to the liberality and openness of Jalaluddin Rumi, even to the playful heresies of Ma'arri and Rushdie. I prefer a more simple and simutaneously more complex explaination - which sees actions and motives rooted in everyday contexts, and especially views Kingship, statecraft and the exercise of political power of any kind as a complex intersection of different kinds of motives, mainly base and mundane, mainly to do with the accumulation of wealth and the maintenance of patterns of domination by different ruling classes in different epochs. Finally, lets turn our attention a little to the manner in which you have read your sources. I notice, that the actual substantive 'temple destroyers' that you mention are none other than the familiar Sikandar But-Shikan, whose name you drag out like a cheap magic trick, again and again. You list 49 references from Jia Lal Kilam's book, forgetting to mention that temple destruction are mentioned very few times in these references. The bulk of these citations have to do with the persecution of pandits (and others) for reasons that have to do with expediency, court politics, greed for wealth and a host of other mundane factors. The few instances were Muslim fanaticism is at play are also those that are also corrected and resisted by other Muslim claimants to power. But we hardly find any specific mentions of temple destruction. This makes it difficult to believe that the quantum of temple destruction in Muslim rule was substantially different from what might have occured earlier. Generally, the behaviour of oppressive Muslim kings is just as base, just as banal, just as reprehensible as their non-Muslim predecessors. Just to give an example, (because I do not want to bore our readers with an excess of detail, an achoholic king like Haider Shah ('given to drunken orgies' in Kilam's words) makes for as good and devout a Muslim as the pork eating Shiva worshipping crypto Muslim pioneer called Harsha - whom you are happy to claim is Muslim because Kalhana uses the word 'Turushka' for him. S You conveniently cite Abdul Qayoom Rafiqi (Sufism in Kashmir) mentioing Syed Ali Hamadani's list of injunctions agains 'Zimmis' without mentioing that the term 'Zimmis' (the protected) refer to Jews and Christians, not to Hindus. The word used for Hindus is Kafir, and Rafiqui whom you cite, actually refers to Hamadani's verses stressing the equality in God's eyes of the Momin (Muslim) and the Kafir. This actually really damages your argument, as does the fact that Rafiqui explicitly mentions the fact that the fanatical excesses of his successor, Mir Mohammad Hamadani were also resisted, and defeated by another Sufi Thank you once again for the energy with which you have attempted to marshall evidence for your arguments, I am afraid, that after a dispassionate reading of your arguments, I am forced to conclude that they make up in shrillness what they lack in coherence and cogency. Keep trying, regards Shuddha PS. As long as non Kashmiri Indian soldiers continue to occupy and harass Kashmiris in Kashmir, I am afraid you will have to deal with the likes of me, commenting on the situation in Kashmir. I do this, not because I have a particular interest in what you call the 'pain' of Kashmir. I am not Kashmiri, and have no interest in giving further purchase to Kashmir self pity, regardless of the denomination that it speaks in the name of. Rather, I am interested in understanding and resisting what a prolonged period of military occupation does to the occupying power. Let the last non Kashmiri Indian soldier leave the valley, and I too, will 'cease-fire'. Until that is done, I am afraid, the skirmish will continue. Finally, at the end of your multi part missive, you exhort Pawan Durani with the words, "Be not despaired of these,limousine liberals oh my friend Pawan Durani,poor in means,we maybe,but aren't poor in passion and zest." While it is interesting to think of people who brandish their 'blackberry fuelled' enthusiasm as being 'poor in means', I must point out that all my life I have wanted at least a brief ride in a limousine on Delhi's streets. A liberal, I am not, but I really would not mind an occasional spin in a hired limousine . Alas, I have never really enjoyed the delights of one. I did notice, that on 'Homeland Day' which was celebrated with a major bash by the Panun Kashmir organization I noticed a long line of expensive automobiles outside the Chinmaya Mission Auditorium on Lodi Road in Delhi where Panun Kashmir was pledging itself anew to its homeland. I noticed in particular the several shiny grey and black Toyota Innovas, which though not limousines, are handsome vehicles. Perhaps our Kashmiri Pandit Patriot friends were there in person too. Would any of them care to lend me, or any other anti-national automobile fanatics, a nice big car for a day? On 11-Nov-08, at 8:12 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > On 11-Nov-08, at 3:46 PM, rashneek kher wrote: > >> Dear Gargi, >> >> I have really been out of this all and have stayed quite.Please >> dont drag me >> into this.In case you have read Shudda's pieces please do care to >> read mine >> too before you make statements here.I can say with authority that in >> most aspects of Kashmir including those four pieces Shudda's >> knowledge is >> incomplete and wanting. >> Yet I have admired him for his understanding and knowledge in so many >> fields. >> Well in case you wanted to do some mudslinging at me,you may just >> end up >> proving your inherent biases,thats all. >> >> Live on >> >> Rashneek >> From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Nov 11 21:11:57 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:11:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Arguing, Stammering and Spitting Message-ID: Dear Kirdar, Yousuf, Gargi, Inder, Aarti, Aashima and others I think the discussion regarding the recent accusations made on this list, despite having been occasioned by an unfortunate excess of words, have been productive. I am writing this mail by way of response to the points that many of you have raised seperately. I hope that you will excuse me for bunching them all together in one mail. I do not wish to overcrowd all our mail boxes this evening more than what has been done already. Let me say at the outset that I have learnt a great deal from the experience of having to argue with positions contrary to mine on Kashmir on this list. I have no hesitation in saying that. My request for a ban on two named individuals does not, as might be noticed, involve everyone who takes a different position (and there are shades within these differences) from mine on Kashmir, India, nationalism, Islam or the state form; not Rashneek (though he did on occasion lob at me words that imply that I was a 'terrorist' or maintained relationships with 'terrorists') not Chanchal Malviya, not Vedavati, not Lalit Ambardar, and certainly not Kshmendra Kaul. I respect, welcome, enjoy difference. And though I think that we must not let a discussion on Kashmir or India or confessional identities drown the list, I maintain that they are important, necessary and have their place. However, I do agree with Kirdar, that apart from the fact that Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul have practiced libel, (which in my view is sufficient reason to eject them from this list) they also do take up a lot of the time and energy of the list by compelling us to respond, over and over again to the same kind of posts. I do not think this is good for the health of the list. This is my personal opinion, though of course, I will abide by the evolving consensus of the list and the decision of the moderator. There is hardly ever anything new or even reasonably eye-opening in what Aditya Raj Kaul and Pawan Durani say. Other than 'Yasin Malik is a terrorist', 'X, Y, Z are paid agents', or statements that suggest that anyone who questions the methods and tactics of the Indian state's so called 'war on terror' is a sympathiser with terrorism. if not a terrorist themselves, and the occasional tired anti- totalitarian-left jibe (aimed at whom, I do not know, because i have yet to come across a Reader List poster singing peans to Stalin, Mao, Enver Hoxha or Pol Pot), they have very little else to say. Because this is a publicly archived list, someone or the other ends up having to respond to their posts, for the sake of the record, just as repetitively as them. Which in a sense continues to drown and crowd out other voices, other issues, other tones and registers of writing. This is why, though I will continue to engage with an Indian nationalist position on Kashmir honestly, critically and with all due respect as and when it emanates from other list members, I will have no difficulty in bidding farewell to the exhausting business of finding myself feeling compelled to deal with Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul on a daily, sometimes hourly basis. Also because, I do not believe that the endless clarifications and corrections that I have to post to their outpourings do not necessarily lead to a significant increase in anyone's knowledge. They merely do damage control. And if there is no damage, there will be no need for an eternity of damage control. That might free up some more time and energy for me to share some of my other interests and curiositites, and engage and learn from the interests and curiosities of other list members. My life, let me assure you, does not begin and end at the Banihal Pass. Incidentally, Pawan Durani is incorrect when he says in his last post that i demanded his exclusion once before on this list, and then apologized. I did accuse him once of defamation, and asked for an explaination, but unlike this time, did not ask for a ban. And once it was pointed out to me by him that he had not said exactly what I had thought he had said (that I was a member of an 'ML type of organization' ) i apologized. I find bans repugnant, and I find myself compelled to demand one this time, because I think that a concrete offense has been committed, and that this offence, since it violates the trust and confidence that we all share in this list is sufficient reason for me to demand the removal of the two concerned individuals. I was waiting to see if there was even the slightest hint of remorse, regret or apology in their conduct, subsequent to the posting that I made detailing their false allegations. I have seen none. I personally think that we do not need to engage any further with these individuals. Aashima has raised a very important and interesting point, and I think it relates to what I have just said. How does the textual equivalent of 'spitting' relate to what we in Raqs mean by stammers, mumbles, tics etc.? In the text that she refers to, (a link to which on the e-flux journal was posted by Jeebesh some days ago) we argue for a sympathy for the illegible and caution against the overwhelming demand for legibility that assails us all. My understanding of our reservations regarding the cult of legibility is as follows. We are often at a loss about what to say, circumstances overwhelm us, our situations become way too complicated, we are too ecstatic, grieved, wonder-struck, or ill or nervous to be legible. We stammer, we mumble, we scrawl, we let our tics run away with us. There is a way in which these circumstances force our somatic, phatic registers to take over. Our vocal cords and vocalization musculature overrule our ability to form clear or coherent or legible sounds, our fingers fail our ability to write letters, we blush, we shiver. A stammer occurs often when we are forced to say things that we might hesitate to otherwise, or we are forced to speak in conditions that are not comfortable. Or there is some other A spit (and its textual-discursive analogue in the form of invective) on the other hand is a deliberate expectoration. it is quite different from a retch, a belch, a drool or the involuntary spasm that accompanies a bout of vomiting. In each of these our ability to control what escapes the oral orifice is compromised by the dire straits our body finds itself in. A spit (the kind that I am talkng about) on the other hand is the result of a considered decision to eject a projectile of concentrated hostility. You have to 'work up' a spit. Try doing it, and you will see exactly what I mean. A false accusation is a similar thing. The person who makes it knows that he has no ground to stand on while making the accusation, and still goes ahead and makes it. It can only stems from the arrogance that underwrites the notion that one will not be challenged, or if challenged, one has enough lung or muscle power to 'take care' of the challenge. If a stammer is the kind of response that happens when we don't know what to say, then a false accusation (a verbal-textual spit) is the deliberate saying of that which we know we have no reason to say. In the first instance, the imposition is on the speaker, and in the second, on the listener-reader. They point, in my view, to two different ends of the dynamics of utterance and power. I hope I have been clear. Thank you for the opportunity to think this through. regards, Shuddha ---------------------------------------- (for those who might be interested, from Stammer, Mumble, Sweat, Scrawl, and Tic Raqs Media Collective E-Flux Journal, Issue 0, November 2008 To be legible is to be readable. To be legible is to be an entry in a ledger—one with a name, place, origin, time, entry, exit, purpose and perhaps a number. To be legible is to be coded and contained. Often, when asked an uncomfortable question, or faced with an unsettling reality, the rattled respondent ducks and dives with a stammer, a mumble, a sweat, a scrawl, or a nervous tic. The respondent may not be lying, but may not be interested in either offering a captive legible truth to the interrogator or to his circumstances. An insistence on legibility produces its own shadow, the illegible. Between the bare-faced lie and the naked truth lies the zone of illegibility—the only domain where the act of interpretation retains a certain ontological and epistemic significance. We read each other for signs, not because we are opaque, or necessarily wish for opacity, but because our desires, fears, and experiences still require the life-giving breath of translation. The transparency that brooks no translation also requires no engagement. The tree of life, and therefore of art, would be barren were it not for the fruit of occasional misunderstandings. to read more - see - http://www.e-flux.com/journal/view/14 From sen.gargi at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 21:31:59 2008 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:31:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <13df7c120811110216q6abaec2cp3ce8322bfb17c992@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rashneek, I¹ll begin by apologising as I did not mean to drag you into anything, least of all into a list that you don¹t wish to be a part of. However, when you sent them I read through all the four rejoinders to Shuddha¹s series that you sent to this list. I was not discussing those. I was simply making the point that to remove Aditya Raj Kaul and Pawan Durrani would not be in keeping with the spirit of this list AND that they, and to some extent you and Khemendra, have provoked some of the finest writings on this list. Allow me to also discuss *Shuddha* as a virtual entity to be found on this list rather than a real flesh and blood person who perhaps exists and lives also. I find often that you, Aditya, Pawan, can take him to heights that are different from his normal scholarly stance. The recent rejoinder on stupidity ­ Aditya and Pawan don¹t want to be called intellectuals, they are offended by *stupid* so the choice provided was imbecile or idiot. And this virtual entity called Shuddha is not the only one to be so positively provoked ­ there is actually a rather long list. I can quote many such rejoinders that left me chuckling. Now in the midst of the truly terrible times we are witnessing - yes terrible time despite the election in the US - I find these pieces utterly and truly delightful and they stay in some chuckling part of my consciousness, that part that allows one to live through times like this. So my point was why cut off such founts of good writing ­ even if they are bigots and idiots? What they provoke is often hilarious, poignant, reflective, wise and inspiring. Having said that Rashneek I must also say that I was quite moved by one of your last posts on the aftermath of the Amarnath yatra and the ludicrousness of what happened [ Ah, good old tolerance! by Shyam Kaul] I don¹t know why you have stopped writing, but such pieces are treasured by many. Gargi PS: Pawan, thanks for the red salute. But I prefer Pink, although alas without perhaps the wisdom Akshay Khanna alludes to. You could try *jai bhim* also. I can claim neither as my own but resonate with both. And do please respond to the challenges to your allegations that Shuddha and Arti are paid to write on this list. Re: [Reader-list] On 11/11/08 3:46 PM, "rashneek kher" wrote: > Dear Gargi, > > I have really been out of this all and have stayed quite.Please dont drag me > into this.In case you have read Shudda's pieces please do care to read mine > too before you make statements here.I can say with authority that in most > aspects of Kashmir including those four pieces Shudda's knowledge is > incomplete and wanting. > Yet I have admired him for his understanding and knowledge in so many fields. > Well in case you wanted to do some mudslinging at me,you may just end up > proving your inherent biases,thats all. > > Live on > > Rashneek > >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> From epk at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 11 21:55:07 2008 From: epk at xs4all.nl (Eric Kluitenberg) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:25:07 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] By-Pass: Everyday Life and Contemporary Urbanism in India and China, Final Program & Abstracts - De Balie, Amsterdam, November 15 Message-ID: <57FAD606-9575-40C3-863C-3E5A78DDA6A0@xs4all.nl> F I N A L P R O G R A M & A B S T R A C T S By-Pass Everyday Life and Contemporary Urbanism in India and China International symposium www.debalie.nl/bypass De Balie, Amsterdam Saturday November 15; Time | 10.00 - 17.00 hrs Admission | € 17,50 / 12,50 (including lunch) For the first time the majority of the world population today lives in cities. A significant part of the new urban expansion in the past decade has been in Asia, where urban expansion, crisis and mass migration emerged in the context of a boom culture. By-Pass is an international symposium about urban culture and everyday life in the rapidly transforming mega cities of India and China. The symposium will bring together a renowned group of scholars and practitioners to examine these changes specifically at the ground level. Here, urban structures are continuously reconfigured by 'the Bypass'. The bypass is not formal, but at the same time, more than the informal forms that have always existed in cities. The Bypass is a tactic that is deployed by all kinds of urban groups - slum dwellers engaging in incremental development; street level entrepreneurs establishing newer networks of production and selling; civil society organisations and formal planners short-circuiting policy and planning processes, private and governmental agencies employing tactical ways to assemble land, urban media forms that disrupt official channels etc. The language of the Bypass cannot be articulated through mainstream ideas of formality, legality, planning, public etc. - it warrants a newer creative engagement. Asian cities offer an important site for this engagement. The symposium will focus on discussing and engaging with the complexities of the Bypass. This will be done through an exploration of newer ideas on incrementality, entrepreneurship, piracy, mapping, networks, media-urbanism and image of the city by architects, urbanists, historians, geographers and media scholars. By-Pass is organised by De Balie in Amsterdam in collaboration with Sarai in Delhi and CRIT in Mumbai. With: Awadhendra Sharan (Historian, Delhi), Juan Du (Architectural theorist, University of Hong Kong), Martijn de Waal (Media scholar, Amsterdam / University of Groningen), Prasad Shetty (CRIT, Mumbai), Ranjani Mazumdar (Film maker and theoretician, Delhi), Ravi Sundaram (Sarai, Delhi), Rupali Gupte (Architect, Mumbai), Solomon Benjamin (Political scientist Bangalore / University of Toronto), Wing-Shing Tang (Social geographer, Hong Kong),. Symposium editors: Prasad Shetty (CRIT); Ravi Sundaram (Sarai); Merijn Oudenampsen (Urban sociologist); Eric Kluitenberg (De Balie). A web dossier has been set up for the symposium, which brings together various background materials: www.debalie.nl/bypass. The symposium can also be followed live via internet at: www.debalie.nl/live . Recordings of the symposium will later be made available in the web dosssier. ------------------------------- SPEAKERS Awadhendra Sharan is a historian and Fellow at the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (Delhi, India). His work involves research that connects environmental issues to urban space, with reference to the city of Delhi. He also works with Sarai, Delhi and offers guest lectures at the School of Planning and Architecture, Delhi and School of Environmental Studies, Delhi University. Juan Du is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Architecture, University of Hong Kong and Principal of IDU architecture. She teaches architectural design and contemporary urban theory. She has practiced and taught in the United States, Europe and China and co-curated “Performative-Cities" in the 2007 Shenzen - Hong Kong Biennale Martijn de Waal is a researcher on urban and social issues and digital media at the University of Groningen and the University of Amsterdam. Contributed an essay on Chinese urban visuality to the recent anthology "The Chinese Dream" published by the Dynamic City Foundation (Rotterdam / Beijing), Fall 2008. Ranjani Mazumdar is an Independent Filmmaker & Associate Professor of Cinema Studies at the School of Arts & Aesthetics, Jawaharlal Nehru University (New Delhi, India). Her publications and films focus on urban culture, popular cinema, gender and the cinematic city. She is the author of "Bombay Cinema: An Archive of the City" (University of Minnesota Press, 2007). Her current research focuses on globalization and film culture, film and history and Bombay's cinematic city in the 1950s Rick Dolphijn is assistant professor at Humanities, Utrecht University, where he lectures and writes on communication theory, cultural theory, philosophy of science, media theory, linguistics, art and cultural studies. He has visited and studied cities in China and India and has written on Asian urbanism and Deleuzian theory in architecture magazine Volume, amongst others. Rupali Gupte is an architect and urbanist. She works is a Senior Lecturer at the Kamala Raheja Institute of Architecture (Mumbai, India) and is also an executive member of CRIT, Mumbai. As an urban researcher she has worked in India and Africa and lectured at UK, US, and the Netherlands. She recently showed a work on mapping post industrial landscapes at Manifesta 7: The European Art Biennale in Italy, Her works includes studies of housing types in Mumbai, a novel on a semi-fictional history of Mumbai's urbanism and writing on the city's tactical infrastructures. Solomon Benjamin is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Political Science, University of Toronto. He researches the way land (mostly incrementally developed), economy (mostly constituted around small inter-connected firms), locates in a mainstream 'everyday politics'. Disrupting high modernism. The emergent urbanism poses new conceptual spaces beyond the current anxiety with progressive policy and activism. Wing Shing Tang is Associate Professor, Department of Geography, Hong Kong Baptist University. His research focuses on urban (re)development and planning in Hong Kong and mainland China. Current research projects include "land (re)development in Hong Kong: the land (re)development regime, hegemonic construction and the people", "utopian urbanism in Hong Kong", "the geographies of power of sustainable development in Hong Kong: an inside-out approach", "the urban revolution in China: meeting Foucault with Gramsci and Lefebvre", ------------------------------- PROGRAMME 10.00 - 10.30 Introduction The Conference as intervention Eric Kuitenberg The problematic of Asian Urbanism Ravi Sundaram Session 1 - Setting the Frame Prasad Shetty (Moderator) 10.30 - 10.50 Three Petitions and a City: the Public and the Private Awadhendra Sharan 10.50 - 11.10 People's Activities in an Urban Village in Guangzhou: Beyond Informality Wing Shing Tang 11.10 - 11.30 Indian & Chinese Occupancy Urbanism: Disrupting the Nation State & appropriating High Modernism Solomon Benjamin 11.30 - 11.50 Back to the Future Juan Du 11.50 - 12.30 Discussion 12.30 - 13.30 - LUNCH BREAK Session 2 - Imagining the City Eric Kluitenberg (moderator) 13.30 - 13.50 Workforms + Playforms Rupali Gupte 13.50 - 14.10 Two City Forms: Axionometric Vision and Linear Perspective Rick Dolphijn 14.10 - 14.30 The Urban Fringe Ranjani Mazumdar 14.30 - 14-50 Green Tea, Black Coffee, Splendid Cities? Urban culture in contemporary Chinese visual culture Martijn De Waal 14.50 - 15.30 Discussion 15.30 - 16.00 - BREAK Session 3 - Open Session & Closing Discussion Merijn Oudenampsen (chair) 16.00 - 17.00 Round-Table with Solomon Benjamin, Rupali Gupte, Juan Du, Rick Dolphijn & Ravi Sundaram ------------------------------- ABSTRACTS Three Petitions and a City AWADHENDRA SHARAN In December1985 oleum gas leaked from a unit of the Shriram Foods and Fertilisers industry located in Delhi. Coincidentally, earlier the same year the lawyer-activist M. C. Mehta had filed a public petition before the Supreme Court of India arguing that the operations of the factory were hazardous for the communities that lived in the vicinity. In that same year, Mehta filed two other writ petitions, subsequently referred to as the Delhi land Use Case and Vehicular Pollution case. I will address these three petitions, in their invocation of the idea of 'public', in this presentation. The presentation is by way of an initial inquiry into the limit of the idea of the 'public' to suggest other ways in which we may imagine a new project of the commons in the contemporary. Mehta had suffered no personal injury. He spoke instead as a citizen, acting as a custodian of public rights and interests. The burden of the petitions was several. Local authorities had failed to discharge their public functions. Smoke and highly toxic gases were being allowed to pass into the air and effluents were being discharged into the water. Industries, both hazardous and illegal, were functioning unchecked in the city, posing constant danger to millions of people and causing diseases ranging from tuberculosis to asthama, skin diseases to cancer. Toxic wastes, their collection, treatment and disposal, were ill attended to. There were also problems in the rural areas of the city, with many legal and illegal insecticide units operating in them. Humans were not alone to suffer, Mehta argued, the toxics affecting tress, shrubs and agricultural crops too. Historic sites of the city - the Red Fort, Jama Masjid, Old Fort, India Gate and Jantar Mantar - were also mute sufferers. My presentation is about the slippages between the different terms deployed in Mehta's petition - polluting, hazardous, (il)legal, dangerous, (un)safe, rural/urban to argue that it is precisely through such slippages that what is imagined as the 'public interest' related to the 'environment' remains always necessarily enmeshed in other dimensions of the urban everyday that are about spaces for living and work, modes of travel and recreation. Indeed, I shall argue, the plea for better environment may potentially also pose new risks for these other spaces/ modes of being. One response to this, in India and elsewhere, has been to re-enact the public, through arguments roughly phrased as 'claims to the city.' This, I shall suggest, is increasingly inadequate both in terms of understanding the contemporary everyday and as a mode of intervention in it. Back to the Future Juan Du With an official municipal history of only 25 years, Shenzhen's stunning speed of urban development has been the subject of much analysis and debate. While some applaud the city as a successful model of modern planning in Asia, others consider it devoid of history and culture. However, these opposing positions overlook the very complex and nuanced process of urbanization that is contemporary Shenzhen. The historical presence and transformations of the former agrarian villages within the city is one of the most important instruments for the on-going urbanization process in Shenzhen. Developed outside of the jurisdiction of municipal planning and regulations, these village sites have each become urban environments in their own right, together presenting a rich variety of informal modes of urbanization. Analysis of these village sites presents a re- evaluation of existing theories on the development process of Shenzhen and demands radical reformation to the process of modern urban planning. Green Tea, Black Coffee, Splendid Cities? Urban culture in contemporary Chinese visual culture MARTIJN DE WAAL In the past decade or so, China, a country of farmers, has become a nation dominated by megacities. Where once farmers plowed the yellow earth, now mirror-glassed high rises have appeared to demarcate yet another emerging 'CBD' (Central Business District). Official ideology - and its visual culture - saw a similar turn. Up to the era of the cultural revolution, the countryside was eulogized, cities were vilified. Now modern cities are portrayed as places of joy, as sites where one can gloriously get rich. Postcards, tv series, billboards, city marketing videofilms eagerly portray this newly minted Chinese Dream of middle class life in a modern urban setting. But how do these representations relate to more direct experiences of city life? And where can we find the dissonants to this new official urban mythology? In the work of some contemporary Chinese artists and filmmakers we find a more critical eye on the new urban society that is emerging in China. The Urban Fringe RANJANI MAZUMDAR Globalization in India has brought about many shifts in the nature of the relationship between cinema and the urban experience. These shifts need to be located within a map where the expansion of television, the rise of multiplexes, the global circulation of DVDs and the rise of a new cinephile culture, have led to speculations about a new imaginary film spectator who can handle a different kind of cinema in India. It is this contemporary context that has given rise to a cinema on the margins of the popular, which we can provisionally call the Fringe. Emerging from the periphery of the Film industry, the Fringe is struggling against prevailing forms to create a new cinematic language. These films speak in a global language to evoke a crumbling urban world which appears unfamiliar in relation to the melodramatic form commonly associated with India's popular cinema. Influenced by Hollywood, European, and Asian cinema, the Fringe circulates like a virus alongside the delirium of globalisation today. In a context where "Bollywood" has emerged as a chapter in Indian diplomacy and advertisement for India's global rise, the new urban fringe suggests a very different world. Two City Forms: Axionometric Vision and Linear Perspective RICK DOLPHIJN In order to conceptualize two very different strategies for urban change, art history offers us two perspectives (that of axonometric vision and that of linear perspective) that give us better insight in how cities, especially in its European and in its East-Asian appearance, are subjected to processes of Change. Connected to the Deleuzian concepts of the fold/ the unfold and of the this presentation intends to show in what way our two main concepts allow us to rethink concepts like public space, the street, the facade and several other ideas important for architectural theory. Workforms + Playforms RUPALI GUPTE Modern Urban Planning deals with issues of Working, Living and Leisure through ideas of ideal standards and equitable provisions. These then get manifested into regulations, neatly drawn out urban plans and rules for their enforcement. These ways of planning have been dominant in Indian contexts as well. However contemporary Indian urbanism has shown that it spurs multiple patterns of everyday life, of inhabiting urban space, that somehow do not fit in the neatly parcelled plans. Work, living and leisure manifest themselves in multiple ways, occupying unique spaces in the city. This paper will discuss two studio projects conducted at the Kamla Raheja Institute for Architecture in Mumbai titled: Workforms and Playforms that build on this understanding. The paper would not only discuss the various, often bizarre, patterns through which work, living and leisure are acted out by various constituents in the city; but also the difficulties in mapping them through conventional methods. The paper will further discuss innovative methods that were explored in the studio to map these conditions and possibilities that design interventions provide in these fragile situations. Indian & Chinese Occupancy Urbanism: Disrupting the Nation State & appropriating High Modernism SOLOMON BENJAMIN Indian and Chinese cities show significant urbanisms to lie beyond the ambit of the nation state to disrupt and appropriate policy frames to be 'globally competitive'. We look at Bombay, Bangalore, as well as 'Small commodity' centers like Yiwu in China's Wenzhou districts. Essential to this politics is local authority's embedding in popular society via land -- reconstituted into complex tenure forms to defy centralized planning. Such embeddings spur an everyday politics where real estate surpluses fuel an economy of 'suitcase entrepreneurs'. These economic networks shape a vibrant globalization 'from below'. Not surprisingly, these developments are un-palatable to international investors: High powered NYC lawyers cry foul over 'legal protectionism' around unplanned land development in Guangzhou's cities; Procter and Gamble hired academics portray Yiwu to the US Senate, as centers of: 'piracy, counterfeit culture, and even possible terrorist funding'. These urbanisms also disrupt Mike Davis's narrative of future cities as violent slum-scapes, rife with social and political disintegration. Instead a more useful conceptual frame comes from legal pluralism derived 'porous legalities', notions of 'subaltern cosmopolitanism', and a consideration of the Everyday State' that returns us to Polyani's economy embedded into society. People's Activities in an Urban Village in Guangzhou: Beyond Informality WING SHING TANG One prominent feature of China's current urban landscape is the prevalence of 'villages-in-the-city', or simply abbreviated as 'urban villages' (in Chinese, it is called Chengzhongcun). Chengzhongcun is the outcome of urban encroachment on rural villages, sometimes former production brigades and clan villages, both inside, and on the fringe of, the city. Nowadays, tens of thousands of migrant workers relocate, mostly temporarily, from the countryside to these urban villages to sell their labour power in the city, while some indigenous villagers might have already relocated themselves to newly built apartments elsewhere. Concomitantly, a kind of new urban community starts to form in the city. There, people live a way of life different from the urban, which is now very much commodified, albeit still under étatisation one way or other. The way of life found in Chenzhoncun is usually characterised as self-help or informal by the literature, in that their non-state behaviour of, on the part of indigenous villagers, renting land for real estate development and building extra floor space on the top of their own houses for renting-out purposes, and, on the part of migrant workers, entering into residential contract with owner-occupiers, opening new petit-bourgeois, small labour-intensive businesses of offering catering, personal services, and transport and errand services to service the community. This paper challenges the self-help or informal concept and, instead, argues to understand their new way of life as a kind of innovative techniques to survive in the context of widespread hegemonic and sub-hegemonic construction. This argument is illustrated with a case study of Shipai Village in the city of Guangzhou. www.debalie.nl/bypass From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 22:33:39 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:33:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: References: <13df7c120811110216q6abaec2cp3ce8322bfb17c992@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811110903s115fdd0ave8d8a95384239047@mail.gmail.com> Dear gargi, pls do share with me a post where I have accused Arti of receiving money. you have accused me of doing that. I find Shuddha nothing but idiotic . he has a problem if kashmiri hindus progress and own cars.he should have been appreciating the progress of few. he has never even remotely mentioned th wealth of Ya in Malik and property he owns in residency road. I like pink too pawn On 11/11/08, Gargi Sen wrote: > Dear Rashneek, > I¹ll begin by apologising as I did not mean to drag you into anything, least > of all into a list that you don¹t wish to be a part of. However, when you > sent them I read through all the four rejoinders to Shuddha¹s series that > you sent to this list. I was not discussing those. I was simply making the > point that to remove Aditya Raj Kaul and Pawan Durrani would not be in > keeping with the spirit of this list AND that they, and to some extent you > and Khemendra, have provoked some of the finest writings on this list. > > Allow me to also discuss *Shuddha* as a virtual entity to be found on this > list rather than a real flesh and blood person who perhaps exists and lives > also. I find often that you, Aditya, Pawan, can take him to heights that are > different from his normal scholarly stance. The recent rejoinder on > stupidity ­ Aditya and Pawan don¹t want to be called intellectuals, they are > offended by *stupid* so the choice provided was imbecile or idiot. And this > virtual entity called Shuddha is not the only one to be so positively > provoked ­ there is actually a rather long list. I can quote many such > rejoinders that left me chuckling. Now in the midst of the truly terrible > times we are witnessing - yes terrible time despite the election in the US > - I find these pieces utterly and truly delightful and they stay in some > chuckling part of my consciousness, that part that allows one to live > through times like this. > > So my point was why cut off such founts of good writing ­ even if they are > bigots and idiots? What they provoke is often hilarious, poignant, > reflective, wise and inspiring. > > Having said that Rashneek I must also say that I was quite moved by one of > your last posts on the aftermath of the Amarnath yatra and the ludicrousness > of what happened [ Ah, good old tolerance! by Shyam Kaul] I don¹t know why > you have stopped writing, but such pieces are treasured by many. > > Gargi > > PS: Pawan, thanks for the red salute. But I prefer Pink, although alas > without perhaps the wisdom Akshay Khanna alludes to. You could try *jai > bhim* also. I can claim neither as my own but resonate with both. > > And do please respond to the challenges to your allegations that Shuddha and > Arti are paid to write on this list. > > > > > > Re: [Reader-list] > > > On 11/11/08 3:46 PM, "rashneek kher" wrote: > >> Dear Gargi, >> >> I have really been out of this all and have stayed quite.Please dont drag >> me >> into this.In case you have read Shudda's pieces please do care to read >> mine >> too before you make statements here.I can say with authority that in most >> aspects of Kashmir including those four pieces Shudda's knowledge is >> incomplete and wanting. >> Yet I have admired him for his understanding and knowledge in so many >> fields. >> Well in case you wanted to do some mudslinging at me,you may just end up >> proving your inherent biases,thats all. >> >> Live on >> >> Rashneek >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 01:10:59 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:10:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Symposium on the Global Financial Crisis Message-ID: <98f331e00811111140u525b2531ua765c5c9fae660c9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, Over the past two months, we have witnessed the unfolding of a financial crisis, which first surfaced within the United States and has since then spread across the world. This is being widely held as the biggest crisis to hit the advanced capitalist countries since the Great Depression of the 1930s. The present crisis is expected to have serious implications for the advanced economies as well as the developing countries; for the international financial architecture; and also for the process of globalisation. In order to discuss these issues a Symposium is being organised by Anveshan, Delhi Science Forum & Economic Research Foundation. Details are presented below: WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS? Speakers: Prof. Prabhat Patnaik, Deputy Chairman, Kerala Planning Board Prof. Samir Amin, Director, Third World Forum Comrade Sitaram Yechury, Polit Bureau Member, CPI (M) Prof. C.P.Chandrashekhar, CESP, JNU Prof. Jayati Ghosh, CESP, JNU Chair: Shri S.P.Shukla, Former Finance Secretary, GoI Monday, 17th November, 2008 4.00 p.m. Speaker's Hall, Constitution Club, Rafi Marg New Delhi All are cordially invited for the programme. Regards, Prakash From vivek at sarai.net Wed Nov 12 10:44:08 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:44:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <545178.648.