From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 00:53:18 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:23:18 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash> and how about the cadres of the so-called believers. Are they used for nonviolent activities? If I may use the believer's language, do you think "marayada purushottam" Ram will accept this kind of huliganism demonstrated in University of Delhi by those who use him for their divisive and political purposes? One of the teachers in a university in MP was killed publicly by the same huligan "believers" and MP's ruling party BJP are doing their best to protect the assassin believer from law. Should Ram be proud of this? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Sadan Jha" Cc: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > Dear Sadan, > > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular "scholars" > with political connections for "educating the cadres for subversion of > democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in public life. > That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying jobs at > these two filling stations. > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to all > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have undermined > the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent workers, later > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in Nandigram or > Singur is well documented now. > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sadan Jha > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Dear All, >> Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it >> with you. >> This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History >> Department, D.U. >> sadan. >> >> >> H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department H-ASIA >> Frank Conlon to H-ASIA >> >> >> H-ASIA >> Feburary 25, 2008 >> >> Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department >> ************************************************************************ >> From: Frank Conlon >> >> Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts >> regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP >> (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized "student" >> movement of the Hindu right in India. Some of our readers will take >> exception to that >> description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel >> comfortable writing it. >> >> Like everything else, the story requires some context, and, >> remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a >> Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the pretense >> that it was built on the actual historical birthplace of the god Rama, >> Rama once again figures prominently in the story. Over the past >> months there has been a resurgance "Rama"publicity arising in part >> out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of >> India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels. >> This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this >> dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the seabed, >> known as "the Rama Setu" that has been credited in mythology to >> Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem. >> >> In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and >> hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever mix it >> up in the ring of public affairs. So, much has been written in the >> past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the >> preservation of the Rama legacy. >> >> Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate >> press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year. >> Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" by the >> Delhi University History Department--and attributed--erroneously--to >> Professor Upinder >> Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History. The >> fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime Minister >> Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with the association >> of her name with the protest. The "book" was in fact not a >> publication at all, but a >> collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent >> course on >> Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme. The packet >> included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled "Three Hundred >> Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", which has >> appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman edited by >> Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking >> collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative >> Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991). Of course, many >> readers of H-ASIA are >> familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's contributions to >> the study of the history and culture of India including his wonderful >> translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry. >> >> At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi >> shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of that was >> manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of >> devout Hindus" by the Delhi University History Department. >> >> An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may suffice >> to give a flavor of the campaign. >> >> From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html >> The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that >> Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore >> and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the >> students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced >> Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of Sita >> so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through under the >> convenient cover of a folklore! >> "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different versions >> of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious intention has >> become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition government]. >> Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, Shiksha Bharati and >> Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues. >> >> "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) second >> year course has included portions defaming and denigrating the >> characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and projecting the >> entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake." and >> it goes on to cite a >> groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be >> perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of >> course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister. >> >> On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued >> the following statement: >> >> DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI, >> IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008 >> >> 1. A number of groups have organised protest and have raised >> objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, >> titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on >> Translation". The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker (ed.) >> The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford University >> Press, 1999, pp. 131-60; [this was an expanded version of a piece >> that first >> appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a >> Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California >> Press, 1991]. The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi >> University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B. >> A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several Colleges from >> July 2006 onwards. >> 2. The sole purpose of this course is to create an awareness and >> understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient >> India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources. >> Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes >> readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil poets and >> poetry, ancient >> iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The >> essay is >> part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories, >> characters, versions.' It is accompanied by an excerpt from Iravati >> Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. Supplementary readings >> include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of >> Valmiki: an epic of >> ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English >> translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly >> introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana. >> >> 3. The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours, >> including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with >> impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of languages >> including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps without parallel. His >> credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive knowledge >> of ancient Indian literary traditions are incontestable. It is sad to >> see his name and work >> being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the article in >> question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and variety >> in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama within India >> and across the world. >> >> 4. The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the >> readings for it went through the same procedure as all other courses >> in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. The readings >> have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the >> other University courses, they are the product of a consultative >> process involving many members of the University community. The >> content and readings for this >> course were discussed extensively among Department members and College >> teachers, and were approved through the regular University procedures >> in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of >> Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which >> include >> teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest >> statutory body on academic matters in the University. >> >> 5. We would like to emphasize that there is no published >> compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any other >> member of the Department of History. However, it has come to our >> notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies of the >> individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain >> photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on >> which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any >> authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this collection of >> photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' compiled >> by her. There is in fact no book. >> >> 6. When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not essential >> that the course-designers, teachers, or students should agree with or >> defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and >> dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It may be >> pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to >> certain individuals should in no way be construed as mischievous or >> slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or attempting >> to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, religion, >> tradition, or community. >> >> 7. The aim of the course in question is to teach University >> students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to analyze a >> variety of source material academically, analytically, and without >> embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the course >> was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it is being >> taught. >> >> ------ >> On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that Mayawati, the >> Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be >> banned. >> (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under >> a headline: >> "PM daughter in Ramayan row" >> >> New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has asked the >> Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University history >> students that allegedly contains objectionable references to >> characters in the Ramayan. >> >> Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil >> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, protested >> in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text was part of a book >> compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh. >> >> Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has, >> however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her >> students. >> "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious >> article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which >> contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being linked to >> the text," she told The Telegraph. >> >> Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not >> yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was >> motivated by concerns over law and order in her state." >> >> The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General >> Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt >> the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was seeking >> a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the contents >> of a >> research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried >> students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in >> their exam. >> >> "If the article is taught, students will be expected to reproduce it >> in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE WHAT IS >> TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu students >> will be >> forced to write something they do not believe in," she said. >> >> The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor and the >> head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's essay >> from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely compiled a book >> with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been >> published but we have a copy," Sharma said." >> >> Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to >> generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American >> ploy for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those who may >> be offended by my editorial comment. FFC] >> >> To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a >> group of >> ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University History >> department and physically manhandled the head of the department. The >> following is reproduced as received including a note from the Head of >> Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from department >> students. It was forwarded by Professor Indrani Chatterjee. >> >> Dear Colleague, >> >> This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the >> Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some damage >> to the structure and gaining some mileage from it. They partly >> succeeded in their venture. No injuries to anybody except the glass >> doors has been caused. The other details you can see from the >> students letter which follows. >> >> Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI >> >> DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS! >> PUNISH THE CULPRITS! >> >> 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised >> mob of >> more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP >> activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the School of >> Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the Head of >> the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they wished >> to speak >> to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II, >> History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media >> was present. >> Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the department >> members, they began to ransack the department. Even without speaking >> or giving a chance to the people present there from the department to >> speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office of the >> head of the >> department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held him by >> his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable >> damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass panes, >> damaging books, office files and other objects in the office was done >> and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive >> police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned them >> of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It is clear >> that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating violence >> in the department and it was a planned action to create an atmosphere >> of terror. >> >> This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police personnel >> as well as the media. The media footage would clearly show all that >> happened in the office of the head of the Department of History on the >> 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not belonging to >> the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the >> Department of >> History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty >> members to change the curriculum of history which has been passed by >> the due legal process of the University through the use of force >> is a >> clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. Freedom >> of expression is a fundamental right of every individual and any >> encroachment on the same is >> not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are >> seriously threatened. >> >> This is an appeal from the students of history department to >> everyone in the University to raise their voice against this >> vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of >> expression . We appeal to all students, staff and teachers >> >> To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, Faculty >> of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008. >> >> Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or >> not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for >> critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this >> 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic department >> at Delhi University. >> >> As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which >> comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to >> send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan >> at Delhi University. The postal address >> for the head of the department is: >> Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri, >> Head, >> Department of History, >> Faculty of Social Science building, >> University of Delhi, >> Delhi-110007. >> >> I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend >> some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode >> offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our study >> of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research in Europe, >> America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian >> concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we >> frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the >> "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity >> politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob >> action are small--but there are far too many university >> administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who >> wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of ontroversy. >> In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not quite as exotic >> as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe. >> >> >> Frank >> >> Frank F. Conlon >> Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian >> Studies & Comparative Religion >> University of Washington >> Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA >> Co-editor, H-ASIA >> President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online >> Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online >> ****************************************************************** >> To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: >> >> >> >> -- >> Sadan Jha >> Assistant Professor, >> Centre for Social Studies. >> Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road. >> Surat. Gujarat. India. >> blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Mar 1 12:54:28 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:24:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash> Message-ID: Hi, simple fact is mazhab nahi sikhatha kisise bair karna, no faith teaches any believers to hate and indulge in violence.That exactly is the reason for the "leaders" to use the very faith or of no faith to encourage violence be it the communist faith in idealogies, or any faith of god. The issue here is when the discussion is about the channelising the youth energy for the societal good, why brand them as ABVP or NSUI or DYFI where all the followers have been invariably "used" by their masters for their gains ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:53 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Sadan Jha Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > and how about the cadres of the so-called believers. Are they used > for > nonviolent activities? If I may use the believer's language, do > you think > "marayada purushottam" Ram will accept this kind of huliganism > demonstrated > in University of Delhi by those who use him for their divisive and > political > purposes? > One of the teachers in a university in MP was killed publicly by > the same > huligan "believers" and MP's ruling party BJP are doing their best > to > protect the assassin believer from law. Should Ram be proud of this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Sadan Jha" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:32 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular > "scholars" > > with political connections for "educating the cadres for > subversion of > > democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in > public life. > > That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying > jobs at > > these two filling stations. > > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to > all > > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have > undermined > > the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent > workers, later > > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in > Nandigram or > > Singur is well documented now. > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sadan Jha > > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > >> Dear All, > >> Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it > >> with you. > >> This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History > >> Department, D.U. > >> sadan. > >> > >> > >> H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department > H-ASIA > >> Frank Conlon to H-ASIA > >> > >> > >> H-ASIA > >> Feburary 25, 2008 > >> > >> Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department > >> > ************************************************************************>> From: Frank Conlon > >> > >> Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts > >> regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP > >> (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized > "student">> movement of the Hindu right in India. Some of our > readers will take > >> exception to that > >> description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel > >> comfortable writing it. > >> > >> Like everything else, the story requires some context, and, > >> remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a > >> Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the > pretense>> that it was built on the actual historical birthplace > of the god Rama, > >> Rama once again figures prominently in the story. Over the past > >> months there has been a resurgance "Rama"publicity arising in part > >> out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of > >> India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels. > >> This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this > >> dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the > seabed,>> known as "the Rama Setu" that has been credited in > mythology to > >> Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem. > >> > >> In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and > >> hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever > mix it > >> up in the ring of public affairs. So, much has been written in the > >> past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the > >> preservation of the Rama legacy. > >> > >> Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate > >> press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year. > >> Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" > by the > >> Delhi University History Department--and attributed-- > erroneously--to > >> Professor Upinder > >> Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History. The > >> fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime > Minister>> Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with > the association > >> of her name with the protest. The "book" was in fact not a > >> publication at all, but a > >> collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent > >> course on > >> Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme. The > packet>> included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled > "Three Hundred > >> Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", > which has > >> appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman > edited by > >> Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking > >> collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative > >> Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991). Of > course, many > >> readers of H-ASIA are > >> familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's > contributions to > >> the study of the history and culture of India including his > wonderful>> translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry. > >> > >> At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi > >> shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of > that was > >> manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of > >> devout Hindus" by the Delhi University History Department. > >> > >> An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may > suffice>> to give a flavor of the campaign. > >> > >> From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html > >> The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that > >> Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore > >> and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the > >> students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced > >> Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of > Sita>> so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all > through under the > >> convenient cover of a folklore! > >> "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different > versions>> of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious > intention has > >> become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition > government].>> Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, > Shiksha Bharati and > >> Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues. > >> > >> "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) > second>> year course has included portions defaming and > denigrating the > >> characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and > projecting the > >> entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake." > and > >> it goes on to cite a > >> groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be > >> perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of > >> course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister. > >> > >> On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued > >> the following statement: > >> > >> DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI, > >> IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008 > >> > >> 1. A number of groups have organised protest and have raised > >> objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, > >> titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three > Thoughts on > >> Translation". The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker > (ed.)>> The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford > University>> Press, 1999, pp. 131-60; [this was an expanded > version of a piece > >> that first > >> appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity > of a > >> Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California > >> Press, 1991]. The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi > >> University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B. > >> A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several > Colleges from > >> July 2006 onwards. > >> 2. The sole purpose of this course is to create an > awareness and > >> understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient > >> India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources. > >> Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes > >> readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil > poets and > >> poetry, ancient > >> iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The > >> essay is > >> part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories, > >> characters, versions.' It is accompanied by an excerpt from > Iravati>> Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. > Supplementary readings > >> include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of > >> Valmiki: an epic of > >> ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English > >> translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly > >> introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana. > >> > >> 3. The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours, > >> including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with > >> impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of > languages>> including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps > without parallel. His > >> credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive > knowledge>> of ancient Indian literary traditions are > incontestable. It is sad to > >> see his name and work > >> being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the > article in > >> question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and > variety>> in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama > within India > >> and across the world. > >> > >> 4. The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the > >> readings for it went through the same procedure as all other > courses>> in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. > The readings > >> have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the > >> other University courses, they are the product of a consultative > >> process involving many members of the University community. The > >> content and readings for this > >> course were discussed extensively among Department members and > College>> teachers, and were approved through the regular > University procedures > >> in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of > >> Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which > >> include > >> teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest > >> statutory body on academic matters in the University. > >> > >> 5. We would like to emphasize that there is no published > >> compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any > other>> member of the Department of History. However, it has come > to our > >> notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies > of the > >> individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain > >> photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on > >> which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any > >> authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this > collection of > >> photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' > compiled>> by her. There is in fact no book. > >> > >> 6. When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not > essential>> that the course-designers, teachers, or students > should agree with or > >> defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and > >> dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It > may be > >> pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to > >> certain individuals should in no way be construed as > mischievous or > >> slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or > attempting>> to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, > religion,>> tradition, or community. > >> > >> 7. The aim of the course in question is to teach University > >> students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to > analyze a > >> variety of source material academically, analytically, and without > >> embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the > course>> was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it > is being > >> taught. > >> > >> ------ > >> On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that > Mayawati, the > >> Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be > >> banned. > >> > (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under > >> a headline: > >> "PM daughter in Ramayan row" > >> > >> New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has > asked the > >> Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University > history>> students that allegedly contains objectionable > references to > >> characters in the Ramayan. > >> > >> Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil > >> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, > protested>> in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text > was part of a book > >> compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh. > >> > >> Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has, > >> however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her > >> students. > >> "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious > >> article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which > >> contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being > linked to > >> the text," she told The Telegraph. > >> > >> Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not > >> yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was > >> motivated by concerns over law and order in her state." > >> > >> The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General > >> Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt > >> the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was > seeking>> a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the > contents>> of a > >> research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried > >> students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in > >> their exam. > >> > >> "If the article is taught, students will be expected to > reproduce it > >> in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE > WHAT IS > >> TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu > students>> will be > >> forced to write something they do not believe in," she said. > >> > >> The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor > and the > >> head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's > essay>> from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely > compiled a book > >> with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been > >> published but we have a copy," Sharma said." > >> > >> Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to > >> generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American > >> ploy for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those > who may > >> be offended by my editorial comment. FFC] > >> > >> To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a > >> group of > >> ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University > History>> department and physically manhandled the head of the > department. The > >> following is reproduced as received including a note from the > Head of > >> Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from > department>> students. It was forwarded by Professor Indrani > Chatterjee.>> > >> Dear Colleague, > >> > >> This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the > >> Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some > damage>> to the structure and gaining some mileage from it. They > partly>> succeeded in their venture. No injuries to anybody > except the glass > >> doors has been caused. The other details you can see from the > >> students letter which follows. > >> > >> Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI > >> > >> DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS! > >> PUNISH THE CULPRITS! > >> > >> 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised > >> mob of > >> more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP > >> activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the > School of > >> Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the > Head of > >> the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they > wished>> to speak > >> to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II, > >> History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media > >> was present. > >> Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the department > >> members, they began to ransack the department. Even without > speaking>> or giving a chance to the people present there from the > department to > >> speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office > of the > >> head of the > >> department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held > him by > >> his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable > >> damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass > panes,>> damaging books, office files and other objects in the > office was done > >> and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive > >> police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned > them>> of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It > is clear > >> that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating > violence>> in the department and it was a planned action to create > an atmosphere > >> of terror. > >> > >> This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police > personnel>> as well as the media. The media footage would clearly > show all that > >> happened in the office of the head of the Department of History > on the > >> 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not > belonging to > >> the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the > >> Department of > >> History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty > >> members to change the curriculum of history which has been > passed by > >> the due legal process of the University through the use of force > >> is a > >> clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. > Freedom>> of expression is a fundamental right of every individual > and any > >> encroachment on the same is > >> not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are > >> seriously threatened. > >> > >> This is an appeal from the students of history department to > >> everyone in the University to raise their voice against this > >> vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of > >> expression . We appeal to all students, staff and teachers > >> > >> To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, > Faculty>> of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008. > >> > >> Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or > >> not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for > >> critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this > >> 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic > department>> at Delhi University. > >> > >> As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which > >> comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to > >> send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan > >> at Delhi University. The postal > address>> for the head of the department is: > >> Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri, > >> Head, > >> Department of History, > >> Faculty of Social Science building, > >> University of Delhi, > >> Delhi-110007. > >> > >> I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend > >> some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode > >> offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our > study>> of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research > in Europe, > >> America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian > >> concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we > >> frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the > >> "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity > >> politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob > >> action are small--but there are far too many university > >> administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who > >> wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of > ontroversy.>> In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not > quite as exotic > >> as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe. > >> > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> Frank F. Conlon > >> Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian > >> Studies & Comparative Religion > >> University of Washington > >> Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA > >> Co-editor, H-ASIA > >> President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online > >> Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online > >> ****************************************************************** > >> To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sadan Jha > >> Assistant Professor, > >> Centre for Social Studies. > >> Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road. > >> Surat. Gujarat. India. > >> blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 13:02:10 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:02:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <012601c87b08$90ab9d60$4728ab0a@taraprakash> Message-ID: <32144e990802292332v63013a5fp98bc465a6d6da760@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, The debate here is about freedom of speech and religion. What the ABVP goons are doing is enforcing a point of view about religion without even knowing what they are talking about. Sure, we can go into the use of goons by political parties, and a host of other issues, but those are all besides the point of this debate. Rgds, Partha ............................... On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 12:54 PM, wrote: > Hi, > simple fact is mazhab nahi sikhatha kisise bair karna, no faith teaches > any believers to hate and indulge in violence.That exactly is the reason > for the "leaders" to use the very faith or of no faith to encourage violence > be it the communist faith in idealogies, or any faith of god. > The issue here is when the discussion is about the channelising the youth > energy for the societal good, why brand them as ABVP or NSUI or DYFI where > all the followers have been invariably "used" by their masters for their > gains ? > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TaraPrakash > Date: Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:53 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Sadan Jha > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > and how about the cadres of the so-called believers. Are they used > > for > > nonviolent activities? If I may use the believer's language, do > > you think > > "marayada purushottam" Ram will accept this kind of huliganism > > demonstrated > > in University of Delhi by those who use him for their divisive and > > political > > purposes? > > One of the teachers in a university in MP was killed publicly by > > the same > > huligan "believers" and MP's ruling party BJP are doing their best > > to > > protect the assassin believer from law. Should Ram be proud of this? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "Sadan Jha" > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > > > > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular > > "scholars" > > > with political connections for "educating the cadres for > > subversion of > > > democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in > > public life. > > > That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying > > jobs at > > > these two filling stations. > > > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to > > all > > > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have > > undermined > > > the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent > > workers, later > > > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in > > Nandigram or > > > Singur is well documented now. > > > Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Sadan Jha > > > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > >> Dear All, > > >> Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it > > >> with you. > > >> This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History > > >> Department, D.U. > > >> sadan. > > >> > > >> > > >> H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department > > H-ASIA > > >> Frank Conlon to H-ASIA > > >> > > >> > > >> H-ASIA > > >> Feburary 25, 2008 > > >> > > >> Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department > > >> > > > ************************************************************************>> > From: Frank Conlon > > >> > > >> Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts > > >> regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP > > >> (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized > > "student">> movement of the Hindu right in India. Some of our > > readers will take > > >> exception to that > > >> description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel > > >> comfortable writing it. > > >> > > >> Like everything else, the story requires some context, and, > > >> remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a > > >> Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the > > pretense>> that it was built on the actual historical birthplace > > of the god Rama, > > >> Rama once again figures prominently in the story. Over the past > > >> months there has been a resurgance "Rama"publicity arising in part > > >> out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of > > >> India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels. > > >> This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this > > >> dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the > > seabed,>> known as "the Rama Setu" that has been credited in > > mythology to > > >> Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem. > > >> > > >> In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and > > >> hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever > > mix it > > >> up in the ring of public affairs. So, much has been written in the > > >> past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the > > >> preservation of the Rama legacy. > > >> > > >> Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate > > >> press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year. > > >> Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" > > by the > > >> Delhi University History Department--and attributed-- > > erroneously--to > > >> Professor Upinder > > >> Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History. The > > >> fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime > > Minister>> Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with > > the association > > >> of her name with the protest. The "book" was in fact not a > > >> publication at all, but a > > >> collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent > > >> course on > > >> Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme. The > > packet>> included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled > > "Three Hundred > > >> Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", > > which has > > >> appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman > > edited by > > >> Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking > > >> collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative > > >> Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991). Of > > course, many > > >> readers of H-ASIA are > > >> familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's > > contributions to > > >> the study of the history and culture of India including his > > wonderful>> translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry. > > >> > > >> At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi > > >> shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of > > that was > > >> manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of > > >> devout Hindus" by the Delhi University History Department. > > >> > > >> An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may > > suffice>> to give a flavor of the campaign. > > >> > > >> From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html > > >> The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that > > >> Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore > > >> and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the > > >> students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced > > >> Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of > > Sita>> so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all > > through under the > > >> convenient cover of a folklore! > > >> "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different > > versions>> of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious > > intention has > > >> become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition > > government].>> Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, > > Shiksha Bharati and > > >> Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues. > > >> > > >> "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) > > second>> year course has included portions defaming and > > denigrating the > > >> characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and > > projecting the > > >> entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake." > > and > > >> it goes on to cite a > > >> groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be > > >> perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of > > >> course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister. > > >> > > >> On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued > > >> the following statement: > > >> > > >> DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI, > > >> IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008 > > >> > > >> 1. A number of groups have organised protest and have raised > > >> objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, > > >> titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three > > Thoughts on > > >> Translation". The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker > > (ed.)>> The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford > > University>> Press, 1999, pp. 131-60; [this was an expanded > > version of a piece > > >> that first > > >> appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity > > of a > > >> Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California > > >> Press, 1991]. The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi > > >> University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B. > > >> A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several > > Colleges from > > >> July 2006 onwards. > > >> 2. The sole purpose of this course is to create an > > awareness and > > >> understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient > > >> India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources. > > >> Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes > > >> readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil > > poets and > > >> poetry, ancient > > >> iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The > > >> essay is > > >> part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories, > > >> characters, versions.' It is accompanied by an excerpt from > > Iravati>> Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. > > Supplementary readings > > >> include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of > > >> Valmiki: an epic of > > >> ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English > > >> translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly > > >> introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana. > > >> > > >> 3. The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours, > > >> including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with > > >> impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of > > languages>> including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps > > without parallel. His > > >> credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive > > knowledge>> of ancient Indian literary traditions are > > incontestable. It is sad to > > >> see his name and work > > >> being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the > > article in > > >> question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and > > variety>> in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama > > within India > > >> and across the world. > > >> > > >> 4. The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the > > >> readings for it went through the same procedure as all other > > courses>> in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. > > The readings > > >> have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the > > >> other University courses, they are the product of a consultative > > >> process involving many members of the University community. The > > >> content and readings for this > > >> course were discussed extensively among Department members and > > College>> teachers, and were approved through the regular > > University procedures > > >> in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of > > >> Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which > > >> include > > >> teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest > > >> statutory body on academic matters in the University. > > >> > > >> 5. We would like to emphasize that there is no published > > >> compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any > > other>> member of the Department of History. However, it has come > > to our > > >> notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies > > of the > > >> individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain > > >> photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on > > >> which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any > > >> authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this > > collection of > > >> photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' > > compiled>> by her. There is in fact no book. > > >> > > >> 6. When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not > > essential>> that the course-designers, teachers, or students > > should agree with or > > >> defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and > > >> dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It > > may be > > >> pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to > > >> certain individuals should in no way be construed as > > mischievous or > > >> slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or > > attempting>> to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, > > religion,>> tradition, or community. > > >> > > >> 7. The aim of the course in question is to teach University > > >> students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to > > analyze a > > >> variety of source material academically, analytically, and without > > >> embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the > > course>> was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it > > is being > > >> taught. > > >> > > >> ------ > > >> On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that > > Mayawati, the > > >> Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be > > >> banned. > > >> > > ( > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under > > >> a headline: > > >> "PM daughter in Ramayan row" > > >> > > >> New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has > > asked the > > >> Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University > > history>> students that allegedly contains objectionable > > references to > > >> characters in the Ramayan. > > >> > > >> Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil > > >> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, > > protested>> in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text > > was part of a book > > >> compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh. > > >> > > >> Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has, > > >> however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her > > >> students. > > >> "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious > > >> article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which > > >> contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being > > linked to > > >> the text," she told The Telegraph. > > >> > > >> Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not > > >> yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was > > >> motivated by concerns over law and order in her state." > > >> > > >> The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General > > >> Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt > > >> the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was > > seeking>> a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the > > contents>> of a > > >> research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried > > >> students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in > > >> their exam. > > >> > > >> "If the article is taught, students will be expected to > > reproduce it > > >> in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE > > WHAT IS > > >> TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu > > students>> will be > > >> forced to write something they do not believe in," she said. > > >> > > >> The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor > > and the > > >> head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's > > essay>> from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely > > compiled a book > > >> with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been > > >> published but we have a copy," Sharma said." > > >> > > >> Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to > > >> generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American > > >> ploy for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those > > who may > > >> be offended by my editorial comment. FFC] > > >> > > >> To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a > > >> group of > > >> ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University > > History>> department and physically manhandled the head of the > > department. The > > >> following is reproduced as received including a note from the > > Head of > > >> Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from > > department>> students. It was forwarded by Professor Indrani > > Chatterjee.>> > > >> Dear Colleague, > > >> > > >> This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the > > >> Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some > > damage>> to the structure and gaining some mileage from it. They > > partly>> succeeded in their venture. No injuries to anybody > > except the glass > > >> doors has been caused. The other details you can see from the > > >> students letter which follows. > > >> > > >> Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI > > >> > > >> DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS! > > >> PUNISH THE CULPRITS! > > >> > > >> 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised > > >> mob of > > >> more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP > > >> activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the > > School of > > >> Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the > > Head of > > >> the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they > > wished>> to speak > > >> to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II, > > >> History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media > > >> was present. > > >> Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the department > > >> members, they began to ransack the department. Even without > > speaking>> or giving a chance to the people present there from the > > department to > > >> speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office > > of the > > >> head of the > > >> department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held > > him by > > >> his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable > > >> damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass > > panes,>> damaging books, office files and other objects in the > > office was done > > >> and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive > > >> police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned > > them>> of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It > > is clear > > >> that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating > > violence>> in the department and it was a planned action to create > > an atmosphere > > >> of terror. > > >> > > >> This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police > > personnel>> as well as the media. The media footage would clearly > > show all that > > >> happened in the office of the head of the Department of History > > on the > > >> 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not > > belonging to > > >> the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the > > >> Department of > > >> History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty > > >> members to change the curriculum of history which has been > > passed by > > >> the due legal process of the University through the use of force > > >> is a > > >> clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. > > Freedom>> of expression is a fundamental right of every individual > > and any > > >> encroachment on the same is > > >> not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are > > >> seriously threatened. > > >> > > >> This is an appeal from the students of history department to > > >> everyone in the University to raise their voice against this > > >> vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of > > >> expression . We appeal to all students, staff and teachers > > >> > > >> To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, > > Faculty>> of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008. > > >> > > >> Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or > > >> not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for > > >> critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this > > >> 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic > > department>> at Delhi University. > > >> > > >> As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which > > >> comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to > > >> send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan > > >> at Delhi University. The postal > > address>> for the head of the department is: > > >> Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri, > > >> Head, > > >> Department of History, > > >> Faculty of Social Science building, > > >> University of Delhi, > > >> Delhi-110007. > > >> > > >> I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend > > >> some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode > > >> offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our > > study>> of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research > > in Europe, > > >> America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian > > >> concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we > > >> frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the > > >> "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity > > >> politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob > > >> action are small--but there are far too many university > > >> administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who > > >> wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of > > ontroversy.>> In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not > > quite as exotic > > >> as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe. > > >> > > >> > > >> Frank > > >> > > >> Frank F. Conlon > > >> Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian > > >> Studies & Comparative Religion > > >> University of Washington > > >> Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA > > >> Co-editor, H-ASIA > > >> President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online > > >> Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online > > >> ****************************************************************** > > >> To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Sadan Jha > > >> Assistant Professor, > > >> Centre for Social Studies. > > >> Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road. > > >> Surat. Gujarat. India. > > >> blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> list > > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 13:55:02 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:55:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990802290053q33288181m893adf4dd22e8234@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990802290315s1e7d2017q134a05986ac3ef95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803010025v368beb1v4d0cdece72f4c87f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radikarajen, As things are today, a loud voice shouting is being accepted as the view of the majority, and would have been even in the disgraceful ABVP episode(s) had others not raised their voice back and made it abundantly obvious that a) the ABVP protestors had absolutely no clue what the issue was and that b) they do *not *have a following of their absurd concept of moral policing. As adults, we have a mind, and a right to believe what we want to without loud voices shouting in our ear and telling us what to do. It is completely my personal choice whether or not I wish to buy a Hussain painting or not (not that I could begin to afford them). As an artist, he is completely free to depict a God or Goddesses as he wants. I mean, next the jockey club may want to lodge cases against him for the way he has drawn horses!! That is so absurd... I for one refuse to believe that the value of a God or a Goddess or our faith in them can be affected by the way someone paints / draws them. Or will we now take up the axe against the artistes who create icons of God for Durga and Kali puja and leave them undressed and unadorned while they are readying them for the Puja. Or should we take action against street vendors who put posters of Gods and Goddesses on the streetside to sell as they get dirty!! Wouldn't we be far better off looking at something more constructive like education or infrastructure or a host of other areas that this country needs help (other than from the bumbling and uninformed moral policing of the ABVP, that is). Rgds, Partha ............................................ On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > Hi, as the things today are, freedom of speech for an individual who lives > in society has rights of speech, but can they be absolute rights over the > societal rights, is the big debating issue. No doubt freedom of speech of an > individual is not absolute and is to some extent the individual has to use > moderation in his/her expression to be sensible about this right to express > what is considered as against the societal rights. > Otherwise the issue of M F Hussain painting his prophet and earning > crores for that would not be an issue as he chose to earn crores by painting > some one elses' idols for his gains. Same is the issue with that cartoonist > in danish cartoons, he had no courage to cartoon his christ but chose some > one else. Taslima is that way more gutsy, as she focusses on ills in her > commune and society but still is hounded by her own faith loyalists who > term themselves as staunch believers. ? > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Friday, February 29, 2008 4:45 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > Dear Radhikarajen, > > > > The debate here is about freedom of speech and religion. What the > > ABVP goons > > are doing is enforcing a point of view about religion without even > > knowingwhat they are talking about. > > > > Sure, we can go into the use of goons by political parties, and a > > host of > > other issues, but those are all besides the point of this debate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ............................... > > > > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 4:08 PM, wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha, > > > > > > isn't it true that every political party has students wing, > > every party > > > uses them to train up as goons, whereas the need of the society > > is to > > > channelise their energies in to productive societal use, why > > this singling > > > out of saffron goons when we have goons in every party as seen > > just now the > > > "farmers" mobilised for the budget approval, by goons for the > > goons. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > > Date: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:23 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Dear Radhikarajen, > > > > > > > > As an art student, learnt of the 'renaissance movement' in Europe > > > > when after > > > > decades of being kept in strict check by the Papal Church, > > > > artistes and > > > > people from different walks of life refused to swallow what was > > > > forced upon > > > > them in terms of belief. > > > > > > > > And I do hope that this madness of enforcing 'belief' stops soon > > > > and is > > > > replaced with a modern renaissance movement. Todays' paper also > > > > contains an > > > > incident where the ABVP goofed badly without knowing their > > facts - > > > > whichunfortunately seems to be the rule with ABVP instead of being > > > > an exception! > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .............................. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:02 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > > > > > > > > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular > > > > > "scholars" with political connections for "educating the > > cadres for > > > > > subversion of democratic India, living examples are Yechury and > > > > Karats in > > > > > public life. That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards > > > > in to > > > > > paying jobs at these two filling stations. > > > > > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but > > respect to all > > > > > faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have > > > > undermined the > > > > > faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent > > workers, later > > > > > politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in > > > > Nandigram or > > > > > Singur is well documented now. > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Sadan Jha > > > > > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to > > share it > > > > > > with you. > > > > > > This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of > > History> > > > Department, D.U. > > > > > > sadan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department > > > > H-ASIA > > > > > > Frank Conlon to H-ASIA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H-ASIA > > > > > > Feburary 25, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History > > Department> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************************> > > > > From: Frank Conlon > > > > > > > > > > > > Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded > > some posts > > > > > > regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP- > > linked ABVP > > > > > > (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized > > > > "student"> > movement of the Hindu right in India. Some of our > > > > readers will take > > > > > > exception to that > > > > > > description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel > > > > > > comfortable writing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like everything else, the story requires some context, and, > > > > > > remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a > > > > > > Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the > > > > pretense> > that it was built on the actual historical birthplace > > > > of the god Rama, > > > > > > Rama once again figures prominently in the story. Over > > the past > > > > > > months there has been a resurgance "Rama"publicity > > arising in > > > > part> > out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the > > > > southern tip of > > > > > > India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal > > > > vessels.> > This was seized upon by interested parties who argued > > > > that this > > > > > > dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the > > > > seabed,> > known as "the Rama Setu" that has been credited in > > > > mythology to > > > > > > Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem. > > > > > > > > > > > > In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and > > > > > > hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever > > > > mix it > > > > > > up in the ring of public affairs. So, much has been written > > > > in the > > > > > > past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama > > and the > > > > > > preservation of the Rama legacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and > > > > generate> > press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi > > > > earlier this year. > > > > > > Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" > > > > "published" by the > > > > > > Delhi University History Department--and attributed-- > > > > erroneously--to > > > > > > Professor Upinder > > > > > > Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian > > History. The > > > > > > fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime > > > > Minister> > Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with > > > > the association > > > > > > of her name with the protest. The "book" was in fact not a > > > > > > publication at all, but a > > > > > > collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent > > > > > > course on > > > > > > Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme. The > > > > packet> > included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled > > > > "Three Hundred > > > > > > Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", > > > > which has > > > > > > appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman > > > > edited by > > > > > > Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path- > > breaking> > > > collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The > > Diversity of a Narrative > > > > > > Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991). Of > > > > course, many > > > > > > readers of H-ASIA are > > > > > > familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's > > > > contributions to > > > > > > the study of the history and culture of India including his > > > > wonderful> > translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in > > a Delhi > > > > > > shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of > > > > that was > > > > > > manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of > > feelings of > > > > > > devout Hindus" by the Delhi University History Department. > > > > > > > > > > > > An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may > > > > suffice> > to give a flavor of the campaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html > > > > > > The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that > > > > > > Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal > > > > folklore> > and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche > > > > before the > > > > > > students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both > > seduced> > > > Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the > > character> > of Sita > > > > > > so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through > > > > under the > > > > > > convenient cover of a folklore! > > > > > > "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different > > > > versions> > of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious > > > > intention has > > > > > > become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition > > > > government].> > Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, > > > > Shiksha Bharati and > > > > > > Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues. > > > > > > > > > > > > "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) > > > > second> > year course has included portions defaming and > > > > denigrating the > > > > > > characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and > > > > projecting the > > > > > > entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake." > > > > and > > > > > > it goes on to cite a > > > > > > groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies > > could be > > > > > > perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, > > and, of > > > > > > course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister. > > > > > > > > > > > > On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department > > > > issued> > the following statement: > > > > > > > > > > > > DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI, > > > > > > IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. A number of groups have organised protest and have > > raised> > > > objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. > > K. Ramanujan, > > > > > > titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three > > > > Thoughts on > > > > > > Translation". The essay had been published in Vinay > > > > Dharwadker (ed.) > > > > > > The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford > > > > University> > Press, 1999, pp. 131-60; [this was an expanded > > > > version of a piece > > > > > > that first > > > > > > appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity > > > > of a > > > > > > Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of > > > > California> > Press, 1991]. The said essay is one of he readings > > > > for the Delhi > > > > > > University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in > > the B. > > > > > > A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several > > > > Colleges from > > > > > > July 2006 onwards. > > > > > > 2. The sole purpose of this course is to create an > > > > awareness and > > > > > > understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of > > ancient> > > > India among students, and to acquaint them with > > original sources. > > > > > > Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course > > > > includes> > readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient > > > > Tamil poets and > > > > > > poetry, ancient > > > > > > iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The > > > > > > essay is > > > > > > part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories, > > > > > > characters, versions.' It is accompanied by an excerpt from > > > > Iravati> > Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. > > > > Supplementary readings > > > > > > include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The > > Ramayana of > > > > > > Valmiki: an epic of > > > > > > ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English > > > > > > translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly > > > > > > introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several > > honours,> > > > including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed > > scholar with > > > > > > impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of > > > > languages> > including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps > > > > without parallel. His > > > > > > credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive > > > > knowledge> > of ancient Indian literary traditions are > > > > incontestable. It is sad to > > > > > > see his name and work > > > > > > being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the > > > > article in > > > > > > question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and > > > > variety> > in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama > > > > within India > > > > > > and across the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture > > and the > > > > > > readings for it went through the same procedure as all other > > > > courses> > in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. > > > > The readings > > > > > > have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like > > > > all the > > > > > > other University courses, they are the product of a > > consultative> > > > process involving many members of the > > University community. The > > > > > > content and readings for this > > > > > > course were discussed extensively among Department members and > > > > College> > teachers, and were approved through the regular > > > > University procedures > > > > > > in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, > > Faculty of > > > > > > Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, > > > > which> > include > > > > > > teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the > > highest> > > > statutory body on academic matters in the University. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. We would like to emphasize that there is no published > > > > > > compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any > > > > other> > member of the Department of History. However, it has > > > > come to our > > > > > > notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies > > > > of the > > > > > > individual articles and excerpts related to this course at > > certain> > > > photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a > > covering page on > > > > > > which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any > > > > > > authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this > > > > collection of > > > > > > photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' > > > > compiled> > by her. There is in fact no book. > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not > > > > essential> > that the course-designers, teachers, or students > > > > should agree with or > > > > > > defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, > > dissent, and > > > > > > dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It > > > > may be > > > > > > pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused > > offence to > > > > > > certain individuals should in no way be construed as > > > > mischievous or > > > > > > slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or > > > > attempting> > to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, > > > > religion,> > tradition, or community. > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. The aim of the course in question is to teach > > University> > > > students (who are, after all, young adults) to > > be able to > > > > analyze a > > > > > > variety of source material academically, analytically, and > > without> > > > embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in > > which the > > > > course> > was framed and that is the spirit in which we > > believe it > > > > is being > > > > > > taught. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > > On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that > > > > Mayawati, the > > > > > > Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the > > book" be > > > > > > banned. > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under > < > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp%29under>> > < > > > > > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp%29under>a> > headline: > > > > > > "PM daughter in Ramayan row" > > > > > > > > > > > > New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has > > > > asked the > > > > > > Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University > > > > history> > students that allegedly contains objectionable > > > > references to > > > > > > characters in the Ramayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the > > > > Akhil> > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student > > > > wing, protested > > > > > > in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text was part > > > > of a book > > > > > > compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at > > DU, has, > > > > > > however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it > > > > to her > > > > > > students. > > > > > > "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The > > contentious> > > > article is not written by me. Nor is there any > > book of mine which > > > > > > contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being > > > > linked to > > > > > > the text," she told The Telegraph. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister > > > > had not > > > > > > yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime > > Minister was > > > > > > motivated by concerns over law and order in her state." > > > > > > > > > > > > The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi > > General> > > > Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate > > attempt to > > > > hurt> > the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP > > > > was seeking > > > > > > a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the > > contents> > > > of a > > > > > > research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried > > > > > > students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's > > version in > > > > > > their exam. > > > > > > > > > > > > "If the article is taught, students will be expected to > > > > reproduce it > > > > > > in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE > > > > WHAT IS > > > > > > TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu > > > > students> > will be > > > > > > forced to write something they do not believe in," she said. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor > > > > and the > > > > > > head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's > > > > essay> > from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely > > > > compiled a book > > > > > > with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet > > > > been> > published but we have a copy," Sharma said." > > > > > > > > > > > > Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it > > comes to > > > > > > generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard > > > > American> > ploy for remarks that generate offense--I apologize > > > > to those who may > > > > > > be offended by my editorial comment. FFC] > > > > > > > > > > > > To make a long story longer, today I received a report > > that a > > > > > > group of > > > > > > ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University > > > > History> > department and physically manhandled the head of the > > > > department. The > > > > > > following is reproduced as received including a note from the > > > > Head of > > > > > > Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from > > > > department> > students. It was forwarded by Professor Indrani > > > > Chatterjee.> > > > > > > > Dear Colleague, > > > > > > > > > > > > This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the > > > > > > Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some > > > > damage> > to the structure and gaining some mileage from it. They > > > > partly> > succeeded in their venture. No injuries to anybody > > > > except the glass > > > > > > doors has been caused. The other details you can see from the > > > > > > students letter which follows. > > > > > > > > > > > > Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI > > > > > > > > > > > > DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS! > > > > > > PUNISH THE CULPRITS! > > > > > > > > > > > > 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an > > organised> > > > mob of > > > > > > more than 100 people from outside the university led by > > the ABVP > > > > > > activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the > > > > School of > > > > > > Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the > > > > Head of > > > > > > the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they > > > > wished> > to speak > > > > > > to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA > > Part II, > > > > > > History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the > > > > media> > was present. > > > > > > Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the > > department> > > > members, they began to ransack the department. > > Even without > > > > speaking> > or giving a chance to the people present there from > > > > the department to > > > > > > speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office > > > > of the > > > > > > head of the > > > > > > department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held > > > > him by > > > > > > his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. > > Considerable> > > > damage to the property of the department by > > breaking the glass > > > > panes,> > damaging books, office files and other objects in the > > > > office was done > > > > > > and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very > > passive> > > > police! The outsiders threatened the faculty > > members and > > > > warned them > > > > > > of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It is > > > > clear> > that they had come with the clear intention of > > > > perpetuating violence > > > > > > in the department and it was a planned action to create an > > > > atmosphere> > of terror. > > > > > > > > > > > > This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police > > > > personnel> > as well as the media. The media footage would clearly > > > > show all that > > > > > > happened in the office of the head of the Department of > > > > History on the > > > > > > 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not > > > > belonging to > > > > > > the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members > > of the > > > > > > Department of > > > > > > History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the > > faculty> > > > members to change the curriculum of history which > > has been > > > > passed by > > > > > > the due legal process of the University through the use of > > force> > > > is a > > > > > > clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. > > > > Freedom> > of expression is a fundamental right of every > > > > individual and any > > > > > > encroachment on the same is > > > > > > not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values > > which are > > > > > > seriously threatened. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is an appeal from the students of history department > > to > > > > > > everyone in the University to raise their voice against this > > > > > > vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of > > > > > > expression . We appeal to all students, staff and teachers > > > > > > > > > > > > To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, > > > > Faculty> > of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008. > > > > > > > > > > > > Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great > > > > intellectual or > > > > > > not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit > > subject for > > > > > > critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will > > deplore this > > > > > > 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic > > > > department> > at Delhi University. > > > > > > > > > > > > As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to > > which> > > > comments may be relayed, but one immediate > > possibility would > > > > be to > > > > > > send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan > > > > > > at Delhi University. The postal > > > > address> > for the head of the department is: > > > > > > Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri, > > > > > > Head, > > > > > > Department of History, > > > > > > Faculty of Social Science building, > > > > > > University of Delhi, > > > > > > Delhi-110007. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will add one more personal editorial note that again > > will offend > > > > > > some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this > > > > episode> > offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past > > > > and our study > > > > > > of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research in > > > > Europe,> > America and other parts of the world may not resemble > > > > the Indian > > > > > > concept in which secularism means "no offense to any > > religion"- > > > > -we > > > > > > frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the > > > > > > "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called > > > > 'identity> > politics'--in the secure world of North America, the > > > > risks of mob > > > > > > action are small--but there are far too many university > > > > > > administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as > > customer' who > > > > > > wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of > > > > ontroversy.> > In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is > > > > not quite as exotic > > > > > > as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to > > believe.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > Frank F. Conlon > > > > > > Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian > > > > > > Studies & Comparative Religion > > > > > > University of Washington > > > > > > Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA > > > > > > Co-editor, H-ASIA > > > > > > President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online > > > > > > Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************> > > > > To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sadan Jha > > > > > > Assistant Professor, > > > > > > Centre for Social Studies. > > > > > > Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla > > Road.> > > > Surat. Gujarat. India. > > > > > > blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > > list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 14:32:38 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:32:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear radhika pseudo seculars is a term used by fascist hindutva forces against the left what do you want to prove by it now lets be clear about the term secularism wchich means separtion of religion and politcs wchich pecisely means the state should not have any religion in fact in any civilised society religion should be a private affair with respect to heretics and atheists thats the essence of democracy people who want every one should follow one religion are fascists tell me one thing clearly will you peole allow atheists to exist in your so called democracy what is your problem with du and jnu because they are different and students have polical awareness and take a stand do you want them to be iims and iits just dreaming of migrating to usa and having tons of money and gadgets while having naked pin ups in thier hostel rooms now comingback to left the word left as a historic origin going back to french revolution and the seating arrangements in the britsh parliament ie peole qwho wanted justice and social change thats the exact connotation of the word left which is opposed to status quosism and exploitative order if you are against left then what is your politcal position are you a supporter of status quo which means contination of brahminism, fuedalism, patriarcy and capitalism there is no neutral space in a polarised class society you have to choose and thats a politcal choice iwhere do you stand with the opressed or the opressors if you are not left then you are right supporting the exploitative social order asit On 2/29/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Dear Sadan, > > it is open secret that JNU and DU is filled with psuedo secular "scholars" with political connections for "educating the cadres for subversion of democratic India, living examples are Yechury and Karats in public life. That apart, politicians fill in their useless wards in to paying jobs at these two filling stations. > Secularism does not mean disrespect to any faith, but respect to all faiths. Left parties consistently with abetting Congress have undermined the faith and built non believers in to cadres of violent workers, later politburo uses these cadres for their selfish gains like in Nandigram or Singur is well documented now. > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sadan Jha > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:25 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear All, > > Today, I have read this mail from H-ASIA and thought to share it > > with you. > > This is in solidarity with faculty members and students of History > > Department, D.U. > > sadan. > > > > > > H-ASIA: Assault upon the Delhi University History Department H-ASIA > > Frank Conlon to H-ASIA > > > > > > H-ASIA > > Feburary 25, 2008 > > > > Assault by Hindutva mob on the Delhi University History Department > > ************************************************************************ > > From: Frank Conlon > > > > Earlier this month, our colleague Sumit Guha, forwarded some posts > > regarding a protest that had been generated by the VHP-linked ABVP > > (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad)--a highly politicized "student" > > movement of the Hindu right in India. Some of our readers will take > > exception to that > > description, but on the basis of all press accounts, I feel > > comfortable writing it. > > > > Like everything else, the story requires some context, and, > > remarkably, as in the debacle fifteen years ago when a > > Hindutva-inspired crowd demolished a mosque at Ayodhya on the pretense > > that it was built on the actual historical birthplace of the god Rama, > > Rama once again figures prominently in the story. Over the past > > months there has been a resurgance "Rama"publicity arising in part > > out of a proposed dredging of the sea bed near the southern tip of > > India for creation of a safe deepwater passage for coastal vessels. > > This was seized upon by interested parties who argued that this > > dredging would involve disruption of a natural feature in the seabed, > > known as "the Rama Setu" that has been credited in mythology to > > Rama's conquest of Lanka in the Ramayana epic poem. > > > > In popular consciousness mythology usually trumps geology and > > hydrology--(and I refer here not only to India!) if they ever mix it > > up in the ring of public affairs. So, much has been written in the > > past months about reasserting the vitality of Lord Rama and the > > preservation of the Rama legacy. > > > > Ever alert for issues upon which to mobilize followers and generate > > press, a substory of the above emerged in Delhi earlier this year. > > Protests were mounted over what was called a "book" "published" by the > > Delhi University History Department--and attributed--erroneously--to > > Professor Upinder > > Singh, a Professor of Archaeology and Ancient Indian History. The > > fact that Professor Singh happens to be the daughter of Prime Minister > > Manmohan Singh is, one suspects, not coincidental with the association > > of her name with the protest. The "book" was in fact not a > > publication at all, but a > > collection of "readings" for the Delhi University concurrent > > course on > > Ancient Indian Culture in the B. A. (Honours) programme. The packet > > included an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, titled "Three Hundred > > Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation", which has > > appeared earlier in a collection of the works of Ramanuman edited by > > Vinay Dharwadker and previously in Paula Richman's path-breaking > > collection of essyas _Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative > > Tradition in South Asia_ (U California Press, 1991). Of course, many > > readers of H-ASIA are > > familiar with the broad corpus of A. K. Ramanujan's contributions to > > the study of the history and culture of India including his wonderful > > translations of Tamil and Kannada bhakti poetry. > > > > At some point, a packet of these essays was photocopied in a Delhi > > shop with a "title page" crediting Upinder Singh, and out of that was > > manufactured a "new outrage regarding the hurting of feelings of > > devout Hindus" by the Delhi University History Department. > > > > An example of the rhetoric plied against Ramanujan's essay may suffice > > to give a flavor of the campaign. > > > > From http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/3819.html > > The Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Jan 18, 2008 post proclaims that > > Ramanujan in his essay "even sorts out a tale from Santhal folklore > > and puts forth the greatest outrage to Hindu psyche before the > > students of literature that Ravan as well as Lakshman both seduced > > Sita. No one on Earth so far dared to question the character of Sita > > so brazenly as Shri Ramanunjan has done, though, all through under the > > convenient cover of a folklore! > > "Sorting and picking out anything negative found in different versions > > of Ramayana spread all over the world with malicious intention has > > become a practice under the UPA [current Indian coalition government]. > > Despite the repeated protests by Hindu leaders, Shiksha Bharati and > > Shiksha Bachao Andolan, the practice still continues. > > > > "In a latest instance, the Delhi University for its BA (Hons) second > > year course has included portions defaming and denigrating the > > characters of Lord Ram, Hanuman, Lakshman and Sita and projecting the > > entire episode as fallacious, capricious, imaginary and fake." and > > it goes on to cite a > > groundswell of Hindu indignation that such blasphemies could be > > perpetrated by the Delhi University History department, and, of > > course, in particular, the daughter of the Prime Minister. > > > > On February 2, 2008, the Delhi University History Department issued > > the following statement: > > > > DEPARTMENT OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF DELHI, > > IN ITS MEETING OF 04/02/2008 > > > > 1. A number of groups have organised protest and have raised > > objections to the inclusion of an essay by (late) A. K. Ramanujan, > > titled "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on > > Translation". The essay had been published in Vinay Dharwadker (ed.) > > The Collected Essays of A. K. Ramanujan, New Delhi: Oxford University > > Press, 1999, pp. 131-60; [this was an expanded version of a piece > > that first > > appeared in Paula Richman (ed.) Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a > > Narrative Tradition in South Asia Berkeley: niversity of California > > Press, 1991]. The said essay is one of he readings for the Delhi > > University concurrent course on ncient Indian Culture in the B. > > A.(Honours) programme, which has been offered in several Colleges from > > July 2006 onwards. > > 2. The sole purpose of this course is to create an awareness and > > understanding of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of ancient > > India among students, and to acquaint them with original sources. > > Apart from the reading mentioned in the letter, the course includes > > readings on Kalidasa's poetry, Jataka stories, ancient Tamil poets and > > poetry, ancient > > iconography, and the modern history of ancient artifacts. The > > essay is > > part of a unit titled 'The Ramayana and Mahabharata - stories, > > characters, versions.' It is accompanied by an excerpt from Iravati > > Karve's book, Yuganta: The end of an epoch. Supplementary readings > > include the Introduction of Robert P. Goldman's The Ramayana of > > Valmiki: an epic of > > ancient India (the most recent and most authoritative English > > translation of the epic), which gives a detailed, scholarly > > introduction to the Valmiki Ramayana. > > > > 3. The late A. K. Ramanujan (recipient of several honours, > > including the Padmashri) was a widely acclaimed scholar with > > impeccable academic credentials. His expertise in a range of languages > > including Sanskrit,Tamil and Kannada was perhaps without parallel. His > > credentials as a scholar, writer, and teacher with extensive knowledge > > of ancient Indian literary traditions are incontestable. It is sad to > > see his name and work > > being subjected so such ill-informed controversy. In the article in > > question, he illustrates and analyses the great dynamism and variety > > in what he describes as 'tellings' of the story of Rama within India > > and across the world. > > > > 4. The concurrent course on Ancient Indian Culture and the > > readings for it went through the same procedure as all other courses > > in the University of Delhi pass before being adopted. The readings > > have not been devised or 'compiled' by any individual. Like all the > > other University courses, they are the product of a consultative > > process involving many members of the University community. The > > content and readings for this > > course were discussed extensively among Department members and College > > teachers, and were approved through the regular University procedures > > in statutory bodies, namely the Committee of Courses, Faculty of > > Social Sciences, Academic Council, and the Executive Council, which > > include > > teachers of all disciplines. The Academic Council is the highest > > statutory body on academic matters in the University. > > > > 5. We would like to emphasize that there is no published > > compilation of the course readings by Dr. Upinder Singh or any other > > member of the Department of History. However, it has come to our > > notice that there is a spiral-bound collection of photocopies of the > > individual articles and excerpts related to this course at certain > > photocopying shops. This set of hotocopies has a covering page on > > which Dr. Upinder Singh's name has been typed, without any > > authorization whatsoever, as a 'compiler.' It is this collection of > > photocopies that is being incorrectly described as a 'book' compiled > > by her. There is in fact no book. > > > > 6. When readings are prescribed in a course, it is not essential > > that the course-designers, teachers, or students should agree with or > > defend each and every word therein. In fact debate, dissent, and > > dialogue are important parts of the discipline of history. It may be > > pointed out that the terms that have apparently caused offence to > > certain individuals should in no way be construed as mischievous or > > slanderous. There is no question whatsoever of intending or attempting > > to denigrate or hurt the sentiments of any culture, religion, > > tradition, or community. > > > > 7. The aim of the course in question is to teach University > > students (who are, after all, young adults) to be able to analyze a > > variety of source material academically, analytically, and without > > embarrassment or denigration. That is the spirit in which the course > > was framed and that is the spirit in which we believe it is being > > taught. > > > > ------ > > On the same day _The Telegraph_ (Kolkata) reported that Mayawati, the > > Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh had demanded that "the book" be > > banned. > > (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080203/jsp/nation/story_8857319.jsp)under a headline: > > "PM daughter in Ramayan row" > > > > New Delhi, Feb. 2: Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mayavati has asked the > > Prime Minister to ban a text recommended for Delhi University history > > students that allegedly contains objectionable references to > > characters in the Ramayan. > > > > Mayavati made the written request to Manmohan Singh after the Akhil > > Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the BJP's student wing, protested > > in Delhi and Lucknow, claiming the contentious text was part of a book > > compiled by the Prime Minister's daughter Upinder Singh. > > > > Upinder Singh, a professor of ancient Indian history at DU, has, > > however, denied she had compiled the piece or recommended it to her > > students. > > "I have absolutely nothing to do with this text. The contentious > > article is not written by me. Nor is there any book of mine which > > contains the article. I fail to understand why I am being linked to > > the text," she told The Telegraph. > > > > Sources close to Mayavati confirmed that the chief minister had not > > yet seen the "book", but said her letter to the Prime Minister was > > motivated by concerns over law and order in her state." > > > > The report continued with a quotation from the ABVP Delhi General > > Secretary Ms. Niharika Sharma "This is a deliberate attempt to hurt > > the sentiments of the Hindu community." Asked why the ABVP was seeking > > a ban instead of allowing college students to debate the contents > > of a > > research publication, Sharma said the organisation was worried > > students would feel pressured to replicate Ramanujan's version in > > their exam. > > > > "If the article is taught, students will be expected to reproduce it > > in exams as well. IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, UNLESS YOU WRITE WHAT IS > > TAUGHT IN CLASS, YOU DO NOT GET MARKS [emphasis added] Hindu students > > will be > > forced to write something they do not believe in," she said. > > > > The ABVP has already sent memoranda to the DU vice-chancellor and the > > head of the history department seeking deletion of Ramanujan's essay > > from the course. "Upinder Singh has most definitely compiled a book > > with the objectionable text as a chapter. The book has not yet been > > published but we have a copy," Sharma said." > > > > Karl Rove has nothing to teach the Hindu Right when it comes to > > generating controversy (and here I will adopt the standard American > > ploy for remarks that generate offense--I apologize to those who may > > be offended by my editorial comment. FFC] > > > > To make a long story longer, today I received a report that a > > group of > > ABVP activists vandalized the office of the Delhi University History > > department and physically manhandled the head of the department. The > > following is reproduced as received including a note from the Head of > > Department Professor S. Z. H. Jafri and an open letter from department > > students. It was forwarded by Professor Indrani Chatterjee. > > > > Dear Colleague, > > > > This is to inform you that the ABVP activists had come to the > > Department around 2.00 p.m. with the intention of causing some damage > > to the structure and gaining some mileage from it. They partly > > succeeded in their venture. No injuries to anybody except the glass > > doors has been caused. The other details you can see from the > > students letter which follows. > > > > Professor S.Z.H. JAFRI > > > > DOWN WITH ABVP VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS! > > PUNISH THE CULPRITS! > > > > 25th February 2008. At about 2 pm in the afternoon an organised > > mob of > > more than 100 people from outside the university led by the ABVP > > activist Vikas Dahiya gathered outside the building of the School of > > Social Sciences. Some 8-10 people came to the office of the Head of > > the Department of History, Prof S.Z.H. Jafri saying that they wished > > to speak > > to him and to Prof B.P. Sahu about the curriculum of BA Part II, > > History (Concurrent). They insisted on speaking only once the media > > was present. > > Once the media arrived, in place of speaking to the department > > members, they began to ransack the department. Even without speaking > > or giving a chance to the people present there from the department to > > speak, these people toppled the table and ransacked the office of the > > head of the > > department. One of them also manhandled Prof. Jafri and held him by > > his collar and hurled abuses at those present there. Considerable > > damage to the property of the department by breaking the glass panes, > > damaging books, office files and other objects in the office was done > > and all inthe presence of the media personnel and the very passive > > police! The outsiders threatened the faculty members and warned them > > of dire consequences. This is a clear act of vandalism. It is clear > > that they had come with the clear intention of perpetuating violence > > in the department and it was a planned action to create an atmosphere > > of terror. > > > > This incidence occurred in the very presence of the police personnel > > as well as the media. The media footage would clearly show all that > > happened in the office of the head of the Department of History on the > > 25th afternoon. The attack by 8-10 robust hooligans, not belonging to > > the university, on absolutely defenceless faculty members of the > > Department of > > History is a shameful act in itself. Trying to force the faculty > > members to change the curriculum of history which has been passed by > > the due legal process of the University through the use of force > > is a > > clear act of fascism which is not acceptable in a democracy. Freedom > > of expression is a fundamental right of every individual and any > > encroachment on the same is > > not tolerable. It is democratic structures and values which are > > seriously threatened. > > > > This is an appeal from the students of history department to > > everyone in the University to raise their voice against this > > vandalism and this fascist attempt to scuttle the freedom of > > expression . We appeal to all students, staff and teachers > > > > To JOIN the Protest March at 10.30 a.m. at Vivekanand Statue, Faculty > > of Arts on the 26th of February, 2008. > > > > Whether one feels that A. K. Ramanujan was a great intellectual or > > not; and whether one agrees that India's past is a fit subject for > > critical analysis, I believe that H-ASIA members will deplore this > > 'media-savvy' creation of a physical assault on an academic department > > at Delhi University. > > > > As of the moment, I have not received an e-mail address to which > > comments may be relayed, but one immediate possibility would be to > > send comment for forwarding to Dr. Mahesh Rangarajan > > at Delhi University. The postal address > > for the head of the department is: > > Prof. Saiyid Zaheer Hussain Jafri, > > Head, > > Department of History, > > Faculty of Social Science building, > > University of Delhi, > > Delhi-110007. > > > > I will add one more personal editorial note that again will offend > > some folks (and not the ones offended earlier either)--this episode > > offers, in my view, the fruits of politicizing the past and our study > > of it--and while concepts of secular humanistic research in Europe, > > America and other parts of the world may not resemble the Indian > > concept in which secularism means "no offense to any religion"--we > > frequently find urselves as scholars and teachers facing the > > "concerns" of various practitioners of what may be called 'identity > > politics'--in the secure world of North America, the risks of mob > > action are small--but there are far too many university > > administrators--wedded to the concept of 'student as customer' who > > wring their hands over anything academic which smacks of ontroversy. > > In other words, Delhi University's misfortune is not quite as exotic > > as some folks on this side of the kala pani would like to believe. > > > > > > Frank > > > > Frank F. Conlon > > Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian > > Studies & Comparative Religion > > University of Washington > > Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA > > Co-editor, H-ASIA > > President, H-NET Humanities & Social Sciences Online > > Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online > > ****************************************************************** > > To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: > > > > > > > > -- > > Sadan Jha > > Assistant Professor, > > Centre for Social Studies. > > Vir Narmad South Gujarat University Campus. Udhna-Magdalla Road. > > Surat. Gujarat. India. > > blog: mamuliram.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ravikant at sarai.net Sat Mar 1 19:09:34 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 19:09:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Subrahmanyam on Ram Guha and Nussbaum Message-ID: <200803011909.34817.ravikant@sarai.net> London Review of Books Vol. 29 No. 18 dated 20 September 2007 Sanjay Subrahmanyam *India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy* by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 *The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence and India's Future* by Martha Nussbaum · Belknap, 403 pp, £19.95 It may seem perverse to begin an essay on India by invoking a historian of France: Eugen Weber, who died this year, a colleague of mine and a formidable presence at UCLA. He wrote a book in 1976 on how France became a proper nation by transforming 'peasants into Frenchmen'. But the Weber I knew, and bantered with during the last years of his life, also had an Indian past of which he felt periodically obliged to speak, though he spoke of it to me with discomfort. Born in Bucharest, Weber was sent to school in England, served in the Second World War as a captain in the King's Own Scottish Borderers, and in the course of his service spent the mid-1940s in India, after earlier stints in Belgium and Germany. Demobilised in 1947, he went to Cambridge, and devoted the rest of his life to history, mostly French history. He maintained his affection for India and visited it a few times in later years. It was an affection that was tempered by chilling memories of the religious violence he had witnessed at close quarters in 1946-47; hence the discomfort he felt in talking about it. Weber is best known for his account of the building of the modern French nation in the course of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It is an account that involves roads and railways, schoolrooms and stern * instituteurs*, and the production of homogeneous 'Frenchness' (as both reality and myth) from the diverse *terroirs* that still existed in 1870. It is either a version of modernisation theory, as some of its critics have claimed, or a sly account of the modernising pretensions and projects of the Parisian elite, or both of these – as Weber sometimes hinted. Devoid of pretentious jargon, or any overt nod in the direction of the social sciences, Weber's work has been a model of how to write modern national histories since its publication thirty years ago. Its long shadow falls even on Benedict Anderson's account of the way print capitalism helped create the 'imagined communities' that are today's nation-states. No such master account has yet been written of the modern Indian nation-state, partly because historians of the subcontinent have usually shied away from the period after 1947, leaving that task to political scientists, sociologists and omniscient travellers. The curious practices of Indian archives and their keepers have not helped either: documents are declassified and allowed into the public domain on a very erratic basis. When my wife, a historian of modern France, asked me some time ago to recommend an accessible work on the history of modern India, I couldn't think of one. Sumit Sarkar's sweeping but dense account, *Modern India,*stopped at 1947; the collective volume entitled *India after Independence* by Bipan Chandra, Aditya Mukherjee and Mridula Mukherjee was a stodgy piece of nationalist-Marxist writing from the rank and file of plodders at New Delhi's Jawaharlal Nehru University. Though an admirer of many of V.S. Naipaul's novels, I could not subject my wife to a diet of such bile-infused travelogues as *An Area of Darkness*, or to Naipaul's later apologia for right-wing Hindu nationalism in *India: A Million Mutinies Now*. Eventually, I settled for Sunil Khilnani's *The Idea of India*, an urbane, readable and sometimes personal account by a historically-minded political scientist who, again, had worked on France – his first book was *Arguing Revolution: The Intellectual Left in Postwar France*. Khilnani's work on India has the virtue of assuming little prior knowledge of that part of the world. It also has one significant vice: its author's weakness for the personality and ideas of independent India's first prime minister, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (1889-1964), whose biography he is now writing. It was only a matter of time before this massive historiographical gap would be filled. The task that Ramachandra Guha sets himself in his massive *India after Gandhi* is not quite that of describing the Indian *fin des terroirs*(the first French title of the translated *Peasants into Frenchmen*). But it is the story of the building of a rather improbable nation-state from a fragmented political landscape, and as such it is first of all a political account. Like Weber's work, it is also primarily a narrative account, expertly and fluently written; it has apparently found its way to the top of the non-fiction bestseller list in India (a list that is itself a form of fiction). It also avoids jargon and too much use of the social sciences and their apparatus. Guha has had an unorthodox career. Initially trained as an economist, he then moved into historical sociology (tempered with anthropology): his first book-length work was on the history of an environmental movement in the Himalayas. Over the past two decades, he has continued off and on to work on the environment, in the form of general histories, comparative reflections and tracts with a more contemporary message. A second interest has been the history of anthropology, largely through his engagement with the life of the missionary-turned-anthropologist Verrier Elwin. He has also written on the history of sport in colonial and post-colonial India, and above all cricket, about which he also writes in a more popular style. He has refused a secure position in the academy, and makes a living from writing and lectures, including regular columns in two Indian newspapers, the *Telegraph* and the *Hindu*. He is probably the best-known public historian in India today, and the one whose books and collections of essays – as against those of Partha Chatterjee or Romila Thapar – the visitor is most likely to find in a middle-class drawing-room. If he has a rival in the public domain, it is the Delhi-based Scotsman William Dalrymple, with whom he does not quite see eye to eye for reasons having to do with their respective positions on British imperialism and Indian nationalism. The reader of *India after Gandhi* will come quickly to the conclusion that Guha is indeed an Indian nationalist, though a moderate and self-critical one. He is also a self-defined 'liberal', a word that has no real resonance in Indian politics today, but which is meant to suggest a distance from both Marxist historiography and the ideology of the right-wing Hindu nationalists who until recently were in power in New Delhi. He has set out to produce an account of India since 1947 focusing on why India has remained a democracy against the odds, using the 'techniques of the narrative historian' rather than those of the social scientist. The basic argument is straightforward enough: there are forces that divide India, and others that keep it together. Among the first set of forces, there are four in particular, all large and impersonal: caste, language, religion and class. These operate at times singly and at times together. The forces that keep India together, and which are still somehow winning out, are vaguer and less evident. Near the end of his prologue, which he calls 'Unnatural Nation', Guha assures us these forces 'have included individuals as well as institutions'. But in what proportion, one is entitled to ask, and in what combinations? Guha tells his story in five sections. The first, 'Picking up the Pieces', addresses the immediate aftermath of Partition and independence, beginning with the assassination of Gandhi in January 1948, and in 120 dense pages sets the stage for what follows; the second, longer section is 'Nehru's India', and carries the story forward to 1957, when it seemed that Nehru's plans for a modern, industrialised, secular India might actually be implemented; the third, 'Shaking the Centre', chronicles Nehru's declining years, including the disastrous war in 1962 with China; the fourth, 'The Rise of Populism', takes us through the complex cycle of the rise to power, temporary eclipse, second rise and ultimate murder of Nehru's only child, Indira Gandhi, and then of her own elder son, Rajiv; the fifth, final section, in which the author, in his own words, 'moves from "history" to what might instead be called "historically informed journalism"', takes us from the late 1980s to the present. The balance, however, is clear enough: the Nehru years are at the heart of the book. The good philosopher-king, succeeded by the scheming, corrupt and spoilt princess-in-waiting, and then by the well-intentioned but weak, pouting and feckless young prince. This sounds rather like the dynastic history that early modern historians, myself included, used to practise (Nehru as Charles V, Mrs Gandhi as Philip II and so on). That isn't entirely Guha's fault. The raw material of modern high politics in India is, after all, largely dynastic, as it is to some extent in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But Guha makes choices which exaggerate this aspect. The most significant is his decision to 'humanise' his history by consistently highlighting the place and role of individuals, Nehru and Indira Gandhi most prominently. This is not to say that there aren't a number of Rosencrantzes and Guildensterns around: the book abounds in deft portrayals of political figures, from Communists such as Namboodiripad in Kerala, to separatists in the north-east and Kashmir. There is even the Polonius-like Iyengar Brahmin from Tamil Nadu, C. Rajagopalachari, who wags his finger and advises all and sundry to neither a borrower nor a lender be. But for all his skill with portraiture, it is a relief when the social scientist periodically re-emerges to tell us of the planning process and its pitfalls, or of the abiding problems of poverty and caste in a 'globalised' India, or even when he invokes Durkheim to discuss the issue of farmers' suicides. This is, in many ways, a dazzling book. Its prose is always attractive, and it has a sure chronological organisation. The different regions get a fair and balanced treatment, which is not always the case in such histories. Besides memoirs, monographs, essays and contemporary newspapers, Guha has also examined important archival collections, such as the papers of Indira Gandhi's right-hand man in the early 1970s, P.N. Haksar. But those inclined to a more inclusive social history will find the biographically-oriented political narrative overwhelming. And little space is given to culture, even to sport – a surprise, given Guha's enthusiasm for it. But the central problem remains: how to organise a narrative history in the absence of a governing thesis such as that proposed and defended by Eugen Weber? And what might such a central thesis have been, had Guha chosen to pursue one? He might possibly have focused on social mobility and its limits over the past sixty years. This would have meant dealing jointly with two of the issues that he sees as crucial challenges to Indian democracy: caste and class. He is in truth well aware of how fruitful this line of inquiry can be: 'as a laboratory of social conflict,' he writes, 'the India of the 20th century is – for the historian – at least as interesting as the Europe of the 19th,' adding that 'in India the scope for contention has been even greater, given the diversity of competing groups across religion, caste, class and language.' If Guha had gone further, the real question would have been how it is that India, despite the fact that it has effectively provided so little opportunity for economic and social mobility, has nevertheless experienced comparatively little social violence. This is not to understate the violence that takes place in both towns and countryside, whether the bloody eruptions or the quiet violence of everyday oppression. But it is remarkable how different the situation in India is from that in Latin America or much of Africa. The violence of a city such as Mumbai, dramatised in recent years by, for example, Suketu Mehta in *Maximum** City*, does not really compare with São Paulo, Mexico City or Lagos. To explain this, some would stress the complementary relationship between India's political system and its social and economic dynamics. To writers such as the Paris-based political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot – he is only one among many to make the point – the political system in India effectively diverts energies that might in other societies have exploded violently. In *India's Silent Revolution: The Rise of the Lower Castes in North India* (2003), Jaffrelot plots the rise to political office of a large number of lower-caste men and even some women. A particularly dramatic instance was the 'bandit queen', Phoolan Devi (1963-2001), who belonged to the *mallah* caste of boat people in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. After serving 11 years in prison, she was elected to the Indian Parliament in 1996 on behalf of the Samajwadi Party, and was eventually shot outside her home in New Delhi. Revenge was given as the motive behind her killers' actions: most belonged to far higher castes than she did. It is also possible to plot the entrepreneurial use of the political system by those who could certainly never have been recruited into the Indian Administrative Service. The pool of industrial entrepreneurs in India still remains limited, with very few exceptions to a small group of castes; politics, on the other hand, has opened up in a way that it has not in neighbouring Pakistan or Bangladesh. In other words, the Indian world is not much like Weber's France, in which a relatively limited and coherent elite set out to 'modernise' the rest of the nation in both discursive and institutional terms. In India, from the time of Nehru to the present day, it is the political elite itself that has been transformed, in ways that are deeply disturbing to upper-caste voices and points of view. This has gone hand in hand with what has been called the 'criminalisation of politics': large numbers of legislators in India today are either convicted felons, or face criminal charges of one sort or another. But this cannot be separated from the larger problem of how the limits placed on mobility by class and caste can be addressed in a democratic framework. The question was close to the heart of one of Guha's mentors, the liberal sociologist André Béteille, and has been addressed more recently by political theorists further to the left, such as Partha Chatterjee, who have posited a lasting distinction between the tea and biscuits of 'civil society' and the rough and tumble of 'political society'. Whether or not one wishes to accept such a rigid distinction, it could certainly provide the guiding theme for a discussion of the past sixty years. An alternative focus might have been the issue of regions, and the various centrifugal and centripetal forces that inhere in a space that is more populous and perhaps more complex than the European Union. Guha discusses the problem largely in relation to two sets of issues: first, the way region is read through the prism of language and linguistic divisions; and second, the problem of the northern and north-eastern border states, which have long challenged Indian political unity. However, we are now aware that sixty years of independence have, if anything, sharpened regional disparities in India, not so much in cultural terms – where some homogenisation can be seen – but in relation to such basic factors as demography. It is possible to draw a diagonal line sloping from right to left across the centre of India – a sort of 'St Malo-Geneva line' in reverse – and to discern sharp differences above and below the line in terms of rates of population growth, infant mortality, economic status for women and relative numbers of men and women. This can be recast as a more complex problem still, once the role of megacities is taken into consideration. Such phenomena as the alleged transformation of peasants into programmers are what Guha has in mind when he cites Amartya Sen, who worries that one half of India will come to look and live like California, the other half like sub-Saharan Africa. This could just as easily be said of growth in China in the age of globalisation. Just as significant is the fact that such economic and social differences could well manifest themselves regionally. In other words, even as a number of the older cultural conflicts based on such considerations as language or 'ethnicity' (in particular, the somewhat bogus divide between Aryans and Dravidians) have been resolved, other longer-term regional differences have persisted and even become aggravated, with every prospect of further aggravation as both politics and political economy become more rather than less decentralised. Guha hints at some of these issues, but eventually sets them aside. In so doing, he may gain a large audience but he misses the opportunity – if that is the right word – to have a real argument with others in the field. The problem of narrative exposition finds a quite different solution in Martha Nussbaum's *The Clash Within*, a book less than half the size of Guha's doorstop. After training in Hellenistic philosophy and the interpretation of Aristotle, Nussbaum has begun in recent years to write far more widely on issues of development, feminism and public affairs. Her interest in India stems from personal dealings over two decades with a number of prominent Indians (especially the family of Kshiti Mohan Sen and Amartya Sen); in her preface, she relates this to her conversion from an 'elite Wasp heritage' to Judaism and 'the cause of the underdog in my own country', and adds that she is 'sure that my passion for India (and particularly for Bengali culture) reflects a similar enthusiasm for the colonial underdog'. Nussbaum says she celebrates Indian Independence Day on 15 August 'enthusiastically' in Chicago (even Indian ambassadors abroad have been known merely to go through the motions on 15 August). This is arguably a more curious form of – vicarious – Indian nationalism than that of Ramachandra Guha, who still lives in Bangalore. Nussbaum's book deals with religious violence in India, and more particularly with Hindu majoritarian violence organised around groups often called by their three-letter acronyms (the RSS, VHP, BJP and so on). It is primarily a sort of travelogue, reviving the narrative form of philosopher as traveller most famously associated with the French doctor (and disciple of Gassendi) François Bernier, in 17th-century Mughal India. Nussbaum is manifestly a liberal, in the American sense of a left-leaning Democrat. Her intention is to be Socratic, open and engaging with her Indian interlocutors, who include a number of rather unpleasant defenders (and perhaps even some perpetrators) of mass violence. Nussbaum's book is, she claims, intended 'for an American and European audience' and is meant as a 'loudspeaker' for views already expressed in India by other, presumably less famous scholars. I suppose I am not its ideal reader. If the book were to raise awareness in the West of the acuteness of certain forms of politico-religious tension in India and the role played by a number of clearly identifiable groups in organising and justifying mass violence, that would be laudable. But if it is intended as a work of genuine scholarship on India, questions can and should be raised. A work like this can easily cause embarrassment among those devoted to the same political causes as Nussbaum, and, to judge by responses on the internet, it may already have done so. It will be easy enough for those who want to mock the book and its political message to point to its errors of historical fact, its eccentric views regarding Indian scripts and the difference between Hindi and Urdu, and debatable statements on a variety of other questions, where Nussbaum is simply paraphrasing or repeating what she has been told, without being able to apply her own considerable critical faculties to the questions at hand. Perhaps with a view to getting around this problem, Nussbaum resorts for a good portion of the book to first-person accounts of her own experiences, including interviews with a number of the dramatis personae. But the interviews are rather stylised and follow predictable patterns. There is usually a physical description of the interviewee: Arun Shourie has 'a long straight moustache, restless burning eyes, a bald head fringed with thick grey hair'; Romila Thapar has 'a stately bearing, a deep, mellifluous voice and elite, British-accented English', and so on. When Nussbaum is sympathetic to their views, they are presented with a minimum of fuss; when she is not, they are presented condescendingly, as psychologically inadequate or disturbed persons, as much to be pitied as they are to be censured; only occasionally does she find someone really beyond the pale. There is also an occasional (perhaps involuntary) genuflection to reflexive anthropology, as when we find Nussbaum on a January morning in Delhi 'wrapping my shawl vainly around my cotton *salwaar kameez*', since she cannot persuade her taxi driver to drive with his windows closed (normally a simple task for non-philosopher travellers). The significance of her clothing on this occasion escapes me. At the end of these interviews, which are interspersed with reflections on Gandhi and Tagore (whom Nussbaum greatly admires) and Nehru (for whom her admiration is more mixed), one knows no more than one would have found out by reading the Indian newspapers from time to time. Nussbaum is preaching to the converted, and no one who does not share her views at the beginning is likely to change their mind by the end. The constant references to Tagore, and to his relevance in India today, are misplaced since even the Bengali * bhadralok* bourgeoisie has now shown signs of moving beyond his deist philosophising and monotonous romantic message. Yet Nussbaum continues to insist that 'India needs Tagore today even more than it needs Nehru and Gandhi,' as if theirs were the only significant points of view available. One can see the traces here of her excessive dependence on expatriate Bengali informants, as if Chicago were no more than an intellectual suburb of Kolkata. Nevertheless, the publication of Nussbaum's book by a major US university press and the reviews of it that have appeared in many non-academic journals and magazines, might suggest that even the bad times are good. Interest in the Indian subcontinent is at a high in the Atlantic world, after years in which Japan, Korea and China were at the centre of attention. The trade press is now open to those who work on India, not just to novelists and travellers. More will be heard. * Sanjay Subrahmanyam* teaches history at UCLA. He is completing a book entitled *Three Ways to Be an Alien*. ------------------------------------------------------- From ravikant at sarai.net Sat Mar 1 19:21:54 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 19:21:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of the violence in DU. Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also the follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/ On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) by RAVIKANT http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/ You may have seen the edit in today’s HT condemning the act of vandalism and the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also seen reports in today’s newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in Delhi University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty and reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just because ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the text in question is A K Ramanujan’s Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula Richman: Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia (OUP; 1991.) You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over this for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure on the department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly a soft target. Dr. Upinder Singh’s name was also dragged into the controversy to kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to embarass the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. The PMO was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy. But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of media involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus which was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus making, etc. So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat Sharma of India TV shame — which I think lacks both resources and ideas and yet wants to stay up in the ratings — roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to debate the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not read the text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something about it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not a surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the camera crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played the footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into action and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging. I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always intrigued by my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other uttered by some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after bath but I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he referred to Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had a small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins, who earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was held every now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing ‘hare ram hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare’ so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather classy and genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have been transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not have any memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding the non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came alive to me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra’s recital of Sundarkand: the classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different ways some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed the Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP would want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they will go mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha’s Khattar Kaka. Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don’t read as much as they should! From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 20:03:21 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 20:03:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation A. K. Ramanujan How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is one. One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet. Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me." Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing. So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole. He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld. There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do. While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him. They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?" "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk." Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are talking, his head should be cut off." "It will be done," said Rama. Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than Laksmana, ________________________________________ ― 23 ― so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to enter," he ordered. Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is Rama?" Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's important." "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must go in, right now." Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you in." "Go in and ask then." "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait." "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra. Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die." So he went right in. Rama asked him, "What's the matter?" "Visvamitra is here." "Send him in." So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end. Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's all they wanted to say. Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head." Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why should I cut off your head?" Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave." Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared in the flowing waters. When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers, Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu. All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama. "Rama Rama Rama . . ." Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?" "Hanuman." "Hanuman? Why have you come here?" ________________________________________ ― 24 ― "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it." The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take it." They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said Hanuman, shaking his head. The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep them. Now you can go." So Hanuman left. This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese, Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri, Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit, Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays, dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2] Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata , because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed. Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that there is an invariant, an original or ________________________________________ ― 25 ― Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another. It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ; they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama), Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different. Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be vastly different. Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both narrate the story of Ahalya. The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki To read more , please click: http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant wrote: > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of the > violence in DU. > > Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many > Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also the > follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas > > http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/ > > On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) > by RAVIKANT > > http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/ > > You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of vandalism and > the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also seen > reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in Delhi > University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty and > reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just because > ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the text in > question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three > Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula Richman: > Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia (OUP; > 1991.) > You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over this > for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure on the > department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly a soft > target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the controversy to > kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to embarass > the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. The PMO > was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy. > But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of media > involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the > delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus which > was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus making, etc. > So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat Sharma > of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and yet > wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to debate > the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not read the > text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept > highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something about > it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not a > surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the camera > crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less > surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played the > footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into action > and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging. > I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always intrigued by > my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other uttered by > some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after bath but > I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he referred to > Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had a > small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins, who > earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the > Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was held every > now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing 'hare ram > hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna > hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The > important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather classy and > genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the > Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have been > transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not have any > memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding the > non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came alive to > me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of Sundarkand: the > classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different ways > some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed the > Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP would > want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they will go > mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's Khattar Kaka. > Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much as they > should! > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 23:52:31 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:52:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Poignant play on plight of Kashmiri Pandits In-Reply-To: <6353c690803020929u129dd89bq13e3b48cfa9451cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803020929u129dd89bq13e3b48cfa9451cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803021022x7c50563v3cc5f86c5baf54eb@mail.gmail.com> *Poignant play on plight of Kashmiri Pandits * ** ** *Chandigarh, February 29* *Trishna, a play depicting the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, was staged by 'Roots in Kashmir' (RIK)-an initiative launched by the Kashmiri youth. The play highlighted the atrocities inflicted upon the minority community. * *-* *The play, staged in three parts, depicted the real life incidents of three families that underwent the trauma of terrorism in Kashmir. In the beginning, Rajesh, who was to become a father in two months, was killed by the terrorists leaving behind his pregnant wife Geeta.* *-* *The second part highlighted the misery of a father, who suggested his daughters to commit suicide in view of the growing exploitation of women in Kashmir. The last part showcased the plight of a woman crying for help to save her husband's life who fell prey to the terrorism. * ** *Entire piece can be read with pictures at - http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* ** *On behalf of Roots In Kashmir * ** *Aditya Raj Kaul* *New Delhi* From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 00:56:02 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 00:56:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many political ups and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain support and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this goons who keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do so they raise a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still. It is quite evident in this particular case that some left oriented faculty members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I mean, everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are here talking about a Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book. We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few hundred more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a change concentrate on the original source while studying history in an institution rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to create hype out of this and get cheap publicity. They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the religious sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. What ABVP did was still peaceful. If it would have been something against Prophet Mohhamad then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and the so called intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire state is sad. I dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it cool to be with communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. etc... God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures. P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email. Regards Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/1/08, inder salim wrote: > > Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on > Translation > A. K. Ramanujan > How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some > Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have > there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is > one. > One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When > it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared > into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet. > Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me." > Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power > to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing. > So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole. > He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld. > There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from > above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The > King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat > animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with > his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do. > While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on > the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him. > They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want > anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?" > "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk." > Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are > talking, his head should be cut off." > "It will be done," said Rama. > Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman > had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than > Laksmana, > ________________________________________ > ― 23 ― > so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to > enter," he ordered. > Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared > and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is > Rama?" > Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's > important." > "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must > go in, right now." > Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you in." > "Go in and ask then." > "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait." > "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire > kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra. > Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this > hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things > living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die." > So he went right in. > Rama asked him, "What's the matter?" > "Visvamitra is here." > "Send him in." > So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end. > Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in > the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now > he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's > all they wanted to say. > Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head." > Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why > should I cut off your head?" > Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm > your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your > wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave." > Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His > time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared > in the flowing waters. > When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers, > Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his > twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu. > All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally > taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama. > "Rama Rama Rama . . ." > Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?" > "Hanuman." > "Hanuman? Why have you come here?" > ________________________________________ > ― 24 ― > "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it." > The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands > of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to > Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take > it." > They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said > Hanuman, shaking his head. > The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are > rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find > Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of > Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep > them. Now you can go." > So Hanuman left. > This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there > is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their > influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five > hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in > which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese, > Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri, > Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit, > Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of > Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have > hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone > contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various > narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas > or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays, > dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk > traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must > be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and > shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2] > Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred > tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth > century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata , > because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning > under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada > kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous > previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for > myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a > story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions > relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed. > Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas > Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have > come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or > variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that > there is an invariant, an original or > ________________________________________ > ― 25 ― > Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most > prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always > Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another. > It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The > tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and > texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for > example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas > (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ; > they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama), > Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of > Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki > also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and > kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the > English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to > the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be > the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different. > Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the > style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be > vastly different. > Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same > point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first > book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the > first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both > narrate the story of Ahalya. > The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki > To read more , please click: > > > http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant wrote: > > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of > the > > violence in DU. > > > > Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many > > Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also > the > > follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas > > > > http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/ > > > > On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) > > by RAVIKANT > > > > http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/ > > > > You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of > vandalism and > > the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also seen > > reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in > Delhi > > University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty > and > > reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just > because > > ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the > text in > > question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and > Three > > Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula > Richman: > > Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia > (OUP; > > 1991.) > > You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over > this > > for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure > on the > > department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly > a soft > > target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the controversy > to > > kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to > embarass > > the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. > The PMO > > was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy. > > But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of > media > > involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the > > delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus > which > > was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus > making, etc. > > So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat > Sharma > > of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and > yet > > wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to > debate > > the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not read > the > > text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept > > highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something > about > > it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not a > > surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the > camera > > crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less > > surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played the > > footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into > action > > and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging. > > I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always > intrigued by > > my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other > uttered by > > some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after > bath but > > I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he > referred to > > Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had > a > > small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins, > who > > earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the > > Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was held > every > > now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing 'hare > ram > > hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna > krishna > > hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The > > important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather > classy and > > genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the > > Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have > been > > transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not have > any > > memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding the > > non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came > alive to > > me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of > Sundarkand: the > > classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different > ways > > some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed > the > > Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP > would > > want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they > will go > > mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's Khattar > Kaka. > > Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much as > they > > should! > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 02:45:06 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:15:06 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Now, let me remind the discussion here was about Delhi University. It was in Delhi University that ABVP goons (sorry for using a redundant word) So as I was saying, it was in Delhi University where ABVP raised a nonissue after losing the DUSU elections consistently to NSUI. Please enlighten us about a DU where "they (SFI and AISA) raise a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still." I am, of course, more interested in the campus being brought to stand still part of the sentence. Also kindly explain what yardsticks can be used to measure originality of a work of art. May be you can suggest which of the "two original ramayanas" should be respected more? As somebody who has read both, and many others which according to you are not original, I am intrigued by Tulsidas version where Sita has been depicted as a submissive woman, unlike Valmiki's Sita who is more capable of challenging her husband on certain issues (or non-issues, depending on which side of the divide you are). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" To: Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many political ups > and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain support > and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this goons who > keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do so they > raise > a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still. > > It is quite evident in this particular case that some left oriented > faculty > members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I mean, > everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are here talking about > a > Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book. > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few > hundred > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a > change > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > institution > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > > In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These > Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to create hype out > of this and get cheap publicity. > > They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the > religious > sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. What ABVP did > was > still peaceful. If it would have been something against Prophet Mohhamad > then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and the so > called > intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire state is sad. > I > dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it cool to be > with > communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. etc... > > God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures. > > P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email. > > Regards > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/1/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on >> Translation >> A. K. Ramanujan >> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some >> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have >> there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is >> one. >> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When >> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared >> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet. >> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me." >> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power >> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing. >> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole. >> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld. >> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from >> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The >> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat >> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with >> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do. >> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on >> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him. >> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want >> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?" >> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk." >> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are >> talking, his head should be cut off." >> "It will be done," said Rama. >> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman >> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than >> Laksmana, >> ________________________________________ >> ― 23 ― >> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to >> enter," he ordered. >> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared >> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is >> Rama?" >> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's >> important." >> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must >> go in, right now." >> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you in." >> "Go in and ask then." >> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait." >> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire >> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra. >> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this >> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things >> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die." >> So he went right in. >> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?" >> "Visvamitra is here." >> "Send him in." >> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end. >> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in >> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now >> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's >> all they wanted to say. >> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head." >> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why >> should I cut off your head?" >> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm >> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your >> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave." >> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His >> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared >> in the flowing waters. >> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers, >> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his >> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu. >> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally >> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama. >> "Rama Rama Rama . . ." >> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?" >> "Hanuman." >> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?" >> ________________________________________ >> ― 24 ― >> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it." >> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands >> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to >> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take >> it." >> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said >> Hanuman, shaking his head. >> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are >> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find >> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of >> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep >> them. Now you can go." >> So Hanuman left. >> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there >> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their >> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five >> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in >> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese, >> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri, >> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit, >> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of >> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have >> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone >> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various >> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas >> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays, >> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk >> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must >> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and >> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2] >> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred >> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth >> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata , >> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning >> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada >> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous >> previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for >> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a >> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions >> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed. >> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas >> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have >> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or >> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that >> there is an invariant, an original or >> ________________________________________ >> ― 25 ― >> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most >> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always >> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another. >> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The >> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and >> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for >> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas >> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ; >> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama), >> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of >> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki >> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and >> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the >> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to >> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be >> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different. >> Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the >> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be >> vastly different. >> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same >> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first >> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the >> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both >> narrate the story of Ahalya. >> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki >> To read more , please click: >> >> >> http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant wrote: >> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of >> the >> > violence in DU. >> > >> > Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book Many >> > Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and also >> the >> > follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas >> > >> > http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/ >> > >> > On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) >> > by RAVIKANT >> > >> > http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/ >> > >> > You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of >> vandalism and >> > the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also >> > seen >> > reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in >> Delhi >> > University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the guilty >> and >> > reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just >> because >> > ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the >> text in >> > question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and >> Three >> > Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula >> Richman: >> > Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia >> (OUP; >> > 1991.) >> > You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU over >> this >> > for something like three months. They have been trying to put pressure >> on the >> > department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite clearly >> a soft >> > target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the controversy >> to >> > kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to >> embarass >> > the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. >> The PMO >> > was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy. >> > But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of >> media >> > involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with the >> > delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus >> which >> > was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus >> making, etc. >> > So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, Rajat >> Sharma >> > of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and >> yet >> > wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others to >> debate >> > the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not >> > read >> the >> > text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept >> > highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something >> about >> > it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is not >> > a >> > surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for the >> camera >> > crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even less >> > surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played >> > the >> > footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung into >> action >> > and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging. >> > I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always >> intrigued by >> > my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other >> uttered by >> > some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after >> bath but >> > I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he >> referred to >> > Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village had >> a >> > small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of Brahmins, >> who >> > earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting the >> > Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was >> > held >> every >> > now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing 'hare >> ram >> > hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna >> krishna >> > hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. The >> > important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather >> classy and >> > genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into the >> > Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have >> been >> > transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not >> > have >> any >> > memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding >> > the >> > non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came >> alive to >> > me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of >> Sundarkand: the >> > classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different >> ways >> > some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely remixed >> the >> > Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP >> would >> > want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they >> will go >> > mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's >> > Khattar >> Kaka. >> > Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much as >> they >> > should! >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 08:55:03 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:55:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju Message-ID: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht ( Crematorium in Delhi) Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed, rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to Raju) Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead ( laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram Ram when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But how are we Ravana then. Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) Ajay: He too is Gandu Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just over there. Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich people do it, and so what is wrong with it. Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you sleep with was kidnapped once. Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time to ask all these questions. Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who fucks the kidnapped girl. Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband and God Rama. Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and think who would have come to rescue her. Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord Rama because people questioned her purity while in possession of evil Ravana. Ajay: And he really banished her? Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. This world is a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... (2) Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded artificially with a deeper question on desire. Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area. Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best is a meaningful time pass. Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the wisest of all. It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, but sooner they will cease to be. By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps, betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is that true? No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the mother-word and listen a bed time story even. So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe that God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 ( to be continued.. From prem.cnt at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 09:57:52 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:57:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few > hundred > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a > change > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > institution > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the reason why this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies that there is a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many secondary histories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior and ignorable. Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It cannot be merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief or a historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the argument that was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, rather than epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History cannot be ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be categorised as archive, or dismissed as non-archive. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 09:58:51 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:58:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <47e122a70803010633q599edd1cv71229a6345f259a5@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6353c690803022028p6ee1d179k235ecaf4a3eb77a8@mail.gmail.com> Sir, I would surely answer the first part of your question which I'm more than capable of answering. As I do that specialise in Ramayana or do not have much knowledge about it; I won't dare to challenge you on the second part. Delhi University based Political Parties which includes NSUI, ABVP, SFI etc hardly fight elections etc. on student issues or have political debates. They merely use money & muscle power and caste plays a very important role in it. Regarding your allegation that ABVP raised a nonissue after losing the DUSU Elections; let me enligten you more on the game being played by NSUI with help of their masters. 1. In 2007, DUSU Elections suddenly a couple of days back Lyndoh Committe Report was forced on to the University which was notproper or legally or morally right. It was quite evident that it was pre-planned and some University authority had played misschief. After all money and power makes all the difference. The only party which suffered because of this was ABVP; thus making ahuge victory for NSUI whose candidates are no less goons. 2. In last 3 months these have been instances where NSUI has been involved with improper behaviour which should have called on them some Police action. But their masters protected them always. Amrita Bahari the President of DUSU currently slapped an IAS ranking Police Inspector; threw his cap in air and tore his uniform and the stars on it; in protest of some case. Was any action taken against Amrita ? DUSU Vice-President Devraj Tehlan was involved with beating the principal of Shivaji College and PG-DAV College in last one month and also damaging public property. Why again the authorities kept silent ? 3. In 2007 DUSU Elections again, there was sting operation conducted by CNN-IBN on Devraj Tehlan where he was shown drunk and he was narrating what all ill methods are used to get votes in DU. He was still allowed to contest and he came in power finally. The University and Police both kept mum. 4. Now, le me come to your SFI and AISA. As AISA is hardly seen around campus, I wouldn't like commenting much on them. They hardly work; rather they are more than happy only in screaming and pasting posters across university. 5. In recent DU History Dept fiasco; the day after the incident; there was a protest taken out by the left lobby in the campus. The classes of History, Political Science and English mainly were disrupted in many colleges across the University. I atleast know of Hansraj College, Ramjas College, Hindu College, St. Stephens and a few more whose teachers just didn't take the class and literally forced students to take part in the protest without understanding the issue in greater length. It surely brough the campus to stand still. I could surely witness that. 6. A few months back everbody must be aware of the much hyped IP Molestation Case which shook the entire University. A large protest (one of the largest in DU History) was taken out by some NGO's, students and IP College; almost 2000 people participated in it. Just a day after this the SFI lobby was at its job; they brainwashed the IP Students against all the NGO's and even the media. Strangely, IP Union members stopped talking to the media and the NGO's. SFI again wanted cheap publicity out of it; but results are in front of us; the case is still on; SFI failed to get justice or even raise awareness in the case. They rather again forced students to miss important classes. 7. There are delibrate attempts made at various points to distort history for the sake of those few Anti-Hindu's. Lets atleast not create a religious divide in the campus. Students should be given a neutral perspective and not favouring a particular side. Let them decide what is right and wrong. I know very well how the senior faculty members ask students to just stay away from a particular religious ideology and they channelise their energies towards anti-establishment work. Though till date these so called TEACHERS haven't been successful; its surely a dangereous trend. I'm not a part of ABVP, NSUI or SFI; I neither support them. All three of them have goons in it making the atmosphere of Delhi University unhealthy. I had tried by bit by initiating a group United Students back in 2006. You may learn more about it on www.unitedstudents.in I don't think I've much to say now. Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > Now, let me remind the discussion here was about Delhi University. It was > in > Delhi University that ABVP goons (sorry for using a redundant word) So as > I > was saying, it was in Delhi University where ABVP raised a nonissue after > losing the DUSU elections consistently to NSUI. > Please enlighten us about a DU where "they (SFI and AISA) raise a > non-issue > so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still." I am, of course, > more interested in the campus being brought to stand still part of the > sentence. > > Also kindly explain what yardsticks can be used to measure originality of > a > work of art. May be you can suggest which of the "two original ramayanas" > should be respected more? As somebody who has read both, and many others > which according to you are not original, I am intrigued by Tulsidas > version > where Sita has been depicted as a submissive woman, unlike Valmiki's Sita > who is more capable of challenging her husband on certain issues (or > non-issues, depending on which side of the divide you are). > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:26 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many political > ups > > and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain > support > > and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this goons who > > keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do so they > > raise > > a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still. > > > > It is quite evident in this particular case that some left oriented > > faculty > > members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I mean, > > everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are here talking > about > > a > > Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book. > > > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's that we > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few > > hundred > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets for a > > change > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > > institution > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > > > > In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These > > Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to create hype > out > > of this and get cheap publicity. > > > > They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the > > religious > > sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. What ABVP did > > was > > still peaceful. If it would have been something against Prophet Mohhamad > > then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and the so > > called > > intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire state is > sad. > > I > > dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it cool to be > > with > > communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. etc... > > > > God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures. > > > > P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email. > > > > Regards > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On 3/1/08, inder salim wrote: > >> > >> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on > >> Translation > >> A. K. Ramanujan > >> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the end of some > >> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas have > >> there been? And there are stories that answer the question. Here is > >> one. > >> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell off. When > >> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and disappeared > >> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, Hanuman, was at his feet. > >> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me." > >> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had the power > >> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the largest thing. > >> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole. > >> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld. > >> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's fallen from > >> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter (thali ). The > >> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes to eat > >> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, along with > >> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do. > >> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his throne on > >> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to see him. > >> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We don't want > >> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?" > >> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk." > >> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are > >> talking, his head should be cut off." > >> "It will be done," said Rama. > >> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? Hanuman > >> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one more than > >> Laksmana, > >> ________________________________________ > >> ― 23 ― > >> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow anyone to > >> enter," he ordered. > >> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra appeared > >> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. Tell me, where is > >> Rama?" > >> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some people. It's > >> important." > >> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said Visvamitra. "I must > >> go in, right now." > >> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can let you > in." > >> "Go in and ask then." > >> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait." > >> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the entire > >> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra. > >> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't go, this > >> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, all things > >> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die." > >> So he went right in. > >> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?" > >> "Visvamitra is here." > >> "Send him in." > >> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to an end. > >> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, "Your work in > >> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama must now > >> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." That's > >> all they wanted to say. > >> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head." > >> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was left. So why > >> should I cut off your head?" > >> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off because I'm > >> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't spare your > >> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will leave." > >> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom Visnu sleeps. His > >> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and disappeared > >> in the flowing waters. > >> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his followers, > >> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for the coronation of his > >> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu. > >> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was finally > >> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the name of Rama. > >> "Rama Rama Rama . . ." > >> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?" > >> "Hanuman." > >> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?" > >> ________________________________________ > >> ― 24 ― > >> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it." > >> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were thousands > >> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king brought the platter to > >> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring and take > >> it." > >> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it is," said > >> Hanuman, shaking his head. > >> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as there are > >> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not find > >> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an incarnation of > >> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them and keep > >> them. Now you can go." > >> So Hanuman left. > >> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such Rama there > >> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their > >> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five > >> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of languages in > >> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese, > >> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri, > >> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit, > >> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say nothing of > >> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these languages have > >> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone > >> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various > >> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic compositions, puranas > >> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays, > >> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical and folk > >> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To these must > >> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and > >> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian cultures.[2] > >> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , counted three hundred > >> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the fourteenth > >> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to write a Mahabharata , > >> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth groaning > >> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu phaniraya ramayanada > >> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to numerous > >> previous translators and scholars, I would like to sort out for > >> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings of a > >> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions > >> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, transposed. > >> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas > >> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one another. I have > >> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or > >> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that > >> there is an invariant, an original or > >> ________________________________________ > >> ― 25 ― > >> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest and most > >> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always > >> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another. > >> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The > >> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story (ramakatha ) and > >> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or Krttivasa, for > >> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas > >> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title Ramayana ; > >> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of Rama), > >> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien (The Story of > >> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told by Valmiki > >> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and > >> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit , or the > >> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also analogous to > >> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The story may be > >> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly different. > >> Even the structure and sequence of events may be the same, but the > >> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the import―may be > >> vastly different. > >> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at the same > >> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the first > >> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the second from the > >> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both > >> narrate the story of Ahalya. > >> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki > >> To read more , please click: > >> > >> > >> > http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant wrote: > >> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as it had images of > >> the > >> > violence in DU. > >> > > >> > Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the entire book > Many > >> > Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful read, and > also > >> the > >> > follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas > >> > > >> > http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/ > >> > > >> > On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) > >> > by RAVIKANT > >> > > >> > http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/ > >> > > >> > You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the act of > >> vandalism and > >> > the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must have also > >> > seen > >> > reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration yesterday in > >> Delhi > >> > University of students and teachers demanding punishment to the > guilty > >> and > >> > reiterating the pledge that the text should not be expunged just > >> because > >> > ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to look up, the > >> text in > >> > question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples > and > >> Three > >> > Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited by Paula > >> Richman: > >> > Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in South Asia > >> (OUP; > >> > 1991.) > >> > You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger strike in DU > over > >> this > >> > for something like three months. They have been trying to put > pressure > >> on the > >> > department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite > clearly > >> a soft > >> > target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the > controversy > >> to > >> > kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would be able to > >> embarass > >> > the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his daughter. > >> The PMO > >> > was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU controversy. > >> > But beyond these bare facts, the most interesting story is that of > >> media > >> > involvement in the incident. After several rounds of meetings with > the > >> > delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw the syllabus > >> which > >> > was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the syllabus > >> making, etc. > >> > So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 days ago, > Rajat > >> Sharma > >> > of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and ideas and > >> yet > >> > wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar and others > to > >> debate > >> > the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb had not > >> > read > >> the > >> > text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat Sharma kept > >> > highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do something > >> about > >> > it. On which he assured that he would look into the matter. It is > not > >> > a > >> > surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on waiting for > the > >> camera > >> > crew to arrive before they staged action the day before and even > less > >> > surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV that played > >> > the > >> > footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels swung > into > >> action > >> > and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging. > >> > I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be always > >> intrigued by > >> > my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or the other > >> uttered by > >> > some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas everyday after > >> bath but > >> > I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each time he > >> referred to > >> > Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our village > had > >> a > >> > small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of > Brahmins, > >> who > >> > earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and assisting > the > >> > Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand Kirtan was > >> > held > >> every > >> > now and then in the village temple and groups took turns singing > 'hare > >> ram > >> > hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna krishna > >> krishna > >> > hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a few days. > The > >> > important thing to note is that the upper caste group had a rather > >> classy and > >> > genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people got into > the > >> > Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti seemed to have > >> been > >> > transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, I do not > >> > have > >> any > >> > memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or forbidding > >> > the > >> > non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these memories came > >> alive to > >> > me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of > >> Sundarkand: the > >> > classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 different > >> ways > >> > some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely > remixed > >> the > >> > Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder what the ABVP > >> would > >> > want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am sure they > >> will go > >> > mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan Jha's > >> > Khattar > >> Kaka. > >> > Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read as much > as > >> they > >> > should! > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 10:10:30 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:10:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History Message-ID: <98f331e00803022040n47e4c09cvf24accb417c88742@mail.gmail.com> I would like to thank Ravikant for informing us regarding the availablity of the essay by Dr Ramanujan on the net along with the wonderful book in which the essay is collected. I suggest to mail the link to people at large. Prakash From mrsg at vsnl.com Mon Mar 3 13:03:12 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:03:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. ----- Original Message ----- From: "inder salim" To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht ( > Crematorium in Delhi) > > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram > > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. > > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed, > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. > > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . > > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to > Raju) > > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead ( > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram > Ram > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. > > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But > how are we Ravana then. > > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) > > Ajay: He too is Gandu > > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. > > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. > > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just > over there. > > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. > > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you > sleep with was kidnapped once. > > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time > to ask > all these questions. > > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who > fucks the kidnapped girl. > > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband > and God > Rama. > > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and > think who would have come to rescue her. > > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. > > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord > Rama because people questioned her purity while in > possession of evil > Ravana. > > Ajay: And he really banished her? > > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. > > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. > > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita > > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. > This world is > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. > > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... > > (2) > > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded > artificially with a deeper question on desire. > > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area. > > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. > > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best > is a meaningful time pass. > > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the > wisest of all. > > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, > but sooner they will cease to be. > > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the > stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps, > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is > that true? > > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. > > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe that > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 > > ( to be continued.. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Mar 3 14:29:12 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:59:12 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <6353c690803022028p6ee1d179k235ecaf4a3eb77a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <"e3 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com> <"6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193 757779ec0"@mail.gmail.com> <011101c87caa$818f5d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803022028p6ee1d179k235ecaf4a3eb77a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, this message should reply all those queries about the political parties making bad use of students who are there to study for their life, being used for the gains of the politics. ? None of the political parties can take a morally holier than thou stand in this matter. Only issue here is it has become a fashionable issue to deride the faith of majority, see that this majority is kept always divided so that anti socials can have rule on majority with minority of goons. ? Regards, ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya Raj Kaul Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 10:00 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sir, I would surely answer the first part of your question which > I'm more > than capable of answering. As I do that specialise in Ramayana or > do not > have much knowledge about it; I won't dare to challenge you on the > secondpart. > > Delhi University based Political Parties which includes NSUI, > ABVP, SFI etc > hardly fight elections etc. on student issues or have political > debates.They merely use money & muscle power and caste plays a > very important role > in it. > > Regarding your allegation that ABVP raised a nonissue after losing > the DUSU > Elections; let me enligten you more on the game being played by > NSUI with > help of their masters. > > 1. In 2007, DUSU Elections suddenly a couple of days back Lyndoh > CommitteReport was forced on to the University which was notproper > or legally or > morally right. It was quite evident that it was pre-planned and some > University authority had played misschief. After all money and > power makes > all the difference. The only party which suffered because of this > was ABVP; > thus making ahuge victory for NSUI whose candidates are no less goons. > > 2. In last 3 months these have been instances where NSUI has been > involvedwith improper behaviour which should have called on them > some Police action. > But their masters protected them always. Amrita Bahari the > President of DUSU > currently slapped an IAS ranking Police Inspector; threw his cap > in air and > tore his uniform and the stars on it; in protest of some case. Was any > action taken against Amrita ? DUSU Vice-President Devraj Tehlan > was involved > with beating the principal of Shivaji College and PG-DAV College > in last one > month and also damaging public property. Why again the authorities > keptsilent ? > > 3. In 2007 DUSU Elections again, there was sting operation > conducted by > CNN-IBN on Devraj Tehlan where he was shown drunk and he was > narrating what > all ill methods are used to get votes in DU. He was still allowed > to contest > and he came in power finally. The University and Police both kept mum. > > 4. Now, le me come to your SFI and AISA. As AISA is hardly seen around > campus, I wouldn't like commenting much on them. They hardly work; > ratherthey are more than happy only in screaming and pasting > posters across > university. > > 5. In recent DU History Dept fiasco; the day after the incident; > there was a > protest taken out by the left lobby in the campus. The classes of > History,Political Science and English mainly were disrupted in > many colleges across > the University. I atleast know of Hansraj College, Ramjas College, > HinduCollege, St. Stephens and a few more whose teachers just > didn't take the > class and literally forced students to take part in the protest > withoutunderstanding the issue in greater length. It surely brough > the campus to > stand still. I could surely witness that. > > 6. A few months back everbody must be aware of the much hyped IP > MolestationCase which shook the entire University. A large protest > (one of the largest > in DU History) was taken out by some NGO's, students and IP > College; almost > 2000 people participated in it. Just a day after this the SFI > lobby was at > its job; they brainwashed the IP Students against all the NGO's > and even the > media. Strangely, IP Union members stopped talking to the media > and the > NGO's. SFI again wanted cheap publicity out of it; but results are > in front > of us; the case is still on; SFI failed to get justice or even raise > awareness in the case. They rather again forced students to miss > importantclasses. > > 7. There are delibrate attempts made at various points to distort > historyfor the sake of those few Anti-Hindu's. Lets atleast not > create a religious > divide in the campus. Students should be given a neutral > perspective and not > favouring a particular side. Let them decide what is right and > wrong. I know > very well how the senior faculty members ask students to just stay > away from > a particular religious ideology and they channelise their energies > towardsanti-establishment work. Though till date these so called > TEACHERS haven't > been successful; its surely a dangereous trend. > > I'm not a part of ABVP, NSUI or SFI; I neither support them. All > three of > them have goons in it making the atmosphere of Delhi University > unhealthy. I > had tried by bit by initiating a group United Students back in > 2006. You may > learn more about it on www.unitedstudents.in > > I don't think I've much to say now. > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > Now, let me remind the discussion here was about Delhi > University. It was > > in > > Delhi University that ABVP goons (sorry for using a redundant > word) So as > > I > > was saying, it was in Delhi University where ABVP raised a > nonissue after > > losing the DUSU elections consistently to NSUI. > > Please enlighten us about a DU where "they (SFI and AISA) raise a > > non-issue > > so that the normal life in campus comes to stand still." I am, > of course, > > more interested in the campus being brought to stand still part > of the > > sentence. > > > > Also kindly explain what yardsticks can be used to measure > originality of > > a > > work of art. May be you can suggest which of the "two original > ramayanas"> should be respected more? As somebody who has read > both, and many others > > which according to you are not original, I am intrigued by Tulsidas > > version > > where Sita has been depicted as a submissive woman, unlike > Valmiki's Sita > > who is more capable of challenging her husband on certain issues (or > > non-issues, depending on which side of the divide you are). > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > > > > As I've been in DU for past many years; I'm witness to many > political> ups > > > and downs. The left oriented parties have miserebly failed to gain > > support > > > and lead any campaign. The SFI and AISA in particular and this > goons who > > > keep screaminf Inqulab and Lal Salam don't have anything to do > so they > > > raise > > > a non-issue so that the normal life in campus comes to stand > still.> > > > > It is quite evident in this particular case that some left > oriented> > faculty > > > members are playing mischief with hostory and distorting it. I > mean,> > everybody is entitled to his or her opinion; but we are > here talking > > about > > > a > > > Text Book. Kindly note this; its not just another book. > > > > > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's > that we > > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe > a few > > > hundred > > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, > lets for a > > > change > > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > > > institution > > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > > > > > > In Delhi University, Communists are not looked with respect. These > > > Jhoolawaalahs hence this time have found an opportunity to > create hype > > out > > > of this and get cheap publicity. > > > > > > They have ofcourse failed. One cannot easily play around with the > > > religious > > > sentiments of a particular community and then be rewarded. > What ABVP did > > > was > > > still peaceful. If it would have been something against > Prophet Mohhamad > > > then riots would have been initiated by the same Leftists and > the so > > > called > > > intellectuals at SARAI would have jumped in too. The entire > state is > > sad. > > > I > > > dodn't understand why these days a certain section finds it > cool to be > > > with > > > communists. Maybe just because of easy publicity, money, fame. > etc...> > > > > God help these directionless problimatic identiless creatures. > > > > > > P.S. - Mr. Inder Ticku "Salim" thanks for your elaborate email. > > > > > > Regards > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > On 3/1/08, inder salim wrote: > > >> > > >> Two Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on > > >> Translation > > >> A. K. Ramanujan > > >> How many Ramayanas ? Three hundred? Three thousand? At the > end of some > > >> Ramayanas , a question is sometimes asked: How many Ramayanas > have> >> there been? And there are stories that answer the > question. Here is > > >> one. > > >> One day when Rama was sitting on his throne, his ring fell > off. When > > >> it touched the earth, it made a hole in the ground and > disappeared> >> into it. It was gone. His trusty henchman, > Hanuman, was at his feet. > > >> Rama said to Hanuman, "Look, my ring is lost. Find it for me." > > >> Now Hanuman can enter any hole, no matter how tiny. He had > the power > > >> to become the smallest of the small and larger than the > largest thing. > > >> So he took on a tiny form and went down the hole. > > >> He went and went and went and suddenly fell into the netherworld. > > >> There were women down there. "Look, a tiny monkey! It's > fallen from > > >> above? Then they caught him and placed him on a platter > (thali ). The > > >> King of Spirits (bhut ), who lives in the netherworld, likes > to eat > > >> animals. So Hanuman was sent to him as part of his dinner, > along with > > >> his vegetables. Hanuman sat on the platter, wondering what to do. > > >> While this was going on in the netherworld, Rama sat on his > throne on > > >> the earth above. The sage Vasistha and the god Brahma came to > see him. > > >> They said to Rama, "We want to talk privately with you. We > don't want > > >> anyone to hear what we say or interrupt it. Do we agree?" > > >> "All right," said Rama, "we'll talk." > > >> Then they said, "Lay down a rule. If anyone comes in as we are > > >> talking, his head should be cut off." > > >> "It will be done," said Rama. > > >> Who would be the most trustworthy person to guard the door? > Hanuman> >> had gone down to fetch the ring. Rama trusted no one > more than > > >> Laksmana, > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> ― 23 ― > > >> so he asked Laksmana to stand by the door. "Don't allow > anyone to > > >> enter," he ordered. > > >> Laksmana was standing at the door when the sage Visvamitra > appeared> >> and said, "I need to see Rama at once. It's urgent. > Tell me, where is > > >> Rama?" > > >> Laksmana said, "Don't go in now. He is talking to some > people. It's > > >> important." > > >> "What is there that Rama would hide from me?" said > Visvamitra. "I must > > >> go in, right now." > > >> Laksmana said, "I'11 have to ask his permission before I can > let you > > in." > > >> "Go in and ask then." > > >> "I can't go in till Rama comes out. You'll have to wait." > > >> "If you don't go in and announce my presence, I'll burn the > entire> >> kingdom of Ayodhya with a curse," said Visvamitra. > > >> Laksmana thought, "If I go in now, I'll die. But if I don't > go, this > > >> hotheaded man will burn down the kingdom. All the subjects, > all things > > >> living in it, will die. It's better that I alone should die." > > >> So he went right in. > > >> Rama asked him, "What's the matter?" > > >> "Visvamitra is here." > > >> =22Send him in." > > >> So Visvamitra went in. The private talk had already come to > an end. > > >> Brahma and Vasistha had come to see Rama and say to him, > "Your work in > > >> the world of human beings is over. Your incarnation as Rama > must now > > >> he given up. Leave this body, come up, and rejoin the gods." > That's> >> all they wanted to say. > > >> Laksmana said to Rama, "Brother, you should cut off my head." > > >> Rama said, "Why? We had nothing more to say. Nothing was > left. So why > > >> should I cut off your head?" > > >> Laksmana said, "You can't do that. You can't let me off > because I'm > > >> your brother. There'll be a blot on Rama's name. You didn't > spare your > > >> wife. You sent her to the jungle. I must be punished. I will > leave."> >> Laksmana was an avatar of Sesa, the serpent on whom > Visnu sleeps. His > > >> time was up too. He went directly to the river Sarayu and > disappeared> >> in the flowing waters. > > >> When Laksmana relinquished his body, Rama summoned all his > followers,> >> Vibhisana, Sugriva, and others, and arranged for > the coronation of his > > >> twin sons, Lava and Kusa. Then Rama too entered the river Sarayu. > > >> All this while, Hanuman was in the netherworld. When he was > finally> >> taken to the King of Spirits, he kept repeating the > name of Rama. > > >> "Rama Rama Rama . . ." > > >> Then the King of Spirits asked, "Who are you?" > > >> "Hanuman." > > >> "Hanuman? Why have you come here?" > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> ― 24 ― > > >> "Rama's ring fell into a hole. I've come to fetch it." > > >> The king looked around and showed him a platter. On it were > thousands> >> of rings. They were all Rama's rings. The king > brought the platter to > > >> Hanuman, set it down, and said, "Pick out your Rama's ring > and take > > >> it." > > >> They were all exactly the same. "I don't know which one it > is," said > > >> Hanuman, shaking his head. > > >> The King of Spirits said, "There have been as many Ramas as > there are > > >> rings on this platter. When you return to earth, you will not > find> >> Rama. This incarnation of Rama is now over. Whenever an > incarnation of > > >> Rama is about to be over, his ring falls down. I collect them > and keep > > >> them. Now you can go." > > >> So Hanuman left. > > >> This story is usually told to suggest that for every such > Rama there > > >> is a Ramayana .[1] The number of Ramayanas and the range of their > > >> influence in South and Southeast Asia over the past twenty-five > > >> hundred years or more are astonishing. Just a list of > languages in > > >> which the Rama story is found makes one gasp: Annamese, Balinese, > > >> Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, > Kashmiri,> >> Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, > Prakrit, Sanskrit, > > >> Santali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan―to say > nothing of > > >> Western languages. Through the centuries, some of these > languages have > > >> hosted more than one telling of the Rama story. Sanskrit alone > > >> contains some twenty-five or more tellings belonging to various > > >> narrative genres (epics, kavyas or ornate poetic > compositions, puranas > > >> or old mythological stories, and so forth). If we add plays, > > >> dance-dramas, and other performances, in both the classical > and folk > > >> traditions, the number of Ramayanas grows even larger. To > these must > > >> be added sculpture and bas-reliefs, mask plays, puppet plays and > > >> shadow plays, in all the many South and Southeast Asian > cultures.[2]> >> Camille Bulcke, a student of the Ramayana , > counted three hundred > > >> tellings.[3] It's no wonder that even as long ago as the > fourteenth> >> century, Kumaravyasa, a Kannada poet, chose to > write a Mahabharata , > > >> because he heard the cosmic serpent which upholds the earth > groaning> >> under the burden of Ramayana poets ( tinikidanu > phaniraya ramayanada > > >> kavigala bharadali ). In this paper, indebted for its data to > numerous> >> previous translators and scholars, I would like to > sort out for > > >> myself, and I hope for others, how these hundreds of tellings > of a > > >> story in different cultures, languages, and religious traditions > > >> relate to each other: what gets translated, transplanted, > transposed.> >> Valmiki and Kampan: Two Ahalyas > > >> Obviously, these hundreds of tellings differ from one > another. I have > > >> come to prefer the word tellings to the usual terms versions or > > >> variants because the latter terms can and typically do imply that > > >> there is an invariant, an original or > > >> ________________________________________ > > >> ― 25 ― > > >> Ur -text―usually Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana , the earliest > and most > > >> prestigious of them all. But as we shall see, it is not always > > >> Valmiki's narrative that is carried from one language to another. > > >> It would be useful to make some distinctions before we begin. The > > >> tradition itself distinguishes between the Rama story > (ramakatha ) and > > >> texts composed by a specific person―Valmiki, Kampan, or > Krttivasa, for > > >> example. Though many of the latter are popularly called Ramayanas > > >> (like Kamparamayanam ), few texts actually bear the title > Ramayana ; > > >> they are given titles like Iramavataram (The Incarnation of > Rama),> >> Ramcaritmanas (The Lake of the Acts of Rama), Ramakien > (The Story of > > >> Rama), and so on. Their relations to the Rama story as told > by Valmiki > > >> also vary. This traditional distinction between katha (story) and > > >> kavya (poem) parallels the French one between sujet and recit > , or the > > >> English one between story and discourse.[4] It is also > analogous to > > >> the distinction between a sentence and a speech act. The > story may be > > >> the same in two tellings, but the discourse may be vastly > different.> >> Even the structure and sequence of events may be > the same, but the > > >> style, details, tone, and texture―and therefore the > import―may be > > >> vastly different. > > >> Here are two tellings of the "same" episode, which occur at > the same > > >> point in the sequence of the narrative. The first is from the > first> >> book (Balakanda ) of Valmiki's Sanskrit Ramayana ; the > second from the > > >> first canto (Palakantam ) of Kampan's Iramavataram in Tamil. Both > > >> narrate the story of Ahalya. > > >> The Ahalya Episode: Valmiki > > >> To read more , please click: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft3j49n8h7&chunk.id=d0e1254&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1254&brand=eschol> >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Ravikant > wrote:> >> > This post of mine was rejected by the reader list as > it had images of > > >> the > > >> > violence in DU. > > >> > > > >> > Says Lawrence, incidentally for those interested, the > entire book > > Many > > >> > Ramayanas is available online for free and a delightful > read, and > > also > > >> the > > >> > follow up book, Questioning Ramayanas > > >> > > > >> > http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft3j49n8h7/ > > >> > > > >> > On many Ramayanas: (posted on 27 Feb, 2008) > > >> > by RAVIKANT > > >> > > > >> > http://www.kafila.org/2008/02/27/on-many-ramayanas/ > > >> > > > >> > You may have seen the edit in today's HT condemning the > act of > > >> vandalism and > > >> > the news of the arrest of three ABVP activists. You must > have also > > >> > seen > > >> > reports in today's newspapers about the demonstration > yesterday in > > >> Delhi > > >> > University of students and teachers demanding punishment > to the > > guilty > > >> and > > >> > reiterating the pledge that the text should not be > expunged just > > >> because > > >> > ABVP/BJP finds it objectionable. For those who want to > look up, the > > >> text in > > >> > question is A K Ramanujan's Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five > Examples> and > > >> Three > > >> > Thoughts on Translation, also available in a volume edited > by Paula > > >> Richman: > > >> > Many Ramayanas: The Diversity of a Narrative Tradition in > South Asia > > >> (OUP; > > >> > 1991.) > > >> > You see the ABVP has been sitting on a dharna/hunger > strike in DU > > over > > >> this > > >> > for something like three months. They have been trying to put > > pressure > > >> on the > > >> > department which is currently headed by Prof. SZH Jafry, quite > > clearly > > >> a soft > > >> > target. Dr. Upinder Singh's name was also dragged into the > > controversy > > >> to > > >> > kill two birds with one stone: The ABVP thought it would > be able to > > >> embarass > > >> > the Prime Minister as well, as Dr. Singh happens to be his > daughter.> >> The PMO > > >> > was quick to deny having got anything to do with the DU > controversy.> >> > But beyond these bare facts, the most > interesting story is that of > > >> media > > >> > involvement in the incident. After several rounds of > meetings with > > the > > >> > delegates, the department was not convinced to withdraw > the syllabus > > >> which > > >> > was duly passed by the academic bodies in charge of the > syllabus> >> making, etc. > > >> > So the ABVP decided to do something dramatic. About 10 > days ago, > > Rajat > > >> Sharma > > >> > of India TV shame ― which I think lacks both resources and > ideas and > > >> yet > > >> > wants to stay up in the ratings ― roped in Vinay Katiyar > and others > > to > > >> debate > > >> > the issue on Prime Time. It was obvious that Katiyar Saheb > had not > > >> > read > > >> the > > >> > text and looked rather unwilling to comment. But Rajat > Sharma kept > > >> > highlighting the text out of context and goading him to do > something> >> about > > >> > it. On which he assured that he would look into the > matter. It is > > not > > >> > a > > >> > surprise therefore that the ABVP activists insisted on > waiting for > > the > > >> camera > > >> > crew to arrive before they staged action the day before > and even > > less > > >> > surprising was the fact that once again it was India TV > that played > > >> > the > > >> > footage big time. By yesterday of course other TV channels > swung> into > > >> action > > >> > and now a diversity of voices seems to be emerging. > > >> > I want to end this with a personal anecdote. I used to be > always> >> intrigued by > > >> > my grandfather quoting or paraphrasing some reference or > the other > > >> uttered by > > >> > some Gosain ji. He read, rather sang, Ramcharitmanas > everyday after > > >> bath but > > >> > I could not imagine it is Goswami Tulsidas he meant each > time he > > >> referred to > > >> > Gosain ji. My confusion also flowed from the fact that our > village> had > > >> a > > >> > small but respectable population of the Gosain sub-caste of > > Brahmins, > > >> who > > >> > earned their living by practising Ayurvedic medicine and > assisting> the > > >> > Brahmin priests at rituals. I also remember that Akhand > Kirtan was > > >> > held > > >> every > > >> > now and then in the village temple and groups took turns > singing> 'hare > > >> ram > > >> > hare ram ram ram ram hare hare, hare krishna hare krishna > krishna> >> krishna > > >> > hare hare' so that recital chain remained unbroken for a > few days. > > The > > >> > important thing to note is that the upper caste group had > a rather > > >> classy and > > >> > genteel style of singing, but when the other caste people > got into > > the > > >> > Mandap, it came alive with robust enthusiasm: bhakti > seemed to have > > >> been > > >> > transformed into a certain charismatic euphoria. However, > I do not > > >> > have > > >> any > > >> > memories of upper castes either questioning, tutoring or > forbidding> >> > the > > >> > non-upper castes to sing the way they did. All these > memories came > > >> alive to > > >> > me recently when I listened to Chhannulal Mishra's recital of > > >> Sundarkand: the > > >> > classically trained Banaras artist rendered the Manas in 5 > different> >> ways > > >> > some of which was clearly regional and folksy. He also freely > > remixed > > >> the > > >> > Manas with local take-offs on the same theme. I wonder > what the ABVP > > >> would > > >> > want to do to these obviously pre-Hindutva practices. I am > sure they > > >> will go > > >> > mad if they read something like Maithili writer Harimohan > Jha's> >> > Khattar > > >> Kaka. > > >> > Even if I want them to, I am in a way glad they don't read > as much > > as > > >> they > > >> > should! > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _____=5F___________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Mar 3 14:31:58 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:01:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <"e3 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places of learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism at work. ! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Prem Chandavarkar Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's > that we > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few > > hundred > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets > for a > > change > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > > institution > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > > > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > reason why > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > that there is > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior > and ignorable. > > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It > cannot be > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief > or a > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. > > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > rather than > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History > cannot be > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > categorised as > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:08:42 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:08:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com> Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has decided to launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left lazy and violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students studies which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity seekers wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges ** *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 * ** *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on Lord Ram in its history text books, activists said.' Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to take action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S Z H Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, whose name is printed on the book as the compiler. "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North Campus today. >From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two colleges each day to seek support from principals and students for a college-wise demonstration. Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said that though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were only five people in the building during the violence. "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the History Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed. Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if Upinder Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, "what took her so long to deny charges". "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She could have corrected the mistake any time," she said. On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in > their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does > freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places of > learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu > faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism at > work. ! > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Prem Chandavarkar > Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: Aditya Raj Kaul > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's > > that we > > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few > > > hundred > > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets > > for a > > > change > > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > > > institution > > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > > > > > > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > > reason why > > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > > that there is > > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many > > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior > > and ignorable. > > > > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and > > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It > > cannot be > > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief > > or a > > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the > > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. > > > > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put > > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > > rather than > > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History > > cannot be > > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > > categorised as > > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > From vivek at sarai.net Mon Mar 3 16:58:54 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:58:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Almost Island Dialogues 2: March 6-9, New Delhi Message-ID: <79705fb50803030328k5257200en12fa7661ef192ec7@mail.gmail.com> Incidentally, much of Claudio Magris' work, including Danube, his best-known book, amounts to subtle, lyrical, beautiful and ultimately thorough assault on naive and regressive nationalisms: "Identity is a quest that is always open, while the obsessive defence of one's origins can at times be as much a form of regressive slavery as, in other circumstances, is willing submission to displacement..." "As Bloch has written, the non-contemporaneousness which divides the feelings and habits of individuals and of social classes is one of the keys to history and politics. It seems to us impossible that what for us is still an arduous present is for our children already an irrevocable, unknown past. Everyone, looked at in this way, is both victim and culprit in the matter of lack of understanding. Anyone ten or fifteen years younger than I am cannot understand that the Istrian exodus after the Second World War is for me part of the present, just as I cannot really and truly understand that for him the dates 1968, 1977 and 1981 are milestones marking off different epochs; periods that for me are superimposed in spite of their considerable differences, like the swaying grasses on a plain..." [Claudio Magris - Danube] ALMOST ISLAND: DIALOGUES 2 MARCH 6TH TO 9TH 2008: INDIA INTERNATIONAL CENTRE, DELHI Almost Island is a new online literary magazine based in India, but international in scope. We have been trying to slowly unfold and discover a specific kind of intervention in the Indian context: we conceive of and believe in poetry and prose on an equal footing, are interested in and open to (but certainly not simplistically beholden to) the idea of global literary avant-gardes and, more generally, literature of a philosophical nature. We are not afraid of difficulty, complexity, or seriousness, and we're certainly not afraid of the effects and legacy of more than a century of literary modernism! Part of this agenda is also to foster a higher and more intense level of literary engagement at the local level by bringing major voices from around the world in contact with Indian writers. The idea here is not so much to be absorbed into the making of literary celebrity, or to make a festival of India's supposed arrival on the world stage, but to listen closely and to find ways to think through literature as practicing writers and not as academics, without, on the other hand, "dumbing down". This year the conference will extend from the evening of 6th March 2008 to the evening of 9th March 2008, at the India International Centre (IIC), Delhi. There will be readings each evening, including a rudraveena concert by Bahauddin Dagar on the night of 6th March. During the day, there will be extended discussions and talks. The evening readings, from Thursday 6th to Sunday 9th March are open to all. The day sessions are also open to all interested participants, but **please note that we can only provide lunch for a limited number of participants who have pre-registered**. If you have any questions or clarifications, please contact Kavita Bhanot at 9871716994 / bhanot.kavita at gmail.com. Please find a detailed programme below: 1) bios of panelists / readers; 2) schedule of evening readings; and 3) details of the day sessions. *1. PANELISTS AND READERS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2* Bei Dao* is considered the most notable of the "misty poets", a group pf Chinese poets who opposed the restrictions of the Cultural Revolution; his oblique verses were memorized by students and chanted at Tiananmen Square, and as a result he went into in exile from China from 1989 to 2006, when he was allowed to return to Hong Kong, where he is currently based. Despite his fame and the political circumstances of his life, he has continued to write a poetry that is both formally experimental and insistently difficult, responding to politics in hidden ways, influenced by the work of Paul Celan. He is also the editor in chief of the influential Chinese literary journal, Jintian. He has won numerous awards and has been nominated several times for the Nobel Prize in Literature. *Nabaneeta Dev Sen* is one of Bengal's leading writers. She is the author of over fifteen novels, three books of poetry, children's books, plays and translations. Her two recent novels are *Dwiragaman* and *Ramdhan Mittir Lane*. Her most recent collection of poetry is *Shreshtha Kabita*. In 2000 she was awarded the Padma Shri for her contribution to Literature. She has been for many years, a Professor of Comparative Literature at Jadavpur University in Kolkata. *Claudio Magris* is the author of the novels *A Different Sea* and *Inferences from a Sabre*, along with scholarly works on Austrian and Central European literature. In the English speaking world, he is known principally as the author of two books, *Danube* (a journey from the source to the mouth of the river) and *Microcosms*, densely allusive literary journeys that seem to take the genre of "travelogue" into a class of their own. Magris teaches German literature at the University in Trieste and has been for many years a columnist for the Italian daily Corriere Della Sera. He has been awarded several prizes, among them the Strega Prize and the Erasmus Prize, and has also been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature. *Allan Sealy* is the author of several acclaimed novels including *The Trotter Nama*, *The Everest Hotel*, *The Brainfever Bird* and *Red*. He was awarded the Commonwealth Prize for *The Trotter Nama* and is a recipient of the Sahitya Akademi Award. *George Szirtes* is one of England's leading poets as well as the translator of several works from the Hungarian, including novels by Sandor Marai and Lazlo Krasznakorkai. He has over fifteen collections of poetry, the most recent being *An English Apocalypse* and *Reel*, which won the T.S. Eliot prize, Britain's highest honour for a single book of poetry, in 2005. He currently teaches Creative Writing at the University of East Anglia. *Udayan Vajpeyi* is a poet, short story writer and essayist. Among his books are *Sudeshna*, a book of short stories, two collections of poetry, *Kuch Vakya* and *Paagal Ganitajna ki Kavitayen*, and *Abhed Akash*, a book of conversations with Mani Kaul. He has also translated the work of Paz, Borges and Brodsky into Hindi. Mr. Vajpeyi has also written texts for films directed by Sudhansu Misra and Kumar Shahani. He is a recipient of the Krishan Baldev Vaid award and is a medical doctor by training. Vivek Narayanan's first book of poems, *Universal Beach*, appeared in 2006. He is an associate editor at the Boston-based international poetry annual, *Fulcrum*, and is consulting editor of *Almost Island*. He is based in Delhi, and works at Sarai-CSDS. *Sharmistha Mohanty* is the author of two novels, *Book One* and *New Life*. Her translation of Rabindranath Tagore's fiction, *Broken Nest and Other Stories* is due out later this year from Westland Books. She is the editor of *Almost Island*. 2. SCHEDULE OF EVENING READINGS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2 March 6th-9th, 6:30 p.m. Venue: *India International Centre Annexe Lawns* *March 6th – 6.30 pm* Udayan Vajpeyi Bei Dao And closing with a dhrupad performance by Bahauddin Dagar on the rudra-veena. *March 7th – 6.30 pm* Allan Sealy Nabaneeta Dev Sen *March 8th – 6.30 p.m.* Vivek Narayanan George Szirtes *March 9th – 6.30 p.m.* Sharmistha Mohanty Claudio Magris *3. PROGRAMME FOR DISCUSSIONS DURING THE DAY* The discussions at these dialogues emerge from our own concerns at Almost Island. We are committed to writing that is continually seeking new paths. More specifically, these discussions emerge from the writers who come together for these dialogues---their work, their thoughts. We welcome an audience that is keen to listen and to interact, question, disagree. *MARCH 7, 2008* VENUE: Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre SESSION 1: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m. Panelists: Bei Dao, George Szirtes, Nabaneeta Dev Sen, Udayan Vajpeyi, Vivek Narayanan Bei Dao says, "Many poets separate their experience from the language they use in poetry, but in the case of some, like Paul Celan, there is a fusion, a convergence of experience and experimental language." Can this separation, and this fusion, be explored? George Szirtes says, "Speaking personally, I suspect the poet's key experience is of the simultaneous treacherousness, fragility and beauty of language, of the narrow divide between signification and meaninglessness or distortion of meaning. This is related to the question of community. How far is the language of the community to be trusted? What if the community doesn't trust you? What kind of language are you left with outside the community?" Can we look at these questions through the tools of the craft---syntax, diction, metaphor? And, says Nabaneeta Dev Sen, "What about the silences, what the poet does not wish to say? SESSION 2: 2.30 – 5.00 p.m. A conversation with Bei Dao with Sharmistha Mohanty and Vivek Narayanan) *MARCH 8, 2008*: VENUE: Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre SESSION 3: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m. A talk by Claudio Magris on the search for form in his work, in conversation with Sharmistha Mohanty. SESSION 4: 2.30 – 5 p.m. Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre Panelists: Sharmistha Mohanty, Claudio Magris, Allan Sealy, Nabaneeta Dev Sen "What then is the place of fact in the writer's imagination? By fact I mean factual knowledge—whether of history, or geology, or natural processes--information now so widely available to us about the world. I do not mean historical novels here, or novels based on obvious realities like a war, or a natural disaster, I do not mean works of representation. I mean works of prose where the writer uses different kinds of facts, related or unrelated, and unifies them in her own vision, creating a new experience, a new insight. "The writer of literature does not use fact as sociological observation, and stand back. Her self is committed and she builds from the emotions and ambiguities and mysteries that the fact itself generates. The late W. G. Sebald was a great practitioner of this mode of writing. "How then does fact work as an element that builds emotion and insight, how does it push the imagination further?" --Sharmistha Mohanty *MARCH 9, 2008* VENUE: FOUNTAIN LAWNS, IIC SESSION 5: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m. Panelists: Allan Sealy, Udayan Vajpeyi, George Szirtes, Vivek Narayanan "I'm interested in the idea of looking vs. reading, that is, gathering one's material from the world as opposed to gathering it from books. This is only partly the contemporary / historical divide; it's also a fact / fiction fight, with the imagination and truth as referees." —Allan Sealy "As I understand it, Allan's statement points to a long and varied tradition in literature that (even as it draws on its own past for sustenance) specifically refuses or qualifies "book learning" and insists instead on the primacy of direct perception and—perhaps?—the truth of experience as well. It's a tradition of "witness" (I think) that could be drawn through the bhakti poets and William Blake, or from Thoreau through to Gandhi, or indeed, from Darwin. (I set aside the debate over empiricism / vision for the moment.) Of course on one end of the scale, this is the naïve belief of many a young writer who might take it as an excuse not to read; but for an experienced writer (who is by definition well read) it represents a very different challenge. Allan's emphasis on "looking" underlines the fact that it is an active and focused engagement rather than something to be taken for granted. This, in a way, could be understood as literature's special insistence even in our age, its gift to the disciplines. In a sense, and in a sense only, this is the opposite of the "fact" drawn from "sources", and it is found not just in fiction but in lyric as well. It relates equally to the relationship between experience and language that will come up in our first panel. "However, it can be harder, today, to make a case for "gathering material from the world" (or from the self in the world) as a separate, oppositional activity. Even if we look beyond postmodernist theories that profoundly question the very possibility of unmediated perception and / or experience, we are still stuck with the incredible glut of books and data that we cannot turn our eyes away from, the very fading away of the material world as information itself becomes a kind of material. In a current sequence of poems, Mr. Subramanian, I find myself exploring this mediated reality and somehow stubbornly, despite everything, find myself looking for and returning to the truth of experience and of direct perception. What kind of sense does the "truth of experience" (and of witness) make today?" --Vivek Narayanan SESSION 6: 2.30 – 5.00 P.M. An open session in which the audience and the panelists can return to thoughts that have emerged over the course of the conference. From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:50:07 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:20:07 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com><7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. It's all about elections. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has decided > to > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left lazy > and > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students studies > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity seekers > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges > ** > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > * ** > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on Lord > Ram > in its history text books, activists said.' > > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to take > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S Z H > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, whose > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North > Campus today. > > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two colleges > each day to seek support from principals and students for a college-wise > demonstration. > > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said > that > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were only > five people in the building during the violence. > > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the History > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed. > > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if Upinder > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, > "what > took her so long to deny charges". > > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She > could > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > > > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places >> of >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism >> at >> work. ! >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Prem Chandavarkar >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > > >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's >> > that we >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few >> > > hundred >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets >> > for a >> > > change >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an >> > > institution >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. >> > >> > >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the >> > reason why >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies >> > that there is >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior >> > and ignorable. >> > >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It >> > cannot be >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief >> > or a >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. >> > >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, >> > rather than >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History >> > cannot be >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be >> > categorised as >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list >> > List archive: >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From elkamath at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 20:07:43 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 06:37:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] photos of the mini skirt march Joburg 29 Feb Message-ID: <429370.94298.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In the run up to International Women's Day here are some pics of the mini skirt march in Joburg, Feb 29, 2008. Photos at: http://www.flickr.com/gp/14762218 at N05/Zir3NY Cross posted from Debate ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 20:29:13 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:29:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on this list is hanging by a thin thread. MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on the road and narrate it to the people. (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) Kirdar On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: > Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "inder salim" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht ( > > Crematorium in Delhi) > > > > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram > > > > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. > > > > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to > > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed, > > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. > > > > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call > > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . > > > > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to > > Raju) > > > > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead ( > > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram > > Ram > > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. > > > > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But > > how are we Ravana then. > > > > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the > > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) > > > > Ajay: He too is Gandu > > > > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. > > > > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are > > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. > > > > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't > > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just > > over there. > > > > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich > > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. > > > > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you > > sleep with was kidnapped once. > > > > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, > > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time > > to ask > > all these questions. > > > > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who > > fucks the kidnapped girl. > > > > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not > > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband > > and God > > Rama. > > > > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and > > think who would have come to rescue her. > > > > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. > > > > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord > > Rama because people questioned her purity while in > > possession of evil > > Ravana. > > > > Ajay: And he really banished her? > > > > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. > > > > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. > > > > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita > > > > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't > > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. > > This world is > > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. > > > > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... > > > > (2) > > > > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not > > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? > > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry > > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded > > artificially with a deeper question on desire. > > > > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and > > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just > > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a > > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area. > > > > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. > > > > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected > > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called > > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best > > is a meaningful time pass. > > > > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I > > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then > > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, > > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to > > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone > > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known > > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the > > wisest of all. > > > > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with > > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a > > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, > > but sooner they will cease to be. > > > > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the > > stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is > > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I > > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps, > > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is > > that true? > > > > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so > > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can > > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other > > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of > > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the > > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. > > > > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes > > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. > > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is > > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this > > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too > > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need > > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I > > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written > > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe that > > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us > > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, > > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. > > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their > > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our > > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word > > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 > > > > ( to be continued.. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 21:20:34 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:20:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal has yet not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. which controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step taken. But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica Lall and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this case but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've seen the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after the incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP which have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of this BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere playing of blame game. We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in today's senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have lost their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They blindly go on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to all. And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system. On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. It's > all about elections. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > decided > > to > > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left lazy > > and > > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students studies > > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > seekers > > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > > > > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges > > ** > > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > > * ** > > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi > > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on Lord > > Ram > > in its history text books, activists said.' > > > > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint > > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent > > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to take > > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > > > > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S Z > H > > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, whose > > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > > > > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious > > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North > > Campus today. > > > > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > colleges > > each day to seek support from principals and students for a college-wise > > demonstration. > > > > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said > > that > > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were > only > > five people in the building during the violence. > > > > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the History > > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed. > > > > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if > Upinder > > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, > > "what > > took her so long to deny charges". > > > > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She > > could > > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > > > > > > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> > >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas > in > >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does > >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places > >> of > >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu > >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism > >> at > >> work. ! > >> Regards. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > > > >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's > >> > that we > >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a > few > >> > > hundred > >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets > >> > for a > >> > > change > >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > >> > > institution > >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > >> > > >> > > >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > >> > reason why > >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > >> > that there is > >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many > >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior > >> > and ignorable. > >> > > >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and > >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It > >> > cannot be > >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief > >> > or a > >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the > >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. > >> > > >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put > >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > >> > rather than > >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History > >> > cannot be > >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > >> > categorised as > >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > list > >> > List archive: > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From mrsg at vsnl.com Mon Mar 3 23:04:27 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:04:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <"00 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY> <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701c87d55$01a8c8f0$0201a8c0@MRAY> Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this. As a typical 'secular', Kirdar singh finds fault first with MRSG and then finds Salim equally guilty who started his 'story' with ugly conversation. MRSG has not used any foul word and has only stated some historical facts. Kirdar singh as a secular (read pro-Islamists) thought MRSG was just waiting for an excuse. For information, any civilised person on earth considers an adopted son as his/her own son and adopted son's wife as daughter-in-law, not some one to be raped. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirdar singh" To: "MRSG" Cc: "inder salim" ; "sarai list" Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju >I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free > expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on > this list is hanging by a thin thread. > > MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and > deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder > Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to > continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on > the road and narrate it to the people. > > (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) > > Kirdar > > > > On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: >> Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make >> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha >> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "inder salim" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju >> >> >> > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht >> > ( >> > Crematorium in Delhi) >> > >> > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , >> > Ram >> > >> > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. >> > >> > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went >> > to >> > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass >> > screwed, >> > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. >> > >> > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call >> > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . >> > >> > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam >> > to >> > Raju) >> > >> > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead >> > ( >> > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered >> > Ram >> > Ram >> > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. >> > >> > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But >> > how are we Ravana then. >> > >> > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the >> > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) >> > >> > Ajay: He too is Gandu >> > >> > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. >> > >> > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are >> > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. >> > >> > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, >> > don't >> > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just >> > over there. >> > >> > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich >> > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. >> > >> > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you >> > sleep with was kidnapped once. >> > >> > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, >> > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get >> > time >> > to ask >> > all these questions. >> > >> > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who >> > fucks the kidnapped girl. >> > >> > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not >> > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband >> > and God >> > Rama. >> > >> > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and >> > think who would have come to rescue her. >> > >> > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. >> > >> > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord >> > Rama because people questioned her purity while in >> > possession of evil >> > Ravana. >> > >> > Ajay: And he really banished her? >> > >> > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. >> > >> > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. >> > >> > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita >> > >> > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I >> > don't >> > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. >> > This world is >> > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. >> > >> > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... >> > >> > (2) >> > >> > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not >> > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? >> > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry >> > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded >> > artificially with a deeper question on desire. >> > >> > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread >> > and >> > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it >> > just >> > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a >> > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread >> > area. >> > >> > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. >> > >> > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected >> > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals >> > called >> > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best >> > is a meaningful time pass. >> > >> > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece >> > I >> > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, >> > then >> > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, >> > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to >> > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let >> > alone >> > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known >> > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the >> > wisest of all. >> > >> > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with >> > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on >> > a >> > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, >> > but sooner they will cease to be. >> > >> > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the >> > stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is >> > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I >> > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which >> > perhaps, >> > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. >> > Is >> > that true? >> > >> > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, >> > so >> > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can >> > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other >> > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of >> > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around >> > the >> > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. >> > >> > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who >> > makes >> > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. >> > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is >> > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, >> > this >> > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too >> > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I >> > need >> > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I >> > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written >> > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe >> > that >> > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us >> > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our >> > misfortunes, >> > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our >> > predecessors. >> > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing >> > their >> > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our >> > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a >> > word >> > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 >> > >> > ( to be continued.. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 23:43:29 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 23:43:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid communalism, sheer poverty etc etc.., How to define a proud Indian? Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe madness even. Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a great country called Bharat, but how to understand this country which is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions when a decent looking judge sits across a poor petty under trail thief. And when the frustrated thief manages to throw shit on Judge's face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and decent citizens of shining India. And this John Nobody called inder salim is pointing out all this for his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even, seriously ) Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not Delhi's Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples , gurudwaras and mosques are erected illegally on government lands. The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India. Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari corner shop. And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in every sacred calendar. Of course, that is the people's choice, but do they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai. Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are made of such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not this absurd? I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ? It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal, VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo -liberalism of Bengali Left. The world would have been a peaceful place to live in if these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were not born. The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other. I believe, there is no full stop in a discourse… What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar? With love and regards is On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh wrote: > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free > expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on > this list is hanging by a thin thread. > > MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and > deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder > Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to > continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on > the road and narrate it to the people. > > (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) > > Kirdar > > > > > > On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: > > Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make > > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha > > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "inder salim" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > > > > > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht ( > > > Crematorium in Delhi) > > > > > > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram > > > > > > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. > > > > > > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to > > > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed, > > > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. > > > > > > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call > > > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . > > > > > > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to > > > Raju) > > > > > > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead ( > > > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram > > > Ram > > > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. > > > > > > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But > > > how are we Ravana then. > > > > > > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the > > > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) > > > > > > Ajay: He too is Gandu > > > > > > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. > > > > > > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are > > > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. > > > > > > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't > > > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just > > > over there. > > > > > > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich > > > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. > > > > > > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you > > > sleep with was kidnapped once. > > > > > > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, > > > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time > > > to ask > > > all these questions. > > > > > > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who > > > fucks the kidnapped girl. > > > > > > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not > > > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband > > > and God > > > Rama. > > > > > > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and > > > think who would have come to rescue her. > > > > > > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. > > > > > > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord > > > Rama because people questioned her purity while in > > > possession of evil > > > Ravana. > > > > > > Ajay: And he really banished her? > > > > > > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. > > > > > > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. > > > > > > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita > > > > > > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't > > > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. > > > This world is > > > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. > > > > > > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... > > > > > > (2) > > > > > > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not > > > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? > > > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry > > > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded > > > artificially with a deeper question on desire. > > > > > > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and > > > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just > > > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a > > > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area. > > > > > > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. > > > > > > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected > > > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called > > > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best > > > is a meaningful time pass. > > > > > > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I > > > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then > > > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, > > > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to > > > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone > > > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known > > > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the > > > wisest of all. > > > > > > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with > > > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a > > > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, > > > but sooner they will cease to be. > > > > > > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the > > > stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is > > > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I > > > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps, > > > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is > > > that true? > > > > > > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so > > > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can > > > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other > > > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of > > > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the > > > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. > > > > > > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes > > > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. > > > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is > > > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this > > > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too > > > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need > > > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I > > > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written > > > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe that > > > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us > > > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, > > > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. > > > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their > > > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our > > > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word > > > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 > > > > > > ( to be continued.. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 00:08:28 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:38:28 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History References: DEFANGED[1]:<1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com><7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com><6 " " 353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com><00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only witness who came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does the court come in to this? It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his name has been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers, liars, profiteers, opportunists. It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more about the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand still on the non-issues. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal has > yet > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. > which > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step > taken. > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica > Lall > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this > case > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've > seen > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after the > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP > which > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of this > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere > playing > of blame game. > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in > today's > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have lost > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They blindly > go > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to > all. > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system. > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: >> >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. It's >> all about elections. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History >> >> >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has >> decided >> > to >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left >> > lazy >> > and >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students >> > studies >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity >> seekers >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) >> > >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges >> > ** >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 >> > * ** >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across Delhi >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on >> > Lord >> > Ram >> > in its history text books, activists said.' >> > >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for violent >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to >> > take >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. >> > >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) S >> > Z >> H >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, >> > whose >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. >> > >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the religious >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at North >> > Campus today. >> > >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two >> colleges >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a >> > college-wise >> > demonstration. >> > >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and said >> > that >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were >> only >> > five people in the building during the violence. >> > >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the >> > History >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed. >> > >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if >> Upinder >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, >> > "what >> > took her so long to deny charges". >> > >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. She >> > could >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. >> > >> > >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas >> in >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those >> >> places >> >> of >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride >> >> hindu >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is >> >> secularism >> >> at >> >> work. ! >> >> Regards. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's >> >> > that we >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a >> few >> >> > > hundred >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets >> >> > for a >> >> > > change >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an >> >> > > institution >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the >> >> > reason why >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies >> >> > that there is >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior >> >> > and ignorable. >> >> > >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It >> >> > cannot be >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief >> >> > or a >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. >> >> > >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and >> >> > put >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, >> >> > rather than >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History >> >> > cannot be >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be >> >> > categorised as >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> > list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 02:09:25 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:09:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6353c690803031239v7c9d6d8h65edaf2117170ff1@mail.gmail.com> The court surely does come in at each and every point. In Priyadarshini Mattoo Case it was the Court who allwed th prisoner to roam free on benefit of doubt for nearly 7 years. In this particular case as well Supreme Court is the one to initiate any action. The govt. may do anything but the court has to act by law at the end of the day. The law enforcement agencies need to be taken to task for their biased attitude; so what be it on Govt. pressure. The Law enforcement agencies by moral right n duty have to be neutral. I'm no ABVP supporter that I would save those people or support them; but what we know through media is only half truth which is being portrayed. I don't have anything further to say on this. Now, who is using Ram in a negative connotation is quite evident by the media reports in last few days. What remains the truth is again somewhat invisible ? Is whatever that media shows truth ? A lot of understanding and indepth investigation may answer these questions. Its surely sad that politics is being playes on the name of RAM. But, one shouldn't keep mum and standstill and bear all abuses on his/her religion. Wasn't the cartoon of Prophet Mohommad by a Danish reporter a form of freedom of expression ? Where was this left lobby at that time ? If I'm not wrong protesting at Jantar Mantar against the freedom of expression. Lets not change our political views with every other religion. Thanks Aditya Raj On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might > consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only witness > who > came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does the > court come in to this? > > It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his name has > been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers, > liars, profiteers, opportunists. > > It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more about > the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your > revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand still > on the non-issues. > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal has > > yet > > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. > > which > > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step > > taken. > > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no > > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica > > Lall > > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this > > case > > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've > > seen > > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after > the > > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP > > which > > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme > > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of > this > > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere > > playing > > of blame game. > > > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in > > today's > > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have lost > > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They blindly > > go > > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on > > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to > > all. > > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system. > > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > >> > >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. > It's > >> all about elections. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > >> > >> > >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > >> decided > >> > to > >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left > >> > lazy > >> > and > >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students > >> > studies > >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > >> seekers > >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > >> > > >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU colleges > >> > ** > >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > >> > * ** > >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across > Delhi > >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on > >> > Lord > >> > Ram > >> > in its history text books, activists said.' > >> > > >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint > >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for > violent > >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to > >> > take > >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > >> > > >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) > S > >> > Z > >> H > >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, > >> > whose > >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > >> > > >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > religious > >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at > North > >> > Campus today. > >> > > >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > >> colleges > >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > >> > college-wise > >> > demonstration. > >> > > >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and > said > >> > that > >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were > >> only > >> > five people in the building during the violence. > >> > > >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the > >> > History > >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed. > >> > > >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if > >> Upinder > >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History Department, > >> > "what > >> > took her so long to deny charges". > >> > > >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. > She > >> > could > >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > Ramayanas > >> in > >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is > does > >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those > >> >> places > >> >> of > >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride > >> >> hindu > >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > >> >> secularism > >> >> at > >> >> work. ! > >> >> Regards. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> > >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's > >> >> > that we > >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a > >> few > >> >> > > hundred > >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets > >> >> > for a > >> >> > > change > >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an > >> >> > > institution > >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > >> >> > reason why > >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > >> >> > that there is > >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many > >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior > >> >> > and ignorable. > >> >> > > >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and > >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It > >> >> > cannot be > >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief > >> >> > or a > >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the > >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > apartheid. > >> >> > > >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and > >> >> > put > >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > >> >> > rather than > >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History > >> >> > cannot be > >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > >> >> > categorised as > >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> > list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 03:48:08 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:18:08 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History References: DEFANGED[4647]:<1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com><200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net><6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com><7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com><6 " " 353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com><00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash><6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com><009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803031239v7c9d6d8h65edaf2117170ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <014e01c87d7c$76e07f60$6400a8c0@taraprakash> I am really not sure if your assumption that everything that is not BJP or ABVP is left is correct. Where does left come in this entire debate? The ABVP goons are not after any leftist's blood. They seem to be after the daughter of the P.M. Some guys on this list seem to be blaming everything on left for every ill of the society. Very soon we might hear that it was the left lobby that demolished the Mosque in Ayodhya. May be the goons who attacked history department and those who commited the murder in Bhopal were left oriented ABVP goons. Are the judges sitting in the courts left oriented? So the left lobby should be given free land on Jantar mantar where they can protest for every non-issue. How about enlightening the left lobby, whatever it means, what should they have done about the cartoons? Protested against the protests? And how about the issue of repression of the politicians in Bangladesh? About the issues of Sudan, Kenya and Russia? I am really sympathetic to you for the court's injustice in all the cases. The court tells your chief minister to visit the murderer? Was it on the request of the court that the movies are banned in India. Does court tell you to attack the professors? Does court sanctions violence in university campuses? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > The court surely does come in at each and every point. In Priyadarshini > Mattoo Case it was the Court who allwed th prisoner to roam free on > benefit > of doubt for nearly 7 years. In this particular case as well Supreme Court > is the one to initiate any action. The govt. may do anything but the > court > has to act by law at the end of the day. The law enforcement agencies need > to be taken to task for their biased attitude; so what be it on Govt. > pressure. The Law enforcement agencies by moral right n duty have to be > neutral. > > I'm no ABVP supporter that I would save those people or support them; but > what we know through media is only half truth which is being portrayed. I > don't have anything further to say on this. > > Now, who is using Ram in a negative connotation is quite evident by the > media reports in last few days. What remains the truth is again somewhat > invisible ? Is whatever that media shows truth ? A lot of understanding > and > indepth investigation may answer these questions. > > Its surely sad that politics is being playes on the name of RAM. But, one > shouldn't keep mum and standstill and bear all abuses on his/her religion. > Wasn't the cartoon of Prophet Mohommad by a Danish reporter a form of > freedom of expression ? Where was this left lobby at that time ? If I'm > not > wrong protesting at Jantar Mantar against the freedom of expression. Lets > not change our political views with every other religion. > > Thanks > Aditya Raj > > > On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash wrote: >> >> No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might >> consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only witness >> who >> came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does the >> court come in to this? >> >> It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his name has >> been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers, >> liars, profiteers, opportunists. >> >> It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more about >> the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your >> revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand >> still >> on the non-issues. >> ---- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History >> >> >> > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal >> > has >> > yet >> > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. >> > which >> > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step >> > taken. >> > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet no >> > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of Jessica >> > Lall >> > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in this >> > case >> > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. I've >> > seen >> > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after >> the >> > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from ABVP >> > which >> > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of supreme >> > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of >> this >> > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere >> > playing >> > of blame game. >> > >> > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in >> > today's >> > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have >> > lost >> > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They >> > blindly >> > go >> > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent on >> > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known to >> > all. >> > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: >> >> >> >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. >> It's >> >> all about elections. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History >> >> >> >> >> >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has >> >> decided >> >> > to >> >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike left >> >> > lazy >> >> > and >> >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students >> >> > studies >> >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity >> >> seekers >> >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) >> >> > >> >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU >> >> > colleges >> >> > ** >> >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 >> >> > * ** >> >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across >> Delhi >> >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks on >> >> > Lord >> >> > Ram >> >> > in its history text books, activists said.' >> >> > >> >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint >> >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for >> violent >> >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police to >> >> > take >> >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. >> >> > >> >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department (History) >> S >> >> > Z >> >> H >> >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, >> >> > whose >> >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. >> >> > >> >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the >> religious >> >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at >> North >> >> > Campus today. >> >> > >> >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two >> >> colleges >> >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a >> >> > college-wise >> >> > demonstration. >> >> > >> >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and >> said >> >> > that >> >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there were >> >> only >> >> > five people in the building during the violence. >> >> > >> >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the >> >> > History >> >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he claimed. >> >> > >> >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if >> >> Upinder >> >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History >> >> > Department, >> >> > "what >> >> > took her so long to deny charges". >> >> > >> >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. >> She >> >> > could >> >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many >> Ramayanas >> >> in >> >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is >> does >> >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those >> >> >> places >> >> >> of >> >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride >> >> >> hindu >> >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is >> >> >> secularism >> >> >> at >> >> >> work. ! >> >> >> Regards. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar >> >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University >> >> >> History >> >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's >> >> >> > that we >> >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe >> >> >> > > a >> >> few >> >> >> > > hundred >> >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets >> >> >> > for a >> >> >> > > change >> >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in an >> >> >> > > institution >> >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc >> >> >> > > etc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the >> >> >> > reason why >> >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies >> >> >> > that there is >> >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many >> >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior >> >> >> > and ignorable. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It >> >> >> > cannot be >> >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority >> >> >> > belief >> >> >> > or a >> >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the >> >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and >> apartheid. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and >> >> >> > put >> >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, >> >> >> > rather than >> >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History >> >> >> > cannot be >> >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an >> >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be >> >> >> > categorised as >> >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> >> > list >> >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:37:03 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:37:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Story of the Bangalore Metro Rail Message-ID: 26/02/2008 I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. The Bangalore Metro Rail Corporation has been fighting tooth and nail to ensure that the alignment of the Metro stays on CMH Road. The traders along CMH Road argue that their trades will be shut for two years, in addition to the displacement that will take place owing to the demolition of a number of shops to build the Metro. "We have made CMH Road what it is today. Who wants compensation? We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" "We want our place!" 26/02/2008 I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. I found myself as nervous, perhaps even more nervous than the traders whose fates were to be determined by a legal order. Well, but of course, in the city, our fates are sealed by forces more than one, that is if the avenues for negotiations remain open. So eventually, I asked one of the traders, "Are you nervous?" He smiled and said, "We are confident. God is on our sides." Now, I wonder how God aligns himself/herself and how we align God and how the BMRCl aligns God ... The arguments took place in the court. At one point, the counsel for the BMRCL openly stated, "The court is not a forum for deciding on the merits and demerits of economic and administrative policies." The judge was not perturbed by this statement. Eventually, the judge declares that the court is not the authority to decide on the alignment of the Metro. Neither can people question the genesis of the Metro. The plan and infrastructure are declared supreme! (Is there anything more to say?) .... For more details, see http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/81-cmh-road-no-to-metro -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From mohit.thatte at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 08:07:43 2008 From: mohit.thatte at gmail.com (Mohit Thatte) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:37:43 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Story of the Bangalore Metro Rail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16189fe60803031837r250a12a6q45ff45f8697d6912@mail.gmail.com> This is a typical example where "greater good" clashes with the interest of locals. To be more specific, the city of Bangalore will get an alternate, efficient means of public transport thereby reducing commute times, improving traffic conditions, reducing air pollution(?), saving fuel costs and so on. On the other hand, some individuals will be affected by the construction activity leading to the loss of business temporarily, for which they will be compensated by the BMRCL. Who is to decide what is "fair" in such a scenario? Clearly, with the building of the metro, there will be multiple groups of people whose businesses are affected. Who decides whether the compensation paid to them is fair or not? On the other hand, it seems evident from the numbers in the linked article that the compensation structure is quite unfair to a lot of people, where do they turn for redressal?! If the court says it cannot interfere with matters of policy, there is no where to go for the traders! ~Mohit On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > 26/02/2008 > > I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge > K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro > Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. The Bangalore > Metro > Rail Corporation has been fighting tooth and nail to ensure that the > alignment of the Metro stays on CMH Road. The traders along CMH Road argue > that their trades will be shut for two years, in addition to the > displacement that will take place owing to the demolition of a number of > shops to build the Metro. "We have made CMH Road what it is today. Who > wants > compensation? We want our place!" > > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > "We want our place!" > > 26/02/2008 > > I was sitting in the verandah of the Karnataka High Court. That day, Judge > K. L. Manjunath was to pass an order on whether the alignment of the Metro > Rail should run along CMH Road or along Old Madras Road. I found myself as > nervous, perhaps even more nervous than the traders whose fates were to be > determined by a legal order. Well, but of course, in the city, our fates > are > sealed by forces more than one, that is if the avenues for negotiations > remain open. So eventually, I asked one of the traders, "Are you nervous?" > He smiled and said, "We are confident. God is on our sides." Now, I wonder > how God aligns himself/herself and how we align God and how the BMRCl > aligns > God ... > > The arguments took place in the court. At one point, the counsel for the > BMRCL openly stated, "The court is not a forum for deciding on the merits > and demerits of economic and administrative policies." The judge was not > perturbed by this statement. Eventually, the judge declares that the court > is not the authority to decide on the alignment of the Metro. Neither can > people question the genesis of the Metro. The plan and infrastructure are > declared supreme! > > (Is there anything more to say?) .... > > For more details, see > http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/81-cmh-road-no-to-metro > > > > -- > Zainab Bawa > Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher > > Between Places ... > http://wbfs.wordpress.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- -Mohit Thatte "*Smart one-liner goes here*" From naresh.rhythm at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:49:09 2008 From: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com (Naresh Kumar) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:49:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Looking for Ramanujan's article Message-ID: <002601c87da0$cd398f40$8175a13b@nishkars70e408> In one of his replies Indersalam posted some portion of the article by Ramanujan and Ravikant also mentioned a URL but I could not get hold of the article. Can anyone post the full article? NARESH KUMAR, MOBILE:09999308530, e-mail: naresh.rhythm at gmail.com, Residence: 75, Delhi Government flats, Sector11, Rohini, Delhi110085. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 08:55:57 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:55:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <014e01c87d7c$76e07f60$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803031239v7c9d6d8h65edaf2117170ff1@mail.gmail.com> <014e01c87d7c$76e07f60$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6353c690803031925m5f60ffaew6a60ffb802f96a3@mail.gmail.com> As I said before I have nothing in personal terms to with ABVP. I just want a picture of any episode to be given in the right perspective (not rightist or leftist). Hope you understand this last time. But, what astonishes me is what the hell has ABVP and the rightist done to some odd people out there that they just can't dijest anything related to Hindu's; they are just not happy to call themselves Hindu's or be Hindu's ? They do believe in freedom of expression but no freedom of religion. Freedom of expression surely means in today's times according to leftist to carve out nude Godess's in paintings; to write ill about Ram in TEXTBOOKS or propogate negative details about Ramayana etc etc. Aren't the leftist intellectuals a bit positive about things ? Why do they have a problem with just everything and almost all times no solutions ? As one of my senior friends in this forum suggests in India the leftist should be called "Limousine Leftists". They are filthy rich, roam around in luxury cars, stay in palaces; eat grand food from the 5 Star's and still talk things as a leftist. I just can't stop laughing; their failure and current state amuses me. Sir, Courts - The Judiciary is a very important pillar and has a major role to play. Why can't a judge take sue motto cognigance when he see's gross injustice taking place ? Let me remind you this happened with a few cases of Godhra. But, on the other hand Kashmiri Pandit's have been killed, looted, raped...they were displaced and still no court, law enforcement agency, your leftist etc. came to raise their plight or human rights violation. The left oriented lobby of Arundhati Roy, Kuldeep Nayar, Rajender Sachhar, Gautam Navlakha, Sonia Jabbar etc. are hell bent on saving a killer Yasin Malik of JKLF from the Courts; instead they have been praising this fake person as a Gandhian. What more can I now expect from your leftist mates ? I surely won't get Nandigram in betweeen here as you have done with Babri Masjid. Let me tell that just nothin happened in Babri Masjid on that day which people in this forum keep blabbering about; what had happened in real was in Kashmir and before that Babri Masjid episode. More than 400 temples of Kashmir were destroyed, descreated and in some places Masjid's were suddenly built. They even didn't leave the Shamshaan Ghat's there. The civil society, media, human rights and you remained silent; as you do till date. Do I have a Hope left now ? Would you get us Justice ? To indepth understand this issue do read our campaign blog @ http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ I would not like to carry out a debate in this form where we only indulge in blame game; not only you but me as well. The picture is clear in front of us; let each soul decide what is the truth behind this History Department episode. With Regards, Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > I am really not sure if your assumption that everything that is not BJP or > ABVP is left is correct. Where does left come in this entire debate? The > ABVP goons are not after any leftist's blood. They seem to be after the > daughter of the P.M. > Some guys on this list seem to be blaming everything on left for every ill > of the society. Very soon we might hear that it was the left lobby that > demolished the Mosque in Ayodhya. May be the goons who attacked history > department and those who commited the murder in Bhopal were left oriented > ABVP goons. > Are the judges sitting in the courts left oriented? > So the left lobby should be given free land on Jantar mantar where they > can > protest for every non-issue. How about enlightening the left lobby, > whatever > it means, what should they have done about the cartoons? Protested against > the protests? And how about the issue of repression of the politicians in > Bangladesh? About the issues of Sudan, Kenya and Russia? > I am really sympathetic to you for the court's injustice in all the cases. > The court tells your chief minister to visit the murderer? Was it on the > request of the court that the movies are banned in India. Does court tell > you to attack the professors? Does court sanctions violence in university > campuses? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > The court surely does come in at each and every point. In Priyadarshini > > Mattoo Case it was the Court who allwed th prisoner to roam free on > > benefit > > of doubt for nearly 7 years. In this particular case as well Supreme > Court > > is the one to initiate any action. The govt. may do anything but the > > court > > has to act by law at the end of the day. The law enforcement agencies > need > > to be taken to task for their biased attitude; so what be it on Govt. > > pressure. The Law enforcement agencies by moral right n duty have to be > > neutral. > > > > I'm no ABVP supporter that I would save those people or support them; > but > > what we know through media is only half truth which is being portrayed. > I > > don't have anything further to say on this. > > > > Now, who is using Ram in a negative connotation is quite evident by the > > media reports in last few days. What remains the truth is again somewhat > > invisible ? Is whatever that media shows truth ? A lot of understanding > > and > > indepth investigation may answer these questions. > > > > Its surely sad that politics is being playes on the name of RAM. But, > one > > shouldn't keep mum and standstill and bear all abuses on his/her > religion. > > Wasn't the cartoon of Prophet Mohommad by a Danish reporter a form of > > freedom of expression ? Where was this left lobby at that time ? If I'm > > not > > wrong protesting at Jantar Mantar against the freedom of expression. > Lets > > not change our political views with every other religion. > > > > Thanks > > Aditya Raj > > > > > > On 3/4/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > >> > >> No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you might > >> consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only > witness > >> who > >> came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where does > the > >> court come in to this? > >> > >> It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his name > has > >> been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by murderers, > >> liars, profiteers, opportunists. > >> > >> It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked more > about > >> the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in your > >> revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to stand > >> still > >> on the non-issues. > >> ---- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > >> > >> > >> > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. Sabharwal > >> > has > >> > yet > >> > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let Govt. > >> > which > >> > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every step > >> > taken. > >> > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and yet > no > >> > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of > Jessica > >> > Lall > >> > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in > this > >> > case > >> > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. > I've > >> > seen > >> > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even after > >> the > >> > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from > ABVP > >> > which > >> > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of > supreme > >> > court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he is tired of > >> this > >> > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before mere > >> > playing > >> > of blame game. > >> > > >> > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that in > >> > today's > >> > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they have > >> > lost > >> > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They > >> > blindly > >> > go > >> > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet spent > on > >> > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well known > to > >> > all. > >> > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling > system. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and students. > >> It's > >> >> all about elections. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > >> >> decided > >> >> > to > >> >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike > left > >> >> > lazy > >> >> > and > >> >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students > >> >> > studies > >> >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > >> >> seekers > >> >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > >> >> > > >> >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > >> >> > colleges > >> >> > ** > >> >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > >> >> > * ** > >> >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests across > >> Delhi > >> >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks > on > >> >> > Lord > >> >> > Ram > >> >> > in its history text books, activists said.' > >> >> > > >> >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state > joint > >> >> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for > >> violent > >> >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the police > to > >> >> > take > >> >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > >> >> > > >> >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department > (History) > >> S > >> >> > Z > >> >> H > >> >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan Singh, > >> >> > whose > >> >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > >> >> > > >> >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > >> religious > >> >> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press conference held at > >> North > >> >> > Campus today. > >> >> > > >> >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > >> >> colleges > >> >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > >> >> > college-wise > >> >> > demonstration. > >> >> > > >> >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased and > >> said > >> >> > that > >> >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there > were > >> >> only > >> >> > five people in the building during the violence. > >> >> > > >> >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the > >> >> > History > >> >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he > claimed. > >> >> > > >> >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if > >> >> Upinder > >> >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > >> >> > Department, > >> >> > "what > >> >> > took her so long to deny charges". > >> >> > > >> >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half years. > >> She > >> >> > could > >> >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > >> Ramayanas > >> >> in > >> >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is > >> does > >> >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those > >> >> >> places > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride > >> >> >> hindu > >> >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > >> >> >> secularism > >> >> >> at > >> >> >> work. ! > >> >> >> Regards. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > >> >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > >> >> >> History > >> >> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two > Ramayan's > >> >> >> > that we > >> >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > maybe > >> >> >> > > a > >> >> few > >> >> >> > > hundred > >> >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, > lets > >> >> >> > for a > >> >> >> > > change > >> >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history in > an > >> >> >> > > institution > >> >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc > >> >> >> > > etc. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > >> >> >> > reason why > >> >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > >> >> >> > that there is > >> >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and > many > >> >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as > inferior > >> >> >> > and ignorable. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is > made. It > >> >> >> > cannot be > >> >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority > >> >> >> > belief > >> >> >> > or a > >> >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is > the > >> >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > >> apartheid. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, > and > >> >> >> > put > >> >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > >> >> >> > rather than > >> >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a > discipline. History > >> >> >> > cannot be > >> >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > >> >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > >> >> >> > categorised as > >> >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> >> > list > >> >> >> > List archive: > >> >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From naravive at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 17:00:50 2008 From: naravive at gmail.com (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:00:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Almost Island Dialogues 2: March 6-9, New Delhi Message-ID: <79705fb50803030330l1e5f6211nb2b3c91be15b40b7@mail.gmail.com> ALMOST ISLAND: DIALOGUES 2 MARCH 6TH TO 9TH 2008: INDIA INTERNATIONAL CENTRE, DELHI Almost Island is a new online literary magazine based in India, but international in scope. We have been trying to slowly unfold and discover a specific kind of intervention in the Indian context: we conceive of and believe in poetry and prose on an equal footing, are interested in and open to (but certainly not simplistically beholden to) the idea of global literary avant-gardes and, more generally, literature of a philosophical nature. We are not afraid of difficulty, complexity, or seriousness, and we're certainly not afraid of the effects and legacy of more than a century of literary modernism! Part of this agenda is also to foster a higher and more intense level of literary engagement at the local level by bringing major voices from around the world in contact with Indian writers. The idea here is not so much to be absorbed into the making of literary celebrity, or to make a festival of India's supposed arrival on the world stage, but to listen closely and to find ways to think through literature as practicing writers and not as academics, without, on the other hand, "dumbing down". This year the conference will extend from the evening of 6th March 2008 to the evening of 9th March 2008, at the India International Centre (IIC), Delhi. There will be readings each evening, including a rudraveena concert by Bahauddin Dagar on the night of 6th March. During the day, there will be extended discussions and talks. The evening readings, from Thursday 6th to Sunday 9th March are open to all. The day sessions are also open to all interested participants, but **please note that we can only provide lunch for a limited number of participants who have pre-registered**. If you have any questions or clarifications, please contact Kavita Bhanot at 9871716994 / bhanot.kavita at gmail.com. Please find a detailed programme below: 1) bios of panelists / readers; 2) schedule of evening readings; and 3) details of the day sessions. *1. PANELISTS AND READERS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2* Bei Dao* is considered the most notable of the "misty poets", a group pf Chinese poets who opposed the restrictions of the Cultural Revolution; his oblique verses were memorized by students and chanted at Tiananmen Square, and as a result he went into in exile from China from 1989 to 2006, when he was allowed to return to Hong Kong, where he is currently based. Despite his fame and the political circumstances of his life, he has continued to write a poetry that is both formally experimental and insistently difficult, responding to politics in hidden ways, influenced by the work of Paul Celan. He is also the editor in chief of the influential Chinese literary journal, Jintian. He has won numerous awards and has been nominated several times for the Nobel Prize in Literature. *Nabaneeta Dev Sen* is one of Bengal's leading writers. She is the author of over fifteen novels, three books of poetry, children's books, plays and translations. Her two recent novels are *Dwiragaman* and *Ramdhan Mittir Lane*. Her most recent collection of poetry is *Shreshtha Kabita*. In 2000 she was awarded the Padma Shri for her contribution to Literature. She has been for many years, a Professor of Comparative Literature at Jadavpur University in Kolkata. *Claudio Magris* is the author of the novels *A Different Sea* and *Inferences from a Sabre*, along with scholarly works on Austrian and Central European literature. In the English speaking world, he is known principally as the author of two books, *Danube* (a journey from the source to the mouth of the river) and *Microcosms*, densely allusive literary journeys that seem to take the genre of "travelogue" into a class of their own. Magris teaches German literature at the University in Trieste and has been for many years a columnist for the Italian daily Corriere Della Sera. He has been awarded several prizes, among them the Strega Prize and the Erasmus Prize, and has also been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature. *Allan Sealy* is the author of several acclaimed novels including *The Trotter Nama*, *The Everest Hotel*, *The Brainfever Bird* and *Red*. He was awarded the Commonwealth Prize for *The Trotter Nama* and is a recipient of the Sahitya Akademi Award. *George Szirtes* is one of England's leading poets as well as the translator of several works from the Hungarian, including novels by Sandor Marai and Lazlo Krasznakorkai. He has over fifteen collections of poetry, the most recent being *An English Apocalypse* and *Reel*, which won the T.S. Eliot prize, Britain's highest honour for a single book of poetry, in 2005. He currently teaches Creative Writing at the University of East Anglia. *Udayan Vajpeyi* is a poet, short story writer and essayist. Among his books are *Sudeshna*, a book of short stories, two collections of poetry, *Kuch Vakya* and *Paagal Ganitajna ki Kavitayen*, and *Abhed Akash*, a book of conversations with Mani Kaul. He has also translated the work of Paz, Borges and Brodsky into Hindi. Mr. Vajpeyi has also written texts for films directed by Sudhansu Misra and Kumar Shahani. He is a recipient of the Krishan Baldev Vaid award and is a medical doctor by training. Vivek Narayanan's first book of poems, *Universal Beach*, appeared in 2006. He is an associate editor at the Boston-based international poetry annual, *Fulcrum*, and is consulting editor of *Almost Island*. He is based in Delhi, and works at Sarai-CSDS. *Sharmistha Mohanty* is the author of two novels, *Book One* and *New Life*. Her translation of Rabindranath Tagore's fiction, *Broken Nest and Other Stories* is due out later this year from Westland Books. She is the editor of *Almost Island*. 2. SCHEDULE OF EVENING READINGS: ALMOST ISLAND DIALOGUES 2 March 6th-9th, 6:30 p.m. Venue: *India International Centre Annexe Lawns* *March 6th – 6.30 pm* Udayan Vajpeyi Bei Dao And closing with a dhrupad performance by Bahauddin Dagar on the rudra-veena. *March 7th – 6.30 pm* Allan Sealy Nabaneeta Dev Sen *March 8th – 6.30 p.m.* Vivek Narayanan George Szirtes *March 9th – 6.30 p.m.* Sharmistha Mohanty Claudio Magris *3. PROGRAMME FOR DISCUSSIONS DURING THE DAY* The discussions at these dialogues emerge from our own concerns at Almost Island. We are committed to writing that is continually seeking new paths. More specifically, these discussions emerge from the writers who come together for these dialogues---their work, their thoughts. We welcome an audience that is keen to listen and to interact, question, disagree. *MARCH 7, 2008* VENUE: Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre SESSION 1: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m. Panelists: Bei Dao, George Szirtes, Nabaneeta Dev Sen, Udayan Vajpeyi, Vivek Narayanan Bei Dao says, "Many poets separate their experience from the language they use in poetry, but in the case of some, like Paul Celan, there is a fusion, a convergence of experience and experimental language." Can this separation, and this fusion, be explored? George Szirtes says, "Speaking personally, I suspect the poet's key experience is of the simultaneous treacherousness, fragility and beauty of language, of the narrow divide between signification and meaninglessness or distortion of meaning. This is related to the question of community. How far is the language of the community to be trusted? What if the community doesn't trust you? What kind of language are you left with outside the community?" Can we look at these questions through the tools of the craft---syntax, diction, metaphor? And, says Nabaneeta Dev Sen, "What about the silences, what the poet does not wish to say? SESSION 2: 2.30 – 5.00 p.m. A conversation with Bei Dao with Sharmistha Mohanty and Vivek Narayanan) *MARCH 8, 2008*: VENUE: Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre SESSION 3: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m. A talk by Claudio Magris on the search for form in his work, in conversation with Sharmistha Mohanty. SESSION 4: 2.30 – 5 p.m. Conference Room I, above the library, India International Centre Panelists: Sharmistha Mohanty, Claudio Magris, Allan Sealy, Nabaneeta Dev Sen "What then is the place of fact in the writer's imagination? By fact I mean factual knowledge—whether of history, or geology, or natural processes--information now so widely available to us about the world. I do not mean historical novels here, or novels based on obvious realities like a war, or a natural disaster, I do not mean works of representation. I mean works of prose where the writer uses different kinds of facts, related or unrelated, and unifies them in her own vision, creating a new experience, a new insight. "The writer of literature does not use fact as sociological observation, and stand back. Her self is committed and she builds from the emotions and ambiguities and mysteries that the fact itself generates. The late W. G. Sebald was a great practitioner of this mode of writing. "How then does fact work as an element that builds emotion and insight, how does it push the imagination further?" --Sharmistha Mohanty *MARCH 9, 2008* VENUE: FOUNTAIN LAWNS, IIC SESSION 5: 10.00 a.m. – 1 p.m. Panelists: Allan Sealy, Udayan Vajpeyi, George Szirtes, Vivek Narayanan "I'm interested in the idea of looking vs. reading, that is, gathering one's material from the world as opposed to gathering it from books. This is only partly the contemporary / historical divide; it's also a fact / fiction fight, with the imagination and truth as referees." —Allan Sealy "As I understand it, Allan's statement points to a long and varied tradition in literature that (even as it draws on its own past for sustenance) specifically refuses or qualifies "book learning" and insists instead on the primacy of direct perception and—perhaps?—the truth of experience as well. It's a tradition of "witness" (I think) that could be drawn through the bhakti poets and William Blake, or from Thoreau through to Gandhi, or indeed, from Darwin. (I set aside the debate over empiricism / vision for the moment.) Of course on one end of the scale, this is the naïve belief of many a young writer who might take it as an excuse not to read; but for an experienced writer (who is by definition well read) it represents a very different challenge. Allan's emphasis on "looking" underlines the fact that it is an active and focused engagement rather than something to be taken for granted. This, in a way, could be understood as literature's special insistence even in our age, its gift to the disciplines. In a sense, and in a sense only, this is the opposite of the "fact" drawn from "sources", and it is found not just in fiction but in lyric as well. It relates equally to the relationship between experience and language that will come up in our first panel. "However, it can be harder, today, to make a case for "gathering material from the world" (or from the self in the world) as a separate, oppositional activity. Even if we look beyond postmodernist theories that profoundly question the very possibility of unmediated perception and / or experience, we are still stuck with the incredible glut of books and data that we cannot turn our eyes away from, the very fading away of the material world as information itself becomes a kind of material. In a current sequence of poems, Mr. Subramanian, I find myself exploring this mediated reality and somehow stubbornly, despite everything, find myself looking for and returning to the truth of experience and of direct perception. What kind of sense does the "truth of experience" (and of witness) make today?" --Vivek Narayanan SESSION 6: 2.30 – 5.00 P.M. An open session in which the audience and the panelists can return to thoughts that have emerged over the course of the conference. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From vivek at sarai.net Tue Mar 4 11:20:41 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:20:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CCE331.1070208@sarai.net> Dear Kirdar and Mohit Ray, Can either of you please explain to me what exactly is so offensive and denigrating to Hindus in Inder Salim's post below? Is it the use of varieties of language that one often hears on the street? Or is it that Sita is more heroic than Ram-- as argued by the characters in the first section? Please quote directly from the piece to support your argument. Also, I'd like to hear your analysis of the second part of this piece, which might be lost in the midst of hullabaloo. What , for instance, do you make of or find offensive about IS's closing paragraph: "We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains." ? Vivek kirdar singh wrote: > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free > expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on > this list is hanging by a thin thread. > > MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and > deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder > Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to > continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on > the road and narrate it to the people. > > (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) > > Kirdar > > > > On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: > >> Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make >> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha >> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "inder salim" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju >> >> >> >>> On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht ( >>> Crematorium in Delhi) >>> >>> Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram >>> >>> Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. >>> >>> Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to >>> school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed, >>> rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. >>> >>> Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call >>> Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . >>> >>> Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to >>> Raju) >>> >>> Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead ( >>> laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram >>> Ram >>> when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. >>> >>> Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But >>> how are we Ravana then. >>> >>> Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the >>> Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) >>> >>> Ajay: He too is Gandu >>> >>> Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. >>> >>> Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are >>> dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. >>> >>> Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't >>> you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just >>> over there. >>> >>> Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich >>> people do it, and so what is wrong with it. >>> >>> Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you >>> sleep with was kidnapped once. >>> >>> Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, >>> behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time >>> to ask >>> all these questions. >>> >>> Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who >>> fucks the kidnapped girl. >>> >>> Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not >>> like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband >>> and God >>> Rama. >>> >>> Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and >>> think who would have come to rescue her. >>> >>> Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. >>> >>> Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord >>> Rama because people questioned her purity while in >>> possession of evil >>> Ravana. >>> >>> Ajay: And he really banished her? >>> >>> Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. >>> >>> Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. >>> >>> Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita >>> >>> Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't >>> smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. >>> This world is >>> a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. >>> >>> Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... >>> >>> (2) >>> >>> Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not >>> thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? >>> Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry >>> is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded >>> artificially with a deeper question on desire. >>> >>> Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and >>> the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just >>> happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a >>> way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area. >>> >>> Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. >>> >>> Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected >>> profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called >>> 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best >>> is a meaningful time pass. >>> >>> Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I >>> eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then >>> I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, >>> since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to >>> words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone >>> this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known >>> with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the >>> wisest of all. >>> >>> It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with >>> forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a >>> black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, >>> but sooner they will cease to be. >>> >>> By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the >>> stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is >>> vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I >>> managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps, >>> betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is >>> that true? >>> >>> No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so >>> does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can >>> hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other >>> word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of >>> children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the >>> mother-word and listen a bed time story even. >>> >>> So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes >>> his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. >>> He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is >>> supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this >>> business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too >>> believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need >>> to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I >>> have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written >>> his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe that >>> God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us >>> mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, >>> if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. >>> And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their >>> fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our >>> past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word >>> or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains. >>> >>> From vivek at sarai.net Tue Mar 4 11:26:23 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:26:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <"e3 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0@mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CCE487.9070404@sarai.net> Dear Radhikarajen, Can you show me exactly how, and where, the essay by A.K. Ramanujan is denigrating to Hinduism? Please quote at least one sentence, or even one phrase, if you can, from the essay which denigrates Hinduism. (I'm assuming that you have actually read the complete essay.) As far as I can tell, Ramanujan's essay is a great tribute to Hindu (and, more generally, South Asian) storytelling traditions. Vivek radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many Ramayanas in their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here is does freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? Those places of learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who deride hindu faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is secularism at work. ! > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Prem Chandavarkar > Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: Aditya Raj Kaul > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >>> We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's >>> >> that we >> >>> recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There maybe a few >>> hundred >>> more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets >>> >> for a >> >>> change >>> concentrate on the original source while studying history in an >>> institution >>> rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc etc. >>> >> To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the >> reason why >> this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies >> that there is >> a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many >> secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior >> and ignorable. >> >> Such a classification should also be accompanied by an ethical and >> intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It >> cannot be >> merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority belief >> or a >> historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the >> argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and apartheid. >> >> Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, and put >> forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, >> rather than >> epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History >> cannot be >> ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an >> ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be >> categorised as >> archive, or dismissed as non-archive. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: >> > ________ From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 12:35:23 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:35:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] film fest notice Message-ID: <98f331e00803032305k4e364cc8u5dddd451d338ca90@mail.gmail.com> 3 CINEMELA 2008 a festival of short films & documentaries by YOUNG filmmakers (and by those who consider themselves YOUNG!!) 11-13 April 2008 Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi Entries should reach on or before 25 March, 2008. Format –DVD or VCD (two copies of each entry) Films must be sub-titled in English Enclose a brief synopsis, CV with photograph, details of crew and a declaration of participation. Filmmakers are requested to send a short note on "Why I make films" and some stills, posters and publicity material. (not mandatory) No bar on numbers of entries and length or theme of the films. Films can be experimental, animation, musical, in fact, anything. NO ENTRY FEE All are requested to contribute generously since the festival does not accept any corporate or commercial sponsorship. A little contribution will be a great boost for our effort. Send your contribution as cheque/demand draft payable to Prakash Kumar Ray and payable at Delhi/New Delhi. The films will remain with the Cinemela Collectives and a collection of films from the festival shall be screened at other campuses and places. The certificate of participation shall be issued to all participants. The films screened in the festival shall not be returned. Those who want their films be returned should send Rs 250 as the cost of packing and postage (as cheque/demand draft payable to Prakash Kumar Ray and payable at Delhi/New Delhi). Send your entries and contribution to – Prakash Kumar Ray 225, Sutlej Hostel, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi – 110067. phone (0) 9873313315 mail cinemela at gmail.com pkray11 at gmail.com web www.cinemela.blogspot.com (Details of previous festivals are also there) The festival has no jury since there is no award. We try to screen all entries along with some films from seniors, however, a committee will select the films to be screened. We seek your cooperation and support in this endeavour. In solidarity, Prakash Kumar Ray Convenor, Cinemela Collectives From namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in Tue Mar 4 14:29:32 2008 From: namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in (Namrata Kakkar) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:59:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Taslima --hate speaker? Message-ID: <934902.63174.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Please read Iqbal A. Ansari's article Free Speech-Hate Speech : The Taslima Nasreen Case in the EPW ( Feb. 23, 2008. Despite arguing for the ban ( which projects Taslima as indulging in hate speech), it owes a lot to the debate that was going on at the Sarai Reader's List. Owes ...yet without anacknowledgement. But the List knows... Namrata Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 16:36:53 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:36:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An evening of Kashmir Past & Present In-Reply-To: <6353c690803040250t674ae786sce51eb46bf8a2862@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803040250t674ae786sce51eb46bf8a2862@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803040306l17d42984g9c5ac521fdbdf9b0@mail.gmail.com> *An evening of Kashmir Past & Present* *Aastha Manocha, Kashmir Live, Indian Express Group * ** *Pain is universal, that is why humans can shed tears over others' grief, but it is humans only who are capable of tormenting fellow humans too. Both these facets were seen as regards Kashmir, in Chandigarh on the evening of 29th February. * *The Chandigarh chapter of Roots in Kashmir, a Kashmiri youth initiative, had staged a play called 'Trishna' (longing) on the sufferings undergone by the Kashmiri Hindus, popularly known as Kashmiri Pandits, in the peak of the militancy, which eventually led to the mass exodus of the minority Kashmiri Pandits from the valley into sub-human camps in Jammu and Delhi. * Read more @ http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ *Thanks* ** *On behalf of Roots In Kashmir - www.rootsinkashmir.org * *Aditya Raj Kaul* From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 17:37:15 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:37:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vivek I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for you and vis a versa. Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's following phrase very seriously: "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this." Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned, Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you may disagree. Kirdar (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) On 3/3/08, inder salim wrote: > Dear all, > Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant > corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid > communalism, sheer poverty etc etc.., > > How to define a proud Indian? > > Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set > up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies > and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the > brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe > madness even. > > Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that > the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is > announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a > great country called Bharat, but how to understand this country which > is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions > when a decent looking judge sits across a poor petty under trail > thief. And when the frustrated thief manages to throw shit on Judge's > face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The > petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and > decent citizens of shining India. > > And this John Nobody called inder salim is pointing out all this for > his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even, > seriously ) > > Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not Delhi's > Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples , > gurudwaras and mosques are erected illegally on government lands. > The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India. > Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal > tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari > corner shop. > > And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in > every sacred calendar. Of course, that is the people's choice, but do > they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to > see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But > if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very > individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their > way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are > free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not > work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai. > > Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the > number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are made of > such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for > their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes > in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not > this absurd? > > I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of > Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred > scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world > as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ? > > It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to > Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal, > VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo > -liberalism of Bengali Left. The world would have been a peaceful > place to live in if these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were > not born. > > The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without > dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other. I believe, > there is no full stop in a discourse… > > What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar? > > With love and regards > is > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh wrote: > > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free > > expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on > > this list is hanging by a thin thread. > > > > MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and > > deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder > > Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to > > continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on > > the road and narrate it to the people. > > > > (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) > > > > Kirdar > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: > > > Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make > > > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha > > > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "inder salim" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > > > > > > > > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht ( > > > > Crematorium in Delhi) > > > > > > > > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , Ram > > > > > > > > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. > > > > > > > > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went to > > > > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass screwed, > > > > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. > > > > > > > > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call > > > > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . > > > > > > > > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam to > > > > Raju) > > > > > > > > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead ( > > > > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered Ram > > > > Ram > > > > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. > > > > > > > > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But > > > > how are we Ravana then. > > > > > > > > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the > > > > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) > > > > > > > > Ajay: He too is Gandu > > > > > > > > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. > > > > > > > > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are > > > > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. > > > > > > > > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, don't > > > > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just > > > > over there. > > > > > > > > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich > > > > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. > > > > > > > > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you > > > > sleep with was kidnapped once. > > > > > > > > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, > > > > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get time > > > > to ask > > > > all these questions. > > > > > > > > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who > > > > fucks the kidnapped girl. > > > > > > > > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not > > > > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband > > > > and God > > > > Rama. > > > > > > > > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and > > > > think who would have come to rescue her. > > > > > > > > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. > > > > > > > > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord > > > > Rama because people questioned her purity while in > > > > possession of evil > > > > Ravana. > > > > > > > > Ajay: And he really banished her? > > > > > > > > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. > > > > > > > > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. > > > > > > > > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita > > > > > > > > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I don't > > > > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. > > > > This world is > > > > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. > > > > > > > > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... > > > > > > > > (2) > > > > > > > > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not > > > > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? > > > > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry > > > > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded > > > > artificially with a deeper question on desire. > > > > > > > > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread and > > > > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it just > > > > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a > > > > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread area. > > > > > > > > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. > > > > > > > > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected > > > > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals called > > > > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best > > > > is a meaningful time pass. > > > > > > > > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece I > > > > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, then > > > > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, > > > > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to > > > > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let alone > > > > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known > > > > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the > > > > wisest of all. > > > > > > > > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with > > > > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on a > > > > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, > > > > but sooner they will cease to be. > > > > > > > > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the > > > > stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is > > > > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I > > > > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which perhaps, > > > > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. Is > > > > that true? > > > > > > > > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, so > > > > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can > > > > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other > > > > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of > > > > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around the > > > > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. > > > > > > > > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who makes > > > > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. > > > > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is > > > > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, this > > > > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too > > > > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I need > > > > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I > > > > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written > > > > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe that > > > > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us > > > > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, > > > > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our predecessors. > > > > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing their > > > > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our > > > > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a word > > > > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 > > > > > > > > ( to be continued.. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mrsg at vsnl.com Tue Mar 4 20:44:36 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:44:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <"0 0 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY> <"73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f949 40 82d7"@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY> Mr. Kirdar Singh, how do you know MRSG is a hindu? What I have written on Muhammad (marrying own adopted son's wife and Ayesha's affair in the desert) is quite well known. Muhammad's marriage to his adopted son's former wife, Zaynab bint Jashplease can be found in any standard text on this subject. How Ayesha got lost in desert and then to clear her up from charges, Muhammad got a new revealation - these are well discussed issues. Please take a little pain to find those. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirdar singh" To: "inder salim" ; ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju Dear Vivek I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for you and vis a versa. Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's following phrase very seriously: "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this." Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned, Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you may disagree. Kirdar (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) On 3/3/08, inder salim wrote: > Dear all, > Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant > corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid > communalism, sheer poverty etc etc.., > > How to define a proud Indian? > > Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set > up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies > and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the > brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe > madness even. > > Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that > the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is > announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a > great country called Bharat, but how to understand this country which > is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions > when a decent looking judge sits across a poor petty under trail > thief. And when the frustrated thief manages to throw shit on Judge's > face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The > petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and > decent citizens of shining India. > > And this John Nobody called inder salim is pointing out all this for > his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even, > seriously ) > > Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not Delhi's > Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples , > gurudwaras and mosques are erected illegally on government lands. > The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India. > Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal > tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari > corner shop. > > And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in > every sacred calendar. Of course, that is the people's choice, but do > they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to > see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But > if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very > individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their > way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are > free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not > work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai. > > Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the > number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are made of > such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for > their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes > in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not > this absurd? > > I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of > Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred > scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world > as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ? > > It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to > Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal, > VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo > -liberalism of Bengali Left. The world would have been a peaceful > place to live in if these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were > not born. > > The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without > dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other. I believe, > there is no full stop in a discourse… > > What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar? > > With love and regards > is > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh > wrote: > > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free > > expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on > > this list is hanging by a thin thread. > > > > MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and > > deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder > > Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to > > continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on > > the road and narrate it to the people. > > > > (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) > > > > Kirdar > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: > > > Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and > > make > > > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife > > Ayesha > > > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "inder salim" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > > > > > > > > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh > > Gaht ( > > > > Crematorium in Delhi) > > > > > > > > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram > > , Ram > > > > > > > > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. > > > > > > > > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never > > went to > > > > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass > > screwed, > > > > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. > > > > > > > > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people > > call > > > > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . > > > > > > > > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja > > chilam to > > > > Raju) > > > > > > > > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the > > dead ( > > > > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also > > uttered Ram > > > > Ram > > > > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. > > > > > > > > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. > > But > > > > how are we Ravana then. > > > > > > > > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the > > > > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) > > > > > > > > Ajay: He too is Gandu > > > > > > > > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. > > > > > > > > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we > > are > > > > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are > > bad. > > > > > > > > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, > > don't > > > > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living > > just > > > > over there. > > > > > > > > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the > > rich > > > > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. > > > > > > > > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl > > you > > > > sleep with was kidnapped once. > > > > > > > > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly > > questions, > > > > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get > > time > > > > to ask > > > > all these questions. > > > > > > > > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us > > who > > > > fucks the kidnapped girl. > > > > > > > > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, > > not > > > > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her > > husband > > > > and God > > > > Rama. > > > > > > > > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, > > and > > > > think who would have come to rescue her. > > > > > > > > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. > > > > > > > > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by > > Lord > > > > Rama because people questioned her purity while in > > > > possession of evil > > > > Ravana. > > > > > > > > Ajay: And he really banished her? > > > > > > > > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. > > > > > > > > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. > > > > > > > > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita > > > > > > > > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I > > don't > > > > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. > > > > This world is > > > > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. > > > > > > > > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the > > light... > > > > > > > > (2) > > > > > > > > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not > > > > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? > > > > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but > > poetry > > > > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded > > > > artificially with a deeper question on desire. > > > > > > > > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats > > bread and > > > > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But > > it just > > > > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in > > such a > > > > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread > > area. > > > > > > > > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. > > > > > > > > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected > > > > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals > > called > > > > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the > > best > > > > is a meaningful time pass. > > > > > > > > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread > > piece I > > > > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, > > then > > > > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is > > unlikely, > > > > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed > > over to > > > > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let > > alone > > > > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each > > known > > > > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is > > the > > > > wisest of all. > > > > > > > > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with > > > > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange > > them on a > > > > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a > > language, > > > > but sooner they will cease to be. > > > > > > > > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with > > the > > > > stock of words already available with me, which I naively > > believe is > > > > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I > > > > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which > > perhaps, > > > > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of > > words. Is > > > > that true? > > > > > > > > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask > > jumps, so > > > > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers > > can > > > > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with > > other > > > > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of > > > > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit > > around the > > > > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. > > > > > > > > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who > > makes > > > > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative > > conditions. > > > > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God > > is > > > > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, > > this > > > > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too > > > > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth > > I need > > > > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then > > I > > > > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has > > written > > > > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe > > that > > > > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for > > us > > > > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our > > misfortunes, > > > > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our > > predecessors. > > > > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing > > their > > > > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of > > our > > > > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write > > a word > > > > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 > > > > > > > > ( to be continued.. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mrsg at vsnl.com Tue Mar 4 19:51:28 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:51:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <"0 0 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY> <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> <47CCE331.1070208@sarai.net> Message-ID: <000401c87e0a$a2acb760$0201a8c0@MRAY> Dear Vivek Narayan I have not asked any explanation from Inder Salim or said anything against his posting also. I only asked for a story on Muhammad also based on historical fact. I would rather ask you to explain what made you suddenly jump in this issue,- too much hurt getting that some truth on Muhammad getting exposed through this reader list. Mohit Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vivek Narayanan" To: "kirdar singh" Cc: "MRSG" ; "sarai list" Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > Dear Kirdar and Mohit Ray, > > Can either of you please explain to me what exactly is so offensive and > denigrating to Hindus in Inder Salim's post below? Is it the use of > varieties of language that one often hears on the street? Or is it that > Sita is more heroic than Ram-- as argued by the characters in the first > section? Please quote directly from the piece to support your argument. > Also, I'd like to hear your analysis of the second part of this piece, > which might be lost in the midst of hullabaloo. What , for instance, do > you make of or find offensive about IS's closing paragraph: > > "We collectively own our past. Our misfortunes, if any, were written by > the billions and billions of our predecessors. And since they are living > within us as well, we are experiencing their fates too. Are not we a > conglomeration of echoes and traces of our past? Ontologically we are > moving to and fro, so we may write a word or not even, the fact of being > of our existence remains." > > ? > Vivek > > kirdar singh wrote: >> I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free >> expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on >> this list is hanging by a thin thread. >> >> MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and >> deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder >> Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to >> continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on >> the road and narrate it to the people. >> >> (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) >> >> Kirdar >> >> >> >> On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: >> >>> Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make >>> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife >>> Ayesha >>> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "inder salim" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju >>> >>> >>> >>>> On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh Gaht >>>> ( >>>> Crematorium in Delhi) >>>> >>>> Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram , >>>> Ram >>>> >>>> Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. >>>> >>>> Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never went >>>> to >>>> school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass >>>> screwed, >>>> rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. >>>> >>>> Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people call >>>> Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . >>>> >>>> Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja chilam >>>> to >>>> Raju) >>>> >>>> Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the dead >>>> ( >>>> laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also uttered >>>> Ram >>>> Ram >>>> when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. >>>> >>>> Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. But >>>> how are we Ravana then. >>>> >>>> Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the >>>> Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) >>>> >>>> Ajay: He too is Gandu >>>> >>>> Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. >>>> >>>> Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we are >>>> dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are bad. >>>> >>>> Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, >>>> don't >>>> you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living just >>>> over there. >>>> >>>> Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the rich >>>> people do it, and so what is wrong with it. >>>> >>>> Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl you >>>> sleep with was kidnapped once. >>>> >>>> Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly questions, >>>> behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get >>>> time >>>> to ask >>>> all these questions. >>>> >>>> Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us who >>>> fucks the kidnapped girl. >>>> >>>> Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, not >>>> like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her husband >>>> and God >>>> Rama. >>>> >>>> Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, and >>>> think who would have come to rescue her. >>>> >>>> Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. >>>> >>>> Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by Lord >>>> Rama because people questioned her purity while in >>>> possession of evil >>>> Ravana. >>>> >>>> Ajay: And he really banished her? >>>> >>>> Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. >>>> >>>> Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. >>>> >>>> Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita >>>> >>>> Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I >>>> don't >>>> smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. >>>> This world is >>>> a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. >>>> >>>> Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the light... >>>> >>>> (2) >>>> >>>> Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not >>>> thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? >>>> Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but poetry >>>> is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded >>>> artificially with a deeper question on desire. >>>> >>>> Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats bread >>>> and >>>> the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But it >>>> just >>>> happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in such a >>>> way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread >>>> area. >>>> >>>> Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. >>>> >>>> Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected >>>> profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals >>>> called >>>> 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the best >>>> is a meaningful time pass. >>>> >>>> Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread piece >>>> I >>>> eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, >>>> then >>>> I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is unlikely, >>>> since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed over to >>>> words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let >>>> alone >>>> this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each known >>>> with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is the >>>> wisest of all. >>>> >>>> It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with >>>> forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange them on >>>> a >>>> black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a language, >>>> but sooner they will cease to be. >>>> >>>> By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with the >>>> stock of words already available with me, which I naively believe is >>>> vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I >>>> managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which >>>> perhaps, >>>> betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of words. >>>> Is >>>> that true? >>>> >>>> No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask jumps, >>>> so >>>> does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers can >>>> hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with other >>>> word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of >>>> children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit around >>>> the >>>> mother-word and listen a bed time story even. >>>> >>>> So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who >>>> makes >>>> his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative conditions. >>>> He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God is >>>> supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, >>>> this >>>> business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too >>>> believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth I >>>> need >>>> to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then I >>>> have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has written >>>> his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe >>>> that >>>> God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for us >>>> mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our >>>> misfortunes, >>>> if any, were written by the billions and billions of our >>>> predecessors. >>>> And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing >>>> their >>>> fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of our >>>> past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write a >>>> word >>>> or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains. >>>> >>>> > From padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 20:55:45 2008 From: padmalatha.ravi at gmail.com (Padmalatha Ravi) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 20:55:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Women's Film Festival on March 8 Message-ID: *Just Femme* & Suchitra Film Society Present Women's Film Festival On March 8, International Women's Day 3 PM onwards Venue: Suchitra Film Society, #36, 9th Main (BV Karanth Road), Banashankari 2nd Stage, Bangalore Phone: 26711785 Entry is free The festival features five short films, chronicling women's lives in contemporary India. For more details about the films, visit www.justfemme.inor contact Just Femme at 9741437431. *About Us*: Just Femme is an online women's magazine, meant to be a space to discuss issues that affect women. This is an effort to give voice to those opinions that otherwise go unheard. Just Femme's writers are largely first timers –- women who are touched by these issues, should ideally have a say in it but don't. There is strength in numbers. Given a wider platform, the Just Femme writer is encouraged to talk about her concerns freely and hopefully take a stand. This is where she can say what she wants and collect her bouquets or brickbats, share thoughts and opinions. The Just Femme film festival that is being held on the International Women's Day brings together a collection of documentaries and docu-dramas about women; snapshots of courage and perseverance, of the fight against age-old stereotypes, of victims and winners. Just Femme is a voluntary and non-profit venture. It accepts relevant articles from women writers above 16 years of age. If you are interested to be part of this group please send a mail to justfemme.in at gmail.com with the subject "contribute" along with a short introduction of yourself. From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 01:06:47 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 01:06:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <47e122a70803041136n432ee95fgf5fa6629bdde3a9c@mail.gmail.com> dear Kirdar and dear MRSG Ghalib says, "Aasan kahnay ki kartay hain farmaish, Goyam Mushkil va garna goyam muskil " ( The popular demand is that I ought to be simple, but it is difficult for me if it is not difficult) I am certainly not in that league of sheer complexity of gifted poets like Ghalib . They had the capacity to be simple and complex at the same time with an amazing grace. Mr. Kirdar appreciates my neither being Muslim nor Hindu, but he sees me meritless. I also appreciate the idea of my being as neither Hindu nor Muslim, but I see a profound merit in this idea, unlike Mr. Kirdar. Mr. Kirdar writes: " we do not want to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer be creative" Well said, but in the very next line, you demand that I should clarify why I wrote the provocative piece in the first place. You found sheer creativity in that piece, which again is flattering, but irresponsibly provocative. Now please elucidate upon the significance of ' creative' in our lives lest it might be futile to employ ' the creative' in removing the misunderstanding between the two: Hindu and Muslims. It is as you see it. But I understand that only creativity can heal the aching humanity, and I believe, that everybody is potentially a creative person, and must be provided with necessary confidence to realize that. That is political, isn't that? Respected MRGS, your way of looking at History is little different from what I see it should be. I believe, history is a little more deeper than what we learn from history books. It is vastly embedded in the archival material scattered all over the world. I believe, a good historian studies painting, poetry, architecture, garments, food habits besides written material while arriving at a conclusion about a particular historical event or era. Here, again, I guess a good historian never concludes . Now, for example, you know everything everything everything about Islam and its history, then even you can not say what it is as it was. Islam is popular not because of it is history, but because it has its own spirituality which is not different from other forms of religion. Now, the problem is that we have a Maulana sahib from a small town in UP versus a Pandit ji who is a pujari of a small temple in Bihari colony, shahdara, Delhi. Now both of them have their own opinions on history, and their own ways of observing religion; and both have ample time and energy to spew venom on Taslima Nasreen and MF Hussain respectively. Now, how come I am supposed to limit my creativity ( of whatever intensity ) to suit the above so called representative faces of Hindus and Muslims. I have my own way of looking at history and mythology. I like some fragments, here and there. I mix the fragments with my own imagination and do something else and call it my own religion. I am a boring artists, you may like my product or not, but I believe that every body should indulge in this kind of chutnification ( a phrase coined by Salman Rushdie ). Two imaginary characters Ajay and Raju are also free to mix what they want. Why Ajay and Raju should listen to you only, and not to me. What is interesting that they have their own way of looking at things, and we rarely care to know what it is. In short, it is between me and my subject. It is like between Prophet Mohammad and the Mountain. It is like between the poet Valmiki and Lord Ram. What is between you and me should have some intensity, if not as intense as that, and less than that is a time wasting prose. love and regards inder salim On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 8:44 PM, MRSG wrote: > Mr. Kirdar Singh, how do you know MRSG is a hindu? What I have written on > Muhammad (marrying own adopted son's wife and Ayesha's affair in the desert) > is quite well known. Muhammad's marriage to his adopted son's former wife, > Zaynab bint Jashplease can be found in any standard text on this subject. > How Ayesha got lost in desert and then to clear her up from charges, > Muhammad got a new revealation - these are well discussed issues. Please > take a little pain to find those. > Thanks > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kirdar singh" > To: "inder salim" ; ; > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > Dear Vivek > I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that > some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" > folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and > you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for > you and vis a versa. > > Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I > don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past > and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language > and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's > following phrase very seriously: > > "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this." > > Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his > religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a > Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the > fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a > "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a > further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of > such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. > Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which > you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer > creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). > > But I think that's what most of us don't want to do -we do not want > to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer > be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned, > Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings > first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you > may disagree. > > Kirdar > > (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got > the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) > > > > > On 3/3/08, inder salim wrote: > > Dear all, > > Let us ask ourselves, why we don't get provoked by the rampant > > corruption, environmental disaster, violence against women, rabid > > communalism, sheer poverty etc etc.., > > > > How to define a proud Indian? > > > > Who is a good Hindu, a good Muslim a good Christian in a societal set > > up where every other commodity is full of adulteration, and where lies > > and dishonesty rules the roost, and where success is measured by the > > brand of the car you own. Thus, tell me please, how to describe > > madness even. > > > > Yes, mob violence. Don't we often indulge in it, with this excuse that > > the law lets these petty thieves off the hook, so death sentenced is > > announced and executed instantly. No Karuna rasa ( compassion ) in a > > great country called Bharat, but how to understand this country which > > is plagued with lawlessness. Of course the law efficiently functions > > when a decent looking judge sits across a poor petty under trail > > thief. And when the frustrated thief manages to throw shit on Judge's > > face, we loose no time to show sympathy with the learned judge. The > > petty thief is dirt, simply a nuisance. The rest of us are genteel and > > decent citizens of shining India. > > > > And this John Nobody called inder salim is pointing out all this for > > his own personal greed. ( I am in no mood to forgive myself even, > > seriously ) > > > > Now how to define a sacred space in our country. Is not Delhi's > > Akshardam Temple a land grab? And why only that, most of temples , > > gurudwaras and mosques are erected illegally on government lands. > > The land which belongs to the millions of landless of people of India. > > Just try it out, place a Rama, Sita and Hanuman Image under a Pipal > > tree, and next weak you have a temple with a space for a Panwari > > corner shop. > > > > And who am I to ask, why Rama and Krishna are always clean shaved in > > every sacred calendar. Of course, that is the people's choice, but do > > they care to lift such an images from a gutter if a they happens to > > see it there. None. This example, can be applied to all believers. But > > if somebody, creatively adds to the existing imagery, then these very > > individual join their heads to set ablaze anything that comes their > > way. This way, they sometimes come to power even, and that they are > > free to explore this possibility endlessly. And when this does not > > work for them then a UP-Bihari worker becomes garbage in Mumbai. > > > > Just as an example, I don't think it is shameful to talk about the > > number of wives of Rama's father King Dashratha. Epics are made of > > such stuff, we know, but when a believer criticizes a Muslaman for > > their right to have more than one wife, then King Dashtratha too comes > > in picture. And now I am the villain because I pointed it out, Is not > > this absurd? > > > > I have seen some Muslim friends often talking about the greatness of > > Islam, True there is some degree of positive thought in every sacred > > scripture, but how come Hindu-Caste like thing exists in Muslim world > > as wel. And if I point it out, I am the villain, Is not this absurd ? > > > > It is often said, that Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses gave birth to > > Muslim Terrorism, and of course our own MF Hussain sired BajrangDal, > > VHP and Co. It was this stupid Taslima Nasreen who exposed the pseudo > > -liberalism of Bengali Left. The world would have been a peaceful > > place to live in if these Salman Rushdies, Hussains and Taslimas were > > not born. > > > > The challenge indeed is how to keep on talking to other without > > dislodging the decorum of hurling words on each other. I believe, > > there is no full stop in a discourse… > > > > What do you think dear Mr. Kirdar? > > > > With love and regards > > is > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 8:29 PM, kirdar singh > > wrote: > > > I am extremely pained to read these mails which in the name of free > > > expression provoke people beyong their limits - as it is the sanity on > > > this list is hanging by a thin thread. > > > > > > MRSG simply needed an excuse to bring out his latent hatred and > > > deep-rooted bias against Mohammad and Islam, but I would blame Inder > > > Salim equally for starting it all. I would humbly request you not to > > > continue your story any further - it would be better if you stand on > > > the road and narrate it to the people. > > > > > > (By the way, MRSG, who told you Mohammad had a son?) > > > > > > Kirdar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, MRSG wrote: > > > > Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and > > > make > > > > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife > > > Ayesha > > > > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "inder salim" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:55 AM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the banks of dead River Yamuna, a place adjacent to Nigmbodh > > > Gaht ( > > > > > Crematorium in Delhi) > > > > > > > > > > Raju ( worker at Crematorium ): Do you know why they say Ram Ram > > > , Ram > > > > > > > > > > Ram when they bring a 'laash' ( corpse) for burning. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay ( another worker at Crematorium ): How do I know? I never > > > went to > > > > > school, But you gandu ( Gandu is someone who get his ass > > > screwed, > > > > > rather relishes the act ), you also don't know. > > > > > > > > > > Raju : but I saw it on the Television. A Guru said that people > > > call > > > > > Ram Ram to come to take this ' laash' corpse back . > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: And he comes and takes it back.( hands over his ganja > > > chilam to > > > > > Raju) > > > > > > > > > > Raju: Yes, because everybody is a Ravana, and on behalf of the > > > dead ( > > > > > laash ) , people say Ram, Ram. Because Ravana also > > > uttered Ram > > > > > Ram > > > > > when he died by the arrow of Bhagwan Rama. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: Aray Chootiya, Ravana was a Gandu. He kidnapped Sita Mata. > > > But > > > > > how are we Ravana then. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: I don't know, but this is how, a guru maharaj said on the > > > > > Television. ( returns back his chilam to Ajay ) > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: He too is Gandu > > > > > > > > > > Raju: Look, we also do bad things. That is why. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: which bad thing I do ? Ma-ki choot, ( mother's vagina), we > > > are > > > > > dying for a two square meals, and you say that we are > > > bad. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: We are not bad, but this is what he said. Achha, tell me, > > > don't > > > > > you go to sleep with a Gashti ( prostitute ) living > > > just > > > > > over there. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: yes, of course, we both go, so what. We pay her. All the > > > rich > > > > > people do it, and so what is wrong with it. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: No I don't say it like that, but do you know that the girl > > > you > > > > > sleep with was kidnapped once. > > >> > > > > > > Ajay: How do I know? I never get time to ask the silly > > > questions, > > > > > behenchod, you ejaculate quickly, and that is why you get > > > time > > > > > to ask > > > > > all these questions. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: No, I was thinking, is not a little Ravana in all of us > > > who > > > > > fucks the kidnapped girl. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: Aray, chootiaya, the prostitute we sleep with is happy, > > > not > > > > > like Sita Mata who wanted to return back to meet her > > > husband > > > > > and God > > > > > Rama. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: But, imagine, if she was kidnapped at a very tender age, > > > and > > > > > think who would have come to rescue her. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: yes, you are right, I never thought like this. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: and see the unfortunate thing, Sita Mata was banished by > > > Lord > > > > > Rama because people questioned her purity while in > > > > > possession of evil > > > > > Ravana. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: And he really banished her? > > > > > > > > > > Raju: Yes, when she was pregnant, and helpless. > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: And gandu people say Ram Ram Ram Ram when some one dies. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: They should say Sita Sita Sita Sita > > > > > > > > > > Ajay: Array, behenchod, you are a mind eater, and that is why I > > > don't > > > > > smoke with you. Now, before we go, make one last chilam. > > > > > This world is > > > > > a fucking place. Forget who is saying what and why. > > > > > > > > > > Raju: You are right, meray yaar ( my friend ), give me the > > > light... > > > > > > > > > > (2) > > > > > > > > > > Just quenched my thirst, but I am thirsty. Who am I? I am not > > > > > thirsty, but I am about to quench my thirst. Who am I? > > > > > Just, writing lines like these makes me a poet, you know, but > > > poetry > > > > > is deeper than-this-than-this known outburst of words loaded > > > > > artificially with a deeper question on desire. > > > > > > > > > > Poetry is perhaps, oscillating between the mouth which eats > > > bread and > > > > > the anus which makes more space for the mouth to eat more. But > > > it just > > > > > happens that a mirror like thing sits in front of our eyes in > > > such a > > > > > way that we often end up seeing just the mouth-eating-the-bread > > > area. > > > > > > > > > > Rest of it is often dismissed as shit, you know. > > > > > > > > > > Even now, this typing these words is at the level of a projected > > > > > profile, the same which shows each one of us our upper frontals > > > called > > > > > 'faces' in the mirror. So this activity of writing words at the > > > best > > > > > is a meaningful time pass. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, only if a plain reflector piece would accompany the bread > > > piece I > > > > > eat, which if smoothly journeys the alimentary canal and beyond, > > > then > > > > > I can expect to see the truer nature of words. But that is > > > unlikely, > > > > > since almost everything what we imagine is innocently handed > > > over to > > > > > words, which shapes it accordingly to its own set of rules, let > > > alone > > > > > this impossible task of devouring a mechanism that links each > > > known > > > > > with the each unknown; so that we can draw the circle, which is > > > the > > > > > wisest of all. > > > > > > > > > > It almost sounds that I want to pick up words-born-in-shit with > > > > > forceps, like thread-worms from the lower colon, and arrange > > > them on a > > > > > black slate outside. They of course will dancingly speak a > > > language, > > > > > but sooner they will cease to be. > > > > > > > > > > By now, you saw, how desperately I try to write a good poem with > > > the > > > > > stock of words already available with me, which I naively > > > believe is > > > > > vital for the survival of a human being, Forget the poem, all I > > > > > managed to do is to humiliate the being of words, words which > > > perhaps, > > > > > betrayed me in the past; so this character assassination of > > > words. Is > > > > > that true? > > > > > > > > > > No, the mask, has all the reasons to celebrate. If the mask > > > jumps, so > > > > > does the thing behind the mask. Two words written by two lovers > > > can > > > > > hug, kiss and make love even. One word can fall in love with > > > other > > > > > word. One word can impregnate the other, and become a mother of > > > > > children- words. The words, after a little growth, can sit > > > around the > > > > > mother-word and listen a bed time story even. > > > > > > > > > > So, accordingly, one can write about a daily wage labourer, who > > > makes > > > > > his living by working hard under the Indian exploitative > > > conditions. > > > > > He curses his chootiya fate for being so, but believes that God > > > is > > > > > supreme, and it is He who has written his destiny like that. Ah, > > > this > > > > > business of writing the fates of others. I should not, if I too > > > > > believe that God has indeed written his fate, then why on earth > > > I need > > > > > to imitate that silly habit of writing fates of others. But then > > > I > > > > > have reasons to write about this poor man. If indeed God has > > > written > > > > > his fate, then I should re-write his fate. But I firmly believe > > > that > > > > > God does not exist, and if so, then nothing was ever written for > > > us > > > > > mortals on this earth. We collectively own our past. Our > > > misfortunes, > > > > > if any, were written by the billions and billions of our > > > predecessors. > > > > > And since they are living within us as well, we are experiencing > > > their > > > > > fates too. Are not we a conglomeration of echoes and traces of > > > our > > > > > past? Ontologically we are moving to and fro, so we may write > > > a word > > > > > or not even, the fact of being of our existence remains =85 > > > > > > > > > > ( to be continued.. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From vivek at sarai.net Wed Mar 5 02:03:00 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:03:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> <73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f9494082d7@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70803031013i1dc2412dpddf2d5d355acf1bf@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CDB1FC.9060306@sarai.net> Dear Kirdar and Mohit, (incidentally my "bullshit" folder is reserved essentially for people who habitually post more than two repetitive, content-less mails in a day, to this list) Firstly to Kirdar: you say you have a problem with the "language and the symbolism" of Inder Salim's posting, although you still do not give direct quotations from the piece to explain yourself. As a result, I still have no idea what you mean by symbolism. Please explain, giving direct quotations please, what about the *symbolism * you consider offensive, especially religiously offensive, which is what you are implying. This is not self evident, because I especially do not find any offensive religious references in Inder's posting. (Apart from the fact that, in keeping with many ancient South Asian philosophical traditions, he denies the existence of god. Nothing new or offensive in that.) Only Ravana is called a gandu-- and while some other south indians on this list may, and perhaps should, take offense to such outright denigration of our great hero, Rama, on the other side, is at all points referred to by Inder Salim as "lord Rama" or suchlike. And of course, Rama's moral ambiguity in relation to Sita is not Inder's invention but lies at the very core of Valmiki's account itself. Valmiki was a poet, and thus not so clear cut, and far more willing to admit to ambiguity than some of his stupid, literal-minded followers today. As Ramanujan argues: if we truly respect and love the traditions of the Ramayan, then we should want to celebrate the dizzying multiplicity of versions and interpretations. Incidentally, it is only homosexuals that ought to be offended by Inder Salim's putting the word "gandu". However (I could be wrong) something in the post tells me that Inder has perhaps nothing against homosexuals, and maybe, that he "rather relishes" them. So on the question of whether certain words should be used on this list, I think we disagree, Kirdar. I could, if needed, go through each instance of a "bad word" in Inder's posting and justify its use there. I doubt very much that the crematorium workers in Inder's story would talk like high society butterflies. They might well use ritual insults to add colour and rhythm to their sentences-- we all know swearing can be an art form, although some of us are not so skilled in our own use! I have no problem with such words appearing in our texts the way they appear habitually in the mouths of our people-- I would be against us using those words against each other of course, but that is a different question altogether. For a neuroscientist's view on the subject, take a look at this: http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/15-09/pl_print (I read the whole essay online, but I can't find it now-- can anyone?) But I do still request an explanation *with supporting quotes* that tells what about Inder's "symbolism" you find offensive. Please. And to Mohit-- you ask what made me "suddenly jump in this issue". Well, I could ask you the same thing, but I already know the answer: we both jumped in suddenly because everyone has a right to jump in, and does so, on this list. Although, if I may say so, I feel I jumped in a little less suddenly than you, and I jumped in because you jumped in, and because I felt that Inder's posting was not being read carefully enough. However, here lies a mystery. Kirdar says, in his reply below, that he has "no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story" and that he even "appreciates" parts of it. Furthermore, he argues that Inder's note has been "simply misunderstood" as a provocation. How true! So in other words, he agrees with me that there is nothing, when considered closely, to take religious offence from Inder's posting. (What he objects to, I guess, is art. Like Plato, he would wish to exile the poets from the republic.) Mohit, for his part, insists that he has not "said anything against [Inder's] posting" -- which suggests that he has no problems with it and does not take any offence from it all. This means that I was wrong, and I apologise for assuming that Kirdar and Mohit were offended. Going by the quotes above, at least, neither of them found any problematic religious offence in Inder's post-- which is exactly as it should be! Perhaps we might now begin talking about the actual substance of Inder's post? Time out Vivek kirdar singh wrote: > Dear Vivek > I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that > some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" > folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and > you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for > you and vis a versa. > > Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I > don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past > and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language > and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's > following phrase very seriously: > > "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this." > > Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his > religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a > Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the > fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a > "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a > further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of > such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. > Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which > you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer > creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). > > But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want > to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer > be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned, > Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings > first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you > may disagree. > > Kirdar > > (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got > the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) > > > > From vivek at sarai.net Wed Mar 5 02:24:48 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:24:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <000001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0@MRAY> Message-ID: <47CDB718.2030505@sarai.net> Oh, and for the record, I'd like to say that I personally don't feel very offended by the content of Mohit's statement below-- it is not particularly poetic or insightful and sounds to me like the verbal equivalent of the barking of a guard dog, but that's a different matter, and no problem as long as the grrr-ruf-ruffing doesn't disturb the peace throughout the night. No need to be alarmed-- there are fewer criminals to bite on the streets than we might think. May I be permitted to say that I found Salman Rushdie's critique far more eloquent, imaginative and full of effort than yours, Mohit? I love the phrase "enjoys herself with others", though. V. MRSG wrote: > Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make > it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha > enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. > From mrsg at vsnl.com Wed Mar 5 10:18:11 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:18:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <"00 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY> <47CDB718.2030505@sarai.net> Message-ID: <001d01c87e87$058d7320$0201a8c0@MRAY> Dear Vivek, you have expected from me a critique like "Salman Rushdie's critique far more eloquent, imaginative and full of effort". Whether Inder's posting deserves that or whether I am capable of such effort can be set aside for the time being. But your sublime wish has been 'poetically' expressed comparing my interaction with "verbal equivalent of the barking of a guard dog and no problem as long as the grrr-ruf-ruffing doesn't disturb the peace throughout the night. " . Barring the animal rights activist, I think anyone with human sense would not much appreciate this poetry. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vivek Narayanan" To: "MRSG" Cc: "inder salim" ; "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > Oh, and for the record, I'd like to say that I personally don't feel very > offended by the content of Mohit's statement below-- it is not > particularly poetic or insightful and sounds to me like the verbal > equivalent of the barking of a guard dog, but that's a different matter, > and no problem as long as the grrr-ruf-ruffing doesn't disturb the peace > throughout the night. No need to be alarmed-- there are fewer criminals > to bite on the streets than we might think. > > May I be permitted to say that I found Salman Rushdie's critique far more > eloquent, imaginative and full of effort than yours, Mohit? I love the > phrase "enjoys herself with others", though. > > V. > > MRSG wrote: >> Waiting for a story on Mohammad who rapes his own son's wife and make >> it legal so that everybody can do that. Ofcourse his youngest wife Ayesha >> enjoys herself with others in the desert to teach him a lesson. >> > From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 11:41:50 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 11:41:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book Message-ID: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review of India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 ------------------------------------------ A Chronicle for India Shining by Sanjay Kak * Biblio* July-August 2007 Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the more reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book India after Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from it's title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's Largest Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end papers, which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to have been preparation for the writing of this book. So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India (after Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, but for now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny Walker kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of the Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of things to come. There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian arrives at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is that all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this republic is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and 'victory', turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or place in human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly diverse, so vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, or addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the way from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, Nagaland, Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a very long list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian nation has been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has not even appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success story of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, but Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the main, narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. From Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative prediction ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has had elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for which he reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since 1951 is celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer are a "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are offered in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with forty-three different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and sealing wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were needed…". To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied with the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, and indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with parliamentary democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also means that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here focused on those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental questions raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites in the 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, or indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose his way, and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, and Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over retrospective readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of what is known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for this is the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by training and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this ascribed lack of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly unchallenged – canvas. This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar papers) the bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at the back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. With the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, Tanika Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst others), why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this book alone bravely sets out to fill? Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his dexterous use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns have been rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too he locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to the darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group of leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the positive functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance from a practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front rebels appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of Lungleh by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the Indian State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite businessman, JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of the Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple games, sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt that this qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to encounter, he has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of what is described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living away from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer from UP who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's museums, its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true for this exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the processes of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey from village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did that worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills began to shut down in the 1980s?) And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 miles the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the great canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own terms, we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen of contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for both the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years on) or for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green Revolution'.) At such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling through the brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less convincing. Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue or event that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of some future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the Indian Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in 2007? Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered with insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of Delhi. Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such narratives can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless we can contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and understand the nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply left with arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur Shastri, second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri has the stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his distaste of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in his treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK Patil, a former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha and direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the dismissal of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of the "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass movement "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, Indira Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have been better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin the blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between Indira Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to 1987. Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from 'history' to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the thirty-year rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs a generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can place those events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and clamour of the present". The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at once too strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section from 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history actually inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some things: the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati and the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the International Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the horizon of this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, and then his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries become tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections called 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through Caste, the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the conflicts in Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there was also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's movement in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights (or perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of it about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who we are told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to demand justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader herself engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of her flock". This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, engaged in articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, and in case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to either Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even make it to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the 21st century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds of people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front ranks of the struggle against neo-imperialism. Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's opinions of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a curious fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own unseemly fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few exceptions, even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the first edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, from Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, this disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, and this is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our times. Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their movement possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which the resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are your 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the India Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going to go beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to 1987? Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand the phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, The History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – will continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to day history of the little in this country. In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of one grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. Impatient with the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to it's end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's peculiar obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru was of course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has "written a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the same insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar Lohia, Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, Mayawati, or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram scrapes through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to High School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in the New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: "K Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a thick-set man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny Liston and the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description of former President APJ Abdul Kalam. If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my reading of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the crucial last two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even the minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws together what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to make the astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour its commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" Neither needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges in independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at the Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a single, stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. Both proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a whole". Guha is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the innocence of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the "single, stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? After all, the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, is it not? At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of land by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of 2006, "a group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to open fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway and held up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking whom, and how? Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand Singh Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was a harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists taking up the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never Militants, always "Terrorists". The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline the inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra Guha's History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter – leave alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early 1990s in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of occupation, popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled easily with the locals, and were given refuge before or after their actions". Once again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which scholars the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the slipshod words of television anchors. And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in the aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state on India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves wished to merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, with its fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of a Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the Islamic State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – speaking as a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists there will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely ahistoric assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged by historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that only in three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" does the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and only here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then does this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy people are substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm bells? When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it really reaches fifty-fifty? >From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that the author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to have coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the grand purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled margins: first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others who are somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in the celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important marker. It demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be taken seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is fast forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost mathematically calibrated cowardice. What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of the 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy hosannas to India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our 'shining' democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set India up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, China 0). So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and oppression are made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, Ramachandra Guha emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to CEOs and investors at the next Davos. (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent film Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom in Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Mar 5 13:14:05 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:44:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, No doubt the book by Guha about "The histroy " is worth a good read but it has its own bad portions as well, which are not exactly the history but only perspective of a writers look at history, partial to the core. Any history to be accurate in journalising it, must have the true facts retrieved from the archives of the period, that is the period in consideration, is India after gandhi, from 1948 to 2007. All democratically governed nations in the world have de-classified the archives of governance and the classified documents as confidentia are declassified as open, after a certain time frame, like say those of after 1948 have been declassified after 20 or thirty years. India is one nation where beauracracy and political class does not believe in tranparency in governance and hence is every thing is classified as confidential and secret. The nett result of this is the omissions and commissions during the actions of governance good or bad actions in governance are classified as top secret, confidential with lame excuse of national safety, where as in actual practise it is only to shield the corruption and corrupt practises in governance., unethical and immoral acts of the individual in governance by this shroud of classification of secrecy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wali Arifi Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:42 am Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book To: reader-list > In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's > review of > India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > ------------------------------------------ > > A Chronicle for India Shining > > by Sanjay Kak > * > Biblio* July-August 2007 > > Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the > morereticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new > book India after > Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from > it'stitle page, where it announces itself as "The History of the > World's Largest > Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > papers,which tells us that the author's entire career seems in > retrospect to have > been preparation for the writing of this book. > > So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in > India (after > Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he > agrees, but for > now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor > Johny Walker > kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years > of the > Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of > things to > come. > > There are some notable features of the paths by which The > Historian arrives > at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first > is that > all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > republicis co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' > and 'victory', > turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time > or place in > human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > diverse, so > vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and > literature, or > addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". > > I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all > the way > from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > Nagaland,Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the > head of a very long > list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian > nation has > been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice > has not even > appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real > success story > of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for > approval, but > Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in > the main, > narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary > politics. From > Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > predictionever made for India's future as a democracy, and then > since India has had > elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. > > No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections > for which he > reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since > 1951 is > celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no > longer are a > "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian > life, a > festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics > are offered > in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > forty-three > different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > sealingwax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than > were needed…". > > To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be > preoccupied with > the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of > democracy, and > indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any > serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > parliamentarydemocracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes- > all bias, also means > that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here > focused on > those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > Opposition. But when he has to deal with themore fundamental > questionsraised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by > the Naxalites in the > 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the > 1970s, or > indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose > his way, > and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in > methodology, and > Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > retrospectivereadings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, > 1957, in terms of what is > known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for > this is > the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by > trainingand temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have > "restrictedthemselves to the period before Independence". So > combine this ascribed lack > of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' > sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > unchallenged– canvas. > > This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some > primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar > papers) the > bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two > generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes > at the > back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be > so. With > the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni > Kothari, Tanika > Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot > (amongst others), > why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that > this book > alone bravely sets out to fill? > > Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > dexteroususe of archival material, and over the years his > newspaper columns have been > rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here > too he > locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned > to the > darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a > group of > leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the > positivefunctions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the > distinctionbetween capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's > significance from a > practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front > rebelsappear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the > strafing of Lungleh > by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by > the Indian > State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > businessman,JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the > dark days of the > Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that > "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple > games,sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't > doubt that this > qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > encounter, he > has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant > rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance > of what is > described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. > "Living away > from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm > labourer from UP > who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the > city's museums, > its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true > for this > exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > processesof rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into > the journey from > village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where > did that > worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills > began to > shut down in the 1980s?) > > And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for > 150 miles > the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the > greatcanal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in > its own terms, > we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating > oxygen of > contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, > for both > the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 > years on) or > for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > Revolution'.) At > such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling > through the > brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and > selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > convincing.Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day > about an issue or event > that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and > biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought > of some > future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the > IndianExpress and forming a narrative of what is happening in > India in 2007? > > Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is > peppered with > insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out > of Delhi. > Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > narrativescan be useful to the historian, but also highly > problematic, unless we can > contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > understand the > nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply > left with > arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > Shastri,second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive > appraisal by the > Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine > Shastri has the > stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > > Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > distasteof politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most > clearly in his > treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK > Patil, a > former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of > Satyagraha and > direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > dismissalof a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar > agitation is both > unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions > of the > "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > movement"without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". > And finally, Indira > Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would > have been > better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to > pin the > blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for > imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between > IndiraGandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and > artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through > to 1987. > Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > 'history'to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly > cites the thirty-year > rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also > needs a > generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can > place those > events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and > clamour of the present". > The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is > at once too > strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the > section from > 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > actuallyinform our understanding? Should this method not prepare > us for some things: > the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram- > Mayawati and > the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > InternationalFinancial Institutions? Why then does each of these > appear on the horizon of > this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, > and then > his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries > becometedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book > listing of > significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections > called'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us > through Caste, > the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the > conflicts in > Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also > demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with > "there was > also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > movementin 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than > Women's rights (or > perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much > of it > about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the > Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", > who we are > told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to > demandjustice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The > leader herself > engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings > of her > flock". > > This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, > engaged in > articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent > history, and in > case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to > eitherVogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably > never even make it > to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in > the 21st > century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the > hundreds of > people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the > front ranks > of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > opinionsof Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have > always had a curious > fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > unseemlyfascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a > few exceptions, > even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the > firstedition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of > power, from > Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is > symptomatic, this > disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and > powerless, and this > is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating > our times. > Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed > journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and > Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao > Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > movementpossible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, > not in the > struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in > which the > resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are > your'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of > the India > Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they > going to go > beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 > to 1987? > Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to > understand the > phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do > that, The > History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – > willcontinually be surprised by the events and consequences of the > day to day > history of the little in this country. > > In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale > of one > grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > Impatient with > the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it > to it's > end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's > peculiarobsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. > Jawaharlal Nehru was of > course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has > "writtena Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the > reasons why the same > insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar Lohia, > Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, > Mayawati,or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, > because he has > "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram scrapes > through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to High > School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity > in the > New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller > description: "K > Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a > thick-set > man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny > Liston and > the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining > description of > former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my > readingof the book, there would be little to worry about. But > armed with the > dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the > crucial last > two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without > even the > minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws > togetherwhat he thinks of as "the two critical events that… > defined the epoch of > competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid > and the > exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to > make the > astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not > honour its > commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" > Neitherneeds to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he > acknowledges in > independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and > at the > Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a > single,stray act of violence committed by members of the minority > community. Both > proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > whole". Guha > is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > innocenceof the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what > was the "single, > stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? > After all, > the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still > out, is it > not? > At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition > of land > by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of > 2006, "a > group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police > to open > fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the > highway and held > up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking > whom, and > how? > > Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant > Harchand Singh > Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination > was a > harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists > taking up > the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > Militants, always "Terrorists". > The point of bringing together these instances is simply to > underline the > inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by > Ramachandra Guha's > History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent > reporter – leave > alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the > early 1990s > in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > occupation,popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. > Terrorists mingled easily > with the locals, and were given refuge before or after their > actions". Once > again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which > scholarsthe world over are cracking their brains over, slip off > like the slipshod > words of television anchors. > > And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India > in the > aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic > state on > India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves > wished to > merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the > RSS, with its > fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal > of a > Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of > the Islamic > State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – > speaking as > a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan > exists there > will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > ahistoricassertion make its place into a history? And then remain > unchallenged by > historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit > that only in > three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian > nation" does > the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, > and only > here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How > then does > this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy > people are > substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm > bells?When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? > When it really > reaches fifty-fifty? > > From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that the > author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to > havecoincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's > LargestDemocracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not > with the grand > purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's > troubled margins: > first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others > who are > somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join > in the > celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > marker. It > demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to > be taken > seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is fast > forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > mathematicallycalibrated cowardice. > > What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations > of the > 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > hosannas to > India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > 'shining'democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the > desire to set India > up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, > China 0). > So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > oppression are > made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > Ramachandra Guha > emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to > CEOs and > investors at the next Davos. > > (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose > recent film > Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of > freedom in > Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Mar 5 13:18:30 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:48:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <47CDB1FC.9060306@sarai.net> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <"00 0001c87d01$0e864920$0201a8c0"@MRAY> <"73eb60090803030659q1d1df84cg52c635f94940 82d7"@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> <47CDB1FC.9060306@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi, it is good that society has many such vivekis to have bullshit folders to collect the same. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vivek Narayanan Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:03 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju To: kirdar singh Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Kirdar and Mohit, > > (incidentally my "bullshit" folder is reserved essentially for > people > who habitually post more than two repetitive, content-less mails > in a > day, to this list) > > Firstly to Kirdar: you say you have a problem with the "language > and the > symbolism" of Inder Salim's posting, although you still do not > give > direct quotations from the piece to explain yourself. As a > result, I > still have no idea what you mean by symbolism. Please explain, > giving > direct quotations please, what about the *symbolism * you consider > offensive, especially religiously offensive, which is what you are > implying. This is not self evident, because I especially do not > find > any offensive religious references in Inder's posting. (Apart > from the > fact that, in keeping with many ancient South Asian philosophical > traditions, he denies the existence of god. Nothing new or > offensive in > that.) Only Ravana is called a gandu-- and while some other south > indians on this list may, and perhaps should, take offense to such > outright denigration of our great hero, Rama, on the other side, > is at > all points referred to by Inder Salim as "lord Rama" or suchlike. > And > of course, Rama's moral ambiguity in relation to Sita is not > Inder's > invention but lies at the very core of Valmiki's account itself. > Valmiki was a poet, and thus not so clear cut, and far more > willing to > admit to ambiguity than some of his stupid, literal-minded > followers > today. As Ramanujan argues: if we truly respect and love the > traditions > of the Ramayan, then we should want to celebrate the dizzying > multiplicity of versions and interpretations. > > Incidentally, it is only homosexuals that ought to be offended by > Inder > Salim's putting the word "gandu". However (I could be wrong) > something > in the post tells me that Inder has perhaps nothing against > homosexuals, > and maybe, that he "rather relishes" them. > > So on the question of whether certain words should be used on this > list, > I think we disagree, Kirdar. I could, if needed, go through each > instance of a "bad word" in Inder's posting and justify its use > there. > I doubt very much that the crematorium workers in Inder's story > would > talk like high society butterflies. They might well use ritual > insults > to add colour and rhythm to their sentences-- we all know swearing > can > be an art form, although some of us are not so skilled in our own > use! I > have no problem with such words appearing in our texts the way > they > appear habitually in the mouths of our people-- I would be against > us > using those words against each other of course, but that is a > different > question altogether. > > For a neuroscientist's view on the subject, take a look at this: > http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/15- > 09/pl_print (I > read the whole essay online, but I can't find it now-- can anyone?) > > But I do still request an explanation *with supporting quotes* > that > tells what about Inder's "symbolism" you find offensive. Please. > > And to Mohit-- you ask what made me "suddenly jump in this issue". > > Well, I could ask you the same thing, but I already know the > answer: we > both jumped in suddenly because everyone has a right to jump in, > and > does so, on this list. Although, if I may say so, I feel I jumped > in a > little less suddenly than you, and I jumped in because you jumped > in, > and because I felt that Inder's posting was not being read > carefully enough. > > However, here lies a mystery. Kirdar says, in his reply below, > that he > has "no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story" and > that he > even "appreciates" parts of it. Furthermore, he argues that > Inder's > note has been "simply misunderstood" as a provocation. How true! > So in > other words, he agrees with me that there is nothing, when > considered > closely, to take religious offence from Inder's posting. (What he > objects to, I guess, is art. Like Plato, he would wish to exile > the > poets from the republic.) Mohit, for his part, insists that he > has not > "said anything against [Inder's] posting" -- which suggests that > he has > no problems with it and does not take any offence from it all. > > This means that I was wrong, and I apologise for assuming that > Kirdar > and Mohit were offended. Going by the quotes above, at least, > neither > of them found any problematic religious offence in Inder's post-- > which > is exactly as it should be! > > Perhaps we might now begin talking about the actual substance of > Inder's > post? > > Time out > Vivek > > kirdar singh wrote: > > Dear Vivek > > I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to > note that > > some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" > > folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary > folder, and > > you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is > vlaueable for > > you and vis a versa. > > > > Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story > - I > > don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past > > and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the > language> and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take > MRSG's> following phrase very seriously: > > > > "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like > this."> > > Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his > > religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim > nor a > > Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy > about the > > fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone > as a > > "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied > with a > > further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of > > such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. > > Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which > > you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer > > creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). > > > > But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want > > to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no > longer> be creative. All the problems of this world (which you > have mentioned, > > Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings > > first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you > > may disagree. > > > > Kirdar > > > > (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got > > the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 13:19:55 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 13:19:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803042349r315e5ecevda9cacbe042ba8e4@mail.gmail.com> Who is Sanjay Kak ? On 3/5/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Hi, > No doubt the book by Guha about "The histroy " is worth a good read but > it has its own bad portions as well, which are not exactly the history but > only perspective of a writers look at history, partial to the core. > Any history to be accurate in journalising it, must have the true facts > retrieved from the archives of the period, that is the period in > consideration, is India after gandhi, from 1948 to 2007. > > All democratically governed nations in the world have de-classified the > archives of governance and the classified documents as confidentia are > declassified as open, after a certain time frame, like say those of after > 1948 have been declassified after 20 or thirty years. India is one nation > where beauracracy and political class does not believe in tranparency in > governance and hence is every thing is classified as confidential and > secret. > > The nett result of this is the omissions and commissions during the > actions of governance good or bad actions in governance are classified as > top secret, confidential with lame excuse of national safety, where as in > actual practise it is only to shield the corruption and corrupt practises in > governance., unethical and immoral acts of the individual in governance by > this shroud of classification of secrecy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wali Arifi > Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:42 am > Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > To: reader-list > > > In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's > > review of > > India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > > by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > A Chronicle for India Shining > > > > by Sanjay Kak > > * > > Biblio* July-August 2007 > > > > Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > > newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the > > morereticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new > > book India after > > Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from > > it'stitle page, where it announces itself as "The History of the > > World's Largest > > Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > > papers,which tells us that the author's entire career seems in > > retrospect to have > > been preparation for the writing of this book. > > > > So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in > > India (after > > Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he > > agrees, but for > > now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor > > Johny Walker > > kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > > historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years > > of the > > Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of > > things to > > come. > > > > There are some notable features of the paths by which The > > Historian arrives > > at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first > > is that > > all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > > republicis co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' > > and 'victory', > > turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time > > or place in > > human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > > diverse, so > > vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and > > literature, or > > addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". > > > > I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all > > the way > > from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > > Nagaland,Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the > > head of a very long > > list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian > > nation has > > been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > > managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice > > has not even > > appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > > > Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real > > success story > > of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > > politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for > > approval, but > > Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in > > the main, > > narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary > > politics. From > > Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > > predictionever made for India's future as a democracy, and then > > since India has had > > elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. > > > > No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections > > for which he > > reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since > > 1951 is > > celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no > > longer are a > > "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian > > life, a > > festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > > evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > > colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics > > are offered > > in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > > forty-three > > different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > > sealingwax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than > > were needed…". > > > > To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be > > preoccupied with > > the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of > > democracy, and > > indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any > > serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > > parliamentarydemocracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes- > > all bias, also means > > that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here > > focused on > > those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > > Opposition. But when he has to deal with themore fundamental > > questionsraised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by > > the Naxalites in the > > 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the > > 1970s, or > > indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose > > his way, > > and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > > > A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in > > methodology, and > > Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > > retrospectivereadings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, > > 1957, in terms of what is > > known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for > > this is > > the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by > > trainingand temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have > > "restrictedthemselves to the period before Independence". So > > combine this ascribed lack > > of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' > > sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > > unchallenged– canvas. > > > > This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some > > primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar > > papers) the > > bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two > > generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes > > at the > > back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be > > so. With > > the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni > > Kothari, Tanika > > Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot > > (amongst others), > > why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that > > this book > > alone bravely sets out to fill? > > > > Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > > dexteroususe of archival material, and over the years his > > newspaper columns have been > > rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here > > too he > > locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned > > to the > > darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a > > group of > > leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the > > positivefunctions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the > > distinctionbetween capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's > > significance from a > > practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front > > rebelsappear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the > > strafing of Lungleh > > by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by > > the Indian > > State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > > businessman,JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the > > dark days of the > > Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > > parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > > > But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > > ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that > > "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > > Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > > publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > > wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple > > games,sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't > > doubt that this > > qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > > impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > > encounter, he > > has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > > confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant > > rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > > > What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance > > of what is > > described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. > > "Living away > > from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm > > labourer from UP > > who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the > > city's museums, > > its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true > > for this > > exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > > processesof rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into > > the journey from > > village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where > > did that > > worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills > > began to > > shut down in the 1980s?) > > > > And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for > > 150 miles > > the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the > > greatcanal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in > > its own terms, > > we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating > > oxygen of > > contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, > > for both > > the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 > > years on) or > > for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > > massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > > Revolution'.) At > > such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling > > through the > > brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > > > Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and > > selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > > convincing.Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day > > about an issue or event > > that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and > > biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought > > of some > > future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the > > IndianExpress and forming a narrative of what is happening in > > India in 2007? > > > > Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is > > peppered with > > insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out > > of Delhi. > > Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > > narrativescan be useful to the historian, but also highly > > problematic, unless we can > > contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > > understand the > > nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply > > left with > > arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > > Shastri,second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive > > appraisal by the > > Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > > exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine > > Shastri has the > > stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > > > > Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > > distasteof politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most > > clearly in his > > treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK > > Patil, a > > former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of > > Satyagraha and > > direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > > dismissalof a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar > > agitation is both > > unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions > > of the > > "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > > movement"without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". > > And finally, Indira > > Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would > > have been > > better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > > 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to > > pin the > > blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for > > imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between > > IndiraGandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > > > For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and > > artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through > > to 1987. > > Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > > 'history'to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly > > cites the thirty-year > > rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also > > needs a > > generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can > > place those > > events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and > > clamour of the present". > > The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is > > at once too > > strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the > > section from > > 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > > actuallyinform our understanding? Should this method not prepare > > us for some things: > > the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram- > > Mayawati and > > the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > > InternationalFinancial Institutions? Why then does each of these > > appear on the horizon of > > this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > > > The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > > dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, > > and then > > his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries > > becometedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book > > listing of > > significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > > 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections > > called'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us > > through Caste, > > the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the > > conflicts in > > Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also > > demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with > > "there was > > also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > > movementin 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than > > Women's rights (or > > perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much > > of it > > about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the > > Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", > > who we are > > told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to > > demandjustice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The > > leader herself > > engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings > > of her > > flock". > > > > This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, > > engaged in > > articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent > > history, and in > > case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to > > eitherVogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably > > never even make it > > to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in > > the 21st > > century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the > > hundreds of > > people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the > > front ranks > > of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > > > Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > > opinionsof Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have > > always had a curious > > fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > > unseemlyfascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a > > few exceptions, > > even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the > > firstedition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of > > power, from > > Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is > > symptomatic, this > > disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and > > powerless, and this > > is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating > > our times. > > Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed > > journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and > > Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao > > Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > > movementpossible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, > > not in the > > struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in > > which the > > resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > > > For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are > > your'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of > > the India > > Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they > > going to go > > beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > > Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 > > to 1987? > > Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to > > understand the > > phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do > > that, The > > History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – > > willcontinually be surprised by the events and consequences of the > > day to day > > history of the little in this country. > > > > In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > > readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > > comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale > > of one > > grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > > Impatient with > > the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it > > to it's > > end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's > > peculiarobsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. > > Jawaharlal Nehru was of > > course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > > physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > > "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > > Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > > engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has > > "writtena Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the > > reasons why the same > > insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar Lohia, > > Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, > > Mayawati,or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, > > because he has > > "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram scrapes > > through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to High > > School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity > > in the > > New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller > > description: "K > > Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a > > thick-set > > man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny > > Liston and > > the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining > > description of > > former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > > > If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my > > readingof the book, there would be little to worry about. But > > armed with the > > dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the > > crucial last > > two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without > > even the > > minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws > > togetherwhat he thinks of as "the two critical events that… > > defined the epoch of > > competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid > > and the > > exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to > > make the > > astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not > > honour its > > commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > > community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" > > Neitherneeds to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > > > He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he > > acknowledges in > > independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and > > at the > > Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a > > single,stray act of violence committed by members of the minority > > community. Both > > proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > > whole". Guha > > is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > > innocenceof the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what > > was the "single, > > stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? > > After all, > > the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still > > out, is it > > not? > > At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition > > of land > > by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of > > 2006, "a > > group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police > > to open > > fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the > > highway and held > > up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking > > whom, and > > how? > > > > Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant > > Harchand Singh > > Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination > > was a > > harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists > > taking up > > the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > > references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > > Militants, always "Terrorists". > > The point of bringing together these instances is simply to > > underline the > > inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by > > Ramachandra Guha's > > History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent > > reporter – leave > > alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the > > early 1990s > > in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > > occupation,popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. > > Terrorists mingled easily > > with the locals, and were given refuge before or after their > > actions". Once > > again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which > > scholarsthe world over are cracking their brains over, slip off > > like the slipshod > > words of television anchors. > > > > And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India > > in the > > aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic > > state on > > India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves > > wished to > > merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the > > RSS, with its > > fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal > > of a > > Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of > > the Islamic > > State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – > > speaking as > > a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan > > exists there > > will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > > ahistoricassertion make its place into a history? And then remain > > unchallenged by > > historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > > > Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit > > that only in > > three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian > > nation" does > > the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, > > and only > > here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How > > then does > > this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy > > people are > > substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > > phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm > > bells?When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? > > When it really > > reaches fifty-fifty? > > > > From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that the > > author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to > > havecoincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's > > LargestDemocracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not > > with the grand > > purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's > > troubled margins: > > first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others > > who are > > somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join > > in the > > celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > > marker. It > > demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to > > be taken > > seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is fast > > forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > > cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > > mathematicallycalibrated cowardice. > > > > What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations > > of the > > 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > > hosannas to > > India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > > emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > > 'shining'democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the > > desire to set India > > up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, > > China 0). > > So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > > oppression are > > made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > > democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > > Ramachandra Guha > > emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > > celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to > > CEOs and > > investors at the next Davos. > > > > (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose > > recent film > > Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of > > freedom in > > Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indianbookscentre at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 13:25:15 2008 From: indianbookscentre at gmail.com (Indian Books Centre) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 13:25:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Books on Indian Music, Dance & Performing Arts Message-ID: <001c01c87e96$46ca8210$0501a8c0@PC2> Books on Indian Music, Dance & Performing Arts Indian Books Centre In the Service of the Scholarly World since 1976 Dear Sir/ Madam, Our company is one of the leading publishers and suppliers of books related to following subjects: Indian Art/ Archaeology; Ayurveda, Tibetan, Unani & Alternative Medicine; Dictionary & Grammar; Religion & Philosophy (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Christianity); Indian Music, Dance & Performing Arts; Sri Lankan Studies; Women & Gender Studies; Yoga & Meditation; Tantra Mantra Yantra & Astrology; Sanskrit & Related Studies. We have over 1000 titles of our own and we stock Rare & more than 50,000 titles. Request a Complete Catalogue Books on Indian Music, Dance & Performing Arts Published under our Imprint: Sri Satguru Publications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Christianity in Indian Dance Forms/ Francis Peter Barboza, Rs. 300 ISBN: 81-7030-249-8, Series: Sri Garib das Oriental Series No. 114 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Companion to Indian Music and Dance/ S.C. Banerji, Rs. 275 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Dance Vocabulary of Classical India/ Mandakranta Bose, Rs. 450 ISBN: 81-7030-439-3, Series: Raga-Nrtya Series No. 8 About the Author Dr. Mandakranta Bose, who has specialized in the Sanskrit tradition of dramaturgy and dance, teaches Religious Studies and Women's Studies at the University of British Columbia, Canada where she is Director of the Centre for India and South Asia Research. She is a fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society, London. Some of her recent works include Speaking of Dance: The Indian Critique; Faces of the Feminine in Ancient, Medieval and Modern India; The Dance Vocabulary of Classical India; and Movement and Mimesis: The Idea Dance in the Sanskritic Tradition. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Encyclopaedia of Indian Music with Special Reference to Ragas, 3 Vols. Bound in one, Rs. 400 ISBN: 81-7030-007-X, Series: Raga-Nrtya Series No. 3 About the Book Indian music, perhaps world's oldest, is full of beauties and mysteries. Unlike Western Music, Indian music is not written down. It is handed down orally from the teacher to his student, from the Guru to his Shishya. To the uninitated terms such as the raga, tala, laya, alap, are exotic Jargaon, Thumri or Bhajan or ghazal equally mysteries. So is the whole range of persuasion and striuged instruments. The three volume work on the theory of Indian Music seeks to unravel the mystery of the unique performing art. It initiates a method of discovery which the reader experiences almost unconsciously as he reads on. Precise notations of important ragas on the pattern of western written music have made musical exercise easy, clear and methodical. Debates and controversies which are essential for the development and flowering of fresh knowledge have been included. Bhatkhande's famous polemics over the interpretation of Ratnakara with Philharmonic Society is a part of the book. Also the suitability of Harmonium as an instrument of classical music is discussed. The concluding volume takes into account the universal notation and tuning for Kheyal instruments adopted by the Philharmonic Society. For anybody interested in performing listening and appreciating Indian Music, the volumes are indispensable source-books. The Wealth of information with practical lessons would delight any lover of music anywhere. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Glossary of Natya Sastra/ Naresh Gupta, Rs. 40 ISBN: 81-7030-394-X, Series: Raga-Nrtya Series No. 7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. Indian Music/Bh.A Pingle, Rs. 400 ISBN: 81-7030-193-9, Series: Raga-Nritya Series No. 1 About the Book To depict Indian music as illustrative of the mind of the ancient Hindus of Puranic, Buddhistic, Sutra & Brahmanaa or Upranishadic periods, as well as of the Indian Muslims of a few centuries in the past, is the task which the present book takes up. The nomenclature used in this book is not pure Sanskrit, but the one in common use among the present musicians. The book is divided into eight chapters. Chapter one is on the History of India Music and the Theory of Music in general; Chapter two deals with the Theory and practice of Musical Sounds; Chapter three gives detals aout the Ragas and their formations; Chapter four deals with the Talas and their formations; Chaper fifth is about the Practical Hints on Indian Music; Chapter six in on a short history of the Musical scale; Chapter seven gives an account of Dancing. The last chapter is an overall summary of the present state of Indian music. A detailed index of the words and three charts on the Ragas have been included in the book for ready reference to the readers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. Kuchipudi Bharatam of Kuchipudi Dance: South Indian Classical Dance Tradition/ K. Uma Rama Rao, Rs. 300 ISBN: 81-7030-291-9, Series: Raga-Nrtya Series No. 5 About the Book Kuchipudi dance is Andhra Pradesh's outstanding contribution toward enrichment of Indian culture. It is one of the classical dance traditions perfomed by male members of Brahmin families in Kuchipudi village, a cultural center in Krishna district, Andhra Pradesh. All classical dance traditions have their specialized terminologies and need them to make themselves understandable. The age old Kuchipudi dance tradition is oneo f them which needs proper projection in this regard. There are several studies on Indian Kuchipudi dance did not get much exposure as it should through publications. For the benefit of art lovers and students of dance, a humble effort has been made, to give glimpses of Kuchipudi Bharatam. The author have tried to introduce the basic classical dance technical terms in the presentation, but yet at the same time have simultaneously tried to outline the super-structure without extensive description. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. Nadagama- The first Sri Lankan Theatre/ M.H. Goonatileka, Rs. 300 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. Natyasastra/ English Trans. by Board of Scholars, Rs. 500 ISBN: 81-7030-134-3, Series: Raga Nrtya Series No. 2 About the Book The Natyasastra deals with the rules relating to theatrical performances, in fact to the science of stage. The science is intended as a guide alike to the poet and the player. The author of this work was Bharata, the sage. It is known as Sutra as it embodies principles set out in a very concise form. The present work consists of 36 chapters. Bharata divides the work broadly into four sections based on abhinayas or modes of conveyance of the theatrical pleasure, called rasa, is pure and differs from the pleasure we derive from the actual contract with the objects of the world which is always mingled with pain. These modes of abhinaya are four,......... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10. Panorama of Indian Dances/ U.S. Krishna Rao, U.K. Chandrabhaga Devi, Rs. 900 ISBN: 81-7030-330-3, Series: Raga-Nrtya Series No. 6 About the Book This dancing has come down to us in two major forms. One of these is close to the nature and life, this form is called 'Tribal' or 'Folk'. The other form is 'Classical'. The 'Tribal' or 'Folk' dancing belong to the people as a whole, where as 'Classical' dancing is for the initiated and for displaying. Some of the topics discussed in the present book are: Birth of Arts and Development, Find Arts, Dance and ancient Hindu society, Indian Dance and Sculpture, Indian Dance and Painting, Indian dance and Music, Musical Instruments, Indian Dance and Literature, Indian Dance and Drama, Historical development of Indian classical Dances, Bharatanatya, Kathakali, Kathak, Manipuri, Kuchipudi, Bhagavata Mela, Odissi, Mohini Attam, Technical terms of Bharata Natya, Standing Poses, Qualities of a female Dancer, Qualities of a female Dancer, Tala and their classification, Psychology of Rhythm in Dance, Folk dances of Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Kerala,Gujarat, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Orissa, Bengal, Assam, Punjab, Himachal Pradesh, and Kashmir, Creation of Indian Art, Dances in Modern Times, Tradition and Innovation, Performing Arts in Twenty first Century, Conclusion and References. This book is virtually an encyclopaedia of Indian dances. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11. Saman Chants- In Theory and Present Practice with an Audio Cassette/ G.H. Tarlekar, Rs. 400 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Sanskrit Theatre and Stagecraft/E.W. Marasinghe. Delhi, Satguru, 1989, xxvi, 568 p., ISBN 81-7030-176-9. Rs.500 Contents: Introduction. 1. Natya - its meaning. 2. Dramatic shows in ancient India. 3. Actors, audience and critics. 4. The playhouse. 5. Dramatic preliminaries. 6. The music of the theatre. 7. Rasa and Abhinaya. 8. Characters. 9. Histrionic representation. 10. Theatrical technique. 11. Extraneous representation. 12. Vrtti or mood. 13. Types of drama. 14. Time of staging dramatic shows. Appendices. Bibliography. Index. "This is the most comprehensive study done in recent years on the stagecraft of the ancient Indian theatre. Admirably written with a living theatre in mind, the wrok in its fourteen chapters unfolds the mysteries of Sanskrit theatre production with particular emphasis on the playhouse, the role of the curtain, the dramatic preliminaries the employment of music, character-types, historic art, theatrical techniques and extraneous representation, all of which have receives but scant attention of scholars of Sanskrit drama but so vitally important to a proper understanding of the way in which Sanskrit plays took physical shape on the stage. Chapter 13 is devoted to a detailed discussion on the different theatrical genres with a clear distinction drawn between rupaka and uparupaka forms. "The author dispels the fallacy that the Sanskrit theatre catered to the nobility and the literati alone and remained from the very beginning monopoly of the royal court. The reader will soon realize that Sanskrit plays, despite royal patronage, served as a form of popular entertainment throughout its long history from about the dawn of the Christian era at least up to the close of the first millennium. Its emphasis on the theatrical aspects of Sanskrit drama makes this book much different from what has hitherto been written and published about this most intriguing theatre." Thanking You Naresh Gupta Indian Books Centre 40/5, Shakti Nagar, Delhi- 110007 Ph No. 91-11-2384 4930 2384 6497 Fax No.91-11-2384 7336 E-mail indianbookscentre at gmail.com ibcindia at vsnl.com Website: http://www.indianbookscentre.com * Postage charges extra. * These Prices are for INDIA only. * This cancels all our previous lists. * Prices are subject to change without any prior notice. We also invite Manuscripts for Publishing on the above Subjects. Thanking You Naresh Gupta Indian Books Centre 40/5, Shakti Nagar, Delhi- 110007 Ph No. 91-11-2384 4930 2384 6497 Fax No.91-11-2384 7336 E-mail indianbookscentre at gmail.com ibcindia at vsnl.com Website: http://www.indianbookscentre.com From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Mar 5 13:27:32 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:57:32 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <"20 0803011921.54873.ravikant"@sarai.net> <"6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c401937577 79ec0"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803030138n4f5994efj99218243af64456f@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: Very peaceful indeed, when they murdered taxi drivers , very peaceful indeed when they murdered the poor villagers and peasents for grabbing the land for SEZ.! Hypocracy at its nadir. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: Aditya Raj Kaul , reader-list at sarai.net > Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and > students. It's > all about elections. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP > has decided > > to > > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike > left lazy > > and > > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of students > studies> which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap > publicity seekers > > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > > > > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > colleges> ** > > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > > * ** > > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests > across Delhi > > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" remarks > on Lord > > Ram > > in its history text books, activists said.' > > > > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state joint > > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on Tuesday for > violent> protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the > police to take > > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > > > > He also demanded for action against head of the department > (History) S Z H > > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan > Singh, whose > > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > > > > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > religious> sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press > conference held at North > > Campus today. > > > > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > colleges> each day to seek support from principals and students > for a college-wise > > demonstration. > > > > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased > and said > > that > > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, there > were only > > five people in the building during the violence. > > > > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in the > History> Department last year, no action was taken against them," > he claimed. > > > > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that > if Upinder > > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > Department, > > "what > > took her so long to deny charges". > > > > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half > years. She > > could > > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > > > > > > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> > >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > Ramayanas in > >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue here > is does > >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? > Those places > >> of > >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who > deride hindu > >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > secularism > >> at > >> work. ! > >> Regards. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > History>> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > > > >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two Ramayan's > >> > that we > >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > maybe a few > >> > > hundred > >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. But, lets > >> > for a > >> > > change > >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history > in an > >> > > institution > >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations etc > etc.>> > > >> > > >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > >> > reason why > >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > >> > that there is > >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and many > >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as inferior > >> > and ignorable. > >> > > >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an > ethical and > >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is made. It > >> > cannot be > >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority > belief>> > or a > >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that is the > >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > apartheid.>> > > >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and archive, > and put > =3E> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > >> > rather than > >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. History > >> > cannot be > >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > >> > categorised as > >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > list > >> > List archive: > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Mar 5 13:30:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:00:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: "DEFANGED[1]:" <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <"6353c690803021126p4a813e 5fo7c40193757779ec0"@mail.gmail.com> <"7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c6 7b48e"@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: Hey, but chief minister did not even had courage to visit Nandigram and singur after his cadres killed "them" and paid them in the same coin.! ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 12:09 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: Aditya Raj Kaul , reader-list at sarai.net > No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you > might > consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only > witness who > came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where > does the > court come in to this? > > It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his > name has > been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by > murderers, > liars, profiteers, opportunists. > > It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked > more about > the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in > your > revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to > stand still > on the non-issues. > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. > Sabharwal has > > yet > > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let > Govt. > > which > > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every > step > > taken. > > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and > yet no > > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of > Jessica > > Lall > > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son > in this > > case > > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP > tussle. I've > > seen > > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even > after the > > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart > from ABVP > > which > > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of > supreme> court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he > is tired of this > > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before > mere > > playing > > of blame game. > > > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure > that in > > today's > > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they > have lost > > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They > blindly > > go > > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet > spent on > > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well > known to > > all. > > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling > system.> > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > >> > >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and > students. It's > >> all about elections. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > History>> > >> > >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > >> decided > >> > to > >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. > Unlike left > >> > lazy > >> > and > >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of > students > >> > studies > >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > >> seekers > >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > >> > > >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > colleges>> > ** > >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > >> > * ** > >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests > across Delhi > >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" > remarks on > >> > Lord > >> > Ram > >> > in its history text books, activists said.' > >> > > >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state > joint>> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on > Tuesday for violent > >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the > police to > >> > take > >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > >> > > >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department > (History) S > >> > Z > >> H > >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan > Singh, > >> > whose > >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > >> > > >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > religious>> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press > conference held at North > >> > Campus today. > >> > > >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > >> colleges > >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > >> > college-wise > >> > demonstration. > >> > > >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased > and said > >> > that > >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, > there were > >> only > >> > five people in the building during the violence. > >> > > >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in > the > >> > History > >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he > claimed.>> > > >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said > that if > >> Upinder > >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > Department,>> > "what > >> > took her so long to deny charges". > >> > > >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half > years. She > >> > could > >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > Ramayanas>> in > >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue > here is does > >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? > Those > >> >> places > >> >> of > >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who > deride > >> >> hindu > >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > >> >> secularism > >> >> at > >> >> work. ! > >> >> Regards. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > History>> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> > >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote:>> >> > > > >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two > Ramayan's>> >> > that we > >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > maybe a > >> few > >> >> > > hundred > >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. > But, lets > >> >> > for a > >> >> > > change > >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying > history in an > >> >> > > institution > >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations > etc etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and > is the > >> >> > reason why > >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > >> >> > that there is > >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, > and many > >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as > inferior>> >> > and ignorable. > >> >> > > >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an > ethical and > >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is > made. It > >> >> > cannot be > >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a > majority belief > >> >> > or a > >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that > is the > >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > apartheid.>> >> > > >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and > archive, and > >> >> > put > >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > >> >> > rather than > >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. > History>> >> > cannot be > >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > >> >> > categorised as > >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> > list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Mar 5 13:41:51 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:11:51 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <"20 0803011921.54873.ravikant"@sarai.net> <"6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c401937577 79ec0"@mail.gmail.com> <"6353c690803030138n4f5994efj9921824 3af64456f"@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, but has anyone wondered why a law minister of the nation allows the additional solicitor general of the nation to fly at midnight and beg the authorities to defreeze the 21 crores held in london to uncle Q without the knowledge of the Supreme court of the nation. ? Has anyone wondered how the "criminal" lawyers who defended the loot of kickbacks all got in to rajyasabha as MPs as rewards of good work done by constant induced delays in ivestigation in the kickbacks case, by stays with single judges in high courts of delhi, later promoted to higher courts, now famous or infamous as Bofors. ? Has anyone wondered why the oldest party needs an italian who came to study language certifiate course in part time, has to be the "strong woman" and mother of all sacrifices. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya Raj Kaul Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: reader-list at sarai.net > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. > Sabharwal has yet > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let > Govt. which > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every > step taken. > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and > yet no > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of > Jessica Lall > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son in > this case > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP tussle. > I've seen > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even > after the > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart from > ABVP which > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of > supremecourt who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he > is tired of this > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before > mere playing > of blame game. > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure that > in today's > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they > have lost > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They > blindly go > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet > spent on > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well > known to all. > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling system. > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and > students. It's > > all about elections. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > > > > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > > decided > > > to > > > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. Unlike > left lazy > > > and > > > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of > students studies > > > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > > seekers > > > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > > > > > > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > colleges> > ** > > > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > > > * ** > > > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests > across Delhi > > > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" > remarks on Lord > > > Ram > > > in its history text books, activists said.' > > > > > > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state > joint> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on > Tuesday for violent > > > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the > police to take > > > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > > > > > > He also demanded for action against head of the department > (History) S Z > > H > > > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan > Singh, whose > > > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > > > > > > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > religious> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press > conference held at North > > > Campus today. > > > > > > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > > colleges > > > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > college-wise > > > demonstration. > > > > > > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased > and said > > > that > > > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, > there were > > only > > > five people in the building during the violence. > > > > > > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in > the History > > > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he > claimed.> > > > > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said that if > > Upinder > > > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > Department,> > "what > > > took her so long to deny charges". > > > > > > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half > years. She > > > could > > > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi, with one billion and morepeople, let there be that many > Ramayanas> in > > >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue > here is does > > >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? > Those places > > >> of > > >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who > deride hindu > > >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > secularism> >> at > > >> work. ! > > >> Regards. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > > >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > History> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > > >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two > Ramayan's> >> > that we > > >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > maybe a > > few > > >> > > hundred > > >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. > But, lets > > >> > for a > > >> > > change > > >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying history > in an > > >> > > institution > > >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations > etc etc. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and is the > > >> > reason why > > >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > > >> > that there is > > >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, and > many> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed > as inferior > > >> > and ignorable. > > >> > > > >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an > ethical and > > >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is > made. It > > >> > cannot be > > >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a majority > belief> >> > or a > > >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that > is the > > >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > apartheid.> >> > > > >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and > archive, and put > > >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > > >> > rather than > > >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. > History> >> > cannot be > > >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > > >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > > >> > categorised as > > >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> > list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:04:53 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:04:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?CHIDAMBARAM=92S_PEOPLES=92_BUDGET_?= =?windows-1252?q?MISSES_THE_FISHING_BOAT?= Message-ID: <3457ce860803050034o492dec49h30869eef65ba8308@mail.gmail.com> CHIDAMBARAM'S PEOPLES' BUDGET MISSES THE FISHING BOAT Thiruvanathapuram: While welcoming the partial debt relief for small and marginal farmers, the Kerala Swantantra Matstya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) stated that it was unfortunate that Finance Minister P Chidambaram once again completely ignored the concerns of the fishing community................................................. Visit: http://www.keralafishworkers.org From namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 14:37:39 2008 From: namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in (Namrata Kakkar) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:07:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book Message-ID: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear everybody, Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram guha is a man with book length muscles now. So even if he continues writing this bull shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. He may... But anyway, thank you SARAI. Namrata Note: forwarded message attached. Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:57:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:57:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh air. Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > Dear everybody, > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > So even if he continues writing this bull > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > He may... > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > Namrata > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 15:06:04 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:06:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> References: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> Good One Pawan. :-) Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on some review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this Sanjay Kak ? Regards Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh air. > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > He may... > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > Namrata > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From blauloretta at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 15:13:53 2008 From: blauloretta at yahoo.com (Gustaff Harriman Iskandar) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 01:43:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Paper | Artepolis II | 8-10 August 2008 | Bandung - Indonesia In-Reply-To: <3457ce860803050034o492dec49h30869eef65ba8308@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <577294.23729.qm@web51011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Building on the success of the first Arte-Polis in 2006, Institute of Technology Bandung (ITB) is pleased to present Arte-Polis 2, an international conference and workshop with the theme “Creative Communities and the Making of Place: Sharing Creative Experiences” to take place from 8-10 August 2008 in Bandung, Indonesia. This event is organized jointly by ITB's School of Architecture, Planning and Policy Development, School of Business and Management, Research Center for Fine Arts and Design, and Research Center for Information and Communication Technology, in collaboration with the Center for Urban Design Studies in Bandung. The aim of Arte-Polis 2 is to bring together academics, community leaders, local governments, policy-makers and professionals from different regions of the world concerned with the quality of life and livelihood of creative communities in both urban and rural settings. Participants are expected from a diverse range of disciplines, including architecture and planning, business and management, cultural and development studies, design and visual arts, economics, geography, information and communication technology, and others. Its objective is to share international experiences and knowledge regarding current issues, best practices and policy implications on the relationship between creative communities and place-making. This International Conference will critically debate and discuss the following issues : (1) How and to what extent does the creative economy influence community development? (2) How does this phenomenon differ in the cultural and economic contexts of cities in developing countries from those of developed countries? (3) How can creative industries be managed, planned and designed to improve the quality of places for their communities? The two-day International Conference on Friday and Saturday, 8 and 9 August 2008 will critically address the theme “Creative Communities and the Making of Place” through a number of diverse topics, such as, but not limited to: - Creative economy clusters and human settlements development - Design and planning of public spaces for creative expression - Creative leadership, entrepreneurship and management - Financing creative ventures, organizations and partnerships - Creative design innovation and access to global markets - Craft communities empowerment and public-private initiatives - Creative converters of information technology in global communities - Virtual communities and the challenges of digital divide - Creative industries and implication on spatial planning policies - Institutional capacity building for creative governance - Theoretical discourses on creativity, community and place - Education and training for creativity, design and entrepreneurship More information please visit: http://www.ar.itb.ac.id/artepolis2/ Gustaff H. Iskandar Bandung Center for New Media Arts/Common Room Networks Foundation http://commonroom.info/ http://projektheterologia.wordpress.com/ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 15:16:30 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:46:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Guha's weak defenders: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book: In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57768.78759.qm@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan, Again you've started your illiterate gymnastics. Why don't you organize a conference of sound historians and check if Guha can be defended in any form ( Kak is not needed therefore) in terms of methods of history writing (and not satisfying grant givers.)and the product that is history. But I can tell you sophisticated historians will use its pages as toilet paper and will not respond. It is an. NGO version of fundraising history--backed as if by the Rajiv Gandhi foundation this time. Wicked illiteracy sells and sells well. He is another Pupul Jayakar, or MJ Akbar or Prabhu Chaola ( Rajya Sabha post next time).And tell me and all -- what books on methods of history writing you've read and how you defend him; that will settle the debate well. Namrata --- Pawan Durani wrote: > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath > of honest,fresh air. > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on > Mumbai streets > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar > wrote: > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong > but > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, > I > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of > honest, > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate > enough > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could > not > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores > of > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. > Ram > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( > like > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he > too > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram > Guha. > > He may... > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > Namrata > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download > required. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 15:21:45 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:21:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Guha's weak defenders: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book: In-Reply-To: <57768.78759.qm@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> <57768.78759.qm@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803050151y6025107y1926e0121192a731@mail.gmail.com> Are you Arnab or Namrata . Or do you have some other identity . Kindly let me know and then I may reply to your mail . God Bless You With an Identity. On 3/5/08, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > Again you've started your illiterate > gymnastics. Why don't you organize a conference of > sound historians and check if Guha can be defended in > any form ( Kak is not needed therefore) in terms of > methods of history writing (and not satisfying grant > givers.)and the product that is history. But I can > tell you sophisticated historians will use its pages > as toilet paper and will not respond. It is an. NGO > version of fundraising history--backed as if by the > Rajiv Gandhi foundation this time. Wicked illiteracy > sells and sells well. He is another Pupul Jayakar, or > MJ Akbar or Prabhu Chaola ( Rajya Sabha post next > time).And tell me and all -- what books on methods of > history writing you've read and how you defend him; > that will settle the debate well. > Namrata > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath > > of honest,fresh air. > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on > > Mumbai streets > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong > > but > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, > > I > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of > > honest, > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate > > enough > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could > > not > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores > > of > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. > > Ram > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( > > like > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he > > too > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram > > Guha. > > > He may... > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download > > required. Go to > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > From namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 15:31:14 2008 From: namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in (Namrata Kakkar) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:01:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] This is not junk Mr Subrahmanyam In-Reply-To: <000901c87ea2$ae7b5860$7101a8c0@D3XVR891> Message-ID: <997586.21506.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Sanjay subrahmanyam, The review that you've made is being laughed at in Indian circles. Instead of defending what you've written, you're trying to pass this allegation --under the carpet as junk. Use your own intellectuyal filter Mr Subrahmanyam. The real junk is your review.Be sure you will be in trouble when you do your seminars here; defending ridiculous reviews of funded books is sometimes a trouble but still it's worth the trouble than exposing oneself to 'defunding'. Yet I think you' have the sense of guilt, hidden though. May God bless your sense of history and your brand of historiography. admiringly yours Namrata --- sanjay subrahmanyam wrote: > Please do not send me junk. > > > Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it on http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:17:33 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:17:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, Partha. None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the intellectual honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, and if you disagree with it, why? Rgds, Partha ................. On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Good One Pawan. :-) > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on > some > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this > Sanjay Kak ? > > Regards > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh air. > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > He may... > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:31:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:31:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> References: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803050301v7777b8edy4e93f7857809160c@mail.gmail.com> Partha , Do we have to invest our time in a debate over what a compulsive liar has reviewed ? We have put many truths before him on certain issue and his expression were blank. It helped me compare him with Monalisa. Monalisa with a beard. Pawan On 3/5/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Aditya, > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > Partha. > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the intellectual > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, and > if > you disagree with it, why? > > Rgds, Partha > ................. > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on > > some > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > Regards > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh > air. > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > He may... > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:44:41 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:44:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803050301v7777b8edy4e93f7857809160c@mail.gmail.com> References: <769373.90166.qm@web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803050301v7777b8edy4e93f7857809160c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803050314r50c700f5g1c7ffa4dca9f2eaf@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, All of us have our 'plus' points and 'minus' points from other people's points of view. However you may disagree with Kak's view on Kashmir, what he's written has veracity. As for the 'truths' that were put in front of him - they were to the point of why did he depict one thing and not another. That's as crazy as the controversy over 'Jodhaa Akbar' now - that's his personal artistic freedom to depict from his point of view. If you have something different to say, say it - but that does not give you the right to demean someone else because s/he thinks differently. Besides which, the writing does sound extremely effusive, making it seem more an eulogy than a review... Rgds, Partha ............... On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > Do we have to invest our time in a debate over what a compulsive liar has > reviewed ? We have put many truths before him on certain issue and his > expression were blank. > > It helped me compare him with Monalisa. > > Monalisa with a beard. > > Pawan > > > > > On 3/5/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > Partha. > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > intellectual > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, > > and if > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................. > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion > > on > > > some > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > this > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > Regards > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh > > air. > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > He may... > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From ravikant at sarai.net Wed Mar 5 17:32:35 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:32:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Talk by CM Naim on Delhi Message-ID: <200803051732.36248.ravikant@sarai.net> You are cordially invited to a Talk by C. M. Naim, Professor Emeritus, University of Chicago on Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's Two Books on Delhi 12 March 2008, Wednesday: 3.00 PM Seminar Room, Sarai-CSDS regards ravikant From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 18:45:17 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 05:15:17 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <47e122a70803041136n432ee95fgf5fa6629bdde3a9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY> <47e122a70803041136n432ee95fgf5fa6629bdde3a9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090803050515y6a5975c6tf7bc1ec7c05244e1@mail.gmail.com> You guys are trying to put me into a slot. You simply want to figure out on whose side I am. Well I am on niether side. I said it earlier I have no problem with Inder's original post on its own merit, but its a problem if its language leads to this reaction: "every time a Salim talks like this...he'll be answered like this" This is a sentence that usually comes from the mouth of Bal Thakre, Modi and so on. Of course we shouldn't compromise on "our" art and poetry, and we shouldn't care at all on what our art leads to on the street. If those guys can't understand our art and mistake it as provocation, its their problem, not ours. So Vivek, since you keep asking me to quote directly from the text what's my problem, here is the quote from the text which is my problem: "Behenchod, Chootiya, Gandu, Ma-ki choot" I know I am boringly conservative, but I don't see why we shouldn't equate someone who uses these terms on this list with those whose emails go into your bullshit folder.... Kirdar On 3/4/08, inder salim wrote: > dear Kirdar and dear MRSG > > Ghalib says, "Aasan kahnay ki kartay hain farmaish, Goyam Mushkil va > garna goyam muskil " ( The popular demand is that I ought to be > simple, but it is difficult for me if it is not difficult) > > I am certainly not in that league of sheer complexity of gifted poets > like Ghalib . They had the capacity to be simple and complex at the > same time with an amazing grace. Mr. Kirdar appreciates my neither > being Muslim nor Hindu, but he sees me meritless. I also appreciate > the idea of my being as neither Hindu nor Muslim, but I see a profound > merit in this idea, unlike Mr. Kirdar. > > Mr. Kirdar writes: " we do not want to simplify and straighten our > communication since it would no longer be creative" Well said, but in > the very next line, you demand that I should clarify why I wrote the > provocative piece in the first place. You found sheer creativity in > that piece, which again is flattering, but irresponsibly provocative. > Now please elucidate upon the significance of ' creative' in our lives > lest it might be futile to employ ' the creative' in removing the > misunderstanding between the two: Hindu and Muslims. It is as you see > it. But I understand that only creativity can heal the aching > humanity, and I believe, that everybody is potentially a creative > person, and must be provided with necessary confidence to realize > that. That is political, isn't that? > > Respected MRGS, your way of looking at History is little different > from what I see it should be. I believe, history is a little more > deeper than what we learn from history books. It is vastly embedded > in the archival material scattered all over the world. I believe, a > good historian studies painting, poetry, architecture, garments, food > habits besides written material while arriving at a conclusion about a > particular historical event or era. Here, again, I guess a good > historian never concludes . Now, for example, you know everything > everything everything about Islam and its history, then even you can > not say what it is as it was. Islam is popular not because of it is > history, but because it has its own spirituality which is not > different from other forms of religion. > > Now, the problem is that we have a Maulana sahib from a small town in > UP versus a Pandit ji who is a pujari of a small temple in Bihari > colony, shahdara, Delhi. Now both of them have their own opinions on > history, and their own ways of observing religion; and both have ample > time and energy to spew venom on Taslima Nasreen and MF Hussain > respectively. > > Now, how come I am supposed to limit my creativity ( of whatever > intensity ) to suit the above so called representative faces of > Hindus and Muslims. I have my own way of looking at history and > mythology. I like some fragments, here and there. I mix the fragments > with my own imagination and do something else and call it my own > religion. I am a boring artists, you may like my product or not, but > I believe that every body should indulge in this kind of > chutnification ( a phrase coined by Salman Rushdie ). Two imaginary > characters Ajay and Raju are also free to mix what they want. Why Ajay > and Raju should listen to you only, and not to me. What is interesting > that they have their own way of looking at things, and we rarely care > to know what it is. > > In short, it is between me and my subject. It is like between Prophet > Mohammad and the Mountain. It is like between the poet Valmiki and > Lord Ram. What is between you and me should have some intensity, if > not as intense as that, and less than that is a time wasting prose. > > love and regards > inder salim > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 18:50:25 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 05:20:25 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] G world, words, Ajay and Raju Message-ID: <73eb60090803050520i11719453t620442c0359f96f5@mail.gmail.com> Dear MRSG It is you who is trying to push this fictitious story down our throats, so why don't you take a little pain and tell me the exact name of the book, its author, publisher, page number etc. where you found those stories. And your source better be authentic. Kirdar On 3/4/08, MRSG wrote: > Mr. Kirdar Singh, how do you know MRSG is a hindu? What I have written on > Muhammad (marrying own adopted son's wife and Ayesha's affair in the desert) > is quite well known. Muhammad's marriage to his adopted son's former wife, > Zaynab bint Jashplease can be found in any standard text on this subject. > How Ayesha got lost in desert and then to clear her up from charges, > Muhammad got a new revealation - these are well discussed issues. Please > take a little pain to find those. > Thanks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kirdar singh" > To: "inder salim" ; ; > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > Dear Vivek > I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that > some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" > folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and > you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for > you and vis a versa. > > Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I > don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past > and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language > and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's > following phrase very seriously: > > "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this." > > Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his > religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a > Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the > fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a > "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a > further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of > such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. > Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which > you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer > creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). > > But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want > to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer > be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned, > Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings > first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you > may disagree. > > Kirdar > > (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got > the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) > > From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 16:44:48 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 11:14:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Public History : In support of Sanjay Kak, Namrata, Arif and others In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803050127i64fb19f4p8d5329b54cf0c7da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <296627.93621.qm@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear all, I think the debate is all set now and I'm trying to take it away from sheeer casual verbal exchange to some subtantive main points. And everything will be clear.More when everybody joins. And this is in solidarity again with Namrata for celebrating Kak; Arif who had posted this review. Firstly, let us take first the public historian issue. Modern history is essentially public history tied to state forms and related publicity agendas. A separate public history is senseless. And a Review has the tendency to pass off as an object of easy public reading where a reviewer is free to pass off anything as judgment ( Meaghan Morris in his Pirates book told a lot about this); it rarely tries to justify what it is saying by arguing with other contenders. Similar with the history book in question. As if vulgarising in the name of economy makes things public; Historian becomes public historian by trying to become popular. This is out and out wrong. The phrase public in terms of public reasoning refers to that where particular, individual reasons and interests are transcended to augur with the reason of the public--in favour of normative legitimacy. Therefore even if public history is used in a special sense, it is that which trascends --for instance--- narrow dynastic history and not succumbs to it as Ramachandra Guha does in his book endorsed in a former review by Subramaniam. One might conjecture in this special sense, history of royal lineages (Romila Thapar talked about stuti or eulogy for ancient indian )or dynastic genealogies in that sense may be narrated as private histories per se. This is just the opposite of what Subrahmaniam says.His review does this mistake in an hour of celebration. So much for today. Shall come back for more on this 'journalism informed history.' yours in discourse and debt Arnab --- Pawan Durani wrote: --- Pawan Durani wrote: > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath > of honest,fresh air. > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on > Mumbai streets > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar > wrote: > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong > but > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, > I > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of > honest, > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate > enough > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could > not > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores > of > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. > Ram > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( > like > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he > too > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram > Guha. > > He may... > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > Namrata > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download > required. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From prem.cnt at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 20:08:27 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 20:08:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol Message-ID: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> 1. If you see a post with which you disagree, your disagreement should be phrased so as to also imply an acknowledgement of the person's right to speak. 2. If you see a post whose language or attitude you find offensive or unpalatable, just ignore it. Over a period of time, that will be the best filter to sort who is likely to speak constructively on this list. 3. The reader-list is a space for an exchange of ideas. Therefore, speak in order to learn, not in order to convince. 4. If your desire is to convince, then please think about whether a discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon. 5. Attack issues, do not attack people. 6. When you respond to a post, do not just negate it, but engage with it and build on it in order to throw up a new idea into the public commons that is the reader-list. 7. When you post a new message on a fresh subject, do so only if you feel that critique or dissent will be helpful to you. 8. And finally, remember that we interact on this list through language; and language always has two dimensions - speaking and listening. Participation in this list requires a commitment to both dimensions. From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 20:21:14 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:51:14 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History References: "DEFANGED[1]:" <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <"6353c690803021126p4a813e 5fo7c40193757779ec0"@mail.gmail.com> <"7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c6 7b48e"@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <006201c87ed0$5edc1c80$6400a8c0@taraprakash> So! Both are right? This is one of the stupidest comments you might ever have made in your life. So CPM murders people, does this allow your BJP to murder and wander scottfree? When the dogs fight with each other, they must leave the human beings alone. Time for Radhikarjun's mails to go to the bullshit folder from now on. How ridiculously narrow some people on this list have become. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "TaraPrakash" Cc: "Aditya Raj Kaul" ; Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 3:00 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History Hey, but chief minister did not even had courage to visit Nandigram and singur after his cadres killed "them" and paid them in the same coin.! ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 12:09 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: Aditya Raj Kaul , reader-list at sarai.net > No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you > might > consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only > witness who > came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where > does the > court come in to this? > > It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his > name has > been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by > murderers, > liars, profiteers, opportunists. > > It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked > more about > the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in > your > revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to > stand still > on the non-issues. > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. > Sabharwal has > > yet > > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let > Govt. > > which > > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every > step > > taken. > > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and > yet no > > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of > Jessica > > Lall > > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son > in this > > case > > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP > tussle. I've > > seen > > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even > after the > > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart > from ABVP > > which > > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of > supreme> court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he > is tired of this > > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before > mere > > playing > > of blame game. > > > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure > that in > > today's > > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they > have lost > > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They > blindly > > go > > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet > spent on > > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well > known to > > all. > > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling > system.> > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > >> > >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and > students. It's > >> all about elections. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > History>> > >> > >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > >> decided > >> > to > >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. > Unlike left > >> > lazy > >> > and > >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of > students > >> > studies > >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > >> seekers > >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > >> > > >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > colleges>> > ** > >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > >> > * ** > >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests > across Delhi > >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" > remarks on > >> > Lord > >> > Ram > >> > in its history text books, activists said.' > >> > > >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state > joint>> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on > Tuesday for violent > >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the > police to > >> > take > >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > >> > > >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department > (History) S > >> > Z > >> H > >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan > Singh, > >> > whose > >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > >> > > >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > religious>> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press > conference held at North > >> > Campus today. > >> > > >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > >> colleges > >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > >> > college-wise > >> > demonstration. > >> > > >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased > and said > >> > that > >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, > there were > >> only > >> > five people in the building during the violence. > >> > > >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in > the > >> > History > >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he > claimed.>> > > >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said > that if > >> Upinder > >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > Department,>> > "what > >> > took her so long to deny charges". > >> > > >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half > years. She > >> > could > >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > Ramayanas>> in > >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue > here is does > >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? > Those > >> >> places > >> >> of > >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who > deride > >> >> hindu > >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > >> >> secularism > >> >> at > >> >> work. ! > >> >> Regards. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > History>> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> > >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote:>> >> > > > >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two > Ramayan's>> >> > that we > >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > maybe a > >> few > >> >> > > hundred > >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. > But, lets > >> >> > for a > >> >> > > change > >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying > history in an > >> >> > > institution > >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations > etc etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and > is the > >> >> > reason why > >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > >> >> > that there is > >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, > and many > >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as > inferior>> >> > and ignorable. > >> >> > > >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an > ethical and > >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is > made. It > >> >> > cannot be > >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a > majority belief > >> >> > or a > >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that > is the > >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > apartheid.>> >> > > >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and > archive, and > >> >> > put > >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > >> >> > rather than > >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. > History>> >> > cannot be > >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > >> >> > categorised as > >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> > list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:55:46 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:55:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <006201c87ed0$5edc1c80$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d3ef7f7d8c1afe@mail.gmail.com> <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <006201c87ed0$5edc1c80$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6353c690803050925i57ece523i1587ada3531410c5@mail.gmail.com> May Lord Shiva on the auspacious festival of Shivratri Bless all "Left oriented problem creators" and forgive them for their sins. On 3/5/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > So! Both are right? > This is one of the stupidest comments you might ever have made in your > life. > So CPM murders people, does this allow your BJP to murder and wander > scottfree? > When the dogs fight with each other, they must leave the human beings > alone. > Time for Radhikarjun's mails to go to the bullshit folder from now on. > How ridiculously narrow some people on this list have become. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "TaraPrakash" > Cc: "Aditya Raj Kaul" ; > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 3:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > Hey, > but chief minister did not even had courage to visit Nandigram and singur > after his cadres killed "them" and paid them in the same coin.! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TaraPrakash > Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 12:09 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: Aditya Raj Kaul , reader-list at sarai.net > > > No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you > > might > > consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only > > witness who > > came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where > > does the > > court come in to this? > > > > It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his > > name has > > been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by > > murderers, > > liars, profiteers, opportunists. > > > > It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked > > more about > > the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in > > your > > revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to > > stand still > > on the non-issues. > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > > > > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. > > Sabharwal has > > > yet > > > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let > > Govt. > > > which > > > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every > > step > > > taken. > > > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and > > yet no > > > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of > > Jessica > > > Lall > > > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son > > in this > > > case > > > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP > > tussle. I've > > > seen > > > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even > > after the > > > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart > > from ABVP > > > which > > > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of > > supreme> court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he > > is tired of this > > > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before > > mere > > > playing > > > of blame game. > > > > > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure > > that in > > > today's > > > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they > > have lost > > > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They > > blindly > > > go > > > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet > > spent on > > > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well > > known to > > > all. > > > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling > > system.> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > >> > > >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and > > students. It's > > >> all about elections. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > > History>> > > >> > > >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, ABVP has > > >> decided > > >> > to > > >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. > > Unlike left > > >> > lazy > > >> > and > > >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of > > students > > >> > studies > > >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap publicity > > >> seekers > > >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > > >> > > > >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > > colleges>> > ** > > >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > > >> > * ** > > >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests > > across Delhi > > >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" > > remarks on > > >> > Lord > > >> > Ram > > >> > in its history text books, activists said.' > > >> > > > >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state > > joint>> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on > > Tuesday for violent > > >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the > > police to > > >> > take > > >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > > >> > > > >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department > > (History) S > > >> > Z > > >> H > > >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan > > Singh, > > >> > whose > > >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > > >> > > > >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > > religious>> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press > > conference held at North > > >> > Campus today. > > >> > > > >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at least two > > >> colleges > > >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > > >> > college-wise > > >> > demonstration. > > >> > > > >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased > > and said > > >> > that > > >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, > > there were > > >> only > > >> > five people in the building during the violence. > > >> > > > >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in > > the > > >> > History > > >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he > > claimed.>> > > > >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said > > that if > > >> Upinder > > >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > > Department,>> > "what > > >> > took her so long to deny charges". > > >> > > > >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half > > years. She > > >> > could > > >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > > Ramayanas>> in > > >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue > > here is does > > >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? > > Those > > >> >> places > > >> >> of > > >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who > > deride > > >> >> hindu > > >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > > >> >> secularism > > >> >> at > > >> >> work. ! > > >> >> Regards. > > >> >> > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > > >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > > History>> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote:>> >> > > > > >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two > > Ramayan's>> >> > that we > > >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > > maybe a > > >> few > > >> >> > > hundred > > >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. > > But, lets > > >> >> > for a > > >> >> > > change > > >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying > > history in an > > >> >> > > institution > > >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations > > etc etc. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and > > is the > > >> >> > reason why > > >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It implies > > >> >> > that there is > > >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, > > and many > > >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as > > inferior>> >> > and ignorable. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an > > ethical and > > >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is > > made. It > > >> >> > cannot be > > >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a > > majority belief > > >> >> > or a > > >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that > > is the > > >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > > apartheid.>> >> > > > >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and > > archive, and > > >> >> > put > > >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an ethical, > > >> >> > rather than > > >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. > > History>> >> > cannot be > > >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > > >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > > >> >> > categorised as > > >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> >> > list > > >> >> > List archive: > > >> >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > From onlysocio at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 17:12:20 2008 From: onlysocio at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 11:42:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Public History: In support of Sanjay Kak, Namrata, Arif and others Message-ID: <840745.73721.qm@web8401.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear all, I think the debate is all set now and I'm trying to take it away from sheeer casual verbal exchange to some subtantive main points. And everything will be clear.More when everybody joins. And this is in solidarity again with Namrata for celebrating Kak; Arif who had posted this review. Firstly, let us take first the public historian issue. Modern history is essentially public history tied to state forms and related publicity agendas. A separate public history is senseless. And a Review has the tendency to pass off as an object of easy public reading where a reviewer is free to pass off anything as judgment ( Meaghan Morris in his Pirates book told a lot about this); it rarely tries to justify what it is saying by arguing with other contenders. Similar with the history book in question. As if vulgarising in the name of economy makes things public; Historian becomes public historian by trying to become popular. This is out and out wrong. The phrase public in terms of public reasoning refers to that where particular, individual reasons and interests are transcended to augur with the reason of the public--in favour of normative legitimacy. Therefore even if public history is used in a special sense, it is that which trascends --for instance--- narrow dynastic history and not succumbs to it as Ramachandra Guha does in his book endorsed in a former review by Subramaniam. One might conjecture in this special sense, history of royal lineages (Romila Thapar talked about stuti or eulogy for ancient indian )or dynastic genealogies in that sense may be narrated as private histories per se. This is just the opposite of what Subrahmaniam says.His review does this mistake in an hour of celebration. So much for today. Shall come back for more on this 'journalism informed history.' yours in discourse and debt Arnab - Save all your chat conversations. Find them online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 21:39:52 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:09:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Dr. Prem's Eight fold path : Proposal for a reader-list protocol In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5660.49359.qm@web8513.mail.in.yahoo.com> I welcome this discussion on the health of the list and Dr. Prem's eight fold path but a few queries 1.How is a person denied the right to speak ( write?) on this list? 2.Ignoring an "offensive" post seems to be the best remedy as per clause (2), but that is subsequent to finding that the post is offensive, isn't it? But then I've already read the post. And irrespective of such proposals, it seems, all posts have been pursued and read. If I be blind to offensive writing on the list, then what is the use of ethical list protocol that Prem is proposing? Do not read, do not see--if that is the suggestion, then how does Dr. Prem's 'listening' feature? It is a call to stop listening. 3. What is wrong if , for instance, Shuddha speaks to me in order to convince me, or be convinced? When one is convinced, doesn't one learn? Is trying to convince others , and not to coerce, an immoral principle? 4. "If your desire is to convince, then please think > about whether a > discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon." Who is this you, Dr. Prem? If you've been talking only about "issues" and not "people" [ yr clause (5),] then how come you are urging people to opt out of the list? You should attack, going by your principle, the issue and not the people? 5. Can negation be accomplished without engagement? I think negation is the toughest job and new ideas in the world have been thrown open by so called negator and not navigators-->( for instance by an aggressive thinker like Marx.)He was also the harbinger of the most uncomfortable inventory of positive ideas. 6. Everybody should post an idea when s/he will able to help himself/herself with that!!!! ( clause 7)Why? What is the need of posting then? Does a dialogic "interaction" ( clause 8) call for such self-help project? I doubt Dr. Prem! I think its clear by now that Dr. Prem's eight fold path can boomerang! Anybody can construct another--quite antagonistic one and so on! Solution? Long ago Shuddha used a word 'list etiquette'and that is the right one; an invisible call for an unseen ethical demand is the only solution for a list like this; not enumeration. thanking you yours in discourse and defeat Arnab --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > 1. If you see a post with which you disagree, your > disagreement should be > phrased so as to also imply an acknowledgement of > the person's right to > speak. > > 2. If you see a post whose language or attitude you > find offensive or > unpalatable, just ignore it. Over a period of time, > that will be the best > filter to sort who is likely to speak constructively > on this list. > > 3. The reader-list is a space for an exchange of > ideas. Therefore, speak in > order to learn, not in order to convince. > > 4. If your desire is to convince, then please think > about whether a > discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon. > > 5. Attack issues, do not attack people. > > 6. When you respond to a post, do not just negate > it, but engage with it and > build on it in order to throw up a new idea into the > public commons that is > the reader-list. > > 7. When you post a new message on a fresh subject, > do so only if you feel > that critique or dissent will be helpful to you. > > 8. And finally, remember that we interact on this > list through language; and > language always has two dimensions - speaking and > listening. Participation > in this list requires a commitment to both > dimensions. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From vivek at sarai.net Thu Mar 6 10:32:19 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:32:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Assault upon the Delhi University History] Message-ID: <47CF7ADB.1020100@sarai.net> Dear Radhikarajen, You have not replied to my question below, but have made several other digressions since. Do you think the essay by A.K. Ramanujan is denigrating to Hinduism, yes or no? If yes, please quote at least one sentence or phrase from the essay to back up your claim. Waiting for your answer, Vivek -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:26:23 +0530 From: Vivek Narayanan Organization: Sarai To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list References: <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3 at mail.gmail.com> <"e3 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net> <200803011921.54873.ravikant at sarai.net> <"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0 at mail.gmail.com> <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e at mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, Can you show me exactly how, and where, the essay by A.K. Ramanujan is denigrating to Hinduism? Please quote at least one sentence, or even one phrase, if you can, from the essay which denigrates Hinduism. (I'm assuming that you have actually read the complete essay.) As far as I can tell, Ramanujan's essay is a great tribute to Hindu (and, more generally, South Asian) storytelling traditions. Vivek From prem.cnt at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 10:32:58 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:32:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dr. Prem's Eight fold path : Proposal for a reader-list protocol In-Reply-To: <5660.49359.qm@web8513.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> <5660.49359.qm@web8513.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560803052102t4ba5697bl6bf7f0ddcb71f8cc@mail.gmail.com> Dear Arnab, Thanks for the honorary doctorate, although it appears that giving me the title of "Dr." was meant as tongue-in-cheek critique (in which case it makes perfect sense). I realise I did not make myself clear. I put this list forward as a way of constructing a voluntary etiquette, and not as a set of legal rules. So I agree with you on Shuddha's term "list etiquette". In that sense, your response is useful, as my hope was that people would take the protocol, and critique, modify, reject, customise and otherwise transform it - and in that process people may find some useful points in clarifying the list etiquette they wish to observe. The only hope is that some reflexive dialogue on the reader-list may be useful. Having said that, let me respond to some of your points (in blue). > 1.How is a person denied the right to speak ( write?) > on this list? Nobody is actually and physically denied the right to speak. But there have been some recent responses in a tone that implies that the other is not deserving of being heard. I do not consider this ethically acceptable. > 2.Ignoring an "offensive" post seems to be the best > remedy as per clause (2), but that is subsequent to > finding that the post is offensive, isn't it? But then > I've already read the post. And irrespective of such > proposals, it seems, all posts have been pursued and > read. If I be blind to offensive writing on the list, > then what is the use of ethical list protocol that > Prem is proposing? Do not read, do not see--if that is > the suggestion, then how does Dr. Prem's 'listening' > feature? It is a call to stop listening. I am not saying "do not read, do not see". That would be nonsensical. I am saying "do not respond". Sometimes I find an exchange on this list which I do not find very constructive (my personal opinion, which I am entitled to hold) to the spirit of dialogue that I assume this forum seeks. I find that if I respond to this exchange, I merely prolong it - so that is counterproductive. But if I just ignore it and only respond to exchanges that I consider supportive of the spirit of dialogue, and others respond in the same way, then over time the list will coalesce towards the types of exchanges that a greater percentage of the members find mutually beneficial. This will come as an emergent order, rather than one imposed from above. > 3. What is wrong if , for instance, Shuddha speaks to > me in order to convince me, or be convinced? When one > is convinced, doesn't one learn? Is trying to convince > others , and not to coerce, an immoral principle? This is a most useful critique, and I realise a clarification is in order. The true problem is in repetition - if, whatever others may say, a person keeps repeating the same didactic point. This is propoganda, rather than dialogue. > 4. "If your desire is to convince, then please think > > about whether a > discussion forum is a place you > should intrude upon." Who is this you, Dr. Prem? If > you've been talking only about "issues" and not > "people" [ yr clause (5),] then how come you are > urging people to opt out of the list? You should > attack, going by your principle, the issue and not the > people? Another useful critique. If this is a voluntary etiquette, its language should be in the first person rather than third person. It should be phrased as "I" rather than "you". > 5. Can negation be accomplished without engagement? I > think negation is the toughest job and new ideas in > the world have been thrown open by so called negator > and not navigators-->( for instance by an aggressive > thinker like Marx.)He was also the harbinger of the > most uncomfortable inventory of positive ideas. As in point (3) above, the problem lies in repetitive negation rather than one off negation. > 6. Everybody should post an idea when s/he will able > to help himself/herself with that!!!! ( clause 7)Why? > What is the need of posting then? Does a dialogic > "interaction" ( clause 8) call for such self-help > project? I doubt Dr. Prem! This one I do not understand. I thought the whole purpose of the reader-list is dialogue. Why would you post a message if you were not interested in a response that would be useful to you? > thanking you > yours in discourse and defeat > Arnab I have serious doubts about the "defeat" part. There are very few people on the reader-list who can match your energy in philosophical response :-) Regards, Prem From vivek at sarai.net Thu Mar 6 10:37:10 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:37:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803050515y6a5975c6tf7bc1ec7c05244e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70803021925v55841124s6e048c9fbbb9e521@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803040407p5a461d9csa3f669ce3b8bff3d@mail.gmail.com> <000701c87e0a$a6be9620$0201a8c0@MRAY> <47e122a70803041136n432ee95fgf5fa6629bdde3a9c@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090803050515y6a5975c6tf7bc1ec7c05244e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CF7BFE.9040408@sarai.net> Dear Kirdar, From your quote below I can only conclude that your problem with the Inder Salim piece (and only the Inder Salim piece--let's treat Mohit's post as a separate issue) has only to do with foul language and nothing at all with the question of religion. Is this correct-- please confirm. Sorry for insisting on this, but I just want to establish that much as clear before we move on. Regards Vivek > So Vivek, since you keep asking me to quote directly from the text > what's my problem, here is the quote from the text which is my > problem: > > "Behenchod, Chootiya, Gandu, Ma-ki choot" > > I know I am boringly conservative, but I don't see why we shouldn't > equate someone who uses these terms on this list with those whose > emails go into your bullshit folder.... > > Kirdar > > From kj.impulse at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:08:43 2008 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:08:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_4th_IAWRT_ASIA?= =?windows-1252?q?N_WOMEN=92S_FILM_FESTIVAL_2008?= Message-ID: <821019d70803050038h1227ada4sa2d518e17826e7d9@mail.gmail.com> 4th IAWRT ASIAN WOMEN'S FILM FESTIVAL 2008 Presented by the IIC – Asia Project, UNESCO and the IAWRT (International Association of Women in Radio and Television) on 7th + 8th March 2008 at the India International Centre, Lodi Estate, New Delhi [No passes needed. Entry by Free Registration at the venue. All are welcome.] Broadly woven around the theme of "Insights and Aspirations", this year's festival brings together 24 films by Asian women directors from 5 countries. The highlights of the festival include Paromita Vohra's incisive "Morality TV and the Loving Jehad", Rajula Shah's exquisite "Word within the Word", Kato Haruyo's touching Cheese and the Worms, Vani Subramaniam's Ayodhya Gatha, Nishtha Jain's Lakshmi and Me, and Madhushree Datta's Scribbles on Akka. This year's festival screens several short fiction works including Mira Nair's short film on HIV and Nandita Das' public interest spots. The festival also includes animation films, talks and presentations. For more information: iawrtindia.blogspot.com Contact us: iawrtindia(AT)gmail.com with cc to: jaichandiram(AT)yahoo.co.uk For schedule: see below 7TH MARCH 2008, FRI 09:30 AM: REGISTRATION 10:00 AM: INAUGURATION, foll. by EVERYDAY [7m / 2007 / India] by Anupama Srinivasan / onusrinivasan[AT]hotmail.com A reflection on relationships. A story of a pigeon. MANPASAND – THE PERFECT MATCH [11m / 2006 / India] by Dhwani Desai / dhvanidesai[AT]yahoo.com An animation film about the journey of a father in search of a suitable groom for his daughter. 11:00 AM TEA BREAK 11:30 AM MORALITY TV & THE LOVING JEHAD [29m / 2007 / India] by Paromita Vohra / info[AT]psbt.org The film looks outside the frames that weave the frenetic tapestry of Breaking News on India's news channels to uncover a town's complex dynamics – the fear of love, the constant scrutiny and control of women's mobility and sexuality, a history of communal violence, caste brutalization and feudal mindsets. 12:00 NOON KNOWING FOR SURE, WITHOUT KNOWING FOR CERTAIN: HOW I MAKE FILMS [30min] An illustrated presentation by Paromita Vohra parodevi[AT]mtnl.net.in 12:30 PM OCCAM'S RAZOR – ISHRAT JEHAN'S VERY EASY DEATH by [24m/ 2005/ India] Priti Chandriani / Chandriani[AT]pace-productions.com Raises questions about the manner in which encounter killings are carried out in this country. 1:00 PM: LUNCH BREAK 2:00 PM: LAKSHMI AND ME [59m / 2008 / India] by Nishtha Jain / raintreefilms[AT]gmail.com The filmmaker explores her changing relationship with Lakshmi, her part-time maid. foll. by TAAZA KHABAR [31m/ 2006/ India] by Bishakha Dutta / magiclantern.foundation[AT]gmail.com An all-woman team of journalists publish "Khabar Lahariya" from a small town in Uttar Pradesh, covering all the news that the mainstream media forgot. foll. by LEAP FROG [4m / 2007 / India] by Nandita Das / leapfrog.india[AT]lycos.com 3 spots on education and water harvesting. 3:30 PM TEA BREAK 4:00 PM EK AJEEB SI JHUNJLAHAT [3 m / 2007 / India] by Ein Lall / einlall2004[AT]yahoo.co.uk The covered face, the pestle, the mortar; the excessive force with which the pestle swings down; the remorseless regularity of stone pounding on stone; all contribute to a strange tremor of unease…. foll. by GODDESSES [42m / 2007 / India] by Leena Manimekalai / cjerrold[AT]gmail.com Notes from the lives of three extraordinary women – a funeral singer, a fisherwoman & a graveyard worker. 4:45 PM M S AMMA: A SHY GIRL FROM MADURAI [22m / 2007/ India] Swati Thiyagrajan / NDTV A journey into the life and times of the legendary M S Subalakshmi through the eyes of her granddaughter. foll. by LOSING TO WIN [22 / 2007 / India] Uma Sudhir / NDTV On Gujarati Muslim families sending their children away from their "watan" to complete their studies. 5:30 PM BREAK 6:30 PM MIGRATION [18 m / 2007 / India] by Mira Nair / shenny.italia[AT]gmail.com The film deals with the AIDS virus as a great class leveller in society by following its transmission through interweaving stories linking urban and rural India. foll. by THE CHEESE & THE WORMS [98 m / 2005 / Japan] by Kato Haruyo / info[AT]chee-uji.com The director affectionately captures her sick mother's final days with her grandmother and brother's family. 8:30 PM CLOSE --------------------------------------------------------------------- 8TH MARCH 2008, SAT 9:30 AM SHADOWS OF FREEDOM [36 m / 2004 / India] by Sabina Kidwai / sabinakidwai8[AT]gmail.com Traces the history of three women in a Muslim family and how the issues of identity and gender conflict with their lives and that of their family. foll. by OUTSOURCED [49 m / 2006 / Aus.] by Safina Uberoi, Anna Cater / anna[AT]mitrafilms.com.au A portrait of four women working inside an Indian call centre and their battle with workers in countries like Australia for jobs on globalisation's new frontier. 11:05 AM: TEA BREAK 11:30 AM DESIRE AND REPETITION: THE MINIATURIZATION OF THE NEW HINDI SONG MUSIC [25 min] A presentation by Shikha Jhinghan / shikha.jhingan[AT]gmail.com Tracing the development of female singers in popular Hindi film music. 11:55 AM REMEMBRANCE OF THINGS PRESENT [80 m/ 2007/ India] by Chandra Siddan / zeidler[AT]sympatico.ca; abulafi[AT]hotmail.com A woman enquires into her first marriage forced on her when she was a child. 1:15 PM LUNCH BREAK 2:00 PM THE BIRTH OF BRAIN FLY [6 m / 2007 / USA] by Nandita Kumar / mermaidontherock[AT]gmail.com An animation charting the surreal course of a psyche's evolution within the invisible landscape of the mind. foll. by SCRIBBLES ON AKKA [60 m / 2006 / India] Madhushree Dutta / majlis.culture[AT]gmail.com On the 12th century Bhakti poet, Mahadevi Akka. A film on identity, rebellion and bhakti. 3:10 PM TEA BREAK 3:30 PM ENFORCED DISAPPEARANCES [30 min] A presentation by Iffat Fatima / iffatiffat[AT]hotmail.com Documenting the movement and struggle of Kashmiri women for redressal, justice and human rights from the local to the global platform. 4:00 PM THE SKY BELOW [75 m / 2007 / Pak./ India] Sarah Singh / seetheskybelow[AT]gmail.com A contemporary portrait of India and Pakistan vis-=E0-vis the lingering fallout of the Partition, from Kutch to Kashmir and Karachi to the Khyber Pass. 5:15 PM BREAK 6:30 PM AYODHYA GATHA [62 m / 2007 / India] by Vani Subramanian / vanishes[AT]gmail.com What does it mean to belong to a city that has become a symbol of religious intolerance, majoritarian aggression and communal tumult in India – Ayodhya? foll. by WORD WITHIN THE WORD [74 m / 2007 / India] Rajula Shah / rajulashah[AT]rediffmail.com The film witnesses how Kabir, the 14th century mystic poet resonates ordinary lives in 21st century India. 8:45 PM CLOSE --------------------------------------------------------------- Schedule subject to change. Kindly reconfirm at venue. Films will be followed by a discussion with the director, if present. IAWRT THANKS PSBT AND ALL THE FILMMAKERS WHO HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING THIS FESTIVAL WITH THEIR FILMS AND PARTICIPATION. ABOUT IAWRT: The International Association of Women in Radio and Television (IAWRT) is a non–profit organization of women working in electronic and allied media. IAWRT seeks to ensure that women's views and values become an integral part of programme making. It offers professional skill-training to women. It provides grants and fellowships, and presents awards of excellence. It helps members share inputs by organising workshops and festivals round the world. MORE ABOUT IAWRT INDIA and the FILM FESTIVAL: iawrtindia.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Wed Mar 5 11:46:51 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:46:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Off the Mantle #5- The First City Theatre Readings Message-ID: <47CE3AD3.7090108@sarai.net> OFF THE MANTLE #5 The First City Theatre Readings Homer's ODYSSEY as retold by Simon Armitage 12 March 2008 | 7PM | The Attic -- 36, Regal Building, Connaught Place (near The Shop) Email: theatre at firstcitydelhi.com | call: 011-46070317 It took ten years for the Greeks to achieve victory at Troy, and for a further ten years Odysseus has been heading home, his journey dogged by perilous storms and treacherous landfalls. Now the Gods have decided it is time for the wandering hero to find Ithaca ... Part of a wave of recent versions, reversions, metaversions and paraversions of Homer, Simon Armitage's jaunty retelling of The Odyssey was originally commissioned for BBC Radio. Unlike other recastings of this epic by the likes of Derek Walcott and Margaret Atwood, Armitage does not attempt to translate The Odyssey. His is a radically reduced and simplified version, comprised of a series of dramatic dialogues: between gods and men; between no-nonsense Captain Odysseus and his unruly, lotus-eating, homesick companions; between subtle Odysseus (wiliest hero of antiquity) and a range of shape-shifting adversaries - Calypso, Circe, the Sirens, the Cyclops - as he and his men are 'pinballed between islands' by adversity. The First City Theatre Foundation is delighted to present scenes from Simon Armitage's retelling of this epic, hoping to quicken and revitalise our sense of it as oral poetry: as indeed one of the greatest of tall tales. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From aman.am at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 12:20:14 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 12:20:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dr. Prem's Eight fold path : Proposal for a reader-list protocol In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803052102t4ba5697bl6bf7f0ddcb71f8cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> <5660.49359.qm@web8513.mail.in.yahoo.com> <7e230b560803052102t4ba5697bl6bf7f0ddcb71f8cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920803052250r58214256lcb3d04604761be57@mail.gmail.com> >From the Guardian via The Hindu How do you deal with idiots on the Comment Board? Andrew Brown Keith Richards isn't often admired for his sanity, but he did ask one question which should be hung on the wall of every newspaper office where people believe that publishing comments will increase their readership: "Why should I care about what some other person on the other side of the world thinks about this or that?" It is not that his question is unanswerable; but it is the one question which anyone running a blog or a comment-enabled newspaper site needs to keep on answering. To keep on giving your readers a reason to read the opinions of other readers is a skill which has only really existed in the past 10 years. It starts with the need to encourage good contributors, which is not entirely different from the traditional letters pages of a newspaper — essentially, you have to start by begging the people you want to contribute to do so, in the hope that others will want to be associated with them. When the London-based Independent newspaper started, its letters to the editor was entirely shameless about soliciting opinions from people like Graham Greene — not so much because he had interesting things to say as because other people would exert themselves to write well enough to appear on the same page. But famous contributors only work to improve the quality of letters pages. The difficulty with online comments is that there is no particular merit in appearing on the same page as even the most distinguished contributors. Any fool can manage this, and almost every fool will try. If idiots were the only problem, they could perhaps be worked around and discouraged without too much effort. But there are a fair few idiots with a sense of entitlement, and beyond that, there are the purely destructive. Bad comment drives out good, while the nature of the web means that there will always be some place where the good contributors can go for fun if yours gets too crowded and silly. There are no purely technological fixes. It is certainly not worth hoping that any forum worth having can police itself. Without a rigorous policy of excluding fools and banishing trolls any discussion will be wrecked, but this policy is hard to state with any greater precision because exactly who constitutes a foolish troll varies according to the understanding of the community. The rules of the IRC channel for readers of the xkcd webcomic (xkcd.com) say very simply: "Don't reduce the signal [to] noise ratio, don't be mean unless it's funny, and don't delete things. That's all, really." On Metafilter (metafilter.com), the founder explains why he allows great freedom to the members: "I give you the ability to do this because I trust you. I trust that you will act in a civilised manner, that you will treat others with opposing viewpoints with absolute respect, that you will contribute in a positive way to the intelligent discussions that take place here every day." Neither of these policies has anything in common with the boilerplate of most big sites. They are addressed to responsible adults, not their lawyers; but then it is adults we want commenting, not lawyers (unless they are talking about the law). "Don't be mean unless it is funny" may be the most difficult of these rules to follow, and the one least fitted to large readerships. There are some disputes where it is simply impossible to separate disagreement from enmity. Perhaps the best solution was invented by the Christian site, Ship of Fools (shipoffools.com), which has a section called Hell, where those who wish to engage in interminable arguments are welcome. — (c) Guardian Newspapers Limited, 2008 On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > Dear Arnab, > Thanks for the honorary doctorate, although it appears that giving me the > title of "Dr." was meant as tongue-in-cheek critique (in which case it makes > perfect sense). > > I realise I did not make myself clear. I put this list forward as a way of > constructing a voluntary etiquette, and not as a set of legal rules. So I > agree with you on Shuddha's term "list etiquette". In that sense, your > response is useful, as my hope was that people would take the protocol, and > critique, modify, reject, customise and otherwise transform it - and in that > process people may find some useful points in clarifying the list etiquette > they wish to observe. The only hope is that some reflexive dialogue on the > reader-list may be useful. > > Having said that, let me respond to some of your points (in blue). > > > > > 1.How is a person denied the right to speak ( write?) > > on this list? > > > Nobody is actually and physically denied the right to speak. But there have > been some recent responses in a tone that implies that the other is not > deserving of being heard. I do not consider this ethically acceptable. > > > > > > 2.Ignoring an "offensive" post seems to be the best > > remedy as per clause (2), but that is subsequent to > > finding that the post is offensive, isn't it? But then > > I've already read the post. And irrespective of such > > proposals, it seems, all posts have been pursued and > > read. If I be blind to offensive writing on the list, > > then what is the use of ethical list protocol that > > Prem is proposing? Do not read, do not see--if that is > > the suggestion, then how does Dr. Prem's 'listening' > > feature? It is a call to stop listening. > > > I am not saying "do not read, do not see". That would be nonsensical. I am > saying "do not respond". Sometimes I find an exchange on this list which I > do not find very constructive (my personal opinion, which I am entitled to > hold) to the spirit of dialogue that I assume this forum seeks. I find that > if I respond to this exchange, I merely prolong it - so that is > counterproductive. But if I just ignore it and only respond to exchanges > that I consider supportive of the spirit of dialogue, and others respond in > the same way, then over time the list will coalesce towards the types of > exchanges that a greater percentage of the members find mutually > beneficial. This will come as an emergent order, rather than one imposed > from above. > > > > 3. What is wrong if , for instance, Shuddha speaks to > > me in order to convince me, or be convinced? When one > > is convinced, doesn't one learn? Is trying to convince > > others , and not to coerce, an immoral principle? > > > This is a most useful critique, and I realise a clarification is in order. > The true problem is in repetition - if, whatever others may say, a person > keeps repeating the same didactic point. This is propoganda, rather than > dialogue. > > > > > > 4. "If your desire is to convince, then please think > > > about whether a > discussion forum is a place you > > should intrude upon." Who is this you, Dr. Prem? If > > you've been talking only about "issues" and not > > "people" [ yr clause (5),] then how come you are > > urging people to opt out of the list? You should > > attack, going by your principle, the issue and not the > > people? > > > Another useful critique. If this is a voluntary etiquette, its language > should be in the first person rather than third person. It should be > phrased as "I" rather than "you". > > > > > > 5. Can negation be accomplished without engagement? I > > think negation is the toughest job and new ideas in > > the world have been thrown open by so called negator > > and not navigators-->( for instance by an aggressive > > thinker like Marx.)He was also the harbinger of the > > most uncomfortable inventory of positive ideas. > > > As in point (3) above, the problem lies in repetitive negation rather than > one off negation. > > > > > > 6. Everybody should post an idea when s/he will able > > to help himself/herself with that!!!! ( clause 7)Why? > > What is the need of posting then? Does a dialogic > > "interaction" ( clause 8) call for such self-help > > project? I doubt Dr. Prem! > > > This one I do not understand. I thought the whole purpose of the > reader-list is dialogue. Why would you post a message if you were not > interested in a response that would be useful to you? > > > > > > thanking you > > yours in discourse and defeat > > Arnab > > > I have serious doubts about the "defeat" part. There are very few people on > the reader-list who can match your energy in philosophical response :-) > > Regards, > Prem > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 12:36:25 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:06:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <517594.94995.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yes! Who is Sanjay Kak? Why do humans became like ... Bullshit folder creators, technology implementers to screw up something, personal abusers, Expressionists who miss great writings on SARAI like ... , Women activists/professors at prestigious Universities in the world who express freely(oshik sarkar), and self styled poets, atheists used to read sacred/mythological books to execute assaults on woman at assemblies, human half/full backed historians who are reckless about anything(like mythology, their own created history), great logic(...) generators, ... SORRY, great personalities HARA HARI, HEY SUPER POWER/KRISHNA/MUKUND/MURARI where are you? nainam chindanti shastrani nainam dahati pavakah na cainam kledayanty apo na sosayati marutah "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." why do somuch INDIA/soul torture has been going on? Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: Good One Pawan. :-) Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on some review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this Sanjay Kak ? Regards Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh air. > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > He may... > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > Namrata > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 12:43:56 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 12:43:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <517594.94995.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <6353c690803050136m71b3dc67w1522f553a8ec8e7@mail.gmail.com> <517594.94995.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803052313v5f3acaa9rf3521b9b3ae28edd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, The debate here is about a re-definition of 'history' (and not mythology). If you disagree with what has been said, then please respond to the specific points with specific details. If you dislike specific people, well, the nice thing about the list is that you do not have to meet them. However, please do keep the intellectual honesty of this list clear by responding to issues with an argument that has a point instead of a rant against people(s) or chants which have no bearing to the debate. Rgds, Partha ................ On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:36 PM, we wi wrote: > Yes! Who is Sanjay Kak? Why do humans became like ... > > Bullshit folder creators, technology implementers to screw up something, > personal abusers, > Expressionists who miss great writings on SARAI like ... , Women > activists/professors at prestigious Universities in the world who express > freely(oshik sarkar), and self styled poets, atheists used to read > sacred/mythological books to execute assaults on woman at assemblies, human > half/full backed historians who are reckless about anything(like mythology, > their own created history), great logic(...) generators, ... SORRY, great > personalities > > HARA HARI, > HEY SUPER POWER/KRISHNA/MUKUND/MURARI where are you? > > > nainam chindanti shastrani > nainam dahati pavakah > na cainam kledayanty apo > na sosayati marutah > "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, > nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." > > > why do somuch INDIA/soul torture has been going on? > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Good One Pawan. :-) > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on > some > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this > Sanjay Kak ? > > Regards > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh air. > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > He may... > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 13:04:09 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are false. Sanjay kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and Aditya,..... Partha Dasgupta wrote: Dear Aditya, That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, Partha. None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the intellectual honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, and if you disagree with it, why? Rgds, Partha ................. On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Good One Pawan. :-) > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on > some > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this > Sanjay Kak ? > > Regards > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh air. > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > He may... > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 13:15:22 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:45:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] G world, words, Ajay and Raju In-Reply-To: <73eb60090803050520i11719453t620442c0359f96f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <717475.71480.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> As per news papers(TOI) , I come to know that this is the incident that recently happened in INDIA only. Why do this mrsg struggle to say that directly? kirdar singh wrote: Dear MRSG It is you who is trying to push this fictitious story down our throats, so why don't you take a little pain and tell me the exact name of the book, its author, publisher, page number etc. where you found those stories. And your source better be authentic. Kirdar On 3/4/08, MRSG wrote: > Mr. Kirdar Singh, how do you know MRSG is a hindu? What I have written on > Muhammad (marrying own adopted son's wife and Ayesha's affair in the desert) > is quite well known. Muhammad's marriage to his adopted son's former wife, > Zaynab bint Jashplease can be found in any standard text on this subject. > How Ayesha got lost in desert and then to clear her up from charges, > Muhammad got a new revealation - these are well discussed issues. Please > take a little pain to find those. > Thanks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kirdar singh" > To: "inder salim" ; ; > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gandu world, words, Ajay and Raju > > > Dear Vivek > I have been following some of your mails. Its interesting to note that > some ordinary emails coming to your inbox go into the "Bullshit" > folder, while the literal bullshit goes into the ordinary folder, and > you even come to defend it. What's bullshit for MRSG is vlaueable for > you and vis a versa. > > Look I have no problem with the intention of Inder Salim's story - I > don't need a justification for it. I appreciate the collective past > and the ontology and so on. But I do have a problem with the language > and symbolism. You won't care to react to it but I take MRSG's > following phrase very seriously: > > "Everytime one Salim starts like this, it will be replied like this." > > Now I know Inder Salim will not care to clarify to MRSG what his > religious identity is, or the fact that he is neither a Muslim nor a > Hindu (and I respect and appreciate that). But are you happy about the > fact that your posting has been simply misunderstood by someone as a > "provocation by a Muslim" and it naturally has to be replied with a > further provocation to all Muslims. The entire internet is full of > such provocative and abusive debates between Hindus and Muslims. > Inder, you mentioned rabid communalization in your rejoinder (which > you are against), but isn't your original post (due to its sheer > creative language) leading to further rabidity (unless you clarify). > > But I think that's what most of us don't want to do - we do not want > to simplify and straighten our communication since it would no longer > be creative. All the problems of this world (which you have mentioned, > Inder) need clarifications, dialogue, clearing of misunderstandings > first. Art and black humour can come later. That's my opinion - you > may disagree. > > Kirdar > > (and by the way, MRSG, could you specify a source from which you got > the "history" about Muhammad and his indulgences) > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 13:16:30 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:16:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor Pawan are loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about being dispossesed and the pain of not living there. b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If anyone disagrees they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted one part or view of a status as he sees it. c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current debate. If you feel that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, please respond to specific portions with your own references. Rgds, Partha .................................. On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are false. Sanjay > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and Aditya,..... > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > Dear Aditya, > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > Partha. > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the intellectual > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, and > if > you disagree with it, why? > > Rgds, Partha > ................. > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion on > > some > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is this > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > Regards > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh > air. > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > He may... > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 13:18:52 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:48:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <413023.73518.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> wow! That sounds a good teacher teaches basics to the students. I think u mean usage of parlimentary language. Prem Chandavarkar wrote: 1. If you see a post with which you disagree, your disagreement should be phrased so as to also imply an acknowledgement of the person's right to speak. 2. If you see a post whose language or attitude you find offensive or unpalatable, just ignore it. Over a period of time, that will be the best filter to sort who is likely to speak constructively on this list. 3. The reader-list is a space for an exchange of ideas. Therefore, speak in order to learn, not in order to convince. 4. If your desire is to convince, then please think about whether a discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon. 5. Attack issues, do not attack people. 6. When you respond to a post, do not just negate it, but engage with it and build on it in order to throw up a new idea into the public commons that is the reader-list. 7. When you post a new message on a fresh subject, do so only if you feel that critique or dissent will be helpful to you. 8. And finally, remember that we interact on this list through language; and language always has two dimensions - speaking and listening. Participation in this list requires a commitment to both dimensions. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 6 13:32:34 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 08:02:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol :Democracy must be outside itself In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <463450.55913.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear (Dr.) Prem, The doctor was added as a crown to your health thinking and thanks you've accepted it! The core of your response strikes at the heart of what you and I want/ed to do: open out yr list to the "people (who) would > take the protocol, and > critique, modify, reject, customise and otherwise > transform it" ! Fine, and that is the normative part of building norms which will be consensually agreed upon by those who will be affected by thoe norms ! Absolutely right and there is nothing to disagree except a fatal point! It is a running debate and an interesting one: i would request you to think over it. Why is it that democracy has to found itself outside of democratic procedures? Let me explain. Democracy for instance believes in one sense---decisions by a majoritarian vote; it ideally believes in the consent of the governed, accountability and so on. But suppose democracy itself is subjected to its own procedure: vote whether you want democracy or not. Respondents vote for a no! Then? It is possible therefore to show, that an ideal end when opened to a brittle (even its own) means might just abolish itself and therefore--this is most important-- democracy subjects several things to its procedure but itself; it simply cannot afford to that. Similarly, I would like to know if you open up your protocols to modification and transformation---even consent by argumentation, would you agree if an overwhelming majority decides to abandon your list? Or there is something you would like to keep out of argumentation? Please tell me. And a clarification on the helping part. Helping is made always externally : You help me, she helps him--even the government can help. etc. But how can I help myself unless I stand outside myself and lend a helping hand?( help yourself is thus meaning less); since this is impossible. When I am into an act, I'm doing it as if no body does it. Heidegger gave good example! An expert hammerman when is using the hammer --he uses it such that (as if) he is not using it; the smooth transition is such that is quite unconscious; he may well think about a cinema, his children while doing that arduous job. That subject-object distinction is nearly erased in this. If there is a problem--say the hammer head breaks, then he comes back to the divisive reality and responds. So when one writes one is not into a helping project that is very voluntary. When one writes, one cannot but write. Like Nietzsche once said on a new year: I'm thinking because I'm living, I want to live because I want to think more. And much of it is "useless" --what (atleast) I write--in consequential atleast to me and even many on the list ( yours in "defeat"). But its uselessness is what absorbs me and many others ( I can think about Inder Salim here)--a kind of destructivity that is in constant writing,chatting, art or performing yet meaning nothing. I'm afraid you might just be undermining the value of the negative itself. I read a recent article with the following question, "shall we miss anything significant in a world without hate speech?" And I'm still searching the obscure arguments made to answer that. Could you suggest an easier one? I hope you do. Yours in discourse and "debt" Arnab --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > 1. If you see a post with which you disagree, your > disagreement should be > phrased so as to also imply an acknowledgement of > the person's right to > speak. > > 2. If you see a post whose language or attitude you > find offensive or > unpalatable, just ignore it. Over a period of time, > that will be the best > filter to sort who is likely to speak constructively > on this list. > > 3. The reader-list is a space for an exchange of > ideas. Therefore, speak in > order to learn, not in order to convince. > > 4. If your desire is to convince, then please think > about whether a > discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon. > > 5. Attack issues, do not attack people. > > 6. When you respond to a post, do not just negate > it, but engage with it and > build on it in order to throw up a new idea into the > public commons that is > the reader-list. > > 7. When you post a new message on a fresh subject, > do so only if you feel > that critique or dissent will be helpful to you. > > 8. And finally, remember that we interact on this > list through language; and > language always has two dimensions - speaking and > listening. Participation > in this list requires a commitment to both > dimensions. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ From vikash.sen at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 13:39:14 2008 From: vikash.sen at gmail.com (Bikash Ballabh Singh) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:39:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacre of journalism in India Message-ID: <25c340bd0803060009x722e7d91ue726c9849613a4b2@mail.gmail.com> *A senior TV journalist recently reported the Nellie carnage with three-year old facts. He did not bother to update the story. Is it ethical to package old wine in a new bottle? Why does the Northeast receive such treatment: A review.* by Nava Thakuria(Citizen Journalist) via merinews NORTHEAST INDIA has turned in to a land of happenings. From insurgency to ethnic tension and economic activities to cultural discourses, it started drawing the attention of media worldwide. The alienated region of the country has suddenly woken up to an anniversary of a massacre that took place 25 years back in Assam. A senior Indian journalist released a book on the issue in the national capital recently and suddenly a group of reporters began to pile up their reporting space with the memory of the carnage. Many of them even did not bother to check the old information, while putting those in their fresh columns (as might be nobody bothers about Northeast). Meet Nitin A Gokhale, the senior editor, defence and strategic affairs of NDTV (New Delhi), who has recently contributed a column for the portal of the satellite channel (http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN20080042819). But out of callousness, the editor-journalist copied and pasted more than 70 per cent of the text from one of his earlier articles, released by an Indian portal ( http://www.tehelka.com/story_main13.asp?filename=Ne070205The_simple.asp) three years back. He even used the same quotes, where one of them was a local Panchayat member. Assam had the Panchayat election three months back, but Nitin did not bother to check his present status (whether he was re-elected this time). More over the entire situation was re-created for Nitin (must be by God) when he had recently visited, Nellie, the place of the carnage. It may be mentioned that Nellie, a sleepy village of middle Assam witnessed a horrifying massacre of thousands of Muslims in 1983. The village, nearly 90 km away from Guwahati became a center of media attraction during the period, when the Assam agitation led by All Assam Students Union (AASU) reached the peak. It was the time, when New Delhi imposed an election in the state against the will of the indigenous people. The memory of Nellie massacre still haunts the Assamese psyche irrespective of caste, creed and religion. But surprisingly enough, this sensitive issue was also taken for manufacturing stories by the journalist, who used to stay in Assam for some time. Now based in New Delhi, Nitin had contributed a piece for NDTV with his three years old information. His column (with an 'I-Know-All' air) titled 'Nellie revisited: 25 years on' uploaded on Saturday (March 1), tends to analyse the situation after his recent visit to the location. The writer also described the consequences of the carnage and its implication on today's changing demographic pattern in the state. But leaving aside first few paragraphs of the write up on NDTV portal, the entire text was simply added form an earlier article (by him of course) used by Tehelka. In fact, besides a little introduction of the Nellie massacre in reference to a book release by Hemendra Narayan in New Delhi recently, Nitin picked up his old text with minor updating. The journalist picked up all the quotes (as he did three years back), and used for his March 1 piece on NDTV. One of his quotes (Mohammed Nuruddin Munshi, the all-powerful leader of the community in the area) described, "We now number about 12,000-14,000 as against barely 3,000-odd in 1983." The old article contained the same line with the same description. So the man must have taken help of his memory to reveal the precise statistics to Nitin 'during a recent visit to Nellie'. The next quote (Suruj Konwar, a veterinary department employee) said exactly the same thing to Nitin, as it was reported in 1983. The editor provided some space to elaborate the profile of Nuruddin, who was 'then a 20-year-old having just completed his schooling in Arabic' and later 'began taking active interest in politics'. The next lines say, "Today he is the member of the Anchalik Parishad and a leader of the community." The old article (uploaded in July 2005) also described Nuruddin as the member of the Anchalik Parishad (a part of Panchyati Raj system in India). So he must have been re-elected in the Panchyat polls of Assam that took place during December and January 2007. But there is no mention about it. It simply implies that Nitin does not care about the authenticity of a quote in his column. The NDTV editor was communicated with his personal e-mail address as well as official feedback format, but no response was coming from him. Now the pertinent question that arises, whether a journalist is allowed to manufacture quotes for his write-ups those might speak biased information? Moreover, is anyone is permitted to copy and paste almost 80 per cent of his own write up, even though the situation had been changed in three long years. Are these not a clear case of unpardonable offence by the NDTV editor, which could definitely hurt the moral and ethical values of journalism? *PS. The readers may check **out both pieces, where paragraphs lifted from the earlier piece are in italics.* *Nellie revisited: 25 years on* *Nitin Gokhale* Senior Editor, Defence and Strategic Affairs Saturday, March 1, 2008 (New Delhi) On February 18, 2008, the Delhi Press Club was the venue for a small function organised by Hemendra Narayan, a veteran reporter, who works with *The Statesman* in New Delhi. The Occasion: Release of a monograph on one of independent India's darkest chapters: the massacre of over 3,000 people at Nellie in Assam. Exactly 25 years to date, Hemendra Narayan and a couple of other journalists - one from *Assam Tribune* and the other from ABC news - witnessed the cold blooded murder of migrant Muslims by a rampant mob. Narayan was then reporting from India's northeast for *The Indian Express.*Could the reporters have done anything to save even one life? Could they have played saviours at a time when police and para-military forces failed to act? For over quarter of a century, Narayan battled with the ghosts of that day and played and replayed the horrific images in his mind's eye and finally decided to come up with the monograph as if to rid himself of the burden of the guilt that he carried for so long. Super Cop KPS Gill, who was Assam's Inspector General Police for Law and order during that period was present at the function to release the monograph. He recalled the tough times and the circumstances under which the Nellie massacre took place. There are no clear-cut answers to what went wrong that time. But this is perhaps an appropriate occasion to look back how Assam's political landscape has changed over these intervening 25 years. Nellie was the turning point in Assam's body politic. On a more personal note, I started my career as a journalist in Assam just two months after the infamous carnage. Since then I have visited Nellie a number of times and have found that in the past 25 years, the ground reality has undergone a total transformation. The Assam agitation (or movement as some people prefer to term it) was a result of the fear that the indigenous population had against large-scale influx of Bangladeshis into Assam. But this migration was nothing new. In the early 20th century hordes of people from what was then East Bengal in undivided India migrated to the sparsely populated yet fertile Brahmaputra Valley. They came in such large numbers that CS Mullan, an ICS officer and the then census commissioner, observed in 1931: "Probably the most important event in the province (Assam) during the last 25 years - an event, moreover, which seems likely to alter permanently the whole future of Assam and the whole structure of Assamese culture and civilisation - has been the invasion of a vast horde of land-hungry Bengali militants, mostly Muslims, from the districts of Eastern Bengal in general and Mymensingh in particular. It is sad but by no means improbable that in another 30 years Sibsagar district will be the only part of Assam in which an Assamese will find himself at home." *Mullan's prophecy did not come true as early as he predicted but at the turn of the century, the ground reality in most parts of Assam resembles what the ics officer had foreseen more than 70 years ago. * *Today, the Assamese indeed finds himself outnumbered in at least nine districts; most of the state's agriculture production and its vegetables are in the hands of the migrants. The migrant also makes up the largest chunk of labour force engaged in construction activities; over 80 percent of the state's cycle-rickshaws are pedalled by the migrants. The truth is today's Assam cannot do without this hardworking section of the population. * *The flip side is that even politicians cannot do without them. The ruling Congress goes out of its way to appease the migrants and therefore wants to believe in the myth, perpetuated by its own propaganda machine, that there is no influx from Bangladesh. Sadly, the Asom Gana Parishad (AGP), midwifed by the once powerful All Assam Students Union (AASU), also did not do much to deport illegal migrants during its two stints in power.* So what's the reality a quarter century after Nellie? During a recent visit to Nellie, I found the tide has truly turned. Muslims are no longer a minority there. They are also politically savvy. Most of their leaders realise that their safety lies in numbers. *The change is apparent in Nellie. In 1983, the Muslims were outnumbered by the Tiwa tribals; today the situation has completely reversed. Says Mojen Konwar of Nellie, who was witness to the massacre, "What happened then cannot happen again because the minority has become a majority. There are bound to be problems in the coming years." The wizened old man, however, hastens to add that the killing of the Muslims in 1983 was the handiwork of 'outsiders'. Narayan Radu Kakati, chairman of the Tiwa Autonomous Council, meant to offer constitutional protection to the tribals, concurs: "Our people had no clue to the killings. It just happened as part of a larger conspiracy." * *The Muslims, however, are not interested in knowing who the killers were. All they know is that the best protection they can have in the areas is to become a majority. The large-scale relocation of Muslim peasants from neighbouring Morigaon and Nagaon districts has fulfilled that plan. Admits Mohammed Nuruddin Munshi, the all-powerful leader of the community in the area: "We now number about 12,000-14,000 as against barely 3,000-odd in 1983." Mohammad Moinuddin, a 70-year-old father of 10 children, says he shifted from nearby Jagiroad to the Nellie area and bought several bighas of land to support his family. "With so many mouths to feed, I needed to get more land and the land was available aplenty here," he says. Most of the land earlier belonged to the Tiwas who, for lack of enterprise, are simply selling it for short-term gains. * *The root of the problem is in fact the alienation of tribals from the land. The Tiwas, hopelessly outnumbered now, say their land is being gradually bought over by the Muslims. "When people get Rs 30,000-40,000 per bigha, they simply sell their land," says Suruj Konwar, a veterinary department employee. As a result, today Nellie's demography has completely changed. * *But most people have not forgotten the 1983 massacre. For Nuruddin's elder brother Mohammed Tamiruddin, the memory of February 18 is as painful and vivid as if it happened yesterday. "Between 8am and 3pm that day, a mad frenzy had gripped the attackers. They came, armed with daos (matchet), country guns and lathis and surrounded us. First they started burning our hutments. We thought our lives at least would be spared but after a while the attackers started killing systematically. In our village (Basundhari) we lost 1,819 people that day. I and my brother Nuruddin were hiding in a pond. When the attackers started coming closer, we ran to the nearby railway bridge and hid there till the CRPF came to our rescue. Between us, we lost 26 family members," Tamiruddin says, his eyes moistening at the painful memories.* *After the killings, Nuruddin, then a 20-year-old having just completed his schooling in Arabic, began taking active interest in politics. Today he is the member of the Anchalik Parishad and a leader of the community. * *Despite the harrowing experience he had to go through, he holds no grudges. "We have very cordial relations with our Hindu brothers here. There is no tension. In fact, 30 percent of our children study at a school located in a Hindu majority area," he emphasises. * *There may not be any tension but the residents are always alert. As I ventured into the interiors, leaving the NH37 passing through Nellie, word reached Nuruddin, who was some 10 km inside that strangers were coming to meet him, courtesy the ubiquitous mobile phone. Someone had called up Nuruddin to inform about the strangers' arrival.* *Afraid that something was wrong, Nuruddin waited for us near the mosque in the village instead of his house. Many others were around him as we reached the village square. The safety in numbers theory was very apparent. As we talked, the tension gradually faded but it was clear that no newcomer could now enter the Muslim villages of Nellie without being noticed.* *Clearly, Nuruddin and his fellow men have learnt from the 1983 experience. None of them want to be at the receiving end. Indeed, most people in Assam now know that the outcome of a Nellie repeat would be much different. That's the ground reality today.* Soruce: http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=130768 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 14:16:41 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:16:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha , Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called :Jashn - Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known lobyist enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on Kashmir , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate with him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance about History. Regards Pawan Durani On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Dhatri, > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > Pawan > are > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > being > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > anyone disagrees > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > one part > or view of a status as he sees it. > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > debate. > If you feel > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > please respond to > specific portions with your own references. > > Rgds, Partha > .................................. > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > false. Sanjay > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > Aditya,..... > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > Partha. > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > intellectual > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, > and > > if > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................. > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion > on > > > some > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > this > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > Regards > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh > > air. > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > He may... > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search.< > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 14:29:03 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:29:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803060059x7325e090l541755d0d813c42f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, 1. As I mentioned earlier, all of us on this list are unknown to each other. I atleast only know one person who told me about this list. 2. The list is a place where we debate, discuss and inform, and 'who' the person is becomes irrelevant. 3. As far as Sanjay Kak's film is concerned, you're welcome to mail him a list of questions. However, since he's not on the list, why post it here - unless you want to debate the 'realities' he's raised. 4. In any case, this specific debate has nothing to do with that issue. If you disagree with what's been said in this debate, then mention the parts you disagree with and why. All of us have pockets of knowledge, and I'd be glad to know your point of view on this topic, but I haven't seen it. All there's been is a personal attack against Sanjay Kak without any reference to the issue raised. Rgds, Partha .............. On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Partha , > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called :Jashn > - Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > lobyist enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > Kashmir , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > with him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance about > History. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > Pawan > > are > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > being > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > anyone disagrees > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > > depicted > > one part > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > debate. > > If you feel > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > please respond to > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................................. > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > false. Sanjay > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > Partha. > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > intellectual > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, > > and > > > if > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ................. > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion > > on > > > > some > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > this > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > Search.< > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 6 15:47:07 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:17:07 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol In-Reply-To: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wonderful, thought provoking and inspiring , but only in utopian civilised society, not in a society where we divide ourselves in to" our people" and those people, where any communication is tended to be shouted down with innuendos of class, xaste and biases of faith.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Prem Chandavarkar Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:09 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol To: reader-list at sarai.net > 1. If you see a post with which you disagree, your disagreement > should be > phrased so as to also imply an acknowledgement of the person's > right to > speak. > > 2. If you see a post whose language or attitude you find offensive or > unpalatable, just ignore it. Over a period of time, that will be > the best > filter to sort who is likely to speak constructively on this list. > > 3. The reader-list is a space for an exchange of ideas. > Therefore, speak in > order to learn, not in order to convince. > > 4. If your desire is to convince, then please think about whether a > discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon. > > 5. Attack issues, do not attack people. > > 6. When you respond to a post, do not just negate it, but engage > with it and > build on it in order to throw up a new idea into the public > commons that is > the reader-list. > > 7. When you post a new message on a fresh subject, do so only if > you feel > that critique or dissent will be helpful to you. > > 8. And finally, remember that we interact on this list through > language; and > language always has two dimensions - speaking and listening. > Participationin this list requires a commitment to both dimensions. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 6 15:52:32 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:22:32 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History In-Reply-To: <006201c87ed0$5edc1c80$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: "DEFANGED[1]:" <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3@mail.gmail.com> <200803011921.54873.ravikant@sarai.net> <"6353c690803021126p4a813 e 5fo7c40193757779ec0"@mail.gmail.com> <"7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78 c6 7b48e"@mail.gmail.com> <00a601c87d39$af7de350$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <"6353c690803030750h4f3b1c10x52d 3ef7f7d8c1afe"@mail.gmail.com> <009b01c87d5d$c8f59f70$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <006201c87ed0$5edc1c80$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: Ha, Ha, so now your BJP people and our cadres. ? Come on, let us be more stupid than this, if not more intelligent.The fact of the matter is people are killed, violence is justified by you for "your people," where as individuals like me are lost in the melee, as we are just ordinary citizens of the nation, not belonging to any class, caste or region., we are not required by anybody, individuals like us are seeing the spade as spade, and call it spade, irrespective of who holds it, ofcourse you have right to say that spade is instrument of poor to throw mud at others.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Aditya Raj Kaul , reader-list at sarai.net > So! Both are right? > This is one of the stupidest comments you might ever have made in > your life. > So CPM murders people, does this allow your BJP to murder and > wander > scottfree? > When the dogs fight with each other, they must leave the human > beings > alone. > Time for Radhikarjun's mails to go to the bullshit folder from now on. > How ridiculously narrow some people on this list have become. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "TaraPrakash" > Cc: "Aditya Raj Kaul" ; list at sarai.net>Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 3:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > Hey, > but chief minister did not even had courage to visit Nandigram > and singur > after his cadres killed "them" and paid them in the same coin.! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TaraPrakash > Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 12:09 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > To: Aditya Raj Kaul , reader-list at sarai.net > > > No less than the chief minister visited the murderer and who you > > might > > consider the upholder of Indian culture, in the prison. The only > > witness who > > came forward to testify was forced to recant by MP police. Where > > does the > > court come in to this? > > > > It is irony of Hindu religion and more so that of Ram, that his > > name has > > been misappropriated and now being dragged in to politics by > > murderers, > > liars, profiteers, opportunists. > > > > It is interesting though that your last couple messages talked > > more about > > the feud between Congress/NSUI and BJP/ABVP. And yes you right in > > your > > revised assumption that only these parties bring the campus to > > stand still > > on the non-issues. > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > > > > > > > Have you ever wondered why the Ujjain Murder Case of Prof. > > Sabharwal has > > > yet > > > not been solved ? You may say that Madhya Pradesh has a BJP let > > Govt. > > > which > > > controls everything directly or indirectly and influences every > > step > > > taken. > > > But, for your information; the case is now in Supreme Court and > > yet no > > > Justice. As I was personally linked with fighting the cases of > > Jessica > > > Lall > > > and Priyadarshini Mattoo; I tried to help Prof. Sabharwal's son > > in this > > > case > > > but unfortunately it was nothing much then a Congress -BJP > > tussle. I've > > > seen > > > the video recordings of the entire episode much before and even > > after the > > > incident. The whole episode has many negative elements apart > > from ABVP > > > which > > > have played a strong role. I've also met the senior advocate of > > supreme> court who happens to be the lawyer of Sabharwal's even he > > is tired of this > > > BJP-Congress game. You'll have to investigate it further before > > mere > > > playing > > > of blame game. > > > > > > We both agree to disagree with each other. But, its for sure > > that in > > > today's > > > senario be it NSUI, ABVP or for that matter the left SFI; they > > have lost > > > their track and are directionless moving in this democracy. They > > blindly > > > go > > > on the way their masters want them get in. The crores of monet > > spent on > > > glamourous student body elections especially in Delhi is well > > known to > > > all. > > > And, still this silence. It speaks volumes about the stumbling > > system.> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/3/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > >> > > >> Very peaceful in deed. They peacefully murder teachers and > > students. It's > > >> all about elections. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:38 AM > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > > History>> > > >> > > >> > Below is a newsitem from the Indian Express. Unlike SFI, > ABVP has > > >> decided > > >> > to > > >> > launch peacefull college to college awareness campaign. > > Unlike left > > >> > lazy > > >> > and > > >> > violent left wing, ABVP looks at the broader picture of > > students > > >> > studies > > >> > which should not get affected. Its high time left cheap > publicity> >> seekers > > >> > wake up and do some brainstorming. God Bless All. :-) > > >> > > > >> > Remarks on Lord Ram in textbook: ABVP to hold protests in DU > > colleges>> > ** > > >> > *Posted online: Monday , March 03, 2008 at 10:31:30 > > >> > * ** > > >> > *New Delhi, March 2* The ABVP is planning to hold protests > > across Delhi > > >> > University colleges against the inclusion of "atrocious" > > remarks on > > >> > Lord > > >> > Ram > > >> > in its history text books, activists said.' > > >> > > > >> > Twenty-four hours after being released from Tihar Jail, state > > joint>> > secretary of ABVP Vikas Dahiya—who was arrested on > > Tuesday for violent > > >> > protests in the university on the issue—said he wants the > > police to > > >> > take > > >> > action against the DU V-C Deepak Pental. > > >> > > > >> > He also demanded for action against head of the department > > (History) S > > >> > Z > > >> H > > >> > Jafri and Upinder Singh, daughter of Prime Minster Manmohan > > Singh, > > >> > whose > > >> > name is printed on the book as the compiler. > > >> > > > >> > "We are planning to lodge an FIR against them for hurting the > > religious>> > sentiments of Hindus," Dahiya said at a press > > conference held at North > > >> > Campus today. > > >> > > > >> > From Monday, Vikas said, ABVP activists would visit at > least two > > >> colleges > > >> > each day to seek support from principals and students for a > > >> > college-wise > > >> > demonstration. > > >> > > > >> > Vikas alleged the Delhi Police and DU authorities were biased > > and said > > >> > that > > >> > though arrest warrants were issued against eight persons, > > there were > > >> only > > >> > five people in the building during the violence. > > >> > > > >> > "When Amrita Bahri and Devraj Tehlan of the NSUI ran amok in > > the > > >> > History > > >> > Department last year, no action was taken against them," he > > claimed.>> > > > >> > Payal Mago, reader in DU and vice president of ABVP, said > > that if > > >> Upinder > > >> > Singh had not compiled the material as claimed by History > > Department,>> > "what > > >> > took her so long to deny charges". > > >> > > > >> > "The book has been in circulation for around one and a half > > years. She > > >> > could > > >> > have corrected the mistake any time," she said. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 3/3/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hi, with one billion and more people, let there be that many > > Ramayanas>> in > > >> >> their freedom of expression and creativity, but the issue > > here is does > > >> >> freedom of expression is only to denigrete others faith. ? > > Those > > >> >> places > > >> >> of > > >> >> learning which are filled with chamchas and hangers on who > > deride > > >> >> hindu > > >> >> faith should write that many bibles and qurans also, that is > > >> >> secularism > > >> >> at > > >> >> work. ! > > >> >> Regards. > > >> >> > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> >> From: Prem Chandavarkar > > >> >> Date: Monday, March 3, 2008 9:58 am > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University > > History>> >> To: Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 03/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote:>> >> > > > > >> >> > > We were well know that originally there are only two > > Ramayan's>> >> > that we > > >> >> > > recognise; one by Tulsidas and another by Valmiki. There > > maybe a > > >> few > > >> >> > > hundred > > >> >> > > more stories based on poetry from various places etc. > > But, lets > > >> >> > for a > > >> >> > > change > > >> >> > > concentrate on the original source while studying > > history in an > > >> >> > > institution > > >> >> > > rather then secondary and modern opinions, translations > > etc etc. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > To me, such a statement is the heart of the problem, and > > is the > > >> >> > reason why > > >> >> > this discussion thread started in the first place. It > implies> >> >> > that there is > > >> >> > a primary authoritative history which must be regarded, > > and many > > >> >> > secondaryhistories which can be immediately dismissed as > > inferior>> >> > and ignorable. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Such a classification should also be accompanied by an > > ethical and > > >> >> > intellectual justification of the basis on which it is > > made. It > > >> >> > cannot be > > >> >> > merely stated that this must be so because it is a > > majority belief > > >> >> > or a > > >> >> > historical imperative that has endured for ages, for that > > is the > > >> >> > argumentthat was used to defend colonialism, slavery and > > apartheid.>> >> > > > >> >> > Let me link this to an earlier thread on history and > > archive, and > > >> >> > put > > >> >> > forward the following proposition: The archive is an > ethical,> >> >> > rather than > > >> >> > epistemological, imperative of history as a discipline. > > History>> >> > cannot be > > >> >> > ethically validated without the discipline incorporating an > > >> >> > ongoing discourse on the basis of which something is to be > > >> >> > categorised as > > >> >> > archive, or dismissed as non-archive. > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> >> > list > > >> >> > List archive: list/>> >> >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Mar 6 16:29:10 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:59:10 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Commonwealth Village Update Message-ID: yamunajiye at gmail.com www.y4j.blogspot.com • Interviews with labours working in games village confirming deaths of labours du to deadly diesease and accidents. Interviews with labours who have left the work due to fear of death and untimely payment by contractor Interview with relative of one of the labour "samal" who died because of the disease Death certificate of "samal" confirming the death due to meningitis After Hindustan Times broke the news on 4th march about whisper of death at games village site, "Youth for Justice" decided to further investigate the issue.WE HAVE IMMEDIATELY FORMED A THREE MEMBER COMMITTEE TO LOOK INTO THE MATTER. we have spent last 36 hours interacting with labours, trying to find out facts. it was never easy as most of the labours are inside the campus and nobody is allowed to get into the campus. security guards are trying their level best to keep everyone away from the campus. we went to games village site and tried to interact with labours and other workers. the kind of secrecy that is being maintained at the site definately makes it appear as if it is not site for games village but of some nuclear plant. We interviwed some of the labours who are living near the site and who have left the work inside games vallige because of the outbreak of some deadly diesease inside the fortitfied campus. many of the labours have left the work and we have also interviewed two labours who are still working inside. what these labours have told us is horrifying and unbelievable, and we decided to share it woth all. we have decided to put all the information that we have collected on our blog. our investigation is still on and we will keep on updating the blog time to time. Here we are putting the information that we have received as it is. for detailed videos and pictures visit www.y4j.blogspot.com From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 6 16:20:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:50:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Assault upon the Delhi University History] In-Reply-To: <47CF7ADB.1020100@sarai.net> References: <47CF7ADB.1020100@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Vivek, how did my post miss your bullshit folder, I did not think it would be worthwhile to respond, now that you insist, here is my answer, hindu way of life has seen many individuals exploring its epics to best of their intellectual capacities, Ramanujan is also one of them. There are now billion individuals in the nation, who may or may not understand the basic tenets of the faith, but still they become with their muscle power, become,custodians of faith, which is again intangible to keep in custody. Faith is only guiding light to live humane life, whichever faith one chooses to live with, even rational way of life or that of socialist faith of false promise of justice and equity is also a faith for the custodians of that faith. Whichever faith gives an individual to live with other individuals a cause to live with dignity and respect, but when faith is used for governance of the society, then the scenes that we are seeing here in the list, on the roads, in society, become routine with each faith trying to be prohjected as the "only faith" for deliverence, hindu way of life has survived such assaults for many thousnads of years, only those who strayed away from the way of life have enjoyed power, like the ones you see now, but again power is also temporal, like all else in human life. That history department of DU used the notes to show the faith in a way suited for the "intellectuals" is no secret,intellectuals who have no notion of a nation except China, and head of history dept is has credit of being active jihadee, devoute for his faith..! And as usual, we always tolerate such, as we are tolerent. ? And the lady in question, Upinder, has credibilty at its low all time, like her father who wants N-deal to please his madam in kickbacks is well known, but individuals can only ponder, about a PM who is more loyal to his Madam and his past Master at world bank than his nation.People in Delhi being in air conditioned comforts can discuss every thing very intelligently, right. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vivek Narayanan Date: Thursday, March 6, 2008 10:32 am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History] To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > Dear Radhikarajen, > > You have not replied to my question below, but have made several > other > digressions since. Do you think the essay by A.K. Ramanujan is > denigrating to Hinduism, yes or no? If yes, please quote at least > one > sentence or phrase from the essay to back up your claim. > > Waiting for your answer, > Vivek > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Assault upon the Delhi University History > Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:26:23 +0530 > From: Vivek Narayanan > Organization: Sarai > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > References: > <1a9a8b710802260233s7e576159u84f70096ca2383a3 at mail.gmail.com> <"e3 > 91cca88881.47c8097a"@vsnl.net> > <200803011921.54873.ravikant at sarai.net> > <"47e122a70803010633q5 99edd1cv71229a6345f259a5"@mail.gmail.com> > <6353c690803021126p4a813e5fo7c40193757779ec0 at mail.gmail.com> > <7e230b560803022027o5dc5312et26da6fc78c67b48e at mail.gmail.com> > > > > > Dear Radhikarajen, > > Can you show me exactly how, and where, the essay by A.K. > Ramanujan is > denigrating to Hinduism? Please quote at least one sentence, or > even > one phrase, if you can, from the essay which denigrates Hinduism. > (I'm > assuming that you have actually read the complete essay.) > > As far as I can tell, Ramanujan's essay is a great tribute to > Hindu > (and, more generally, South Asian) storytelling traditions. > > Vivek > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 6 16:30:35 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:00:35 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacre of journalism in India In-Reply-To: <25c340bd0803060009x722e7d91ue726c9849613a4b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <25c340bd0803060009x722e7d91ue726c9849613a4b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey, to call commercial tv channels and the anchors as journalists is misnomer, they are celebritis, merchants of news, packaging news as they like to sell it for good trp and better ad revenues, they are blots on good journalism, and importance of news channels being partisan for favours is well known, most of them have lost credibility as the anchors and channels are far away from ground realities in India. Unlike weatern channels which covered 9/11 carnage, showing the calamity only two or three times and then covering the relief work more than the old footage, in India you can see all these channels showing the 12 year old footage even now every half an hour three times to seek favours with political party in power.Ofcourse Padma awards added incentive of sycophancy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bikash Ballabh Singh Date: Thursday, March 6, 2008 1:39 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Massacre of journalism in India To: reader-list at sarai.net > *A senior TV journalist recently reported the Nellie carnage with > three-year > old facts. He did not bother to update the story. Is it ethical to > packageold wine in a new bottle? Why does the Northeast receive > such treatment: A > review.* > by Nava Thakuria(Citizen Journalist) via merinews > > NORTHEAST INDIA has turned in to a land of happenings. From > insurgency to > ethnic tension and economic activities to cultural discourses, it > starteddrawing the attention of media worldwide. The alienated > region of the > country has suddenly woken up to an anniversary of a massacre that > tookplace 25 years back in Assam. A senior Indian journalist > released a book on > the issue in the national capital recently and suddenly a group of > reportersbegan to pile up their reporting space with the memory of > the carnage. Many > of them even did not bother to check the old information, while > puttingthose in their fresh columns (as might be nobody bothers > about Northeast). > > Meet Nitin A Gokhale, the senior editor, defence and strategic > affairs of > NDTV (New Delhi), who has recently contributed a column for the > portal of > the satellite channel > (http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN20080042819). > But out of callousness, the editor-journalist copied and pasted > more than 70 > per cent of the text from one of his earlier articles, released by > an Indian > portal ( > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main13.asp?filename=Ne070205The_simple.asp) > three years back. He even used the same quotes, where one of them > was a > local Panchayat member. Assam had the Panchayat election three > months back, > but Nitin did not bother to check his present status (whether he was > re-elected this time). More over the entire situation was re- > created for > Nitin (must be by God) when he had recently visited, Nellie, the > place of > the carnage. > > It may be mentioned that Nellie, a sleepy village of middle Assam > witnesseda horrifying massacre of thousands of Muslims in 1983. > The village, nearly > 90 km away from Guwahati became a center of media attraction > during the > period, when the Assam agitation led by All Assam Students Union > (AASU)reached the peak. It was the time, when New Delhi imposed an > election in the > state against the will of the indigenous people. The memory of Nellie > massacre still haunts the Assamese psyche irrespective of caste, > creed and > religion. > > But surprisingly enough, this sensitive issue was also taken for > manufacturing stories by the journalist, who used to stay in Assam > for some > time. Now based in New Delhi, Nitin had contributed a piece for > NDTV with > his three years old information. His column (with an 'I-Know-All' air) > titled 'Nellie revisited: 25 years on' uploaded on Saturday (March > 1), tends > to analyse the situation after his recent visit to the location. > The writer > also described the consequences of the carnage and its implication on > today's changing demographic pattern in the state. But leaving > aside first > few paragraphs of the write up on NDTV portal, the entire text was > simplyadded form an earlier article (by him of course) used by > Tehelka. In fact, > besides a little introduction of the Nellie massacre in reference > to a book > release by Hemendra Narayan in New Delhi recently, Nitin picked up > his old > text with minor updating. > > The journalist picked up all the quotes (as he did three years > back), and > used for his March 1 piece on NDTV. One of his quotes (Mohammed > NuruddinMunshi, the all-powerful leader of the community in the > area) described, "We > now number about 12,000-14,000 as against barely 3,000-odd in > 1983." The old > article contained the same line with the same description. So the > man must > have taken help of his memory to reveal the precise statistics to > Nitin'during a recent visit to Nellie'. The next quote (Suruj > Konwar, a > veterinary department employee) said exactly the same thing to > Nitin, as it > was reported in 1983. > > The editor provided some space to elaborate the profile of > Nuruddin, who was > 'then a 20-year-old having just completed his schooling in Arabic' > and later > 'began taking active interest in politics'. The next lines say, > "Today he is > the member of the Anchalik Parishad and a leader of the > community." The old > article (uploaded in July 2005) also described Nuruddin as the > member of the > Anchalik Parishad (a part of Panchyati Raj system in India). So he > must have > been re-elected in the Panchyat polls of Assam that took place during > December and January 2007. But there is no mention about it. It simply > implies that Nitin does not care about the authenticity of a quote > in his > column. The NDTV editor was communicated with his personal e-mail > address as > well as official feedback format, but no response was coming from him. > > Now the pertinent question that arises, whether a journalist is > allowed to > manufacture quotes for his write-ups those might speak biased > information?Moreover, is anyone is permitted to copy and paste > almost 80 per cent of his > own write up, even though the situation had been changed in three long > years. Are these not a clear case of unpardonable offence by the NDTV > editor, which could definitely hurt the moral and ethical values of > journalism? > > *PS. The readers may check **out both pieces, where paragraphs > lifted from > the earlier piece are in italics.* > > *Nellie revisited: 25 years on* > *Nitin Gokhale* > Senior Editor, Defence and Strategic Affairs > Saturday, March 1, 2008 (New Delhi) > > On February 18, 2008, the Delhi Press Club was the venue for a small > function organised by Hemendra Narayan, a veteran reporter, who > works with *The > Statesman* in New Delhi. The Occasion: Release of a monograph on > one of > independent India's darkest chapters: the massacre of over 3,000 > people at > Nellie in Assam. Exactly 25 years to date, Hemendra Narayan and a > couple of > other journalists - one from *Assam Tribune* and the other from > ABC news - > witnessed the cold blooded murder of migrant Muslims by a rampant mob. > > Narayan was then reporting from India's northeast for *The Indian > Express.*Could the reporters have done anything to save even one life? > Could they > have played saviours at a time when police and para-military > forces failed > to act? For over quarter of a century, Narayan battled with the > ghosts of > that day and played and replayed the horrific images in his mind's > eye and > finally decided to come up with the monograph as if to rid himself > of the > burden of the guilt that he carried for so long. > > Super Cop KPS Gill, who was Assam's Inspector General Police for > Law and > order during that period was present at the function to release the > monograph. He recalled the tough times and the circumstances under > which the > Nellie massacre took place. There are no clear-cut answers to what > wentwrong that time. But this is perhaps an appropriate occasion > to look back > how Assam's political landscape has changed over these intervening > 25 years. > > Nellie was the turning point in Assam's body politic. On a more > personalnote, I started my career as a journalist in Assam just > two months after the > infamous carnage. Since then I have visited Nellie a number of > times and > have found that in the past 25 years, the ground reality has > undergone a > total transformation. > > The Assam agitation (or movement as some people prefer to term it) > was a > result of the fear that the indigenous population had against > large-scale > influx of Bangladeshis into Assam. But this migration was nothing > new. In > the early 20th century hordes of people from what was then East > Bengal in > undivided India migrated to the sparsely populated yet fertile > BrahmaputraValley. > > They came in such large numbers that CS Mullan, an ICS officer and > the then > census commissioner, observed in 1931: "Probably the most > important event in > the province (Assam) during the last 25 years - an event, > moreover, which > seems likely to alter permanently the whole future of Assam and > the whole > structure of Assamese culture and civilisation - has been the > invasion of a > vast horde of land-hungry Bengali militants, mostly Muslims, from the > districts of Eastern Bengal in general and Mymensingh in > particular. It is > sad but by no means improbable that in another 30 years Sibsagar > districtwill be the only part of Assam in which an Assamese will > find himself at > home." > > *Mullan's prophecy did not come true as early as he predicted but > at the > turn of the century, the ground reality in most parts of Assam > resembleswhat the ics officer had foreseen more than 70 years ago. * > > *Today, the Assamese indeed finds himself outnumbered in at least nine > districts; most of the state's agriculture production and its > vegetables are > in the hands of the migrants. The migrant also makes up the > largest chunk of > labour force engaged in construction activities; over 80 percent > of the > state's cycle-rickshaws are pedalled by the migrants. The truth is > today'sAssam cannot do without this hardworking section of the > population. * > > *The flip side is that even politicians cannot do without them. > The ruling > Congress goes out of its way to appease the migrants and therefore > wants to > believe in the myth, perpetuated by its own propaganda machine, > that there > is no influx from Bangladesh. Sadly, the Asom Gana Parishad (AGP), > midwifedby the once powerful All Assam Students Union (AASU), also > did not do much > to deport illegal migrants during its two stints in power.* So > what's the > reality a quarter century after Nellie? > > During a recent visit to Nellie, I found the tide has truly > turned. Muslims > are no longer a minority there. They are also politically savvy. > Most of > their leaders realise that their safety lies in numbers. > > *The change is apparent in Nellie. In 1983, the Muslims were > outnumbered by > the Tiwa tribals; today the situation has completely reversed. > Says Mojen > Konwar of Nellie, who was witness to the massacre, "What happened then > cannot happen again because the minority has become a majority. > There are > bound to be problems in the coming years." The wizened old man, > however,hastens to add that the killing of the Muslims in 1983 was > the handiwork of > 'outsiders'. Narayan Radu Kakati, chairman of the Tiwa Autonomous > Council,meant to offer constitutional protection to the tribals, > concurs: "Our > people had no clue to the killings. It just happened as part of a > largerconspiracy." * > > *The Muslims, however, are not interested in knowing who the > killers were. > All they know is that the best protection they can have in the > areas is to > become a majority. The large-scale relocation of Muslim peasants from > neighbouring Morigaon and Nagaon districts has fulfilled that > plan. Admits > Mohammed Nuruddin Munshi, the all-powerful leader of the community > in the > area: "We now number about 12,000-14,000 as against barely 3,000- > odd in > 1983." Mohammad Moinuddin, a 70-year-old father of 10 children, > says he > shifted from nearby Jagiroad to the Nellie area and bought several > bighas of > land to support his family. "With so many mouths to feed, I needed > to get > more land and the land was available aplenty here," he says. Most > of the > land earlier belonged to the Tiwas who, for lack of enterprise, > are simply > selling it for short-term gains. * > > *The root of the problem is in fact the alienation of tribals from > the land. > The Tiwas, hopelessly outnumbered now, say their land is being > graduallybought over by the Muslims. "When people get Rs 30,000- > 40,000 per bigha, > they simply sell their land," says Suruj Konwar, a veterinary > departmentemployee. As a result, today Nellie's demography has > completely changed. * > *But most people have not forgotten the 1983 massacre. For > Nuruddin's elder > brother Mohammed Tamiruddin, the memory of February 18 is as > painful and > vivid as if it happened yesterday. "Between 8am and 3pm that day, > a mad > frenzy had gripped the attackers. They came, armed with daos > (matchet),country guns and lathis and surrounded us. First they > started burning our > hutments. We thought our lives at least would be spared but after > a while > the attackers started killing systematically. In our village > (Basundhari) we > lost 1,819 people that day. I and my brother Nuruddin were hiding > in a pond. > When the attackers started coming closer, we ran to the nearby railway > bridge and hid there till the CRPF came to our rescue. Between us, > we lost > 26 family members," Tamiruddin says, his eyes moistening at the > painfulmemories.* > > *After the killings, Nuruddin, then a 20-year-old having just > completed his > schooling in Arabic, began taking active interest in politics. > Today he is > the member of the Anchalik Parishad and a leader of the community. * > *Despite the harrowing experience he had to go through, he holds > no grudges. > "We have very cordial relations with our Hindu brothers here. > There is no > tension. In fact, 30 percent of our children study at a school > located in a > Hindu majority area," he emphasises. * > > *There may not be any tension but the residents are always alert. > As I > ventured into the interiors, leaving the NH37 passing through > Nellie, word > reached Nuruddin, who was some 10 km inside that strangers were > coming to > meet him, courtesy the ubiquitous mobile phone. Someone had called up > Nuruddin to inform about the strangers' arrival.* > > *Afraid that something was wrong, Nuruddin waited for us near the > mosque in > the village instead of his house. Many others were around him as > we reached > the village square. The safety in numbers theory was very > apparent. As we > talked, the tension gradually faded but it was clear that no > newcomer could > now enter the Muslim villages of Nellie without being noticed.* > > *Clearly, Nuruddin and his fellow men have learnt from the 1983 > experience.None of them want to be at the receiving end. Indeed, > most people in Assam > now know that the outcome of a Nellie repeat would be much > different. That's > the ground reality today.* > > Soruce: http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=130768 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 16:31:26 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:01:26 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] High Court's Landmark Decision on Chittagong Hill Tracts Message-ID: Finally the beginning of justice for the indigenous people on Chittagong Hill Tracts, under siege and fighting a guerilla war (and now a PR war) for regional autonomy. ########## High Court Judgment to Set up Civil and Criminal Courts and Suppression of Violence against Women Tribunals in the Chittagong Hill Tracts The High Court on 24th Februart 2008 directed the Government to set up three separate civil and criminal courts and Nari o Shishu Nirjatan Domon (Suppression of Violence against Women and Children) Tribunals in Rangamati, Khagrachari and Bandarban Districts in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, as soon as possible, and no later than one year from the date of judgment.1 The judgment was given in a writ petition filed in 2006 by the Bangladesh Legal Aid and Services Trust (BLAST) and others, on behalf of the peoples of three hill districts, seeking directions upon the Government to give immediate effect to existing laws which provide for the establishment of such courts in the CHT and to implement the constitutional mandate for separation of the judiciary .2 It is hoped that implementation of this judgment will address the acute crisis regarding access to justice in the CHT. Reportedly over 3,500 cases from the three districts have been lying unresolved before the Chittagong Session Judge's Court for many years. Hundreds of people in the Bandarban district alone have been languishing in prisons without facing any trial due to the existing backlogs and the lack of any accessible forum to hear their cases. Background The judicial system of the three districts which formerly comprised the Chittagong Hill Tracts ? Rangamati, Khagrachari and Bandarban ? was earlier governed by the Chittagong Hill Tracts Regulation 1900, leaving the executive in control of all judicial functions. Further, no District or Sessions Judges' Courts were ever been established in the three Hill Districts, the Chittagong-based Additional Divisional Commissioner, being an executive official, dispensing judicial functions in the cases. Consequently, there is no separation of the judiciary from the executive relating to cases within the CHT. And the practical obstacles to access to justice are immense, with anyone residing in the CHT and requiring access to any appellate forum needing to travel all the way to Chittagong to seek justice. Although the Chittagong Hill Tracts Regulation (Amendment) Act, 2003 provided for establishing civil and criminal courts in the three hill districts and later, Section 26 of the Nari-O-Shishu?Nirjatan- Daman- Ain 2000 also provided for establishing separate Nari o Shishu Nirjaton Domon Tribunals, no steps were taken by the government to act on this legislative mandate. In the last year, despite legislative and administrative steps having been taken in the last year for separation of the judiciary from executive, pursuant to the celebrated judgment in Government of Bangladesh versus Masdar Hossain, no steps were taken to extend these steps to the CHT. Contact Person: Amatul Karim, Senior Staff Lawyer, Bangladesh Legal Aid and Services Trust (BLAST), 141/1 Segubagicha, Dhaka 1000; amatul at blast.org.bd; 01718-907729 (mobile) Here is the English version http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/03/06/high-court-judgment-for-the-people-of-cht/ Here is the Bangla version: http://www.drishtipat.org/bangla/?p=20 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 6 16:33:02 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:03:02 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol In-Reply-To: <413023.73518.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> <413023.73518.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One who dares to teach shall never cease to learn. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: we wi Date: Thursday, March 6, 2008 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Proposal for a reader-list protocol To: prem.cnt at gmail.com, reader-list at sarai.net > wow! That sounds a good teacher teaches basics to the students. > > I think u mean usage of parlimentary language. > > Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > 1. If you see a post with which you disagree, your disagreement > should be > phrased so as to also imply an acknowledgement of the person's > right to > speak. > > 2. If you see a post whose language or attitude you find offensive or > unpalatable, just ignore it. Over a period of time, that will be > the best > filter to sort who is likely to speak constructively on this list. > > 3. The reader-list is a space for an exchange of ideas. Therefore, > speak in > order to learn, not in order to convince. > > 4. If your desire is to convince, then please think about whether a > discussion forum is a place you should intrude upon. > > 5. Attack issues, do not attack people. > > 6. When you respond to a post, do not just negate it, but engage > with it and > build on it in order to throw up a new idea into the public > commons that is > the reader-list. > > 7. When you post a new message on a fresh subject, do so only if > you feel > that critique or dissent will be helpful to you. > > 8. And finally, remember that we interact on this list through > language; and > language always has two dimensions - speaking and listening. > Participationin this list requires a commitment to both dimensions. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! Search. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From postbodhi at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 6 18:02:41 2008 From: postbodhi at yahoo.co.in (Bodhisattva Kar) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 12:32:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Conference in Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta: The 'Long' 1950s Message-ID: <652602.34284.qm@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear friends, The Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta is organizing a three-day conference on "The 'Long' 1950s" from March 18 through March 20, 2008. The conference seeks to bring together a sample of the critical, interdisciplinary and innovative scholarship to reflect on the significance of the nineteen fifties in the making of post-colonial South Asia. We feel privileged to invite you to the conference. Please find the detailed conference schedule below. We would be grateful if you could forward this schedule to interested persons. My apologies for the cross-posting. Regards, Bodhisattva Kar Fellow in History, Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta ...................................................................................................................... The ‘Long’ 1950s 18-20 March 2008 Conference Schedule Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta R-1, Baishnabghata Patuli Township, Kolkata 700 094. Ph: 91-33-24625794/5 DAY ONE: 18 March 2008, Tuesday Inaugural session: 10:00 – 10:30 Panel 01: “India, i. e., Bharat” Chair: Partha Chatterjee (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 10:30-11:30 Badri Narayan (G. B. Pant Social Science Institute, Allahabad), “The Making of Dream: The Long of 1950 in a Village of North India” Discussant: Anjan Ghosh (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Tea: 11:30-11:45 11:45-12:45 Flavia Agnes (Majlis, Mumbai), “Nation Building through the Enactment of Hindu Code Bill: The Nehruvian Agenda” Discussant: Janaki Nair (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 12:45-13:45 Dilip Subramanian (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris) “Labour Relations in Public Sector Companies during the Long 1950s: The Case of ITI” Discussant: Samita Sen (Jadavpur University, Calcutta) Lunch: 13:45-14:45 Panel 02: The Fixed and the Floating Chair: Pranab Kumar Das (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 14:45-15:45 Anil Persaud (International Institute of Social History, Amsterdam) “Between Colonization and Independence: Debating Indian Citizenship in the 1950s” Discussant: Pradip Bose (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 15:45-16:45 Joya Chatterji (University of Cambridge) “Migrants, Minorities and Citizens: Nationality in India 1947-57” Discussant: Pradip Kumar Datta (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) DAY TWO: 19 March 2008, Wednesday Panel 03: Developmentality Chair: Jyotsna Jalan (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 10:00-11:00 Pulapre Balakrishnan (Nehru Memorial Museum and Library, New Delhi) “The Recovery of India: Public Policy and Economic Growth in the Nehru Era” Discussant: Dwaipayan Bhattacharya (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 11:00-12:00 Benjamin Zachariah (University of Sheffield) “The Tragedy of Developmentalism: ‘Nehruvianism’ in India” Discussant: Bodhisattva Kar (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Tea: 12:00-12:15 12:15-1:15 Riddhi Sankar Ray (Indian Statistical Institute, Calcutta) “Did Zamindari Abolition Matter in Bengal, in the 1950s?” Discussant: Partha Chatterjee (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Lunch: 13:15-14:15 Panel 04: Nations of Narrations Chair: Rosinka Chaudhuri (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 14:15-15:15 M. Madhava Prasad (The English and Foreign Languages University, Hyderabad) “The Republic of Babel: Language and Political Subjectivity in Free India” Discussant: Manas Ray (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 15:15-16:15 G. Arunima (Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi) “Faultlines: Or Rethinking the Malayali ‘Literary Public Sphere’“ Discussant: Anirban Das (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Tea: 16:15-16:30 16:30-17:30 Rajarshi Dasgupta (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) “Technology as the Experience of Nature: Communist Art in the Fifties” Discussant: Moinak Biswas (Jadavpur University, Calcutta) DAY THREE: 20 March 2008, Thursday Panel 05: The New Urban Chair: Dhrubajyoti Ghosh (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 10:00-11:00 Awadhendra Sharan (Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, New Delhi) “Zones of Contention: Location, Environment and the Modern City” Discussant: Priya Sangameswaran (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 11:00-12:00 Markus Daechsel (University of Edinburgh) “Culture and Development in the Urban Built Environment: Pakistan in the Age of the International Consultant, c.1947-1965” Discussant: Keya Dasgupta (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Tea: 12:00-12:15 12:15-13:15 A. Srivathsan (‘The Hindu’, Chennai) “Marking the Urban” Discussant: Sohel Firdos (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Lunch: 13:15-14:15 Panel 06: Laughing Mirrors Chair: Manabi Majumdar (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 14:15-15:15 Dilip Menon (University of Delhi) “‘Don’t Spare Me Shankar’: Shankar’s Weekly and Political Cartooning in the Nehruvian Fifties, 1947-1964” Discussant: Tapati Guha-Thakurta (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) 15:15-16:15 Baidik Bhattacharya (University of Newcastle upon Tyne) “The Apocalypse That Will Never Be: Reading Political Ambivalence in Paraśurām’s Short Stories” Discussant: Sibaji Bandyopadhyay (Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta) Valedictory session: 16:15 – 16:30 --------------------------------- Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download. From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Mar 6 18:39:29 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:09:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] RFID for security and privacy? Message-ID: <5DD124D4-DB83-41CC-9E67-E5F8A01E27F3@sarai.net> dear all, here is a news item. can anybody in the list please explain how RFID technologies will enhance "citizens the tools and choices they need to ensure privacy and security"? warmly jeebesh http://www.igovernment.in/site/ec-launches-consultation-on-rfid-usage- issues/ EC launches consultation on RFID usage issues Prithwi March 6, 2008 | RFID & Smart Card and e-Gov. | Brussels: The European Commission (EC) launched a public consultation on the Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology issues relating to privacy, data protection and information security. The Commission has requested inputs relating to scope of RFID, its use in the retail sector and role in information security, and need for awareness-raising activities, reports ePractice. Predicting that the RFID market will grow rapidly over the next 10 years, the Commission said that RFID technology is expected to create many new opportunities for European business. It further said the public sector would see a lot of RFID technology usage including e-Government, national defence and security, apart from usage in consumer field including personal safety, sports and leisure, smart homes and smart cities. The public consultation has been launched to support preparation of the Commission’s forthcoming ‘Recommendation on RFID’, due to be adopted later in 2008. The key challenge for the recommendation will be to devise a common vision and set goals of how it can keep Europe innovative and competitive in the world economy, giving citizens the tools and choices they need to ensure privacy and security. —iGovernment Bureau From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 18:31:57 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:31:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] RFID for security and privacy? In-Reply-To: <5DD124D4-DB83-41CC-9E67-E5F8A01E27F3@sarai.net> References: <5DD124D4-DB83-41CC-9E67-E5F8A01E27F3@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6353c690803060501u35190309qa7a22f20d24f1a1e@mail.gmail.com> One of friends Aditya Razdan is an expert in RFID Technology in entire South-Asia.He works as the Regional Sales Manager- South Asia of AssA Abloy ITG. Their website is http://www.aaitg.com He can be also reached at razdan.aditya at gmail.com Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/6/08, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > dear all, > > here is a news item. can anybody in the list please explain how RFID > technologies will enhance "citizens the tools and choices they need > to ensure privacy and security"? > > warmly > > jeebesh > > http://www.igovernment.in/site/ec-launches-consultation-on-rfid-usage- > issues/ > > > EC launches consultation on RFID usage issues > Prithwi > March 6, 2008 | RFID & Smart Card and e-Gov. | > > Brussels: The European Commission (EC) launched a public consultation > on the Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology issues > relating to privacy, data protection and information security. > > The Commission has requested inputs relating to scope of RFID, its > use in the retail sector and role in information security, and need > for awareness-raising activities, reports ePractice. > > Predicting that the RFID market will grow rapidly over the next 10 > years, the Commission said that RFID technology is expected to create > many new opportunities for European business. > > It further said the public sector would see a lot of RFID technology > usage including e-Government, national defence and security, apart > from usage in consumer field including personal safety, sports and > leisure, smart homes and smart cities. > > The public consultation has been launched to support preparation of > the Commission's forthcoming 'Recommendation on RFID', due to be > adopted later in 2008. > > The key challenge for the recommendation will be to devise a common > vision and set goals of how it can keep Europe innovative and > competitive in the world economy, giving citizens the tools and > choices they need to ensure privacy and security. > —iGovernment Bureau > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 18:38:12 2008 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 18:38:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Request to list moderator In-Reply-To: References: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> <413023.73518.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47CFECBC.9020302@gmail.com> Dear all, Can we request the moderator to limit the number of postings a person can make in a day? Five would be a good number I think. Internet access is no longer an issue with a large section of people. And this could be done keeping in mind those who use this list as a chat room. Frankly speaking if people are interested in light repartee (or as in this case, vacuous repartee), then there are undoubtedly other places for them to visit. I am tired of this charade of letting everyone have their say . . . obviously the most regular postings on the list of late, have been from people who have endless amounts to say, purely because they are posting replies so furiously they haven't had any time to think. This I think in some circles, is also known as abuse. Best Sukanya From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Mar 6 19:35:27 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 19:05:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] RFID for security and privacy? In-Reply-To: <6353c690803060501u35190309qa7a22f20d24f1a1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5DD124D4-DB83-41CC-9E67-E5F8A01E27F3@sarai.net> <6353c690803060501u35190309qa7a22f20d24f1a1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3273B2C0-C1C9-475B-9BB1-B26BF3DDDB98@sarai.net> dear Razdan, Aditya Kaul referred you as someone who can explain the RFID technologies relation to citizen's empowerment. Enclosed below is a news report that claims "citizens the tools and choices they nee to ensure privacy and security"?. Was wondering how an electronic tagging system make citizens secure. Will be nice if you could help us understand this. Thanks in advance. warmly jeebesh On 06-Mar-08, at 6:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > One of friends Aditya Razdan is an expert in RFID Technology in entire > South-Asia.He works as the Regional Sales Manager- South > Asia +Manager-+South+Asia%22> > of > AssA Abloy ITG +Abloy+ITG%22>. > Their website is http://www.aaitg.com > > He can be also reached at razdan.aditya at gmail.com > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/6/08, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: >> >> dear all, >> >> here is a news item. can anybody in the list please explain how RFID >> technologies will enhance "citizens the tools and choices they need >> to ensure privacy and security"? >> >> warmly >> >> jeebesh >> >> http://www.igovernment.in/site/ec-launches-consultation-on-rfid- >> usage- >> issues/ >> >> >> EC launches consultation on RFID usage issues >> Prithwi >> March 6, 2008 | RFID & Smart Card and e-Gov. | >> >> Brussels: The European Commission (EC) launched a public consultation >> on the Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology issues >> relating to privacy, data protection and information security. >> >> The Commission has requested inputs relating to scope of RFID, its >> use in the retail sector and role in information security, and need >> for awareness-raising activities, reports ePractice. >> >> Predicting that the RFID market will grow rapidly over the next 10 >> years, the Commission said that RFID technology is expected to create >> many new opportunities for European business. >> >> It further said the public sector would see a lot of RFID technology >> usage including e-Government, national defence and security, apart >> from usage in consumer field including personal safety, sports and >> leisure, smart homes and smart cities. >> >> The public consultation has been launched to support preparation of >> the Commission's forthcoming 'Recommendation on RFID', due to be >> adopted later in 2008. >> >> The key challenge for the recommendation will be to devise a common >> vision and set goals of how it can keep Europe innovative and >> competitive in the world economy, giving citizens the tools and >> choices they need to ensure privacy and security. >> —iGovernment Bureau >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From isouweine at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 20:06:29 2008 From: isouweine at gmail.com (Isaac souweine) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 22:36:29 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Request to list moderator In-Reply-To: <47CFECBC.9020302@gmail.com> References: <7e230b560803050638ha668b3foa80f1108fc47be5e@mail.gmail.com> <413023.73518.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <47CFECBC.9020302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <34bf33330803060636l132652fax1678dd94963c833f@mail.gmail.com> I think a posting limit might be a worthy middle ground between the idealized poles of "unfettered discursive commons" and "safe place where the crazies can't bother us" that have characterized the ongoing debate on list etiquette. Posting limits would force people to think a bit more carefully about what/when they choose to write and would encourage the most reckless sniping to move off line (where it would of course wither and die, since the whole point is to snipe with an audience). And, crucially, the posting limit does not really curtail free speech (the burning sixth post can always be delivered *kal subha mein*), rather, it just manages it for the betterment of the community. Perhaps enforcement of the limit would be impractical, but at the least it is an interesting contribution to the questions of communal self organization raised by the etiquette question. It would be nice if people took the time to edit their posts too :-) Cheers, Isaac On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:08 PM, sukanya ghosh wrote: > Dear all, > > Can we request the moderator to limit the number of postings a person > can make in a day? Five would be a good number I think. Internet access > is no longer an issue with a large section of people. And this could be > done keeping in mind those who use this list as a chat room. Frankly > speaking if people are interested in light repartee (or as in this case, > vacuous repartee), then there are undoubtedly other places for them to > visit. > I am tired of this charade of letting everyone have their say . . . > obviously the most regular postings on the list of late, have been from > people who have endless amounts to say, purely because they are posting > replies so furiously they haven't had any time to think. This I think in > some circles, is also known as abuse. > > Best > Sukanya > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cahen.x at levels9.com Tue Mar 4 15:48:08 2008 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:18:08 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 28-02 to 14-03-2008 Message-ID: <47CD21E0.3030902@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualite du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Sunday, February 28, 2008 through Monday, March 14, 2008 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) @ 001 (28/02/2008) Publication: "Trois plaidoyers pour un art holographique", Nicolas A. A. Brun, Editions L'Harmattan, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35502-tit--Trois-plaidoyers-pour-un-art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (28/02/2008) Call for Participation: HoritzoTV, Barcelona, Spain. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35506-tit-Appel-a-partitipation-HoritzoTV- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (28/02/2008) Publication: [d]écrire - [be]schreiben, entre Nice et Berlin, Germany. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35511-tit--d-ecrire- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (28/02/2008) Call: Film Festival Tour 2008, Germany. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35518-tit--Film-Festival-Tour-2008- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (28/02/2008) Call: e-MobiLArt: European Mobile Lab for Interactive Artists, Workshops, Europe. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35519-tit-Appel-a-Candidature-e-MobiLArt-European -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (28/02/2008) Call: Web Flash Festival, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35520-tit--Web-Flash-Festival- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (28/02/2008) Call: Photography competition 2008 pixelcreation, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35521-tit--Concours-de-photographie-2008 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (28/02/2008) Call: Festival of Regions 2009, Normality, Ottensheim, Austria. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35522-tit--Festival-of-Regions-2009-Normality- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (28/02/2008) Job: Director Casco, office for art, Utrecht, Netherlands. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35523-tit--Casco-office-for-art-Pays-Bas- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (28/02/2008) Call: Hack.Fem.East. Berlin, Germany. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35525-tit--Hack-Fem-East-Berlin- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (28/02/2008) Appel à candidature : European Sound Delta, Radio Art, Europe. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35526-tit--European-Sound-Delta-Radio-Art- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (28/02/2008) Call for participation: city hall elections, Fred Forest, Nice, Second Life. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35529-tit--Elections-municipales-creation-Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (29/02/2008) Call for participation: Call for Papers for the symposium, the political voice of artists "La parole politique des artistes", MSH Paris Nord, Saint-Denis, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35536-tit--Appel-a-contributions-pour-le-colloque- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (29/02/2008) Meetings: Ernest Pignon-Ernest : a theater in the silent noise of the city, Friday, February 29, 2008, Sorbonne University, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35539-tit--Ernest-Pignon-Ernest-un-theatre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (29/02/2008) Residencies: Abbaye de la Pree, Pour Que l’Esprit Vive Association , Segry, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35541-tit--Abbaye-de-la-Pree-Association-Pour-Que -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (29/02/2008) Residencies: visual artist, La malterie, Lille, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35543-tit--Artistes-plastitiens-La-malterie-Lille- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (29/02/2008) Residencies: arts visuels, Le point Ephemere, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35545-tit--arts-visuels-Le-point-Ephemere-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (29/02/2008) Call: "Parole Photographique" competition, Actuphoto.com, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35546-tit--concours-Parole-Photographique- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (29/02/2008) Call: New York Photo Awards 2008, New York, Usa. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35547-tit--New-York-Photo-Awards-2008-New-York- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (29/02/2008) Call: "Bourse du Talent #34 REPORTAGE" competition, photographie.com, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35548-tit--Bourse-du-Talent-34-REPORTAGE- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (01/03/2008) Meetings: Cultural programme in March 2008, conference room, ensba, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35512-tit--culturel-mars-2008-salle-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (01/03/2008) Publication: (U)L.S n°0, (Un)Limited store, Lendroit, Rennes, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35516-tit--U-L-S-n-0-Un-Limited-store-Lendroit- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (01/03/2008) Residencies: Artist In Residence, Balatonfured/Csopak, Hungary. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35540-tit-Residences-Artist-In-Residence- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (01/03/2008) Call for Participation: Call for contributions: Days CEAQ 2008, University Paris Descartes - Sorbonne, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35544-tit--appel-a-contribution-Journees-du-CEAQ -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (02/03/2008) Call: Seoul International Film Festival, Korea. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35524-tit--Seoul-International-Film-Festival- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (03/03/2008) Meetings: Signals in the City, Exhibition & Colloquium, 3 March – 2 May 2008, University of Abertay Dundee, Dundee, United Kingdom http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35441-tit--Signals-in-the-City-Exhibition- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (03/03/2008) Job: The digital hub des Beaux Arts in Paris recruits: audiovisual technician, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35504-tit--Le-pole-numerique-des-Beaux-arts-de-Paris -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (03/03/2008) Meetings: Numerica, generic-festival, Montbeliard, Mulhouse, Belfort, Besançon, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35508-tit--Numerica-generic-festival-Montbeliard- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (03/03/2008) Divers : Program for the 10th Spring of Poets "10e Printemps des Poetes" « Eloge de l’autre », Crossroads, crosses, interchanges, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35537-tit-Divers-programme-pour-le-10e-Printemps-des -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (03/03/2008) Publication : "When artists, dissidents and Jews fleeing the Nazis " Quand les artistes, les dissidents et les Juifs fuyaient les nazis (Marseille, 1940-1941), Varian Fry, Editions Agone, Marseille, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35551-tit--Quand-les-artistes-les-dissidents-et-les -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (03/03/2008) Call: 2nd Biennial 01SJ Global Festival of Art on the Edge in San Jose, Usa. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35550-tit--2nd-Biennial-01SJ-Global-Festival-of-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (03/03/2008) Publication: N°1, review So Multiples, Review of french editions of contemporary artists, Lille, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35552-tit--N-1-La-revue-So-Multiples-Revue -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (03/03/2008) Call fo participation: Call for Papers, a publication of Issue 2 of the review So Multiples, Lille, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35553-tit--Appel-a-contribution-publication-du -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (03/03/2008) Publication: Launch of the review Pause, Frac Bourgogne, ut of the first issue in April 2008, Dijon, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35555-tit--Lancement-de-la-revue-Pause-Frac -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (04/03/2008) Meetings: Symposium at the School of Fine Arts in Nantes, 4, 5 and 6 March 2008, Nantes, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35442-tit--Colloque-a-l-ecole-des-beaux-arts-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (05/03/2008) Meetings: Pascale Cassagnau, Observatoire des nouveaux medias, March 5, 2008, Ensad, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35538-tit--Pascale-Cassagnau-Observatoire-des -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (06/03/2008) Various: Evening poetry readings and performances, Ecole d'Art de Calais, Calais, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35558-tit-Divers-Soiree-lectures-poesies-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (07/03/2008) Meetings: Educational Programs of the Centre Pompidou, Festival du reel, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35510-tit--s-educatifs-du-Centre-Pompidou-Festival -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 040 (08/03/2008) Meetings: LES SCIENCES BRUITISTES, Instants chavirés, March 8, 2008, Montreuil, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35444-tit--LES-SCIENCES-BRUITISTES-Instants -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 041 (12/03/2008) Meetings: From the point at line: continuities and discontinuities in aboriginal art practices, the seminar « Art et changement social ; l’artification », Ehess, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35430-tit--Du-point-a-la-ligne-continuites-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 042 (12/03/2008) Meetings: Workshop, Claude Rutault, definitions and methods, Wednesday, March 12, 2008, INHA, Paris, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35549-tit--Journee-d-etude-Claude-Rutault- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 043 (14/03/2008) Exhibition: Exhibition Marc Geneix / Sebastian Maloberti, exhibition space Falexpo, Clermont-Ferrand, France. http://www.pourinfos.org/art-35534-tit--Marc-Geneix-Sebastien-Maloberti- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From and at engagemedia.org Thu Mar 6 07:55:50 2008 From: and at engagemedia.org (andrew lowenthal) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:25:50 +1100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Transmission Asia-Pacific - Call for Applications Message-ID: Hi, you may have seen this going around already but thought I'd better email you directly to be sure. Cheers. Andrew ------------ Transmission Asia-Pacific - Call for Applications EngageMedia and Ruangrupa would like to announce Transmission Asia- Pacific: a meeting of video activists and free software developers using online video distribution for social justice and media democracy. Sukabumi, Indonesia, May 19-25, 2008. http://transmission.cc/txap Online video distribution is rapidly reshaping social change film making, huge opportunities now exist to distribute video work widely, independently and at minimal cost. The potential of online distribution to advance social justice, human rights, environmental and other causes is significant. With this in mind Transmission Asia- Pacific (TX-AP) aims to bring together free software web developers and video activists from throughout the region to share skills and forge collaborations. TX-AP will bring together 50 people for five days on the edge of the Gede Pangrango National Park near Sukabumi, 120km from Jakarta. TX-AP will be a space for video makers to learn about free and open source video tools and interface with the technologists developing them. For developers it will be an opportunity to share skills and share code in order to be more effective. The meeting will allow developers to better understand the needs of video makers and for video makers to understand and contribute to the processes of development. TX-AP is a meeting of peers where everyone brings something to contribute. The TX-AP meeting will link into the existing Transmission network. Transmission is a network of video activists, artists, researchers, programmers and web producers who are developing online video distribution tools for social justice and media democracy. The network aims to build the necessary tools, standards, documentation and social networks to make independent online distribution possible. http://transmission.cc The core aims of the meeting are to * build a regional network of online video web developers, online video projects and video makers who can work together into the future * develop the skills of video activists in the areas of encoding, online distribution, open formats and Free software. * develop and discuss new online video tactics in campaigning * increase the uptake and collaboration around shared FOSS online video distribution tools such as Content Management Systems * build upon existing Transmission projects such as translation tools, metadata standard, FOSS codecs, documentation etc. and their application in the region * ensure programmers leave with an enhanced understanding of online video development, understanding of video makers needs and the ability to run video distribution software Who should apply? We're looking for activist video makers, organisers and web- developers from the Asia-Pacific region. If you are a web developer you should have a keen interest in open source technologies, have some knowledge of software programming and preferably already be working with video. If you are a video maker you should already be accomplished in your field and have made several videos. We're looking for video makers and web developers who will take back the skills they learn to their communities and pass them on. How to Apply? To apply to attend you need to fill out the online form here which you can find here: http://www.transmission.cc/Asia_Pacific_Application_Form We particularly encourage women to apply. Please note that given the range of countries participants will be coming from English will be the main language used at the meeting. If you have any questions about the application form or the event you can contact the organisers here: http://www.engagemedia.org/contact-info APPLICATIONS CLOSE ON MARCH 21 Why isn't the meeting open? Due to funding and venue limitations we're not able to make the meeting open for anyone to attend. Apart from specific trainers and Transmission network project leads participants are restricted to the Asia-Pacific region. We are also committed to at least 1/3 of participants being women and that the meeting as a whole is representative of the region, ie that wealthier attendees from a couple of countries do not dominate the meeting. Costs and Scholarships There are a limited number of travel scholarships for people to attend. In the application form you should specify if you need a scholarship and why. There is also a small, scaled attendance fee to help cover costs such as food an accommodation. This is either $75, $50 or $25. This fee can be waived if an attendee or organisation is unable to afford it. All food, accomodation and local transport will be covered for all attendees. Transmission Asia-Pacific is supported by Hivos and the Open Society Institute. More info: http://transmission.cc/txap EngageMedia: http://engagemedia.org Ruangrupa: http://ruangrupa.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 21:55:49 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 21:55:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena Message-ID: <98f331e00803060825i7bcacdf0vf86f048115f57122@mail.gmail.com> *Dear all, * *The anti-people gangs like Shiv Sena and MNS are once again preaching hatred against the north-Indians, particularly peole from Bihar and UP. you can read an essay on Shiv Sena published in The Marxist, Apr-June, 2000 ( www.cpim.org), which give an insight to the rise of such politics in Bombay. Here is the link...* *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* ** *Regards,* Prakash ** ** From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 00:49:04 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 00:49:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is the Communist Party of India Extinct or Getting There? Message-ID: <6353c690803061119q375ef876jf5a58c314aaca1ae@mail.gmail.com> Is the Communist Party of India Extinct or Getting There? Venkatesh Sridhar I was doing something that I normally do, surfing the Internet and was checking the Times of India website and what do I come across on the front page of the site - Left demands ban on Twenty20 cricket. I was intrigued by this really stupid demand from the Left, but well what else can we expect out of India's commie brigade. On reading further I found out that there is a comrade named Gurudas Dasgupta... read more on - http://desicritics.org/2008/02/24/011522.php Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 00:52:51 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 00:52:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Untold story of a Great Betrayal Message-ID: <6353c690803061122y37fe1cb5n7fc8c3e4ec7261fe@mail.gmail.com> The Untold story of a Great Betrayal This Post is to evaluate the role of CPI (Later CPI & CPM) in India's Freedom Struggle and later (such as China War, etc) Introduction Nationalism as a concept is alien to communism. For a communist, Ideology comes first before country. For several years, they even had difficulty accepting India as a single country, they used to call India a confederation of nations. So it is not surprising that the communists called all national heroes names - Mahatma Gandhi, Subhas Bose, Jaya Prakash Narain to name a few. In last 100 years of their existence in India they tried to sabotag the Quit movement, refused to accept India's freedom, started an armed rebellion against the Indian state, sided with China in the Sino-Indian conflict in 1962, supported the Emergency and press censorship in 1975, criticized Pokharan-II etc. However, the most subversive role of the communist movement has been providing philosophical and intellectual support to all separatist movements. CPI leadership supported the two nation theory thus Pakistan demand of the Muslim league. They even accepted Sikhs Demand for separate homeland. Of all, The role of CPI during China war is the most Disgusting. It ranged from Declaring "Chairman Mao, Our Chairman" to giving overt and covert support to china . We will broadly divide CPI's role into two Section namely Before Independence, After Independence read more at - http://mutiny.in/2008/03/05/the-untold-story-of-a-great-betrayal/ Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 01:11:44 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 01:11:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shivratri - The Great Night of Shiva Message-ID: <6353c690803061141n3b6c0d65ye02dab0c1f8eb302@mail.gmail.com> *Shivratri is one of the most popular festivals in the Hindu world, celebrated with devotion and fervour by millions of Hindus each year. This year it falls on March 6th (today!).* *In the Hindu view, the Divine Being transcends all human conceptualisation, yet can be approached in many ways. The deities of Hinduism reflect realizations of God on various levels, as experienced by ancient Rishis in deep meditation. Shiva is one of the most important deities, and His worship forms part of the daily lives of many Hindus. He is the Lord of Yogis, the Lord of Time and the Destroyer. The destructive aspect of Shiva is not something to be feared; it is destruction for the purpose of regeneration. He destroys that which is old and impure in order to make room for a new creation, which is pure and divine. On an inward level, He oversees the annihilation of old habits, attachments and ego - all essential for us to progress on the spiritual path.* *read more @ http://thehinduvoice.com/blog/2008/03/06/shivratri-the-great-night-of-shiva/ * ** *Thanks* *Aditya Raj Kaul * From anirdutt at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 07:55:44 2008 From: anirdutt at gmail.com (aniruddha dutta) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 20:25:44 -0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Without Muslims we are rootless: KPs Message-ID: <96a8bb180803061825n1e9e0e54m8ff5da7415c027e7@mail.gmail.com> Without Muslims we are rootless: KPs ARIF SHAFI WANI Sheikhpora (Budgam), Mar 6: Joy knew no bounds for Reetu Kumari, a 51-year old Kashmir Pandit, when a native Muslim potter knocked her door at the apartment in the newly constructed migrant colony here on the principal festival of the Pandits, Maha Shivratri, popularly known as Herath, celebrated across the state Thursday. Reetu says the potter from Chadoora has been providing her and other Pandit families earthen-ware for Shivratri for the past 40 years. Without naming him, she said the man had traveled a long distance to reach the colony. "We share a bond of love with him and other Muslims. Without them we are rootless," she said. The state government with the assistance of New Delhi established the colony as a "safe zone" for the Pandits who migrated to Jammu in early '90s. However, on experimental basis, instead of the migrants, Pandits who had stayed back have been settled in the heavily fortified colony. Out of 30 families, only 15 moved in on Tuesday. Despite security restrictions, the Muslims thronged the colony to greet the Pandits on the festival. Incidentally, when aged Fatima and other women of this tiny hamlet went to greet their Pandit brethren, they had to face a volley of questions before being ushered in by the gun-totting security guards deployed in the premises in strength. "We don't personally know them (Pandits) but they are part of our culture and so we feel it's our responsibility to greet them on Shivratri. That is why we were not bothered by the strict security restrictions in the colony," Fatima said as she crossed the security barrier. Emotional scenes were witnessed when the women felicitated the Pandits. Sitting in his new two bedroom apartment, Bansi Lal said "although we are contended with the new accommodation, we fear loosing ties with our Muslim brethren, if such security restrictions continue." In a choked voice, Lal added "for centuries past, the Muslims have shared our grief and sorrows." "It's because of their love and affection that we didn't migrate to Jammu. All our festivals rather culture is incomplete without them. They should enjoy free access to meet us," he demanded. Unidentified gunmen had killed Lal's brother-in-law and nephew in Sangrampora massacre in 1997. "We believe death is eternal. Why should we fear it. The government should see to it that the security restrictions should not make us vulnerable to some more trouble," Lal said. After the Sangrampora massacre, the Pandits said, the authorities asked them to shift to the migrant houses in Budgam. "Life was miserable. We had to share a room with many families. But as for Muslims they always offered us unflinching support and this helped us survive the tough times," said Vinod Pandita, who teaches at a government school in Budgam. However, when the authorities decided to rehabilitate them at a separate colony in Sheikhpora, the Pandits had a "tough choice". "Despite problems, we preferred to stay in Budgam. However, the migrant landlords pressurized us to vacate." "It was an emotional separation from the Muslims at Budgam but we had no choice," Pandita added. His counterpart Nannaji had apprehensions of settling in the new colony. "But our fears have vanished following warm response from the locals," he said as a group of residents hugged him saying 'Herath Mubarak'. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 11:31:58 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:31:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena In-Reply-To: <98f331e00803060825i7bcacdf0vf86f048115f57122@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00803060825i7bcacdf0vf86f048115f57122@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803062201g76fe4e15k3f2c118779f53322@mail.gmail.com> Dear Prakash , Not that I know anything better or worse about SS or MNS , but I wish to know why do you love to hate them ? I am a North Indian and I dont hate MNS , the reason being that as Indians , we have made our system weak enough for these issues to be exploited. Though it is unfortunate that MNS has targeted mostly people from Bihar, who have made Huge contribution towards this country and Mumbai in particular. What MNS or SS is doing or demanding has already been legalised for Jammu & Kashmir.What stops the rest of Indian of not raising an issue on that ? Why article 370. Why cant J&K belong to rest of Indians ,and if there is an exception for J&K ...then how do you term MNS & SS wrong in their actions ? Regards Pawan Durani On 3/6/08, prakash ray wrote: > > *Dear all, > * > > *The anti-people gangs like Shiv Sena and MNS are once again preaching > hatred against the north-Indians, particularly peole from Bihar and UP. > you > can read an essay on Shiv Sena published in The Marxist, Apr-June, 2000 ( > www.cpim.org), which give an insight to the rise of such politics in > Bombay. > Here is the link...* > > *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* > > > ** > > *Regards,* > > Prakash > ** > ** > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From elkamath at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 13:18:56 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 23:48:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Indian women: peace keeping and providing security to the President... in Liberia Message-ID: <580463.65210.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> FYI http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=hub010308good_morning.asp RYAN LOBO meets the extraordinary Indian women who keep peace and guard the President in war-torn Liberia I HAD GONE to Liberia to work on a self-funded documentary film and photo project about a certain war criminal. Midproject, while driving through Monrovia, the Liberian capital, I thought I heard someone yell something in Kannada. I turned around and saw several women standing by an armored truck and they all looked Indian. A friend, who I was working with on the project, said she was in the process of doing a radio story about the very same women and after a day’s work with the helpful bureaucracy at the United Nations (UN) headquarters, we landed up at the base of the Indian Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) contingent in Congo town, Monrovia. This 125 strong, spectacular UN contingent composed mostly of Indian women helps keep the peace in the West African nation of Liberia, devastated by one of Africa's most bloody civil wars. This war has left more than 2,00,000 people dead, thousands scarred by violence and rape, a shattered economy, 85 percent unemployment, drug addiction and crime on a spectacular scale. The Indian contingent consists of 125 officers of whom 105 are women from CRPF battalions all over India. The men cook, drive and maintain the vehicles. The women help maintain law and order and provide armed backup to the Liberian National Police. India has been a longtime contributor to UN missions all over the world and has sent women to conflict zones before, though not in such numbers. The contingent commander Seema Dhundia, says that the biggest challenge was proving their competence. Sitting in her spartan office with a large “Incredible India” print overhead, she said that, at first, the idea of an all-female contingent did not convince superiors at home or in the UN but, she continues, “Our girls are experienced and have served in insurgent areas all over India. When things finally got started here, people took them very seriously as the members of the contingent proved themselves competent.” The UN has called India’s decision to deploy female officers in policing “unprecedented”. The girls, as Dhundia calls them, now provide security to the Liberian President, Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf (Africa’s first elected head of office), patrol dangerous neighborhoods and guard critical government buildings. The unit used to be called the FFPU or the “Female Formed Police Unit”. It’s now just called the FPU or the “formed police unit”. “We are just as good if not better than most of the FPUs,” says Poonam, FPU member. One of the reasons why the Indian contingent was called to duty is that UN deployments themselves in the past have been accused of sexual exploitation of local women and children. The presence of the Indian female contingent is expected to sensitise the police force and encourage more Liberian women to join the force. According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, a government survey of ten of Liberia’s fifteen counties claim that 92 percent of the 1,600 women interviewed said they had experienced some form of sexual violence, including rape. Women’s groups in Liberia estimate that approximately 40 percent of all girls and women in Liberia have been sexually abused. DHUNDIA believes that the women’s maternal instinct can help them perform better in post conflict scenarios, especially where women and children are victims. She also believes that women can often gauge a situation much better than men when it comes to reading emotions and are more capable of defusing a situation non-aggressively. “I think the presence of women when it comes to riot control can actually have a calming effect,” Dhundia says. As members of the CRPF these women have served in Jammu and Kashmir and the North East. They have ended communal riots, repulsed cross border terrorists and insurgents and sustained casualties. Dhundia says the number of Liberian women applying for police jobs has increased dramatically after the arrival of the Indian contingent. 70 percent of the women are married with children. The women I spoke with said the hardest part of their deployment was being away from their families. “Our children are on our minds all the time,” says Dhundia. “Leaving one’s children to work in a far off war zone is not easy and I miss them terribly.” Valsala, a member of the contingent, disagrees. “We are very busy and can’t be thinking of other things. Our lives depend on it.” But she leaves and returns with photos of her children. “Maybe they will see themselves if you publish them and know I’m thinking of them,” she says. The women wake at 6 am, have roll call, drill and exercises at 7 am, then sit down to a vegetarian Indian breakfast. On to weapons maintenance. They don’t leave the premises except on duty. Seventy percent of the women are deployed at any point, day or night. Recently they shot dead an armed robber who had fired an AK47 at them. The unit has been lucky. It has not sustained any casualties though dozens of other military personnel have been killed in the past four years. Their free time is spent playing volleyball and resting before their patrols through Monrovia’s most dangerous neighbourhoods. The only other entertainment are three Indian TV channels. While I was present a small group was watching a soap opera. They left for patrols a few minutes before the climax, when on screen the police bursts through the door to arrest the beautiful, innocent heroine who silently takes the blame for a murder her husband commited. I felt comforted that India’s own diversity and serious problems have not split it as deeply as Liberian society. The women’s unit, efficient despite speaking different languages and being from different parts of India, seemed to represent our continuing cohesiveness. On February 1, the unit I met returned to India and was replaced by another women’s contingent. From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 8, Dated Mar 01, 2008 Print this story Feedback Add to favorites Email this story Click here ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From anoop.kamath at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 18:46:35 2008 From: anoop.kamath at gmail.com (Anoop Kamath) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:16:35 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] MOA's March 5, 2008 upload can be viewed on line now Message-ID: *Dear Friends,** * Greetings from www.mattersofart.com. Our *March 5, 2008 upload* can be viewed online now ! - *ECA Auction* – A Turning Point in the History of Indian Art! *Sarmistha Maiti* reports - *Infocus* – Ashok Sukumaran - *Special Interview *– Prof Sovon Som - Photofeatures – *Kala Ghoda 2008* and *Red Earth*'s Basant celebrations - Feature on *Anant Joshi*'s works displayed at *Art Rotterdam* - *Indrapramit Roy* writes a note about his works currently on display at Pundole Art Gallery - *Roobina Karode*'s essay on *Pooja Iranna*'s works - Art critic and curator* Gayatri Sinha*'s essay on *Vivek Vilasini*'s photography show - *Alexander Keefe* reviews exhibitions of *Chintan Upadhyay*, *Bharat Sikka* and *Mechanism of Motion *and more reviews** - News section features *Sudarshan Shetty*'s exhibition in Tilton Gallery, NY, *Subodh Gupta*'s show in Jack Shainman Dallery, *ACAW 2008*, *Ranjani Shettar*'s exhibition in ICA, and more… Log on to www.mattersofart.com for the latest news in Indian contemporary art Also visit http://mattersofart.blogspot.com :)ANOOP KAMATH 534, Sector 29. NOIDA 201301 (Uttar Pradesh) India Mob: 9811168775 Tel: 91-120-4210540, 4210539 -- :)ANOOP KAMATH 534, Sector 29. NOIDA 201301 (Uttar Pradesh) India Mob: 9811168775 Tel: 91-120-4210540, 4210539 From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 5 15:37:33 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:07:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Guha's weak defenders: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book: In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803050151y6025107y1926e0121192a731@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <247438.98897.qm@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan, It is me Arnab in support of Namrata--and what she is saying and Kak's review. The sentence got suddenly cut off and it looks like that. I apologise and now I want to get into the debate with everybody. Please come in Shuddha, Sadan, Mahmood and all yours in discourse arnab --- Pawan Durani wrote: > Are you Arnab or Namrata . Or do you have some other > identity . Kindly let > me know and then I may reply to your mail . > > God Bless You With an Identity. > > > On 3/5/08, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > Again you've started your illiterate > > gymnastics. Why don't you organize a conference of > > sound historians and check if Guha can be defended > in > > any form ( Kak is not needed therefore) in terms > of > > methods of history writing (and not satisfying > grant > > givers.)and the product that is history. But I can > > tell you sophisticated historians will use its > pages > > as toilet paper and will not respond. It is an. > NGO > > version of fundraising history--backed as if by > the > > Rajiv Gandhi foundation this time. Wicked > illiteracy > > sells and sells well. He is another Pupul Jayakar, > or > > MJ Akbar or Prabhu Chaola ( Rajya Sabha post next > > time).And tell me and all -- what books on methods > of > > history writing you've read and how you defend > him; > > that will settle the debate well. > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a > breath > > > of honest,fresh air. > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow > on > > > Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's > wrong > > > but > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI > list, > > > I > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai > list > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of > > > honest, > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself > raise > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate > > > enough > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy > could > > > not > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in > the > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating > crores > > > of > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts > Foundation. > > > Ram > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this > bull > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( > > > like > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if > he > > > too > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from > Ram > > > Guha. > > > > He may... > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No > download > > > required. Go to > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go > to > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From turbulence at turbulence.org Fri Mar 7 03:50:16 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:20:16 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked Music Review Commission: "Voices from the Paradise Network" by John Hudak Message-ID: <00b301c87fd8$5497ff10$fdc7fd30$@org> Networked Music Review Commission: "Voices from the Paradise Network" by John Hudak With Flash programming by erational.org http://turbulence.org/works/paradise "My mother-in-law passed away recently, reminding me of a technique that a parapsychologist named Dr. Konstantin Raudive (1906-1974) used to record what he purported to be voices of deceased spirits. With the amount of information moving around on the internet these days, and the passing of my mother-in-law, who I thought would want to get in touch (if possible), I thought I'd give Raudive's technique a try within the digital realm." - John Hudak "Voices from the Paradise Network" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., for Networked Music Review. It was made possible with the funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY John Hudak has been interested in sound and music from the age of four, when he began to play a variety of instruments. At the University of Delaware and the Naropa Institute for the Arts, he studied English, video, photography, creative writing and dance. John then began to create taped soundtracks for his solo performance-art/dance pieces, that later developed into audio, audio-video, and mixed-media pieces. Language has also been a predominant focus, and John has studied and published haiku poetry, the literary equivalent of the reductive, minimal, and nature-based sound forms that interest him. John's current work focuses on the rhythms and melodies that exist in our daily aural environments. These sounds usually remain hidden, as we tend to overlook their musical qualities; or, their musical qualities are obscured through mixture with other sounds. This work takes the form of audio CDs, web-based projects, mixed-media installations and performances. In simplified terms, what John is doing could be considered reframing and transforming sound in our environment so it can be noted, admired, and valued. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Fri Mar 7 10:42:40 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 10:42:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for Entries for Drain- A journal on psychogeography. Message-ID: <47D0CEC8.2000907@sarai.net> Call for Entries for /Drain/- A journal on psychogeography. In 1955, Guy Debord described psychogeography as "the study of the specific effects of the geographical environment, consciously organized or not, on the emotions and behavior of individuals." Debord's psychogeographical map The Naked City (1957) challenged traditional ideas of mapping relating to scale, location, and fixity, and drew on the work of urban social geographer Paul-Henri Chombart de Lauwe's concept of the city as a conglomeration of distinct quarters, each with its own special function, class divisions, and "physiognomy," which linked the idea of the urban plan to the body. An important strategy of the pyschogeographical was the dérive, "a technique of transient passage through varied ambiences". The 'psychogeographical' has had a pervasive if somewhat amorphous role in contemporary art and culture. As a creative, social and political tactic, wandering through psychogeographic spaces is pertinent to a diverse range of practices including the use of GPS systems, Internet art, photography as well as sound and performance art. This issue of Drain attempts to gather a series of essays, artworks and creative writings that reflect on the current state of psychogeography. How have contemporary artists, writers and thinkers interpreted, or been influenced by, the legacy of psychogeography? Abstract deadline: April 1, 2008 Submission deadline: June 1, 2008 Launch: August 1, 2008 Please send submissions to: celina at drainmag.com and avantika at drainmag.com Celina Managerial Board/Editor -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:48:37 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:48:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena Message-ID: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Please note the correction in the link regarding an essay on Shiv Sena by Com Ashok Dhawale published in The Marxist, vol-16, no-2, Apr-June 2000- *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* In earlier post a star mark is there which must be deleted in the address line. As far as Mr Durrani's quest is concerned, I sympathise with his understanding regarding the attack on migrant people in Bombay and the Kashmir issue. I would like to advise him to visit the page- *http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/apr/25yusufchat.htm* Regards, Prakash From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 17:27:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:27:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena In-Reply-To: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803070357x3f075006m76a725e76e87cb93@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for your sympathies . It is usually a answer by those who dont have a suitable arguments. On 3/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear all, > > Please note the correction in the link regarding an essay on Shiv Sena by > Com Ashok Dhawale published in The Marxist, vol-16, no-2, Apr-June 2000- > > *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* > > In earlier post a star mark is there which must be deleted in the address > line. > > As far as Mr Durrani's quest is concerned, I sympathise with his > understanding regarding the attack on migrant people in Bombay and the > Kashmir issue. I would like to advise him to visit the page- > > *http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/apr/25yusufchat.htm* > > > Regards, > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vikash.sen at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 18:21:58 2008 From: vikash.sen at gmail.com (Bikash Ballabh Singh) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 18:21:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farm loan waiver: The unanswered questions! Message-ID: <25c340bd0803070451v3db5d60djb9b015c946e3c22@mail.gmail.com> Sonia Gandhi wanted it; Chidambaram announced it; and Manmohan Singh has de-fended it. But no one seems to know how the Congress-led UPA government's farm loan waiver scheme is going to be put into practice. The scheme is iniquitous. by R. Venkatesan Iyengar via merinews. DISCERNING OBSERVERS of the Indian political scene may have sensed that a relief package for farmers was in the offing even before the Union Finance Minister (FM), P. Chidambaram, announced a waiver of Rs.60,000 crores worth of farm loans in the Union Budget 2008-09. News about the pre-budget deliberations between UPA, the Congress Chief Sonia Gandhi and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh made it amply clear that Sonia Gandhi was pitching for farm loan waiver, women welfare schemes and income tax sops for the middleclass in the budget – obviously with an eye on the general elections, which may be held towards the end of this year or next year. While the FM's loan waiver announcement has predictably been extolled as a "revolutionary step" by Sonia Gandhi and welcomed generally by farmers who stand to benefit from the loan waiver, it has raised several questions: how the Finance Minister is going to implement it? From the surprise evinced by some of Chidambaram's cabinet colleagues at the relief package and Chidambaram's inability to explain how he is going to deliver on his promise, it is clear that the Finance Ministry has not worked out the details of the loan waiver scheme – which is nothing but a classic case of acting in haste and regretting at leisure. In other words, the FM is not sure, at the moment, how the government is going to compensate the banks, both private and public, for the loss they will incur when the loans they have given are waived. This uncertainty naturally led to a 900-point fall in the BSE Sensex post-Budget, with the Bankex leading the slide with a 6.7 percent drop. It was attributed to fears that the loan waiver would lead to a further rise in bad debts and thus a fall in the profits of banks. In his budgetary address, Chidambaram said that "the country is discharging a deep debt and sense of gratitude to farmers" by offering the loan waiver package. The announced waiver is said to be for Rs.50,000 crore worth of loans owed by small and marginal farmers (i.e. farmers who own below two hectares of land) and a settlement scheme for other farmers that would amount to another Rs.10,000 crore. However, there is lack of clarity even here. For example, a farmer tilling two hectares of a well-irrigated land is in a much more comfortable position than the one who owns, say, 10 hectares of dry land. The question is: Should the package benefit a farmer who is reaping a rich harvest from his two-hectare land and thus is in a comfortable position to repay the bank loan or should it benefit a farmer in a region like Vidarbha, Maharashtra, who despite owning more than 10-hecaters of land, finds himself unable to make ends meet? In other words, what should be the criterion for measuring 'distress' – size of the landholding or degree of poverty and distress? A region-specific loan-waiver scheme that benefits the really needy could have been thought of. However, such selective implementation of the scheme would not get Congress the votes, which, after all, is what this scheme is apparently all about. Defending the loan waiver package, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said his government took the "historic initiative to waive farmers' loans on an unprecedented scale" because of the "unpaid distress bill" left behind by the erstwhile BJP-led NDA government. But the Prime Minister, obviously, cannot tell us why his government took nearly four years to foot the "unpaid distress bill". The Prime Minister further said that the relief package is "well-funded" but has no concrete details to offer. Though the Prime Minister said that "the banking system will not be constrained in any manner" and that "we should not grudge the farmers their due," the fact that he chose to drag the name of NDA into the picture shows that the whole thing is all about political opportunism. For, if the government had really been sincere about freeing the farmers from the debt trap, it would have asked the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) to work out a solution, in consultation with the public and private sector banks and refrained from interfering in the working of the banks. To cite an example, it was the Federal Reserve, the central bank of the US and not the US government, which bailed out the banks stuck in the sub prime crisis. But unfortunately, in India, political considerations and not economic ones, influence government's thinking. Source: http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=130801 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 18:27:16 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:57:16 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Request for source In-Reply-To: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D13BAC.2020207@gmail.com> Hello! I need material on trends in conflicts in India, as well as globally, over development issues and/or projects in recent years. My focus is on nationwide and global trends, and not on individual cases. I would really appreciate it if someone could point me to a few sources. Thanks in advance. Tapas From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 21:35:45 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 08:05:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Farm loan waiver: The unanswered questions! In-Reply-To: <25c340bd0803070451v3db5d60djb9b015c946e3c22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <952153.1904.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Actually 60,000 crore is not sufficient enough but the actual DEBTS are around 3,60,000 crore through out the India. So the waiver should be 3,60,000 Crore. In a country where there is a budget of 6 lakh crore, waiving a 3,60,000 crore will not be a big issue. Centre and states can bear 70:30 or 80:20 over a period of time lets say 20 years. Not only that some strategic plan should be required for crop harvesting and crop selling. A country which is purely based on agriculture, the understanding for that is pretty poor among the policy makers. Now a days there was a feeling that Agriculture is waste, but no body think where shall the country get paddy if Agriculture is side tracked. Not everybody can eat junk food. Policy makers should feel that this is also part and parcel of LIBERALIZATION and REFORMS. Only thing is vision and daring is required. Who ever execute it people should appreciate that step. Whatever reasons the 60,000 loan waiver is a little bit good and it is exceptional if they waive it in full scale. In Indian democracy past 60 years so much money exchanged in the name of scams etc and people pardoned every body involved into them. Bikash Ballabh Singh wrote: Sonia Gandhi wanted it; Chidambaram announced it; and Manmohan Singh has de-fended it. But no one seems to know how the Congress-led UPA government's farm loan waiver scheme is going to be put into practice. The scheme is iniquitous. by R. Venkatesan Iyengar via merinews. DISCERNING OBSERVERS of the Indian political scene may have sensed that a relief package for farmers was in the offing even before the Union Finance Minister (FM), P. Chidambaram, announced a waiver of Rs.60,000 crores worth of farm loans in the Union Budget 2008-09. News about the pre-budget deliberations between UPA, the Congress Chief Sonia Gandhi and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh made it amply clear that Sonia Gandhi was pitching for farm loan waiver, women welfare schemes and income tax sops for the middleclass in the budget – obviously with an eye on the general elections, which may be held towards the end of this year or next year. While the FM's loan waiver announcement has predictably been extolled as a "revolutionary step" by Sonia Gandhi and welcomed generally by farmers who stand to benefit from the loan waiver, it has raised several questions: how the Finance Minister is going to implement it? From the surprise evinced by some of Chidambaram's cabinet colleagues at the relief package and Chidambaram's inability to explain how he is going to deliver on his promise, it is clear that the Finance Ministry has not worked out the details of the loan waiver scheme – which is nothing but a classic case of acting in haste and regretting at leisure. In other words, the FM is not sure, at the moment, how the government is going to compensate the banks, both private and public, for the loss they will incur when the loans they have given are waived. This uncertainty naturally led to a 900-point fall in the BSE Sensex post-Budget, with the Bankex leading the slide with a 6.7 percent drop. It was attributed to fears that the loan waiver would lead to a further rise in bad debts and thus a fall in the profits of banks. In his budgetary address, Chidambaram said that "the country is discharging a deep debt and sense of gratitude to farmers" by offering the loan waiver package. The announced waiver is said to be for Rs.50,000 crore worth of loans owed by small and marginal farmers (i.e. farmers who own below two hectares of land) and a settlement scheme for other farmers that would amount to another Rs.10,000 crore. However, there is lack of clarity even here. For example, a farmer tilling two hectares of a well-irrigated land is in a much more comfortable position than the one who owns, say, 10 hectares of dry land. The question is: Should the package benefit a farmer who is reaping a rich harvest from his two-hectare land and thus is in a comfortable position to repay the bank loan or should it benefit a farmer in a region like Vidarbha, Maharashtra, who despite owning more than 10-hecaters of land, finds himself unable to make ends meet? In other words, what should be the criterion for measuring 'distress' – size of the landholding or degree of poverty and distress? A region-specific loan-waiver scheme that benefits the really needy could have been thought of. However, such selective implementation of the scheme would not get Congress the votes, which, after all, is what this scheme is apparently all about. Defending the loan waiver package, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said his government took the "historic initiative to waive farmers' loans on an unprecedented scale" because of the "unpaid distress bill" left behind by the erstwhile BJP-led NDA government. But the Prime Minister, obviously, cannot tell us why his government took nearly four years to foot the "unpaid distress bill". The Prime Minister further said that the relief package is "well-funded" but has no concrete details to offer. Though the Prime Minister said that "the banking system will not be constrained in any manner" and that "we should not grudge the farmers their due," the fact that he chose to drag the name of NDA into the picture shows that the whole thing is all about political opportunism. For, if the government had really been sincere about freeing the farmers from the debt trap, it would have asked the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) to work out a solution, in consultation with the public and private sector banks and refrained from interfering in the working of the banks. To cite an example, it was the Federal Reserve, the central bank of the US and not the US government, which bailed out the banks stuck in the sub prime crisis. But unfortunately, in India, political considerations and not economic ones, influence government's thinking. Source: http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=130801 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From vikash.sen at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:26:22 2008 From: vikash.sen at gmail.com (Bikash Ballabh Singh) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 13:26:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A tribute to the Indian women Message-ID: <25c340bd0803072356w3f4dfbf1i8f75106c52a442f0@mail.gmail.com> There is a heroic tale behind every ordinary woman who continues to do extraordinary things every day, as she toils selflessly for her family, community and country. On the Woman's Day, here's a tribute to the sacrificing Indian women. by Pooja Maniar via merinews WE, AS a nation of a billion plus people, have a habit of making heroes out of people. Whenever the cricket team goes out and does well, we give it a royal welcome back home. If a women's cricket team were to win the World Cup and come, not even the media would be at the airport to welcome it! The Indian women have often been subjected to biased measures. You may call it inequality of a kind. But despite all odds, they have emerged victorious in all their endeavours. On the Women's Day, let us pay a tribute to the Indian women. No, we are not talking about any heroes or icons here - just the ordinary Indian women who, despite being ordinary, are heroes within their own rights; the women who are a part of our society; the women who are amongst all of us. Even in the 21st century, women are not given the respect that they deserve. But you don't need to look far to see a hero or a larger than life figure. A woman is much closer to you. She is a part of your family. She is your mother, sister, daughter or wife. The Indian woman is synonymous with sacrifice. She had her dreams and aspirations, but had to give them up for the betterment of her family. She wakes up the earliest every morning, for if she is not on time, none of her family members will be able to accomplish any work on time. If there was ever a doubt in anyone's mind as to which gender is dependent on the other, you just need to go through your daily schedule. Your morning tea would not taste as sweet if it weren't for your mother or wife preparing it. You would not get your matching tie or shoes, if it weren't for her providing it. The little things that come so easily in life would not have been that easy if it weren't for a woman doing those. On one side, she is part of the army and the police force and tackles down crime. On the other, she has to fight with the local vendor everyday for that extra buck. Your savings account would not have looked that rosy, if the woman in your house had not been saving money everyday. As a part of the ever-changing society, even the Indian woman has had to change. For nothing is permanent in life but change. The Indian woman of today is open-minded and has a modern outlook but will still stick to her roots and cultures. She may go to office everyday but never at the expense of her duties to the family. She may tour the world over but will never let go of her Indianness. She is confident, talented yet dignified. There are international days dedicated to chocolates, roses or even potatoes. But, do we really need a day for the women, so that we forget her for the rest of the 364 days in the year? The sacrifices made by our mothers and sisters have often been taken for granted and as a society, we refuse to acknowledge that fact! Both men and women have an equal role to play in the society. But, often the efforts of the women are neglected. We do not need to find women heroes in the country. There is a hero amongst all of us. It is just that we do not acknowledge her importance. Here's a salute to the woman of our country, who selflessly continues to toil for her family, her community and her country. We do not need a Woman's Day to celebrate the achievements of the Indian women, for every single day of the year belongs to the women. It may be a man's world, but let's not forget that it is the women who make the men. Soruce: http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=130831 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:39:03 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 13:39:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803070357x3f075006m76a725e76e87cb93@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803070357x3f075006m76a725e76e87cb93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803080009w6add4721ud48ca9d0520b8855@mail.gmail.com> The role of the Congress in the Maharashtra Violence is well known. It answers all the questions.... On 3/7/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Thank you for your sympathies . It is usually a answer by those who dont > have a suitable arguments. > > On 3/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > Please note the correction in the link regarding an essay on Shiv Sena > by > > Com Ashok Dhawale published in The Marxist, vol-16, no-2, Apr-June 2000- > > > > *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* > > > > In earlier post a star mark is there which must be deleted in the > address > > line. > > > > As far as Mr Durrani's quest is concerned, I sympathise with his > > understanding regarding the attack on migrant people in Bombay and the > > Kashmir issue. I would like to advise him to visit the page- > > > > *http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/apr/25yusufchat.htm* > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dash.suryashankar at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:54:20 2008 From: dash.suryashankar at gmail.com (SURYA) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:54:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Join the Niyamgiri Puja on 16th March In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All are hereby invited to a puja being organised by Dongria and other Kond pujaris on the sides of the threatened mountain, Niyam Dongar, on the 16th of this month - a puja to focus saving the mountain. It is known from reliable sources that the supreme court is on the verge of giving clearance to mine bauxite on this mountain's richly forested summit, after a case lasting over three years, on which the London-based company Vedanta/Sterlite has paid unprecedented sums to get clearance. It wants the bauxite for the refinery below the mountain, which has already polluted the Bamsadhara river, within weeks of starting up. While the company chief, Anil Agarwal, is being billed as one of the world's great philanthropists, the "mafia raj" and gross levels of pollution of air, water, sound and earth evident around Lanjigarh prove otherwise. The case has been characterised by a number of gross illegalities and contraventions of the Constitutional safeguards supposed to protect India's Adivasis and India's natural environment. This raises serious questions about the impartiality of the judiciary. Currently Sterlite's mining application is with the CEC (Central Empowerd Committee), whose composition has just been changed (firing two members and bringing in 4 new men), evidently with regard to the Niyamgiri case. Since nine of Orissa's other biggest mountains, which have bauxite cappings like Niyamgiri, have been grouped together with Niyamgiri in this case, and all are the subject of numerous applications from mining companies, a lot is at stake here. It is significant that several of Andhra's mountains (just south of Orissa) have recently been cleared for mining (by Jindal, Nalco and a Saudi company), while Vedanta/Balco's present mines in Chhattisgarh have not received renewed clearance, putting more pressure on their Niyamgiri application. The Dongria are determined to resist any attempt to mine Niyam Dongar, whose summit is sacred to their main deity, Niyam Raja - "King of Law" - most appropriate considering the likely imminent betrayal of essential safeguards at the supreme court. Rahul Gandhi (Sonia's son and heir to the Nehru dynasty) was scheduled to meet the Dongria today. He is known to be a keen conservationist, and was due to fly to Lanjigarh by helicopter. It is reported that this visit was cancelled at the last minute "for security reasons", with police saying "the forest there is full of Naxalites", which is definitely not true. Last time the supreme court seemed about to give clearance it was reported that armed police were due to be sent to the Niyamgiri area. So everyone willing and able is invited to the puja on the 16th, and media persons are requested to attend, since Vedanta-sponsored journalists have already started spreading a highly distorted version of Lanjigarh's "development." -- "The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." -Che Guevera -- "The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." -Che Guevera From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 22:07:14 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:37:14 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] One Nation Under Google Message-ID: CKUT presents: One Nation Under Google: Citizenship in the Technological Republic A public talk by Professor Darin Barney Canada Research Chair in Technology & Citizenship, McGill University. Friday, March 14, 2008 Arts W-215, 853 Sherbrooke Street West, McGill University 18h30, free Does more technology equal more freedom? While the nuts and bolts of technological progress - computers, cellphones, internet access wired and wireless - become accessible to more and more people, the promise of increased civic engagement enabled by these gadgets seems to have eluded our wired society. There's a lot more to technology, and to democracy, than wires and buttons, and it has a much deeper affect on our lives than simply being tools we can use well or badly. In Dr. Barney's words, "technology is, at once, irretrievably political and consistently depoliticizing. It is at the centre of this contradiction that the prospects for citizenship in the midst of technology lie." Presenting a range of examples from YouTube to the hidden networks of food production and government bureaucracy, Barney contests the common notion that technology necessarily leads to enhanced freedom and improved civic engagement. One Nation Under Google examines the challenge of citizenship in a technological society, and asks whether the demands of technology are taking over the practice of democracy. Presented in collaboration with CKUT 90.3FM About Professor Darin Barney Darin Barney is a professor of Communication Studies at McGill Universitywhere he holds a Canada Research Chair in Technology and Citizenship. Working at the crossroads of social sciences and the humanities, Barney's interdisciplinary research focuses on the relationship between technology and citizenship.He is the author of The Network Society (Polity Press 2004), Communication Technology: The Canadian Democratic Audit (UBC Press 2005), and Prometheus Wired: The Hope for Democracy in the Age of Network Technology (UBC/University of Chicago Press/University of New South Wales Press 2000). About CKUT CKUT 90.3FM is Montreal's english-language campus/community radio station based at McGill University. For twenty years CKUT has provided students and members of the greater Montreal community with alternative news, music and arts programming, and the opportunity to participate in democratic grassroots media. Dr. Barney's talk kicks off CKUT's spring training days on March 15 and 16. -30- Darin Barney can be reached for interviews at (514) 398-5683 or at darin.barney at mcgill.ca For more information cont From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Mar 8 02:13:26 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:43:26 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Upgrade! Boston: Caleb Larsen Message-ID: <00a901c88093$f79b5840$e6d208c0$@org> Upgrade! Boston: Caleb Larsen http://turbulence.org/upgrade March 20, 2008; 7 - 9 pm Massachusetts College of Art and Design North 181 (Entrance on Evans Way) 621 Huntington Avenue, Boston Caleb Larsen is an artist working digitally and physically through prints, sculpture, software, and installation. He has a BFA in painting and is currently an MFA student in the Digital Media program at the Rhode Island School of Design. His work explores the interval that exists between digital life and physical life and the social paradigmatic shifts experienced culturally as a result of the collective consciousness of the internet. Upgrade! Boston is curated by Jo-Anne Green for Turbulence.org in partnership with the Studio for Interrelated Media at Massachusetts College of Art and Design. It is one of 27 nodes currently active in Upgrade! International, an emerging network of autonomous nodes united by art, technology, and a commitment to bridging cultural divides. If you would like to present your work or get involved, please email jo at turbulence dot org. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From soic2008 at mail-socioinfocyber.org Fri Mar 7 21:39:06 2008 From: soic2008 at mail-socioinfocyber.org (SOIC 2008) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 12:09:06 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Last Call for Papers/Abstracts Message-ID: <9E956144-F62B-4A80-BDE5-47FCCCFE8987@mail-socioinfocyber.org> Announcement ------------------------------------------------------- Last Call for Papers/Abstracts and Invited Sessions Proposals for SOIC 2008, (Orlando, Florida, USA. June 29th- July 2nd, 2008) http:// www.socioinfocyber.org/soic2008 Deadlines: Papers/Abstracts Submissions and Invited Sessions Proposal: April 3rd, 2008 Authors Notification: April 25th, 2008 Camera-ready, full papers: May 22nd, 2008 ------------------------------------------------------- All Submitted papers will be reviewed by a double-blind (at least three reviewers), non-blind, and participative peer review. These three kinds of review will support the selection process of those that will be accepted for their presentation at the conference, as well as those to be selected for their publication in JSCI Journal. Authors of accepted papers who registered in the conference can have access to the evaluations and possible feedback provided by the reviewers who recommended the acceptance of their papers/abstracts, so they can accordingly improve the final version of their papers. Non-registered authors may not have access to the reviews of their respective submissions. The registration fee of effective invited session organizers will be waived and they will receive at the registration desk, for free, 1) a package of 4 DVDs and one CD containing the 6-hour tutorial "Fundamentals and History of Cybernetics: Development of the Theory of Complex Adaptive Systems" and 2) a second 4-DVDs/1-CD package 6- hours tutorial titled "Cybernetic Management". The market price of each of these packages is US $ 295. Twelve more benefits for invited session organizers are listed at SOIC 2008 web page. For submissions or Invited Sessions Proposals, please go to the web site: http://www.socioinfocyber.org/soic2008/organizer.asp Authors of the best 10%-20% of the papers presented at the conference will be invited to adapt their papers for their publication in the Journal of Systemics, Cybernetics and Informatics. Each session to be included in the conference program will have corresponding electronic pre-conference and post-conference sessions for 15 days each. In the electronic pre-conference sessions authors will have access to the papers to be presented at their session and to an associated electronic forum, so they can be better prepared for their conference face-to-face session. Similarly, electronic post- conference sessions will complement and support a follow-up of the respective conference sessions, via an electronic forum and the possibility of evaluating papers presented at the associated session. These evaluations will also support the selection process for the papers to be published in JSCI journal. Best regards, SOIC 2008 Secretariat If you wish to be removed from this mailing list, please send an email to soic.remove at mail-socioinfocyber.org with REMOVE MLSOIC in the subject line Address: Torre Profesional La California, Av. Francisco de Miranda, Caracas, Venezuela. _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 17:51:16 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 17:51:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear friends there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Partha , > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called :Jashn - > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known lobyist > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on Kashmir > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate with > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance about > History. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > Pawan > > are > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > being > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > anyone disagrees > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > > one part > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > debate. > > If you feel > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > please respond to > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................................. > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > false. Sanjay > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > Partha. > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > intellectual > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of view, > > and > > > if > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ................. > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a discussion > > on > > > > some > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > this > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of honest,fresh > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > Search.< > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 19:42:43 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 19:42:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena In-Reply-To: <6353c690803080009w6add4721ud48ca9d0520b8855@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00803070318x598cc8b1x96a83bfd4da0da2d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803070357x3f075006m76a725e76e87cb93@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803080009w6add4721ud48ca9d0520b8855@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70803080612x6311b953mb81b33e3b5df8319@mail.gmail.com> dear all please click the following....but please note that it has almost nothing to do with the ongoing discussion(s)... but one needs to laugh at times... so this tonic for good heart and creative mind with love inder salim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDR7ZUVD88&feature=related On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > The role of the Congress in the Maharashtra Violence is well known. It > answers all the questions.... > > > > On 3/7/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Thank you for your sympathies . It is usually a answer by those who dont > > have a suitable arguments. > > > > On 3/7/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > Please note the correction in the link regarding an essay on Shiv Sena > > by > > > Com Ashok Dhawale published in The Marxist, vol-16, no-2, Apr-June 2000- > > > > > > *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* > > > > > > In earlier post a star mark is there which must be deleted in the > > address > > > line. > > > > > > As far as Mr Durrani's quest is concerned, I sympathise with his > > > understanding regarding the attack on migrant people in Bombay and the > > > Kashmir issue. I would like to advise him to visit the page- > > > > > > *http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/apr/25yusufchat.htm* > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Prakash > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 20:34:23 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 20:34:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803080704p4978c0bcn4d6f73a7940a65d5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Asit... Pawan Durani atleast didn't write a biased review or a biased film which was exposed later by common Kashmiri's. So, I suggest you keep Sanjay Kak's bold image away from Reader's List. He is still to answer a lot of questions from common people. Your bold hero Sanjay Kak did a screening of his film something Aazadi at my Ramjas College in New Delhi with some of his close friends helping him out there. The college was left without any notice; and it was ensured till the last minute that I don't come to know about it. I wish Kak and his friends some fearless freedom from us. Though as always not many were interested in his crap movie. With Warm Regards, Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > dear friends > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Partha , > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > :Jashn - > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > lobyist > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > Kashmir > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > with > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > about > > History. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > > Pawan > > > are > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > > being > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > > anyone disagrees > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > > > one part > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > > debate. > > > If you feel > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > please respond to > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .................................. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > false. Sanjay > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > > Partha. > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > intellectual > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > view, > > > and > > > > if > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > discussion > > > on > > > > > some > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > > this > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > honest,fresh > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919811047132 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > Search.< > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 20:53:15 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 20:53:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6353c690803080704p4978c0bcn4d6f73a7940a65d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803080704p4978c0bcn4d6f73a7940a65d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: what is a crap movie is ramand sagars calender art justifying irrationalism obscurantism ,fusing mythology with history a great movie On 3/8/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Dear Asit... > > Pawan Durani atleast didn't write a biased review or a biased film which was > exposed later by common Kashmiri's. So, I suggest you keep Sanjay Kak's bold > image away from Reader's List. He is still to answer a lot of questions from > common people. > > Your bold hero Sanjay Kak did a screening of his film something Aazadi at my > Ramjas College in New Delhi with some of his close friends helping him out > there. The college was left without any notice; and it was ensured till the > last minute that I don't come to know about it. I wish Kak and his friends > some fearless freedom from us. Though as always not many were interested in > his crap movie. > > With Warm Regards, > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > dear friends > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > :Jashn - > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > lobyist > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > Kashmir > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > with > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > about > > > History. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > > > Pawan > > > > are > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > > > being > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > > > > one part > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > > > debate. > > > > If you feel > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > please respond to > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > > > Partha. > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > intellectual > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > view, > > > > and > > > > > if > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > discussion > > > > on > > > > > > some > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > > > this > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > honest,fresh > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919811047132 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:12:44 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 21:12:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an essay on Shiv Sena In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803062201g76fe4e15k3f2c118779f53322@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00803060825i7bcacdf0vf86f048115f57122@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803062201g76fe4e15k3f2c118779f53322@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: aricle 370 has a specific history of bargain if one has to be honest about kashmir one has to be honest about history how was the deal on aritcle 370 struck was kasmir was a part of india ever what was kashmirs status prior to july 1947 On 3/7/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Prakash , > > Not that I know anything better or worse about SS or MNS , but I wish to > know why do you love to hate them ? > > I am a North Indian and I dont hate MNS , the reason being that as Indians , > we have made our system weak enough for these issues to be exploited. Though > it is unfortunate that MNS has targeted mostly people from Bihar, who have > made Huge contribution towards this country and Mumbai in particular. > > What MNS or SS is doing or demanding has already been legalised for Jammu & > Kashmir.What stops the rest of Indian of not raising an issue on that ? Why > article 370. Why cant J&K belong to rest of Indians ,and if there is an > exception for J&K ...then how do you term MNS & SS wrong in their actions ? > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > > On 3/6/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > *Dear all, > > * > > > > *The anti-people gangs like Shiv Sena and MNS are once again preaching > > hatred against the north-Indians, particularly peole from Bihar and UP. > > you > > can read an essay on Shiv Sena published in The Marxist, Apr-June, 2000 ( > > www.cpim.org), which give an insight to the rise of such politics in > > Bombay. > > Here is the link...* > > > > *http://pkray.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html* > > > > > > ** > > > > *Regards,* > > > > Prakash > > ** > > ** > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 00:23:27 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 00:23:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803080704p4978c0bcn4d6f73a7940a65d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803081053p16185726q456f50bb65cafd0c@mail.gmail.com> Now, I wouldn't let you change the topic so easy. Not all encounters are fake; remember that. A major role has been played by Hurriyat, JKLF etc to e xaggerate about many killings; so that there is no harm to their bread and butter. With media and humar rights groups always glued to Kashmir; this is an opportunity to exploit to their best. Would by this statement you made; you justify Killings of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits ? Would you justify destruction of 600 odd temples (if not more) of the valley ? Do you support those mindless terrorists who led the terrorism in the Kashmir vally in 1990; which let to the exodus of half a million souls ? Your bold beauty Sanjay Kak; remains blind and deaf to these blunt truths; which unfortunately have been suffered by his own community. Not that I still believe that he is a Kashmiri Pandit. Kak has been silent on his own communities sufferings; but it pains him more when we speak about his hero Yasin Malik. Now, even a blind would guess the reality behind Kak. Many months back I had written a very small piece about Kak and his master sahab. Just a few days after I posted it on my blog; my blog was hacked. I don't want to accuse anybody.. let everyone judge by their ownselves. Let each individuals conscience speak,,, The URL to that piece on my blog is - http://kauladityaraj.blogspot.com/2007/08/sanjay-kak-and-his-dreams-of-aazadi.html God Bless ! Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > what is a crap movie is ramand sagars calender art justifying > irrationalism obscurantism ,fusing mythology with history a great > movie > > On 3/8/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Dear Asit... > > > > Pawan Durani atleast didn't write a biased review or a biased film which > was > > exposed later by common Kashmiri's. So, I suggest you keep Sanjay Kak's > bold > > image away from Reader's List. He is still to answer a lot of questions > from > > common people. > > > > Your bold hero Sanjay Kak did a screening of his film something Aazadi > at my > > Ramjas College in New Delhi with some of his close friends helping him > out > > there. The college was left without any notice; and it was ensured till > the > > last minute that I don't come to know about it. I wish Kak and his > friends > > some fearless freedom from us. Though as always not many were interested > in > > his crap movie. > > > > With Warm Regards, > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > > :Jashn - > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > > lobyist > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the > largest > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > > Kashmir > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > > with > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > > about > > > > History. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya > nor > > > > > Pawan > > > > > are > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking > about > > > > > being > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film > maker. If > > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > depicted > > > > > one part > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the > current > > > > > debate. > > > > > If you feel > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > > please respond to > > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce > false > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that > matter, > > > > > > Partha. > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > > view, > > > > > and > > > > > > if > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > > discussion > > > > > on > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, > Who is > > > > > this > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > > honest,fresh > > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai > streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! > > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 11:30:28 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:30:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6353c690803081053p16185726q456f50bb65cafd0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803080704p4978c0bcn4d6f73a7940a65d5@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803081053p16185726q456f50bb65cafd0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: no killings can be justified but there is supposed to be a rule of law in any civilised country extrajudicial killings are illegal and barbaric one wrong cannot justufy the other kashmir is complex both india and pakistan are equally guilty and it is equally dangerous to communalise kashmir issue into hindu muslims and pandits kashmir belongs to all the kasmiris so in a democratic spirit have the govts of india and pakistan have ever bothered to find out what are the democratic aspirations of ordinary kashmiris thay have greedily divided kashmiris into east and west without consulting the kashmiris in democracy people are supreme so if india and pakistan are honest and true to thier democratic pretension let them hold a referndum in kashmir and respect the will of kashmiri people asit On 3/9/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Now, I wouldn't let you change the topic so easy. Not all encounters are > fake; remember that. A major role has been played by Hurriyat, JKLF etc to e > xaggerate about many killings; so that there is no harm to their bread and > butter. With media and humar rights groups always glued to Kashmir; this is > an opportunity to exploit to their best. > > Would by this statement you made; you justify Killings of thousands of > Kashmiri Pandits ? > > Would you justify destruction of 600 odd temples (if not more) of the valley > ? > > Do you support those mindless terrorists who led the terrorism in the > Kashmir vally in 1990; which let to the exodus of half a million souls ? > > Your bold beauty Sanjay Kak; remains blind and deaf to these blunt truths; > which unfortunately have been suffered by his own community. Not that I > still believe that he is a Kashmiri Pandit. Kak has been silent on his own > communities sufferings; but it pains him more when we speak about his hero > Yasin Malik. > > Now, even a blind would guess the reality behind Kak. > > Many months back I had written a very small piece about Kak and his master > sahab. Just a few days after I posted it on my blog; my blog was hacked. I > don't want to accuse anybody.. let everyone judge by their ownselves. Let > each individuals conscience speak,,, > > The URL to that piece on my blog is - > http://kauladityaraj.blogspot.com/2007/08/sanjay-kak-and-his-dreams-of-aazadi.html > > God Bless ! > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > what is a crap movie is ramand sagars calender art justifying > > irrationalism obscurantism ,fusing mythology with history a great > > movie > > > > On 3/8/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Asit... > > > > > > Pawan Durani atleast didn't write a biased review or a biased film which > > was > > > exposed later by common Kashmiri's. So, I suggest you keep Sanjay Kak's > > bold > > > image away from Reader's List. He is still to answer a lot of questions > > from > > > common people. > > > > > > Your bold hero Sanjay Kak did a screening of his film something Aazadi > > at my > > > Ramjas College in New Delhi with some of his close friends helping him > > out > > > there. The college was left without any notice; and it was ensured till > > the > > > last minute that I don't come to know about it. I wish Kak and his > > friends > > > some fearless freedom from us. Though as always not many were interested > > in > > > his crap movie. > > > > > > With Warm Regards, > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > > > dear friends > > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > > > :Jashn - > > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > > > lobyist > > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the > > largest > > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > > > Kashmir > > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > > > with > > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > > > about > > > > > History. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya > > nor > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > are > > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking > > about > > > > > > being > > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film > > maker. If > > > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > > depicted > > > > > > one part > > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the > > current > > > > > > debate. > > > > > > If you feel > > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > > > please respond to > > > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce > > false > > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that > > matter, > > > > > > > Partha. > > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > > > view, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > > > discussion > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, > > Who is > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > > > honest,fresh > > > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai > > streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! > > > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe > > > > > in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 12:10:47 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:10:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is brilliant the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 its important from which position you are speaking from the side of oppressed or the opressor in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas irresponsible nuetrality asit On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review of > India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > ------------------------------------------ > > A Chronicle for India Shining > > by Sanjay Kak > * > Biblio* July-August 2007 > > Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the more > reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book India after > Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from it's > title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's Largest > Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end papers, > which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to have > been preparation for the writing of this book. > > So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India (after > Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, but for > now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny Walker > kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of the > Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of things to > come. > > There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian arrives > at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is that > all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this republic > is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and 'victory', > turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or place in > human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly diverse, so > vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, or > addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". > > I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the way > from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, Nagaland, > Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a very long > list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian nation has > been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has not even > appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success story > of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, but > Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the main, > narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. From > Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative prediction > ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has had > elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. > > No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for which he > reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since 1951 is > celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer are a > "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a > festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are offered > in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with forty-three > different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and sealing > wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were needed…". > > To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied with > the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, and > indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any > serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with parliamentary > democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also means > that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here focused on > those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental questions > raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites in the > 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, or > indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose his way, > and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, and > Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over retrospective > readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of what is > known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for this is > the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by training > and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted > themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this ascribed lack > of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' > sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly unchallenged > – canvas. > > This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some > primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar papers) the > bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two > generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at the > back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. With > the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, Tanika > Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst others), > why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this book > alone bravely sets out to fill? > > Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his dexterous > use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns have been > rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too he > locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to the > darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group of > leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the positive > functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction > between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance from a > practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front rebels > appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of Lungleh > by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the Indian > State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite businessman, > JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of the > Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that > "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple games, > sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt that this > qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to encounter, he > has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant > rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of what is > described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living away > from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer from UP > who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's museums, > its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true for this > exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the processes > of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey from > village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did that > worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills began to > shut down in the 1980s?) > > And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 miles > the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the great > canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own terms, > we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen of > contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for both > the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years on) or > for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green Revolution'.) At > such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling through the > brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and > selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less convincing. > Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue or event > that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and > biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of some > future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the Indian > Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in 2007? > > Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered with > insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of Delhi. > Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such narratives > can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless we can > contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and understand the > nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply left with > arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur Shastri, > second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the > Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri has the > stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > > Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his distaste > of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in his > treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK Patil, a > former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha and > direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the dismissal > of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both > unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of the > "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass movement > "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, Indira > Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have been > better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin the > blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for > imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between Indira > Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and > artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to 1987. > Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from 'history' > to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the thirty-year > rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs a > generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can place those > events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and > clamour of the present". > The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at once too > strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section from > 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history actually > inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some things: > the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati and > the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the International > Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the horizon of > this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, and then > his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries become > tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of > significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections called > 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through Caste, > the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the conflicts in > Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also > demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there was > also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's movement > in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights (or > perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of it > about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the > Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who we are > told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to demand > justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader herself > engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of her > flock". > > This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, engaged in > articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, and in > case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to either > Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even make it > to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the 21st > century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds of > people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front ranks > of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's opinions > of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a curious > fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own unseemly > fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few exceptions, > even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the first > edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, from > Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, this > disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, and this > is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our times. > Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed > journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and > Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao > Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their movement > possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the > struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which the > resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are your > 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the India > Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going to go > beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to 1987? > Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand the > phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, The > History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – will > continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to day > history of the little in this country. > > In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of one > grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. Impatient with > the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to it's > end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's peculiar > obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru was of > course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has "written > a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the same > insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar Lohia, > Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, Mayawati, > or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has > "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram scrapes > through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to High > School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in the > New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: "K > Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a thick-set > man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny Liston and > the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description of > former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my reading > of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the > dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the crucial last > two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even the > minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws together > what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of > competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the > exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to make the > astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour its > commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" Neither > needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges in > independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at the > Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a single, > stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. Both > proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a whole". Guha > is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the innocence > of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the "single, > stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? After all, > the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, is it > not? > At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of land > by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of 2006, "a > group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to open > fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway and held > up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking whom, and > how? > > Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand Singh > Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was a > harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists taking up > the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > Militants, always "Terrorists". > The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline the > inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra Guha's > History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter – leave > alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early 1990s > in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of occupation, > popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled easily > with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their actions". Once > again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which scholars > the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the slipshod > words of television anchors. > > And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in the > aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state on > India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves wished to > merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, with its > fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of a > Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the Islamic > State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – speaking as > a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists there > will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely ahistoric > assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged by > historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that only in > three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" does > the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and only > here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then does > this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy people are > substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm bells? > When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it really > reaches fifty-fifty? > > From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that the > author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to have > coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest > Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the grand > purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled margins: > first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others who are > somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in the > celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important marker. It > demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be taken > seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is fast > forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost mathematically > calibrated cowardice. > > What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of the > 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy hosannas to > India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our 'shining' > democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set India > up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, China 0). > So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and oppression are > made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, Ramachandra Guha > emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to CEOs and > investors at the next Davos. > > (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent film > Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom in > Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 12:12:26 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:12:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Asit , Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan Durani?" for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) is to Kashmir and Kashmir issue. Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The only time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for his happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . And that served what he wanted . For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay kak admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member of this Forum. Regards Pawan Durani On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > dear friends > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Partha , > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > :Jashn - > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > lobyist > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > Kashmir > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > with > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > about > > History. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > > Pawan > > > are > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > > being > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > > anyone disagrees > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > > > one part > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > > debate. > > > If you feel > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > please respond to > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .................................. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > false. Sanjay > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > > Partha. > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > intellectual > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > view, > > > and > > > > if > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > discussion > > > on > > > > > some > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > > this > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > honest,fresh > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > Search.< > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 12:25:22 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:25:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803082255i55c3d14bm51220ab6ee1ef50d@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, These people don't have answers to our questions; they only know to argue and identify problems with each and every thing without identifying the right solution. I very well remember on the very first screening of Kak's film where his master sahab Yasin Malik was the chief guest; how his father had supported our protest; not only he but many others present. Kak obviously was embarassed for a few minutes. Kak won't speak in this forum. I know atleast of that. He is busy on a mission to spread hatred; be it in Jamia, DU or Gorakhpur. Kak's insecure nature is very well evident; as he always speaks about nothing to with Pandits in all his screenings. And, everywhere he is taken to task. Not just by Pandits; but even others including Muslims. May God give Kak and his blind supporters some sense. On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Asit , > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan Durani?" > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) is > to > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The only > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for his > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . > > And that served what he wanted . > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay kak > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member of > this Forum. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > dear friends > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > :Jashn - > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > lobyist > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > Kashmir > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > with > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > about > > > History. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > > > Pawan > > > > are > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > > > being > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. > If > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > depicted > > > > one part > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > > > debate. > > > > If you feel > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > please respond to > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that > matter, > > > > > Partha. > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > intellectual > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > view, > > > > and > > > > > if > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > discussion > > > > on > > > > > > some > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who > is > > > > this > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > honest,fresh > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai > streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 12:27:35 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:27:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6353c690803082255i55c3d14bm51220ab6ee1ef50d@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803082255i55c3d14bm51220ab6ee1ef50d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803082257x2e688c0en9b2c0a8190080d11@mail.gmail.com> I attach here a news article written by one Mir Tariq about Kak's recent screening in Jamia where he was taken to task for his biased views by common scholars. Kak again spoke lie to the media...here read it... Jashn-e-Azadi generates debate in New Delhi *Mir Tariq* New Delhi, Feb 22: The screening of Sanjay Kak's 2 hours and 19 minutes documentary film Jashn-e-Azadi (how we celebrate freedom) generated a heated debate among the scholars in Jamia Millia Islamia (JMI) University here on Saturday. Despite the censorship setback in many states, the film was screened by the AWAM-a group of a religious and a political scholar in Delhi on 22 Feb 2008, in the seminar hall of History Department JMI, where hundreds of students and scholars participated and discussed the film with its director Sanjay Kak Jashn-e-Azadi is an unsettlingly subdued documentary about the daily struggle of Kashmiris. The film is at its most effective when juxtaposing scenes of the Kashmiri people enjoying their coveted land of paradise with footage of Indian troops maliciously assaulting the homes of innocent, leaving entire villages in ashes. The most effective scene in the film is the figures of the first-ever" survey of conflict related deaths in Kashmir. The survey reveals that at least 100,000 Kashmiri youth have died in past 18 years of turmoil while 10,000 are missing and presumed dead. The troopers admit that 5000 of their men too have died in the conflict. Apart from two Kashmiri scholars who were on the side of Kak, almost all the other scholars present there criticized Kak for making Jashn-e-Azadi and accused him of being a fan of separatist leaders' like Sayed Ali Shah Geelani and Yasin Malik "The film lacks research. The Kashmir Pandits have not been covered in the film who have faced lot of hardships during the turmoil" said Janvi, a History Scholar from JMI. Another scholar from the same department said, "The film is biased as the director has covered only the atrocities and killings by Indian Army and has not exposed the killings carried out by militants" Meanwhile a Kashmiri scholar Saleem Jahangir advocated the empiricism of Jashn-e-Azadi and made sound arguments to drive home his point about the Kashmir issue. The other students who were unaware about the ground realities of Kashmir argued with Jehangir. At last he said, "Come what may be the background of the issue, the bottom line is that the common man is suffering irrespective of class, creed and caste," Saleem Jahangir added. While speaking to the audiences Sanjay Kak said "I am not the fan of any Kashmiri separatist leader, they are doing their work in the same as army is doing its duty in Kashmir." *"During the film making I approached the various Pandit families but due to lack of authenticity I was not able to present their real picture."* * *While answering the question on the problems Kashmiri Pandits, Kak said "The migration of Kashmiri Pandits is a among the main issues of the Kashmir conflict, but it needs to be studied and scholars should come to make research in this field." Sanjay Kak, a Kashmiri Pandit, is an independent documentary film-maker whose film Words on Water (2003) on the anti-dam movement in the Narmada Valley in Central India has been widely screened in India and abroad, including at film festivals in Durban, Hong Kong, Locarno and Turin. On 3/9/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Pawan, > > These people don't have answers to our questions; they only know to argue > and identify problems with each and every thing without identifying the > right solution. > > I very well remember on the very first screening of Kak's film where his > master sahab Yasin Malik was the chief guest; how his father had supported > our protest; not only he but many others present. Kak obviously was > embarassed for a few minutes. > > Kak won't speak in this forum. I know atleast of that. He is busy on a > mission to spread hatred; be it in Jamia, DU or Gorakhpur. > > Kak's insecure nature is very well evident; as he always speaks about > nothing to with Pandits in all his screenings. And, everywhere he is taken > to task. Not just by Pandits; but even others including Muslims. > > May God give Kak and his blind supporters some sense. > > > On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Asit , > > > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan > > Durani?" > > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) > > is to > > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. > > > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The only > > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for his > > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . > > > > And that served what he wanted . > > > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay kak > > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. > > > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member of > > this Forum. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > > :Jashn - > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > > lobyist > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the > > largest > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > > Kashmir > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > > with > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > > about > > > > History. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya > > nor > > > > > Pawan > > > > > are > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking > > about > > > > > being > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film > > maker. If > > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > > depicted > > > > > one part > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the > > current > > > > > debate. > > > > > If you feel > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > > please respond to > > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce > > false > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that > > matter, > > > > > > Partha. > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > > view, > > > > > and > > > > > > if > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > > discussion > > > > > on > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, > > Who is > > > > > this > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > > honest,fresh > > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai > > streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! > > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 13:16:46 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:16:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: this has come to ownership and copyright about kashmir i would like to be enightened who has the copyright to speak on kaskmir asit On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Asit , > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan Durani?" > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) is to > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The only > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for his > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . > > And that served what he wanted . > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay kak > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member of > this Forum. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > dear friends > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > :Jashn - > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > lobyist > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > Kashmir > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > with > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > about > > > History. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > > > Pawan > > > > are > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > > > being > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > > > > one part > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > > > debate. > > > > If you feel > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > please respond to > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > > > Partha. > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > intellectual > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > view, > > > > and > > > > > if > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > discussion > > > > on > > > > > > some > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > > > this > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > honest,fresh > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 13:18:53 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:18:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: using terms like kashmiri pandit kasmiri is very sectarian as if the kashmiri pandits are different species than others this also justifies castiesm communalism feudalism hierarchy and fuedalism asit On 3/9/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > this has come to ownership and copyright about kashmir i would like to > be enightened who has the copyright to speak on kaskmir > asit > > On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Asit , > > > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan Durani?" > > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) is to > > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. > > > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The only > > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for his > > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . > > > > And that served what he wanted . > > > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay kak > > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. > > > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member of > > this Forum. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > :Jashn - > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > lobyist > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the largest > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > Kashmir > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > with > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > about > > > > History. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya nor > > > > > Pawan > > > > > are > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking about > > > > > being > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film maker. If > > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely depicted > > > > > one part > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the current > > > > > debate. > > > > > If you feel > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > > please respond to > > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce false > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that matter, > > > > > > Partha. > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > view, > > > > > and > > > > > > if > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > discussion > > > > > on > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, Who is > > > > > this > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > honest,fresh > > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 13:46:57 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:46:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803090016k7c6884u397a6922dfa0764c@mail.gmail.com> Surely Asit. But, atleast Sanjay Kak is no authority on Kashmir in any manner. He failed like anything even if he tried to portray the aspiration for so called freedom. Even to a common individual this film was nothing more than mere propoganda. Kak's silence only adds to this. I don't find it that important to comment on your other allegations/accusations. Kashmir Pandits are known for their intellect and have been the pioneers in each and every field of education. Not only was the first prime minister of India a Pandit; but many other respectable positions are to its crdeit; among others the first ornithologist of Asia. Now, everyone knows of who used to and still supports casteism, communalism etc. in Kashmir. Its the baby of your Kak like persons and his masters. The original inhabitants of the valley atleast do have some right to speak on their land. Hope this time your are enlightened. Orzuv (Blessings) On 3/9/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > this has come to ownership and copyright about kashmir i would like to > be enightened who has the copyright to speak on kaskmir > asit > > On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Asit , > > > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan > Durani?" > > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) > is to > > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. > > > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The only > > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for his > > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . > > > > And that served what he wanted . > > > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay kak > > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. > > > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member of > > this Forum. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name calling > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are nobel > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie called > > :Jashn - > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well known > > lobyist > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the > largest > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge on > > Kashmir > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual debate > > with > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded ignorance > > about > > > > History. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya > nor > > > > > Pawan > > > > > are > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking > about > > > > > being > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film > maker. If > > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > depicted > > > > > one part > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the > current > > > > > debate. > > > > > If you feel > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is on, > > > > > please respond to > > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce > false > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that > matter, > > > > > > Partha. > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point of > > view, > > > > > and > > > > > > if > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > discussion > > > > > on > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, > Who is > > > > > this > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > honest,fresh > > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai > streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go to > > > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! > > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 14:56:01 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:56:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Aurangazeb and Islamic compassion-I Message-ID: <6353c690803090126q449e3577kfb5b2431a61bd197@mail.gmail.com> Aurangazeb and Islamic compassion-I *FACT* (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) had organized an Exhibition of Paintings under the theme '*AURANGAZEB'* as he was' according to Mughal Records' in Chennai from 3 to 9 March, 2008. Read much more indepth detail at http://factusa.blogspot.com/2008/03/aurangazeb-and-islamic-compassion-i.html Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From parthaekka at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 18:19:38 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:19:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6353c690803090016k7c6884u397a6922dfa0764c@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com> <585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803090016k7c6884u397a6922dfa0764c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803090549g1fd67479p3b4e22b0237358e5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Aditya, Am resorting to a 'cut and paste' of an earlier mail on this same list (that was conveniently ignored) as it seems that a blind hatred that Pawan and you share for Sanjay Kak stops you from using your reasoning. 1. As I mentioned earlier, all of us on this list are unknown to each other. I atleast only know one person who told me about this list. 2. The list is a place where we debate, discuss and inform, and 'who' the person is becomes irrelevant. 3. As far as Sanjay Kak's film is concerned, you're welcome to mail him a list of questions. However, since he's not on the list, why post it here - unless you want to debate the 'realities' he's raised. 4. In any case, this specific debate has nothing to do with that issue. If you disagree with what's been said in this debate, then mention the parts you disagree with and why. All of us have pockets of knowledge, and I'd be glad to know your point of view on this topic, but I haven't seen it. All there's been is a personal attack against Sanjay Kak without any reference to the issue raised. Rgds, Partha ..................................... On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Surely Asit. But, atleast Sanjay Kak is no authority on Kashmir in any > manner. He failed like anything even if he tried to portray the aspiration > for so called freedom. Even to a common individual this film was nothing > more than mere propoganda. Kak's silence only adds to this. > > I don't find it that important to comment on your other > allegations/accusations. Kashmir Pandits are known for their intellect and > have been the pioneers in each and every field of education. Not only was > the first prime minister of India a Pandit; but many other respectable > positions are to its crdeit; among others the first ornithologist of Asia. > Now, everyone knows of who used to and still supports casteism, > communalism > etc. in Kashmir. Its the baby of your Kak like persons and his masters. > > The original inhabitants of the valley atleast do have some right to speak > on their land. Hope this time your are enlightened. > > Orzuv (Blessings) > > > > On 3/9/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > this has come to ownership and copyright about kashmir i would like to > > be enightened who has the copyright to speak on kaskmir > > asit > > > > On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Asit , > > > > > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan > > Durani?" > > > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A Beard ) > > is to > > > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. > > > > > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The > only > > > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for > his > > > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . > > > > > > And that served what he wanted . > > > > > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay > kak > > > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. > > > > > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member > of > > > this Forum. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > > > dear friends > > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name > calling > > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are > nobel > > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and > > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani > > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold > > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir > > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha , > > > > > > > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" > > > > > > > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie > called > > > :Jashn - > > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well > known > > > lobyist > > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the > > largest > > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > > > > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge > on > > > Kashmir > > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual > debate > > > with > > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. > > > > > > > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded > ignorance > > > about > > > > > History. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhatri, > > > > > > > > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor Aditya > > nor > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > are > > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking > > about > > > > > > being > > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. > > > > > > > > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film > > maker. If > > > > > > anyone disagrees > > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely > > depicted > > > > > > one part > > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. > > > > > > > > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the > > current > > > > > > debate. > > > > > > If you feel > > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is > on, > > > > > > please respond to > > > > > > specific portions with your own references. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > .................................. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce > > false > > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are > > > > > > false. Sanjay > > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and > > > > > > Aditya,..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aditya, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that > > matter, > > > > > > > Partha. > > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the > > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point > of > > > view, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > ................. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a > > > discussion > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, > > Who is > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of > > > honest,fresh > > > > > > > air. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai > > streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but > > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I > > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list > > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye > > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, > > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise > > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough > > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not > > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the > > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of > > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram > > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull > > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like > > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too > > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. > > > > > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! > > > > > > Search.< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > > > > in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Sun Mar 9 20:46:40 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:16:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] The debate was....dear Mahmood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <430425.47488.qm@web8512.mail.in.yahoo.com> Mahmoodji ( my priyo interloper), The debate was whether the first review could be comparatively defended against Kak's review in terms of historiography ( and public historian etc etc,)and because I've essential regard for the persons I named in my letter below, I thought to pursue that with all of us participating to arrive at a better view; the debate it seems, still goes on but without some rigorous intervention from you all ( for instance I may ask you is an attempted popular history a public history? I posted a few lines on that. Yet your freedom not to do so is a matter which stands already sanctioned ( and thus the poverty rendered to the conversation)--also given your absentee instance of the previous debate on archive which had had your words as edifice; now don't tell me --where was the debate..then and what was that, my dear interloper ? love arnab --- mahmood farooqui wrote: > Where is the debate? Which debate? > > On 05/03/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > It is me Arnab in support of > Namrata--and > > what she is saying and Kak's review. The sentence > got > > suddenly cut off and it looks like that. I > apologise > > and now I want to get into the debate with > everybody. > > Please come in Shuddha, Sadan, Mahmood and all > > > > yours in discourse > > arnab > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Are you Arnab or Namrata . Or do you have some > other > > > identity . Kindly let > > > me know and then I may reply to your mail . > > > > > > God Bless You With an Identity. > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Again you've started your > illiterate > > > > gymnastics. Why don't you organize a > conference of > > > > sound historians and check if Guha can be > defended > > > in > > > > any form ( Kak is not needed therefore) in > terms > > > of > > > > methods of history writing (and not > satisfying > > > grant > > > > givers.)and the product that is history. But > I can > > > > tell you sophisticated historians will use > its > > > pages > > > > as toilet paper and will not respond. It is > an. > > > NGO > > > > version of fundraising history--backed as if > by > > > the > > > > Rajiv Gandhi foundation this time. Wicked > > > illiteracy > > > > sells and sells well. He is another Pupul > Jayakar, > > > or > > > > MJ Akbar or Prabhu Chaola ( Rajya Sabha post > next > > > > time).And tell me and all -- what books on > methods > > > of > > > > history writing you've read and how you > defend > > > him; > > > > that will settle the debate well. > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a > > > breath > > > > > of honest,fresh air. > > > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw > snow > > > on > > > > > Mumbai streets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's > > > wrong > > > > > but > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the > SARAI > > > list, > > > > > I > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at > Sarai > > > list > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind > eye > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a > breath of > > > > > honest, > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. > himself > > > raise > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit > literate > > > > > enough > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but > Sanajy > > > could > > > > > not > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new > promoter in > > > the > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and > manipulating > > > crores > > > > > of > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts > > > Foundation. > > > > > Ram > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles > now. > > > > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing > this > > > bull > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public > historian ( > > > > > like > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One > wonders if > > > he > > > > > too > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship > from > > > Ram > > > > > Guha. > > > > > > He may... > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. > > > > > > Namrata > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No > > > download > > > > > required. Go to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media > > > and > > > > > the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media > > > and > > > > > the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > > the > > > > > subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your > thing. Go > > > to > > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go > to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 21:34:49 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:04:49 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book References: DEFANGED[84]:<32144e990803050247s5b77149em3d3089bd5580d63a@mail.gmail.com><585697.81525.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><32144e990803052346o37adb0c4t2ea9226ff571806d@mail.gmail.com><6b79f1a70803060046t161d5414l6bf8705f745d2df@mail.gmail.com><6b79f1a70803082242i35a88ff2k39d3c196718b42d@mail.gmail.com><6353c690803090016k7c6884u397a6922dfa0764c@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803090549g1fd67479p3b4e22b0237358e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003e01c881ff$500c3500$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Well, I remember having written to the list stating my opinion of the film, when this controversy first erupted here. Viewed from a experienced film critic's eye, the film is a bad case of cinematography. Politically, it is biased without a trace of subtlety. Having said that, I see no reason for banning the movie or any discussion about it from either side of the divide. The discussion is useful as long as it does not malign an individual merely for not making a film presenting your viewpoint, and as long as the discussion does not become uncivil or repetitive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Partha Dasgupta" To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > Hi Aditya, > > Am resorting to a 'cut and paste' of an earlier mail on this same list > (that > was conveniently ignored) as it seems that a blind hatred that Pawan and > you > share for Sanjay Kak stops you from using your reasoning. > > 1. As I mentioned earlier, all of us on this list are unknown to each > other. > I atleast only know one person who told me about this list. > > 2. The list is a place where we debate, discuss and inform, and 'who' > the > person is becomes irrelevant. > > 3. As far as Sanjay Kak's film is concerned, you're welcome to mail him a > list of questions. However, since he's not on the list, why post it > here > - > unless you want to debate the 'realities' he's raised. > > 4. In any case, this specific debate has nothing to do with that issue. > If > you > disagree with what's been said in this debate, then mention the parts > you > disagree with and why. All of us have pockets of knowledge, and I'd be > glad to know your point of view on this topic, but I haven't seen it. > All there's > been is a personal attack against Sanjay Kak without any reference to > the > issue raised. > > Rgds, Partha > ..................................... > > On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > >> Surely Asit. But, atleast Sanjay Kak is no authority on Kashmir in any >> manner. He failed like anything even if he tried to portray the >> aspiration >> for so called freedom. Even to a common individual this film was nothing >> more than mere propoganda. Kak's silence only adds to this. >> >> I don't find it that important to comment on your other >> allegations/accusations. Kashmir Pandits are known for their intellect >> and >> have been the pioneers in each and every field of education. Not only was >> the first prime minister of India a Pandit; but many other respectable >> positions are to its crdeit; among others the first ornithologist of >> Asia. >> Now, everyone knows of who used to and still supports casteism, >> communalism >> etc. in Kashmir. Its the baby of your Kak like persons and his masters. >> >> The original inhabitants of the valley atleast do have some right to >> speak >> on their land. Hope this time your are enlightened. >> >> Orzuv (Blessings) >> >> >> >> On 3/9/08, Asit asitreds wrote: >> > >> > this has come to ownership and copyright about kashmir i would like to >> > be enightened who has the copyright to speak on kaskmir >> > asit >> > >> > On 3/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > > Dear Asit , >> > > >> > > Youn would be perfectly right if you would question "Who is Pawan >> > Durani?" >> > > for I may be as unknown to you as Sanjay Kak ( Monalisa With A >> > > Beard ) >> > is to >> > > Kashmir and Kashmir issue. >> > > >> > > Ask the bearded Monalisa did he have answers to the arguments ? The >> only >> > > time he fely happy has been Gorakhpur festival where the reason for >> his >> > > happiness was that no one asked him about Pandits . >> > > >> > > And that served what he wanted . >> > > >> > > For us , the Kashmiri Pandits, he has been a traitor and let Sanjay >> kak >> > > admit in this Form , that even his parents are not happy with him. >> > > >> > > Partha : I forgot to tell you that the bearded Monalisa is the member >> of >> > > this Forum. >> > > >> > > Regards >> > > >> > > Pawan Durani >> > > >> > > >> > > On 3/8/08, Asit asitreds wrote: >> > > > >> > > > dear friends >> > > > there has to be some grace and decency in public debates name >> calling >> > > > is juvenile and obscene as if all the redears list debaters are >> nobel >> > > > prize winners stooping down to the personal under the belt and >> > > > disgraceful attack on sanjay kak i ask who is pawan durani >> > > > any one conscious on social issues knows that sanjay kak is a bold >> > > > film maker who exposed indian states genocide in kashmir >> > > > asitOn 3/6/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > > > > Dear Partha , >> > > > > >> > > > > Let me just ask "Who is Sanjay Kak ?" >> > > > > >> > > > > Being honest months before the release of some fiction movie >> called >> > > :Jashn - >> > > > > Kashmir " or something like that , i had a querry from a well >> known >> > > lobyist >> > > > > enquirying about Mr Kak. I pleaded my ignorance. >> > > > > >> > > > > And I still dont want to know him , for he has tried to do the >> > largest >> > > > > damage to a victimised community called Kashmiri Hindus. >> > > > > >> > > > > Having said that , i still would like to challenge his knowledge >> on >> > > Kashmir >> > > > > , and would like to have a public , academic and intellectual >> debate >> > > with >> > > > > him. He may bring in his guests like Yasin Malik to support him. >> > > > > >> > > > > Last time he met Rashneek at Green Park , he just pleaded >> ignorance >> > > about >> > > > > History. >> > > > > >> > > > > Regards >> > > > > >> > > > > Pawan Durani >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On 3/6/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Dhatri, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > a) As far as Kashmir is concerned, neither Sanjay Kak nor >> > > > > > Aditya >> > nor >> > > > > > Pawan >> > > > > > are >> > > > > > loving there. That's precisely why Aditya & Pawan are talking >> > about >> > > > > > being >> > > > > > dispossesed and the pain of not living there. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > b) Sanjay Kak depicted his point of view as an artist / film >> > maker. If >> > > > > > anyone disagrees >> > > > > > they are welcome to make their viewpoint heard. He has merely >> > depicted >> > > > > > one part >> > > > > > or view of a status as he sees it. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > c) Neither of the above points have anything to do with the >> > current >> > > > > > debate. >> > > > > > If you feel >> > > > > > that there is a lack of veracity in the current debate that is >> on, >> > > > > > please respond to >> > > > > > specific portions with your own references. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Rgds, Partha >> > > > > > .................................. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, we wi >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > The logic is pretty simple and reachable. Sanjay kak produce >> > false >> > > > > > > facts these people including Sanjay kak knew that they are >> > > > > > false. Sanjay >> > > > > > > kak is not a living being of Jammu and Kashmir like Pawan and >> > > > > > Aditya,..... >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > *Partha Dasgupta * wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Aditya, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > That's a bit like asking who's Pawan or Aditya or, for that >> > matter, >> > > > > > > Partha. >> > > > > > > None of us on this list know each other yet we still have the >> > > > > > intellectual >> > > > > > > honesty to look clearly at a point of view and debate it. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Who Sanjay Kak is does not matter. What matters is his point >> of >> > > view, >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > you disagree with it, why? >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Rgds, Partha >> > > > > > > ................. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Good One Pawan. :-) >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Why is an "Intellectual Forum" namely Sarai geting into a >> > > discussion >> > > > > > on >> > > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > review written by just another person ? Pawan asks rightly, >> > Who is >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak ? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Regards >> > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Joke of the day : Kak's review comes like a breath of >> > > honest,fresh >> > > > > > > air. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak and being Honest ........I saw snow on Mumbai >> > streets >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Namrata Kakkar wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear everybody, >> > > > > > > > > > Having read Sanjay Sub's wrong but >> > > > > > > > > > back patting, ridiculous review on the SARAI list, I >> > > > > > > > > > was just wondering how could readers at Sarai list >> > > > > > > > > > tolerate such nonsensical bribery, blind eye >> > > > > > > > > > stupidity. Kak's review comes like a breath of honest, >> > > > > > > > > > fresh air. But couldn't Sanjay Sub. himself raise >> > > > > > > > > > these questions? Infact anybody a bit literate enough >> > > > > > > > > > would tear this book into shreds; but Sanajy could not >> > > > > > > > > > do so since Ram Guha is now a new promoter in the >> > > > > > > > > > Indian circles--mustering and manipulating crores of >> > > > > > > > > > rupees through his (i.e, Indian) Arts Foundation. Ram >> > > > > > > > > > guha is a man with book length muscles now. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > So even if he continues writing this bull >> > > > > > > > > > shit, he will be a Sanjay's public historian ( like >> > > > > > > > > > men love public woman ( sorry). One wonders if he too >> > > > > > > > > > is aspiring a 50,000 rupees felllowship from Ram Guha. >> > > > > > > > > > He may... >> > > > > > > > > > But anyway, thank you SARAI. >> > > > > > > > > > Namrata >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. Go >> to >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php >> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> > city. >> > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > with >> > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > List archive: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > with >> > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > List archive: >> > > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > List archive: >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta >> > > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > List archive: >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ >> > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with >> > Yahoo! >> > > > > > Search.< >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Partha Dasgupta >> > > > > > IN +91 9811047132 Call >> > > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > List archive: >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe >> > > > > in the subject header. >> > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > List archive: >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 21:50:31 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:20:31 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of students' revolt in France. In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a clean chit by the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely oppressed by certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked for not adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri culture. The al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for not covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by non-state agents. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Asit asitreds" To: "Wali Arifi" Cc: "reader-list" Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is brilliant > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 > its important from which position you are speaking from the side of > oppressed or the opressor > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > irresponsible nuetrality > asit > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review of >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 >> >> ------------------------------------------ >> >> A Chronicle for India Shining >> >> by Sanjay Kak >> * >> Biblio* July-August 2007 >> >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the more >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book India >> after >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from it's >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's >> Largest >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end >> papers, >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to >> have >> been preparation for the writing of this book. >> >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India >> (after >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, but >> for >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny >> Walker >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of the >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of things >> to >> come. >> >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian >> arrives >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is that >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this >> republic >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and 'victory', >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or place >> in >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly diverse, so >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, or >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". >> >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the way >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, Nagaland, >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a very >> long >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian nation >> has >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has not >> even >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. >> >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success >> story >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, but >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the >> main, >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. From >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative prediction >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has had >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. >> >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for which >> he >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since 1951 is >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer are >> a >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are >> offered >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with forty-three >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and >> sealing >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were >> needed…". >> >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied >> with >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, and >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with parliamentary >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also >> means >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here focused >> on >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental questions >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites in >> the >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, or >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose his >> way, >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. >> >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, and >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over >> retrospective >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of what >> is >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for this is >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by training >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this ascribed >> lack >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly >> unchallenged >> – canvas. >> >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar papers) >> the >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at the >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. With >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, >> Tanika >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst >> others), >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this book >> alone bravely sets out to fill? >> >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his >> dexterous >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns have >> been >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too he >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to the >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group of >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the positive >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance from >> a >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front rebels >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of >> Lungleh >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the >> Indian >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite >> businessman, >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of the >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. >> >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple games, >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt that >> this >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to encounter, >> he >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? >> >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of what >> is >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living away >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer from >> UP >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's >> museums, >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true for >> this >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the >> processes >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey >> from >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did >> that >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills began to >> shut down in the 1980s?) >> >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 >> miles >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the great >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own terms, >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen of >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for both >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years on) >> or >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green Revolution'.) >> At >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling through >> the >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. >> >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less >> convincing. >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue or >> event >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of some >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the Indian >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in 2007? >> >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered >> with >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of >> Delhi. >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such narratives >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless we >> can >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and understand >> the >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply left >> with >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur >> Shastri, >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri has >> the >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" >> >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his >> distaste >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in his >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK Patil, a >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha and >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the >> dismissal >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of the >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass movement >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, >> Indira >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have >> been >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin the >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between Indira >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! >> >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to >> 1987. >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from >> 'history' >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the >> thirty-year >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs a >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can place >> those >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and >> clamour of the present". >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at once >> too >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section from >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history actually >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some >> things: >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati and >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the >> International >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the horizon >> of >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? >> >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, and >> then >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries become >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections called >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through Caste, >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the conflicts >> in >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there was >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's >> movement >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights (or >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of it >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who we >> are >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to demand >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader >> herself >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of her >> flock". >> >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, engaged >> in >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, and >> in >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to either >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even make >> it >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the >> 21st >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds of >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front >> ranks >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. >> >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's >> opinions >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a >> curious >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own >> unseemly >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few exceptions, >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the first >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, from >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, this >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, and >> this >> is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our >> times. >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their >> movement >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which the >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) >> >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are your >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the India >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going to go >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to >> 1987? >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand the >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, The >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – will >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to day >> history of the little in this country. >> >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of one >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. Impatient >> with >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to it's >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's peculiar >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru was >> of >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has >> "written >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the same >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar Lohia, >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, >> Mayawati, >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram scrapes >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to High >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in the >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: "K >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a thick-set >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny Liston >> and >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description of >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. >> >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my >> reading >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the crucial >> last >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even the >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws together >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to make >> the >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour its >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" Neither >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. >> >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges in >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at the >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a single, >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. >> Both >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a whole". >> Guha >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the >> innocence >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the "single, >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? After >> all, >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, is >> it >> not? >> At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of >> land >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of 2006, "a >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to >> open >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway and >> held >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking whom, >> and >> how? >> >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand >> Singh >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was a >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists taking up >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never >> Militants, always "Terrorists". >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline the >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra >> Guha's >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter – >> leave >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early >> 1990s >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of occupation, >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled easily >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their actions". >> Once >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which >> scholars >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the slipshod >> words of television anchors. >> >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in the >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state on >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves wished >> to >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, with >> its >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of a >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the >> Islamic >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – speaking >> as >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists >> there >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely ahistoric >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged by >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? >> >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that only >> in >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" does >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and >> only >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then does >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy people >> are >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm bells? >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it really >> reaches fifty-fifty? >> >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that the >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to have >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the >> grand >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled >> margins: >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others who >> are >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in the >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important marker. It >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be >> taken >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is fast >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost mathematically >> calibrated cowardice. >> >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of the >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy hosannas >> to >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our 'shining' >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set >> India >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, China >> 0). >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and oppression >> are >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, Ramachandra >> Guha >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to CEOs >> and >> investors at the next Davos. >> >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent film >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom in >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From razdan.aditya at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 00:28:19 2008 From: razdan.aditya at gmail.com (Aditya Razdan) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 00:28:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] RFID for security and privacy? In-Reply-To: <3273B2C0-C1C9-475B-9BB1-B26BF3DDDB98@sarai.net> References: <5DD124D4-DB83-41CC-9E67-E5F8A01E27F3@sarai.net> <6353c690803060501u35190309qa7a22f20d24f1a1e@mail.gmail.com> <3273B2C0-C1C9-475B-9BB1-B26BF3DDDB98@sarai.net> Message-ID: <71c993ef0803081058k1ded4c65t67430359fd98f141@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jeebesh, Please feel free to contact me on the below numbers. I am in delhi tommmorow then leave on a 2 week tour on monday. Let me know when we can talk . Thanks. Aditya Razdan Regional Sales Manager- South Asia ASSA ABLOY Identification Technologies Group Resource Center EA-75, 1st Floor, Inderpuri, Opp. PUSA Agriculture Research Institute, New Delhi, Delhi,India-110012 Mobile No: +91-9971211144,+91-9350067958 Telefax No: +91-11-25831390 E mail: arazdan at aaitg.com Website: www.aitg.com On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > dear Razdan, > > Aditya Kaul referred you as someone who can explain the RFID > technologies relation to citizen's empowerment. Enclosed below is a > news report that claims "citizens the tools and choices they nee to > ensure privacy and security"?. Was wondering how an electronic > tagging system make citizens secure. Will be nice if you could help > us understand this. > > Thanks in advance. > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > On 06-Mar-08, at 6:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > One of friends Aditya Razdan is an expert in RFID Technology in entire > > South-Asia.He works as the Regional Sales Manager- South > > Asia > +Manager-+South+Asia%22> > > of > > AssA Abloy ITG > +Abloy+ITG%22>. > > Their website is http://www.aaitg.com > > > > He can be also reached at razdan.aditya at gmail.com > > > > Thanks > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > >> > >> dear all, > >> > >> here is a news item. can anybody in the list please explain how RFID > >> technologies will enhance "citizens the tools and choices they need > >> to ensure privacy and security"? > >> > >> warmly > >> > >> jeebesh > >> > >> http://www.igovernment.in/site/ec-launches-consultation-on-rfid- > >> usage- > >> issues/ > >> > >> > >> EC launches consultation on RFID usage issues > >> Prithwi > >> March 6, 2008 | RFID & Smart Card and e-Gov. | > >> > >> Brussels: The European Commission (EC) launched a public consultation > >> on the Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology issues > >> relating to privacy, data protection and information security. > >> > >> The Commission has requested inputs relating to scope of RFID, its > >> use in the retail sector and role in information security, and need > >> for awareness-raising activities, reports ePractice. > >> > >> Predicting that the RFID market will grow rapidly over the next 10 > >> years, the Commission said that RFID technology is expected to create > >> many new opportunities for European business. > >> > >> It further said the public sector would see a lot of RFID technology > >> usage including e-Government, national defence and security, apart > >> from usage in consumer field including personal safety, sports and > >> leisure, smart homes and smart cities. > >> > >> The public consultation has been launched to support preparation of > >> the Commission's forthcoming 'Recommendation on RFID', due to be > >> adopted later in 2008. > >> > >> The key challenge for the recommendation will be to devise a common > >> vision and set goals of how it can keep Europe innovative and > >> competitive in the world economy, giving citizens the tools and > >> choices they need to ensure privacy and security. > >> —iGovernment Bureau > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- Aditya Razdan Regional Sales Manager- South Asia ASSA ABLOY Identification Technologies Group Resource Center EA-75, 1st Floor, Inderpuri, Opp. PUSA Agriculture Research Institute, New Delhi, Delhi,India-110012 Mobile No: +91-9971211144,+91-9350067958 Telefax No: +91-11-25831390 E mail: arazdan at aaitg.com Website: www.aitg.com From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 10:07:15 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:07:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal capacities how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason is simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is it so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last query who has the copy right to speak about kashmir asit On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of students' > revolt in France. > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a clean chit by > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely oppressed by > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked for not > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri culture. The > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for not > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by non-state > agents. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Asit asitreds" > To: "Wali Arifi" > Cc: "reader-list" > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is brilliant > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 > > its important from which position you are speaking from the side of > > oppressed or the opressor > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > irresponsible nuetrality > > asit > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review of > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > >> > >> ------------------------------------------ > >> > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > >> > >> by Sanjay Kak > >> * > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > >> > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the more > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book India > >> after > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from it's > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's > >> Largest > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > >> papers, > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to > >> have > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > >> > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India > >> (after > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, but > >> for > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny > >> Walker > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of the > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of things > >> to > >> come. > >> > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian > >> arrives > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is that > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > >> republic > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and 'victory', > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or place > >> in > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly diverse, so > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, or > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". > >> > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the way > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, Nagaland, > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a very > >> long > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian nation > >> has > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has not > >> even > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > >> > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success > >> story > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, but > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the > >> main, > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. From > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative prediction > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has had > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. > >> > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for which > >> he > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since 1951 is > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer are > >> a > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are > >> offered > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with forty-three > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > >> sealing > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were > >> needed…". > >> > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied > >> with > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, and > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with parliamentary > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also > >> means > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here focused > >> on > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental questions > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites in > >> the > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, or > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose his > >> way, > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > >> > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, and > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > >> retrospective > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of what > >> is > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for this is > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by training > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this ascribed > >> lack > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > >> unchallenged > >> – canvas. > >> > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar papers) > >> the > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at the > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. With > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, > >> Tanika > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst > >> others), > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this book > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > >> > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > >> dexterous > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns have > >> been > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too he > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to the > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group of > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the positive > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance from > >> a > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front rebels > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of > >> Lungleh > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the > >> Indian > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > >> businessman, > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of the > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > >> > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple games, > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt that > >> this > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to encounter, > >> he > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > >> > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of what > >> is > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living away > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer from > >> UP > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's > >> museums, > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true for > >> this > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > >> processes > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey > >> from > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did > >> that > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills began to > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > >> > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 > >> miles > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the great > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own terms, > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen of > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for both > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years on) > >> or > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green Revolution'.) > >> At > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling through > >> the > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > >> > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > >> convincing. > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue or > >> event > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of some > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the Indian > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in 2007? > >> > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered > >> with > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of > >> Delhi. > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such narratives > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless we > >> can > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and understand > >> the > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply left > >> with > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > >> Shastri, > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri has > >> the > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > >> > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > >> distaste > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in his > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK Patil, a > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha and > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > >> dismissal > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of the > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass movement > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, > >> Indira > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have > >> been > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin the > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between Indira > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > >> > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to > >> 1987. > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > >> 'history' > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the > >> thirty-year > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs a > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can place > >> those > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and > >> clamour of the present". > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at once > >> too > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section from > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history actually > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some > >> things: > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati and > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > >> International > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the horizon > >> of > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > >> > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, and > >> then > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries become > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections called > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through Caste, > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the conflicts > >> in > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there was > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > >> movement > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights (or > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of it > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who we > >> are > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to demand > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader > >> herself > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of her > >> flock". > >> > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, engaged > >> in > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, and > >> in > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to either > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even make > >> it > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the > >> 21st > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds of > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front > >> ranks > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > >> > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > >> opinions > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a > >> curious > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > >> unseemly > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few exceptions, > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the first > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, from > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, this > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, and > >> this > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our > >> times. > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > >> movement > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which the > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > >> > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are your > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the India > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going to go > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to > >> 1987? > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand the > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, The > >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – will > >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to day > >> history of the little in this country. > >> > >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of one > >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. Impatient > >> with > >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to it's > >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's peculiar > >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru was > >> of > >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has > >> "written > >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the same > >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar Lohia, > >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, > >> Mayawati, > >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has > >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram scrapes > >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to High > >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in the > >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: "K > >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a thick-set > >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny Liston > >> and > >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description of > >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > >> > >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my > >> reading > >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the > >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the crucial > >> last > >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even the > >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws together > >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch of > >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the > >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to make > >> the > >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour its > >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" Neither > >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > >> > >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges in > >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at the > >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a single, > >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. > >> Both > >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a whole". > >> Guha > >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > >> innocence > >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the "single, > >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? After > >> all, > >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, is > >> it > >> not? > >> At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of > >> land > >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of 2006, "a > >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to > >> open > >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway and > >> held > >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking whom, > >> and > >> how? > >> > >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand > >> Singh > >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was a > >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists taking up > >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > >> Militants, always "Terrorists". > >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline the > >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra > >> Guha's > >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter – > >> leave > >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early > >> 1990s > >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of occupation, > >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled easily > >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their actions". > >> Once > >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which > >> scholars > >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the slipshod > >> words of television anchors. > >> > >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in the > >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state on > >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves wished > >> to > >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, with > >> its > >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of a > >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the > >> Islamic > >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – speaking > >> as > >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists > >> there > >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely ahistoric > >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged by > >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > >> > >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that only > >> in > >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" does > >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and > >> only > >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then does > >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy people > >> are > >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm bells? > >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it really > >> reaches fifty-fifty? > >> > >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that the > >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to have > >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest > >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the > >> grand > >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled > >> margins: > >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others who > >> are > >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in the > >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important marker. It > >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be > >> taken > >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is fast > >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost mathematically > >> calibrated cowardice. > >> > >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of the > >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy hosannas > >> to > >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our 'shining' > >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set > >> India > >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, China > >> 0). > >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and oppression > >> are > >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, Ramachandra > >> Guha > >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to CEOs > >> and > >> investors at the next Davos. > >> > >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent film > >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom in > >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 10:16:49 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:16:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803092146k58aef51g7a88b339728d8504@mail.gmail.com> Asit , Before you speak more on Kashmir and compare why Moti Lal Nehru sent Jawahar Abroad for education , you should be atleast aware when that family migrated out of Kashmir. Talk on subject where you have enough knowledge , else you make people laugh. Pawan On 3/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal capacities > how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr > significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every > kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason is > simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is it > so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this > possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me > only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving > exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this > has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last > query > who has the copy right to speak about kashmir > asit > > On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of > students' > > revolt in France. > > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a clean > chit by > > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely oppressed > by > > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked for > not > > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri culture. > The > > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for not > > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and > > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by > non-state > > agents. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Asit asitreds" > > To: "Wali Arifi" > > Cc: "reader-list" > > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is > brilliant > > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a > > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 > > > its important from which position you are speaking from the side of > > > oppressed or the opressor > > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > > irresponsible nuetrality > > > asit > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review > of > > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > > >> > > >> by Sanjay Kak > > >> * > > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > > >> > > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the > more > > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book > India > > >> after > > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from > it's > > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's > > >> Largest > > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > > >> papers, > > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to > > >> have > > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > > >> > > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India > > >> (after > > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, > but > > >> for > > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny > > >> Walker > > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of > the > > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of > things > > >> to > > >> come. > > >> > > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian > > >> arrives > > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is > that > > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > > >> republic > > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and > 'victory', > > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or > place > > >> in > > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > diverse, so > > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, > or > > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the > media". > > >> > > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the > way > > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > Nagaland, > > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a > very > > >> long > > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian > nation > > >> has > > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has > not > > >> even > > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > >> > > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success > > >> story > > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, > but > > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the > > >> main, > > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. > From > > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > prediction > > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has > had > > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's > democracy. > > >> > > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for > which > > >> he > > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since > 1951 is > > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer > are > > >> a > > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a > > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are > > >> offered > > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > forty-three > > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > > >> sealing > > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were > > >> needed…". > > >> > > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied > > >> with > > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, > and > > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake > any > > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > parliamentary > > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also > > >> means > > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here > focused > > >> on > > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental > questions > > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites > in > > >> the > > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, > or > > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose > his > > >> way, > > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > >> > > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, > and > > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > > >> retrospective > > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of > what > > >> is > > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for > this is > > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by > training > > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted > > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this > ascribed > > >> lack > > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for > 'primary' > > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > > >> unchallenged > > >> – canvas. > > >> > > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of > some > > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar > papers) > > >> the > > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least > two > > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at > the > > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. > With > > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, > > >> Tanika > > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst > > >> others), > > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this > book > > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > > >> > > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > > >> dexterous > > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns > have > > >> been > > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too > he > > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to > the > > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group > of > > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the > positive > > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction > > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance > from > > >> a > > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front > rebels > > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of > > >> Lungleh > > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the > > >> Indian > > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > > >> businessman, > > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of > the > > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > >> > > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view > that > > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple > games, > > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt > that > > >> this > > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > encounter, > > >> he > > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The > peasant > > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > >> > > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of > what > > >> is > > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living > away > > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer > from > > >> UP > > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's > > >> museums, > > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true > for > > >> this > > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > > >> processes > > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey > > >> from > > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did > > >> that > > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills > began to > > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > > >> > > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 > > >> miles > > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the > great > > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own > terms, > > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen > of > > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for > both > > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years > on) > > >> or > > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > Revolution'.) > > >> At > > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling > through > > >> the > > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > >> > > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – > and > > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > > >> convincing. > > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue > or > > >> event > > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors > and > > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of > some > > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the > Indian > > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in > 2007? > > >> > > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered > > >> with > > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of > > >> Delhi. > > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > narratives > > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless > we > > >> can > > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > understand > > >> the > > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply > left > > >> with > > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > > >> Shastri, > > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the > > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri > has > > >> the > > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > > >> > > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > > >> distaste > > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in > his > > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK > Patil, a > > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha > and > > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > > >> dismissal > > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both > > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of > the > > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > movement > > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, > > >> Indira > > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have > > >> been > > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin > the > > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours > for > > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between > Indira > > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > >> > > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks > and > > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to > > >> 1987. > > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > > >> 'history' > > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the > > >> thirty-year > > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs > a > > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can > place > > >> those > > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din > and > > >> clamour of the present". > > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at > once > > >> too > > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section > from > > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > actually > > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some > > >> things: > > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati > and > > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > > >> International > > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the > horizon > > >> of > > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > >> > > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, > and > > >> then > > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries > become > > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of > > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections > called > > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through > Caste, > > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the > conflicts > > >> in > > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is > also > > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there > was > > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > > >> movement > > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights > (or > > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of > it > > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of > the > > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who > we > > >> are > > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to > demand > > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader > > >> herself > > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of > her > > >> flock". > > >> > > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, > engaged > > >> in > > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, > and > > >> in > > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to > either > > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even > make > > >> it > > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the > > >> 21st > > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds > of > > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front > > >> ranks > > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > >> > > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > > >> opinions > > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a > > >> curious > > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > > >> unseemly > > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few > exceptions, > > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the > first > > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, > from > > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, > this > > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, > and > > >> this > > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our > > >> times. > > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically > informed > > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, > and > > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada > Bachao > > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > > >> movement > > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the > > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which > the > > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > >> > > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are > your > > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the > India > > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going > to go > > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to > > >> 1987? > > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand > the > > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, > The > > >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – > will > > >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to > day > > >> history of the little in this country. > > >> > > >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > > >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > > >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of > one > > >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > Impatient > > >> with > > >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to > it's > > >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's > peculiar > > >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru > was > > >> of > > >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > > >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > > >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > > >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > > >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has > > >> "written > > >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the > same > > >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar > Lohia, > > >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, > > >> Mayawati, > > >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has > > >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram > scrapes > > >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to > High > > >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in > the > > >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: > "K > > >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a > thick-set > > >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny > Liston > > >> and > > >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description > of > > >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > >> > > >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my > > >> reading > > >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the > > >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the > crucial > > >> last > > >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even > the > > >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws > together > > >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch > of > > >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and > the > > >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to > make > > >> the > > >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour > its > > >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > > >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" > Neither > > >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > >> > > >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges > in > > >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at > the > > >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a > single, > > >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. > > >> Both > > >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > whole". > > >> Guha > > >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > > >> innocence > > >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the > "single, > > >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? > After > > >> all, > > >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, > is > > >> it > > >> not? > > >> At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of > > >> land > > >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of > 2006, "a > > >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to > > >> open > > >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway > and > > >> held > > >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking > whom, > > >> and > > >> how? > > >> > > >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand > > >> Singh > > >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was > a > > >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists > taking up > > >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > > >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > > >> Militants, always "Terrorists". > > >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline > the > > >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra > > >> Guha's > > >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter > – > > >> leave > > >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early > > >> 1990s > > >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > occupation, > > >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled > easily > > >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their actions". > > >> Once > > >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which > > >> scholars > > >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the > slipshod > > >> words of television anchors. > > >> > > >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in > the > > >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state > on > > >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves > wished > > >> to > > >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, > with > > >> its > > >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of > a > > >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the > > >> Islamic > > >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – > speaking > > >> as > > >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists > > >> there > > >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > ahistoric > > >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged > by > > >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > >> > > >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that > only > > >> in > > >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" > does > > >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and > > >> only > > >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then > does > > >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy > people > > >> are > > >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > > >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm > bells? > > >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it > really > > >> reaches fifty-fifty? > > >> > > >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that > the > > >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to > have > > >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest > > >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the > > >> grand > > >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled > > >> margins: > > >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others > who > > >> are > > >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in > the > > >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > marker. It > > >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be > > >> taken > > >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is > fast > > >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > > >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > mathematically > > >> calibrated cowardice. > > >> > > >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of > the > > >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > hosannas > > >> to > > >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > > >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > 'shining' > > >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set > > >> India > > >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, > China > > >> 0). > > >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > oppression > > >> are > > >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > > >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > Ramachandra > > >> Guha > > >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > > >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to > CEOs > > >> and > > >> investors at the next Davos. > > >> > > >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent > film > > >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom > in > > >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 11:44:06 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:44:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803092146k58aef51g7a88b339728d8504@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70803092146k58aef51g7a88b339728d8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: well is a universal reality this a very common knowledge and commonsense On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Asit , > > Before you speak more on Kashmir and compare why Moti Lal Nehru sent Jawahar > Abroad for education , you should be atleast aware when that family migrated > out of Kashmir. > > Talk on subject where you have enough knowledge , else you make people > laugh. > > Pawan > > > > > > On 3/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal capacities > > how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr > > significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every > > kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason is > > simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is it > > so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this > > possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me > > only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving > > exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this > > has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last > > query > > who has the copy right to speak about kashmir > > asit > > > > On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of > students' > > > revolt in France. > > > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a clean > chit by > > > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely oppressed > by > > > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked for > not > > > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri culture. > The > > > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for not > > > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and > > > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by > non-state > > > agents. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Asit asitreds" > > > To: "Wali Arifi" > > > Cc: "reader-list" > > > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > > > > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is > brilliant > > > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a > > > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 > > > > its important from which position you are speaking from the side of > > > > oppressed or the opressor > > > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > > > irresponsible nuetrality > > > > asit > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > > > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review > of > > > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > > > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > > > >> > > > >> by Sanjay Kak > > > >> * > > > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > > > >> > > > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > > > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the > more > > > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book > India > > > >> after > > > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from > it's > > > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's > > > >> Largest > > > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > > > >> papers, > > > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to > > > >> have > > > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > > > >> > > > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India > > > >> (after > > > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, > but > > > >> for > > > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny > > > >> Walker > > > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > > > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of > the > > > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of > things > > > >> to > > > >> come. > > > >> > > > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian > > > >> arrives > > > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is > that > > > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > > > >> republic > > > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and > 'victory', > > > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or > place > > > >> in > > > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > diverse, so > > > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, > or > > > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the > media". > > > >> > > > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the > way > > > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > Nagaland, > > > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a > very > > > >> long > > > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian > nation > > > >> has > > > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > > > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has > not > > > >> even > > > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > > >> > > > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success > > > >> story > > > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > > > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, > but > > > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the > > > >> main, > > > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. > From > > > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > prediction > > > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has > had > > > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's > democracy. > > > >> > > > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for > which > > > >> he > > > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since > 1951 is > > > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer > are > > > >> a > > > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a > > > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > > > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > > > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are > > > >> offered > > > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > forty-three > > > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > > > >> sealing > > > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were > > > >> needed…". > > > >> > > > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied > > > >> with > > > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, > and > > > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake > any > > > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > parliamentary > > > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also > > > >> means > > > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here > focused > > > >> on > > > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > > > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental > questions > > > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites > in > > > >> the > > > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, > or > > > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose > his > > > >> way, > > > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > > >> > > > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, > and > > > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > > > >> retrospective > > > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of > what > > > >> is > > > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for > this is > > > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by > training > > > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted > > > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this > ascribed > > > >> lack > > > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for > 'primary' > > > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > > > >> unchallenged > > > >> – canvas. > > > >> > > > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of > some > > > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar > papers) > > > >> the > > > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least > two > > > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at > the > > > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. > With > > > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, > > > >> Tanika > > > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst > > > >> others), > > > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this > book > > > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > > > >> > > > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > > > >> dexterous > > > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns > have > > > >> been > > > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too > he > > > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to > the > > > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group > of > > > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the > positive > > > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction > > > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance > from > > > >> a > > > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front > rebels > > > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of > > > >> Lungleh > > > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the > > > >> Indian > > > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > > > >> businessman, > > > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of > the > > > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > > > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > > >> > > > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > > > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view > that > > > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > > > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > > > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > > > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple > games, > > > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt > that > > > >> this > > > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > > > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > encounter, > > > >> he > > > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > > > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The > peasant > > > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > > >> > > > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of > what > > > >> is > > > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living > away > > > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer > from > > > >> UP > > > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's > > > >> museums, > > > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true > for > > > >> this > > > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > > > >> processes > > > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey > > > >> from > > > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did > > > >> that > > > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills > began to > > > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > > > >> > > > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 > > > >> miles > > > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the > great > > > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own > terms, > > > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen > of > > > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for > both > > > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years > on) > > > >> or > > > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > > > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > Revolution'.) > > > >> At > > > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling > through > > > >> the > > > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > > >> > > > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – > and > > > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > > > >> convincing. > > > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue > or > > > >> event > > > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors > and > > > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of > some > > > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the > Indian > > > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in > 2007? > > > >> > > > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered > > > >> with > > > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of > > > >> Delhi. > > > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > narratives > > > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless > we > > > >> can > > > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > understand > > > >> the > > > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply > left > > > >> with > > > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > > > >> Shastri, > > > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the > > > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > > > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri > has > > > >> the > > > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > > > >> > > > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > > > >> distaste > > > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in > his > > > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK > Patil, a > > > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha > and > > > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > > > >> dismissal > > > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both > > > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of > the > > > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > movement > > > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, > > > >> Indira > > > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have > > > >> been > > > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > > > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin > the > > > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours > for > > > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between > Indira > > > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > > >> > > > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks > and > > > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to > > > >> 1987. > > > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > > > >> 'history' > > > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the > > > >> thirty-year > > > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs > a > > > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can > place > > > >> those > > > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din > and > > > >> clamour of the present". > > > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at > once > > > >> too > > > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section > from > > > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > actually > > > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some > > > >> things: > > > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati > and > > > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > > > >> International > > > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the > horizon > > > >> of > > > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > > >> > > > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > > > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, > and > > > >> then > > > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries > become > > > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of > > > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > > > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections > called > > > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through > Caste, > > > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the > conflicts > > > >> in > > > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is > also > > > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there > was > > > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > > > >> movement > > > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights > (or > > > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of > it > > > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of > the > > > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who > we > > > >> are > > > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to > demand > > > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader > > > >> herself > > > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of > her > > > >> flock". > > > >> > > > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, > engaged > > > >> in > > > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, > and > > > >> in > > > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to > either > > > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even > make > > > >> it > > > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the > > > >> 21st > > > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds > of > > > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front > > > >> ranks > > > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > > >> > > > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > > > >> opinions > > > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a > > > >> curious > > > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > > > >> unseemly > > > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few > exceptions, > > > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the > first > > > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, > from > > > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, > this > > > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, > and > > > >> this > > > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our > > > >> times. > > > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically > informed > > > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, > and > > > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada > Bachao > > > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > > > >> movement > > > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the > > > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which > the > > > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > > >> > > > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are > your > > > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the > India > > > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going > to go > > > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > > > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to > > > >> 1987? > > > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand > the > > > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, > The > > > >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – > will > > > >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to > day > > > >> history of the little in this country. > > > >> > > > >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > > > >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > > > >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of > one > > > >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > Impatient > > > >> with > > > >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to > it's > > > >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's > peculiar > > > >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru > was > > > >> of > > > >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > > > >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > > > >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > > > >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > > > >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has > > > >> "written > > > >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the > same > > > >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar > Lohia, > > > >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, > > > >> Mayawati, > > > >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has > > > >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram > scrapes > > > >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to > High > > > >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in > the > > > >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: > "K > > > >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a > thick-set > > > >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny > Liston > > > >> and > > > >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description > of > > > >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > > >> > > > >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my > > > >> reading > > > >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the > > > >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the > crucial > > > >> last > > > >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even > the > > > >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws > together > > > >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch > of > > > >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and > the > > > >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to > make > > > >> the > > > >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour > its > > > >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > > > >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" > Neither > > > >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > > >> > > > >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges > in > > > >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at > the > > > >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a > single, > > > >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. > > > >> Both > > > >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > whole". > > > >> Guha > > > >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > > > >> innocence > > > >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the > "single, > > > >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? > After > > > >> all, > > > >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, > is > > > >> it > > > >> not? > > > >> At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of > > > >> land > > > >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of > 2006, "a > > > >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to > > > >> open > > > >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway > and > > > >> held > > > >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking > whom, > > > >> and > > > >> how? > > > >> > > > >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand > > > >> Singh > > > >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was > a > > > >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists > taking up > > > >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > > > >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > > > >> Militants, always "Terrorists". > > > >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline > the > > > >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra > > > >> Guha's > > > >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter > – > > > >> leave > > > >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early > > > >> 1990s > > > >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > occupation, > > > >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled > easily > > > >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their actions". > > > >> Once > > > >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which > > > >> scholars > > > >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the > slipshod > > > >> words of television anchors. > > > >> > > > >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in > the > > > >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state > on > > > >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves > wished > > > >> to > > > >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, > with > > > >> its > > > >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of > a > > > >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the > > > >> Islamic > > > >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – > speaking > > > >> as > > > >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists > > > >> there > > > >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > ahistoric > > > >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged > by > > > >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > > >> > > > >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that > only > > > >> in > > > >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" > does > > > >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and > > > >> only > > > >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then > does > > > >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy > people > > > >> are > > > >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > > > >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm > bells? > > > >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it > really > > > >> reaches fifty-fifty? > > > >> > > > >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that > the > > > >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to > have > > > >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest > > > >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the > > > >> grand > > > >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled > > > >> margins: > > > >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others > who > > > >> are > > > >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in > the > > > >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > marker. It > > > >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be > > > >> taken > > > >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is > fast > > > >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > > > >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > mathematically > > > >> calibrated cowardice. > > > >> > > > >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of > the > > > >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > hosannas > > > >> to > > > >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > > > >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > 'shining' > > > >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set > > > >> India > > > >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, > China > > > >> 0). > > > >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > oppression > > > >> are > > > >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > > > >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > Ramachandra > > > >> Guha > > > >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > > > >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to > CEOs > > > >> and > > > >> investors at the next Davos. > > > >> > > > >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent > film > > > >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom > in > > > >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 11:47:59 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:47:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70803092146k58aef51g7a88b339728d8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: class caste and gender difference is a lived reality in india one doesnt need a specialist knowledge to know this common truth and common sense this applies to kashmir also asit On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Asit asitreds wrote: > well is a universal reality this a very common knowledge and commonsense > > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Asit , > > > > Before you speak more on Kashmir and compare why Moti Lal Nehru sent Jawahar > > Abroad for education , you should be atleast aware when that family migrated > > out of Kashmir. > > > > Talk on subject where you have enough knowledge , else you make people > > laugh. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal capacities > > > how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr > > > significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every > > > kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason is > > > simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is it > > > so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this > > > possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me > > > only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving > > > exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this > > > has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last > > > query > > > who has the copy right to speak about kashmir > > > asit > > > > > > On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of > > students' > > > > revolt in France. > > > > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a clean > > chit by > > > > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely oppressed > > by > > > > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked for > > not > > > > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri culture. > > The > > > > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for not > > > > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and > > > > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by > > non-state > > > > agents. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Asit asitreds" > > > > To: "Wali Arifi" > > > > Cc: "reader-list" > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > > > > > > > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is > > brilliant > > > > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a > > > > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 > > > > > its important from which position you are speaking from the side of > > > > > oppressed or the opressor > > > > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > > > > irresponsible nuetrality > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > > > > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review > > of > > > > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > > > > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > > > > >> > > > > >> by Sanjay Kak > > > > >> * > > > > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > > > > >> > > > > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > > > > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the > > more > > > > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book > > India > > > > >> after > > > > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from > > it's > > > > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's > > > > >> Largest > > > > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > > > > >> papers, > > > > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to > > > > >> have > > > > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > > > > >> > > > > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India > > > > >> (after > > > > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, > > but > > > > >> for > > > > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny > > > > >> Walker > > > > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > > > > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of > > the > > > > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of > > things > > > > >> to > > > > >> come. > > > > >> > > > > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian > > > > >> arrives > > > > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is > > that > > > > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > > > > >> republic > > > > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and > > 'victory', > > > > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or > > place > > > > >> in > > > > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > > diverse, so > > > > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, > > or > > > > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the > > media". > > > > >> > > > > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the > > way > > > > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > > Nagaland, > > > > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a > > very > > > > >> long > > > > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian > > nation > > > > >> has > > > > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > > > > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has > > not > > > > >> even > > > > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > > > >> > > > > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success > > > > >> story > > > > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > > > > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, > > but > > > > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the > > > > >> main, > > > > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. > > From > > > > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > > prediction > > > > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has > > had > > > > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's > > democracy. > > > > >> > > > > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for > > which > > > > >> he > > > > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since > > 1951 is > > > > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer > > are > > > > >> a > > > > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a > > > > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > > > > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > > > > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are > > > > >> offered > > > > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > > forty-three > > > > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > > > > >> sealing > > > > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were > > > > >> needed…". > > > > >> > > > > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied > > > > >> with > > > > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, > > and > > > > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake > > any > > > > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > > parliamentary > > > > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also > > > > >> means > > > > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here > > focused > > > > >> on > > > > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > > > > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental > > questions > > > > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, > > or > > > > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose > > his > > > > >> way, > > > > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > > > >> > > > > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, > > and > > > > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > > > > >> retrospective > > > > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of > > what > > > > >> is > > > > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for > > this is > > > > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by > > training > > > > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted > > > > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this > > ascribed > > > > >> lack > > > > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for > > 'primary' > > > > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > > > > >> unchallenged > > > > >> – canvas. > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of > > some > > > > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar > > papers) > > > > >> the > > > > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least > > two > > > > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at > > the > > > > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. > > With > > > > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, > > > > >> Tanika > > > > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst > > > > >> others), > > > > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this > > book > > > > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > > > > >> > > > > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > > > > >> dexterous > > > > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns > > have > > > > >> been > > > > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too > > he > > > > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to > > the > > > > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group > > of > > > > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the > > positive > > > > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction > > > > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance > > from > > > > >> a > > > > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front > > rebels > > > > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of > > > > >> Lungleh > > > > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the > > > > >> Indian > > > > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > > > > >> businessman, > > > > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of > > the > > > > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > > > > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > > > >> > > > > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > > > > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view > > that > > > > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > > > > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > > > > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > > > > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple > > games, > > > > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt > > that > > > > >> this > > > > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > > > > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > > encounter, > > > > >> he > > > > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > > > > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The > > peasant > > > > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > > > >> > > > > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of > > what > > > > >> is > > > > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living > > away > > > > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer > > from > > > > >> UP > > > > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's > > > > >> museums, > > > > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true > > for > > > > >> this > > > > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > > > > >> processes > > > > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey > > > > >> from > > > > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did > > > > >> that > > > > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills > > began to > > > > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > > > > >> > > > > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 > > > > >> miles > > > > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the > > great > > > > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own > > terms, > > > > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen > > of > > > > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for > > both > > > > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years > > on) > > > > >> or > > > > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > > > > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > > Revolution'.) > > > > >> At > > > > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling > > through > > > > >> the > > > > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > > > >> > > > > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – > > and > > > > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > > > > >> convincing. > > > > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue > > or > > > > >> event > > > > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors > > and > > > > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of > > some > > > > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the > > Indian > > > > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in > > 2007? > > > > >> > > > > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered > > > > >> with > > > > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of > > > > >> Delhi. > > > > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > > narratives > > > > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless > > we > > > > >> can > > > > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > > understand > > > > >> the > > > > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply > > left > > > > >> with > > > > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > > > > >> Shastri, > > > > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the > > > > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > > > > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri > > has > > > > >> the > > > > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > > > > >> > > > > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > > > > >> distaste > > > > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in > > his > > > > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK > > Patil, a > > > > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha > > and > > > > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > > > > >> dismissal > > > > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both > > > > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of > > the > > > > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > > movement > > > > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, > > > > >> Indira > > > > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have > > > > >> been > > > > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > > > > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin > > the > > > > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours > > for > > > > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between > > Indira > > > > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > > > >> > > > > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks > > and > > > > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to > > > > >> 1987. > > > > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > > > > >> 'history' > > > > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the > > > > >> thirty-year > > > > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs > > a > > > > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can > > place > > > > >> those > > > > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din > > and > > > > >> clamour of the present". > > > > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at > > once > > > > >> too > > > > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section > > from > > > > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > > actually > > > > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some > > > > >> things: > > > > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati > > and > > > > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > > > > >> International > > > > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the > > horizon > > > > >> of > > > > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > > > >> > > > > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > > > > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, > > and > > > > >> then > > > > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries > > become > > > > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of > > > > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > > > > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections > > called > > > > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through > > Caste, > > > > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the > > conflicts > > > > >> in > > > > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is > > also > > > > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there > > was > > > > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > > > > >> movement > > > > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights > > (or > > > > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of > > it > > > > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of > > the > > > > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who > > we > > > > >> are > > > > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to > > demand > > > > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader > > > > >> herself > > > > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of > > her > > > > >> flock". > > > > >> > > > > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, > > engaged > > > > >> in > > > > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, > > and > > > > >> in > > > > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to > > either > > > > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even > > make > > > > >> it > > > > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the > > > > >> 21st > > > > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds > > of > > > > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front > > > > >> ranks > > > > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > > > >> > > > > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > > > > >> opinions > > > > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a > > > > >> curious > > > > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > > > > >> unseemly > > > > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few > > exceptions, > > > > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the > > first > > > > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, > > from > > > > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, > > this > > > > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, > > and > > > > >> this > > > > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our > > > > >> times. > > > > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically > > informed > > > > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, > > and > > > > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada > > Bachao > > > > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > > > > >> movement > > > > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the > > > > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which > > the > > > > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > > > >> > > > > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are > > your > > > > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the > > India > > > > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going > > to go > > > > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > > > > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to > > > > >> 1987? > > > > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand > > the > > > > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, > > The > > > > >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian State – > > will > > > > >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the day to > > day > > > > >> history of the little in this country. > > > > >> > > > > >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been highly > > > > >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > > > > >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale of > > one > > > > >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > > Impatient > > > > >> with > > > > >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it to > > it's > > > > >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's > > peculiar > > > > >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal Nehru > > was > > > > >> of > > > > >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge educated > > > > >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are identically > > > > >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is "a > > > > >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is "an > > > > >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh has > > > > >> "written > > > > >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why the > > same > > > > >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar > > Lohia, > > > > >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi Ram, > > > > >> Mayawati, > > > > >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because he has > > > > >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram > > scrapes > > > > >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go to > > High > > > > >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal Opportunity in > > the > > > > >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller description: > > "K > > > > >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a > > thick-set > > > > >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny > > Liston > > > > >> and > > > > >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining description > > of > > > > >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > > > >> > > > > >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding my > > > > >> reading > > > > >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed with the > > > > >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the > > crucial > > > > >> last > > > > >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without even > > the > > > > >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws > > together > > > > >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the epoch > > of > > > > >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid and > > the > > > > >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on to > > make > > > > >> the > > > > >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not honour > > its > > > > >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one trust a > > > > >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" > > Neither > > > > >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > > > >> > > > > >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he acknowledges > > in > > > > >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and at > > the > > > > >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a > > single, > > > > >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority community. > > > > >> Both > > > > >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > > whole". > > > > >> Guha > > > > >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > > > > >> innocence > > > > >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the > > "single, > > > > >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? > > After > > > > >> all, > > > > >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still out, > > is > > > > >> it > > > > >> not? > > > > >> At another point he describes the protests against the acquisition of > > > > >> land > > > > >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of > > 2006, "a > > > > >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the police to > > > > >> open > > > > >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the highway > > and > > > > >> held > > > > >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking > > whom, > > > > >> and > > > > >> how? > > > > >> > > > > >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant Harchand > > > > >> Singh > > > > >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination was > > a > > > > >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists > > taking up > > > > >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a dozen > > > > >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are never > > > > >> Militants, always "Terrorists". > > > > >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to underline > > the > > > > >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by Ramachandra > > > > >> Guha's > > > > >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent reporter > > – > > > > >> leave > > > > >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the early > > > > >> 1990s > > > > >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > > occupation, > > > > >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists mingled > > easily > > > > >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their actions". > > > > >> Once > > > > >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', which > > > > >> scholars > > > > >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the > > slipshod > > > > >> words of television anchors. > > > > >> > > > > >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in India in > > the > > > > >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic state > > on > > > > >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves > > wished > > > > >> to > > > > >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the RSS, > > with > > > > >> its > > > > >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's ideal of > > a > > > > >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of the > > > > >> Islamic > > > > >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – > > speaking > > > > >> as > > > > >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan exists > > > > >> there > > > > >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > > ahistoric > > > > >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain unchallenged > > by > > > > >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > > > >> > > > > >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit that > > only > > > > >> in > > > > >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian nation" > > does > > > > >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and authority, and > > > > >> only > > > > >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How then > > does > > > > >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest Democracy > > people > > > > >> are > > > > >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence on > > > > >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the alarm > > bells? > > > > >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it > > really > > > > >> reaches fifty-fifty? > > > > >> > > > > >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn that > > the > > > > >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem to > > have > > > > >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's Largest > > > > >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with the > > > > >> grand > > > > >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's troubled > > > > >> margins: > > > > >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many others > > who > > > > >> are > > > > >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join in > > the > > > > >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > > marker. It > > > > >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask to be > > > > >> taken > > > > >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change is > > fast > > > > >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as too > > > > >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > > mathematically > > > > >> calibrated cowardice. > > > > >> > > > > >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the celebrations of > > the > > > > >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > > hosannas > > > > >> to > > > > >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status as an > > > > >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > > 'shining' > > > > >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to set > > > > >> India > > > > >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India 1, > > China > > > > >> 0). > > > > >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > > oppression > > > > >> are > > > > >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to our > > > > >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > > Ramachandra > > > > >> Guha > > > > >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where we > > > > >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on to > > CEOs > > > > >> and > > > > >> investors at the next Davos. > > > > >> > > > > >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose recent > > film > > > > >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of freedom > > in > > > > >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 11:51:07 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:51:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Aurangazeb and Islamic compassion-I In-Reply-To: <6353c690803090126q449e3577kfb5b2431a61bd197@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803090126q449e3577kfb5b2431a61bd197@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803092321y66d7034cse54bdce9d8d03954@mail.gmail.com> FYI : Today's papers carry a story of how the exhibition was withdrawn due to protests. Rgds, Partha ........... On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Aurangazeb and Islamic > compassion-I< > http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/aurangazeb-and-islamic-compassion-i/ > > > > > *FACT* (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) had organized an > Exhibition > of Paintings under the theme '*AURANGAZEB'* as he was' according to Mughal > Records' in Chennai from 3 to 9 March, 2008. > > > > Read much more indepth detail at > > http://factusa.blogspot.com/2008/03/aurangazeb-and-islamic-compassion-i.html > > > > Thanks > > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 12:04:37 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:04:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Aurangazeb and Islamic compassion-I In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690803090126q449e3577kfb5b2431a61bd197@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803092321y66d7034cse54bdce9d8d03954@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Asit asitreds wrote: > whats the point in exhuming the ghosts of past this country has enough > problems ireally dont understand the game plan if historical injustice > is to be adressed what abut the aryan inavasion and creation of a > caste society and a life of perpetual indignity for women dalits and > the toilers who destroyed the dravidian civilisation how was buddhism > wiped out the list is end less > asit > > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > FYI : Today's papers carry a story of how the exhibition was withdrawn due > > to protests. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ........... > > > > On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Aurangazeb and Islamic > > > compassion-I< > > > http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/aurangazeb-and-islamic-compassion-i/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > *FACT* (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) had organized an > > > Exhibition > > > of Paintings under the theme '*AURANGAZEB'* as he was' according to Mughal > > > Records' in Chennai from 3 to 9 March, 2008. > > > > > > > > > > > > Read much more indepth detail at > > > > > > http://factusa.blogspot.com/2008/03/aurangazeb-and-islamic-compassion-i.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From atreyee.m at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 13:30:49 2008 From: atreyee.m at gmail.com (atreyee majumder) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:30:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [invites] Petition to save Niyamgiri and its tribals from Vedanta In-Reply-To: References: <79e82f610803072312l515ea3e5gcb2c3f2c9d265863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1944bc230803100100k42da621ch2e56f169478b7df4@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Asit asitreds Date: Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 1:20 PM Subject: Fwd: [invites] Petition to save Niyamgiri and its tribals from Vedanta To: Kavita Krishnan , "kavisriv at gmail.com" < kavisriv at gmail.com>, Suresh Saila , CR Bijoy < rights at rediffmail.com>, rightperspectives , " mukta.srivastava at gmail.com" , " nba.medha at gmail.com" , Simpreet Singh < simpreetsingh at gmail.com>, "andolan.sunitivinay at gmail.com" < andolan.sunitivinay at gmail.com>, anju.azad at gmail.com, " ananya.d at equitabletourism.org" , " anhad_delhi at yahoo.co.in" , "ashaashram at yahoo.com" < ashaashram at yahoo.com>, "Madhuresh in city of protests..." < kmadhuresh at gmail.com>, Madhumanti , " madhulika.banerjee at gmail.com" , " dr_mohanty at yahoo.com" , "DR. Lenin" < pvchr.india at gmail.com>, Rajendra Ravi NAPM , " ravi at theothermedia.org" , Ravi Kuchimanchi < khiyali at gmail.com>, Priya Ranjan , Amit Basole < abasole at gmail.com>, abhayaorissa at yahoo.co.in, JANSANSKRITI < jansanskriti at rediffmail.com>, janmadhyam at gmail.com, Jamal kidwai < jamal at amanpanchayat.org>, "aseem62 at yahoo.com" , Ramu Lalita , Lalit , "tanveer at ncdhr.org" , vincent at ncdhr.org, vineetjnu at gmail.com, " justiceinbhopal at yahoo.co.in" , " judav_jharkhand at yahoo.com" , justice daud < jsmd at vsnl.net>, justicesuresh at vsnl.net, Henri Tiphagne , hrlnkol at gmail.com, hrln at vsnl.net, hrlu at isidelhi.org.in, " yuvasamvad at gmail.com" , "aditya at sarai.net" < aditya at sarai.net>, "nidhi_pin at yahoo.co.in" , nishan.justice at gmail.com, rona358 at gmail.com, "gnsaibaba at gmail.com" < gnsaibaba at gmail.com>, gnavlakha at gmail.com, "meenamenon at gmail.com" < meenamenon at gmail.com>, "pudrdelhi at pudr.org" , "Shoma Sen PUCL (Nagpur)" , "Pushkar Raj PUCL (Delhi)" < raajpushkar at gmail.com>, pucl.rajasthan at gmail.com, ranas at cal2.vsnl.net.in, " ramratanchatterjee at yahoo.com" , " creative.rashid at gmail.com" , willyindia at gmail.com, "souparna.lahiri at gmail.com" , Achin Vanaik < achin at bol.net.in>, Maju Varghese , " nachiketmj at gmail.com" , "ruhaanj at gmail.com" < ruhaanj at gmail.com>, "bidwai at bol.net.in" , bisaac at dialb.greenpeace.org, shrimoyee at gmail.com, B D sharma < bharatjanandolan at gmail.com>, shruti.tiss at gmail.com, "alkap at tiss.edu" < alkap at tiss.edu>, "vidyunsabhaney at gmail.com" , vibhaiyer at gmail.com, thisisnotriju at gmail.com, roshan kishore < roshan.jnu at gmail.com>, amit bhaduri , amityal at gmail.com, Amitabh gmail , asim.human at gmail.com, faisal khan , " goldymgeorge at gmail.com" , Saurabh Bhattacharjee < saurabhbhattacharjee at gmail.com>, "Neera Adarkar (PIPFPD" , neeraajam2004 at yahoo.com, "jagada at cysd.org" , jagoindia2 at yahoo.co.in, "natashashukla at hotmail.com" < natashashukla at hotmail.com>, "L.Mehta at ids.ac.uk" , " pbasu at cas.usf.edu" , "sunnydsood at gmail.com" < sunnydsood at gmail.com>, abdulhafiz gandhi , " adityanagarmat at indiatimes.com" , " masum at vsnl.com" , Sunayana NALSAR < massmovements.nalsar at gmail.com>, "jprao18 at yahoo.co.uk" , "V.T. Padma Kerala" , "inquilab.jnu at gmail.com" < inquilab.jnu at gmail.com>, jnu.dasashish at gmail.com, jnu.vijendra at gmail.com, " jnu_jnv at yahoo.co.in" , "ht.sandrp at gmail.com" < ht.sandrp at gmail.com>, Sanjay Mangala Gopal , sanhatieast at sanhati.com, "sandarbhcommune at yahoo.com" < sandarbhcommune at yahoo.com>, "jayasandarbh at yahoo.com" , nityanand jayaraman , "yogendra.yadav at gmail.com" < yogendra.yadav at gmail.com>, Aditi Chowdhury , " kalpanaindu at hotmail.com" , Kalyani Menon-Sen < kmenonsen at gmail.com>, "aisahq at rediffmail.com" , " info at cpiml.in" , "billy.macrae.online at gmail.com" < billy.macrae.online at gmail.com>, "dan888glass at yahoo.com" < dan888glass at yahoo.com>, "penrok at yahoo.com.au" , greenjai at rediffmail.com, "nitinredgreen at gmail.com" , himanshu damle , "himanshugreen at gmail.com" < himanshugreen at gmail.com>, "schaudhry at hic-sarp.org" , "sharadbehar at yahoo.com" , Shashank Kela < skela_ngp at sancharnet.in>, "umafam at gmail.com" , "D. Suresh Kumar APCLC (AP)" , "Sujato Bhadra APDR (West Bengal)" , apnawritings at yahoo.co.in, pnnhindi at gmail.com, pnnenglish at gmail.com, anjali at tiss.edu, anjalides at gmail.com, bharadwajtiss at gmail.com, bharat_jnu at rediffmail.com, pmondal at tiss.edu, " vshiva at vsnl.com" , shekhar singh , manjuspshukla at gmail.com, manjumenon at vsnl.net, Vrinda Grover < vrindagrover at gmail.com>, "sudhir.pattnaik at gmail.com" < sudhir.pattnaik at gmail.com>, "sudarsan_d at yahoo.com" , smitu , hbeck at tiss.edu, "divyarrs at rediffmail.com" < divyarrs at rediffmail.com>, meher engineer , Vijay Pratap , bRakesh Bhatt , Rakhi Sehgal , "deependralabyrinth at rediffmail.com" < deependralabyrinth at rediffmail.com>, "harshmander at vsnl.net" < harshmander at vsnl.net>, harshdobhal at gmail.com, Bela Bhatia < writetobela at gmail.com>, "ncas at vsnl.com" , ncasdelhi at vsnl.net, "cehatindore at rediffmail.com" , " cehatpun at vsnl.com" , "cedban at doccentre.org" < cedban at doccentre.org>, vimochana79 at gmail.com, Vani Subramanian < vanishes at gmail.com>, saheliwomen at hotmail.com, Kashipur movement < pssp_kashipur at yahoo.co.in>, "psamantara at rediffmail.com" < psamantara at rediffmail.com>, nishasusan at tehelka.com, mayur chetia < mayurchetia at gmail.com>, seemamustafa at gmail.com, "mahapatraseela at gmail.com" < mahapatraseela at gmail.com>, Ulka Mahajan , Dharitri Prakash , bighneswarsahu at gmail.com, saamit1 at hotmail.com, patnaikashutosh at gmail.com, "manthan_b at sancharnet.in" < manthan_b at sancharnet.in>, Zindabad , " perhaps at vsnl.net" , "octave at vsnl.com" , " soch at vsnl.com" , "kritian at krititeam.org" < kritian at krititeam.org>, "ntui at vsnl.net" , pbkmswb at gmail.com, "pradeepdipu at rediffmail.com" , pratibha shinde < loksamanway at yahoo.co.uk>, "kamalchenoy at yahoo.com" , kamal.kabra at gmail.com, kamla at sangatsouthasia.org, "mkssrajasthan at gmail.com" , "philjim at rediffmail.com" , "joeathialy at gmail.com" , "karunamdw at rediffmail.com" < karunamdw at rediffmail.com>, karuna john , sandeep.jnusu at gmail.com, vchandra53 at yahoo.co.in, Sukla Sen < sukla.sen at gmail.com>, Ilina Sen , docarun2 at rediffmail.com, Xavier Dias , "ojas s.v." < yoursojas at yahoo.co.in>, babuubab at gmail.com, baxiupendra at aol.com, " amb1857 at yahoo.com" , "CPCHINDIA at yahoo.com" < CPCHINDIA at yahoo.com>, "aid_rajeshwar at yahoo.com" , " nadi_ghati at yahoo.com" , Nagraj Adve < nagraj.adve at gmail.com>, Nandini Sunder , " gautamraipur at rediffmail.com" , national hawker federation , " nationalsocialwatch at yahoo.co.in" , aidslaw1 at lawyerscollective.org, aidslaw2 at lawyerscollective.org, babu.mathew at actionaid.org, nirantar at vsnl.com, Atreyee , "jiten_nandi at vsnl.net" , prakash ray < pkray11 at gmail.com>, "pksundaram at gmail.com" - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rohan DSouza Date: Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 12:42 PM Subject: [invites] Petition to save Niyamgiri and its tribals from Vedanta To: From: SURYA Dear all, An online petition to Prime Minister on Niyamgiri issue has been hosted and is open for sign-ons. Please visit this url: http://www.petitiononline.com/niyam/petition.html You could also add it as a sign-off to your mails. Best Surya To: Indian Prime Minister and Indian National Congress Party Chief Dr. Manmohan Singh Hon. Prime Minister of India & Sonia Gandhi Chairperson, United Progressive Alliance and Indian National Congress Party Chief We are writing to draw your urgent attention to a matter of grave concern for India and the world, and appealing to you to protect the lives, culture and place of worship of the Kondh Adivasis, and the rich biodiversity which has been conserved due to their beliefs. Respected Sir and Madam, The Supreme Court, after a case lasting over three years, is about to give clearance to Sterlite/Vedanta to mine bauxite on the summit of Niyamgiri in the state of Orissa based on the recommendation of the Ministry of Environment and Forests as well as Government of Orissa. If mining is permitted there, two of India's strongest Constitutional guarantees will be overturned: the right of a "primitive tribal group" to their territorial integrity and to decide on their own path of development (Schedule V of the Indian Constitution); and the right to religious practices and beliefs (Article 25 of the Constitution), since the summit of this mountain is sacred place of worship to the Dongria Kondh's supreme deity Niyam Raja. Your intervention is required because the case has been marked by numerous legal irregularities, starting with the construction of Vedanta's refinery below the mountain without seeking forest clearance for mining it and against strong recommendations from the Central Empowered Committee (the Supreme Court's advisory body). The Court judgment dated 23rd November 2007 concedes that Vedanta is not a trustworthy company, due to its worldwide pattern of human rights and environmental abuses, outlined in a recent Norway Government report. It nevertheless invites Sterlite to form a 'Special Purpose Vehicle' to mine the mountain, despite Sterlite being Vedanta's 80% owned subsidiary, mentioned for its malpractice throughout the Norway report. more at http://www.petitiononline.com/niyam/petition.html __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages Please ensure that this information is used. Share it widely... and ALWAYS check before you go. 'Reply' goes to the person who posted only. So please check email ID before sending (especially for forwarded messages)! Ask others to join by sending a mail to invites-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post directly to invites at yahoogroups.com (attachments are automatically removed by yahoogroup setting) Status:: 1 March 2008:: 2764 subscribers, 405 bouncing The earth is not under threat due to global warming. We are. And the folks at yahoo gently let us know that: Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity 14 New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. New web site? Drive traffic now. Get your business on Yahoo! search. Popular Y! Groups Is your group one? Check it out and see. . __,_._,___ From prem.cnt at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 14:48:16 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:48:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] RFID for security and privacy? In-Reply-To: <3273B2C0-C1C9-475B-9BB1-B26BF3DDDB98@sarai.net> References: <5DD124D4-DB83-41CC-9E67-E5F8A01E27F3@sarai.net> <6353c690803060501u35190309qa7a22f20d24f1a1e@mail.gmail.com> <3273B2C0-C1C9-475B-9BB1-B26BF3DDDB98@sarai.net> Message-ID: <7e230b560803100218ndbac3eby2a60c2ed57778775@mail.gmail.com> Dear Jeebesh, In response to your question, I would like to cite the English utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) who came up with an architectural concept for the design of prisons which was called the "panopticon". Bentham's design called for the jail cells to be arranged in a circle. At the centre of the circle is a guard tower whose windows have closely spaced louvers that are designed such that the guard within can look out at the jail cells, but from the jail cells the prisoners cannot tell whether a guard is within the tower. The jail cells are divided from each other by opaque walls, so the prisoners cannot see each other, and therefore, cannot coordinate their behaviour. A guard does not even have to occupy the tower at all times - an occasional visit will suffice. While each prisoner cannot see whether the guard is in the tower, they also cannot tell whether the guard is absent from the tower. The mere possibility of always being within the spotlight of surveillance makes the prisoner behave properly (that is in the manner that the guard expects him to behave). Bentham seemed to see this as a humane solution, as power and/or coercision do not have to be overtly applied, and even perpetual surveillance is not required - its mere possibility is sufficient. Again, this threat needs to be perceived only by those who are likely to forment dissent, as the larger majority will tend to follow such leaders. It could therefore be argued that in this digital age of data mining and RFID tags, Bentham's panopticon is now being extended to all of society. If one buy's into Bentham's concept that the perpetual possibility of surveillance is the best way to achieve order in an otherwise unruly society, then you could argue that an electronic tagging system will help to make citizens secure. While I have not come across anyone explicitly citing Bentham's panopticon, I suspect that this is the logic that is being applied. This of course assumes a buy-in to the following assumptions (which although they appear philosophically problematic, are fairly symptomatic of contemporary governance): 1. A society left to itself without adequate supervision will tend toward becoming unruly (The "Lord of the Flies" argument). 2. For the emergence of stable social order, the vertical connections between the citizen and the state (a social contract??) are of greater importance than the lateral connections between citizens. Regards, Prem On 06/03/2008, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > dear Razdan, > > Aditya Kaul referred you as someone who can explain the RFID > technologies relation to citizen's empowerment. Enclosed below is a > news report that claims "citizens the tools and choices they nee to > ensure privacy and security"?. Was wondering how an electronic > tagging system make citizens secure. Will be nice if you could help > us understand this. > > Thanks in advance. > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > On 06-Mar-08, at 6:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > One of friends Aditya Razdan is an expert in RFID Technology in entire > > South-Asia.He works as the Regional Sales Manager- South > > Asia > +Manager-+South+Asia%22> > > of > > AssA Abloy ITG > +Abloy+ITG%22>. > > Their website is http://www.aaitg.com > > > > He can be also reached at razdan.aditya at gmail.com > > > > Thanks > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On 3/6/08, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > >> > >> dear all, > >> > >> here is a news item. can anybody in the list please explain how RFID > >> technologies will enhance "citizens the tools and choices they need > >> to ensure privacy and security"? > >> > >> warmly > >> > >> jeebesh > >> > >> http://www.igovernment.in/site/ec-launches-consultation-on-rfid- > >> usage- > >> issues/ > >> > >> > >> EC launches consultation on RFID usage issues > >> Prithwi > >> March 6, 2008 | RFID & Smart Card and e-Gov. | > >> > >> Brussels: The European Commission (EC) launched a public consultation > >> on the Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology issues > >> relating to privacy, data protection and information security. > >> > >> The Commission has requested inputs relating to scope of RFID, its > >> use in the retail sector and role in information security, and need > >> for awareness-raising activities, reports ePractice. > >> > >> Predicting that the RFID market will grow rapidly over the next 10 > >> years, the Commission said that RFID technology is expected to create > >> many new opportunities for European business. > >> > >> It further said the public sector would see a lot of RFID technology > >> usage including e-Government, national defence and security, apart > >> from usage in consumer field including personal safety, sports and > >> leisure, smart homes and smart cities. > >> > >> The public consultation has been launched to support preparation of > >> the Commission's forthcoming 'Recommendation on RFID', due to be > >> adopted later in 2008. > >> > >> The key challenge for the recommendation will be to devise a common > >> vision and set goals of how it can keep Europe innovative and > >> competitive in the world economy, giving citizens the tools and > >> choices they need to ensure privacy and security. > >> —iGovernment Bureau > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 15:22:19 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:22:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Move opposed Message-ID: <3457ce860803100252q72b2fdc5p984f8d1079d57661@mail.gmail.com> Move opposed Special Correspondent http://www.thehindu.com/2008/03/10/stories/2008031050620200.htm THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Theeradesa Mahilavedi, the women's wing of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation, has warned that it will resist any move to relocate fishermen and their families from the coastal areas. A meeting organised by the Mahilavedi here on Saturday alleged attempts by the State and Central governments to displace fisherfolk from their coastal settlements in the name of tourism development. Speakers at the meeting said they would mobilise the coastal residents for a resistance movement. The meeting alleged that women from the coastal areas employed in various firms located at the Kinfra Apparel Park, Thumba, were being heavily exploited. Theeradesa Mahilavedi district president Elizabeth Antony presided over the meeting. V. Sivankutty, MLA, inaugurated the function. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 18:58:05 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70803092146k58aef51g7a88b339728d8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c601c882b7$1c1826b0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> I am sorry, you are not making any sense to me. Come to the point. What is your argument? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Asit asitreds" To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "TaraPrakash" ; "reader-list" Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book class caste and gender difference is a lived reality in india one doesnt need a specialist knowledge to know this common truth and common sense this applies to kashmir also asit On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Asit asitreds wrote: > well is a universal reality this a very common knowledge and commonsense > > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Asit , > > > > Before you speak more on Kashmir and compare why Moti Lal Nehru sent > Jawahar > > Abroad for education , you should be atleast aware when that family > migrated > > out of Kashmir. > > > > Talk on subject where you have enough knowledge , else you make people > > laugh. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal capacities > > > how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr > > > significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every > > > kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason is > > > simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is > it > > > so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this > > > possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me > > > only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving > > > exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this > > > has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last > > > query > > > who has the copy right to speak about kashmir > > > asit > > > > > > On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of > > students' > > > > revolt in France. > > > > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a > clean > > chit by > > > > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely > oppressed > > by > > > > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked > for > > not > > > > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri > culture. > > The > > > > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for > not > > > > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists > and > > > > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by > > non-state > > > > agents. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Asit asitreds" > > > > To: "Wali Arifi" > > > > Cc: "reader-list" > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > > > > > > > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is > > brilliant > > > > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt > take a > > > > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in > 1968 > > > > > its important from which position you are speaking from the side > of > > > > > oppressed or the opressor > > > > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > > > > irresponsible nuetrality > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > > > > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's > review > > of > > > > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > > > > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > > > > >> > > > > >> by Sanjay Kak > > > > >> * > > > > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > > > > >> > > > > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, > and his > > > > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from > the > > more > > > > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book > > India > > > > >> after > > > > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: > from > > it's > > > > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the > World's > > > > >> Largest > > > > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's > end > > > > >> papers, > > > > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in > retrospect to > > > > >> have > > > > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > > > > >> > > > > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in > India > > > > >> (after > > > > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he > agrees, > > but > > > > >> for > > > > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor > Johny > > > > >> Walker > > > > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a > modern > > > > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 > years of > > the > > > > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of > > things > > > > >> to > > > > >> come. > > > > >> > > > > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The > Historian > > > > >> arrives > > > > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The > first is > > that > > > > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of > this > > > > >> republic > > > > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and > > 'victory', > > > > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time > or > > place > > > > >> in > > > > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > > diverse, so > > > > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and > literature, > > or > > > > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the > > media". > > > > >> > > > > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India > all the > > way > > > > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > > Nagaland, > > > > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of > a > > very > > > > >> long > > > > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian > > nation > > > > >> has > > > > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone > dealing or > > > > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice > has > > not > > > > >> even > > > > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > > > >> > > > > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real > success > > > > >> story > > > > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in > that of > > > > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for > approval, > > but > > > > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, > in the > > > > >> main, > > > > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary > politics. > > From > > > > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > > prediction > > > > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since > India has > > had > > > > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's > > democracy. > > > > >> > > > > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections > for > > which > > > > >> he > > > > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election > since > > 1951 is > > > > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no > longer > > are > > > > >> a > > > > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian > life, a > > > > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five > years". As > > > > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and > accounts of > > > > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics > are > > > > >> offered > > > > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > > forty-three > > > > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink > and > > > > >> sealing > > > > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were > > > > >> needed…". > > > > >> > > > > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be > preoccupied > > > > >> with > > > > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of > democracy, > > and > > > > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a > mistake > > any > > > > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > > parliamentary > > > > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, > also > > > > >> means > > > > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain > here > > focused > > > > >> on > > > > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in > Parliamentary > > > > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental > > questions > > > > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the > Naxalites > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the > 1970s, > > or > > > > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to > lose > > his > > > > >> way, > > > > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > > > >> > > > > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in > methodology, > > and > > > > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > > > > >> retrospective > > > > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in > terms of > > what > > > > >> is > > > > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites > for > > this is > > > > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by > > training > > > > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have > "restricted > > > > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this > > ascribed > > > > >> lack > > > > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for > > 'primary' > > > > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > > > > >> unchallenged > > > > >> – canvas. > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception > of > > some > > > > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar > > papers) > > > > >> the > > > > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at > least > > two > > > > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious > Notes at > > the > > > > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be > so. > > With > > > > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni > Kothari, > > > > >> Tanika > > > > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot > (amongst > > > > >> others), > > > > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that > this > > book > > > > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > > > > >> > > > > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > > > > >> dexterous > > > > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper > columns > > have > > > > >> been > > > > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. > Here too > > he > > > > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want > returned to > > the > > > > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a > group > > of > > > > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the > > positive > > > > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the > distinction > > > > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's > significance > > from > > > > >> a > > > > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front > > rebels > > > > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the > strafing of > > > > >> Lungleh > > > > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by > the > > > > >> Indian > > > > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > > > > >> businessman, > > > > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days > of > > the > > > > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that > 'The > > > > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > > > >> > > > > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with > embarrassingly > > > > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve > view > > that > > > > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time > of > > > > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an > official > > > > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the > same > > > > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple > > games, > > > > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't > doubt > > that > > > > >> this > > > > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within > the > > > > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > > encounter, > > > > >> he > > > > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and > even > > > > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The > > peasant > > > > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > > > >> > > > > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance > of > > what > > > > >> is > > > > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. > "Living > > away > > > > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm > labourer > > from > > > > >> UP > > > > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the > city's > > > > >> museums, > > > > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt > true > > for > > > > >> this > > > > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of > the > > > > >> processes > > > > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the > journey > > > > >> from > > > > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And > where did > > > > >> that > > > > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills > > began to > > > > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > > > > >> > > > > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for > 150 > > > > >> miles > > > > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along > the > > great > > > > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its > own > > terms, > > > > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating > oxygen > > of > > > > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, > for > > both > > > > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 > years > > on) > > > > >> or > > > > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects > of the > > > > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > > Revolution'.) > > > > >> At > > > > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling > > through > > > > >> the > > > > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > > > >> > > > > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the > excessive – > > and > > > > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > > > > >> convincing. > > > > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an > issue > > or > > > > >> event > > > > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the > errors > > and > > > > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought > of > > some > > > > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and > the > > Indian > > > > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in > > 2007? > > > > >> > > > > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is > peppered > > > > >> with > > > > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out > of > > > > >> Delhi. > > > > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > > narratives > > > > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, > unless > > we > > > > >> can > > > > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > > understand > > > > >> the > > > > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are > simply > > left > > > > >> with > > > > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal > Bahadur > > > > >> Shastri, > > > > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by > the > > > > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a > condescending > > > > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine > Shastri > > has > > > > >> the > > > > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live > in!" > > > > >> > > > > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and > his > > > > >> distaste > > > > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most > clearly in > > his > > > > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK > > Patil, a > > > > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of > Satyagraha > > and > > > > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > > > > >> dismissal > > > > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is > both > > > > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the > opinions of > > the > > > > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > > movement > > > > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And > finally, > > > > >> Indira > > > > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would > have > > > > >> been > > > > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > > > > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to > pin > > the > > > > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the > honours > > for > > > > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared > between > > Indira > > > > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > > > >> > > > > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the > bricks > > and > > > > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 > through to > > > > >> 1987. > > > > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving > from > > > > >> 'history' > > > > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the > > > > >> thirty-year > > > > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also > needs > > a > > > > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can > > place > > > > >> those > > > > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the > din > > and > > > > >> clamour of the present". > > > > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is > at > > once > > > > >> too > > > > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the > section > > from > > > > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > > actually > > > > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for > some > > > > >> things: > > > > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi > Ram-Mayawati > > and > > > > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > > > > >> International > > > > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on > the > > horizon > > > > >> of > > > > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > > > >> > > > > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, > and the > > > > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out > too, > > and > > > > >> then > > > > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it > carries > > become > > > > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing > of > > > > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter > called > > > > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by > sections > > called > > > > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us > through > > Caste, > > > > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the > > conflicts > > > > >> in > > > > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there > is > > also > > > > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with > "there > > was > > > > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the > women's > > > > >> movement > > > > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's > rights > > (or > > > > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, > much of > > it > > > > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history > of > > the > > > > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", > who > > we > > > > >> are > > > > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… > to > > demand > > > > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The > leader > > > > >> herself > > > > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the > sufferings of > > her > > > > >> flock". > > > > >> > > > > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, > > engaged > > > > >> in > > > > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent > history, > > and > > > > >> in > > > > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice > to > > either > > > > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never > even > > make > > > > >> it > > > > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written > in the > > > > >> 21st > > > > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the > hundreds > > of > > > > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the > front > > > > >> ranks > > > > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > > > >> > > > > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN > Pannikar's > > > > >> opinions > > > > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always > had a > > > > >> curious > > > > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his > own > > > > >> unseemly > > > > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few > > exceptions, > > > > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in > the > > first > > > > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of > power, > > from > > > > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is > symptomatic, > > this > > > > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and > powerless, > > and > > > > >> this > > > > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from > illuminating our > > > > >> times. > > > > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically > > informed > > > > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad > Yadav, > > and > > > > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada > > Bachao > > > > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made > their > > > > >> movement > > > > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in > the > > > > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in > which > > the > > > > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > > > >> > > > > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what > are > > your > > > > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of > the > > India > > > > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they > going > > to go > > > > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar > (and > > > > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from > 1947 to > > > > >> 1987? > > > > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to > understand > > the > > > > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do > that, > > The > > > > >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian > State – > > will > > > > >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the > day to > > day > > > > >> history of the little in this country. > > > > >> > > > > >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been > highly > > > > >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to be > > > > >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable scale > of > > one > > > > >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > > Impatient > > > > >> with > > > > >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see it > to > > it's > > > > >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example Guha's > > peculiar > > > > >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal > Nehru > > was > > > > >> of > > > > >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge > educated > > > > >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are > identically > > > > >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis is > "a > > > > >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too is > "an > > > > >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh > has > > > > >> "written > > > > >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons why > the > > same > > > > >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram Manohar > > Lohia, > > > > >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi > Ram, > > > > >> Mayawati, > > > > >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because > he has > > > > >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram > > scrapes > > > > >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go > to > > High > > > > >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal > Opportunity in > > the > > > > >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller > description: > > "K > > > > >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was a > > thick-set > > > > >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between Sonny > > Liston > > > > >> and > > > > >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining > description > > of > > > > >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > > > >> > > > > >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things impeding > my > > > > >> reading > > > > >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed > with the > > > > >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for the > > crucial > > > > >> last > > > > >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment without > even > > the > > > > >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he draws > > together > > > > >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined the > epoch > > of > > > > >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri Masjid > and > > the > > > > >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes on > to > > make > > > > >> the > > > > >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not > honour > > its > > > > >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one > trust a > > > > >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different faith?" > > Neither > > > > >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > > > >> > > > > >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he > acknowledges > > in > > > > >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 > and at > > the > > > > >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to a > > single, > > > > >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority > community. > > > > >> Both > > > > >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > > whole". > > > > >> Guha > > > > >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to the > > > > >> innocence > > > > >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was the > > "single, > > > > >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in Gujarat? > > After > > > > >> all, > > > > >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is still > out, > > is > > > > >> it > > > > >> not? > > > > >> At another point he describes the protests against the > acquisition of > > > > >> land > > > > >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week of > > 2006, "a > > > > >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the > police to > > > > >> open > > > > >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the > highway > > and > > > > >> held > > > > >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was provoking > > whom, > > > > >> and > > > > >> how? > > > > >> > > > > >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant > Harchand > > > > >> Singh > > > > >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's assassination > was > > a > > > > >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of terrorists > > taking up > > > > >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least a > dozen > > > > >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there are > never > > > > >> Militants, always "Terrorists". > > > > >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to > underline > > the > > > > >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by > Ramachandra > > > > >> Guha's > > > > >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent > reporter > > – > > > > >> leave > > > > >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the > early > > > > >> 1990s > > > > >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > > occupation, > > > > >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists > mingled > > easily > > > > >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their > actions". > > > > >> Once > > > > >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', > which > > > > >> scholars > > > > >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like the > > slipshod > > > > >> words of television anchors. > > > > >> > > > > >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in > India in > > the > > > > >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic > state > > on > > > > >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who themselves > > wished > > > > >> to > > > > >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the > RSS, > > with > > > > >> its > > > > >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's > ideal of > > a > > > > >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea of > the > > > > >> Islamic > > > > >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view – > > speaking > > > > >> as > > > > >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan > exists > > > > >> there > > > > >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > > ahistoric > > > > >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain > unchallenged > > by > > > > >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > > > >> > > > > >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit > that > > only > > > > >> in > > > > >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian > nation" > > does > > > > >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and > authority, and > > > > >> only > > > > >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. How > then > > does > > > > >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest > Democracy > > people > > > > >> are > > > > >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his insistence > on > > > > >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the > alarm > > bells? > > > > >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When it > > really > > > > >> reaches fifty-fifty? > > > > >> > > > > >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn > that > > the > > > > >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too seem > to > > have > > > > >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's > Largest > > > > >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not with > the > > > > >> grand > > > > >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's > troubled > > > > >> margins: > > > > >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many > others > > who > > > > >> are > > > > >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to join > in > > the > > > > >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > > marker. It > > > > >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask > to be > > > > >> taken > > > > >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change > is > > fast > > > > >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen as > too > > > > >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > > mathematically > > > > >> calibrated cowardice. > > > > >> > > > > >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the > celebrations of > > the > > > > >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > > hosannas > > > > >> to > > > > >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status > as an > > > > >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > > 'shining' > > > > >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire to > set > > > > >> India > > > > >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, India > 1, > > China > > > > >> 0). > > > > >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > > oppression > > > > >> are > > > > >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute to > our > > > > >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > > Ramachandra > > > > >> Guha > > > > >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season where > we > > > > >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass on > to > > CEOs > > > > >> and > > > > >> investors at the next Davos. > > > > >> > > > > >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose > recent > > film > > > > >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of > freedom > > in > > > > >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > From epk at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 10 20:30:06 2008 From: epk at xs4all.nl (Eric Kluitenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:00:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] REGISTER NOW for the Economies of the Commons Conference, Amsterdam April 11 & 12 2008 Message-ID: Dear members of the Readers List, Please find the announce of the registration options for the Economies of the Commons conference, april 11 & 12 at De Balie in Amsterdam. We will also stream this event live on the internet and make it available in the streaming archive as wel as for download after the conference. Since the digital commons is a recurrent topic on this list I am keeping you informed about the program as it reaches its final shape. best wishes, Eric -------------------------------- Conference Economies of the Commons 11 & 12 april 2008 – REGISTER NOW! -------------------------------- Conference Economies of the Commons - Strategies for Sustainable Access and Creative Reuse of Images and Sounds Online - De Balie - Centre for Culture and Politics, Amsterdam, April 11 & 12, 2008 De Balie in Amsterdam and the Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision in Hilversum, in collaboration with Knowledgeland, Images for the Future, and Virtual Platform, organise a two-day international public working conference on the economies, sustainability, and opportunities for creative reuse of these public audiovisual resources and archives. www.ecommons.eu -------------------------------- REGISTRATION AND TICKETS: Passepartout for April 11 & 12 (including evening programs): 25 euro Conference Day-ticket: 15 euro Public evening programs: 5 euro To reserve a place for the Economies of the Commons conference, please order your ticket on-line: www.debalie.nl/dossierartikel.jsp?dossierid=208416&articleid=215589 -------------------------------- Friday April 11 – Working conference day 1 and public events Location: De Balie, Centre for Culture and Politics, Amsterdam Time: 10 - 17.30 hrs 10.00: Opening / Welcome 10.30: Conference Keynote: Peter Kaufman: The Economics of Film and Video Distribution in the Digital Age 11.30: Panel 1: Audiovisual Archives 13.00: Lunch break 14.00: Panel 2: Commons-based Peer Production 15.30: Coffee break 15.45: Panel 3: European Digital Library 17.15: Wrap up first conference day -------------------------------- Evening Program: Economies of the Commons Public Keynotes & Responses Presented in collaboration with Images for the Future Location: De Balie, Centre for Culture and Politics, Amsterdam Date: Friday April 11, 2008 Time: 20.30 - 22.30 hrs Public Keynote 1: Rick Prelinger Public Keynote 2: David Bollier Panel discussion with Prelinger, Bollier and Representatives of Images of the Future consortium -------------------------------- Continuous: Screening block: Steal This Film / Good Copy, Bad Copy / Panorama Ephemera -------------------------------- Saturday April 12 - Working conference day 2 and public events Location: De Balie, Centre for Culture and Politics, Amsterdam Time: 11 - 18.00 hrs 11.00: Panel 4: Uncommon Business Models 12.30: Lunch Break 13.30: Panel 5: Intangible Cultural Heritage 15.00: Coffee Break 15.15: Panel 6: Professional Cultural Producers 16.45: Coffee Break 17.00: Report from the Legal Seminar on Intellectual Property Rights 17.30: Closing Session / Conference wrap up -------------------------------- Evening Program: Public screening, live cinema & performance program Presented in collaboration with Cinema De Balie Location: De Balie, Centre for Culture and Politics, Amsterdam Date: Saturday April 12, 2008 Time: 21.00 - 23.30 With: 2 short films by Peter Tscherkassky Narrated screening program by Rick Prelinger ‘Films on the mass media’ Commons based remix music / sound performances Nicholas Proost - Gravity Other short films tba -------------------------------- Continuous: Screening block: Steal This Film / Good Copy, Bad Copy / Panorama Ephemera -------------------------------- About Economies of the Commons De Balie in Amsterdam and the Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision in Hilversum, in collaboration with Knowledgeland, Images for the Future, and Virtual Platform, organise a two-day international public working conference on the economies, sustainability, and opportunities for creative reuse of these public audiovisual resources and archives. The Economies of the Commons conference will focus on three core issues: strategies for sustainability, new modes of value creation, and the potentials for creative reuse around the digital commons. Our main questions are: - What kinds of strategies are available to facilitate the growth of these emerging public knowledge resources, and guarantee their longer- term sustainability? - How is value created around the emerging digital commons, and how can this value be capitalised on for the public good? - How can these resources be activated as a creative productive force for contemporary culture, and how can the reuse of these enormously rich resources be facilitated and stimulated? The conference brings together a highly international group of specialists, including Peter Kaufman (Intelligent Television), Rick Prelinger (Prelinger Archives), Roei Amit (INA), Kenneth Goldsmith (UbuWeb), Anthony McCann (Hallam University), Hubert Best (Best & Soames / FOCAL), Lucie Guibault (University of Amsterdam), Florian Schneider (Kein.tv) David Bollier (On The Commons), and many others. The Economies of the Commons conference addresses a range of target groups that do not regularly meet each other. These include: (broadcast) media professionals, representatives from cultural heritage organisations, internet entrepreneurs, ethnomusicologists, musicians and representatives of the music industry, media activists, researchers in the domains of internet law, economy, information science, p2p file sharing activists, policy makers, and professionals from the field of art and culture. A web dossier has been set up that provides further information on the conference program and side events, program updates, and information on speakers and highlighted case studies, as well as general background and research materials. This dossier can be found at: www.ecommons.eu --------------------- Seminar on Intellectual Property Rights - The Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision, Hilversum, April 10, 2008 About the Seminar on Audiovisual Archives and Intellectual Property Rights: A one-day seminar at the Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision in Hilversum, on Intellectual Property Rights issues in the digital audiovisual domain, precedes the conference on Thursday April 10, the results of which will feed into the conference program. Seminar April 10: Admission free (capacity is limited, advance reservation is strongly recommended!) For any other enquiry about the program, please send an e-mail to: erick at balie.nl From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 22:48:34 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:18:34 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Brian Palmer @ Dhaka University Message-ID: Dear all, for those who know Brian P's work, he is in Dhaka now working on a short doc. He will give a talk tomorrow. ######### You are cordially invited to attend a discussion on "Notes from Occupation: War and Ethics of Journalism," with Brian Palmer as the keynote speaker. Please note that this is to be held tomorrow 11 March, 2008 (Tuesday), at 1:30pm in R.C. Majumder Auditorium (Ground Floor, Lecture Theatre, behind Arts Building, University of Dhaka). Brian Palmer is an independent journalist and filmmaker based in Brooklyn, New York. Palmer is now in post-production stage of his first film, Full Disclosure: A Reporter¹s Journey Toward Truth in Iraq, a feature-length documentary based on his three trips to Iraq with the same US Marine combat unit. He recently received a Ford Foundation grant to complete the film and conduct educational outreach. Palmer has written for Mother Jones, Newsday, The Huffington Post, Pixel Press, Newsweek International, The New York Times Magazine, among others. His photographs have appeared in The New York Times, The Baltimore Sun, ColorLines (a publication of the Applied Research Center), US News & World Report, Politiken (Copenhagen) and other publications. From 2000 to 2002 Palmer was an on-air correspondent with CNN. He was a staff writer at Fortune from 1998 to 2000, and Beijing Bureau Chief for USNews & World Report for the two years prior to that. From 1993 to 1996, he was a Staff Photographer for US News, and he continues to work as a still photographer. (His work is online at www.bxpnyc.com .) From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 13:07:27 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:07:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: References: <4fcaee300803042211g7d0fbaf3t621ac77c27b9e039@mail.gmail.com> <005301c88201$7f7e4920$6400a8c0@taraprakash> <6b79f1a70803092146k58aef51g7a88b339728d8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803100037s46a614c9k100779fdc63ada42@mail.gmail.com> Asit, Kindly send a single mail at a time. Your one mail after other in a chain that too one liners are too bugging and don't make an e-mail sense. Hope you understand. Regards On 3/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > class caste and gender difference is a lived reality in india one > doesnt need a specialist knowledge to know this common truth and > common sense this applies to kashmir also > asit > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Asit asitreds > wrote: > > well is a universal reality this a very common knowledge and commonsense > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > Asit , > > > > > > Before you speak more on Kashmir and compare why Moti Lal Nehru sent > Jawahar > > > Abroad for education , you should be atleast aware when that family > migrated > > > out of Kashmir. > > > > > > Talk on subject where you have enough knowledge , else you make > people > > > laugh. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/10/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal > capacities > > > > how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr > > > > significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every > > > > kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason > is > > > > simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is > it > > > > so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this > > > > possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me > > > > only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving > > > > exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this > > > > has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last > > > > query > > > > who has the copy right to speak about kashmir > > > > asit > > > > > > > > On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > > > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of > > > students' > > > > > revolt in France. > > > > > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a > clean > > > chit by > > > > > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely > oppressed > > > by > > > > > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been > attacked for > > > not > > > > > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri > culture. > > > The > > > > > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for > not > > > > > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists > and > > > > > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by > > > non-state > > > > > agents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Asit asitreds" > > > > > To: "Wali Arifi" > > > > > Cc: "reader-list" > > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is > > > brilliant > > > > > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt > take a > > > > > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in > 1968 > > > > > > its important from which position you are speaking from the > side of > > > > > > oppressed or the opressor > > > > > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > > > > > irresponsible nuetrality > > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > > > > > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's > review > > > of > > > > > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest > Democracy > > > > > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > > > > > >> > > > > > >> by Sanjay Kak > > > > > >> * > > > > > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, > and his > > > > > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from > the > > > more > > > > > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new > book > > > India > > > > > >> after > > > > > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: > from > > > it's > > > > > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the > World's > > > > > >> Largest > > > > > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's > end > > > > > >> papers, > > > > > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in > retrospect to > > > > > >> have > > > > > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things > in India > > > > > >> (after > > > > > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he > agrees, > > > but > > > > > >> for > > > > > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic > actor Johny > > > > > >> Walker > > > > > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a > modern > > > > > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 > years of > > > the > > > > > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign > of > > > things > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> come. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The > Historian > > > > > >> arrives > > > > > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The > first is > > > that > > > > > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of > this > > > > > >> republic > > > > > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and > > > 'victory', > > > > > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other > time or > > > place > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly > > > diverse, so > > > > > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and > literature, > > > or > > > > > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the > > > media". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India > all the > > > way > > > > > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, > > > Nagaland, > > > > > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head > of a > > > very > > > > > >> long > > > > > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the > Indian > > > nation > > > > > >> has > > > > > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone > dealing or > > > > > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because > justice has > > > not > > > > > >> even > > > > > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real > success > > > > > >> story > > > > > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in > that of > > > > > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for > approval, > > > but > > > > > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, > in the > > > > > >> main, > > > > > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary > politics. > > > From > > > > > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative > > > prediction > > > > > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since > India has > > > had > > > > > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's > > > democracy. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian > elections for > > > which > > > > > >> he > > > > > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election > since > > > 1951 is > > > > > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no > longer > > > are > > > > > >> a > > > > > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian > life, a > > > > > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five > years". As > > > > > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and > accounts of > > > > > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the > logistics are > > > > > >> offered > > > > > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with > > > forty-three > > > > > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink > and > > > > > >> sealing > > > > > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than > were > > > > > >> needed…". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be > preoccupied > > > > > >> with > > > > > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of > democracy, > > > and > > > > > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a > mistake > > > any > > > > > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with > > > parliamentary > > > > > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all > bias, also > > > > > >> means > > > > > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain > here > > > focused > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in > Parliamentary > > > > > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental > > > questions > > > > > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the > Naxalites > > > in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the > 1970s, > > > or > > > > > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to > lose > > > his > > > > > >> way, > > > > > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in > methodology, > > > and > > > > > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > > > > > >> retrospective > > > > > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in > terms of > > > what > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites > for > > > this is > > > > > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: > by > > > training > > > > > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have > "restricted > > > > > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this > > > ascribed > > > > > >> lack > > > > > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for > > > 'primary' > > > > > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > > > > > >> unchallenged > > > > > >> – canvas. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception > of > > > some > > > > > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN > Haksar > > > papers) > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at > least > > > two > > > > > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious > Notes at > > > the > > > > > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to > be so. > > > With > > > > > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni > Kothari, > > > > > >> Tanika > > > > > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot > (amongst > > > > > >> others), > > > > > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one > that this > > > book > > > > > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of > his > > > > > >> dexterous > > > > > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper > columns > > > have > > > > > >> been > > > > > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. > Here too > > > he > > > > > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want > returned to > > > the > > > > > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a > group > > > of > > > > > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of > the > > > positive > > > > > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the > distinction > > > > > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's > significance > > > from > > > > > >> a > > > > > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National > Front > > > rebels > > > > > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the > strafing of > > > > > >> Lungleh > > > > > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used > by the > > > > > >> Indian > > > > > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > > > > > >> businessman, > > > > > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark > days of > > > the > > > > > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that > 'The > > > > > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with > embarrassingly > > > > > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve > view > > > that > > > > > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the > time of > > > > > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an > official > > > > > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the > same > > > > > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of > simple > > > games, > > > > > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't > doubt > > > that > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within > the > > > > > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to > > > encounter, > > > > > >> he > > > > > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – > and even > > > > > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The > > > peasant > > > > > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – > acceptance of > > > what > > > > > >> is > > > > > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. > "Living > > > away > > > > > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm > labourer > > > from > > > > > >> UP > > > > > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the > city's > > > > > >> museums, > > > > > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt > true > > > for > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of > the > > > > > >> processes > > > > > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the > journey > > > > > >> from > > > > > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And > where did > > > > > >> that > > > > > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile > mills > > > began to > > > > > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, > "for 150 > > > > > >> miles > > > > > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along > the > > > great > > > > > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its > own > > > terms, > > > > > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating > oxygen > > > of > > > > > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its > consequences, for > > > both > > > > > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement > 50 years > > > on) > > > > > >> or > > > > > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects > of the > > > > > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green > > > Revolution'.) > > > > > >> At > > > > > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are > rifling > > > through > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the > excessive – > > > and > > > > > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > > > > > >> convincing. > > > > > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an > issue > > > or > > > > > >> event > > > > > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the > errors > > > and > > > > > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the > thought of > > > some > > > > > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and > the > > > Indian > > > > > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India > in > > > 2007? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is > peppered > > > > > >> with > > > > > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published > out of > > > > > >> Delhi. > > > > > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such > > > narratives > > > > > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, > unless > > > we > > > > > >> can > > > > > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and > > > understand > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are > simply > > > left > > > > > >> with > > > > > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal > Bahadur > > > > > >> Shastri, > > > > > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal > by the > > > > > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a > condescending > > > > > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine > Shastri > > > has > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we > live in!" > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and > his > > > > > >> distaste > > > > > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most > clearly in > > > his > > > > > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: > RK > > > Patil, a > > > > > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of > Satyagraha > > > and > > > > > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding > the > > > > > >> dismissal > > > > > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation > is both > > > > > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the > opinions of > > > the > > > > > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass > > > movement > > > > > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And > finally, > > > > > >> Indira > > > > > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who > would have > > > > > >> been > > > > > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set > of > > > > > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able > to pin > > > the > > > > > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the > honours > > > for > > > > > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared > between > > > Indira > > > > > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the > bricks > > > and > > > > > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 > through to > > > > > >> 1987. > > > > > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving > from > > > > > >> 'history' > > > > > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites > the > > > > > >> thirty-year > > > > > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one > also needs > > > a > > > > > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one > can > > > place > > > > > >> those > > > > > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the > din > > > and > > > > > >> clamour of the present". > > > > > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' > is at > > > once > > > > > >> too > > > > > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the > section > > > from > > > > > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history > > > actually > > > > > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us > for some > > > > > >> things: > > > > > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi > Ram-Mayawati > > > and > > > > > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > > > > > >> International > > > > > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on > the > > > horizon > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, > and the > > > > > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out > too, > > > and > > > > > >> then > > > > > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it > carries > > > become > > > > > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book > listing of > > > > > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter > called > > > > > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by > sections > > > called > > > > > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us > through > > > Caste, > > > > > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on > the > > > conflicts > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there > is > > > also > > > > > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with > "there > > > was > > > > > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the > women's > > > > > >> movement > > > > > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's > rights > > > (or > > > > > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, > much of > > > it > > > > > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old > history of > > > the > > > > > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha > Patkar", who > > > we > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… > to > > > demand > > > > > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The > leader > > > > > >> herself > > > > > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the > sufferings of > > > her > > > > > >> flock". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance > movement, > > > engaged > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent > history, > > > and > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without > prejudice to > > > either > > > > > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never > even > > > make > > > > > >> it > > > > > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written > in the > > > > > >> 21st > > > > > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the > hundreds > > > of > > > > > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in > the front > > > > > >> ranks > > > > > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN > Pannikar's > > > > > >> opinions > > > > > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always > had a > > > > > >> curious > > > > > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his > own > > > > > >> unseemly > > > > > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few > > > exceptions, > > > > > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in > the > > > first > > > > > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of > power, > > > from > > > > > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is > symptomatic, > > > this > > > > > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and > powerless, > > > and > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from > illuminating our > > > > > >> times. > > > > > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically > > > informed > > > > > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad > Yadav, > > > and > > > > > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the > Narmada > > > Bachao > > > > > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made > their > > > > > >> movement > > > > > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not > in the > > > > > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate > in which > > > the > > > > > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what > are > > > your > > > > > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of > the > > > India > > > > > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they > going > > > to go > > > > > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar > (and > > > > > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from > 1947 to > > > > > >> 1987? > > > > > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to > understand > > > the > > > > > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do > that, > > > The > > > > > >> History of the World's Largest Democracy – like the Indian > State – > > > will > > > > > >> continually be surprised by the events and consequences of the > day to > > > day > > > > > >> history of the little in this country. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In the past, however arguable his ideas, Guhas' prose has been > highly > > > > > >> readable. But here, hobbled by some Herculean compulsions to > be > > > > > >> comprehensive, to reduce everything down to the manageable > scale of > > > one > > > > > >> grand narrative, ambition eventually does damage to his book. > > > Impatient > > > > > >> with > > > > > >> the increasingly workmanlike narrative, but determined to see > it to > > > it's > > > > > >> end, I found myself drifting into marginalia: for example > Guha's > > > peculiar > > > > > >> obsession with certain kinds of academic pedigree. Jawaharlal > Nehru > > > was > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> course a "student at Cambridge", and so was the "Cambridge > educated > > > > > >> physicist" Homi Bhabha. Krishna Menon and P N Haksar are > identically > > > > > >> "educated at the London School of Economics". P C Mahalanobis > is "a > > > > > >> Cambridge-trained physicist and statistician, Saif Tyabji too > is "an > > > > > >> engineer educated at Cambridge", and of course, Manmohan Singh > has > > > > > >> "written > > > > > >> a Oxford D Phil thesis". I'm then curious as to the reasons > why the > > > same > > > > > >> insight is not provided to us for Acharya Kriplani, Ram > Manohar > > > Lohia, > > > > > >> Shiekh Abdullah, Zakir Hussain; or for Indira Gandhi, Kanshi > Ram, > > > > > >> Mayawati, > > > > > >> or even Medha Patkar? Of course, BR Ambedkar makes it, because > he has > > > > > >> "doctorates from Columbia and London University". Jagjiwan Ram > > > scrapes > > > > > >> through because he is the first Harijan from his village to go > to > > > High > > > > > >> School, and then onto Benares Hindu University. (Equal > Opportunity in > > > the > > > > > >> New Republic!) Kamaraj doesn't, but he does get a fuller > description: > > > "K > > > > > >> Kamaraj… born in a low-caste family in the Tamil country… was > a > > > thick-set > > > > > >> man with a white mustache… he looked like a cross between > Sonny > > > Liston > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> the Walrus". I looked in vain for an equally entertaining > description > > > of > > > > > >> former President APJ Abdul Kalam. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> If these obsessions with pedigree were the only things > impeding my > > > > > >> reading > > > > > >> of the book, there would be little to worry about. But armed > with the > > > > > >> dangerous licence of 'historically informed journalism' for > the > > > crucial > > > > > >> last > > > > > >> two decades of his book, he seems at liberty to comment > without even > > > the > > > > > >> minimum disciplines of 'history'. To take one example, he > draws > > > together > > > > > >> what he thinks of as "the two critical events that… defined > the epoch > > > of > > > > > >> competitive fundamentalisms: the destruction of the Babri > Masjid and > > > the > > > > > >> exodus of the Kashmiri Pandits" (from Kashmir). He then goes > on to > > > make > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> astonishing comment: "Would one trust a state that could not > honour > > > its > > > > > >> commitment to protect an ancient place of worship? Would one > trust a > > > > > >> community that so brutally expelled those of a different > faith?" > > > Neither > > > > > >> needs to be established, both are stated as a priori facts. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> He sees a striking similarity between the two pogroms he > acknowledges > > > in > > > > > >> independent India: that directed at the Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 > and at > > > the > > > > > >> Muslims of south Gujarat in 2002. "Both began as a response to > a > > > single, > > > > > >> stray act of violence committed by members of the minority > community. > > > > > >> Both > > > > > >> proceeded to take a generalized revenge on the minorities as a > > > whole". > > > > > >> Guha > > > > > >> is careful to quickly wipe his sleeve, and draw attention to > the > > > > > >> innocence > > > > > >> of the victims, but I do wish he had shared with us what was > the > > > "single, > > > > > >> stray act of violence" committed by minority Muslims in > Gujarat? > > > After > > > > > >> all, > > > > > >> the jury on the terrible burning of the train in Godhra is > still out, > > > is > > > > > >> it > > > > > >> not? > > > > > >> At another point he describes the protests against the > acquisition of > > > > > >> land > > > > > >> by the Tatas in Kalinganagar, Orissa, where in the first week > of > > > 2006, "a > > > > > >> group of tribals demolished the boundary wall provoking the > police to > > > > > >> open > > > > > >> fire. The tribals placed the bodies of these martyrs on the > highway > > > and > > > > > >> held > > > > > >> up traffic for a week ". How does he establish who was > provoking > > > whom, > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> how? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Or what can explain his saying, about the aftermath of Sant > Harchand > > > > > >> Singh > > > > > >> Longowals' killing, in Punjab in 1988: "The sant's > assassination was > > > a > > > > > >> harbinger of things to come with a new generation of > terrorists > > > taking up > > > > > >> the struggle for Khalistan". I carefully looked over at least > a dozen > > > > > >> references to the troubles in the Punjab in his book, there > are never > > > > > >> Militants, always "Terrorists". > > > > > >> The point of bringing together these instances is simply to > underline > > > the > > > > > >> inherently establishment nature of the positions taken by > Ramachandra > > > > > >> Guha's > > > > > >> History. This sometimes leads him to places the intelligent > reporter > > > – > > > > > >> leave > > > > > >> alone the historian – would not want to be stuck in. About the > early > > > > > >> 1990s > > > > > >> in Kashmir he says: "As the valley came to resemble a zone of > > > occupation, > > > > > >> popular sentiment rallied to the jihadi cause. Terrorists > mingled > > > easily > > > > > >> with the locals, and were given refuge beforeor after their > actions". > > > > > >> Once > > > > > >> again: hugely contested words like 'Jehadi' and 'Terrorist', > which > > > > > >> scholars > > > > > >> the world over are cracking their brains over, slip off like > the > > > slipshod > > > > > >> words of television anchors. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> And finally, on the difficulties of nurturing secularism in > India in > > > the > > > > > >> aftermath of Partition, Guha says: "The creation of an Islamic > state > > > on > > > > > >> India's borders was a provocation to those Hindus who > themselves > > > wished > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> merge faith with state". Does one need to repeat here that the > RSS, > > > with > > > > > >> its > > > > > >> fascist ideology borrowed directly from Mussolini, and it's > ideal of > > > a > > > > > >> Hindu-rashtra, was set up in 1925, and long preceded the idea > of the > > > > > >> Islamic > > > > > >> State of Pakistan. But Guha dives in head first: "My own view > – > > > speaking > > > > > >> as > > > > > >> a historian rather than citizen – is that as long as Pakistan > exists > > > > > >> there > > > > > >> will be Hindu fundamentalists in India". Can such a completely > > > ahistoric > > > > > >> assertion make its place into a history? And then remain > unchallenged > > > by > > > > > >> historians, commentators and reviewers in the India of 2007? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Incredibly, in the last few pages of the book, Guha does admit > that > > > only > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> three-quarters of the "total land mass claimed by the Indian > nation" > > > does > > > > > >> the elected government enjoy a legitimacy of power and > authority, and > > > > > >> only > > > > > >> here do they feel themselves to be part of a single nation. > How then > > > does > > > > > >> this admission that in a quarter of the World's Largest > Democracy > > > people > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> substantially alienated from the Nation sit with his > insistence on > > > > > >> phiphty-phiphty? At what point will our historians ring the > alarm > > > bells? > > > > > >> When Half the nation is holding the Other Half by force? When > it > > > really > > > > > >> reaches fifty-fifty? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> From the books' well-publicised entry into the world we learn > that > > > the > > > > > >> author has spent the last eight years working on it. I too > seem to > > > have > > > > > >> coincidentally spent the same years ruminating on the World's > Largest > > > > > >> Democracy, not as a historian, but as a film-maker, and not > with the > > > > > >> grand > > > > > >> purpose of this book for certain, but just fishing in it's > troubled > > > > > >> margins: > > > > > >> first in the Narmada valley, and then in Kashmir. Like many > others > > > who > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> somewhat bewildered at events around us, and have failed to > join in > > > the > > > > > >> celebration of democracy this August, the book is an important > > > marker. It > > > > > >> demands to be read seriously, and it's flaws and omissions ask > to be > > > > > >> taken > > > > > >> seriously by us. Because, in our tumultuous times, when change > is > > > fast > > > > > >> forcing all of us to choose sides, fifty-fifty has to be seen > as too > > > > > >> cautious an answer, so safe as to translate into an almost > > > mathematically > > > > > >> calibrated cowardice. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> What then does the book represent? It's timed for the > celebrations of > > > the > > > > > >> 60th year of Indian Independence, and arrives amidst the giddy > > > hosannas > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> India's success as a democracy, and our newly unfolding status > as an > > > > > >> emerging economic power. The recent enthusiasm to burnish our > > > 'shining' > > > > > >> democracy is, as we all know, tightly tied in with the desire > to set > > > > > >> India > > > > > >> up as a next destination of global capital. (Essentially, > India 1, > > > China > > > > > >> 0). > > > > > >> So the grinding poverty, the dispossession, the cruelty and > > > oppression > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> made charming, and discord and chaos is turned into a tribute > to our > > > > > >> democratic credentials. For all the book's sophistry then, > > > Ramachandra > > > > > >> Guha > > > > > >> emerges as the chronicler of India Shining. In this season > where we > > > > > >> celebrate Indian democracy, surely a reassuring book to pass > on to > > > CEOs > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> investors at the next Davos. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> (*Sanjay Kak is an independent documentary film-maker, whose > recent > > > film > > > > > >> Jashn-e-Azadi (How we celebrate freedom) is about the idea of > freedom > > > in > > > > > >> Kashmir, and the degrees of freedom in India*.) > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 13:44:06 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:44:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Killer at India Today Conclave Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803110114g76b0b2fdxc96461aec15a6bcb@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: XXXXXXX Date: Mar 10, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: killer at India Today Conclave To: Undisclosed _____________________________ Dear Mr. Purie, I know you are a busy person for whom every moment is very precious. I, therefore, seek to be excused for this intrusion. However, I am taking this liberty as I know you as one of the ardent believers in freedom of expression. I trust you will appreciate the compulsion behind addressing this communication to you. I also believe you will empathize me as the issue being raised below by me is a concern confronting the displaced Kashmiri Pandit community. It also raises a sensitive question of our treatment of the people who openly wage war against the continuity of India as a nation. Mr. Purie, it can be stated, without any fear of contradiction, that India Today has been instrumental in shaping the life of not only a whole generation but has significantly contributed towards what India is today. Millions of people in India have grown reading India Today and are indebted to it for shaping their intellect. As college students, many of my friends got hooked to the magazine for the temptation of seeing the special photograph of some beautiful model that India Today initially published as a dedicated column. Latter on when the magazine decided to stop publishing the photograph, we found despite the missing attraction, the magazine had become an addiction. For most of us and hundreds of thousands of other Indians, this obsession has continued to remain an integral part of our lives. And I am really glad for that and trust so will be all others who look forward to India Today for a weekly dose of information, entertainment and intellectual stimulation. India Today readers have always looked at it as a load star, which guides the people by presenting dispassionate critiques of the unfolding events week after week. People also hold the India Today group in high esteem for its innovative forays in to music, publication, and electronic media and above all for its highly stimulating annual conclaves. Most of us have always admired India Today for consistently bringing together some of the sharpest brains and achievers who through their individual contributions have made tremendous difference in the lives of millions of people. I need to compliment you once again for your vision of selecting some of the world's great achievers for the forth coming India Today Conclave. Most of the selected panelists are truly visionaries with capabilities of affecting very positive changes in the society through the execution of their dreams. However, your selection of Yaseen Malik as on of the youth icons who can make a difference is simply baffling. I am sure this name must have shocked a vast number of your admirers. I would reckon the selection of Yaseen Malik as one of the panelists represents either a great goof up at India today or the naivety of its selectors. In either case, this reflects poorly on the institution known for its untiring fairness, fearless objectivity and tireless crusades. I don't have access to the old copies of India Today pertaining to the period when militancy, extremism and fundamentalism raised their ugly heads in Kashmir. But I recall during those dark days in Kashmir when all layers of social and state apparatus seemed to be under subversion, it was only India Today which brought us a true picture of the happenings around us. Please visit some of the early 1990 issues of India Today and you will find buried under the pages some of the boldest voices of those days. Wasn't it India Today, which suggested, "Govt. of India should seriously consider cutting off water and electricity supplies to mosques and other institutions in Kashmir that utilize their premises for launching anti-national activities?" And if you dig a little further in your archives, you will find that much before Hizbul Mujahideen, All Umar, Jihadi Council, Harkat ul Ansaar, Al Qaeeda and many other dreadful militant organizations came into existence, JKLF had already wrought havoc in Kashmir and had even forced an entire Kashmiri Pandit population to flee their ancestral home land. I am sure India Today hasn't forgotten the connection between Yaseen Malik and JKLF. I know it is like showing candle to the sun, but I need to remind you about pending TADA cases against Malik. As an institution, which brought about a paradigm shift in the way Indians analyzed the socio-political events and as magazine that takes pride in tracking down its old covers whenever it does a similar lead story, India Today can't have forgotten Malik's self admitted role in killing of four unarmed Indian Air Force personnel. It would also be aware of his role in Rubaiya Sayeed kidnapping. In your introduction Malik has been described as championing the return of displaced Kashmiri Pandits to their homeland. Nothing can be more preposterous than this suggestion. I am sorry to state; India today has insulted the sensitivity of hundreds and thousands of displaced Kashmiri Pandits by crediting the man singularly responsible for their exodus as their sympathizer. Knowing the reputation of India Today in being strictly objective about its stories, I would have expected you to employ your own editorial principles while writing about Malik. I would once again credit you for assembling a group of real visionaries for the forthcoming conclave. For them it is definitely an equal measure of honour to be addressing the conclave as the matter of prestige for you. Given the amount of reputation and prestige enjoyed by India Today, your participants would have blindly agreed to be the part of the event. By making them to share the stage with a person, who after Hitler, is perhaps the biggest killer of humanity, India Today will be making the conclave all the more eventful for these modern day icons. Your distinguished guests are an admirable group of achievers, who have attained iconic stature through their principles, honesty and hard work. They are the real loadstars to who the future generations will look for inspiration, guidance and motivation. Posterity will remember them for their immense contribution towards humanity. They have excelled in their respective fields while playing the game fair and square. Al Gore, Mukesh Ambani, Satguru Jagi, Sunil Mittal, Dr. Craig Venter and many others on your panel will be remembered by many generations for their contributions towards making our world a better place to live in. These eminent people have always let their concern for the society dictate their philosophy and actions. You have really pulled a coup by making these distinguished personalities share space with a person, who has exhibited a callous disregard for fellow citizens by presiding over the forceful exodus of an entire community. And that too for the reasons of faith and religion. Mr. Purie, I don't occupy a pedestal from where I can demand your withdrawal of invitation to Yaseen Malik. I can only leave that to your discretion. But, I am sure my entire displaced Kashmiri Pandit community and majority of Indians would feel insulted if Yaseen Malik is allowed to preach his hollowed principles and constructed ideology from the pedestals of the conclave. You may have your compulsions and external pressures in granting him such a privilege but please don't preach that Malik is concerned about the return of Pandits to their homeland. Nothing can be more fallacious and derogatory than this. I feel the forthcoming India Today Conclave is test of credibility for your institution. After all, it is you who has labeled a religious fundamentalist, a hardcore extremist and a perpetrator of genocide on an ethnic minority as a greatest leader. I don't understand if this is a weird joke or an indication of India Today's sense of judgment gone bizarre. Mr. Purie, as a patriotic Indian and as a small individual who has also contributed in making India Today what it is today, I demand an explanation. Regards, XXXXX *"Zuv Shum Braman Ghara Gassa Ha"* - ------------------------------ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Mar 10 13:24:15 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:54:15 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Naach, a documentary by Saba Dewan. Message-ID: <60B49847-54AF-44F7-BDB4-E8DCF4E9A9D7@sarai.net> You are cordially invited to the first screening of Naach, a documentary by Saba Dewan. Venue: Gulmohar Hall, India Habitat Centre, New Delhi Time: 7PM Date: Tuesday, 18 March, 2008 The Sonpur cattle fair in Bihar comes alive every evening when more than fifty girls take to the stage and dance to the latest bollywood songs. A barbed wire fence separates the girls from the spectators who are all men. It is a performance charged with sexual energy. The girls dance, make eye contact, beckon, gesticulate and even abuse a highly responsive audience. What meanings related to contemporary construction and practice of gender, sexuality, labour and popular culture can we read in the dance of these female performers? Director: Saba Dewan Camera: Rahul Roy Editing: Anupama Chandra Sound: Asheesh Pandya Duration: 84 mins Year: 2008 _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 14:12:01 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:12:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] *Rightist Fantasy of CPIM Media* Message-ID: <47D645D9.8000709@gmail.com> Deshabhimani Newspaper & kairali/People channels are calling Night Vigil in support of chengara dalit landstruggle as Masala/immoral+maoistic+naxalites+anarchist Deshabhimani Aloted Frontpage space, cartoons+ An article in fake name in editorial page to brand the struggle as immoral. kairali and people are repeadly telecasting hidden camera shooting The myths and fact sheet Distributed at pressmeet is available at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth/web/Chengar+Night+Vigil+Myths+and+Facts.pdf CPIM used to portry chengara Landstruggle as naxalite from its begining. This yellow journalism is a new attempt from cpim to stop the expanding middle class support for this struggle Todays deshabhimani carries a Report All india Democratic Womens Associatiation cleaned the night vigil place with brooms and cow dung. The CPIM women showed how brahmanic they are by taking broom and cowdung against dalits and people supporting dalit movements A dossier on chengara struggle is available at http://greenyouth.googlegroups.com/web/ChengaraDossier01.pdf This was yesterdays Press Release ------------------------------------------- *Rightist Fantasy of Party Media* * * ---------------------------------------- Deshabhimani news paper and Kairali Channel are propagating stories constructed by them about the night vigil supporting Chengara land struggle.This is part of their continuous false campaigns against Chengara struggle. About 50 individuals from different walks of life took part in the vigil. B.R.P.Bhaskar inaugurated . Nintey per centage of the participants were women. Deshabhimani and Kairaly alleges that they all were Naxalites and Anarchists [ simultaneously!!] It is quite evident that Party Media's intolerance resulted out of the embarrassment of Civil society's support to Chenagara struggle. They are further annoyed by the intiative of women. Through such reports they are exposing themselves to be the sole agents of anti women, anti dalit values . Its not media reporting but 'news construction'that Kairali is engaging in. We will fight it politically and legally. A state Level Solidarity Meeting supporting Chengara Struggle will be organized in Kozhikkode on 16^th this month.A video document as well as monograph on Chengara struggle will be released in it. We call upon all democratic forces to join hands in resisting the anti- Dalit anti -Women news campaigns by Party—Media syndicate Dileep Raj Gargi H Reshma Bharadwaj Hassan Ranjini Krishnan Reshma R Press Release of solidarity night vigil --------------------------------------------- Chengara Land struggle: Decision should be taken by the Government, not Court ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Solidarity Night Vigil supporting Chengara land struggle started in front of Thiruvananthapuram secretariat on March 7th evening 5 pm and ended at 7am in the morning on March 8th. About 50 people supporting the Chengara agitation participated in the vigil. Inaugurating the vigil B. R. P . Bhaskar stated that this is an historical human rights agitation. Ownership of land becomes the right to life for dalits and adivasis. Government is trying to tarnish this agitation by accusing that this is an agitation for land by those who own land. Such a blanket accusation of the struggle without any governmental enquiry is extremely unfortunate. What is important is deciding the relevance of the demands put forth by this struggle. The kerala society had long before agreed in principle to the right on land for those who work upon the land. O.P.Raveendran presided over the meeting. Sanni M .Kapikkad, Nalini Jameela, and CSJayachandran spoke. ---------------------------------------------------- Some background materials on chengara struggle http://www.infochangeindia.org/features461.jsp http://www.thesouthasian.org/archives/2007/chengara_land_struggle_in_kera.html http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/06/stories/2008020656020300.htm http://sanhati.com/articles/535/ From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 14:33:52 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:33:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] *Rightist Fantasy of CPIM Media* In-Reply-To: <47D645D9.8000709@gmail.com> References: <47D645D9.8000709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D64AF8.9030702@gmail.com> Anivar Aravind wrote: > Deshabhimani Newspaper & kairali/People channels are calling Night Vigil > in support of chengara dalit landstruggle as > Masala/immoral+maoistic+naxalites+anarchist > > Deshabhimani Aloted Frontpage space, cartoons+ An article in fake name > in editorial page to brand the struggle as immoral. > > kairali and people are repeadly telecasting hidden camera shooting > The myths and fact sheet Distributed at pressmeet is available at > http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth/web/Chengar+Night+Vigil+Myths+and+Facts.pdf Correction in link http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth/files > > > CPIM used to portry chengara Landstruggle as naxalite from its begining. > This yellow journalism is a new attempt from cpim to stop the expanding > middle class support for this struggle > > > Todays deshabhimani carries a Report All india Democratic Womens > Associatiation cleaned the night vigil place with brooms and cow dung. > > The CPIM women showed how brahmanic they are by taking broom and > cowdung against dalits and people supporting dalit movements > > A dossier on chengara struggle is available at > http://greenyouth.googlegroups.com/web/ChengaraDossier01.pdf > > > > > This was yesterdays Press Release > ------------------------------------------- > *Rightist Fantasy of Party Media* > * * > ---------------------------------------- > > Deshabhimani news paper and Kairali Channel are propagating stories > constructed by them about the night vigil supporting Chengara land > struggle.This is part of their continuous false campaigns against > Chengara struggle. > > About 50 individuals from different walks of life took part in the > vigil. B.R.P.Bhaskar inaugurated . > > Nintey per centage of the participants were women. Deshabhimani and > Kairaly alleges that they all were Naxalites and Anarchists [ > simultaneously!!] > > It is quite evident that Party Media's intolerance resulted out > of the embarrassment of > > Civil society's support to Chenagara struggle. They are further annoyed > by the intiative of women. Through such reports they are exposing > themselves to be the sole agents of anti women, anti dalit values . > > Its not media reporting but 'news construction'that Kairali is > engaging in. We will fight it politically and legally. > > A state Level Solidarity Meeting supporting Chengara Struggle will > be organized in Kozhikkode on 16^th this month.A video document as well > as monograph on Chengara struggle will be released in it. > > We call upon all democratic forces to join hands in resisting the > anti- Dalit anti -Women news campaigns by Party—Media syndicate > > > > Dileep Raj > Gargi H > Reshma Bharadwaj > Hassan > Ranjini Krishnan > Reshma R > > Press Release of solidarity night vigil > --------------------------------------------- > Chengara Land struggle: Decision should be taken by the Government, not > Court > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Solidarity Night Vigil supporting Chengara land struggle started in > front of Thiruvananthapuram secretariat on March 7th evening 5 pm and > ended at 7am in the morning on March 8th. About 50 people supporting the > Chengara agitation participated in the vigil. > > > > Inaugurating the vigil B. R. P . Bhaskar stated that this is an > historical human rights agitation. Ownership of land becomes the right > to life for dalits and adivasis. > > Government is trying to tarnish this agitation by accusing that this is > an agitation for land by those who own land. Such a blanket accusation > of the struggle without any governmental enquiry is extremely > unfortunate. What is important is deciding the relevance of the demands > put forth by this struggle. The kerala society had long before agreed in > principle to the right on land for those who work upon the land. > > > > O.P.Raveendran presided over the meeting. Sanni M .Kapikkad, Nalini > Jameela, and CSJayachandran spoke. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > Some background materials on chengara struggle > > http://www.infochangeindia.org/features461.jsp > http://www.thesouthasian.org/archives/2007/chengara_land_struggle_in_kera.html > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/06/stories/2008020656020300.htm > http://sanhati.com/articles/535/ > > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 23:09:13 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:09:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements Message-ID: <47D6C3C1.1080800@gmail.com> [There is a pattern in the assaults by CPIM on peoples movements in kerala as you can see in Adivasi Land struggle in Aralam and Chinnakkanal, Farmers struggles to save paddy fields in Muriyad and Erayamkudy Chengara struggle for land by the landless, and forced evictions in moolampally and moorkhan parambu for bigprojects. In all places CPIM tried to defame leaders and people calling them apolitical, naxalites, anarchists, anti people and development and lately immoral and sex racketeers. There is a need to faceup this threat to democratic space in kerala - Anivar] Rebellion In Red Fort Across Kerala, a dozen people’s struggles have erupted against the Left regime’s cosying up to industry and its repression of dissent. KA SHAJI reports http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Ne150308rebellion_in.asp Tehelka March 15th KA SHAJI Thiruvananthapuram HISTORY REPEATS itself as farce, so went Marx’s dictum. In Kerala, where his footsoldiers pulled off the first democratic win in the world, the Red party has turned against the people in a vicious somersault. Karivellur village in north Kerala has seen an arc of history come full circle. On December 22, 1946, the British regime’s police had gunned down Communist activists who were preventing the local ruler from seizing the farmers’ produce. In February this year, a farmer in the village sent a bagful of rice seeds to agitating farmers in Erayamkudy in the south as a mark of solidarity. The Erayamkudy farmers were trying to rescue their farms from real estate mafia and a number of big industrial units manufacturing clay bricks for construction work. The LDF government had persistently dismissed the farmers’ pleas against leasing out rice fields and the backwater region to brick manufacturing sand mining units. Rice seeds were one of the Erayamkudy farmers’s demands from the government, and farmer Veluthambu sent his share in the face of threats from local CPM men. His dispatch got rousing receptions at almost all the railway stations en route. In Erayamkudy, noted Malayalam writers Sugathakumari, Sarah Joseph, P. Surendran and KG Sankara Pillai helped farmers in sowing Veluthambu’s seeds. In November last year, around 3,500 families in Erayamkudi had begun protesting against the brick manufacturing units in the area. The units were not only ruining the rice fields but also polluting the air and water. To the utter shock of the locals, the CPM and its government took the units’ side. When the agitation began receiving support even from Communist citadels like Karivellur, the CPM turned furious. It accused the protestors of having Maoist links. On Republic Day this January, the police raided the house of C. Jayasree, a leader of the agitation, to search for the laptop of Mallaraja Reddy, a Maoist leader in Andhra Pradesh who was arrested in Kerala in December. But the search proved vain, and the incident infuriated civil society across the state. “What wrong has that lady done? She is doing what the organised Left should do. Such struggles are inevitable in today’s India,’’ says eminent jurist VR Krishna Iyer, who was a minister in the first EMS Namboodiripad Communist government in Kerala. Erayamkudy is not an isolated flashpoint. At least a dozen people’s struggles are being waged in different parts of Kerala where the CPM is cast as the proverbial “class enemy”. What is also distinct about the struggles is that the involvement of NGOs is marginal. Leaders like Jayasree come from families of traditional Left supporters and are not anti-Marx in their beliefs. A reason why the CPM has branded them as Maoists. IN THE heart of Kochi, a few yards from the High Court, a land struggle is being fought by 40 families evicted from Moolampally village to make way for the proposed multicrore Vallarpadom Container Terminal. The families were forced out of their homes in the dead of night when they refused the compensation offered to them. “We are not against the terminal, but we demanded proper rehabilitation and tax exemption for the compensation package. But the government action was vengeful,” says Francis Kulathingal, the leader of the agitation. Chief Minister VS Achuthanandan called the agitation a handiwork of Naxalites but retracted the statement the very next day after civil society groups rose in outrage. “You can ensure road and rail connectivity to Vallarpadam terminal without evicting any of Moolampally’s residents. Revival of the old rail link to the defunct Ernakulam Rail Good Yard was suggested as one alternative. It needed no acquisition and the expenses were also lesser,” says CR Neelakantan, a social worker who is participating in the struggle. “But the government evicted the poorer farmers who owned about three cents of land. The old rail link was not considered because it passes through an area owned by Hindustan Lever where the company is planning to build posh apartments and villas.’’ Valanthakkadu is another hub of public anger against the LDF’s development agenda. Located two kilometres from Moolampally, the entire Valanthakad island is being sold off to a Bangalore-based real estate developer for a multi-crore “knowledge city”. Around 40 families of Dalits have been evicted and several hectares of mangrove forests razed. Farmers at Mooriyad in Thrissur began an agitation last year to protect about 11,100 acres of rice fields from brick makers, sand mining mafia and tile factories by holding portraits of Ayyankali, a Dalit social reformer of the early 20th century. The CPM cadre retaliated by damaging Ayyankali’s portraits. “With the CPM’s support, the mafia has already ruined 4,000 acres of rice fields,” says Varghese Thoduparambil, leader of the farmers’ front there. The strong resistance in Chakkamkandam village against the setting up of the Guruvayur temple town’s sewage treatment plant in their locality, the tribal uprising in Aralam in Kannur demanding distribution of land of a loss-making public sector unit among landless tribals, the struggle by Dalits in Chengara near Pathanamthitta demanding the ousting of a powerful plantation group from government land after the lease period was over, movements against illegal clay mining in Mangalapuram in Thiruvananthapuram and in Kollam, the struggle against a proposed hydel electric project at Athirapally – such resistances are fast eroding the CPM’s mass base. “Farmers were committing suicide in Wayanad because of debt. The CPM only shed crocodile tears,’’ says AC varkey, leader of the Farmers’ Relief Forum in Wayanad, a district that has competed with Vidharbha and Anantapur for headline space in news media for “farmers’ suicides”. According to social activist R. Ajayan, the Plachimada struggle against Coca Cola and the Kasargod struggle against pesticide giant Endosulphan were inspirational. Coca Cola was left trying to convert its bottling plant into a mango juice production centre, and Endosulphan has been banned in the state. Similarly, even though cases are still pending against about 300 activists, a polluting pig breeding centre at Kainoor in Thrissur has been shut down. The agitation against illegal bauxite mining in Kasargod is also gaining in strength. But the CPM continues to be one-eyed. In December last year, its cadre in Chinnakanal in Idukki grabbed government land occupied by landless tribals at the behest of the tourism lobby. WRITER’S E-MAIL shaji at tehelka.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 00:48:30 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 00:48:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Let us not squander this moment (The NEWS) In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660803111138t102733aer41d9518a6eb0a2f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660803111138t102733aer41d9518a6eb0a2f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70803111218k3e1ed347m39e3e3a3f73d05b5@mail.gmail.com> Let us not squander this moment (The NEWS) Thursday, March 06, 2008 Raza Rumi The prophets of doom are back in business. As the euphoria following the February 18 election subsides, there are more and more predictions, displays of that typical thick wall of cynicism that shapes, or at least influences, the public discourse in Pakistan. This is the third moment in our recent history when the media gurus, the doyens of public opinion in the independent, apolitical quarters are singing a familiar tune. The byline of this ungraceful song is: these politicians are incapable of resolving their differences and even if they work together for the immediate removal of the president, they will resort to their old tricks and confrontations. No one is even mentioning that some other powerful and invisible quarters may already be resorting to the old governance paradigm: give the dogs a bad name and then hang them. In 1988, the 'moment' for the lack of a better term, frittered away at the altar of confrontational politics and the creation of tussles entailing Punjab versus the federation, patriotism versus security risk (read the late Benazir Bhutto) and corruption narratives. The media, the technocrats and the apolitical urban middle class accepted this storyline only to see the whole system crashing in 1999 -- the second key moment in this argument. The 1999 upheaval was peculiar not just that a wide section of ostensibly democratic sections welcomed the coup but also lent a helping hand to the project of eliminating 'bad' and dirty politics. There were voices of protest as the corrupt and bickering politicians needed to be held accountable and the Augean stables of political process required cleansing. The rest is history as one after the other all the middle class ambitions were given up, or distorted to an extent that accountability, corruption and real democracy became more than sardonic jokes under the Gujrat syndicate backed by showcased prime ministers and turncoats. By early 2007, this cleansing and re-engineering project had outlived its utility for effective domestic governance, and for fulfilling the imperatives of a frontline, (or a client), state. Hence the negotiation with the largest political party commenced against several odds. And, the biggest challenge to this course of transition emerged not from the establishment even though there was no shortage of detractors there. The loudest proponents of the "sell out" theory were precisely the forces that legitimized the 1999 coup and gave it the political, constitutional legitimacy. And, the new phase of distrust on corrupt politicians ensued. Mian Nawaz Sharif had to face a similar fate when he entered the electoral arena and appeared to be playing the 'game'. It was Benazir's tragic death that has somewhat halted her constant media trial. Since 2007, the refreshing difference to the old script is the lawyers' movement; and the urban consensus on the independence of the judiciary. The principled conduct of now deposed judges has given impetus to this movement as without the 60 odd resignations this stage would not have arrived. To give due credit to the leadership of the lawyers had been struggling against the constitutional deviations much before 2007. But the events of March 2007 provided a centripetal push towards the office of the chief justice. The leadership of the lawyers has yet again proved its mettle in the present uncertainty of political winds. Flexibility, central to the success of a movement, has been displayed by Mr Aitzaz Ahsan who has called off the long march to Islamabad given that the new assembly has not even sworn in. However, the bulk of hitherto disengaged, and now politically energised sections of the middle class view the lawyers' movement as an alternative or even a replacement for mainstream politics. This is not a deliberate act; perhaps it echoes the frustration of the 1990s decade, the dynastic and familial control over party leaderships that apparently excludes the increasingly articulate and professionally sound middle classes whose number ironically have grown under Musharraf's Pakistan. Now the third moment has arrived. The actors are the same, the configurations have changed. There is a shared sense of regret; and a commitment reflected in the ambitious Charter of Democracy. Yes, the challenges have grown and so has the responsibility of the non-state actors to let this phase move in a direction that we have longed for but not really experienced. This is why the cacophony of the television talk shows and pessimism of opinion mongers is unsettling. The TV hosts echoing the middle class voice raise the same questions again and again. The PML and the PPP are being grilled on their past record completely ignoring the decade when they were out in the dock and demonized to the hilt. For those who expect miracles must realise one clear imperative. Bourgeois democracy is not about revolutions or structural transformations. Reform is a long process that can take decades like the experience in India where the Dalits have entered the mainstream with a strong voice after decades of participation. Constitutional democracy in Pakistan overshadowed by the baggage of authoritarianism will need the continuation of the democratic process. This is well known but rarely accepted by those who are predicting that coalitions will fall. Unfamiliar territories breed skepticism but why not give this crucial moment a chance whilst not forgetting that the elected cannot be put on a trial until they have been given a full term. And, that they have to be guided and when needed pressurized. But not maligned and demonized as this would suit the agenda of those who hold, to use the classic Iskander Mirza doctrine, that democracy does not suit the genius of Pakistanis. Given the internal and external realities -- waning federalism, long queues of would-be suicide bombers, institutional imbalances etc-- there is no choice but to make the impending coalitions work in the centre and provinces. If this can happen in India and other parts of the world, why can't it work here? Absolute single party rules (1970s and 1990s) have not worked that well either. If there is any modality that is needed by the fractured polity, it is that of a bipartisan, cooperative model that retains its essential strength in the face of overdeveloped state agencies, foreign occupation in the neighbourhood and grim economic crises. Participatory politics requires that elusive commodity 'the people" and their voices all make this work and do not settle for any other alternative howsoever attractive it might be to individual parties. This is why the PML-N should share power and represent its national and not just the provincial voters. The bitter lessons of history are clear; only if we have the will to learn from them. The writer is a freelance contributor who blogs at www.razarumi.com and Lahore Nama. -- www.razarumi.com -- From ajmalkamal at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 12:48:15 2008 From: ajmalkamal at gmail.com (Ajmal Kamal) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:18:15 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? In-Reply-To: <7e6d07440803120015g1f6e51abq3c826749e1d17519@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e6d07440803120015g1f6e51abq3c826749e1d17519@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7e6d07440803120018u1d0d9e4fnb3870727f0578018@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ajmal Kamal Date: Mar 12, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: Re: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? To: Sahar Shafqat , Abira Ashfaq , Gouri Patwardhan , All talk Pakvoices < All at talk.pakvoices.net> We must convey our feelings of shock, disgust and outrage to Asma Jahangir. There is no way she was not aware of the symbolic significance to going to the Chief Minister's house in Gandhinagar and meeting the man who not only presided over the massacre of 2002 but whose administration did everything to stop the process through which the victims could get relief and justice. Asma Jahangir is absolutely wrong in saying the the state government of Gujarat is taking measures to ensure that the victims could get relief. The said fascist government has consistently been taking measures in the opposite direction. If Asma Jahangir cares for her credibility, she must take back that disgusting approval which flies in the face of facts. These facts have been put together in the course of the past six years by India's brave civil society and media. I feel deeply embarrased and ashamed that the leading light of our country's human rights activists has tried to negate the work of Indian human rights activits and journalists. Asma must act to save her lifetime's work from getting destroyed. On 3/12/08, Sahar Shafqat wrote: > > from another list that i'm on. i like the way abira put it. we're planning > to write a letter of protest to her... > > *abira ashfaq * wrote: > > From: abira ashfaq > To: > Subject: RE: wtf is wrong with asma?? > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:29:40 +0000 > > > if it is possible for a person's persona and all she signifies to be > shattered in one sec in one picture...this is it. agree we should craft. > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > - -- Ajmal Kamal City Press Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, Pakistan. Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 - -- Ajmal Kamal City Press Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, Pakistan. Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Mar 12 14:10:42 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:40:42 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements In-Reply-To: <47D6C3C1.1080800@gmail.com> References: <47D6C3C1.1080800@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, actually it is very simple with cadres of left parties playing dirty goon games get away with clout with ruling party of Congress as ally,judiciary and prosecuting agencies take up only what is brought before them for judgement, investigating police in the hands of politicians, is lame duck, so citizens can see the mob dispensing justice, be it cadres of left or of any outfit, when rule of laws are subverted the common citizen who is law abiding looses hopes from system of governance, becomes part of the mob, remains cynical.! ----- Original Message ----- From: Anivar Aravind Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:10 pm Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements To: foil-l at insaf.net, reader-list at sarai.net, fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com > > > [There is a pattern in the assaults by CPIM on peoples movements in > kerala as you can see in Adivasi Land struggle in Aralam and > Chinnakkanal, Farmers struggles to save paddy fields in Muriyad and > Erayamkudy Chengara struggle for land by the landless, and forced > evictions in moolampally and moorkhan parambu for bigprojects. > In all places CPIM tried to defame leaders and people calling them > apolitical, naxalites, anarchists, anti people and development and > lately immoral and sex racketeers. There is a need to faceup this > threatto democratic space in kerala - Anivar] > > > Rebellion In Red Fort > > Across Kerala, a dozen people’s struggles have erupted against the > Leftregime’s cosying up to industry and its repression of dissent. > KA SHAJI > reports > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Ne150308rebellion_in.asp > > Tehelka > March 15th > > KA SHAJI > Thiruvananthapuram > > HISTORY REPEATS itself as farce, so went Marx’s dictum. In Kerala, > wherehis footsoldiers pulled off the first democratic win in the > world, the > Red party has turned against the people in a vicious somersault. > > Karivellur village in north Kerala has seen an arc of history come > fullcircle. On December 22, 1946, the British regime’s police had > gunneddown Communist activists who were preventing the local ruler > fromseizing the farmers’ produce. In February this year, a farmer > in the > village sent a bagful of rice seeds to agitating farmers in Erayamkudy > in the south as a mark of solidarity. The Erayamkudy farmers were > tryingto rescue their farms from real estate mafia and a number of big > industrial units manufacturing clay bricks for construction work. The > LDF government had persistently dismissed the farmers’ pleas against > leasing out rice fields and the backwater region to brick > manufacturingsand mining units. > > Rice seeds were one of the Erayamkudy farmers’s demands from the > government, and farmer Veluthambu sent his share in the face of > threatsfrom local CPM men. His dispatch got rousing receptions at > almost all > the railway stations en route. In Erayamkudy, noted Malayalam writers > Sugathakumari, Sarah Joseph, P. Surendran and KG Sankara Pillai helped > farmers in sowing Veluthambu’s seeds. > > In November last year, around 3,500 families in Erayamkudi had begun > protesting against the brick manufacturing units in the area. The > unitswere not only ruining the rice fields but also polluting the > air and > water. To the utter shock of the locals, the CPM and its > government took > the units’ side. > > When the agitation began receiving support even from Communist > citadelslike Karivellur, the CPM turned furious. It accused the > protestors of > having Maoist links. On Republic Day this January, the police > raided the > house of C. Jayasree, a leader of the agitation, to search for the > laptop of Mallaraja Reddy, a Maoist leader in Andhra Pradesh who was > arrested in Kerala in December. But the search proved vain, and the > incident infuriated civil society across the state. > > “What wrong has that lady done? She is doing what the organised Left > should do. Such struggles are inevitable in today’s India,’’ says > eminent jurist VR Krishna Iyer, who was a minister in the first EMS > Namboodiripad Communist government in Kerala. > > Erayamkudy is not an isolated flashpoint. At least a dozen people’s > struggles are being waged in different parts of Kerala where the > CPM is > cast as the proverbial “class enemy”. What is also distinct about the > struggles is that the involvement of NGOs is marginal. Leaders like > Jayasree come from families of traditional Left supporters and are not > anti-Marx in their beliefs. A reason why the CPM has branded them as > Maoists. > > IN THE heart of Kochi, a few yards from the High Court, a land > struggleis being fought by 40 families evicted from Moolampally > village to make > way for the proposed multicrore Vallarpadom Container Terminal. The > families were forced out of their homes in the dead of night when they > refused the compensation offered to them. “We are not against the > terminal, but we demanded proper rehabilitation and tax exemption for > the compensation package. But the government action was vengeful,” > saysFrancis Kulathingal, the leader of the agitation. Chief > Minister VS > Achuthanandan called the agitation a handiwork of Naxalites but > retracted the statement the very next day after civil society groups > rose in outrage. > > “You can ensure road and rail connectivity to Vallarpadam terminal > without evicting any of Moolampally’s residents. Revival of the > old rail > link to the defunct Ernakulam Rail Good Yard was suggested as one > alternative. It needed no acquisition and the expenses were also > lesser,” says CR Neelakantan, a social worker who is participating in > the struggle. “But the government evicted the poorer farmers who owned > about three cents of land. The old rail link was not considered > becauseit passes through an area owned by Hindustan Lever where > the company is > planning to build posh apartments and villas.’’ > > Valanthakkadu is another hub of public anger against the LDF’s > development agenda. Located two kilometres from Moolampally, the > entireValanthakad island is being sold off to a Bangalore-based > real estate > developer for a multi-crore “knowledge city”. Around 40 families of > Dalits have been evicted and several hectares of mangrove forests > razed. > Farmers at Mooriyad in Thrissur began an agitation last year to > protectabout 11,100 acres of rice fields from brick makers, sand > mining mafia > and tile factories by holding portraits of Ayyankali, a Dalit social > reformer of the early 20th century. The CPM cadre retaliated by > damagingAyyankali’s portraits. “With the CPM’s support, the mafia > has already > ruined 4,000 acres of rice fields,” says Varghese Thoduparambil, > leaderof the farmers’ front there. > > The strong resistance in Chakkamkandam village against the setting > up of > the Guruvayur temple town’s sewage treatment plant in their locality, > the tribal uprising in Aralam in Kannur demanding distribution of land > of a loss-making public sector unit among landless tribals, the > struggleby Dalits in Chengara near Pathanamthitta demanding the > ousting of a > powerful plantation group from government land after the lease period > was over, movements against illegal clay mining in Mangalapuram in > Thiruvananthapuram and in Kollam, the struggle against a proposed > hydelelectric project at Athirapally – such resistances are fast > eroding the > CPM’s mass base. > > “Farmers were committing suicide in Wayanad because of debt. The CPM > only shed crocodile tears,’’ says AC varkey, leader of the Farmers’ > Relief Forum in Wayanad, a district that has competed with > Vidharbha and > Anantapur for headline space in news media for “farmers’ suicides”. > > According to social activist R. Ajayan, the Plachimada struggle > againstCoca Cola and the Kasargod struggle against pesticide giant > Endosulphanwere inspirational. Coca Cola was left trying to > convert its bottling > plant into a mango juice production centre, and Endosulphan has been > banned in the state. Similarly, even though cases are still pending > against about 300 activists, a polluting pig breeding centre at > Kainoorin Thrissur has been shut down. The agitation against > illegal bauxite > mining in Kasargod is also gaining in strength. > > But the CPM continues to be one-eyed. In December last year, its cadre > in Chinnakanal in Idukki grabbed government land occupied by landless > tribals at the behest of the tourism lobby. > > WRITER’S E-MAIL > shaji at tehelka.com > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From rakesh at sarai.net Wed Mar 12 14:49:22 2008 From: rakesh at sarai.net (rakesh at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:49:22 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: RE: Pradip - Invitation Card - Dalit Cultural Festival] Message-ID: <2911.59.180.84.130.1205313562.squirrel@mail.sarai.net> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: RE: Pradip - Invitation Card - Dalit Cultural Festival From: "Pradip G More" Date: Wed, March 12, 2008 1:24 pm To: rakesh at sarai.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DALIT FOUNDATION takes pleasure in inviting you to UTSAV - A Celebration of struggle against Oppression A Festival of Dalit Art and Culture On March 15th and 16th at Constitution Club Lawn, Rafi Marg, New Delhi To be inaugurated by Smt. Sheila Dikshit, Hon'ble Chief Minister of Delhi at 5:30 pm Special Guest for the evening Prof. S.K Thorat, Padma Shree Chairman, University Grants Commission Valedictory Function to be held on 16th March at 6:30 pm Chief Guest Dr. Syeda S. Hameed, Padma Shree Member, Planning Commission, Government of India Special Guest for the Evening Dr. V. Mohini Giri, Padma Bhushan Chairperson of the Guild of Service Entry Free PROGRAMME ITINARARY DAY ONE: 15TH MARCH TIMINGS ACTIVITY 2:00 PM to 5:30 PM GODNA Art Exhibition 5:30 PM Inauguration of Utsava by Chief Guest, Smt. Shiela Dixit Hon'ble Chief Minister of Delhi 6:00 PM Commencement of the Cultural Evening: Opening Address by the Chairperson, Mr. Martin Macwan 6:15 PM to 6:45 PM Folk Dance by REDS - Karnataka Cultural Group 6:45 PM to 7:15 PM Sufiyana Performance by Mehar Chand Mastana by Punjab Cultural Group 7:15 PM to 7:45 PM Dhobiya Dance Performance by Uttar Pradesh Cultural Group 7:45 PM to 8:15 PM 'Bhavai' Performance on "Mahavir Meghmaya" by Gujarat Cultural Group 8:15 PM to 8:45 PM Performance by Dalit women Theatre group by Andhra Pradesh Cultural Group 8:50 PM to 9:20 PM 'Gigatham' Performance by Vizthugal Tamil Nadu Cultural Group DAY TWO: 16TH MARCH 12:00 AM to 5:30 PM GODNA Art Exhibition 5:30 PM Valedictory Function: Chief Guest Dr. Syeda Hameed, Member, Planning Commission 5:45 PM to 6:15 PM Kalbeliya Dance Performance by Rajasthan Cultural Group 6:15 PM to 6:45 PM 'Bhoomigeetham' Performance by Navchetana - Kerala Cultural Group 6:45 PM to 7:15 PM Folk Dance by Jharkhand Cultural Group 7:15 PM to 7:45 PM Play "Yaad Karo Qurbani" by Apna Theatre - Uttar Pradesh Culutral Group 7:45 PM to 8:15 PM Ghumra Dance Performance by Orissa Cultural Group 8:15 to 8:30 'Powda' Performance by Maharashtra Cultural Group 8:30 PM to 9:00 PM Folk Dance by Chhattisgarh Cultural Group 9:10 PM Closing of the Event Supported by: Sir Dorabji Tata Trust, Axis Bank, Transmetal Ltd (Baroda) and Ford Foundation www.dalitfoundation.org -----Original Message----- From: rakesh at sarai.net [mailto:rakesh at sarai.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:16 PM To: Pradip G More Subject: Re: Pradip - Invitation Card - Dalit Cultural Festival Thanks pradipji for sending me the invitation, but it will not do. Kindly send the plain text format of the invitation, means just type the text in your msg box and send. best wishes rakesh > > > Dear Rakeshji, > > > > Sending here invitation card, please see the attachment. > > > > Thanks and regards, > > Pradip > > ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 17:43:34 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:43:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements In-Reply-To: References: <47D6C3C1.1080800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803120513l6149af9fyfa5990204b16410a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, As we saw (and discussed a few days back), the BJP too indulged in this sort of hooliganism. The unfortunate truth is that virtually all parties indulge in the use of might to enforce their point of view. We saw this in Gujarat where Modi used not 'cadres' but the 'arm of the law' to suppress a section of the populace. And it happened in Bengal as well. I think the moot point is not to look at specific parties but to bring pressure on a whole to stop this practise - unless you think that only the use of might by the 'Left' and the 'Congress' should be stopped. Rgds, Partha ....................................... On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM, wrote: > Hi, > > actually it is very simple with cadres of left parties playing dirty goon > games get away with clout with ruling party of Congress as ally,judiciary > and prosecuting agencies take up only what is brought before them for > judgement, investigating police in the hands of politicians, is lame duck, > so citizens can see the mob dispensing justice, be it cadres of left or of > any outfit, when rule of laws are subverted the common citizen who is law > abiding looses hopes from system of governance, becomes part of the mob, > remains cynical.! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anivar Aravind > Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:10 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements > To: foil-l at insaf.net, reader-list at sarai.net, > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com > > > > > > > [There is a pattern in the assaults by CPIM on peoples movements in > > kerala as you can see in Adivasi Land struggle in Aralam and > > Chinnakkanal, Farmers struggles to save paddy fields in Muriyad and > > Erayamkudy Chengara struggle for land by the landless, and forced > > evictions in moolampally and moorkhan parambu for bigprojects. > > In all places CPIM tried to defame leaders and people calling them > > apolitical, naxalites, anarchists, anti people and development and > > lately immoral and sex racketeers. There is a need to faceup this > > threatto democratic space in kerala - Anivar] > > > > > > Rebellion In Red Fort > > > > Across Kerala, a dozen people's struggles have erupted against the > > Leftregime's cosying up to industry and its repression of dissent. > > KA SHAJI > > reports > > > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Ne150308rebellion_in.asp > > > > Tehelka > > March 15th > > > > KA SHAJI > > Thiruvananthapuram > > > > HISTORY REPEATS itself as farce, so went Marx's dictum. In Kerala, > > wherehis footsoldiers pulled off the first democratic win in the > > world, the > > Red party has turned against the people in a vicious somersault. > > > > Karivellur village in north Kerala has seen an arc of history come > > fullcircle. On December 22, 1946, the British regime's police had > > gunneddown Communist activists who were preventing the local ruler > > fromseizing the farmers' produce. In February this year, a farmer > > in the > > village sent a bagful of rice seeds to agitating farmers in Erayamkudy > > in the south as a mark of solidarity. The Erayamkudy farmers were > > tryingto rescue their farms from real estate mafia and a number of big > > industrial units manufacturing clay bricks for construction work. The > > LDF government had persistently dismissed the farmers' pleas against > > leasing out rice fields and the backwater region to brick > > manufacturingsand mining units. > > > > Rice seeds were one of the Erayamkudy farmers's demands from the > > government, and farmer Veluthambu sent his share in the face of > > threatsfrom local CPM men. His dispatch got rousing receptions at > > almost all > > the railway stations en route. In Erayamkudy, noted Malayalam writers > > Sugathakumari, Sarah Joseph, P. Surendran and KG Sankara Pillai helped > > farmers in sowing Veluthambu's seeds. > > > > In November last year, around 3,500 families in Erayamkudi had begun > > protesting against the brick manufacturing units in the area. The > > unitswere not only ruining the rice fields but also polluting the > > air and > > water. To the utter shock of the locals, the CPM and its > > government took > > the units' side. > > > > When the agitation began receiving support even from Communist > > citadelslike Karivellur, the CPM turned furious. It accused the > > protestors of > > having Maoist links. On Republic Day this January, the police > > raided the > > house of C. Jayasree, a leader of the agitation, to search for the > > laptop of Mallaraja Reddy, a Maoist leader in Andhra Pradesh who was > > arrested in Kerala in December. But the search proved vain, and the > > incident infuriated civil society across the state. > > > > "What wrong has that lady done? She is doing what the organised Left > > should do. Such struggles are inevitable in today's India,'' says > > eminent jurist VR Krishna Iyer, who was a minister in the first EMS > > Namboodiripad Communist government in Kerala. > > > > Erayamkudy is not an isolated flashpoint. At least a dozen people's > > struggles are being waged in different parts of Kerala where the > > CPM is > > cast as the proverbial "class enemy". What is also distinct about the > > struggles is that the involvement of NGOs is marginal. Leaders like > > Jayasree come from families of traditional Left supporters and are not > > anti-Marx in their beliefs. A reason why the CPM has branded them as > > Maoists. > > > > IN THE heart of Kochi, a few yards from the High Court, a land > > struggleis being fought by 40 families evicted from Moolampally > > village to make > > way for the proposed multicrore Vallarpadom Container Terminal. The > > families were forced out of their homes in the dead of night when they > > refused the compensation offered to them. "We are not against the > > terminal, but we demanded proper rehabilitation and tax exemption for > > the compensation package. But the government action was vengeful," > > saysFrancis Kulathingal, the leader of the agitation. Chief > > Minister VS > > Achuthanandan called the agitation a handiwork of Naxalites but > > retracted the statement the very next day after civil society groups > > rose in outrage. > > > > "You can ensure road and rail connectivity to Vallarpadam terminal > > without evicting any of Moolampally's residents. Revival of the > > old rail > > link to the defunct Ernakulam Rail Good Yard was suggested as one > > alternative. It needed no acquisition and the expenses were also > > lesser," says CR Neelakantan, a social worker who is participating in > > the struggle. "But the government evicted the poorer farmers who owned > > about three cents of land. The old rail link was not considered > > becauseit passes through an area owned by Hindustan Lever where > > the company is > > planning to build posh apartments and villas.'' > > > > Valanthakkadu is another hub of public anger against the LDF's > > development agenda. Located two kilometres from Moolampally, the > > entireValanthakad island is being sold off to a Bangalore-based > > real estate > > developer for a multi-crore "knowledge city". Around 40 families of > > Dalits have been evicted and several hectares of mangrove forests > > razed. > > Farmers at Mooriyad in Thrissur began an agitation last year to > > protectabout 11,100 acres of rice fields from brick makers, sand > > mining mafia > > and tile factories by holding portraits of Ayyankali, a Dalit social > > reformer of the early 20th century. The CPM cadre retaliated by > > damagingAyyankali's portraits. "With the CPM's support, the mafia > > has already > > ruined 4,000 acres of rice fields," says Varghese Thoduparambil, > > leaderof the farmers' front there. > > > > The strong resistance in Chakkamkandam village against the setting > > up of > > the Guruvayur temple town's sewage treatment plant in their locality, > > the tribal uprising in Aralam in Kannur demanding distribution of land > > of a loss-making public sector unit among landless tribals, the > > struggleby Dalits in Chengara near Pathanamthitta demanding the > > ousting of a > > powerful plantation group from government land after the lease period > > was over, movements against illegal clay mining in Mangalapuram in > > Thiruvananthapuram and in Kollam, the struggle against a proposed > > hydelelectric project at Athirapally – such resistances are fast > > eroding the > > CPM's mass base. > > > > "Farmers were committing suicide in Wayanad because of debt. The CPM > > only shed crocodile tears,'' says AC varkey, leader of the Farmers' > > Relief Forum in Wayanad, a district that has competed with > > Vidharbha and > > Anantapur for headline space in news media for "farmers' suicides". > > > > According to social activist R. Ajayan, the Plachimada struggle > > againstCoca Cola and the Kasargod struggle against pesticide giant > > Endosulphanwere inspirational. Coca Cola was left trying to > > convert its bottling > > plant into a mango juice production centre, and Endosulphan has been > > banned in the state. Similarly, even though cases are still pending > > against about 300 activists, a polluting pig breeding centre at > > Kainoorin Thrissur has been shut down. The agitation against > > illegal bauxite > > mining in Kasargod is also gaining in strength. > > > > But the CPM continues to be one-eyed. In December last year, its cadre > > in Chinnakanal in Idukki grabbed government land occupied by landless > > tribals at the behest of the tourism lobby. > > > > WRITER'S E-MAIL > > shaji at tehelka.com > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 18:17:38 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:47:38 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] EISENFRESSER/LOHA KHOR (Metal Eater) premieres @ British Museum Message-ID: Berlin-based Shahin Dil-Riaz was in Dhaka two weeks ago premiering EISENFRESSER. He used to be part of Tareque Masud's production crew (CLAY BIRD) before moving to Germany. His film is now premiering in London. Please pass this around. Absolutely worth checking out. Stunning visuals, and an intense story. [The shipbreaking yards of Chittagong have fascinated many artists and filmmakers. I did a mini-project on them with Robert Bailey. Many Dhaka photographers have explored them. But all this work has been superseded by Shahin's film, a labor of love of 7 years. Coming next (at least I am eagerly waiting for it) is Yasmine Kabir's film on the same topic. Yasmine is a brilliant filmmaker based in Dhaka. Her films will also show in London @ Rich Mix soon (details coming). ########################## London Premiere of the film LOHAKHOR / Ironeaters At the London International Documentary Film Festival 2008 on Saturday the 5th April 2008 in BP Theatre / British Museum at 12.20 p.m. There will be a panel discussion after the screening. Tickets are £3 and can be booked through the British Museum box office- 0207 323 8181. Synopsis: LOHAKHOR Ironeaters / Eisenfresser By Shaheen Dill-Riaz 85 min. 35mm, colour, Dolby Digital 5.1(Orig.Bengali with Engl. Subtitles) „If you are really hungry, you would be able to eat anything, even if it is iron „ said one of the worker, standing in front of a 52 thousands tones heavy Oil Tanker on a ship-breaking-yard in Chittagong, on the southern coast of Bangladesh, during my research for this film. Like Solayman, a huge number of farmers are forced by the annual famine in northern part of the country to leave their homeland and come to the shipyards in the south to work as seasonal workers. The film follows a group of workers from the north and accompanies them for four months during their work in the PHP-yard. PHP stands for "Peace Happiness and Prosperity". This is one of thirty yards that line the beaches of Chittagong where the farmers from the North do their deadly jobs. They dismantle the garbage of the Western World: oil tankers, vast container and passenger ship. This film became the witness of a cruel system of exploitation that very few workers can escape from: the seasonal workers from the north don't only do the hardest physical labour one can imagine, they are also forced into debt and trapped in the south. Awards: 1. First Prize, One-World-Award NRW 2007, Köln, Germany 2. First Prize, Film South Asia International Documentary Film Festival 2007,Katmandu, Nepal 3. GRAND PRIX, Festival International du Film d' Environnement, Paris 2007 Film Festivals: Munich International Documentary Film Festival, Germany, May 2007 Nürnberg International Humanrights Film Festival, Germany, September 2007 Lissabon International Documentary Film Festival, Portugal, Oktober 2007 Film South Asia Documentary Film Festival, Katmandu, Nepal, Oktober 2007 Sao Paulo International Film Festival, Brasil, Oktober 2007 International Environmental Film Festival, Paris, November 2007 DOCAVIV International Documentary Film Festival, Tel Aviv 2008 From svasreally at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:11:05 2008 From: svasreally at gmail.com (svati shah) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:41:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? In-Reply-To: <7e6d07440803120018u1d0d9e4fnb3870727f0578018@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e6d07440803120015g1f6e51abq3c826749e1d17519@mail.gmail.com> <7e6d07440803120018u1d0d9e4fnb3870727f0578018@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4e88fb10803120741h3abac2a5occdaca303b9b3896@mail.gmail.com> could someone please forward some background on this? Did Asma Jahangir release a statement about this? Svati Shah On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 3:18 AM, Ajmal Kamal wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ajmal Kamal > Date: Mar 12, 2008 12:15 PM > Subject: Re: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? > To: Sahar Shafqat , Abira Ashfaq >, > Gouri Patwardhan , All talk Pakvoices < > All at talk.pakvoices.net> > > We must convey our feelings of shock, disgust and outrage to Asma > Jahangir. > There is no way she was not aware of the symbolic significance to going to > the Chief Minister's house in Gandhinagar and meeting the man who not only > presided over the massacre of 2002 but whose administration did everything > to stop the process through which the victims could get relief and > justice. > Asma Jahangir is absolutely wrong in saying the the state government of > Gujarat is taking measures to ensure that the victims could get relief. > The > said fascist government has consistently been taking measures in the > opposite direction. If Asma Jahangir cares for her credibility, she must > take back that disgusting approval which flies in the face of facts. These > facts have been put together in the course of the past six years by > India's > brave civil society and media. I feel deeply embarrased and ashamed that > the > leading light of our country's human rights activists has tried to negate > the work of Indian human rights activits and journalists. Asma must act to > save her lifetime's work from getting destroyed. > > On 3/12/08, Sahar Shafqat wrote: > > > > from another list that i'm on. i like the way abira put it. we're > planning > > to write a letter of protest to her... > > > > *abira ashfaq * wrote: > > > > From: abira ashfaq > > To: > > Subject: RE: wtf is wrong with asma?? > > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:29:40 +0000 > > > > > > if it is possible for a person's persona and all she signifies to be > > shattered in one sec in one picture...this is it. agree we should > craft. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > > - -- > Ajmal Kamal > City Press > Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club > 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, > Pakistan. > Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 > > - -- > Ajmal Kamal > City Press > Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club > 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, > Pakistan. > Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:22:39 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Lawyer as Superman In-Reply-To: <21ace2e90803120724r1f7e1e34r7fc71e91a6ad62a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <17cf2f870803120243s79d7008en8d145d33f3cd6ef@mail.gmail.com> <66eeba690803120718k7c030474g45a97e2c1230848f@mail.gmail.com> <21ace2e90803120722n66dfc239j5e8940f0be85152e@mail.gmail.com> <21ace2e90803120724r1f7e1e34r7fc71e91a6ad62a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0803120752x5b247c04rea171df4cb6d8045@mail.gmail.com> photograph from the Christian Science Monitor of a Pakistani lawyer escaping tear gas *http://tinyurl.com/3yb7yx * -- http://blackflagweek.blogspot.com/ bbc urdu font > http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/# From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:45:52 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:15:52 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? References: <7e6d07440803120015g1f6e51abq3c826749e1d17519@mail.gmail.com><7e6d07440803120018u1d0d9e4fnb3870727f0578018@mail.gmail.com> <4e88fb10803120741h3abac2a5occdaca303b9b3896@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e901c88454$0a293090$3e29ab0a@taraprakash> I doubt. Even if she did, perhaps she is being quoted out of context. There are forces in Pakistan and also in India who won't mind maligning her image, some for political reasons, others on communal grounds. ----- Original Message ----- From: "svati shah" To: "Ajmal Kamal" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? > could someone please forward some background on this? Did Asma Jahangir > release a statement about this? > Svati Shah > > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 3:18 AM, Ajmal Kamal wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Ajmal Kamal >> Date: Mar 12, 2008 12:15 PM >> Subject: Re: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? >> To: Sahar Shafqat , Abira Ashfaq > >, >> Gouri Patwardhan , All talk Pakvoices < >> All at talk.pakvoices.net> >> >> We must convey our feelings of shock, disgust and outrage to Asma >> Jahangir. >> There is no way she was not aware of the symbolic significance to going >> to >> the Chief Minister's house in Gandhinagar and meeting the man who not >> only >> presided over the massacre of 2002 but whose administration did >> everything >> to stop the process through which the victims could get relief and >> justice. >> Asma Jahangir is absolutely wrong in saying the the state government of >> Gujarat is taking measures to ensure that the victims could get relief. >> The >> said fascist government has consistently been taking measures in the >> opposite direction. If Asma Jahangir cares for her credibility, she must >> take back that disgusting approval which flies in the face of facts. >> These >> facts have been put together in the course of the past six years by >> India's >> brave civil society and media. I feel deeply embarrased and ashamed that >> the >> leading light of our country's human rights activists has tried to negate >> the work of Indian human rights activits and journalists. Asma must act >> to >> save her lifetime's work from getting destroyed. >> >> On 3/12/08, Sahar Shafqat wrote: >> > >> > from another list that i'm on. i like the way abira put it. we're >> planning >> > to write a letter of protest to her... >> > >> > *abira ashfaq * wrote: >> > >> > From: abira ashfaq >> > To: >> > Subject: RE: wtf is wrong with asma?? >> > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:29:40 +0000 >> > >> > >> > if it is possible for a person's persona and all she signifies to be >> > shattered in one sec in one picture...this is it. agree we should >> craft. >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< >> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> > >> > >> >> >> - -- >> Ajmal Kamal >> City Press >> Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club >> 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, >> Pakistan. >> Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 >> >> - -- >> Ajmal Kamal >> City Press >> Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club >> 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, >> Pakistan. >> Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ajmalkamal at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 22:10:27 2008 From: ajmalkamal at gmail.com (Ajmal Kamal) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:40:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? In-Reply-To: <4e88fb10803120741h3abac2a5occdaca303b9b3896@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e6d07440803120015g1f6e51abq3c826749e1d17519@mail.gmail.com> <7e6d07440803120018u1d0d9e4fnb3870727f0578018@mail.gmail.com> <4e88fb10803120741h3abac2a5occdaca303b9b3896@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7e6d07440803120940p8d520f9k3eab08398190facc@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/10/stories/2008031059281300.htm http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/10/stories/2008031055231300.htm AHMEDABAD: A United Nations human rights team led by Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief, Asma Jahangir, visited Gujarat on Sunday to oversee the relief and rehabilitation of the 2002 communal riot victims in the State. She met some of the riot-hit families and visited the makeshift camps where some of the affected families were still living. Ms. Jahangir also visited the Sabarmati Gandhi Ashram as well as the Sarkhej Roza, a famous shrine of the Muslims in Ahmedabad. She also called on Chief Minister Narendra Modi and the Director-General of Police P.C. Pandey in Gandhinagar. In a brief comment to mediapersons, she described her visit to Gujarat as a "pleasant one" and *appreciated some of the steps taken by the government for rehabilitation of the riot-hit. * (Emphasis added) On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 7:41 PM, svati shah wrote: > could someone please forward some background on this? Did Asma Jahangir > release a statement about this? > Svati Shah > > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 3:18 AM, Ajmal Kamal wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Ajmal Kamal > > Date: Mar 12, 2008 12:15 PM > > Subject: Re: What is wrong with Asma Jahangir? > > To: Sahar Shafqat , Abira Ashfaq < > > abira_a at hotmail.com>, > > Gouri Patwardhan , All talk Pakvoices < > > All at talk.pakvoices.net> > > > > We must convey our feelings of shock, disgust and outrage to Asma > > Jahangir. > > There is no way she was not aware of the symbolic significance to going > > to > > the Chief Minister's house in Gandhinagar and meeting the man who not > > only > > presided over the massacre of 2002 but whose administration did > > everything > > to stop the process through which the victims could get relief and > > justice. > > Asma Jahangir is absolutely wrong in saying the the state government of > > Gujarat is taking measures to ensure that the victims could get relief. > > The > > said fascist government has consistently been taking measures in the > > opposite direction. If Asma Jahangir cares for her credibility, she must > > take back that disgusting approval which flies in the face of facts. > > These > > facts have been put together in the course of the past six years by > > India's > > brave civil society and media. I feel deeply embarrased and ashamed that > > the > > leading light of our country's human rights activists has tried to > > negate > > the work of Indian human rights activits and journalists. Asma must act > > to > > save her lifetime's work from getting destroyed. > > > > On 3/12/08, Sahar Shafqat wrote: > > > > > > from another list that i'm on. i like the way abira put it. we're > > planning > > > to write a letter of protest to her... > > > > > > *abira ashfaq * wrote: > > > > > > From: abira ashfaq > > > To: > > > Subject: RE: wtf is wrong with asma?? > > > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:29:40 +0000 > > > > > > > > > if it is possible for a person's persona and all she signifies to be > > > shattered in one sec in one picture...this is it. agree we should > > craft. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< > > http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > Ajmal Kamal > > City Press > > Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club > > 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, > > Pakistan. > > Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 > > > > - -- > > Ajmal Kamal > > City Press > > Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club > > 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, > > Pakistan. > > Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Ajmal Kamal City Press Publishing House, Bookshop and Film Club 316 Madina City Mall, Abdullah Haroon Road, Saddar, Karachi 74400, Pakistan. Phone: (92-21) 5650623, 5213916 From janaki.abraham at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 09:16:29 2008 From: janaki.abraham at gmail.com (Janaki Abraham) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:16:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Visual cultures of North Kerala Message-ID: Its the last THREE days! Please catch the exhibition: EXPLORING THE VISUAL CULTURES OF NORTH KERALA photographs, albums and videos in everyday life by Janaki Abraham and Aarthi Ajit at the School of Arts and Aesthetics, JNU, New Delhi 110067 10 am - 7 pm the show is on until the evening of Saturday the 15th of March, 2008. Do come! This project has been funded by the India Foundation for the Arts and is underwritten by the Sir Ratan Tata Trust. Dr. Janaki Abraham, Assistant Professor, Women's Studies Programme, School of Social Sciences II, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi 110067 Ph: 011- 26704166 (office) 011-26704146 (direct) From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 13 14:22:32 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:52:32 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements In-Reply-To: <32144e990803120513l6149af9fyfa5990204b16410a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47D6C3C1.1080800@gmail.com> <32144e990803120513l6149af9fyfa5990204b16410a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Partha, your post presumes that this thought from me is exempting the BJP.! When the post says political parties and BJP being political outfit, where is your presumption. ? Please re-read my post. The only difference is my post does not specify individuals, like yours, which again is according to me is wrong, as Modi has not personally supervised like the item numbers of english media anchors made it in their reportage to appease their political leanings, likes of Sajjan Kumar , Jagadeesh Tytler and Kamalnath eventhough did exactly that they are "respected", goons of left, being led from the front is also incorrect as there is no evidence but only perception. Ofcourse in Kannur, Kerala, the legend has it that the local leaders of both the parties lead from the front in their fight and violence, but media sees only BJP.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Anivar Aravind , reader-list at sarai.net, fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com, foil-l at insaf.net > Dear Radhikarajen, > > As we saw (and discussed a few days back), the BJP too indulged in > this sort > of hooliganism. > > The unfortunate truth is that virtually all parties indulge in the > use of > might to enforce their point of view. We saw this in Gujarat where > Modi used > not 'cadres' but the 'arm of the law' to suppress a section of the > populace. > > And it happened in Bengal as well. > > I think the moot point is not to look at specific parties but to bring > pressure on a whole to stop this practise - unless you think that > only the > use of might by the 'Left' and the 'Congress' should be stopped. > > Rgds, Partha > ....................................... > > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM, wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > actually it is very simple with cadres of left parties playing > dirty goon > > games get away with clout with ruling party of Congress as > ally,judiciary> and prosecuting agencies take up only what is > brought before them for > > judgement, investigating police in the hands of politicians, is > lame duck, > > so citizens can see the mob dispensing justice, be it cadres of > left or of > > any outfit, when rule of laws are subverted the common citizen > who is law > > abiding looses hopes from system of governance, becomes part of > the mob, > > remains cynical.! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Anivar Aravind > > Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:10 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM's assaults on peoples movements > > To: foil-l at insaf.net, reader-list at sarai.net, > > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > [There is a pattern in the assaults by CPIM on peoples > movements in > > > kerala as you can see in Adivasi Land struggle in Aralam and > > > Chinnakkanal, Farmers struggles to save paddy fields in > Muriyad and > > > Erayamkudy Chengara struggle for land by the landless, and forced > > > evictions in moolampally and moorkhan parambu for bigprojects. > > > In all places CPIM tried to defame leaders and people calling them > > > apolitical, naxalites, anarchists, anti people and development and > > > lately immoral and sex racketeers. There is a need to faceup this > > > threatto democratic space in kerala - Anivar] > > > > > > > > > Rebellion In Red Fort > > > > > > Across Kerala, a dozen people's struggles have erupted against the > > > Leftregime's cosying up to industry and its repression of dissent. > > > KA SHAJI > > > reports > > > > > > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main38.asp?filename=Ne150308rebellion_in.asp> > > > > Tehelka > > > March 15th > > > > > > KA SHAJI > > > Thiruvananthapuram > > > > > > HISTORY REPEATS itself as farce, so went Marx's dictum. In Kerala, > > > wherehis footsoldiers pulled off the first democratic win in the > > > world, the > > > Red party has turned against the people in a vicious somersault. > > > > > > Karivellur village in north Kerala has seen an arc of history come > > > fullcircle. On December 22, 1946, the British regime's police had > > > gunneddown Communist activists who were preventing the local ruler > > > fromseizing the farmers' produce. In February this year, a farmer > > > in the > > > village sent a bagful of rice seeds to agitating farmers in > Erayamkudy> > in the south as a mark of solidarity. The Erayamkudy > farmers were > > > tryingto rescue their farms from real estate mafia and a > number of big > > > industrial units manufacturing clay bricks for construction > work. The > > > LDF government had persistently dismissed the farmers' pleas > against> > leasing out rice fields and the backwater region to brick > > > manufacturingsand mining units. > > > > > > Rice seeds were one of the Erayamkudy farmers's demands from the > > > government, and farmer Veluthambu sent his share in the face of > > > threatsfrom local CPM men. His dispatch got rousing receptions at > > > almost all > > > the railway stations en route. In Erayamkudy, noted Malayalam > writers> > Sugathakumari, Sarah Joseph, P. Surendran and KG > Sankara Pillai helped > > > farmers in sowing Veluthambu's seeds. > > > > > > In November last year, around 3,500 families in Erayamkudi had > begun> > protesting against the brick manufacturing units in the > area. The > > > unitswere not only ruining the rice fields but also polluting the > > > air and > > > water. To the utter shock of the locals, the CPM and its > > > government took > > > the units' side. > > > > > > When the agitation began receiving support even from Communist > > > citadelslike Karivellur, the CPM turned furious. It accused the > > > protestors of > > > having Maoist links. On Republic Day this January, the police > > > raided the > > > house of C. Jayasree, a leader of the agitation, to search for the > > > laptop of Mallaraja Reddy, a Maoist leader in Andhra Pradesh > who was > > > arrested in Kerala in December. But the search proved vain, > and the > > > incident infuriated civil society across the state. > > > > > > "What wrong has that lady done? She is doing what the > organised Left > > > should do. Such struggles are inevitable in today's India,'' says > > > eminent jurist VR Krishna Iyer, who was a minister in the > first EMS > > > Namboodiripad Communist government in Kerala. > > > > > > Erayamkudy is not an isolated flashpoint. At least a dozen > people's> > struggles are being waged in different parts of Kerala > where the > > > CPM is > > > cast as the proverbial "class enemy". What is also distinct > about the > > > struggles is that the involvement of NGOs is marginal. Leaders > like> > Jayasree come from families of traditional Left supporters > and are not > > > anti-Marx in their beliefs. A reason why the CPM has branded > them as > > > Maoists. > > > > > > IN THE heart of Kochi, a few yards from the High Court, a land > > > struggleis being fought by 40 families evicted from Moolampally > > > village to make > > > way for the proposed multicrore Vallarpadom Container > Terminal. The > > > families were forced out of their homes in the dead of night > when they > > > refused the compensation offered to them. "We are not against the > > > terminal, but we demanded proper rehabilitation and tax > exemption for > > > the compensation package. But the government action was vengeful," > > > saysFrancis Kulathingal, the leader of the agitation. Chief > > > Minister VS > > > Achuthanandan called the agitation a handiwork of Naxalites but > > > retracted the statement the very next day after civil society > groups> > rose in outrage. > > > > > > "You can ensure road and rail connectivity to Vallarpadam terminal > > > without evicting any of Moolampally's residents. Revival of the > > > old rail > > > link to the defunct Ernakulam Rail Good Yard was suggested as one > > > alternative. It needed no acquisition and the expenses were also > > > lesser," says CR Neelakantan, a social worker who is > participating in > > > the struggle. "But the government evicted the poorer farmers > who owned > > > about three cents of land. The old rail link was not considered > > > becauseit passes through an area owned by Hindustan Lever where > > > the company is > > > planning to build posh apartments and villas.'' > > > > > > Valanthakkadu is another hub of public anger against the LDF's > > > development agenda. Located two kilometres from Moolampally, the > > > entireValanthakad island is being sold off to a Bangalore-based > > > real estate > > > developer for a multi-crore "knowledge city". Around 40 > families of > > > Dalits have been evicted and several hectares of mangrove forests > > > razed. > > > Farmers at Mooriyad in Thrissur began an agitation last year to > > > protectabout 11,100 acres of rice fields from brick makers, sand > > > mining mafia > > > and tile factories by holding portraits of Ayyankali, a Dalit > social> > reformer of the early 20th century. The CPM cadre > retaliated by > > > damagingAyyankali's portraits. "With the CPM's support, the mafia > > > has already > > > ruined 4,000 acres of rice fields," says Varghese Thoduparambil, > > > leaderof the farmers' front there. > > > > > > The strong resistance in Chakkamkandam village against the setting > > > up of > > > the Guruvayur temple town's sewage treatment plant in their > locality,> > the tribal uprising in Aralam in Kannur demanding > distribution of land > > > of a loss-making public sector unit among landless tribals, the > > > struggleby Dalits in Chengara near Pathanamthitta demanding the > > > ousting of a > > > powerful plantation group from government land after the lease > period> > was over, movements against illegal clay mining in > Mangalapuram in > > > Thiruvananthapuram and in Kollam, the struggle against a proposed > > > hydelelectric project at Athirapally – such resistances are fast > > > eroding the > > > CPM's mass base. > > > > > > "Farmers were committing suicide in Wayanad because of debt. > The CPM > > > only shed crocodile tears,'' says AC varkey, leader of the > Farmers'> > Relief Forum in Wayanad, a district that has competed with > > > Vidharbha and > > > Anantapur for headline space in news media for "farmers' > suicides".> > > > > According to social activist R. Ajayan, the Plachimada struggle > > > againstCoca Cola and the Kasargod struggle against pesticide giant > > > Endosulphanwere inspirational. Coca Cola was left trying to > > > convert its bottling > > > plant into a mango juice production centre, and Endosulphan > has been > > > banned in the state. Similarly, even though cases are still > pending> > against about 300 activists, a polluting pig breeding > centre at > > > Kainoorin Thrissur has been shut down. The agitation against > > > illegal bauxite > > > mining in Kasargod is also gaining in strength. > > > > > > But the CPM continues to be one-eyed. In December last year, > its cadre > > > in Chinnakanal in Idukki grabbed government land occupied by > landless> > tribals at the behest of the tourism lobby. > > > > > > WRITER'S E-MAIL > > > shaji at tehelka.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From ravikant at sarai.net Thu Mar 13 18:19:22 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:19:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: cinema history workshop at JNU Message-ID: <200803131819.22426.ravikant@sarai.net> * * *School of the Arts and Aesthetics* *Presents * *Cinema and Theatre: histories, practices, theoretical categories* A Workshop at SAA 15 March 2008 11am – 5pm Speakers : Kathryn Hansen, Christine Gledhill, Kaushik Bhowmick, Ravi Vasudevan * * *Kindly register for the Workshop at the SAA Office * ------------------------------------------------------- From nutan_du at yahoo.co.in Fri Mar 14 18:21:09 2008 From: nutan_du at yahoo.co.in (nutan maurya) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:51:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Do visit it... Message-ID: <350134.67068.qm@web8712.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear friends, it is an small endeavor to decipher the alarms in the news. Do visit once this link, http://www.newsforchange.blogspot.com. Thanks. --------------------------------- Bring your gang together - do your thing. Start your group. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 15 08:19:52 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:49:52 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: DJ Spooky Judges Obama in 30 Seconds Contest Message-ID: <20080315024953.90D7C1C10027@mail.sarai.net> Hey people - I want to draw the list's attention to a project I'm judging with Michael Franti, Moby, John Legend, Eddie Vedder, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Oliver Stone, Russell Simmons, and others. We are judging the best 30-second Barack Obama commercials for MoveOn.org. Would-be contestants are directed to Obamain30seconds.org. All I can say is that the whole contest is perfectly green, as it is powered by the renewable resources of creativity, audacity, hope, and "grassroots enthusiasm." (Hugs and rainbow themes are encouraged.) I know there's lots of artists on this mailing list, and I want to encourage you all to participate. It's an amazing grassroots effort by one of my favorite political organizations to affect what is fast becoming one of the most important Presidential elections in recent memory. We'll start accepting submissions on Thursday, March 27th, and all entries must be in by 11:59 p.m. PDT on Tuesday, April 1. So you should get started right away. To see the contest guidelines, tips for making an ad, info about Barack Obama, and answers to frequently asked questions, go to the "Obama in 30 Seconds" site: http://www.obamain30seconds.org The winner gets his or her ad aired nationally and a $20k gift certificate for video equipment. Check out the Huffington Post Article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/13/matt-damon-ben-affleck-_n_91353.html and please go to the actual Obama in 30 seconds website for details on how to join the contest: http://www.obamain30seconds.org On another note, my second book is coming out in a little bit. It's an anthology I edited called Sound Unbound (MIT Press, 2008), and it has lots of folks from different styles participating. I don't want to overload y'all, so I'll keep it brief. You can check out the info on the book HERE: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11401&xid=10&xcid=0 More in a bit! in peace, Paul aka Dj Spooky ---------------- From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Sat Mar 15 12:41:11 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Characteristing Rape : Towards a feminism from no where Message-ID: <682958.22163.qm@web8514.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear all on the list and outside, Is the question of character relevant to rape? What has sexual history of a person to do with sexual violence? A lot of blood and milk has been thrown over sexual violence, sexual ethics, morality, theoretical correctness, political incorrecteness and so much more on this list. And from the reaction I receive I have an apprehension that I'm grouped under the ( sexual)libertarian category and seem to have been an arguer for all things un acceptable ( Habermas talks about Bataille in this vein though thankfully Im not that great). This is cheap and obvious but not true. I furnish an example which has been published in English and Bengali ( in a major news paper) both and has been an uncomfortable milestone among feminists in Bengal (the moment that article comes to question, they all have some urgent work to do). I put it up on the list now before a more difficult and sophisticated version of this comes up in my upcoming book. Let me tell all,with this, I and my likes are those who stand for morality and virtue-ethicality; we are the ones who have searched for the immanent sacred in the so called profane. Our personalist feminism is thus a feminism from no where but genuinely for equality, goodness and freedom. And as a last manifesto, I put this piece ( first drafted in the year 2001 I guess and here as it is)in order to exemplify what I am saying and that those practitioners of feminism from somehere have to now reckon with these arguments; there is no escape.This piece loaded with apparent legal reasoning is dedicated to my friend Lawrence Liang and Ramanjeet Chima ( who will correct me if they want to)and to those who want heavy postings from me; not sweet nothings. -------------- ‘Law stands between politics and morality’ – Jurgen Habermas , Law and Morality, The Tanner Lectures on Human values , Harvard university, Oct1,2, 1986 CHARACTER (ISING) RAPE, CONTEMPLATING AMENDMENT What was noticeable in the episode in which Anil Biswas was shouted at and condemned by nearly everybody - when he had reported that there were questions in the locality about the ‘lifestyle’ of an alleged rape victim, was the immense confidence with which the argument of Biswas was put down. This false confidence derived from the Indian Evidence ( Amendment) Bill, 2002 becoming Indian Evidence Amendment Act, 2003. The act seeks to amend the Indian Evidence Act, 1872, and provides for deletion of clause 4 of section 155 by specifically providing in Section 146 that in a prosecution for rape or attempt to commit rape, it will not be permissible to ‘put questions in the cross examination of the complainant as to her general immoral character’. In Section 155(4) this could have been used previously to impeach the credit of the complainant as a witness. Before that there was the 177th report of the Law Commission of India and the National Commission for Women who had unanimously recommended the deletion of Section 155(4) of the Indian Evidence Act. The recommendations were pushed forward keeping in view instances - where people have been acquitted because of the immoral character of the complainant or the latter were harassed in cross examination. So far so good! .. But this amendment is in a sense redundant if we want to closely read two other Sections [151,152] of the Indian Evidence Act ( I.E.A). Section 151 states, ‘The Court may forbid any question or inquiries which it regards as indecent or scandalous although such questions or inquiries may have some bearing on the questions before the Court unless they relate to fact in issue or to matters necessary to be known in order to determine whether or not the facts in issue ’; Section 152 states, ‘ The Court shall forbid any question which appears to it to be intended to insult or annoy, or which, though proper in itself, appears to the Court needlessly offensive in form’. The question is, despite this immunity and the power of the trial judge to intervene, the courts must have failed in their duties to protect a rape complainant from being scandalized while being questioned; through this amendment the Indian legislature vis a- vis the Supreme Court acknowledges this failure perhaps. No explanation has been forwarded on this count from any quarters. In the Rajya Sabha itself this question was raised by Shri S. Shumugasundaram but he ended up having had to welcome the Bill—such is the compulsion to be politically correct. This is a technical and nearly a fatal objection to the amendment - from within the I.E.A. But the amendment arguers and makers, movers and shakers have other serious sociological reasons too—which are abundant in the media; abundant and cheap because any critical argument against – is avoided or suppressed. The reasons of the protagonists are1) immoral character has nothing to do with the fact that one is being raped. 2) morality of character is an ethico-moral issue, not a legal one. 3) Immorality should be left alone so that we are able to respect a persons’ privacy. 2.Reading character in the I.E.A We must first try to prove that the question of one’s character is vital for a case of rape or sexual assault. Now-everybody knows that a poetess—Madhumita Shukla has been murdered in U.P and a lot has been written on it, the minister had to resign. But her preeminently dangerous lifestyle—a disposition to sleep with the politicians and criminals of Gorakhpur—has nothing to do with her own death? To hobnob with Amarmani Tripathi—the infamous minister who has had nearly 38 cases against him for murder, land grab to rape—his moral character has nothing to do with Madhumita’s death? It would be scandalous to consider the women’s death separate from the kind of lifestyle she was used to, the kind of action norms she had set for herself – the kind of ‘character’ that she was. Would it have been irrelevant if her or the ministers’ character had featured in the trial if she were raped- not murdered? Not at all. And provided the woman had led a sane life in accordance with acceptable moral standards and still she were raped, then the character of the alleged rapist would have featured in a vicious way. This is missing in the I.E.A. Infact what was actually wrong is the gender bias in the Section [ 155(4) ] where the immoral character of the complainant could be invoked by the defence lawyer to impeach only the complainants’ witness; the witness is understandably a woman here. The moment we make it gender neutral we assume the bias is corrected. But instead of giving it a corrective, the amendment makers have done away with the whole thing. (Character here signify serial and stable dispositions of an individual over of an individual over time i.e our actions and behaviorial dispositions by which we come to be known as reliable or a cheater, romantic or someone always with sexual intent etc.) And this weighing of dispositions of individuals is what makes everyday life going; you know a guy to be ‘good’, you decide to go to a date and return being raped ( for this read the ever growing literature on date rape); you know somebody is of questionable ‘morals’; so decide not to go on a date or go at a time, at a place where his morals will not get the go. Likewise, for every person we just cannot afford to start from zero; therefore when it is suggested that in a rape or in a case of sexual assault any question of character is uncalled for—the obvious thing that comes to mind is, are we products of our past actions? Do our pasts have a lot to do with our present or all our actions are arbitrary and accidental and there is no logic to be found? The point is- claims on the past—even our pasts -- can be contested but cannot be done without. And that we everyday invoke and use these character traits to guide us in our actions is absolutely relevant. And because crime has this life as the backdrop, ‘situations’ as well as ‘characters’, ‘dispositions’ as well as ‘life style’ have to be taken into account. What is actually wrong is the gender bias in the Section where the immoral character of the complainant could be invoked by the defence lawyer to impeach her witness; the witness is understandably a woman here. The moment we make it gender neutral we assume the bias is corrected. The immoral character clause should be applied on both the complainant and the alleged perpetrator; for men --it should be made more rigorously so—given the patriarchial nature of our society and men like Amarmani Tripathy. The way it is happening now strategically-- is well illustrated by one www.onlinedetective.com which will give you all information u regard necessary to date, marry, have sex or start a business: here it is- “And how do you really know that the guy you've started dating isn't actually a convicted wife-beater with several restraining orders on him, or that the new employee you're about to hire really has all the qualifications she says that she does? What if your new neighbor that's suddenly started playing with your kids after school is actually a convicted child molester? You need to know these things in order to protect yourself, your family, and your business”. If these are our inquiries in everyday life, it is a wonder that these are considered irrelevant in a criminal case. Here is an other example with a legal niche: recently in West London an Indian businessman – Amarjit Chouhan along with his family has been murdered. British police has arrested two English men – examining whose past records – the police has come to the conclusion that the two are violent and dangerous. Now violent and dangerous are apparently morally negative traits of a person, but in the eyes of the Law - they having surveyed the behavioral history of the individuals—are historical decisions with legal consequences and not moral ones. Here character does not stand for popular evaluative common sense conceptions of good-bad, right- wrong etc, because no incentives are there for being a morally better person ( his crimes will still be tried) instead there is a sense that an immoral behaviour is more threat to society’s security than a moral one; infact there is a legal -blame worthiness in the sense a repeated offence might ensure more stringent punishment. If our recommendation to include the character of the convict is accepted, in that case reinvoking the case of Amarmani Tripathi, any past conviction will also add a dimension to this. A repeated offence might ensure This is clearly explicated in I.E.A ( Section 54, Explanation 2) : ‘A previous conviction is relevant as evidence of bad character’. This statement proves again that character in the I.E.A does not derive from moral precepts as the Law Commission et.al understand it but has special techno-legal value. This is clearly explicated in I.E.A ( Section 54, Explanation 2) : ‘A previous conviction is relevant as evidence of bad character’. Let us extend this argument to Indian politics : isn’t this the clause we are pressing through a bill in a different form-for the knowledge of the pasts of our political representatives to be delivered to the people?—or else why are we concerned about their past convictions?—even their moral history held in their ‘clean’ images—in short –their ‘ characters’? Because we are invoking the moralization of politics ( that politics should not violate moral norms), - aren’t we? We are moved by the current demoralization of politics, but at the same time—it is peculiar we are about to argue in favour of the de-moralization of Law -that law and morality should be separate ( which is in reality a rational illusion of modernity)—not knowing that the demoralization of politics is only a step further! To be more concrete—what has been considered a relevant inquiry for a political representative is irrelevant for an ordinary citizen? This is awfully undemocratic and politically self defeating. 3.Immoral character, where then? The model of this debate was set when a British judge- Lord Devlin in responding to the report of the Committee on homosexual Offenses and Prostitution called The Wolfendon report argued, “ without shared ideas on politics, morals, and ethics no society can exist ..therefore with “ recognized morality” being present , legislation against immorality is indispensable to prevent the disintegration of society.( check it as quote). “ Criminal Law exists for the protection of society, not as the Wolfenden Report asserted, for the protection of the individual.” The Wolfenden report in turn had asserted that “ there must remain a realm of private morality and immorality which is not the law’s business.” There is nothing wrong with private immorality; immorality unless it harms others or else is public is at par with the liberty of individuals. For example , I might be a homosexual - while my community—legal community in which I live, sees homosexuality as immorality; if I ‘m engaged in homosexual acts in private—outside the purview of the public eye—perhaps in the bedroom, the state will not intervene; but if I pursue it as a particular kind of lifestyle openly and demand rights for the same the state needs to intervene and negotiate. ( It is necessary to read the references to character through reputation in the I.E.A by not separating them from their appropriate contexts. It clearly states ( in Explanation-55) that ‘in Section 52, 53, 54 and 55, the word ‘ character’ includes both reputation and disposition; but except as provided in Section 54, evidence may be given of only a general reputation and general disposition and not of particular acts by which reputation or disposition was shown.’) There are two or three factors at stake here: while the Indian Evidence Act speaks about bad reputation in general --clearly tells about reputation that hasn’t grown out of private immorality; if I’ve been privately and secretly immoral how do I come to have a (dis)‘reputation’ and be known as immoral? Further, reputation has nothing to do with (moral) sexual acts only; one can earn ill repute just because s/he is cruel to the animals or a swindler or a black money maker. A girl when walks with a half bare bosom ( agreeably -a private part) or a boy exhibits something from his private ‘inventory’—it is said to be an event of public immorality ( indecency) which violates group or civic morality; it is possible to go further and argue that the girl or the boy outrages her/ his own modesty when she does so. In this sense - that one must be free to lead any sort of life one wants to - stands for all and nothing: a married woman/ man if does not respect marriage as a moral contract and justifies fornication by her/his actions cannot be accepted on grounds of freedom or being privately immoral and therefore to be tolerated. It is on the question of character at times -- that a suit of divorce is successfully filed and won even by submitting the burden of proof, and no way it can be argued that if a wife files a suit of divorce because her husband has been adulterous, she should be taught that Law has nothing to do with morality and one can be privately immoral and she should have inquired whether her hubby had taken enough caution to be secretive. This is just ridiculous! Secondly, that one’s character is a private matter and the Law should not interfere in matters private has been disputed most by the feminists themselves. By saying ‘ personal is political’ they took so called private matters for public legislation; the issue of marital rape was brought to light by their incessant efforts. If they were to be satisfied with the immorality that can be safely practiced in private, they would not have called forth for legislation on the consensual validity of conjugal copulation that obviously does not take place in public. 4. Character—a moral question! Really? Their answer is something like this: Law looses it’s legal character if it is lead by the axioms of morality; it will see to the illegality of the event in question rather than the immorality of the event. An immoral ‘victim’ and a perpetrator with a sound moral history should be considered equals before the eyes of the Law. Legality and morality are two different things. Justice has to do only with legality and not morality. Long back it was Karl Marx who had told us most emphatically—how Law is not just Law! Again it is the works of one of the greatest philosophers of the 20th century—Jurgen Habermas—which has reminded us that it is through the political legislature - which is the law making body—that morality and politics enter through the back door perhaps,(remember the Shah Banu controversy); and it is simply an illusion that law and morality, law and politics, or law and society are internally separate and separable. Further –if Law apart from having to have compulsory legal validity ( i.e it’s equally enforceable for all and violation will entail punishment) is to have normative or social validity—that is, if it is to be seen as ‘just’ - has to negotiate - with the moral expectations of a population and seek consensus through argument. - or otherwise how would Nazi laws, even retrospectively, be questioned? If law is to justify itself in the eyes of all affected and gain social validity apart from legal validity, then the ‘Law is Law’ slogan is simply dangerous. The Nazi laws can be questioned only on grounds of morality and politics. And morality-- if not brought within the purview of law will never get tested of it’s own validity in terms of human rights or gender sensitivity. The Supreme Court in a landmark judgement decided to overrule a tribal custom where rape had been a customary practice - by saying that there cannot be any customary practice which could override certain basic human rights of individuals. Therefore various moralities—belonging to the individual or groups—will never be tested if a rigorous demarcation is maintained between law & morality. But these are all arguments as to how law will mislead itself if it were to avoid the question of character in a case of sexual assault or a rape trial—and through this amendment—apparently-- it has taken that route; what remains to be known is the effect of this amendment on the citizen. 5. Amend Effect!! Let us see the consequences of this argument for the citizen- individual:. Once upon a time someone called Mendelville had proposed the models of the bad citizen and the good citizen. The model of the bad citizen entails – he recognizes only legal obligations, so is always on the lookout for a chance to violate it safely: the moment he makes it sure that he will not be caught in the act of breaking the law, he goes along. A good citizen irrespective of the vigil of the law, being inspired by moral obligations—does not violate prohibitions. Therefore following this if I were to have only legal obligations, I would not rape only when I’m sure I’ll be caught in the act of violation; the moment I can make it sure otherwise, I would be up with my talent. But it is sure we don’t rape not because we have a legal obligation, but also because a moral obligation not to do so. A binary distinction between legality and morality will produce more people with legal obligations only—and reinforce the model of the bad citizen-- and the consequence understandably is dangerous. Therefore, such an amendment which seeks to delete all questions regarding character or the moral history of an individual, indirectly by its long hand, discourages citizens to adopt ‘justified’ moral behaviour at all. Take the recent drive by the Kolkata police to arrest men folk who ‘annoy’ and ‘ harass’ women standing by the roadside – waitng for buses, through indecent proposals. A lot of men were arrested but lately the police were not so pleased to find that a lot of women folk do invite clients that way and for them wise women are being proposed and harassed from no where; the moment the police started picking some of these women too—there was protest from quarters; however it is the case in which the ordinary women themselves condemn the actions of some women for whom they are being propositioned and harassed. Such an amendment which seeks to delete all questions regarding character or the moral history of an individual, indirectly by its long hand, discourages citizens to adopt ‘justified’ moral behaviour at all. The conclusion that can be derived is this: - the woman who wears revealing clothes, tries to sleep her way to the top-- with criminals and politicians and gets assaulted, raped or murdered, and the woman who does not do so and goes all along with community’s ‘positive’ morality-- but still is harassed, assaulted or raped --- the law shall be doing grave injustice to the latter woman - if it places both of them on the same plane by not distinguishing between the differing behavioral dispositions of the two individuals. Then the second woman in particular is prone to do this kind of a reasoning, “well, if my actions, dispositions, or reputation does not matter and am placed equally with that woman, why should I at all lead a moral life in a community?” So our point is - this amendment discredits those who tend to live according to the ‘justified’ or justiciable moral standards of their communities and civic life, and discourages future moral behaviour from citizens because they will understand that that won’t be recognized. “If my honesty is not credited at some point of time—particularly in times of crisis, why should I at all be honest?” While this is one aspect, millions of women who have been forced for various external reasons to become- for example -prostitutes, would they be discriminated against? Here, the alleged rape of a prostitute raises difficult questions and needs extensive discussion and interpretation. If their character is considered—which will be immoral according to certain standards, then would raping them be considered a lesser crime? I can just attempt an answer here. I’ve proposed a matrix where the character test would be made gender neutral. And there is also a hint that character would be understood to stand for an inventory of stable dispositions of an individual over time emptied of it’s normative or moral judgemental contents. Following that – the question of immorality would have a descriptive reckoning. But if we want to retain the force of morality for possibility’s or simplicity’s sake, then invoking that --consider where the convict says the complainant woman is a prostitute and is therefore of established loose morals and is therefore lying; they have had usual paid sex, there was some brawl on the payment when the woman charged extra money after sex and he had denied ( nowhere do these people claim that raping the prostitutes has had been their right - as some wrongly contend). Now the courtly indictment for the other (male) side could be- “well, that the woman is of loose morals is okay, but how do you having been of strict morals visited her for sex?” When it becomes obvious that both can be constructed as immoral, the morality test is neutralised and other considerations resume. But I don’t think this is the right answer because the right answer at this point of time could not be imagined. The problem is this: sex with an ordinary so called ‘social’ adult woman depends upon her consent; sex with a prostitute depends on buying her consent—so it’s consent by contract but it’s actually an invisible contract and an informal agreement—particularly where prostitutes don’t get the protection of the law of contract. So the first thing is, the sexuality of a non-prostitute woman is not at all the same as that of the prostitute; the nature of consent-giving is absolutely different; this first has to be theorised adequately since it pulls us into grave problems: while it is easier for a ‘social’ woman to say I had not consented to having sex with this man, the burden on a prostitute is double: she has to prove two things at the same time—that the alleged rapist is neither her customer nor someone with whom she had wanted to have sex without payment; in other words, she had not consented, as well as she had not sold her consent.-i.e permitted. And given the absence of any document as to the payment, how would the man prove that he had indeed bought her consent by making an agreed payment? It is nearly impossible. (There is a similar danger from this side as well: what when a prostitute has sex with her client on agreed payment but demands more money, the man failing to give which, she threatens to file a charge of rape; the vulnerability is on both sides therefore. ) The solution has been proposed on the lines of recognition and legislation of prostitution but the protagonists have not been able to satisfactorily answer the objections recently raised in relation to the side effects of such legislations by Sanlaap— an N.G.O working on this. So far as this debate continues and a consensus is not arrived at, I think this can be easily argued that their rape cannot be addressed within the established parameters of rape because the law in India atleast does not take into account the vulnerability of the prostitutes and the difficult questions it raises. The Indian Laws’ audience and reciepient supposedly are the ‘gentle’ men and women. Is there then the necessity of formulating a separate section to address the rape/ sexual assault of the prostitutes – given the complex nature of their consent to having sex? Perhaps. But to start to recognise the rape of the prostitutes, one cannot but take into account their different life or living style; their identity has to be established: and this falls well in line with our main proposal and Anil Biswas is again correct. Armed with this correctness – we could recommend – for the time being-- the following -- 1) The amendment deleting section 155(4) should be nullified by a newer amendment and stress should be given on Section 151& 152 because they suffice to restore discursive justice by confronting harassment in the courtroom. 2) 155(4) should be revised to entail inquiry into the character of both the complainant and the alleged perpetrator of the sexual assault and provided the perpetrator is male - the inquiry should be made more stringent and more rigorously applied. 3) In case of complainants with sexual identities like the sex workers—legal protection should be doubled and rape in her case has to be theorized differently from the general civilian women given the complex nature of the formers’ sexual consent which can be bought. There is no proviso in Indian rape laws as to their double bind. The rape of a sex seller – to understand it differently—a beginning has to be made but that again has to account for her different ‘way of life or living -style’. In case of complainants with sexual identities like the sex sellers or sex ‘workers’: legal protection should be doubled and rape in her case has to be theorized differently from the rape of general civilian women-- given the complex nature of the formers’ sexual ‘permission’ ( and not consent)- which can be bought. This if recognized by the law of contract (a contract between them and their clients-- so the sex sellers can have legally rightful claims in the case of violation ), and they be given social rights—like access to social security and other welfare provisions, then we’ll just ‘begin’ to understand the rape of a sex worker; not before that and not now. Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From bhagwati at sarai.net Sat Mar 15 13:14:08 2008 From: bhagwati at sarai.net (bhagwati at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:14:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INVITATION TO A BOOK DISCUSSION Message-ID: <47DB7E48.3060803@sarai.net> hai all INVITATION TO A BOOK DISCUSSION On POWER AND CONTESTATION. INDIA SINCE 1989 by Dr. Aditya Nigam and Dr. Nivedita Menon Discussants: Prof. Tanika Sarkar, Dr. Ravi Vasudevan and Dr. Sarada Balagopalan Venue: Seminar Room, Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi 110054 Friday, March 28, 2008 4.00 pm Prof. Rajeev Bhargava will chair the discussion Please do join us Awadhendra Sharan In-Charge, Seminars, CSDS Aditya Nigam XB-7 Sah-Vikas Apts, 68 Patparganj, Delhi-110092 Tel: 2223 1855 (R), 23942199, 23951190 (O) From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 17:58:52 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:28:52 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] NSA Sweeping Up Domestic Data Message-ID: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120511973377523845.html NSA's Domestic Spying Grows As Agency Sweeps Up Data Terror Fight Blurs Line Over Domain; Tracking Email By SIOBHAN GORMAN March 10, 2008 WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Five years ago, Congress killed an experimental Pentagon antiterrorism program meant to vacuum up electronic data about people in the U.S. to search for suspicious patterns. Opponents called it too broad an intrusion on Americans' privacy, even after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. But the data-sifting effort didn't disappear. The National Security Agency, once confined to foreign surveillance, has been building essentially the same system. The central role the NSA has come to occupy in domestic intelligence gathering has never been publicly disclosed. But an inquiry reveals that its efforts have evolved to reach more broadly into data about people's communications, travel and finances in the U.S. than the domestic surveillance programs brought to light since the 2001 terrorist attacks. Congress now is hotly debating domestic spying powers under the main law governing U.S. surveillance aimed at foreign threats. An expansion of those powers expired last month and awaits renewal, which could be voted on in the House of Representatives this week. The biggest point of contention over the law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, is whether telecommunications and other companies should be made immune from liability for assisting government surveillance. Largely missing from the public discussion is the role of the highly secretive NSA in analyzing that data, collected through little-known arrangements that can blur the lines between domestic and foreign intelligence gathering. Supporters say the NSA is serving as a key bulwark against foreign terrorists and that it would be reckless to constrain the agency's mission. The NSA says it is scrupulously following all applicable laws and that it keeps Congress fully informed of its activities. According to current and former intelligence officials, the spy agency now monitors huge volumes of records of domestic emails and Internet searches as well as bank transfers, credit-card transactions, travel and telephone records. The NSA receives this so-called "transactional" data from other agencies or private companies, and its sophisticated software programs analyze the various transactions for suspicious patterns. Then they spit out leads to be explored by counterterrorism programs across the U.S. government, such as the NSA's own Terrorist Surveillance Program, formed to intercept phone calls and emails between the U.S. and overseas without a judge's approval when a link to al Qaeda is suspected. The NSA's enterprise involves a cluster of powerful intelligence-gathering programs, all of which sparked civil-liberties complaints when they came to light. They include a Federal Bureau of Investigation program to track telecommunications data once known as Carnivore, now called the Digital Collection System, and a U.S. arrangement with the world's main international banking clearinghouse to track money movements. The effort also ties into data from an ad-hoc collection of so-called "black programs" whose existence is undisclosed, the current and former officials say. Many of the programs in various agencies began years before the 9/11 attacks but have since been given greater reach. Among them, current and former intelligence officials say, is a longstanding Treasury Department program to collect individual financial data including wire transfers and credit-card transactions. It isn't clear how many of the different kinds of data are combined and analyzed together in one database by the NSA. An intelligence official said the agency's work links to about a dozen antiterror programs in all. A number of NSA employees have expressed concerns that the agency may be overstepping its authority by veering into domestic surveillance. And the constitutional question of whether the government can examine such a large array of information without violating an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy "has never really been resolved," said Suzanne Spaulding, a national-security lawyer who has worked for both parties on Capitol Hill. NSA officials say the agency's own investigations remain focused only on foreign threats, but it's increasingly difficult to distinguish between domestic and international communications in a digital era, so they need to sweep up more information. The Fourth Amendment In response to the Sept. 11 attacks, then NSA-chief Gen. Michael Hayden has said he used his authority to expand the NSA's capabilities under a 1981 executive order governing the agency. Another presidential order issued shortly after the attacks, the text of which is classified, opened the door for the NSA to incorporate more domestic data in its searches, one senior intelligence official said. The NSA "strictly follows laws and regulations designed to preserve every American's privacy rights under the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution," agency spokeswoman Judith Emmel said in a statement, referring to the protection against unreasonable searches and seizures. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which oversees the NSA in conjunction with the Pentagon, added in a statement that intelligence agencies operate "within an extensive legal and policy framework" and inform Congress of their activities "as required by the law." It pointed out that the 9/11 Commission recommended in 2004 that intelligence agencies analyze "all relevant sources of information" and share their databases. Two former officials familiar with the data-sifting efforts said they work by starting with some sort of lead, like a phone number or Internet address. In partnership with the FBI, the systems then can track all domestic and foreign transactions of people associated with that item -- and then the people who associated with them, and so on, casting a gradually wider net. An intelligence official described more of a rapid-response effect: If a person suspected of terrorist connections is believed to be in a U.S. city -- for instance, Detroit, a community with a high concentration of Muslim Americans -- the government's spy systems may be directed to collect and analyze all electronic communications into and out of the city. The haul can include records of phone calls, email headers and destinations, data on financial transactions and records of Internet browsing. The system also would collect information about other people, including those in the U.S., who communicated with people in Detroit. The information doesn't generally include the contents of conversations or emails. But it can give such transactional information as a cellphone's location, whom a person is calling, and what Web sites he or she is visiting. For an email, the data haul can include the identities of the sender and recipient and the subject line, but not the content of the message. Intelligence agencies have used administrative subpoenas issued by the FBI -- which don't need a judge's signature -- to collect and analyze such data, current and former intelligence officials said. If that data provided "reasonable suspicion" that a person, whether foreign or from the U.S., was linked to al Qaeda, intelligence officers could eavesdrop under the NSA's Terrorist Surveillance Program. The White House wants to give companies that assist government surveillance immunity from lawsuits alleging an invasion of privacy, but Democrats in Congress have been blocking it. The Terrorist Surveillance Program has spurred 38 lawsuits against companies. Current and former intelligence officials say telecom companies' concern comes chiefly because they are giving the government unlimited access to a copy of the flow of communications, through a network of switches at U.S. telecommunications hubs that duplicate all the data running through it. It isn't clear whether the government or telecom companies control the switches, but companies process some of the data for the NSA, the current and former officials say. [Graphic: see URL] On Friday, the House Energy and Commerce Committee released a letter warning colleagues to look more deeply into how telecommunications data are being accessed, citing an allegation by the head of a New York-based computer security firm that a wireless carrier that hired him was giving unfettered access to data to an entity called "Quantico Circuit." Quantico is a Marine base that houses the FBI Academy; senior FBI official Anthony DiClemente said the bureau "does not have 'unfettered access' to any communication provider's network." The political debate over the telecom information comes as intelligence agencies seek to change traditional definitions of how to balance privacy rights against investigative needs. Donald Kerr, the deputy director of national intelligence, told a conference of intelligence officials in October that the government needs new rules. Since many people routinely post details of their lives on social-networking sites such as MySpace, he said, their identity shouldn't need the same protection as in the past. Instead, only their "essential privacy," or "what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs," should be veiled, he said, without providing examples. Social-Network Analysis The NSA uses its own high-powered version of social-network analysis to search for possible new patterns and links to terrorism. The Pentagon's experimental Total Information Awareness program, later renamed Terrorism Information Awareness, was an early research effort on the same concept, designed to bring together and analyze as much and as many varied kinds of data as possible. Congress eliminated funding for the program in 2003 before it began operating. But it permitted some of the research to continue and TIA technology to be used for foreign surveillance. Some of it was shifted to the NSA -- which also is funded by the Pentagon -- and put in the so-called black budget, where it would receive less scrutiny and bolster other data-sifting efforts, current and former intelligence officials said. "When it got taken apart, it didn't get thrown away," says a former top government official familiar with the TIA program. Two current officials also said the NSA's current combination of programs now largely mirrors the former TIA project. But the NSA offers less privacy protection. TIA developers researched ways to limit the use of the system for broad searches of individuals' data, such as requiring intelligence officers to get leads from other sources first. The NSA effort lacks those controls, as well as controls that it developed in the 1990s for an earlier data-sweeping attempt. Sen. Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat and member of the Senate Intelligence Committee who led the charge to kill TIA, says "the administration is trying to bring as much of the philosophy of operation Total Information Awareness as it can into the programs they're using today." The issue has been overshadowed by the fight over telecoms' immunity, he said. "There's not been as much discussion in the Congress as there ought to be." Opportunity for Debate But Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri, the ranking Republican on the committee, said by email his committee colleagues have had "ample opportunity for debate" behind closed doors and that each intelligence program has specific legal authorization and oversight. He cautioned against seeing a group of intelligence programs as "a mythical 'big brother' program," adding, "that's not what is happening today." READ THE RULING While the Fourth Amendment guarantees "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures," the legality of data-sweeping relies on the government's interpretation of a 1979 Supreme Court ruling allowing records of phone calls -- but not actual conversations -- to be collected without a warrant. [Read the ruling.1: http://supreme.justia.com/us/442/735/case.html] The legality of data-sweeping relies largely on the government's interpretation of a 1979 Supreme Court ruling allowing records of phone calls -- but not actual conversations -- to be collected without a judge issuing a warrant. Multiple laws require a court order for so-called "transactional'" records of electronic communications, but the 2001 Patriot Act lowered the standard for such an order in some cases, and in others made records accessible using FBI administrative subpoenas called "national security letters." [Read the ruling.2 - http://supreme.justia.com/us/442/735/case.html ] A debate is brewing among legal and technology scholars over whether there should be privacy protections when a wide variety of transactional data are brought together to paint what is essentially a profile of an individual's behavior. "You know everything I'm doing, you know what happened, and you haven't listened to any of the contents" of the communications, said Susan Landau, co-author of a book on electronic privacy and a senior engineer at Sun Microsystems Laboratories. "Transactional information is remarkably revelatory." Ms. Spaulding, the national-security lawyer, said it's "extremely questionable" to assume Americans don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy for data such as the subject-header of an email or a Web address from an Internet search, because those are more like the content of a communication than a phone number. "These are questions that require discussion and debate," she said. "This is one of the problems with doing it all in secret." Gen. Hayden, the former NSA chief and now Central Intelligence Agency director, in January 2006 publicly defended the activities of the Terrorist Surveillance Program after it was disclosed by the New York Times. He said it was "not a driftnet over Lackawanna or Fremont or Dearborn, grabbing all communications and then sifting them out." Rather, he said, it was carefully targeted at terrorists. However, some intelligence officials now say the broader NSA effort amounts to a driftnet. A portion of the activity, the NSA's access to domestic phone records, was disclosed by a USA Today article in 2006. The NSA, which President Truman created in 1952 through a classified presidential order to be America's ears abroad, has for decades been the country's largest and most secretive intelligence agency. The order confined NSA spying to "foreign governments," and during the Cold War the NSA developed a reputation as the world's premier code-breaking operation. But in the 1970s, the NSA and other intelligence agencies were found to be using their spy tools to monitor Americans for political purposes. That led to the original FISA legislation in 1978, which included an explicit ban on the NSA eavesdropping in the U.S. without a warrant. Big advances in telecommunications and database technology led to unprecedented data-collection efforts in the 1990s. One was the FBI's Carnivore program, which raised fears when it was in disclosed in 2000 that it might collect telecommunications information about law-abiding individuals. But the ground shifted after 9/11. Requests for analysis of any data that might hint at terrorist activity flooded from the White House and other agencies into NSA's Fort Meade, Md., headquarters outside Washington, D.C., one former NSA official recalls. At the time, "We're scrambling, trying to find any piece of data we can to find the answers," the official said. The 2002 congressional inquiry into the 9/11 attacks criticized the NSA for holding back information, which NSA officials said they were doing to protect the privacy of U.S. citizens. "NSA did not want to be perceived as targeting individuals in the United States" and considered such surveillance the FBI's job, the inquiry concluded. FBI-NSA Projects The NSA quietly redefined its role. Joint FBI-NSA projects "expanded exponentially," said Jack Cloonan, a longtime FBI veteran who investigated al Qaeda. He pointed to national-security letter requests: They rose from 8,500 in 2000 to 47,000 in 2005, according to a Justice Department inspector general's report last year. It also said the letters permitted the potentially illegal collection of thousands of records of people in the U.S. from 2003-05. Last Wednesday, FBI Director Robert Mueller said the bureau had found additional instances in 2006. It isn't known how many Americans' data have been swept into the NSA's systems. The Treasury, for instance, built its database "to look at all the world's financial transactions" and gave the NSA access to it about 15 years ago, said a former NSA official. The data include domestic and international money flows between bank accounts and credit-card information, according to current and former intelligence officials. The NSA receives from Treasury weekly batches of this data and adds it to a database at its headquarters. Prior to 9/11, the database was used to pursue specific leads, but afterward, the effort was expanded to hunt for suspicious patterns. Through the Treasury, the NSA also can access the database of the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, or Swift, the Belgium-based clearinghouse for records of international transactions between financial institutions, current and former officials said. The U.S. acknowledged in 2006 that the CIA and Treasury had access to Swift's database, but said the NSA's Terrorism Surveillance Program was separate and that the NSA provided only "technical assistance." A Treasury spokesman said the agency had no comment. Through the Department of Homeland Security, airline passenger data also are accessed and analyzed for suspicious patterns, such as five unrelated people who repeatedly fly together, current and former intelligence officials said. Homeland Security shares information with other agencies only "on a limited basis," spokesman Russ Knocke said. NSA gets access to the flow of data from telecommunications switches through the FBI, according to current and former officials. It also has a partnership with FBI's Digital Collection system, providing access to Internet providers and other companies. The existence of a shadow hub to copy information about AT&T Corp. telecommunications in San Francisco is alleged in a lawsuit against AT&T filed by the civil-liberties group Electronic Frontier Foundation, based on documents provided by a former AT&T official. In that lawsuit, a former technology adviser to the Federal Communications Commission says in a sworn declaration that there could be 15 to 20 such operations around the country. Current and former intelligence officials confirmed a domestic network of hubs, but didn't know the number. "As a matter of policy and law, we can not discuss matters that are classified," said FBI spokesman John Miller. The budget for the NSA's data-sifting effort is classified, but one official estimated it surpasses $1 billion. The FBI is requesting to nearly double the budget for the Digital Collection System in 2009, compared with last year, requesting $42 million. "Not only do demands for information continue to increase, but also the requirement to facilitate information sharing does," says a budget justification document, noting an "expansion of electronic surveillance activity in frequency, sophistication, and linguistic needs." Write to Siobhan Gorman at siobhan.gorman at wsj.com From anoopkheri at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 22:42:17 2008 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:12:17 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Meeting of INSIGHT STUDY CIRCLE (16th March) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, Jaibheem INSIGHT Study Circle invites you for a meeting *Guest Speakers:* - *Prof* *Kimberlé W. Crenshaw** and Prof Harris **(University of California, Los Angeles)* *Venue: - Indian Social Institute,* *[10, Institutional Area, Lodi Road, New Delhi]* *Time: - 3.00 pm to 5.00 pm* *Date: - 16 March 2008 (Sunday)* * **Programme: - *Our guest speakers will speak briefly on Affirmative Actions and Civil Rights Movement in USA. After that there will be an interactive session on the situation of Dalits, particularly Dalit youth and Students. * **Prof Kimberlé Crenshaw* teaches *Civil Rights* and other courses in critical race studies and constitutional law. Her primary scholarly interests center around race and the law, and she was a founder and has been a leader in the intellectual movement called Critical Race Theory. *Prof. Harris* teaches Constitutional Law, Civil Rights, Employment Discrimination and Critical Race Theory. She is the author of leading works in Critical Race Theory including the highly influential Whiteness as Property (*Harv. L. Rev*.). Her work has also taken up the relationship among race, gender and property. * * *INSIGHT: YOUNG VOICES is a bimonthly Dalit Youth Magazine. Since inception, it has been organizing meetings and public talks on the issues related with the Dalit community both inside university campuses and outside. One of the prime objectives of INSIGHT group has been to create a platform where Dalit students can share their views and are also able to interact with scholars, academicians, activists, organizations that have been working on the issues related with the Dalit community*. *Towards this objective, we have formed a Study Circle that will organize a meeting on any one particular issue on the First Sunday of every Month. Through this we are hoping to bring Dalit students, activists, professionals and researchers on one platform to interact with each other. We encourage young Dalit students/researchers to share their work with us during the meetings of Study Circle. * * Our Next meeting of study Circle will be organized on * * Date :- 6th April ( 11 am to 1 pm) * *Venue:- Indian Social Institute* *Topic:- Non-implementation of Special Component Plan for Dalits * ** For more information please contact our Study Circle Coordinators: - Dr Ajita Rao [ajita_nav at yahoo.com] Anoop Kumar [anoopkheri at gmail.com] * * regards Anoop 0-9313432410 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Mar 16 12:12:36 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <483989.60365.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Asit, By reading your mails I feel We are grown,trees are grown,animals are grown. What is the difference? One should respect elders forget about the rest of the non-sense. While referring to LATE personalities you should quote LATE WITH SHRI. Late shri Nehru died long back and he was our beloved INDIAN prime minister not only that he was a freedom fighter FIRST. That is the back ground and 2nd late Shri Motilal himself was a leading lawyer and hence do have money. There should not be any regrets to anybody over this. >>castiesm communalism feudalism hierarchy and fuedalism . I think you never come across these terms practically but what I feel is you are just talking about these words from your schoolbooks, the anglo-indian dictionary that your used to refer to learn english and then by observing the trends on modern day media. So please dont use Shri Nehru and his background. Regards, Dhatri. >>using terms like kashmiri pandit kasmiri is very sectarian as if the >>kashmiri pandits are different species than others this also >>justifies castiesm communalism feudalism hierarchy and fuedalism >asit On 3/9/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > this has come to ownership and copyright about kashmir i would like to > be enightened who has the copyright to speak on kaskmir > asit Asit asitreds wrote: justasmall rajoinder if everyone is born equal with equal capacities how many dalits, landless labourers and poor kasmiris have madr significant contribution like kashmiripandits why doesnt every kashmiri gets a barrister degree like jawahar lal nehru the reason is simple his father moti lal had the money to send him abroad why is it so that only kasmiripandits excel what is the science behind this possibly its a super human race my understaing of socities teach me only the elites execel because they have the resources to achiving exelllence unless we believe in they are super natural i think this has to do about the class postion of kashmiri pandits now the last query who has the copy right to speak about kashmir asit On 3/9/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > I hope you are not comparing the struggle in Kashmir with that of students' > revolt in France. > In Kashmir, there is one more oppressor which has been given a clean chit by > the movie in question. The independent voice has been severely oppressed by > certain Islamic fundamentalist groups. The women have been attacked for not > adhereing to so-called Islamic code almost foreign to Kashmiri culture. The > al-qaeda kind zellots have thrown acid on the faces of women for not > covering their face in public. Not only Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and > moderate Muslims have been murdered in the past and very often by non-state > agents. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Asit asitreds" > To: "Wali Arifi" > Cc: "reader-list" > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:40 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sanjay Kak on Ram Guha's Book > > > > though ihavent read ram guhas book but sanjay kaks critiqe is brilliant > > the problem with liberal historiography is the author doesnt take a > > stand lets not forget the famous dictum of parisian students in 1968 > > its important from which position you are speaking from the side of > > oppressed or the opressor > > in this sense sanjay kak has beutifully deconstructed ram guhas > > irresponsible nuetrality > > asit > > > > On 3/5/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > >> In continuation of the recent posting of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's review of > >> India after Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy > >> by Ramachandra Guha · Macmillan, 900 pp, £25.00 > >> > >> ------------------------------------------ > >> > >> A Chronicle for India Shining > >> > >> by Sanjay Kak > >> * > >> Biblio* July-August 2007 > >> > >> Ramachandra Guha is among Indias' most visible intellectuals, and his > >> newspaper columns and television appearances mark him off from the more > >> reticent world of academic historians. At 900 pages his new book India > >> after > >> Gandhi is not shy of claiming its own space on the bookshelf: from it's > >> title page, where it announces itself as "The History of the World's > >> Largest > >> Democracy" (not A History, mind you, but The History); to it's end > >> papers, > >> which tells us that the author's entire career seems in retrospect to > >> have > >> been preparation for the writing of this book. > >> > >> So first the happy tidings from the back of the book: things in India > >> (after > >> Gandhi, that is) are overall okay. They could be better, he agrees, but > >> for > >> now we must be satisfied with what the Hindi cinema comic actor Johny > >> Walker > >> kept us amused with: phiphty-phiphty. For those hungry for a modern > >> historical understanding – or even an argued opinion – on 60 years of the > >> Indian Republic, this piece of dissimulation is an early sign of things > >> to > >> come. > >> > >> There are some notable features of the paths by which The Historian > >> arrives > >> at this facile and frivolous conclusion of fifty-fifty. The first is that > >> all that is troubling and challenging in the short history of this > >> republic > >> is co-opted into the nationalistic narratives of 'success' and 'victory', > >> turning our very wounds into badges of honour. "At no other time or place > >> in > >> human history" he says, "have social conflicts been so richly diverse, so > >> vigorously articulated, so eloquently manifest in art and literature, or > >> addressed with such directness by the political system and the media". > >> > >> I can think of at least five issues that have bedeviled India all the way > >> from 1947 which simply fail this assertion: Kashmir, Manipur, Nagaland, > >> Naxalism, and of course, Dalit rights. These are at the head of a very > >> long > >> list which seriously challenge Guhas' assertion that the Indian nation > >> has > >> been successful at even addressing conflicts, leave alone dealing or > >> managing them. I use the word 'successful' here because justice has not > >> even > >> appeared on the horizon on most of these fronts. > >> > >> Right at the outset of the book he lets us know that the real success > >> story > >> of modern India lies "not in the domain of economics, but in that of > >> politics". So it's not the software boom that he offers for approval, but > >> Indias' political success as a democracy. Politics for him is, in the > >> main, > >> narrowly defined, and remains the domain of parliamentary politics. From > >> Prologue to Epilogue, Guha vicariously digs out every negative prediction > >> ever made for India's future as a democracy, and then since India has had > >> elections for 50 years, turns it into a vindication of it's democracy. > >> > >> No surprise then, that it's the romance of the Indian elections for which > >> he > >> reserves his unqualified enthusiasm. Every General Election since 1951 is > >> celebrated in tourist-brochure speak, so by 1967, elections no longer are > >> a > >> "top-dressing on inhospitable soil", they are "part of Indian life, a > >> festival with it's own set of rituals, enacted every five years". As > >> evidence we are offered statistics of large turnouts, and accounts of > >> colourful posters and slogans. By the 1971 polls, the logistics are > >> offered > >> in giddy detail: "342,944 polling stations, each station with forty-three > >> different items, from ballot papers and boxes to indelible ink and > >> sealing > >> wax; 282 million ballot papers printed, 7 million more than were > >> needed…". > >> > >> To so easily substitute 'election' for 'democracy', to be preoccupied > >> with > >> the procedural – rather than the substantive¬ – aspects of democracy, and > >> indeed of politics, is conceptually problematic, and not a mistake any > >> serious scholar of politics would make. The obsession with parliamentary > >> democracy, with its first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all bias, also > >> means > >> that descriptions of India's recent political history remain here focused > >> on > >> those in Parliamentary Power, and at best, those in Parliamentary > >> Opposition. But when he has to deal with the more fundamental questions > >> raised about Indian democracy from outside of this, by the Naxalites in > >> the > >> 1960s, or by Jaya Prakash Narayan and Sampoorn Kranti in the 1970s, or > >> indeed the Narmada Bachao Andolan in the 1990s, Guha seems to lose his > >> way, > >> and his enthusiasm for 'politics' is more subdued. > >> > >> A second clue as to how he reaches here seems to lie in methodology, and > >> Guha explicitly states his: to privilege primary sources over > >> retrospective > >> readings, and "thus to interpret an event of, say, 1957, in terms of what > >> is > >> known in 1957, rather than 2007". One of the reasons he cites for this is > >> the paucity in India of a good history of India after Gandhi: by training > >> and temperament, he says of Indian historians, they have "restricted > >> themselves to the period before Independence". So combine this ascribed > >> lack > >> of historical interest with Guhas' own stated preference for 'primary' > >> sources: together they lay out before him a vast – and clearly > >> unchallenged > >> – canvas. > >> > >> This is a curious methodological assertion. With the exception of some > >> primary sources (and some first-time sources, like the PN Haksar papers) > >> the > >> bulk of the book seems to draw upon the excellent work of at least two > >> generations of historians and social scientists. The copious Notes at the > >> back of the book happily acknowledge at least some of this to be so. With > >> the work before us of Sumit Sarkar, Partho Chatterjee, Rajni Kothari, > >> Tanika > >> Sarkar, Yogendra Yadav, Zoya Hassan, Christopher Jafferlot (amongst > >> others), > >> why does Guha pronounce this area to be a tabula rasa, one that this book > >> alone bravely sets out to fill? > >> > >> Ramchandra Guha's earlier book on Verrier Elwin was proof of his > >> dexterous > >> use of archival material, and over the years his newspaper columns have > >> been > >> rich with his joyful – even eccentric¬ – use of the archive. Here too he > >> locates some nuggets, which its sources may now well want returned to the > >> darkness of the archive. In 1944, the Bombay Plan, mooted by a group of > >> leading industrialists, making a case for 'an enlargement of the positive > >> functions of the State', going so far as to say that 'the distinction > >> between capitalism and socialism has lost much of it's significance from > >> a > >> practical standpoint'. In 1966, as groups of Mizo National Front rebels > >> appear ready to storm at least two towns in Mizoram, the strafing of > >> Lungleh > >> by the air force, the first time that air power had been used by the > >> Indian > >> State against it's own citizens. Or in 1977 India's favourite > >> businessman, > >> JRD Tata, speaking to a foreign journalist during the dark days of the > >> Emergency, finding that things had gone too far, adding that 'The > >> parliamentary system is not suited to our needs'. > >> > >> But this history by bricolage inevitably ends up with embarrassingly > >> ahistoric conclusions. For example, to bolster his own naïve view that > >> "Rural India was pervaded by an air of timelessness" at the time of > >> Independence, he quotes a British official writing in an official > >> publication in 1944: 'there is the same plainness of life, the same > >> wrestling with uncertainties of climate… the same love of simple games, > >> sport and songs, the same neighbourly helpfulness…" I don't doubt that > >> this > >> qualifies as 'contemporary narrative', but surely even within the > >> impoverished state of Indian social science that Guha seems to encounter, > >> he > >> has heard of enough respectable scholarship, that contests – and even > >> confounds – this static image of the "Indian" countryside? The peasant > >> rebellions, the tribal movements, the caste conflicts? > >> > >> What this often results in is a naïve – even absurd – acceptance of what > >> is > >> described to us by the privileged 'contemporary narrative'. "Living away > >> from home helped expand the mind, as in the case of a farm labourer from > >> UP > >> who became a factory worker in Bombay and learnt to love the city's > >> museums, > >> its collections of Gandhara art especially". This is no doubt true for > >> this > >> exceptional individual, but does this aid our understanding of the > >> processes > >> of rural deprivation and urbanization that translate into the journey > >> from > >> village in Uttar Pradesh to textile factory in Mumbai? (And where did > >> that > >> worker go, refined sensibilities and all, once the textile mills began to > >> shut down in the 1980s?) > >> > >> And when Nehru formally inaugurates the Bhakra dam in 1954, "for 150 > >> miles > >> the boisterous celebration spread like a chain reaction along the great > >> canal…" Because Guha is committed to understanding 1954 in its own terms, > >> we're often left just there, in 1954, without the illuminating oxygen of > >> contemporary scholarship on the Bhakra dam and its consequences, for both > >> the people displaced by the dam (still without re-settlement 50 years on) > >> or > >> for the land and waters of Punjab (now feeling the ill effects of the > >> massive hydraulic meddling and its handmaiden, the 'Green Revolution'.) > >> At > >> such moments we must be forgiven for feeling that we are rifling through > >> the > >> brittle pages of an official, sarkari history of India. > >> > >> Where official archives and histories don't exist, the excessive – and > >> selective –reliance on newspapers and journals seems even less > >> convincing. > >> Who amongst us has not read the newspaper of the day about an issue or > >> event > >> that we know about and understand, and not despaired at the errors and > >> biases inherent? Who amongst us has not shuddered at the thought of some > >> future historian trawling the pages of the Times of India and the Indian > >> Express and forming a narrative of what is happening in India in 2007? > >> > >> Through the book, Guha's writing on Kashmir, for example, is peppered > >> with > >> insights from a journal called Thought, apparently published out of > >> Delhi. > >> Forgive me, but what was Thought? Insights extracted from such narratives > >> can be useful to the historian, but also highly problematic, unless we > >> can > >> contextualize them, compare them with other assessments, and understand > >> the > >> nature of the biases we are dealing with. Otherwise we are simply left > >> with > >> arbitrary assessments of shaky provenance: in1965, of Lal Bahadur > >> Shastri, > >> second Prime Minister of India, who gets a positive appraisal by the > >> Guardian newspapers' Delhi correspondent, as well as a condescending > >> exchange of letters between two ex-ICS men: "I can't imagine Shastri has > >> the > >> stature to hold things together... What revolting times we live in!" > >> > >> Guhas' selective dependence on 'contemporary' narratives, and his > >> distaste > >> of politics that is not 'parliamentary' comes through most clearly in his > >> treatment of Jaya Prakash Narayan. He musters the following: RK Patil, a > >> former ICS officer who asks of JP: "What is the scope of Satyagraha and > >> direct action in a formal democracy like ours…? By demanding the > >> dismissal > >> of a duly elected assembly, argued Patil, the Bihar agitation is both > >> unconstitutional and undemocratic". To this Guha adds the opinions of the > >> "eminent Quaker" Joe Elder, who hectors JP on launching a mass movement > >> "without a cadre of disciplined non-violent volunteers". And finally, > >> Indira > >> Gandhi herself, who dismisses JP as a "political naif… who would have > >> been > >> better off sticking to social work." With such a slanted set of > >> 'contemporary' narratives, it's no surprise who Guha is able to pin the > >> blame on for the tumult of those years, asserting that the honours for > >> imposing the Emergency should henceforth be equally shared between Indira > >> Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Narayan! > >> > >> For the first 600 pages of his chronicle, Guha piles up the bricks and > >> artifacts of this structure sort of chronologically, 1947 through to > >> 1987. > >> Then quite arbitrarily he announces a change in tack, moving from > >> 'history' > >> to 'historically informed journalism'. He approvingly cites the > >> thirty-year > >> rule of archives, adding grandly, that as a historian "one also needs a > >> generation's distance. That much time must elapse before one can place > >> those > >> events in a pattern, to see them away and apart, away from the din and > >> clamour of the present". > >> The claim of 'history' and 'historically informed journalism' is at once > >> too > >> strong for either section of the book. Because if indeed the section from > >> 1987 onwards is 'historically informed' then shouldn't history actually > >> inform our understanding? Should this method not prepare us for some > >> things: > >> the emergence of the non-Congress governments; of Kanshi Ram-Mayawati and > >> the BSP; for Liberalisation and India's relationship with the > >> International > >> Financial Institutions? Why then does each of these appear on the horizon > >> of > >> this book fully formed, with no lead-ins or alerts? > >> > >> The relentless, even plodding attempt at being comprehensive, and the > >> dizzying collation of disparate facts, seems to tire Guha out too, and > >> then > >> his usually elegant prose begins to flag, and the ideas it carries become > >> tedious, eventually grinding down to a sort-of Year Book listing of > >> significant facts and figures, people and events. In a chapter called > >> 'Rights' (and which in news-magazine style is followed by sections called > >> 'Riots', 'Rulers' and 'Riches'), a brief 28 pages races us through Caste, > >> the Mandal Commission and Dalit assertion; and an update on the conflicts > >> in > >> Assam, Punjab, Kashmir, Manipur, and Nagaland! But wait, there is also > >> demography and gender – in a single paragraph that begins with "there was > >> also a vigorous feminist movement" and then deals with the women's > >> movement > >> in 15 lines. Tribal rights fares a little better than Women's rights (or > >> perhaps worse, I'd say fifty-fifty): it just crosses a page, much of it > >> about the Narmada Bachao Andolan, where the 18 year old history of the > >> Andolan is reduced to it's leader, "a woman named Medha Patkar", who we > >> are > >> told, "organized the tribals in a series of colourful marches… to demand > >> justice from the mighty government of India". And then, "The leader > >> herself > >> engaged in several long fasts to draw attention to the sufferings of her > >> flock". > >> > >> This is India's most well-known non-violent resistance movement, engaged > >> in > >> articulating the largest internal displacement in our recent history, and > >> in > >> case you had missed anything, it's her flock. Without prejudice to either > >> Vogue or Cosmopolitan, this condescension could probably never even make > >> it > >> to their pages, and defies belief in a work of history written in the > >> 21st > >> century. Apart from the fact that the NBA is only one of the hundreds of > >> people's resistance movements in India, many of whom are in the front > >> ranks > >> of the struggle against neo-imperialism. > >> > >> Quite early in the book, in assessing the historian KN Pannikar's > >> opinions > >> of Mao Zedong, Guha reminds us that "Intellectuals have always had a > >> curious > >> fascination for the man of power". He then puts on display his own > >> unseemly > >> fascination with Power, with History from Above. (With a few exceptions, > >> even the small selection of haphazardly organized pictures in the first > >> edition of the book seems fixated by the man – or woman – of power, from > >> Lord Mountbatten to Amitabh Bachhan.) This I suppose is symptomatic, this > >> disinterest, even condescension, towards the fragile and powerless, and > >> this > >> is what finally prevents his version of history from illuminating our > >> times. > >> Because the powerless may not always be so, and 'historically informed > >> journalism' would need to tell us what brought Laloo Prasad Yadav, and > >> Mayawati to us. Even what preceded Medha Patkar and the Narmada Bachao > >> Andolan. (What forms of Adivasi and other organization made their > >> movement > >> possible? And what in its turn did the NBA make possible, not in the > >> struggle against large dams alone, but in creating a climate in which the > >> resistance to SEZs can be contemplated today?) > >> > >> For in the privileging of the 'primary', the question is, what are your > >> 'primary' sources? Will they be restricted to the libraries of the India > >> Office, London and the Nehru Memorial, New Delhi, or are they going to go > >> beyond? Will we, for example, look at Urdu papers in Srinagar (and > >> Muzafarabad) to understand what was happening in Kashmir from 1947 to > >> 1987? > >> Will we look at Dalit Hindi language little magazines to understand the > >> phenomenon of Kanshi Ram and Mayawati? Because if we don't do that, The === message truncated === --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 12:50:24 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:50:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] film fest Message-ID: <98f331e00803160020o7df35d07s23ca6674cd1eb3a4@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, The Cinemela Collectives announces the 3rd edition of CINEMELA (a festival of short films & documentaries by YOUNG filmmakers and those who consider themselves YOUNG), to be organized at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi from 11-13 April, 2008. (visit cinemela.blogspot.com for details) The previous editions of Cinemela festival received overwhelming response from all quarters and the Limca Book of World Records has recognized the festival for its uniqueness. The festival intends to take the films created by young artists to the young audience and is an effort to make a space for the new creative voices from all over the world which is denied by the crude logic of media industry. We believe that these woks deserve attention for their ability to go beyond local issues and provincial tastes while simultaneously opening up a window onto a diverse culture. Cinemela is designed to serve as a glass through which audience may have an opportunity to glimpse important aspects of rapidly emerging creative sensibilities which are all set to conquer the future. Keeping this in view, we plan to take the selected films from the festival to other campuses and places. The young films, despite the diverse styles and subjects, tell something about the cultures from which they spring, and have the capability to make an impression with their individuality. The festival aspires to provide an ideal opportunity to enjoy the pleasure of regional distinctiveness through films and rejoice in their universal appeal. With the images and sounds of these films, we learn about other portions of the world and witness the ascendancy of new artists to creative acclaim. All are invited to be submerged in an experience of dissimilarity, to be lost in strange spheres, to perceive unfamiliar languages, to observe unusual styles, to discover new voices and visions. The festival also provides a platform where interactions among veteran film persons, young filmmakers, audience and others can be possible in informal manner. This aims to satisfy our curiosity, assuage our suspicion, arouse our sympathies, and heighten our appreciation. We are hopeful that an inevitable degree of knowing calculation will enter into the experience on both sides. We invite the young filmmakers and those who consider themselves young in the field and the spirit to send their film to the festival. We also invite the cine-lovers to visit an arena where the future of cinema is taking shape. Regards, Prakash Kumar Ray www.cinemela.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 18:11:57 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:11:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] To My Friends ... Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803160541t1bf700f0h51c0c28ba3e7a23f@mail.gmail.com> To my friends…. (Kashmiri Pandits protest against Terrorist Yasin Malik of the JKLF) http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/03/to-my-friends.html From marinar at artserve.net Mon Mar 17 04:49:18 2008 From: marinar at artserve.net (Marina Vishmidt) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:19:18 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Contrapolis; or, Creativity and Enclosure in the Cities Message-ID: <20080316161918.A0BB0220@resin17.mta.everyone.net> “Contrapolis; or, Creativity and Enclosure in the Cities” Rotterdam, 26-27 March 2008 http://www.enoughroomforspace.org/projects/view/15 Jan van Eyck Academie: http:www.janvaneyck.nl NAi www.nai.nl Poortgebouw www.poortgebouw.nl Rotterdam http://www.cntraveller.com/Guides/Netherlands/Rotterdam/ How is the contemporary urban experience defined, delimited and transfigured by 'creative city' policies and the 'experience economy'? Are there distinctions to be made between the 'creativity' of capital and the 'creativity' of inhabitants of cities who resist displacement and the re-packaging of global cities as sites of elite consumption, mobility and security? Using concepts drawn from recent political philosophy and radical history such as 'commons' and 'enclosures', Contrapolis will address these and other related themes, such as privatisation of social housing, public space praxis, community action, the Olympics, and art within and against gentrification. The two days will consist of workshops, walks, an exhibition and a public debate. Debate, NAi, 27/3: with Merijn Oudenampsen, Damon Rich/CUP, Pier Vittorio Aureli, Urban Subjects, Peter Blakeney and Christine Schoeffer, Anthony Iles, Daniel van der Velden, Loïc Wacquant and Haegue Yang. Exhibition, NAi, 26/3 - 29/3: Maria Eichhorn, Anja Kirschner, Spectacle, Claire Fontaine, CUP, Haegue Yang, Urban Subjects and Alessandra Chila. Workshops, Poortgebouw, 26/3 and 27/3: the three workshops will be moderated by Merijn Oudenampsen, Maria Theodorou, Marina Vishmidt and Diana Ibanez Lopez, with presentations from Merijn Oudenampsen, Maria Theodorou, Anthony Iles and Sitesize. Walks in Nieuwe Crooswijk, Delfshaven, Heijplaat and/or Zuid, 26/3 and 27/3: guided by Andreas Mueller, Marjolijn Dijkman, Menno Janssen and Krijn Christiansen. An accompanying brochure includes essays from participants - Merijn Oudenampsen, Jeff Derksen, Loïc Wacquant, Anthony Iles, Poortgebouw and Iain Boal -as well as other relevant authors like Neil Smith and Wim Cuyvers and images from Anthony Iles/Max Reeves, Savage Messiah and Alessandra Chila. Online sources, when especially symptomatic or edifying, have also been included. Concept and design praxis by Metahaven. Website hosting by Enough Room for Space. Contrapolis is initiated and organised by Marina Vishmidt, in cooperation with the Jan van Eyck Academie, the NAi and the Poortgebouw. _____________________________________________________________ More contemporary art at http://www.art-online.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From markcmarino at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 12:06:24 2008 From: markcmarino at gmail.com (Mark Marino) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:36:24 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Electronic Literature: New Horizons For The Literary by N. Katherine Hayles. Message-ID: <287213f30803162336ucbf2ae2jac23db5ffd534653@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Here's some news about an exciting new elit publication: ** N. Katherine Hayles' new work, Electronic Literature: New Horizons for the Literary, offers a starter kit for bringing electronic literature into the classroom. This publication, from Notre Dame Press, brings together, for the first time, a comprehensive guide to digital narrative and poetry, studies of key works, a CD with a wide range of examples, and a companion website that features discussion and new essays. < http://newhorizons.eliterature.org/index.php> * ELC 1 in Every Edition: Included with the book is a CD, The Electronic Literature Collection, Volume 1 (ELC 1), containing sixty new and recent works of electronic literature with keyword index, authors' notes, and editorial headnotes. Representing multiple modalities of electronic writing--hypertext fiction, kinetic poetry, generative and combinatory forms, network writing, codework, 3D, narrative animations, installation pieces, and Flash poetry--the ELC 1 encompasses comparatively low-tech work alongside heavily coded pieces. The ELC 1 can also be accessed online at < http://collection.eliterature.org/1/> * New Horizons Website: Complementing the text and the CD-ROM is this website offering resources for teachers and students, including sample syllabi, original essays, author biographies, and useful links. Together, the three elements provide an exceptional pedagogical opportunity. * Hayles' Approach: Hayles develops a theoretical framework for understanding how electronic literature both draws on the print tradition and requires new reading and interpretive strategies. Grounding her approach in the evolutionary dynamic between humans and technology, Hayles argues that neither the body nor the machine should be given absolute theoretical priority. Rather, she focuses on the interconnections between embodied writers and users and the intelligent machines that perform electronic texts. Through close readings of important works, Hayles demonstrates that a new mode of narration is emerging that differs significantly from previous models. Key to her argument is the observation that almost all contemporary literature has its genesis as electronic files, so that print becomes a specific mode for electronic text rather than an entirely different medium. Hayles illustrates the implications of this condition with three contemporary novels that bear the mark of the digital. Electronic Literature: New Horizons For The Literary can be ordered from Notre Dame Press and Amazon.com. Contact person: Marjorie C. Luesebrink. Luesebr1 at ix.netcom.com Mark Marino Communications Electronic Literature Organization -- Writing Program University of Southern California http://WriterResponseTheory.org http://CriticalCodeStudies.com -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sunil at mahiti.org Mon Mar 17 13:46:38 2008 From: sunil at mahiti.org (Sunil Abraham) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:46:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] XXXth SARO Lecture by Lawrence Liang Message-ID: <1205741798.5736.58.camel@sunil-laptop> Dear all, We are pleased to inform you that the XXXth SARO Lecture will be held on 27th March 2008, Thursday. The lecture will be delivered by Lawrence Liang, Founder, Alternative Law Forum, Bangalore, India. Lawrence Liang is also a principal researcher on the IDRC funded project "Towards Détente in Media Piracy" See the links for more information on the project :- http://www.crdi.ca/en/ev-120374-201_104333-1-IDRC_ADM_INFO.html, http://intranet.idrc.ca/en/ev-118390-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html The title of his lecture is "Archive fever and Copyright Deliriums". Digital technologies has redefined the idea of the Archive, with an explosion of Archival efforts. This presentation attempts to raise questions about what it means to think of Archive Fever in the contemporary, and its links to questions of ownership and access to knowledge. Relevant websites: www.altlawforum.org and www.pad.ma About Lawrence Liang Lawrence Liang is a researcher with the Alternative Law Forum, Bangalore. His key areas of interest are law, technology and culture, and the politics of copyright. He has been working closely with Sarai/CSDS, New Delhi on a joint research project, Intellectual Property and the Knowledge/Culture Commons. He is the author of two books, Guide to Open Content Licenses and the Public is Watching: Sex, Laws and Videotapes, and numerous articles on copyright, informal information economies and the commons. He is also pursuing a Ph.D. on Law and Justice in popular Hindi cinema. The Alternative Law Forum is a collective that works on issues of law, legality and power. It comprises a motley crew of lawyers, activists, researchers and media practitioners. The program for the lecture will be as follows:- Date:- 27th March 2008, Thursday Title of the lecture:- "Archive fever and Copyright Deliriums" Venue :- 2nd floor, Ramalingaswami Conference Hall, IDRC SARO, 208, Jorbagh, New Delhi 110 003 1100-1105 hrs. Introduction and welcome by Dr. Stephen J McGurk, Regional Director, Regional Office for South Asia and China 1105-1150 hrs. Presentation by Mr. Lawrence Liang, Founder, Alternative Law Forum, Bangalore, India. 1150-1230 hrs. Questions and Discussions 1230-1330 hrs. Lunch We would like to invite you to the lecture and lunch. The conference room will be booked for the lecture on 27th March 2008 from 10 am to 2 pm. Sincerely, Phet / Reena From nikita.sud at qeh.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 17 14:31:11 2008 From: nikita.sud at qeh.ox.ac.uk (Nikita Sud) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:01:11 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] collaborative research on land and land liberalisation in India Message-ID: <20080317090111.44E329E047@webmail222.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080317/975d3602/attachment.pl From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 17:31:51 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:31:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: S. Jabbar Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition To: sheba Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram ----- JKLF presents: Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir Date: March 19,2008. Time: 11 am Venue: Indian Social Institute, 10 Institutional Area Lodi Road New Delhi Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, Contact:2474882-2481844, http://www.jklfkashmir.org http://www.jklf.org.uk ------ End of Forwarded Message - -- From ravikant at sarai.net Mon Mar 17 17:53:36 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:53:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Wikimania 2008: Call for Participation Message-ID: <200803171753.36629.ravikant@sarai.net> Please circulate this call among Wikimedia communities, researchers and other people that may be interested! This call is also online at http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_Participation ============ Wikimania 2008: Call for Participation ============= Wikimania is an annual global event devoted to Wikimedia projects around the globe (including Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikisource, Wikinews, Wiktionary, Wikiversity, Wikiquote, Wikispecies, and Wikimedia Commons) and for its editors and users to gather, meet each other, exchange ideas, and report on research and projects. It is a community event, which is also open to the public and to researchers. This year's conference will be held from July 17-19, 2008 in Alexandria, Egypt at the new Library of Alexandria (Bibliotheca Alexandrina). For more information, please visit the Wikimania 2008 Home page at http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org We are accepting submissions for presentations, workshops, panels, posters, open spaces, and artistic artifacts. Please carefully follow the submission guidelines below. Submissions can be sent via the following link: https://wikimedia.pentabarf.org/submission/wikimania2008 ================== Important dates ====================== * 1 February – 16 March : Submission * 17 March – 30 April : Review, feedback and notification of acceptance * 17 – 19 July 2007 : Wikimania ================== Conference Tracks =================== Submissions should address one or more of the following themes: Wikimedia Communities : Interesting projects and particularities within the communities; policy creation within individual projects; conflict resolution and community dynamics; reputation and identity; multi-lingualism, languages and cultures; social studies. We explicitly invite you to discuss your local Wikimedia project's community. Free Knowledge : Open access to information; ways to gather and distribute free knowledge, usage of the Wikimedia projects in education, journalism, research; ways to improve content quality and usability; copyright laws and other legal areas that interfere with Wikimedia projects. Free Content in the Middle-East/Africa. Technical infrastructure : Issues related to MediaWiki development and extensions; Wikimedia's technical infrastructure; new ideas for development (including case studies from other wikis or similar projects). Scientific track : Papers about massively collaborative work, open and free content creation, community dynamics, the social or economic aspects of the Wikimedia projects, and other topics related to Wikimedia projects. Papers submitted to the scientific track will be peer reviewed by a reviewing committee regarding their novelty, rigour, and estimated impact, and accepted or rejected based on these reviews. The papers will be published in proceedings afterwards, and depending on the number and the quality of the submissions, a journal special issue may be pursued. Scientific track papers must be in English, and must not exceed 7,500 words (or 15 pages LNCS). Your topic must be related either to the Wikimedia projects and their communities, or to the creation of free content in general. =================== Types of Submissions ================== We are seeking submissions for * presentations (10–30 minute talks with discussion afterwards) * workshops (60–120 minute session with more involvement of the audience) * panels (group of 2-5 speakers to discuss on a specific subject) * posters (printed presentations or visual displays that can stand on their own) * artistic artifacts (plays, competitions, comedy, visualizations, or other representations of some aspect of the projects) In addition there will the possibility to give lightning talks (5 minute short presentations). These will be organized on the Wikimania 2008 wiki without need to submit via the submission system. For more information about Submission Guidelines, please see: http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submission ======================= Submissions ======================== Once you are sure you have included all of the required information, please send your submission before the respective deadline through our submission system at https://wikimedia.pentabarf.org/submission == See also == * About the venue: http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Venue * Brainstorming page for program ideas: http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Program_ideas * Editable list of attendees: http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Attendees -- Tzu-Chiang Liou LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tcliou FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=543610417 Email: tcliou@ {gmail.com|iis.sinica.edu.tw} || MSN: tcliou at msn.com || Skype: tcliou ------------------------------------------------------- From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 08:39:21 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:39:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kerala - Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala Message-ID: <47DF3261.3050201@gmail.com> *Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala* ============================================== *Date: 22nd March 2008, 9.30 am* */Venue:/** Achuthamenon Hall, Near Public Library, Near Shenoy's Theatre* *Eranakulam.* ----------------------------------------------- Dear Friends, For the past two decades, Department of Tourism and tourism industry in Kerala have been promoting Kerala tourism with various jargons such as "Eco-Tourism", "Sustainable Tourism", etc. There is no exception for "Responsible Tourism". The present 'mantra' of Kerala Tourism is being introduced in the state as a solution for 'everything'. But a closer look at the recent developments will give an insight into the present realities of Kerala Tourism. The "Responsible Tourism" initiative of Kerala Tourism is not participatory as they claim and keeping away local communities from the discussion. The current discussions are not addressing the concerns of affected population which needs urgent and immediate actions to stop the damages of tourism. At the same time, the present discussions initiated by Kerala Tourism are misleading the discussions and debates. They are aimed at marketing Kerala Tourism abroad without changing or addressing the fundamental issues here. Kerala Tourism and International Centre for Responsible Tourism – India (ICRT) in cooperation with 'Incredible India' are organizing "Incredible India Second International Conference on Responsible Tourism in Destinations". It is* *to be held from 21st – 24th* *March 2007 in Kochi, Kerala. This conference is advertised and propagated in a big manner both nationally and internationally.* * According to the organizers, the Conference will be a key global initiative to help the tourism industry and all its stakeholders to discuss and debate important developments in the field. The "efforts" of Kerala Tourism in this direction will also be explored at the conference. The conference will also "reflect on Kerala's experience of working towards being a Responsible Tourism destination and to share it internationally". But there is a very evident contradiction in the way they are organizing the conference and its promises. The conference excludes very important stakeholders from the discussions. It is an event for elites held at a luxury hotel. The registration fee for the conference is a testimony for this. Even the reduced fee is equivalent to Indian Rupees 5,000, which is still beyond the reach of majority of local 'stakeholders'. The programme schedule of the conference advertised "Mararikulam as an emerging beach destination". But the present reality in this area shows that the conference organizers underestimate the socio-cultural and economic impact of tourism on local communities. While they say "Mararikulam is about one local entrepreneur kick starting a destination. It is also about the emerging opportunities for the local community", the experience of the local community is quite different. Tourism in this area has caused a real estate boom and the local entrepreneur mentioned has set a trend which resulted in market induced displacement of fisher folk from the area. There is no paradigm shift in the way Kerala is developing its tourism sector. The current discussions are just a hype to change the fading images of Kerala tourism and portray it as a responsible destination in the international market. Neither the conference nor the "Responsible Tourism" initiative in the state addresses any of the serious problems of the so called "Kerala Model Tourism Development" in its agenda. At the same time, this ill affected model demonstrates how unregulated and weak policies have facilitated unsustainable tourism development in the state which alienated the local population especially the marginalized from their peaceful life and livelihood. Kerala Tourism is pretending that the initiative is partipatory but at the same time they are strategically excluding local communities from the conference and discussions to hide the fundamental issues raised by them from the international community. This state of affairs convinced *Kerala Tourism Watch *to facilitate a convention against the malpractices of Kerala tourism and against proclaiming it as "Responsible Tourism. The Convention will take place on 22^nd March 2008 at Achuthamenon Hall (Near Public Library), Eranakulam where we will get to raise our voice and bring more attention to the issues raised by the civil society of Kerala. The convention will be a broad platform of civil society organizations and people's movements to discuss and critically analyze the present tourism trends, tourism practices in the state. Participation is free, of course. No participation fee! We request you to be part of the convention and our efforts to unveil Kerala tourism's ill affected tourism practices and hidden agendas. Please send your suggestions, comments and feed back to: tourismwatch.kerala at gmail.com In Solidarity Kerala Tourism Watch Robin, Keralaeeyam, Thrissur - Ph: + 91 9446576943 Geo Jose, Ph: + 91 9446000701 * *About Kerala Tourism Watch** Kerala Tourism Watch is an informal coalition of civil society activists and local communities to respond to the threats and challenges posed by exploitative and undemocratic tourism practices in Kerala that upset people's livelihood and cause cultural, environmental, economic and social maladies that the Government is unable to control. Kerala is a state in Indian Union known for its remarkable achievements in social sectors such as health and education based on decades of social mobilization and political articulation of oppressed castes and communities in the 19th and 20th centuries. A vibrant and vigilant civil society has been the hall mark of the state which has forced successive governments belonging to the centrist and left persuasions to make progressive legislations, implement social security programmes and democratize institutional structures and procedures within the confines of the dependency relations of the productive sectors to national and international labour and commodities markets. Right from the 1980s when Hotel Industry in the state, supported by the government policies and bureaucratic intermediation, began an aggressive campaign to market Kerala as a tourism destination, civil society groups and social movements have raised concerns about its harmful impacts on the social, economic, cultural and environmental fronts. The history of civil society activism in Kerala in the last few decades is marked also by the strong presence of oppositional voices against the unjust and undemocratic nature of tourism practices in the state. Local communities in Kerala who are seriously affected by the exploitative tourism development in the state are now on the brink of a social, environmental and cultural breakdown as their rights to livelihood is threatened in an unprecedented manner by state policies mandating reactionary legislations, forced and market mediated evictions and increasing economic and cultural marginalization. Local communities are loosing their land, jobs and indigenous cultures as a result of the assaults of commercial tourism. As a collective, Kerala Tourism Watch believes that Kerala Government's Tourism Department has been long ignoring the demands raised by local communities and civil society organizations for a democratized and equitable tourism development in the state. The Department has been ridiculously vocal in its rhetorical assertions about practicing ecotourism, responsible tourism, participatory tourism etc., -the buzzwords of the day. The reality is however, is that the fundamental practices of mass commercial tourism remains the same irrespective of the catchy names appropriated by the department for marketing Kerala as a global destination. Even the pathetic pastiche 'God's Own Country' is nothing more than a public relations stunt. Kerala tourism, obviously, has a long way to go in achieving basic goals of transparency, accountability and responsiveness. At a time when Indigenous people, fishing communities, local populations and civil society groups are engaged in relentless struggles against irresponsible tourism development and policies of the Governments and the tourism Department in the state, we understand that documentation and campaign support are crucially important for the success of the movements. Kerala Tourism Watch will hence, attempt to update information on the campaigns, movements, policies, networks and every possible aspect of societal impacts of tourism in the state. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 08:45:31 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:45:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this session of brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in Delhi. For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind inside and outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was a guest speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: S. Jabbar > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > To: sheba > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > ----- > JKLF presents: > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > Date: March 19,2008. > Time: 11 am > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > 10 Institutional Area > Lodi Road > New Delhi > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > Contact:2474882-2481844, > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > - -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 14:00:59 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:00:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it unhygienic), however, I do like the idea of peace. I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all public figures have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it makes you happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would certainly disagree in the manner of protest. Rgds, Partha ...................................... On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this session of > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in Delhi. > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind inside and > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was a guest > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: S. Jabbar > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > To: sheba > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > ----- > > JKLF presents: > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > Time: 11 am > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > 10 Institutional Area > > Lodi Road > > New Delhi > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 15:09:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:09:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? Just Curious ...... On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > unhygienic), > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all public figures > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it makes you > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would certainly > disagree > in the manner of protest. > > Rgds, Partha > ...................................... > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this session > of > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in Delhi. > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind inside and > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was a guest > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > To: sheba > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > Lodi Road > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919... > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 15:19:04 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:19:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits launch signature campaign against Yasin Malik Message-ID: <6353c690803180249t64de768ctb1b24e302e7ca907@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiri Pandits launch signature campaign against Yasin Malik By Sarwar Kashani New Delhi, March 17 (IANS) An online signature campaign by exiled Kashmiri Hindus against militant-turned-politician Yasin Malik is receiving an overwhelming response from the community the world over. Close to 550 signatures from Kashmiri Pandits have been registered at http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ymalik8 seeking "just trial" of the cases pending against Malik, chairman of the pro-independent Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF). A US-based Kashmiri Pandit is behind the campaign that was launched Saturday when Malik was in Delhi to address the "Youth Forum - If I Could Change The World", organised by the India Today media group. Inviting Malik to address youth had apparently angered the Kashmiri Pandit activists, prompting them to also hold protests, besides the online campaign. read more on - http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From rana at ranadasgupta.com Tue Mar 18 16:54:34 2008 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:54:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CFP: Sacred and Secular conference, Southampton University Message-ID: <47DFA672.1090509@ranadasgupta.com> Conference on “The Sacred and the Secular” Sept 19-21, 2008 hosted by the School of Humanities (English), University of Southampton, UK At a time when the prevalent rhetoric pitches the relationship between the sacred and the secular as one of conflict, this conference will focus on a more productive and dialogic exchange between the two concepts. The associations of the “secular” with enlightenment and progress and the “sacred” with religious institutionalisation and primitivism are not only inadequate but also inaccurate. The secular and the sacred are constituted by the intersecting discourses of the social, political, cultural, legal and the economic. This postcolonial conference will address how these intersections are manifested through lived, local practices; syncretic music and art forms; eclectic religious practices; everyday codes of living and resistant activist movements. The conference will provide a forum for discussion between academics, artists, activists, film-makers and arts practitioners. We invite papers which address the relationship between the sacred and the secular in some of the following ways: - How are the sacred and/or the secular performed? Papers might address dance, music, drama, political speech, and how these modes of performance function in various sites, such as media, parliament, the street, religious buildings. - How are the sacred and/or the secular represented in literature, film and/or art? What is the relationship between the sacred and/or the secular and textual or cultural authority? - What is the relationship between governance and the sacred? And in what ways must secular states accommodate the sacred in order to sustain a functioning civil society? - What is the relationship between the sacred and the profane? - Why is conflict so often articulated in terms of oppositions between the sacred and the secular? - How are the sacred and/or the secular fetishized in media and other discourses? What are the justifications and dangers of declared secular states fetishizing state power? - How do sacred and/or secular discourses approach gender, sexuality and/or the erotic? - What are the intersections between the sacred and/or the secular and the regulatory discourses of science, medicine, business, economics, and the law? For further details, contact: Dr. Sujala Singh English, School of Humanities University of Southampton Southampton SO17 1BJ Phone: +44 (2380) 593413 S.Singh at soton.ac.uk From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Tue Mar 18 19:53:49 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:23:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Zardari's real strength In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <690188.51197.qm@web8401.mail.in.yahoo.com> While Asif Ali Zardari may be on his way to become the next PM of Pakistan, it maybe good to have a look at the properties owned by him. Is there anyone in the world who has benefited more from Benazir's death than Mr. Zardari? ASIF ZARDARI SAYS HE SHOULD BE THE PRIME MINISTER BECAUSE HE IS A WELL KNOWN MAN. HE CERTAINLY IS VERY WELL KNOWN IN THE FOLLOWING PLACES: PROPERTIES OF ASIF ALI ZARDARI (as published in the Nation of April 01, 2002) THE LOCAL ASSETS ARE: Plot no. 121, Phase VIII, DHA Karachi. Agricultural land situated in Deh Dali Wadi, Taluka, Tando Allah Yar. Agricultural property located in Deh Tahooki Taluka, District Hyderabad measuring 65.15 acres. Agricultural land falling in Deh 76-Nusrat, Taluka, District Nawabshah measuring 827.14 acres Agricultural land situated in Deh 76-Nusrat, Taluka, District Nawabshah measuring 293.18 acres Residential plot No 3 (Now House) Block No B-I, City Survey No 2268 Ward-A Nawabshah Huma Heights (Asif Apartments) 133, Depot Lines, Commissariat Road, Karachi Trade Tower Building 3/CL/V Abdullah Haroon Road, Karachi House No 8, St 19, F-8/2, Islamabad. Agricultural land in Deh 42 Dad Taluka/ District Nawabshah Agricultural land in Deh 51 Dad Taluka Distt Nawabshah Plot No 3 & 4 Sikni (residential) Near Housing Society Ltd. Nawabshah CafT Sheraz (C.S No. 2231/2 & 2231/3) Nawabshah Agricultural land in Deh 23-Deh Taluka & District Nawabshah Agricultural property in Deh 72-A, Nusrat Taluka, Nawabshah Agricultural land in Deh 76-Nusrat Taluka, Nawabshah Plot No. A/136 Survey No 2346 Ward A Government Employee's Cooperative Housing Society Ltd, Nawabshah Agricultural land in Deh Jaryoon Taluka Tando Allah Yar, Distt. Hyderabad Agricultural land in Deh Aroro Taluka Tando Allah Yar " " Agricultural land in Deh Nondani Taluka Tando Allah Yar " " Agricultural land in Deh Lotko Taluka Tando Allah Yar " " Agricultural land in Deh Jhol Taluka Tando Allah Yar " " Agricultural land in Deh Kandari Taluka Tando Allah Yar " " Agricultural land in Deh Deghi Taluka Tando Mohammad Khan Agricultural land in Deh Rahooki Taluka, Hyderabad Property in Deh Charo Taluka, Badin Agricultural property in Deh Dali Wadi Taluka, Hyderabad Five acres prime land allotted by DG KDA in 1995/96 4,000 kanals on Simli Dam 80 acres of land at Hawkes Bay 13 acres of land at Maj Gulradi (KPT Land) One acre plot, GCI, Clifton One acre of land, State Life (International Center, Sadar) FEBCs worth Rs. 4 million SHARES IN SUGAR MILLS INCLUDE: Sakrand Sugar Mills Nawabshah Ansari Sugar Mills Hyderabad Mirza Sugar Mills Badin Pangrio Sugar Mills Thatta Bachani Sugar Mills Sanghar FRONT COMPANIES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES: Bomer Fiannce Inc, British Virgin Islands Mariston Securities Inc, " " " Marleton Business S A, " " " Capricorn Trading S A, " " " Fagarita Consulting INc, " " " Marvil Associated Inc, , " " " Pawnbury Finance Ltd, " " " Oxton Trading Limited, " " " Brinslen Invest S A, " " " Chimitex Holding S A, " " " Elkins Holding S A, " " " Minister Invest Ltd, " " " Silvernut Investment Inc, " " " Tacolen Investment Ltd, " " " Marlcrdon Invest S A, " " " Dustan Trading Inc, " " " Reconstruction and Development Finance Inc, " " " Nassam Alexander Inc. Westminster Securities Inc. Laptworth Investment Inc 202, Saint Martin Drive, West Jacksonville Intra Foods Inc. 3376, Lomrel Grove, Jacksonville, Florida Dynatel Trading Co, Florida A.S Realty Inc. Palm Beach Gardens Florida Bon Voyage Travel Consultancy Inc, Florida PROPERTIES IN UK ARE: 355 acre Rockwood Estate, Surrey (Now stands admitted) Flat 6, 11 Queensgate Terrace, London SW7 26 Palace Mansions, Hammersmith Road, London W14 27 Pont Street, London, SW1 20 Wilton Crescent, London SW1 23 Lord Chancellor Walk, Coombe Hill, Kingston, Surrey The Mansion, Warren Lane, West Hampstead, London A flat at Queensgate Terrace, London Houses at Hammersmith Road, Wilton Crescent, Kingston and in Hampstead. PROPERTIES IN BELGIUM ARE: 12-3 Boulevard De-Nieuport, 1000, Brussels, (Building containing 4 shops and 2 large apartments) Chausee De-Mons, 1670, Brussels PROPERTIES IN FRANCE ARE: La Manoir De La Reine Blanche and property in Cannes PROPERTIES IN USA -- in the name of Asif Zardari and managed by Shimmy Qureshi are: Stud farm in Texas Wellington Club East, West Palm Beach 12165 West Forest Hills, Florida Escue Farm 13,524 India Mound, West Palm Beach 3,220 Santa Barbara Drive, Wellington Florida 13,254 Polo Club Road, West Palm Beach Florida 3,000 North Ocean Drive, Singer Islands, Florida 525 South Flager Driver, West Palm Beach, Florida Holiday Inn Houston Owned by Asif Ali Zardari, Iqbal Memon and Sadar-ud-Din Hashwani BANK ACCOUNTS IN FOREGN COMPANIES ARE: Union Bank of Switzerland (Account No. 552.343, 257.556.60Q, 433.142.60V, 216.393.60T) Citibank Private Limited (SWZ) (Account No. 342034) Citibank N A Dubai (Account No. 818097) Barclays Bank (Suisse) (Account No. 62290209) Barclays Bank (Suisse) (Account No. 62274400) Banque Centrade Ormard Burrus S A Banque Pache S A Banque Pictet & Cie Banque La Henin, Paris (Account No. 00101953552) Bank Natinede Paris in Geneva (Account NO. 563.726.9) Swiss Bank Corporation Chase Manhattan Bank Switzerland American Express Bank Switzerland Societe De Banque Swissee Barclays Bank (Knightsbridge Branch) (Account No. 90991473) Barclays Bank, Kingston and Chelsea Branch, (Sort Code 20-47-34135) National Westminster Bank, Alwych Branch (Account No. 9683230) Habib Bank (Pall Mall Branch). National Westminster Bank, Barking Branch, (Account No. 28558999). Habib Bank AG, Moorgate, London EC2 National Westminster Bank, Edgware Road, London Banque Financiei E Dela Citee, Credit Suisse Habib Bank AG Zurich, Switzerland Pictet Et Cie, Geneva Credit Agricole, Paris Credit Agridolf, Branch 11, Place Brevier, 76440, Forges Les Faux Credit Agricole, Branch Haute – Normandie, 76230, Boise Chillaume Zardari has gained sole control of Benazir's assets and property; by becoming the PPP's co-chairperson he has taken over the reins of her party; by changing his name to Asif Bhutto Zardari he has hijacked Bhutto's political legacy and by becoming the leader of the largest party of Pakistan he is dreaming of occupying the Prime Minister and President houses in Islamabad. Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 18 23:19:21 2008 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:49:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:"Taslima Nasreen: I have to escape from the death chamber" Message-ID: <867533.54740.qm@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Taslima Nasreen is leaving India to rescue her life. She does not flee from the threat of the fundamentalists, but from the unbearable conditions in which she is held. For four months now, the Indian Government is keeping her in solitary confinement at an undisclosed location. She is not allowed to meet anybody including closest friends. And worse: she has been denied urgently needed medical treatment. As a result, her health is in alarming condition. I have been in constant phone contact with Taslima Nasreen in her secret prison. The following shocking document, written by her some days ago and sent to me, has been kept under wraps according to her wishes till the eve of her departure. This morning she told me that I can release it.   Sanal Edamaruku (Rationalist International)     I HAVE TO ESCAPE FROM THE DEATH CHAMBER I used to call this the torture chamber.  I gradually came to realize that it was the chamber of death instead.  I was not even allowed to stay in hospital for long though the doctors felt it was necessary in order to stabilize my blood pressure.  But then, orders are orders and the government did not want to be inconvenienced by me in any way whatsoever.  The government did not want the media to know I had been hospitalized.  I did not have my mobile phone with me and the doctors at the government's hospital –AIIMS – were instructed to discharge me after a certain period of time.  Curiously though, the decision was not left to the doctors as to what this certain period of time was to be.   The last time I was admitted to this hospital a few weeks ago I was suddenly discharged as a result of governmental pressure.  I am sure this was linked to a report in the Times of India which stated I had been hospitalized.  At this undisclosed location I am neither allowed to go to a doctor for consultation nor is one allowed to come to me.  I suffer from severely fluctuating blood pressure and the strange thing is that I was not even allowed to speak to any of the doctors at the hospital over the telephone.   Even after repeated requests I was not given a single phone number.   When I was in hospital, I asked the doctors if I could call them if necessary but they said that they were not allowed to hand out their numbers.  I had to make inquiries through officials to get even the simplest of answers from these doctors.  I have suffered tremendously both physically and mentally.  My blood pressure is now impossible to control.  The  doctors say it is due to stress which I must avoid at all costs.  How can I not be stressed when everything is continuously stressing me out?  I am brought to this place and incarcerated like some animal; my human rights constantly and continually violated.  I am not allowed to step out or meet anyone.  How can I not be stressed?  I received the extension of  my resident's permit, but the status quo continued.    And because of the high blood pressure caused by stress, I developed heart disease (hypertrophy) and hypertensive retinopathy, both of which were diagnosed at the hospital.  The hypertensive retinopathy will eventually cause me to go blind.   The blood pressure if uncontrolled  destroy the heart, kidneys and eyes. Prior to my confinement, my blood pressure had been under control and all my organs were in perfect condition.   After returning from hospital, I wanted to leave this country at the earliest as I knew I would never be free from stress here.  I said I needed to go to Kolkata urgently to collect a few important documents and other assorted things including bank cards and to sign my tax papers.  That too, just the basic permission to visit my Kolkata flat to wrap up my life there, was denied for security reasons.  THEY FINALLY   DID IT Even though they constantly pressured me mentally to leave the country, I refused to budge.  I was determined I would not leave this country.  When they saw it was pointless trying to destroy my mind, they attempted to destroy my body.  In this they succeeded by ruining my health which leaves me with no other alternative but to leave this country.  I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SEE ANY DOCTOR   FOR  'SECURITY REASONS'   It is important that all this be known.   I made repeated requests to be allowed to consult a medical specialist as my condition was growing worse with the ever increasing stress I had to face in this not-so-gilded cage.   I was not allowed to see a doctor for more than two months.  The decision makers asked the officials not to attend to me especially when I desperately needed a doctor.  Two months after my initial request, I was eventually taken to a quack to an undisclosed third location who could, unsurprisingly, do nothing at all.  I insisted that I had to see a cardiologist or at least a specialist.  I was then told that this would entail a visit to the doctor's chamber.  I agreed to go but was told that I would not be allowed to go to a doctor's chamber because of the 'security risks' involved.  I fell very ill and told the officials I was likely to have a heart attack.  After a few  days,  at the same undisclosed location, I was allowed to see a doctor from the AIIMS who prescribed some medicines after taking which I fainted.  The same night I was admitted to hospital where my blood pressure fell alarmingly and had to be given life-saving-drugs   to survive.  The doctors told me that I needed to spend two or three weeks in hospital but the officials whisked me away from the critical care unit after just three days and took me directly to meet the Minister for External Affairs.   The Minister asked me to leave the country the shock of which made my blood pressure shoot up to 220/120.   I was rushed to the hospital but the doctors were instructed by the officials not toadmit me for 'security reasons'.    In my not-so-gilded cage, I had no help at all. FACTS It has been nearly eight months that I have been living under virtual house arrest, in a prison without any facilities.  I have been asked continuously by the government to leave this country.  Naturally, this has upset me a great deal as I left Europe to relocate to India; to make India my permanent home.  I settled in Kolkata where I was living peacefully in a Bengali milieu.  I was very active helping oppressed women and writing feminist and humanist literature.  Just because a few Muslim fundamentalists objected to my being in this country, I was first imprisoned in Kolkata and then moved to Delhi.  In order for the politicians to secure their Muslim vote bank, I had to be locked up and, as a consequence, my health was irreparably destroyed. IMPORTANT I was not allowed to see a doctor even when my blood pressure was fluctuating uncontrollably because of the stress put on me by the GoI. I was not allowed to see a specialist for 'security reasons'. I was finally seen by a doctor chosen by the GOI, just after having his prescribed medicine, drug  poisoning started, I fainted and  I was admitted to a government's  hospital. Life-saving-drugs saved my life. I was not allowed to stay in hospital for 'security reasons'. When it was made clear that I must avoid stress and stressful situations, I was taken from the CCU( cardiac care unit) to meet the Minister for External Affairs who put great mental pressure on me to leave the country. When my blood pressure reached 220/120 after talking with the Minister, I begged to get admission in the hospital, but I was not allowed. I am not being allowed to go to Kolkata before I leave the country to pack some important things and secure my house. I was not allowed to step out for eight months ( 4 months in Kolkata, 3 and 1/2 months in Delhi) I was not allowed visiting hours at my place of confinement I was not allowed to meet my friends and acquaintances   Taslima Nasreen (See also the article “Can anybody live like this?” and other reports about Taslima’s situation in our Website: www.rationalistinternational .net)   Recipients of Rationalist International Bulletins are permitted to reproduce, publish, post or forward articles and reports from the Bulletin. Please acknowledge Rationalist International Bulletin # 172. Rationalist International Bulletin is available in English, French, Spanish, German, Finnish and Portuguese.   HOW TO GET YOUR FREE COPY OF RATIONALIST INTERNATIONAL BULLETIN REGULARLY? Please send a blank mail to the following address. Don't forget to re-confirm when asked. English: Rationalist-subscribe at yahoogrou ps.com Spanish (Español) : Racionalista-subscribe at yahoogro ups.com French (Français) : Rationaliste-subscribe at yahoogro ups.com German (Deutsch) : Rationalist_Deutsch-subscribe @yahoogroups.com Finnish (Suomi) : Rationalisti-subscribe at yahoogro ups.com Portuguese (Português) :  Portuguese_Racionalist-subscrib e at yahoogroups.com RATIONALIST INTERNATIONAL  President:  Sanal Edamaruku Honorary Associates Dr. Pieter Admiraal (The Netherlands) , Prof. Mike Archer (Australia),   Katsuaki Asai (Japan), Jocelyn Bézecourt (France),  Prof. Colin Blakemore (UK),   Dr. Bill Cooke (New Zealand), Dr. Helena Cronin (UK),  Prof. Richard Dawkins (UK), Jan Loeb Eisler (USA),Pekka Elo (Finland), Prof. Antony Flew (UK),  Tom Flynn (USA), Jim Herrick (UK), Christopher Hitchens (USA),  Ellen Johnson (USA),  Prof. Paul Kurtz (USA), Lavanam (India),  Dr. Richard Leakey  (Kenya),   Iain Middleton (New Zealand),  Dr. Henry Morgentaler (Canada),  Maryam Namazie (Iran), Dr. Taslima Nasreen (Bangladesh) , Steinar Nilsen (Norway),  Prof. Jean-Claude Pecker (France), James Randi (USA),   Prof. Ajoy Roy (Bangladesh) , Dr. Younus Shaikh (Pakistan), Barbara Smoker (UK),  Richard Stallman (USA),  Prof. Rob Tielman (The Netherlands) , David Tribe (Australia),  K Veeramani (India), Bary Williams (Australia), Prof. Richard Wiseman (UK) and Prof. Lewis Wolpert (UK).   Deceased:  Sir Hermann Bondi (UK), Prof. Vern Bullough (USA), Joseph Edamaruku (India),  Dr. G N Jyoti Shankar (USA) http://www.rationalistinternational.net 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 10:57:12 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:57:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803182227u70cf4cffu47fbd0a1a2a7a0c3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, I do hope you are not saying that because you consider Yasin Malik a "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will understand is your shooting / killing him in the same manner. Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's freedom through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with violence. One of the reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... Rgds, Partha ...................................... On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? > > Just Curious ...... > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > > unhygienic), > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all public > > figures > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it makes you > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would certainly > > disagree > > in the manner of protest. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ...................................... > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this > > session of > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in Delhi. > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind inside and > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was a > > guest > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > To: sheba > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > Lodi Road > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919... > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 19 11:15:43 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arthur C Clarke dies Message-ID: <100663.12896.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Science fiction writer Arthur Clarke dies in Sri Lanka 19 Mar 2008, 0439 hrs IST, AP COLOMBO (SRI LANKA): Arthur C Clarke, a visionary science fiction writer who won worldwide acclaim with more than 100 books on space, science and the future, died on Wednesday in his adopted home of Sri Lanka, an aide said. He was 90. Clarke, who had battled debilitating post-polio syndrome since the 1960s and sometimes used a wheelchair, died at 1:30 a.m. after suffering breathing problems, aide Rohan De Silva said. Co-author with Stanley Kubrick of Kubrick's film 2001: A Space Odyssey, Clarke was also regarded as far more than a science fiction writer. He was credited with the concept of communications satellites in 1945, decades before they became a reality. Geosynchronous orbits, which keep satellites in a fixed position relative to the ground, are called Clarke orbits. He joined American broadcaster Walter Cronkite as commentator on the U.S. Apollo moonshots in the late 1960s. Clarke's non-fiction volumes on space travel and his explorations of the Great Barrier Reef and Indian Ocean earned him respect in the world of science, and in 1976 he became an honorary fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics. But it was his writing that shot him to his greatest fame and that gave him the greatest fulfillment. "Sometimes I am asked how I would like to be remembered," Clarke said recently. "I have had a diverse career as a writer, underwater explorer and space promoter. Of all these I would like to be remembered as a writer." >From 1950, he began a prolific output of both fiction and non-fiction, sometimes publishing three books in a year. He published his best-selling 3001: The Final Odyssey when he was 79. Some of his best-known books are Childhood's End , 1953; The City and The Stars , 1956, The Nine Billion Names of God , 1967; Rendezvous with Rama , 1973; Imperial Earth , 1975; and The Songs of Distant Earth , 1986. When Clarke and Kubrick got together to develop a movie about space, they used as basic ideas several of Clarke's shorter pieces, including The Sentinel , written in 1948, and Encounter in the Dawn . As work progressed on the screenplay, Clarke also wrote a novel of the story. He followed it up with 2010 , 2061 , and 3001: The Final Odyssey . In 1989, two decades after the Apollo 11 moon landings, Clarke wrote: " 2001 was written in an age which now lies beyond one of the great divides in human history; we are sundered from it forever by the moment when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out on to the Sea of Tranquility. Now history and fiction have become inexorably intertwined." Clarke won the Nebula Award of the Science Fiction Writers of America in 1972, 1974 and 1979; the Hugo Award of the World Science Fiction Convention in 1974 and 1980, and in 1986 became Grand Master of the Science Fiction Writers of America. He was awarded the CBE in 1989. Born in Minehead, western England, on Dec. 16, 1917, the son of a farmer, Arthur Charles Clark became addicted to science-fiction after buying his first copies of the pulp magazine Amazing Stories at Woolworth's. He devoured writing by English authors H G Wells and Olaf Stapledon and began writing for his school magazine in his teens. Clarke went to work as a clerk in Her Majesty's Exchequer and Audit Department in London, where he joined the British Interplanetary Society and wrote his first short stories and scientific articles on space travel. It was not until after the World War II that Clarke received a bachelor of science degree in physics and mathematics from King's College in London. In the wartime Royal Air Force, he was put in charge of a new radar blind-landing system. But it was an RAF memo he wrote in 1945 about the future of communications that led him to fame. It was about the possibility of using satellites to revolutionize communications, an idea whose time had decidedly not come. Clarke later sent it to a publication called Wireless World , which almost rejected it as too far-fetched. Clarke married in 1953, and was divorced in 1964. He had no children. Disabled by post-polio syndrome, the lingering effects of a disease that had paralyzed him for two months in 1959, Clarke rarely left his home in the Indian Ocean island of Sri Lanka. He moved there in 1956, lured by his interest in marine diving which, he said, was as close as he could get to the weightless feeling of space. "I'm perfectly operational underwater," he once said. Clarke was linked by his computer with friends and fans around the world, spending each morning answering e-mails and browsing the Internet. In an interview, Clarke said he did not regret having never followed his novels into space, adding that he had arranged to have DNA from strands of his hair sent into orbit. "One day, some super civilization may encounter this relic from the vanished species and I may exist in another time," he said. "Move over, Stephen King." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 12:09:43 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:09:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <32144e990803182227u70cf4cffu47fbd0a1a2a7a0c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803182227u70cf4cffu47fbd0a1a2a7a0c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803182339n4c5a2548x531363b0e69944eb@mail.gmail.com> And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence ......But again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like Yasine On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider Yasin Malik a > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will understand is your > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's freedom through > Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with violence. One of the reasons he's > considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > Rgds, Partha > ...................................... > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > > > unhygienic), > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all public > > > figures > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it makes you > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would certainly > > > disagree > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ...................................... > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this > > > session of > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in > > > Delhi. > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind inside > > > and > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was a > > > guest > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > +919... > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919... From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 13:21:03 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:21:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803182339n4c5a2548x531363b0e69944eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803182227u70cf4cffu47fbd0a1a2a7a0c3@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803182339n4c5a2548x531363b0e69944eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803190051sd5bc3c5u5391c7456bea492f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only response to violence should be violence? Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - just more death and hate. Rgds, Partha ................... On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence ......But again > we have no love for a Psycopath killer like Yasine > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider Yasin Malik a > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will understand is your > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's freedom > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with violence. One of the > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ...................................... > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > > > > unhygienic), > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all public > > > > figures > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it makes > > > > you > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would certainly > > > > disagree > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this > > > > session of > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in > > > > Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind inside > > > > and > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was a > > > > guest > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919... > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 15:44:17 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:44:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <32144e990803190051sd5bc3c5u5391c7456bea492f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803182227u70cf4cffu47fbd0a1a2a7a0c3@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803182339n4c5a2548x531363b0e69944eb@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803190051sd5bc3c5u5391c7456bea492f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803190314i3220488fwc646d87f7b09bb1b@mail.gmail.com> Partha , Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust you to some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in the bunch, maintain double standards. You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the start up line of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. Disappointed ! Pawan On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > response to violence should be violence? > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - just more > death and hate. > > Rgds, Partha > ................... > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence ......But > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like Yasine > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider Yasin Malik a > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will understand is your > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's freedom > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with violence. One of the > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ...................................... > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > wrote: > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all public > > > > > figures > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it makes > > > > > you > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of this > > > > > session of > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet in > > > > > Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind > > > > > inside and > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he was > > > > > a guest > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919... From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 17:37:33 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:37:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803190314i3220488fwc646d87f7b09bb1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080317075355.16247.qmail@f4mail-235-134.rediffmail.com> <47e122a70803170501lc3c71d2i6ca412a65275cec3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690803172015pd4881f5v59d1352022bd6822@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803180130s38a3ec01u17f00df66d30beda@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803180239u5a8fa738m99852c5fa14b675f@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803182227u70cf4cffu47fbd0a1a2a7a0c3@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803182339n4c5a2548x531363b0e69944eb@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990803190051sd5bc3c5u5391c7456bea492f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70803190314i3220488fwc646d87f7b09bb1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803190507h7b9f8da8ve9dc1a257067e2eb@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just follow what I believe is right. b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed hate and more violence and can not be a solution. c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume that is 'AsitRed'). However, must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block without punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or profess to here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my cousin who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging in a debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - are you proposing that the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more violence - because that is what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot point of the debate. Rgds, Partha .................... On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust you to > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in the bunch, > maintain double standards. > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the start up line > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > Disappointed ! > > Pawan > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - just more > > death and hate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................... > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence ......But > > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like Yasine > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider Yasin Malik a > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will understand is your > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's freedom > > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with violence. One of the > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919... > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 18:10:50 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:10:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet Message-ID: A Million Strong for Tibet: End the violence THE TIBETANS ARE SENDING OUT A GLOBAL CRY FOR CHANGE. After decades of repression, Tibetans are crying out to the world for change. The Tibetan spiritual leader, His Holiness The Dalai Lama, has called for restraint and dialogs: he needs the world's people to support him. But violence is spreading across Tibet and the world, and the Chinese regime is right now considering a choice between increasing brutality or dialogs, that could determine the future of Tibet and China. We can affect this historic choice - China Œdoes¹ care about its international reputation. Its economy is totally dependent on "Made in China" exports that we all buy, and it is keen to make the Olympics in Beijing this summer a celebration of a new China that is a respected world power. The Chinese President Hu Jintao needs to hear that 'Brand China' and the Olympics can succeed only if he makes the right choice. But it will take an avalanche of global people power to get the government's attention. "I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe." - The Dalai Lama ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IMMEDIATE ACTION ````````````````` Sign a petition. Click below to sign a petition to President Hu calling for restraint in Tibet and dialogue with the Dalai Lama -- and tell absolutely everyone you can right away. The petition is organized by Avaaz, and they are urgently aiming to reach 1 million signatures to deliver directly to Chinese officials: http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK Thank you so much for your help! From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 18:41:43 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:41:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6353c690803190611i3706caf1q5fbc75820a89f655@mail.gmail.com> Yeah. Unlike the other "elite class" of Sarai, Sonia did write something about the Tibetans here. I appreciate her. And, on similar lines Pandits continue their protest against terrorist and conscienceless killer Yasin Malik. You can add your voice by signing here http://www.petitiononline.com/ymalik8/ For more details on Malik, visit - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/19/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > A Million Strong for Tibet: End the violence > > THE TIBETANS ARE SENDING OUT A GLOBAL CRY FOR CHANGE. > > After decades of repression, Tibetans are crying out to the world for > change. The Tibetan spiritual leader, His Holiness The Dalai Lama, has > called for restraint and dialogs: he needs the world's people to support > him. But violence is spreading across Tibet and the world, and the Chinese > regime is right now considering a choice between increasing brutality or > dialogs, that could determine the future of Tibet and China. > > We can affect this historic choice - China Œdoes¹ care about its > international reputation. Its economy is totally dependent on "Made in > China" exports that we all buy, and it is keen to make the Olympics in > Beijing this summer a celebration of a new China that is a respected world > power. The Chinese President Hu Jintao needs to hear that 'Brand China' > and > the Olympics can succeed only if he makes the right choice. But it will > take > an avalanche of global people power to get the government's attention. > > "I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not > judge the universe." > - The Dalai Lama > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > IMMEDIATE ACTION > ````````````````` > > Sign a petition. > > Click below to sign a petition to President Hu calling for restraint in > Tibet and dialogue with the Dalai Lama -- and tell absolutely everyone you > can right away. The petition is organized by Avaaz, and they are urgently > aiming to reach 1 million signatures to deliver directly to Chinese > officials: > > http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK > > Thank you so much for your help! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 10:09:43 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:09:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet In-Reply-To: <6353c690803190611i3706caf1q5fbc75820a89f655@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My views on Tibet and my long support for the Dalai Lama and his peaceful 'middle path' (autonomy not independence with full religious and cultural rights) on Tibet are well known, as is my support to the right of return of the exiled Tibetans, Palestinians and Kashmiri Pandits. Have to clarify though that I did not write the petition in support of the Tibetans but merely forwarded the message sent out by the organisation, Avaaz, which I fully endorse. Peerzada Arshad rightly questioned the efficacy of these online petitions. Of course I don't believe that me or you taking a few seconds out to sign a petition is going to change anything in China or anywhere else in the world where there is injustice. But even for a few seconds, it has brought an issue into our consciousness. Perhaps we will think about it today, perhaps we will talk about it with a few friends and colleagues, and make common cause with young Tibetans who are struggling to make sense of a world that supports China because of its economic and military clout while ignoring and making irrelevant a struggle that has remained non-violent for over 60 years. What does one do? How can one creatively respond to situations like these that seem huge, powerful, insurmountable? The easiest thing in the world is to remain cynical or fall into despair. The hardest is to keep faith, optimism and cheerfulness alive. What works for me each time unerringly is to focus on two things: One, change is the nature of the universe. Whether we like it or not the universe is in flux. Time flows, things happen. Seemingly unrelated things sometimes coalesce to bring down the whole house of cards: the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand caused the First World War and the break up of two empires. Notwithstanding the Vietnamese military pressures on the US, the protests in America against Vietnam in the '60's forced the US government to rethink its large-scale interventionist policies for 30 years until Iraq. And two, ideas. The end to slavery, the sun setting on the British Empire, the fall of the Berlin Wall all happened because someone first imagined it was possible. My act of clicking on that petition, (though I'll admit is the worst form of armchair activism) is because I can imagine that another China, which is more humane, more inclusive, more democratic is not only desirable but possible. On 3/19/08 6:41 PM, "Aditya Raj Kaul" wrote: > Yeah. Unlike the other "elite class" of Sarai, Sonia did write something about > the Tibetans here. I appreciate her. And, on similar lines Pandits continue > their protest against terrorist and conscienceless killer Yasin Malik. You can > add your voice by signing here http://www.petitiononline.com/ymalik8/ For > more details on Malik, visit - > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 3/19/08, S. > Jabbar wrote: > > A Million Strong for Tibet: End the > violence > > THE TIBETANS ARE SENDING OUT A GLOBAL CRY FOR CHANGE. > > After > decades of repression, Tibetans are crying out to the world for > change. The > Tibetan spiritual leader, His Holiness The Dalai Lama, has > called for > restraint and dialogs: he needs the world's people to support > him. But > violence is spreading across Tibet and the world, and the Chinese > regime is > right now considering a choice between increasing brutality or > dialogs, that > could determine the future of Tibet and China. > > We can affect this historic > choice - China Œdoes¹ care about its > international reputation. Its economy > is totally dependent on "Made in > China" exports that we all buy, and it is > keen to make the Olympics in > Beijing this summer a celebration of a new > China that is a respected world > power. The Chinese President Hu Jintao needs > to hear that 'Brand China' > and > the Olympics can succeed only if he makes > the right choice. But it will > take > an avalanche of global people power to > get the government's attention. > > "I find hope in the darkest of days, and > focus in the brightest. I do not > judge the universe." > - The Dalai > Lama > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > IMMEDIATE ACTION > ````````````````` > > Sign a > petition. > > Click below to sign a petition to President Hu calling for > restraint in > Tibet and dialogue with the Dalai Lama -- and tell absolutely > everyone you > can right away. The petition is organized by Avaaz, and they > are urgently > aiming to reach 1 million signatures to deliver directly to > Chinese > officials: > > > http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK > > > Thank you so much for your help! > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________________ > ______________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 14:59:56 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:59:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Independant Kashmir won't be a viable state. I do not agree with Yasin says Shekhar Kapur In-Reply-To: <6353c690803200228s502713b9y2f9d42d677292da4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803200228s502713b9y2f9d42d677292da4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803200229p2e0eeef3yc7fd2a8c743909af@mail.gmail.com> *Director Shekhar Kapur and Actress Preity Zinta on Terrorist Yasin Malik* ** *As he (Yasin Malik) left, a young girl came to me brimming with anger. Along with a man who worked with India Today. Both were kashmiri Pundits who had seen themselves ousted forcibly and sometimes cruelly from their homeland. I have met many Kashmiri Pundit's- some of them my friends who believe they are truly the forgotten people. The young girl was as moving as Yasin as she held back her tears, andgry that Yasin was allowed this platform without the audience being told of the atrocities that he and his comrades perpetuated on Kashmiri Pundits. I could totally see her point of view.* ** Later as I was having tea with Priety Zinta she also expressed apprehensions about being on the same platform as Yasin. her father died in the Army and her brother has been fighting and risking his life in Kashmir. Read in detail at - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/03/director-shekhar-kapur-actress-preity.html Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul ** From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 20 16:15:27 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:45:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:"Taslima Nasreen: I have to escape from the death chamber" In-Reply-To: <867533.54740.qm@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <867533.54740.qm@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, all, this is exactly is the position of common citizen in India, be it a asylum seeker or a common admi, the issue of Taslima never was an issue till the left front was forced to divert the attention of common man from the atrocotoes in Singur and Nandigram,where goon cadres could rape ,murder and get away and the media was partisan ,intellectuals atlast got courage to speak about the socialism of left parties in India as practised and seen in these villages of the state of West bengal. Anchors made daily songs and dance of item numbers as they are, anchors, celebrities with eye on declaration of Padma awards, rewards and awards in journalism, with priority for partisan reportage, old footage of Gujarath was daily song and dance in news channels with election campaign for highlighting "hindu" fundamentalism and sycophants badly needed the italian to lead the defunct Indian national Congress, Rahul, ( I do not feel like giving him the surname which he does not deserve) now having new image make over thanks to these item numbers of anchors. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: sabitha t p Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 11:19 pm Subject: [Reader-list]Fwd:"Taslima Nasreen: I have to escape from the death chamber" To: sarai readerlist > Taslima Nasreen is leaving India to rescue her life. She does not > flee from the threat of the fundamentalists, but from the > unbearable conditions in which she is held. For four months now, > the Indian Government is keeping her in solitary confinement at an > undisclosed location. She is not allowed to meet anybody including > closest friends. And worse: she has been denied urgently needed > medical treatment. As a result, her health is in alarming > condition. > > I have been in constant phone contact with Taslima Nasreen in her > secret prison. The following shocking document, written by her > some days ago and sent to me, has been kept under wraps according > to her wishes till the eve of her departure. This morning she told > me that I can release it. >   > Sanal Edamaruku (Rationalist International) >   >   > I HAVE TO ESCAPE FROM THE DEATH CHAMBER > > I used to call this the torture chamber.  I gradually came to > realize that it was the chamber of death instead.  I was not even > allowed to stay in hospital for long though the doctors felt it > was necessary in order to stabilize my blood pressure.  But then, > orders are orders and the government did not want to be > inconvenienced by me in any way whatsoever.  The government did > not want the media to know I had been hospitalized.  I did not > have my mobile phone with me and the doctors at the government's > hospital –AIIMS – were instructed to discharge me after a certain > period of time.  Curiously though, the decision was not left to > the doctors as to what this certain period of time was to be.   > The last time I was admitted to this hospital a few weeks ago I > was suddenly discharged as a result of governmental pressure.  I > am sure this was linked to a report in the Times of India which > stated I had been hospitalized.  > > At this undisclosed location I am neither allowed to go to a > doctor for consultation nor is one allowed to come to me.  I > suffer from severely fluctuating blood pressure and the strange > thing is that I was not even allowed to speak to any of the > doctors at the hospital over the telephone.   Even after repeated > requests I was not given a single phone number.   When I was in > hospital, I asked the doctors if I could call them if necessary > but they said that they were not allowed to hand out their > numbers.  I had to make inquiries through officials to get even > the simplest of answers from these doctors.  I have suffered > tremendously both physically and mentally.  My blood pressure is > now impossible to control.  The  doctors say it is due to stress > which I must avoid at all costs.  How can I not be stressed when > everything is continuously stressing me out?  I am brought to this > place and incarcerated like some animal; my human rights constantly > and continually violated.  I am not allowed to step out or meet > anyone.  How can I not be stressed?  I received the extension of  > my resident's permit, but the status quo continued.  >   > And because of the high blood pressure caused by stress, I > developed heart disease (hypertrophy) and hypertensive > retinopathy, both of which were diagnosed at the hospital.  The > hypertensive retinopathy will eventually cause me to go blind.   > The blood pressure if uncontrolled  destroy the heart, kidneys and > eyes. > Prior to my confinement, my blood pressure had been under control > and all my organs were in perfect condition.   After returning > from hospital, I wanted to leave this country at the earliest as I > knew I would never be free from stress here.  I said I needed to > go to Kolkata urgently to collect a few important documents and > other assorted things including bank cards and to sign my tax > papers.  That too, just the basic permission to visit my Kolkata > flat to wrap up my life there, was denied for security reasons.  > > THEY FINALLY   DID IT > > Even though they constantly pressured me mentally to leave the > country, I refused to budge.  I was determined I would not leave > this country.  When they saw it was pointless trying to destroy my > mind, they attempted to destroy my body.  In this they succeeded > by ruining my health which leaves me with no other alternative but > to leave this country. > > >  I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SEE ANY DOCTOR   FOR  'SECURITY REASONS'   > > It is important that all this be known.   I made repeated requests > to be allowed to consult a medical specialist as my condition was > growing worse with the ever increasing stress I had to face in > this not-so-gilded cage.   I was not allowed to see a doctor for > more than two months.  The decision makers asked the officials not > to attend to me especially when I desperately needed a doctor.  > Two months after my initial request, I was eventually taken to a > quack to an undisclosed third location who could, unsurprisingly, > do nothing at all.  I insisted that I had to see a cardiologist or > at least a specialist.  I was then told that this would entail a > visit to the doctor's chamber.  I agreed to go but was told that I > would not be allowed to go to a doctor's chamber because of the > 'security risks' involved.  I fell very ill and told the officials > I was likely to have a heart attack.  After a few  days,  at the > same undisclosed location, I was > allowed to see a doctor from the AIIMS who prescribed some > medicines after taking which I fainted.  The same night I was > admitted to hospital where my blood pressure fell alarmingly and > had to be given life-saving-drugs   to survive.  The doctors told > me that I needed to spend two or three weeks in hospital but the > officials whisked me away from the critical care unit after just > three days and took me directly to meet the Minister for External > Affairs.   The Minister asked me to leave the country the shock of > which made my blood pressure shoot up to 220/120.   I was rushed > to the hospital but the doctors were instructed by the officials > not toadmit me for 'security reasons'.    In my not-so-gilded > cage, I had no help at all. > > FACTS > It has been nearly eight months that I have been living under > virtual house arrest, in a prison without any facilities.  I have > been asked continuously by the government to leave this country.  > Naturally, this has upset me a great deal as I left Europe to > relocate to India; to make India my permanent home.  I settled in > Kolkata where I was living peacefully in a Bengali milieu.  I was > very active helping oppressed women and writing feminist and > humanist literature.  Just because a few Muslim fundamentalists > objected to my being in this country, I was first imprisoned in > Kolkata and then moved to Delhi.  In order for the politicians to > secure their Muslim vote bank, I had to be locked up and, as a > consequence, my health was irreparably destroyed. > > IMPORTANT > I was not allowed to see a doctor even when my blood pressure was > fluctuating uncontrollably because of the stress put on me by the GoI. > I was not allowed to see a specialist for 'security reasons'. > I was finally seen by a doctor chosen by the GOI, just after > having his prescribed medicine, drug  poisoning started, I fainted > and  I was admitted to a government's  hospital. Life-saving-drugs > saved my life. > I was not allowed to stay in hospital for 'security reasons'. > When it was made clear that I must avoid stress and stressful > situations, I was taken from the CCU( cardiac care unit) to meet > the Minister for External Affairs who put great mental pressure on > me to leave the country. > When my blood pressure reached 220/120 after talking with the > Minister, I begged to get admission in the hospital, but I was not > allowed. > I am not being allowed to go to Kolkata before I leave the country > to pack some important things and secure my house. > I was not allowed to step out for eight months ( 4 months in > Kolkata, 3 and 1/2 months in Delhi) > I was not allowed visiting hours at my place of confinement > I was not allowed to meet my friends and acquaintances >   > Taslima Nasreen > > > > (See also the article “Can anybody live like this?” and other > reports about Taslima’s situation in our Website: > www.rationalistinternational .net) >   > > Recipients of Rationalist International Bulletins are permitted to > reproduce, publish, post or forward articles and reports from the > Bulletin. Please acknowledge Rationalist International Bulletin # > 172. > > > Rationalist International Bulletin is available in English, > French, Spanish, German, Finnish and Portuguese. > >   > HOW TO GET YOUR FREE COPY OF RATIONALIST INTERNATIONAL BULLETIN > REGULARLY? > Please send a blank mail to the following address. Don't forget to > re-confirm when asked. > > English: Rationalist-subscribe at yahoogrou ps.com > Spanish (Español) : Racionalista-subscribe at yahoogro ups.com > French (Français) : Rationaliste-subscribe at yahoogro ups.com > German (Deutsch) : Rationalist_Deutsch-subscribe @yahoogroups.com > Finnish (Suomi) : Rationalisti-subscribe at yahoogro ups.com > Portuguese (Português) :  Portuguese_Racionalist-subscrib > e at yahoogroups.com > RATIONALIST INTERNATIONAL >  President:  Sanal Edamaruku > > Honorary Associates > Dr. Pieter Admiraal (The Netherlands) , Prof. Mike Archer > (Australia),   Katsuaki Asai (Japan), Jocelyn Bézecourt (France), >  Prof. Colin Blakemore (UK),   Dr. Bill Cooke (New Zealand), Dr. > Helena Cronin (UK),  Prof. Richard Dawkins (UK), Jan Loeb Eisler > (USA),Pekka Elo (Finland), Prof. Antony Flew (UK),  Tom Flynn > (USA), Jim Herrick (UK), Christopher Hitchens (USA), >  Ellen Johnson (USA),  Prof. Paul Kurtz (USA), Lavanam (India),  > Dr. Richard Leakey  (Kenya),   Iain Middleton (New Zealand), >  Dr. Henry Morgentaler (Canada),  Maryam Namazie (Iran), Dr. > Taslima Nasreen (Bangladesh) , Steinar Nilsen (Norway), >  Prof. Jean-Claude Pecker (France), James Randi (USA),   Prof. > Ajoy Roy (Bangladesh) , Dr. Younus Shaikh (Pakistan), > Barbara Smoker (UK),  Richard Stallman (USA),  Prof. Rob Tielman > (The Netherlands) , David Tribe (Australia), >  K Veeramani (India), Bary Williams (Australia), Prof. Richard > Wiseman (UK) and Prof. Lewis Wolpert (UK). >   > Deceased:  Sir Hermann Bondi (UK), Prof. Vern Bullough (USA), > Joseph Edamaruku (India),  Dr. G N Jyoti Shankar (USA) > > http://www.rationalistinternational.net > > > 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go > to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Mar 20 16:30:27 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:00:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Zardari's real strength In-Reply-To: <690188.51197.qm@web8401.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <690188.51197.qm@web8401.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey, yours is very interesting post, the same juxtaposed in indian context, is there any one more benefitted after the death of Indira and rajeev other than his sycophants and hangers on ? By the way who got the uncle Q his share of commission of 21 crores released from London bank, any guesses. Indian democracy is fast developing into puberty and the parties are still averring that common man is easily lured by few bucks, booze and slogans.Congress in particular which developed vote banks of communes on the basis of caste, faith and region is now faced with new dilemma as the vote banks are being hijacked by new mavericks in the trade, the fuedal lords of community likes of Gowdas, reddys, yadavs and ofcourse behenji. ! The days of illiterate voters who listenened to mullas and padres and priests and swamis is beginning to end, as more are aware of their political rights, communities know that appeasing one group is at the cost of others, all citizens now need national plan of development, not for any faith, like the lame duck "intelligent" PM and FM planned for muslims and farmers, where money is siphoned off by sycophants with under quality equipments supplied, in Vidarbha. Luckily the slogans like Sonia ki Jai is replaced with Bharath mata ki Jai from all citizens and political parties will do well to recognise the Modi and his way of seeking governance as service to 5 crores of Gujarath, not to hindus, muslims or christians. ! Also it is warning bell for all the psephologists in the payrolls of media barons, who are in turn on the wagons of sycophants to understand that their "power" is limited, but not of media as such. In any vibrant democracy, media and judiciary is respected for being true, non partisan and just, but not necessary that anchors because they are celebrities can get away from being spin doctors for any political party, they are despised and disgusting when they are partisan, use old footage to open the healing wounds of society and rub salt into them for electoral gains as seen in Gujarath election campaign. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 7:54 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Zardari's real strength To: reader-list at sarai.net > While Asif Ali Zardari may be on his way to become the > next PM of Pakistan, it maybe good to have a look at > the properties owned by him. > > Is there anyone in the world who has benefited more > from Benazir's death than Mr. Zardari? > > ASIF ZARDARI SAYS HE SHOULD BE THE PRIME MINISTER > BECAUSE HE IS A WELL KNOWN MAN. HE CERTAINLY IS VERY > WELL KNOWN IN THE FOLLOWING PLACES: > > PROPERTIES OF ASIF ALI ZARDARI > > (as published in the Nation of April 01, 2002) > > THE LOCAL ASSETS ARE: > > Plot no. 121, Phase VIII, DHA Karachi. > > Agricultural land situated in Deh Dali Wadi, Taluka, > Tando Allah Yar. > > Agricultural property located in Deh Tahooki Taluka, > District Hyderabad measuring 65.15 acres. > > Agricultural land falling in Deh 76-Nusrat, Taluka, > District Nawabshah measuring 827.14 acres > > Agricultural land situated in Deh 76-Nusrat, Taluka, > District Nawabshah measuring 293.18 acres > > Residential plot No 3 (Now House) Block No B-I, City > Survey No 2268 Ward-A Nawabshah > > Huma Heights (Asif Apartments) 133, Depot Lines, > Commissariat Road, Karachi > > Trade Tower Building 3/CL/V Abdullah Haroon Road, > Karachi > > House No 8, St 19, F-8/2, Islamabad. > > Agricultural land in Deh 42 Dad Taluka/ District > Nawabshah > > Agricultural land in Deh 51 Dad Taluka Distt > Nawabshah > > Plot No 3 & 4 Sikni (residential) Near Housing Society > Ltd. Nawabshah > > CafT Sheraz (C.S No. 2231/2 & 2231/3) Nawabshah > > Agricultural land in Deh 23-Deh Taluka & District > Nawabshah > > Agricultural property in Deh 72-A, Nusrat Taluka, > Nawabshah > > Agricultural land in Deh 76-Nusrat Taluka, Nawabshah > > Plot No. A/136 Survey No 2346 Ward A Government > Employee's Cooperative Housing Society Ltd, Nawabshah > > Agricultural land in Deh Jaryoon Taluka Tando Allah > Yar, Distt. Hyderabad > > Agricultural land in Deh Aroro Taluka Tando Allah Yar > " " > > Agricultural land in Deh Nondani Taluka Tando Allah > Yar " " > > Agricultural land in Deh Lotko Taluka Tando Allah Yar > " " > > Agricultural land in Deh Jhol Taluka Tando Allah Yar > " " > > Agricultural land in Deh Kandari Taluka Tando Allah > Yar " " > > Agricultural land in Deh Deghi Taluka Tando Mohammad > Khan > > Agricultural land in Deh Rahooki Taluka, Hyderabad > > Property in Deh Charo Taluka, Badin > > Agricultural property in Deh Dali Wadi Taluka, > Hyderabad > > Five acres prime land allotted by DG KDA in 1995/96 > > 4,000 kanals on Simli Dam > > 80 acres of land at Hawkes Bay > > 13 acres of land at Maj Gulradi (KPT Land) > > One acre plot, GCI, Clifton > > One acre of land, State Life (International Center, > Sadar) > > > FEBCs worth Rs. 4 million > > SHARES IN SUGAR MILLS INCLUDE: > > Sakrand Sugar Mills Nawabshah > > Ansari Sugar Mills Hyderabad > > Mirza Sugar Mills Badin > > Pangrio Sugar Mills Thatta > > Bachani Sugar Mills Sanghar > > > FRONT COMPANIES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES: > > Bomer Fiannce Inc, British Virgin Islands > > Mariston Securities Inc, " " " > > Marleton Business S A, " " " > > Capricorn Trading S A, " " " > > Fagarita Consulting INc, " " " > > Marvil Associated Inc, , " " " > > Pawnbury Finance Ltd, " " " > > Oxton Trading Limited, " " " > > Brinslen Invest S A, " " " > > Chimitex Holding S A, " " " > > Elkins Holding S A, " " " > > Minister Invest Ltd, " " " > > Silvernut Investment Inc, " " " > > Tacolen Investment Ltd, " " " > > Marlcrdon Invest S A, " " " > > Dustan Trading Inc, " " " > > Reconstruction and Development Finance Inc, " > " " > > Nassam Alexander Inc. > > Westminster Securities Inc. > > Laptworth Investment Inc 202, Saint Martin Drive, West > Jacksonville > > Intra Foods Inc. 3376, Lomrel Grove, Jacksonville, > Florida > > Dynatel Trading Co, Florida > > A.S Realty Inc. Palm Beach Gardens Florida > > Bon Voyage Travel Consultancy Inc, Florida > > PROPERTIES IN UK ARE: > > 355 acre Rockwood Estate, Surrey (Now stands > admitted) > > Flat 6, 11 Queensgate Terrace, London SW7 > > 26 Palace Mansions, Hammersmith Road, London > W14 > > 27 Pont Street, London, SW1 > > 20 Wilton Crescent, London SW1 > > 23 Lord Chancellor Walk, Coombe Hill, Kingston, > Surrey > > The Mansion, Warren Lane, West Hampstead, > London > > A flat at Queensgate Terrace, London > > Houses at Hammersmith Road, Wilton Crescent, Kingston > and in Hampstead. > > PROPERTIES IN BELGIUM ARE: > > 12-3 Boulevard De-Nieuport, 1000, Brussels, (Building > containing 4 shops and 2 large apartments) > > Chausee De-Mons, 1670, Brussels > > PROPERTIES IN FRANCE ARE: > > La Manoir De La Reine Blanche and property in Cannes > > PROPERTIES IN USA -- in the name of Asif Zardari and > managed by Shimmy Qureshi are: > > Stud farm in Texas > > Wellington Club East, West Palm Beach > > 12165 West Forest Hills, Florida > > Escue Farm 13,524 India Mound, West Palm Beach > > 3,220 Santa Barbara Drive, Wellington Florida > > 13,254 Polo Club Road, West Palm Beach Florida > > 3,000 North Ocean Drive, Singer Islands, > Florida > > 525 South Flager Driver, West Palm Beach, > Florida > > Holiday Inn Houston Owned by Asif Ali Zardari, Iqbal > Memon and Sadar-ud-Din Hashwani > > BANK ACCOUNTS IN FOREGN COMPANIES ARE: > > Union Bank of Switzerland (Account No. 552.343, > 257.556.60Q, 433.142.60V, 216.393.60T) > > Citibank Private Limited (SWZ) (Account No. > 342034) > > Citibank N A Dubai (Account No. 818097) > > Barclays Bank (Suisse) (Account No. 62290209) > > Barclays Bank (Suisse) (Account No. 62274400) > > Banque Centrade Ormard Burrus S A > > Banque Pache S A > > Banque Pictet & Cie > > Banque La Henin, Paris (Account No. > 00101953552) > > Bank Natinede Paris in Geneva (Account NO. > 563.726.9) > > Swiss Bank Corporation > > Chase Manhattan Bank Switzerland > > American Express Bank Switzerland > > Societe De Banque Swissee > > Barclays Bank (Knightsbridge Branch) (Account > No. 90991473) > > Barclays Bank, Kingston and Chelsea Branch, > (Sort Code 20-47-34135) > > National Westminster Bank, Alwych Branch > (Account No. 9683230) > > Habib Bank (Pall Mall Branch). > > National Westminster Bank, Barking Branch, > (Account No. 28558999). > > Habib Bank AG, Moorgate, London EC2 > > National Westminster Bank, Edgware Road, London > > Banque Financiei E Dela Citee, Credit Suisse > > Habib Bank AG Zurich, Switzerland > > Pictet Et Cie, Geneva > > Credit Agricole, Paris > > Credit Agridolf, Branch 11, Place Brevier, > 76440, Forges Les Faux > > Credit Agricole, Branch Haute – Normandie, > 76230, Boise Chillaume > > Zardari has gained sole control of Benazir's assets > and property; by becoming the PPP's co-chairperson he > has taken over the reins of her party; by changing his > name to Asif Bhutto Zardari he has hijacked Bhutto's > political legacy and by becoming the leader of the > largest party of Pakistan he is dreaming of occupying > the Prime Minister and President houses in Islamabad. > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From deepakp7 at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 15:19:26 2008 From: deepakp7 at gmail.com (deepak p) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:19:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [GreenYouth] Kerala - Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala In-Reply-To: <47DF3261.3050201@gmail.com> References: <47DF3261.3050201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <446a7c0e0803180249s5f8e61fdv5324dc167e227808@mail.gmail.com> i can hardly resist from replying to this email.. why do u guys luk upon evrything in a negative way.. i am in no way related to the icrt conference.. but believe that its a good initiative.. lets see what ur major complaints are: 1. calling it incredible india conference on... i dont think thats the name.. its the second edition of international conf on responsible tourism.. http://www.responsibletourism2008.org/ 2. holding it in a luxury hotel where else can u hold conferences with such a lot of international particiaption 3. registration fee is 5000.. this is a scholarly conference man.. and the conference holders are no charity workers.. u have to invite international standard speakers, get the arrangements done etc.. u need money.. i havent seen a scholarly conference of good stature that can afford to charge less than some 150 USD or so.. this is no charity function.. luk up what scholarly conferences are and understand that.. even conferences held in CUSAT have regn fees of 2k at least.. 4. kerala is not very responsible in its tourism initiatives.. okay, thats one probable reason as to why we have this conference at all, rite? if u dont understand what scholarly or academic conferences are.. check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_conference thanks deepak On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Anivar Aravind wrote: > > *Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala* > ============================================== > *Date: 22nd March 2008, 9.30 am* > */Venue:/** Achuthamenon Hall, Near Public Library, Near Shenoy's Theatre* > *Eranakulam.* > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > For the past two decades, Department of Tourism and tourism industry in > Kerala have been promoting Kerala tourism with various jargons such as > "Eco-Tourism", "Sustainable Tourism", etc. There is no exception for > "Responsible Tourism". The present 'mantra' of Kerala Tourism is being > introduced in the state as a solution for 'everything'. > > > But a closer look at the recent developments will give an insight into > the present realities of Kerala Tourism. The "Responsible Tourism" > initiative of Kerala Tourism is not participatory as they claim and > keeping away local communities from the discussion. The current > discussions are not addressing the concerns of affected population which > needs urgent and immediate actions to stop the damages of tourism. At > the same time, the present discussions initiated by Kerala Tourism are > misleading the discussions and debates. They are aimed at marketing > Kerala Tourism abroad without changing or addressing the fundamental > issues here. > > > Kerala Tourism and International Centre for Responsible Tourism – India > (ICRT) in cooperation with 'Incredible India' are organizing "Incredible > India Second International Conference on Responsible Tourism in > Destinations". It is* *to be held from 21st – 24th* *March 2007 in > Kochi, Kerala. This conference is advertised and propagated in a big > manner both nationally and internationally.* * > > According to the organizers, the Conference will be a key global > initiative to help the tourism industry and all its stakeholders to > discuss and debate important developments in the field. The "efforts" of > Kerala Tourism in this direction will also be explored at the > conference. The conference will also "reflect on Kerala's experience of > working towards being a Responsible Tourism destination and to share it > internationally". > > > > But there is a very evident contradiction in the way they are organizing > the conference and its promises. The conference excludes very important > stakeholders from the discussions. It is an event for elites held at a > luxury hotel. The registration fee for the conference is a testimony for > this. Even the reduced fee is equivalent to Indian Rupees 5,000, which > is still beyond the reach of majority of local 'stakeholders'. > > > > The programme schedule of the conference advertised "Mararikulam as an > emerging beach destination". But the present reality in this area shows > that the conference organizers underestimate the socio-cultural and > economic impact of tourism on local communities. While they say > "Mararikulam is about one local entrepreneur kick starting a > destination. It is also about the emerging opportunities for the local > community", the experience of the local community is quite different. > Tourism in this area has caused a real estate boom and the local > entrepreneur mentioned has set a trend which resulted in market induced > displacement of fisher folk from the area. > > > > There is no paradigm shift in the way Kerala is developing its tourism > sector. The current discussions are just a hype to change the fading > images of Kerala tourism and portray it as a responsible destination in > the international market. > > > > Neither the conference nor the "Responsible Tourism" initiative in the > state addresses any of the serious problems of the so called "Kerala > Model Tourism Development" in its agenda. At the same time, this ill > affected model demonstrates how unregulated and weak policies have > facilitated unsustainable tourism development in the state which > alienated the local population especially the marginalized from their > peaceful life and livelihood. Kerala Tourism is pretending that the > initiative is partipatory but at the same time they are strategically > excluding local communities from the conference and discussions to hide > the fundamental issues raised by them from the international community. > > > > This state of affairs convinced *Kerala Tourism Watch *to facilitate a > convention against the malpractices of Kerala tourism and against > proclaiming it as "Responsible Tourism. The Convention will take place > on 22^nd March 2008 at Achuthamenon Hall (Near Public Library), > Eranakulam where we will get to raise our voice and bring more attention > to the issues raised by the civil society of Kerala. > > > > The convention will be a broad platform of civil society organizations > and people's movements to discuss and critically analyze the present > tourism trends, tourism practices in the state. Participation is free, > of course. No participation fee! > > > > We request you to be part of the convention and our efforts to unveil > Kerala tourism's ill affected tourism practices and hidden agendas. > > Please send your suggestions, comments and feed back to: > tourismwatch.kerala at gmail.com > > In Solidarity > > Kerala Tourism Watch > > Robin, Keralaeeyam, Thrissur - Ph: + 91 9446576943 > > Geo Jose, Ph: + 91 9446000701 > > > * *About Kerala Tourism Watch** > > Kerala Tourism Watch is an informal coalition of civil society activists > and local communities to respond to the threats and challenges posed by > exploitative and undemocratic tourism practices in Kerala that upset > people's livelihood and cause cultural, environmental, economic and > social maladies that the Government is unable to control. > > Kerala is a state in Indian Union known for its remarkable > achievements in social sectors such as health and education based on > decades of social mobilization and political articulation of oppressed > castes and communities in the 19th and 20th centuries. A vibrant and > vigilant civil society has been the hall mark of the state which has > forced successive governments belonging to the centrist and left > persuasions to make progressive legislations, implement social security > programmes and democratize institutional structures and procedures > within the confines of the dependency relations of the productive > sectors to national and international labour and commodities markets. > > Right from the 1980s when Hotel Industry in the state, supported by > the government policies and bureaucratic intermediation, began an > aggressive campaign to market Kerala as a tourism destination, civil > society groups and social movements have raised concerns about its > harmful impacts on the social, economic, cultural and environmental > fronts. The history of civil society activism in Kerala in the last few > decades is marked also by the strong presence of oppositional voices > against the unjust and undemocratic nature of tourism practices in the > state. > > Local communities in Kerala who are seriously affected by the > exploitative tourism development in the state are now on the brink of a > social, environmental and cultural breakdown as their rights to > livelihood is threatened in an unprecedented manner by state policies > mandating reactionary legislations, forced and market mediated evictions > and increasing economic and cultural marginalization. Local > communities are loosing their land, jobs and indigenous cultures as a > result of the assaults of commercial tourism. > > As a collective, Kerala Tourism Watch believes that Kerala > Government's Tourism Department has been long ignoring the demands > raised by local communities and civil society organizations for a > democratized and equitable tourism development in the state. The > Department has been ridiculously vocal in its rhetorical assertions > about practicing ecotourism, responsible tourism, participatory tourism > etc., -the buzzwords of the day. The reality is however, is that the > fundamental practices of mass commercial tourism remains the same > irrespective of the catchy names appropriated by the department for > marketing Kerala as a global destination. Even the pathetic pastiche > 'God's Own Country' is nothing more than a public relations stunt. > Kerala tourism, obviously, has a long way to go in achieving basic goals > of transparency, accountability and responsiveness. > > At a time when Indigenous people, fishing communities, local > populations and civil society groups are engaged in relentless struggles > against irresponsible tourism development and policies of the > Governments and the tourism Department in the state, we understand that > documentation and campaign support are crucially important for the > success of the movements. Kerala Tourism Watch will hence, attempt to > update information on the campaigns, movements, policies, networks and > every possible aspect of societal impacts of tourism in the state. > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Green Youth Movement" group. > To post to this group, send email to greenyouth at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > greenyouth-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > -- Deepak P http://deepakp7.googlepages.com/ From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Mar 20 21:37:11 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <32144e990803190507h7b9f8da8ve9dc1a257067e2eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <701863.44343.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Partha, Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly note the difference in everything. >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just follow >>>what I believe is right. What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry to say this. >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed hate and >>>more violence and can not be a solution. "violence is the only solution for violence." you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start believing anything. >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or profess to >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my cousin >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging in a >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). What do your cousin feel about youself??? JAI HIND INDIA. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Pawan, a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just follow what I believe is right. b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed hate and more violence and can not be a solution. c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume that is 'AsitRed'). However, must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block without punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or profess to here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my cousin who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging in a debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - are you proposing that the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more violence - because that is what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot point of the debate. Rgds, Partha ..................... On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust you to > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in the bunch, > maintain double standards. > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the start up line > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > Disappointed ! > > Pawan > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - just more > > death and hate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................... > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence ......But > > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like Yasine > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider Yasin Malik a > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will understand is your > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's freedom > > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with violence. One of the > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist understand ? > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always considered it > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's something all > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. If it > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The organiser of > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick his feet > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece of mind > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 where he > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919... > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 11:08:20 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:38:20 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Who's Afraid of "promito" Bangla Message-ID: Who's Afraid of "promito" Bangla (A debate on the future of Bangla language) On Anisul Huq's "Arshinogor", the debate over "gali galaj" in Kali o Kolom, why Mustafa Sarwar Faruqui calls his mega tv serial "420", are Djuice kids proletarianizing Bangla, why Monzurul Islam is so scared of "khaise korsi" literature, why the time for Tagore-ian Bangla (whatever that may be) is over, etc and other related debates or as we would say "ajaira pyachal" Naeem Mohaiemen in conversation with Bratya Raisu Kozmo Cafe Sat Masjid Road Dhanmondi, Dhaka March 22, 8 pm [the name Kozmo comes from "cosmopolitan" and cafe owner Arif Hafiz (ex- American Express) would be first to describe it as "branding, branding, branding". I had an argument this morning with him about why he was charging 150 taka/head for the event. But his response is, if you are arguing that Shantiniketan mafia stronghold on "purity" of Bangla should be smashed, why would you want culture spaces to be "pure" i.e. free and under the shade of the banyan tree. I am still masticating that response, may incorporate it into the discussion tomorrow.] [details of this event also on facebook-- search for kozmo cafe] From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 18:11:30 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:41:30 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Siva on Googlization of Everything Message-ID: The Googlization of Everything http://www.googlizationofeverything.com/2007/09/hi_welcome_to_my_book.php From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Mar 22 14:14:26 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 13:44:26 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <701863.44343.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990803190507h7b9f8da8ve9dc1a257067e2eb@mail.gmail.com> <701863.44343.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, all. All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand gandhi was as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India which did not include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji Subhash was popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian national Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High Command " then chose Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER OR POSITION lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE prime minister HIMSELF. His greed for position and favour and nepotism and dynastical fervour is seen in free India. Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the Rajeevs and Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good human, with good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, selfish, never cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. Regards.. From: we wi Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition To: Partha Dasgupta , Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Partha, > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > note the difference in everything. > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I > just follow > >>>what I believe is right. > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > to say this. > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > breed hate and > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > believing anything. > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > or profess to > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > list except my cousin > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > what of me. > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > engaging in a > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Pawan, > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > followwhat I believe is right. > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > hate and > more violence and > can not be a solution. > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > that is > 'AsitRed'). However, > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block > without > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > profess to > here is not > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > cousinwho > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > in a > debate when > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - > are you > proposing that > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > violence - > because that is > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > pointof the debate. > > Rgds, Partha > ..................... > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Partha , > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > you to > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > the bunch, > > maintain double standards. > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the > start up line > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - > just more > > > death and hate. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ................... > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > Yasine> > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > Yasin Malik a > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > understand is your > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > violence. One of the > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > considered it > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > something all > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > If it > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > organiser of > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > his feet > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > of mind > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > where he > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! Search. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 15:18:26 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:18:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990803190507h7b9f8da8ve9dc1a257067e2eb@mail.gmail.com> <701863.44343.qm@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803220248v4ecfbbdbo5edc0205f0c6a9d1@mail.gmail.com> Hi, To get back to the topic at hand: 1. Is violence the only answer, and will it solve anything (other than killing many more people) ? 2. Why is the central question of survival and re-institution being ignored with shrill insistence upon retribution? 3. If the only requirement is retribution (as seems to be the constant demand) instead of more urgent requirements like rehabilitation, then lets just set up a 'kill list' and get it over and done with - and in the same process committing the same crime as those we are pointing our fingers at. Any answers? Actual answers - and not jumping around specific words and sentences without referring to the central issues. Rgds, Partha ............................................. On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 2:14 PM, wrote: > Hi, all. > > All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand gandhi was > as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India which did not > include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji Subhash was > popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian national > Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High Command " then chose > Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. > > Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, > reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was > born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH > SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, > SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER OR > POSITION lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE prime minister > HIMSELF. His greed for position and favour and nepotism and dynastical > fervour is seen in free India. > Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the Rajeevs and > Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good human, with > good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, selfish, never > cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. > Regards.. > From: we wi > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > To: Partha Dasgupta , Pawan Durani < > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Partha, > > > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > > note the difference in everything. > > > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I > > just follow > > >>>what I believe is right. > > > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > > to say this. > > > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > > breed hate and > > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > > believing anything. > > > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > > or profess to > > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > > list except my cousin > > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > > what of me. > > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > > engaging in a > > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Pawan, > > > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > > followwhat I believe is right. > > > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > > hate and > > more violence and > > can not be a solution. > > > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > > that is > > 'AsitRed'). However, > > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block > > without > > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > > profess to > > here is not > > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > > cousinwho > > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. > > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > > in a > > debate when > > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - > > are you > > proposing that > > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > > violence - > > because that is > > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > > pointof the debate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ..................... > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > > you to > > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > > the bunch, > > > maintain double standards. > > > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the > > start up line > > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - > > just more > > > > death and hate. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ................... > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > > Yasine> > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > > Yasin Malik a > > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > > understand is your > > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > > violence. One of the > > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > > considered it > > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > > something all > > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > > If it > > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > > organiser of > > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > > his feet > > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > > of mind > > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > > where he > > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! Search. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From stevphen at autonomedia.org Sat Mar 22 18:29:16 2008 From: stevphen at autonomedia.org (stevphen shukaitis) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:59:16 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] London Funded PhD Positions Message-ID: <479468BB-C80D-4DE0-9BFF-ADF47C461E2E@autonomedia.org> Greetings, If anyone would be interested (or knows someone who is) in doing a funded PhD on some autonomist / feminist / postcolonial / queer theory influenced area, see the info below. The department website isn’t much to look at the moment, but things will look better as more interesting folks gather around. In particular there are three positions that are open: 1. on Intellectual Property and Global Development (in collaboration with the Queen Mary Intellectual Property Research Institute [QMIPRI], Centre for Commercial Law Studies). 2. on Creative Enterprise and the Cultural Industries (in collaboration with the Department of Drama). 3. Critical organisation studies and/or Business and Management (see list of research areas below) Those interested in using the business school’s funds to kick capital from inside can write to Peter Fleming (p.fleming at qmul.ac.uk) for more information. Cheers Stevphen Queen Mary, University of London PhD Studentships in Business and Management The School of Business and Management is offering a PhD research studentship in each of the following areas: Equality and Diversity - employment relations, global and organizational diversity management, labour force and sectoral studies, migration, professional and low paid work, career studies; Critical Management and Political Economy –informed by feminism, Marxism, postcolonial theory, cultural and literary studies, linguistic and discursive analysis, international political economy; Globalisation - trends in real wages and labour productivity, organization and social networks, knowledge and innovation, property rights and institutions, multinationals, global brands, development and monetary economics; Management and Organisational History – company and sectoral histories, genealogical/archaeological approaches, hidden aspects of history such as forced labour/slavery, consumption and the heritage industry. Applications should be clearly related to one of these areas and must include a proposal (3,000 words) outlining the intended area of research. Candidates should have a good honours degree in a relevant subject and preferably a Master’s degree. Successful applicants receive a stipend of approximately £14,300 pa plus tuition fees. Awards start in September 2007 and are tenable for up to three years. Closing date for applications: 1 May 2008. Application forms are available from Peter Smith, Admissions Office, email admissions at qmul.ac.uk, tel +44 (0)20 7882 5533 or via the website: http://www.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/apply/index.html Candidates must apply as a regular PhD student with an indication that they intend to apply for the studentship. The deadline for applications are March 28 for the Creative Enterprise and the Cultural Industries (sorry about the short turn around time here, but this date was just set by the Department of Drama for internal reasons) and May 1st for the other studentships. -- Stevphen Shukaitis Autonomedia Editorial Collective http://www.autonomedia.org http://slash.interactivist.net "Autonomy is not a fixed, essential state. Like gender, autonomy is created through its performance, by doing/becoming; it is a political practice. To become autonomous is to refuse authoritarian and compulsory cultures of separation and hierarchy through embodied practices of welcoming difference... Becoming autonomous is a political position for it thwarts the exclusions of proprietary knowledge and jealous hoarding of resources, and replaces the social and economic hierarchies on which these depend with a politics of skill exchange, welcome, and collaboration. Freely sharing these with others creates a common wealth of knowledge and power that subverts the domination and hegemony of the master’s rule." - subRosa Collective From mitoo at sarai.net Fri Mar 21 09:28:12 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:58:12 -1200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Change in timing of Film Screening on the 28th at Sarai Message-ID: <47E33254.9040909@sarai.net> Dear All, This is to inform you that the screening time for the film *Maribu Pache Daribu Nahi* at Sarai on the 28th of March has been shifted from 4:30 pm to 2:00 pm. Do note the change and please come for the screening. Thanks, Mitoo Das ---------------------- Programme Coordinator Sarai, CSDS -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From raviv at sarai.net Thu Mar 20 16:30:27 2008 From: raviv at sarai.net (raviv at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:30:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] [Fwd: asia europe cluster scholarships] Message-ID: <47E243CB.9040108@sarai.net> -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 08:56:29 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:56:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Media_release_on_=E2=80=98Irresponsible_T?= =?utf-8?q?ourism_Convention=E2=80=99?= Message-ID: <35f96d470803222026o4e16fc76gfbd72e160fed71bb@mail.gmail.com> *Media release on 'Irresponsible Tourism Convention'* Kochi: 22/03/2008: Civil society organizations and representatives of people's movements from various parts of Kerala, India organized a protest march against Kerala's irresponsible tourism practices and held a parallel people's Convention at Achuthamenon Hall, Eranakulam on 'Irresponsible Tourism' under the banner of Kerala Tourism Watch. They made their strong protest against the irresponsible practices of Kerala Tourism. The groups made their reservations against the non participatory nature of the present Responsible Tourism initiative of Kerala Tourism. This convention was a response to the International Conference on Responsible Tourism held on 21st– 24 th at Le Meridien in Kochi organized by Kerala Tourism and International Centre for Responsible Tourism- India. Geo Jose made an introductory speech and welcomed the gathering. "Real Stakeholders distanced from Responsible Tourism" Justice K.P.Radha Krishna Menon inaugurated the Convention. In his speech he pointed out that "five Star International Responsible Tourism conference in Kochi without involving real stake holders and common people will only come out with decisions favoring big players". Kerala Tourism branding itself as Responsible Tourism is just a marketing gimmick while it is not making any attempt to ameliorate the damages created by its own harmful and irresponsible tourism practices. He reminded the Government that irresponsibility can never become responsible if it is given official sanction by the bureaucrats. Civil society and judiciary can act against this since this is a clear violation of the Constitution. C.R Neelakandan a noted environmentalist and social activist who was moderating the technical session pointed out the fact that the tax revenue collected from tourism by the state government is less than the budgetary allocation made for tourism. He stressed the need for a periodical social auditing of tourism development in the state. "*Department of Tourism producing baseless statistics of Growth"* Sri.Saroop Roy (Equations, Bangalore) said that the role of Local Self Governments (LSG) is curtailed by an act passed by Kerala Legislative assembly called Kerala Tourism (Conservation and preservation of areas) act 2005.According to the act the role of the LSGs is limited to looking in to whether the decisions made by a high level bureaucratic committee is followed in their jurisdiction. Equations pointed out that Tourism industry and department of tourism are producing baseless statistics and growth rate for getting more fund allocation and benefits for tourism industry. Sri.Sumesh Mangalassery (KABANI – the other direction) said that the recent activity of Kerala Tourism shows that there are no fundamental changes in the way department is developing tourism within the state. He pointed out that while sidelining social and environment responsibility and giving importance to economic responsibility the role of the local people is just limited as suppliers of vegetables. The proposed construction of an artificial reef in Kovalam with Tsunami Rehabilitation Fund was not consulted with the Destination Level Responsible Tourism Committee formed under the Responsible Tourism initiative. Then what is the rationale of such committees he asked. "*Responsible tourism- a Globalization Agenda"* Magline Peter from the Coastal Fisherwomen Forum said that there is no space for local communities especially the marginalized for voicing their concerns over tourism projects and to be involved in the planning process. Sainudheen, President of Solidarity Youth Movement pointed out that Responsible Tourism initiative is part of the globalization agenda. The speakers representing various organizations, civil society and people's movements such as M.N.Giri (Kerala Congress Secular), Sreekumar (Janakeeya Prathirodha Samithi) Yesudas Varapuzha (Periyar Malineekarana Samithi), Robin (Keraleeyam), Elias, Gopinathan (KSSP), P.L.John Kutty, Fr. Prasanth spoke on the occasion and raised their concerns regarding the noe-liberal economic paradigm that underlies Kerala Tourism's responsible tourism initiative. They emphasized that the initiative yet another move to cover up the growing maladies of Kerala Tourism such as child sex, marginalization and displacement of the poor, destruction of people's livelihood in the name of tourism development and eroticization and feminization of women's work. Representatives of 15 organisations and many individuals attended the conference and cautioned Kerala Tourism for more protests if government is not addressing the concerns of affected people.A draft Kerala Civil society declaration on responsible tourism presented in the convention and will be released on 24th thorugh a media conference at Eranakulam. *Protest March to the Venue of International Responsible Tourism Conference * Earlier in the day local community leaders and civil society activists marched to the venue of the International Responsible Tourism Conference protesting it elitist agenda, complicity in propagating neo-liberal commercial tourism and non-inclusive character. Scores of people participated in the march braving heavy rains. They raised slogans against the indifference and apathy of Kerala's Tourism Department towards the victims of tourism and condemned its joint ventures with pro-industry International Organizations like ICRT. The peaceful and nonviolent protest was blocked by the police close to the venue (Hotel Le Meridien). From gitika.talwar at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 11:41:09 2008 From: gitika.talwar at gmail.com (Gitika Talwar) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 01:11:09 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [GreenYouth] Kerala - Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala In-Reply-To: <446a7c0e0803180249s5f8e61fdv5324dc167e227808@mail.gmail.com> References: <47DF3261.3050201@gmail.com> <446a7c0e0803180249s5f8e61fdv5324dc167e227808@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9949efb0803222311v1793cd75w4f4de315500f1ec@mail.gmail.com> Dear Deepak, The problem with a lot of academic conferences is the fact that they are disconnected from a lot of local non-academic stakeholders who have some extremely real 'non-academic' concerns that require representation but are not provided representation for a number of reasons. Language, niche (but highly valid concerns), inability to pay registration amounts, simply not being made informed about the conference. the list is just beginning. I agree with your point about the importance of money etc in organizing a conference but what I need to know from anybody who knows - "what arrangements are made for people who cannot pay that registration amount - can there be scholarships provided?" It is a very very very real concern that representation at conferences or movements can eventually boil down to questions of who can really afford to be present. Academic conferences anywhere - including the kind of places that Wikipedia may talk about, all of them suffer from the same concern - that academic conferences rarely provide a platform for non-academic people to be present, even if the conference is more about them than the academicians. Hoping to hear more about BOTH the 'responsible Kerala tourism' conferences. ~ Gitika On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 4:49 AM, deepak p wrote: > i can hardly resist from replying to this email.. why do u guys luk upon > evrything in a negative way.. i am in no way related to the icrt > conference.. but believe that its a good initiative.. lets see what ur major > complaints are: > > 1. calling it incredible india conference on... > > i dont think thats the name.. its the second edition of international conf > on responsible tourism.. http://www.responsibletourism2008.org/ > > 2. holding it in a luxury hotel > > where else can u hold conferences with such a lot of international > particiaption > > 3. registration fee is 5000.. > > this is a scholarly conference man.. and the conference holders are no > charity workers.. u have to invite international standard speakers, get the > arrangements done etc.. u need money.. i havent seen a scholarly conference > of good stature that can afford to charge less than some 150 USD or so.. > this is no charity function.. luk up what scholarly conferences are and > understand that.. even conferences held in CUSAT have regn fees of 2k at > least.. > > 4. kerala is not very responsible in its tourism initiatives.. > > okay, thats one probable reason as to why we have this conference at all, > rite? > > > if u dont understand what scholarly or academic conferences are.. check this > out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_conference > > thanks > deepak > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Anivar Aravind > wrote: > > > > > > > *Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala* > > ============================================== > > *Date: 22nd March 2008, 9.30 am* > > */Venue:/** Achuthamenon Hall, Near Public Library, Near Shenoy's Theatre* > > *Eranakulam.* > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > > > For the past two decades, Department of Tourism and tourism industry in > > Kerala have been promoting Kerala tourism with various jargons such as > > "Eco-Tourism", "Sustainable Tourism", etc. There is no exception for > > "Responsible Tourism". The present 'mantra' of Kerala Tourism is being > > introduced in the state as a solution for 'everything'. > > > > > > But a closer look at the recent developments will give an insight into > > the present realities of Kerala Tourism. The "Responsible Tourism" > > initiative of Kerala Tourism is not participatory as they claim and > > keeping away local communities from the discussion. The current > > discussions are not addressing the concerns of affected population which > > needs urgent and immediate actions to stop the damages of tourism. At > > the same time, the present discussions initiated by Kerala Tourism are > > misleading the discussions and debates. They are aimed at marketing > > Kerala Tourism abroad without changing or addressing the fundamental > > issues here. > > > > > > Kerala Tourism and International Centre for Responsible Tourism – India > > (ICRT) in cooperation with 'Incredible India' are organizing "Incredible > > India Second International Conference on Responsible Tourism in > > Destinations". It is* *to be held from 21st – 24th* *March 2007 in > > Kochi, Kerala. This conference is advertised and propagated in a big > > manner both nationally and internationally.* * > > > > According to the organizers, the Conference will be a key global > > initiative to help the tourism industry and all its stakeholders to > > discuss and debate important developments in the field. The "efforts" of > > Kerala Tourism in this direction will also be explored at the > > conference. The conference will also "reflect on Kerala's experience of > > working towards being a Responsible Tourism destination and to share it > > internationally". > > > > > > > > But there is a very evident contradiction in the way they are organizing > > the conference and its promises. The conference excludes very important > > stakeholders from the discussions. It is an event for elites held at a > > luxury hotel. The registration fee for the conference is a testimony for > > this. Even the reduced fee is equivalent to Indian Rupees 5,000, which > > is still beyond the reach of majority of local 'stakeholders'. > > > > > > > > The programme schedule of the conference advertised "Mararikulam as an > > emerging beach destination". But the present reality in this area shows > > that the conference organizers underestimate the socio-cultural and > > economic impact of tourism on local communities. While they say > > "Mararikulam is about one local entrepreneur kick starting a > > destination. It is also about the emerging opportunities for the local > > community", the experience of the local community is quite different. > > Tourism in this area has caused a real estate boom and the local > > entrepreneur mentioned has set a trend which resulted in market induced > > displacement of fisher folk from the area. > > > > > > > > There is no paradigm shift in the way Kerala is developing its tourism > > sector. The current discussions are just a hype to change the fading > > images of Kerala tourism and portray it as a responsible destination in > > the international market. > > > > > > > > Neither the conference nor the "Responsible Tourism" initiative in the > > state addresses any of the serious problems of the so called "Kerala > > Model Tourism Development" in its agenda. At the same time, this ill > > affected model demonstrates how unregulated and weak policies have > > facilitated unsustainable tourism development in the state which > > alienated the local population especially the marginalized from their > > peaceful life and livelihood. Kerala Tourism is pretending that the > > initiative is partipatory but at the same time they are strategically > > excluding local communities from the conference and discussions to hide > > the fundamental issues raised by them from the international community. > > > > > > > > This state of affairs convinced *Kerala Tourism Watch *to facilitate a > > convention against the malpractices of Kerala tourism and against > > proclaiming it as "Responsible Tourism. The Convention will take place > > on 22^nd March 2008 at Achuthamenon Hall (Near Public Library), > > Eranakulam where we will get to raise our voice and bring more attention > > to the issues raised by the civil society of Kerala. > > > > > > > > The convention will be a broad platform of civil society organizations > > and people's movements to discuss and critically analyze the present > > tourism trends, tourism practices in the state. Participation is free, > > of course. No participation fee! > > > > > > > > We request you to be part of the convention and our efforts to unveil > > Kerala tourism's ill affected tourism practices and hidden agendas. > > > > Please send your suggestions, comments and feed back to: > > tourismwatch.kerala at gmail.com > > > > In Solidarity > > > > Kerala Tourism Watch > > > > Robin, Keralaeeyam, Thrissur - Ph: + 91 9446576943 > > > > Geo Jose, Ph: + 91 9446000701 > > > > > > * *About Kerala Tourism Watch** > > > > Kerala Tourism Watch is an informal coalition of civil society activists > > and local communities to respond to the threats and challenges posed by > > exploitative and undemocratic tourism practices in Kerala that upset > > people's livelihood and cause cultural, environmental, economic and > > social maladies that the Government is unable to control. > > > > Kerala is a state in Indian Union known for its remarkable > > achievements in social sectors such as health and education based on > > decades of social mobilization and political articulation of oppressed > > castes and communities in the 19th and 20th centuries. A vibrant and > > vigilant civil society has been the hall mark of the state which has > > forced successive governments belonging to the centrist and left > > persuasions to make progressive legislations, implement social security > > programmes and democratize institutional structures and procedures > > within the confines of the dependency relations of the productive > > sectors to national and international labour and commodities markets. > > > > Right from the 1980s when Hotel Industry in the state, supported by > > the government policies and bureaucratic intermediation, began an > > aggressive campaign to market Kerala as a tourism destination, civil > > society groups and social movements have raised concerns about its > > harmful impacts on the social, economic, cultural and environmental > > fronts. The history of civil society activism in Kerala in the last few > > decades is marked also by the strong presence of oppositional voices > > against the unjust and undemocratic nature of tourism practices in the > > state. > > > > Local communities in Kerala who are seriously affected by the > > exploitative tourism development in the state are now on the brink of a > > social, environmental and cultural breakdown as their rights to > > livelihood is threatened in an unprecedented manner by state policies > > mandating reactionary legislations, forced and market mediated evictions > > and increasing economic and cultural marginalization. Local > > communities are loosing their land, jobs and indigenous cultures as a > > result of the assaults of commercial tourism. > > > > As a collective, Kerala Tourism Watch believes that Kerala > > Government's Tourism Department has been long ignoring the demands > > raised by local communities and civil society organizations for a > > democratized and equitable tourism development in the state. The > > Department has been ridiculously vocal in its rhetorical assertions > > about practicing ecotourism, responsible tourism, participatory tourism > > etc., -the buzzwords of the day. The reality is however, is that the > > fundamental practices of mass commercial tourism remains the same > > irrespective of the catchy names appropriated by the department for > > marketing Kerala as a global destination. Even the pathetic pastiche > > 'God's Own Country' is nothing more than a public relations stunt. > > Kerala tourism, obviously, has a long way to go in achieving basic goals > > of transparency, accountability and responsiveness. > > > > At a time when Indigenous people, fishing communities, local > > populations and civil society groups are engaged in relentless struggles > > against irresponsible tourism development and policies of the > > Governments and the tourism Department in the state, we understand that > > documentation and campaign support are crucially important for the > > success of the movements. Kerala Tourism Watch will hence, attempt to > > update information on the campaigns, movements, policies, networks and > > every possible aspect of societal impacts of tourism in the state. > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Green Youth Movement" group. > > To post to this group, send email to greenyouth at googlegroups.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > greenyouth-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB > > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > > > > > > -- > Deepak P > http://deepakp7.googlepages.com/ > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- we are realists, we dream the impossible - Che Guevera From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 11:57:22 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:57:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [GreenYouth] Kerala - Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala In-Reply-To: <9949efb0803222311v1793cd75w4f4de315500f1ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <47DF3261.3050201@gmail.com> <446a7c0e0803180249s5f8e61fdv5324dc167e227808@mail.gmail.com> <9949efb0803222311v1793cd75w4f4de315500f1ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470803222327g749e5ebbw6a4f9a90273b6b4b@mail.gmail.com> I think my reply to deepak is not appeared on readers list (sorry for crossposting) deepak p wrote: > i can hardly resist from replying to this email.. why do u guys luk upon > evrything in a negative way.. i am in no way related to the icrt > conference.. but believe that its a good initiative.. lets see what ur > major complaints are: First of all, we have not figured the campaign as a negative one. I think Deepak is not carefully read the points we raised. We are trying to bring the concern that the present discussion is not participative. The department and industry is giving an image that all are moving towards Responsible Way. But at the same time the present tourism development in the state is continuing with no difference in practice. If you want more examples for this we can give you. Our major point is that the present Responsible initiative is not addressing fundamental issues. For eg: Kovalam they constituted a Destination Level Responsible Tourism committee (DLRTC) and some of its aims and objectives are to lead the participatory planning process at the destination for the decisions and actions for the implementation that ensure the transparency and accountability of the programme. At the same time Department of Tourism is constructing an artificial reef in Kovalam.Please ask Responsible Kerala Tourism that whether they consulted this project with the "participatory "committee or not? So this is what happening all over the state. One side they pretend that they are responsible and the other hand they are developing tourism which is completely irresponsible. Fishermen in the area say that from their previous experience the artificial reef is harmful to their livelihood option and they fear the loss of 500 people's livelihood (Of course they are not academics to sit in an Ac room and discuss this) they are using their way of protest. > 1. calling it incredible india conference on... > > i dont think thats the name.. its the second edition of international > conf on responsible tourism.. > http://www.responsibletourism2008.org/ Secondly, please go through the website http://www.responsibletourism2008.org/event.php where you can see the name "Incredible India Second International Conference on Responsible Tourism in Destinations". > 2. holding it in a luxury hotel > > where else can u hold conferences with such a lot of international > particiaption Please go through the Responsible Tourism concept carefully (Cape Town declaration and other documents) they all talking about economic leakage." Maximise local economic benefits by increasing linkages and reducing leakages, by ensuring that communities are involved in, and benefit from, tourism. Wherever possible use tourism to assist in poverty reduction by adopting pro-poor strategies". Learn carefully who is Le Meridian and where this money goes? What is the role of local communities in such hotel like Le – Meridian? > 3. registration fee is 5000.. > > this is a scholarly conference man.. and the conference holders are > no charity workers.. u have to invite international standard > speakers, get the arrangements done etc.. u need money.. i havent > seen a scholarly conference of good stature that can afford to charge > less than some 150 USD or so.. this is no charity function.. luk up > what scholarly conferences are and understand that.. even conferences > held in CUSAT have regn fees of 2k at least.. > > > if u dont understand what scholarly or academic conferences are.. > check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_conference Of course the conference organizers are not charity workers. But please go through the web site you mentioned and check who the organizers are. You can see that "Incredible India "and Kerala Tourism both are govermenment departments and they have the 'constitutional obligation' to listen the concern of all the stakeholders not just "scholars ". And most importantly this conference is discussing serious issues which have impact on thousand's of people's livelihood. So it is their right to participate. For that they do not need to search wikipedia and all (Wikipedia is not a solution for all the problems!!!). You can also see that Rs. 5,000 is not for academician's fee. That's the fee for NGOs and other "Poor" categories. "The Conference will be a key global initiative to help the tourism industry and all its stakeholders to discuss and debate important developments in the field ". This statement is from the organiser's website and which clearly said that all the stakeholder. So scholars are just one stakeholder and they do not have right to represent other stakeholders and affected communities. It is also important to know that the responsible tourism concept always support pro poor tourism, participation etc. This registration fee is denying certain communities access and they are the most important stakeholders > 4. kerala is not very responsible in its tourism initiatives.. > > okay, thats one probable reason as to why we have this conference at > all, rite? No you are totally wrong. Please go thorough the invitation letter posted on the list. One of our main concerns is that the present conference and Responsible Tourism initiative is not addressing the fundamental issues such as unsustainable growth of tourism, pollution etc .At the same time they are discussing the production of vegetables and milk for tourism industry( If the local communities are producing these they don't need a tourism market to sell). On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Gitika Talwar wrote: > Dear Deepak, > > The problem with a lot of academic conferences is the fact that they > are disconnected from a lot of local non-academic stakeholders who > have some extremely real 'non-academic' concerns that require > representation but are not provided representation for a number of > reasons. Language, niche (but highly valid concerns), inability to pay > registration amounts, simply not being made informed about the > conference. the list is just beginning. > > I agree with your point about the importance of money etc in > organizing a conference but what I need to know from anybody who knows > - "what arrangements are made for people who cannot pay that > registration amount - can there be scholarships provided?" It is a > very very very real concern that representation at conferences or > movements can eventually boil down to questions of who can really > afford to be present. Academic conferences anywhere - including the > kind of places that Wikipedia may talk about, all of them suffer from > the same concern - that academic conferences rarely provide a platform > for non-academic people to be present, even if the conference is more > about them than the academicians. > > Hoping to hear more about BOTH the 'responsible Kerala tourism' conferences. > > ~ Gitika > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 4:49 AM, deepak p wrote: > > i can hardly resist from replying to this email.. why do u guys luk upon > > evrything in a negative way.. i am in no way related to the icrt > > conference.. but believe that its a good initiative.. lets see what ur major > > complaints are: > > > > 1. calling it incredible india conference on... > > > > i dont think thats the name.. its the second edition of international conf > > on responsible tourism.. http://www.responsibletourism2008.org/ > > > > 2. holding it in a luxury hotel > > > > where else can u hold conferences with such a lot of international > > particiaption > > > > 3. registration fee is 5000.. > > > > this is a scholarly conference man.. and the conference holders are no > > charity workers.. u have to invite international standard speakers, get the > > arrangements done etc.. u need money.. i havent seen a scholarly conference > > of good stature that can afford to charge less than some 150 USD or so.. > > this is no charity function.. luk up what scholarly conferences are and > > understand that.. even conferences held in CUSAT have regn fees of 2k at > > least.. > > > > 4. kerala is not very responsible in its tourism initiatives.. > > > > okay, thats one probable reason as to why we have this conference at all, > > rite? > > > > > > if u dont understand what scholarly or academic conferences are.. check this > > out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_conference > > > > thanks > > deepak > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Anivar Aravind > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > *Convention on Irresponsible Tourism in Kerala* > > > ============================================== > > > *Date: 22nd March 2008, 9.30 am* > > > */Venue:/** Achuthamenon Hall, Near Public Library, Near Shenoy's Theatre* > > > *Eranakulam.* > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > For the past two decades, Department of Tourism and tourism industry in > > > Kerala have been promoting Kerala tourism with various jargons such as > > > "Eco-Tourism", "Sustainable Tourism", etc. There is no exception for > > > "Responsible Tourism". The present 'mantra' of Kerala Tourism is being > > > introduced in the state as a solution for 'everything'. > > > > > > > > > But a closer look at the recent developments will give an insight into > > > the present realities of Kerala Tourism. The "Responsible Tourism" > > > initiative of Kerala Tourism is not participatory as they claim and > > > keeping away local communities from the discussion. The current > > > discussions are not addressing the concerns of affected population which > > > needs urgent and immediate actions to stop the damages of tourism. At > > > the same time, the present discussions initiated by Kerala Tourism are > > > misleading the discussions and debates. They are aimed at marketing > > > Kerala Tourism abroad without changing or addressing the fundamental > > > issues here. > > > > > > > > > Kerala Tourism and International Centre for Responsible Tourism – India > > > (ICRT) in cooperation with 'Incredible India' are organizing "Incredible > > > India Second International Conference on Responsible Tourism in > > > Destinations". It is* *to be held from 21st – 24th* *March 2007 in > > > Kochi, Kerala. This conference is advertised and propagated in a big > > > manner both nationally and internationally.* * > > > > > > According to the organizers, the Conference will be a key global > > > initiative to help the tourism industry and all its stakeholders to > > > discuss and debate important developments in the field. The "efforts" of > > > Kerala Tourism in this direction will also be explored at the > > > conference. The conference will also "reflect on Kerala's experience of > > > working towards being a Responsible Tourism destination and to share it > > > internationally". > > > > > > > > > > > > But there is a very evident contradiction in the way they are organizing > > > the conference and its promises. The conference excludes very important > > > stakeholders from the discussions. It is an event for elites held at a > > > luxury hotel. The registration fee for the conference is a testimony for > > > this. Even the reduced fee is equivalent to Indian Rupees 5,000, which > > > is still beyond the reach of majority of local 'stakeholders'. > > > > > > > > > > > > The programme schedule of the conference advertised "Mararikulam as an > > > emerging beach destination". But the present reality in this area shows > > > that the conference organizers underestimate the socio-cultural and > > > economic impact of tourism on local communities. While they say > > > "Mararikulam is about one local entrepreneur kick starting a > > > destination. It is also about the emerging opportunities for the local > > > community", the experience of the local community is quite different. > > > Tourism in this area has caused a real estate boom and the local > > > entrepreneur mentioned has set a trend which resulted in market induced > > > displacement of fisher folk from the area. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no paradigm shift in the way Kerala is developing its tourism > > > sector. The current discussions are just a hype to change the fading > > > images of Kerala tourism and portray it as a responsible destination in > > > the international market. > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither the conference nor the "Responsible Tourism" initiative in the > > > state addresses any of the serious problems of the so called "Kerala > > > Model Tourism Development" in its agenda. At the same time, this ill > > > affected model demonstrates how unregulated and weak policies have > > > facilitated unsustainable tourism development in the state which > > > alienated the local population especially the marginalized from their > > > peaceful life and livelihood. Kerala Tourism is pretending that the > > > initiative is partipatory but at the same time they are strategically > > > excluding local communities from the conference and discussions to hide > > > the fundamental issues raised by them from the international community. > > > > > > > > > > > > This state of affairs convinced *Kerala Tourism Watch *to facilitate a > > > convention against the malpractices of Kerala tourism and against > > > proclaiming it as "Responsible Tourism. The Convention will take place > > > on 22^nd March 2008 at Achuthamenon Hall (Near Public Library), > > > Eranakulam where we will get to raise our voice and bring more attention > > > to the issues raised by the civil society of Kerala. > > > > > > > > > > > > The convention will be a broad platform of civil society organizations > > > and people's movements to discuss and critically analyze the present > > > tourism trends, tourism practices in the state. Participation is free, > > > of course. No participation fee! > > > > > > > > > > > > We request you to be part of the convention and our efforts to unveil > > > Kerala tourism's ill affected tourism practices and hidden agendas. > > > > > > Please send your suggestions, comments and feed back to: > > > tourismwatch.kerala at gmail.com > > > > > > In Solidarity > > > > > > Kerala Tourism Watch > > > > > > Robin, Keralaeeyam, Thrissur - Ph: + 91 9446576943 > > > > > > Geo Jose, Ph: + 91 9446000701 > > > > > > > > > * *About Kerala Tourism Watch** > > > > > > Kerala Tourism Watch is an informal coalition of civil society activists > > > and local communities to respond to the threats and challenges posed by > > > exploitative and undemocratic tourism practices in Kerala that upset > > > people's livelihood and cause cultural, environmental, economic and > > > social maladies that the Government is unable to control. > > > > > > Kerala is a state in Indian Union known for its remarkable > > > achievements in social sectors such as health and education based on > > > decades of social mobilization and political articulation of oppressed > > > castes and communities in the 19th and 20th centuries. A vibrant and > > > vigilant civil society has been the hall mark of the state which has > > > forced successive governments belonging to the centrist and left > > > persuasions to make progressive legislations, implement social security > > > programmes and democratize institutional structures and procedures > > > within the confines of the dependency relations of the productive > > > sectors to national and international labour and commodities markets. > > > > > > Right from the 1980s when Hotel Industry in the state, supported by > > > the government policies and bureaucratic intermediation, began an > > > aggressive campaign to market Kerala as a tourism destination, civil > > > society groups and social movements have raised concerns about its > > > harmful impacts on the social, economic, cultural and environmental > > > fronts. The history of civil society activism in Kerala in the last few > > > decades is marked also by the strong presence of oppositional voices > > > against the unjust and undemocratic nature of tourism practices in the > > > state. > > > > > > Local communities in Kerala who are seriously affected by the > > > exploitative tourism development in the state are now on the brink of a > > > social, environmental and cultural breakdown as their rights to > > > livelihood is threatened in an unprecedented manner by state policies > > > mandating reactionary legislations, forced and market mediated evictions > > > and increasing economic and cultural marginalization. Local > > > communities are loosing their land, jobs and indigenous cultures as a > > > result of the assaults of commercial tourism. > > > > > > As a collective, Kerala Tourism Watch believes that Kerala > > > Government's Tourism Department has been long ignoring the demands > > > raised by local communities and civil society organizations for a > > > democratized and equitable tourism development in the state. The > > > Department has been ridiculously vocal in its rhetorical assertions > > > about practicing ecotourism, responsible tourism, participatory tourism > > > etc., -the buzzwords of the day. The reality is however, is that the > > > fundamental practices of mass commercial tourism remains the same > > > irrespective of the catchy names appropriated by the department for > > > marketing Kerala as a global destination. Even the pathetic pastiche > > > 'God's Own Country' is nothing more than a public relations stunt. > > > Kerala tourism, obviously, has a long way to go in achieving basic goals > > > of transparency, accountability and responsiveness. > > > > > > At a time when Indigenous people, fishing communities, local > > > populations and civil society groups are engaged in relentless struggles > > > against irresponsible tourism development and policies of the > > > Governments and the tourism Department in the state, we understand that > > > documentation and campaign support are crucially important for the > > > success of the movements. Kerala Tourism Watch will hence, attempt to > > > update information on the campaigns, movements, policies, networks and > > > every possible aspect of societal impacts of tourism in the state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > "Green Youth Movement" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to greenyouth at googlegroups.com > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > greenyouth-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB > > > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Deepak P > > http://deepakp7.googlepages.com/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > we are realists, we dream the impossible - Che Guevera > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 12:49:59 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:49:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mochi-ki-Dukan - performance in support of Suraj & his family, Palette Art gallery on 28/03/03 Message-ID: <47e122a70803230019g106f74f4g77ba12dfd2ab08f8@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, please click the link for text and images. it is part of the coming internatiional festival of performance art organized by Khoj http://indersalim.livejournal.com -- From nutan_du at yahoo.co.in Sun Mar 23 20:24:02 2008 From: nutan_du at yahoo.co.in (nutan maurya) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:54:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Do Visit It..... Message-ID: <447549.50209.qm@web8703.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear friends, Due to some technical problems 'Alarm' has been deleated. Please do visit this new version of the same bolg with a new name but the same aim- http://newsvanguard.blogspot.com/ Thanks. --------------------------------- Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know how. From markcmarino at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 11:34:11 2008 From: markcmarino at gmail.com (Mark Marino) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:04:11 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Interactive Poem/Musical-Composition Game Receives LEF Grant Message-ID: <287213f30803212304q30d8dc29g6a44dc13f8882bc9@mail.gmail.com> Oni Buchanan has just received a $5000 grant from the LEF foudnation in support of her project, "Moths Drink the Tears," an innovative forthcoming work of electronic literature. "Moths Drink the Tears" will take the form of an interactive game-poem where player movements reveal corresponding lines of poetry and music. "Moths" loosely appropriates the exploration-based interactive fiction structures of 80's exploratory adventure games. The videogame itself is driven by a separate intricate narrative full of nested puzzles that the user needs to solve in order both to finish the game as well as to discover the full "Moths Drink the Tears" text hidden within the castle walls. Buchanan is collaborating with composer Lisa Mezzacappa ( http://www.lisamezzacappa.com) on a full-scale musical composition element. Mezzacappa and her bass and percussion ensemble "duo B" ( http://www.duobmusic.com) will create an interactive music composition, working through the entire "Moths Drink the Tears" poem text, tagging each line of the poem with an original musical counterpart. When the line of poetry is found, its corresponding musical phrase will play. At any time during the game, users will be able to "play" their poem as a realized musical score, listening to all of the collected musical phrases. Buchanan is uniquely positioned to orchestrate this collaboration. She is a celebrated pianist and award-winning poet, holding degrees from both the New England Conservatory of Music and the Iowa Writers' Workshop. A private foundation, the LEF supports contemporary work in the arts. (http://lef-foundation.org/page.php/id/160). The Electronic Literature Organization will be administering the grant on behalf of the artists. The ELO also plans to present the work at a future conference. For more information, contact Oni Buchanan (onibuchanan at gmail.com, http://www.onibuchanan.com/). Mark Marino Communications Electronic Literature Organization -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Mon Mar 24 01:45:08 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:15:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked Music Review Commission: "I Can't Go On, I'll Go On" by Haeyoung Kim Message-ID: <003701c88d22$aa19a130$fe4ce390$@org> March 24, 2008 Networked Music Review Commission: "I Can't Go On, I'll Go On" by Haeyoung Kim http://turbulence.org/works/cant_will/index.php Needs Flash Player and Speakers On "I Can't Go On, I'll Go On" is an interactive art piece inspired by Samuel Beckett's short novel, "Molloy." The work is presented in two parts: a blog for you to contribute your thoughts about Beckett's writing; and the multimedia generated by your entries. "In 2007 I began to learn to ride a bicycle. This for me was a choice not so much determined by reasons of pleasure but as a way of manifesting my need to literally move on with my life. Around the same time, I began to read Beckett's famous Three Novels, and was moved in particular by "Molloy." Bicycles are a very important metaphor in this book." Haeyoung Kim "I Can't Go On, I'll Go On" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., for Networked Music Review. It was made possible with the funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY A sound artist, composer, and audio engineer, Haeyoung Kim explores the territory of sounds in electronic music. Currently, under the name Bubblyfish, she has been creating 8-bit and experimental sound works. Haeyoung has collaborated with many respected sound and visual artists such as Malcolm McLaren, the founder of Sex Pistols, Hans Jochim Rodelius, and the Brussels based media art group, Lab[au]. Her work has been presented in art venues, clubs, festivals, and galleries internationally including The American Museum of the Moving Image, Pompidou Center, Kunsthalle Wien, MUTEK, LABoral, Lincoln Center Walter Reed Theater, and The New Museum. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 13:43:24 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:13:24 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] asma' report / freedom of religion or belief in india Message-ID: <5af37bb0803240113u198af613k69c02963b8ec7712@mail.gmail.com> Asma Jahangir, the Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief of the United Nations Human Rights Council, made the following statement on 20 March 2008 in Delhi at the end of her visit to India: http://www.hindu.com/nic/asmajahangir.htm -- bbc urdu font > http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/# From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Mar 24 14:55:28 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:25:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <32144e990803220248v4ecfbbdbo5edc0205f0c6a9d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990803190507h7b9f8da8ve9dc1a257067e2eb@mail.gmail.com> <"70 1863.44343.qm"@web45508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <32144e990803220248v4ecfbbdbo5edc0205f0c6a9d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, true, violence begets more of it, but the fact of the matter is all greed and seekers of power, know the use of violence as means to gather votes, on the sympathy wave generation, violence is the means to eliminate any possible able leader with "accidents" like in the case of a Scindia, Pilot, Sivayogi, then speaker, Pramod mahajan, irrespective of political parties, tall banyan tree does not allow any grass under its shadow to grow. ? Just see the way media and in its dirty dozen promoting Rahul, when more mature young blood is ready to be in the lead. ! Sycophants want a puppet but that puppet turns monster with power corrupting absolutely. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Hi, > > To get back to the topic at hand: > > 1. Is violence the only answer, and will it solve anything (other > thankilling > many more people) ? > > 2. Why is the central question of survival and re-institution > being ignored > with shrill insistence upon retribution? > > 3. If the only requirement is retribution (as seems to be the > constantdemand) > instead of more urgent requirements like rehabilitation, then > lets just > set up > a 'kill list' and get it over and done with - and in the same > processcommitting > the same crime as those we are pointing our fingers at. > > Any answers? Actual answers - and not jumping around specific > words and > sentences without referring to the central issues. > > Rgds, Partha > ............................................. > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 2:14 PM, wrote: > > > Hi, all. > > > > All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand > gandhi was > > as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India > which did not > > include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji > Subhash was > > popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian > national> Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High > Command " then chose > > Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. > > > > Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, > > reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus > Pakistan was > > born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE > NATION, WHICH > > SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND > MUSLIMS,> SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > > > THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER OR > > POSITION lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE > prime minister > > HIMSELF. His greed for position and favour and nepotism and > dynastical> fervour is seen in free India. > > Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the > Rajeevs and > > Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good > human, with > > good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, > selfish, never > > cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. > > Regards.. > > From: we wi > > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > To: Partha Dasgupta , Pawan Durani < > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Partha, > > > > > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > > > note the difference in everything. > > > > > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or > otherwise. I > > > just follow > > > >>>what I believe is right. > > > > > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > > > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > > > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > > > to say this. > > > > > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > > > breed hate and > > > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > > > > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > > > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > > > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > > > believing anything. > > > > > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > > > or profess to > > > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > > > list except my cousin > > > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > > > what of me. > > > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > > > engaging in a > > > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > > > > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Pawan, > > > > > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > > > followwhat I believe is right. > > > > > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > > > hate and > > > more violence and > > > can not be a solution. > > > > > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > > > that is > > > 'AsitRed'). However, > > > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a > block> > without > > > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > > > > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > > > profess to > > > here is not > > > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > > > cousinwho > > > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what > of me. > > > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > > > in a > > > debate when > > > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is > - > > > are you > > > proposing that > > > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > > > violence - > > > because that is > > > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > > > pointof the debate. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ..................... > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > > > you to > > > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > > > the bunch, > > > > maintain double standards. > > > > > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth > against> > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be > ready at the > > > start up line > > > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that > the only > > > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle > - > > > just more > > > > > death and hate. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ................... > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > > > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > > > Yasine> > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > > > Yasin Malik a > > > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > > > understand is your > > > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > > > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > > > violence. One of the > > > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > > > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > > > considered it > > > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > > > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > > > something all > > > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > > > If it > > > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then > I would > > > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > > > organiser of > > > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > > > his feet > > > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > > > of mind > > > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > > > where he > > > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic > 114 day > > > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > header.> > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > header.> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > > Yahoo! Search. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 16:01:59 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:01:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Diversion of tsunami funds alleged Message-ID: <3457ce860803240331r53c17871p8a38dab3dde288c5@mail.gmail.com> Diversion of tsunami funds alleged Special Correspondent http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/21/stories/2008032157260400.htm Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation flays 'Ente Theeram' project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Says majority of the projects are at places hardly affected by the tsunami Says artificial reef at Kovalam will affect the livelihood of 500 people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) has flayed the State government for utilising funds from the Tsunami Rehabilitation Programme to promote tourism development. Referring to Tourism Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan's statement made during the inauguration of the 'Ente Theeram' project at Veli here on Monday, KSMTF president T. Peter said the government was guilty of diverting funds meant for the upliftment of coastal communities. Rationale questioned "How can the construction of walkways and improvement of tourism infrastructure be termed as coastal protection? How will it benefit the coastal communities affected by tsunami? This is just old wine in new bottle. The Minister had said earlier that tsunami funds would be used for the beautification of beaches as part of a package of 22 coastal projects. After protests from the coastal communities, now they are doing the same thing in the name of coastal protection," he said. "The majority of the projects are in locations that were hardly affected by the tsunami. According to the guidelines issued by the Central Planning Commission, TRP funds can be used only for rehabilitation of damaged sites. "The Tourism department should come out with the extent of damage caused by the tsunami in the 20 selected project sites. The details of the projects need to be brought before the public and debated," Mr. Peter said. He reiterated the stand that the proposed construction of a 500-metre long artificial reef at Kovalam for water skiing, surfing and swimming would affect the livelihood of the fishing community in the area. "Community based shore–seine fishing in the area will be curtailed and at least 500 people will lose their livelihood options. The fish breeding ground will be used for 'sport fishing' by tourists and will be of little use to the local fish workers. They are still planning to go ahead with the project." Study sought Mr. Peter called for a detailed study to assess the impact of the artificial reef on the neighbouring villages such as Vizhinjam and Poonthura. Diverting Rs.84.11 crore earmarked for rehabilitation of tsunami-affected people will detract from the government's bid to promote Kerala as a Responsible Tourism destination, he added. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Mar 24 17:41:22 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:11:22 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] China's new intelligentsia Message-ID: <2D38CD06-59BB-4D51-A6D7-1B047B9EC384@sarai.net> http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10078 March 2008 | 144 » Cover story » China's new intelligentsia Despite the global interest in the rise of China, no one is paying much attention to its ideas and who produces them. Yet China has a surprisingly lively intellectual class whose ideas may prove a serious challenge to western liberal hegemony Mark Leonard Mark Leonard is the executive director of the European Council on Foreign Relations. His book What Does China Think? has just been published by 4th Estate Discuss this article at First Drafts, Prospect's blog I will never forget my first visit, in 2003, to the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS) in Beijing. I was welcomed by Wang Luolin, the academy's vice-president, whose grandfather had translated Marx's Das Kapital into Chinese, and Huang Ping, a former Red Guard. Sitting in oversized armchairs, we sipped ceremonial tea and introduced ourselves. Wang Luolin nodded politely and smiled, then told me that his academy had 50 research centres covering 260 disciplines with 4,000 full-time researchers. As he said this, I could feel myself shrink into the seams of my vast chair: Britain's entire think tank community is numbered in the hundreds, Europe's in the low thousands; even the think-tank heaven of the US cannot have more than 10,000. But here in China, a single institution—and there are another dozen or so think tanks in Beijing alone—had 4,000 researchers. Admittedly, the people at CASS think that many of the researchers are not up to scratch, but the raw figures were enough. At the beginning of that trip, I had hoped to get a quick introduction to China, learn the basics and go home. I had imagined that China's intellectual life consisted of a few unbending ideologues in the back rooms of the Communist party or the country's top universities. Instead, I stumbled on a hidden world of intellectuals, think-tankers and activists, all engaged in intense debate about the future of their country. I soon realised that it would take more than a few visits to Beijing and Shanghai to grasp the scale and ambition of China's internal debates. Even on that first trip my mind was made up—I wanted to devote the next few years of my life to understanding the living history that was unfolding before me. Over a three-year period, I have spoken with dozens of Chinese thinkers, watching their views develop in line with the breathtaking changes in their country. Some were party members; others were outside the party and suffering from a more awkward relationship with the authorities. Yet to some degree, they are all insiders. They have chosen to live and work in mainland China, and thus to cope with the often capricious demands of the one-party state. We are used to China's growing influence on the world economy—but could it also reshape our ideas about politics and power? This story of China's intellectual awakening is less well documented. We closely follow the twists and turns in America's intellectual life, but how many of us can name a contemporary Chinese writer or thinker? Inside China—in party forums, but also in universities, in semi-independent think tanks, in journals and on the internet—debate rages about the direction of the country: "new left" economists argue with the "new right" about inequality; political theorists argue about the relative importance of elections and the rule of law; and in the foreign policy realm, China's neocons argue with liberal internationalists about grand strategy. Chinese thinkers are trying to reconcile competing goals, exploring how they can enjoy the benefits of global markets while protecting China from the creative destruction they could unleash in its political and economic system. Some others are trying to challenge the flat world of US globalisation with a "walled world" Chinese version. Paradoxically, the power of the Chinese intellectual is amplified by China's repressive political system, where there are no opposition parties, no independent trade unions, no public disagreements between politicians and a media that exists to underpin social control rather than promote political accountability. Intellectual debate in this world can become a surrogate for politics—if only because it is more personal, aggressive and emotive than anything that formal politics can muster. While it is true there is no free discussion about ending the Communist party's rule, independence for Tibet or the events of Tiananmen Square, there is a relatively open debate in leading newspapers and academic journals about China's economic model, how to clean up corruption or deal with foreign policy issues like Japan or North Korea. Although the internet is heavily policed, debate is freer here than in the printed word (although one of the most free- thinking bloggers, Hu Jia, was recently arrested). And behind closed doors, academics and thinkers will often talk freely about even the most sensitive topics, such as political reform. The Chinese like to argue about whether it is the intellectuals that influence decision- makers, or whether groups of decision-makers use pet intellectuals as informal mouthpieces to advance their own views. Either way, these debates have become part of the political process, and are used to put ideas in play and expand the options available to Chinese decision-makers. Intellectuals are, for example, regularly asked to brief the politburo in "study sessions"; they prepare reports that feed into the party's five-year plans; and they advise on the government's white papers. So is the Chinese intelligentsia becoming increasingly open and western? Many of the concepts it argues over—including, of course, communism itself—are western imports. And a more independent-minded, western style of discourse may be emerging as a result of the 1m students who have studied outside China—many in the west—since 1978; fewer than half have returned, but that number is rising. However, one should not forget that the formation of an "intellectual" in China remains very different from in the west. Education is still focused on practical contributions to national life, and despite a big expansion of higher education (around 20 per cent of 18-30 year olds now enrol at university), teaching methods rely heavily on rote learning. Moreover, all of these people will be closely monitored for political dissent, with "political education" classes still compulsory. Zhang Weiying has a thing about Cuban cigars. When I went to see him in his office in Beijing University, I saw half a dozen boxes of Cohiba piled high on his desk. The cigar boxes—worth several times a Chinese peasant's annual income—are fragments of western freedom (albeit products of a communist nation), symbols of the dynamism he hopes will gradually eclipse and replace the last vestiges of Maoism. Like other economic liberals—or members of the "new right" as their opponents call them—he thinks China will not be free until the public sector is dismantled and the state has shrivelled into a residual body designed mainly to protect property rights. The new right was at the heart of China's economic reforms in the 1980s and 1990s. Zhang Weiying has a favourite allegory to explain these reforms. He tells a story about a village that relied on horses to conduct its chores. Over time, the village elders realised that the neighbouring village, which relied on zebras, was doing better. So after years of hailing the virtues of the horse, they decided to embrace the zebra. The only obstacle was converting the villagers who had been brainwashed over decades into worshipping the horse. The elders developed an ingenious plan. Every night, while the villagers slept, they painted black stripes on the white horses. When the villagers awoke the leaders reassured them that the animals were not really zebras, just the same old horses adorned with a few harmless stripes. After a long interval the village leaders began to replace the painted horses with real zebras. These prodigious animals transformed the village's fortunes, increasing productivity and creating wealth all around. Only many years later—long after all the horses had been replaced with zebras and the village had benefited from many years of prosperity—did the elders summon the citizenry to proclaim that their community was a village of zebras, and that zebras were good and horses bad. Zhang Weiying's story is one way of understanding his theory of "dual- track pricing," first put forward in 1984. He argued that "dual-track pricing" would allow the government to move from an economy where prices were set by officials to one where they were set by the market, without having to publicly abandon its commitment to socialism or run into the opposition of all those with a vested interest in central planning. Under this approach, some goods and services continued to be sold at state-controlled prices while others were sold at market prices. Over time, the proportion of goods sold at market prices was steadily increased until by the early 1990s, almost all products were sold at market prices. The "dual-track" approach embodies the combination of pragmatism and incrementalism that has allowed China's reformers to work around obstacles rather than confront them. The most famous village of zebras was Shenzhen. At the end of the 1970s, Shenzhen was an unremarkable fishing village, providing a meagre living for its few thousand inhabitants. But over the next three decades, it became an emblem of the Chinese capitalism that Zhang Weiying and his colleagues were building. Because of its proximity to Hong Kong, Deng Xiaoping chose Shenzhen in 1979 as the first "special economic zone," offering its leaders tax breaks, freedom from regulation and a licence to pioneer new market ideas. The architects of reform in Shenzhen wanted to build high-tech plants that could mass-produce value-added goods for sale in the west. Such experimental zones were financed by drawing on the country's huge savings and the revenues from exports. The coastal regions sucked in a vast number of workers from the countryside, which held down urban wages. And the whole system was laissez-faire—allowing wealth to trickle down from the rich to the poor organically rather than consciously redistributing it. Deng Xiaoping pointedly declared that "some must get rich first," arguing that the different regions should "eat in separate kitchens" rather than putting their resources into a "common pot." As a result, the reformers of the eastern provinces were allowed to cut free from the impoverished inland areas and steam ahead. But life today is getting tougher for the economists behind this system, like Zhang Weiying. After 30 years of having the best of the argument with ideas imported from the west, China has turned against the new right. Opinion polls show that they are the least popular group in China. Public disquiet is growing over the costs of reform, with protests by laid-off workers and concern over illegal demolitions and unpaid wages. And the ideas of the market are being challenged by a new left, which advocates a gentler form of capitalism. A battle of ideas pits the state against market; coasts against inland provinces; towns against countryside; rich against poor. Wang Hui is one of the leaders of the new left, a loose grouping of intellectuals who are increasingly capturing the public mood and setting the tone for political debate through their articles in journals such as Dushu. Wang Hui was a student of literature rather than politics, but he was politicised through his role in the student demonstrations of 1989 that congregated on Tiananmen Square. Like most young intellectuals at the time, he was a strong believer in the potential of the market. But after the Tiananmen massacre, Wang Hui took off to the mountains and spent two years in hiding, getting to know peasants and workers. His experiences there made him doubt the justice of unregulated free markets, and convinced him that the state must play a role in preventing inequality. Wang Hui's ideas were developed further during his exile in the US in the 1990s, but like many other new left thinkers he has returned to mainland China—in his case to teach at the prestigious Qinghua University. I met him last year in "Thinker's Café" in Beijing, a bright and airy retreat with comfy sofas and fresh espressos. He looks like an archetypal public intellectual: cropped hair, a brown jacket and black polo-neck sweater. But Wang Hui does not live in an ivory tower. He writes reports exposing local corruption and helps workers organise themselves against illegal privatisations. His grouping is "new" because, unlike the "old left," it supports market reforms. It is left because, unlike the "new right," it worries about inequality: "China is caught between the two extremes of misguided socialism and crony capitalism, and suffering from the worst elements of both… I am in favour of orienting the country toward market reforms, but China's development must be more balanced. We must not give total priority to GDP growth to the exclusion of workers' rights and the environment." The new left's philosophy is a product of China's relative affluence. Now that the market is driving economic growth, they ask what should be done with the wealth. Should it continue accumulating in the hands of an elite, or can China foster a model of development that benefits all citizens? They want to develop a Chinese variant of social democracy. As Wang Hui says: "We cannot count on a state on the German or Nordic model. We have such a large country that the state would have to be vast to provide that kind of welfare. That is why we need institutional innovation. Wang Shaoguang [a political economist] is talking about low-price healthcare. Cui Zhiyuan [a political theorist] is talking about reforming property rights to give workers a say over the companies where they work. Hu Angang [an economist] is talking about green development." The balance of power in Beijing is subtly shifting towards the left. At the end of 2005, Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao published the "11th five- year plan," their blueprint for a "harmonious society." For the first time since the reform era began in 1978, economic growth was not described as the overriding goal for the Chinese state. They talked instead about introducing a welfare state with promises of a 20 per cent year-on-year increase in the funds available for pensions, unemployment benefit, health insurance and maternity leave. For rural China, they promised an end to arbitrary taxes and improved health and education. They also pledged to reduce energy consumption by 20 per cent. The 11th five-year plan is a template for a new Chinese model. From the new right, it keeps the idea of permanent experimentation—a gradualist reform process rather than shock therapy. And it accepts that the market will drive economic growth. From the new left, it draws a concern about inequality and the environment and a quest for new institutions that can marry co-operation with competition. In February 2007, Hu Jintao proudly announced the creation of a new special economic zone complete with the usual combination of export subsidies, tax breaks and investments in roads, railways and shipping. However, this special economic zone was in the heart of Africa—in the copper-mining belt of Zambia. China is transplanting its growth model into the African continent by building a series of industrial hubs linked by rail, road and shipping lanes to the rest of the world. Zambia will be home to China's "metals hub," providing the People's Republic with copper, cobalt, diamonds, tin and uranium. The second zone will be in Mauritius, providing China with a "trading hub" that will give 40 Chinese businesses preferential access to the 20-member state common market of east and southern Africa stretching from Libya to Zimbabwe, as well as access to the Indian ocean and south Asian markets. The third zone—a "shipping hub"—will probably be in the Tanzanian capital, Dar es Salaam. Nigeria, Liberia and the Cape Verde islands are competing for two other slots. In the same way that eastern Europe was changed by a competition to join the EU, we could see Africa transformed by the competition to attract Chinese investment. As it creates these zones, Beijing is embarking on a building spree, criss-crossing the African continent with new roads and railways— investing far more than the old colonial powers ever did. Moreover, China's presence is changing the rules of economic development. The IMF and the World Bank used to drive the fear of God into government officials and elected leaders, but today they struggle to be listened to even by the poorest countries of Africa. The IMF spent years negotiating a transparency agreement with the Angolan government only to be told hours before the deal was due to be signed, in March 2004, that the authorities in Luanda were no longer interested in the money: they had secured a $2bn soft loan from China. This tale has been repeated across the continent—from Chad to Nigeria, Sudan to Algeria, Ethiopia and Uganda to Zimbabwe. But the spread of the Chinese model goes far beyond the regions that have been targeted by Chinese investors. Research teams from middle- income and poor countries from Iran to Egypt, Angola to Zambia, Kazakhstan to Russia, India to Vietnam and Brazil to Venezuela have been crawling around the Chinese cities and countryside in search of lessons from Beijing's experience. Intellectuals such as Zhang Weiying and Hu Angang have been asked to provide training for them. Scores of countries are copying Beijing's state-driven development using public money and foreign investment to build capital-intensive industries. A rash of copycat special economic zones have been set up all over the world—the World Bank estimates that over 3,000 projects are taking place in 120 countries. Globalisation was supposed to mean the worldwide triumph of the market economy, but China is showing that state capitalism is one of its biggest beneficiaries. As free market ideas have spread across the world, liberal democracy has often travelled in its wake. But for the authorities in Beijing there is nothing inexorable about liberal democracy. One of the most surprising features of Chinese intellectual life is the way that "democracy" intellectuals who demanded elections in the 1980s and 1990s have changed their positions on political reform. Yu Keping is like the Zhang Weiying of political reform. He is a rising star and an informal adviser to President Hu Jintao. He runs an institute that is part university, part think tank, part management consultancy for government reform. When he talks about the country's political future, he often draws a direct analogy with the economic realm. When I last met him in Beijing, he told me that overnight political reform would be as damaging to China as economic "shock therapy." Instead, he has promoted the idea of democracy gradually working its way up from successful grassroots experiments. He hopes that by promoting democracy first within the Communist party, it will then spread to the rest of society. Just as the coastal regions were allowed to "get rich first," Yu Keping thinks that party members should "get democracy first" by having internal party elections. Where the coastal regions benefited from natural economic advantages such as proximity to Hong Kong, the Cantonese language and transport links, Yu Keping sees advantages for party members—such as their high levels of education and articulacy—which make them into a natural democratic vanguard. What is more, he can point to examples of this happening. At his suggestion, in 2006 I visited a county in Sichuan province called Pinchang that has allowed party members to vote for the bosses of township parties. In the long run, democracy could be extended to the upper echelons of the party, including competitive elections for the most senior posts. The logical conclusion of his ideas on inner party democracy would be for the Communist party to split into different factions that competed on ideological slates for support. It is possible to imagine informal new left and new right groupings one day even becoming formal parties within the party. If the Communist party were a country, its 70m members would make it bigger than Britain. And yet it is hard to imagine the remote, impoverished county of Pinchang becoming a model for the gleaming metropolises of Shanghai, Beijing or Shenzhen. So far, none of the other 2,860 counties of China has followed its lead. Many intellectuals in China are starting to question the utility of elections. Pan Wei, a rising star at Beijing University, castigated me at our first meeting for paying too much attention to the experiments in grassroots democracy. "The Sichuan experiment will go nowhere," he said. "The local leaders have their personal political goal: they want to make their names known. But the experiment has not succeeded. In fact, Sichuan is the place with the highest number of mass protests. Very few other places want to emulate it." Chinese thinkers argue that all developed democracies are facing a political crisis: turnout in elections is falling, faith in political leaders has declined, parties are losing members and populism is on the rise. They study the ways that western leaders are going over the heads of political parties and pioneering new techniques to reach the people such as referendums, opinion surveys or "citizens' juries." The west still has multi-party elections as a central part of the political process, but has supplemented them with new types of deliberation. China, according to the new political thinkers, will do things the other way around: using elections in the margins but making public consultations, expert meetings and surveys a central part of decision-making. This idea was described pithily by Fang Ning, a political scientist at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. He compared democracy in the west to a fixed-menu restaurant where customers can select the identityof their chef, but have no say in what dishes he chooses to cook for them. Chinese democracy, on the other hand, always involves the same chef—the Communist party—but the policy dishes which are served up can be chosen "à la carte." Chongqing is a municipality of 30m that few people in the west have heard of. It nestles in the hills at the confluence of the Yangtze and Jialin Jiang rivers and it is trying to become a living laboratory for the ideas of intellectuals like Pan Wei and Fang Ning. The city's government has made all significant rulings subject to public hearings—in person, on television and on the internet. The authorities are proudest of the hearings on ticket prices for the light railway, which saw fares reduced from 15 to just 2 yuan (about 14p). This experiment is being emulated in other cities around China. But an even more interesting experiment was carried out in the small township of Zeguo in Wenling City—it used a novel technique of "deliberative polling" to decide on major spending decisions. The brainchild of a Stanford political scientist called James Fishkin, it harks back to an Athenian ideal of democracy (see "The thinking voter," Prospect May 2004). It involves randomly selecting a sample of the population and involving them in a consultation process with experts, before asking them to vote on issues. Zeguo used this technique to decide how to spend its 40m yuan (£2.87m) public works budget. So far the experiment has been a one-off but Fishkin and the Chinese political scientist He Baogang believe that "deliberative democracy" could be a template for political reform. The authorities certainly seem willing to experiment with all kinds of political innovations. In Zeguo, they have even introduced a form of government by focus group. But the main criterion guiding political reform seems to be that it must not threaten the Communist party's monopoly on power. Can a more responsive form of authoritarianism evolve into a legitimate and stable form of government? In the long term, China's one-party state may well collapse. However, in the medium term, the regime seems to be developing increasingly sophisticated techniques to prolong its survival and pre-empt discontent. China has already changed the terms of the debate about globalisation by proving that authoritarian regimes can deliver economic growth. In the future, its model of deliberative dictatorship could prove that one-party states can deliver a degree of popular legitimacy as well. And if China's experiments with public consultation work, dictatorships around the world will take heart from a model that allows one-party states to survive in an era of globalisation and mass communications. China scholars in the west argue over whether the country is actively promoting autocracy, or whether it is just single-mindedly pursuing its national interest. Either way, China has emerged as the biggest global champion of authoritarianism. The pressure group Human Rights Watch complains that "China's growing foreign aid programme creates new options for dictators who were previously dependent on those who insisted on human rights progress." China's foray into international politics should not, however, be reduced to its support for African dictators. It is trying to redefine the meaning of power on the world stage. Indeed, measuring "CNP"—comprehensive national power—has become a national hobby-horse. Each of the major foreign policy think tanks has devised its own index to give a numerical value to every nation's power—economic, political, military and cultural. And in this era of globalisation and universal norms, the most striking thing about Chinese strategists is their unashamed focus on "national" power. The idea of recapturing sovereignty from global economic forces, companies and even individuals is central to the Chinese worldview. Yang Yi is a military man, a rear admiral in the navy and the head of China's leading military think tank. He is one of the tough guys of the Chinese foreign policy establishment, but his ideas on power go far beyond assessments of the latest weapons systems. He argues that the US has created a "strategic siege" around China by assuming the "moral height" in international relations. Every time the People's Republic tries to assert itself in diplomatic terms, to modernise its military or to open relationships with other countries, the US presents it as a threat. And the rest of the world, Yang Yi complains, all too often takes its lead from the hyperpower: "The US has the final say on the making and revising of the international rules of the game. They have dominated international discourse… the US says, 'Only we can do this; you can't do this.'" One of the buzzwords in Chinese foreign policy circles is ruan quanli— the Chinese term for "soft power." This idea was invented by the American political scientist Joseph Nye in 1990, but it is being promoted with far more zeal in Beijing than in Washington DC. In April 2006, a conference was organised in Beijing to launch the "China dream"—China's answer to the American dream. It was an attempt to associate the People's Republic with three powerful ideas: economic development, political sovereignty and international law. Whereas American diplomats talk about regime change, their Chinese counterparts talk about respect for sovereignty and the diversity of civilisations. Whereas US foreign policy uses sanctions and isolation to back up its political objectives, the Chinese offer aid and trade with no strings. Whereas America imposes its preferences on reluctant allies, China makes a virtue of at least appearing to listen to other countries. But while all Chinese thinkers want to strengthen national power, they disagree on their country's long-term goals. On the one hand, liberal internationalists like Zheng Bijian like to talk about China's "peaceful rise" and how it has rejoined the world; adapting to global norms and learning to make a positive contribution to global order. In recent years, Beijing has been working through the six-party talks to solve the North Korean nuclear problem; working with the EU, Russia and the US on Iran; adopting a conciliatory position on climate change at an international conference in Montreal in 2005; and sending 4,000 peacekeepers to take part in UN missions. Even on issues where China is at odds with the west—such as humanitarian intervention—the Chinese position is becoming more nuanced. When the west intervened over Kosovo, China opposed it on the grounds that it contravened the "principle of non-intervention." On Iraq, it abstained. And on Darfur, in 2006 it finally voted for a UN mandate for peacekeepers—although Beijing is still under fire for its close ties to the Sudanese government. On the other hand, China's "neocons"—or perhaps they should be called "neo-comms"—like Yang Yi and his colleague Yan Xuetong openly argue that they are using modern thinking to help China realise ancient dreams. Their long-term goal is to see China return to great-power status. Like many Chinese scholars, Yan Xuetong has been studying ancient thought. "Recently I read all these books by ancient Chinese scholars and discovered that these guys are smart—their ideas are much more relevant than most modern international relations theory," he said. The thing that interested him the most was the distinction that ancient Chinese scholars made between two kinds of order: the "Wang" (which literally means "king") and the "Ba" ("overlord"). The "Wang" system was centred on a dominant superpower, but its primacy was based on benign government rather than coercion or territorial expansion. The "Ba" system, on the other hand, was a classic hegemonic system, where the most powerful nation imposed order on its periphery. Yan explains how in ancient times the Chinese operated both systems: "Within Chinese Asia we had a 'Wang' system. Outside, when dealing with 'barbarians,' we had a hegemonic system. That is just like the US today, which adopts a 'Wang' system inside the western club, where it doesn't use military force or employ double standards. On a global scale, however, the US is hegemonic, using military power and employing double standards." According to Yan Xuetong, China will have two options as it becomes more powerful. "It could become part of the western 'Wang' system. But this will mean changing its political system to become a democracy. The other option is for China to build its own system." The tension between the liberal internationalists and the neo-comms is a modern variant of the Mao-era split between bourgeois and revolutionary foreign policy. For the next few years, China will be decidedly bourgeois. It has decided—with some reservations—to join the global economy and its institutions. Its goal is to strengthen them in order to pin down the US and secure a peaceful environment for China's development. But in the long term, some Chinese hope to build a global order in China's image. The idea is to avoid confrontation while changing the facts on the ground. Just as they are doing in domestic policy, they hope to build pockets of an alternative reality—as in Africa—where it is Chinese values and norms that increasingly determine the course of events rather than western ones. The western creations of the EU and Nato—defined by the pooling rather than the protecting of sovereignty—may one day find their matches in the embryonic East Asian Community and the Shanghai Co- operation Organisation. Through these organisations, China is reassuring its neighbours of its peaceful intent and creating a new community of interest that excludes the US. The former US official Susan Shirk draws a parallel between China's multilateral diplomacy and her own country's after the second world war: "By binding itself to international rules and regimes, the US successfully established a hegemonic order." The UN is also becoming an amplifier of the Chinese worldview. Unlike Russia, which comports itself with a swagger—enjoying its ability to overtly frustrate US and EU plans—China tends to opt for a conciliatory posture. In the run-up to the Iraq war, although China opposed military action, it allowed France, Germany and Russia to lead the opposition to it. In 2005 when there was a debate about enlarging the UN security council, China encouraged African countries to demand their own seat, which effectively killed off Japan's bid for a permanent seat. Equally, Beijing has been willing to allow the Organisation of Islamic States to take the lead in weakening the new UN human rights council. This diplomacy has been effective— contributing to a big fall in US influence: in 1995 the US won 50.6 per cent of the votes in the UN general assembly; by 2006, the figure had fallen to just 23.6 per cent. On human rights, the results are even more dramatic: China's win-rate has rocketed from 43 per cent to 82 per cent, while the US's has tumbled from 57 per cent to 22 per cent. "It's a truism that the security council can function only insofar as the US lets it," says James Traub, UN correspondent of the the New York Times. “The adage may soon be applied to China as well.” The debate between Chinese intellectuals will continue to swirl within think tanks, journals and universities and—on more sensitive topics—on the internet. Chinese thinkers will continue to act as intellectual magpies, adapting western ideas to suit their purposes and plundering selectively from China’s own history. As China’s global footprint grows, we may find that we become as familiar with the ideas of Zhang Weiying and Wang Hui, Yu Keping and Pan Wei, Yan Xuetong and Zheng Bijan as we were with those of American thinkers in previous decades; from Reaganite economists in the 1980s to the neoconservative strategists of the 9/11 era. China is not an intellectually open society. But the emergence of freer political debate, the throng of returning students from the west and huge international events like the Olympics are making it more so. And it is so big, so pragmatic and so desperate to succeed that its leaders are constantly experimenting with new ways of doing things. They used special economic zones to test out a market philosophy. Now they are testing a thousand other ideas—from deliberative democracy to regional alliances. From this laboratory of social experiments, a new world-view is emerging that may in time crystallise into a recognisable Chinese model—an alternative, non- western path for the rest of the world to follow. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 18:24:27 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Aqeedat ka Rang: events at IGNCA, Delhi Message-ID: <313139.8716.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts Cordially invites you to an eight day event Aqeedat ke Rang Performance Traditions among the Indian Muslims Seminar 1 - 4 April 2008; 10.00 am – 5.00 pm Venue : IGNCA, Janapada Sampada Hall, 3rd floor, No. 5 Building, Dr. R.P. Road, New Delhi – 100 001 (Entry from Man Singh Road) Public Lectures 1 - 4 April 2008 at 6.00 pm Venue : IGNCA, Janapada Sampada Hall, 3rd floor, No. 5 Building, Dr. R.P. Road, New Delhi – 100 001 (Entry from Man Singh Road) 1st April 2008: Gopi Chand Narang 2nd April 2008: Saeed Naqvi 3rd April 2008: Syeda Saiyidain Hameed 4th April 2008: Asghar Ali Engineer Performances 1 - 4 April 2008 Venue : IGNCA, Open Air Theatre, No. 3, Dr. R.P. Road, New Delhi – 110 001 1st April 2008 7.00 pm : Zikr Faqeera (Assam) 7.40 pm : Qawwali (Warasi Brothers, Rampur) 2nd April 2008 7.00 pm : Bhand Pather (Kashmir) 7.30 pm : Nassari (Lucknow) 8.00 pm : Rabia Basari; Play (Seema Aggarwal, Delhi) 3rd April 2008 7.00 pm : Milaad (Delhi) 7.30 pm : Classical Sufi Songs (Madan Gopal, Delhi) 8.00 pm : Chahar Bayt (Tonk) 4th April 2008 7.00 pm : Naat Khani & Darood Khani (Kashmir) 7.30 pm : Agra Bazaar; Play (Habib Tanvir) Exhibition Hind Islami Tahzeeb ke Rang – Aqeedat ke Sang 1 - 8 April 2008 Venue : IGNCA, Mati Ghar, C.V. Mess Building, Janpath, New Delhi – 110 001 10.00 am – 05.00 pm http://ignca.nic.in/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 18:36:46 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:06:46 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Learn windows networking. Message-ID: <015101c88daf$eb271760$7daf000a@satalways> Hello there! Start learning about Windows Networking. Networking about windows XP, Windows 98 and Windows 2000 including IP address and their classes explained. A good site to learning Windows Networking. Periodically they are adding new articles and tutorials. Windows Networking What is IP? Setting up your network Best Regards From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 21:36:35 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] I didn't send that mail In-Reply-To: <015101c88daf$eb271760$7daf000a@satalways> Message-ID: <914453.18121.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I never sent this mail - won't have anything to do with Windows networking...! Seems like a spam --- Yousuf wrote: > Hello there! > > Start learning about Windows Networking. > Networking about windows XP, Windows 98 and Windows > 2000 including IP address and their classes > explained. A good site to learning Windows > Networking. Periodically they are adding new > articles and tutorials. > Windows Networking > > What is IP? > Setting up your network > > Best Regards > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From machleetank at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 22:22:47 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen P) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:52:47 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] BLANK NOISE THIS PLACE In-Reply-To: <277f58b70803240918t24b463adj31903fac7e4abd02@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70803240736g710196f9nd56da9fba4e9f042@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70803240918t24b463adj31903fac7e4abd02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello On behalf of Blank Noise , I invite for you to participate in our new project 'Blank Noise This Place' Blank Noise is built and based on people's testimonials. Taking this belief forward we invite you to engage with our new project- Blank Noise This Place. The site is a witness and your photograph is your testimonial. * * Blank Noise This Place will archive photographs that you send of public places and locations you have been sexually assaulted in any degree that you consider sexual harassment/ violence. To participate we ask you to revisit your site of violation with a camera. * (any camera will do- * *quality is not important as much as your act of revisiting and documenting). * Please email it to us at blurtblanknoise at gmail.com with an account of what occurred- what time-which country.city it took place in Please add in details such as your age and name Your contributions will be put on a world wide map that will specifically identify each participant's site of sexual assault. www.flickr.com/photos/blanknoisethisplace/map/ If you do not wish to have your name up- do tell us. You are further requested to get others involved. Introduce this idea to friends peers and all the women you know! In true spirit, cameras could be borrowed, shared, collective trips could be made to each person's site of violation. Organisations and groups are also invited to participate. We hope to hear from you. Let's Blank Noise This Place! For any queries and suggestions do email us at blurtblanknoise at gmail.com Blank Noise Team -- BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org mobile: 0091 98868 40612 Add a Blank Noise button to your blog ! Copy paste the code below- Blank Noise -- BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org mobile: 0091 98868 40612 Add a Blank Noise button to your blog ! Copy paste the code below- Blank Noise -- ph: + 91 98868 40612 From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 22:44:07 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:44:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My travel piece on Delhi In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660803240737q49f0de5fo31fc1f5033f0ee09@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660803240737q49f0de5fo31fc1f5033f0ee09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70803241014v4d2cb563m10bdf326dadd5c8f@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Raza Rumi Please see my piece on Delhi travels http://www.razarumi.com/2008/03/23/my-travels-to-delhi/ regards Raza - -- www.razarumi.com www.pakteahouse.wordpress.com www.lahorenama.wordpress.com www.taraqee.wordpress.com http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html "..society is now one polished horde, formed of two mighty tribes, the bores and bored." - -- From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 23:34:48 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:34:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690803190611i3706caf1q5fbc75820a89f655@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803241104i77aaacbft2056ca0773615c9b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/08, S. Jabbar wrote:>>>>>>>>And two, ideas. The end to slavery, the sun setting on the British Empire,the fall of the Berlin Wall all happened because someone first imagined it was possible.