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <545178.648.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <491A6620.3000102@sarai.net> Kshemendra, I'm sure Gordimer said what she said with all good intentions, I was not implying otherwise. However, as you must know, most Black Americans can anyway trace an ancestry back not only to Africans, but also to Europeans and Native Americans at the very least. And this is not just a matter of genetics--it's profoundly true as a matter of cultural heritage as well. This does not take away from the reductiveness with which these matters are often presented in public discourse. So even a "full" Black American (by Gordimer's dubious definition) in the white house would *still* symbolise "the importance and potential of pluralism"-- as does not only Obama's genetic circumstance (in a very simplistic way), but also the composition and conduct of his campaign. I'm surprised that Gordimer would be so hung up on genetic precision (maybe it's just the reporter who gave an offhand, joking comment undue importance) but I wonder if, in the back of her mind, she was using Obama to fight a shadow rhetorical battle relating to current South African politics... Vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Nadine Gordimer seems to have been very assertive in her comments which carried positivity. She does not appear to be enouraging any debate over whether Obama is "really black". She said (as reported): > > """""He's been celebrated as a black man. But it's not being pointed out that he's half black and half white. To me, it symbolically represents a kind of advancement in recognising the human tribe as one.""""" > > List member V Ramaswamy attended the lecture by Nadine Gordimer in Kolkatta and had this to say: > > """" Asked about the Obama victory, she clarified that Obama was not a "black" man, he was actually half black and half white, and thus symbolises the importance and potential of pluralism.""""" > > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > > From: Vivek Narayanan > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > To: "Nicholas Ruiz III" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:18 AM > > Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) > racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only > relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. > > Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that only > points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised > rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He uses a > contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against Black > Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is how > completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and as an > activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would > understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being > innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not > getting this, > Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential support > base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was more in > touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul suggests; > or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. > > Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* that > Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say > whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) > offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the party > > who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming > months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on > just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved > significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it has > gone away only entangles us further. > > Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. For all > he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This > has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's > try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to come > into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually > points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, and I > think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to critique > and challenge Obama] > > Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's > comments > equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's ancestry is > Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began > emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US > and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally > accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South > Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites > settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social world in > places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native > American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine Gordimer > apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less > sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local wine > shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- > he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically > tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that Nader, > Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the > dramaturgy of racialised politics. > > Vivek > > Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > >> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems to >> > be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the irrelevant nature > of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will make > the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary > surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a U.S. > president of a different hue... > >> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race >> > element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial > phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an attempt to > eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has relegated, > for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media coverage and > commentary... > >> NRIII >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >> Editor, Kritikos >> http://intertheory.org >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Paul Miller >> To: Nicholas Ruiz III >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >> >> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally >> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political >> > > >> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. >> >> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in >> > African > >> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would >> > > >> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive >> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's >> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. >> >> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a >> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation > >> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the >> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in >> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in >> > > >> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's >> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's >> > "Black > >> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the >> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. >> >> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think >> > > >> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and >> balanced." >> >> in peace, >> Paul >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >> >> >> >>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >>> >>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of >>> Obama and McCain... >>> >>> NRIII >>> >>> >>> >>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>> Editor, Kritikos >>> http://intertheory.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Paul Miller >>> To: V Ramaswamy >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>> >>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at >>> > Dartmouth > >>> University. >>> >>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc >>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >>> >>> OK - response: >>> >>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of >>> > hybridity: > >>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public >>> discourse? No. >>> >>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that >>> > Obama was > >>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage >>> (as Nader's comment was). >>> >>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if >>> > in > >>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up >>> > about > >>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds >>> > of > >>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be >>> > outraged. > >>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, >>> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got >>> > lost > >>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >>> >>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW >>> > Griffith's film "Birth > >>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and >>> > showed > >>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm >>> > not > >>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African >>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's >>> > an > >>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support >>> with his comments. >>> >>> in peace, >>> Paul >>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open >>>> > letter". I believe > >>>> that was >>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>>> "Uncle >>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they >>>> > perceived as a > >>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>>> white >>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>>> > > >>>> oneself >>>> within that. >>>> >>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle >>>> > Tom's Cabin", > >>>> by >>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>>> silently >>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, >>>> > whom > >>>> he >>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>>> rejects. >>>> >>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called >>>> > "Uncle > >>>> Tom" a >>>> few times. >>>> >>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few >>>> > times. > >>>> I don't >>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He >>>> > has a > >>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>>> certain >>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>>> ultimately >>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I >>>> > was > >>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>>> > > >>>> how >>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>>> >>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to >>>> > say > >>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in >>>> > his > >>>> "open >>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding >>>> > Obama's > >>>> bending over >>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>>> based >>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>>> >>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>>> to be >>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>>> that >>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>>> that >>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I >>>> > would also like > >>>> to think >>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>>> people can >>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>>> what has >>>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>>> >>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a >>>> > sore, > >>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>>> Obama. He is >>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life >>>> > that > >>>> one's >>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. >>>> > "With enemies > >>>> like >>>> these, who needs friends!" >>>> >>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's >>>> > article on > >>>> Obama >>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And >>>> > a > >>>> blog >>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> >>>> V Ramaswamy >>>> Calcutta >>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: >>>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 12 11:21:23 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:51:23 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Frantz Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks In-Reply-To: <491A6620.3000102@sarai.net> References: <545178.648.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <491A6620.3000102@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi Vivek, Kshemendra, Nicholas - I have a little quote from one of the seminal texts of post colonial discourse that I think still echoes over the Obama debate: Black Skin, White Masks: "The Negro and Language": "For it is implicit that to speak is to exist absolutely for the other. // The black man has two dimensions. One with his fellows, the other with the white man. A Negro behaves differently with another Negro. The this self-division is a direct result of colonialist subjugation is beyond question. . . ." Let's reverse engineer that phrase and see what pops out of the logic of diaspora that Obama represents. Is he white or black? Both or neither? If you apply the context vs content breakdown of the unease that Obama's presidency strikes in Southern whites, it's that their role is being displaced and reclaimed. They are artifacts of a different era. If you read stuff like Camus's The Stranger, and compare it to the alienation of U.S. soldiers occupying Iraq, there's still a resonance: an occupied territory, whether it's the Confederate States after the Civil War, or the Iraq of today, creates insurgency in the struggle to reclaim identity. That's the way I see Bush - the last colonial vector of the Enlightenment, the last gasp of the Civil War. The red states and blue states have been caught in a vortex of remixes. Liberty, Justice, Equality at Guantanamo! The right to testify! The right to an attorney and to know the charges being leveled at you! Things like that have been thrown into the dustbin of history by Bush, but the idea is that these concepts can be re-animated. That's precisely what is going on at the moment: reclamation of public will to imagine a different world. I really think that the "they" of this transformation - the Bush-Mccain demographic: are now "The Other" - poor uneducated whites who now face globalization without the tools of the average worker of places like China or India (math, physics, etc are not "Evangelical values"). I'm curious to see how the reverse "Other" fares in this globalized economy based on information. It's now about "confidence in the markets" - it certainly isn't about whether the earth was made in 7 days, or how to count people are 3/4 of a human for tax purposes a la that central document of the Enlightenment: The U.S. Constitution. Just a late nite rumination. Paul On Nov 12, 2008, at 12:14 AM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Kshemendra, > > I'm sure Gordimer said what she said with all good intentions, I was > not > implying otherwise. However, as you must know, most Black Americans > can > anyway trace an ancestry back not only to Africans, but also to > Europeans and Native Americans at the very least. And this is not > just > a matter of genetics--it's profoundly true as a matter of cultural > heritage as well. This does not take away from the reductiveness with > which these matters are often presented in public discourse. So > even a > "full" Black American (by Gordimer's dubious definition) in the white > house would *still* symbolise "the importance and potential of > pluralism"-- as does not only Obama's genetic circumstance (in a very > simplistic way), but also the composition and conduct of his campaign. > I'm surprised that Gordimer would be so hung up on genetic precision > (maybe it's just the reporter who gave an offhand, joking comment > undue > importance) but I wonder if, in the back of her mind, she was using > Obama to fight a shadow rhetorical battle relating to current South > African politics... > > Vivek > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Nadine Gordimer seems to have been very assertive in her comments >> which carried positivity. She does not appear to be enouraging any >> debate over whether Obama is "really black". She said (as reported): >> >> """""He's been celebrated as a black man. But it's not being >> pointed out that he's half black and half white. To me, it >> symbolically represents a kind of advancement in recognising the >> human tribe as one.""""" >> >> List member V Ramaswamy attended the lecture by Nadine Gordimer in >> Kolkatta and had this to say: >> >> """" Asked about the Obama victory, she clarified that Obama was >> not a "black" man, he was actually half black and half white, and >> thus symbolises the importance and potential of pluralism.""""" >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: >> >> From: Vivek Narayanan >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >> To: "Nicholas Ruiz III" >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:18 AM >> >> Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) >> racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only >> relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. >> >> Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that >> only >> points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised >> rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He >> uses a >> contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against >> Black >> Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is >> how >> completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and >> as an >> activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would >> understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being >> innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not >> getting this, >> Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential >> support >> base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was >> more in >> touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul >> suggests; >> or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. >> >> Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* >> that >> Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say >> whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) >> offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the >> party >> >> who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming >> months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on >> just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved >> significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it >> has >> gone away only entangles us further. >> >> Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. >> For all >> he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This >> has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's >> try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to >> come >> into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually >> points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, >> and I >> think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to >> critique >> and challenge Obama] >> >> Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's >> comments >> equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's >> ancestry is >> Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began >> emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US >> and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally >> accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South >> Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites >> settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social >> world in >> places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native >> American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine >> Gordimer >> apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less >> sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local >> wine >> shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- >> he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically >> tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that >> Nader, >> Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the >> dramaturgy of racialised politics. >> >> Vivek >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >> >>> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems >>> to >>> >> be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the >> irrelevant nature >> of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will >> make >> the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary >> surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a >> U.S. >> president of a different hue... >> >>> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race >>> >> element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial >> phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an >> attempt to >> eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has >> relegated, >> for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media >> coverage and >> commentary... >> >>> NRIII >>> >>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>> Editor, Kritikos >>> http://intertheory.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Paul Miller >>> To: Nicholas Ruiz III >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>> >>> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally >>> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a >>> political >>> >> >> >>> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. >>> >>> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in >>> >> African >> >>> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent >>> would >>> >> >> >>> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive >>> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's >>> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. >>> >>> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a >>> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - >>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation >> >>> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the >>> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of >>> stand in >>> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were >>> in >>> >> >> >>> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's >>> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's >>> >> "Black >> >>> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the >>> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to >>> say. >>> >>> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't >>> think >>> >> >> >>> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and >>> balanced." >>> >>> in peace, >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >>>> >>>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >>>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity >>>> of >>>> Obama and McCain... >>>> >>>> NRIII >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>>> Editor, Kritikos >>>> http://intertheory.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Paul Miller >>>> To: V Ramaswamy >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>>> >>>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >>>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at >>>> >> Dartmouth >> >>>> University. >>>> >>>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >>>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc >>>> etc >>>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >>>> >>>> OK - response: >>>> >>>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of >>>> >> hybridity: >> >>>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in >>>> public >>>> discourse? No. >>>> >>>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that >>>> >> Obama was >> >>>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with >>>> outrage >>>> (as Nader's comment was). >>>> >>>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if >>>> >> in >> >>>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up >>>> >> about >> >>>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds >>>> >> of >> >>>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be >>>> >> outraged. >> >>>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of >>>> words, >>>> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got >>>> >> lost >> >>>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >>>> >>>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW >>>> >> Griffith's film "Birth >> >>>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and >>>> >> showed >> >>>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm >>>> >> not >> >>>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >>>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the >>>> African >>>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's >>>> >> an >> >>>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of >>>> support >>>> with his comments. >>>> >>>> in peace, >>>> Paul >>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open >>>>> >> letter". I believe >> >>>>> that was >>>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>>>> "Uncle >>>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they >>>>> >> perceived as a >> >>>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>>>> white >>>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>>>> >> >> >>>>> oneself >>>>> within that. >>>>> >>>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle >>>>> >> Tom's Cabin", >> >>>>> by >>>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>>>> silently >>>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, >>>>> >> whom >> >>>>> he >>>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>>>> rejects. >>>>> >>>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called >>>>> >> "Uncle >> >>>>> Tom" a >>>>> few times. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few >>>>> >> times. >> >>>>> I don't >>>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He >>>>> >> has a >> >>>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>>>> certain >>>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>>>> ultimately >>>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I >>>>> >> was >> >>>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>>>> >> >> >>>>> how >>>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>>>> >>>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to >>>>> >> say >> >>>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in >>>>> >> his >> >>>>> "open >>>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding >>>>> >> Obama's >> >>>>> bending over >>>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>>>> based >>>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>>>> to be >>>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>>>> that >>>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>>>> that >>>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I >>>>> >> would also like >> >>>>> to think >>>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>>>> people can >>>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>>>> what has >>>>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a >>>>> >> sore, >> >>>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>>>> Obama. He is >>>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life >>>>> >> that >> >>>>> one's >>>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. >>>>> >> "With enemies >> >>>>> like >>>>> these, who needs friends!" >>>>> >>>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's >>>>> >> article on >> >>>>> Obama >>>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And >>>>> >> a >> >>>>> blog >>>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>>>> >>>>> Best >>>>> >>>>> V Ramaswamy >>>>> Calcutta >>>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Nov 12 11:30:34 2008 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:00:34 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Do we really want a National Identity Card in India? Message-ID: <65be9bf40811112200j3920738dy1d491b685ef9e066@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, This is to let you know that the GOI has sanctioned 300 crores for preparing a national population register. This amount is however the tip of the iceberg. As the actual cost of the National ID complete with a digital smart card and other backup infrastructure will cost a huge amount of money. NXP or Next Experience a company which is wholly owned by Phillips has opened its shop in India anticipating major tenders. Regards Taha http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/details.asp?id=oct2208/at01 *Rs 300 cr for national population register* Spl correspondent NEW DELHI, Oct 21 – Following reports of illegal migrants trying to enrol themselves as Indian citizens, the Centre is mulling a National Population Register (NPR). Planning Commission has sanctioned Rs 300 crore for the Project in the 11th plan. The Centre has, meanwhile, completed the pilot project on Multi-purpose national identity cards (MNIC) in March. The Government has distributed 12 lakh identity cards in the selected areas in 12 States including border districts of Assam and Tripura. MNIC centre would remain functional till March 2009 for maintenance and up dating of the database and issuing identity cards. Minister of State for Home Affairs, Dr Shakeel Ahmed said that there is a proposal to create National Population Register (NPR) by collecting information on specified items of each resident along with population enumeration at the time of next decennial Census in 2011. The preparatory work for NPR has been initiated, Dr Ahmed said. Solution to the vexed foreigners problem of Assam is now tied up with up dating of the National Register of Citizens. The modalities for updating the NRC are currently pending clearance of the Home Ministry. The Government of India has, meanwhile, sanctioned construction of 3407 km of fencing along the Indo-Bangladesh border, out of which 2627 km, (77 per cent), has been completed and the remaining work is scheduled to be completed by March, 2010, Selvi said. The BSF has apprehended 21,399 illegal infiltrators since 2005 on the Indo-Bangladesh border, the Minister added. From vivek at sarai.net Wed Nov 12 11:32:52 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:32:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: References: <477828.94258.qm@web305.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49190E88.2000901@sarai.net> Message-ID: <491A718C.5030901@sarai.net> Hi Paul, It's very interesting what you're saying-- and certainly the juxtapositions of this campaign will have profound implications and raise significant questions. I don't think, in the end, do you, that Obama will really be able to turn very far away from special interest groups, lobbyists, the mass media, the democratic party, big time funders, the overdetermined imperatives of, as you say, his imperial office, or indeed from the imperatives of nation state and nationalism ("Goodnight, and God bless America"-- though it's true that he didn't sound as convincing saying that as George Bush)--for as we know he relied, in the end, on all these factors for his election as much as he relied on that unique mass base that first made him a contender. So I think the greatest promise lies in how when that mass, networked, open source base will exceed its own purpose, become a force for the good and be able to put pressure on him or work on its own, and how it could serve as a model and an inspiration for a politics beyond electoral politics. Of course, I'm *not* saying that Obama will be some kind of remote-controlled president, a stooge for the rich and powerful. He is principled and he has guts and imagination, and I'm curious to see how far that can go. And then of course, there's the influence of Michelle, surely not quite like any other "first lady" that has preceded her, clearly still unable, as Michael Chabon so felicitously put it, "to hide her awareness of the smell of bullshit in the air". And if dress sense is any indication of personality, frankly, I LOVE her dress sense and screw-you attitude to dressing: http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fearclothing/2008/11/11/firstladystyl.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/3388432/Michelle-Obamas-election-night-dress-upsets-Americas-fashion-crowd.html Vivek Paul Miller wrote: > Hi Vivek, hello Nicholas - the main thing is this: The juxtaposition > of a networked, open-source campaign and a historically imperial > office will have profound implications and raise significant > questions. Special-interest groups and lobbyists will now contend with > an environment of transparency and a president who owes them nothing. > The news media will now contend with an administration that can take > its case directly to its base without even booking time on the networks. > > More profoundly, while many people think that President-elect Obama is > a gift to the Democratic Party, he could actually hasten its demise. > Political parties supply brand, ground troops, money and > relationships, all things that Mr. Obama already owns. > > And his relationships are not the just traditional ties of Democrats — > teachers’ unions, party faithful and Hollywood moneybags — but a > network of supporters who used a distributed model of phone banking to > organize and get out the vote, helped raise a record-breaking $600 > million, and created all manner of media clips that were viewed > millions of times. It was an online movement that begot offline > behavior, including producing youth voter turnout that may have > supplied the margin of victory. > > This is an excerpt/collage from a couple of articles that I think are > quite on point about the racial politics of the last 40 years. It > really turns Nixon's "Southern Strategy" where poor whites were made > to vote against their own interests (a la "Joe The Plumber" who would > vote against spreading the wealth around, and support John Mccain who > can't even remember how many houses he owns...). That kind of bizaare > juxtaposition is based squarely on the racial ideology of poor, > under-educated whites. Which - again - was stunning coming from Nader. > > I'll forward an article in a moment. > Paul > On Nov 10, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > >> Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) >> racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only >> relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. >> Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that only >> points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised >> rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He uses a >> contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against Black >> Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is how >> completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and as an >> activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would >> understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being >> innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not getting this, >> Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential support >> base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was more in >> touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul suggests; >> or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. >> >> Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* that >> Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say >> whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) >> offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the party >> who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming >> months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on >> just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved >> significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it has >> gone away only entangles us further. >> >> Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. For all >> he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This >> has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's >> try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to come >> into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually >> points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, and I >> think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to critique >> and challenge Obama] >> >> Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's comments >> equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's ancestry is >> Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began >> emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US >> and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally >> accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South >> Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites >> settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social world in >> places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native >> American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine Gordimer >> apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less >> sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local wine >> shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- >> he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically >> tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that Nader, >> Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the >> dramaturgy of racialised politics. >> >> Vivek >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >>> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems >>> to be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the >>> irrelevant nature of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin >>> color that will make the political difference, even as most recent >>> 'political' commentary surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the >>> historic nature of a U.S. president of a different hue... >>> >>> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race >>> element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial >>> phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an >>> attempt to eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that >>> has relegated, for Nader, the itemized political issues to the >>> backwaters of media coverage and commentary... >>> >>> NRIII >>> >>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>> Editor, Kritikos >>> http://intertheory.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Paul Miller >>> To: Nicholas Ruiz III >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>> >>> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally >>> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political >>> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. >>> >>> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African >>> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would >>> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive >>> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's >>> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. >>> >>> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a >>> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation >>> >>> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the >>> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in >>> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in >>> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's >>> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black >>> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the >>> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. >>> >>> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think >>> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and >>> balanced." >>> >>> in peace, >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >>>> >>>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >>>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of >>>> Obama and McCain... >>>> >>>> NRIII >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>>> Editor, Kritikos >>>> http://intertheory.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Paul Miller >>>> To: V Ramaswamy >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>>> >>>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >>>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth >>>> University. >>>> >>>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >>>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc >>>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >>>> >>>> OK - response: >>>> >>>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: >>>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public >>>> discourse? No. >>>> >>>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was >>>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage >>>> (as Nader's comment was). >>>> >>>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in >>>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about >>>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of >>>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. >>>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, >>>> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost >>>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >>>> >>>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth >>>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed >>>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not >>>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >>>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African >>>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an >>>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support >>>> with his comments. >>>> >>>> in peace, >>>> Paul >>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe >>>>> that was >>>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>>>> "Uncle >>>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a >>>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>>>> white >>>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>>>> oneself >>>>> within that. >>>>> >>>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", >>>>> by >>>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>>>> silently >>>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom >>>>> he >>>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>>>> rejects. >>>>> >>>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle >>>>> Tom" a >>>>> few times. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. >>>>> I don't >>>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a >>>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>>>> certain >>>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>>>> ultimately >>>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was >>>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>>>> how >>>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>>>> >>>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say >>>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his >>>>> "open >>>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's >>>>> bending over >>>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>>>> based >>>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>>>> to be >>>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>>>> that >>>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>>>> that >>>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like >>>>> to think >>>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>>>> people can >>>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>>>> what has >>>>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, >>>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>>>> Obama. He is >>>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that >>>>> one's >>>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies >>>>> like >>>>> these, who needs friends!" >>>>> >>>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on >>>>> Obama >>>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a >>>>> blog >>>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>>>> >>>>> Best >>>>> >>>>> V Ramaswamy >>>>> Calcutta >>>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 11:55:31 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:55:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Disappearance of the Ganges Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811112225l37a50857lab689290d5f111cc@mail.gmail.com> <<<<<<<<<<<< As I explained in my book, *The Vedic Prophecies: A New Look into the Future*, the Vedic texts reveal that such holy rivers as the Ganges will dry up and become only a series of small lakes, at best. In this way, it may practically disappear, as did the Sarasvati River.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *The Disappearance of the Ganges* *By Stephen Knapp* As reported in an article by Charles Arthur in the June 8, 1999 edition of *The Independent* in England, new information has been gathered by scientists at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi, India, regarding how the glaciers in the Himalayas are retreating. As we had explained, the glacier above Gangotri, from which the Ganges River starts, has retreated about one kilometer in the past 20 years or so. In fact, it has been determined that these glaciers are retreating faster than anywhere else on the planet. Professor Syed Hasnain, the main author of the report, relates that all of the glaciers in the middle Himalayas are retreating. He warns that many of the glaciers in this region could disappear by 2035. New fears are that the meltwater could produce catastrophic floods as mountain lakes overflow. As I explained in my book, *The Vedic Prophecies: A New Look into the Future *, the Vedic texts reveal that such holy rivers as the Ganges will dry up and become only a series of small lakes, at best. In this way, it may practically disappear, as did the Sarasvati River. This latest report surely seems to show the possibility of this happening sooner than expected. This also shows the reason that the origination mouth of the Ganges, at the ice cave called Gaumukh above Gangotri, is retreating farther away as the years go by. So those travelers who wish to journey to this mouth of the holy Ganga will have to travel farther up into the hills as time goes by. This also indicates why this mouth of the Ganges is always changing in its appearance. Getting back to the way the glaciers are retreating, at the University of Colorado in Boulder, a research team has found that the mountain glaciers are diminishing in the West as well. The Alps have lost nearly 50% of their ice in the last 100 years. The Major glacier at Mt. Kenya has lost 8% of its size, and 14 of the 27 glaciers in Spain are gone. The disappearing of the mountain glaciers is also reported in an article by Lily Whiteman in the January/February, 1999 issue of *National Parks*. It stated that there were more than 150 glaciers in Glacier National Park in Montana back in 1850. Now there are only 50, and it is expected that these will also disappear within the next four decades. This is primarily blamed on the increase in global temperatures by only one degree since the 1800's. Glaciers, because of being too solid and stable to show short-term variations in climate, are particularly good barometers of global warming. In regard to the Vedic tradition, it explains that the Ganges fell from heaven to earth and was caught on the head of Lord Shiva. This was to prevent the intense damage that the force of it would cause to the earth if it fell directly on to the planet. This took place at Gangotri, where the water backed up into the mountains where much of it froze. The course of the Ganges is said to still flow through the universe and come down to the earth planet. However, much of the river water comes from underneath the glacier. If the glacier at Gaumukh does continue to recede or melt away, and if the Ganges would ever cease its flow or begin to dry up, it would certainly mean the end of an era and a drastic affect on the Vedic spiritual culture as we have known it in India. Indeed, it would never be the same. *2007 Update* I visited Gangotri again in June of 2007, and it was easy to see that the Gaumukh glacier is melting faster than ever. The water that flowed downstream and over the falls at Gangotri was really fierce. This does not mean that there was merely more water in the river, but that the glacier was melting faster than previously. There are a few reasons for this. One of the issues is that India is building dams on all of its rivers. Along the Ganga there is a dam at Tehri, which has created a green lake that backs up for miles along the river. As was explained to me, this lake now somehow attracts more rain to that area, leaving the clouds drained by the time they get up toward Gangotri. This also leaves the region of Gangotri and Gaumukh drier than before. This also prevents the Gaumukh glacier from being replenished with the rain or snow that it normally would receive. Thus, the rate of it receding away from Bhojbasa or Gangotri is increasing. This is not only from the general affects of global warming, but now also due to not being replenished by rains and snowfall that add water to the glacier. So some people are thinking that the Ganga may reduce its flow, or even stop flowing if this effect increases, in as little as 10-15 years. When I was in Gangotri ten years ago, the Ganga had a steady but kind of meandering flow over the falls. But now there is lots of water that descends rapidly and powerfully. The village people in the area are simple and feel that it's just more water in the flow. They don't see how this may indeed affect the future of the glacier. However, some people do understand that this is a bad sign over the long term, and that it may only deplete the glacier that much sooner. India is making electricity from its hydro-electric dams along its rivers, so much so that it is selling electricity to other countries, even China. Yet it is odd that they cannot even supply steady electricity to places like Gangotri, which is in a blackout about half the time. Other cities in Uttar Pradesh have a similar fate with regular blackouts. But the building of dams is causing environmental changes, the future affects of which are unsure. Thus, as the glaciers recede and dry, the source of the river water will begin to disappear. This was further explained in a New York Times article on July 17, 2007, by Somini Sengupta. D.P. Dobhal, 44, a glaciologist with the Wadia Institute for Himalayan Geology, has spent the last three years investigating the Chorabari glacier, the waters of which form the Mandakini River. He reports that the glacier itself has receded 90 feet in three years. On a map drawn in 1962, it was plotted 860 feet from where the glacier starts today. The article goes on to say that a recent study by the Indian Space Research Organization, using satellite imaging to gauge the changes to 466 glaciers, has found more than a 20 percent reduction in size from 1962 to 2001, with bigger glaciers breaking into smaller pieces, each one retreating faster than its parent. A separate study found the Parbati glacier, one of the largest in the area, to be retreating by 170 feet a year during the 1990s. Another glacier that Mr. Dobhal has tracked, known as Dokriani, lost 20 percent of its size in three decades. Between 1991 and 1995, its beginning or snout inched back 55 feet each year. Similar losses are being seen around the world. Lonnie G. Thompson, a glaciologist at Ohio State University, found a 22 percent loss of ice on the Qori Kalis glacier in Peru between 1963 and 2002. He called it "a repeating theme whether you are in tropical Andes, the Himalayas or Kilimanjaro in Africa." A vast and ancient sheet of ice, a glacier is in effect the planet's most sensitive organ, like an aging knee that feels the onset of winter. Its upper reaches accumulate snow and ice when it is cold; its lower reaches melt when it is warm. Its long-term survival depends on the balance between the buildup and the melting. Glaciers worldwide serve as a barometer for global warming, which has, according to a report this year by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, been spurred in recent decades by rising levels of greenhouse gas emissions. Even the Himalayas have grown measurably warmer. A recent study found that mean air temperature in the northwestern Himalayan range had risen by 2.2 degrees Celsius in the last two decades, a rate considerably higher than the rate of increase over the last 100 years. India's public response so far has been to blame the industrialized world for rising emissions and resist any mandatory caps of its own. India's per capita share of emissions is one-twentieth that of industrialized countries, the government points out, going on to argue that any restrictions on emissions would stunt its economic growth. And yet, as critics say, India's rapid economic advance, combined with a population of more than a billion people and growing, will soon make it a far bigger contributor to greenhouse gases. More to the point, India stands to bear some of the most devastating consequences of human-induced climate change. In an October, 2007 edition of the Hindustan Times, there was this article called, "Gangotri Glacier Melting Rapidly," which explained how much the Gangotri glacier melted since 2004. Of course, we know that glaciers all over the world are melting away, but the Gangotri glacier is the main source of the Ganga River, which directly affects all of Vedic culture in various ways. Plus, the Vedic Puranas have also predicted that the Ganga will one day cease to flow and dry up, similar to what happened to the Sarasvati, which is said to now flow underground. A few points mentioned in the article included: In what is being termed a result of the first ever authentic study of the famous Gangotri glacier in the Garhwal Himalaya, the glacial landscape receded by 12.10 metres [or around 40 feet or more] in just one year since 2004. Incidentally, the river Ganga originates from the Gangotri glacier. It was the first of its kind study of the Gangotri glacier carried out using the highly sophisticated Global Positioning System," revealed Dr. M. S. Miral, a scientist at the Glacier Study Centre of the G. B. Pant Institute of Himalayan Environment and Development, Almora. "Before that, studies conducted on the Gangotri glacier were based on observations only." A six-member team of scientists from GBPIHED carried out the study. Dr. Kireet Kumar, head of GBPIHED's Glacier Study Centre, led the team. Dr. Miral attributed the Gangotri glacier retreating at an unusually fast pace to global warming. "Global warming has increased the atmospheric temperature by 0.6 degree centigrade worldwide," he said, adding even the Himalayan arc "is not untouched by the rising temperature." The rising temperature in the Himalaya did not just manifest itself in the retreating glaciers but also sent [increased] the snowmelt run-off of the region by several times. "The snowmelt run-off of the Gangotri glacier, for instance, had been recorded at a huge 57.45 cubic metres annually within just five years since 1999," said the expert. Similarly, the rate at which the suspended sedimentation that the snowmelt run-off of the Gangotri glacier carries with it, comes to around 17.78 lakh tons a year, which is dangerous for reservoirs like the Tehri dam, as it leads to a very fast sedimentation in these artificial water bodies. Dr. Miral said the Gangotri glacier "is receding so fast that even Gomukh, the snout of the Bhagirathi river, which is a popular religious destination for the Hindus, has ceased to resemble the mouth of a cow, for which its revered." However, in considering the information in this short article, we should also consider that when there is a discussion of global warming, it is a reflection of mankind's sinful or selfish desires and motivations. A simple and especially agrarian lifestyle does not produce the same level of pollution or causes for global warming. But an industrial lifestyle that depends on oil and the numerous artificial necessities that we have all become accustomed to, will certainly produce the pollutants and exhaust that will affect the environment at an increasing rate. If we worked harder at our spiritual development, natural realizations in our consciousness will occur that will guide humanity to a higher level of activity that will have a much less dangerous and contaminating output toward the environment and each other. This, of course, could lead into a much deeper conversation on the matter. But the point is that we are already seeing the affects on the Gangotri glacier, which will have serious and irreversible reactions on the Ganga River itself and the religious nature of life in India. * * * It is also interesting that in 2007, many parts of India were affected by floods from the monsoons, such as in Gujarat, Bihar, Orissa, Kerala, Assam, etc. Yet, in places like Madhya Pradesh, they are facing an acute shortage of drinking water which has reached crisis levels. As reported in India Tribune, June 23, 2007, households of many towns in the vicinity of Bhopal are receiving only a trickle of water, and that only once in every three days. In the rural areas where water is only supplied once in a week, it is more alarming. When it is available, it comes through for only 30-45 minutes. Officials estimate that nearly 65 million people, or 70 percent of its population, are enveloped by this crisis. Furthermore, the quality of the water is also troubling, where sewage is getting mixed in to the water in many places, such as Bhopal. Bhopal is also hit by this water crisis, but mainly because of its population increase which has grown from 800,000 to 2.4 million in only the last decade. With such a population increase in just ten years, then it could grow to over 5 million in another decade. If other districts in India are growing as quickly, then the water crisis will only continue to spread. This brings to mind the predictions that, just as there may be wars over oil today, there will be water wars in the future. As the government of India is already rationing water in as many as 115 urban centers, tens of thousands of people are buying water from private sources. For example, six families in Bhopal are jointly purchasing water from a tanker for Rs. 500 every third day or so. But another problem that India is facing is that ground water levels have been receding for years, so much so that even thousands of hand pumps are no longer operational because they no longer can reach the water. Thus, this water problem seems like it will only increase if some serious strategy is not developed soon. (This article is from: http://www.stephen-knapp.com) From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Nov 12 13:06:10 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:06:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Do we really want a National Identity Card in India? In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40811112200j3920738dy1d491b685ef9e066@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40811112200j3920738dy1d491b685ef9e066@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E9BE7EE-E37C-4A56-934F-1343465AE462@sarai.net> dear Taha, Agreed that the new information regime and bio metric forms of identification will be a difficult and troubling thing in our daily life. But my only caution is that we need to look beyond hyper claims beyond these methods and technologies. The Election I Card was such a big multi crore project and made it's initiator (Mr.Sheshan) a national figure for few days. Now it has passed into the document folder of identification (9 documents are allowed for voting - see text below), and it's initiators stands forgotten. The drive to consume huge amount of social surplus on security and identification has it's limits. It will reach a deadend soon. If a neighbourhood has to spend half it's inhabitants resource on security and identification procedure it will go bust and implode inward. Same i guess will operate at bigger levels. The fear-hype around these drives are to build a consensus around it. Security services, surveillance technologies, identification software all are beneficiaries and so they will invest on this hyper fear-hype. The two present axis of rule - Development without Dissent and Terror as Security will find some supporters and vocal demagogues. May even get a consolidated time of State access. But it will run into grave difficulty and it's social cost will be too high. Ofcourse who will bear the cost will always be specific. But this time around the costs will be much more distributed. Maybe we need to find a way to discuss these development from a vantage point that does not accelerate the fear-quotient of these processes. warmly jeebesh ELECTION COMMISSION OF INDIA Nirvachan Sadan, Ashoka Road, New Delhi-110 001. No. 3/4/ID/2008/J.S.II/(TP) Dated: 16-02-2008 "I am directed to enclose herewith Order dated 16-02-2008 regarding identification of electors at the current general election to Tripura Legislative Assembly. The Commission has directed that all electors in each of the 60 Assembly Constituencies shall bring the EPIC when they come for voting. Those who fail to bring EPIC can be identified by means of the photographs on the electoral rolls. In the case of those electors whose identity cannot be established by means of the photograph on the electoral rolls, the identity shall be established by means of any of the NINE alternative documents prescribed following certain procedures enumerated in the said Order." (emphasis mine) http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:cpirKEgTZcUJ:www.eci.gov.in/CurrentElections/tripura_ins/ins_200208.pdf+Documents+valid+for+voting+in+election+in+india&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=safari On 12-Nov-08, at 11:30 AM, Taha Mehmood wrote: > Dear all, > > This is to let you know that the GOI has sanctioned 300 crores for > preparing > a national population register. This amount is however the tip of the > iceberg. As the actual cost of the National ID complete with a > digital smart > card and other backup infrastructure will cost a huge amount of > money. NXP > or Next Experience a company which is wholly owned by Phillips has > opened > its shop in India anticipating major tenders. > > Regards > > Taha > > > > http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/details.asp?id=oct2208/at01 > > > *Rs 300 cr for national population register* > Spl correspondent > NEW DELHI, Oct 21 – Following reports of illegal migrants trying to > enrol > themselves as Indian citizens, the Centre is mulling a National > Population > Register (NPR). Planning Commission has sanctioned Rs 300 crore for > the > Project in the 11th plan. The Centre has, meanwhile, completed the > pilot > project on Multi-purpose national identity cards (MNIC) in March. The > Government has distributed 12 lakh identity cards in the selected > areas in > 12 States including border districts of Assam and Tripura. MNIC > centre would > remain functional till March 2009 for maintenance and up dating of the > database and issuing identity cards. > > Minister of State for Home Affairs, Dr Shakeel Ahmed said that there > is a > proposal to create National Population Register (NPR) by collecting > information on specified items of each resident along with population > enumeration at the time of next decennial Census in 2011. > > The preparatory work for NPR has been initiated, Dr Ahmed said. > > Solution to the vexed foreigners problem of Assam is now tied up > with up > dating of the National Register of Citizens. The modalities for > updating the > NRC are currently pending clearance of the Home Ministry. > > The Government of India has, meanwhile, sanctioned construction of > 3407 km > of fencing along the Indo-Bangladesh border, out of which 2627 km, > (77 per > cent), has been completed and the remaining work is scheduled to be > completed by March, 2010, Selvi said. > > The BSF has apprehended 21,399 illegal infiltrators since 2005 on the > Indo-Bangladesh border, the Minister added. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kj.impulse at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 22:48:40 2008 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:48:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] Kriti Film Club screening: in an East Delhi colony, 12 November 2008 Message-ID: <821019d70811110918y257b2c74ofc96d2174c94e256@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: aanchal kapur Date: 2008/11/11 Subject: Kriti Film Club screening in an East Delhi colony, 12 November 2008 To: Kavita Joshi / Impulse Kriti Film Club invites you to join us for a screening of Baby Haldar, a 22 minute film by Anu Menon on a domestic worker of NCR. A film about Baby Haldar, who was inspired to write the story of her life by her employer and has published her first book in Bengali, Hindi & English. The venue is 66 Chitra Vihar, (beyond ITO), New Delhi among a group of homemakers and other women from the colony, who've invited us to come and trigger some change in their lives. Starts at 3.30 pm and depending on the response we may show another women-oriented film! Call 26033088 for any details! http://krititeam.blogspot.com/2008/11/click-on-image-to-enlarge-lukka-chhuppi.html Rethink, Reduce, Reuse and Recycle Save paper, Save trees, Save yourself! Join Kriti team's initiative for an eco-friendly workplace and earth! +91-11-26027845/ 2603088 space.kriti at gmail.com - -- Kavita Joshi Filmmaker and Media Trainer ~ Delhi more info: kavitajoshi.blogspot.com workshops: groups.google.com/group/impulseworkshops - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 13:35:44 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:35:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Join the Protest March Against POSCO Project Message-ID: *JOIN THE PROTEST MARCH AGAINST POSCO PROJECT* *From Mandi House to **Parliament Street*** *15 NOVEMBER 2008** * *Stop Robbing People's Land and Resources for Corporate Greed* * * POSCO Pratirodh Solidarity, POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti (Jagatsinghpur, Orissa), and All India Students' Federation appeal to all progressive and democratic forces to join them in a protest march from Mandi House to Parliament Street in Delhi at 11 am on 15 November 2008 against the *illegal, undemocratic and unjust POSCO project and to condemn the arrest of PPSS leader Abhaya Sahu and other PPSS activists.*. The POSCO project in Orissa is a blatant example of the government's open robbery of peoples' resources in order to fuel corporate greed. Consisting of a steel plant, captive iron ore mines and a private port, the project will mean seizing the land of more than 4,000 families in the steel plant area alone. The port will likely to displace another 20,000 people, and there is no estimate of the even much larger number who will lose their homes, lands and resources to the mines. The company will get more than 600 million tonnes of iron ore for a paltry amount. The projects are totally illegal and in direct violation of the Forest Rights Act of 2006, under which communities' resources cannot be seized without recognising their rights and taking their consent. *This illegal project will destroy the lives of tens of thousands of people and rob a huge amount of the country's resources – with no benefit to anyone other than POSCO itself.* * * Since 2005, the people of Dhinkia, Nuagaon and Gadkujang gram panchayats in Jagatsinghpur, under the leadership of the POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti, have been resisting the project. They have faced massive violence, including bomb attackss, police beatings, assaults by hired goons, and yet have continued their peaceful resistance. Every state agency, from the Central and State governments to the Supreme Court, has colluded in ignoring the blatant illegality of the project and the just demands of the people. The most recent instance of this repression was the arrest of PPSS leader Abhay Sahu on 12 October 2008, following which repression is intensifying – even as the people's resistance has been growing with every passing day. *In this context it is crucial that we express our dissent and demonstrate opposition to POSCO and our commitment to the struggle against corporate attacks on people and their resources. Therefore, we call upon all democratic forces to join us for a protest march on **15 November 2008**, from Mandi House to **Parliament Street** , **New Delhi**. Please assemble at Mandi House at **11 am** on **15 November 2008** and bring banners and placards to the rally.* * * *The protest march will demand:* * * - Immediate scrapping of the POSCO project; - Release of Abhay Sahu and all other PPSS activists, withdrawal of all cases against them, and withdrawal of the police from the area; and - Stop repression on people fighting to protect their lands and resources throughout the state. ** ** More than 500 people from the steel plant site, and from other parts of Orissa, will be participating in the rally. * * * * POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti (PPSS) All India Students Federation (AISF) POSCO Pratirodh Solidarity (PSS) From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 15:18:54 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:48:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: failure notice In-Reply-To: <685649.66918.qm@web94909.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <287419.79965.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> you should ask the moderators why this has happened, they can help if they can, sending it to me serves no useful purpose   i have checked the sarai website and your email address appears as a subscriber, so if you have any thought that you have been  banned, it does not appear to be so   IGNORE THE ABOVE   i just noticed that, you have addressed your mail to the wrong address   correct address is reader-list at sarai.net (and not reader(s)-list at sarai.net)     --- On Wed, 11/12/08, rajendra bhat wrote: From: rajendra bhat Subject: Fw: failure notice To: pawan.durani at gmail.com, prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 3:02 PM ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "MAILER-DAEMON at n7.bullet.tw1.yahoo.com" To: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008 2:23:39 PM Subject: failure notice Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address. : Remote host said: 550 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table [RCPT_TO] - --- Below this line is a copy of the message. Received: from [119.160.244.76] by n7.bullet.tw1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:37 -0000 Received: from [203.212.168.60] by t1.bullet.tw1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:37 -0000 Received: from [203.104.18.55] by t1.bullet.kr1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp107.mail.in2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 165955.42410.bm at omp107.mail.in2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 47358 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2008 08:46:49 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=iZv5l7ihB1iM8VriSMr4tEP+DB0GsClHbgVT0BJWn1tBOIO4zYiYYKb4UV3rR6SeTd9GiN6z3qSOKaFEjoVknDkT98xiaEakBIwaYpNOlWgpiVnSIhRDOi9hQUqkz404vxXM/BSlOzH/QHQhYgJ3oqNYYl33N4cnXBZhdfNA+CM=; X-YMail-OSG: Pbh.v2QVM1mgFd_iCkUs2BrFEk60Hx3qE8PQi7_VGzQLrd93RWNAiA9IwFUiVFpSXEW9E.q5l.adqC7KIEbahwT8iZIgOcu_AyUTAxPFUB87z9.HMgjmvUt6KdUhHEpPby1Y71Ndf.NlqITT3WSOrnldnyTGr2GXvEb8IFBbYoeyRQ-- Received: from [59.164.99.72] by web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:16:48 IST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1155.29 YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:16:48 +0530 (IST) From: rajendra bhat Subject: gargi and her views about the offensive posts. To: sen.gargi at gmail.com Cc: readers-list at sarai.net, shuddha at sarai.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <83827.47009.qm at web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Gargi Sen has True impressive presentation of good thoughts. All said and d= one, if a member makes a mistake, and has chance to apologise for the basel= ess accusation of being "paid", this is it. Freedom of expression and right= to express is not free, it comes at a price to be civilised in expression,= true in facts, wise say even if one says all truth, it has to be told with= honey coated words. Let the tongues carry honey when they dwell on bitter = truths.=0A=0ATruth in many cases is difficult to prove with facts in modern= life. Society and its citizens have all types of individuals , some mature= , some aged but immature, some who think that they are too good to be stalk= ed and some who enjoy being noticed for what they are worth in their though= ts, many for their being important with veto power to throw out anyone they= dislike for any reasons. =0A With CSDS, an unique project, with lots of= fellows in different filelds of research in studies of developing societie= s, it is not that all fellows have become fellows solely by their works of = research and good studies of different aspects of societies in the developm= ent modes. But it would be waste of time to search for such unworthies who = are fellows by other means such as nepotism, caste considerations and also = closeness to the power to rule .? What is appreciated is inspite of such fe= w anamolies good work is the hallmark of CSDS, sarai list being one such ar= ea. If some member is removed from the list, it only reflects the smallness= of such fellows, pettiness of intolerent individual in tolerent society. h= aving said that, it is imperative that the member who has accused of wrong = doing must and shall apologise for the accusation of being "paid" list memb= er., if he can not produce the proof of such payment.=0AYajnavalkya. =0A=0A= =0A=0A Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos= ..yahoo.com/address Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 15:22:59 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:52:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: failure notice In-Reply-To: <287419.79965.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <568631.97751.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Apologies   It was not meant for the List. I brought up the List address to copy paste it and forgot to delete it from the address line before sending out the mail   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: failure notice To: "rajendra bhat" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 3:18 PM you should ask the moderators why this has happened, they can help if they can, sending it to me serves no useful purpose   i have checked the sarai website and your email address appears as a subscriber, so if you have any thought that you have been  banned, it does not appear to be so   IGNORE THE ABOVE   i just noticed that, you have addressed your mail to the wrong address   correct address is reader-list at sarai.net (and not reader(s)-list at sarai.net)     --- On Wed, 11/12/08, rajendra bhat wrote: From: rajendra bhat Subject: Fw: failure notice To: pawan.durani at gmail.com, prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 3:02 PM ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "MAILER-DAEMON at n7.bullet.tw1.yahoo.com" To: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008 2:23:39 PM Subject: failure notice Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address. : Remote host said: 550 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table [RCPT_TO] - --- Below this line is a copy of the message. Received: from [119.160.244.76] by n7.bullet.tw1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:37 -0000 Received: from [203.212.168.60] by t1.bullet.tw1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:37 -0000 Received: from [203.104.18.55] by t1.bullet.kr1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp107.mail.in2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2008 08:53:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 165955.42410.bm at omp107.mail.in2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 47358 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Nov 2008 08:46:49 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=iZv5l7ihB1iM8VriSMr4tEP+DB0GsClHbgVT0BJWn1tBOIO4zYiYYKb4UV3rR6SeTd9GiN6z3qSOKaFEjoVknDkT98xiaEakBIwaYpNOlWgpiVnSIhRDOi9hQUqkz404vxXM/BSlOzH/QHQhYgJ3oqNYYl33N4cnXBZhdfNA+CM=; X-YMail-OSG: Pbh.v2QVM1mgFd_iCkUs2BrFEk60Hx3qE8PQi7_VGzQLrd93RWNAiA9IwFUiVFpSXEW9E.q5l.adqC7KIEbahwT8iZIgOcu_AyUTAxPFUB87z9.HMgjmvUt6KdUhHEpPby1Y71Ndf.NlqITT3WSOrnldnyTGr2GXvEb8IFBbYoeyRQ-- Received: from [59.164.99.72] by web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:16:48 IST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1155.29 YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:16:48 +0530 (IST) From: rajendra bhat Subject: gargi and her views about the offensive posts. To: sen.gargi at gmail.com Cc: readers-list at sarai.net, shuddha at sarai.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <83827.47009.qm at web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Gargi Sen has True impressive presentation of good thoughts. All said and d= one, if a member makes a mistake, and has chance to apologise for the basel= ess accusation of being "paid", this is it. Freedom of expression and right= to express is not free, it comes at a price to be civilised in expression,= true in facts, wise say even if one says all truth, it has to be told with= honey coated words. Let the tongues carry honey when they dwell on bitter = truths.=0A=0ATruth in many cases is difficult to prove with facts in modern= life. Society and its citizens have all types of individuals , some mature= , some aged but immature, some who think that they are too good to be stalk= ed and some who enjoy being noticed for what they are worth in their though= ts, many for their being important with veto power to throw out anyone they= dislike for any reasons. =0A With CSDS, an unique project, with lots of= fellows in different filelds of research in studies of developing societie= s, it is not that all fellows have become fellows solely by their works of = research and good studies of different aspects of societies in the developm= ent modes. But it would be waste of time to search for such unworthies who = are fellows by other means such as nepotism, caste considerations and also = closeness to the power to rule .? What is appreciated is inspite of such fe= w anamolies good work is the hallmark of CSDS, sarai list being one such ar= ea. If some member is removed from the list, it only reflects the smallness= of such fellows, pettiness of intolerent individual in tolerent society. h= aving said that, it is imperative that the member who has accused of wrong = doing must and shall apologise for the accusation of being "paid" list memb= er., if he can not produce the proof of such payment.=0AYajnavalkya. =0A=0A= =0A=0A Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos= ..yahoo.com/address Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 17:14:12 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:14:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Singur CPM leader gets life term for murder Message-ID: <6353c690811120344p47b3f8c6xaf78e1a4d3bee1d5@mail.gmail.com> Singur CPM leader gets life term for murder NDTV Correspondent Wednesday, November 12, 2008, (Singur) CPM leader Suhrid Dutta has been sentenced to life in jail in the sensational Tamasi Mallik murder two years ago. Dutta and another CPM worker Debu Malik were found guilty in the murder of 18-year-old Tapashi Mallik who took part in the Singur agitation against land-acquisition for the Tata's Nano factory. Tapashi Mallik was allegedly raped and murdered, then her body was burnt and buried. After taking over the case last year, the CBI arrested Suhrid Dutta who was then the secretary of the CPM's Singur zonal committee. CPM workers get life term in Tapasi murder 12 Nov 2008, 1637 hrs IST, PTI Link - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/CPM_workers_get_life_term_in_Tapasi_murder/articleshow/3704235.cms From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 18:51:53 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:51:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Year & Media Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811120521s7ea9aceblc3820caab3931bc7@mail.gmail.com> http://renjithmn.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/an-election-year-indian-media-sleazy-pleasure-of-baiting-hinduism/ Again an election year! Six assembly elections and the general election are on the way. There are mountains of dirty linen the politicians and media in this country to wash on this occasion. Obviously pseudo secularism is the proven and immediate weapon to harvest the votes of so called "Minority". With no surprise the stereotype bogey media found sleazy pleasure in baiting Hinduism. Let us analysis what is the quantum of sleazy pleasure they enjoy by baiting the Hindu religion and its affiliated nationalist organizations. Malegaon blast whether it is done by ultra-nationalists like Pragya Thakur or Anti-national jihadis is equally condemnable and must be stopped at any cost. Every person with common sense would say the same straight away from his heart. But do you think these bogeying and chronically politically biased family run media in this country to preach continuously aiming at pestering minds of the people by lullaby "Hindu Terror" the politically motivated slogan. Many times I feel Hindu religion became a religion of bitter political taste and faith of opportunism for many "dramatist politicians" and western stereotype media in this country. Should I be ashamed to say that I am a Hindu? When I say I am a Hindu and I respect my religion and its teachings, how it constitute to extremism or the so called "Hindu Terror"?. The oldest civilization on the earth and its religious faith is increasingly becoming an obstruction for many politicians to be in power. Politicians are keep on tickling the wounds of Hinduism just to win over the so called "Minority" as and when the need arise. The latest being heard loudly in the immature Indian media are the Govt's .cooked up theory about Ramsethu Bridge, Minority oppression, Christian persecution, Hindu Terror etc. What about the investigations on other routine blasts? Where are the culprits? What about thousands of Indians who lost their life in numerous bomb blasts across the country?. What about their dependents especially the old aged parents, widows and children? What about the people who routinely victimized by the terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir?. What about the hundreds of thousands of Hindu pandits who displaced from Jammu and Kashmir by the Jihadis and still live like refugees? What about the 1.5 crores of illegal Bangladeshi immigrants living freely in this country? This anti-national propaganda started with "Direct Action day" riots instigated by Muslim league in the pre partition period of independent India. The legacy still continues to haunt us in the form of proxy war by our neighbors and they easily find many sympathizers inside our country and they help bombs keep on explodes just because of un-abating pseudo secularism. In Kashmir Indian Armed forces fight Indians! As per the new trend those includes the extreme- south keralaite Muslim youngsters! (Pseudo secularists, don't misread, I don't blame the Muslim religion). What a contradiction! I am a common citizen and when I feel outraged and disappointed over these continues open jihadi terrorism and utterly idiotic pseudo secularism in my country with so many innocents are loosing their life in vain (Sorry pseudo secularists, these innocents include Hindus, Muslims and another section of people called "Human beings") we must imagine what could be the feeling of millions of ultra nationalists in our country. An impotent government does nothing to stop these well calculated killings, then people tend to react, they take extreme steps to take revenge. It is a common psychology of human being. Who to blame, the impotency of this Government or the Ultra national citizens? One of the highest ranking Army officers with excellent academic and official track record is allegedly involved. The people associated with him given their statement that he is a man with strong national sentiment and patriotism. Then, why he took such an extreme step if it is true? It is for us and the pseudo secular politicians to do an introspection to see what went wrong. Should we have a strong and stringent laws, should we have unbiased and hygienic political system, should we have uniform civil rules, should we have unbiased investigating agencies these incidents wouldn't have happened. I AM LIVING IN A COUNTRY WHERE ITS CURRENT PRIME MINISTER ITSELF SAID "MUSLIMS MUST HAVE THE FIRST CLAIM ON RESOURCES OF INDIA"!. Rather he could have said "EQUAL WEALTH DISTRIBUTION IS THE NECESSITY TO HAVE SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND HARMONY" being a responsible person, especially being dubbed as "Western educated eminent economist"! What a common citizen should read from this statement. Is this the kind of secularism they preach? Who are they trying to educate on secularism? Illiterate majority population in this country? It is just the tip of an iceberg. If we dig it down further we can see a lot of dirty mud with so many pseudo secularist worms skulking in that aimed at dividing the entire nation just to stay in power. Indian Media has lost its media ethics since long ago. It is sheer business mentality and political affiliations rules this family run media companies in this country. The saddening thing is we pay money to watch these hypocritical news channels and then learn utter politically biased news. Recent examples for their immaturity are many like one Aarushi Murder case, media people were thronging behind the police and the premise of victim house like bees even not letting them do their primary routine needs. When an investigation starts, the facts figures and even conclusions are coming in from the news channels even before the police complete or conclude its investigation. When an election comes in we can see a lot of cooked up stories airing in line with their respective political affiliation. Added to that they mix the matters with a bit of western hip hop and stereotype bollywood masala. Ashamedly with utter nonsense certain TV channels were airing live broadcast of "Aishwarya- Bachan" marriage for hours! A marriage with huge national importance of far reaching consequences, how can the media ignore that!. Bachan family feeds millions in this country and employs millions of jobless youngsters who dream of Aishwarya! Can you find anywhere else such intellectual media? Above all, now they got a weapon called online poll in their website to know the pulse and reaction of people who watches their news, as per the result they formulate subsequent stories. When Narendra Modi contested his election for second term in Gujarat, we witnessed the hungama and cooked up stories created by English TV Channels in our country to politically assist their political shareholders, sponsors, mentors and so forth to gift a defeat to Mr.Modi. But what turned out is a History .Thankfully these immature intellectuals never came up with a dubious opinion like "Those who voted for Modi are fundamentalists and extremist Hindus". Then almost ¾ of the Gujarat population itself will come under the tag of fundamentalism. It is severely itching time for such reckless media bogeys in this country as they keep on watching the social and economical development happening in that state. The same happened in Orissa and Karnataka elections and here too their calculations went wrong. The resultant was "Christian Persecution" theory. But that theory also failed. Thankfully and visibly BJP ruled states are doing well in socio-economic development indexes comparing to other states across India. For the Pseudo secularists and certain sponsored Media now it is the turn of "Hindu Terror". *They think they can set foot in soft soil with a new appease mantra!* From ml49 at duke.edu Wed Nov 12 19:37:02 2008 From: ml49 at duke.edu (Madhumita Lahiri) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:07:02 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Frantz Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks In-Reply-To: References: <545178.648.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <491A6620.3000102@sarai.net> Message-ID: <001401c944cf$f04e4470$d0eacd50$@edu> Hi Paul and others, Thanks for the thoughts on Obama/Nader/etc. I'm confused however as to why this is about Southern whites in particular -- or why it is interesting to see them, in Paul's words, into "a reverse Other." Is it because they are "poor uneducated whites," or "evangelical"? Does believing in Genesis make you a racist? Then how are there so many biblical interpretations of the Obama presidency among the progressive black community in America? If you look at the electoral map many of the red states were not Southern states (or Confederate states) at all. My state of residence, North Carolina, went blue this year (hooray!), as did Virginia, etc, and some of those who voted for Obama were Southern whites, after all. I'm not white; I'm not even Christian. And this is certainly not an accusation against Paul, or anyone else in the conversation. I've just found that certain brands of elitism -- poor, uneducated, rural -- or simple geography are frequently offered as "explanations" for racism. Not sure it's true, or helpful. Hope this is constructive, and thanks for reading, Madhumita -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Paul Miller Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:51 AM To: Vivek Narayanan Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Subject: [Reader-list] Frantz Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks Hi Vivek, Kshemendra, Nicholas - I have a little quote from one of the seminal texts of post colonial discourse that I think still echoes over the Obama debate: Black Skin, White Masks: "The Negro and Language": "For it is implicit that to speak is to exist absolutely for the other. // The black man has two dimensions. One with his fellows, the other with the white man. A Negro behaves differently with another Negro. The this self-division is a direct result of colonialist subjugation is beyond question. . . ." Let's reverse engineer that phrase and see what pops out of the logic of diaspora that Obama represents. Is he white or black? Both or neither? If you apply the context vs content breakdown of the unease that Obama's presidency strikes in Southern whites, it's that their role is being displaced and reclaimed. They are artifacts of a different era. If you read stuff like Camus's The Stranger, and compare it to the alienation of U.S. soldiers occupying Iraq, there's still a resonance: an occupied territory, whether it's the Confederate States after the Civil War, or the Iraq of today, creates insurgency in the struggle to reclaim identity. That's the way I see Bush - the last colonial vector of the Enlightenment, the last gasp of the Civil War. The red states and blue states have been caught in a vortex of remixes. Liberty, Justice, Equality at Guantanamo! The right to testify! The right to an attorney and to know the charges being leveled at you! Things like that have been thrown into the dustbin of history by Bush, but the idea is that these concepts can be re-animated. That's precisely what is going on at the moment: reclamation of public will to imagine a different world. I really think that the "they" of this transformation - the Bush-Mccain demographic: are now "The Other" - poor uneducated whites who now face globalization without the tools of the average worker of places like China or India (math, physics, etc are not "Evangelical values"). I'm curious to see how the reverse "Other" fares in this globalized economy based on information. It's now about "confidence in the markets" - it certainly isn't about whether the earth was made in 7 days, or how to count people are 3/4 of a human for tax purposes a la that central document of the Enlightenment: The U.S. Constitution. Just a late nite rumination. Paul On Nov 12, 2008, at 12:14 AM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Kshemendra, > > I'm sure Gordimer said what she said with all good intentions, I was > not > implying otherwise. However, as you must know, most Black Americans > can > anyway trace an ancestry back not only to Africans, but also to > Europeans and Native Americans at the very least. And this is not > just > a matter of genetics--it's profoundly true as a matter of cultural > heritage as well. This does not take away from the reductiveness with > which these matters are often presented in public discourse. So > even a > "full" Black American (by Gordimer's dubious definition) in the white > house would *still* symbolise "the importance and potential of > pluralism"-- as does not only Obama's genetic circumstance (in a very > simplistic way), but also the composition and conduct of his campaign. > I'm surprised that Gordimer would be so hung up on genetic precision > (maybe it's just the reporter who gave an offhand, joking comment > undue > importance) but I wonder if, in the back of her mind, she was using > Obama to fight a shadow rhetorical battle relating to current South > African politics... > > Vivek > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Nadine Gordimer seems to have been very assertive in her comments >> which carried positivity. She does not appear to be enouraging any >> debate over whether Obama is "really black". She said (as reported): >> >> """""He's been celebrated as a black man. But it's not being >> pointed out that he's half black and half white. To me, it >> symbolically represents a kind of advancement in recognising the >> human tribe as one.""""" >> >> List member V Ramaswamy attended the lecture by Nadine Gordimer in >> Kolkatta and had this to say: >> >> """" Asked about the Obama victory, she clarified that Obama was >> not a "black" man, he was actually half black and half white, and >> thus symbolises the importance and potential of pluralism.""""" >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: >> >> From: Vivek Narayanan >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >> To: "Nicholas Ruiz III" >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:18 AM >> >> Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) >> racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only >> relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. >> >> Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that >> only >> points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised >> rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He >> uses a >> contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against >> Black >> Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is >> how >> completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and >> as an >> activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would >> understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being >> innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not >> getting this, >> Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential >> support >> base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was >> more in >> touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul >> suggests; >> or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. >> >> Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* >> that >> Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say >> whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) >> offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the >> party >> >> who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming >> months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on >> just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved >> significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it >> has >> gone away only entangles us further. >> >> Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. >> For all >> he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This >> has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's >> try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to >> come >> into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually >> points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, >> and I >> think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to >> critique >> and challenge Obama] >> >> Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's >> comments >> equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's >> ancestry is >> Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began >> emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US >> and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally >> accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South >> Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites >> settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social >> world in >> places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native >> American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine >> Gordimer >> apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less >> sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local >> wine >> shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- >> he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically >> tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that >> Nader, >> Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the >> dramaturgy of racialised politics. >> >> Vivek >> >> Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >> >>> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems >>> to >>> >> be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the >> irrelevant nature >> of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will >> make >> the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary >> surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a >> U.S. >> president of a different hue... >> >>> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race >>> >> element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial >> phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an >> attempt to >> eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has >> relegated, >> for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media >> coverage and >> commentary... >> >>> NRIII >>> >>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>> Editor, Kritikos >>> http://intertheory.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Paul Miller >>> To: Nicholas Ruiz III >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>> >>> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally >>> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a >>> political >>> >> >> >>> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. >>> >>> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in >>> >> African >> >>> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent >>> would >>> >> >> >>> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive >>> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's >>> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. >>> >>> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a >>> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - >>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation >> >>> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the >>> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of >>> stand in >>> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were >>> in >>> >> >> >>> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's >>> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's >>> >> "Black >> >>> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the >>> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to >>> say. >>> >>> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't >>> think >>> >> >> >>> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and >>> balanced." >>> >>> in peace, >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >>>> >>>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >>>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity >>>> of >>>> Obama and McCain... >>>> >>>> NRIII >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>>> Editor, Kritikos >>>> http://intertheory.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Paul Miller >>>> To: V Ramaswamy >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>>> >>>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >>>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at >>>> >> Dartmouth >> >>>> University. >>>> >>>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from >>>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc >>>> etc >>>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >>>> >>>> OK - response: >>>> >>>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of >>>> >> hybridity: >> >>>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in >>>> public >>>> discourse? No. >>>> >>>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that >>>> >> Obama was >> >>>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with >>>> outrage >>>> (as Nader's comment was). >>>> >>>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if >>>> >> in >> >>>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up >>>> >> about >> >>>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds >>>> >> of >> >>>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be >>>> >> outraged. >> >>>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of >>>> words, >>>> and theintent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got >>>> >> lost >> >>>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >>>> >>>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW >>>> >> Griffith's film "Birth >> >>>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and >>>> >> showed >> >>>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm >>>> >> not >> >>>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >>>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the >>>> African >>>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's >>>> >> an >> >>>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of >>>> support >>>> with his comments. >>>> >>>> in peace, >>>> Paul >>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open >>>>> >> letter". I believe >> >>>>> that was >>>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term >>>>> "Uncle >>>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they >>>>> >> perceived as a >> >>>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the >>>>> white >>>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>>>> >> >> >>>>> oneself >>>>> within that. >>>>> >>>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle >>>>> >> Tom's Cabin", >> >>>>> by >>>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>>>> silently >>>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, >>>>> >> whom >> >>>>> he >>>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>>>> rejects. >>>>> >>>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called >>>>> >> "Uncle >> >>>>> Tom" a >>>>> few times. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few >>>>> >> times. >> >>>>> I don't >>>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He >>>>> >> has a >> >>>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>>>> certain >>>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>>>> ultimately >>>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I >>>>> >> was >> >>>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says >>>>> >> >> >>>>> how >>>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>>>> >>>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to >>>>> >> say >> >>>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in >>>>> >> his >> >>>>> "open >>>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding >>>>> >> Obama's >> >>>>> bending over >>>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- >>>>> based >>>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>>>> >>>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has >>>>> to be >>>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in >>>>> that >>>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think >>>>> that >>>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I >>>>> >> would also like >> >>>>> to think >>>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>>>> people can >>>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say >>>>> what has >>>>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a >>>>> >> sore, >> >>>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>>>> Obama. He is >>>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life >>>>> >> that >> >>>>> one's >>>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. >>>>> >> "With enemies >> >>>>> like >>>>> these, who needs friends!" >>>>> >>>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's >>>>> >> article on >> >>>>> Obama >>>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And >>>>> >> a >> >>>>> blog >>>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>>>> >>>>> Best >>>>> >>>>> V Ramaswamy >>>>> Calcutta >>>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 19:48:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:48:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Word Jugglery - Mr Sengupta Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811120618o5118229aq72c45e08b6361bc2@mail.gmail.com> In view of the recent allegations By Mr Sengupta against me , I am just replying in haste. I just wanted to know from Mr Sengupta as why he has assumed that all my accusations were directed towards him ? Can he forward a link where i have named him ? If I write without naming anyone in particular , that statement should not be assumed to be directed towards Mr Sengupta. However since Mr Sengupta is a master in word jugglery and he wished to see his ideological opponents out of this group , he attempted what he is best at .......word jugglery. However I must say that even though I have not in any of my mails named him , but his reaction and assumption that all statements were directed to him have started to make me think.......Why ? Below are few quotes which mr Sengupta has used and my comments .I am answering only for my accusation....The mail can not be as elaborate and lengthy as Mr Sengupta writes, i am using only the relevant portions. 1.Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...Notwithstanding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out soon..." MY COMMENTS : My blaming 'intellectuals' and 'journalists' DOES NOT mean that I am blaming Shuddha . I for once have never considered him even close to being an intellectual. His intellect does not appeal me , even if it does exist. If he considers himself as an intellectual , it does not necessarily mean that I am blaming him , as he may not be the only intellectual. 2.(from Pawan Durani) "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB FOR ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) MY COMMENTS : I do agree that Shuddha is master of words , however even this comment also did not *name* anyone. This is a general statement . There are many writers who write for passion and there are many who write for money. If anyone would deny that , that would be a surprise to me. And as i have said "i dont get paid " for writing , as i write for passion. passion of my cause . I do not know for what Shuddha writes ...Passion or Money......thats what he must be knowing . Again, have I named *him* anywhere ??? 3. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support their cause by trying to create an opinion..." MY COMMENTS : I still stand by statement . I do believe that SURROGATES exist. They may exist just anywhere , including this group. After all there are more than 1000 members here and whose credentials and real identity may be not known. I have reasons to doubt . Does Shuddha know all the members here individually ? I am sure even the group owner does not. How do you know that I am real Pawan Durani and Kshemendra is someone else or for that matter Arti is not someone else ? Of all the people why does Shuddha think himself as a surrogate ? Why didn't Mr X react ? 4. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from Kashmir Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we would continue to counter their agenda..." MY COMMENT : I am sure with a the ideology Shuddha carry , he must be having his GURU , his continuous work towards that ideology is nothing but a service to his masters or Gurus. 5.6. Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons' status Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 (from Pawan Durani) "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I mean." MY COMMENTS : Whats the problem in this statement . Who would not agree that there is a section in India who have good contacts with Chinese Communists ? I may even like some part of that ideology , but that doesnt make me a puppet. If I am a 24 hour dedicated RSS Swayam Sevak , that makes me a puppet of that ideology. I do not care whether Shuddha is or isn't , but his reaction is making me think ..... Pawan PS : From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 12 20:01:35 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:31:35 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Frantz Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks In-Reply-To: <001401c944cf$f04e4470$d0eacd50$@edu> References: <545178.648.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <491A6620.3000102@sarai.net> <001401c944cf$f04e4470$d0eacd50$@edu> Message-ID: <2E396182-1F0D-41EB-ACF2-D493CC6E0CD0@earthlink.net> Hi Vivek et al - I didn't mention "racism" per se: I actually think it's alot more about ideology, American "exceptionalism" and the whole issue of how the South has been the barometer of national politics (to me, tragically) for the last couple of decades. I'll re-forward the article I sent about the "decline of the South's relevance" on national politics. Why do you think "Joe the plumber" would vote for MCcain? Not because of a "reality" where they have anything in common - except race. Please read below. It's actually an interesting article. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?em For South, a Waning Hold on National Politics By ADAM NOSSITER Published: November 10, 2008 VERNON, Ala. — Fear of the politician with the unusual name and look did not end with last Tuesday’s vote in this rural red swatch where buck heads and rifles hang on the wall. This corner of the Deep South still resonates with negative feelings about the race of President- elect Barack Obama. What may have ended on Election Day, though, is the centrality of the South to national politics. By voting so emphatically for Senator John McCain over Mr. Obama — supporting him in some areas in even greater numbers than they did President Bush — voters from Texas to South Carolina and Kentucky may have marginalized their region for some time to come, political experts say. The region’s absence from Mr. Obama’s winning formula means it “is becoming distinctly less important,” said Wayne Parent, a political scientist at Louisiana State University. “The South has moved from being the center of the political universe to being an outside player in presidential politics.” One reason for that is that the South is no longer a solid voting bloc. Along the Atlantic Coast, parts of the “suburban South,” notably Virginia and North Carolina, made history last week in breaking from their Confederate past and supporting Mr. Obama. Those states have experienced an influx of better educated and more prosperous voters in recent years, pointing them in a different political direction than states farther west, like Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi, and Appalachian sections of Kentucky and Tennessee. Southern counties that voted more heavily Republican this year than in 2004 tended to be poorer, less educated and whiter, a statistical analysis by The New York Times shows. Mr. Obama won in only 44 counties in the Appalachian belt, a stretch of 410 counties that runs from New York to Mississippi. Many of those counties, rural and isolated, have been less exposed to the diversity, educational achievement and economic progress experienced by more prosperous areas. The increased turnout in the South’s so-called Black Belt, or old plantation-country counties, was visible in the results, but it generally could not make up for the solid white support for Mr. McCain. Alabama, for example, experienced a heavy black turnout and voted slightly more Democratic than in 2004, but the state over all gave 60 percent of its vote to Mr. McCain. (Arkansas, however, doubled the margin of victory it gave to the Republican over 2004.) Less than a third of Southern whites voted for Mr. Obama, compared with 43 percent of whites nationally. By leaving the mainstream so decisively, the Deep South and Appalachia will no longer be able to dictate that winning Democrats have Southern accents or adhere to conservative policies on issues like welfare and tax policy, experts say. That could spell the end of the so-called Southern strategy, the doctrine that took shape under President Richard M. Nixon in which national elections were won by co-opting Southern whites on racial issues. And the Southernization of American politics — which reached its apogee in the 1990s when many Congressional leaders and President Bill Clinton were from the South — appears to have ended. “I think that’s absolutely over,” said Thomas Schaller, a political scientist who argued prophetically that the Democrats could win national elections without the South. The Republicans, meanwhile, have “become a Southernized party,” said Mr. Schaller, who teaches at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. “They have completely marginalized themselves to a mostly regional party,” he said, pointing out that nearly half of the current Republican House delegation is now Southern. Merle Black, an expert on the region’s politics at Emory University in Atlanta, said the Republican Party went too far in appealing to the South, alienating voters elsewhere. “They’ve maxed out on the South,” he said, which has “limited their appeal in the rest of the country.” Even the Democrats made use of the Southern strategy, as the party’s two presidents in the last 40 years, Jimmy Carter and Mr. Clinton, were Southerners whose presence on the ticket served to assuage regional anxieties. Mr. Obama has now proved it is no longer necessary to include a Southerner on the national ticket — to quiet racial fears, for example — in order to win, in the view of analysts. Several Southern states, including Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee, have voted for the winner in presidential elections for decades. No more. And Mr. Obama’s race appears to have been the critical deciding factor in pushing ever greater numbers of white Southerners away from the Democrats. Here in Alabama, where Mr. McCain won 60.4 percent of the vote in his best Southern showing, he had the support of nearly 9 in 10 whites, according to exit polls, a figure comparable to other Southern states. Alabama analysts pointed to the persistence of traditional white Southern attitudes on race as the deciding factor in Mr. McCain’s strong margin. Mr. Obama won in Jefferson County, which includes the city of Birmingham, and in the Black Belt, but he made few inroads elsewhere. “Race continues to play a major role in the state,” said Glenn Feldman, a historian at the University of Alabama, Birmingham. “Alabama, unfortunately, continues to remain shackled to the bonds of yesterday.” David Bositis, senior political analyst at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, pointed out that the 18 percent share of whites that voted for Senator John Kerry in 2004 was almost cut in half for Mr. Obama. “There’s no other explanation than race,” he said. In Arkansas, which had among the nation’s largest concentration of counties increasing their support for the Republican candidate over the 2004 vote, “there’s a clear indication that racial conservatism was a component of that shift away from the Democrat,” said Jay Barth, a political scientist in the state. Race was a strong subtext in post-election conversations across the socioeconomic spectrum here in Vernon, the small, struggling seat of Lamar County on the Mississippi border. One white woman said she feared that blacks would now become more “aggressive,” while another volunteered that she was bothered by the idea of a black man “over me” in the White House. Mr. McCain won 76 percent of the county’s vote, about five percentage points more than Mr. Bush did, because “a lot more people came out, hoping to keep Obama out,” Joey Franks, a construction worker, said in the parking lot of the Shop and Save. Mr. Franks, who voted for Mr. McCain, said he believed that “over 50 percent voted against Obama for racial reasons,” adding that in his own case race mattered “a little bit. That’s in my mind.” Many people made it clear that they were deeply apprehensive about Mr. Obama, though some said they were hoping for the best. “I think any time you have someone elected president of the United States with a Muslim name, whether they are white or black, there are some very unsettling things,” George W. Newman, a director at a local bank and the former owner of a trucking business, said over lunch at Yellow Creek Fish and Steak. Don Dollar, the administrative assistant at City Hall, said bitterly that anyone not upset with Mr. Obama’s victory should seek religious forgiveness. “This is a community that’s supposed to be filled with a bunch of Christian folks,” he said. “If they’re not disappointed, they need to be at the altar.” Customers of Bill Pennington, a barber whose downtown shop is decorated with hunting and fishing trophies, were “scared because they heard he had a Muslim background,” Mr. Pennington said over the country music on the radio. “Over and over again I heard that.” Mr. Obama remains an unknown quantity in this corner of the South, and there are deep worries about the changes he will bring. “I am concerned,” Gail McDaniel, who owns a cosmetics business, said in the parking lot of the Shop and Save. “The abortion thing bothers me. Same-sex marriage.” “I think there are going to be outbreaks from blacks,” she added. “From where I’m from, this is going to give them the right to be more aggressive.” On Nov 12, 2008, at 9:07 AM, Madhumita Lahiri wrote: > Hi Paul and others, > > Thanks for the thoughts on Obama/Nader/etc. I'm confused however as > to why this is about Southern whites in particular -- or why it is > interesting to see them, in Paul's words, into "a reverse Other." Is > it because they are "poor uneducated whites," or "evangelical"? Does > believing in Genesis make you a racist? Then how are there so many > biblical interpretations of the Obama presidency among the > progressive black community in America? > > If you look at the electoral map many of the red states were not > Southern states (or Confederate states) at all. My state of > residence, North Carolina, went blue this year (hooray!), as did > Virginia, etc, and some of those who voted for Obama were Southern > whites, after all. > > I'm not white; I'm not even Christian. And this is certainly not an > accusation against Paul, or anyone else in the conversation. I've > just found that certain brands of elitism -- poor, uneducated, rural > -- or simple geography are frequently offered as "explanations" for > racism. Not sure it's true, or helpful. > > Hope this is constructive, and thanks for reading, > Madhumita > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net > ] On Behalf Of Paul Miller > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:51 AM > To: Vivek Narayanan > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: [Reader-list] Frantz Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks > > Hi Vivek, Kshemendra, Nicholas - I have a little quote from one of the > seminal texts of post colonial discourse that I think still echoes > over the Obama debate: Black Skin, White Masks: > > "The Negro and Language": > > "For it is implicit that to speak is to exist absolutely for the > other. // The black man has two dimensions. One with his fellows, the > other with the white man. A Negro behaves differently with another > Negro. The this self-division is a direct result of colonialist > subjugation is beyond question. . . ." > > Let's reverse engineer that phrase and see what pops out of the logic > of diaspora that Obama represents. Is he white or black? Both or > neither? > > If you apply the context vs content breakdown of the unease that > Obama's presidency strikes in Southern whites, it's that their role is > being displaced and reclaimed. They are artifacts of a different era. > If you read stuff like Camus's The Stranger, and compare it to the > alienation of U.S. soldiers occupying Iraq, there's still a resonance: > an occupied territory, whether it's the Confederate States after the > Civil War, or the Iraq of today, creates insurgency in the struggle to > reclaim identity. That's the way I see Bush - the last colonial vector > of the Enlightenment, the last gasp of the Civil War. The red states > and blue states have been caught in a vortex of remixes. > > Liberty, Justice, Equality at Guantanamo! > > The right to testify! The right to an attorney and to know the charges > being leveled at you! Things like that have been thrown into the > dustbin of history by Bush, but the idea is that these concepts can be > re-animated. That's precisely what is going on at the moment: > reclamation of public will to imagine a different world. I really > think that the "they" of this transformation - the Bush-Mccain > demographic: are now "The Other" - poor uneducated whites who now face > globalization without the tools of the average worker of places like > China or India (math, physics, etc are not "Evangelical values"). I'm > curious to see how the reverse "Other" fares in this globalized > economy based on information. It's now about "confidence in the > markets" - it certainly isn't about whether the earth was made in 7 > days, or how to count people are 3/4 of a human for tax purposes a la > that central document of the Enlightenment: The U.S. Constitution. > > Just a late nite rumination. > > Paul > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 12:14 AM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > >> Kshemendra, >> >> I'm sure Gordimer said what she said with all good intentions, I was >> not >> implying otherwise. However, as you must know, most Black Americans >> can >> anyway trace an ancestry back not only to Africans, but also to >> Europeans and Native Americans at the very least. And this is not >> just >> a matter of genetics--it's profoundly true as a matter of cultural >> heritage as well. This does not take away from the reductiveness >> with >> which these matters are often presented in public discourse. So >> even a >> "full" Black American (by Gordimer's dubious definition) in the white >> house would *still* symbolise "the importance and potential of >> pluralism"-- as does not only Obama's genetic circumstance (in a very >> simplistic way), but also the composition and conduct of his >> campaign. >> I'm surprised that Gordimer would be so hung up on genetic precision >> (maybe it's just the reporter who gave an offhand, joking comment >> undue >> importance) but I wonder if, in the back of her mind, she was using >> Obama to fight a shadow rhetorical battle relating to current South >> African politics... >> >> Vivek >> >> Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>> Nadine Gordimer seems to have been very assertive in her comments >>> which carried positivity. She does not appear to be enouraging any >>> debate over whether Obama is "really black". She said (as reported): >>> >>> """""He's been celebrated as a black man. But it's not being >>> pointed out that he's half black and half white. To me, it >>> symbolically represents a kind of advancement in recognising the >>> human tribe as one.""""" >>> >>> List member V Ramaswamy attended the lecture by Nadine Gordimer in >>> Kolkatta and had this to say: >>> >>> """" Asked about the Obama victory, she clarified that Obama was >>> not a "black" man, he was actually half black and half white, and >>> thus symbolises the importance and potential of pluralism.""""" >>> >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: >>> >>> From: Vivek Narayanan >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>> To: "Nicholas Ruiz III" >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:18 AM >>> >>> Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) >>> racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only >>> relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always >>> backfired. >>> >>> Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that >>> only >>> points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised >>> rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He >>> uses a >>> contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against >>> Black >>> Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is >>> how >>> completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and >>> as an >>> activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would >>> understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being >>> innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not >>> getting this, >>> Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential >>> support >>> base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was >>> more in >>> touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul >>> suggests; >>> or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. >>> >>> Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* >>> that >>> Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say >>> whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to >>> take) >>> offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the >>> party >>> >>> who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming >>> months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on >>> just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved >>> significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it >>> has >>> gone away only entangles us further. >>> >>> Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. >>> For all >>> he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. >>> This >>> has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and >>> "let's >>> try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to >>> come >>> into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually >>> points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, >>> and I >>> think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to >>> critique >>> and challenge Obama] >>> >>> Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's >>> comments >>> equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's >>> ancestry is >>> Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began >>> emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the >>> US >>> and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally >>> accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South >>> Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites >>> settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social >>> world in >>> places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native >>> American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine >>> Gordimer >>> apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less >>> sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local >>> wine >>> shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- >>> he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and >>> comically >>> tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that >>> Nader, >>> Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the >>> dramaturgy of racialised politics. >>> >>> Vivek >>> >>> Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >>> >>>> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems >>>> to >>>> >>> be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the >>> irrelevant nature >>> of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin color that will >>> make >>> the political difference, even as most recent 'political' commentary >>> surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the historic nature of a >>> U.S. >>> president of a different hue... >>> >>>> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race >>>> >>> element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial >>> phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an >>> attempt to >>> eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that has >>> relegated, >>> for Nader, the itemized political issues to the backwaters of media >>> coverage and >>> commentary... >>> >>>> NRIII >>>> >>>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>>> Editor, Kritikos >>>> http://intertheory.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Paul Miller >>>> To: Nicholas Ruiz III >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>>> >>>> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still >>>> totally >>>> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a >>>> political >>>> >>> >>> >>>> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. >>>> >>>> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in >>>> >>> African >>> >>>> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent >>>> would >>>> >>> >>> >>>> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive >>>> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's >>>> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. >>>> >>>> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a >>>> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - >>>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation >>> >>>> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the >>>> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of >>>> stand in >>>> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were >>>> in >>>> >>> >>> >>>> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's >>>> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's >>>> >>> "Black >>> >>>> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the >>>> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to >>>> say. >>>> >>>> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't >>>> think >>>> >>> >>> >>>> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and >>>> balanced." >>>> >>>> in peace, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo >>>>> >>>>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant >>>>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity >>>>> of >>>>> Obama and McCain... >>>>> >>>>> NRIII >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D >>>>> Editor, Kritikos >>>>> http://intertheory.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> From: Paul Miller >>>>> To: V Ramaswamy >>>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? >>>>> >>>>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far >>>>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at >>>>> >>> Dartmouth >>> >>>>> University. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight >>>>> from >>>>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc >>>>> etc >>>>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. >>>>> >>>>> OK - response: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of >>>>> >>> hybridity: >>> >>>>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in >>>>> public >>>>> discourse? No. >>>>> >>>>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that >>>>> >>> Obama was >>> >>>>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with >>>>> outrage >>>>> (as Nader's comment was). >>>>> >>>>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if >>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up >>>>> >>> about >>> >>>>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds >>>>> >>> of >>> >>>>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be >>>>> >>> outraged. >>> >>>>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of >>>>> words, >>>>> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got >>>>> >>> lost >>> >>>>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. >>>>> >>>>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW >>>>> >>> Griffith's film "Birth >>> >>>>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and >>>>> >>> showed >>> >>>>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm >>>>> >>> not >>> >>>>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more >>>>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the >>>>> African >>>>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's >>>>> >>> an >>> >>>>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of >>>>> support >>>>> with his comments. >>>>> >>>>> in peace, >>>>> Paul >>>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open >>>>>> >>> letter". I believe >>> >>>>>> that was >>>>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. >>>>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the >>>>>> term >>>>>> "Uncle >>>>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they >>>>>> >>> perceived as a >>> >>>>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting >>>>>> the >>>>>> white >>>>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> oneself >>>>>> within that. >>>>>> >>>>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle >>>>>> >>> Tom's Cabin", >>> >>>>>> by >>>>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, >>>>>> silently >>>>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, >>>>>> >>> whom >>> >>>>>> he >>>>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor >>>>>> rejects. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called >>>>>> >>> "Uncle >>> >>>>>> Tom" a >>>>>> few times. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few >>>>>> >>> times. >>> >>>>>> I don't >>>>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He >>>>>> >>> has a >>> >>>>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say >>>>>> certain >>>>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is >>>>>> ultimately >>>>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I >>>>>> >>> was >>> >>>>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That >>>>>> says >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> how >>>>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. >>>>>> >>>>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to >>>>>> >>> say >>> >>>>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole >>>>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in >>>>>> >>> his >>> >>>>>> "open >>>>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding >>>>>> >>> Obama's >>> >>>>>> bending over >>>>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most >>>>>> Israel- >>>>>> based >>>>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. >>>>>> >>>>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that >>>>>> has >>>>>> to be >>>>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be >>>>>> in >>>>>> that >>>>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to >>>>>> think >>>>>> that >>>>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I >>>>>> >>> would also like >>> >>>>>> to think >>>>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and >>>>>> people can >>>>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, >>>>>> say >>>>>> what has >>>>>> to be said, and yet prevail. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a >>>>>> >>> sore, >>> >>>>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to >>>>>> Obama. He is >>>>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the >>>>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life >>>>>> >>> that >>> >>>>>> one's >>>>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. >>>>>> >>> "With enemies >>> >>>>>> like >>>>>> these, who needs friends!" >>>>>> >>>>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's >>>>>> >>> article on >>> >>>>>> Obama >>>>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And >>>>>> >>> a >>> >>>>>> blog >>>>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>>>> >>>>>> V Ramaswamy >>>>>> Calcutta >>>>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>>>>> List archive: >>>>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 20:37:40 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:07:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Word Jugglery - Mr Sengupta In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70811120618o5118229aq72c45e08b6361bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <645087.85295.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan I am not writing this mail on behalf of Shuddha (although he wrote his 9th Nov. mail on behalf of many of us). It is very clear from his mail (titled: "About Accusations on This List") that he is not taking all your accusations upon himself. He is writing on behalf of many readers of the list who collectively get accused of "being paid by foreign powers to write against KPs" and so on. So, your assumption that only Shuddha is behind that mail is wrong. Just yesterday, someone (was is you) said that "there is one Aditya for every Aarti, a Raja for every Yousuf", and so on (even though I don't post anything on this list to incite a confrontation). I think many people besides Shuddha have demanded that proof from you (to support your general accusations). We are all waiting. But more than that, I am intrigued by the long silence from the moderator of this list on this issue. Yousuf --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: [Reader-list] Word Jugglery - Mr Sengupta > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:48 PM > In view of the recent allegations By Mr Sengupta against me > , I am just > replying in haste. I just wanted to know from Mr Sengupta > as why he has > assumed that all my accusations were directed towards him ? > Can he forward a > link where i have named him ? If I write without naming > anyone in particular > , that statement should not be assumed to be directed > towards Mr Sengupta. > However since Mr Sengupta is a master in word jugglery and > he wished to see > his ideological opponents out of this group , he attempted > what he is best > at .......word jugglery. > > However I must say that even though I have not in any of my > mails named him > , but his reaction and assumption that all statements were > directed to him > have started to make me think.......Why ? > > Below are few quotes which mr Sengupta has used and my > comments .I am > answering only for my accusation....The mail can not be as > elaborate and > lengthy as Mr Sengupta writes, i am using only the relevant > portions. > > > 1.Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...Notwithstanding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY > A FOREIGN COUNTRY , > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who > created a > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , > Parlaiment case are > being followed more closely. > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and > their links > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will > come out soon..." > > MY COMMENTS : My blaming 'intellectuals' and > 'journalists' DOES NOT mean > that I am blaming Shuddha . I for once have never > considered him even close > to being an intellectual. His intellect does not appeal me > , even if it does > exist. If he considers himself as an intellectual , it does > not necessarily > mean that I am blaming him , as he may not be the only > intellectual. > > > 2.(from Pawan Durani) > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS > THIS A FULL TIME JOB FOR > ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > MY COMMENTS : I do agree that Shuddha is master of words , > however even this > comment also did not *name* anyone. This is a general > statement . There are > many writers who write for passion and there are many who > write for money. > If anyone would deny that , that would be a surprise to me. > And as i have > said "i dont get paid " for writing , as i write > for passion. passion of my > cause . I do not know for what Shuddha writes ...Passion or > Money......thats > what he must be knowing . > > Again, have I named *him* anywhere ??? > > > > > 3. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement > from Kashmir > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS > A UNPAID JOB,UNLIKE > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir > and support their > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > MY COMMENTS : I still stand by statement . I do believe > that SURROGATES > exist. They may exist just anywhere , including this group. > After all there > are more than 1000 members here and whose credentials and > real identity may > be not known. I have reasons to doubt . Does Shuddha know > all the members > here individually ? I am sure even the group owner does > not. How do you know > that I am real Pawan Durani and Kshemendra is someone else > or for that > matter Arti is not someone else ? > > Of all the people why does Shuddha think himself as a > surrogate ? Why didn't > Mr X react ? > > > 4. > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > Displacement from > Kashmir > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE > HIS MASTERS and we would > continue to counter their agenda..." > > MY COMMENT : I am sure with a the ideology Shuddha carry , > he must be having > his GURU , his continuous work towards that ideology is > nothing but a > service to his masters or Gurus. > > > 5.6. > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally > displaced persons' > status > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > (from Pawan Durani) > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. > You know what I mean." > > MY COMMENTS : Whats the problem in this statement . Who > would not agree that > there is a section in India who have good contacts with > Chinese Communists ? > I may even like some part of that ideology , but that > doesnt make me a > puppet. If I am a 24 hour dedicated RSS Swayam Sevak , that > makes me a > puppet of that ideology. > I do not care whether Shuddha is or isn't , but his > reaction is making me > think ..... > > > Pawan > > PS : > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 22:05:45 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:05:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Word Jugglery - Mr Sengupta In-Reply-To: <645087.85295.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70811120618o5118229aq72c45e08b6361bc2@mail.gmail.com> <645087.85295.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690811120835p7643ad81v736aa72a4c916e6e@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, Shuddha is bent about wasting time of most Sarai readers. Lets just ignore him.. We have better things to do, discuss and debate here. Just because learned people like Rashneek Kher and Kshemedra Kaul and a few others don't tolerate his usual crap and misinformation, and also give him a befitting reply every time, poor chap has gone uncontrollable on his keyboard. Forgive this self-titled 'intellectual'. As I said he is terribly wrong with many things and has many misconceptions, which he will realise later in life, hopefully. I believe in moving forward. Lets not entertain his so called 'thesis' on us. He may just go on wasting time himself; but we should just stay away from now onwards. He is nobody to direct us or give us time on this list. 'Ideological Confrontations' are usual and more so healthy; but to take this personally, and then request the moderator to ban a few selected members is going insane with things. I condemn it. I hope this to be my last e-mail on this issue. Thanks On 11/12/08, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Pawan > I am not writing this mail on behalf of Shuddha (although he wrote his 9th > Nov. mail on behalf of many of us). > > It is very clear from his mail (titled: "About Accusations on This List") > that he is not taking all your accusations upon himself. He is writing on > behalf of many readers of the list who collectively get accused of "being > paid by foreign powers to write against KPs" and so on. So, your assumption > that only Shuddha is behind that mail is wrong. Just yesterday, someone (was > is you) said that "there is one Aditya for every Aarti, a Raja for every > Yousuf", and so on (even though I don't post anything on this list to incite > a confrontation). > > I think many people besides Shuddha have demanded that proof from you (to > support your general accusations). We are all waiting. But more than that, I > am intrigued by the long silence from the moderator of this list on this > issue. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > From: Pawan Durani > > Subject: [Reader-list] Word Jugglery - Mr Sengupta > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:48 PM > > > In view of the recent allegations By Mr Sengupta against me > > , I am just > > replying in haste. I just wanted to know from Mr Sengupta > > as why he has > > assumed that all my accusations were directed towards him ? > > Can he forward a > > link where i have named him ? If I write without naming > > anyone in particular > > , that statement should not be assumed to be directed > > towards Mr Sengupta. > > However since Mr Sengupta is a master in word jugglery and > > he wished to see > > his ideological opponents out of this group , he attempted > > what he is best > > at .......word jugglery. > > > > However I must say that even though I have not in any of my > > mails named him > > , but his reaction and assumption that all statements were > > directed to him > > have started to make me think.......Why ? > > > > Below are few quotes which mr Sengupta has used and my > > comments .I am > > answering only for my accusation....The mail can not be as > > elaborate and > > lengthy as Mr Sengupta writes, i am using only the relevant > > portions. > > > > > > 1.Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > "...Notwithstanding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY > > A FOREIGN COUNTRY , > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who > > created a > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , > > Parlaiment case are > > being followed more closely. > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and > > their links > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will > > come out soon..." > > > > MY COMMENTS : My blaming 'intellectuals' and > > 'journalists' DOES NOT mean > > that I am blaming Shuddha . I for once have never > > considered him even close > > to being an intellectual. His intellect does not appeal me > > , even if it does > > exist. If he considers himself as an intellectual , it does > > not necessarily > > mean that I am blaming him , as he may not be the only > > intellectual. > > > > > > 2.(from Pawan Durani) > > > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS > > THIS A FULL TIME JOB FOR > > ME FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic) > > > > MY COMMENTS : I do agree that Shuddha is master of words , > > however even this > > comment also did not *name* anyone. This is a general > > statement . There are > > many writers who write for passion and there are many who > > write for money. > > If anyone would deny that , that would be a surprise to me. > > And as i have > > said "i dont get paid " for writing , as i write > > for passion. passion of my > > cause . I do not know for what Shuddha writes ...Passion or > > Money......thats > > what he must be knowing . > > > > Again, have I named *him* anywhere ??? > > > > > > > > > > 3. Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement > > from Kashmir > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS > > A UNPAID JOB,UNLIKE > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir > > and support their > > cause by trying to create an opinion..." > > > > MY COMMENTS : I still stand by statement . I do believe > > that SURROGATES > > exist. They may exist just anywhere , including this group. > > After all there > > are more than 1000 members here and whose credentials and > > real identity may > > be not known. I have reasons to doubt . Does Shuddha know > > all the members > > here individually ? I am sure even the group owner does > > not. How do you know > > that I am real Pawan Durani and Kshemendra is someone else > > or for that > > matter Arti is not someone else ? > > > > Of all the people why does Shuddha think himself as a > > surrogate ? Why didn't > > Mr X react ? > > > > > > 4. > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal > > Displacement from > > Kashmir > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE > > HIS MASTERS and we would > > continue to counter their agenda..." > > > > MY COMMENT : I am sure with a the ideology Shuddha carry , > > he must be having > > his GURU , his continuous work towards that ideology is > > nothing but a > > service to his masters or Gurus. > > > > > > 5.6. > > > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally > > displaced persons' > > status > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30 > > > > (from Pawan Durani) > > > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. > > You know what I mean." > > > > MY COMMENTS : Whats the problem in this statement . Who > > would not agree that > > there is a section in India who have good contacts with > > Chinese Communists ? > > I may even like some part of that ideology , but that > > doesnt make me a > > puppet. If I am a 24 hour dedicated RSS Swayam Sevak , that > > makes me a > > puppet of that ideology. > > I do not care whether Shuddha is or isn't , but his > > reaction is making me > > think ..... > > > > > > Pawan > > > > PS : > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From isouweine at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 22:18:08 2008 From: isouweine at gmail.com (Isaac souweine) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:18:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? In-Reply-To: <491A718C.5030901@sarai.net> References: <477828.94258.qm@web305.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49190E88.2000901@sarai.net> <491A718C.5030901@sarai.net> Message-ID: <34bf33330811120848q4aba6bc0i9e5bc4ef89050ad0@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Great thread everyone. Lively stuff. I think Vivek's sentiments re: the entrenched nature of power and influence in America are exactly right. In trying to understand the possibilities of an Obama presidency, it behooves us to not let the inspiring idealism of SOME of Obama's supporters (read: newly energized youth and newly emboldened liberals) distract us from the intractable facts of the American political system. Even if Obama is as great a president as he was a candidate (two very different roles, for the record), government for and by elites (and powerful interest groups) remains just that. And even as the current world order begins its next round of massive convulsions, the American presidency is not merely "historically" imperial. Check the defense budget that Obama will leave untouched if you think otherwise. It seems to me that the best we can hope for from eight years of Obama is that he will restore the American system of elite rule into proper balance. Domestically, this means addressing energy and health care policies that are ABSURDLY out of step with other advanced economies. Internationally it means restoring America's reputation (i.e. soft power) by reversing recent constitutional affronts (torture, wire tapping). Given the best case scenario on all of these fronts, we will be left after eight years with an America that looks like it "should" look, on a good day, with the excesses of the Bush years hopefully wiped mostly away. Most Americans will have some health care, though not as many as in other G8 countries. Kyoto will be signed and a cap and trade system will exist. And maybe if the cards fall right, America will become a leader in green technology. So best case, Obama is a really great president and America gets back on her feet after a doozy of a decade. But watching all of this play out from Singapore (where I hang my hat these days) here's the thing I have been thinking about - while America gets back on her feet, the ground underneath her is crumbling. The American empire is now in decline. The world order that follows it will enforce a reduction in American military might, economic dominance, and resource consumption. For Americans - elite and otherwise - the changes will be extremely disruptive. So the image I have of Obama right now is of some guy out on the weekend fixing up damage from a major thunderstorm, but a week later the weather man is saying that a Class V hurricane is on the way, and the people who know about these things know that he's right. So does fixing up the house after the storm make it better able to withstand the hurricane? Or does having all the shutters back in place make it harder to accept when they get blown the fuck away forever? Far be it from me to argue against repairing damage (and pre-emptive maintenance for that matter!), but I can't stop thinking about what happens when the storm hits. . . Cheers, Isaac On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Hi Paul, > > It's very interesting what you're saying-- and certainly the > juxtapositions of this campaign will have profound implications and > raise significant questions. I don't think, in the end, do you, that > Obama will really be able to turn very far away from special interest > groups, lobbyists, the mass media, the democratic party, big time > funders, the overdetermined imperatives of, as you say, his imperial > office, or indeed from the imperatives of nation state and nationalism > ("Goodnight, and God bless America"-- though it's true that he didn't > sound as convincing saying that as George Bush)--for as we know he > relied, in the end, on all these factors for his election as much as he > relied on that unique mass base that first made him a contender. So I > think the greatest promise lies in how when that mass, networked, open > source base will exceed its own purpose, become a force for the good and > be able to put pressure on him or work on its own, and how it could > serve as a model and an inspiration for a politics beyond electoral > politics. > > Of course, I'm *not* saying that Obama will be some kind of > remote-controlled president, a stooge for the rich and powerful. He is > principled and he has guts and imagination, and I'm curious to see how > far that can go. And then of course, there's the influence of Michelle, > surely not quite like any other "first lady" that has preceded her, > clearly still unable, as Michael Chabon so felicitously put it, "to hide > her awareness of the smell of bullshit in the air". And if dress sense > is any indication of personality, frankly, I LOVE her dress sense and > screw-you attitude to dressing: > > http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fearclothing/2008/11/11/firstladystyl.html > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/3388432/Michelle-Obamas-election-night-dress-upsets-Americas-fashion-crowd.html > > Vivek > > Paul Miller wrote: > > Hi Vivek, hello Nicholas - the main thing is this: The juxtaposition > > of a networked, open-source campaign and a historically imperial > > office will have profound implications and raise significant > > questions. Special-interest groups and lobbyists will now contend with > > an environment of transparency and a president who owes them nothing. > > The news media will now contend with an administration that can take > > its case directly to its base without even booking time on the networks. > > > > More profoundly, while many people think that President-elect Obama is > > a gift to the Democratic Party, he could actually hasten its demise. > > Political parties supply brand, ground troops, money and > > relationships, all things that Mr. Obama already owns. > > > > And his relationships are not the just traditional ties of Democrats — > > teachers' unions, party faithful and Hollywood moneybags — but a > > network of supporters who used a distributed model of phone banking to > > organize and get out the vote, helped raise a record-breaking $600 > > million, and created all manner of media clips that were viewed > > millions of times. It was an online movement that begot offline > > behavior, including producing youth voter turnout that may have > > supplied the margin of victory. > > > > This is an excerpt/collage from a couple of articles that I think are > > quite on point about the racial politics of the last 40 years. It > > really turns Nixon's "Southern Strategy" where poor whites were made > > to vote against their own interests (a la "Joe The Plumber" who would > > vote against spreading the wealth around, and support John Mccain who > > can't even remember how many houses he owns...). That kind of bizaare > > juxtaposition is based squarely on the racial ideology of poor, > > under-educated whites. Which - again - was stunning coming from Nader. > > > > I'll forward an article in a moment. > > Paul > > On Nov 10, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > > > >> Nicholas, the left has historically tried to discount (for example) > >> racial or caste-based discrimination by claiming class as the only > >> relevant or "real" category, and this strategy has always backfired. > >> Nader is trying to reuse this old saw, but ironically in a way that only > >> points more directly to his deep, oblivious immersion in racialised > >> rhetoric, his way of seeing the world through racial lenses. He uses a > >> contemptuous, derogatory epithet that can only be applied against Black > >> Americans; that's inexcusable, yes, but what is more fascinating is how > >> completely out of touch it shows Nader to be, as a politician and as an > >> activist. Anyone who has spent some amount of time in the US would > >> understand how and why Black Americans feel infuriated at even being > >> innocently called "uncle"-- let alone "uncle Tom". By not getting this, > >> Nader has completely alienated a huge section of his potential support > >> base for all of time. I doubt he would have done that if he was more in > >> touch. It may that this is a generational disconnect, as Paul suggests; > >> or it may be a disconnect that goes much deeper. > >> > >> Perhaps you're right only in the sense that Nader perhaps *thinks* that > >> Obama's election signifies a post-racial world, and now he can say > >> whatever he likes without anyone taking (or having the right to take) > >> offence. This is why Davey D's example of "the white boy at the party > >> who thinks he's cool enough" feels so appropriate. In the coming > >> months, I suspect we will continue to see a lot of comments based on > >> just such an assumption. The discourse of race may have evolved > >> significantly, but we are still entangled in it; to pretend that it has > >> gone away only entangles us further. > >> > >> Or perhaps there are more cynical reasons for Nader's comments. For all > >> he says, he is still very much invested in electoral politics*. This > >> has been a campaign full of slurs, vicious, below the belt and "let's > >> try anything" attacks. Perhaps Nader is just doing his own bit to come > >> into view. [*the article I posted earlier to this list eventually > >> points to the ultimate limitations of electoral politics itself, and I > >> think that would be a much more interesting and useful base to critique > >> and challenge Obama] > >> > >> Naeem, I'm surprised that you would make Nader's and Davey D's comments > >> equivalent (as you seem to be doing.) Incidentally, Nader's ancestry is > >> Maronite Catholic from Lebanon; this is a community that began > >> emigrating from Lebanon (to escape persecution) to places like the US > >> and South Africa from the mid-1800s onwards, and was universally > >> accepted as "white" in all of these places (in Apartheid era South > >> Africa, Maronites were classified as whites by law; other Maronites > >> settled and were integrated/intermarried into the white social world in > >> places like the American South). Todd Palin is, of course, Native > >> American. And of course there's that debate, revived by Nadine Gordimer > >> apparently, over whether Obama is "really black". Or, as a far less > >> sophisticated fellow was insisting to his friend outside my local wine > >> shop yesterday (in Tamil), "No no no, I tell you, he's not a Negro-- > >> he's a Muslim, African Muslim!" All of these intricate and comically > >> tedious technical questions are mostly separate from the way that Nader, > >> Palin and Obama are commonly figured in public discourse, in the > >> dramaturgy of racialised politics. > >> > >> Vivek > >> > >> Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > >>> greetings paul/all...I see your point...it's just that Nader seems > >>> to be calling up the old phrase to highlight what he sees as the > >>> irrelevant nature of race in Obama's presidency...it's not his skin > >>> color that will make the political difference, even as most recent > >>> 'political' commentary surrounding Obama's win, revolves around the > >>> historic nature of a U.S. president of a different hue... > >>> > >>> Nader's critique seems effective here: it decharges the race > >>> element...by stating the obvious... that 'Uncle Tom' is a vestigial > >>> phrase best left that way... while recalling the words, as an > >>> attempt to eliminate the conspicuous activist charm of 'race' that > >>> has relegated, for Nader, the itemized political issues to the > >>> backwaters of media coverage and commentary... > >>> > >>> NRIII > >>> > >>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D > >>> Editor, Kritikos > >>> http://intertheory.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> From: Paul Miller > >>> To: Nicholas Ruiz III > >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:50:53 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > >>> > >>> Hi Nicholas - yes, that clip got passed around alot. I still totally > >>> and utterly disagree with Nader's use of what is viewed in a political > >>> context as ridiculously stupid rhetoric. > >>> > >>> To call someone an "Uncle Tom" is a highly charged term in African > >>> American culture - I'm not sure what the South Asian equivalent would > >>> be. Of course there's a reason Fox News (never the most progressive > >>> place...) would highlight Nader saying that, and of course, he's > >>> trying to gain media traction by using incendiary terms. > >>> > >>> I'd like to elevate the discourse a bit. If you look up Birth of a > >>> Nation and it's fear of an African American political leadership - > >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation > >>> > >>> you can see a similar aesthetic at work. Will the new leader be the > >>> saviour of his people or be controlled by whites as a kind of stand in > >>> for their own agenda? That film was in 1915. Nader's comments were in > >>> 2008. If we look at the philosophical implications of Obama's > >>> presidency, we need to look at something like Frantz Fanon's "Black > >>> Skin, White Masks" as a guide - perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, the > >>> Obama presidency will be something totally new. It's too soon to say. > >>> > >>> To be fair, one needs to have some kind of equilibrium. I don't think > >>> that Nader's comments were, as Fox News likes to say "fair and > >>> balanced." > >>> > >>> in peace, > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Nicholas Ruiz III wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Let's be fair...and not take Nader's comment out of context: > >>>> > >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo > >>>> > >>>> There is little that is hurtful about the way in which Nader meant > >>>> to articulate a critique of the political (not racial) similarity of > >>>> Obama and McCain... > >>>> > >>>> NRIII > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Nicholas Ruiz III, Ph.D > >>>> Editor, Kritikos > >>>> http://intertheory.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> From: Paul Miller > >>>> To: V Ramaswamy > >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:57:45 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ralph Nader, "White" Boy? > >>>> > >>>> Hello Naeem, and hello V - -I'm now writing to you from the far > >>>> northeast of the U.S. where I'm doing an artist residency at Dartmouth > >>>> University. > >>>> > >>>> Sorry about the delay in communication - I had a 9 hour flight from > >>>> Vienna to Washington D.C. then plane transfer to New England etc etc > >>>> This is from my cell phone, so it's brief. > >>>> > >>>> OK - response: > >>>> > >>>> I'm a big fan of looking at things from the viewpoint of hybridity: > >>>> yes, Nader is Lebanese American. Is it an identity he claims in public > >>>> discourse? No. > >>>> > >>>> If a person who was identified as "white" American said that Obama was > >>>> an Uncle Tom on a major news channel it would be greated with outrage > >>>> (as Nader's comment was). > >>>> > >>>> I've lost a lot of respect for Nader from his comments. Imagine if in > >>>> India a minority from the Muslim population (Muslim's make up about > >>>> 13% of India's population), became Prime Minister, and these kinds of > >>>> comments started up in the media. I'm sure people would be outraged. > >>>> In any case, I definitely think it was simply a poor choice of words, > >>>> and the intent to critique what Nader views as Obama's agenda got lost > >>>> in the poor choice of rhetoric. > >>>> > >>>> I'm in the middle of releasing a "remix" of DW Griffith's film "Birth > >>>> of a Nation" as an art piece. The film was made in 1915 and showed > >>>> exactly the same kind of sentiments of Nader. I can only say I'm not > >>>> too surprised. Brown on brown racism can sometimes be alot more > >>>> virulent than white on brown racism. Many of my friends in the African > >>>> American community were disgusted with Nader's comments. It's an > >>>> emotional issue, and all I can say is that Nader lost alot of support > >>>> with his comments. > >>>> > >>>> in peace, > >>>> Paul > >>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Nader's "Uncle Tom" comment is not in his "open letter". I believe > >>>>> that was > >>>>> made in an interview on Fox tv. > >>>>> From what I understood (from an earlier age of literacy), the term > >>>>> "Uncle > >>>>> Tom" was used by radical blacks, to refer to what they perceived as a > >>>>> servile, non-threatening, accommodating attitude, of accepting the > >>>>> white > >>>>> man's game and his domination but seeking something better for > >>>>> oneself > >>>>> within that. > >>>>> > >>>>> The term itself of course comes from the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin", > >>>>> by > >>>>> Harriet Beecher Stowe, where the protagonist, a slave, Uncle Tom, > >>>>> silently > >>>>> suffers indignities, but never turns against his white masters, whom > >>>>> he > >>>>> continues to love and whose overlordship he neither questions nor > >>>>> rejects. > >>>>> > >>>>> If I am not wrong, Dr Martin Luther King had also been called "Uncle > >>>>> Tom" a > >>>>> few times. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ralph Nader has contested the US presidential election a few times. > >>>>> I don't > >>>>> think he or anyone else seriously believes he will ever win. He has a > >>>>> specific political objective in contesting the elections. To say > >>>>> certain > >>>>> things, to raise certain issues, to ask certain questions. He is > >>>>> ultimately > >>>>> a valuable asset to the US democratic system. In fact this time I was > >>>>> surprised to learn - 2 days ago - that he had contested. That says > >>>>> how > >>>>> marginalised he was in the mainstream media. > >>>>> > >>>>> Even if no one else does so, perhaps Nader sees it as his task to say > >>>>> certain things, to call a spade a spade. For instance, the whole > >>>>> Israel-Palestine thing, on which he has elaborated in detail in his > >>>>> "open > >>>>> letter". I was struck by the fact that notwithstanding Obama's > >>>>> bending over > >>>>> backwards to please Israelis and thus American Jews, most Israel- > >>>>> based > >>>>> Americans apparently did not vote for Obama. > >>>>> > >>>>> Electoral politics is, as we know, a dicey matter, a game that has > >>>>> to be > >>>>> played cunningly. So I suppose non-cunning people should not be in > >>>>> that > >>>>> game, and only cunning people will play. But I would like to think > >>>>> that > >>>>> "cunning" need not always be a negative term! But I would also like > >>>>> to think > >>>>> that by and by, the ways of electoral politics will change, and > >>>>> people can > >>>>> by the force of their convictions, speak the truth, be honest, say > >>>>> what has > >>>>> to be said, and yet prevail. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would like to see Nader as a conscience keeper, rather than a sore, > >>>>> sour-grapes loser, or sniveler. He is holding up the mirror to > >>>>> Obama. He is > >>>>> challenging him with what he must do, if he is to be true to the > >>>>> expectations and hope he has unleashed. I have learnt from life that > >>>>> one's > >>>>> harshest critics turn out to be one's best supporters. "With enemies > >>>>> like > >>>>> these, who needs friends!" > >>>>> > >>>>> For those interested, I am mailing separately Vinay Lal's article on > >>>>> Obama > >>>>> (written before his victory) that appears in the current EPW. And a > >>>>> blog > >>>>> post that expressed the feelings unleashed by Obama's victory. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best > >>>>> > >>>>> V Ramaswamy > >>>>> Calcutta > >>>>> cuckooscall.blogspot.com > >>>>> _________________________________________ > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 08:25:11 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:25:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lawyers or separatists? - Hindustan Times Message-ID: <6353c690811121855u73b5efddi5bba4f36a8f7f53@mail.gmail.com> Lawyers or separatists? - Hindustan Times *Aurangzeb Naqshbandi, Hindustan Times November 13th, 2008 * There is an unusual addition to the list of separatist organisations in J&K — the Kashmir Bar Association (KBA). According to the Union Home Ministry, the Bar is one of 49 separatist organisations currently operating in the state. This disclosure was made in response to a Right to Information application filed by Aditya Raj Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit youth activist. Check more on - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/11/lawyers-or-separatists-hindustan-times.html comments welcome on the blog.. Thanks.. Aditya Raj Kaul From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 09:43:02 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:13:02 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Jobs in Zurich - for German speakers Message-ID: Forwarding for German-speaking members of this list, who may be looking for jobs. Got this on another list. Two positions at the University of Zurich are available from January 2009. All information below are in German, since both positions require fluent German speaking skills. Wissenschaftliche Assistentin / Wissenschaftlicher Assistent (50%) Am IPMZ - Institut für Publizistikwissenschaft und Medienforschung der Universität Zürich ist per 1. Januar 2009 oder nach Vereinbarung eine Stelle als Assistentin / Assistent (50%) zu besetzen. Die Stelle ist zunächst auf drei Jahre befristet, kann aber gegebenenfalls verlängert werden. Die Assistenzstelle ist der Abteilung für Medienrealität und Medienwirkung von Prof. Bonfadelli zugeordnet und soll die Forschungsschwerpunkte Mediennutzung und Medienwirkung verstärken. Mit der Stelle sind Aufgaben in Lehre, Forschung, Betreuung und Dienstleistung verbunden (nach Absprache). Vorausgesetzt wird ein überdurchschnittlicher Studienabschluss in Publizistik- bzw. Kommunikationswissenschaft oder einer anderen sozialwissenschaftlichen Disziplin mit Bezügen zu den genannten Forschungs- und Lehrschwerpunkten der Abteilung. Weiter werden gute Kenntnisse in den Erhebungs- und Auswertungsmethoden der empirischen Sozialforschung erwartet. Eine wissenschaftliche Weiterqualifikation (Promotion) ist möglich und erwünscht. Bewerbungen mit einem Anschreiben, Lebenslauf, Zeugnissen und falls vorhanden eine kurze Skizze der Promotionsidee (max. 3 Seiten) sind bis spätestens 5. Dezember 2009 per Post oder E-Mail (PDF) an die untenstehende Adresse einzureichen. Prof. Dr. Heinz Bonfadelli IPMZ - Institut für Publizistikwissenschaft und Medienforschung Universität Zürich Andreasstrasse 15 CH-8050 Zürich h.bonfadelli at ipmz.uzh.ch Wissenschaftliche(r) Mitarbeiter/in (80%) Am IPMZ – Institut für Publizistikwissenschaft und Medienforschung der Universität Zürich ist auf den 1. Januar 2009 eine Stelle als Wissenschaftliche(r) Mitarbeiter/in (80%) zu besetzen. Die Stelle ist der Abt. von Prof. Heinz Bonfadelli zugeordnet. Zum Stellenprofil gehören ein ausgeprägtes Interesse an wissenschaftlicher Weiterqualifikation im Forschungsbereich „Medienrealität und Medienwirkung" sowie Aufgaben in der Lehre (speziell eine Methodenvorlesung) und im Administrationsbereich die Funktion eines Prüfungsdelegierten für die BA-/MA-Studiengänge. Voraussetzung für die Einstellung ist ein überdurchschnittlicher Abschluss in Publizistik- resp. Kommunikationswissenschaft mit Dissertation, gute Kenntnisse der Methoden der empirischen Sozialforschung und Interesse an Fragen der Theorie und Empirie der medienvermittelten Kommunikation. Bewerbungen mit den üblichen Unterlagen sind bis spätestens Mitte November zu richten an: Prof. Dr. Heinz Bonfadelli IPMZ - Institut für Publizistikwissenschaft und Medienforschung Universität Zürich Andreasstr. 15 CH-8050 Zürich h.bonfadelli at ipmz.uzh.ch ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Nico Carpentier (Phd) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vrije Universiteit Brussel - Free University of Brussels Centre for Studies on Media and Culture (CeMeSO) Pleinlaan 2 - B-1050 Brussels - Belgium T: ++ 32 (0)2-629.18.56 F: ++ 32 (0)2-629.36.84 Office: 5B.401a ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 10:48:25 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:48:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sarvagyapeeth and terror Message-ID: The website displays Sudhakar as a crusader 13 Nov 2008, 0200 hrs IST, Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui, TNN LUCKNOW: "To restore the age-old glory of Sharda Mandir in PoK. To make aware our countrymen about the dangers in Kashmir spreading in the whole country. To contribute to the struggle of displaced Hindus in their rehabilitation. Publication of rare manuscripts of Kashmir. To organise "Dharma Bachao- Desh Bachao Yatra aur Rashtra Raksha Yagya" .... reads the welcome message on the home page of the website (www.sarvagyapeeth.com) of Sharda Sarvagyapeeth of Swami Amritanand Dev Tirth Shankaracharya alias Sudhakar Dwivedi alias Dayanand Pandey — the Malegaon blast connection of Uttar Pradesh who was detained by the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) of the Mumbai Police. Investigators say that Amritanand is a self-proclaimed Shankaracharya and has no association with other establish peeths in India. The website was traced after Sudhakar himself provided the address to the interrogators after he was picked up from Kanpur and brought to Lucknow. Created supposedly with a copyright registration of 2007 the website has an impressive homepage but most of the Sarvagyapeeth literarature is photocopies of January 2007 edition of the opening pages of Sharda Sandesh — a quaterly bilingual newsletter from the Sarvagyapeeth. Sources associated with the probe said that Sudhakar had met all the Malegaon blast accused arrested so far by the ATS and was in regular touch with them. "His name figured in the interrogation of almost all the accused — be it the senior army officers or Sadhvi Pragya herself," admitted a senior officer of the ATS here on Wednesday night. Investigators were now trying to retract all the e-mails sent from and received by the two e-mail IDs of Sudhakar and transaction details of his account with a nationalised bank that was discovered during the initial stages of his interrogation. Sources said that after his initial stay at Kanpur, Sudhakar shifted to Varanasi from where he reached Jammu in 2005-06 where he floated the Sarvagyapeeth. Investigators believe that the genuine Peeth actually existed in Pak occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Sudhakar opened a Peeth in Kashmir on his own. "We are yet to establish any link between the PoK Peeth and the one launched by Sudhakar," said a senior officer associated with the probe. As per the website, the Sarvagyapeeth has its registered office at 248, Sector 1-A, Trikuta Nagar, Jammu Tavi 180012, J&K with phone numbers 9419190809 and 0191-2471031. While the mobile number was unapproachable, the landline number was attended by a male. When asked by TOI if it was the telelphone number of Sarvagyapeeth, a sleepy voice on the other side retorted: " Sonay do bhai ... yeh koi peeth veeth ka number nahin hai " (Please let me sleep. This number doesn;t belong to any peeth) before he hung up. The cellphone number (9419194506) provided against the camp office of the Peeth was also not contactable. The camp office address read at Maa Sharika Mandir, Village Anangpur, Faridabad (Harayana) with emailaddressesshardapeeth at gmail.com and sarvagyapeethkashmir at sancharnet.in. The most impressive part of the website is the picture gallery showing Swami Amritanand Dev Tirth Shankaracharya alias Sudhakar Dwivedi in conversation with some important personalities of the country including a former president of India, a film star and a bureaucrat apart from a stream of political personalities from across the country. Out of the six patrons of the Sarvagyapeeth, as mentioned in the website, at least four are Padamshri and one hails from Lucknow. The Sanatan Yatra page of the website also contains 21 pictures showing Sudhakar addressing students at a school and his followers. A separate page attributed to donations announces that all amounts given as donation are exempted from income tax under section 80G of the Income Tax Act 1961. The Sarvagyapeeth offers three categories of memberships including founder / life member at Rs 21,000, honourable/special life member for Rs 5,100 and life member for Rs 2,100. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Website_displays_Sudhakar_as_a_crusader/articleshow/3706373.cms From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 10:58:25 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:58:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra! In-Reply-To: <384529.1225.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <854602.68525.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <384529.1225.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70811122128h9ed4587o93a96f257bd2d102@mail.gmail.com> I was irrevocably betrothed to laughter, the sound of which has always seemed to me to be the most civilized music in the world. Peter Ustinov On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 4:45 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > (this is just for record since Gowhar having chosen to ignore me will not get to read this) > > Dear Gowhar > > Your concession (even if were a graceful one) gives me no joy. I would have been happy if I had managed to nudge you out of the gridlock of your mind towards a more expansive and inclusive thinking. It was not to be. > > I am saddened that you have chosen to ignore me. > > My comments on the two quotes of Peter Ustinov you have given: > > - Nightmares are as much a part of you as your dreams are. Nightmares are nothing else but your dreams that you do not like. Both are the products of your own mind. > > - The endless forgiveness required for Love is not for others alone. You must be able to forgive your own self too. It may be hard to forgive others. It is much harder to forgive your own self. > > Here are two other quotes attributed to Peter Ustinov: > > 1. "Once we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our mind, our one duty is to furnish it well." > > 2. "Intelligent or not, we all make mistakes and perhaps the intelligent mistakes are the worst, because so much careful thought has gone into them" > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > From: gowhar fazli > Subject: [Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra! > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 10:54 PM > > Bravo Kshmendra just won! > > > From hence forth i am planning to ignore him. > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams > is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. > > Peter Ustinov > > > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Subject: Lies withdrawn & Accusations questioned >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , > gowharfazili at yahoo.com >> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:56 PM >> Dear Gowhar >> >> I do not comment on every single posting about Kashmir. >> Even when I feel strongly about something that might have >> been mentioned, I do not always comment. Sometimes I do. >> >> This List is one such public forum of record that (as far >> as we know today) gets archived for 'ever' and >> therefore will serve as a very convienient and easily >> accesible reference library for all such >> subjects/topics/issues that get mentioned on >> it. Non-factual information on it needs to be challenged. >> >> If one were to use on the Web the search string of >> "amarnath land row" and "deaths" it >> would throw up your mail saying that "The valley has >> seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath >> land row". >> >> That is not opinion but information. Incorrect information. >> Thank you for having withdrawn it. >> >> You might still be smarting (understandably so) by my abuse >> directed at you, but that does not mean you should >> misrepresent what I had written. >> >> We have both regretted the death of 'innocents'. >> What makes your use of that word sincere and my use as being >> loaded with other meanings as suggested by you? >> >> Not only did I write about the deaths of >> 'innocents': >> >> """"""" It is true that >> 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since >> the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such >> death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized >> society """"" >> >> Going further than that, I also wrote about the deaths of >> others who (by whichever standard and from whichever point >> of view) might not be seen as "innocents. I wrote: >> >> """""" I consider even the >> deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of >> violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, >> regretable and avoidable.""""" >> >> If it is not clear from the above and I need to spell it >> out; For me any death (in context) is unfortunate, sad, >> regretable, avoidable, unacceptable. >> >> Since it is the season for talking about >> "Accusations" on this List, let me come to those >> directed by you at me. >> >> 1. In the earlier mail you seem to suggest that you were a >> 'special target of abuse' because you are a >> "Kashmiri Muslim". I see it as an accusation that >> you need to prove. >> >> In your first post, neither did you identify yourself as >> being a Kashmiri Muslim, nor did I recognise you as being >> one when I 'abused' you. Isnt that correct? >> >> On the other hand, without any such reference to myself by >> me, you gave me the identity-tag of a "Brahmin". >> Alongwith it you gave me attributes of attitudes of >> various kinds of 'hates'. You had no justification >> for doing so. >> >> My attack on you and the 'abuse' was at you as the >> author of the words you had posted. You as a person and not >> at any identity-tag you may carry or want to be recognised >> by. >> >> 2. You do need to prove all the "Accusations" >> directed at me: >> >> - "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and >> inferior"; >> - "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; >> - "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and >> abuse"; >> - "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for >> abuse". >> >> Gowhar, you are so very wide-off-the-mark on every one of >> those accusations that it is amusing. If nothing else, my >> postings on this List testify to that, so do not bother to >> defend your accusations. I excuse you. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli >> wrote: >> >> From: gowhar fazli >> Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal >> Abuse... >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" >> >> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:01 PM >> >> Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include >> Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has >> bettered >> mine. I thank him for his work of genius. In fact, >> between >> the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they >> choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality >> depending on where they come from, and take moral >> positions. >> >> >> To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so >> close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5" >> figure and replace it with "scores of people", >> "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has >> become a norm" or "extraordinary number"... >> For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less, >> is equally criminal (notice he puts the word >> 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may >> not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is >> innocent!) Killing a couple of hundred more or less does >> not make a very big difference to the immorality of >> shooting >> on crowds to force them indoors. >> >> The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat >> conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim) >> and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect >> identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. >> But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am >> glad they are both physically safe... for now. >> >> >> > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim >> > wrote: >> > >> > > From: inder salim >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to >> > spitting and verbal Abuse... >> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM >> > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that >> is >> > the >> > > question: A >> > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and >> Kshmendra >> > ---- ( >> > > keeping in >> > > mind that the facts are stranger than fiction, >> but >> > the >> > > reverse can >> > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet >> > theirs >> > > only ) >> > > >> > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about >> exact >> > > statistics of >> > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in >> > Kashmir. >> > > Even Panun >> > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, >> since >> > late >> > > nineties, >> > > should have given a breather to India to bring >> about a >> > > serious >> > > dialogue. But what do they do? >> > > >> > > Kshmendra: I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a >> young >> > > woman >> > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats >> she is >> > > receiving... >> > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I >> know >> > of >> > > so many of >> > > them who have used and subverted democratic >> > institutions >> > > for their own >> > > interest. >> > > >> > > Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though >> I >> > agree in >> > > part with yours. >> > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a >> daily >> > > basis since >> > > Amarnath land row. >> > > >> > > ( I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and Cosmic SHE >> will be >> > > talking to each >> > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in >> kashmir >> > ?) >> > > >> > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair. >> > > >> > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine. >> > > >> > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' >> have >> > died >> > > in the 'valley' >> > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I >> consider >> > any >> > > such death as >> > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized >> > society. >> > > But yours, >> > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the >> > 'theatre >> > > of false propaganda. >> > > >> > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom >> you >> > do >> > > not like or >> > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a >> > > 'moron' >> > > >> > > Kshmendra : for sure you are a "moron' >> and a >> > > "filthy liar" and fully >> > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'. >> > > >> > > Gowhar : 'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how >> > Kashmiris >> > > should behave >> > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership >> has to >> > > suite India's >> > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' >> that >> > the >> > > basic >> > > conditions for such an exercise and the >> atmosphere to >> > > engender such a >> > > collectively have been systematically removed >> from >> > Kashmir; >> > > Just to >> > > keep people from demonstrating for Azadi or >> > protesting >> > > against >> > > elections… >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > to be continued.... >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> > > wrote: >> > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili >> > > > >> > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is >> > something >> > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in >> 'aside' >> > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of >> > > information. In this case your 'filthy >> lie' >> > of: >> > > > >> > > > """""" The >> valley >> > has >> > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis >> since >> > Amarnath >> > > land >> row.""""""" >> > > > >> > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2) >> > > > >> > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy >> lie' >> > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might >> be >> > it's >> > > author, whether in a factual representation or in >> a >> > > fictional one. >> > > > >> > > > If you are not the protagonist >> "HE" in >> > your >> > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed >> about >> > any >> > > comments directed at "HIM". >> > > > >> > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to >> > describe >> > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) >> is a >> > word >> > > that I have not introduced into this List to >> describe >> > > someone like you. >> > > > >> > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in >> your >> > > conversation piece then for sure you are a >> > "moron' >> > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving >> of >> > what >> > > you call 'abuse'. >> > > > >> > > > You whine that I should have placed >> 'counter >> > > figures' of what you think would be "a >> dozen >> > more >> > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine >> > considering >> > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) >> realistic >> > > 'death count' and the 'figures' >> > suggested by >> > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count >> of 2 >> > to >> > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. >> > There, one >> > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot. >> > > > >> > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started >> > sometime >> > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since >> it >> > started. >> > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to >> 5', >> > the >> > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. >> Do >> > you see >> > > what an 'idiot' you are? >> > > > >> > > > In this particular case let me distort the >> > application >> > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The >> "Latin >> > legal >> > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, >> non qui >> > negat >> > > (the >> > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on >> who >> > > denies)" In this case your assertion of >> > > """""" The valley >> has >> > seen two >> > > to five people dead on a daily basis since >> Amarnath >> > land >> > > row.""""""" >> > > > >> > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to >> place >> > me >> > > into a compartment for which you have the >> identifying >> > > construct of "abused as a child"; >> > "severe >> > > mental imbalance"; "(needing) >> psychological >> > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you >> are >> > impure >> > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as >> to >> > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current >> objects >> > of hate >> > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as >> special >> > > targets for abuse". >> > > > >> > > > This is one more 'theatrical device' >> in >> > the >> > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If >> questioned >> > about >> > > "filthy lies" for which you have no >> > justifiable, >> > > credible and believable response you attack the >> > questioner >> > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her >> that >>> will >> > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with >> suspicion and >> > shift >> > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'. >> > > > >> > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me >> can >> > only >> > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not >> excuse >> > your >> > > "filthy lie" >> > > > >> > > > Kshmendra >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > From: gowhar fazli >> >> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more >> to >> > spitting >> > > and verbal Abuse... >> > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net" >> > > >> > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM >> > > > >> > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... >> > > Kshmendra's use of this language >> > > > against me on the readers list suggests he >> might >> > have >> > > been abused as a child. >> > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being >> > abused as >> > > a child can create severe >> > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among >> > people. It >> > > might be high time for >> > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological >> help >> > > because it has bearing on his >> > > > quality of life and of those around him. >> > > > >> > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the >> > 'HE' >> > > in the dialogue I >> > > > posted... in which case he could have placed >> his >> > > counter figures (say a couple >> > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and >> decently >> > asked >> > > for the source....There was >> > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive. >> > > > >> > > > The other more profound explanation could be >> that >> > it >> > > forms part of his >> > > > socialisation and culture. Brahmin's >> have >> > long >> > > held it to be their right to >> > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and >> > inferior. >> > > So in this light, cases >> > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not >> like or >> > > calling somebody a 'filthy >> > > > liar' or a 'moron' might be an >> > attempt to >> > > reclaim that right and >> > > > culture against the current community they >> hate, >> > or to >> > > use a turn of phrase, >> > > > want to Dalitize... Muslims appear to be >> the >> > current >> > > objects of hate and insult >> > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most >> > assertive >> > > among them, they happen to >> > > > be the special targetsof abuse. >> > > > >> > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about >> exact >> > > statistics of the dead, but two >> > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... >> Hers, >> > that >> > > the democratic exercise >> > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the >> > collective >> > > good... His, that the >> > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and >> the >> > > atmosphere to engender such a >> > > > collectivity have been systematically >> removed >> > Kashmir. >> > > > >> > > > Is it strange that he did not have any >> opinion on >> > > this? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> > > >> > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A >> > filthy >> > > lie by Gowhar Fazli. >> > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" >> > > , >> > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com >> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 >> PM >> > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli >> > > >> >> > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the >> > conversation >> > > you have >> > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself >> are >> > the >> > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy >> liar. >> > > >> >> > > >> I refer to the statement: >> > > >> >> > > >> """""" >> The >> > valley >> > > has seen >> > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis >> > since >> > > Amarnath land >> > > >> >> > row.""""""" >> > > >> >> > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have >> died >> > in >> > > the >> > > >> 'valley' since the start of the >> > Amarnath >> > > Land Row. I >> > > >> consider any such death as sad, >> unfortunate >> > and >> > > unacceptable >> > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even >> the >> > > deaths of >> > > >> those who have consciously chosen the >> path of >> > > violence to >> > > >> further their agenda as being sad, >> > unfortunate, >> > > regretable >> > > >> and avoidable. >> > > >> >> > > >> But that does not mean that >> 'morons' >> > like >> > > >> you should have the licence to float >> blatant >> > lies >> > > on this >> > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with >> the >> > smug >> > > >> thought that you will not be questioned. >> > > >> >> > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you >> a >> > > 'filthy >> > > >> liar'? >> > > >> >> > > >> I invite you to evidence the statement >> of 2 >> > to 5 >> > > deaths >> > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the >> start >> > of >> > > the >> > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any >> > credible >> > > news source >> > > >> of your choice. A credible news source >> would >> > for >> > > sure have >> > > >> a presence on the Web where your >> statement >> > can be >> > > confirmed >> > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being >> a >> > > 'filthy >> > > >> lie' as I have called it. >> > > >> >> > > >> Kshmendra >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli >> > > >> wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >> From: gowhar fazli >> > >> > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah >> Muah! >> > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" >> > > >> >> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 >> PM >> > > >> >> > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! >> > (Commenting >> > > on my >> > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!) >> > > >> >> > > >> HE: :) >> > > >> >> > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance >> and >> > > bollywud magic >> > > >> that day on tv >> > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and >> > > kisses....wah!!! >> > > >> >> > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one >> in >> > > Kashmir n one >> > > >> in US! >> > > >> >> > > >> SHE: How can there be any >> comparison.....look >> > at >> > > the >> > > >> conduct of political >> > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for >> each >> > > other....more >> > > >> to blame is also >> > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream >> > > India......in fact in >> > > >> south Asia, the >> > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote >> bank >> > and >> > > slur....we >> > > >> still have to grow as >> > > >> a democracy...remember we are only >> 60..as >> > compared >> > > to US >> > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir >> > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what >> exactly >> > they >> > > blame >> > > >> the Indian govt of >> > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, >> a >> > young >> > > woman >> > > >> contesting from >> > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is >> > > receiving... what >> > > >> does the Hurriyat want >> > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of >> them >> > who >> > > have used >> > > >> and subverted >> > > >> democratic institutions for their own >> > interest. U >> > > know the >> > > >> major draw back in >> > > >> our part of the world is that we do not >> have >> > the >> > > courage >> > > >> for self correctness, >> > > >> self introspection.....USA did >> that....they >> > have >> > > brought in >> > > >> change...I admire >> > > >> that... >> > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen.... >> > > >> >> > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this >> though I >> > agree >> > > in part >> > > >> with yours >> > > >> >> > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to >> Kashmir >> > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a >> call >> > for >> > > Jamia >> > > >> Chalo for killing of 5 >> > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947..... >> > > >> >> > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people >> > protested >> > > in Kashmir >> > > >> for Azadi and were >> > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the >> protests... >> > > Kashmir is in >> > > >> no mood for election >> > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed... >> > without >> > > any >> > > >> negotiation with the >> > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the >> > government >> > > can offer >> > > >> is to impose a >> > > >> conventional election to meet its >> deadline to >> > show >> > > that all >> > > >> is well in Kashmir. >> > > >> It is not. >> > > >> I think the bigger problem is this not >> the >> > > morality of >> > > >> our local politicians. >> > > >> the conditions we live in can only >> produce >> > the >> > > kind of >> > > >> politicians we presently >> > > >> have. >> > > >> USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush >> for >> > eight >> > > years >> > > >> before it was time for >> > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi >> decides >> > how >> > > Kashmiris >> > > >> should behave and who >> > > >> should be in power. >> > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite >> India's >> > > self-image its >> > > >> foreign policy and >> > > >> morality. >> > > >> >> > > >> SHE: you forget that people who are >> standing >> > for >> > > elections >> > > >> ( record number >> > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each >> other >> > , >> > > their party >> > > >> workers shouting anti >> > > >> India slogans ) or people wanting to >> vote >> > are >> > > also >> > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun >> > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though >> for >> > > different >> > > >> reasons. They are >> > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who >> want >> > to >> > > vote are >> > > >> Kashmiris too...so are >> > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are >> > Ladhakis , >> > > Poocnhis, >> > > >> etc who want to >> > > >> vote...no one is shying away from >> resolving >> > the >> > > >> issue...spell out the agenda >> > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why >> > intimidate >> > > them, >> > > >> kill them...why instill >> > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say >> > they..I >> > > mean all >> > > >> those, religious >> > > >> groups, media, separatist so called >> > > nationalist.... who >> > > >> want to build their own >> > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu >> or >> > anywhere >> > > >> else...as I said we need to >> > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues >> is >> > bit >> > > >> difficult... >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> HE: I didn't forget them... >> Ladakhis, >> > Pandits, >> > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who >> > > >> want to vote for various reasons... Yet >> >> > daily >> > > killing to >> > > >> keep people to keep >> > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or >> > protesting >> > > against >> > > >> elections (peacefully I >> > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily >> armed >> > > security forces >> > > >> from by lanes as >> > > >> serious violence especially when you are >> > > permanently held >> > > >> under section 144) >> > > >> cannot be justified because some people >> there >> > or >> > > elsewhere >> > > >> want to vote. The >> > > >> context in which elections are happening >> is >> > pure >> > > >> imposition... more of what has >> > > >> been happening all along. >> > > >> Given the circumstances in Kashmir, >> spelling >> > out >> > > agendas >> > > >> is not possible and >> > > >> largely the establishment which wields >> power >> > in >> > > Kashmir is >> > > >> responsible for >> > > >> maintaining such a situation there. >> There >> > is >> > > too much >> > > >> intelligence >> > > >> interference... too much security >> structure >> > to >> > > allow people >> > > >> to breathe... let >> > > >> alone have a Democratic process. Too >> much of >> > > humiliation >> > > >> on the daily basis to >> > > >> let a person feel human enough... Even >> > those who >> > > were >> > > >> alienated from religion >> > > >> or primordial identities are being >> pushed to >> > adopt >> > > these >> > > >> for bare survival. In >> > > >> wake of this the only articulation that >> is >> > > possible is hate >> > > >> or violence. You >> > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and >> ask >> > him/her >> > > to talk >> > > >> peace. They might >> > > >> oblige until you get off... but then >> hate you >> > with >> > > all the >> > > >> intensity they can >> > > >> muster soon after that. >> > > >> I think the situation is like this... >> We >> > have >> > > beaten >> > > >> Kashmiris to the point of >> > > >> making them into brutes... and now we >> justify >> > the >> > > >> continuity of violence by >> > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and >> > deserve >> > > it! >> > > >> Two stints of stooge governments in >> Kashmir >> > since >> > > late >> > > >> nineties should have >> > > >> given a breather to India to bring about >> a >> > serious >> > > >> dialogue. But what do they >> > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is >> the >> > solution >> > > and >> > > >> squander the chance. >> > > >> We cannot maintain the facade of moral >> > preachers >> > > after all >> > > >> that has happened >> > > >> in Kashmir. We must bow our heads in >> shame >> > and >> > > let the >> > > >> people have their say. >> > > >> Even though what they decide might not >> be to >> > our >> > > liking and >> > > >> in our opinion >> > > >> disastrous for them. Too often our >> personal >> > > interests get >> > > >> enmeshed with our >> > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment >> such >> > that we >> > > cannot >> > > >> see what is actually >> > > >> happening to people. >> > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing >> > judgments >> > > on the >> > > >> people of Kashmir and >> > > >> demonizing them. I hope more of the >> civil >> > society >> > > >> activists who engage with >> > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so. >> > > >> >> > > >> When you refer to intimidation and >> killing i >> > am >> > > surprised >> > > >> that you miss out the >> > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right >> > now... the >> > > CRPF! >> > > >> You see we percieve >> > > >> different realities because of where >> each of >> > us is >> > > located. >> > > >> The valley has seen >> > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis >> > since >> > > Amarnath >> > > >> land row. This seems to >> > > >> be the current policy. CRPF is >> communalised. >> > I >> > > have my >> > > >> batchmates within the >> > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts >> of >> > how the >> > > force >> > > >> percieves ordinary >> > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed >> or >> > > humiliated for >> > > >> no reason but for >> > > >> what they are. >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> _________________________________________ >> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media >> > and >> > > the city. >> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > > >> To subscribe: send an email to >> > > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> > in >> > > >> the subject header. >> > > >> To unsubscribe: >> > > >> >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > >> List archive: >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> > the >> > > city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> > > > the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: >> > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> > the >> > > city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the >> > subject >> > > header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the >> > city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to >> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the >> > subject >> > > header. >> > > To unsubscribe: >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 11:18:40 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:18:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sarvagyapeeth and terror In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70811122148s48d86207p8eed5cc6b875393c@mail.gmail.com> thaanks dear javed for this forward day by day, the plot thickens, new actors join in, we need a aurthur canon to provide us an unending twist in the tale, that was fantasy, this is real, so more intense !!! i pressed their website,it indeed has a impressive page, but nothing moves further, even its unique philosophy button. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Javed wrote: > The website displays Sudhakar as a crusader > 13 Nov 2008, 0200 hrs IST, Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui, TNN > > LUCKNOW: "To restore the age-old glory of Sharda Mandir in PoK. To > make aware our countrymen about the dangers in Kashmir spreading in > the whole > country. To contribute to the struggle of displaced Hindus in their > rehabilitation. > > Publication of rare manuscripts of Kashmir. To organise "Dharma > Bachao- Desh Bachao Yatra aur Rashtra Raksha Yagya" .... reads the > welcome message on the home page of the website > (www.sarvagyapeeth.com) of Sharda Sarvagyapeeth of Swami Amritanand > Dev Tirth Shankaracharya alias Sudhakar Dwivedi alias Dayanand Pandey > — the Malegaon blast connection of Uttar Pradesh who was detained by > the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) of the Mumbai Police. > > Investigators say that Amritanand is a self-proclaimed Shankaracharya > and has no association with other establish peeths in India. > > The website was traced after Sudhakar himself provided the address to > the interrogators after he was picked up from Kanpur and brought to > Lucknow. Created supposedly with a copyright registration of 2007 the > website has an impressive homepage but most of the Sarvagyapeeth > literarature is photocopies of January 2007 edition of the opening > pages of Sharda Sandesh — a quaterly bilingual newsletter from the > Sarvagyapeeth. > > Sources associated with the probe said that Sudhakar had met all the > Malegaon blast accused arrested so far by the ATS and was in regular > touch with them. "His name figured in the interrogation of almost all > the accused — be it the senior army officers or Sadhvi Pragya > herself," admitted a senior officer of the ATS here on Wednesday > night. Investigators were now trying to retract all the e-mails sent > from and received by the two e-mail IDs of Sudhakar and transaction > details of his account with a nationalised bank that was discovered > during the initial stages of his interrogation. > > Sources said that after his initial stay at Kanpur, Sudhakar shifted > to Varanasi from where he reached Jammu in 2005-06 where he floated > the Sarvagyapeeth. Investigators believe that the genuine Peeth > actually existed in Pak occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Sudhakar opened a > Peeth in Kashmir on his own. "We are yet to establish any link between > the PoK Peeth and the one launched by Sudhakar," said a senior officer > associated with the probe. > > As per the website, the Sarvagyapeeth has its registered office at > 248, Sector 1-A, Trikuta Nagar, Jammu Tavi 180012, J&K with phone > numbers 9419190809 and 0191-2471031. > > While the mobile number was unapproachable, the landline number was > attended by a male. When asked by TOI if it was the telelphone number > of Sarvagyapeeth, a sleepy voice on the other side retorted: " Sonay > do bhai ... yeh koi peeth veeth ka number nahin hai " (Please let me > sleep. This number doesn;t belong to any peeth) before he hung up. The > cellphone number (9419194506) provided against the camp office of the > Peeth was also not contactable. The camp office address read at Maa > Sharika Mandir, Village Anangpur, Faridabad (Harayana) with > emailaddressesshardapeeth at gmail.com and > sarvagyapeethkashmir at sancharnet.in. > > The most impressive part of the website is the picture gallery showing > Swami Amritanand Dev Tirth Shankaracharya alias Sudhakar Dwivedi in > conversation with some important personalities of the country > including a former president of India, a film star and a bureaucrat > apart from a stream of political personalities from across the > country. > > Out of the six patrons of the Sarvagyapeeth, as mentioned in the > website, at least four are Padamshri and one hails from Lucknow. The > Sanatan Yatra page of the website also contains 21 pictures showing > Sudhakar addressing students at a school and his followers. > > A separate page attributed to donations announces that all amounts > given as donation are exempted from income tax under section 80G of > the Income Tax Act 1961. > > The Sarvagyapeeth offers three categories of memberships including > founder / life member at Rs 21,000, honourable/special life member for > Rs 5,100 and life member for Rs 2,100. > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Website_displays_Sudhakar_as_a_crusader/articleshow/3706373.cms > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From cahen.x at levels9.com Wed Nov 12 21:30:12 2008 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:00:12 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 12-11 to 03-12-2008 Message-ID: <491AFD8C.1080100@levels9.com> pourinfos.org L'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ------------------------------------------------------------------- From Wednesday, 12 November 2008 to Wednesday 03 December 2008 (included) @ 001 (12/11/2008) Job: a stage manager, center for contemporary art of the Synagogue Delme, Delmas, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36074-tit--un-r-gisseur-Le-centre-d-art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (12/11/2008) Call: @600 _ photography project, mus-mus.org, San Bernardino, Usa. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36078-tit-Appel-Candidature-600-photography -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (12/11/2008) Publication: The art, body, desire-anthropological Roadmaps "L'art, le corps, le désir - Cheminements anthropologiques" by Jean-Olivier MAJASTRE, Editions L'Harmattan, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36106-tit--L-art-le-corps-le-d-sir-Cheminements -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (13/11/2008) Meetings: Big bang, 1 Exhibition of art and publishing, Aponia, 13 and 14 September, Villiers sur Marne, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35962-tit--Big-bang-1-er-Salon-de-l-art-et-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (13/11/2008) Call for participation : Light, Space and Perception Work Group, Medialab-Prado, Madrid, Spain. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36057-tit--Light-Space-and-Perception-Work-Group- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (13/11/2008) Publication: Exile in mind "Exil en tête", Christophe Masse, Pierre Mainard editor, Menac, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36105-tit--Exil-en-t-te-Christophe-Mass-Pierre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (13/11/2008) Publication: Actualite du patrimoine, Editions university of Dijon, Dijon, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36107-tit--Actualit-du-patrimoine-Editions -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (13/11/2008) Meetings: "The Louvre invited Pierre Boulez," "broadcasting service of music", "faces to faces", symposium, music video, in the presence of Pierre Boulez, Thursday, 13 November 2008, Auditorium du Louvre, Paris, France . http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36114-tit--Le-Louvre-invite-Pierre-Boulez- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (13/11/2008) Call fo participation : Call for Papers - Simulation scientific and artistic realization "Simulation scientifique et matérialisation artistique', Betonsalon, art center and research, centre d'art et de recherche, La Halle aux Farines, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36117-tit--Appel-communications-Journ-es-d-tude -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (13/11/2008) Meetings: Men prefer blondes "Les Hommes préfèrent les blondes" Representations of the blond in the arts, Study Day-doctoral researchers, 17 January 2009 Paris III Sorbonne Nouvelle, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36120-tit--Les-Hommes-pr-f-rent-les-blondes -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (14/11/2008) Call: 3rd edition of the poster graphic in the street "graphisme dans la rue" , Fontenay-sous-bois, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36055-tit--3e-dition-du-concours-d-affiche -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (14/11/2008) Call fo participation: Call for Articles and Net Art, On-line journal Hz, Stockholm, Sweden. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36058-tit--Call-for-Articles-and-Net-Art-On-line -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (14/11/2008) Call for participation: Festival "Images Mouvementées", Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36077-tit--Festival-Images-Mouvement-es-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (14/11/2008) Publication: FACE TO REEL "FACE AU REEL " Ethics of form in contemporary art Editor Giovanni Careri and Bernhard Rüdiger Archibooks editions, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36093-tit--FACE-AU-REEL-thique-de-la-forme-dans -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (14/11/2008) Publication: newspaper "Pause", number 1: generational, Edited by Regional Fund for Contemporary Art (FRAC) of Burgundy, Dijon, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36101-tit--le-journal-Pause-sortie-du-1er-num-ro -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (14/11/2008) Meetings: Images of the confrontation "Strategies and iconic text of jealousy, falling, cruelty," Symposium of the Center for Research on the images and their relationships, 14 and 15 November 2008, Institut National d'Histoire de l'Art , Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36115-tit--Les-images-de-l-affrontement-Strat-gies -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (15/11/2008) Call: Call for Submissions 2009 Subtle Technologies Festival, Toronto, Canada. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36056-tit--Call-for-Submissions-2009-Subtle -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (15/11/2008) Job: developer and administrator digital, groupedunes, Marseille, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36076-tit--d-veloppeur-informatique-et-r-gisseur -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (15/11/2008) Publication: "Poétiques du numérique", Collection "L'electron", Editions L'Entretemps, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36091-tit--Po-tiques-du-num-rique-Collection -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (15/11/2008) Publication: ARMAN interview (2004) The text and its production conditions, Pierre BaraccaGeneviève RousselMarie-Claire Trân Vàn-Nory, Sociologie des Arts, editions L'harmattan, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36095-tit--ARMAN-un-entretien-d-artiste-2004-Le -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (15/11/2008) Publication: The Art of the art market "L'Art du Marché de l'Art" by Marie Maertens, editions Que, Brussels, Belgium. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36098-tit--L-Art-du-March-de-l-Art-par-Marie -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (15/11/2008) Publication: visual arts "arts visuels", edition Archibooks, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36099-tit--arts-visuels-dition-Archibooks-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (15/11/2008) Meetings: Open source in the musical production Digital and hybridization, 15 November 2008, Les Rendez Vous Electronics in 2008, Musée des Arts et Metiers, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36110-tit--L-open-source-dans-la-production -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (16/11/2008) Call: Call for Submissions: International Fellowship Programme for Visual Arts and Theory 2009/2010, Kunstlerhaus Buchsenhausen, Innsbruck, Austria. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36059-tit--Call-for-Submissions-International -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (16/11/2008) Call : Test, The 9th Festival of Student Theatre and Multimedia Test!, Zagreb, Croatia. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36060-tit--Test-The-9th-Festival-of-Student-Theatre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (16/11/2008) Call : Art & Fac, association C'Dynamique, university of Bordeaux III, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36063-tit--Art-Fac-association-C-Dynamique- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (16/11/2008) Call: Festival of the environmental image, Montreuil sous Bois, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36064-tit--Festival-de-l-Image-Environnementale- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (16/11/2008) Job: conducting its annex Paris Gallery Dialogos, Cachan, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36075-tit--direction-de-son-annexe-parisienne- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (16/11/2008) Call for participation: Call for papers, symposium Experience, practice, teaching arts and culture, Montpellier II, Montpellier, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36079-tit--appel-communication-colloque-Eprouver- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (16/11/2008) Publication: The cultural history: a "turning world" in historiography? "L'histoire culturelle : un "tournant mondial" dans l'historiographie ?" edited by Philippe Poirrier, Editions University of Dijon, Dijon, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36085-tit--L-histoire-culturelle-un-tournant -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (16/11/2008) Publication: « Dominator » by Pascal Rivet, Zedele editions, Brest, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36088-tit--Dominator-de-Pascal-Rivet-Z-d-l- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (16/11/2008) Publication: Malachi Farrell at work, Lowave , Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36089-tit--Malachi-Farrell-l-oeuvre-Lowave- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (16/11/2008) Publication: VIDEO IMAGE "L'IMAGE VIDÉO " From Ovid to Bill Viola, Sophie-Isabelle Dufour, editions Archibooks, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36092-tit--L-IMAGE-VID-O-D-Ovide-Bill-Viola- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (16/11/2008) Publication: Christophe Bailleau, 8 films en guerison, with the collaboration of Julie Maréchal, collection Electrons libres, éditions 68 Septante asbl, Brussels, Belgium. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36094-tit--Christophe-Bailleau-8-films-en-gu-rison- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (16/11/2008) Publication: 2.0.1, Revue de recherche sur l'art du XIXe au XXIe siècle review research on the art of the nineteenth in the twenty-first century 1st Issue - November 2008, Rennes, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36096-tit--2-0-1-Revue-de-recherche-sur-l-art-du -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (16/11/2008) Publication: N° 22 October 2008 : Stories from an art medium networks art, photographic studies, Paris, France. "Histoires d'un art moyen / Les réseaux de l'art," Etudes photographiques, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36097-tit--N-22-Octobre-2008-Histoires-d-un-art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (16/11/2008) Publication: Archee, periodic electronic 10_2008, Montreal, Canada. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36100-tit--Arch-e-p-riodique-lectronique-10-2008- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (16/11/2008) Publication: The European festivals, Zagreb in Edinburgh, views Crusaders "L'Europe des festivals" Coordinated by Anne-Marie Autissier, the attribute Publishing, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36104-tit--L-Europe-des-festivals-est-paru- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (17/11/2008) Call: International Short Film Festival Detmold, Germany. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36061-tit--International-Short-Film-Festival -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 040 (17/11/2008) Call: CALL FOR PROJECTS, dance and new technologies DIGITAL BATH # 4 _ International Festival of Digital Arts d'Enghien-les-Bains, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36062-tit--APPEL-PROJETS-danse-et-nouvelles -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 041 (17/11/2008) Call: Biennale of Young Artists from Europe and the Mediterranean, Skopje, Macedonia. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36065-tit-Biennale-des-Jeunes-Cr-ateurs-de-l-Europe -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 042 (17/11/2008) Call: Legs of women and men in the art of beginning of the third millennium "Jambes de femmes et d'hommes dans l'Art du début du troisième millénaire", AiA art, Castle des Reaux, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36066-tit--Jambes-de-femmes-et-d-hommes-dans-l-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 043 (17/11/2008) Call: Christian et Yvonne Zervos prize, Vezelay, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36067-tit--Prix-Christian-et-Yvonne-Zervos-Vezelay- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 044 (17/11/2008) Call: tank.tv: 1st 2008/9 International Call for Submissions, London, United Kingodom. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36068-tit--tank-tv-1st-2008-9-International-Call -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 045 (18/11/2008) Society: Feminist Artists // Questionário - Artistas Feministas //Cuestionario - Artistas Feministas, Universidad del Pais Vasco // Instituto de Sociologia da Faculdade de Letras / Universidade do Porto, Portugal. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36069-tit-Soci-t-Feminist-Artists-Question-rio -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 046 (18/11/2008) Various: Atelier to rent 65 m2, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36071-tit-Divers-Atelier-louer-65-m2-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 047 (18/11/2008) Society: Artistic education in France is threatened, Ecole superieure d?arts de Rueil-Malmaison, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36072-tit-Soci-t-L-enseignement-artistique-en -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 048 (18/11/2008) Residence: Ferme-Asile, Sion, Switzerland. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36081-tit-R-sidence-Ferme-Asile-Sion- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 049 (18/11/2008) Publication: The Eureka moment of invention A dialogue between art and science "Eurêka Le moment de l'invention Un dialogue entre art et science", under the direction of Ivan TOULOUSE and Daniel DANIETIS, Collection « Arts 8», L'harmattan, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36084-tit--Eur-ka-Le-moment-de-l-invention-Un -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 050 (18/11/2008) Publication: Art and marketing strategies for the promotion and dissemination of art "Art et marketing, stratégies de promotion et de diffusion de l'art", Rafael de Garay, editions Ars vivens, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36086-tit--Art-et-marketing-strat-gies-de-promotion -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 051 (19/11/2008) Residence: The Hungarian Multicultural Center (HMC), Budapest, Hungary. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36080-tit--The-Hungarian-Multicultural-Center-HMC- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 052 (19/11/2008) Meetings: Movies, interactivity and Society, International Symposium, 19-21 November 2008, European School top of the image and l'Espace Mendes-France, TAP, Theater et Auditorium of Poitiers, Poitiers, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36119-tit--Cin-ma-interactivit-et-soci-t- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 053 (19/11/2008) Various: Art [espace] public 2008, round of meetings and discussions of urban experiences, can now be listening online, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36121-tit-Divers-Art-espace-public-2008-cycle -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 054 (20/11/2008) Various: 3rd edition of the Book Prize Artcurial Contemporary Art in 2008, Artcurial, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36037-tit-Divers-3-me-dition-du-Prix-Artcurial-du -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 055 (20/11/2008) Publication: nota_de_prensa art.es nº 28, Madrid, Spain. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36082-tit--nota-de-prensa-art-es-n-28-Madrid- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 056 (20/11/2008) Publicatio : Book Prize Artcurial Contemporary Art, Artcurial, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36090-tit--Prix-Arctcurial-du-livre-d-art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 057 (20/11/2008) Meetings: Ways of Watching, Northeast Historic Film, 2009 Summer Symposium, 24-25 JULY 2009, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36108-tit--Ways-of-Watching-Northeast-Historic -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 058 (20/11/2008) Meetings: Ideas laid bare / Competing ideas : Rethinking the social and economic conditions of art?, Forum europeen de l'essai sur l'art, 20-23 November 2008, Institut national d'histoire de l'art, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36112-tit--Ideas-laid-bare-Competing-ideas- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 059 (21/11/2008) Exhibition: 13th edition of ST-ART: European Fair of Contemporary Art in Strasbourg, 21 to 24 November 2008, exhibition of Wacken, Strasbourg, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35975-tit--13-me-dition-de-ST-ART-la-foire -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 060 (21/11/2008) Publication: the review So Multiples N°2, Lille, France http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36083-tit--La-revue-So-Multiples-N-2-Lille- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 061 (22/11/2008) Meetings: The tree in art - Art in the tree Caves, cabins, lodges: places for the body, to see machines " L'arbre dans l'art - L'art dans l'arbre Grottes, cabanes, pavillons : lieux pour le corps, machines à voir ", on Saturday, 22 November 2008, mediatheque municipale de Sannois, Sannois, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36109-tit--L-arbre-dans-l-art-L-art-dans -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 062 (25/11/2008) Meetings: Filming the social field "Filmer le champ social", 2nd Wednesday of the month from 15h to 17h, http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36113-tit--Filmer-le-champ-social-2-me-mercredi -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 063 (26/11/2008) Meetings: Faced to gender "Face aux Genres", Museum of Picardie, Wednesday 26 November 2008, Amiens, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36111-tit--Face-aux-Genres-Mus-e-de-Picardie- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 064 (01/12/2008) Meeting: CITU > IN/OUT x.0 - establishment of public space connective au10-1st December 2008, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-36118-tit--CITU-IN-OUT-x-0-Espace-public-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 065 (02/12/2008) Residence: European Media Artists in Residence Exchange 2008, Bulgaria, United Kingdom, Germany, Netherlands. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35169-tit-R-sidence-European-Media-Artists-in -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news Direction de la publication Xavier Cahen, webdesign Loz pourinfos.org est une page d'informations diverses et variées sur l'art contemporain, entendez ici, l'art qui se fait aujourd?hui. Cette lettre d'informations est bi-mensuelle. Contact humain xavier.cahen at pourinfos.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 11:40:45 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:40:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sarvagyapeeth and terror In-Reply-To: <47e122a70811122148s48d86207p8eed5cc6b875393c@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70811122148s48d86207p8eed5cc6b875393c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990811122210r7d27b584m8f5b471031696df1@mail.gmail.com> The links work if you edit the URL. Just replace the '..\' before the 'pg' and hit the enter button. You'll see the page. Rgds, Partha .................... On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:18 AM, inder salim wrote: > thaanks dear javed for this forward > > day by day, the plot thickens, new actors join in, we need a aurthur > canon to provide us an unending twist in the tale, that was fantasy, > this is real, so more intense !!! > > i pressed their website,it indeed has a impressive page, but nothing > moves further, even its unique philosophy button. > > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Javed wrote: > > The website displays Sudhakar as a crusader > > 13 Nov 2008, 0200 hrs IST, Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui, TNN > > > > LUCKNOW: "To restore the age-old glory of Sharda Mandir in PoK. To > > make aware our countrymen about the dangers in Kashmir spreading in > > the whole > > country. To contribute to the struggle of displaced Hindus in their > > rehabilitation. > > > > Publication of rare manuscripts of Kashmir. To organise "Dharma > > Bachao- Desh Bachao Yatra aur Rashtra Raksha Yagya" .... reads the > > welcome message on the home page of the website > > (www.sarvagyapeeth.com) of Sharda Sarvagyapeeth of Swami Amritanand > > Dev Tirth Shankaracharya alias Sudhakar Dwivedi alias Dayanand Pandey > > — the Malegaon blast connection of Uttar Pradesh who was detained by > > the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) of the Mumbai Police. > > > > Investigators say that Amritanand is a self-proclaimed Shankaracharya > > and has no association with other establish peeths in India. > > > > The website was traced after Sudhakar himself provided the address to > > the interrogators after he was picked up from Kanpur and brought to > > Lucknow. Created supposedly with a copyright registration of 2007 the > > website has an impressive homepage but most of the Sarvagyapeeth > > literarature is photocopies of January 2007 edition of the opening > > pages of Sharda Sandesh — a quaterly bilingual newsletter from the > > Sarvagyapeeth. > > > > Sources associated with the probe said that Sudhakar had met all the > > Malegaon blast accused arrested so far by the ATS and was in regular > > touch with them. "His name figured in the interrogation of almost all > > the accused — be it the senior army officers or Sadhvi Pragya > > herself," admitted a senior officer of the ATS here on Wednesday > > night. Investigators were now trying to retract all the e-mails sent > > from and received by the two e-mail IDs of Sudhakar and transaction > > details of his account with a nationalised bank that was discovered > > during the initial stages of his interrogation. > > > > Sources said that after his initial stay at Kanpur, Sudhakar shifted > > to Varanasi from where he reached Jammu in 2005-06 where he floated > > the Sarvagyapeeth. Investigators believe that the genuine Peeth > > actually existed in Pak occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Sudhakar opened a > > Peeth in Kashmir on his own. "We are yet to establish any link between > > the PoK Peeth and the one launched by Sudhakar," said a senior officer > > associated with the probe. > > > > As per the website, the Sarvagyapeeth has its registered office at > > 248, Sector 1-A, Trikuta Nagar, Jammu Tavi 180012, J&K with phone > > numbers 9419190809 and 0191-2471031. > > > > While the mobile number was unapproachable, the landline number was > > attended by a male. When asked by TOI if it was the telelphone number > > of Sarvagyapeeth, a sleepy voice on the other side retorted: " Sonay > > do bhai ... yeh koi peeth veeth ka number nahin hai " (Please let me > > sleep. This number doesn;t belong to any peeth) before he hung up. The > > cellphone number (9419194506) provided against the camp office of the > > Peeth was also not contactable. The camp office address read at Maa > > Sharika Mandir, Village Anangpur, Faridabad (Harayana) with > > emailaddressesshardapeeth at gmail.com and > > sarvagyapeethkashmir at sancharnet.in. > > > > The most impressive part of the website is the picture gallery showing > > Swami Amritanand Dev Tirth Shankaracharya alias Sudhakar Dwivedi in > > conversation with some important personalities of the country > > including a former president of India, a film star and a bureaucrat > > apart from a stream of political personalities from across the > > country. > > > > Out of the six patrons of the Sarvagyapeeth, as mentioned in the > > website, at least four are Padamshri and one hails from Lucknow. The > > Sanatan Yatra page of the website also contains 21 pictures showing > > Sudhakar addressing students at a school and his followers. > > > > A separate page attributed to donations announces that all amounts > > given as donation are exempted from income tax under section 80G of > > the Income Tax Act 1961. > > > > The Sarvagyapeeth offers three categories of memberships including > > founder / life member at Rs 21,000, honourable/special life member for > > Rs 5,100 and life member for Rs 2,100. > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Website_displays_Sudhakar_as_a_crusader/articleshow/3706373.cms > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 11:54:33 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:54:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The insanity of religion Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811122224y6d254964u97dd105d42b90389@mail.gmail.com> http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=257 From rama.sangye at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 13:01:06 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:01:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] article Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811122331n66d1683cxc3290b7e1e0e4b8b@mail.gmail.com> "The Pimping of Black America: Why Much of the Corporate Media Supports Barack Obama", by Larry Pinkney See: http://cuckooscall.blogspot.com/2008/11/real-systemic-change.html From rama.sangye at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 13:08:03 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:08:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?_An_Artist_in_Exile_Tests_India=92?= =?windows-1252?q?s_Democratic_Ideals?= In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0811100301j6c1c892bl7900fcda5b59035@mail.gmail.com> References: <326850.97865.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6ade4a8f0811100203x230cd053kfb9ec889ec404925@mail.gmail.com> <6ade4a8f0811100203y540c88c3m46e9558912ab759d@mail.gmail.com> <1fd66c110811100225r7bdd195nd4fcc5e78618ee9a@mail.gmail.com> <6ade4a8f0811100301j6c1c892bl7900fcda5b59035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0811122338t78a8bda1kbf12dc0709fcf13f@mail.gmail.com> (this did no reach earlier, sent on 10 Nov) Thank you KK and Shivam. As there are a large number of cases against Mr Husain, which have the intention only of harassing him and depriving him of his democratic rights and equal citizenship, I think a petition could be filed in the Supreme Court of India appealing for the protection of Mr Husain's rights. I would hope that the Supreme Court would pass an order that would render all the legal cases against him inapplicable, or prevent any trouble to him - such as arrest or need to appear in courts - besides ordering suitable punishment to all those who attempt to harass him. I shall discuss this matter with my fellow members of the Kolkata International Foundation for Art, Literature & Culture, to see if KIFALC can make such a petition. I believe a group of citizens who cherish our democratic ideals and are well-wishers of Mr Husain can definitely be mobilised to make such a petition. The law may be an ass, but if Mr Husain saw the donkey as a symbol of non-violence (which, interestingly, the Bengali writer, Subimal Misra also does, e.g. in his story "Moydaney Takaar Gach"), then I have no doubt he would stand vindicated. Best V Ramaswamy From monica at sarai.net Thu Nov 13 13:17:51 2008 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:17:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About the list Message-ID: Dear All I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class monitor! The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall, infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I am a little ambivalent about. I request list members to be aware that making charges without substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some votaries. Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises from this process. best Monica List Admin Monica Narula Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.sarai.net From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 14:56:21 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:56:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73eb60090811130126n37a4f015g79f48d9d71022156@mail.gmail.com> To put in a layman's language - let us grin and bear it. Adityaraj, Pawan and others are part of the reality, we can't unsubscribe them. The only way to avoid them is to unsubscribe yourself from the list and go settle in the Himalayas. (avoid Kashmir though). Time to leave folks. Kirdar On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Monica Narula wrote: > Dear All > > I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an > intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class > monitor! > > The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to > be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall, > infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an > increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an > aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive > authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and > the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I > am a little ambivalent about. > > I request list members to be aware that making charges without > substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with > discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term > with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all > directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some > votaries. > > Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an > increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of > accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think > how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a > crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises > from this process. > > best > Monica > List Admin > > Monica Narula > Sarai-CSDS > 29 Rajpur Road > Delhi 110 054 > www.sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 16:03:20 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:33:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] say "Jai Maharashtra" Message-ID: <63928.21992.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Film on North Indian's struggle in Mumbai banned in Maharashtra 13 Nov 2008, 1031 hrs IST, Yogesh Naik & Bharati Dubey, TNN MUMBAI: The state government on Wednesday banned the Hindi film `Deshdrohi', saying it would create a divide between north Indians and Marathis. The low-budget movie by Bhojpuri film-maker Kamal Khan, who also plays the lead, is about a north Indian migrant's struggle in Mumbai. It was banned under Section 6 of the Bombay Cinema Regulation Act, 1963, which empowers the state or police to suspend screening - even if the film is cleared by the censor board - if they think it can create a law-and-order problem. Mumbai police commissioner Hasan Gafoor said, "We had found certain scenes in `Deshdrohi' objectionable and had informed the government about it.'' He confirmed on Wednesday night that he had received the ban order from the state government. After the weekly cabinet meeting on Wednesday, chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh said the ban should not be viewed as "moral policing''. The initial idea was to ask the producer-director to remove the controversial scenes, but finally, the cabinet decided to ban the film, he said. Additional chief secretary (home) Chitkala Zutshi told TOI that the film dwelt on issues which had created trouble between communities in the recent past. "The government felt it would inflame passions and emotions further, hence we decided to ban the film for 60 days.'' Last week, the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena had asked for a ban on the film after watching its promos on TV but after Akhilesh Chaubey, MNS leader Raj Thackeray's lawyer, watched the film at a special screening, he said there was "nothing objectionable'' in it. "The promos are misleading.'' Soon after the government's announcement that it would ban the film, MNS spokesperson Shirish Parkar demanded legal action against Kamal Khan, the producer-director of `Deshdrohi'. "The exhibition of this film should be stayed for some time. It should not be screened as long as the campaign to spread hatred between communities and Marathis and North Indians does not stop,'' Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee general secretary Sanjay Nirupam said. Mumbai Congress chief Kripashankar Singh said such films spreading hatred must be banned. In fact, they should not be made. He said that Marathi plays spreading hatred should also be banned. One such play is `Bhaiyya Haath Paay Pasari', which shows how a poor north Indian migrant comes to Mumbai and ends up buying the entire building in which he had rented a room. Producer Kamal Khan said on Wednesday that he would challenge the ban in the high court. "It's a story about an unemployed youth who is used by politicians and eventually becomes a criminal. Maybe that's what some politicians didn't like in my film.'' However, someone who has seen the film told this paper, "There are some derogatory remarks against north Indian and Maharashtrians which may create problems. Had the film not got so much publicity, it would've gone unnoticed.'' It was not easy for Khan to get censor clearance. The executive committee of the Mumbai board had given ten cuts and an `A' certificate to the film. But the producer got his film cleared from the appellate tribunal in Delhi with five cuts and a UA certificate. Vinayak Azad, regional officer of the Censor Board in Mumbai said, "We have certified the film for public exhibition but law and order is a state subject and the state can stop the exhibition of the film if it thinks it will create a law and order problem.'' Mahesh Bhatt said, "It's a shame that those who claim to be the crusaders of freedom have violated the rights of freedom of speech of the film-maker. They are no different from any repressive regime. You can't use the pretext of law and order to ban a film.'' http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Mah_bans_film_on_north_Indians_life/articleshow/3706463.cms From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 16:37:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:37:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?GB2312?B?Q2xpbWF0ZSBDaGFuZ2UgYW5kIGNpdmlsaXphdGlvbnOhrQ==?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70811130307j4d319402sb46cad1397951e2e@mail.gmail.com> http://rinoorajesh.blogspot.com/2008/10/climate-change-and-civilizations.html Climate Change and civilizations�� In my previous poston the topic of global warming and its impact on planet's climate, I had delved into the causes behind global warming and varying opinions of different authority figures. This time, I would like to trace the effects of climate change on the evolution of humanity. I came across an interesting article by Dr Nachiketa Das �C where he discusses the topic of climate change and its effect on river Ganges . He is of the opinion �C "*Global warming, now in 2008, is real, and upon us. How will global warming affect the rivers in India; will they all dry up? Can the holy Ganges, the river that has shaped and sustained Indian civilization through the ages, who we Indians revere as the life-giving mother, run dry! Many climate experts and environmentalists, in the last ten years, have been making dire predictions of the Ganges becoming seasonal. Some doomsayers have even gone to the extent of boldly predicting the river to be ephemeral by the year 2035, which is barely a generation away! Is it really possible that the Ganges will run dry by 2035! Is this calamity an inevitability that should be accepted as fait accompli, or is there anything we, the people of India, collectively can do to save the holy Mother Ganges from extinction*". The concerns are valid. The Ganges originates from Gangotri glacier, which is one of the largest valley glaciers located in western Himalayas. 30.2 km long and 0.5 to 2.5 km wide Gangotri lies recumbent at the altitudes between 4,120 and 7,000 m above sea level. The total area occupied by the glacier complex (in 2001) that feeds Ganges, is 260 square km, which contains 40 cubic km of ice (in 1999). During a 60 year period between 1936 and 1996, Gangotri has receded by as much as 1,147 m, 850 m of which happened during a 25 year period between 1971 and 1996. In a three year period between 1996 and 1999 Gangotri retreated by 76 m. When this result is contrasted with the 2,000 m retreat over the last 200 years, the significantly accelerated rate of retreat has become obvious. Also, Global warming does not mean uniform amount of warming at each and every place on the globe. Although vast majority of the places on this earth will become hotter due to global warming, however strange it may seem, certain parts will in fact become cooler. Why? Well, it has to with how the weather and heat transfer systems work on our planet. Unlike the frozen wastes of Mars or lead melting surface of Venus, our planet is blessed with a very complex, yet delicate ecosystem. The Gulf Stream is a vast oceanic current that carries warm waters from the tropics to the temperate regions of northern Europe and North America. This ocean current originates in the Gulf of Mexico, flows past the east coast of the USA and Newfoundland in Canada, and then crosses the Atlantic Ocean. It then branches into two, with the northern stream moving to northern Europe. The Gulf Stream is about 80 to 150 km wide and a 1,000 m deep river of sea that transports 1.4 petawatts (1 petawatt is 1,000 million megawatts) of heat, which is equivalent to almost 100 times the current energy demand of the entire world. Around Cape Hatteras on the coast of North Carolina in the US, the Gulf Stream transports water at the rate of 80 million cubic meter per second, and is much bigger than any river system of the world; in fact the combined release of all the waters from all the rivers flowing into the Atlantic is only 0.6 million cubic meter per second. The Gulf Stream has significant localized effects on the climate of the east coast of Florida and Massachusetts in the US; and the west coast of Britain, which is a good few degrees warmer than the east coast. The warming effect of the Gulf Stream is most dramatic in the western islands of Scotland, so much so that the small township of Plockton (latitude 57.33oN) that is located east of the Isle of Skye, has a mild climate that allows sub-tropical cabbage-palm-trees to grow. The local climate in Plockton in the absence of the Gulf Stream would be freezing cold as latitudinal it lies further north of Moscow (latitude 55.45oN) by almost two degrees. Due to global warming, there is every possibility that the Gulf Stream may change course or it may lose its strength. In fact in November 2004, it completely stopped for full ten days, and there are reports saying that in the last 50 years (since 1957) its deep return flow has weakened by as much as 30%. Any change in the characteristics of the Gulf Stream, would cause significant localized cooling in Scandinavia and Britain. At a time of global warming, the western islands of Scotland will experience substantial cooling. The effects on human population and civilization can be imagined. This, however, is the not the first time that climate change has affected humanity on such a scale. The river Sarasvati for example, is widely considered to have supported the Harappan culture. Movement and ultimate decline of the Harappan culture are often attributed to climate change and its ultimate effect on river Sarasvati. Some Rigvedic verses (6.61.2-13) indicate that the Sarasvati River originated in the hills or mountains (giri), where she "burst with her strong waves the ridges of the hills (giri)". It is a matter of interpretation whether this refers not merely to the Himalayan foothills like the present-day Sarasvati (Sarsuti) river. The Sarasvati is described as a river swollen (pinvam��n��) by other rivers (sindhubhih). Another reference to the Sarasvati is in the geographical enumeration of the rivers in the late Rigvedic Nadistuti sukta (10.75.5, this verse enumerates all important rivers from the Ganges in the east up to the Indus in the west in a strict geographical order), as "Ganga, Yamuna, Sarasvati, Shutudri", the Sarasvati is placed between the Yamuna and the Sutlej, consistent with the Ghaggar identification. It is clear, therefore, that even if she has unmistakably lost much of her former prominence, Sarasvati remains characterized as a river goddess throughout the Rigveda, being the home river of the Puru and later on, the Kuru tribe. While Sarasvati River might still be remembered, its influence on Indian history cannot be discounted. Nor can its decline be overlooked. However, climate change need not always be so bad for human culture. After all, our present day humans ascended to our current position in evolutionary terms due to ending of an ICE AGE. Sahara desert, the largest one on our planet, used to be a very lush and green place before the change in climate led to its present state and forced a lot of human tribes into the valley of the Nile, leading up to its fabulous civilization and myriad dynasties. Sustenance played a crucial role in the founding of Egyptian civilization. The Nile is an unending source of sustenance. The Nile made the land surrounding it extremely fertile when it flooded or was inundated annually. The Egyptians were able to cultivate wheat and crops around the Nile, providing food for the general population. Also, the Nile's water attracted game such as water buffalo; and after the Persians introduced them in the 7th century BC, camels. These animals could be killed for meat, or could be captured, tamed and used for ploughing �� or in the camels' case, travelling. Water was vital to both people and livestock. The Nile was also a convenient and efficient way of transportation for people and goods. The Nile played a major role in politics and social life. But at the end of the day, it was climate change which led to rise and fall of these civilizations��. So what are we worried about? It's just that we humans are much more numerous now and spread of more area of the planet than at any time in our history. So climate change this time, turns out to be very inconvenient indeed and because it might lead to decline of our current global civilization and ultimately bring misery to untold billions, that we are so concerned. We humans seem to be standing too much in the way of nature to be left unscathed by the fury that will be unleashed by the current spell climate change, arguably induced by our actions only�� From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Nov 13 19:26:16 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:26:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Monica, I am writing this with the hope that this sorry chapter about false allegations on the list is now lurching towards conclusion. But before we achieve the closure we all need, a few clarifications and recapitulations are in order, for the sake of the record. It is my belief that your response as list administrator is a philosophical one, and upholds what I think are the best traditions of the Reader List of standing for the freedom of speech even of those with whom one agrees least of all. I agree to withdraw my demand that Aditya Raj Kaul and Pawan Durani be asked to leave the list. However, the least that Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul can do, if they are to be truly deserving, in my view of the measured and considerate tone of the list administrator's response is to reciprocate by - - Offering an unconditional and unambiguous apology to all list members for seeking to mislead list members and making allegations without proof about people who write or say things that Kaul and Durani are in disagreement with being in the pay of 'terrorists' and 'foreign powers'. I think that a variety of different conflicting opinions and points of view is healthy. But a welcoming attitude to difference should not be taken to mean a licence to harm the reputations and persons of others. Most importantly, I believe it means never to say anything directly accusing another person of doing something if you do not have proof for it. From this time onwards, I suggest that we evolve a code of conduct that states 1) that no person, whosoever they may be should make any allegations on the personal conduct of another list member or any other third person, without offering proof for the same. Should this proof be found wanting, they should apologize. 2) that people voluntarily agree to refrain from making sexist and homophobic remarks or use racist language of any kind. Even the most strong arguments can be made without attacking each other on the basis of the name that people carry or the bodies they have and the desires that they own up to. I do not see this in any way as a restriction on anyone's freedom to express their thoughts, feelings, desires, interests, ideas or questions. I propose that unless a person actively dissents at this stage, we take it that these principles are agreeable to all. regards Shuddha On 13-Nov-08, at 1:17 PM, Monica Narula wrote: > Dear All > > I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an > intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class > monitor! > > The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to > be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall, > infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an > increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an > aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive > authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and > the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I > am a little ambivalent about. > > I request list members to be aware that making charges without > substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with > discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term > with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all > directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some > votaries. > > Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an > increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of > accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think > how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a > crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises > from this process. > > best > Monica > List Admin > > Monica Narula > Sarai-CSDS > 29 Rajpur Road > Delhi 110 054 > www.sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 20:56:14 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:26:14 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] About the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491C4716.1010401@gmail.com> Monica, It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat - because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have said recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in the cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that enterprise. After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt such debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my understanding) had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the only possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive measures like expulsion were not acceptable. I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a limit up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that freedom - for others - will become a casualty. The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today, but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we come back to the question of our list. Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya, Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason. The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that some army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of Sociology. "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ... The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion; virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main, though not exclusive, mass support." The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it. Tapas Monica Narula wrote: > Dear All > > I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an > intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class > monitor! > > The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to > be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall, > infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an > increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an > aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive > authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and > the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I > am a little ambivalent about. > > I request list members to be aware that making charges without > substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with > discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term > with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all > directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some > votaries. > > Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an > increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of > accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think > how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a > crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises > from this process. > > best > Monica > List Admin > > Monica Narula > Sarai-CSDS > 29 Rajpur Road > Delhi 110 054 > www.sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 20:57:22 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:27:22 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] request to Aditya and Pawan References: Message-ID: Hi all. Monika's mail responding to several requests to take off these two members for making allegations about a respected member without being able to substantiate them, is quite understandable. The member/s have been banned in the past and they have rejoined with a changed name. It is not easy, if not impossible, to ensure a permanent ban on people on a community hosted in the cyber space. Moreover, as some members in their postings have suggested, that even if Aditya's and Pawan's mails were not always palatable, they have helped us to know some new intelectual nooks and corners to peep in to. Aditya and Pawan, you have sensitize a lot of readers on the list about some issues which were on the backburner of the intellectual discourse on the list. Some members on the list recognize your importance, but you too should recognize the worth of the readers. The best way to win an argument, or to draw a serious attention to yor perspective, is to engage and not to offend your readers. You might have noticed from a sizable number of mails on this topic, you have offended a lot of members with a claim that you could not substantiate. In the heat of debate, we tend to make claims which have no basis. In order to maintain your credibility in future, you do retract and apologize for making a false claim. You will do a great service to this community if you apologize to Shuddha for the baseless allegations you made. An unconditional apology is not going to hurt you. Not apologizing will lead to the loss of any kind of credibility in your mails. I hope you will take this mail in good faith. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About the list > Dear Monica, > > I am writing this with the hope that this sorry chapter about false > allegations on the list is now lurching towards conclusion. But > before we achieve the closure we all need, a few clarifications and > recapitulations are in order, for the sake of the record. > > It is my belief that your response as list administrator is a > philosophical one, and upholds what I think are the best traditions > of the Reader List of standing for the freedom of speech even of > those with whom one agrees least of all. I agree to withdraw my > demand that Aditya Raj Kaul and Pawan Durani be asked to leave the list. > > However, the least that Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul can do, if > they are to be truly deserving, in my view of the measured and > considerate tone of the list administrator's response is to > reciprocate by - > > - Offering an unconditional and unambiguous apology to all list > members for seeking to mislead list members and making allegations > without proof about people who write or say things that Kaul and > Durani are in disagreement with being in the pay of 'terrorists' and > 'foreign powers'. > > I think that a variety of different conflicting opinions and points > of view is healthy. But a welcoming attitude to difference should not > be taken to mean a licence to harm the reputations and persons of > others. Most importantly, I believe it means never to say anything > directly accusing another person of doing something if you do not > have proof for it. > > From this time onwards, I suggest that we evolve a code of conduct > that states > > 1) that no person, whosoever they may be should make any allegations > on the personal conduct of another list member or any other third > person, without offering proof for the same. Should this proof be > found wanting, they should apologize. > > 2) that people voluntarily agree to refrain from making sexist and > homophobic remarks or use racist language of any kind. > > Even the most strong arguments can be made without attacking each > other on the basis of the name that people carry or the bodies they > have and the desires that they own up to. I do not see this in any > way as a restriction on anyone's freedom to express their thoughts, > feelings, desires, interests, ideas or questions. I propose that > unless a person actively dissents at this stage, we take it that > these principles are agreeable to all. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > On 13-Nov-08, at 1:17 PM, Monica Narula wrote: > >> Dear All >> >> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an >> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class >> monitor! >> >> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to >> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall, >> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an >> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an >> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive >> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and >> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I >> am a little ambivalent about. >> >> I request list members to be aware that making charges without >> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with >> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term >> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all >> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some >> votaries. >> >> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an >> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of >> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think >> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a >> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises >> from this process. >> >> best >> Monica >> List Admin >> >> Monica Narula >> Sarai-CSDS >> 29 Rajpur Road >> Delhi 110 054 >> www.sarai.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 21:00:40 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:30:40 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?BANGLADESH=3A_Shibir=92s_militancy?= =?windows-1252?q?=2C_do-or-die_challenge_for_all?= Message-ID: The Battle Over Culture Fundamentalist threats and secular response in Bangladesh sacw.net | 12 November 2008 1. Shibir's militancy: it's a do-or-die challenge for all (New Age) 2. Shibir threatens RU cultural activists with death (Daily Star) 3. Smash Palace (Naeem Mohaiemen) 4. Cultural activists need to unite (New Age) 5. More protests against removal of sculptures 6. Protests go on against removal of sculptures 7. The sculpture row (A.B.M.S. Zahur) 8. Lalon and Terror (Rahnuma Ahmed) 9. Marchers for sculpture stopped 10. Demolition of Lalon sculpture a conspiracy 3-day protests begin in Rajshahi; rally, human chain held in Nilphamari, Dinajpur 11. Bauls unite for culture (Iqbal Siddiquee) 12. The writing on the wall (Reaz Ahmad) 13. Notice has been given (New Age) 14. Anti-sculpture body warned against holding rally today (Daily Star) 15. Citizens to unite against sculpture removal (Daily Star) 16. All the king's men (Hana Shams Ahmed) 17. Reinstall baul sculptures (Daily Star) 18. Yet another walkover for bigots (New age) 19. Time to take a stand (Ashfaq Wares Khan) 20. Fury rages on against removal of sculpture (Daily Star) 21. Protests go on against removal of sculptures (Daily Star) 22. Baul Statue Protests Gather Momentum (Unheard Voices) 23. Put back Baul singers' statues near ZIA (Daily Star) 24. Govt shows where its sympathy lies, again (New Age) 25. Removal of sculptures sparks protests (Daily Star) 26. Sculptures near ZIA removed after protests (Daily Star) 27. Neo Talibans active in Bangladesh (Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury) 28. Controversies shroud Lalon and his songs (Ershad Kamol) 29. Bigots against baul monument (New Age, 16 October 2008) http://www.sacw.net/article156.html From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 21:03:33 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List In-Reply-To: <627409d50811101846y51a41776qa417b8356a069ed4@mail.gmail.com> References: <627409d50811101846y51a41776qa417b8356a069ed4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491C48CD.9000809@gmail.com> Ashima, You have offered a very interesting perspective, and I too have been inclined to think that way at times. But, as I have explained in the other message (addressed to Monica) I have posted a minute ago, the time has probably come to set these considerations aside. Just my two-bit. Tapas Ashima Sood wrote: > Kirdar, Danish, Inder Salim, Ravikant, Sabitha and other fellow list members, > > As a committed reader of reader-list and someone who regularly has her > email inbox flooded by Messrs Aditya Raj Kaul, Pawan Durani and > company, I hear you. But may I request we not dignify the tantrums of > this group with a ban? > > Recently, Mr Aditya Raj Kaul wrote (apologies to Shuddha for reproducing): > > "This is simply Dumbocracy rule here in SARAI. Shuddha being the > originator. His mails are filled with trash, he has bad 'history' and > 'Civics'." > > To me, all these gratuitous insults and juvenile coinages suggest this > writer is a brat - very spoiled, very petulant and very cornered . > From where I stand, it's clear that Shuddha, Shivam, Aarti, Prakash, > (and many others I could not name without going on a couple of > paragraphs) do a very fine (and patient) job of countering the > half-baked facts and opinions spewed by Mr. Aditya Kaul and Mr Durani. > Doesn't surprise me the only response left to these gentlemen is > sputtering and spitting. With their elegantly argued missives on > public record, seriously, are they defaming anyone more than > themselves? > > My concern is that if we do banish them to their side of the fence - > militarybharat.com or hindurashtra.com or kashmironlyforpandits.com - > they will continue without challenge. On this list, they are called > to account, and exposed for what they are. Over time, we can be sure > they lose a fraction more of the fence-sitter vote. > > Despite the bother, I suggest those of us not directly in the line of > fire make judicious use of the delete button. Even better, drown out > the bad talk with good talk. Or maybe think of this as participant > observation - we have enacted here a fascinating ethnography of thug > thinking. I would love to see a meditation on the sputter and spit > among the "stammer, mumble, sweat, scrawl, and tic" and other forms > of arrested speech and gesture that Raqs examined on the e-flux > journal (http://e-flux.com/journal/view/14) - only here it is the > interrogator in the uncomfortable position of being interrogated. > > At stake here are two visions of public space. We know what Mr. Aditya > Raj Kaul would do. He has defended the "protest" - read > bully-enforced censorship - against SAR Geelani. Let's not give him > the satisfaction of following in his path. > > Peace and deference to the moderator's decision, > > Ashima > > > From difusion at medialab-prado.es Thu Nov 13 21:23:33 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:53:33 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for projects> Interactivos?'09: Garage Science Message-ID: <491C4D7D.2030802@medialab-prado.es> ::please spread this call-thanks:: *MEDIALAB-PRADO* Plaza de las Letras C/ Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid (Spain) +34 913 692 303 www.medialab-prado.es * Interactivos?'09: Garage Science* Deadline for entries: *December* *14, 2008 12 midnight* (GMT+1) Call for collaborators: December 30, 2008 - January 25, 2009 Dates of the event: January 28 - February 14, 2009 at Medialab-Prado (Madrid, Spain) Open call for the submission of projects to be collaboratively developed within the framework of the *Interactivos?'09: Garage Science* international workshop and seminar. The aim is to design and build experimental and critical prototypes such as mechanical, digital, and biological devices, using open software and open hardware tools, as well as low cost materials. The medialab will then be transformed into a "domestic lab" where a maximum of 8 proposals will be developed with the aid of teachers, assistants and interested collaborators (call for collaborators: December 30). With the participation of the Critical Art Ensemble. Keywords: Garage science, critical design, bioart, mechanical devices, automatons, robots, impossible machines, Rube Goldberg's machines, pataphysic, energy, physical computing, free hardware, fabbing, recycling, biocomputing, biology, biohacking, biopunk, "license to fail". *Interactivos?'09* also includes a Seminar (January 28 and 29, 2009) with lectures by artists and experts where selected papers will be presented (see call for papers: www.medialab-prado.es/interactivos ). More information and access to the online submission form: http://medialab-prado.es/article/interactivos09_ciencia_de_garaje-_convocatoria_para_proyectos Contact: interactivos at medialab-prado.es Organizer: Medialab-Prado From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 21:54:03 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:24:03 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] My email address spoofed Message-ID: Hello, all! I have just discovered a number of emails in my spam box, apparently spent from my own address, with subjects like "Your home video compromised" and much worse. Clearly, my address is being spoofed by someone. Please delete those emails immediately. Apologies for the inconvenience. Tapas Ray From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 22:29:34 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:29:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About the list In-Reply-To: <491C4716.1010401@gmail.com> References: <491C4716.1010401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090811130859u73cbd2e6x5d2aaabff73270d9@mail.gmail.com> Dear all You folks really have so much time and patience to write philosophical explanations about your inability to take a bold decision, that I myself have a doubt that you are being "paid to write these". It was fun being on Sarai. May be I will join back after a few decades. Thanks for everything. Kirdar On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > Monica, > > It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan > and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat - > because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have said > recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this > whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in the > cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same > "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that > enterprise. > > After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in > hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of > these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no > interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt such > debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my understanding) > had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no > business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the only > possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive measures > like expulsion were not acceptable. > > I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy > and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting > elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that > very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a limit > up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that > freedom - for others - will become a casualty. > > The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today, > but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse > globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have > noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have > noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the > rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we come > back to the question of our list. > > Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya, > Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their > discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or > concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our > minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the > list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they > want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some > of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why > do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see > some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a > liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along > with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason. > > The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that > these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist creep > we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing > day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the > recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms > during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that some > army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us > will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am > quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of > Sociology. > > "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ... > The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and > actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion; > virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other > political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the > open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these > groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful > leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and > depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the > leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed > masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters > of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main, > though not exclusive, mass support." > > The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My > answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it. > > Tapas > > > > Monica Narula wrote: >> Dear All >> >> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an >> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class >> monitor! >> >> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to >> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall, >> infrastructure will remain half-built