>>>>>>>>>>>> Sonia , Doesn't this actually promote people into believing that the violence needs to be continued to achieve a goal, as in case of Kashmir or for Naxalites ? Just trying to understand !!! Regards Pawan Durani On 3/20/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > My views on Tibet and my long support for the Dalai Lama and his peaceful > 'middle path' (autonomy not independence with full religious and cultural > rights) on Tibet are well known, as is my support to the right of return > of > the exiled Tibetans, Palestinians and Kashmiri Pandits. > > Have to clarify though that I did not write the petition in support of the > Tibetans but merely forwarded the message sent out by the organisation, > Avaaz, which I fully endorse. > > Peerzada Arshad rightly questioned the efficacy of these online petitions. > Of course I don't believe that me or you taking a few seconds out to sign > a > petition is going to change anything in China or anywhere else in the > world > where there is injustice. But even for a few seconds, it has brought an > issue into our consciousness. Perhaps we will think about it today, > perhaps > we will talk about it with a few friends and colleagues, and make common > cause with young Tibetans who are struggling to make sense of a world that > supports China because of its economic and military clout while ignoring > and > making irrelevant a struggle that has remained non-violent for over 60 > years. > > What does one do? How can one creatively respond to situations like these > that seem huge, powerful, insurmountable? > > The easiest thing in the world is to remain cynical or fall into despair. > The hardest is to keep faith, optimism and cheerfulness alive. What works > for me each time unerringly is to focus on two things: > > One, change is the nature of the universe. Whether we like it or not the > universe is in flux. Time flows, things happen. Seemingly unrelated > things > sometimes coalesce to bring down the whole house of cards: the > assassination > of Archduke Franz Ferdinand caused the First World War and the break up of > two empires. Notwithstanding the Vietnamese military pressures on the US, > the protests in America against Vietnam in the '60's forced the US > government to rethink its large-scale interventionist policies for 30 > years > until Iraq. > > And two, ideas. The end to slavery, the sun setting on the British > Empire, > the fall of the Berlin Wall all happened because someone first imagined it > was possible. > > My act of clicking on that petition, (though I'll admit is the worst form > of > armchair activism) is because I can imagine that another China, which is > more humane, more inclusive, more democratic is not only desirable but > possible. > > > > On 3/19/08 6:41 PM, "Aditya Raj Kaul" wrote: > > > Yeah. Unlike the other "elite class" of Sarai, Sonia did write something > about > > the Tibetans here. I appreciate her. And, on similar lines Pandits > continue > > their protest against terrorist and conscienceless killer Yasin > Malik. You can > > add your voice by signing here > http://www.petitiononline.com/ymalik8/ > > For > > more details on Malik, visit - > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 3/19/08, S. > > Jabbar wrote: > > > > A Million Strong for Tibet: End the > > violence > > > > THE TIBETANS ARE SENDING OUT A GLOBAL CRY FOR CHANGE. > > > > After > > decades of repression, Tibetans are crying out to the world for > > change. The > > Tibetan spiritual leader, His Holiness The Dalai Lama, has > > called for > > restraint and dialogs: he needs the world's people to support > > him. But > > violence is spreading across Tibet and the world, and the Chinese > > regime is > > right now considering a choice between increasing brutality or > > dialogs, that > > could determine the future of Tibet and China. > > > > We can affect this historic > > choice - China Œdoes¹ care about its > > international reputation. Its economy > > is totally dependent on "Made in > > China" exports that we all buy, and it is > > keen to make the Olympics in > > Beijing this summer a celebration of a new > > China that is a respected world > > power. The Chinese President Hu Jintao needs > > to hear that 'Brand China' > > and > > the Olympics can succeed only if he makes > > the right choice. But it will > > take > > an avalanche of global people power to > > get the government's attention. > > > > "I find hope in the darkest of days, and > > focus in the brightest. I do not > > judge the universe." > > - The Dalai > > Lama > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > IMMEDIATE ACTION > > ````````````````` > > > > Sign a > > petition. > > > > Click below to sign a petition to President Hu calling for > > restraint in > > Tibet and dialogue with the Dalai Lama -- and tell absolutely > > everyone you > > can right away. The petition is organized by Avaaz, and they > > are urgently > > aiming to reach 1 million signatures to deliver directly to > > Chinese > > officials: > > > > > > http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK > > > > > > Thank you so much for your help! > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & > > Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ___________________________ > > ______________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To > > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rama.sangye at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 15:31:32 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:31:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Panchayati Raj" in CPI(M)'s West Bengal Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0803250301xfaf4765gf247f6e995f6ab5e@mail.gmail.com> *Audit exposes panchayat lapses* Statesman News Service KOLKATA, March 24: Hundreds of panchayats, mostly controlled by the CPI-M, have been steeped in corruption and financial irregularities to the tune of crore of rupees during the past few years. The audit report on the state panchayati raj institutions, tabled in the Assembly today, has laid bare this tangled web of malpractices. In many cases not only money provided by different Central schemes was diverted, but people living below the poverty line for whom the schemes were meant, were deprived. In 1,573 gram panchayats Rs 37.67 crore was spent during 2004-05 towards assistance under Indira Awas Yojana (IAY) for construction and upgradation of huts, but none of the beneficiaries were from the BPL list. The scheme was specifically meant for this segment of the population. It "shows lack of internal control in selection of beneficiaries as per the guidelines of the scheme", the report stated. In another instance of corruption of colossal proportions, Rs 259.54 crore was given to the beneficiaries for constructing 68,245 sanitary latrines in 1,328 gram panchayats and 78,766 smokeless chullahs in 1,592 panchayats during 2004-05, but not a single such unit has come up. During 2002-2005 11 panchayat samitis spent Rs 84.85 lakh for Central schemes under Sampoorna Gramin Rojgar Yojana (SGRY) by engaging contractors. The guidelines stipulate that no contractor can be engaged for such schemes devised for the benefit of the rural poor. Thus, the erring panchayat samitis gave undue favours to contractors with funds that could have "ensured employment generation of 82,113 mandays", the report stated. In another bizarre instance of irregularities, the guidelines of SGRY were twisted in such a manner that funds were spent for religious purposes though the scheme "prohibits" such use. Two panchayat samitis of South 24-Parganas incurred expenditure to the tune of Rs 37.43 lakh for wages, materials and foodgrain valued at Rs 4.56lakh toward wages, for constructing sheds, fencing, bus stands, road, ramps, towers and hogla sheds for the Ganga Sagar mela in 2004. From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Mar 25 16:07:00 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:07:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Sartorialist in Delhi Message-ID: <9c06aab30803250337u7410b106q7fd1f641c5ec3c6c@mail.gmail.com> "The Sartorialist" has been called one of the "top 100 design influencers" by that arbiter of taste, Time magazine. Scott Schuman was in Delhi recently and has posted a lot of what his eye thought was interesting. See http://thesartorialist.blogspot.com/ and especially this post about an encounter with a Delhi Times journalist and the conversation about attar: http://thesartorialist.blogspot.com/2008/03/vetiver-oil-new-delhi.html [via presstalk.blogspot.com] best, shivam From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 16:58:00 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:58:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] China Inc. Message-ID: Jeebesh, you may find this interesting. sj State Inc. The most important new forces in global business are aggressive, wealthy, and entrepreneurial. But they aren't corporations: they're authoritarian governments. By Joshua Kurlantzick | March 16, 2008 IT WAS THE biggest corporate deal in the history of sub-Saharan Africa: Last October, a foreign firm spent nearly $6 billion for a chunk of Standard Bank, the South African company that has long dominated finance on the continent. Yet the foreign suitor was not Citigroup, or UBS, or some other titan of private commerce. It was the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, a company owned wholly by the Chinese government. On a business level, the deal gave ICBC's Chinese customers access to banking across Africa, and set the stage for closer relations between Chinese companies and African nations. In a bigger sense, it embodies a change that is reshaping the dynamics of global business. In the past five years, governments around the world have been transforming themselves into deal makers and business players on a scale never seen in the modern era. In China, state-owned oil giant PetroChina has become the largest company in the world, worth more than $1 trillion. In Russia, state-owned Gazprom has grown into the world's largest gas company. States are also wielding influence by directly buying into major private firms: The investment fund run by the Arab emirate of Abu Dhabi is now the world's largest, and recently spent $7.5 billion to become the top shareholder of the American financial giant Citigroup. Singapore's state-controlled wealth fund, Temasek Holdings, sank $5 billion into Merrill Lynch, the largest US brokerage. By 2015, according to an estimate by Morgan Stanley, such state-owned funds will control a staggering $12 trillion, far outpacing any private investors. The rise of states as global economic players marks a sharp reversal from decades in which private enterprise seemed an unstoppable force in global finance, commerce, and culture. It represents a new and unexpected fusion of state control with the business principles of capitalism. And it is already causing a significant shift in global power. The new state capitalists - China, the United Arab Emirates, Russia, and others - are primarily authoritarian nations. And as they become bigger commercial players, they are gaining new influence in a realm once dominated by the democratic West. Some political scientists, such as Azar Gat of Tel Aviv University, who coined the phrase "authoritarian capitalism" to describe the trend, see these countries as the first major threat to the idea of free-market democracy since fascism and communism. One striking recent study by the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative Washington think tank, shows that the economies of politically unfree nations have grown faster than those of politically free nations over the past decade, often through forceful use of business and financial power. A recent report by the global monitoring organization Freedom House found that "a group of market-oriented autocracies" were an important force in an overall decline in world freedom. Arch Puddington, Freedom House's director of research, sees these countries' new financial clout as having significant consequences for the world. "These autocracies are unapologetic and increasingly assertive, at home and abroad," he writes. In modern times, business and government have occupied increasingly separate spheres in Western economies - separation that has laid the groundwork for their economic ascendancy. By the end of the 20th century, many economists and political scientists assumed there was no other path to growth. The modern record of state-controlled business, by contrast, was chiefly one of failure. When the fascist and communist governments of the 20th century seized the reins of domestic industries, they ended up undermining development and bringing misery to millions of their own citizens. As private enterprise flourished in the West, the end of the Cold War and collapse of the Soviet Union were widely seen as a repudiation of the idea that governments could successfully control the business sector. But the wake of the Cold War also sowed the seeds of a new discontent with free-market private enterprise. Many emerging nations were stung by ill-planned privatization strategies in the 1990s. In Latin America, a decade of privatization proved so unpopular that, in a regionwide poll taken in 2001, a majority of people across 17 countries viewed privatization unfavorably. Across Africa, this era, known as the "lost decade," resulted in rising poverty, and even longing for some nations' authoritarian past. The failure of those privatization strategies helped create a ready audience for a different model. Perhaps the most dramatic example is China. Over the past 25 years, while keeping firm control over its economy, China has adopted many of the tools of capitalism - ceding some operational power to a Western-trained executive class, inviting foreign investment and partnerships, and buying and selling on the global open market. Beijing has also selected a range of strategic industries to develop, from oil to telecommunications to automobiles. By creating the state-owned China National Chemical Corporation in 2004, Beijing birthed a plastics manufacturing giant, one that quickly swallowed foreign companies like Qenos, one of the biggest plastics firms in Australia. State-owned Chinese automaker Nanjing Automobile bought up famed British car brand MG Rover, while Huawei, boosted by massive loans from state-linked Chinese banks, has expanded around the globe, even trying to take over US tech giant 3Com, a deal essentially scuttled by Congress. The result has been the most staggering economic development in modern history - all with a firm government hand on the tiller, and without the liberal political reforms considered by many in the West essential to economic growth. China has become the third-largest economy in the world; the city of Shanghai has transformed into a soaring business district packed with skyscrapers and luxury hotels. Even smaller provincial cities have grown into high-rise centers whose shopping malls are packed with moneyed Chinese buying up cars, lattes, and all the other fruits of capitalist prosperity. The Chinese example is proving immensely influential. Though China does not explicitly promote itself as a model of development, its government runs training programs for thousands of technocrats from across the globe, who hail from nations as wide ranging as Cuba and Vietnam. At last year's African Development Bank summit, held in Shanghai, President Marc Ravalomanana of Madagascar told the hosts, "You are an example of transformation. We in Africa must learn from your success." Even officials from wealthier developing nations come home impressed. When I interviewed one leading Thai businessman, a titan who owns a slew of industrial estates, he couldn't stop talking about China's development. He marveled at how quickly investments could be set up in a Chinese city: If the government decided it wanted that company, it would make permits so easy they could be done in a day. In Syria, the government of Bashar Assad has launched plans to emulate China, while in Iran both reformers and conservatives have discussed how to copy China. Raul Castro, who has visited China several times, reportedly wants to emulate Beijing in revamping Cuba's economy. Other nations are building their own powerhouse companies. In Russia, Vladimir Putin essentially has shut down most of Russia's privately held natural resources companies in order to build up the national gas firm Gazprom and other state companies. Gazprom alone controls roughly one-fifth of all gas production in the world, far larger than any private sector rival. (And its financial power translates into political power: Presumptive next Russian president Dmitry Medvedev, anointed by Putin, previously ran Gazprom.) Under Putin, the Kremlin also has extended its reach into industries from titanium manufacturing to aviation. Across Latin America and Central Asia, governments like Bolivia, Venezuela, and Kazakhstan also have reasserted state control over their oil and gas resources.Already, many of these national companies dwarf any rivals. State-owned oil companies around the world now control nearly five times the reserves of their private rivals; Saudi Aramco, the Saudi government's oil company, can pump roughly three times as much oil as any other firm, and has launched a massive $50 billion expansion program that will make it even more powerful. Corporate behemoths such as ExxonMobil and Shell may be among the largest private corporations in the world, but they are no longer the biggest players in their own industry. In aviation, an industry that requires vast amounts of capital, state-linked airlines now dominate private firms. From virtually nothing two decades ago, Dubai has built Emirates airlines, backed by the state, into a world leader and the second-most profitable airline in the world. The most profitable, Singapore Airlines, also enjoys state support - Singapore's state-owned fund owns nearly half the airline, as well as six of the country's other largest corporations. Nations are entering global business in another way as well. Besides building companies, states are using their cash reserves to create their own investment funds, and have rapidly become major players in global finance. The rising price of oil has put a gusher of cash in the hands of authoritarian petrostates like Saudi Arabia and Russia, all of which now want to invest their cash hoards. With their pile of reserves, oil producers like the United Arab Emirates and Asian exporters have developed massive state-controlled funds that can buy into companies around the globe. Abu Dhabi's fund alone controls nearly $900 billion, while China's controls $200 billion and Kuwait's $250 billion. Overall, state-controlled funds control as much as $7 trillion, according to several estimates, more than the entire hedge-fund industry. And they are growing. "The [funds] will become absolutely massive in size in the not-too-distant future, and will have powerful implications for the financial markets," notes Morgan Stanley's Stephen Jen, an expert on state funds. As the global business momentum shifts from private companies to national governments, the implications are far reaching. Many authoritarian governments realize that, in the post-Cold War era, a wealthy nation can extend its power very effectively without trying to build an army to compete with the US in military force in the short term. In Beijing, policy makers have developed a definition of China's strength called "comprehensive national power," which goes far beyond military strength to include economic might. China is now becoming a major aid donor across Africa, which it can than leverage to help Chinese companies win access to African resources. The state capitalists also are gaining influence through their power in global finance. As firms like Merrill Lynch and Citigroup have found out, state funds provide a vital new source of investment across a world in need of capital. The funds are increasingly bailing out American banks, giving them significant leverage over the US financial sector. They also are forcing the financial world, accustomed to a tight circle of power concentrated in places like New York and London, to woo developing nations. As shown by this winter's deals, leading banks have begun aggressively courting Middle Eastern and Asian state funds. Global institutions, too, understand the power shift: Recognizing China's growing economic might, the International Monetary Fund has revamped its voting structure to give Beijing more power. Yet these state funds are often far more opaque than major investors in the West. Even the largest, like Abu Dhabi's, reveal little about their workings. And unlike hedge funds, which are also secretive, they could be acting on political motives rather than purely financial ones. When a Russian fund buys into companies in Eastern Europe, for example, it is impossible to tell if it is doing so for financial reasons or to boost the Kremlin's political influence over its neighbors. Because of the close links between government and company, the state capitalists also use their diplomatic might to create business opportunities in a way free market nations never could. As Chinese oil companies have tried to win contracts to explore fields in Vietnam, they have come head to head with Western competitors. According to two people with knowledge of the negotiations, Chinese government officials have informed these Western firms that, if they want continued access to Chinese markets, they should give up their efforts in Vietnam. In Russia, the Kremlin's growing wealth has allowed Moscow to use Gazprom as a weapon against democratic neighbors like Georgia. Wealth also can be used in other ways. Within authoritarian countries, the new model allows governments to dilute potential opposition without giving up political power. In China, the government's co-opting of entrepreneurs, now allowed to join the Party, has helped ensure that the middle class, which in the 1980s usually supported reform, increasingly tolerates the regime. In Russia, nationalizing the energy industry has reduced the possibility that any future Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a tycoon who once used his petroleum wealth to fund civil society groups, might emerge within Russia itself. In the long run, though, worries about these developments may fade. Though it may seem as unstoppable as the rise of private corporations in the 20th century, today's shift to authoritarian capitalism may actually contain the seeds of its own demise. State capitalism fosters corruption, allowing smaller circles of state-connected elites to control more wealth. In China, state dominance has meant that "princelings," relatives of leading Communist Party members, have gained control of some of the nation's most powerful companies. Even one Chinese government study of 3,000 of the nation's richest businesspeople admitted that a significant majority are related to top officials. In Venezuela, growing state control has made the national oil firm less productive and more opaque, one reason why the country now ranks near the bottom on Transparency International's index of the world's most corrupt nations. Across Central Asia, too, state dominance of national oil companies has led to a spout of graft, including a US Justice Department indictment that fingers Kazakhstan's president, identified as "Official #2," for receiving millions in bribes. And despite the national resources that can be poured into business growth, in the long term, state mega-companies are likely to suffer from competition on the global stage. Without exposure to domestic competition, their managers never get enough experience to compete on an open market. They also have no pressure to adopt real corporate governance and oversight measures. There is already some indication that openness has its advantages: India has more globally competitive multinationals than China. It is a slightly smaller country, and far poorer, but unlike China it is a true democracy. Joshua Kurlantzick is a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and author of "Charm Offensive: How China's Soft Power is Transforming the World." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 22:57:29 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:57:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is China A Neurotic State? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803251027v32ba5a38o85b0e16bb87bc241@mail.gmail.com> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080319&fname=chinatibet&sid=1 From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 09:22:15 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:22:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70803241104i77aaacbft2056ca0773615c9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I can’t speak for those who advocate violence, but if you are saying the Dalai Lama’s non-violent campaign has been ineffectual, you have to ask whether the Kashmiri or Naxalite movements have achieved their stated objectives. You have to also examine people’s attitudes in those areas that have suffered prolonged cycles of violence , for example Sri Lanka or even Kashmir, to see whether it is as efficacious a political tool as was believed initially. On 3/24/08 11:34 PM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > On 3/20/08, S. Jabbar wrote:>>>>>>>>And two, ideas. > The end to slavery, the sun setting on the British Empire,the fall of the > Berlin Wall all happened because someone first imagined it was > possible.>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Sonia , > > Doesn't this actually promote people into believing that the violence needs to > be continued to achieve a goal, as in case of Kashmir or for Naxalites ? > > Just trying to understand !!! > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 3/20/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> My views on Tibet and my long support for the Dalai Lama and his peaceful >> 'middle path' (autonomy not independence with full religious and cultural >> rights) on Tibet are well known, as is my support to the right of return of >> the exiled Tibetans, Palestinians and Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> Have to clarify though that I did not write the petition in support of the >> Tibetans but merely forwarded the message sent out by the organisation, >> Avaaz, which I fully endorse. >> >> Peerzada Arshad rightly questioned the efficacy of these online petitions. >> Of course I don't believe that me or you taking a few seconds out to sign a >> petition is going to change anything in China or anywhere else in the world >> where there is injustice. But even for a few seconds, it has brought an >> issue into our consciousness. Perhaps we will think about it today, perhaps >> we will talk about it with a few friends and colleagues, and make common >> cause with young Tibetans who are struggling to make sense of a world that >> supports China because of its economic and military clout while ignoring and >> making irrelevant a struggle that has remained non-violent for over 60 >> years. >> >> What does one do? How can one creatively respond to situations like these >> that seem huge, powerful, insurmountable? >> >> The easiest thing in the world is to remain cynical or fall into despair. >> The hardest is to keep faith, optimism and cheerfulness alive. What works >> for me each time unerringly is to focus on two things: >> >> One, change is the nature of the universe. Whether we like it or not the >> universe is in flux. Time flows, things happen. Seemingly unrelated things >> sometimes coalesce to bring down the whole house of cards: the assassination >> of Archduke Franz Ferdinand caused the First World War and the break up of >> two empires. Notwithstanding the Vietnamese military pressures on the US, >> the protests in America against Vietnam in the '60's forced the US >> government to rethink its large-scale interventionist policies for 30 years >> until Iraq. >> >> And two, ideas. The end to slavery, the sun setting on the British Empire, >> the fall of the Berlin Wall all happened because someone first imagined it >> was possible. >> >> My act of clicking on that petition, (though I'll admit is the worst form of >> armchair activism) is because I can imagine that another China, which is >> more humane, more inclusive, more democratic is not only desirable but >> possible. >> >> >> >> On 3/19/08 6:41 PM, "Aditya Raj Kaul" wrote: >> >>> > Yeah. Unlike the other "elite class" of Sarai, Sonia did write something >> about >>> > the Tibetans here. I appreciate her. And, on similar lines Pandits >> continue >>> > their protest against terrorist and conscienceless killer Yasin >> Malik. You can >>> > add your voice by signing here >> http://www.petitiononline.com/ymalik8/ >> >> For >>> > more details on Malik, visit - >>> > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >>> >> >> Thanks >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> On 3/19/08, S. >>> > Jabbar wrote: >>> > >>> > A Million Strong for Tibet: End the >>> > violence >>> > >>> > THE TIBETANS ARE SENDING OUT A GLOBAL CRY FOR CHANGE. >>> > >>> > After >>> > decades of repression, Tibetans are crying out to the world for >>> > change. The >>> > Tibetan spiritual leader, His Holiness The Dalai Lama, has >>> > called for >>> > restraint and dialogs: he needs the world's people to support >>> > him. But >>> > violence is spreading across Tibet and the world, and the Chinese >>> > regime is >>> > right now considering a choice between increasing brutality or >>> > dialogs, that >>> > could determine the future of Tibet and China. >>> > >>> > We can affect this historic >>> > choice - China Œdoes¹ care about its >>> > international reputation. Its economy >>> > is totally dependent on "Made in >>> > China" exports that we all buy, and it is >>> > keen to make the Olympics in >>> > Beijing this summer a celebration of a new >>> > China that is a respected world >>> > power. The Chinese President Hu Jintao needs >>> > to hear that 'Brand China' >>> > and >>> > the Olympics can succeed only if he makes >>> > the right choice. But it will >>> > take >>> > an avalanche of global people power to >>> > get the government's attention. >>> > >>> > "I find hope in the darkest of days, and >>> > focus in the brightest. I do not >>> > judge the universe." >>> > - The Dalai >>> > Lama >>> > >>> > >>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> > >>> > IMMEDIATE ACTION >>> > ````````````````` >>> > >>> > Sign a >>> > petition. >>> > >>> > Click below to sign a petition to President Hu calling for >>> > restraint in >>> > Tibet and dialogue with the Dalai Lama -- and tell absolutely >>> > everyone you >>> > can right away. The petition is organized by Avaaz, and they >>> > are urgently >>> > aiming to reach 1 million signatures to deliver directly to >>> > Chinese >>> > officials: >>> > >>> > >>> > http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK >>> > >>> > >>> > Thank you so much for your help! >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & >>> > Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> > with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> ___________________________ >>> > ______________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> > city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >>> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To >>> > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List >>> > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 09:34:23 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 00:04:23 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The story of Thokia, a Washington Post article References: <867533.54740.qm@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00dc01c88ef6$87009340$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Bandit Gains Locals' Loyalty While Long Eluding the Police. By:Rama Lakshmi. JHINNA, India. Wearing a bulletproof vest, the policeman balanced himself precariously on a rock and looked through binoculars at the thick bamboo and teak jungle growth ahead. Twenty-two other officers, equipped with AK-47s and night-vision devices, spread themselves around in the day's fading light, some crouching, others hiding behind trees and rocks. Do you see any bandit movement, sir? an officer asked from behind a tree. Not yet, but we have information he was here yesterday," responded the first man. In a two-hour search that followed, the officers combed a patch of dry jungle in the central Indian plateau, looking for an elusive bandit called Thokia, Hindi slang for "the one who shoots. The operation was a surreal mix of medieval and modern tactics. To find their way, the team relied on both village whispers about bandit sightings and Google Earth satellite images. On this evening, they came up dry, again. Ambika Prasad Thokia is the most wanted bandit in this area today," said Beni Prasad Ahirwal, a police officer in the search party. There are 64 cases of murder and kidnap against him. There is a $12,000 reward on his head. He cannot hide in these jungles for long because we are making his life hell. Madhya Pradesh, a region of jungles, forbidding rocky ravines and deep poverty, has harbored bandits and renegades since at least the 12th century, historians say. Between 1957 and 2001 alone, nearly 5,700 bandits have come and gone in the province. In the past five years, Thokia, 33, has become part of the local folklore, a Robin Hood figure. He and his gang of 20 have killed several police officers and other bandits. They have abducted businessmen and public works contractors for ransom. They also have managed to build a reputation of never hurting poor people, especially those of the leader's own caste. All bandits use the caste structure to become powerful," said Dinesh Kumar Singh, an assistant professor of political science at Jiwaji University, Gwalior. Members of the caste community vicariously derive social prestige from the bandit. They feel proud that one of their own is invoking fear among the policemen. One of five children, Thokia was born to a lower-caste farmer with a small plot of land in Lokhariha village in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. When he was a young man, the story goes, his sister was raped. He pleaded with local police and the village council to arrest the perpetrator, but they refused. So at 23, he ran away from home, pledging revenge. He killed the brothers of the rapist, but the man himself is still free. Many villagers refer to Thokia as "brother. Some say he is a good man who was forced by circumstances to take up arms. Others say he is religious, never missing his prayer chants at dawn. For members of his kurmi-patel caste group, he is a benevolent protector who settles petty village disputes and donates money at weddings. By most accounts, he is also the highest-educated bandit in Madhya Pradesh in recent years, having finished half of an undergraduate degree in commerce. He worked part time with a pharmacist learning about health care, and sometimes gives free medicine to villagers in need, thus earning another of his sympathetic names, "doctor. For businessmen in the area, he is simply a bloodthirsty bandit. He sends out life-threatening ransom demands on his own private letterhead that says "King of Bandits" in Hindi on top. Police say that Thokia's name spells such fear among businessmen that they often quietly hand over the money to him without informing authorities. A handwritten extortion note addressed to a construction company, procured from the police files, begins with an invocation of the Hindu goddess Kali and demands the equivalent of more than $100,000. Or else, your machines will be destroyed, your men will be abducted and you will not be allowed to work in the district," the note ends. An employee of a company that is building a road in the area said he received a phone call from Thokia three months ago. I cannot give you any details, I don't want more trouble. But Thokia asked for money," said Babu, an engineer with the company. It is a bandit area, we work under a lot of fear. Our construction work halted for now, after his call. But villagers of the kurmi-patel caste who spot Thokia and his men walking in the jungle appear to breathe not a word to the police. Three weeks ago, Thokia and his men sought shelter at an impoverished, dry, red-soil hamlet in the jungle called Majhgavan. The villagers watched him from behind trees in hushed silence. I saw the doctor-brother. He bathed under a tree and sat with his eyes closed in full meditation. His rifle hung from his shoulder as he chanted," recalled Rajesh Kumar, a 26-year-old farm laborer. He bought some flour and potatoes from me. He also gave an injection and some medicines to my uncle who was sick. He told us not to be afraid and not to tell the police. The police do not even have a recent photograph of Thokia, relying on a picture from his teens. But their investigation files are full of Thokia trivia. He is 5 feet 3 inches tall and wears pants that are 30 inches around at the waist; his tennis shoes are size 10. He wears four gold rings and a thick, spiraling chain around his neck. On his right arm is an egg-shaped, dark brown mark. Most of his gang members are in their 30s and wear khaki-colored uniforms, but Thokia prefers black. He wakes up at 4 every morning, bathes and recites verses in praise of the goddess Durga, and lights incense sticks. He is so devout that his men carry coconuts so that he can break and offer them in prayer at shrines they pass in the jungle. He has even won the admiration of some police officers. He has no bad habits," said Abhay Singh, the superintendent of police, after listing the outlaw's alleged crimes. No smoking. No drinking. And no relations with women. His word is law in the gang. And this is how he has managed to remain safe until now. He cannot be tempted. India's most famous bandit was a lower-caste woman called Phoolan Devi, the subject of a 1994 movie called "Bandit Queen. She later was elected to Parliament with support from women and lower castes. Last year, Thokia joined the long list of bandits who dabble in politics. He campaigned stealthily for his mother when she ran for the Uttar Pradesh legislative assembly. But despite his considerable influence, she lost by 3,500 votes.. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 10:10:15 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:10:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Clinton vs. Obama vs. the world Message-ID: Leveraging the Power of Race and Gender by KAVITA NANDINI RAMDAS [posted online on February 21, 2008] As the contest for a Democratic presidential nominee enters its final stages, the feminist dilemma has become palpable and painful. My inbox has been filled with passionate and provocative pieces from Katha Pollitt, Frances Kissling, Caroline Kennedy and Feminists for Peace and Barack Obama, all explaining why they are not supporting Hillary Clinton. Equally strong commentary in support of Clinton, and dismissing Obama, has arrived from Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Ellie Smeal and Ellen Malcolm. All decry the misogyny evident in media coverage of the candidates and grapple--with varying degrees of success--with race and gender conflict. Clinton fans mention in passing that Hillary has been an international voice for women's rights. As a feminist whose daily work focuses on the challenges facing women outside the United States--particularly those living in poverty, in war zones and under extreme patriarchal control--I think these conversations have a surreal quality. They are surreal because they are so perfectly American in their insularity. What is alarmingly absent from our conversations and arguments, even as they allude to race and gender, is any sense of how our decisions affect the well- being of people across the planet--not least the status of women, 51 percent of us, who are being treated with appalling brutality around the globe. There is something profoundly wrong when a conversation about qualifications to be President of the most powerful nation in the world ignores the reality facing most of that world's inhabitants. While American pundits debate whether Clinton is being targeted unfairly, for example, thousands of women and children in Gaza are being collectively punished as Israel, a neighboring state and former occupying power, withholds food, fuel and electricity. Yet who is talking about that? In the face of such a travesty of human rights and international law, not one of the presidential candidates, regardless of race or gender, has the gumption to speak out and say this is wrong. Not one has said that he or she will not tolerate such behavior by any ally of the United States. We live in a world where women are facing an epidemic of rape in conflicts from Nepal to Chiapas to the Democratic Republic of Congo, yet neither Clinton nor Obama has seen fit to mention it. Recent reports of the widespread murder of educated women in Iraq by religious extremists are adding new horror to an already horrifying situation but are going almost unreported. Women and children today form the bulk of the world's refugees and make up the majority of the world's poor. Despite doing more than two-thirds of the world's labor, women own only 1 percent of the world's assets. Yet not one presidential candidate has chosen to highlight the profound threat that gender inequality is posing to the development, economic stability and future peace of our world. At times like these, the practical politics of US elections are staggeringly oppressive. We are told by the experts that Americans do not care about, or vote on the basis of, what happens in the rest of the world. We hear claims that presidential candidates cannot raise these issues during the race: we just have to trust that they will do better once they are in office. That is not good enough. I want to hear from the woman running for President why being a woman and a mother matters to her and how it will inform her leadership. I want her to stand up for the millions of women who are not heard here or around the world. I want her to chart her course as the wisest, most humane President this country has ever seen, not to show us how much more macho she can be as our next Commander in Chief. Women in the developing world are not reassured when they see Madeleine Albright standing next to Hillary Clinton. They have not forgotten that this former Secretary of State, when questioned about the death of more than 500,000 children as a result of sanctions against Iraq, responded that the price had been worth it. Most would prefer a President tough enough to say that Iraqi children matter to her as much as American children and that she would use the awesome power of the presidency to ensure the safety and well-being of all the world's children. Hillary Clinton would not be alone if she chose to own her power as a skilled and qualified politician and as a woman. There is a rising number of fiercely feminine and feminist leaders around the globe--people like Michelle Bachelet of Chile, who is unafraid to be an agnostic single mother in a deeply Catholic country, and Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia, whose first act as president was passing legislation against sexual violence. Hillary has a unique chance to stand alongside them. For her to dance so gingerly around the question of gender in international affairs is to miss an extraordinary opportunity to use gender as a platform for healing the deep wounds left by the previous presidency. But my high expectations are not limited to Hillary. I have equally high goals for the man who says he will unite us. Obama has his own powerful but underutilized tool: race. What prevents him, for example, from drawing analogies between the plight facing women--many of whom live in subjugation simply by virtue of their gender--and the experience of slavery? And why stop there? By owning the question of race on an international stage, Obama would have an amazing opportunity to reach out to people worldwide--who are in more need of hope than most Americans could imagine. Regardless of whether there are votes in it, this is of profound relevance to all of us in this country. Yet Obama is also missing this chance. What is happening when a truly multiracial candidate, whose first name means "blessing" in Hebrew and Arabic and whose middle name is Hussein, feels he must spend his moral capital proving his Christian credentials? What I want is for Obama to stand with my husband, a man born and raised in Pakistan, who now is asked to step aside for a random search each time we board an airplane. He needs to tell us that he knows only too well that if he were not a US senator but an ordinary man with a foreign name going on vacation with his family, this could happen to him. I'd like to hear from him that when he looks at the United States or the world, what he sees are not Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews or atheists but simply human beings desperate to be treated with dignity and respect. Like Clinton, Obama, too, can find inspiration and solidarity with a new generation of global leaders emerging from the shackles of their minority status. For the first time in Latin American history, for example, indigenous or mixed-ancestry leaders are holding power as the head of state in Bolivia and Venezuela. Obama has an unparalleled opportunity to speak to them from an empathetic perspective. And as September 11 showed us, our foreign policy is only a short step from our domestic concerns. The next President needs the ability to demonstrate the inner courage and conviction that comes from owning his or her "otherness." As a woman and a mother, Hillary Clinton could bring insights and perspectives no other President in US history could have brought to the negotiating table of war and peace. As the stepson of an Indonesian Muslim and the son of a Kenyan and a white woman from Kansas, Barack Obama manifests what it means to be a global citizen. What is at stake in this election is not merely the historic first that would be accomplished if either a black man or a woman became the next US President. What is at stake is the fragile future of our shared world. From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 20:30:25 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:00:25 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet: an article in the Hindu References: Message-ID: <02bd01c88f52$26e45e90$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Today's Hindu has an interesting article in it. Interesting because you'd think that Hindu told China High commission in India to write it. The term "International Media" used in the article denotes the media other than those under the control of Chinese government, Hindu seems to be one of them. Of course, the prison sentences to the dissenting Chinese journalists and intellectuals, lack of human rights, the forced evictions of people in the name of development never finds any mention in Hindu articles. The motto of the article seems to be "kill (in Tibet) and let us kill (in Kashmir)" The paper really seems to have become progressive. The question of Tibet If you go by western media reports, the propaganda of the so-called 'Tibetan government-in-exile' in Dharamsala and the votaries of the 'Free Tibet' cause, or by the fulminations of Nancy Pelosi and the Hollywood glitterati, Tibet is in the throes of a mass democratic uprising against Han Chinese communist rule. Some of the more fanciful news stories, images, and opinion pieces on the 'democratic' potential of this uprising have been put out by leading western newspapers and television networks. The reality is that the riot that broke out in Lhasa on March 14 and claimed a confirmed toll of 22 lives involved violent, ransacking mobs, including 300 militant monks from the Drepung Monastery, who marched in tandem with a foiled 'March to Tibet' by groups of monks across the border in India. In Lhasa, the rioters committed murder, arson, and other acts of savagery against innocent civilians and caused huge damage to public and private property. The atrocities included dousing one man with petrol and setting him alight, beating a patrol policeman and carving out a fist-size piece of his flesh, and torching a school with 800 terrorised pupils cowering inside. Visual images and independent eyewitness accounts attest to this ugly reality, which even compelled the Dalai Lama to threaten to resign. There was violence also in Tibetan ethnic areas in the adjacent provinces of Gansu and Sichuan, which, according to official estimates, took an injury toll of more than 700. Western analyses have linked these incidents to the March 10 anniversary of the failed 1959 Tibetan uprising, non-progress in the talks between the Dalai Lama's emissaries and Beijing, China's human rights record, and the Beijing Olympic Games, which will of course be held as scheduled from August 8 to 24. Recent accounts, however, express unease and sadness over the containment of the troubles, the 'large-scale,' if belated and politically slow, response by Beijing, and the 'brutal ease' with which the protests have been 'smothered'. In another context, say Pakistan under Pervez Musharraf, such a response would have been called exemplary restraint. As evidence accumulates, the realisation dawns that it is too much to expect any legitimate government of a major country to turn the other cheek to such savagery and breakdown of public order. So there is a shift in the key demand made on China: it must 'initiate' a dialogue with the Dalai Lama to find a sustainable political solution in Tibet. But this is precisely what China has done for over three decades. The framework of the political solution is there for all to see. There is not a single government in the world that either disputes the status of Tibet; or does not recognise it as a part of the People's Republic of China; or is willing to accord any kind of legal recognition to the Dalai Lama's 'government-in-exile.' This situation certainly presents a contrast to the lack of an international consensus on the legal status of Kashmir. Nevertheless, there remains a Tibet political question, represented by the ideology and politics of the Dalai Lama and the 'independence for Tibet' movement, and it has an international as well as a domestic dimension. This is an era of unprecedented development for the Chinese economy, which has grown at nearly 10 per cent a year for three decades. Tibet itself is on an economic roll: it has sustained an annual growth rate of more than 12 per cent over the past six years and is now on a 13-14 per cent growth trajectory. A new politics of conciliation towards the Dalai Lama's camp has been shaped by this era, and since 2002, six rounds of discussion have taken place between the representatives of the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government. The former have stated that the Dalai Lama's current approach is to "look to the future as opposed to Tibet's history to resolve its status vis-À-vis China," and that the crux of his 'Middle Way' approach is to "recognise today's reality that Tibet is part of the People's Republic of China ... and not raise the issue of separation from China in working on a mutually acceptable solution for Tibet." The real problem arises from two demands pressed by the Dalai Lama. The first is his concept of 'high-level' or 'maximum' autonomy in line with the 'one country, two systems' principle. The Chinese government points out that this is applicable only to Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan, and that the kind of autonomy that the Dalai Lama demanded in November 2005 cannot possibly be accommodated within the Chinese Constitution. Secondly, the 2.6 million Tibetans in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), which constitutes one-eighth of China's territory, form only 40 per cent of the total population of Tibetans in China. The Chinese government makes the perfectly reasonable point that acceptance of the demand for 'Greater Tibet' or 'one administrative entity' for all 6.5 million ethnic Tibetans means breaking up Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan, and Yunnan provinces, doing ethnic re-engineering, if not 'cleansing', and causing enormous disruption and damage to China's society and political system. This demand too is ruled out, as any comparable demand to break up States in India would be. Multi-ethnic India is no stranger to such challenges to its territorial integrity: just consider the armed insurgency challenges, in some cases with external fuelling, in Jammu & Kashmir and in several parts of the North-East. Although the United Progressive Alliance government has made some statements about the Tibet incidents that hew close to the Washington line, it will be pleased that the studied official Chinese response has been to highlight India's "clear and consistent" stand on the status of Tibet as part of the People's Republic of China. New Delhi has allowed too much latitude to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan discontents for their political activities on Indian soil, which go against the stand that they are not allowed "to engage in anti-China political activities in India," a principle reaffirmed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee in Washington on March 24. The time has come for India to use the leverage that comes with hosting the Dalai Lama and his followers since 1959 to persuade or pressure him to get real about the future of Tibet -- and engage in a sincere dialogue with Beijing to find a reasonable, just, and sustainable political solution within the framework of one China. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" To: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 8:40 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet >A Million Strong for Tibet: End the violence > > THE TIBETANS ARE SENDING OUT A GLOBAL CRY FOR CHANGE. > > After decades of repression, Tibetans are crying out to the world for > change. The Tibetan spiritual leader, His Holiness The Dalai Lama, has > called for restraint and dialogs: he needs the world's people to support > him. But violence is spreading across Tibet and the world, and the Chinese > regime is right now considering a choice between increasing brutality or > dialogs, that could determine the future of Tibet and China. > > We can affect this historic choice - China Œdoes¹ care about its > international reputation. Its economy is totally dependent on "Made in > China" exports that we all buy, and it is keen to make the Olympics in > Beijing this summer a celebration of a new China that is a respected world > power. The Chinese President Hu Jintao needs to hear that 'Brand China' > and > the Olympics can succeed only if he makes the right choice. But it will > take > an avalanche of global people power to get the government's attention. > > "I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not > judge the universe." > - The Dalai Lama > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > IMMEDIATE ACTION > ````````````````` > > Sign a petition. > > Click below to sign a petition to President Hu calling for restraint in > Tibet and dialogue with the Dalai Lama -- and tell absolutely everyone you > can right away. The petition is organized by Avaaz, and they are urgently > aiming to reach 1 million signatures to deliver directly to Chinese > officials: > > http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/98.php/?CLICK_TF_TRACK > > Thank you so much for your help! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Mar 26 20:56:23 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2850.91443.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All, Though I am not a great personality to talk about HISTORY, PAST and interested as well, but If I ask a very basic question with mere innocence over this >>Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, reluctantly >>agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was born as free India >>emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH SAW THE >>SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, >>SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? What happen if late Mr.M.K.Gandhi disagrees for the division of the nation on faith? Let us discuss pros and cons over this. Probably the same amount of casualties (after Partition) could have happened as a result of disagreement, but they are for time being (i.e., once and for all) only. There should not be any troubles, whatever the country (I MEAN INDIA AS A NATION) has been suffering and facing (since 60 years) from all directions. I would like to question MUSLIM LEAGUE ROLE over SUB-CONTINENT INDEPENDENCE, their leaders’ sacrifices as that of ... (as there are in-numerous HINDU patriots, I could not mention just one or 2). It is clear that Mr. JINNAH AND HIS PUPPETS with cunning BRITISH BACK ENJOYED/ENTHRALLED the POWER and LAND freely. If 2 nation theory failed so utterly why was a SEPARATE COUNTRY CALLED PAKISTAN IS STILL SURVIVING with OCCUPIED, GIFTED INDIAN TERRITORIES TO CHINA? --Coming back to late Mr. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, 1) HE DIDN'T HAIL FROM ANY DYNASTY. LIKE EVERY FATHER, HIS FATHER SENT HIM TO LONDON FOR HIGHER STUDIES. THE RICHNESS COMES FROM HIS FATHERS' THEN PROFESSION. AS HE WAS INTELLIGENT, HE FLOURISHED IN STUDIES AND IN POLITICS AS WELL. WHAT WE believe a) LATE Mr. NEHRU WAS CHEATED BY EVERYBODY (BRITISH, FRIENDS, SECULARISTS, INTELLECTUALS AND THEN CHINA) like India WAS CHEATED AND ROBBED BY INVADERS. How? As a CASTE RIDDEN INDIAN SOCIETY (WHY RACISM WAS IS SO POPULAR IN WESTERN WORLD. Where does it come from? ARE THEY JUST STEAL it from India after invasions like anything? Why did they fail to eradicate it?) AND NOBODY WILLING TO LOOSE THEIR CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS, Why late Mr. NEHRU was chosen/influenced to give away his daughter, INDIRAPRIYADARSINI to a PARSI BRIDEGROOM? Is Mr.M.K.GANDHI or Mr.JINNAH feared to do so (As both were having sons and daughters)? What was then SOCIETY (INTELLECTUAL OR ORDINARY) silent and play a spectators role over this? --Finally What Mr. Nehru did to whom? Entire India starting from school going kids to 110 year old know about his vision, his plans and his burning desire for the Country AND ITS DEVELOPMENT. If we talk about the world starting from CHINA to the country that ANY BODY mention, The universe know and if they have conscious they remember HIM and pray with FOLDED HANDS. I hope none of you feel, contradict and murmur if I quote, Too err is human, and what if late Mr. Nehru err in few cases if any (anybody point or feel) after all Mr. Nehru too a human. Late Mr. Nehru ruled INDIA as per the constitution written under the stewardship of Mr. Ambedkar in a better way as that of any body all times. (Of course Indirapriyadarsini as well). Regards, Dhatri. radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Hi, all. All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand gandhi was as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India which did not include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji Subhash was popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian national Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High Command " then chose Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER OR POSITION lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE prime minister HIMSELF. His greed for position and favour and nepotism and dynastical fervour is seen in free India. Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the Rajeevs and Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good human, with good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, selfish, never cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. Regards.. From: we wi Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition To: Partha Dasgupta , Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Partha, > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > note the difference in everything. > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I > just follow > >>>what I believe is right. > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > to say this. > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > breed hate and > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > believing anything. > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > or profess to > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > list except my cousin > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > what of me. > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > engaging in a > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Pawan, > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > followwhat I believe is right. > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > hate and > more violence and > can not be a solution. > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > that is > 'AsitRed'). However, > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block > without > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > profess to > here is not > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > cousinwho > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > in a > debate when > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - > are you > proposing that > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > violence - > because that is > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > pointof the debate. > > Rgds, Partha > ..................... > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Partha , > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > you to > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > the bunch, > > maintain double standards. > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the > start up line > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - > just more > > > death and hate. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ................... > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > Yasine> > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > Yasin Malik a > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > understand is your > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > violence. One of the > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > considered it > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > something all > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > If it > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > organiser of > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > his feet > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > of mind > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > where he > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! Search. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 21:37:07 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:37:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <2850.91443.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <2850.91443.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990803260907v50c3713ne24e3cf669c462f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dhatri, As usual, you have completely ignored the debate and gone off on an unrelated tangent. All that we are clarifying here is: a) What is more important, getting the migrants back to Kashmir (which can only happen after there is a measure of peace - and not hate) or living in a hate-blinded stupor that only allows you to keep asking for death. b) Do you really believe that continuing the killing and being oblivious to everything else will solve anything. Rgds, Partha ............................................. On 3/26/08, we wi wrote: > > Dear All, > > Though I am not a great personality to talk about HISTORY, PAST and > interested as well, but If I ask a very basic question with mere innocence > over this > > >>Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of > us, reluctantly > >>agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was born > as free India > >>emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH SAW THE > >>SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, > >>SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > What happen if late Mr.M.K.Gandhi disagrees for the division of the > nation on faith? > Let us discuss pros and cons over this. Probably the same amount of > casualties (after Partition) could have happened as a result of > disagreement, but they are for time being (i.e., once and for all) only. > There should not be any troubles, whatever the country (I MEAN INDIA AS A > NATION) has been suffering and facing (since 60 years) from all > directions. > > I would like to question MUSLIM LEAGUE ROLE over SUB-CONTINENT > INDEPENDENCE, their leaders' sacrifices as that of ... (as there > are in-numerous HINDU patriots, I could not mention just one or 2). It is > clear that Mr. JINNAH AND HIS PUPPETS with cunning BRITISH BACK > ENJOYED/ENTHRALLED the POWER and LAND freely. If 2 nation theory failed so > utterly why was a SEPARATE COUNTRY CALLED PAKISTAN IS STILL SURVIVING with > OCCUPIED, GIFTED INDIAN TERRITORIES TO CHINA? > > --Coming back to late Mr. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, > > 1) HE DIDN'T HAIL FROM ANY DYNASTY. LIKE EVERY FATHER, HIS FATHER > SENT HIM TO LONDON FOR HIGHER STUDIES. THE RICHNESS COMES FROM HIS > FATHERS' THEN PROFESSION. AS HE WAS INTELLIGENT, HE FLOURISHED IN STUDIES > AND IN POLITICS AS WELL. WHAT WE believe > > a) LATE Mr. NEHRU WAS CHEATED BY EVERYBODY (BRITISH, FRIENDS, > SECULARISTS, INTELLECTUALS AND THEN CHINA) like India WAS CHEATED AND ROBBED > BY INVADERS. How? > > > As a CASTE RIDDEN INDIAN SOCIETY (WHY RACISM WAS IS SO POPULAR IN WESTERN > WORLD. Where does it come from? ARE THEY JUST STEAL it from India after > invasions like anything? Why did they fail to eradicate it?) AND NOBODY > WILLING TO LOOSE THEIR CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS, > > Why late Mr. NEHRU was chosen/influenced to give away his daughter, > INDIRAPRIYADARSINI to a PARSI BRIDEGROOM? Is Mr.M.K.GANDHI or Mr.JINNAH feared > to do so (As both were having sons and daughters)? What was then SOCIETY > (INTELLECTUAL OR ORDINARY) silent and play a spectators role over this? > > --Finally What Mr. Nehru did to whom? > > Entire India starting from school going kids to 110 year old know about > his vision, his plans and his burning desire for the Country AND ITS > DEVELOPMENT. If we talk about the world starting from CHINA to the country > that ANY BODY mention, The universe know and if they have conscious they > remember HIM and pray with FOLDED HANDS. > > I hope none of you feel, contradict and murmur if I quote, > Too err is human, and what if late Mr. Nehru err in few cases if any > (anybody point or feel) after all Mr. Nehru too a human. Late Mr. Nehru > ruled INDIA as per the constitution written under the stewardship of Mr. > Ambedkar in a better way as that of any body all times. (Of course > Indirapriyadarsini as well). > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > > *radhikarajen at vsnl.net* wrote: > > Hi, all. > > All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand gandhi was > as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India which did not > include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji Subhash was > popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian national > Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High Command " then chose > Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. > > Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, > reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was > born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH > SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, > SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER OR POSITION > lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE prime minister HIMSELF. > His greed for position and favour and nepotism and dynastical fervour is > seen in free India. > Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the Rajeevs and > Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good human, with > good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, selfish, never > cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. > Regards.. > From: we wi > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > To: Partha Dasgupta , Pawan Durani > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Partha, > > > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > > note the difference in everything. > > > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I > > just follow > > >>>what I believe is right. > > > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > > to say this. > > > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > > breed hate and > > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > > believing anything. > > > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > > or profess to > > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > > list except my cousin > > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > > what of me. > > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > > engaging in a > > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Pawan, > > > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > > followwhat I believe is right. > > > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > > hate and > > more violence and > > can not be a solution. > > > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > > that is > > 'AsitRed'). However, > > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block > > without > > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > > profess to > > here is not > > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > > cousinwho > > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. > > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > > in a > > debate when > > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - > > are you > > proposing that > > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > > violence - > > because that is > > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > > pointof the debate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ..................... > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > > you to > > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > > the bunch, > > > maintain double standards. > > > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the > > start up line > > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - > > just more > > > > death and hate. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ................... > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > > Yasine> > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > > Yasin Malik a > > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > > understand is your > > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > > violence. One of the > > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > > considered it > > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > > something all > > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > > If it > > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > > organiser of > > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > > his feet > > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > > of mind > > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > > where he > > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! Search. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 03:53:14 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:53:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <2850.91443.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <2850.91443.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0803261523s47c2b8cdocd6bce1a2602f6f0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Wi We, I think you would find the surrealist experiments of automatic writing, where the actions of the hand are unhinged from those of the mind, and stream of consciousness prose very interesting. You seem to have perfected both in the prose style you have adopted as your own. Fascinating. warmly Aarti On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:56 PM, we wi wrote: > Dear All, > > Though I am not a great personality to talk about HISTORY, PAST and > interested as well, but If I ask a very basic question with mere innocence > over this > > >>Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of > us, reluctantly > >>agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was > born as free India > >>emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH SAW THE > >>SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, > >>SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > What happen if late Mr.M.K.Gandhi disagrees for the division of the > nation on faith? > Let us discuss pros and cons over this. Probably the same amount of > casualties (after Partition) could have happened as a result of > disagreement, but they are for time being (i.e., once and for all) only. > There should not be any troubles, whatever the country (I MEAN INDIA AS A > NATION) has been suffering and facing (since 60 years) from all directions. > > I would like to question MUSLIM LEAGUE ROLE over SUB-CONTINENT > INDEPENDENCE, their leaders' sacrifices as that of ... (as there are > in-numerous HINDU patriots, I could not mention just one or 2). It is clear > that Mr. JINNAH AND HIS PUPPETS with cunning BRITISH BACK ENJOYED/ENTHRALLED > the POWER and LAND freely. If 2 nation theory failed so utterly why was a > SEPARATE COUNTRY CALLED PAKISTAN IS STILL SURVIVING with OCCUPIED, GIFTED > INDIAN TERRITORIES TO CHINA? > > --Coming back to late Mr. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, > > 1) HE DIDN'T HAIL FROM ANY DYNASTY. LIKE EVERY FATHER, HIS FATHER > SENT HIM TO LONDON FOR HIGHER STUDIES. THE RICHNESS COMES FROM HIS FATHERS' > THEN PROFESSION. AS HE WAS INTELLIGENT, HE FLOURISHED IN STUDIES AND IN > POLITICS AS WELL. WHAT WE believe > > a) LATE Mr. NEHRU WAS CHEATED BY EVERYBODY (BRITISH, FRIENDS, > SECULARISTS, INTELLECTUALS AND THEN CHINA) like India WAS CHEATED AND ROBBED > BY INVADERS. How? > > > As a CASTE RIDDEN INDIAN SOCIETY (WHY RACISM WAS IS SO POPULAR IN > WESTERN WORLD. Where does it come from? ARE THEY JUST STEAL it from India > after invasions like anything? Why did they fail to eradicate it?) AND > NOBODY WILLING TO LOOSE THEIR CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS, > > Why late Mr. NEHRU was chosen/influenced to give away his daughter, > INDIRAPRIYADARSINI to a PARSI BRIDEGROOM? Is Mr.M.K.GANDHI or Mr.JINNAHfeared to do so (As both were having sons and daughters)? What was then > SOCIETY (INTELLECTUAL OR ORDINARY) silent and play a spectators role over > this? > > --Finally What Mr. Nehru did to whom? > > Entire India starting from school going kids to 110 year old know about > his vision, his plans and his burning desire for the Country AND ITS > DEVELOPMENT. If we talk about the world starting from CHINA to the country > that ANY BODY mention, The universe know and if they have conscious they > remember HIM and pray with FOLDED HANDS. > > I hope none of you feel, contradict and murmur if I quote, > Too err is human, and what if late Mr. Nehru err in few cases if any > (anybody point or feel) after all Mr. Nehru too a human. Late Mr. Nehru > ruled INDIA as per the constitution written under the stewardship of Mr. > Ambedkar in a better way as that of any body all times. (Of course > Indirapriyadarsini as well). > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Hi, all. > > All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand gandhi was > as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India which did not > include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji Subhash was > popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian national > Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High Command " then chose > Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. > > Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, > reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus Pakistan was > born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, WHICH > SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND MUSLIMS, > SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER OR POSITION > lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE prime minister HIMSELF. > His greed for position and favour and nepotism and dynastical fervour is > seen in free India. > Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the Rajeevs and > Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good human, with > good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, selfish, never > cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. > Regards.. > From: we wi > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > To: Partha Dasgupta > , Pawan Durani > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Partha, > > > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > > note the difference in everything. > > > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I > > just follow > > >>>what I believe is right. > > > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > > to say this. > > > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > > breed hate and > > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > > believing anything. > > > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > > or profess to > > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > > list except my cousin > > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > > what of me. > > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > > engaging in a > > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > Pawan, > > > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > > followwhat I believe is right. > > > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > > hate and > > more violence and > > can not be a solution. > > > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > > that is > > 'AsitRed'). However, > > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a block > > without > > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > > profess to > > here is not > > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > > cousinwho > > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what of me. > > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > > in a > > debate when > > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is - > > are you > > proposing that > > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > > violence - > > because that is > > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > > pointof the debate. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ..................... > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > > you to > > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > > the bunch, > > > maintain double standards. > > > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth against > > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be ready at the > > start up line > > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that the only > > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle - > > just more > > > > death and hate. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ................... > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > > Yasine> > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > > Yasin Malik a > > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > > understand is your > > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > > violence. One of the > > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > > considered it > > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > > something all > > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > > If it > > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then I would > > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > > organiser of > > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > > his feet > > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > > of mind > > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > > where he > > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic 114 day > > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! Search. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 10:16:24 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:16:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinese intellectuals respond to Tibet Message-ID: On Saturday 22 March some 30 Chinese intellectuals (most are Han Chinese) circulated a statement on the unrest in Tibet. Below is the text of their open letter to Chinese government. Twelve Suggestions for Dealing with the Tibetan Situation by Some Chinese Intellectuals 1. At present the one-sided propaganda of the official Chinese media is having the effect of stirring up inter-ethnic animosity and aggravating an already tense situation. This is extremely detrimental to the long-term goal of safeguarding national unity. We call for such propaganda to be stopped. 2. We support the Dalai Lama’s appeal for peace, and hope that the ethnic conflict can be dealt with according to the principles of goodwill, peace, and non-violence. We condemn any violent act against innocent people, strongly urge the Chinese government to stop the violent suppression, and appeal to the Tibetan people likewise not to engage in violent activities. 3. The Chinese government claims that “there is sufficient evidence to prove this incident was organized, premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated by the Dalai clique.” We hope that the government will show proof of this. In order to change the international community’s negative view and distrustful attitude, we also suggest that the government invite the United Nation’s Commission on Human Rights to carry out an independent investigation of the evidence, the course of the incident, the number of casualties, etc. 4. In our opinion, such Cultural-Revolution-like language as “the Dalai Lama is a jackal in Buddhist monk’s robes and an evil spirit with a human face and the heart of a beast” used by the Chinese Communist Party leadership in the Tibet Autonomous Region is of no help in easing the situation, nor is it beneficial to the Chinese government’s image. As the Chinese government is committed to integrating into the international community, we maintain that it should display a style of governing that conforms to the standards of modern civilization. 5. We note that on the very day when the violence erupted in Lhasa (March 14), the leaders of the Tibet Autonomous Region declared that “there is sufficient evidence to prove this incident was organized, premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated by the Dalai clique.” This shows that the authorities in Tibet knew in advance that the riot would occur, yet did nothing effective to prevent the incident from happening or escalating. If there was a dereliction of duty, a serious investigation must be carried out to determine this and deal with it accordingly. 6. If in the end it cannot be proved that this was an organized, premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated event but was instead a ‘popular revolt’ triggered by events, then the authorities should pursue those responsible for inciting the popular revolt and concocting false information to deceive the Central Government and the people; they should also seriously reflect on what can be learned from this event so as to avoid taking the same course in the future. 7. We strongly demand that the authorities not subject every Tibetan to political investigation or revenge. The trials of those who have been arrested must be carried out according to judicial procedures that are open, just, and transparent so as to ensure that all parties are satisfied. 8. We urge the Chinese government to allow credible national and international media to go into Tibetan areas to conduct independent interviews and news reports. In our view, the current news blockade cannot gain credit with the Chinese people or the international community, and is harmful to the credibility of the Chinese government. If the government grasps the true situation, it need not fear challenges. Only by adopting an open attitude can we turn around the international community‚s distrust of our government. 9. We appeal to the Chinese people and overseas Chinese to be calm and tolerant, and to reflect deeply on what is happening. Adopting a posture of aggressive nationalism will only invite antipathy from the international community and harm China’s international image. 10. The disturbances in Tibet in the 1980s were limited to Lhasa, whereas this time they have spread to many Tibetan areas. This deterioration indicates that there are serious mistakes in the work that has been done with regard to Tibet. The relevant government departments must conscientiously reflect upon this matter, examine their failures, and fundamentally change the failed nationality policies. 11. In order to prevent similar incidents from happening in future, the government must abide by the freedom of religious belief and the freedom of speech explicitly enshrined in the Chinese Constitution, thereby allowing the Tibetan people fully to express their grievances and hopes, and permitting citizens of all nationalities freely to criticize and make suggestions regarding the government’s nationality policies. 12. We hold that we must eliminate animosity and bring about national reconciliation, not continue to increase divisions between nationalities. A country that wishes to avoid the partition of its territory must first avoid divisions among its nationalities. Therefore, we appeal to the leaders of our country to hold direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama. We hope that the Chinese and Tibetan people will do away with the misunderstandings between them, develop their interactions with each other, and achieve unity. Government departments as much as popular organizations and religious figures should make great efforts toward this goal. Signatures: Wang Lixiong (Beijing, Writer) Liu Xiaobo (Beijing, Freelance Writer) Zhang Zuhua (Beijing, scholar of constitutionalism) Sha Yexin (Shanghai, writer, Chinese Muslim) Yu Haocheng (Beijing, jurist) Ding Zilin (Beijing, professor) Jiang peikun (Beijing, professor) Yu Jie (Beijing, writer) Sun Wenguang (Shangdong, professor) Ran Yunfei (Sichuan, editor, Tujia nationality) Pu Zhiqiang (Beijing, lawyer) Teng Biao (Beijing, Layer and scholar) Liao Yiwu ()Sichuan, writer) Wang Qisheng (Beijing, scholar) Zhang Xianling (Beijing, engineer) Xu Jue (Beijing, research fellow) Li Jun (Gansu, photographer) Gao Yu (Beijing, journalist) Wang Debang (Beijing, freelance writer) Zhao Dagong (Shenzhen, freelance writer) Jiang Danwen (Shanghai, writer) Liu Yi (Gansu, painter) Xu Hui (Beijing, writer) Wang Tiancheng (Beijing, scholar) Wen kejian (Hangzhou, freelance) Li Hai (Beijing, freelance writer) Tian Yongde (Inner Mongolia, folk human rights activists) Zan Aizong (Hangzhou, journalist) Liu Yiming (Hubei, freelance writer) Liu Di (Beijing, freelance writer) From amitabh at sarai.net Thu Mar 27 17:11:33 2008 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:11:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Performance of two stories by Sarnath Banerjee Message-ID: You are cordially invited to the performance of two stories by Sarnath Banerjee, along with comic book images and speech with the additional gimmick of sound. Please come in full strength with cousins and neighbours for a wholesome immersive experience, such as rarely seen since the Pupul Jayakar era. Colonel's Brain: Tragicomedy or comical tragedy of Dr LM Satpathy, head, department of forensics, Hamidia hospital and the wearer of the best tailored suit in Bhopal; who at the night of the Union Carbide gas tragedy conducted 200 autopsies to reveal the cause of death. Sadly, from the gas that was trapped in the lungs of the victims he himself got affected. Also, in the menu is L.M's museum of curiosities, objects of crime collected and catalogued over 30 years of his career. Tito Years: Is about the times when cross-continental air travel was as rare as finding a pair of nike shoes. When NRI relatives visited home with a controlled sense of entitlement and smelled different. And when they finally left the smell left with them, somewhere at the Palam airport. 29th March Saturday, 7:00 pm, Alliance Francaise From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 17:25:52 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:25:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinese intellectuals respond to Tibet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By way of verification, how, and why, did this statement reach you... On 27/03/2008, S. Jabbar wrote: > > On Saturday 22 March some 30 Chinese intellectuals (most are Han Chinese) > circulated a statement on the unrest in Tibet. > > Below is the text of their open letter to Chinese government. > > Twelve Suggestions for Dealing with the Tibetan Situation by Some Chinese > Intellectuals > > 1. At present the one-sided propaganda of the official Chinese media is > having the effect of stirring up inter-ethnic animosity and aggravating an > already tense situation. This is extremely detrimental to the long-term > goal > of safeguarding national unity. We call for such propaganda to be stopped. > > 2. We support the Dalai Lama's appeal for peace, and hope that the ethnic > conflict can be dealt with according to the principles of goodwill, peace, > and non-violence. We condemn any violent act against innocent people, > strongly urge the Chinese government to stop the violent suppression, and > appeal to the Tibetan people likewise not to engage in violent activities. > > 3. The Chinese government claims that "there is sufficient evidence to > prove > this incident was organized, premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated > by > the Dalai clique." We hope that the government will show proof of this. In > order to change the international community's negative view and > distrustful > attitude, we also suggest that the government invite the United Nation's > Commission on Human Rights to carry out an independent investigation of > the > evidence, the course of the incident, the number of casualties, etc. > > 4. In our opinion, such Cultural-Revolution-like language as "the Dalai > Lama > is a jackal in Buddhist monk's robes and an evil spirit with a human face > and the heart of a beast" used by the Chinese Communist Party leadership > in > the Tibet Autonomous Region is of no help in easing the situation, nor is > it > beneficial to the Chinese government's image. As the Chinese government is > committed to integrating into the international community, we maintain > that > it should display a style of governing that conforms to the standards of > modern civilization. > > 5. We note that on the very day when the violence erupted in Lhasa (March > 14), the leaders of the Tibet Autonomous Region declared that "there is > sufficient evidence to prove this incident was organized, premeditated, > and > meticulously orchestrated by the Dalai clique." This shows that the > authorities in Tibet knew in advance that the riot would occur, yet did > nothing effective to prevent the incident from happening or escalating. If > there was a dereliction of duty, a serious investigation must be carried > out > to determine this and deal with it accordingly. > > 6. If in the end it cannot be proved that this was an organized, > premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated event but was instead a > 'popular > revolt' triggered by events, then the authorities should pursue those > responsible for inciting the popular revolt and concocting false > information > to deceive the Central Government and the people; they should also > seriously > reflect on what can be learned from this event so as to avoid taking the > same course in the future. > > 7. We strongly demand that the authorities not subject every Tibetan to > political investigation or revenge. The trials of those who have been > arrested must be carried out according to judicial procedures that are > open, > just, and transparent so as to ensure that all parties are satisfied. > > 8. We urge the Chinese government to allow credible national and > international media to go into Tibetan areas to conduct independent > interviews and news reports. In our view, the current news blockade cannot > gain credit with the Chinese people or the international community, and is > harmful to the credibility of the Chinese government. If the government > grasps the true situation, it need not fear challenges. Only by adopting > an > open attitude can we turn around the international community‚s distrust of > our government. > > 9. We appeal to the Chinese people and overseas Chinese to be calm and > tolerant, and to reflect deeply on what is happening. Adopting a posture > of > aggressive nationalism will only invite antipathy from the international > community and harm China's international image. > > 10. The disturbances in Tibet in the 1980s were limited to Lhasa, whereas > this time they have spread to many Tibetan areas. This deterioration > indicates that there are serious mistakes in the work that has been done > with regard to Tibet. The relevant government departments must > conscientiously reflect upon this matter, examine their failures, and > fundamentally change the failed nationality policies. > > 11. In order to prevent similar incidents from happening in future, the > government must abide by the freedom of religious belief and the freedom > of > speech explicitly enshrined in the Chinese Constitution, thereby allowing > the Tibetan people fully to express their grievances and hopes, and > permitting citizens of all nationalities freely to criticize and make > suggestions regarding the government's nationality policies. > > 12. We hold that we must eliminate animosity and bring about national > reconciliation, not continue to increase divisions between nationalities. > A > country that wishes to avoid the partition of its territory must first > avoid > divisions among its nationalities. Therefore, we appeal to the leaders of > our country to hold direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama. We hope that the > Chinese and Tibetan people will do away with the misunderstandings between > them, develop their interactions with each other, and achieve unity. > Government departments as much as popular organizations and religious > figures should make great efforts toward this goal. > > Signatures: > > Wang Lixiong (Beijing, Writer) > Liu Xiaobo (Beijing, Freelance Writer) > Zhang Zuhua (Beijing, scholar of constitutionalism) > Sha Yexin (Shanghai, writer, Chinese Muslim) > Yu Haocheng (Beijing, jurist) > Ding Zilin (Beijing, professor) > Jiang peikun (Beijing, professor) > Yu Jie (Beijing, writer) > Sun Wenguang (Shangdong, professor) > Ran Yunfei (Sichuan, editor, Tujia nationality) > Pu Zhiqiang (Beijing, lawyer) > Teng Biao (Beijing, Layer and scholar) > Liao Yiwu ()Sichuan, writer) > Wang Qisheng (Beijing, scholar) > Zhang Xianling (Beijing, engineer) > Xu Jue (Beijing, research fellow) > Li Jun (Gansu, photographer) > Gao Yu (Beijing, journalist) > Wang Debang (Beijing, freelance writer) > Zhao Dagong (Shenzhen, freelance writer) > Jiang Danwen (Shanghai, writer) > Liu Yi (Gansu, painter) > Xu Hui (Beijing, writer) > Wang Tiancheng (Beijing, scholar) > Wen kejian (Hangzhou, freelance) > Li Hai (Beijing, freelance writer) > Tian Yongde (Inner Mongolia, folk human rights activists) > Zan Aizong (Hangzhou, journalist) > Liu Yiming (Hubei, freelance writer) > Liu Di (Beijing, freelance writer) > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 18:24:58 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (sonia jabbar) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:24:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinese intellectuals respond to Tibet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reported in the international press a few days ago. Pl do a google search and you will find it. Why? Because I am interested in dialogue and not mere confrontation between pro-chinese and pro-Tibetan positions. On 3/27/08, mahmood farooqui wrote: > By way of verification, how, and why, did this statement reach you... > > > On 27/03/2008, S. Jabbar wrote: > > > > On Saturday 22 March some 30 Chinese intellectuals (most are Han Chinese) > > circulated a statement on the unrest in Tibet. > > > > Below is the text of their open letter to Chinese government. > > > > Twelve Suggestions for Dealing with the Tibetan Situation by Some Chinese > > Intellectuals > > > > 1. At present the one-sided propaganda of the official Chinese media is > > having the effect of stirring up inter-ethnic animosity and aggravating an > > already tense situation. This is extremely detrimental to the long-term > goal > > of safeguarding national unity. We call for such propaganda to be stopped. > > > > 2. We support the Dalai Lama's appeal for peace, and hope that the ethnic > > conflict can be dealt with according to the principles of goodwill, peace, > > and non-violence. We condemn any violent act against innocent people, > > strongly urge the Chinese government to stop the violent suppression, and > > appeal to the Tibetan people likewise not to engage in violent activities. > > > > 3. The Chinese government claims that "there is sufficient evidence to > prove > > this incident was organized, premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated > by > > the Dalai clique." We hope that the government will show proof of this. In > > order to change the international community's negative view and > distrustful > > attitude, we also suggest that the government invite the United Nation's > > Commission on Human Rights to carry out an independent investigation of > the > > evidence, the course of the incident, the number of casualties, etc. > > > > 4. In our opinion, such Cultural-Revolution-like language as "the Dalai > Lama > > is a jackal in Buddhist monk's robes and an evil spirit with a human face > > and the heart of a beast" used by the Chinese Communist Party leadership > in > > the Tibet Autonomous Region is of no help in easing the situation, nor is > it > > beneficial to the Chinese government's image. As the Chinese government is > > committed to integrating into the international community, we maintain > that > > it should display a style of governing that conforms to the standards of > > modern civilization. > > > > 5. We note that on the very day when the violence erupted in Lhasa (March > > 14), the leaders of the Tibet Autonomous Region declared that "there is > > sufficient evidence to prove this incident was organized, premeditated, > and > > meticulously orchestrated by the Dalai clique." This shows that the > > authorities in Tibet knew in advance that the riot would occur, yet did > > nothing effective to prevent the incident from happening or escalating. If > > there was a dereliction of duty, a serious investigation must be carried > out > > to determine this and deal with it accordingly. > > > > 6. If in the end it cannot be proved that this was an organized, > > premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated event but was instead a > 'popular > > revolt' triggered by events, then the authorities should pursue those > > responsible for inciting the popular revolt and concocting false > information > > to deceive the Central Government and the people; they should also > seriously > > reflect on what can be learned from this event so as to avoid taking the > > same course in the future. > > > > 7. We strongly demand that the authorities not subject every Tibetan to > > political investigation or revenge. The trials of those who have been > > arrested must be carried out according to judicial procedures that are > open, > > just, and transparent so as to ensure that all parties are satisfied. > > > > 8. We urge the Chinese government to allow credible national and > > international media to go into Tibetan areas to conduct independent > > interviews and news reports. In our view, the current news blockade cannot > > gain credit with the Chinese people or the international community, and is > > harmful to the credibility of the Chinese government. If the government > > grasps the true situation, it need not fear challenges. Only by adopting > an > > open attitude can we turn around the international community‚s distrust of > > our government. > > > > 9. We appeal to the Chinese people and overseas Chinese to be calm and > > tolerant, and to reflect deeply on what is happening. Adopting a posture > of > > aggressive nationalism will only invite antipathy from the international > > community and harm China's international image. > > > > 10. The disturbances in Tibet in the 1980s were limited to Lhasa, whereas > > this time they have spread to many Tibetan areas. This deterioration > > indicates that there are serious mistakes in the work that has been done > > with regard to Tibet. The relevant government departments must > > conscientiously reflect upon this matter, examine their failures, and > > fundamentally change the failed nationality policies. > > > > 11. In order to prevent similar incidents from happening in future, the > > government must abide by the freedom of religious belief and the freedom > of > > speech explicitly enshrined in the Chinese Constitution, thereby allowing > > the Tibetan people fully to express their grievances and hopes, and > > permitting citizens of all nationalities freely to criticize and make > > suggestions regarding the government's nationality policies. > > > > 12. We hold that we must eliminate animosity and bring about national > > reconciliation, not continue to increase divisions between nationalities. > A > > country that wishes to avoid the partition of its territory must first > avoid > > divisions among its nationalities. Therefore, we appeal to the leaders of > > our country to hold direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama. We hope that the > > Chinese and Tibetan people will do away with the misunderstandings between > > them, develop their interactions with each other, and achieve unity. > > Government departments as much as popular organizations and religious > > figures should make great efforts toward this goal. > > > > Signatures: > > > > Wang Lixiong (Beijing, Writer) > > Liu Xiaobo (Beijing, Freelance Writer) > > Zhang Zuhua (Beijing, scholar of constitutionalism) > > Sha Yexin (Shanghai, writer, Chinese Muslim) > > Yu Haocheng (Beijing, jurist) > > Ding Zilin (Beijing, professor) > > Jiang peikun (Beijing, professor) > > Yu Jie (Beijing, writer) > > Sun Wenguang (Shangdong, professor) > > Ran Yunfei (Sichuan, editor, Tujia nationality) > > Pu Zhiqiang (Beijing, lawyer) > > Teng Biao (Beijing, Layer and scholar) > > Liao Yiwu ()Sichuan, writer) > > Wang Qisheng (Beijing, scholar) > > Zhang Xianling (Beijing, engineer) > > Xu Jue (Beijing, research fellow) > > Li Jun (Gansu, photographer) > > Gao Yu (Beijing, journalist) > > Wang Debang (Beijing, freelance writer) > > Zhao Dagong (Shenzhen, freelance writer) > > Jiang Danwen (Shanghai, writer) > > Liu Yi (Gansu, painter) > > Xu Hui (Beijing, writer) > > Wang Tiancheng (Beijing, scholar) > > Wen kejian (Hangzhou, freelance) > > Li Hai (Beijing, freelance writer) > > Tian Yongde (Inner Mongolia, folk human rights activists) > > Zan Aizong (Hangzhou, journalist) > > Liu Yiming (Hubei, freelance writer) > > Liu Di (Beijing, freelance writer) > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From oishiksircar at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:39:03 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:09:03 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Science and Development Network (SciDev.Net) South Asian Internship Message-ID: <62cba67a0803270909i69e0c0aalb90697603af34a71@mail.gmail.com> * Science and Development Network (SciDev.Net) South Asian Internship* The Science and Development Network (SciDev.Net) provides authoritative online news, opinion and analysis about the role of science and technology in addressing the economic and social needs of the developing world. SciDev.Net is seeking a dynamic and enthusiastic intern from the South Asian region for a three-month work experience placement. The internship will build news and feature writing skills, and provide a better understanding of how the internet can play a vital role in enhancing the process of science communication. In addition to daily tasks such as writing and researching news stories, the intern will learn about all aspects of how an online news website operates, including finding news stories, the editorial process, publishing and news dissemination. The internship will consist of two months based in SciDev.Net's London office and one month working with the SciDev.Net South Asia office in Delhi, or within the South Asian region. The intern will also have the opportunity to visit other relevant science communication organisations in both South Asia and the United Kingdom, and attend at least one training programme. *The internship will run from mid-June to mid-September 2008 for three months. SciDev.Net will cover travel and a stipend for living and accommodation costs for the three-month period.* *Candidate requirements* * A keen interest in science and technology, particularly relating to development; * A good level of written and spoken English * Experience of working with a national newspaper, magazine, radio, television, either as a reporter or on the desk * A background in science journalism is desirable but not essential. * Must be a native of South Asia and based in the region. * Must be available to take the internship in a three-month block between mid-June to mid-September 2008. Please note that the internship is a full-time commitment during this period. *Application procedure* To apply please send * a CV (in English), * two references, * two recent writing samples, * letter of support from your editor (desirable but not essential) * a 500 word statement explaining why you wish to be considered for this internship, * how you plan to utilise this internship in a national publication/broadcast agency The closing date for applications is *Friday, 4 April 2008* * Contact Details* Please email applications to internships at scidev.net -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From machleetank at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 22:22:47 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen P) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:52:47 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] BLANK NOISE THIS PLACE In-Reply-To: <277f58b70803240918t24b463adj31903fac7e4abd02@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70803240736g710196f9nd56da9fba4e9f042@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70803240918t24b463adj31903fac7e4abd02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello On behalf of Blank Noise , I invite for you to participate in our new project 'Blank Noise This Place' Blank Noise is built and based on people's testimonials. Taking this belief forward we invite you to engage with our new project- Blank Noise This Place. The site is a witness and your photograph is your testimonial. * * Blank Noise This Place will archive photographs that you send of public places and locations you have been sexually assaulted in any degree that you consider sexual harassment/ violence. To participate we ask you to revisit your site of violation with a camera. * (any camera will do- * *quality is not important as much as your act of revisiting and documenting). * Please email it to us at blurtblanknoise at gmail.com with an account of what occurred- what time-which country.city it took place in Please add in details such as your age and name Your contributions will be put on a world wide map that will specifically identify each participant's site of sexual assault. www.flickr.com/photos/blanknoisethisplace/map/ If you do not wish to have your name up- do tell us. You are further requested to get others involved. Introduce this idea to friends peers and all the women you know! In true spirit, cameras could be borrowed, shared, collective trips could be made to each person's site of violation. Organisations and groups are also invited to participate. We hope to hear from you. Let's Blank Noise This Place! For any queries and suggestions do email us at blurtblanknoise at gmail.com Blank Noise Team -- BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org mobile: 0091 98868 40612 Add a Blank Noise button to your blog ! Copy paste the code below- Blank Noise -- BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org mobile: 0091 98868 40612 Add a Blank Noise button to your blog ! Copy paste the code below- Blank Noise -- ph: + 91 98868 40612 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From chiarapassa at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 22:39:48 2008 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:09:48 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] CAC.2-Computer Art Congress 2008 Mexico City In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CAC.2-Computer Art Congress 2008 These are the artworks that constitue the exhibition of CAC.2: "Emerging forms of digital art". Please note there are several kind of artworks, some of them are exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art, Toluca City, some of them are Web-based and others are digital performances. Link: http://europia.org/CAC2/exhibition.html Audio-based * Josh Goldman, Language, USA, 2003. Hall of Museum. Computer stations * Ali Miharbi, Eigenrepresentante, Turkey, 2008. Hall of Museum. * Annabel Castro, 45 cartas a los Magnusson antes de la primavera�, Mexico, 2007. Hall of Museum. * Arnaud Hendrickx, Nopers, Belgium, 2000. Hall of Museum. * Marc Veyrat, minE∼i+)_mire, France, 2008. Hall of Museum. * Paul Magee, Everything, Poland, 2004. Hall of Museum. * Sandra Alvaro, En construcción, Spain, 2008. Hall of Museum. * Gianluca Mura, The Meta-plastic constructor, Italy, 2008. Hall of Museum. Installations * Alan Dunning & Paul Woodrow, Ghost 2008, Canada, 2008. Exhibition room 3. * Tania Fraga, Fragments, Brazil, 2007. Exhibition room 3. * Ian Ingram, Triptychle, USA, 2008. Exhibition room 3. * Semi Ryu, SAE-Gurimja: three shadows, USA, 2008. Auditorium of Museum. March 26th, 15 - 16 hrs. * Chun-chi Wang, Urban journal, France and Taiwan, 2008. ITESM Campus Estado de México, Hall of Theatre. Performances * Jack Stenner, Honeypumper, USA, 2008. Main hall of Museum. March 26th, 15 - 16 hrs. * Robyn Taylor, dream.Medusa, Canada, 2007. Auditorium of Museum. March 26th, 16 - 17 hrs. * René Reyes, Writing for myself, Mexico, 2008. Auditorium of Museum. March 26th, 17 - 17:30 hrs. Print * Jana Zufic. Gaia Fading, Croatia, 2007. Hall of Museum. * Luis Ricaurte. LooKumi, Mexico, 2007. Hall of Museum. * Chih-Ling Hsieh. Series of 10 diverse works, Taiwan, 2008. Hall of Museum. * Sally Larson. Thread and Carbon, Oil and Steel: No. 56, No. 19, No. 99., USA, 2007. Hall of Museum. * Can Henne. Cenote, Germany, 2006. Hall of Museum. * Murat Germen. untitled, brid6e / vicious circle, reconstruct #02, kanyon #03, Turkey, 2008. Hall of Museum. * Batya Kuncman. Connections, Possibilities, Preparations, Secret, USA, 2008. Hall of Museum. Second Life [special session: March 26th, 10:30 - 12:00 hrs. Island to be confirmed.] * Stephanie Rothenberg, School of Perpetual Training, USA, 2008. * Stephanie Rothenberg & Jeff Crouse, Invisible Threads: Virtual Sweatshop in Second Life, USA, 2008. * Eleonora Oreggia & Silvano Galliani. The ball in the hole, Italy and The Netherlands, 2008. Video-based * Michael Van den Abeele & Arnaud Hendrickx, Sphere1, Belgium, 1999. Exhibition Room 3. * Michael Van den Abeele, the Sausage Party #4, Belgium, 2008. Exhibition Room 3. * Michael Van den Abeele, Friends for Eternity, Belgium, 2005. Exhibition Room 3. * Daniel Bouillot, Slacknesses, France, 2006. Hall of Museum. * David Crawford, These People From Elsewhere, Sweden, 2008. Hall of Museum. * Dennis Summers, Filament, USA, 2008. Micro-Sala of Museum. * Zlatan Filipovic, Short review of contemporary history of art, United Arab Emirates, 2008. Hall of Museum. Web-based * Chiara Passa, Ideasonair, Italy, 2008. www.ideasonair.net * Walter Nelson, game, game, game and again game, Australia, 2008. www.secrettechnology.com/gamegame/gamegame.html * Blanka Earhart, Me, Myself and I, USA, 2008. -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador Skype: ideasonair _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Thu Mar 27 23:07:42 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:07:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: Performance by Inder Salim: "Mochi ki dukaan..." Message-ID: <47EBDB66.8030102@sarai.net> FWD: MOCHI KI DUKAN, KAMLESH KI RASOI ==================================== Dear friends, this about coming performance MOCHI KI DUKAN, KAMLESH KI RASOI ( cobbler's shop, Kamlesh's Rasoi ), in collaboration with Suraj and his family. on 28/03 2008, 7 pm onwards 14th Golf Links, Palette Art Gallery, new Delhi. Auction of art in support of Suraj and his family. you are requested to participate. it part of the on going Performance festival, Khoj 08, Please click my little blog to read and see in detail http://indersalim.livejournal.com with love and regards inder salim _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 14:05:41 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:05:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tibet solidarity Message-ID: > Please circulate widely: > > The Dalai Lama and lots of ordinary Tibetans will be visiting Rajghat tomorrow > (Sat. 29th March from 8 am to 9 am). You are welcome to join to express > solidarity with them. > > > Catch the Dalai Lama¹s interview on NDTV's Question Time India > with Prannoy Roy. > > This will be telecast in two parts: > > Part 1 on Friday April28th at 10 pm with a repeat on Saturday of the same Part > at 8 pm. > > Part II will air on Friday, April 4th at 10 pm and Saturday April 5th at 8 pm. > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Mar 28 14:57:10 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:27:10 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0803261523s47c2b8cdocd6bce1a2602f6f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.91443.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <48c2916d0803261523s47c2b8cdocd6bce1a2602f6f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, all, certain aspects of the facts are to be put in right perspective., particularly about the "great " Nehru, his father Motillal, no doubt was successful lawyer, but Jawahar was just mediocre after degree in law, whereas his sister Vijayalaxmi was brilliant, as lawyer and was well respected. Motillal Nehru sent his son Jawahar to appear for the ICS exams to Britain, not for barrister at law, which is only enroling oneself to the bar council under senior lawyer. Jawahar failed in ICS exam to the utter disappointment of his fathers' expectations, who had promised him to arrange "special train from Bombay to Allahabad to recieve him as ICS officer. Unlike Nethaji Subhash, IshwarChandra Vidya Sagar, who not only had passed with distinction, later Nethaji chose to resign ICS cadre, Nehru was rank bad in administration, thanks to his cronies likes of VK Krishna Menon, Mathai and few ghost writers for the speech, he was not so great as you all seem to imagine., for the followin g issues: 1. In 1945, after world was was over, british India, with its army rep, Surveyer General signed on the maps with drawn Mcmohan line, to be joinly surveyed latter to "agree upon" . Nehru chose in his 17 years of rule to ignore this issue to only dance with tribal costumes in NEFA, never once responded to the joint survey. 1962 after Nehrus' visit with "panchsheel" and non aligned meets, trusting his socialist left friends, he felt betrayed, and this was enough for the heart broken man to die in 1964 as he groomed his daughter as hostess in house leaving behind a heart broken son in law, Feroz, who was not only good leader, but a gentleman who took on Nehru in Insurance scandal of then FM, TTK, and FM had to resign later even though Nehru tried his best to shield him. 2. What Nehru could not do in seveteen years, his successor lal Bahadur Shastri did in SEVENTEEN months is a diferent aspect, with unplanned five year plans held hostage by the left, welcoming chinas aggression on indian soil, left never belong to any nation, they are opportunists in governance with false intellectual credentials as yours truely has seen upclose how dissent is treated in the party and cadres., democratic norms are non existent in left as politburo comrades are dictators of the cadres and dissent. 3. Nehru did take the help of Russia to corner Nethaji and the great leader that Nethaji was, never cared for power, in his words," when motherland is free, I will be a monk." All the probe reports that are gathering dusts be declassified and the nation will know the truth.Nethaji died much later as a monk, not as reported in air crash." The radhika rajen Trust" has enough material to prove the issue constrained only by non declassification of archives which are still treated as confidential and also the personal wish of that individual who had met with Nethaji as part of his mission in service along with many other missions for the nation as defence officer. Unlike others who write books and memoirs to put into jeopardy the lives of serving personnel, it is unfair to publicise prsonal memoirs as each nation has its share of personnel in different nations to do the national profession of espionage. Regards, ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:53 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition To: we wi Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Wi We, > > I think you would find the surrealist experiments of automatic > writing,where the actions of the hand are unhinged from those of > the mind, and > stream of consciousness prose very interesting. You seem to have > perfectedboth in the prose style you have adopted as your own. > Fascinating. > warmly > Aarti > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:56 PM, we wi wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > Though I am not a great personality to talk about HISTORY, PAST and > > interested as well, but If I ask a very basic question with mere > innocence> over this > > > > >>Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines > as all of > > us, reluctantly > > >>agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus > Pakistan was > > born as free India > > >>emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE NATION, > WHICH SAW THE > > >>SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND > MUSLIMS,> >>SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > > > What happen if late Mr.M.K.Gandhi disagrees for the > division of the > > nation on faith? > > Let us discuss pros and cons over this. Probably the same > amount of > > casualties (after Partition) could have happened as a result of > > disagreement, but they are for time being (i.e., once and for > all) only. > > There should not be any troubles, whatever the country (I MEAN > INDIA AS A > > NATION) has been suffering and facing (since 60 years) from all > directions.> > > I would like to question MUSLIM LEAGUE ROLE over SUB-CONTINENT > > INDEPENDENCE, their leaders' sacrifices as that of ... (as there are > > in-numerous HINDU patriots, I could not mention just one or 2). > It is clear > > that Mr. JINNAH AND HIS PUPPETS with cunning BRITISH BACK > ENJOYED/ENTHRALLED> the POWER and LAND freely. If 2 nation > theory failed so utterly why was a > > SEPARATE COUNTRY CALLED PAKISTAN IS STILL SURVIVING with > OCCUPIED, GIFTED > > INDIAN TERRITORIES TO CHINA? > > > > --Coming back to late Mr. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, > > > > 1) HE DIDN'T HAIL FROM ANY DYNASTY. LIKE EVERY FATHER, > HIS FATHER > > SENT HIM TO LONDON FOR HIGHER STUDIES. THE RICHNESS COMES FROM > HIS FATHERS' > > THEN PROFESSION. AS HE WAS INTELLIGENT, HE FLOURISHED IN > STUDIES AND IN > > POLITICS AS WELL. WHAT WE believe > > > > a) LATE Mr. NEHRU WAS CHEATED BY EVERYBODY (BRITISH, FRIENDS, > > SECULARISTS, INTELLECTUALS AND THEN CHINA) like India WAS > CHEATED AND ROBBED > > BY INVADERS. How? > > > > > > As a CASTE RIDDEN INDIAN SOCIETY (WHY RACISM WAS IS SO POPULAR IN > > WESTERN WORLD. Where does it come from? ARE THEY JUST STEAL it > from India > > after invasions like anything? Why did they fail to eradicate > it?) AND > > NOBODY WILLING TO LOOSE THEIR CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS, > > > > Why late Mr. NEHRU was chosen/influenced to give away his daughter, > > INDIRAPRIYADARSINI to a PARSI BRIDEGROOM? Is Mr.M.K.GANDHI or > Mr.JINNAHfeared to do so (As both were having sons and daughters)? > What was then > > SOCIETY (INTELLECTUAL OR ORDINARY) silent and play a spectators > role over > > this? > > > > --Finally What Mr. Nehru did to whom? > > > > Entire India starting from school going kids to 110 year old > know about > > his vision, his plans and his burning desire for the Country AND ITS > > DEVELOPMENT. If we talk about the world starting from CHINA to > the country > > that ANY BODY mention, The universe know and if they have > conscious they > > remember HIM and pray with FOLDED HANDS. > > > > I hope none of you feel, contradict and murmur if I quote, > > Too err is human, and what if late Mr. Nehru err in few cases > if any > > (anybody point or feel) after all Mr. Nehru too a human. Late > Mr. Nehru > > ruled INDIA as per the constitution written under the > stewardship of Mr. > > Ambedkar in a better way as that of any body all times. (Of course > > Indirapriyadarsini as well). > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Hi, all. > > > > All said and done, let us not forget that Mohandas Karamchand > gandhi was > > as human as all of us, and he had greater vision of free India > which did not > > include divided national boundaries on the faith, and Nethaji > Subhash was > > popularly elected president of then plenary session of Indian > national> Congress, in 1939, it is different matter that " High > Command " then chose > > Jawahar Nehru to be president., over the popular choice of nethaji. > > > > Secondly, Gandhiji, being human had human fault lines as all of us, > > reluctantly agreed for division of the nation on faith, thus > Pakistan was > > born as free India emerged, to a remark of nethaJI THAT IS THE > NATION, WHICH > > SAW THE SACRIFICES OF MILLIONS OF INDIANS BOTH FROM HINDUS AND > MUSLIMS,> SHOULD BE DIVIDED AS IF BOUNTY OF A LOOT. ? > > > > THIRDLY,GANDHIJI WAS IN FREE iNDIA NEVER ASPIRED FOR ANY POWER > OR POSITION > > lIKE NEHRU WHO WANTED TO SIDELINE EVERYBODY AND BE prime > minister HIMSELF. > > His greed for position and favour and nepotism and dynastical > fervour is > > seen in free India. > > Gandhiji never "helped" his progeny to be "leaders" like the > Rajeevs and > > Indiras of nehru dynasty All said and done, Gandhiji was good > human, with > > good morals and ethics unlike his betenoire, Nehru, debauch, > selfish, never > > cared for kashmiri displaced brothers. > > Regards.. > > From: we wi > > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:38 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > To: Partha Dasgupta > > , Pawan Durani > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Partha, > > > > > > Mahatma gandhi was in 1900 around and this is 2000. Kindly > > > note the difference in everything. > > > > > > >>>a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I > > > just follow > > > >>>what I believe is right. > > > > > > What if somebody or everybody feel wrong about that. Will you > > > reconsider it or still proceed in the same way. Whatever be the > > > case you must be either intellectual or an idiot. I really sorry > > > to say this. > > > > > > >>>b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only > > > breed hate and > > > >>>more violence and can not be a solution. > > > > > > "violence is the only solution for violence." > > > you should question both quarreling parties instead of asking > > > only one. Listen their answers understand them and then start > > > believing anything. > > > > > > >>>d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do > > > or profess to > > > >>>here is not to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this > > > list except my cousin > > > >>>who introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks > > > what of me. > > > >>>Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and > > > engaging in a > > > >>>debate when I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > > > What do your cousin feel about youself??? > > > > > > JAI HIND INDIA. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > Pawan, > > > > > > a) Never claimed to be a 'secularist', pseudo or otherwise. I just > > > followwhat I believe is right. > > > > > > b) I firmly believe that the cycle of violence will only breed > > > hate and > > > more violence and > > > can not be a solution. > > > > > > c) I have no idea what 'filth' you refer to about Asit (presume > > > that is > > > 'AsitRed'). However, > > > must admit that I rarely read what he writes as he writes in a > block> > without > > > punctuation or paras that I find impossible to comprehend. > > > > > > d) As for double standards and your dissapointment, what I do or > > > profess to > > > here is not > > > to make or lose friends. Don't know anyone on this list except my > > > cousinwho > > > introduced me, and really couldn't be bothered who thinks what > of me. > > > Am here for the sole purpose of knowing view points and engaging > > > in a > > > debate when > > > I find it interesting (and if I have the time). > > > > > > e) Why do you always by-pass the point in contention - that is > - > > > are you > > > proposing that > > > the solution to Yasin Malik and the violence in J&K is more > > > violence - > > > because that is > > > what is coming out from your responses and your avoiding the moot > > > pointof the debate. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ..................... > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Partha , > > > > > > > > Among many Pseudo secular over here , i still continued to trust > > > you to > > > > some extent. However I must admit that you too ,like others in > > > the bunch, > > > > maintain double standards. > > > > > > > > You had no words when the Asit ( Lal Salaam) , writes filth > against> > > Kashmiri Hindus , while as you always seem to be > ready at the > > > start up line > > > > of 100 mts once Kashmiri Muslim terrorists are discussed. > > > > > > > > Disappointed ! > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > That still doesn't answer the question: Do you think that > the only > > > > > response to violence should be violence? > > > > > > > > > > Because, if so, there will never be an end to the struggle > - > > > just more > > > > > death and hate. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > ................... > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And neither Have Kashmiri Hindus ever believed in Violence > > > ......But> > > again we have no love for a Psycopath killer like > > > Yasine> > > > > > > > > On 3/19/08, Partha Dasgupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you are not saying that because you consider > > > Yasin Malik a > > > > > > > "killer/terrorist" that the only language he will > > > understand is your > > > > > > > shooting / killing him in the same manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do try and remember that the nation of India achieved it's > > > freedom> > > > through Mahatma Gandhi who did NOT fight back with > > > violence. One of the > > > > > > > reasons he's considered the "Father of the Nation'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Pawan Durani < > > > > > > > pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what manner of protest would a killer /terrorist > > > understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just Curious ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/18/08, Partha Dasgupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about the feet licking part (always > > > considered it > > > > > > > > > unhygienic), > > > > > > > > > however, I do like the idea of peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do hope you don't disagree with the concept of peace > > > in J&K? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "piece of mind" bit - well, that's > > > something all > > > > > > > > > public figures > > > > > > > > > have to live with - some people agree and some don't. > > > If it > > > > > > > > > makes you > > > > > > > > > happier to see people fighting and shouting, then > I would > > > > > > > > > certainly disagree > > > > > > > > > in the manner of protest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > > > > > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > > > > > > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless Terrorist Yasin Malik of JKLF - The > > > organiser of > > > > > > > > > this session of > > > > > > > > > > brainwashing. May God as well bless people who lick > > > his feet > > > > > > > > > in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Your Information, Yasin was given a good piece > > > of mind > > > > > > > > > inside and > > > > > > > > > > outside the venue of the India Today Conclave 2008 > > > where he > > > > > > > > > was a guest > > > > > > > > > > speaker. For more information and pictures; visit: > > > > > > > > > > www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: FW: JKLF Historic Exhibition > > > > > > > > > > > To: sheba > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Binalakshmi Nepram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > > JKLF presents: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voices of Peace, Voices of Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > Photo and video exhibition of JKLFs Historic > 114 day > > > > > > > > > > > nonviolent march through the valley of Kashmir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: March 19,2008. > > > > > > > > > > > Time: 11 am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Venue: Indian Social Institute, > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Institutional Area > > > > > > > > > > > Lodi Road > > > > > > > > > > > New Delhi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maqbool Manzil,Maisooma,Srinagar, > > > > > > > > > > > Contact:2474882-2481844, > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklfkashmir.org > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jklf.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > header.> > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > header.> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > > Yahoo! Search. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Mar 28 16:35:25 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:05:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Voltaire on Character Message-ID: <994866.78160.qm@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> CHARACTER. [From the Greek word signifying Impression, Engraving.—It is what nature has engraved in us.] Can we change our character? Yes, if we change our body. A man born turbulent, violent, and inflexible, may, through falling in his old age into an apoplexy, become like a silly, weak, timid, puling child. His body is no longer the same, but so long as his nerves, his blood, and his marrow remain in the same state his disposition will not change any more than the instinct of a wolf or a polecat. The English author of “The Dispensary,” a poem much superior to the Italian “Capitoli,” and perhaps even to Boileau’s “Lutrin,” has, as it seems to me, well observed. How matter, by the varied shape of pores, Or idiots frames, or solemn senators. The character is formed of our ideas and our feelings. Now it is quite clear that we neither give ourselves feelings nor ideas, therefore our character cannot depend on ourselves. If it did so depend, every one would be perfect. We cannot give ourselves tastes, nor talents, why, then, should we give ourselves qualities? When we do not reflect we think we are masters of all: when we reflect we find that we are masters of nothing. If you would absolutely change a man’s character purge him with diluents till he is dead. Charles XII., in his illness on the way to Bender, was no longer the same man; he was as tractable as a child. If I have a wry nose and cat’s eyes I can hide them behind a mask, and can I do more with the character that nature has given me? A man born violent and passionate presents himself before Francis I., king of France, to complain of a trespass. The countenance of the prince, the respectful behavior of the courtiers, the very place he is in make a powerful impression upon this man. He mechanically casts down his eyes, his rude voice is softened, he presents his petition with humility, you would think him as mild as (at that moment at least) the courtiers appear to be, among whom he is often disconcerted, but if Francis I. knows anything of physiognomy, he will easily discover in his eye, though downcast, glistening with a sullen fire, in the extended muscles of his face, in his fast-closed lips, that this man is not so mild as he is forced to appear. The same man follows him to Pavia, is taken prisoner along with him and thrown into the same dungeon at Madrid. The majesty of Francis I. no longer awes him as before, he becomes familiar with the object of his reverence. One day, pulling on the king’s boots, and happening to pull them on ill, the king, soured by misfortune, grows angry, on which our man of courtesy wishes his majesty at the devil and throws his boots out the window. Sixtus V. was by nature petulant, obstinate, haughty, impetuous, vindictive, arrogant. This character, however, seems to have been softened by the trials of his novitiate. But see him beginning to acquire some influence in his order; he flies into a passion against a guardian and knocks him down. Behold him an inquisitor at Venice, he exercises his office with insolence. Behold him cardinal; he is possessed della rabbia papale; this rage triumphs over his natural propensities; he buries his person and his character in obscurity and counterfeits humility and infirmity. He is elected pope, and the spring which policy had held back now acts with all the force of its long-restrained elasticity; he is the proudest and most despotic of sovereigns. Naturam expellas furea, tamen usque recurret. Howe’er expelled, nature will still return. Religion and morality curb the strength of the disposition, but they cannot destroy it. The drunkard in a cloister, reduced to a quarter of a pint of cider each meal will never more get drunk, but he will always be fond of wine. Age weakens the character; it is as an old tree producing only a few degenerate fruits, but always of the same nature, which is covered with knots and moss and becomes worm-eaten, but is ever the same, whether oak or pear tree. If we could change our character we could give ourselves one and become the master of nature. Can we give ourselves anything? do not we receive everything? To strive to animate the indolent man with persevering activity, to freeze with apathy the boiling blood of the impetuous, to inspire a taste for poetry into him who has neither taste nor ear were as futile as to attempt to give sight to one born blind. We perfect, we ameliorate, we conceal what nature has placed in us, but we place nothing there ourselves. An agriculturist is told: “You have too many fish in this pond; they will not thrive, here are too many cattle in your meadows; they will want grass and grow lean.” After this exhortation the pikes come and eat one-half this man’s carps, the wolves one-half of his sheep, and the rest fatten. And will you applaud his economy? This countryman is yourself; one of your passions devours the rest and you think you have gained a triumph. Do we not almost all resemble the old general of ninety, who, having found some young officers behaving in a rather disorderly manner with some young women, said to them in anger: “Gentlemen, is this the example that I set you?” _____________ 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 16:44:53 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:14:53 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fortress of Solitude Message-ID: This is a light-weight polemic against the security-state-ification of all aspects of Dhaka life. It was meant to go into the issues in more depth, but I was assured by the assistant editor of DS that any further and he wouldn't be able to print it (an equally light op-ed on Benazir: "Not the People's Princess" was held up for 3 months over one mention of ISI/Army). So it ended up being a milque-toast piece for the political purposes of getting published and starting the debate. Even with the super mild nature of the piece, DS made following edits (without informing me, but that's standard practice it seems): 1. "the smell of cat shit" (the interior is abandoned and taken over by nature's foragers) became "the smell of cat excrement" and finally the little-house-on-the-prairie "musty smell" 2. The last line "All in the name of security." became "All in the name of what?" DS having started self-censorship after 1/11/07 now has no path to reinvent backbone. Local critics invert the venerable newspaper's fifteen-year old famous slogan and call it "Journalism with fear and favor" ####################################### http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=29386 DAILY STAR Friday, March 28, 2008 09:30 AM GMT+06:00 Fortress of solitude Naeem Mohaiemen THE man wakes in an unfamiliar city. It is hot, sweaty and only seven in the morning. Curse this heat, this infernal heat! Cycle bells, footsteps and strange sounds seep in. The visitor's guides arrive, it is time. He is blindfolded, and the two set out in a car. Soon they are standing on a grand lawn. Wet dew seeps through his sneakers. The guide, a Bengali architect, takes the blindfold off. Blinking into the sunlight, the visitor stares at a castle of lines and stone, rising out of a moat of crisscrossing canals. He stares for a long moment. Slowly, quietly, he begins to cry. The visitor is Nathaniel Kahn, and the building is the Shangshad Bhaban -- centerpiece of Louis Kahn's National Capital Complex in Dhaka. The intense preparation for this moment of communion is behind the scenes. The story of the blindfold, put on by a local architect, came out in a later interview: "I said, look I want to see this thing the right way. I don't want to see it in an accidental way." The viewer who comes to the film My Architect meets Louis Kahn through his physical sculptures. The sunlight streaming through Kimbell Museum roof, the grand geometry of Exeter's library, the unfinished designs for a Holocaust memorial, the dewy mornings that surround Shangdhad Bhaban -- all are rendered with a quiet, unblinking precision. Kahn's mission was to instill the monumentality and mystery of the classics into architecture, replacing the cold functionality of the steel-and-glass era. In his structures, the materials were simple, often limited to brick and concrete. In his quest for spirituality, he would engage the raw material itself in the dialogue. The interplay of light with material was the base element that could create a changing building-- one that moved forward with time and vantage point. "I knew that when I was in Dhaka the film was over." There in front of the Shangshad Bhaban, Nathaniel discovers his father in the lines and cavernous spaces. Even in the midst of brutal warfare in 1971, Louis Kahn continued work on this project. "When the war was on, everybody said stop working, because we don't know what's going to happen, we don't know if there is going to be a government after this, and you're not being paid." His response was: when there is peace again, they will need this building. When I first reviewed My Architect four years ago, I wrote: "Not only is it home to Bangladesh's parliament, its central, vast green grounds act as an oasis in the middle of a poorly planned, congested, third-world mega-city." Speaking of its multiple uses, Nathaniel said: "Everybody has a story about meeting a friend on the plaza, playing a game on the lawn, being a child on the lawn, walking around the Crescent Lake, exploring the area that the streets go past the hostels." But Nathaniel was extraordinarily lucky with the timing of his film. A few years later and he would have filmed his finale in a lonely fortress, empty of people, life or meaning. His last low angle shot would take in a wire fence, past the legs of guards, sentries, paramilitary and police. There would be no civilians in a single frame (certainly not the exuberant "Dhaka morning walker's club" of the film). Since 2006, the building has been dying, fatally surrounded by fences. The cage of national security, the only framing device left for Kahn. Two weeks ago, a group of German architects came to visit Dhaka. Armed with university letters, ministry permissions, VIP phone calls, they were allowed access to the inside grounds. I called up one member and asked if my friend could join them. She has never been inside, you see. "I don't think we can manage that, they have taken photocopies of everyone's passport." "But she's Bengali." It seems the officials didn't care. My Bengali friend stayed behind. Later, they met us for dinner. We who could only imagine the interior had to depend on these visitors for a second-hand look. Wide-eyed stories of soaring beauty. But also sadness at a crumbling interior, absence of light, eerie stillness, sleeping cleaners, the musty smell. It has come to this. The only way I can enter the Shangshad is to come with foreign friends. The rest of you: go home, go home. Wanting to take a morning walk, do adda with old friends, eat chinabadam, hold hands with your partner, take in the fresh air, gaze into the open space, the vision of stone, the beginning of life. Not now, not here. Your city is dying, finally. Architect Dorothee Riedle wrote to me in an email: "I started to wonder what this security fuss is all about. What can be the reason for sealing off the building for the last few years? Maybe I am too foreign to understand? It is very hard to understand why a government would want to keep people from enjoying their nationality around their parliament building in this desperately needed green and open space. It deprives the building and what it stands for of much of its qualities. Writing all this I started to wonder how easy it would be to get access to the German Reichstag. According to their web-page, it is really easy. It is possible to take part in guided tours through the house daily, to apply for a visitors seat for the hearings, etc." In My Architect a young boy stares up at the Shangshad Bhaban, and is reflected into the water. He expresses the sense of wonder we drink in at journey's end. Someone, somewhere has choked the joy out of that scene. In the name of what? Naeem Mohaiemen (naeem.mohaiemen@ gmail.com) works on art & technology projects. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 23:31:18 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:31:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dutch Anti-Islam Movie FITNA released online Message-ID: <6353c690803281101t11001a6m8b545ab96fa7869a@mail.gmail.com> Fitna Released Online Michael C. Moynihan | March 28, 2008, 1:10pm I'm not sure if there's some *fatwa* against embedding videos, but watch and decide for yourself: http://reason.com/blog/show/125743.html Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com From arshad.mcrc at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 07:23:39 2008 From: arshad.mcrc at gmail.com (arshad amanullah) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:23:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A national seminar on the Madrasa Reform by Ark Foundation Message-ID: <2076f31d0803281853ib84191an1733d097bace0de6@mail.gmail.com> A National Seminar On "MADRASAS AND EDUCATIONAL NEEDS OF THE INDIAN MUSLIMS" Organised By Ark Foundation With Support From National University of Educational Planning and Administration (NUEPA) On Saturday 29th & Sunday 30th March, 2008 Timings: 9:00am- 05:30pm Venue: Arts and Aesthetics Auditorium, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Programme SESSION –I: 09:00 – 10:00 AM INAUGURATION Chief Guest: Dr. Karimi Najfi, Cultural Councilor, Islamic Republic of Iran, New Delhi Chair: Prof. Basir Ahmad Khan, PVC, IGNOU, New Delhi Welcome Note: JNU, New Delhi Presentation: "Evolution of Madrasa Education System in India" by Ark Research Team Prof. Shahid Mahdi: Prof. Shahid Mahdi, Deputy Chairperson, ICCR, New Delhi Vote of Thanks: NUEPA, New Delhi ------------Tea Break: 10:00 AM -10:30 AM--------- SESSION –II: 10:30 AM- 1:00 PM Theme: SCOPE AND RELEVANCE OF MADRASA REFORM Chair: Prof. M .H. Qureshi, JNU, New Delhi Presentations – Prof. Imtiyaz Ahmad: The State, the Madrasa and the Need for Reform Maulana Saud Alam Qasmi:Need for Introduction of Modern Education in Madrasa Dr. Yogender Sikand: Relevance of Reform in Madrasa Education System in Present Socio-Economic Context Dr Ishtiaq Danish: Reforms in Madrasa Education System: Problems and Prospects -------Lunch Break: 1: 00 PM - 2: 00 PM----------- SESSION –III: 2:00 PM- 3:30 PM Theme: MODERNIZATION OF MADRASAS: STATE & OTHER AGENCIES' INTERVENTION Chair & Discussant:Dr. S. Irfan Habib, NISTADS, Delhi Presentations: Justice M.S. A. Siddique: Government Initiatives to Modernize Madrasa Education System & to Central Madrasa Board. Prof. Basir Ahmad Khan: IGNOU's Initiatives to Promote Modern Education In Most Backward Areas & Offering of Professional Courses to Madrasa Graduates. Dr. Nirja Shukla:NCERT's Initiatives Towards Modernization of Madrasa Education System Deepika:Jan Vikas and Jamiat-Ulama-I-Hind's Experiment in Gujarat Daya Ram:The Agha Khan Foundation Initiatives ------------Tea Break: 03:30 PM -03:45 PM--------- SESSION –IV: 3:45 PM – 5:30 PM Theme: EXPERIMENTS WITH REFORMS WITHIN MADRASA INSTITUTIONS: VOICES FROM THE GROUND Chair: Dr. Yogender Sikand, Expert and Freelance Writer Presentations: Dr. Roger Jeffery: Need to Update Madrasa Curriculum: The Bijnor Experience Maulana Haziq: Experiments in Higher Islamic Education Maulana Fazlur Rahim Mojaddidi: Combining Religious and Technical Education: A Cases Study of Jamiatul Hidaya Jaipur Qasim Rasool Falahi: Experiences and Challenges in Educating Isolated Communities Qazi Shirajudin: Experiments in the Mewaat Region Zubair Hudwai: Participatory approach of Ulama in Madrasa reform: Kerala experience Day -2 SESSION –V: 9:00 AM – 11:00 AM Theme: EXPLORING UNIFORMITY IN THE MADRASA EDUCATION & CURRICULUM CHANGES Chair: Prof. Akhtar Mahdi, JNU, New Delhi Presentations: Prof. Aktharul Wasey: Relevance and scope of uniformity in Madrasa Education & Curriculum Changes in Present Socio-Economic Context Maulana Salman Nadvi: Hamara Talimi Nisab Kaisa Ho?: In Search of a New Curriculum Dr Mohmad Arshad: Major Trends in Madrasa Education and possibility of Reform Arshad Alam: Understanding Madrasa Curriculum in The Present Time Dr. Fauzan Ahmad: Madrasa Curriculum: An Overview ------------Tea Break: 11:00 AM – 11:15 AM--------- SESSION –VI: 11:15 AM – 01:00 PM Theme: MEDIA AND REFORM IN MADRASA EDUCATION SYSTEM Chair: Nilofar Sohrawardi, Freelance Journalist Presentations: Zafar Agha: What & Why of Madrasa Reform and Indifference Of Media Waris Mazhari: The Recent Deoband Conclave On Terrorism And Its Echo In The Media Arshad Amanullah: The Madrasa Media: What Ails Them? ------------Lunch Break: 01:00 PM – 2:00 AM--------- NATIONAL CONSULTATION On MADRASA EDUCATION SYSTEM: TOWARDS DRAFTING A ROADMAP FOR REFORM 2:00 PM – 5:30 PM Chair: Dr. Ali Jawed, Director, NCPUL, New Delhi Agenda: i. Recommendations of the Seminar ii. A New Syllabus for Madrasa Education System iii. Identifying Problems and Setting Goals iv. A Time-bound Action Plan v. Any other issue related to the development of Roadmap Discussant:Dr. Rizwan Qaiser, Associate Professor, JMI, New Delhi Concluding Remark:Dr. Shakeel Ahmad Khan, Director General, NYKS, New Delhi Vote of Thanks: Dr. Shaheen Ansari, Chairman, Ark Foundation, New Delhi. For detailas, contact:Sneha (09868086702), Ifat (9868512776), Farfat (09212759122), Ather (09810939748) & Arshad Amanullah (09911194488) From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 13:31:24 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:31:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dutch Anti-Islam Movie FITNA released online In-Reply-To: <6353c690803281101t11001a6m8b545ab96fa7869a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803281101t11001a6m8b545ab96fa7869a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Very sadly it has been removed. I would have been very interested to see what a staunch critic of Islam makes of it, although I know that practitioners rarely like critical critics...Researchers may have a different opinion though. On 28/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Fitna Released Online > Michael C. Moynihan | March > 28, > 2008, 1:10pm > > > I'm not sure if there's some *fatwa* against embedding videos, but watch > and > decide for yourself: > > http://reason.com/blog/show/125743.html > > > > Thanks > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat Mar 29 14:48:45 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 14:18:45 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Dutch Anti-Islam Movie FITNA released online In-Reply-To: <6353c690803281101t11001a6m8b545ab96fa7869a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803281101t11001a6m8b545ab96fa7869a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3584950F-BE01-4252-98CC-74F6FA8D04ED@sarai.net> Do check the following link http://www.mediamatic.net/article-33851-en.html " There is this not-so-intelligent Dutch politician that attracts attention by doing populist provocations. His name is Wilders. Geert Wilders. He is scared of aliens and especially of muslim aliens. He attracts votes of people that are scared of Islam too. To get more votes, he tries to scare more people. And now he's suggesting to release a movie called “Fitna” that's radically critical towards islam. This hits an open nerve in Dutch media of course. We all remember how our favourite asshole cinematographer Theo was slaughtered like a pig in the street after making “Submission” with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Only by implication, this artificially blonde embarrassment claims death defying heroism! It is sooo embarrassing to be Dutch some times. I’m sorry. So here's what we do: We all make our own “Fitna” movies. As many as possible. (see also: Fitna.nu" best jeebesh On 28-Mar-08, at 11:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Fitna From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Mar 29 14:45:31 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 14:45:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinese intellectuals respond to Tibet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22D44E13-182D-45BD-97EF-E9798258778B@sarai.net> Thank you, Sonia for your postings on Tibet, especially the post forwarding the letter by 39 Chinese intellectuals critiquing the Chinese state's handling of Tibet, (and Jeebesh for your earlier posting about Chinese intellectual life). Incidentally, since Mahmood had asked about a source for this posting I found it posted first at a very useful and interesting website called Chinese Human Rights Defenders - http://crd-net.org/ which has links to many interesting posts. The specific link to this statement about Tibet is at - http://crd-net.org/Article/Class9/ Class10/200803/20080322224710_8160.html Clearly, the situation in Tibet is causing a great deal of reflection within China itself. The efforts by the Chinese state to act as if all Han Chinese were complicit in the continuing tragedy of Tibet are far from the truth. Dissident Intellectuals like Wei Jingsheng and Cao Changching (currently in exile) have for long spoken in a distinctly different language from the hegemonic pronouncements of the Chinese state and Communist Party regarding Tibet. Another useful link to know more about 'different' Chinese perceptions of Tibet is at - http://www.tibet.com/China/index.html Finally, I wanted to share with all of you another interesting posting I found on the Chinese Human Rights Defenders site - it is a petition (customarily numercially titled, I really like the way in which Chinese political culture does things 'by numbers') titled - ' “One World, One Dream” and Universal Human Rights - Prominent Chinese citizens propose seven changes for upholding Olympic principles' . This was posted on August 7, 2007 and has gathered many signatures (see the diversity of people listed as signatories below). The English text of the letter is at http://crd-net.org/Article/Class9/ class97/200709/20070920050059_5310.html -------- Here is an introductory text to the letter - at the CRD-net.org website ---------- (Chinese Human Rights Defenders, August 7, 2007) – At the start of the one-year count-down to the 2008 Beijing Olympics, prominent Chinese citizens and leading public intellectuals in China signed an open letter “One World, One Dream: and Universal Human Rights.” The letter is addressed to Chinese leaders and leaders in the concerned international community, proposing seven measures to end human rights violations surrounding the preparations for the Olympics and calling for amnesty of prisoners of conscience. Chinese Human Rights Defenders stands with those who signed the letter, supporting their position on the Beijing Olympics and the seven proposals. Jacques Rogge, Chair of the International Olympic Committee, is in Beijing to attend a two-day ceremony to mark the one-year count- down. Beijing police has intensified “clean-up” operations, rounding up petitioners and putting some activists under close watch. More than forty people signed the Open Letter, including Dai Qing, the well-known writer/journalist, Bao Tong, a former top aid to Zhao Ziyang, the reformist former Chinese leader, Ding Zilin, who has led the Tiananmen Mothers movement, and Liu Xiaobo, the famous dissident writer. The letter is open for endorsement by any Chinese citizens and members of the international community. --------- And here is the text of the letter itself. It is a useful model to think about in terms of the forthcoming Commonwealth Games tamasha to be held in Delhi. ---------- “One World, One Dream” and Universal Human Rights An Open Letter to Chinese and World Leaders on the 2008 Beijing Olympics Hu Jintao, President, People’s Republic of China Wu Bangguo, Chair, Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress of China Wen Jiabao, Premier of the State Council of China Jacques Rogge, Chair, International Olympic Committee Doru Romulus Costea, President, United Nations Human Rights Council Louise Arbour, High Commissioner, United Nations Office for Human Rights Leaders of democratic states concerned about promoting freedom and human rights International NGOs concerned with human rights Members of the communities of sports, arts and entertainment, academe, and business around the world Respected Leaders and Fellow World Citizens: Upholding the fundamental principles of the Olympic spirit, including “respect for universal fundamental ethical principles” and “the harmonious development of man, with a view to promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity” (Olympic Charter, Preamble); Taking note of the Chinese government’s official 2008 Olympic theme “One World, One Dream” and the Beijing Olympic Committee’s stated objectives of hosting an “Open, Green, and Humane Olympics”; and Mindful of the growing number of questions and criticisms in our own society and from around the world about the violations of the human rights of Chinese citizens in the name of the Beijing Olympics; We, the undersigned citizens of the People’s Republic of China, here voice our concerns and to propose changes in the ways in which our government is handling its preparations for the Olympics. Today, August 8, 2007, marks the start of the one-year count-down to the 2008 Summer Olympics, a mega-event for China and the world. We, as citizens of the People’s Republic of China, ought to be feeling pride in our country’s glory in hosting the Games, whose purposes include the symbolization of peace, friendship, and fairness in the world community. We also ought to feel uplifted by the watchword chosen by the Beijing Olympic Committee: “One World, One Dream.” Instead we feel disappointment and doubt as we witness the continuing systematic denial of the human rights of our fellow citizens even while--and sometimes because--Olympic preparations are moving forward. We hear “One World” and wonder: What kind of world will this be? “One Dream”? Whose dream is it that is coming true? We are gravely concerned about the question of whether authorities in our country can successfully host the Olympic Games in an authentic Olympic spirit so that the 2008 Beijing games can become an event of which China and the world community can be proud. As the one world that we share “globalizes,” lives and dreams are becoming increasingly intertwined. One person’s “world dream,” especially if it is implemented with unchecked power, and with endorsement from the world community, can turn into misery and nightmare for others. “One world” can still be a world where people suffer discrimination, political and religious persecution, and deprivation of liberty, as well as poverty, genocide, and war. Millions of people who survived such miseries and disasters in the 20th century have come to appreciate, and to pursue, human rights. Universal human rights have become the bedrock concept in pursuing lasting peace, sustainable development, and justice. If “one dream” is truly to belong to all cultures and communities, it must involve protection of basic rights and liberties for all. Even the powerful, the rich and privileged might be punished unjustly tomorrow if fundamental rights are not assured today. The government that rules our country has pledged to the Chinese people and to the world to protect human rights. It has acceded to obligations under numerous international human rights conventions and treaties, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and it has amended the Chinese Constitution to include guarantees of human rights. In order to avoid misunderstanding, and in order to alert the international community to un-Olympic conduct that tarnishes the true spirit of the Games, we, the undersigned citizens of the People’s Republic of China, endorse the government’s Olympic slogan with the following vital addition: “One World, One Dream, and Universal Human Rights.” Without promoting human rights, which are the fundamental principle of universal ethics in China and elsewhere, it is gratuitous to promote “One World.” Without the protection of the human rights of all Chinese citizens equally--i.e., without abolition of the rural- urban residential control system, without an end to discrimination against women and sexual, ethnic, and faith minorities, and without ending the suppression of political dissent--it is senseless to talk about “One Dream” for all of China. China’s government has promised the International Olympic Committee to “promote human rights” and has pledged to the United Nations Human Rights Council to “uphold the highest standard of human rights.” On paper it has taken certain steps toward improving human rights--in 2003, for example, abolishing the arbitrary detention system known as “Custody and Repatriation” and in 2004 adding “human rights protection” as an amendment to China’s Constitution. We believe that the government should be able to do much more. Little has been done, in practice, to carry out the promises that have been made on paper. On the contrary we have experienced and witnessed violations of human rights many times--in press censorship and control of the Internet, in the persecution of human rights defenders and of people who expose environmental or public health disasters, in the exploitation of poor or disadvantaged social groups and in retaliation against them when they protest, and even in abuses by corrupt officials who are involved in the construction of Olympic facilities and city beautification projects that are aimed to prepare for the Olympics. All of these actions violate not only international standards but provisions of the Chinese constitution as well. We find no consolation or comfort in the rise of grandiose sports facilities, or a temporarily beautified Beijing city, or the prospect of Chinese athletes winning medals. We know too well how these glories are built on the ruins of the lives of ordinary people, on the forced removal of urban migrants, and on the sufferings of victims of brutal land grabbing, forced eviction, exploitation of labor, and arbitrary detention. Out of deep affection for our motherland and our sense of duty as citizens of the world, we will do our best, and urge leaders in China and in the world community to join hands with us, to make the Beijing Olympics a turning point in China’s rise to greatness. China has the opportunity to use the Games to build true harmony on the basis of respect for human dignity and freedom and to become a respectable member of the community of civilized nations--not by loud rhetoric or brute force, but by taking actions to promote human rights at home and in the world. In the “one world” in which we live, the dreams that are coming true in China today will significantly shape everyone’s future. Therefore, in order to promote a successful Olympics consistent with human rights, we propose the following measures: 1.Declare amnesty for all prisoners of conscience so that they can enjoy the Olympic games in freedom. 2.Open China’s borders to all Chinese citizens who have been forced into exile for their beliefs, expression, or faith, so that they can re-unite with their loved ones and celebrate the glory of the Olympics in their motherland; 3.Implement the government ordinance to allow foreign journalists to conduct interviews and reporting without pre-approval by authorities before October 17, 2008, granting Chinese journalists the same access and independence. 4.Provide fair compensation to the victims of forced evictions and land appropriations that have been done in order to construct Olympic facilities, and release people who have been detained or imprisoned (often violently) for protesting or resisting such actions. 5.Protect the rights of workers on all Olympic construction sites, including their right to organize independent labor unions; end discrimination against rural migrant laborers and give them fair compensation. 6.End police operations intended to intercept, detain, or send home petitioners who try to travel to Beijing to complain about local officials’ misconduct; abolish illegal facilities used for incarcerating, interrogating, and terrorizing petitioners; end the “clean up” operations aimed at migrants that demolish their temporary housing and close down schools for their children. 7.Establish a system of citizen oversight over Olympics spending and provide public accounting and independent auditing of Olympics- related expenditures; make the process of awarding contracts to businesses transparent, and hold legally accountable any official who embezzles or wastes public funds. We further suggest setting up an independent Beijing Olympics Watch Committee, composed of independent experts and representatives of non- governmental organizations and affected communities such as migrant laborers and people who have been forcibly relocated. This Committee would oversee the implementation of the above proposals. It should be allowed to operate independently, to examine plans, to interview freely, and to release its findings to the public. Citizen participation is key to a successful Olympics. If proposals even as straightforward as the foregoing cannot be adopted, we feel certain that the Beijing Olympics will not go down in history as the glorious events that everyone wishes them to be. We do not want to “politicize” the Olympic movement. However, pushing the Games through in ways that violate human rights and that hurt people who are forced into silence, all in the name of a “dream” that belongs only to “some” people, not our whole world, will only plant seeds of resentment that will exacerbate the crises in China and affect the future of the world. Sincerely yours, Signed (name followed by location of residence and profession): August 7, 2007 DING Zilin 丁子霖（Beijing, professor, leader of “Tiananmen Mothers”） LIU Xiaobo 刘晓波（Beijing, writer, president of independent Chinese PEN） BAO Zhunxin 包遵信（Beijing, historian） YU Haocheng 于浩成（Beijing, legal scholar） DAI Qing 戴 晴（Beijing, writer/journalist） BAO Tong 鲍 彤（Beijing, former member of CCP Central Committee） JIANG Peikun 蒋培坤（Beijing, professor） ZHANG Xianling 张先玲（Beijing, engineer, leading member of “Tiananmen Mothers”） JIANG Qisheng 江棋生（Beijing, scientist/writer） CHEN Ziming 陈子明（Beijing, scholar） ZHANG Zhuhua 张祖桦（Beijing, Scholar） LIAO Yiwu 廖亦武（Sichuan, writer） WANG Yi 王 怡（Sichuan, scholar） JIAO Guobiao 焦国标（Beijing, scholar/writer） CHEN Xiaoya 陈小雅（Beijing, scholar/writer） LIU Junning 刘军宁（Beijing, scholar） XU Youyu 徐友渔（Beijing, scholar at Chinese Academy of Social Science） HE Weifang 贺卫方（Beijing, professor, Beijing University） XIA Yeliang 夏业良（Beijing, economist） AI Xiaoming 艾晓明（Guangzhou, professor） ZHANG Hong 张 闳（Shanghai, professor） YU Jie 余 杰（Beijing, writer） YU Shichun 余世存（Beijing, scholar/writer） MA Bo 马 波（Beijing, writer） FU Guoyong 傅国涌（Zhejiang, writer） RANG Yunfei 冉云飞（Sichuan, writer） GAO Yu 高 瑜（Beijing, journalist） ZAN Aizong 昝爱宗（Zhejiang, journalist） PU Zhiqiang 浦志强（Beijing, lawyer） TENG Biao 滕 彪（Beijing, lawyer） ZHUANG Daohe 庄道鹤（Zhejiang, lawyer） XIA Lin 夏 霖（Beijing, lawyer） HU Jia 胡 佳（Beijing, activist） LIU Feiyue 刘飞跃 （Hubei, activist) WEN Kejian 温克坚（Zhejiang, writer） ZHAO Dagong 赵达功（Shenzhen, writer） QIN Geng 秦 耕（Hainan, writer） WANG Debang 王德邦（Beijing, writer） Signed after August 7， 2007: Liu Shui 刘水（Gansu, writer） Liu Yiming 刘逸明（Hubei, writer） Zeng Ning 曾宁(Guizhou, writer) Lu Yang 鲁扬（Shandong, poet） Chen Yangchao 陈泱潮（Exiled democracy activist） Wang Zhongling 王中陵(Writer) Yan Liehan 鄢烈汉(Hubei, no affiliation) Lin, Shuijing (Beijing, lawyer) Wu Mengqian, 吴孟谦（Zhejiang, unemployed ） Bi Shiyuan 毕时圆（Writer ） Ma Yaliang马亚莲（Shanghai, citizen） Yang Zhongxia杨仲侠（Nanjing, teacher ） Cui Xinfqng崔兴昉（Shenzhen, Professional ） Wen Jianping文建平（Beijing, journalist） Sun Jing 孙静（Liaoning Benxi, teacher） Liu Jingsheng 刘京生（Beijing, professional） Ye Du 野渡（Guangzhou, editor ） Lu Wen 陆文（Jiangshu, writer ） Yu Zhijian 余志坚（Hunan Liuyang, wrtiter ） Niu Lehou 牛乐吼（Henang, professional） Wang Dejia 王德佳 （Guangxi Quanzhou, writer） Lv Disong 吕耿松(Hangzhou, professional) Wang Donghai 王东海 (Hangzhou, professional) Ren Weiren 任伟仁 (Hangzhou, professional） Xu Guang 徐光 (Hangzhou, professional ) Wang Ronqing 王荣清 (Hangzhou, professional) Wang Fuhua 王富华 (Hangzhou, professional) Gao Haibing 高海兵 (Hangzhou, professional) Lai Jinbiao 来金彪 (Hangzhou, professional) Xiao Libin 萧利彬 (Hangzhou, professional) Xi Chuangxi 席传喜 (Hangzhou, professional) Zhou Wei 邹伟(Hangzhou, professional) Fang Ziliang 范子良 (Hangzhou, professional) Qie Huimin 戚惠民 (Hangzhou, professional) Hu Junxiong 胡俊雄 (Hangzhou, professional) Wang Rongyao 王荣耀 (Hangzhou, professional) Qiu gengyao 邱更耀 (Hangzhou, professional) Chen Longde 陈龙德 (Hangzhou, professional) Wu gaoxing 吴高兴 (Hangzhou, professional) Mao Guoliang 毛国良 (Hangzhou, professional) Zhong Zhengxiang 钟正相 (Hangzhou, professional) Chen Lei 陈雷 (Hangzhou, professional) Chen Wei 陈卫 (Sichuan, professional) Ouyang Yi 欧阳懿（Sicuan, writer） Zhou Zhigang 周志刚（Sichuan, Teacher） Hanbin 韩斌（Sichuan, doctor） Deng Hui 邓辉（Sichuan, farmer） Feng Daxun 冯达勋（Sichuan, jobless） Lin Shuangde 林双德 (Guangxi Qinzhou, landless farmer) Guo Tai 郭泰 (Guangxi Qinuzhou, landless farmer) Guo Xin 郭新 (Guangxi Qinzhou, landless farmer) Guo Wen 郭文(Guanxi, Qinzhou, landless farmer) Guo Zhan 郭赞(Guanxi Qinzhou, landless farmer) Lin Huan 林焕 (Guanxi Qinzhou, landless farmer) Liu Jun 刘军（Guanxi Qinzhou, landless farmer） Qie Qinhong 戚钦宏（Guangxi Qinzhou, government official） Mo Jianggang 莫建刚（Guiyang, writer ） Wu Yuqin 吴玉琴（Guiyang, writer） Liao Shuangyuan 廖双元（guiyang, writer ） Zhang Mingzhen 张明珍 （Guiyang, human rights activist） Sun Zhihuai 孙治淮（Nanjing, office worker） Mengfei 孟飞（Hebei, teacher ） Huang Xiaomin黄晓敏（Chengdu, jobless） Wu Yu 吴郁（Guiyang, worker） Quan Lizhi 全林志（Guiyang, teacher） Li Renke 李任科（Guiyang, democracy activist） Meng Xing 孟醒（Shangdong, Cyber “resident”） Liu Eran 刘二安（Henang Anyang, artist ） Wu Yingzhou 吴灜洲（Shanxi, Jinzhong, agricultural scientist） Han Xin 汉心（Guizhou, teacher） Che Xiangqian 车向前（Guangdong Foshan, professional） Hai Yang 海洋（China, worker） Mao Guoliang 毛国良（Zhejiang, democracy activist ） Li Xin 李新（Beijing, retired worker ） Tan Jianmin 谭坚民（Guangxi Guilin, corporate employee） Tang Jinling 唐荆陵（Guangdong, lawyer） Zhang Hu 张虎（Beijing, journalist） He Yongquan 何永全 (Shanghai, professional） Yang Qinheng杨勤恒（Shanghai, professional） Li Guotao 李国涛（Shanghai, professional） Dai Xuezhong 戴学忠（Shanghai, professional） Dai Xuewu 戴学武（Shanghai, professional） Shang Jiancheng 桑坚城（Shanghai, retired worker ） Shen Jizhong 沈继忠（Shanghai, professional） Han Lifa 韩立法 （Shanghai, professional） Yao Zhengxiang 姚振祥（Shanghai, professional） Gao Xiaoliang 高晓亮（Shanghai, professional） Jjin Jisheng 金济生（Shanghai, professional） Xu Jicheng 徐纪成（Shanghai, professional） Lin Xinshu 林信舒（Fuzhou, doctor ） Zhang Qingfa 张庆发(Shangdong, professor ) Lei Yaohui, 雷跃辉 (Jiangxi Yingtan, professional) Wang Lixiong 王力雄（Beijing, writer ） Jiang Tianyong 江天勇（Beijing, lawyer） Hou Wenbao 侯文豹（Anhui, Professional） Deng Huanwu 邓焕武（Chongqing, writer ） WU Huajin 吴华金（China, student） Chen Fan 程凡（Wenzhou, educator ） Liu Zhengyou 刘正有（Sichuan Zigong, landless farmer and human rights activist） Min Liangchen 闵良臣（Henan, writer） Li Xiaolong 黎小龙 (Guangxi Nanning, professional) Qi Ziyong 齐志勇 (Beijing, human rights activist) Xi Guozhen 奚国珍（Shanghai, resident） Liu Lu 刘路（Shangdong, lawyer ） Wu Zhongli 武中立（Chongqing, human rights activist） Xu Gaojing 徐高金（Jiangxi, human rights activist） Tie Liu 铁流（Beijing, writer） Zhou Liang 周良（Anhui, teacher） Tong Meng 童蒙（China, democracy activist） Wang Wenji 王文集（Jianxi, government official） Wu Meiping 吴美萍（Qinzhou, jobless） Hu Fayun 胡发云（Wuhan, author of the novel ? Ru Yan ?《如 焉》） Wang Xiaoshan 王小山（Beijing, chief editor、veteran journalist） Hou Fei, 候飞（Beijing, chief editor） Rao Bo 姚博（Beijing, editor） Rao Lifa 姚立法（Hubei, human rights activist） Liang Xiaoyan 梁晓燕（Beijing, editor ） Xu Xiao 徐 晓（Beijing, Writer ） Zhang Guotang 张国堂（Hubei, democracy activist ） Duan Jianxin 段建新 (Yunnan, accountant) Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shahzulf at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 15:34:49 2008 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Roots of nationalism in Sindh Message-ID: <876844.65347.qm@web38807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Roots of nationalism in Sindh By Zulfiqar Shah [Encounter page, daily Dawn, March 29, 2008] A POLITICALLY mature reaction by the people of Sindh was witnessed after the murder of Ms Benazir Bhutto. The mobs torched government property, destroyed the means of communication and banned vehicular traffic in every corner of Sindh. Before attacking trains, buildings, trucks and trawlers, they provided safe passage to the security guards, drivers and passengers placed inside. Food and shelter were provided to the stranded passengers. The discipline witnessed even in such an abrupt burst of anger became possible only due to deep roots of nationalism in Sindhi society that first rose against the British occupation in the nineteenth century. To understand Sindh’s nationalistic mass psyche, we need to explore the past and unfold the process of its development. Sindhi nationalism can be divided into pre-partition and post-partition waves. The pre-partition wave consisted of early resistance period (1842-1900), transitional period (1900-1930) and Hur War II period (1930-1943), whereas, the post-partition nationalism consisted of cultural nationalism (1947-1970), transitional nationalism (1970-1980), resistance period (1980-1987), degeneration (1988-2000) and revival period (ongoing). In the mid-nineteenth century, the Talpur Emirs’ kingdom was divided into three administrative regions. The major one was ruled from Hyderabad, while the others from Khairpur and Mirpurkhas. Their armies joined forces in a last desperate stand against the British invasion at Miani in March 1843. That battle proved to be the Talpurs’ waterloo. Ten thousand Sindhi combatants were slaughtered. The invasion was aimed at using Sindh as a launching pad in the first Anglo-Afghan war. After this occupation, a series of liberation wars in Sindh dominated the next decades, commencing with the first post-invasion uprising of Ranas in Tharparkar, a south-eastern desert district under Karan Singh on April 15, 1859 in which hundreds of fighters lost their lives. The insurgency went on for six months, and finally, routed the British forces. The last commander of rebels, Rooplo Kolhi, was hanged publicly in the Nagarparkar town. In 1857, Sher Mohammed Khan of Mirpurkhas gave the British a good fight and was blown from cannon-mouth at Rambagh in Karachi. Darya Khan Jakhrani, another resistance fighter, was expelled to Aden. After Napier’s departure in 1850, Sindh was attached to the Bombay Presidency, with Sir Bartle Frere as its first Commissioner. There was no infrastructure in Sindh at that time. Frere in 1850-1859 changed the face of Sindh. In 1853, he gave Sindh its first English school, in 1858 the Sindh Railways started work on the Karachi-Hyderabad railway track, irrigation was developed and Sukkur Barrage planned. In the era of British occupation Sindh transformed from a medieval to modern society. Rabindranath Tagore once described Hyderabad as “the most fashionable city in India”. Shikarpur became the banker of Central Asia. And after Russian revolution, it became the banker of south India. The fight against the British rule was not yet over. The Hur Jama’at under Pir Pagara Syed Mardan Shah waged guerilla warfare against British Indian Army in 1890. This liberation war is known as Hur guerilla warfare-I, which went on the whole decade. Hundreds of fighters took part in the warfare; however, three of them, Bachu Badshah, Peeru Vazir and Gulu caught public eye. This was followed by the Hur guerilla warfare-II which erupted in early 1941. About 25,000 sq kms area was the battleground between the guerillas and British forces. To counter this, some 35,000 troops of Baloch and Punjab regiments were deployed in Sindh, while thousands from Frontier Force, Air Force, Parachute Force and Sindh Rifle Police were also provided to the Anti-Hur Command. The Heavy artillery was also used. The first martial law in the subcontinent was imposed on Sindh. By changing its entire class composition, the partition changed the face of socio-political course in Sindh. Hindus formed middle and urban class in the Sindh society. In 1947, they migrated to India and left a vacuum of middle and urbanised class. Peasant and feudal lords were the remaining classes forming post-partition Sindhi society. Immediately after the creation of Pakistan in 1947, the Sindh government invited the central government of Pakistan to establish its capital in Karachi. This offer was accepted gladly. After becoming the capital, Karachi was separated from Sindh and handed over to the central government. This separation took place on July 23, 1948 under the orders of Mr Jinnah. The Sindh Assembly passed a resolution against this decision and the Sindhi public opinion also turned against it. The separation of Karachi caused financial, cultural, educational and linguistic setback to Sindh. On October 14, 1954, One Unit scheme was introduced by the centre in order to confront the numerical majority of East Pakistan. Under this plan, Sindh, Balochistan, Pakhtunkhawa (the NWFP) and the Punjab, which had been distinct cultural and geographic entities for centuries, were merged into so-called West Pakistan, which could then claim parity with East Pakistan. In 1970s, Prime Minister Bhutto started to transform Sindh society by developing its middle class. The emerging middle class began becoming foundation stone of the nationalist movement in Sindh. Almost all major nationalist parties were founded in this era. After Bhutto was executed, Sindh took to resistance against the military. Hundreds of civilians as well as armed personnel were killed. If we analyse the situation in that period, we will find that MRD in Sindh was more a nationalistic reaction against the military than simply a movement for democracy. In 1990s, the middle class in Sindh inclined to be accommodative as the PPP was twice in power. Consequently, nationalist tendencies in Sindhi society became relatively milder. Contrary to this, during Musharraf era, the picture has entirely changed. The nationalist movements in Sindh and Balochistan are somehow inter-related. If there is a resistance in Balochistan, the morale of the nationalist movement in Sindh becomes high. Therefore, what is going on at present in Balochistan has influenced Sindh, given that the Musharaf government’s policies have escalated the sense of deprivation in Sindh. Besides, the murder of Benazir has further aired the flame of separatism in Sindh, which is spreading day by day. In these circumstances a new dialogue between the federating units and the centre has become essential to create a new point of agreement between the provinces and the federation regarding political contract in the federal structure of the country. The writer is provincial coordinator of South Asia Partnership Pakistan. Email: shahzulf at yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 03:00:55 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:30:55 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Dutch Anti-Islam Movie FITNA released online References: <6353c690803281101t11001a6m8b545ab96fa7869a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006401c891e4$3175bdb0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> It's still there on youtube. You need to confirm that you are 18 or older before being able to watch it. Good luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mahmood farooqui" To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Dutch Anti-Islam Movie FITNA released online > Very sadly it has been removed. I would have been very interested to see > what a staunch critic of Islam makes of it, although I know that > practitioners rarely like critical critics...Researchers may have a > different opinion though. > > On 28/03/2008, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> Fitna Released Online >> Michael C. Moynihan | March >> 28, >> 2008, 1:10pm >> >> >> I'm not sure if there's some *fatwa* against embedding videos, but watch >> and >> decide for yourself: >> >> http://reason.com/blog/show/125743.html >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From oishiksircar at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 03:21:08 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:51:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] International conference: "Continuities and Innovations: Popular Print--Past and Present, Local and Global." In-Reply-To: <47EE9353.2060005@yorku.ca> References: <47EE9353.2060005@yorku.ca> Message-ID: <62cba67a0803291451n62ba22a8mb9610f26acee49cf@mail.gmail.com> The conference website (under development) is at: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/popprint Call for Papers and Presentations Continuities and Innovations: Popular Print Cultures – Past and Present, Local and Global University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 27-30 August 2008 Papers and presentations are invited for any aspect of the conference theme. Proposals should be 200 to 300 words in length and clearly state the central theme or argument, the kind of popular print or related media to be considered, and its social and cultural location in time and place. Please indicate any equipment requirements (data projector; conference computer; overhead projector; video or dvd player; audio player, etc). A brief resumé should accompany each proposal, stating the proposer's name, address, contact information, and relevant academic, professional, or personal background and knowledge of form of popular print culture discussed. Send proposals and resumés by email as pasted-in documents or attachments in an up-to-date format to: popprint at ualberta.ca Or mail hard copies to: Popprint, Kirsten MacLeod, Department of English and Film Studies, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2E5. Questions to either address. Deadline for proposals is 30 May 2008. But space on the program is limited, and proposals will be considered on a first-come, first-accommodated basis. This conference and popular arts festival consider what most people read, here and elsewhere, now and in the past. Popular print characteristically includes both words and images, and is intertwined with music and performance. In these forms it has been and continues to be one of the most powerful cultural forces in history, morphing into new media and new technologies, from the phonograph record through radio, film, and television to video games and the internet. Popular print culture is now a global phenomenon, with striking similarities in what most people read, anywhere. Yet there are also striking local differences, inflections, and variations in what most people read, here or elsewhere. "Continuities and Innovations" will bring together all those interested in popular print culture--readers and writers, publishers and fans, librarians and collectors, teachers and students, and of course researchers in many academic disciplines. Proposals are invited from all of these groups, directly addressing the conference theme, or taking up any aspect of "Popular Print Cultures, Past and Present, Local and Global." Topics can include relations between popular print and other media, between popular and "high" literatures, between words and images, between words and music, between past and present forms, and so on. Presentations may be from writers, readers, publishers, teachers, students, distributors, sellers, librarians, illustrators, opponents, promoters, adapters to other media, fans, collectors, et al. Papers and presentations can be on any relevant topic—reading popular print and creating it, writing it and illustrating it, publishing it and selling it, counteracting it or transforming it, adapting it and influencing it, censoring it and living it, and more. Participants may consider popular print and politics, religion, sexuality, class, ethnicity, "race," nationality, or any other theme. Google "Edmonton Alberta" and "University of Alberta" for information on the venue. Program and other information, including travel and accommodation details, regularly updated, will be available on the conference website: www.arts.ualberta.ca/popprint -- Gary Kelly FRSC University Professor Department of English and Film Studies University of Alberta Edmonton, AB T6G 2E5 Canada (780) 492-0561 gkelly at ualberta.ca -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 11:59:17 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:59:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Yasin_Malik=3A_Insensitive_India-T?= =?windows-1252?q?oday=92s_Youth_Icon_=3A_LALIT_KOUL?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70803292329o4f983263l66fdd10baf8dea98@mail.gmail.com> *What India needs is political vision and a leadership that has nothing at stake except India."* These are the words of Mr. Aroon Purie, Chairman and Editor-in-Chief, India Today Group. What is the significance of these words, you might ask. These words are significant because Aroon Purie is a respected journalist whose words influence the powers that be and that he used these words to promote recently held India Today Conclave 2008 – that was billed as a conclave that "addresses the subject of Leadership For The 21st Century and hopes its efforts at bringing the best minds together to discuss, debate and offer solutions to issues that plague the world will make a difference." Keep reading at : http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/yasin-malik-insensitive-india-today%e2%80%99s-youth-icon/ From ghosh.ranu at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 12:02:38 2008 From: ghosh.ranu at gmail.com (ranu ghosh) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:32:38 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] pl go through Message-ID: <80ea5720803292332p694c2206t8ab9c643d76d669b@mail.gmail.com> please circulate widely Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:39:26 +0530 From: "Abhee Dutt-Mazumder" Subject: Fwd: Sibpur BESU Dear Friends, Why did students write on blank answer- scripts "Save BESU from becoming a Nandigram"? The students of Sibpur BESU are facing an assault of the college administration-local goons-police. The Vice-chancellor Nikhil Ranjan Banerjea is orchestrating the assault, the aim of which is to terrorize students into joining or supporting the students' wing of the major ruling party. It is not an accident that all those who are being arrested by the police are distinguished by their non-allegiance to this students' organisation. The enthusiasm of the police is, no doubt, linked to the fact that the son of Mohd. Selim, of the CPI(M), is a student of BESU at present (not admitted through the Joint Entrance Examinations, as reported). The evil nexus has cleverly used the incident of a brawl under the effect of drink to go into the assault mode against the students, while (1) masking the real scenario, pretending that the question is one of discipline, and (2) beating up non-SFI students mercilessly in the name of enforcing order. The campus has been cut off and the media are not admitted in. So, March 20-24, during which the students were continuously assaulted by goons and the police, who even entered the girls' hostel, and the authorities kept up a relentless pressure to join the SFI, little news of the magnitude of the atrocities and the flagrant political thrust of the BESU administration reached the media. Taken aback at first, the students of BESU have rallied back to protest against the atrocities, returning blank sheets in the examinations which commenced on March 24, and participating in a sit-in at Metro channel of Esplanade. A fact-sheet prepared by the students is given below. Also attached are letters written by the students to the VC and the Registrar, as well as a copy of a mass petition against one Afaz-Uddin Ahmed. Please circulate widely. Dipanjan Rai Chaudhuri FACTSHEET In chronological order: 07.09.2007: A notice ( memo no. RDO-2/1387) had been issued by the registrar where it was notified that four final year students (UG) and six 3rd year students (UG) were suspended and instructed to vacate their respective hostels with immediate effect for an indefinite period of time. But in the aforementioned notice, lots of irregularities have been found, which are mentioned below: · It is clearly mentioned in the notice that inquiries against the students alleged to have committed misdemeanors, were pending. Then, we would like to know, how, without proper inquiry, were the 10 students slapped with such harsh punishment? · We have found that one of the accused students viz. Tanmoy Chatterjee (3rd yr. Metallurgy) was not present in the university campus on the date on which alleged incident took place. He had in fact, gone to visit his friend's ailing mother, at Peerless Hospital. Then how did his name crop up in the notice? So it is explicit that the accused 10 students had been wrongly framed and suspended on the basis of some fabricated allegations. We are amazed and upset at this sort of bias on the part of the authority. 12.12. 2007: " A second year student (U.G) named Afaz-Uddin Ahmed of the Dept. of Information Technology is fomenting trouble & violence in the University campus for the last one year. He, with the help of some of his batch mates is explicitly trying to disturb the peace & harmony of the University campus by infusing dirty politics in the affairs related to the students & inciting violence in the University campus, thus denting the integrity among the students. It had been reported to the concerned authority that he was found to behave in the most unacceptable manner and even has the audacity to manhandle some of his seniors. Presently he has taken his grudge to such an extent that he is threatening his own batch mates of dire consequences if they do not pay their "allegiance" to him. Now he has become so desperate that he is even trying to scare them by threatening that he will take "revenge" by waging his animosity against their families. It has been heard that a guardian of his batch mate has received threatening calls from an anonymous phone number, which is unprecedented in the history of this 150 year old institution. There is no denying the fact that his activities are unbecoming of a student of such a reputed institution. We had lodged several complaints against him to the concerned authority, but unfortunately all have gone unheeded. If he is testing our patience, we would like to make it clear that we will no longer remain as silent victims of his inhuman acts. It is unfortunate to inform you that his motive of gaining narrow political mileage is explicitly getting the patronage of some of the office bearers of BESU, as found in yesterday night's incident at hostel 9.But unfortunately the University authority is trying to overlook his heinous activities because of his outside political support. " (From a mass petition by the students) When we drew the attention of our faculty members to this matter and submitted a mass petition to the Dean of Students (PICSA) on 12.12.2007, the authority came under pressure to act and constituted a disciplinary committee. But on the very day (13th December, 2007), Students' Federation of India staged a rally and intentionally fomented panic among the students. And the result was imposition of section 144 in the campus, a black day for us. The "Afaaz" issue, thus, died down. 19.3.2008: Three 2nd year students returning to their hostels at around 10 p.m. were ragged and racially abused by few boarders of "Wolfenden Hall", as they were natives from outside West Bengal. They were physically assaulted and two 2nd year students sustained head injuries. Police forces were called in to control the situation. However, the boarders of "Wolfenden Hall" continued to resort to violent means in spite of the presence of police and faculty members. Two of the Wolfenden boarders were caught red handed with hockey sticks (it is to be noted that there is no hockey team in our university) by the faculty members. But, on insistence of Prof.Bhawani Prasad Mukhopadhay, the two were released with no charges being levied against them. 20.3.2008: In the evening, party cadres brutally assaulted few students at the first gate of the university in front of R.A.F. SFI supporters helped them by pointing out the targets. When the students appealed to the R.A.F to take action, they resorted to indiscriminate "lathicharge" on the students. They even entered Richardson Hall without the permission of the hostel superintendent and assaulted the boarders, including a physically handicapped student. More than twenty students were seriously injured. The same act was repeated in Sengupta as well as Sen Halls. The dual policy adopted by the R.A.F. was apparent from the ease with which cadres were roaming freely and threatening us in the presence of R.A.F. In the mean time SFI supporters attacked 2nd year hostels. The 2nd year students were so terrified that they sought our help. We took them to our hostels, called our University doctors and provided them with First Aid. Strangely, the authority's idea of assistance was an order to vacate the hostels near midnight. Buses were provided to transport us to the Howrah station. We narrated the ordeal of the 2nd year students to police. They assured us that the 2nd year students would be able to reach their hostels. So we boarded the bus provided by the authority. But unfortunately when we reached Howrah Station we came to know that the hapless 2nd year students were arrested by police charging them of loitering in the campus after 10-30 pm. You can surely understand that we, the students have become victims of SFI-Authority-Police nexus whose sole motive is to de-stabilize our esteemed Institution. Our very existence in the University campus is at stake. We would like to vehemently protest against the barbaric treatment given to the ordinary students. 24.03.2008: Students were put under virtual house arrest, and their free movement was restricted by the police. They even threatened students of dire consequences, which included threatening them with initiation of legal proceedings and disrupting their careers, for no valid reason. The press was not allowed to enter the campus and report the incidents occurring inside. Even the students were not allowed to go near the press and express their views. This constitutes a gross violation of human rights. We would like to appeal to you to bring this to the attention of the nation at large and help us to bring the offenders to justice. Withwarm regards, Students (U.G) BESU, Shibpur From dissemination.jbnaudy at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 15:14:41 2008 From: dissemination.jbnaudy at gmail.com (Jean-Baptiste Naudy) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:44:41 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] SOCIETE REALISTE:::: exhibition ::: labor galeria:: budapest: opening APR 4th. In-Reply-To: <935119BB-E4CF-4C1A-B7D3-138C25F50485@societerealiste.net> References: <5B368C27-A226-4E11-97E4-8BA56F17A646@societerealiste.net> <935119BB-E4CF-4C1A-B7D3-138C25F50485@societerealiste.net> Message-ID: <80561c450803300244j645a2143r29df44a010304e06@mail.gmail.com> SOCIÉTÉ RÉALISTE *MA: CULTURE STATES - EXPOSITION DES ARTS ET TECHNIQUES APPLIQUES A LA VIE MODERNE.* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Solo exhibition. *Opening*: Friday 4 APR, 18:00. *Open through*: Friday 25 APR. Labor Galéria , Képíró utca 6, BUDAPEST Société Réaliste's *CULTURE STATES* project takes its subtitle from the historical *EXPOSITION INTERNATIONALE DES ARTS ET TECHNIQUES APPLIQUES A LA VIE MODERNE*, held in 1937 in Paris. This fair has been one of the most spectacular example of the relation between Culture and Nation, from the confrontation between the Nazi and the Soviet pavilions to the display of the imperialist cultural conceptions of France or UK through their colonial pavilions. Seventy years after this key-moment, what is the relation between political and cultural entities in nowadays Europe? *Ministere de l'Architecture* has commissioned a research and production study in the field of territorial ergonomy. This study, preliminarily exhibited at Labor Galéria, focuses on the multi-layered principle of spatial re-qualification, that remains the domain of activity for the European geographical zone's cultural history. = SOCIÉTÉ RÉALISTE - intelligence at societerealiste.net - http://www.societerealiste.net = From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Mar 30 16:32:45 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:02:45 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] pl go through In-Reply-To: <80ea5720803292332p694c2206t8ab9c643d76d669b@mail.gmail.com> References: <80ea5720803292332p694c2206t8ab9c643d76d669b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, what else do you expect from a political party which has iron fist to throttle dissent and talk of freedom using the "intellectials " as front to dictatorship, be it China or West Bengal, dissent is always handled by the goons of the politburo with violent reprisals. Only issue now is the rest of the country is free of such goons, and vote share has gone down less than 5 percent of voters of the nation for the left partis by these tactics, their presence in Kerala is flip flop of no choice election after election as both the fronts have strong goons to take violence to suppress dissent. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: ranu ghosh Date: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: [Reader-list] pl go through To: reader-list at sarai.net > please circulate widely > > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:39:26 +0530 > From: "Abhee Dutt-Mazumder" > Subject: Fwd: Sibpur BESU > > > > > Dear Friends, > Why did students write on blank answer- scripts "Save BESU from > becoming a Nandigram"? > > The students of Sibpur BESU are facing an assault of the college > administration-local goons-police. The Vice-chancellor Nikhil Ranjan > Banerjea is orchestrating the assault, the aim of which is to > terrorize students into joining or supporting the students' wing of > the major ruling party. It is not an accident that all those who are > being arrested by the police are distinguished by their non-allegiance > to this students' organisation. The enthusiasm of the police is, no > doubt, linked to the fact that the son of Mohd. Selim, of the CPI(M), > is a student of BESU at present (not admitted through the Joint > Entrance Examinations, as reported). > > The evil nexus has cleverly used the incident of a brawl under the > effect of drink to go into the assault mode against the students, > while > (1) masking the real scenario, pretending that the question is > one of > discipline, and > (2) beating up non-SFI students mercilessly in the name of > enforcing order. > > The campus has been cut off and the media are not admitted in. So, > March 20-24, during which the students were continuously assaulted by > goons and the police, who even entered the girls' hostel, and the > authorities kept up a relentless pressure to join the SFI, little news > of the magnitude of the atrocities and the flagrant political thrust > of the BESU administration reached the media. > > Taken aback at first, the students of BESU have rallied back to > protest against the atrocities, returning blank sheets in the > examinations which commenced on March 24, and participating in a > sit-in at Metro channel of Esplanade. > > A fact-sheet prepared by the students is given below. Also attached > are letters written by the students to the VC and the Registrar, as > well as a copy of a mass petition against one Afaz-Uddin Ahmed. > > Please circulate widely. > > Dipanjan Rai Chaudhuri > > > FACTSHEET > > In chronological order: > > 07.09.2007: > A notice ( memo no. RDO-2/1387) had been issued by the registrar where > it was notified that four final year students (UG) and six 3rd year > students (UG) were suspended and instructed to vacate their respective > hostels with immediate effect for an indefinite period of time. > But in > the aforementioned notice, lots of irregularities have been found, > which are mentioned below: > · It is clearly mentioned in the notice that inquiries against > the students alleged to have committed misdemeanors, were pending. > Then, we would like to know, how, without proper inquiry, were the 10 > students slapped with such harsh punishment? > · We have found that one of the accused students viz. Tanmoy > Chatterjee (3rd yr. Metallurgy) was not present in the university > campus on the date on which alleged incident took place. He had in > fact, gone to visit his friend's ailing mother, at Peerless Hospital. > Then how did his name crop up in the notice? > > > So it is explicit that the accused 10 students had been wrongly framed > and suspended on the basis of some fabricated allegations. We are > amazed and upset at this sort of bias on the part of the authority. > > 12.12. 2007: > " A second year student (U.G) named Afaz-Uddin Ahmed of the Dept. of > Information Technology is fomenting trouble & violence in the > University campus for the last one year. He, with the help of some of > his batch mates is explicitly trying to disturb the peace & > harmony of > the University campus by infusing dirty politics in the affairs > related to the students & inciting violence in the University campus, > thus denting the integrity among the students. It had been reported > to the concerned authority that he was found to behave in the most > unacceptable manner and even has the audacity to manhandle some of his > seniors. Presently he has taken his grudge to such an extent that he > is threatening his own batch mates of dire consequences if they do not > pay their "allegiance" to him. Now he has become so desperate that he > is even trying to scare them by threatening that he will take > "revenge" by waging his animosity against their families. It has been > heard that a guardian of his batch mate has received threatening calls > from an anonymous phone number, which is unprecedented in the history > of this 150 year old institution. There is no denying the fact that > his activities are unbecoming of a student of such a reputed > institution. > We had lodged several complaints against him to the concerned > authority, but unfortunately all have gone unheeded. If he is testing > our patience, we would like to make it clear that we will no longer > remain as silent victims of his inhuman acts. It is unfortunate to > inform you that his motive of gaining narrow political mileage is > explicitly getting the patronage of some of the office bearers of > BESU, as found in yesterday night's incident at hostel 9.But > unfortunately the University authority is trying to overlook his > heinous activities because of his outside political support. " > (From a > mass petition by the students) > When we drew the attention of our faculty members to this matter and > submitted a mass petition to the Dean of Students (PICSA) on > 12.12.2007, the authority came under pressure to act and > constituted a > disciplinary committee. But on the very day (13th December, 2007), > Students' Federation of India staged a rally and intentionally > fomented panic among the students. And the result was imposition of > section 144 in the campus, a black day for us. The "Afaaz" issue, > thus, died down. > > 19.3.2008: > Three 2nd year students returning to their hostels at around 10 p.m. > were ragged and racially abused by few boarders of "Wolfenden Hall", > as they were natives from outside West Bengal. They were physically > assaulted and two 2nd year students sustained head injuries. Police > forces were called in to control the situation. However, the boarders > of "Wolfenden Hall" continued to resort to violent means in spite of > the presence of police and faculty members. Two of the Wolfenden > boarders were caught red handed with hockey sticks (it is to be noted > that there is no hockey team in our university) by the faculty > members. But, on insistence of Prof.Bhawani Prasad Mukhopadhay, the > two were released with no charges being levied against them. > > > 20.3.2008: > In the evening, party cadres brutally assaulted few students at the > first gate of the university in front of R.A.F. SFI supporters helped > them by pointing out the targets. When the students appealed to the > R.A.F to take action, they resorted to indiscriminate > "lathicharge" on > the students. They even entered Richardson Hall without the permission > of the hostel superintendent and assaulted the boarders, including a > physically handicapped student. More than twenty students were > seriously injured. The same act was repeated in Sengupta as well as > Sen Halls. The dual policy adopted by the R.A.F. was apparent from the > ease with which cadres were roaming freely and threatening us in the > presence of R.A.F. In the mean time SFI supporters attacked 2nd year > hostels. The 2nd year students were so terrified that they sought our > help. We took them to our hostels, called our University doctors and > provided them with First Aid. Strangely, the authority's idea of > assistance was an order to vacate the hostels near midnight. Buses > were provided to transport us to the Howrah station. We narrated the > ordeal of the 2nd year students to police. They assured us that the > 2nd year students would be able to reach their hostels. So we boarded > the bus provided by the authority. But unfortunately when we reached > Howrah Station we came to know that the hapless 2nd year students were > arrested by police charging them of loitering in the campus after > 10-30 pm. > > You can surely understand that we, the students > have become victims of SFI-Authority-Police nexus whose sole > motive is > to de-stabilize our esteemed Institution. Our very existence in the > University campus is at stake. We would like to vehemently protest > against the barbaric treatment given to the ordinary students. > > > 24.03.2008: > Students were put under virtual house arrest, and their free movement > was restricted by the police. They even threatened students of dire > consequences, which included threatening them with initiation of legal > proceedings and disrupting their careers, for no valid reason. > > The press was not allowed to enter the campus and report the incidents > occurring inside. Even the students were not allowed to go near the > press and express their views. This constitutes a gross violation of > human rights. > > > We would like to appeal > to you to bring this to the attention of the nation at large and help > us to bring the offenders to justice. > > > > > Withwarm regards, > > Students (U.G) > > BESU, Shibpur > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Mar 30 16:48:44 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:18:44 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] A national seminar on the Madrasa Reform by ArkFoundation In-Reply-To: <2076f31d0803281853ib84191an1733d097bace0de6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2076f31d0803281853ib84191an1733d097bace0de6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Insha Allah, I hope the educationist will realise that education is not only of religious scriptures but also of being good humans, to be responsible, responsive to fellow living beings, not paranoid about other ways of life. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: arshad amanullah Date: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:24 am Subject: [Reader-list] A national seminar on the Madrasa Reform by ArkFoundation To: reader-list at sarai.net Cc: Ark Foundation > A National Seminar > On > "MADRASAS AND EDUCATIONAL NEEDS OF THE INDIAN MUSLIMS" > > Organised By > Ark Foundation > With Support From > National University of Educational Planning and Administration (NUEPA) > On > Saturday 29th & Sunday 30th March, 2008 > Timings: 9:00am- 05:30pm > Venue: Arts and Aesthetics Auditorium, Jawaharlal Nehru > University, New > Delhi > Programme > SESSION –I: 09:00 – 10:00 AM > > INAUGURATION > Chief Guest: Dr. Karimi Najfi, Cultural Councilor, Islamic > Republic of > Iran, New Delhi > Chair: Prof. Basir Ahmad Khan, PVC, IGNOU, New Delhi > Welcome Note: JNU, New Delhi > Presentation: "Evolution of Madrasa Education System in India" > by Ark > Research Team > Prof. Shahid Mahdi: Prof. Shahid Mahdi, Deputy Chairperson, ICCR, > New Delhi > Vote of Thanks: NUEPA, New Delhi > > ------------Tea Break: 10:00 AM -10:30 AM--------- > > SESSION –II: 10:30 AM- 1:00 PM > > Theme: SCOPE AND RELEVANCE OF MADRASA REFORM > Chair: Prof. M .H. Qureshi, JNU, New Delhi > Presentations – > > Prof. Imtiyaz Ahmad: The State, the Madrasa and the Need for > ReformMaulana Saud Alam Qasmi:Need for Introduction of Modern > Education in Madrasa > Dr. Yogender Sikand: Relevance of Reform in Madrasa Education > System in > Present Socio-Economic Context > Dr Ishtiaq Danish: Reforms in Madrasa Education System: Problems and > Prospects > > -------Lunch Break: 1: 00 PM - 2: 00 PM----------- > > SESSION –III: 2:00 PM- 3:30 PM > > Theme: MODERNIZATION OF MADRASAS: STATE & OTHER AGENCIES' > INTERVENTIONChair & Discussant:Dr. S. Irfan Habib, NISTADS, Delhi > Presentations: > > Justice M.S. A. Siddique: Government Initiatives to Modernize Madrasa > Education System & to Central Madrasa > Board. > Prof. Basir Ahmad Khan: IGNOU's Initiatives to Promote Modern > EducationIn Most Backward Areas & Offering of Professional Courses > to Madrasa > Graduates. > Dr. Nirja Shukla:NCERT's Initiatives Towards Modernization of Madrasa > Education System > Deepika:Jan Vikas and Jamiat-Ulama-I-Hind's Experiment in Gujarat > Daya Ram:The Agha Khan Foundation Initiatives > > ------------Tea Break: 03:30 PM -03:45 PM--------- > > SESSION –IV: 3:45 PM – 5:30 PM > > Theme: EXPERIMENTS WITH REFORMS WITHIN MADRASA INSTITUTIONS: > VOICES FROM > THE GROUND > Chair: Dr. Yogender Sikand, Expert and Freelance Writer > Presentations: > > Dr. Roger Jeffery: Need to Update Madrasa Curriculum: The Bijnor > Experience > Maulana Haziq: Experiments in Higher Islamic Education > Maulana Fazlur Rahim Mojaddidi: Combining Religious and Technical > Education: A Cases Study of Jamiatul Hidaya Jaipur > Qasim Rasool Falahi: Experiences and Challenges in Educating Isolated > Communities > Qazi Shirajudin: Experiments in the Mewaat Region > Zubair Hudwai: Participatory approach of Ulama in Madrasa > reform: Kerala > experience > > Day -2 > > SESSION –V: 9:00 AM – 11:00 AM > > Theme: EXPLORING UNIFORMITY IN THE MADRASA EDUCATION & > CURRICULUM CHANGES > Chair: Prof. Akhtar Mahdi, JNU, New Delhi > Presentations: > > Prof. Aktharul Wasey: Relevance and scope of uniformity in Madrasa > Education & Curriculum Changes in Present Socio-Economic Context > Maulana Salman Nadvi: Hamara Talimi Nisab Kaisa Ho?: In Search > of a New > Curriculum > Dr Mohmad Arshad: Major Trends in Madrasa Education and > possibility of > Reform > Arshad Alam: Understanding Madrasa Curriculum in The Present Time > Dr. Fauzan Ahmad: Madrasa Curriculum: An Overview > > ------------Tea Break: 11:00 AM – 11:15 AM--------- > > SESSION –VI: 11:15 AM – 01:00 PM > > Theme: MEDIA AND REFORM IN MADRASA EDUCATION SYSTEM > Chair: Nilofar Sohrawardi, Freelance Journalist > Presentations: > > Zafar Agha: What & Why of Madrasa Reform and Indifference Of Media > Waris Mazhari: The Recent Deoband Conclave On Terrorism And Its > Echo In The > Media > Arshad Amanullah: The Madrasa Media: What Ails Them? > > > ------------Lunch Break: 01:00 PM – 2:00 AM--------- > > NATIONAL CONSULTATION > On > MADRASA EDUCATION SYSTEM: TOWARDS DRAFTING A ROADMAP FOR REFORM > 2:00 PM – 5:30 PM > > Chair: Dr. Ali Jawed, Director, NCPUL, New Delhi > Agenda: > i. Recommendations of the Seminar > ii. A New Syllabus for Madrasa Education System > iii. Identifying Problems and Setting Goals > iv. A Time-bound Action Plan > v. Any other issue related to the development of Roadmap > > Discussant:Dr. Rizwan Qaiser, Associate Professor, JMI, New Delhi > > Concluding Remark:Dr. Shakeel Ahmad Khan, Director General, NYKS, > New Delhi > > Vote of Thanks: Dr. Shaheen Ansari, Chairman, Ark Foundation, > New Delhi. > > For detailas, contact:Sneha (09868086702), Ifat (9868512776), Farfat > (09212759122), Ather (09810939748) & Arshad Amanullah (09911194488) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 18:16:45 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:16:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dalai Lama praises Indian unity In-Reply-To: <6353c690803300544v7e8454e2ld29c7e4bfe336202@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690803300544v7e8454e2ld29c7e4bfe336202@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690803300546s19b8c0bas114edc186942902@mail.gmail.com> Dalai Lama praises Indian unity *New Delhi, March 29 (IANS)* Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai LamaSaturday credited the rule of law and freedom of expression to explain why Indians with varied cultures remained together. Speaking to reporters here, the Dalai Lama said that despite differences in customs and languages, Indians generally got along with each other quite well. "Here north Indian, south Indian, west Indian and east Indian, they all have different languages, food and customs but they all live together… except may be Kashmir where there is some problem," he said. "This is due to rule of law and freedom of expression," he added. The DalaiLama said all this was accomplished "without force" though "in Kashmir there may be some force". He pointed out that if there were any problems, they were highlighted by the media. "Maybe the media sometimes sensationalise. But if there is any problem, it is immediately brought out by the media." From amitrbasu50 at yahoo.co.in Sun Mar 30 21:41:27 2008 From: amitrbasu50 at yahoo.co.in (Amit Basu) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] CPM & Paranoid Disorder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82633.83088.qm@web8512.mail.in.yahoo.com> I agree with dipanjan-da's observation because the police report has univocally saw the ghost of "naxalism" including the "ex" ones who are now into teaching. even with an overwhelming numerical majority in the state, CPM's paranoid disorder with "naxal menance" did not go away! this only proves the psychiatric theory to be correct that this IS paranoid disorder, which did not go away by accessing so much power. however, this is "Collective Paranoia" and SUPPLYING SO MUCH OF ANTI-PSYCHOTIC MEDICINE for long would be another governmental problem! also how medicines could be negotiated is another political problem!! amit basu radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Hi all, what else do you expect from a political party which has iron fist to throttle dissent and talk of freedom using the "intellectials " as front to dictatorship, be it China or West Bengal, dissent is always handled by the goons of the politburo with violent reprisals. Only issue now is the rest of the country is free of such goons, and vote share has gone down less than 5 percent of voters of the nation for the left partis by these tactics, their presence in Kerala is flip flop of no choice election after election as both the fronts have strong goons to take violence to suppress dissent. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: ranu ghosh Date: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: [Reader-list] pl go through To: reader-list at sarai.net > please circulate widely > > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:39:26 +0530 > From: "Abhee Dutt-Mazumder" > Subject: Fwd: Sibpur BESU > > > > > Dear Friends, > Why did students write on blank answer- scripts "Save BESU from > becoming a Nandigram"? > > The students of Sibpur BESU are facing an assault of the college > administration-local goons-police. The Vice-chancellor Nikhil Ranjan > Banerjea is orchestrating the assault, the aim of which is to > terrorize students into joining or supporting the students' wing of > the major ruling party. It is not an accident that all those who are > being arrested by the police are distinguished by their non-allegiance > to this students' organisation. The enthusiasm of the police is, no > doubt, linked to the fact that the son of Mohd. Selim, of the CPI(M), > is a student of BESU at present (not admitted through the Joint > Entrance Examinations, as reported). > > The evil nexus has cleverly used the incident of a brawl under the > effect of drink to go into the assault mode against the students, > while > (1) masking the real scenario, pretending that the question is > one of > discipline, and > (2) beating up non-SFI students mercilessly in the name of > enforcing order. > > The campus has been cut off and the media are not admitted in. So, > March 20-24, during which the students were continuously assaulted by > goons and the police, who even entered the girls' hostel, and the > authorities kept up a relentless pressure to join the SFI, little news > of the magnitude of the atrocities and the flagrant political thrust > of the BESU administration reached the media. > > Taken aback at first, the students of BESU have rallied back to > protest against the atrocities, returning blank sheets in the > examinations which commenced on March 24, and participating in a > sit-in at Metro channel of Esplanade. > > A fact-sheet prepared by the students is given below. Also attached > are letters written by the students to the VC and the Registrar, as > well as a copy of a mass petition against one Afaz-Uddin Ahmed. > > Please circulate widely. > > Dipanjan Rai Chaudhuri > > > FACTSHEET > > In chronological order: > > 07.09.2007: > A notice ( memo no. RDO-2/1387) had been issued by the registrar where > it was notified that four final year students (UG) and six 3rd year > students (UG) were suspended and instructed to vacate their respective > hostels with immediate effect for an indefinite period of time. > But in > the aforementioned notice, lots of irregularities have been found, > which are mentioned below: > · It is clearly mentioned in the notice that inquiries against > the students alleged to have committed misdemeanors, were pending. > Then, we would like to know, how, without proper inquiry, were the 10 > students slapped with such harsh punishment? > · We have found that one of the accused students viz. Tanmoy > Chatterjee (3rd yr. Metallurgy) was not present in the university > campus on the date on which alleged incident took place. He had in > fact, gone to visit his friend's ailing mother, at Peerless Hospital. > Then how did his name crop up in the notice? > > > So it is explicit that the accused 10 students had been wrongly framed > and suspended on the basis of some fabricated allegations. We are > amazed and upset at this sort of bias on the part of the authority. > > 12.12. 2007: > " A second year student (U.G) named Afaz-Uddin Ahmed of the Dept. of > Information Technology is fomenting trouble & violence in the > University campus for the last one year. He, with the help of some of > his batch mates is explicitly trying to disturb the peace & > harmony of > the University campus by infusing dirty politics in the affairs > related to the students & inciting violence in the University campus, > thus denting the integrity among the students. It had been reported > to the concerned authority that he was found to behave in the most > unacceptable manner and even has the audacity to manhandle some of his > seniors. Presently he has taken his grudge to such an extent that he > is threatening his own batch mates of dire consequences if they do not > pay their "allegiance" to him. Now he has become so desperate that he > is even trying to scare them by threatening that he will take > "revenge" by waging his animosity against their families. It has been > heard that a guardian of his batch mate has received threatening calls > from an anonymous phone number, which is unprecedented in the history > of this 150 year old institution. There is no denying the fact that > his activities are unbecoming of a student of such a reputed > institution. > We had lodged several complaints against him to the concerned > authority, but unfortunately all have gone unheeded. If he is testing > our patience, we would like to make it clear that we will no longer > remain as silent victims of his inhuman acts. It is unfortunate to > inform you that his motive of gaining narrow political mileage is > explicitly getting the patronage of some of the office bearers of > BESU, as found in yesterday night's incident at hostel 9.But > unfortunately the University authority is trying to overlook his > heinous activities because of his outside political support. " > (From a > mass petition by the students) > When we drew the attention of our faculty members to this matter and > submitted a mass petition to the Dean of Students (PICSA) on > 12.12.2007, the authority came under pressure to act and > constituted a > disciplinary committee. But on the very day (13th December, 2007), > Students' Federation of India staged a rally and intentionally > fomented panic among the students. And the result was imposition of > section 144 in the campus, a black day for us. The "Afaaz" issue, > thus, died down. > > 19.3.2008: > Three 2nd year students returning to their hostels at around 10 p.m. > were ragged and racially abused by few boarders of "Wolfenden Hall", > as they were natives from outside West Bengal. They were physically > assaulted and two 2nd year students sustained head injuries. Police > forces were called in to control the situation. However, the boarders > of "Wolfenden Hall" continued to resort to violent means in spite of > the presence of police and faculty members. Two of the Wolfenden > boarders were caught red handed with hockey sticks (it is to be noted > that there is no hockey team in our university) by the faculty > members. But, on insistence of Prof.Bhawani Prasad Mukhopadhay, the > two were released with no charges being levied against them. > > > 20.3.2008: > In the evening, party cadres brutally assaulted few students at the > first gate of the university in front of R.A.F. SFI supporters helped > them by pointing out the targets. When the students appealed to the > R.A.F to take action, they resorted to indiscriminate > "lathicharge" on > the students. They even entered Richardson Hall without the permission > of the hostel superintendent and assaulted the boarders, including a > physically handicapped student. More than twenty students were > seriously injured. The same act was repeated in Sengupta as well as > Sen Halls. The dual policy adopted by the R.A.F. was apparent from the > ease with which cadres were roaming freely and threatening us in the > presence of R.A.F. In the mean time SFI supporters attacked 2nd year > hostels. The 2nd year students were so terrified that they sought our > help. We took them to our hostels, called our University doctors and > provided them with First Aid. Strangely, the authority's idea of > assistance was an order to vacate the hostels near midnight. Buses > were provided to transport us to the Howrah station. We narrated the > ordeal of the 2nd year students to police. They assured us that the > 2nd year students would be able to reach their hostels. So we boarded > the bus provided by the authority. But unfortunately when we reached > Howrah Station we came to know that the hapless 2nd year students were > arrested by police charging them of loitering in the campus after > 10-30 pm. > > You can surely understand that we, the students > have become victims of SFI-Authority-Police nexus whose sole > motive is > to de-stabilize our esteemed Institution. Our very existence in the > University campus is at stake. We would like to vehemently protest > against the barbaric treatment given to the ordinary students. > > > 24.03.2008: > Students were put under virtual house arrest, and their free movement > was restricted by the police. They even threatened students of dire > consequences, which included threatening them with initiation of legal > proceedings and disrupting their careers, for no valid reason. > > The press was not allowed to enter the campus and report the incidents > occurring inside. Even the students were not allowed to go near the > press and express their views. This constitutes a gross violation of > human rights. > > > We would like to appeal > to you to bring this to the attention of the nation at large and help > us to bring the offenders to justice. > > > > > Withwarm regards, > > Students (U.G) > > BESU, Shibpur > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Dr. Amit Ranjan Basu BE 318, Salt Lake, Kolkata-700064, India. Tel: (Mob)+91-098833 06653 (Res)+91-033-2334 9805 --------------------------------- Bring your gang together - do your thing. Start your group. From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 23:56:56 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:56:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A national seminar on the Madrasa Reform by ArkFoundation In-Reply-To: References: <2076f31d0803281853ib84191an1733d097bace0de6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0803301126i2029c2f4u5c46ca1b9ec63869@mail.gmail.com> Right. Imagine if everyone began displaying the pathologies that some on this list do, what a tragedy that would be. A On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 4:48 PM, wrote: > Insha Allah, > > I hope the educationist will realise that education is not only of > religious scriptures but also of being good humans, to be responsible, > responsive to fellow living beings, not paranoid about other ways of life. > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: arshad amanullah > Date: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: [Reader-list] A national seminar on the Madrasa Reform by > ArkFoundation > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Cc: Ark Foundation > > > A National Seminar > > On > > "MADRASAS AND EDUCATIONAL NEEDS OF THE INDIAN MUSLIMS" > > > > Organised By > > Ark Foundation > > With Support From > > National University of Educational Planning and Administration (NUEPA) > > On > > Saturday 29th & Sunday 30th March, 2008 > > Timings: 9:00am- 05:30pm > > Venue: Arts and Aesthetics Auditorium, Jawaharlal Nehru > > University, New > > Delhi > > Programme > > SESSION –I: 09:00 – 10:00 AM > > > > INAUGURATION > > Chief Guest: Dr. Karimi Najfi, Cultural Councilor, Islamic > > Republic of > > Iran, New Delhi > > Chair: Prof. Basir Ahmad Khan, PVC, IGNOU, New Delhi > > Welcome Note: JNU, New Delhi > > Presentation: "Evolution of Madrasa Education System in India" > > by Ark > > Research Team > > Prof. Shahid Mahdi: Prof. Shahid Mahdi, Deputy Chairperson, ICCR, > > New Delhi > > Vote of Thanks: NUEPA, New Delhi > > > > ------------Tea Break: 10:00 AM -10:30 AM--------- > > > > SESSION –II: 10:30 AM- 1:00 PM > > > > Theme: SCOPE AND RELEVANCE OF MADRASA REFORM > > Chair: Prof. M .H. Qureshi, JNU, New Delhi > > Presentations – > > > > Prof. Imtiyaz Ahmad: The State, the Madrasa and the Need for > > ReformMaulana Saud Alam Qasmi:Need for Introduction of Modern > > Education in Madrasa > > Dr. Yogender Sikand: Relevance of Reform in Madrasa Education > > System in > > Present Socio-Economic Context > > Dr Ishtiaq Danish: Reforms in Madrasa Education System: Problems and > > Prospects > > > > -------Lunch Break: 1: 00 PM - 2: 00 PM----------- > > > > SESSION –III: 2:00 PM- 3:30 PM > > > > Theme: MODERNIZATION OF MADRASAS: STATE & OTHER AGENCIES' > > INTERVENTIONChair & Discussant:Dr. S. Irfan Habib, NISTADS, Delhi > > Presentations: > > > > Justice M.S. A. Siddique: Government Initiatives to Modernize Madrasa > > Education System & to Central Madrasa > > Board. > > Prof. Basir Ahmad Khan: IGNOU's Initiatives to Promote Modern > > EducationIn Most Backward Areas & Offering of Professional Courses > > to Madrasa > > Graduates. > > Dr. Nirja Shukla:NCERT's Initiatives Towards Modernization of Madrasa > > Education System > > Deepika:Jan Vikas and Jamiat-Ulama-I-Hind's Experiment in Gujarat > > Daya Ram:The Agha Khan Foundation Initiatives > > > > ------------Tea Break: 03:30 PM -03:45 PM--------- > > > > SESSION –IV: 3:45 PM – 5:30 PM > > > > Theme: EXPERIMENTS WITH REFORMS WITHIN MADRASA INSTITUTIONS: > > VOICES FROM > > THE GROUND > > Chair: Dr. Yogender Sikand, Expert and Freelance Writer > > Presentations: > > > > Dr. Roger Jeffery: Need to Update Madrasa Curriculum: The Bijnor > > Experience > > Maulana Haziq: Experiments in Higher Islamic Education > > Maulana Fazlur Rahim Mojaddidi: Combining Religious and Technical > > Education: A Cases Study of Jamiatul Hidaya Jaipur > > Qasim Rasool Falahi: Experiences and Challenges in Educating Isolated > > Communities > > Qazi Shirajudin: Experiments in the Mewaat Region > > Zubair Hudwai: Participatory approach of Ulama in Madrasa > > reform: Kerala > > experience > > > > Day -2 > > > > SESSION –V: 9:00 AM – 11:00 AM > > > > Theme: EXPLORING UNIFORMITY IN THE MADRASA EDUCATION & > > CURRICULUM CHANGES > > Chair: Prof. Akhtar Mahdi, JNU, New Delhi > > Presentations: > > > > Prof. Aktharul Wasey: Relevance and scope of uniformity in Madrasa > > Education & Curriculum Changes in Present Socio-Economic Context > > Maulana Salman Nadvi: Hamara Talimi Nisab Kaisa Ho?: In Search > > of a New > > Curriculum > > Dr Mohmad Arshad: Major Trends in Madrasa Education and > > possibility of > > Reform > > Arshad Alam: Understanding Madrasa Curriculum in The Present Time > > Dr. Fauzan Ahmad: Madrasa Curriculum: An Overview > > > > ------------Tea Break: 11:00 AM – 11:15 AM--------- > > > > SESSION –VI: 11:15 AM – 01:00 PM > > > > Theme: MEDIA AND REFORM IN MADRASA EDUCATION SYSTEM > > Chair: Nilofar Sohrawardi, Freelance Journalist > > Presentations: > > > > Zafar Agha: What & Why of Madrasa Reform and Indifference Of Media > > Waris Mazhari: The Recent Deoband Conclave On Terrorism And Its > > Echo In The > > Media > > Arshad Amanullah: The Madrasa Media: What Ails Them? > > > > > > ------------Lunch Break: 01:00 PM – 2:00 AM--------- > > > > NATIONAL CONSULTATION > > On > > MADRASA EDUCATION SYSTEM: TOWARDS DRAFTING A ROADMAP FOR REFORM > > 2:00 PM – 5:30 PM > > > > Chair: Dr. Ali Jawed, Director, NCPUL, New Delhi > > Agenda: > > i. Recommendations of the Seminar > > ii. A New Syllabus for Madrasa Education System > > iii. Identifying Problems and Setting Goals > > iv. A Time-bound Action Plan > > v. Any other issue related to the development of Roadmap > > > > Discussant:Dr. Rizwan Qaiser, Associate Professor, JMI, New Delhi > > > > Concluding Remark:Dr. Shakeel Ahmad Khan, Director General, NYKS, > > New Delhi > > > > Vote of Thanks: Dr. Shaheen Ansari, Chairman, Ark Foundation, > > New Delhi. > > > > For detailas, contact:Sneha (09868086702), Ifat (9868512776), Farfat > > (09212759122), Ather (09810939748) & Arshad Amanullah (09911194488) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 31 01:07:02 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:37:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's Post Musharraf Policy by Murtaza Shibli In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0803301126i2029c2f4u5c46ca1b9ec63869@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <187989.1644.qm@web27801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Dear friends, I am enclosing my essay on the possible new developments on Pakistan's Kashmir policy. The whole essay is attached as pdf, but i am also putting a summary below as well. best, Murtaza Shibli ‘Real Democracy’: Pakistan’s Post-Musharraf Kashmir Policy Murtaza Shibli Editor Kashmir Affairs, London [www.kashmiraffairs.org] ‘Era of real democracy has begun in the country.’[1] Pervez Musharraf Summary The recently concluded elections in Pakistan have led to the decline in the fortunes of the General-turned-President Pervez Musharraf. Although he is still hanging onto power thanks to open American support, his influence on the country’s political decision making has weakened significantly. Much before the new government headed by Prime Minister Makhdoom Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani took over; Musharraf’s much publicised Kashmir Policy was on the wane. There seems to be a consensus evolving among the leading politicians and the Army about the unsuitability of the current Kashmir policy that saw Pakistan retreating from its support for the UN Resolutions and right to self determination. Even Musharraf’s former political partners and colleagues from the Pakistan Muslim League (Q) have taken umbrage with the beleaguered President on the issue. Sensing the mood, the pro-Musharraf Kashmiri groups and activists have gone on defensive; shifting their allegiances in order to stay relevant in the new political milieu. Some of them have apologised for their support to Musharraf or criticized him for his ‘failed’ Kashmir policy. Although pro-Pakistan and anti-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders, including the Hurriyat Conference (G) leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, are jubilant over the developments, Kashmiris are watching with caution. Pakistani politicians like Asif Zardari, Mian Nawaz Sharif and others have issued some statements that smack of traditional rhetoric, while the new Army Chief General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani has also hinted at the policy shift. Despite all this, there isn’t much Pakistan can do with regards to Kashmir; given its current internal crisis and unprecedented American pressure. Pakistan cannot afford to cease the ‘peace process’, but it might gradually retreat to its traditional position; increase its diplomatic efforts and seek international mediation and offer limited but symbolic support for the Kashmiri resistance. The progress on the issue can only be achieved if India is willing to shift from its maximalist position and offer some concrete and sensible options for the solution of the problem. Otherwise, the thaw that was achieved during the last few years in India-Pakistan relations cannot be sustained for long and, as in the past, Kashmir could vitiate the atmosphere with dangerous consequences. --------------------------------- [1] The News, Pakistan, 24 March 2008 --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Inbox. From tasveerghar at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 12:12:04 2008 From: tasveerghar at gmail.com (Tasveer Ghar) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:12:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fellowships 2008: Call for Proposals Message-ID: <484c1050803302342i2a707837r489462cbe6d5cd39@mail.gmail.com> Tasveer Ghar Fellowships 2008: Call for Proposals "Kaleidoscopic Sites and Sights: The Printed Visual Culture/s of Religious Pluralism" Last Date of Submission: May 10, 2008 We are pleased to invite proposals for our second short-term fellowships involving the collection and documentation of unique forms of popular visual arts of India with a focus on religious pluralism and sacred sites in India. The estimated duration of the fellowship is 6 months, starting July 2008. At the end of the fellowship period, collected specimens will be digitized and virtually exhibited along with an accompanying image essay on the website of Tasveer Ghar. Prospective applicants can take a look at the website for examples of image essays that have already been posted. The theme for 2008: Kaleidoscopic Sites and Sights, The Printed Visual Cultures of Religious Pluralism What does the visual culture of modern India's much-vaunted religious diversity look like? This is the critical question that we pose to prospective applicants to the 2008 Tasveerghar Fellowships. Over the millennia, numerous religious traditions, practices and institutions have arrived, evolved, and come to co-exist, as well as to enter into conflict in the subcontinent. Many studies have documented the verbal bases as well as products of religious pluralism, syncretism and co-habitation. Yet, we know very little about the visual consequences of the coming together and co-development of faiths and belief systems that have ranged from the iconographic and the aniconic to the iconoclastic. How have these been produced and sustained through the printed products of mechanical reproduction such as religious posters, street hoardings, calendars, pilgrimage paraphernalia and other printed ephemera? How are shared visual idioms and vocabularies developed through the coming together of faiths around sacred shrines and pilgrimages, personages and public events? How are these images incorporated and looked upon in the everyday lives of people, and imbued with meaning by diverse groups? Most importantly, what role does the production, circulation and consumption of such visual 'ephemera' play in underwriting a culture of religious pluralism that has survived and transformed into multiple shapes and domains over the millennia, e.g. by means of new technologies or migration? Arguably, religious pluralism has cleared the ground for the creation of a culture of secularism in India, and also acts as a break on the more egregious consequences of religious orthodoxy, political extremism and cultural (trans)nationalism. How do the visual cultures of religious pluralism inform the visual practices of secularism, and do they offer a critique of the visual culture of religious fundamentalism? How might these visual ephemera challenge and expand our understandings of religious interchange and conflict? In what ways and for what reasons has the notion of pluralism undergone redefinition? These are some of the questions to which we seek answers through collections of images and analyses in the form of visual essays. We would like our Fellows to generate ethnographies of images, explore new patterns and chains of seeing and being displayed. By ethnographies, what we mean is a "thick description" for each collected image: not just contexts of production, but of circulation, usage, and so on; an account of how each image might fit into a particular "inter-ocular" universe. We encourage our contributors to be as creative and imaginative as the popular visual cultures of South Asia have been. Before you write your proposal, please read our Frequently Asked Questions to get some practical tips on applying for this fellowship, such as who is eligible to apply, what does the fellowship provide, what should your proposal contain, and so on. It would also help to look at some of the already posted visual essays on the website based on the last year's fellowship work. See details: http://tasveerghar.net/call.html Frequently Asked Questions: http://tasveerghar.net/faqs.html Download the details in MS Word format: http://tasveerghar.net/desktop/TGCFP08.doc Tasveer Ghar's past virtual galleries: http://tasveerghar.net/gallery.html Also see our recent Visual Essay: Remediation: Iconic Images and Everyday Spaces - 'Female Film Stars' in Print Media: by Madhuja Mukherji http://tasveerghar.net/2007/madhuja/ Looking forward to receive your response and ideas. Christiane Brosius Manishita Dass Sumathi Ramaswamy Yousuf Saeed -- http://www.tasveerghar.net From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 12:51:04 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:51:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [timteamclearinghouse] Updates on Kerala toursim events In-Reply-To: <642df8d90803310008n3ba0de17kb10fa3766c7c1d03@mail.gmail.com> References: <642df8d90803310004l1932b062tf3d973ea00859d96@mail.gmail.com> <642df8d90803310008n3ba0de17kb10fa3766c7c1d03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470803310021v76935421ge7731bc308a54fc0@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 14:25:00 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:25:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The new great game Message-ID: <4fcaee300803310155r77e00f98p488eea9c7037a7d5@mail.gmail.com> An Indian View: How Pakistani Liberals Thrashed Their Homeland Almost all Pakistani liberals, including member of women's and human rights organizations, journalists, writers, and lawyers, are celebrating a divine "national mandate". They have dodged the obvious question: Why did the majority of Pakistani voters ignore, perhaps even boycott, the elections? And don't give me the self-serving claims that fear of violence and suicide bombings discouraged a large number of people. A Majority of Pakistanis didn't vote because elections here simply give a democratic veneer to rule by feudal and tribal coteries whose nepotism and corruption is legendary. By S. SATHANANTHAN Wednesday, 19 March 2008. WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM NEW DELHI, India—A few days after the February 2008 general elections, I met an acquaintance - an investment banker - in Karachi who looked ecstatic. He bubbled, "these elections have been so cathartic for the entire nation". With a pathetically low 30% turnout of voters, I puzzled how he concluded the "entire" nation had participated in the experience. He is not alone in slurring over the damaging implications of the low voter turnout. Almost all liberals - who include member of women's and human rights organizations, journalists, writers, lawyers and assorted professionals - are thrashing about to divine a "national mandate" in the election results. They have dodged the obvious question: Why did the majority of Pakistani voters ignore, perhaps even boycott, the elections? Instead the liberals trotted out self-serving claims that fear of violence and suicide bombings discouraged a large number of people. About an hour after my encounter with the investment banker, my wife and I were on our way back home in a metro cab. As the car cruised down the new flyover that meets with Shahrah-i-Faisal we saw a couple of trucks over-flowing with agitated men, shouting slogans and waving flags. We casually asked the driver what that was about; and words cascaded out of his mouth as if he had been waiting for the flimsiest excuse to unburden his misery. "Just wait and see all the politicos will come out of the woodwork to make our lives hell. We don't need any elections for 20 years, just a disciplined ruler. We are not made for elections, we need the stick to keep us in line. And if after 20 years we still haven't learnt then I would say we hand the country over to America. What else can we do? But at least let's give it a try for 20 years." He wanted to continue: "I am not a pro-Musharraf man but I have to say if he put ten per cent in his pocket he put ninety per cent into this country. We can see it all around. Never in my life had I seen the highways so safe - women drive on them at night". I think the 70% of the country that didn't vote is like Attaullah, our taxi driver. They don't believe elections serve any useful purpose for good reasons. Elections have entrenched the status quo; they bestowed a democratic veneer to rule by feudal and tribal coteries whose nepotism and corruption is legendary, whilst the 70% remained mired in poverty. For weeks and months liberals cried themselves hoarse demanding "free and fair" elections. They made dire predictions that pre-poll rigging had already begun and alleged darkly in private that President Pervez Musharraf has received expert advise on the subject from U.S. President George W. Bush's campaign staff, who deftly executed pre-poll rigging in Florida during the 2000 U.S. presidential election. Their own exalted duty, asserted some liberals, is to minimize manipulations so that the 2008 general elections accurately reflect the will of the Pakistani people; but in fact they hoped the voters, muddled by the sympathy factor following the PPP leader Benazir Bhutto's assassination, would usher in a PPP government. But liberals also feared that, despite their strenuous efforts, President Musharraf and Pakistan Muslim League (PMLQ) would nevertheless rig the elections in their favor, as they were alleged to have done in 2002. Some liberals gleefully looked forward to again wielding the democracy stick against the President and the anticipated new PML(Q) government. But Gen. Musharraf, in the capacity of Chief Executive, had delineated the next two stages in his road map to build the foundations of democracy. In the second stage he intended to hold the offices of both Chief of Army and President, which he did. In the final stage, he said he would doff the uniform and ensure free and fair general elections. He kept his word. And to the consternation of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) and Muslim League-Nawaz (PMLN), he blocked their rigging ploys. By all accounts, the 2008 general elections were more free and fair than those held by the two parties when they alternated in power during the 1990s. Born-Again Democrats? Having screamed for genuine elections, the liberals have to live with the results: namely, the return of PPP's Asif Zardari and PML(N)'s Nawaz Sharif, both of whom have controversial antecedents in Pakistani politics. Almost seven years ago, columnist-turned-politician-turned-columnist-turned-politician again, Ayaz Amir, had posed the following rhetorical questions: "Does any newspaper-reading man in Pakistan doubt Benazir's and Asif's guilt? Does anyone think they got no commission from the Swiss firm, SGS-Cotecna? Does anyone doubt the financial acumen of the then ruling couple who turned Islamabad into an open auction mart where every deal, no matter how outrageous, was on offer provided the right palms were greased?" Amir recalled, "the longstanding love affair between GHQ and the Sharifs (the Sharifs having been discovered and groomed for great things by General Zia himself, Lt-Gen Jillani, Lt-Gen Hamid Gul and a whole line of minor geniuses in ISI)...The Sharifs' notions of government were intensely private: which is to say, have your own man at every key post. They began with commissioners and police DIGs, the dregs of both services pandering to their whims and enriching themselves in the process ... In the person of Justice Qayyum at the Lahore High Court they had the closest thing they could get to a personal judge. Division of family assets, balancing of huge bank loans against dummy collateral, tightening the noose around Asif Zardari and Benazir: the only judge who could handle these sensitive matters was Justice Qayyum". And Amir concluded: "The common factor between both parties is gangster-ism and corruption. Shahbaz Sharif resembled nothing so much as a Mafioso don. What does Asif Zardari look like? In any Godfather sequel he can easily get a part. As for moneymaking it is hard to figure out who beat whom: the PPP leadership or the Muslim League? My own guess is the Sharifs were professionals: subtle about their money. Zardari left a trail, which goes all the way to Rockwood, French submarines, Amer Lodhi, and my favorite grand admiral, Mansur-ul-Haq." (Dawn, April 20, 2001). Liberals have been baying for President Musharraf's resignation partly because he, as an army general, overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in October 1999. But Rifaat Hamid Ghani documented the near universal welcome people had extended to Gen. Musharraf at that time: "There is no doubt the ouster of Mr. Nawaz Sharif ... was welcomed, and the primary reason was the constitutional amendment Mr. Sharif was seeking (and which politicos like Mr. Kasuri and Syeda Abida Hussain had endorsed) that united civil and moral legislative and executive inquisitorial powers in the prime minister's office, in what was touted as the paradigm of a true Emir. The common Pakistani, as distinct from those gracing the treasury benches, had no truck with twisting religion into justifying totalitarianism. They could see the way elected parliament was leaning and the military takeover was a happy release from Mian Nawaz Sharif's emerging fascistic theocracy." (Dawn, Oct. 25, 2004). Benazir had not been far behind. She donned the headscarf to placate Islamists; and her government provided funds and granted diplomatic recognition to the Afghan Taliban regime in 1995. During the run-up to the 2008 elections liberals wanted the Pakistani people to believe that the same Zardari and Sharif are in effect the 'farishtas' who would lead the country to the promised democracy-land; that they could resurrect the pre-Emergency judiciary, set its independence in stone and force President Musharraf out of office. But the PPP had politicized the judiciary in 1996 when Benazir appointed her favorite as Chief Justice ignoring more senior judges. Sharif's subsequent run-ins with judges do not instill confidence either. "During his second stint in power with his a 'massive mandate'," reminisced Ardesher Cowasjee, "Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif wished to rid himself of an awkward Chief Justice of Pakistan, Sajjad Ali Shah. So he consulted his confidantes. On November 5, 1997, as recounts Gohar Ayub Khan in his recently published book, Glimpses into the Corridors of Power, Nawaz "asked me to accompany him to the PM's House. In the car, the PM put his hand on my knee and said, "Gohar Sahib, show me the way to arrest the Chief Justice and keep him in jail for a night". Naturally, Gohar was "shocked" and advised him against even thinking about it. But deep-thinking Nawaz thought further, and on November 27, 1997, he had his goons physically storm the building of the Supreme Court of Pakistan while Sajjad Ali Shah was hearing a contempt case brought against him (Nawaz) and then proceeded to engineer, with the help of Sajjad's brother judges, the successful removal of their Chief Justice." (Dawn, Aug. 5, 1997). As Masud Mufti noted, "The parties do not have an effective or long term commitment to democracy, an independent judiciary, merit and public welfare ... [they offered] lukewarm support to the lawyers' movement for the restoration of Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry and other judges." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). The track record of PPP and PML(N) are grotesquely undemocratic; and they have blocked and will continue to block an independent judiciary that could challenge their authoritarian excesses. To cover up their ill-advised opposition to President Musharraf, after the elections liberals are desperately wriggling to reinvent Zardari and Sharif as 'democrats'. Ayesha Siddiqa enthusiastically dubbed the polity a "democracy in transition." (Dawn, Feb. 28, 2008), presumably under the elected leaders Zardari and Sharif, together with Awami National Party (ANP)'s Asfandyar Wali Khan and lesser figures, if at all they form a coalition government. Self-aggrandized, another analyst and former foreign secretary, Tanvir Ahmad Khan: "Let there be no mistake. We are resurrecting a state that all but perished" (Dawn, Mar. 1, 2008). "The importance of Mr. Zardari," gushed S.A. Qureshi, "will be determined by his success in spelling out a charismatic vision for each geographical area [of the country] and how he intends to deliver it." (Dawn, Feb. 27, 2008). Worse still, in their haste to lay claim to the curative effects of democracy, Pakistani liberals distorted the victory of the ANP in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP); they made the outlandish contention that the defeat of the alliance of religious parties, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), proved once again that the vast majority of voters reject Islamists. But extremists are not exclusive to religious parties. In fact they are very much in control of mainstream PPP and PML(N) and, as we saw above, are far more skilled in promoting Islamisation than the flatfooted Islamists in religious parties. What the NWFP election results in fact show is that local Pukhtun nationalism over-rode general Islamic identity, a development with important parallels to the primacy of Bengali nationalism in the former East Pakistan. The hapless liberals have yet to discover this. The fact of the matter is that liberals may reinvent till they are blue in the face but neither Zardari nor Sharif would ever become the stuff of democracy. When confronted with this reality, they fall back on what is now the post-election 'wisdom': holding regular elections, claim liberals, is the indispensable learning process leading to a democratic polity. This assertion raises a host of questions. On Ballot-Box Democracy Are elections society-neutral? That is, do they have the same or similar outcomes irrespective of the history, culture and class structure of diverse societies? Even a cursory survey of countries would show this is untrue. What is true is that elections - ballot-box democracy - legitimize and entrench the status quo, which is particularly problematical in pre-modern (feudal, semi-feudal and tribal) and authoritarian societies. Many Pakistani liberals routinely point to India as evidence of how people by participating in regular elections, uninterrupted by military rule, schooled themselves in democracy. This utterly absurd parallel ignores the dominance of the modern entrepreneurial class, which is buttressed by a burgeoning middle class that inherited the crucial lesson of the anti-colonial freedom struggle: namely, that rights are never given; they are always taken. The third condition is that no single ethnic group dominates the state and armed forces. The single largest group, the Hindi-speaking people, is not more than 35 per cent of the population in the most optimistic assessment; in effect every ethnic group and nationality is a minority. So the Hindi belt learned the hard way it cannot ride roughshod over other peoples and ethnicities (after early bruising attempts at Hindi hegemony, spearheaded by using Hindi as official language, failed in the 1950s); in the process the major non-Hindi peoples and nationalities carved out the political space to reform the post-colonial state; and the process continues today. The modern class structure, historical experience of struggle, weak ethnic hegemony and a reformed post-colonial state constitute the foundation of the culture of democracy that has taken root in India; these conditions have no parallel in Pakistan. The appropriate comparison is with Sri Lanka, which is a living proof that ballot-box democracy, in the absence of modernist pre-conditions, would in all likelihood deliver the opposite of genuine democracy. Regular, largely free and fair elections have been held in that country for more than a century (beginning in 1933) and incumbent parties have been regularly put out of office. The military never took power. The population has a very high literacy level (92%). But the dominant class almost exclusively from the Sinhala ethnic group is a semi-feudal oligarchy steeped in pre-modern pageantry. The historical experience of 'peaceful' transfer of power from the British to Sri Lankans in 1948 was devoid of the lessons of struggles for political rights. And the Sinhala ethnic group is a dominant 70 per cent of the population and controls the state and armed forces. So it confidently rejects reforms of the centralized, unitary post-colonial state that are essential to accommodate the democratic aspirations of other peoples in the island. All four factors combined to smother prospects, if any, for the development of a culture of democracy, the absence of which is the main reason for the growth of armed resistance by Sinhalese working classes (1971). Tamils (1976) and, more recently, by Muslims (1989). Not surprisingly the unreformed post-colonial state has, under guise of fighting "terrorism", transmuted into a military-bureaucratic authoritarian state. Sri Lanka's pre-modern class structure, the paucity of anti-colonial struggles, ethnic hegemony and the unreformed post-colonial state have strong parallels in Pakistan. >From its birth, Pakistan has been under either bureaucratic-authoritarian or military-authoritarian regimes. The elected assemblies serve as the institutional interface between the regimes and the people and are dominated by feudal and tribal leaders and notables, who indulged in the charade of ballot-box democracy while collaborating with successive regimes to legitimize their exercise of political power and to feather their own nests. For historical and cultural reasons the Pakistani people did not inherit the lessons of anti-colonial struggles in British India. The 65 per cent strong Punjabi ethnic group controls the state and the armed forces to the detriment of the democratic rights of other ethnic groups. To consolidate its power, the Punjabi ethnic group retained the centralized post-colonial state virtually unchanged and further concentrated power in Islamabad. As in Sri Lanka, in Pakistan too the culture of democracy is non-existent not despite ballot-box democracy but in many ways because of it. Perhaps the Pakistani liberals' most glaring duplicity is their willingness to mislead the people of Pakistan into believing that the country has a political party system on which foundation a free and fair election-based democracy could be built. The cruel reality is that so-called political parties are feudal outfits that autocratic feudal/tribal rulers control with an iron fist and, therefore, cannot deliver the democracy dividend. In a refreshing break from the liberals' shibboleth, Kunwar Idris made forthright observations after the 2008 elections about the acutely undemocratic rule of succession by inheritance in the major parties: "The mantle of the PPP's leadership has fallen on Benazir's widower Asif Zardari till their son Bilawal Bhutto Zardari...comes of age. Sibling Shahbaz Sharif will head the Muslim League's parliamentary group until Nawaz Sharif is constitutionally eligible to become prime minister for a third term. Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi is succeeding his aging cousin and brother-in-law, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, as the president of his faction of the Muslim League while their sons Wajahat Hussain and Munis Elahi wait in the wings. The leadership of Wali Khan's ANP and Samad Achakzai's MAP has also been inherited by their sons. Amir Haider Hoti, who has been nominated to become the chief minister of NWFP, is also a youth of Wali Khan's family. Religious parties, with the rare exception of the Jamaat-i-Islami, are similarly mired in feudal inheritance practices. Members of the councils or caucuses of parties who ought to promote inner-party democracy "have hardly ever shown any inclination to elect their leaders for they themselves are nominated by the party bosses and not elected by the general body of members." In short, "the difference between a prime minister and a military ruler is one of origin and not of values or accountability." Idris concludes: "The parties which are not democratically organized, quite obviously, are neither qualified nor inclined to establish democracy in the country. They cannot safeguard the fundamental rights of the citizens ... when their own members do not have them." (Dawn, Mar. 9, 2008). Adds Masud Mufti: "More than a 100 political parties still follow the same dictatorial patterns that revolve around a single person, or family. Their epicenter is active in dubious deals with the establishment to the complete exclusion of other members." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). But liberals and particularly human rights and civil liberties activists effectively whitewashed the feudal monoliths as democratic political institutions. None of the liberals, either individually or through their organizations, has campaigned to expose the anti-democratic dinosaurs that the political parties actually are. Indeed there was not a whimper of protest from liberals, including the much-touted legal fraternity, against the autocratic rule and succession by inheritance within the parties. Instead they have championed the parties as hallowed vehicles of democracy and betrayed the people's fundamental rights, largely because liberals themselves are rooted in the same feudal/tribal social milieu. President Musharraf's political modernization project threatens their archaic world. Not surprisingly they exploited his unwise confrontation with the judiciary to undermine his authority and thereby discredit his vision for a far-reaching structural change. Towards Structural Change The core issue of democracy in Pakistan is structural change, which, in the context of politics, are always both cause and consequence of power struggles, both internal and external power struggles. Power struggles throw up losers and winners; and losers often grow into implacable enemies; and President Musharraf earned many of them. Islamists were quick to label Gen. Musharraf an American puppet dancing to orders from the Bush administration. The immediate reason was that he torpedoed the alliance between Sharif and the minority Islamist faction in the armed forces. Further reasons are that he banned extremist organizations between 1999 and 2001 and launched the war against Jihadis. The liberals, pathetically oblivious to this decisive power struggle in the country's history, joined the Islamists' chorus to pillory Gen. Musharraf as an unelected leader. It reached a crescendo post-9/11; they bereted him as an American stooge when he withdrew Pakistan's support for the Afghan Taliban regime. Almost simultaneously Gen. Musharraf, backed by the modernist majority faction, moved against Islamists within civil society who challenged the army. These are armed, battle-hardened Pakistani Jihadis who returned from Afghanistan flushed with victory over the Red Army and obsessed with repeating the success against the Pakistani army and ushering in an Islamic revolution in the country. A few benchmarks of that power struggle are the assassination attempts against President Musharraf, Waziristan Operation and siege of the Red Mosque; and suicide bombers; and the power struggle is continuing it to this day. Liberals, not known for a grasp of the dynamics of power, faulted President Musharraf for not dealing with Jihadis early on and, when he did take action, spun around to blame him for human rights violations! President Musharraf also attempted several other structural changes between 2000 and 2007. He proposed an amendment to blasphemy laws but without success. His attempt to remove the undemocratic religion column in passports similarly fell foul of the religious establishment. He succeeded to push through legislation to protect women's rights. He also eviscerated the dreaded district-level nexus between the police, bureaucracy and feudals in the inherited colonial administrative structure - which democratically elected previous leaders had left untouched – by introducing for the first time representative, elected local government institutions (Unions and Nazims) that transferred a modicum of political power to the poor and may well evolve into competing centers of people's power. This earned him the undying hatred of the feudal and religious forces, which intensified further when he abolished the moribund religious apartheid by ending the system of separate electorates for religious minorities. As part of educational reforms, he ordered school history textbooks be rewritten to remove mindless extremist and anti-Indian propaganda inserted during Gen. Zia-ul-Haq's rule. Indeed, by all accounts President Musharraf's path-breaking initiatives have improved bilateral relations with India. Over the years, President Musharraf's reforms have thrown up numerous enemies from the feudal, patriarchal and religious vested interests and anti-Indian lobbies. They can be found in the PPP and PML(N), in religious parties and civil society institutions – especially professionals' associations - and in the most conservative of occupations, the legal profession. The New Great Game President Musharraf made enemies outside Pakistan too. He faced a major challenge in 2003 when the U.S. invaded Iraq. Washington intensely pressured Islamabad to join the laughable "Coalition of the Willing". The U.S. bribed (loan write-offs) or coerced (aid cut-offs) most countries in that decrepit "Coalition" It is to the eternal credit of President Musharraf that he nimbly sidestepped American demands. For instance, at one stage he agreed to send troops under the umbrella of the OIC. Politically naïve liberals promptly moaned that President Musharraf was caving into U.S. pressure. But he calculated that diverse ideological stances of Muslim counties would not allow them to initiate such joint action and therefore Pakistan's participation cannot arise, which proved correct. Meanwhile Benazir, living in self-imposed exile, was busy convincing Washington and London that if she had been the Prime Minister, Pakistan would have naturally joined the "Coalition". Inevitably Washington took a jaundiced view of President Musharraf's determination to strike an independent furrow while, of course, making positive public pronouncements about his role as "ally" in the War Against Terror. In contrast, President Musharraf prioritized Pakistan's national interests when steering the ship of state through the choppy waters of the emerging New Great Game. His foreign policy decisions over time convinced Washington that under his leadership, Pakistan would not side with the U.S. and Britain in the unfolding New Great Game to contain Russian and Chinese influence in Central and West Asia. First, he refused to isolate Iran. Second, he pursued the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline in the face of stiff American opposition. President Musharraf further angered Americans be deepening Pakistan-China bilateral relations, offering Beijing naval facilities at Gwadar and extending nuclear cooperation. Perhaps the last straw was his success in gaining Observer Status for Pakistan in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). Russia and China are spearheading the SCO, which includes four other countries: Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan; Iran and India are also Observers. The SCO is widely perceived as a rising eastern counterweight to western security and economic groupings. To rub salt into the wounds, President Musharraf refused permission for western intelligence agencies to interrogate Dr AQ Khan and firmly rejected Washington's repeated demands that U.S. troops should be allowed into Pakistan to hunt down Osama bin Laden and his Taliban associates. But Anglo-Americans were not in a position to overthrow President Musharraf. Instead of a "regime change", they sought a "regime adjustment" in which he continues as President but is weakened sufficiently to serve their interests in the region. That is the logic underlying the two major demands of their sustained pro-democracy campaign. The first demand was that President Musharraf must doff his uniform; that would remove his power base in the army. The second, that he should hold free and fair elections expected to sweep away his political power base, the PML(Q). Washington and London couched their neo-imperialist demands in tear-jerking rhetoric about the welfare of the people of Pakistan. Anyone who believes that shibboleth should have his or her head thoroughly examined. For them, Pakistan is nothing more than a pawn in the New Great Game and Americans are looking for nothing less than a pliable regime in Islamabad with great urgency, given the debacles they face in Iraq and Afghanistan. As Harish Khare perceptively observed, "The Americans would want to enlarge their military presence in Pakistan. After all, it does not require any great diplomatic expertise to understand that the American carping over the 'free and fair' election in Pakistan is part of Washington's strategic design: the Musharraf regime must be kept on its toes, it should be continuously badgered into feeling that its legitimacy ultimately depends on American certificates of good conduct, and, having been rendered so vulnerable, it should be pressured into letting the American/NATO forces have the run of the Pakistan-Afghan border in pursuit of the Taliban militants." (The Hindu, Feb. 14, 2008). Pakistan's deracinated liberals - a ghastly hangover from the colonial past - willingly weighed in on the side of Anglo-Americans and operated primarily through human rights and civil liberties organizations and the English-language media. Nudged by U.S. and British diplomats, and not forgetful of western sources of funds and frills, before the 2008 elections liberals obediently harassed President Musharraf about his legitimacy and mindlessly cheered Benazir as the dyed-in-the-wool patriot and democrat. Blissfully ignorant of the unfolding realpolitik, journalists wrote reams on everything that's wrong in the country under the President. A human rights activist, Asma Jahangir, emailed "friends of Pakistan" worldwide ostensibly to pressure U.S. not to support President Musharraf but in fact to rally them against the President. Lawyers, led by Aitzaz Ahsan, repeatedly implored America to help re-establish the rule of law. Another activist, Hina Jilani, materialized opposite the doorstep - 10 Downing Street - of the erstwhile colonial ruler begging for "justice". Not to be outdone, Imran Khan and his former British wife Jemima joined the neo-colonial flotsam and jetsam in London. The celebrated liberal Benazir, ever willing to serve Anglo-American interests, obligingly let it be known that if she were Prime Minister she would allow U.S. intelligence agencies access to Dr A.Q. Khan (Dawn, Sept. 26, 2007) and invite U.S. troops into Pakistan to hunt Osama bin Laden. In short, she willingly prostrated herself as America's doormat; and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared that she couldn't see democracy in Pakistan without Benazir. So the Bush administration arm-twisted President Musharraf to grant her an amnesty against all charges and allow her to re-enter Pakistani politics. Washington's intentions were quite transparent. President Musharraf, weakened with the help from liberals, should remain at his post to prosecute the War on Terror and to keep the unruly politicians in line, with a little help from the army. Benazir was to take over as Prime Minister with control over foreign policy and prostitute Pakistan as the Anglo-American camp's 'cat's paw' in the New Great Game. By assassinating Benazir, the Al Qaeda threw into disarray the Bush administration's designs to bring Pakistan to heel. Zardari has reiterated PPP's support for the U.S. After the 2008 elections, Anglo-American diplomats in Islamabad are feverishly working to cobble together a puppet coalition government led by PPP and PML(N) as a counter weight to President Musharraf. What Next? My wife and filmmaker Sabiha Sumar ran into activists who had virulently demanded President Musharraf must reinstate the pre-Emergency judges. Sabiha: So will PPP reinstate the judges? Woman: That's just the point. Now they are saying that they won't. Sabiha: Sounds a bit like the Hudood Ordinances. Woman: Well that was different. Because they didn't have a two-third majority in Parliament. Sabiha: And they still have that excuse. Woman: But you see Nawaz Sharif is saying that he will reinstate the judges. So they [PPP] should agree with that. Sabiha: So why don't they? Woman: That's the thing! Sabiha: So I would rather go with the one who has done something like bring women into Parliament, make the Hudood Ordinance ineffective.... Woman 1 and 2 in chorus: Then why didn't he do more?! Woman: He could have done everything but he didn't. You know political parties don't have so much power. They have to be careful. But this man had all the powers then why didn't he just kill the jihadis. Woman's husband: And the thing is that they actually like him in India. [Editor's note: Visit the campuses of Chinese universities. Pakistan's Musharraf is hero to young Chinese women and men.] In Pakistan today liberals should be relieved that President Musharraf held free and fair elections. But they are not. The election results have forced liberals to confront their monumental folly of helping to elect despotic and corrupt rulers. So they are turning around and biting the President's leg, blaming him for not being a full-blooded dictator. President Musharraf is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Also, the warriors of democracy are faltering. Liberals are losing enthusiasm for re-instating that pillar of democracy - the judiciary - since the Bush administration has signaled its opposition. The PPP too is waffling on the issue. Speaking to the press, "Zardari parried several questions on issues like reinstatement of deposed judges ... the PPP leader said that the matters would be decided by parliament." (Dawn, Feb. 20, 2008). For the same reason, liberals' hysterical cries for the President's resignation have subsided. Thus lamented Ahmad Faruqui: "Sadly, many Pakistani political leaders and even some analysts have begun to argue that judicial restoration is not in the country's interest." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). And Zardari is backing the U.S. position and Sharif has also fallen in line. So, in their Mar. 9 Murree Summit Declaration they skillfully passed the buck on reinstating the judiciary to the National Assembly: "The restoration of deposed judges as on November 2, 2007, shall be brought about through a parliamentary resolution to be passed in the National Assembly within 30 days of the formation of the federal government." (Dawn, Mr. 10, 2008). Even a cursory knowledge of fratricidal Pakistani politics will show that the resolution will not see the light of day. In other words, reinstatement has been shelved as per instructions from the U.S. embassy. (Flat-footed analysts predictably missed the obvious sleight of hand and gloated the Declaration is a serious set back to President Musharraf.). The backsliding continues. While addressing the Sindh High Court Bar Association, Aitzaz Ahsan glibly abandoned the demand for justice for victims of the Karachi bloodbath: "I have forgotten the May 12 mayhem," he advised the lawyers, "and would like to request that it is better for all of us to forget that tragic incident." (Dawn, Mar. 6, 2008). From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Mar 31 16:42:31 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:12:31 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The new great game In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300803310155r77e00f98p488eea9c7037a7d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300803310155r77e00f98p488eea9c7037a7d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: very simplistic view is that life is simple and we make it complicated, for a common man in India or Pakistan, it is the same old politicians doling out slogans, herding them for slogan shouting on daily wages , food packet and ofcourse in India booze packets.The common man slowly but steadily has understood that all the bogus opinion makers parading as journalists in electronic visual media get quick rich, by the spins they give in opinion polls,become celebrities and common man has to work till his bacjbone gets tired who ever comes to power, more over the divided society on the caste communes, faith communes and regional communes as vote banks is now hijacked by the fuedal lords, of the different castes, regions and faiths, again it is the same kicdi that is not going to deliver any good of governance and hence the voter is cynical and the common refrain of common man is whoever rules, we have to work in our jobs come rain or sunshine, for our meals. Unless each of us realise the power of one, get motivated another one to be united, setting aside all our castes, faiths and regions, we will not get good governance,here the values imbibed Modi is exemplary when he says he is the Chief minister for five crore Gujratis, irrespective of their caste, faith or region where they come from to Gujarath for their livelihhod. Compare this to the slogans of Sonia Ki Jai, Rahul ki Jai and no Jai for the party to Bharat matha Ki Jai. Not a single slogan for Modi, that is the difference of indians voting and vote banks voting. In the present trend, you have a railway minister for Bihar, by Bihar and not for Bharath. You have a lame duck back entry home minister who has no guts to arrest a person for his goon acts as Home minister. A lame duck Prime minister who is keeping the kursi warm for the prince to occupy it, all in "true democratic process, what a tryst with destiny? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wali Arifi Date: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:27 pm Subject: [Reader-list] The new great game To: reader-list > An Indian View: How Pakistani Liberals Thrashed Their Homeland > > Almost all Pakistani liberals, including member of women's and > human rights > organizations, journalists, writers, and lawyers, are celebrating > a divine > "national mandate". They have dodged the obvious question: Why did the > majority of Pakistani voters ignore, perhaps even boycott, the > elections?And don't give me the self-serving claims that fear of > violence and suicide > bombings discouraged a large number of people. A Majority of > Pakistanisdidn't vote because elections here simply give a > democratic veneer to rule > by feudal and tribal coteries whose nepotism and corruption is > legendary. > > By S. SATHANANTHAN > > Wednesday, 19 March 2008. > > WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM > > > > > > NEW DELHI, India—A few days after the February 2008 general > elections, I met > an acquaintance - an investment banker - in Karachi who looked > ecstatic. > > He bubbled, "these elections have been so cathartic for the entire > nation". > > > With a pathetically low 30% turnout of voters, I puzzled how he > concludedthe "entire" nation had participated in the experience. > > He is not alone in slurring over the damaging implications of the > low voter > turnout. > > > > Almost all liberals - who include member of women's and human rights > organizations, journalists, writers, lawyers and assorted > professionals - > are thrashing about to divine a "national mandate" in the election > results.They have dodged the obvious question: Why did the > majority of Pakistani > voters ignore, perhaps even boycott, the elections? Instead the > liberalstrotted out self-serving claims that fear of violence and > suicide bombings > discouraged a large number of people. > > About an hour after my encounter with the investment banker, my > wife and I > were on our way back home in a metro cab. As the car cruised down > the new > flyover that meets with Shahrah-i-Faisal we saw a couple of trucks > over-flowing with agitated men, shouting slogans and waving flags. > > We casually asked the driver what that was about; and words > cascaded out of > his mouth as if he had been waiting for the flimsiest excuse to > unburden his > misery. "Just wait and see all the politicos will come out of the > woodworkto make our lives hell. We don't need any elections for 20 > years, just a > disciplined ruler. We are not made for elections, we > need the stick to keep us in line. And if after 20 years we still > haven'tlearnt then I would say we hand the country over to > America. What else can > we do? But at least let's give it a try for 20 years." > > He wanted to continue: "I am not a pro-Musharraf man but I have to > say if he > put ten per cent in his pocket he put ninety per cent into this > country. We > can see it all around. Never in my life had I seen the highways so > safe - > women drive on them at night". > > I think the 70% of the country that didn't vote is like Attaullah, > our taxi > driver. They don't believe elections serve any useful purpose for good > reasons. Elections have entrenched the status quo; they bestowed a > democratic veneer to rule by feudal and tribal coteries whose > nepotism and > corruption is legendary, whilst the 70% remained mired in poverty. > > For weeks and months liberals cried themselves hoarse demanding > "free and > fair" elections. They made dire predictions that pre-poll rigging had > already begun and alleged darkly in private that President Pervez > Musharrafhas received expert advise on the subject from U.S. > President George W. > Bush's campaign staff, who deftly executed pre-poll rigging in Florida > during the 2000 U.S. presidential election. > > > Their own exalted duty, asserted some liberals, is to minimize > manipulationsso that the 2008 general elections accurately reflect > the will of the > Pakistani people; but in fact they hoped the voters, muddled by > the sympathy > factor following the PPP leader Benazir Bhutto's assassination, > would usher > in a PPP government. But liberals also feared that, despite their > strenuousefforts, President Musharraf and Pakistan Muslim League > (PMLQ) would > nevertheless rig the elections in their favor, as they were > alleged to have > done in 2002. Some liberals gleefully looked forward to again > wielding the > democracy stick against the President and the anticipated new PML(Q) > government. > > But Gen. Musharraf, in the capacity of Chief Executive, had > delineated the > next two stages in his road map to build the foundations of > democracy. In > the second stage he intended to hold the offices of both Chief of > Army and > President, which he did. In the final stage, he said he would doff the > uniform and ensure free and fair general elections. He kept his > word. And to > the consternation of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) and Muslim > League-Nawaz (PMLN), he blocked their rigging ploys. > > > > By all accounts, the 2008 general elections were more free and > fair than > those held by the two parties when they alternated in power during the > 1990s. > > Born-Again Democrats? > > > Having screamed for genuine elections, the liberals have to live > with the > results: namely, the return of PPP's Asif Zardari and PML(N)'s > Nawaz Sharif, > both of whom have controversial antecedents in Pakistani politics. > > Almost seven years ago, > columnist-turned-politician-turned-columnist-turned-politician > again, Ayaz > Amir, had posed the following rhetorical questions: "Does any > newspaper-reading man in Pakistan doubt Benazir's and Asif's > guilt? Does > anyone think they got no commission from the Swiss firm, SGS- > Cotecna? Does > anyone doubt the financial acumen of the then ruling couple who turned > Islamabad into an open auction mart where every deal, no matter how > outrageous, was on offer provided the right palms were greased?" > > > > Amir recalled, "the longstanding love affair between GHQ and the > Sharifs(the Sharifs having been discovered and groomed for great > things by General > Zia himself, Lt-Gen Jillani, Lt-Gen Hamid Gul and a whole line of > minorgeniuses in ISI)...The Sharifs' notions of government were > intenselyprivate: which is to say, have your own man at every key > post. They began > with commissioners and police DIGs, the dregs of both services > pandering to > their whims and enriching themselves in the process ... In the > person of > Justice Qayyum at the Lahore High Court they had the closest thing > theycould get to a personal judge. Division of family assets, > balancing of huge > bank loans against dummy collateral, tightening the noose around Asif > Zardari and Benazir: the > only judge who could handle these sensitive matters was Justice > Qayyum". > And Amir concluded: "The common factor between both parties is > gangster-ism > and corruption. Shahbaz Sharif resembled nothing so much as a > Mafioso don. > What does Asif Zardari look like? In any Godfather sequel he can > easily get > a part. As for moneymaking it is hard to figure out who beat whom: > the PPP > leadership or the Muslim League? My own guess is the Sharifs were > professionals: subtle about their money. Zardari left a > trail, which goes all the way to Rockwood, French submarines, Amer > Lodhi,and my favorite grand admiral, Mansur-ul-Haq." (Dawn, April > 20, 2001). > > Liberals have been baying for President Musharraf's resignation partly > because he, as an army general, overthrew the democratically > elected Prime > Minister Nawaz Sharif in October 1999. > > > > But Rifaat Hamid Ghani documented the near universal welcome > people had > extended to Gen. Musharraf at that time: > > > > "There is no doubt the ouster of Mr. Nawaz Sharif ... was > welcomed, and the > primary reason was the constitutional amendment Mr. Sharif was > seeking (and > which politicos like Mr. Kasuri and Syeda Abida Hussain had > endorsed) that > united civil and moral legislative and executive inquisitorial > powers in the > prime minister's office, in what was touted as the paradigm of a > true Emir. > The common Pakistani, as distinct from those gracing the treasury > benches,had no truck with twisting religion into justifying > totalitarianism. They > could see the way elected parliament was leaning and the military > takeoverwas a happy release from Mian Nawaz Sharif's emerging > fascistic theocracy." > (Dawn, Oct. 25, 2004). > > Benazir had not been far behind. She donned the headscarf to placate > Islamists; and her government provided funds and granted diplomatic > recognition to the Afghan Taliban regime in 1995. During the run- > up to the > 2008 elections liberals wanted the Pakistani > people to believe that the same Zardari and Sharif are in effect the > 'farishtas' who would lead the country to the promised democracy- > land; that > they could resurrect the pre-Emergency judiciary, set its > independence in > stone and force President Musharraf out of office. > > But the PPP had politicized the judiciary in 1996 when Benazir > appointed her > favorite as Chief Justice ignoring more senior judges. Sharif's > subsequentrun-ins with judges do not instill confidence either. > > > "During his second stint in power with his a 'massive mandate'," > reminiscedArdesher Cowasjee, "Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif wished > to rid himself of an > awkward Chief Justice of Pakistan, Sajjad Ali Shah. So he > consulted his > confidantes. On November 5, 1997, as recounts Gohar Ayub Khan in his > recently published book, Glimpses into the Corridors of Power, > Nawaz "asked > me to accompany him to the PM's House. In the car, the PM put his > hand on my > knee and said, "Gohar Sahib, show me the way to arrest the Chief > Justice and > keep him in jail for a night". > > > > Naturally, Gohar was "shocked" and advised him against even > thinking about > it. But deep-thinking Nawaz thought further, and on November 27, > 1997, he > had his goons > physically storm the building of the Supreme Court of Pakistan > while Sajjad > Ali Shah > was hearing a contempt case brought against him (Nawaz) and then > proceededto engineer, with the help of Sajjad's brother judges, > the successful > removal of their Chief Justice." (Dawn, Aug. 5, 1997). > > As Masud Mufti noted, "The parties do not have an effective or > long term > commitment to democracy, an independent judiciary, merit and > public welfare > ... [they offered] lukewarm support to the lawyers' movement for the > restoration of Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry and other > judges."(Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). > > > > The track record of PPP and PML(N) are grotesquely undemocratic; > and they > have blocked and will continue to block an independent judiciary > that could > challenge their authoritarian excesses. > > To cover up their ill-advised opposition to President Musharraf, > after the > elections liberals are desperately wriggling to reinvent Zardari > and Sharif > as 'democrats'. > > > > Ayesha Siddiqa enthusiastically dubbed the politya "democracy in > transition." (Dawn, Feb. 28, 2008), presumably under the elected > leadersZardari and Sharif, together with Awami National Party > (ANP)'s Asfandyar > Wali Khan and lesser figures, if at all they form a coalition > government. > > > Self-aggrandized, another analyst and former foreign secretary, > Tanvir Ahmad > Khan: "Let there be no mistake. We are resurrecting a state that > all but > perished" (Dawn, Mar. 1, 2008). > > > > "The importance of Mr. Zardari," gushed S.A. Qureshi, "will be > determined by > his success in spelling out a charismatic vision for each > geographical area > [of the country] and how he intends to deliver it." (Dawn, Feb. > 27, 2008). > > > > Worse still, in their haste to lay claim to the curative effects of > democracy, Pakistani liberals distorted the victory of the ANP in > the North > West Frontier Province (NWFP); they made the outlandish contention > that the > defeat of the alliance of religious parties, the Muttahida Majlis- > i-Amal > (MMA), proved once again that the vast majority of voters reject > Islamists. > > > But extremists are not exclusive to religious parties. In fact > they are very > much in control of mainstream PPP and PML(N) and, as we saw above, > are far > more skilled in promoting Islamisation than the flatfooted > Islamists in > religious parties. > > > > What the NWFP election results in fact show is that local Pukhtun > nationalism over-rode general Islamic identity, a development with > importantparallels to the primacy of > Bengali nationalism in the former East Pakistan. The hapless > liberals have > yet to discover this. > > The fact of the matter is that liberals may reinvent till they are > blue in > the face but neither Zardari nor Sharif would ever become the > stuff of > democracy. When confronted with this reality, they fall back on > what is now > the post-election 'wisdom': holding regular elections, claim > liberals, is > the indispensable learning process leading to a democratic polity. > Thisassertion raises a host of questions. > > On Ballot-Box Democracy > > Are elections society-neutral? That is, do they have the same or > similaroutcomes irrespective of the history, culture and class > structure of diverse > societies? > > > > Even a cursory survey of countries would show this is untrue. What > is true > is that elections - ballot-box democracy - legitimize and entrench the > status quo, which is particularly problematical in pre-modern (feudal, > semi-feudal and tribal) and authoritarian societies. > > Many Pakistani liberals routinely point to India as evidence of > how people > by participating in regular elections, uninterrupted by military rule, > schooled themselves in democracy. > > > > This utterly absurd parallel ignores the dominance of the modern > entrepreneurial class, which is buttressed by a burgeoning middle > class that > inherited the crucial lesson of the anti-colonial freedom > struggle: namely, > that rights are never given; they are always taken. > > > > The third condition is that no single ethnic group dominates the > state and > armed forces. > > > > The single largest group, the Hindi-speaking people, is not more > than 35 per > cent of the population in the most optimistic assessment; in > effect every > ethnic group and nationality is a minority. So the Hindi belt > learned the > hard way it cannot ride roughshod over other peoples and > ethnicities (after > early bruising attempts at Hindi hegemony, spearheaded by using > Hindi as > official language, failed in the 1950s); in the process the major > non-Hindi > peoples and nationalities carved out the political space to reform the > post-colonial state; and the process continues today. The modern class > structure, historical experience of struggle, weak ethnic hegemony > and a > reformed post-colonial state constitute the foundation of the > culture of > democracy that has taken root in India; these conditions have no > parallel in > Pakistan. > > The appropriate comparison is with Sri Lanka, which is a living > proof that > ballot-box democracy, in the absence of modernist pre-conditions, > would in > all likelihood deliver the opposite of genuine democracy. > > > Regular, largely free and fair elections have been held in that > country for > more than a century (beginning in 1933) and incumbent parties have > beenregularly put out of office. The military never took power. > The population > has a very high literacy level (92%). But the dominant class almost > exclusively from the Sinhala ethnic group is a semi-feudal > oligarchy steeped > in pre-modern pageantry. > > > > The historical experience of 'peaceful' transfer of power from the > Britishto Sri Lankans in 1948 was devoid of the lessons of > struggles for political > rights. And the Sinhala ethnic > group is a dominant 70 per cent of the population and controls the > state and > armed forces. So it confidently rejects reforms of the > centralized, unitary > post-colonial state that are essential to accommodate the democratic > aspirations of other peoples in the island. All four factors > combined to > smother prospects, if any, for the development of a culture of > democracy,the absence of which is the main reason for the growth > of armed resistance > by Sinhalese working classes (1971). Tamils (1976) and, more > recently, by > Muslims (1989). > > > > Not surprisingly the unreformed post-colonial state has, under > guise of > fighting "terrorism", transmuted into a military-bureaucratic > authoritarianstate. Sri Lanka's > pre-modern class structure, the paucity of anti-colonial > struggles, ethnic > hegemony and the unreformed post-colonial state have strong > parallels in > Pakistan. > > From its birth, Pakistan has been under either bureaucratic- > authoritarian or > military-authoritarian regimes. The elected assemblies serve as the > institutional interface between the regimes and the people and are > dominatedby feudal and tribal leaders and notables, who indulged > in the charade of > ballot-box democracy while collaborating with successive > regimes to legitimize their exercise of political power and to > feather their > own nests. > > > > For historical and cultural reasons the Pakistani people did not > inherit the > lessons of anti-colonial struggles in British India. The 65 per > cent strong > Punjabi ethnic group controls the state and the armed forces to the > detriment of the democratic rights of other ethnic groups. To > consolidateits power, the Punjabi ethnic group retained the > centralized post-colonial > state virtually unchanged and further concentrated power in Islamabad. > > > > As in Sri Lanka, in Pakistan too the culture of democracy is non- > existentnot despite ballot-box democracy but in many ways because > of it. > > Perhaps the Pakistani liberals' most glaring duplicity is their > willingnessto mislead the people of Pakistan into believing that > the country has a > political party system on which foundation a free and fair > election-based > democracy could be built. The cruel reality is that so-called > politicalparties are feudal outfits that autocratic feudal/tribal > rulerscontrol with an iron fist and, therefore, cannot deliver the > democracydividend. > > > > In a refreshing break from the liberals' shibboleth, Kunwar Idris made > forthright observations after the 2008 elections about the acutely > undemocratic rule of succession by inheritance in the major parties: > > > > "The mantle of the PPP's leadership has fallen on Benazir's > widower Asif > Zardari till their son Bilawal Bhutto Zardari...comes of age. Sibling > Shahbaz Sharif will head the Muslim League's parliamentary group > until Nawaz > Sharif is constitutionally eligible to become prime minister for a > thirdterm. Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi is succeeding his aging cousin and > brother-in-law, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, as the president of his > faction of > the Muslim League while their sons Wajahat Hussain and Munis Elahi > wait in > the wings. The leadership of Wali Khan's ANP and Samad Achakzai's > MAP has > also been inherited by their sons. Amir Haider Hoti, who has been > nominatedto become the chief minister of NWFP, is also a youth of > Wali Khan's family. > > > > Religious parties, with the rare exception of the Jamaat-i-Islami, are > similarly mired in feudal inheritance practices. Members of the > councils or > caucuses of parties who ought to > promote inner-party democracy "have hardly ever shown any > inclination to > elect their leaders for they themselves are nominated by the party > bossesand not elected by the general body of members." > > In short, "the difference between a prime minister and a military > ruler is > one of origin and not of values or accountability." > > > > Idris concludes: "The parties which are not democratically > organized, quite > obviously, are neither qualified nor inclined to establish > democracy in the > country. They cannot safeguard the fundamental rights of the > citizens ... > when their own members do not have them." (Dawn, Mar. 9, 2008). > > > Adds Masud Mufti: "More than a 100 political parties still follow > the same > dictatorial patterns that revolve around a single person, or > family. Their > epicenter is active in dubious deals with the establishment to the > completeexclusion of other members." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). > > But liberals and particularly human rights and civil liberties > activistseffectively whitewashed the feudal monoliths as > democratic political > institutions. None of the liberals, either individually or through > theirorganizations, has campaigned to expose the anti-democratic > dinosaurs that > the political parties actually are. > > > > Indeed there was not a whimper of protest from liberals, including the > much-touted legal > fraternity, against the autocratic rule and succession by > inheritance within > the parties. Instead they have championed the parties as hallowed > vehiclesof democracy and betrayed the people's fundamental rights, > largely because > liberals themselves are rooted in the same feudal/tribal social > milieu.President Musharraf's political modernization project > threatens their > archaic world. Not surprisingly they exploited his unwise > confrontation with > the judiciary to undermine his authority and thereby discredit his > visionfor a far-reaching structural change. > > Towards Structural Change > > The core issue of democracy in Pakistan is structural change, > which, in the > context of politics, are always both cause and consequence of power > struggles, both internal and external power struggles. Power > struggles throw > up losers and winners; and losers often grow into implacable > enemies; and > President Musharraf earned many of them. > > Islamists were quick to label Gen. Musharraf an American puppet > dancing to > orders from the Bush administration. The immediate reason was that he > torpedoed the alliance between Sharif and the minority Islamist > faction in > the armed forces. Further reasons are that he banned extremist > organizationsbetween 1999 and 2001 and launched the war against > Jihadis. > > > The liberals, pathetically oblivious to this decisive power > struggle in the > country's history, joined the Islamists' chorus to pillory Gen. > Musharraf as > an unelected leader. It reached a crescendo post-9/11; they > bereted him as > an American stooge when he withdrew Pakistan's support for the Afghan > Taliban regime. > > > Almost simultaneously Gen. Musharraf, backed by the modernist majority > faction, moved against Islamists within civil society who > challenged the > army. These are armed, battle-hardened Pakistani Jihadis who > returned from > Afghanistan flushed with victory over the Red Army and obsessed with > repeating the success against the Pakistani army and ushering in > an Islamic > revolution in the country. A few benchmarks of that power > struggle are the assassination attempts against President Musharraf, > Waziristan Operation and siege of the Red Mosque; and suicide > bombers; and > the power struggle is continuing it to this day. Liberals, not > known for a > grasp of the dynamics of power, faulted President Musharraf for > not dealing > with Jihadis early on and, when he did take action, spun around to > blame him > for human rights violations! > > President Musharraf also attempted several other structural > changes between > 2000 and 2007. He proposed an amendment to blasphemy laws but without > success. His attempt to remove the undemocratic religion column in > passportssimilarly fell foul of the religious establishment. He > succeeded to push > through legislation to protect women's rights. He > also eviscerated the dreaded district-level nexus between the police, > bureaucracy and feudals in the inherited colonial administrative > structure - > which democratically elected previous leaders had left untouched – by > introducing for the first time representative, elected local > governmentinstitutions (Unions and Nazims) that transferred a > modicum of political > power to the poor and may well evolve into competing centers of > people'spower. > > > > This earned him the undying hatred of the feudal and religious > forces, which > intensified further when he abolished the moribund religious > apartheid by > ending the system of separate electorates for religious > minorities. As part > of educational reforms, he ordered school history textbooks be > rewritten to > remove mindless extremist and anti-Indian propaganda inserted > during Gen. > Zia-ul-Haq's rule. Indeed, by all accounts President Musharraf's > path-breaking initiatives have improved bilateral relations with > India. > Over the years, President Musharraf's reforms have thrown up numerous > enemies from the feudal, patriarchal and religious vested > interests and > anti-Indian lobbies. They can be found in the PPP and PML(N), in > religiousparties and civil society institutions – especially > professionals'associations - and in the most conservative of > occupations, the legal > profession. > > The New Great Game > > President Musharraf made enemies outside Pakistan too. He faced a > majorchallenge in 2003 when the U.S. invaded Iraq. Washington > intensely pressured > Islamabad to join the laughable "Coalition of the Willing". > > > The U.S. bribed (loan write-offs) or coerced (aid cut-offs) most > countriesin that decrepit "Coalition" It is to the eternal credit > of President > Musharraf that he nimbly sidestepped American demands. For > instance, at one > stage he agreed to send troops under the umbrella of the OIC. > > > Politically naïve liberals promptly moaned that President > Musharraf was > caving into U.S. pressure. But he calculated that diverse ideological > stances of Muslim counties would not allow them to initiate such joint > action and therefore Pakistan's participation cannot arise, which > provedcorrect. > > Meanwhile Benazir, living in self-imposed exile, was busy convincing > Washington and London that if she had been the Prime Minister, > Pakistanwould have naturally joined the "Coalition". Inevitably > Washington took a > jaundiced view of President Musharraf's determination to strike an > independent furrow while, of course, making positive public > pronouncements about his role as "ally" in the War Against Terror. > > In contrast, President Musharraf prioritized Pakistan's national > interestswhen steering the ship of state through the choppy waters > of the emerging > New Great Game. His foreign policy decisions over time convinced > Washingtonthat under his leadership, Pakistan would not side with > the U.S. and Britain > in the unfolding New Great Game to contain Russian and Chinese > influence in > Central and West Asia. > > > > First, he refused to isolate Iran. Second, he pursued the > Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline > in the face of stiff American opposition. President Musharraf further > angered Americans be deepening Pakistan-China bilateral relations, > offeringBeijing naval facilities at Gwadar and extending nuclear > cooperation. > > Perhaps the last straw was his success in gaining Observer Status for > Pakistan in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). Russia > and China > are spearheading the SCO, which includes four other countries: > Kazakhstan,Kyrgystan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan; Iran and India > are also Observers. The > SCO is widely perceived as a rising eastern > counterweight to western security and economic groupings. > > To rub salt into the wounds, President Musharraf refused > permission for > western intelligence agencies to interrogate Dr AQ Khan and firmly > rejectedWashington's repeated demands that U.S. troops should be > allowed into > Pakistan to hunt down Osama bin Laden and his Taliban associates. > > But Anglo-Americans were not in a position to overthrow President > Musharraf.Instead of a "regime change", they sought a "regime > adjustment" in which he > continues as President but is weakened sufficiently to serve their > interestsin the region. That is the logic underlying the two major > demands of their > sustained pro-democracy campaign. The first demand was that President > Musharraf must doff his uniform; that would remove > his power base in the army. The second, that he should hold free > and fair > elections expected to sweep away his political power base, the PML(Q). > > Washington and London couched their neo-imperialist demands in > tear-jerking > rhetoric about the welfare of the people of Pakistan. Anyone who > believesthat shibboleth should have his or her head thoroughly > examined. For them, > Pakistan is nothing more than a pawn in the New Great Game and > Americans are > looking for nothing less than a pliable regime in Islamabad with great > urgency, given the debacles they face in Iraq and > Afghanistan. > > > > As Harish Khare perceptively observed, "The Americans would want > to enlarge > their military presence in Pakistan. After all, it does not > require any > great diplomatic expertise to understand that the American carping > over the > 'free and fair' election in Pakistan is part > of Washington's strategic design: the Musharraf regime must be > kept on its > toes, it should be continuously badgered into feeling that its > legitimacyultimately depends on American certificates of good > conduct, and, having > been rendered so vulnerable, it should be pressured into letting the > American/NATO forces have the run of the Pakistan-Afghan border in > pursuitof the Taliban militants." (The Hindu, Feb. 14, 2008). > > Pakistan's deracinated liberals - a ghastly hangover from the > colonial past > - willingly weighed in on the side of Anglo-Americans and operated > primarilythrough human rights and civil liberties organizations > and the > English-language media. Nudged by U.S. and British diplomats, and not > forgetful of western sources of funds and frills, before the 2008 > elections liberals obediently harassed President Musharraf about his > legitimacy and mindlessly cheered Benazir as the dyed-in-the-wool > patriotand democrat. Blissfully ignorant of the unfolding > realpolitik, journalists > wrote reams on everything that's wrong in the country under the > President. A > human rights activist, Asma Jahangir, emailed "friends of Pakistan" > worldwide ostensibly to pressure U.S. not to support President > Musharraf but in fact to rally them against the President. > Lawyers, led by > Aitzaz Ahsan, repeatedly implored America to help re-establish the > rule of > law. Another activist, Hina Jilani, materialized opposite the > doorstep - 10 > Downing Street - of the erstwhile colonial ruler begging for > "justice". Not > to be outdone, Imran Khan and his former British > wife Jemima joined the neo-colonial flotsam and jetsam in London. > > The celebrated liberal Benazir, ever willing to serve Anglo-American > interests, obligingly let it be known that if she were Prime > Minister she > would allow U.S. intelligence agencies access to Dr A.Q. Khan > (Dawn, Sept. > 26, 2007) and invite U.S. troops into Pakistan to hunt Osama bin > Laden. > > In short, she willingly prostrated herself as America's doormat; > and U.S. > Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared that she couldn't see > democracyin Pakistan without Benazir. So the Bush administration > arm-twisted > President Musharraf to grant her an amnesty against all charges > and allow > her to re-enter Pakistani politics. > > Washington's intentions were quite transparent. President Musharraf, > weakened with the help from liberals, should remain at his post to > prosecutethe War on Terror and to keep the unruly politicians in > line, with a little > help from the army. Benazir was to take over as Prime Minister > with control > over foreign policy and prostitute Pakistan as the Anglo-American > camp's'cat's paw' in the New Great Game. > > By assassinating Benazir, the Al Qaeda threw into disarray the Bush > administration's designs to bring Pakistan to heel. Zardari has > reiteratedPPP's support for the U.S. After the 2008 elections, > Anglo-American > diplomats in Islamabad are feverishly working to cobble together a > puppetcoalition government led by PPP and PML(N) as a counter > weight to President > Musharraf. > > What Next? > > My wife and filmmaker Sabiha Sumar ran into activists who had > virulentlydemanded President Musharraf must reinstate the pre- > Emergency judges. > > > Sabiha: So willPPP reinstate the judges? > > Woman: That's just the point. Now they are saying that they won't. > > Sabiha: Sounds a bit like the Hudood Ordinances. > > Woman: Well that was different. Because they didn't have a two-third > majority in Parliament. > > Sabiha: And they still have that excuse. > > Woman: But you see Nawaz Sharif is saying that he will reinstate > the judges. > So they [PPP] should agree with that. > > Sabiha: So why don't they? > > Woman: That's the thing! > > Sabiha: So I would rather go with the one who has done something > like bring > women into Parliament, make the Hudood Ordinance ineffective.... > > Woman 1 and 2 in chorus: Then why didn't he do more?! > > Woman: He could have done everything but he didn't. You know political > parties don't have so much power. They have to be careful. But > this man had > all the powers then why didn't he just kill the jihadis. > > Woman's husband: And the thing is that they actually like him in > India.[Editor's note: Visit the campuses of Chinese universities. > Pakistan'sMusharraf is hero to young Chinese women and men.] > > > In Pakistan today liberals should be relieved that President > Musharraf held > free and fair elections. But they are not. The election results > have forced > liberals to confront their monumental folly of helping to elect > despotic and > corrupt rulers. So they are turning around and biting the > President's leg, > blaming him for not being a full-blooded dictator. President > Musharraf is > damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. > > > Also, the warriors of democracy are faltering. Liberals are losing > enthusiasm for re-instating that pillar of democracy - the > judiciary - since > the Bush administration has signaled its opposition. The PPP too > is waffling > on the issue. Speaking to the press, "Zardari parried several > questions on > issues like reinstatement of deposed judges ... the PPP leader > said that the > matters would be decided by parliament." (Dawn, > Feb. 20, 2008). > > > > For the same reason, liberals' hysterical cries for the President's > resignation have subsided. > > > > Thus lamented Ahmad Faruqui: "Sadly, many Pakistani political > leaders and > even some analysts have begun to argue that judicial restoration > is not in > the country's interest." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). > > > > > And Zardari is backing the U.S. position and Sharif has also > fallen in line. > So, in their Mar. 9 Murree Summit Declaration they skillfully > passed the > buck on reinstating the judiciary to the National Assembly: "The > restorationof deposed judges as on November 2, 2007, shall be > brought about through a > parliamentary resolution to be passed in the > National Assembly within 30 days of the formation of the federal > government." (Dawn, Mr. 10, 2008). > > > > Even a cursory knowledge of fratricidal Pakistani politics will > show that > the resolution will not see the light of day. In other words, > reinstatementhas been shelved as per instructions from the U.S. > embassy. (Flat-footed > analysts predictably missed the obvious sleight of hand and > gloated the > Declaration is a serious set back to President Musharraf.). > > The backsliding continues. While addressing the Sindh High Court Bar > Association, Aitzaz Ahsan glibly abandoned the demand for justice for > victims of the Karachi bloodbath: "I have forgotten the May 12 > mayhem," he > advised the lawyers, "and would like to request that it is better > for all of > us to forget that tragic incident." (Dawn, Mar. 6, 2008). > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 18:14:48 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:44:48 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] The new great game In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300803310155r77e00f98p488eea9c7037a7d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300803310155r77e00f98p488eea9c7037a7d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0803310544s2c1fcdbdr2e7a49416883035f@mail.gmail.com> wali, you missed the last few lines when you copy-pasted: >>> Is that pragmatic accommodation? If so, with whom? And, for what rewards? Will the 'liberals' once again look to the army to rescue the country? The author read for the PhD degree at the University of Cambridge and was Visiting Research Scholar at the Jawaharlal Nehru University School of International Studies. He is the co-writer and co-director of "Dinner with the President: a nation's journey". He cane be reached at ssathananthan at gmail.com (c) Copyrighted Material. AhmedQuraishi.com. Click here for republication. <<< Be that as it may, ahmed qureshi is a compere on the state-run ptv and provides an argued illiberal defence of general musharraf's role in civil politics. no wonder the article is silent on this. While I may understand a sceptism in pakistani politics and de-politicisation of society, the current wave far from a revolution is still a breeze of fresh air. The contradictions, distorted constitutional amendments and role-reversals are too big of a mess to describe here. there is a palpable democratic sense in its early days. Yet together zardari and nawaz, after benazir's death have managed to push back the army out of politics, made musharraf step-down ( while he still occupies the COAS's house) through an election which was fair not surprisingly this time because the army (kayani) decide to reverse mush'd politics of the army and kept the hidden manipulation of balot results to a minimum. the riggis was left upto the parties to do themselves wherever tey were stronger locally, ie the police and army operatives did not mess with the resuts as they always do. Flawed as it may be it was enough to crush the public persona of what is called the establishment here in the polls and in real terms. But the transfer of power is yet to take place. and the byzantine machinations of the usurpers of civilian and judicial powers are bold. these are the people aligned behind ahmed qureshi in the bureacracy and the independent acting security apparatus who dont like spring. best. On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Wali Arifi wrote: > An Indian View: How Pakistani Liberals Thrashed Their Homeland > > Almost all Pakistani liberals, including member of women's and human rights > organizations, journalists, writers, and lawyers, are celebrating a divine > "national mandate". They have dodged the obvious question: Why did the > majority of Pakistani voters ignore, perhaps even boycott, the elections? > And don't give me the self-serving claims that fear of violence and suicide > bombings discouraged a large number of people. A Majority of Pakistanis > didn't vote because elections here simply give a democratic veneer to rule > by feudal and tribal coteries whose nepotism and corruption is legendary. > > > By S. SATHANANTHAN > > Wednesday, 19 March 2008. > > WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM > > > > > > NEW DELHI, India—A few days after the February 2008 general elections, I met > an acquaintance - an investment banker - in Karachi who looked ecstatic. > > > He bubbled, "these elections have been so cathartic for the entire nation". > > > > With a pathetically low 30% turnout of voters, I puzzled how he concluded > the "entire" nation had participated in the experience. > > He is not alone in slurring over the damaging implications of the low voter > turnout. > > > > Almost all liberals - who include member of women's and human rights > organizations, journalists, writers, lawyers and assorted professionals - > are thrashing about to divine a "national mandate" in the election results. > They have dodged the obvious question: Why did the majority of Pakistani > voters ignore, perhaps even boycott, the elections? Instead the liberals > trotted out self-serving claims that fear of violence and suicide bombings > discouraged a large number of people. > > About an hour after my encounter with the investment banker, my wife and I > were on our way back home in a metro cab. As the car cruised down the new > flyover that meets with Shahrah-i-Faisal we saw a couple of trucks > over-flowing with agitated men, shouting slogans and waving flags. > > We casually asked the driver what that was about; and words cascaded out of > his mouth as if he had been waiting for the flimsiest excuse to unburden his > misery. "Just wait and see all the politicos will come out of the woodwork > to make our lives hell. We don't need any elections for 20 years, just a > disciplined ruler. We are not made for elections, we > need the stick to keep us in line. And if after 20 years we still haven't > learnt then I would say we hand the country over to America. What else can > we do? But at least let's give it a try for 20 years." > > He wanted to continue: "I am not a pro-Musharraf man but I have to say if he > put ten per cent in his pocket he put ninety per cent into this country. We > can see it all around. Never in my life had I seen the highways so safe - > women drive on them at night". > > I think the 70% of the country that didn't vote is like Attaullah, our taxi > driver. They don't believe elections serve any useful purpose for good > reasons. Elections have entrenched the status quo; they bestowed a > democratic veneer to rule by feudal and tribal coteries whose nepotism and > corruption is legendary, whilst the 70% remained mired in poverty. > > For weeks and months liberals cried themselves hoarse demanding "free and > fair" elections. They made dire predictions that pre-poll rigging had > already begun and alleged darkly in private that President Pervez Musharraf > has received expert advise on the subject from U.S. President George W. > Bush's campaign staff, who deftly executed pre-poll rigging in Florida > during the 2000 U.S. presidential election. > > > Their own exalted duty, asserted some liberals, is to minimize manipulations > so that the 2008 general elections accurately reflect the will of the > Pakistani people; but in fact they hoped the voters, muddled by the sympathy > factor following the PPP leader Benazir Bhutto's assassination, would usher > in a PPP government. But liberals also feared that, despite their strenuous > efforts, President Musharraf and Pakistan Muslim League (PMLQ) would > nevertheless rig the elections in their favor, as they were alleged to have > done in 2002. Some liberals gleefully looked forward to again wielding the > democracy stick against the President and the anticipated new PML(Q) > government. > > But Gen. Musharraf, in the capacity of Chief Executive, had delineated the > next two stages in his road map to build the foundations of democracy. In > the second stage he intended to hold the offices of both Chief of Army and > President, which he did. In the final stage, he said he would doff the > uniform and ensure free and fair general elections. He kept his word. And to > the consternation of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) and Muslim > League-Nawaz (PMLN), he blocked their rigging ploys. > > > > By all accounts, the 2008 general elections were more free and fair than > those held by the two parties when they alternated in power during the > 1990s. > > Born-Again Democrats? > > > Having screamed for genuine elections, the liberals have to live with the > results: namely, the return of PPP's Asif Zardari and PML(N)'s Nawaz Sharif, > both of whom have controversial antecedents in Pakistani politics. > > Almost seven years ago, > columnist-turned-politician-turned-columnist-turned-politician again, Ayaz > Amir, had posed the following rhetorical questions: "Does any > newspaper-reading man in Pakistan doubt Benazir's and Asif's guilt? Does > anyone think they got no commission from the Swiss firm, SGS-Cotecna? Does > anyone doubt the financial acumen of the then ruling couple who turned > Islamabad into an open auction mart where every deal, no matter how > outrageous, was on offer provided the right palms were greased?" > > > > Amir recalled, "the longstanding love affair between GHQ and the Sharifs > (the Sharifs having been discovered and groomed for great things by General > Zia himself, Lt-Gen Jillani, Lt-Gen Hamid Gul and a whole line of minor > geniuses in ISI)...The Sharifs' notions of government were intensely > private: which is to say, have your own man at every key post. They began > with commissioners and police DIGs, the dregs of both services pandering to > their whims and enriching themselves in the process ... In the person of > Justice Qayyum at the Lahore High Court they had the closest thing they > could get to a personal judge. Division of family assets, balancing of huge > bank loans against dummy collateral, tightening the noose around Asif > Zardari and Benazir: the > only judge who could handle these sensitive matters was Justice Qayyum". > > And Amir concluded: "The common factor between both parties is gangster-ism > and corruption. Shahbaz Sharif resembled nothing so much as a Mafioso don. > What does Asif Zardari look like? In any Godfather sequel he can easily get > a part. As for moneymaking it is hard to figure out who beat whom: the PPP > leadership or the Muslim League? My own guess is the Sharifs were > professionals: subtle about their money. Zardari left a > trail, which goes all the way to Rockwood, French submarines, Amer Lodhi, > and my favorite grand admiral, Mansur-ul-Haq." (Dawn, April 20, 2001). > > Liberals have been baying for President Musharraf's resignation partly > because he, as an army general, overthrew the democratically elected Prime > Minister Nawaz Sharif in October 1999. > > > > But Rifaat Hamid Ghani documented the near universal welcome people had > extended to Gen. Musharraf at that time: > > > > "There is no doubt the ouster of Mr. Nawaz Sharif ... was welcomed, and the > primary reason was the constitutional amendment Mr. Sharif was seeking (and > which politicos like Mr. Kasuri and Syeda Abida Hussain had endorsed) that > united civil and moral legislative and executive inquisitorial powers in the > prime minister's office, in what was touted as the paradigm of a true Emir. > The common Pakistani, as distinct from those gracing the treasury benches, > had no truck with twisting religion into justifying totalitarianism. They > could see the way elected parliament was leaning and the military takeover > was a happy release from Mian Nawaz Sharif's emerging fascistic theocracy." > (Dawn, Oct. 25, 2004). > > Benazir had not been far behind. She donned the headscarf to placate > Islamists; and her government provided funds and granted diplomatic > recognition to the Afghan Taliban regime in 1995. During the run-up to the > 2008 elections liberals wanted the Pakistani > people to believe that the same Zardari and Sharif are in effect the > 'farishtas' who would lead the country to the promised democracy-land; that > they could resurrect the pre-Emergency judiciary, set its independence in > stone and force President Musharraf out of office. > > But the PPP had politicized the judiciary in 1996 when Benazir appointed her > favorite as Chief Justice ignoring more senior judges. Sharif's subsequent > run-ins with judges do not instill confidence either. > > > "During his second stint in power with his a 'massive mandate'," reminisced > Ardesher Cowasjee, "Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif wished to rid himself of an > awkward Chief Justice of Pakistan, Sajjad Ali Shah. So he consulted his > confidantes. On November 5, 1997, as recounts Gohar Ayub Khan in his > recently published book, Glimpses into the Corridors of Power, Nawaz "asked > me to accompany him to the PM's House. In the car, the PM put his hand on my > knee and said, "Gohar Sahib, show me the way to arrest the Chief Justice and > keep him in jail for a night". > > > > Naturally, Gohar was "shocked" and advised him against even thinking about > it. But deep-thinking Nawaz thought further, and on November 27, 1997, he > had his goons > physically storm the building of the Supreme Court of Pakistan while Sajjad > Ali Shah > was hearing a contempt case brought against him (Nawaz) and then proceeded > to engineer, with the help of Sajjad's brother judges, the successful > removal of their Chief Justice." (Dawn, Aug. 5, 1997). > > As Masud Mufti noted, "The parties do not have an effective or long term > commitment to democracy, an independent judiciary, merit and public welfare > ... [they offered] lukewarm support to the lawyers' movement for the > restoration of Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry and other judges." > (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). > > > > The track record of PPP and PML(N) are grotesquely undemocratic; and they > have blocked and will continue to block an independent judiciary that could > challenge their authoritarian excesses. > > To cover up their ill-advised opposition to President Musharraf, after the > elections liberals are desperately wriggling to reinvent Zardari and Sharif > as 'democrats'. > > > > Ayesha Siddiqa enthusiastically dubbed the polity a "democracy in > transition." (Dawn, Feb. 28, 2008), presumably under the elected leaders > Zardari and Sharif, together with Awami National Party (ANP)'s Asfandyar > Wali Khan and lesser figures, if at all they form a coalition government. > > > > Self-aggrandized, another analyst and former foreign secretary, Tanvir Ahmad > Khan: "Let there be no mistake. We are resurrecting a state that all but > perished" (Dawn, Mar. 1, 2008). > > > > "The importance of Mr. Zardari," gushed S.A. Qureshi, "will be determined by > his success in spelling out a charismatic vision for each geographical area > [of the country] and how he intends to deliver it." (Dawn, Feb. 27, 2008). > > > > Worse still, in their haste to lay claim to the curative effects of > democracy, Pakistani liberals distorted the victory of the ANP in the North > West Frontier Province (NWFP); they made the outlandish contention that the > defeat of the alliance of religious parties, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal > (MMA), proved once again that the vast majority of voters reject Islamists. > > > > But extremists are not exclusive to religious parties. In fact they are very > much in control of mainstream PPP and PML(N) and, as we saw above, are far > more skilled in promoting Islamisation than the flatfooted Islamists in > religious parties. > > > > What the NWFP election results in fact show is that local Pukhtun > nationalism over-rode general Islamic identity, a development with important > parallels to the primacy of > Bengali nationalism in the former East Pakistan. The hapless liberals have > yet to discover this. > > The fact of the matter is that liberals may reinvent till they are blue in > the face but neither Zardari nor Sharif would ever become the stuff of > democracy. When confronted with this reality, they fall back on what is now > the post-election 'wisdom': holding regular elections, claim liberals, is > the indispensable learning process leading to a democratic polity. This > assertion raises a host of questions. > > On Ballot-Box Democracy > > Are elections society-neutral? That is, do they have the same or similar > outcomes irrespective of the history, culture and class structure of diverse > societies? > > > > Even a cursory survey of countries would show this is untrue. What is true > is that elections - ballot-box democracy - legitimize and entrench the > status quo, which is particularly problematical in pre-modern (feudal, > semi-feudal and tribal) and authoritarian societies. > > Many Pakistani liberals routinely point to India as evidence of how people > by participating in regular elections, uninterrupted by military rule, > schooled themselves in democracy. > > > > This utterly absurd parallel ignores the dominance of the modern > entrepreneurial class, which is buttressed by a burgeoning middle class that > inherited the crucial lesson of the anti-colonial freedom struggle: namely, > that rights are never given; they are always taken. > > > > The third condition is that no single ethnic group dominates the state and > armed forces. > > > > The single largest group, the Hindi-speaking people, is not more than 35 per > cent of the population in the most optimistic assessment; in effect every > ethnic group and nationality is a minority. So the Hindi belt learned the > hard way it cannot ride roughshod over other peoples and ethnicities (after > early bruising attempts at Hindi hegemony, spearheaded by using Hindi as > official language, failed in the 1950s); in the process the major non-Hindi > peoples and nationalities carved out the political space to reform the > post-colonial state; and the process continues today. The modern class > structure, historical experience of struggle, weak ethnic hegemony and a > reformed post-colonial state constitute the foundation of the culture of > democracy that has taken root in India; these conditions have no parallel in > Pakistan. > > The appropriate comparison is with Sri Lanka, which is a living proof that > ballot-box democracy, in the absence of modernist pre-conditions, would in > all likelihood deliver the opposite of genuine democracy. > > > Regular, largely free and fair elections have been held in that country for > more than a century (beginning in 1933) and incumbent parties have been > regularly put out of office. The military never took power. The population > has a very high literacy level (92%). But the dominant class almost > exclusively from the Sinhala ethnic group is a semi-feudal oligarchy steeped > in pre-modern pageantry. > > > > The historical experience of 'peaceful' transfer of power from the British > to Sri Lankans in 1948 was devoid of the lessons of struggles for political > rights. And the Sinhala ethnic > group is a dominant 70 per cent of the population and controls the state and > armed forces. So it confidently rejects reforms of the centralized, unitary > post-colonial state that are essential to accommodate the democratic > aspirations of other peoples in the island. All four factors combined to > smother prospects, if any, for the development of a culture of democracy, > the absence of which is the main reason for the growth of armed resistance > by Sinhalese working classes (1971). Tamils (1976) and, more recently, by > Muslims (1989). > > > > Not surprisingly the unreformed post-colonial state has, under guise of > fighting "terrorism", transmuted into a military-bureaucratic authoritarian > state. Sri Lanka's > pre-modern class structure, the paucity of anti-colonial struggles, ethnic > hegemony and the unreformed post-colonial state have strong parallels in > Pakistan. > > From its birth, Pakistan has been under either bureaucratic-authoritarian or > military-authoritarian regimes. The elected assemblies serve as the > institutional interface between the regimes and the people and are dominated > by feudal and tribal leaders and notables, who indulged in the charade of > ballot-box democracy while collaborating with successive > regimes to legitimize their exercise of political power and to feather their > own nests. > > > > For historical and cultural reasons the Pakistani people did not inherit the > lessons of anti-colonial struggles in British India. The 65 per cent strong > Punjabi ethnic group controls the state and the armed forces to the > detriment of the democratic rights of other ethnic groups. To consolidate > its power, the Punjabi ethnic group retained the centralized post-colonial > state virtually unchanged and further concentrated power in Islamabad. > > > > As in Sri Lanka, in Pakistan too the culture of democracy is non-existent > not despite ballot-box democracy but in many ways because of it. > > Perhaps the Pakistani liberals' most glaring duplicity is their willingness > to mislead the people of Pakistan into believing that the country has a > political party system on which foundation a free and fair election-based > democracy could be built. The cruel reality is that so-called political > parties are feudal outfits that autocratic feudal/tribal rulers > control with an iron fist and, therefore, cannot deliver the democracy > dividend. > > > > In a refreshing break from the liberals' shibboleth, Kunwar Idris made > forthright observations after the 2008 elections about the acutely > undemocratic rule of succession by inheritance in the major parties: > > > > "The mantle of the PPP's leadership has fallen on Benazir's widower Asif > Zardari till their son Bilawal Bhutto Zardari...comes of age. Sibling > Shahbaz Sharif will head the Muslim League's parliamentary group until Nawaz > Sharif is constitutionally eligible to become prime minister for a third > term. Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi is succeeding his aging cousin and > brother-in-law, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, as the president of his faction of > the Muslim League while their sons Wajahat Hussain and Munis Elahi wait in > the wings. The leadership of Wali Khan's ANP and Samad Achakzai's MAP has > also been inherited by their sons. Amir Haider Hoti, who has been nominated > to become the chief minister of NWFP, is also a youth of Wali Khan's family. > > > > Religious parties, with the rare exception of the Jamaat-i-Islami, are > similarly mired in feudal inheritance practices. Members of the councils or > caucuses of parties who ought to > promote inner-party democracy "have hardly ever shown any inclination to > elect their leaders for they themselves are nominated by the party bosses > and not elected by the general body of members." > > In short, "the difference between a prime minister and a military ruler is > one of origin and not of values or accountability." > > > > Idris concludes: "The parties which are not democratically organized, quite > obviously, are neither qualified nor inclined to establish democracy in the > country. They cannot safeguard the fundamental rights of the citizens ... > when their own members do not have them." (Dawn, Mar. 9, 2008). > > > Adds Masud Mufti: "More than a 100 political parties still follow the same > dictatorial patterns that revolve around a single person, or family. Their > epicenter is active in dubious deals with the establishment to the complete > exclusion of other members." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). > > But liberals and particularly human rights and civil liberties activists > effectively whitewashed the feudal monoliths as democratic political > institutions. None of the liberals, either individually or through their > organizations, has campaigned to expose the anti-democratic dinosaurs that > the political parties actually are. > > > > Indeed there was not a whimper of protest from liberals, including the > much-touted legal > fraternity, against the autocratic rule and succession by inheritance within > the parties. Instead they have championed the parties as hallowed vehicles > of democracy and betrayed the people's fundamental rights, largely because > liberals themselves are rooted in the same feudal/tribal social milieu. > President Musharraf's political modernization project threatens their > archaic world. Not surprisingly they exploited his unwise confrontation with > the judiciary to undermine his authority and thereby discredit his vision > for a far-reaching structural change. > > Towards Structural Change > > The core issue of democracy in Pakistan is structural change, which, in the > context of politics, are always both cause and consequence of power > struggles, both internal and external power struggles. Power struggles throw > up losers and winners; and losers often grow into implacable enemies; and > President Musharraf earned many of them. > > Islamists were quick to label Gen. Musharraf an American puppet dancing to > orders from the Bush administration. The immediate reason was that he > torpedoed the alliance between Sharif and the minority Islamist faction in > the armed forces. Further reasons are that he banned extremist organizations > between 1999 and 2001 and launched the war against Jihadis. > > > > The liberals, pathetically oblivious to this decisive power struggle in the > country's history, joined the Islamists' chorus to pillory Gen. Musharraf as > an unelected leader. It reached a crescendo post-9/11; they bereted him as > an American stooge when he withdrew Pakistan's support for the Afghan > Taliban regime. > > > Almost simultaneously Gen. Musharraf, backed by the modernist majority > faction, moved against Islamists within civil society who challenged the > army. These are armed, battle-hardened Pakistani Jihadis who returned from > Afghanistan flushed with victory over the Red Army and obsessed with > repeating the success against the Pakistani army and ushering in an Islamic > revolution in the country. A few benchmarks of that power > struggle are the assassination attempts against President Musharraf, > Waziristan Operation and siege of the Red Mosque; and suicide bombers; and > the power struggle is continuing it to this day. Liberals, not known for a > grasp of the dynamics of power, faulted President Musharraf for not dealing > with Jihadis early on and, when he did take action, spun around to blame him > for human rights violations! > > President Musharraf also attempted several other structural changes between > 2000 and 2007. He proposed an amendment to blasphemy laws but without > success. His attempt to remove the undemocratic religion column in passports > similarly fell foul of the religious establishment. He succeeded to push > through legislation to protect women's rights. He > also eviscerated the dreaded district-level nexus between the police, > bureaucracy and feudals in the inherited colonial administrative structure - > which democratically elected previous leaders had left untouched – by > introducing for the first time representative, elected local government > institutions (Unions and Nazims) that transferred a modicum of political > power to the poor and may well evolve into competing centers of people's > power. > > > > This earned him the undying hatred of the feudal and religious forces, which > intensified further when he abolished the moribund religious apartheid by > ending the system of separate electorates for religious minorities. As part > of educational reforms, he ordered school history textbooks be rewritten to > remove mindless extremist and anti-Indian propaganda inserted during Gen. > Zia-ul-Haq's rule. Indeed, by all accounts President Musharraf's > path-breaking initiatives have improved bilateral relations with India. > > Over the years, President Musharraf's reforms have thrown up numerous > enemies from the feudal, patriarchal and religious vested interests and > anti-Indian lobbies. They can be found in the PPP and PML(N), in religious > parties and civil society institutions – especially professionals' > associations - and in the most conservative of occupations, the legal > profession. > > The New Great Game > > President Musharraf made enemies outside Pakistan too. He faced a major > challenge in 2003 when the U.S. invaded Iraq. Washington intensely pressured > Islamabad to join the laughable "Coalition of the Willing". > > > The U.S. bribed (loan write-offs) or coerced (aid cut-offs) most countries > in that decrepit "Coalition" It is to the eternal credit of President > Musharraf that he nimbly sidestepped American demands. For instance, at one > stage he agreed to send troops under the umbrella of the OIC. > > > Politically naïve liberals promptly moaned that President Musharraf was > caving into U.S. pressure. But he calculated that diverse ideological > stances of Muslim counties would not allow them to initiate such joint > action and therefore Pakistan's participation cannot arise, which proved > correct. > > Meanwhile Benazir, living in self-imposed exile, was busy convincing > Washington and London that if she had been the Prime Minister, Pakistan > would have naturally joined the "Coalition". Inevitably Washington took a > jaundiced view of President Musharraf's determination to strike an > independent furrow while, of course, making positive public > pronouncements about his role as "ally" in the War Against Terror. > > In contrast, President Musharraf prioritized Pakistan's national interests > when steering the ship of state through the choppy waters of the emerging > New Great Game. His foreign policy decisions over time convinced Washington > that under his leadership, Pakistan would not side with the U.S. and Britain > in the unfolding New Great Game to contain Russian and Chinese influence in > Central and West Asia. > > > > First, he refused to isolate Iran. Second, he pursued the > Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline > in the face of stiff American opposition. President Musharraf further > angered Americans be deepening Pakistan-China bilateral relations, offering > Beijing naval facilities at Gwadar and extending nuclear cooperation. > > > Perhaps the last straw was his success in gaining Observer Status for > Pakistan in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). Russia and China > are spearheading the SCO, which includes four other countries: Kazakhstan, > Kyrgystan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan; Iran and India are also Observers. The > SCO is widely perceived as a rising eastern > counterweight to western security and economic groupings. > > To rub salt into the wounds, President Musharraf refused permission for > western intelligence agencies to interrogate Dr AQ Khan and firmly rejected > Washington's repeated demands that U.S. troops should be allowed into > Pakistan to hunt down Osama bin Laden and his Taliban associates. > > But Anglo-Americans were not in a position to overthrow President Musharraf. > Instead of a "regime change", they sought a "regime adjustment" in which he > continues as President but is weakened sufficiently to serve their interests > in the region. That is the logic underlying the two major demands of their > sustained pro-democracy campaign. The first demand was that President > Musharraf must doff his uniform; that would remove > his power base in the army. The second, that he should hold free and fair > elections expected to sweep away his political power base, the PML(Q). > > Washington and London couched their neo-imperialist demands in tear-jerking > rhetoric about the welfare of the people of Pakistan. Anyone who believes > that shibboleth should have his or her head thoroughly examined. For them, > Pakistan is nothing more than a pawn in the New Great Game and Americans are > looking for nothing less than a pliable regime in Islamabad with great > urgency, given the debacles they face in Iraq and > Afghanistan. > > > > As Harish Khare perceptively observed, "The Americans would want to enlarge > their military presence in Pakistan. After all, it does not require any > great diplomatic expertise to understand that the American carping over the > 'free and fair' election in Pakistan is part > of Washington's strategic design: the Musharraf regime must be kept on its > toes, it should be continuously badgered into feeling that its legitimacy > ultimately depends on American certificates of good conduct, and, having > been rendered so vulnerable, it should be pressured into letting the > American/NATO forces have the run of the Pakistan-Afghan border in pursuit > of the Taliban militants." (The Hindu, Feb. 14, 2008). > > Pakistan's deracinated liberals - a ghastly hangover from the colonial past > - willingly weighed in on the side of Anglo-Americans and operated primarily > through human rights and civil liberties organizations and the > English-language media. Nudged by U.S. and British diplomats, and not > forgetful of western sources of funds and frills, before the 2008 > elections liberals obediently harassed President Musharraf about his > legitimacy and mindlessly cheered Benazir as the dyed-in-the-wool patriot > and democrat. Blissfully ignorant of the unfolding realpolitik, journalists > wrote reams on everything that's wrong in the country under the President. A > human rights activist, Asma Jahangir, emailed "friends of Pakistan" > worldwide ostensibly to pressure U.S. not to support President > Musharraf but in fact to rally them against the President. Lawyers, led by > Aitzaz Ahsan, repeatedly implored America to help re-establish the rule of > law. Another activist, Hina Jilani, materialized opposite the doorstep - 10 > Downing Street - of the erstwhile colonial ruler begging for "justice". Not > to be outdone, Imran Khan and his former British > wife Jemima joined the neo-colonial flotsam and jetsam in London. > > The celebrated liberal Benazir, ever willing to serve Anglo-American > interests, obligingly let it be known that if she were Prime Minister she > would allow U.S. intelligence agencies access to Dr A.Q. Khan (Dawn, Sept. > 26, 2007) and invite U.S. troops into Pakistan to hunt Osama bin Laden. > > > In short, she willingly prostrated herself as America's doormat; and U.S. > Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared that she couldn't see democracy > in Pakistan without Benazir. So the Bush administration arm-twisted > President Musharraf to grant her an amnesty against all charges and allow > her to re-enter Pakistani politics. > > Washington's intentions were quite transparent. President Musharraf, > weakened with the help from liberals, should remain at his post to prosecute > the War on Terror and to keep the unruly politicians in line, with a little > help from the army. Benazir was to take over as Prime Minister with control > over foreign policy and prostitute Pakistan as the Anglo-American camp's > 'cat's paw' in the New Great Game. > > By assassinating Benazir, the Al Qaeda threw into disarray the Bush > administration's designs to bring Pakistan to heel. Zardari has reiterated > PPP's support for the U.S. After the 2008 elections, Anglo-American > diplomats in Islamabad are feverishly working to cobble together a puppet > coalition government led by PPP and PML(N) as a counter weight to President > Musharraf. > > What Next? > > My wife and filmmaker Sabiha Sumar ran into activists who had virulently > demanded President Musharraf must reinstate the pre-Emergency judges. > > > Sabiha: So will PPP reinstate the judges? > > Woman: That's just the point. Now they are saying that they won't. > > Sabiha: Sounds a bit like the Hudood Ordinances. > > Woman: Well that was different. Because they didn't have a two-third > majority in Parliament. > > Sabiha: And they still have that excuse. > > Woman: But you see Nawaz Sharif is saying that he will reinstate the judges. > So they [PPP] should agree with that. > > Sabiha: So why don't they? > > Woman: That's the thing! > > Sabiha: So I would rather go with the one who has done something like bring > women into Parliament, make the Hudood Ordinance ineffective.... > > Woman 1 and 2 in chorus: Then why didn't he do more?! > > Woman: He could have done everything but he didn't. You know political > parties don't have so much power. They have to be careful. But this man had > all the powers then why didn't he just kill the jihadis. > > Woman's husband: And the thing is that they actually like him in India. > [Editor's note: Visit the campuses of Chinese universities. Pakistan's > Musharraf is hero to young Chinese women and men.] > > > In Pakistan today liberals should be relieved that President Musharraf held > free and fair elections. But they are not. The election results have forced > liberals to confront their monumental folly of helping to elect despotic and > corrupt rulers. So they are turning around and biting the President's leg, > blaming him for not being a full-blooded dictator. President Musharraf is > damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. > > > Also, the warriors of democracy are faltering. Liberals are losing > enthusiasm for re-instating that pillar of democracy - the judiciary - since > the Bush administration has signaled its opposition. The PPP too is waffling > on the issue. Speaking to the press, "Zardari parried several questions on > issues like reinstatement of deposed judges ... the PPP leader said that the > matters would be decided by parliament." (Dawn, > Feb. 20, 2008). > > > > For the same reason, liberals' hysterical cries for the President's > resignation have subsided. > > > > Thus lamented Ahmad Faruqui: "Sadly, many Pakistani political leaders and > even some analysts have begun to argue that judicial restoration is not in > the country's interest." (Dawn, Mar. 10, 2008). > > > > > And Zardari is backing the U.S. position and Sharif has also fallen in line. > So, in their Mar. 9 Murree Summit Declaration they skillfully passed the > buck on reinstating the judiciary to the National Assembly: "The restoration > of deposed judges as on November 2, 2007, shall be brought about through a > parliamentary resolution to be passed in the > National Assembly within 30 days of the formation of the federal > government." (Dawn, Mr. 10, 2008). > > > > Even a cursory knowledge of fratricidal Pakistani politics will show that > the resolution will not see the light of day. In other words, reinstatement > has been shelved as per instructions from the U.S. embassy. (Flat-footed > analysts predictably missed the obvious sleight of hand and gloated the > Declaration is a serious set back to President Musharraf.). > > The backsliding continues. While addressing the Sindh High Court Bar > Association, Aitzaz Ahsan glibly abandoned the demand for justice for > victims of the Karachi bloodbath: "I have forgotten the May 12 mayhem," he > advised the lawyers, "and would like to request that it is better for all of > us toforget that tragic incident." (Dawn, Mar. 6, 2008). > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- bbc urdu font > http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/# From arshad.mcrc at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 18:46:44 2008 From: arshad.mcrc at gmail.com (arshad amanullah) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:16:44 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Distant Campuses of AMU: Why Not in Bihar? Message-ID: <2076f31d0803310616v546de214obcaf549c10169fe2@mail.gmail.com> Distant Campuses of AMU: Why Not in Bihar? The AMU is comprehensively debating the idea of having distant campuses in different parts of India. While, the statutory restrictions/ambiguities still remain to be clarified as to whether the AMU Act mandates us to go for such exercise. Statutory restrictions (if any) apart, this particular idea of the VC to have distant campuses is just extremely laudable. [One fails to understand as to what has been the basis of identifying particular regions/places to be chosen for establishing the distant campuses of AMU]. However, if it does give us a mandate, we should consider the proposal that Bihar deserves to have such campus for more reasons than one: It has lesser number of institutions (government or private) than it requires, which puts a lot of pressure on other institutions like AMU, Aligarh. It may be added here that even relatively low quality schools in Aligarh are getting large chunk of Bihari students. Recent reports publicized by the government and other reliable agencies do testify that the remittance economy from the West Asian Gulf countries have created affordability to this section of population for modern education. They therefore are needed to be provided with such facilities. Moreover, according to experts, in Bihar, the reasons for relatively greater urge for modern education among Muslims is because of the fact that the largest chunk of the Muslims are grouped into the lists of Backward Castes (Annexure-2) and Most/Extremely Backward Castes (Annexure-1), since 1978, which facilitates the expanded opportunity of reservations in the government employment. Be it the reports of the Bihar State Minorities Commission/ADRI (2005) or the Sachar Committee Report, it stands testified that education among Muslims of Bihar is relatively low; therefore the state-funding should be allocated more for such sections. If the Union Ministry of HRD is willing to give the AMU Rs 1200 crores for the purpose, a proportionate amount of the fund must be earmarked for West Bengal and Bihar, in that order. No other region would deserve it more than these two provinces. By way of suggestion, it may also be proposed that the long standing Insaan School of Kishanganj, Bihar, may be requested to come forward in this exercise of having distant campuses of AMU. This particular institution [founded by Padam Shri, Syed Hasan], till 1980s, used to be a quality institution which has produced great luminaries like talented doctors, journalists and civil servants (some of them graduated from AMU itself). If the negotiation with the Insaan School materializes, then one great advantage with the AMU would be that it will not face the problem of procuring land as the Insaan School possesses sufficient land. We need not add that the 70% of the population of the district of Kishanganj comprises of Muslims, with painfully low degree of literacy. Of late, this historic institution has fallen into crises, it would therefore, be great if the recent exercise of AMU could rescue the institution from such crises. If this negotiation fails to materialize then only we should explore other places in Bihar. Greater preference should be given to opening Polytechnic (Diploma Engineering) and Industrial Training Institutes (ITI) type of employment oriented courses, besides the senior secondary schools (which would provide the feeder students to such courses), if possible. Mohammad Sajjad Lecturer, History, AMU sajjad.history at gmail.com From raviv at sarai.net Tue Mar 25 09:26:22 2008 From: raviv at sarai.net (Ravi S. Vasudevan) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 09:26:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] call for phd applications Message-ID: <47E877E6.6080203@sarai.net> Ruprecht‐Karls‐Universität Heidelberg Cluster of Excellence: Asia and Europe in a Global Context: Shifting Asymmetries in Cultural Flows The Graduate School for Transcultural Studies (GSTS) is part of the Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context: Shifting Asymmetries in Cultural Flows" at the University of Heidelberg (http://www.vjc.uni‐hd.de/). The objective of the Cluster is to examine processes of cultural exchange with a strong focus on interdisciplinary research. The Cluster challenges the master narrative of asymmetrical Western domination along with its historical explanation, its methodology and the resulting structures of humanities and social science research. Starting from winter term 2008 the GSTS offers within its doctoral program 16 doctoral/PhD scholarships in transcultural studies. The GSTS is looking for applicants with an excellent academic background interested in completing a doctoral degree at the University of Heidelberg. Applicants are required to have graduated at a Master level or equivalent by the time of their application. Scholarships are available from 2008 to both home/EU and overseas students up to the age of thirty. They range from 1,000 to 1,400 € per month, depending on family allowance. The scholarships are awarded for two years with possibility of extension for a third year. Eight scholarships are reserved for students from Asia. The doctoral program addresses applicants with above‐average university degree whose PhD‐project fits in one of the Cluster's four Research Areas (http://www.vjc.uni‐hd.de/areas.htm). Currently contributors to the Cluster work in the fields of Anthropology, Archeology, Art History, South and East Asian Studies, Assyriology, Cultural Studies, English Philology, Ethnology, Geography, History, Indology, Islamic Studies, Musicology, Philosophy, Political Science, Public Health, Religious Studies, Sinology, Sociology and others. Reflecting the interdisciplinary approach of the Cluster, the GSTS invites M.A. holders from these as well as other disciplines from the humanities and social sciences to apply. Electronic submission of the application is mandatory. Deadline for application is May 1st, 2008. For details see the Online Application System at http://www.vjc.uni‐hd.de/graduate.htm. _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From jgtea at comcast.net Mon Mar 31 17:29:26 2008 From: jgtea at comcast.net (Jude) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 06:59:26 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [issuesonline_worldwide] Essay - Pakistan's Post Musharraf Policy by Murtaza Shibli In-Reply-To: <306974.24213.qm@web27812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <306974.24213.qm@web27812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006001c89326$bc14f6f0$6401a8c0@judya7a172c292> This is our way of building for a new war in the ME, be sensible folks. Jude _____ From: issuesonline_worldwide at yahoogroups.com [mailto:issuesonline_worldwide at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kashmir Affairs Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:07 PM To: reader-list at sarai.net Subject: [issuesonline_worldwide] Essay - Pakistan's Post Musharraf Policy by Murtaza Shibli ‘Real Democracy’: Pakistan’s Post-Musharraf Kashmir Policy Murtaza Shibli Editor Kashmir Affairs, London [www.kashmiraffairs.org] ‘Era of real democracy has begun in the country.’[1] Pervez Musharraf Summary The recently concluded elections in Pakistan have led to the decline in the fortunes of the General-turned-President Pervez Musharraf. Although he is still hanging onto power thanks to open American support, his influence on the country’s political decision making has weakened significantly. Much before the new government headed by Prime Minister Makhdoom Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani took over; Musharraf’s much publicised Kashmir Policy was on the wane. There seems to be a consensus evolving among the leading politicians and the Army about the unsuitability of the current Kashmir policy that saw Pakistan retreating from its support for the UN Resolutions and right to self determination. Even Musharraf’s former political partners and colleagues from the Pakistan Muslim League (Q) have taken umbrage with the beleaguered President on the issue. Sensing the mood, the pro-Musharraf Kashmiri groups and activists have gone on defensive; shifting their allegiances in order to stay relevant in the new political milieu. Some of them have apologised for their support to Musharraf or criticized him for his ‘failed’ Kashmir policy. Although pro-Pakistan and anti-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders, including the Hurriyat Conference (G) leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, are jubilant over the developments, Kashmiris are watching with caution.Pakistani politicians like Asif Zardari, Mian Nawaz Sharif and others have issued some statements that smack of traditional rhetoric, while the new Army Chief General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani has also hinted at the policy shift. Despite all this, there isn’t much Pakistan can do with regards to Kashmir; given its current internal crisis and unprecedented American pressure. Pakistan cannot afford to cease the ‘peace process’, but it might gradually retreat to its traditional position; increase its diplomatic efforts and seek international mediation and offer limited but symbolic support for the Kashmiri resistance. The progress on the issue can only be achieved if India is willing to shift from its maximalist position and offer some concrete and sensible options for the solution of the problem. Otherwise, the thaw that was achieved during the last few years in India-Pakistan relations cannot be sustained for long and, as in the past, Kashmir could vitiate the atmosphere with dangerous consequences. Background In the aftermath of 9/11, when Pervez Musharraf announced a U-turn on his country’s Kashmir policy, he was met with resistance and open hostility both at home and in Kashmir. However, supported by the US and covert Indian blessing, he propped up ‘yes men’ by buying the loyalty of some Kashmiri leaders through his intelligence agencies. As a result, the Pakistani government recognised the Hurriyat Conference faction led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq while sidelining the most senior Kashmiri resistance leader Syed Ali Geelani, whose rival faction of the Hurriyat Conference was previously declared as the ‘true representative of Kashmiris’ by the Pakistani government. Directed by Pakistan, the Hurriyat Conference (M) started unconditional dialogue with the Indian government ‘within the ambit of the Indian Constitution’.[2] Around the same time in 2003, Pakistani intelligence agencies propped up Kashmir Centres in Belgium, London and Washington with the covert aim of promoting Musharraf and his ‘formulas’ on Kashmir. These Centres, in conjunction with the Hurriyat Conference (M) and other splinter groups formed the core group of Musharraf loyalists who promoted his ‘out-of-box’ thinking without any appreciation to its political merits or application. Thus began an unprecedented understanding between India and Pakistan - the bitter rivals who now directed the Kashmiri politicians for a mutual goal of burying the issue for all times to come. The Indian intelligence agencies allowed free flow of the Hurriyat Conference (M) leaders from Srinagar to Islamabad as well as mutual exchange of cultural groups, intellectuals following traditional conflict pacification exercises. The Kashmir Centres formed the main plank of Musharraf as they promoted him through annual ‘international conferences’ and other such events. Although these centres were never able to inculcate any good faith among Kashmiris and raised nothing but suspicion, they became important tools in the game. Apparently, their utility and function was presented in such an exaggerated form that in September 2006, General Musharraf broke all the protocol and attended the Third Global Discourse on Kashmir 2006 held by the Kashmir Centre, Brussels. Welcoming him to the Discourse held at the European Parliament, Executive Director of the Centre, Barrister Majid Tramboo called Musharraf’s participation as a demonstration of his “love and affection towards Kashmiri people”[3] and commended him “wholeheartedly... for ... [his] courage and wisdom to offer new and creative thoughts.”[4] In response Musharraf said that it was “indeed a pleasure, unique honour and a privilege to be in this gathering of the Global Discourse on Kashmir.”[5] In Azad Jammu and Kashmir, the Muslim Conference run by Sardar Abdul Qayoom Khan and his protégé son and the current Prime Minister Sardar Attique Ahmad Khan also allied with General Musharraf to perpetuate the family grip on power. The veteran Sardar Qayoom who credits himself for being Mujah-e-Awwal or first warrior for his claims to have fired the first bullet in rebellion against the autocratic rule of Maharaja Hari Singh in 1947, supported Musharraf’s Kashmir policy and declared the ‘end of Jihad’ in Kashmir claiming its futility. As a representative of the Musharraf government, Khan on Sunday, September 25, 2005 while speaking at a function in New Delhi declared: “Jihad was terrorism and the mujahideen were saboteurs of peace in the region.”[6] Azad Kashmir’s opposition alleged that it was due to this unfettered loyalty of Khan’s for Musharraf that the Pakistani intelligence rigged the 2006 elections in Azad Jammu and Kashmir and installed Sardar Attique Khan in power. In gratitude and to prove his pro-Musharraf credentials beyond doubt, Sardar Attique Khan on August 23, 2007 stated that “General Musharraf should remain the President of Pakistan as long as he was physically fit” adding “the role of military in the civilian affairs in Pakistan was unavoidable.”[7] These Kashmiri leaders, from the Hurriyat Conference (M), Muslim Conference led by Sardar Qayoom and the Executive Directors of the Kashmir Centres in the West, continued their train of sycophancy till late last year, not only misleading the President about the utility and acceptance of his policies vis-a-vis Kashmir but also for their own financial gain, as they were allegedly being paid hefty sums of money to run these centres. Even when his re-election as President was widely criticised in Pakistan, the activists of Hurriyat Conference (M) took out a procession in Srinagar and burst crackers to celebrate the victory of General Pervez Musharraf.[8] This symbiotic relationship went beyond political posturing when the Hurriyat Conference (M) openly supported the imposition of Emergency in Pakistan. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was the first Kashmiri to lend his support to Musharraf, while the senior leader Professor Abdul Ghani Bhat criticised the deposed judges claiming “there has to be harmony among the three pillars of the state - the executive, the legislature and the judiciary.”[9] Similar sentiments were expressed by a Western based Kashmiri leader when I asked him to comment on the crisis in November 2007 adding that the General Musharraf is the people of Pakistan. Commenting on the relationship of the Hurriyat Conference with General Musharraf, noted Indian columnist and former diplomat Kuldip Nayyar in one of his recent opinion pieces observed that the “Hurriyat [Mirwaiz group] ended up putting all its eggs in Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf’s basket.”[10] Kashmir Solidarity Day - Back to Basics Following massive public outpouring and international criticism against his emergency rule, Musharraf was forced to give up the post of his Army Chief in November 2007. This effectively limited his ability to manoeuvre, interfere or exert pressure on political matters. As soon as General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani took over as Chief of Army Staff, voices against Musharraf’s Kashmir policy grew stronger and turned into an outpouring. As Musharraf’s fortunes started dwindling and his options ran out amidst growing public protest, he tried the age-old gambit that every Pakistani leader had tried successfully - Kashmir. On January 25 his government announced that it was preparing to observe ‘Kashmir Solidarity Day’ on February 5, a yearly celebration that had been virtually thrown into oblivion in the past few years, with ‘renewed commitment’. Musharraf’s Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Muhammad Ali Durrani said “Kashmir Solidarity Day would be observed with zeal and fervour and the entire Pakistani nation would stand shoulder-to-shoulder by their Kashmiri brethren”, adding that it “renews our commitment to the resolution of the long-standing dispute.” He could not hide his government’s intention of using the event as a public relations exercise for the beleaguered President when he claimed “the vision of President Pervez Musharraf on Kashmir dispute is very clear i.e. the resolution of Kashmir issue should be in line with the aspirations and wishes of the Kashmiri people.”[11] Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs, Tahir Iqbal expressed similar thoughts; “Kashmir Solidarity Day would be observed this year with renewed zest as the need for worldwide projection of Kashmir dispute has become imperative.” He too lavished praise on Musharraf claiming he had “adopted an optimistic approach towards the issue and .. succeeded in getting Kashmir issue globally recognized.” “On Solidarity Day”, he said, “Pakistan, through its planned events... would reassure its moral, diplomatic and political support to our Kashmiri brethren.”[12] The immediate reaction to the official plans came from the Jama’at-e-Islami Pakistan when its Secretary General denounced the Interior Ministry saying it was ‘making a mockery of the Kashmir struggle’.[13] On February 5, Kashmir Solidarity Day was celebrated throughout Pakistan reminiscing the early 1990s - euphoric political rallies and ‘Jihad conferences’. Kashmir Solidarity was a public holiday and all the government, semi government offices, educational institutions, commercial centres and markets remained closed. Newspapers brought special supplements while Radio and TV channels aired special programmes and talks. In his ‘Kashmir Day’ message Pervez Musharraf tried to rattle the emotions of his nation as he thundered, “We (Pakistanis) cannot be kept away from the Kashmiris by the Ceasefire Line for much longer.”[14] The leading Pakistani daily The Nation in its editorial termed this statement as a “hidden announcement of pugnacity” while accusing Musharraf of being “architect of the policy of supine acceptance of equating the Kashmiris’ just freedom struggle with terrorism.”[15] Pakistan Muslim League-Q (PML-Q) which shared power with Musharraf also held a seminar in Lahore where the speakers “expressed a common view that Kashmir would be liberated only through force” adding that “their party was upholding and continuing the struggle for Kashmir liberation right according to the idea perceived by Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah.” They reiterated that after the failure of peaceful dialogue with India “now the solution needs settlement by using force.”[16] Mushahid Hussain Syed, Secretary General of the PML-Q pledged to make a “national Kashmir strategy with all political parties on board if his party came into power.” Speaking at a seminar on Kashmir Day, Syed called for a review of his own government’s Kashmir policy adding “we honestly believe that the United Nations Resolution[s] on Kashmir is a roadmap for solving the issue.”[17] Similar functions were held in Sindh and at its capital Karachi, the stronghold of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) that was part of the previous pro-Musharraf government. “A number of organizations took out rallies and held seminars to show their solidarity with the people of Kashmir and vowed to extend full support to them to help ensure their right of franchise.”[18] This exhibit of official sentiment for Kashmir was drowned under the mass of unofficial functions of the opposition that condemned Musharraf’s Kashmir policy amid renewing calls of support for their ‘Kashmiri brethren’. In Lahore, a number of Pakistani and Kashmiri political and social organisations arranged rallies, seminars and symposia. Among these were PML-N, Jama’at-e-Islami, Khaksar Tehrik, Jamiat Mashaikh, Peoples Muslim League J&K, Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front, Kashmir Action Committee and extremist organisation Jamat-ud-Dawah etc. The strongest message emanated from the Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz (PML-N) headed by the former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharief whose party PML-N emerged as the second biggest party in the recent elections. President of the party, Mian Shahbaz Sharif accused the Musharraf government of making a U-turn on Kashmir calling it treachery and “vowed that after coming into power, PML-N would liberate the Kashmiris from the cruel clutches of India and restore the dignity of Army.”[19] Another leader of the party, Dr. Azim-ud-Din Zahid blamed the government that it had “provided an opportunity to India to affix barbed wire along the Line of Control after taking U-turn on Kashmir issue.”[20] The Islamist party, Jama’at-e-Islami Pakistan that boycotted the recent election also held various public functions. In one of its largest public functions in Lahore, one of its senior leaders and former senator Liaquat Baloch said that Kashmir issue can only be resolved through the UN Resolutions, claiming that “solutions proposed by Musharraf are aimed at allowing India to strengthen its grip over the state.” Secretary-General of the party, Syed Munawwar Hasan said “Musharraf lacked the legitimacy and mandate to rule the country ... [and as such he] did not have any moral authority or influence to alter the Pakistan’s principled policy and stance over Kashmir.” Head of the party in Karachi, Muhammad Hussain Mahanti said “the success of the Kashmir Day solidarity rally had once again proved that the people were ready to take to streets to support the cause of Kashmiris in their fight for freedom from oppression and pressurise the rulers not to change the Pakistan’s decades-old and time-tested stance over Kashmir.”[21] General Musharraf could not even escape criticism from his own ilk. A group of former Generals - Mirza Aslam Baig; former Army Chief, Faiz Ali Chishti, Hameed Gul; former head of ISI, Jamshaid Gulzar Kiyani, Asad Durrani, Sardar Anwar Khan; former President of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Abdul Qayyum and Ali Quli Khan; former Army Chief - gathered at a seminar in Rawalpindi, the military nerve centre. They criticised Musharraf for his ‘faulty policies on Kashmir’ claiming he ‘had moved the Kashmir issue to the backburner’. Former General Abdul Qayyum claimed “Kashmir could only be liberated by waging Jihad” while the former ISI chief General Hameed Gul said “Srinagar is just as important as Islamabad for Pakistanis,”[22] adding “we have relationship with Kashmiris on the basis of life and death.”[23] Winds of Change As the situation unfolded, the pro-Musharraf Kashmiris slowly started shifting their postures. In December 2007, the Hurriyat Conference (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq not only admitted that talks with India had been un-productive but also blamed New Delhi of engaging Kashmiri leadership “in talks not for the solution of Kashmir ... but for stop gap arrangements.”[24] Ultimately, the Mirwaiz led Hurriyat Conference pulled out of talks with the Indian government less than three weeks before the 18 February elections in Pakistan. Speaking to reporters in Srinagar, Mirwaiz said that his group was pulling out of the four-year old dialogue process as it did not yield anything.[25] Admitting the unpopularity of dialogue with New Delhi, senior Hurriyat leader Nayeem Ahmad Khan said “the dialogue process had affected their credibility among the Kashmiri people.”[26] Frustrated and dejected, many pro-Musharraf Kashmiri loyalists were boosting their sagging morale with spurious forecasts they were receiving from their pro-Musharraf contacts in Pakistan. Only a couple of months before the elections, one of the senior Kashmiri ‘leaders’ warned me about the futility of my writings against Musharraf’s imposition of Emergency, prophesying that Musharraf’s supported party PML-Q was definitely winning the elections and that the new Prime Minister would be Mushahid Hussain Syed. Similar information was perhaps passed to a noted Srinagar based columnist, Zahid Ghulam Muhammad, who attended the Kashmir Centre, London sponsored, 3rd International Kashmir Peace Conference on 28th and 29th of November in London. A week prior to the elections, he predicted in his weekly column, Punchline in Srinagar based daily Greater Kashmir: “In the given scenario there seems better chance for the Muslim League (Q) and other allied parties for coming to power in Pakistan.” He went further to complete the puzzle; “If the ability to understand the nuances of the domestic politics and to gauge the pulse of international politics are the criteria for the new Prime Minister then there is every likelihood of Pakistan Muslim League (Q) Mushaid Hussain Syed becoming the next Prime Minister of Pakistan.”[27] ‘Naya Kashmir’ After fiddling with many ‘out-of-box’ ideas and ‘formulas’, Pervez Musharraf’s government was to implement a new and fast action plan for Kashmir - pro-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders will participate in the elections and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq will take over as Chief Minister, a la Showkat Aziz or Hamid Karzai and his faction of the Hurriyat Conference will call for the resistance militants to disarm with similar calls from Azad Kashmir Government and other pro-Musharraf Kashmiri activists, effectively ending the resistance movement repeating Sheikh Abdullah’s disbanding of Mahaz-e-Rai Shumari or Plebiscite Front in 1974 after he was given the position of Chief Minister-ship without even contesting elections. Although the background preparatory work had been in full swing for more than last two years, some public functions were planned for favourable symbolic value that could soften the public opinion and thus lessen any public outrage or reaction. This also included a comprehensive ‘media plan’ – buying out the journalists and newspapers in order to stop negative media coverage. One such alleged public function was the 3rd International Kashmir Peace Conference held at London on 28-29 November 2007 where the Hurriyat Conference (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and pro-India National Conference President Omar Abdullah were invited among other Kashmiri leaders. Allegedly, the two leaders were to address a joint press conference calling for peaceful solution of the Kashmir problem and launch a joint communiqué to work together for the peace and resolution of Kashmir. Had this followed according to the plan, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Omar Abdullah might have joined forces and launched a joint election campaign by now. However, the conference received unprecedented opposition for its organiser Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl could not handle the operation and raised suspicions. This created public concerns amid condemnations and a rival conference in the British Parliament. There was a general feeling that the Conference was offering a platform to Omar Abdullah and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq for their future electoral alliance.[28] A leader of the UK based All Party Kashmir Coordination Committee while opposing the conference claimed that it “was a joint game plan of both the countries and aims to create harmony between pro-India and pro-Pakistan groups for the sake of coming elections in the Indian side of Kashmir.”[29] Due to massive public outcry, the conference aims could not be achieved and the planned joint communiqué was abandoned. In addition, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq had to publicly deny any pre-election equation with Omar Abdullah. This failure was so upsetting that only a week later when Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Inamul Haq visited New Delhi, he did not meet any Kashmiri leaders, a departure from Pakistan’s practice “perhaps for the first time in the last two decades.”[30] During his three day stay in New Delhi, Haq did not invite any Kashmiri leaders for any formal or informal interaction perhaps to avoid questions from Hurriyat Conference (G) which had planned a strong protest with the visiting dignitary about Pakistan’s ‘shameful’ role. The Kashmir Peace Conference created such an embarrassment for the Musharraf regime that any public communiqués or interactions between pro-Musharraf Hurriyat leaders and pro-India Kashmiri politicians were suspended, at least in public. However, the Musharraf regime continued to work with its Indian counterparts to further the plan. According to a news report by a leading Pakistani journalist, Hamid Mir, only days before 18 February 2008 elections, Musharraf’s advisor Tariq Aziz, Srinagar based Hurriyat leaders and Indian officials met in Dubai to discuss the Naya Kashmir Plan exploring various options on Kashmir after the elections.[31] According to informed sources, the meeting was attended by many Hurriyat leaders including Mirwaiz Umar Farooq along with Indian and Pakistani diplomats and intelligence officials. But the Pakistan election results left these plans in tatters with the pro-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders searching for a new cause and identity. New Army chief, New Thinking Pervez Musharraf sealed his fate the day he handed over the reins of powerful Army to his new Chief General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani. Soon after his takeover, Kayani set out his priority to repair the image of his Army. He gradually distanced the Army and the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) from political activities; thus tilting the balance against Musharraf loyalists. This was precisely due to the new Army Chief that the elections could not be rigged as Musharraf had done in 2002. In order to restore confidence among the public, General Kayani, earlier this year issued directives barring army personnel from holding civilian offices.[32] He showed determination to curtail any public perception of the Army’s involvement in politics and sent a ‘note of displeasure’ to the Corps Commander Lt. General Shafaatullah Shah for holding an unauthorised meeting with the caretaker Prime Minister Muhammadmian Soomro.[33] Lt. General Shah was one of the most favourite Corps Commanders of President General Musharraf.[34] On 25th March, only a few hours after the New Prime Minister took over, General Kayani announced a major reshuffle in the army appointing new corps commanders at Mangla and Lahore, “triggering off speculation that Musharraf’s authority is being undermined.”[35] He also removed President Musharraf’s favourite Corps Commander Lt. General Shafaatullah Shah.[36] The News in its editorial: A clear message, (26 March 2008), called it a major reshuffle and commented “it is now obvious that the support structure in the administration which President Pervez Musharraf was ordering around has collapsed and the centre of power has shifted.” Elections and Beyond On the election date on 18 February 2008, acting chairman of the Hurriyat Conference (G), Ghulam Nabi Sumji predicted that the polls in Pakistan would end the rule of President Musharraf who, according to him, is responsible for the mess in Pakistan as well as in Kashmir.[37] The election defeat of Musharraf loyalists was widely hailed both in Pakistan and Kashmir. The Kashmiri leaders opposed to Musharraf’s policies welcomed the result with Syed Ali Shah Geelani leading the group. In his first reaction, Geelani called it a good sign for the future of Pakistan and for the ‘Kashmiri freedom movement’ accusing Musharraf that “with the support of his handpicked stooges they compromised ... on the Kashmir issue.” He also accused that Musharraf “yielded much ground to India on the Kashmir issue despite enormous sacrifices rendered both by Pakistan and people of Kashmir during the past 60 years.”[38] Terming the election results as defeat of Musharraf and rejection of his ‘apologetic Kashmir policy’, he also hoped that the new government will “stick to... traditional stand on Kashmir.”[39] Asiya Andrabi, leader of the woman’s organisation, Dukhtaran-e-Millat, expressed similar sentiments saying “anybody who comes to power will be better than Musharraf”, who according to her “betrayed ideology [of]... Pakistan ... and ... the Kashmir cause.”[40] The immediate reaction of the pro-Musharraf Hurrriyat Conference was that of frustration and desperation. Senior leader of the group, Shabir Shah hoped that “whosoever comes to power... will support our cause in future” while apologetically admitting that his group had made mistakes in the past like “celebrating Pervez Musharraf’s re-election as the President when the Hurriyat activists burst crackers in Srinagar.”[41] A splinter group of JKLF led by Barrister Majid Tramboo came out with the strongest statement against General Musharraf, saying that “the people of Pakistan have rejected the negative approach of their President Gen Pervez Musharraf regarding the solution of Kashmir issue”. A senior leader of the party, Farooq Ahmad Dar, termed the election results as “clear answer to the four point formula of Musharraf.”[42] It is worth mentioning that not long ago, in September 2007 (24-25) Barrister Tramboo’s Kashmir Centre sponsored a two day Geneva Convention on Kashmir that supported Musharraf’s Four Point Formula. Not strange, the first theme of the Convention discussed on 24th September was titled: The challenging times – a review of President Musharraf’s four point formula, wherein the speakers commended General Musharraf for his ‘vision and leadership’. The election results have created a mood of indignation in India about a possible policy change with a growing feeling in New Delhi that it may not now be possible to settle Kashmir on the Indian terms as accepted and agreed by General Musharraf. The pro-India National Conference leader Omar Abdullah, who had met with General Musharraf in Pakistan in 2006, said that India has missed the ‘golden opportunity’ to settle Kashmir while Musharraf was in power.[43] Many Kashmiri analysts have made similar observations. New Delhi based Kashmiri journalist Iftikhar Gilani was of the opinion that the poll results will impact the situation in Kashmir.[44] Athar Parvaiz, a Kashmir Times writer opined that Pakistan’s Kashmir policy was bound to undergo a lot of transformation adding that Pakistan might not give accordance to pro-India Kashmiri leaders and may go into “old time revulsion towards them thanks to the return of a truly popular government”. The author was of the view that, “whatever the new dispensation in Pakistan, Pakistan's policy about Kashmir issue is bound to witness a transformation”, observing that “defeats suffered by most of the ministers in the former Musharraf-led government, can be traced, among other reasons, to Pakistan's renewed policy about Kashmir in recent years.”[45] Sensing change, senior pro-India politician and leader of National Conference Ali Mohammad Sagar said “New Government in Pakistan can have a different Kashmir policy and for [the] time being it seems that the dialogue process between India and Pakistan would get delayed.”[46] Asif Ali Zardari: Boomerang Effect While the negotiations for the new government were full on, Asif Ali Zardari was being courted by the American diplomats on daily basis trying to influence him to stay away from Nawaz Sharif and accept a deal with Musharraf on the basis of a working relationship.[47] The Americans also reportedly wanted his assurances on the India-Pakistan ‘peace process’ and that the future government will continue with Musharraf’s Kashmir policy. Under intense US pressure, Asif Asif Ali Zardari, in a television interview made a statement calling for freezing the Kashmir issue for future generations in order to continue trade and dialogue with India. Zardari, while speaking to a leading Indian journalist Karan Thapar on CNN-IBN’s Devil's Advocate programme, said that “Kashmir issue should be left aside for future generations to solve and right now India and Pakistan should focus on improving the bilateral relations by strengthening trade and economic ties.”[48] He also opined that “normalisation of relations between the two countries should not become hostage to the Kashmir issue.”[49] The reaction that followed was unprecedented and gave a strong indication of pent up anger that Musharraf’s Kashmir policy had created. Zardari’s statement led to strong condemnation from all the Kashmiri groups – pro-freedom, pro-India and resistance militant groups alike. Even those who were die-hard supporters of Musharraf only days ago lent their support to the growing condemnation indicating that they can’t remain oblivious to the new political realities. The United Jihad Council (UJC), conglomerate of 13 militant outfits termed Zardari’s statement as “political immaturity’ accusing him of being ‘unaware about the history and ignorant about the Kashmir issue.”[50] Giving an indication about the change in Pakistan’s policy, Muzzaffarabad based spokesman of the UJC, Syed Sadaqat Hussain said that Zardari “does not know anything about his country’s policies.”[51] The chairman of the Hurriyat conference (G) Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Zaradari’s statement will have no affect on the disputed nature of Kashmir. “He can talk whatever he wants, who cares,” Geelani told Rising Kashmir.[52] Pro-Musharraf Hurriyat leader Shabir Ahmad Shah termed the statement irrelevant while Abbas Ansari said “till Kashmir issue is solved, the distances [between India and Pakistan] would not vanish.” Later the Hurriyat Conference (M) called its Executive Council meeting which expressed deep concerns over Zardari’s statement and said that Zardari’s statement “was not in line with the Pakistan Peoples Party's Kashmir policy.”[53] Pro-Musharraf JKLF led by Majid Tramboo strongly condemned Zardari’s unrealistic statement. Commenting on Zardari’s statement, the spokesman of the group said that it “gives an indication about his political bankruptcy. We have not given him any mandate on Kashmir issue [so] he should mind his own business.”[54] Zardari even drew flak from the pro-India politicians. Chairman of the Peoples’ Conference Sajad Gani Lone called it an “idealistic statement”, urging “the people to protest.”[55] Leader of the opposition in the pro-India Kashmiri Assembly and the National Conference senior functionary, Abdul Rahim Rather told Kashmir Times that his party was “pretty upset”. Elaborating, he said, “how else can we react to such a statement when our people are getting killed because of the non-resolution of the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan?”[56] Omar Abdullah, President of National Conference “warned that freezing Kashmir without finding a solution would prove dangerous not only for India but for Pakistan as well.”[57] Another prominent pro-India politician and chairperson of the People’s Democratic Party (PDP), Mehbooba Mufti questioned the need for issuing such statements saying that the resolution of Kashmir needs to be carried forward rather than putting in cold storage.[58] Sardar Qayoom Khan, the octogenarian Azad Kashmiri politician and former Prime Minister, who is known for making U-turns also lashed out at Zardari. Khan who had joined Musharraf’s Kashmir policy ditching his old avatar of Mujahid-e-Awwal had previously condemned Kashmiri militants and declared ‘end of Jihad’ in Kashmir, calling it a futile exercise. Under the new political order, Sardar Qayoom took strong exception to Zardari’s statement warning that “friendly relations between India and Pakistan would always be short-lived and unpredictable until the root cause of all problems – Kashmir issue was resolved.”[59] Qayoom went further and justified the need for militant resistance saying: “militancy... should remain ... a force to reckon with for forcing India to agree on a negotiated settlement of the issue.”[60] Asif Zardari couldn’t resist the barrage of criticism and had to ‘clarify’ his position. Retracting from his old statement, he described Kashmir “as an integral part of Pakistan and said that he would never betray the sacrifices of those who had given their lives for Kashmir.” He called Kashmir issue as the reason for the founding of the PPP by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto; “I started my political mission from Shaheed Benazir Bhutto’s grave at Garhi Khuda Bhuksh. If I have to keep her trust, how can I betray the trust of 90,000 other martyrs who have lost their lives in Kashmir?”[61] Zardari made subsequent clarifications to assuage the tempers. He revealed that his father Hakim Ali Zardari fought as a volunteer in the 1948 war to liberate Kashmir and was proud of that.[62] The public pressure that forced powerful Zardari to issue ‘clarification’ indicates that Kashmir policy is certainly shifting from Musharraf’s so-called pro-India policy directed by the US. The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre Washington, Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai ‘expressed satisfaction over the statement saying “the clarification by the PPP ... has been viewed as reassuring by the general public in Pakistan as well as in Kashmir.” Dr. Fai, who is well known for his caution and conformism, was surprisingly firm and advised Pakistani leaders “in responsible positions ... to exercise discretion when issuing statements that may undermine Kashmiri aspiration.” In his press statement he called upon the leaders for “a more nuanced approach to such a sensitive and emotive issue as freedom struggle of the people of Kashmir [which] will help lessen the public’s distrust of politicians” and demanded that the Kashmir conflict must be resolved prognosticating that any “attempts at conflict management will never succeed.”[63] The American ‘meddling’ The proverbial trio of Pakistan’s politics – Allah, Army and America seems to have been reconfigured in reverse order with the Americans enjoying on the top. The US influence is so powerful that they virtually seem to be running every aspect of Pakistani life as allowed by Musharraf in his last eight years of rule. They are said to have unacknowledged military basis, secret prisons and torture centres with powers to detain Pakistani citizens and thousands of secret agents running around in the country without any legal or bureaucratic fetters. This is the main reason that the Americans are against the reinstatement of Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhary who was adamant in upholding the law and wanted to know the fate of thousands that have gone missing in Musharraf’s regime with many of them ending up in secret American prisons and torture cells. The majority of the Pakistanis see the US and its War on Terror the main reason for problems in the tribal areas and resultant suicide bombings. Speaking at a Kashmir rally on 5 February in Lahore, Jama’at-e-Islami leader Liaqat Baloch “castigated President Musharraf for acting as a tool in the hands of Washington to make Pakistan a failed state as per US agenda.”[64] Many also blame US pressure for Musharraf’s U-turn on Kashmir. Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz leader, Dr Azim ud Din Zahid while speaking at a meeting to commemorate Kashmir Solidarity Day said “on the direction of the US administration, moral and financial help to Kashmiris was stopped”.[65] The American support for Musharraf - from sacking of the judges to the imposition of Emergency and tacit approval for his crackdown on the secular civil society has given rise to massive anger against the US. Such sentiments are no more confined to the Islamist fringe groups. As the first election results were out, former Army Chief General Mirza Aslam Beg called it a decision against America in his comment on Pakistani television channel Geo TV, saying that the next Prime Minister will be elected by the people of Pakistan and not by the US.[66] Buoyed by the election results, when the calls for Musharraf’s resignation grew louder, the US Secretary of the State Condoleezza Rice openly came to the rescue of General Musharraf; “The President of Pakistan is Pervez Musharraf ... And so, of course, we will deal with him. We will continue to pursue the American interests, which are for a stable and democratic Pakistan.”[67] Since the elections, the American influence in Pakistan has become more pronounced, open and corrosive. Soon after the results, it was a strange scene to see the American diplomats literally taking charge for the formation of the new government as well as trying to block potential political alliances. The American Ambassador in Islamabad, Anne W Patterson openly held meetings with the Pakistani politicians suggesting future role for Musharraf. On 25 March, the day the new Prime Minister Makhdoom Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani was sworn in, the American presence in Islamabad was felt very strongly and raised a lot of suspicion that they are trying to hijack the democratic government. When the Pakistani politicians were busy in forming the new government, the US Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte along with Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia Richard Boucher held meetings with Pervez Musharraf, Chief of the Army Staff and top politicians of the new coalition government including Prime Minister Gilani, Asif Zardari and Nawaz Sharif.[68] Former Pakistani Foreign Secretary Riaz Khokhar called it ‘crude diplomacy’. In his comments with the leading Pakistani anchor Kamran Khan in Aaj Kamran Khan Ke Sath he accused the Americans of arm twisting. In the same programme, Pakistani analyst Shafqat Mehmood commented that Americans are showing the power and influence they have got in Pakistan. Frustrated by this brazen behaviour, Kamran Khan threw a general question at the Pakistani audience; “Where is our honour and dignity?”[69] Former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif could not tolerate the US pressure on the Musharraf issue and he told the US delegation that he “considered Musharraf an unconstitutional and illegal head of state.” Sharif later told a press conference that the “new government would review Pakistan’s role in the War on Terror after holding a debate in the parliament and that Pakistan will not play in the US hands.”[70] The timing of this visit by the US envoys caused outrage with the newspapers decrying the visit as ‘American meddling’. “Protestors in at least three cities burned the US flags and waved banners demanding the envoys to go home.”[71] Leading English daily The Dawn titled its editorial about the visit as American Impatience terming the arrival of the US envoys “in indecent haste”, not “in keeping with diplomatic propriety” and calling its objective as “undesirable”.[72] Another leading newspaper, The News urged the US officials to “restrain themselves in further meddling in Pakistan’s affairs.”[73] Given the US influence, its strong presence in the region and its closest ties with India, the new government would be severely restricted and limited in any approach that tries to deal with the Kashmir issue differently from the previous government, knowing the fact that the US is committed to pursue Pakistan to abandon Kashmir in totality. ‘National Consensus’ - The Balancing Act As the anti-Musharraf political forces moved to centre stage, the Army Chief, who was considered a Musharraf ally also started to make more pronounced statements indicating a move from his predecessor’s policies. Therefore, when General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani made open references to ‘National Consensus’ on Kashmir, it was seen as an indication of a possible shift. During his visit to a forward location near the Line of Control (LoC) in Azad Kashmir on 12 February, General Kayani while addressing Army officers highlighted the ‘national consensus’ that exists on Kashmir and “reaffirmed commitment of Pakistan Army to the Kashmir cause, in line with aspirations of Pakistani nation.”[74] Kayani’s statement was widely hailed in Pakistan as well in Kashmir. Hurriyat Conference (G) Convenor “warmly welcomed the statement”[75] and many Pakistani newspapers praised it in their editorials. The English daily Pakistan Observer in its editorial Kayani’s Solidarity with Kashmir Cause dated 14 February called his statement as reassuring “in the perspective of some statements in the recent past by certain political quarters which were disapproved by the people of Pakistan.” Observing that “the people of Pakistan and the armed forces during the last sixty years [have] had a strong commitment to the Kashmir cause”, it called the assurance by the COAS [Chief of the Army Staff] as “satisfying for the people of Pakistan as well as to the Kashmiris”, and hoped that “the new political leadership would keep the resolution of Kashmir issue as the top priority on its agenda while dealing on different issues with India.”[76] Leading English daily The Nation in its editorial called the statement as heartening and “an index of the affinity all the jawans [soldiers] of our armed forces feel for the Kashmir cause.” The paper affirmed Kayani’s statement that there is a national consensus on the issue adding “all genuine political forces with mass appeal agree on the right of the people of Kashmir to choose their own destinies.”[77] Criticizing Musharraf regime’s initiative of peace process, the newspaper observed; “All the miscalculated and overly conciliatory efforts of the regime have been met by Indian smugness and aggression every step of the way” and “sincerely hoped that these leaders can counter some of the damage done on this front by the previous leadership.”[78] Another English daily The Post sought to link the Army Chief’s statement with the earlier statement of Asif Ali Zardari on Kashmir saying “General Kayani wished to set the record straight by reaffirming the army’s commitment to the Kashmir cause.”[79] The utility of General Kayani’s statement can be seen at multiple levels. There is a strong argument that because of the War on Terror and U-turn on Kashmir, the Army is unpopular and therefore it wants to get back into the good books of the people by latching on to Kashmir. Asserting the traditional stand on Kashmir, the Army could certainly help amend some of its tarnished image. There have been many public calls to the new Army Chief from various political and social quarters about many issues including Kashmir and the War on Terror. While General Kayani cannot afford to make a statement over the War on Terror, Kashmir remains the only plausible choice. This would certainly soften the image of army among the local people including Islamic fundamentalists who could thus be persuaded not to attack their own army. His statement could also be seen as a subtle rebuff to the US and an attempt to curtail their unwarranted and crude influence in the Pakistani affairs mainly Kashmir. By highlighting ‘consensus’, Kayani sought to place Kashmir in the centre of his nation’s conscience that cannot be bartered away under any outside pressure. Another function of Kayani’s statement could be to re-assert the Army’s traditional role and authority on the matters of defence as well as Kashmir while the civilian government with a strong mandate has taken over. Previously, the Army has viewed any bonhomie of its politicians with India with suspicion. “Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto was pilloried for being “pro-India” when she attempted to reach an understanding with her counterpart [Indian Prime Minister] Rajiv Gandhi in 1989. Her party was accused of being a “security risk” by the state’s intelligence agencies.” Similarly when “Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif ... tried to reach out to his Indian counterpart Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee in 1999 ... the [Pakistan Army] ...was busy executing its disastrous Kargil Operation in Kashmir.”[80] General Pervez Kayani sent another subtle but strong message about his priorities and persuasions. On Pakistan Day, 23 March, he hosted a reception in honour of the retired Army officers who attended in a large number. Many of these retired officers have publicly criticised Musharraf’s Kashmir policy and called for his resignation. Speaking at the occasion, the Army Chief reiterated that the “Army will always live up to the expectations of the nation”,[81] clearly giving a message of defiance against Musharraf while at the same time seeking reconciliation with his nation. Kashmiri Response Pakistan has always been an important factor in the survival and existence of the Kashmiri political struggle. Whether rightly or wrongly, Pakistan has fired the imagination of Kashmiri people and despite the lack of uniformity in its approach, Pakistan remains a major emotional force for Kashmiris that is deeply embedded in their psyche. Commenting upon the recent elections and its effect on Kashmir, pro-India politician Mehbooba Mufti acknowledged the role and function of the symbol of Pakistan in the Kashmir’s socio-political landscape; “We have a sentimental and geographical affinity with Pakistan.”[82] However, this ‘sentimental’ relationship touched nadir during General Musharraf’s rule. In the aftermath of 9/11, he not only gave up support for the Kashmiris’ freedom and self-determination, but also branded Kashmiri resistance as terrorists.[83] The change meant that the Kashmiri ‘freedom fighters’ in Pakistan and Azad Kashmir were hounded, tortured, arrested and even killed. In March 2006, the ISI arrested and threatened Syed Salahudin, the chief of Hizbul Mujahideen along with many other prominent Kashmiri resistance leaders who were protesting against Musharraf’s Kashmir policy.[84] In mid 2006 when I visited the Indian side of Kashmir, there was a strong feeling that Pakistan was sharing information about the Kashmiri militants with their Indian counterparts and thus helping the Indian Army to liquidate the last vestiges of Kashmiri resistance. Such negative views have persisted in the recent and popular Kashmiri imagination leading to serious trust deficit. Therefore, even if the new Pakistani government and the Army will seek to change that perception, it would find it harder to gain broad reception among the Kashmiris. Under the best circumstances, the die-hard pro-Pakistanis like Syed Ali Geelani may fall in line, but the majority of Kashmiris will wait and watch cautiously, till Pakistan makes some strong and tangible moves that could be seen or interpreted as credible. Resistance Militants - New Hopes? There is a definite optimistic feeling in the militant resistant camp led by Hizbul Mujahideen, the most powerful group fighting the Indian Army. Syed Salah-ud-din, the Supreme Commander of the group, who was forced to keep a low profile during Musharraf years and even arrested in March 2006[85] looked jubilant and confident. Less than a week after General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani stated that there was ‘national consensus’ on Kashmir, Hizb chief and head of the United Jihad Council revealed that Pakistan’s support to the Kashmiri resistance was on ‘as of now’. In an interview with the Indian television channel Times Now, he confirmed that Pakistan is supporting resistance groups and that it cannot stop backing his outfit. Salah-ud-din also dared India saying that “till every inch of ...Kashmir is not freed from India’s control, we will not stop.”[86] On 20 March, only a day after Salah-ud-din made open and candid admission, his organisation Hizbul Mujahiden detonated a massive blast rocking the high security city centre in Srinagar near Jehangir Chowk, one of the highly guarded places in the city with major government offices like Civil Secretariat, Legislative Assembly Complex, the High Court complex, Old Secretariat, headquarters of Crime Branch of police, and a CRPF camp all in an area of few hundred square metres from the site of the blast.[87] According to the police, the blast was to show that militants have the ‘capability to strike in the heart of city’ and they wanted to do something spectacular.[88] Although the blast failed in its intended mission and only ripped through a portion of a fly over wounding about 20 civilians, it gave an indication about the future trajectory of events. New Hopes, New Limitations There is no doubt that the new Pakistani government is a broad-based political coalition that cannot ignore the aspirations of its people on sensitive issue like Kashmir or War on Terror. But despite the rising rhetoric on Kashmir and the Army’s indication to follow the ‘aspirations of nation’, there is not much the new Pakistani government can do apart from keep the issue on backburner, as previously suggested by Asif Ali Zardari. The current international and regional geo-political configurations do not afford Pakistan to suspend the ‘peace process’, however, it would certainly seek to change the complexion of the engagement and try to elicit more and useful response from India. As an alternative, Pakistan can effectively slow down the ‘peace process’ leading to its gradual demise while at the same time giving boost to its diplomatic efforts to internationalise the issue. The indications are that the power structure in Pakistan will settle down in traditional way where the Kashmir was dealt by the Army and its intelligence agency ISI at the operational level in tandem with the sentiments while the politicians will raise it at local, regional and international level and affirm their ‘moral, political and diplomatic support’. The recent diplomatic blitzkrieg during the 11th Summit of the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) held at Dakar, Senegal (14-15 March 2008) also exhibited renewed vigour in the Pakistani establishment to place Kashmir firmly on the international scene. According to reports, the Kashmiri and Pakistani delegation held several high powered meetings to boost the issue. Speaking at a meeting of the OIC Contact Group on Jammu and Kashmir, the OIC Secretary-General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu said “The question of Jammu and Kashmir has been one of the oldest unresolved issues on the agenda of the OIC”, reiterating complete and unflinching support to “the just cause of Kashmir.”[89] “The meeting reaffirmed the long-standing position of the OIC in support of the Kashmiri people's right to self-determination, the protection of their human rights and settlement of the dispute in accordance with relevant OIC and UN Security Council resolutions.”[90] Praising the OIC’s stand on Kashmir, leading Pakistani English daily The Nation observed “It took the Organisation more than a decade to pledge its support for the right to self-determination of the Kashmiris struggling to liberate themselves from the Indian shackles” and enquired about the causes that “constrained the largest grouping of the Muslim countries to keep mum over this issue for so long.”[91] The new government is already coming under a lot of pressure from various political circles to openly move away from Musharraf government’s policies. On March 27, the fundamentalist Jamat-ud-Dawah, parent organisation of the Laskhar-e-Taiyyaba (LeT) militant group, called upon the Pakistani government to end cease-fire on the Line of Control with India. “Pakistan must end ceasefire with India on Line of Control (LoC) and declare Jihad against New Delhi”, said central leader of Jamat-ud-Dawah, Professor Abdur Rahman Makki in Muzzaffarabad, after offering funeral prayers in absentia of the LeT commander Muhammad Siddique, alias Abu Hamza who has died in a gun battle in the Valley previous week. Criticizing the “pro-India and pro-American” policies of the Musharraf government in the past eight years, Makki alleged that “Kashmir cause suffered a lot because of the weakened Kashmir policy of Musharaff.”[92] The open and defiant congregation ‘came as a big surprise, indicative of a possible relaxation of restriction on militant organisations.’[93] Even before the new ministerial portfolios were announced, Asif Ali Zardari handpicked Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman as the new chairman of Parliamentary Committee for Kashmir.[94] Rehman is known for his pro-Taliban, pro-Kashmir and anti-American views and has been previously accused of helping the Taliban and resistance militants in Kashmir. However, he is a skilled politician and negotiator who could bring much needed skills of delicate balancing and moderation, between various fundamentalist groups and the establishment. During Pervez Musharraf’s early years, Rehman visited India as an envoy to boost the India-Pakistan Peace Process. A suave politician, he has been described as “logical, rational, mild, eloquent and very convincing”, who “won hands down.”[95] Choosing Fazl-ur-Rehman as the new chairman of the Parliamentary Committee for Kashmir is a sign that while Pakistan is willing to engage with India and negotiate, it won’t pursue the US-dictated agenda as done by the Musharraf regime. There is every danger that the Kashmir issue may slowly head for a freeze, unless India comes out with some proposals that can offer tangible movement on the ground. Being a dictator, General Musharraf was insulated against any public criticism and moved ahead with India, departing from his country’s traditional stand. There is a strong feeling in Pakistan and Kashmir that despite the unprecedented flexibility of Pakistan and more than four years of Peace Process, Pakistan was not able to get any concession from India, either for herself or for Kashmiris. This was firmly indicated by Asif Zardari, in his joint press conference with the pro-India Kashmiri leader Mehbooba Mufti, when he reiterated the need to move beyond CBMs and urged for action.[96] With so many problems accrued from the Musharraf regime, the new Pakistani government cannot afford to be seen negotiating with India without any movement on the core issue of Kashmir or gaining some concessions from India. Till then, the rhetoric on Kashmir could get louder and louder which, as the past experience indicates, could get out of hand at some point of time to precipitate into a crisis or in a worst case scenario lead to a war. Despite these complexities and dangers, the Pakistani English daily The Post acknowledges that “there is ... little temptation for Pakistan to make a grab for Kashmir, or for India to invade Pakistan, as the fear of nuclear attack makes adventurism less appealing.”[97] Hoping for a bright future, it prophecies that ‘If the Kashmir dispute is resolved, the people of India and Pakistan can live without trepidation and fear of war.’[98] --------------------------------- [1] The News, Pakistan, 24 March 2008 [2] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 25 March 2008 [3] Global Discourse on Kashmir 2006, published by Kashmir Centre EU, 2007, p.2 [4] Ibid. p.3 [5] Ibid. p.6 [6] Daily Times, Pakistan, 25 September 2005 [7] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 22 February 2008 [8] Hindu, India, 8 October 2007 [9] Daily Times, Pakistan, 19 December 2007 [10] Asian Age, India, 16 March 2008 [11] Pakistan announces Kashmir Day preparations, Associated Press of Pakistan, 25 January 2008; accessed 21 March 2008 [12] Ibid. [13] Daily Times, Pakistan, 28 January 2008 [14] The Nation, Pakistan, 7 February 2008 [15] Ibid. [16] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [17] Daily Times, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [18] Ibid. [19] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008. [20] Ibid. [21] The News, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [22] Ibid. [23] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [24] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 22 December 2007 [25] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 4 January 2008 [26] Ibid. [27] Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 11 February 2008 [28] Kashmir Watch, 26 November 2007; accessed 21 March 2008 [29] Ibid. [30] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 9 December 2007 [31] Report by Hamid Mir, Jang, Pakistan, 21 January 2008 [32] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 25 March 2008 [33] Ibid [34] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 25 March 2008 [35] The Indian Express, India, 27 March 2008 [36] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 25 March 2008 [37] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 19 February 2008 [38] Etela’at, Srinagar, 20 February 2008 [39] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 20 February 2008 [40] Kashmir Watch, 19 February 2008; accessed on 21 March 2008 [41] Etala’at, Srinagar, Srinagar, 20 February 2008 [42] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 22 February 2008 [43] News Agency of Kashmir, 21 February 2008; accessed on 26 March 2008 [44] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 20 February 2008 [45] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 21 February 2008 [46] Kashmir Watch, 19 February 2007; accessed on 25 March 2008 [47] Report by Hamid Mir, Jang, Pakistan, 21 January 2008 [48] Rising Kashmir, 3 March 2008 [49] The Hindu, India, 10 March 2008 [50] Rising Kashmir, 3 March 2008 [51] Ibid. [52] Ibid. [53] Kashmir Watch, 4 March 2008; accessed 25 March 2008 [54] Ibid. [55] Ibid. [56] Kashmir Times, 5 March 2008 [57] Kashmir Times, 4 March 2008 [58] Ibid. [59] Rising Kashmir, 5 March 2008 [60] Ibid. [61] The Hindu, India, 9 March 2008 [62] COAS on Kashmir, editorial, The Nation, 14 March 2008 [63] Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 9 March 2008 [64] The News, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [65] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [66] Election Special, Geo TV, Pakistan, 19 February 2008 [67] Pak Tribune, 24 February 2008; accessed on 25 March 2008 [68] The News, Pakistan, 25 March 2008 [69] Aaj Kamran Khan Saath, Geo TV, Pakistan, 25 March 2008 [70] Pak Tribune, 26 March 2008; accessed 26 March 2008 [71] Greater Kashmir, 28 March 2008 [72] American Impatience, editorial, The Dawn, 27 March 2008 [73] The News, Pakistan, 28 March 2008 [74] Pak Tribune, 13 March 2008; accessed 26 March 2008 [75] Kashmir Watch, 14 March 2008; accessed 25 March 2008 [76] Kayani’s Solidarity with Kashmir Cause, editorial, Pakistan Observer, 14 March 2008 [77] COAS on Kashmir, editorial, The Nation, Pakistan, 14 March 2008 [78] Ibid. [79] Kashmir Cause, editorial, The Post, Pakistan 14 March 2008 [80] General Kayani’s statement on Kashmir is welcome, editorial, Daily Times, Pakistan 14 March 2008 [81] The News, Pakistan, 24 March 2008 [82] Kashmir Watch, 19 December 2007; accessed 23 March 2008 [83] The Nation, Pakistan, 7 February 2008 [84] Times of India, 12 March 2006 [85] Ibid. [86] Kashmir Watch, 19 March 2008; accessed 22 March 2008 [87] Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 20 March 2008 [88] The Tribune, India, 21 March 2008 [89] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 16 March 2008 [90] Ibid. [91] The Nation, Pakistan 18 March 2008 [92] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 28 March 2008 [93] Ibid. [94] Pak Tribune, Pakistan, 21 March 2008 at accessed on 25 March 2008. [95] Fazlur Rehman’s deft political moves, editorial, Daily Times, Pakistan, 21 June 2004 [96] Jang, Pakistan, 29 March 2008; Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 29 March 2008 [97] Editorial, The Post, Pakistan, 14 March 2008 --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. 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Groups. . __,_._,___ From info at fondation-langlois.org Mon Mar 31 19:09:38 2008 From: info at fondation-langlois.org (La fondation Daniel Langlois) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:39:38 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Launch of new Daniel Langlois Foundation Web site Message-ID: <44d4573a015481915d5139127608880b@fdl-webmestre> Launch of new Daniel Langlois Foundation Web site We invite you to discover the new Web site of the Daniel Langlois Foundation. The new user interface has been designed to promote the discovery of the wealth of resources available on the site and in the Foundation's collections. Its search tool provides quick access to a wide variety of information on electronic arts and the Foundation's other key interests. By bringing forward links and associations between the various contents of the Web site, the new user environment encourages active exploration. This new incarnation of the Foundation's Web site is the first step towards our fully collaborative and participatory site, which will allow our partners and the public to contribute directly to specific sections. Pay a visit, linger a while and feel free to send us your comments and suggestions! http://www.fondation-langlois.org/html/e/index.php?Lstsrv=200803 Juliana Rosales residency at OBORO The Foundation is pleased to announce that Juliana Rosales (Uruguay) has been named the grant recipient of the Research and Experimentation Residency in Montreal for Professional Artists from Emerging Countries or Regions. This residency program is offered jointly by the Daniel Langlois Foundation and OBORO, a Montreal-based centre that promotes the production and presentation of contemporary and new media art. Juliana Rosales will arrive from Montevideo at the beginning of April to begin her residency, and will work at the OBORO MediaLab until the end of May. During her residency, she will develop a botanical installation of native plants in order to test their adaptation within an artificial environment. This yearlong structure, along with a plant monitoring system, will be located on the premises at OBORO: http://www.fondation-langlois.org/html/e/page.php?Lstsrv=200803&NumPage=2093 e-art International Symposium The Daniel Langlois Foundation is pleased to present the online version of the conferences held as part of its exhibition e-art: New Technologies and Contemporary Art, presented at the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts in the fall of 2007. These conferences, led by Jean Gagnon, Anne-Marie Duguet, Jim Campbell, David Rokeby, Lynn Hershman Leeson, Olivier Asselin, Cornelius Bork and Ernestine Daubner, are now accessible via the exhibition Web site. http://www.fondation-langlois.org/e-art/e/symposium.html?Lstsrv=200803 From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 31 02:36:47 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:06:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] Essay - Pakistan's Post Musharraf Policy by Murtaza Shibli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <306974.24213.qm@web27812.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> ‘Real Democracy’: Pakistan’s Post-Musharraf Kashmir Policy Murtaza Shibli Editor Kashmir Affairs, London [www.kashmiraffairs.org] ‘Era of real democracy has begun in the country.’[1] Pervez Musharraf Summary The recently concluded elections in Pakistan have led to the decline in the fortunes of the General-turned-President Pervez Musharraf. Although he is still hanging onto power thanks to open American support, his influence on the country’s political decision making has weakened significantly. Much before the new government headed by Prime Minister Makhdoom Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani took over; Musharraf’s much publicised Kashmir Policy was on the wane. There seems to be a consensus evolving among the leading politicians and the Army about the unsuitability of the current Kashmir policy that saw Pakistan retreating from its support for the UN Resolutions and right to self determination. Even Musharraf’s former political partners and colleagues from the Pakistan Muslim League (Q) have taken umbrage with the beleaguered President on the issue. Sensing the mood, the pro-Musharraf Kashmiri groups and activists have gone on defensive; shifting their allegiances in order to stay relevant in the new political milieu. Some of them have apologised for their support to Musharraf or criticized him for his ‘failed’ Kashmir policy. Although pro-Pakistan and anti-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders, including the Hurriyat Conference (G) leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, are jubilant over the developments, Kashmiris are watching with caution.Pakistani politicians like Asif Zardari, Mian Nawaz Sharif and others have issued some statements that smack of traditional rhetoric, while the new Army Chief General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani has also hinted at the policy shift. Despite all this, there isn’t much Pakistan can do with regards to Kashmir; given its current internal crisis and unprecedented American pressure. Pakistan cannot afford to cease the ‘peace process’, but it might gradually retreat to its traditional position; increase its diplomatic efforts and seek international mediation and offer limited but symbolic support for the Kashmiri resistance. The progress on the issue can only be achieved if India is willing to shift from its maximalist position and offer some concrete and sensible options for the solution of the problem. Otherwise, the thaw that was achieved during the last few years in India-Pakistan relations cannot be sustained for long and, as in the past, Kashmir could vitiate the atmosphere with dangerous consequences. Background In the aftermath of 9/11, when Pervez Musharraf announced a U-turn on his country’s Kashmir policy, he was met with resistance and open hostility both at home and in Kashmir. However, supported by the US and covert Indian blessing, he propped up ‘yes men’ by buying the loyalty of some Kashmiri leaders through his intelligence agencies. As a result, the Pakistani government recognised the Hurriyat Conference faction led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq while sidelining the most senior Kashmiri resistance leader Syed Ali Geelani, whose rival faction of the Hurriyat Conference was previously declared as the ‘true representative of Kashmiris’ by the Pakistani government. Directed by Pakistan, the Hurriyat Conference (M) started unconditional dialogue with the Indian government ‘within the ambit of the Indian Constitution’.[2] Around the same time in 2003, Pakistani intelligence agencies propped up Kashmir Centres in Belgium, London and Washington with the covert aim of promoting Musharraf and his ‘formulas’ on Kashmir. These Centres, in conjunction with the Hurriyat Conference (M) and other splinter groups formed the core group of Musharraf loyalists who promoted his ‘out-of-box’ thinking without any appreciation to its political merits or application. Thus began an unprecedented understanding between India and Pakistan - the bitter rivals who now directed the Kashmiri politicians for a mutual goal of burying the issue for all times to come. The Indian intelligence agencies allowed free flow of the Hurriyat Conference (M) leaders from Srinagar to Islamabad as well as mutual exchange of cultural groups, intellectuals following traditional conflict pacification exercises. The Kashmir Centres formed the main plank of Musharraf as they promoted him through annual ‘international conferences’ and other such events. Although these centres were never able to inculcate any good faith among Kashmiris and raised nothing but suspicion, they became important tools in the game. Apparently, their utility and function was presented in such an exaggerated form that in September 2006, General Musharraf broke all the protocol and attended the Third Global Discourse on Kashmir 2006 held by the Kashmir Centre, Brussels. Welcoming him to the Discourse held at the European Parliament, Executive Director of the Centre, Barrister Majid Tramboo called Musharraf’s participation as a demonstration of his “love and affection towards Kashmiri people”[3] and commended him “wholeheartedly... for ... [his] courage and wisdom to offer new and creative thoughts.”[4] In response Musharraf said that it was “indeed a pleasure, unique honour and a privilege to be in this gathering of the Global Discourse on Kashmir.”[5] In Azad Jammu and Kashmir, the Muslim Conference run by Sardar Abdul Qayoom Khan and his protégé son and the current Prime Minister Sardar Attique Ahmad Khan also allied with General Musharraf to perpetuate the family grip on power. The veteran Sardar Qayoom who credits himself for being Mujah-e-Awwal or first warrior for his claims to have fired the first bullet in rebellion against the autocratic rule of Maharaja Hari Singh in 1947, supported Musharraf’s Kashmir policy and declared the ‘end of Jihad’ in Kashmir claiming its futility. As a representative of the Musharraf government, Khan on Sunday, September 25, 2005 while speaking at a function in New Delhi declared: “Jihad was terrorism and the mujahideen were saboteurs of peace in the region.”[6] Azad Kashmir’s opposition alleged that it was due to this unfettered loyalty of Khan’s for Musharraf that the Pakistani intelligence rigged the 2006 elections in Azad Jammu and Kashmir and installed Sardar Attique Khan in power. In gratitude and to prove his pro-Musharraf credentials beyond doubt, Sardar Attique Khan on August 23, 2007 stated that “General Musharraf should remain the President of Pakistan as long as he was physically fit” adding “the role of military in the civilian affairs in Pakistan was unavoidable.”[7] These Kashmiri leaders, from the Hurriyat Conference (M), Muslim Conference led by Sardar Qayoom and the Executive Directors of the Kashmir Centres in the West, continued their train of sycophancy till late last year, not only misleading the President about the utility and acceptance of his policies vis-a-vis Kashmir but also for their own financial gain, as they were allegedly being paid hefty sums of money to run these centres. Even when his re-election as President was widely criticised in Pakistan, the activists of Hurriyat Conference (M) took out a procession in Srinagar and burst crackers to celebrate the victory of General Pervez Musharraf.[8] This symbiotic relationship went beyond political posturing when the Hurriyat Conference (M) openly supported the imposition of Emergency in Pakistan. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq was the first Kashmiri to lend his support to Musharraf, while the senior leader Professor Abdul Ghani Bhat criticised the deposed judges claiming “there has to be harmony among the three pillars of the state - the executive, the legislature and the judiciary.”[9] Similar sentiments were expressed by a Western based Kashmiri leader when I asked him to comment on the crisis in November 2007 adding that the General Musharraf is the people of Pakistan. Commenting on the relationship of the Hurriyat Conference with General Musharraf, noted Indian columnist and former diplomat Kuldip Nayyar in one of his recent opinion pieces observed that the “Hurriyat [Mirwaiz group] ended up putting all its eggs in Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf’s basket.”[10] Kashmir Solidarity Day - Back to Basics Following massive public outpouring and international criticism against his emergency rule, Musharraf was forced to give up the post of his Army Chief in November 2007. This effectively limited his ability to manoeuvre, interfere or exert pressure on political matters. As soon as General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani took over as Chief of Army Staff, voices against Musharraf’s Kashmir policy grew stronger and turned into an outpouring. As Musharraf’s fortunes started dwindling and his options ran out amidst growing public protest, he tried the age-old gambit that every Pakistani leader had tried successfully - Kashmir. On January 25 his government announced that it was preparing to observe ‘Kashmir Solidarity Day’ on February 5, a yearly celebration that had been virtually thrown into oblivion in the past few years, with ‘renewed commitment’. Musharraf’s Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Muhammad Ali Durrani said “Kashmir Solidarity Day would be observed with zeal and fervour and the entire Pakistani nation would stand shoulder-to-shoulder by their Kashmiri brethren”, adding that it “renews our commitment to the resolution of the long-standing dispute.” He could not hide his government’s intention of using the event as a public relations exercise for the beleaguered President when he claimed “the vision of President Pervez Musharraf on Kashmir dispute is very clear i.e. the resolution of Kashmir issue should be in line with the aspirations and wishes of the Kashmiri people.”[11] Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs, Tahir Iqbal expressed similar thoughts; “Kashmir Solidarity Day would be observed this year with renewed zest as the need for worldwide projection of Kashmir dispute has become imperative.” He too lavished praise on Musharraf claiming he had “adopted an optimistic approach towards the issue and .. succeeded in getting Kashmir issue globally recognized.” “On Solidarity Day”, he said, “Pakistan, through its planned events... would reassure its moral, diplomatic and political support to our Kashmiri brethren.”[12] The immediate reaction to the official plans came from the Jama’at-e-Islami Pakistan when its Secretary General denounced the Interior Ministry saying it was ‘making a mockery of the Kashmir struggle’.[13] On February 5, Kashmir Solidarity Day was celebrated throughout Pakistan reminiscing the early 1990s - euphoric political rallies and ‘Jihad conferences’. Kashmir Solidarity was a public holiday and all the government, semi government offices, educational institutions, commercial centres and markets remained closed. Newspapers brought special supplements while Radio and TV channels aired special programmes and talks. In his ‘Kashmir Day’ message Pervez Musharraf tried to rattle the emotions of his nation as he thundered, “We (Pakistanis) cannot be kept away from the Kashmiris by the Ceasefire Line for much longer.”[14] The leading Pakistani daily The Nation in its editorial termed this statement as a “hidden announcement of pugnacity” while accusing Musharraf of being “architect of the policy of supine acceptance of equating the Kashmiris’ just freedom struggle with terrorism.”[15] Pakistan Muslim League-Q (PML-Q) which shared power with Musharraf also held a seminar in Lahore where the speakers “expressed a common view that Kashmir would be liberated only through force” adding that “their party was upholding and continuing the struggle for Kashmir liberation right according to the idea perceived by Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah.” They reiterated that after the failure of peaceful dialogue with India “now the solution needs settlement by using force.”[16] Mushahid Hussain Syed, Secretary General of the PML-Q pledged to make a “national Kashmir strategy with all political parties on board if his party came into power.” Speaking at a seminar on Kashmir Day, Syed called for a review of his own government’s Kashmir policy adding “we honestly believe that the United Nations Resolution[s] on Kashmir is a roadmap for solving the issue.”[17] Similar functions were held in Sindh and at its capital Karachi, the stronghold of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) that was part of the previous pro-Musharraf government. “A number of organizations took out rallies and held seminars to show their solidarity with the people of Kashmir and vowed to extend full support to them to help ensure their right of franchise.”[18] This exhibit of official sentiment for Kashmir was drowned under the mass of unofficial functions of the opposition that condemned Musharraf’s Kashmir policy amid renewing calls of support for their ‘Kashmiri brethren’. In Lahore, a number of Pakistani and Kashmiri political and social organisations arranged rallies, seminars and symposia. Among these were PML-N, Jama’at-e-Islami, Khaksar Tehrik, Jamiat Mashaikh, Peoples Muslim League J&K, Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front, Kashmir Action Committee and extremist organisation Jamat-ud-Dawah etc. The strongest message emanated from the Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz (PML-N) headed by the former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharief whose party PML-N emerged as the second biggest party in the recent elections. President of the party, Mian Shahbaz Sharif accused the Musharraf government of making a U-turn on Kashmir calling it treachery and “vowed that after coming into power, PML-N would liberate the Kashmiris from the cruel clutches of India and restore the dignity of Army.”[19] Another leader of the party, Dr. Azim-ud-Din Zahid blamed the government that it had “provided an opportunity to India to affix barbed wire along the Line of Control after taking U-turn on Kashmir issue.”[20] The Islamist party, Jama’at-e-Islami Pakistan that boycotted the recent election also held various public functions. In one of its largest public functions in Lahore, one of its senior leaders and former senator Liaquat Baloch said that Kashmir issue can only be resolved through the UN Resolutions, claiming that “solutions proposed by Musharraf are aimed at allowing India to strengthen its grip over the state.” Secretary-General of the party, Syed Munawwar Hasan said “Musharraf lacked the legitimacy and mandate to rule the country ... [and as such he] did not have any moral authority or influence to alter the Pakistan’s principled policy and stance over Kashmir.” Head of the party in Karachi, Muhammad Hussain Mahanti said “the success of the Kashmir Day solidarity rally had once again proved that the people were ready to take to streets to support the cause of Kashmiris in their fight for freedom from oppression and pressurise the rulers not to change the Pakistan’s decades-old and time-tested stance over Kashmir.”[21] General Musharraf could not even escape criticism from his own ilk. A group of former Generals - Mirza Aslam Baig; former Army Chief, Faiz Ali Chishti, Hameed Gul; former head of ISI, Jamshaid Gulzar Kiyani, Asad Durrani, Sardar Anwar Khan; former President of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Abdul Qayyum and Ali Quli Khan; former Army Chief - gathered at a seminar in Rawalpindi, the military nerve centre. They criticised Musharraf for his ‘faulty policies on Kashmir’ claiming he ‘had moved the Kashmir issue to the backburner’. Former General Abdul Qayyum claimed “Kashmir could only be liberated by waging Jihad” while the former ISI chief General Hameed Gul said “Srinagar is just as important as Islamabad for Pakistanis,”[22] adding “we have relationship with Kashmiris on the basis of life and death.”[23] Winds of Change As the situation unfolded, the pro-Musharraf Kashmiris slowly started shifting their postures. In December 2007, the Hurriyat Conference (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq not only admitted that talks with India had been un-productive but also blamed New Delhi of engaging Kashmiri leadership “in talks not for the solution of Kashmir ... but for stop gap arrangements.”[24] Ultimately, the Mirwaiz led Hurriyat Conference pulled out of talks with the Indian government less than three weeks before the 18 February elections in Pakistan. Speaking to reporters in Srinagar, Mirwaiz said that his group was pulling out of the four-year old dialogue process as it did not yield anything.[25] Admitting the unpopularity of dialogue with New Delhi, senior Hurriyat leader Nayeem Ahmad Khan said “the dialogue process had affected their credibility among the Kashmiri people.”[26] Frustrated and dejected, many pro-Musharraf Kashmiri loyalists were boosting their sagging morale with spurious forecasts they were receiving from their pro-Musharraf contacts in Pakistan. Only a couple of months before the elections, one of the senior Kashmiri ‘leaders’ warned me about the futility of my writings against Musharraf’s imposition of Emergency, prophesying that Musharraf’s supported party PML-Q was definitely winning the elections and that the new Prime Minister would be Mushahid Hussain Syed. Similar information was perhaps passed to a noted Srinagar based columnist, Zahid Ghulam Muhammad, who attended the Kashmir Centre, London sponsored, 3rd International Kashmir Peace Conference on 28th and 29th of November in London. A week prior to the elections, he predicted in his weekly column, Punchline in Srinagar based daily Greater Kashmir: “In the given scenario there seems better chance for the Muslim League (Q) and other allied parties for coming to power in Pakistan.” He went further to complete the puzzle; “If the ability to understand the nuances of the domestic politics and to gauge the pulse of international politics are the criteria for the new Prime Minister then there is every likelihood of Pakistan Muslim League (Q) Mushaid Hussain Syed becoming the next Prime Minister of Pakistan.”[27] ‘Naya Kashmir’ After fiddling with many ‘out-of-box’ ideas and ‘formulas’, Pervez Musharraf’s government was to implement a new and fast action plan for Kashmir - pro-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders will participate in the elections and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq will take over as Chief Minister, a la Showkat Aziz or Hamid Karzai and his faction of the Hurriyat Conference will call for the resistance militants to disarm with similar calls from Azad Kashmir Government and other pro-Musharraf Kashmiri activists, effectively ending the resistance movement repeating Sheikh Abdullah’s disbanding of Mahaz-e-Rai Shumari or Plebiscite Front in 1974 after he was given the position of Chief Minister-ship without even contesting elections. Although the background preparatory work had been in full swing for more than last two years, some public functions were planned for favourable symbolic value that could soften the public opinion and thus lessen any public outrage or reaction. This also included a comprehensive ‘media plan’ – buying out the journalists and newspapers in order to stop negative media coverage. One such alleged public function was the 3rd International Kashmir Peace Conference held at London on 28-29 November 2007 where the Hurriyat Conference (M) Chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and pro-India National Conference President Omar Abdullah were invited among other Kashmiri leaders. Allegedly, the two leaders were to address a joint press conference calling for peaceful solution of the Kashmir problem and launch a joint communiqué to work together for the peace and resolution of Kashmir. Had this followed according to the plan, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Omar Abdullah might have joined forces and launched a joint election campaign by now. However, the conference received unprecedented opposition for its organiser Professor Nazir Ahmad Shawl could not handle the operation and raised suspicions. This created public concerns amid condemnations and a rival conference in the British Parliament. There was a general feeling that the Conference was offering a platform to Omar Abdullah and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq for their future electoral alliance.[28] A leader of the UK based All Party Kashmir Coordination Committee while opposing the conference claimed that it “was a joint game plan of both the countries and aims to create harmony between pro-India and pro-Pakistan groups for the sake of coming elections in the Indian side of Kashmir.”[29] Due to massive public outcry, the conference aims could not be achieved and the planned joint communiqué was abandoned. In addition, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq had to publicly deny any pre-election equation with Omar Abdullah. This failure was so upsetting that only a week later when Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Inamul Haq visited New Delhi, he did not meet any Kashmiri leaders, a departure from Pakistan’s practice “perhaps for the first time in the last two decades.”[30] During his three day stay in New Delhi, Haq did not invite any Kashmiri leaders for any formal or informal interaction perhaps to avoid questions from Hurriyat Conference (G) which had planned a strong protest with the visiting dignitary about Pakistan’s ‘shameful’ role. The Kashmir Peace Conference created such an embarrassment for the Musharraf regime that any public communiqués or interactions between pro-Musharraf Hurriyat leaders and pro-India Kashmiri politicians were suspended, at least in public. However, the Musharraf regime continued to work with its Indian counterparts to further the plan. According to a news report by a leading Pakistani journalist, Hamid Mir, only days before 18 February 2008 elections, Musharraf’s advisor Tariq Aziz, Srinagar based Hurriyat leaders and Indian officials met in Dubai to discuss the Naya Kashmir Plan exploring various options on Kashmir after the elections.[31] According to informed sources, the meeting was attended by many Hurriyat leaders including Mirwaiz Umar Farooq along with Indian and Pakistani diplomats and intelligence officials. But the Pakistan election results left these plans in tatters with the pro-Musharraf Kashmiri leaders searching for a new cause and identity. New Army chief, New Thinking Pervez Musharraf sealed his fate the day he handed over the reins of powerful Army to his new Chief General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani. Soon after his takeover, Kayani set out his priority to repair the image of his Army. He gradually distanced the Army and the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) from political activities; thus tilting the balance against Musharraf loyalists. This was precisely due to the new Army Chief that the elections could not be rigged as Musharraf had done in 2002. In order to restore confidence among the public, General Kayani, earlier this year issued directives barring army personnel from holding civilian offices.[32] He showed determination to curtail any public perception of the Army’s involvement in politics and sent a ‘note of displeasure’ to the Corps Commander Lt. General Shafaatullah Shah for holding an unauthorised meeting with the caretaker Prime Minister Muhammadmian Soomro.[33] Lt. General Shah was one of the most favourite Corps Commanders of President General Musharraf.[34] On 25th March, only a few hours after the New Prime Minister took over, General Kayani announced a major reshuffle in the army appointing new corps commanders at Mangla and Lahore, “triggering off speculation that Musharraf’s authority is being undermined.”[35] He also removed President Musharraf’s favourite Corps Commander Lt. General Shafaatullah Shah.[36] The News in its editorial: A clear message, (26 March 2008), called it a major reshuffle and commented “it is now obvious that the support structure in the administration which President Pervez Musharraf was ordering around has collapsed and the centre of power has shifted.” Elections and Beyond On the election date on 18 February 2008, acting chairman of the Hurriyat Conference (G), Ghulam Nabi Sumji predicted that the polls in Pakistan would end the rule of President Musharraf who, according to him, is responsible for the mess in Pakistan as well as in Kashmir.[37] The election defeat of Musharraf loyalists was widely hailed both in Pakistan and Kashmir. The Kashmiri leaders opposed to Musharraf’s policies welcomed the result with Syed Ali Shah Geelani leading the group. In his first reaction, Geelani called it a good sign for the future of Pakistan and for the ‘Kashmiri freedom movement’ accusing Musharraf that “with the support of his handpicked stooges they compromised ... on the Kashmir issue.” He also accused that Musharraf “yielded much ground to India on the Kashmir issue despite enormous sacrifices rendered both by Pakistan and people of Kashmir during the past 60 years.”[38] Terming the election results as defeat of Musharraf and rejection of his ‘apologetic Kashmir policy’, he also hoped that the new government will “stick to... traditional stand on Kashmir.”[39] Asiya Andrabi, leader of the woman’s organisation, Dukhtaran-e-Millat, expressed similar sentiments saying “anybody who comes to power will be better than Musharraf”, who according to her “betrayed ideology [of]... Pakistan ... and ... the Kashmir cause.”[40] The immediate reaction of the pro-Musharraf Hurrriyat Conference was that of frustration and desperation. Senior leader of the group, Shabir Shah hoped that “whosoever comes to power... will support our cause in future” while apologetically admitting that his group had made mistakes in the past like “celebrating Pervez Musharraf’s re-election as the President when the Hurriyat activists burst crackers in Srinagar.”[41] A splinter group of JKLF led by Barrister Majid Tramboo came out with the strongest statement against General Musharraf, saying that “the people of Pakistan have rejected the negative approach of their President Gen Pervez Musharraf regarding the solution of Kashmir issue”. A senior leader of the party, Farooq Ahmad Dar, termed the election results as “clear answer to the four point formula of Musharraf.”[42] It is worth mentioning that not long ago, in September 2007 (24-25) Barrister Tramboo’s Kashmir Centre sponsored a two day Geneva Convention on Kashmir that supported Musharraf’s Four Point Formula. Not strange, the first theme of the Convention discussed on 24th September was titled: The challenging times – a review of President Musharraf’s four point formula, wherein the speakers commended General Musharraf for his ‘vision and leadership’. The election results have created a mood of indignation in India about a possible policy change with a growing feeling in New Delhi that it may not now be possible to settle Kashmir on the Indian terms as accepted and agreed by General Musharraf. The pro-India National Conference leader Omar Abdullah, who had met with General Musharraf in Pakistan in 2006, said that India has missed the ‘golden opportunity’ to settle Kashmir while Musharraf was in power.[43] Many Kashmiri analysts have made similar observations. New Delhi based Kashmiri journalist Iftikhar Gilani was of the opinion that the poll results will impact the situation in Kashmir.[44] Athar Parvaiz, a Kashmir Times writer opined that Pakistan’s Kashmir policy was bound to undergo a lot of transformation adding that Pakistan might not give accordance to pro-India Kashmiri leaders and may go into “old time revulsion towards them thanks to the return of a truly popular government”. The author was of the view that, “whatever the new dispensation in Pakistan, Pakistan's policy about Kashmir issue is bound to witness a transformation”, observing that “defeats suffered by most of the ministers in the former Musharraf-led government, can be traced, among other reasons, to Pakistan's renewed policy about Kashmir in recent years.”[45] Sensing change, senior pro-India politician and leader of National Conference Ali Mohammad Sagar said “New Government in Pakistan can have a different Kashmir policy and for [the] time being it seems that the dialogue process between India and Pakistan would get delayed.”[46] Asif Ali Zardari: Boomerang Effect While the negotiations for the new government were full on, Asif Ali Zardari was being courted by the American diplomats on daily basis trying to influence him to stay away from Nawaz Sharif and accept a deal with Musharraf on the basis of a working relationship.[47] The Americans also reportedly wanted his assurances on the India-Pakistan ‘peace process’ and that the future government will continue with Musharraf’s Kashmir policy. Under intense US pressure, Asif Asif Ali Zardari, in a television interview made a statement calling for freezing the Kashmir issue for future generations in order to continue trade and dialogue with India. Zardari, while speaking to a leading Indian journalist Karan Thapar on CNN-IBN’s Devil's Advocate programme, said that “Kashmir issue should be left aside for future generations to solve and right now India and Pakistan should focus on improving the bilateral relations by strengthening trade and economic ties.”[48] He also opined that “normalisation of relations between the two countries should not become hostage to the Kashmir issue.”[49] The reaction that followed was unprecedented and gave a strong indication of pent up anger that Musharraf’s Kashmir policy had created. Zardari’s statement led to strong condemnation from all the Kashmiri groups – pro-freedom, pro-India and resistance militant groups alike. Even those who were die-hard supporters of Musharraf only days ago lent their support to the growing condemnation indicating that they can’t remain oblivious to the new political realities. The United Jihad Council (UJC), conglomerate of 13 militant outfits termed Zardari’s statement as “political immaturity’ accusing him of being ‘unaware about the history and ignorant about the Kashmir issue.”[50] Giving an indication about the change in Pakistan’s policy, Muzzaffarabad based spokesman of the UJC, Syed Sadaqat Hussain said that Zardari “does not know anything about his country’s policies.”[51] The chairman of the Hurriyat conference (G) Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that Zaradari’s statement will have no affect on the disputed nature of Kashmir. “He can talk whatever he wants, who cares,” Geelani told Rising Kashmir.[52] Pro-Musharraf Hurriyat leader Shabir Ahmad Shah termed the statement irrelevant while Abbas Ansari said “till Kashmir issue is solved, the distances [between India and Pakistan] would not vanish.” Later the Hurriyat Conference (M) called its Executive Council meeting which expressed deep concerns over Zardari’s statement and said that Zardari’s statement “was not in line with the Pakistan Peoples Party's Kashmir policy.”[53] Pro-Musharraf JKLF led by Majid Tramboo strongly condemned Zardari’s unrealistic statement. Commenting on Zardari’s statement, the spokesman of the group said that it “gives an indication about his political bankruptcy. We have not given him any mandate on Kashmir issue [so] he should mind his own business.”[54] Zardari even drew flak from the pro-India politicians. Chairman of the Peoples’ Conference Sajad Gani Lone called it an “idealistic statement”, urging “the people to protest.”[55] Leader of the opposition in the pro-India Kashmiri Assembly and the National Conference senior functionary, Abdul Rahim Rather told Kashmir Times that his party was “pretty upset”. Elaborating, he said, “how else can we react to such a statement when our people are getting killed because of the non-resolution of the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan?”[56] Omar Abdullah, President of National Conference “warned that freezing Kashmir without finding a solution would prove dangerous not only for India but for Pakistan as well.”[57] Another prominent pro-India politician and chairperson of the People’s Democratic Party (PDP), Mehbooba Mufti questioned the need for issuing such statements saying that the resolution of Kashmir needs to be carried forward rather than putting in cold storage.[58] Sardar Qayoom Khan, the octogenarian Azad Kashmiri politician and former Prime Minister, who is known for making U-turns also lashed out at Zardari. Khan who had joined Musharraf’s Kashmir policy ditching his old avatar of Mujahid-e-Awwal had previously condemned Kashmiri militants and declared ‘end of Jihad’ in Kashmir, calling it a futile exercise. Under the new political order, Sardar Qayoom took strong exception to Zardari’s statement warning that “friendly relations between India and Pakistan would always be short-lived and unpredictable until the root cause of all problems – Kashmir issue was resolved.”[59] Qayoom went further and justified the need for militant resistance saying: “militancy... should remain ... a force to reckon with for forcing India to agree on a negotiated settlement of the issue.”[60] Asif Zardari couldn’t resist the barrage of criticism and had to ‘clarify’ his position. Retracting from his old statement, he described Kashmir “as an integral part of Pakistan and said that he would never betray the sacrifices of those who had given their lives for Kashmir.” He called Kashmir issue as the reason for the founding of the PPP by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto; “I started my political mission from Shaheed Benazir Bhutto’s grave at Garhi Khuda Bhuksh. If I have to keep her trust, how can I betray the trust of 90,000 other martyrs who have lost their lives in Kashmir?”[61] Zardari made subsequent clarifications to assuage the tempers. He revealed that his father Hakim Ali Zardari fought as a volunteer in the 1948 war to liberate Kashmir and was proud of that.[62] The public pressure that forced powerful Zardari to issue ‘clarification’ indicates that Kashmir policy is certainly shifting from Musharraf’s so-called pro-India policy directed by the US. The Executive Director of Kashmir Centre Washington, Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai ‘expressed satisfaction over the statement saying “the clarification by the PPP ... has been viewed as reassuring by the general public in Pakistan as well as in Kashmir.” Dr. Fai, who is well known for his caution and conformism, was surprisingly firm and advised Pakistani leaders “in responsible positions ... to exercise discretion when issuing statements that may undermine Kashmiri aspiration.” In his press statement he called upon the leaders for “a more nuanced approach to such a sensitive and emotive issue as freedom struggle of the people of Kashmir [which] will help lessen the public’s distrust of politicians” and demanded that the Kashmir conflict must be resolved prognosticating that any “attempts at conflict management will never succeed.”[63] The American ‘meddling’ The proverbial trio of Pakistan’s politics – Allah, Army and America seems to have been reconfigured in reverse order with the Americans enjoying on the top. The US influence is so powerful that they virtually seem to be running every aspect of Pakistani life as allowed by Musharraf in his last eight years of rule. They are said to have unacknowledged military basis, secret prisons and torture centres with powers to detain Pakistani citizens and thousands of secret agents running around in the country without any legal or bureaucratic fetters. This is the main reason that the Americans are against the reinstatement of Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhary who was adamant in upholding the law and wanted to know the fate of thousands that have gone missing in Musharraf’s regime with many of them ending up in secret American prisons and torture cells. The majority of the Pakistanis see the US and its War on Terror the main reason for problems in the tribal areas and resultant suicide bombings. Speaking at a Kashmir rally on 5 February in Lahore, Jama’at-e-Islami leader Liaqat Baloch “castigated President Musharraf for acting as a tool in the hands of Washington to make Pakistan a failed state as per US agenda.”[64] Many also blame US pressure for Musharraf’s U-turn on Kashmir. Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz leader, Dr Azim ud Din Zahid while speaking at a meeting to commemorate Kashmir Solidarity Day said “on the direction of the US administration, moral and financial help to Kashmiris was stopped”.[65] The American support for Musharraf - from sacking of the judges to the imposition of Emergency and tacit approval for his crackdown on the secular civil society has given rise to massive anger against the US. Such sentiments are no more confined to the Islamist fringe groups. As the first election results were out, former Army Chief General Mirza Aslam Beg called it a decision against America in his comment on Pakistani television channel Geo TV, saying that the next Prime Minister will be elected by the people of Pakistan and not by the US.[66] Buoyed by the election results, when the calls for Musharraf’s resignation grew louder, the US Secretary of the State Condoleezza Rice openly came to the rescue of General Musharraf; “The President of Pakistan is Pervez Musharraf ... And so, of course, we will deal with him. We will continue to pursue the American interests, which are for a stable and democratic Pakistan.”[67] Since the elections, the American influence in Pakistan has become more pronounced, open and corrosive. Soon after the results, it was a strange scene to see the American diplomats literally taking charge for the formation of the new government as well as trying to block potential political alliances. The American Ambassador in Islamabad, Anne W Patterson openly held meetings with the Pakistani politicians suggesting future role for Musharraf. On 25 March, the day the new Prime Minister Makhdoom Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani was sworn in, the American presence in Islamabad was felt very strongly and raised a lot of suspicion that they are trying to hijack the democratic government. When the Pakistani politicians were busy in forming the new government, the US Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte along with Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia Richard Boucher held meetings with Pervez Musharraf, Chief of the Army Staff and top politicians of the new coalition government including Prime Minister Gilani, Asif Zardari and Nawaz Sharif.[68] Former Pakistani Foreign Secretary Riaz Khokhar called it ‘crude diplomacy’. In his comments with the leading Pakistani anchor Kamran Khan in Aaj Kamran Khan Ke Sath he accused the Americans of arm twisting. In the same programme, Pakistani analyst Shafqat Mehmood commented that Americans are showing the power and influence they have got in Pakistan. Frustrated by this brazen behaviour, Kamran Khan threw a general question at the Pakistani audience; “Where is our honour and dignity?”[69] Former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif could not tolerate the US pressure on the Musharraf issue and he told the US delegation that he “considered Musharraf an unconstitutional and illegal head of state.” Sharif later told a press conference that the “new government would review Pakistan’s role in the War on Terror after holding a debate in the parliament and that Pakistan will not play in the US hands.”[70] The timing of this visit by the US envoys caused outrage with the newspapers decrying the visit as ‘American meddling’. “Protestors in at least three cities burned the US flags and waved banners demanding the envoys to go home.”[71] Leading English daily The Dawn titled its editorial about the visit as American Impatience terming the arrival of the US envoys “in indecent haste”, not “in keeping with diplomatic propriety” and calling its objective as “undesirable”.[72] Another leading newspaper, The News urged the US officials to “restrain themselves in further meddling in Pakistan’s affairs.”[73] Given the US influence, its strong presence in the region and its closest ties with India, the new government would be severely restricted and limited in any approach that tries to deal with the Kashmir issue differently from the previous government, knowing the fact that the US is committed to pursue Pakistan to abandon Kashmir in totality. ‘National Consensus’ - The Balancing Act As the anti-Musharraf political forces moved to centre stage, the Army Chief, who was considered a Musharraf ally also started to make more pronounced statements indicating a move from his predecessor’s policies. Therefore, when General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani made open references to ‘National Consensus’ on Kashmir, it was seen as an indication of a possible shift. During his visit to a forward location near the Line of Control (LoC) in Azad Kashmir on 12 February, General Kayani while addressing Army officers highlighted the ‘national consensus’ that exists on Kashmir and “reaffirmed commitment of Pakistan Army to the Kashmir cause, in line with aspirations of Pakistani nation.”[74] Kayani’s statement was widely hailed in Pakistan as well in Kashmir. Hurriyat Conference (G) Convenor “warmly welcomed the statement”[75] and many Pakistani newspapers praised it in their editorials. The English daily Pakistan Observer in its editorial Kayani’s Solidarity with Kashmir Cause dated 14 February called his statement as reassuring “in the perspective of some statements in the recent past by certain political quarters which were disapproved by the people of Pakistan.” Observing that “the people of Pakistan and the armed forces during the last sixty years [have] had a strong commitment to the Kashmir cause”, it called the assurance by the COAS [Chief of the Army Staff] as “satisfying for the people of Pakistan as well as to the Kashmiris”, and hoped that “the new political leadership would keep the resolution of Kashmir issue as the top priority on its agenda while dealing on different issues with India.”[76] Leading English daily The Nation in its editorial called the statement as heartening and “an index of the affinity all the jawans [soldiers] of our armed forces feel for the Kashmir cause.” The paper affirmed Kayani’s statement that there is a national consensus on the issue adding “all genuine political forces with mass appeal agree on the right of the people of Kashmir to choose their own destinies.”[77] Criticizing Musharraf regime’s initiative of peace process, the newspaper observed; “All the miscalculated and overly conciliatory efforts of the regime have been met by Indian smugness and aggression every step of the way” and “sincerely hoped that these leaders can counter some of the damage done on this front by the previous leadership.”[78] Another English daily The Post sought to link the Army Chief’s statement with the earlier statement of Asif Ali Zardari on Kashmir saying “General Kayani wished to set the record straight by reaffirming the army’s commitment to the Kashmir cause.”[79] The utility of General Kayani’s statement can be seen at multiple levels. There is a strong argument that because of the War on Terror and U-turn on Kashmir, the Army is unpopular and therefore it wants to get back into the good books of the people by latching on to Kashmir. Asserting the traditional stand on Kashmir, the Army could certainly help amend some of its tarnished image. There have been many public calls to the new Army Chief from various political and social quarters about many issues including Kashmir and the War on Terror. While General Kayani cannot afford to make a statement over the War on Terror, Kashmir remains the only plausible choice. This would certainly soften the image of army among the local people including Islamic fundamentalists who could thus be persuaded not to attack their own army. His statement could also be seen as a subtle rebuff to the US and an attempt to curtail their unwarranted and crude influence in the Pakistani affairs mainly Kashmir. By highlighting ‘consensus’, Kayani sought to place Kashmir in the centre of his nation’s conscience that cannot be bartered away under any outside pressure. Another function of Kayani’s statement could be to re-assert the Army’s traditional role and authority on the matters of defence as well as Kashmir while the civilian government with a strong mandate has taken over. Previously, the Army has viewed any bonhomie of its politicians with India with suspicion. “Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto was pilloried for being “pro-India” when she attempted to reach an understanding with her counterpart [Indian Prime Minister] Rajiv Gandhi in 1989. Her party was accused of being a “security risk” by the state’s intelligence agencies.” Similarly when “Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif ... tried to reach out to his Indian counterpart Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee in 1999 ... the [Pakistan Army] ...was busy executing its disastrous Kargil Operation in Kashmir.”[80] General Pervez Kayani sent another subtle but strong message about his priorities and persuasions. On Pakistan Day, 23 March, he hosted a reception in honour of the retired Army officers who attended in a large number. Many of these retired officers have publicly criticised Musharraf’s Kashmir policy and called for his resignation. Speaking at the occasion, the Army Chief reiterated that the “Army will always live up to the expectations of the nation”,[81] clearly giving a message of defiance against Musharraf while at the same time seeking reconciliation with his nation. Kashmiri Response Pakistan has always been an important factor in the survival and existence of the Kashmiri political struggle. Whether rightly or wrongly, Pakistan has fired the imagination of Kashmiri people and despite the lack of uniformity in its approach, Pakistan remains a major emotional force for Kashmiris that is deeply embedded in their psyche. Commenting upon the recent elections and its effect on Kashmir, pro-India politician Mehbooba Mufti acknowledged the role and function of the symbol of Pakistan in the Kashmir’s socio-political landscape; “We have a sentimental and geographical affinity with Pakistan.”[82] However, this ‘sentimental’ relationship touched nadir during General Musharraf’s rule. In the aftermath of 9/11, he not only gave up support for the Kashmiris’ freedom and self-determination, but also branded Kashmiri resistance as terrorists.[83] The change meant that the Kashmiri ‘freedom fighters’ in Pakistan and Azad Kashmir were hounded, tortured, arrested and even killed. In March 2006, the ISI arrested and threatened Syed Salahudin, the chief of Hizbul Mujahideen along with many other prominent Kashmiri resistance leaders who were protesting against Musharraf’s Kashmir policy.[84] In mid 2006 when I visited the Indian side of Kashmir, there was a strong feeling that Pakistan was sharing information about the Kashmiri militants with their Indian counterparts and thus helping the Indian Army to liquidate the last vestiges of Kashmiri resistance. Such negative views have persisted in the recent and popular Kashmiri imagination leading to serious trust deficit. Therefore, even if the new Pakistani government and the Army will seek to change that perception, it would find it harder to gain broad reception among the Kashmiris. Under the best circumstances, the die-hard pro-Pakistanis like Syed Ali Geelani may fall in line, but the majority of Kashmiris will wait and watch cautiously, till Pakistan makes some strong and tangible moves that could be seen or interpreted as credible. Resistance Militants - New Hopes? There is a definite optimistic feeling in the militant resistant camp led by Hizbul Mujahideen, the most powerful group fighting the Indian Army. Syed Salah-ud-din, the Supreme Commander of the group, who was forced to keep a low profile during Musharraf years and even arrested in March 2006[85] looked jubilant and confident. Less than a week after General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani stated that there was ‘national consensus’ on Kashmir, Hizb chief and head of the United Jihad Council revealed that Pakistan’s support to the Kashmiri resistance was on ‘as of now’. In an interview with the Indian television channel Times Now, he confirmed that Pakistan is supporting resistance groups and that it cannot stop backing his outfit. Salah-ud-din also dared India saying that “till every inch of ...Kashmir is not freed from India’s control, we will not stop.”[86] On 20 March, only a day after Salah-ud-din made open and candid admission, his organisation Hizbul Mujahiden detonated a massive blast rocking the high security city centre in Srinagar near Jehangir Chowk, one of the highly guarded places in the city with major government offices like Civil Secretariat, Legislative Assembly Complex, the High Court complex, Old Secretariat, headquarters of Crime Branch of police, and a CRPF camp all in an area of few hundred square metres from the site of the blast.[87] According to the police, the blast was to show that militants have the ‘capability to strike in the heart of city’ and they wanted to do something spectacular.[88] Although the blast failed in its intended mission and only ripped through a portion of a fly over wounding about 20 civilians, it gave an indication about the future trajectory of events. New Hopes, New Limitations There is no doubt that the new Pakistani government is a broad-based political coalition that cannot ignore the aspirations of its people on sensitive issue like Kashmir or War on Terror. But despite the rising rhetoric on Kashmir and the Army’s indication to follow the ‘aspirations of nation’, there is not much the new Pakistani government can do apart from keep the issue on backburner, as previously suggested by Asif Ali Zardari. The current international and regional geo-political configurations do not afford Pakistan to suspend the ‘peace process’, however, it would certainly seek to change the complexion of the engagement and try to elicit more and useful response from India. As an alternative, Pakistan can effectively slow down the ‘peace process’ leading to its gradual demise while at the same time giving boost to its diplomatic efforts to internationalise the issue. The indications are that the power structure in Pakistan will settle down in traditional way where the Kashmir was dealt by the Army and its intelligence agency ISI at the operational level in tandem with the sentiments while the politicians will raise it at local, regional and international level and affirm their ‘moral, political and diplomatic support’. The recent diplomatic blitzkrieg during the 11th Summit of the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) held at Dakar, Senegal (14-15 March 2008) also exhibited renewed vigour in the Pakistani establishment to place Kashmir firmly on the international scene. According to reports, the Kashmiri and Pakistani delegation held several high powered meetings to boost the issue. Speaking at a meeting of the OIC Contact Group on Jammu and Kashmir, the OIC Secretary-General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu said “The question of Jammu and Kashmir has been one of the oldest unresolved issues on the agenda of the OIC”, reiterating complete and unflinching support to “the just cause of Kashmir.”[89] “The meeting reaffirmed the long-standing position of the OIC in support of the Kashmiri people's right to self-determination, the protection of their human rights and settlement of the dispute in accordance with relevant OIC and UN Security Council resolutions.”[90] Praising the OIC’s stand on Kashmir, leading Pakistani English daily The Nation observed “It took the Organisation more than a decade to pledge its support for the right to self-determination of the Kashmiris struggling to liberate themselves from the Indian shackles” and enquired about the causes that “constrained the largest grouping of the Muslim countries to keep mum over this issue for so long.”[91] The new government is already coming under a lot of pressure from various political circles to openly move away from Musharraf government’s policies. On March 27, the fundamentalist Jamat-ud-Dawah, parent organisation of the Laskhar-e-Taiyyaba (LeT) militant group, called upon the Pakistani government to end cease-fire on the Line of Control with India. “Pakistan must end ceasefire with India on Line of Control (LoC) and declare Jihad against New Delhi”, said central leader of Jamat-ud-Dawah, Professor Abdur Rahman Makki in Muzzaffarabad, after offering funeral prayers in absentia of the LeT commander Muhammad Siddique, alias Abu Hamza who has died in a gun battle in the Valley previous week. Criticizing the “pro-India and pro-American” policies of the Musharraf government in the past eight years, Makki alleged that “Kashmir cause suffered a lot because of the weakened Kashmir policy of Musharaff.”[92] The open and defiant congregation ‘came as a big surprise, indicative of a possible relaxation of restriction on militant organisations.’[93] Even before the new ministerial portfolios were announced, Asif Ali Zardari handpicked Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman as the new chairman of Parliamentary Committee for Kashmir.[94] Rehman is known for his pro-Taliban, pro-Kashmir and anti-American views and has been previously accused of helping the Taliban and resistance militants in Kashmir. However, he is a skilled politician and negotiator who could bring much needed skills of delicate balancing and moderation, between various fundamentalist groups and the establishment. During Pervez Musharraf’s early years, Rehman visited India as an envoy to boost the India-Pakistan Peace Process. A suave politician, he has been described as “logical, rational, mild, eloquent and very convincing”, who “won hands down.”[95] Choosing Fazl-ur-Rehman as the new chairman of the Parliamentary Committee for Kashmir is a sign that while Pakistan is willing to engage with India and negotiate, it won’t pursue the US-dictated agenda as done by the Musharraf regime. There is every danger that the Kashmir issue may slowly head for a freeze, unless India comes out with some proposals that can offer tangible movement on the ground. Being a dictator, General Musharraf was insulated against any public criticism and moved ahead with India, departing from his country’s traditional stand. There is a strong feeling in Pakistan and Kashmir that despite the unprecedented flexibility of Pakistan and more than four years of Peace Process, Pakistan was not able to get any concession from India, either for herself or for Kashmiris. This was firmly indicated by Asif Zardari, in his joint press conference with the pro-India Kashmiri leader Mehbooba Mufti, when he reiterated the need to move beyond CBMs and urged for action.[96] With so many problems accrued from the Musharraf regime, the new Pakistani government cannot afford to be seen negotiating with India without any movement on the core issue of Kashmir or gaining some concessions from India. Till then, the rhetoric on Kashmir could get louder and louder which, as the past experience indicates, could get out of hand at some point of time to precipitate into a crisis or in a worst case scenario lead to a war. Despite these complexities and dangers, the Pakistani English daily The Post acknowledges that “there is ... little temptation for Pakistan to make a grab for Kashmir, or for India to invade Pakistan, as the fear of nuclear attack makes adventurism less appealing.”[97] Hoping for a bright future, it prophecies that ‘If the Kashmir dispute is resolved, the people of India and Pakistan can live without trepidation and fear of war.’[98] --------------------------------- [1] The News, Pakistan, 24 March 2008 [2] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 25 March 2008 [3] Global Discourse on Kashmir 2006, published by Kashmir Centre EU, 2007, p.2 [4] Ibid. p.3 [5] Ibid. p.6 [6] Daily Times, Pakistan, 25 September 2005 [7] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 22 February 2008 [8] Hindu, India, 8 October 2007 [9] Daily Times, Pakistan, 19 December 2007 [10] Asian Age, India, 16 March 2008 [11] Pakistan announces Kashmir Day preparations, Associated Press of Pakistan, 25 January 2008; accessed 21 March 2008 [12] Ibid. [13] Daily Times, Pakistan, 28 January 2008 [14] The Nation, Pakistan, 7 February 2008 [15] Ibid. [16] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [17] Daily Times, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [18] Ibid. [19] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008. [20] Ibid. [21] The News, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [22] Ibid. [23] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [24] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 22 December 2007 [25] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 4 January 2008 [26] Ibid. [27] Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 11 February 2008 [28] Kashmir Watch, 26 November 2007; accessed 21 March 2008 [29] Ibid. [30] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 9 December 2007 [31] Report by Hamid Mir, Jang, Pakistan, 21 January 2008 [32] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 25 March 2008 [33] Ibid [34] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 25 March 2008 [35] The Indian Express, India, 27 March 2008 [36] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 25 March 2008 [37] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 19 February 2008 [38] Etela’at, Srinagar, 20 February 2008 [39] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 20 February 2008 [40] Kashmir Watch, 19 February 2008; accessed on 21 March 2008 [41] Etala’at, Srinagar, Srinagar, 20 February 2008 [42] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 22 February 2008 [43] News Agency of Kashmir, 21 February 2008; accessed on 26 March 2008 [44] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 20 February 2008 [45] Kashmir Times, Jammu, 21 February 2008 [46] Kashmir Watch, 19 February 2007; accessed on 25 March 2008 [47] Report by Hamid Mir, Jang, Pakistan, 21 January 2008 [48] Rising Kashmir, 3 March 2008 [49] The Hindu, India, 10 March 2008 [50] Rising Kashmir, 3 March 2008 [51] Ibid. [52] Ibid. [53] Kashmir Watch, 4 March 2008; accessed 25 March 2008 [54] Ibid. [55] Ibid. [56] Kashmir Times, 5 March 2008 [57] Kashmir Times, 4 March 2008 [58] Ibid. [59] Rising Kashmir, 5 March 2008 [60] Ibid. [61] The Hindu, India, 9 March 2008 [62] COAS on Kashmir, editorial, The Nation, 14 March 2008 [63] Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 9 March 2008 [64] The News, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [65] The Nation, Pakistan, 6 February 2008 [66] Election Special, Geo TV, Pakistan, 19 February 2008 [67] Pak Tribune, 24 February 2008; accessed on 25 March 2008 [68] The News, Pakistan, 25 March 2008 [69] Aaj Kamran Khan Saath, Geo TV, Pakistan, 25 March 2008 [70] Pak Tribune, 26 March 2008; accessed 26 March 2008 [71] Greater Kashmir, 28 March 2008 [72] American Impatience, editorial, The Dawn, 27 March 2008 [73] The News, Pakistan, 28 March 2008 [74] Pak Tribune, 13 March 2008; accessed 26 March 2008 [75] Kashmir Watch, 14 March 2008; accessed 25 March 2008 [76] Kayani’s Solidarity with Kashmir Cause, editorial, Pakistan Observer, 14 March 2008 [77] COAS on Kashmir, editorial, The Nation, Pakistan, 14 March 2008 [78] Ibid. [79] Kashmir Cause, editorial, The Post, Pakistan 14 March 2008 [80] General Kayani’s statement on Kashmir is welcome, editorial, Daily Times, Pakistan 14 March 2008 [81] The News, Pakistan, 24 March 2008 [82] Kashmir Watch, 19 December 2007; accessed 23 March 2008 [83] The Nation, Pakistan, 7 February 2008 [84] Times of India, 12 March 2006 [85] Ibid. [86] Kashmir Watch, 19 March 2008; accessed 22 March 2008 [87] Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 20 March 2008 [88] The Tribune, India, 21 March 2008 [89] Arab News, Saudi Arabia, 16 March 2008 [90] Ibid. [91] The Nation, Pakistan 18 March 2008 [92] Rising Kashmir, Srinagar, 28 March 2008 [93] Ibid. [94] Pak Tribune, Pakistan, 21 March 2008 at accessed on 25 March 2008. [95] Fazlur Rehman’s deft political moves, editorial, Daily Times, Pakistan, 21 June 2004 [96] Jang, Pakistan, 29 March 2008; Greater Kashmir, Srinagar, 29 March 2008 [97] Editorial, The Post, Pakistan, 14 March 2008 --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. 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From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Mar 31 20:14:44 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (netEX) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:44:44 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_netEX=3A_calls_a?= =?iso-8859-1?q?nd_deadlines_April_2008?= Message-ID: <20080331164444.DAA6C787.C06405A8@192.168.0.3> netEX: calls, deadlines APRIL 2008 ------------------------------------- [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne newsletter contents calls & deadlines 02 Calls: 2008 deadlines internal 14 Calls: APRIL deadlines external 08 Calls: ongoing external/internal ------------------------------------- Calls & deadlines ---> ------------------------------------------------ 2008 deadlines: internal ------------------------------------------------ 30 June CologneOFF IV - 4th Cologne Online Film Festival http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=238 30 November SoundLAB VI - soundart for soundPOOL - sound compositions - a challenge for imagination http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=242 ------------------------------------------------ APRIL 2008 deadlines: external ------------------------------------------------ 30 April Performance Proposals - Tuned City http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=264 30 April EMM 2008 - International Festival of Shortfilm and Documentary Padova/Italy http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=228 30 April 3rd Int. FIlm Festival on Water Bangalore/India http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=196 25 April Rushes Soho Shortfilm Festival London/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=204 21 April HAIP’08 Festival Ljubljana/Slovenia http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=265 15 April Call for researchers - Jan Van Eyck Academie Maastricht/NL http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=237 15 April Cyborg Film Festival /Italy http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=195 15 April Biological Imperative - Gallery Aferro Newark/NJ - USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=177 14 April International Festival for Art, Technology and Locality Yokohama/Japan http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=239 11 April Experimental Film Festival Onion City Chicago/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=207 10 April 9th SIFF -Seoul International Film Festival 2008 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=250 1 April Low & No Budget Film Festival Heilbronn/Germany 2008 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=194 1 April Transhift 2008 - Knoxville/Tennesse (USA) http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=235 1 April Tabor Shortfilm Festival 2008 (Tabor/Croatia) http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=256 ----------------------------------------------- Ongoing calls: external/internal ----------------------------------------------- --->OUTCASTING - web based screenings -->Projects for FILE LABO Sao Paulo/Brazil -->Films and video screenings Sioux City (USA) -->Laisle screenings Rio de Janeiro/Brazil -->Videos for Helsinki based video gallery - 00130 Gallery -->Web based works for 00130 Gallery Helsinki/Finland -->Project: Repetition as a Model for Progression by Marianne Holm Hansen -->Raw Video New York/NY (USA) -->US webjournal Atomic Unicorn seeks netart and video art for coming editions and more deadlines on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?page_id=4 ----------------------------------------------- NetEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net # calls in the external section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=3 # calls in the internal section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=1 ----------------------------------------------- # This newsletter is also released on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=9 # NetEx - networked experiences http://netex.nmartproject.net is a free information service powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for Art and New Media from Cologne/Germany # info & contact: info (at) nmartproject.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From logos.theword at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 11:10:44 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:10:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] ASMI - an evening of contemporary art In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60803272235g2771bbdaxaa1d8ccb00f2f031@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60803272235g2771bbdaxaa1d8ccb00f2f031@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60803272240g34f03936p7a3c16518e0bceb7@mail.gmail.com> *Veena Basavarajaiah* a Bangalore based contemporary dancer and choreographer who is the recipient of the Young achievers Special mention award 2007 would be presenting * 'ASMI' , *an evening of contemporary dance in collaboration with dancers, musicians, writers and theatre artistes of Bangalore. The Performance includes the following: - '*Finding Ri'*, a duet with renowned Musician *Praveen.D.Rao*. A musician's search for identity with his music and a dancers search for her's through her body. Finding Ri is an elaborate musical piece exploring the intricacies of various raagas and emotions with movements drawing inspiration from Bharatnatyam and Contemporary dance. - *Move-mess : Mu-jinx*: collaboration with renowned Martial artist *Ranjan Mullaratt* experimenting with voices and sounds and different textures of movement of kalari. With an elaborate work of lights and sound it aims at projecting the playful interaction between the performers. - Journeys of the Body - I : Walking/Remembering' Journeys of the Body is a performance series that attempts to use performance and various media to explore the life and work of Akkamahadevi. It will attempt a conversation between her and us, her world and ours. Walking/Remembering looks at her an an archetype of the human quest for transcendence, and bases itself on her intense engagement with the body. It is a myth of travelling to faraway places in order to find our inner home, a fable of the body and its memories. This live art piece is designed by theStillDancer, the performance persona of poet and theatremaker Arka Mukhopadhyay. - *Blue*: a solo dance piece performed by Veena, choreographed by *Mayuri Upadhyay*, dancer and director of *Nritarutya* dance Company. A piece based on love and how Krishna who is an epitome of love is framed beautifully and confined within a limited boundaries. It explores the psyche of someone in love transcending limitations of age and gender and their constant struggle to break free and explore beyond the contours decided by this world. The light design and execution for the whole evening is by *Ranjan Kamath -*theatre artist and film maker. The artistes of the evening include *theStillDancer* (performance artist and theatremaker), *Parshwanath Upadhye * (Dancer & Singer) & *Suhas Kaundinya* (Flautist) ASMI is supported by *Kalari** Academy of performing Arts, Bangalore* The performance is scheduled to be held at *Alliance Francaise de Bangalore *on the *12th of April 2008* at *7: 30 pm*. The entry fee is Rs. 100/- available @ Kalari Academy of Performing Arts, Alliance Francaise & Gangarams. Contact Details: 9945155995, 9880675417 Email. veenatrupti at yahoo.co.in -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements